From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 01:32:10 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:32:10 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base Message-ID: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/24163/1162/ -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 01:36:42 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: <49D2C41A.9080305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, James Knott wrote: > http://www.itwire.com/content/view/24163/1162/ Dateline: 01 April 2009 -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 02:54:01 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:54:01 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc@mail.gmail.com> Lol, Too funny, first april fools joke I've seen :) On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, James Knott wrote: > >> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/24163/1162/ > > ? ? Dateline: ?01 April 2009 > > -- > ? Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ? ? ? ? > ? ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== > ? Author: > ? Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 03:06:07 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:06:07 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570903312006n5c50579bl40082491e7c7c89d@mail.gmail.com> Oh, that's nothing...read this one: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/31/breaking-internet-explorer-81-eagle-eyes-leaked/ -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 03:08:42 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:08:42 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090331230842.4c621fd5@teksavvy.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Lol, > > Too funny, first april fools joke I've seen :) Watch out for the 'Warner Bros buys Pirate Bay'? ;) -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 04:49:59 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 00:49:59 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: <20090331230842.4c621fd5-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc@mail.gmail.com> <20090331230842.4c621fd5@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570903312149ube64439v8728b5f05afa01b1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 23:08, JoeHill wrote: > > Watch out for the 'Warner Bros buys Pirate Bay'? ;) > > -- > J You mean this..?!: Warner Brothers Inc. announced today that it has agreed to acquire The Pirate Bay, the consumer media company for people to share original copies through a Web experience, for $13.37 billion in a stock-for-stock transaction. Following the acquisition, The Pirate Bay will operate independently to preserve its successful brand and passionate community. The acquisition combines one of the largest and fastest growing online entertainment communities with Warner Bros?s expertise in organizing information and creating new models for advertising on the Internet. The combined companies will focus on providing a better, more comprehensive experience for users interested in downloading, watching and sharing content, and will ofer new opportunities for professional content owners to distribute their work to reach a vast new audience. ?The Pirate Bay team has built an exciting and powerful media platform that complements Warner Bros?s mission to organize the world?s information and make it universally accessible and useful,? said Jim Kjeyzer, Chief Executive Officer of Warner Bros. ?Our companies share similar values; we both always put our users first and are committed to innovating to improve their experience. Together, we are natural partners to ofer a compelling media entertainment service to users, content owners and advertisers.? ?Our community has played a vital role in changing the way that people consume media, creating a new hip culture. By joining forces with Warner Bros, we can beneft from its global reach and technology leadership to deliver a more comprehensive entertainment experience for our users and to create new opportunities for our partners,? said Anakata, CEO and Co-Founder of The Pirate Bay. ?I?m confdent that with this partnership we?ll have the fexibility and resources needed to pursue our goal of building the next-generation platform for serving media worldwide.? When the acquisition is complete, The Pirate Bay will retain its distinct brand identity, strengthening and complementing Warner Bros?s own fast-growing video business. The Pirate Bay will continue to be based in Stockholm, Sweden, and all The Pirate Bay employees will remain with the company. With Warner Bros?s technology, advertiser relationships and global reach, The Pirate Bay will continue to build on its success as one of the world?s most popular services for online entertainment. The number of Warner Bros shares to be issued in the transaction will be determined based on the 30-day average closing price two trading days prior to the completion of the acquisition. Both companies have approved the transaction, which is subject to customary closing conditions and is expected to close in the third quarter of 2009. The company will host a conference and webcast at 130 p.m. Pacifc Time (430 p.m. Eastern Time) tomorrow to discuss the acquisition. To access the conference, please email scott.rowe-4ULFWaVYfxzlKS8GlytQkw at public.gmane.org A replay of the will be available until midnight Tursday, April 16 at various interwebs internationally. Confrmation code for the replay is 1337101. About Warner Bros Inc. Warner Bros?s innovative movie flm technologies connect millions of people around the world with information every day. Founded in 1918 by small time crooks Harry and Albert, Warner Bros today is a top web property in all major global markets. Warner Bros?s targeted film movie program provides businesses of all sizes with measurable results, while enhancing the overall web experience for users. Warner Bros is headquartered in Hollywood with offices throughout the Americas, Europes and Asias. For more information, visit www.WarnerBros.com. About The Pirate Bay Founded in February 2003, The Pirate Bay is a consumer media company for people to share original copies worldwide through a Web experience. The Pirate Bay allows people to easily upload and share torrents on www.ThePirateBay.org and across the Internet through websites, blogs, and e-mail. The Pirate Bay currently delivers more than 1 million torrents every day with 65,000 new torrents uploaded daily and it has quickly become the leading destination on the Internet for video entertainment. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 1 16:13:33 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:13:33 -0400 Subject: iTWire - Internet Explorer 9 to use Mozilla's Firefox code base In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570903312149ube64439v8728b5f05afa01b1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49D2C41A.9080305@rogers.com> <32f6a8880903311954l5794bb06l9bc515d6c973ffbc@mail.gmail.com> <20090331230842.4c621fd5@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570903312149ube64439v8728b5f05afa01b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090401121333.3c9873f7@teksavvy.com> Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 23:08, JoeHill wrote: > > > > Watch out for the 'Warner Bros buys Pirate Bay'? ;) > > > > -- > > J > > You mean this..?!: > > Warner Brothers Inc. announced today that it has agreed to acquire The > Pirate Bay, the consumer media company for people to share original > copies through a Web experience, for $13.37 billion in a > stock-for-stock transaction. Following the acquisition, The Pirate Bay > will operate independently to preserve its successful brand and > passionate community. > > The acquisition combines one of the largest and fastest growing online > entertainment communities with Warner Bros?s expertise in organizing > information and creating new models for advertising on the Internet. > The combined companies will focus on providing a better, more > comprehensive experience for users interested in downloading, watching > and sharing content, and will ofer new opportunities for professional > content owners to distribute their work to reach a vast new audience. Yep. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 2 15:47:24 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:47:24 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation Message-ID: Morning, I have noticed that the ifconfig tool is being deprecated and will be replaced by the ip tool. However, so far I have not been able to find a way of getting all the information generated by ifconfig from ip tool. By that I mean details like packets received, packet sent out, collision statistics and sent/receive errors are impossible to get from /sbin/ip. Now, is that a tool limitation or is it me who have not done my homework well? Second, I have noticed one details that is not straight forward to understand as I thought - frame. When I googled, I got the feeling its a flag raised when the NIC can not detect connectivity. That is not the case though as none of the network based seem affected. It could also be the frame is larger than 1500, but I have not seen it in any other system. It make no sense to assert that only one system is experiencing giant frames. That got me thinking that I may actually be misinterpretation what the word frame mean and therefore the post. Any idea why the frame counter keep going up? Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:14:22:3E:8F:79 inet addr:172.16.1.139 Bcast:172.16.3.255 Mask:255.255.252.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:37156044 errors:172679 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:172678 TX packets:54908637 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:313517308 (298.9 MiB) TX bytes:2734438868 (2.5 GiB) Base address:0xecc0 Memory:fe6e0000-fe700000 - Interesting dmesg information * e1000: eth0: e1000_watchdog: NIC Link is Up 1000 Mbps Full Duplex * Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver - version 6.0.54-k2-NAPI The nic card is: lspci output * 06:07.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corp. 82541GI/PI Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 05) ethtool output Settings for eth0: Supported ports: [ TP ] Supported link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full 1000baseT/Full Supports auto-negotiation: Yes Advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full 1000baseT/Full Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes Speed: 1000Mb/s Duplex: Full Port: Twisted Pair PHYAD: 0 Transceiver: internal Auto-negotiation: on Supports Wake-on: umbg Wake-on: d Current message level: 0x00000007 (7) Link detected: yes Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 2 16:00:30 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:00:30 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904020900w171bd54era5c6ee88b95fddd6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:47 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > I have noticed that the ifconfig tool is being deprecated and will be > replaced by the ip tool. However, so far I have not been able to find > a way of getting all the information generated by ifconfig from ip > tool. By that I mean details like packets received, packet sent out, > collision statistics and sent/receive errors are impossible to get > from /sbin/ip. ?Now, is that a tool limitation or is it me who have > not done my homework well? I've only recently begun using ip and haven't done any homework on it yet; ifconfig's been a friend for a long time though. On the surface it seems to me that ip is limited when it comes to describing connections at-a-glance so I continue to use ifconfig. Why is ifconfig being deprecated? -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 2 16:41:38 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:41:38 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Frame" means framing error. On Ethernet, this can be a number of different things. If a packet is started sooner than allowed by the mandatory Inter Packet Gap, you have a framing error. If the packet is longer than the maximum allowed length, you have a framing error. If the packet is not a multiple of eight bit times in lenght, you have a framing error. There are probably other conditions as well - anything that isn't a valid ethernet frame will cause this error. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:47 AM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Morning, > > I have noticed that the ifconfig tool is being deprecated and will be > replaced by the ip tool. However, so far I have not been able to find > a way of getting all the information generated by ifconfig from ip > tool. By that I mean details like packets received, packet sent out, > collision statistics and sent/receive errors are impossible to get > from /sbin/ip. Now, is that a tool limitation or is it me who have > not done my homework well? > > Second, I have noticed one details that is not straight forward to > understand as I thought - frame. When I googled, I got the feeling its > a flag raised when the NIC can not detect connectivity. That is not > the case though as none of the network based seem affected. It could > also be the frame is larger than 1500, but I have not seen it in any > other system. It make no sense to assert that only one system is > experiencing giant frames. > > That got me thinking that I may actually be misinterpretation what the > word frame mean and therefore the post. Any idea why the frame counter > keep going up? > > Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:14:22:3E:8F:79 > inet addr:172.16.1.139 Bcast:172.16.3.255 Mask:255.255.252.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:37156044 errors:172679 dropped:0 overruns:0 > frame:172678 > TX packets:54908637 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:313517308 (298.9 MiB) TX bytes:2734438868 (2.5 GiB) > Base address:0xecc0 Memory:fe6e0000-fe700000 > > > - Interesting dmesg information > * e1000: eth0: e1000_watchdog: NIC Link is Up 1000 Mbps Full Duplex > * Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver - version 6.0.54-k2-NAPI > > The nic card is: > lspci output > * 06:07.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corp. 82541GI/PI Gigabit Ethernet > Controller (rev 05) > > ethtool output > > Settings for eth0: > Supported ports: [ TP ] > Supported link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full > 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full > 1000baseT/Full > Supports auto-negotiation: Yes > Advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full > 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full > 1000baseT/Full > Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes > Speed: 1000Mb/s > Duplex: Full > Port: Twisted Pair > PHYAD: 0 > Transceiver: internal > Auto-negotiation: on > Supports Wake-on: umbg > Wake-on: d > Current message level: 0x00000007 (7) > Link detected: yes > > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 2 22:16:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:16:53 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 11:47:24AM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning, > > I have noticed that the ifconfig tool is being deprecated and will be > replaced by the ip tool. However, so far I have not been able to find > a way of getting all the information generated by ifconfig from ip > tool. By that I mean details like packets received, packet sent out, > collision statistics and sent/receive errors are impossible to get > from /sbin/ip. Now, is that a tool limitation or is it me who have > not done my homework well? ip -s link For example: # ifconfig eth0;ip -s link show dev eth0 eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:1A:64:D4:9F:18 inet addr:10.128.10.2 Bcast:10.255.255.255 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: fe80::21a:64ff:fed4:9f18/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:755756697 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:570504212 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:871419712393 (811.5 GiB) TX bytes:316608994072 (294.8 GiB) Interrupt:16 Memory:ce000000-ce012100 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 1000 link/ether 00:1a:64:d4:9f:18 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff RX: bytes packets errors dropped overrun mcast 3836318601 755756697 0 0 0 13 TX: bytes packets errors dropped carrier collsns 3076381464 570504212 0 0 0 0 Not sure why ip is showing 32bit truncated values for the bytes. Possible because I am using a 32bit binary with a 64bit kernel. Adding a second -s gives you: 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 1000 link/ether 00:1a:64:d4:9f:18 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff RX: bytes packets errors dropped overrun mcast 3836494484 755758605 0 0 0 13 RX errors: length crc frame fifo missed 0 0 0 0 0 TX: bytes packets errors dropped carrier collsns 3076741152 570505260 0 0 0 0 TX errors: aborted fifo window heartbeat 0 0 0 0 > Second, I have noticed one details that is not straight forward to > understand as I thought - frame. When I googled, I got the feeling its > a flag raised when the NIC can not detect connectivity. That is not > the case though as none of the network based seem affected. It could > also be the frame is larger than 1500, but I have not seen it in any > other system. It make no sense to assert that only one system is > experiencing giant frames. To a large extent, the errors have whatever meaning the driver gives them. Not all chips report all different types of errors seperately, so the driver may or may not be able to detect everything. Sometimes the chip reports errors that have no flag and the driver ixes it in with another error type. In general though, crc errors are just that, packets with a crc checksum that didn't match the packet. So it get messed up somewhere. missed is whenever the network hardware for some reason could not receive a packet because it was out of buffer space or the pci bus was busy or whatever else could cause it to not keep up with incoming data. I have never seen fifo error. overrun I believe are when packets are longer than permitted. frame errors simply means there was something wrong with the ethernet packet that meant it was simply not a valid ethernet packet, which is sometimes caused by truncated packets. dropped tends to be a packet that was received by the chip, but thrown away, or possible thrown away by the driver for whatever reason. Not sure I have ever seen one. As you can see though, ip -s link shows a lot more info that ifconfig ever did. It also gets it through netlink, rather than trying to parse /proc files, which is a lot more efficient and allows future extensions. I will be happy to see ifconfig go. > That got me thinking that I may actually be misinterpretation what the > word frame mean and therefore the post. Any idea why the frame counter > keep going up? > > Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:14:22:3E:8F:79 > inet addr:172.16.1.139 Bcast:172.16.3.255 Mask:255.255.252.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:37156044 errors:172679 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:172678 > TX packets:54908637 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:313517308 (298.9 MiB) TX bytes:2734438868 (2.5 GiB) > Base address:0xecc0 Memory:fe6e0000-fe700000 Well almost certainly something on your network is unhappy. It may be that you have a device on your network sending packets your network card thinks are invalid. Maybe someone is using jumbo frames, or non 802.3 frames. In any case your card is treating them as errors and throwing them away most likely. > - Interesting dmesg information > * e1000: eth0: e1000_watchdog: NIC Link is Up 1000 Mbps Full Duplex > * Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver - version 6.0.54-k2-NAPI > > The nic card is: > lspci output > * 06:07.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corp. 82541GI/PI Gigabit Ethernet > Controller (rev 05) > > ethtool output > > Settings for eth0: > Supported ports: [ TP ] > Supported link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full > 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full > 1000baseT/Full > Supports auto-negotiation: Yes > Advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full > 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full > 1000baseT/Full > Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes > Speed: 1000Mb/s > Duplex: Full > Port: Twisted Pair > PHYAD: 0 > Transceiver: internal > Auto-negotiation: on > Supports Wake-on: umbg > Wake-on: d > Current message level: 0x00000007 (7) > Link detected: yes -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 3 02:28:31 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:28:31 -0400 Subject: multiseat x, -sharevts, and suspend/hibernate Message-ID: <1238725711.17604.1416.camel@localhost> hi folks, I'm very close to getting a new multiseat system working, with 2 nvidia cards, using the closed-source drivers. I've followed chris Tyler's ubuntu guide, and a few others, with te result that I have a perfectly functioning xorg.conf, gdm, and sound. GDM runs 2 servers; one attaches to Layout0, which uses only Screen0 (my lcd monitor), while the other attaches to Layout1, which uses only Screen 1 (my TV-out). login works fine and all that. The only thing that's missing now is the capacity to suspend to ram or disk while both gdm servers are up and running. The issue seems to be with the "-sharevts" switch that (from what I can tell) needs to be passed to the x server in order to ensure that both X sessions are visible at the same time. Without that switch, one gdm server seems to run on VT7, and the other on VT9; if you switch from one vt to the other, you can watch the two screens flicker on and off, but you can never see both at the same time. Unfortunately, though, that option seems to make suspending/hibernating impossible, both to ram and to disk, at least on my ubuntu jaunty system. Gnome-power-manager shows the suspend & hibernate options, but neither of htem actually produces a suspend event. If I try to trigger one manually using pm-[suspend|hibernate], the suspend goes ok, but the x sessions are dead on resume, and cna't be revivified. So i'm wondering: does anyone out there have a multiseat system that actually can suspend and hibernate successfully? And if so, do you use the -sharevts switch when starting X, or do you have some other trick for getting the x sessions to display simultaneiously? Look forward to hearing your advice! thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 3 15:41:23 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:41:23 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <20090402221653.GF3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Sorensen, Excellent. Can't be more satisfied. You really know your stuff! > ip -s link > > For example: > > # ifconfig eth0;ip -s link show dev eth0 > eth0 ? ? ?Link encap:Ethernet ?HWaddr 00:1A:64:D4:9F:18 > ? ? ? ? ?inet addr:10.128.10.2 ?Bcast:10.255.255.255 ?Mask:255.0.0.0 > ? ? ? ? ?inet6 addr: fe80::21a:64ff:fed4:9f18/64 Scope:Link > ? ? ? ? ?UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST ?MTU:1500 ?Metric:1 > ? ? ? ? ?RX packets:755756697 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > ? ? ? ? ?TX packets:570504212 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > ? ? ? ? ?collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > ? ? ? ? ?RX bytes:871419712393 (811.5 GiB) ?TX bytes:316608994072 (294.8 GiB) > ? ? ? ? ?Interrupt:16 Memory:ce000000-ce012100 > > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 1000 > ? ?link/ether 00:1a:64:d4:9f:18 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ? ?RX: bytes ?packets ?errors ?dropped overrun mcast > ? ?3836318601 755756697 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 13 > ? ?TX: bytes ?packets ?errors ?dropped carrier collsns > ? ?3076381464 570504212 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 > > Not sure why ip is showing 32bit truncated values for the bytes. > Possible because I am using a 32bit binary with a 64bit kernel. Could be, it look as below from the same host I was investigating yesterday for comparison. 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 1000 link/ether 00:14:22:1e:8f:69 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff RX: bytes packets errors dropped overrun mcast 1258082303 75284797 172679 0 0 388025 TX: bytes packets errors dropped carrier collsns 1264535533 109636496 0 0 0 0 > > Adding a second -s gives you: > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 1000 > ? ?link/ether 00:1a:64:d4:9f:18 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ? ?RX: bytes ?packets ?errors ?dropped overrun mcast > ? ?3836494484 755758605 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 13 > ? ?RX errors: length ?crc ? ? frame ? fifo ? ?missed > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? ?0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 > ? ?TX: bytes ?packets ?errors ?dropped carrier collsns > ? ?3076741152 570505260 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 > ? ?TX errors: aborted fifo ? ?window ?heartbeat > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? ?0 ? ? ? 0 ? ? ? 0 > > > To a large extent, the errors have whatever meaning the driver gives them. > Not all chips report all different types of errors seperately, so the > driver may or may not be able to detect everything. ?Sometimes the chip > reports errors that have no flag and the driver ixes it in with another > error type. > > In general though, crc errors are just that, packets with a crc checksum > that didn't match the packet. ?So it get messed up somewhere. ?missed is > whenever the network hardware for some reason could not receive a packet > because it was out of buffer space or the pci bus was busy or whatever > else could cause it to not keep up with incoming data. ?I have never seen > fifo error. ?overrun I believe are when packets are longer than permitted. > frame errors simply means there was something wrong with the ethernet > packet that meant it was simply not a valid ethernet packet, which is > sometimes caused by truncated packets. ?dropped tends to be a packet > that was received by the chip, but thrown away, or possible thrown away > by the driver for whatever reason. ?Not sure I have ever seen one. > > As you can see though, ip -s link shows a lot more info that ifconfig > ever did. ?It also gets it through netlink, rather than trying to parse > /proc files, which is a lot more efficient and allows future extensions. > I will be happy to see ifconfig go. > It sure will, if you look at Red Hat documentation, you will notice they rarely mention ifconfig, its always the ip tool. So I expect at sometime in future they will pull it out of their default install. Just as dig replaced host. And as you mentioned, it looks like there is a good technical reason behind it. >> >> Link encap:Ethernet ?HWaddr 00:14:22:3E:8F:79 >> ? ? ? ? ? inet addr:172.16.1.139 ?Bcast:172.16.3.255 ?Mask:255.255.252.0 >> ? ? ? ? ? UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST ?MTU:1500 ?Metric:1 >> ? ? ? ? ? RX packets:37156044 errors:172679 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:172678 >> ? ? ? ? ? TX packets:54908637 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 >> ? ? ? ? ? collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 >> ? ? ? ? ? RX bytes:313517308 (298.9 MiB) ?TX bytes:2734438868 (2.5 GiB) >> ? ? ? ? ? Base address:0xecc0 Memory:fe6e0000-fe700000 > > Well almost certainly something on your network is unhappy. ?It may > be that you have a device on your network sending packets your network > card thinks are invalid. ?Maybe someone is using jumbo frames, or non > 802.3 frames. ?In any case your card is treating them as errors and > throwing them away most likely. Hmm, quite a lot of possibilities here. Buts this is good information to have while looking at it. Wonder if its there is any errors with the connection from the switch perspective. Kind of a pain to follow the cabling and will do that later. Thanks a lot again. William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 17:05:07 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:05:07 -0500 Subject: Wayback Message-ID: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php http://www.computerhistory.org/ Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) -- [ Teddy David Mills System Administrator TMIS.ca ] [ Teddys Virtual Space of Sciences, Technology ] [ Music, Media, Linux and Open Source ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 17:18:05 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? Message-ID: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> hi all, I want to quickly play with some numeric values in an xml file (xbmc's Fontxml files, of which there are often a number in any given skin). what I need to do is find lines like: 13 and augment or decrement the values by a set number. so i'd like a command addsize, like this: addsize 4 font.xml that would change the above to 17 someone out there actually understand how to use perl, and willing to show me how to do this? thanks much, matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 18:28:46 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090404182846.GA17341@yam.witteman.ca> On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 01:18:05PM -0400, matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > I want to quickly play with some numeric values in an xml file (xbmc's > Fontxml files, of which there are often a number in any given skin). > what I need to do is find lines like: > 13 and augment or decrement the values by a set number. so > i'd like a command addsize, like this: > > addsize 4 font.xml > > that would change the above to 17 > > someone out there actually understand how to use perl, and willing to > show me how to do this? thanks much, My PerlFu is very rusty, but if you were to ask this question on perlmonks.org, you'd get an answer pretty quickly. If you are not wedded to Perl, there are other choices. In Python, it might look like this: input file: 13 Python code: #!/usr/bin/python import xml.etree.ElementTree as et xmlobject = et.parse("in.xml") for size in xmlobject.getiterator("size"): size.text = str(int(size.text) + 4) outfile = open("out.xml","w") xmlobject.write(outfile) output file: 17 I hope that helps! -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 19:23:54 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:23:54 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: <49D79343.1000900-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49D7B3CA.40408@rogers.com> teddymills wrote: > http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php > http://www.computerhistory.org/ > > > Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) > > > My first computer was an IMSAI 8080, which I bought in Nov. 1976. It came as a kit which consisted of bare boards and bags of components. Assembling it required a *LOT* of soldering. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 19:30:25 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 15:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: <49D79343.1000900-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: | From: teddymills | http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php Nice. Must resist reading it all. | Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) Well, the IMSAI 8080 was an improved copy of the Altair 8080 (I have an Altair). Drew used to use an IMSAI. Do you mean the Osborne 1 portable? It was not a laptop. I have a Kaypro II, which is an improved copy of the O1. I like the Ferranti Mercury brochure http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Ferranti/Ferranti.Mercury.1956.102646224.pdf They used 1k bit core arrays for memory. Apparently the system has 44 so about 5.5KiB (1k words, with parity). A word can hold one number or two "orders" (instructions). There is a drum that can hold about 16k words. All normal arithmetic is apparently floating point. An add takes 180 microseconds. Index register ("b-line") operations take only 60 microseconds. This was a successor to the Ferranti/Manchester Mark I an I*. The second computer at the U of T was the FERUT, a Mark I (variant?) I think. The first one was home made. The FERUT predated core memory: it used Williams Tubes for fast memory (b-lines, accumulator). I *think* that it used a drum for main memory but it might have been a mercury delay line -- I just don't remember. This computer was probably housed in the SF half of the building we meet in, but I don't know. See, for example, page 43 of http://invention.smithsonian.org/downloads/fa_cohc_abstracts_e-g.pdf Gotleib mentioned to me that he knew Turing from the time he was in England preparing for the FERUT. Another interesting Ferut person is J. N. P. Hume. http://www2.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/85.279227 Among other things, he and Ivey were the first hosts of The Nature of Things. He was the Master of Massey College after Roberston Davies (if I remember correctly). This looks to be a nice history of computing in the early days at the U of T. http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~williams/History_web_site/World%20map%20first%20page/Canada/a2004.pdf -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 19:55:08 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:55:08 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: <49D79343.1000900-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49D7BB1C.1020006@rogers.com> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayback_machine ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 19:58:43 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:58:43 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49D7BBF3.5070703@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: teddymills > > | http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php > > Nice. Must resist reading it all. > > | Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) > > Well, the IMSAI 8080 was an improved copy of the Altair 8080 (I have > an Altair). Drew used to use an IMSAI. > > Do you mean the Osborne 1 portable? It was not a laptop. I have a > Kaypro II, which is an improved copy of the O1. > The Osborne was referred to as a "luggable", in that it was similar in size, shape and weight to a portable sewing machine. Others called them "arm stretchers". ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 4 19:59:19 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:59:19 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: <49D79343.1000900-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49D7BC17.8020104@rogers.com> teddymills wrote: > http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php > http://www.computerhistory.org/ > > > Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) > > > My first computer was an IMSAI 8080, which I bought in Nov. 1976. It came as a kit which consisted of bare boards and bags of components. Assembling it required a *LOT* of soldering. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 02:50:06 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:50:06 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49D81C5E.1080709@alteeve.com> matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > hi all, > > I want to quickly play with some numeric values in an xml file (xbmc's > Fontxml files, of which there are often a number in any given skin). > what I need to do is find lines like: > 13 and augment or decrement the values by a set number. so > i'd like a command addsize, like this: > > addsize 4 font.xml > > that would change the above to 17 > > someone out there actually understand how to use perl, and willing to > show me how to do this? thanks much, > > matt > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists I am not sure if this is what you're looking for, but at this hour on a Saturday it's a minor miracle I can do anything. :) ---------- #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; # Can read this from ARGV if you wish my $inc=4; # Can read this from a file, if you wish my $source=q| 4 13 20 25 |; # Show what I am starting with, to follow along. print "> source: [$source], increment: [$inc]\n"; # Loop through my source, pulling each matching XML element out. foreach my $xml ($source=~/\d+<\/size>/g) { # Make a copy for the later regex. my $old_xml=$xml; # This is messy, but in short, 'split' returns ("", $num), the # (...)[1] simply returns the second element from the split and # adds the increment value in one line. my $num=((split/(\d+)<\/size>/, $xml)[1])+$inc; # Modify my current XML element with the new string. $xml=~s/(\d+)<\/size>/$num<\/size>/g; # And now replace my old XML element with my incremented one in # the source. $source=~s/$old_xml/$xml/s; } # Show that we're done. print "< source: [$source]\n"; exit(0); ---------- This may need tweaking to be more flexible with your source XML formatting, but hopefully it'll get you started. Sorry, I wasn't able to do the math in-line, but it certainly may be possible with the right magical mix of match-stick-foo. madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 03:08:10 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Apr 2009, matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > I want to quickly play with some numeric values in an xml file (xbmc's > Fontxml files, of which there are often a number in any given skin). what I > need to do is find lines like: > 13 and augment or decrement the values by a set number. so i'd > like a command addsize, like this: > > addsize 4 font.xml > > that would change the above to 17 > > someone out there actually understand how to use perl, and willing to show me > how to do this? thanks much, It's simpler with awk than perl: awk -v add=$1 '/[0-9]+<\/size>/ { n = $0 gsub( /[^0-9]/,"",n) gsub( /[0-9]+/, n + add) } { print } ' "$2" > tempfile$$ && mv tempfile$$ "$2" -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 03:33:40 2009 From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:33:40 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> > > It's simpler with awk than perl: > > awk -v add=$1 '/[0-9]+<\/size>/ { > n = $0 > gsub( /[^0-9]/,"",n) > gsub( /[0-9]+/, n + add) } > { print } > ' "$2" > tempfile$$ && mv tempfile$$ "$2" > Them is fighting words. [richarddice ~]$ cat input.xml 13 [richarddice ~]$ perl -pe "s/(\d+)<\/size>/'' . (\$1 + 4) . '<\/size>'/e" input.xml 17 "perl -e" means "execute the following perl code from the shell command line" "perl -p" means "wrap the following perl code in an implicit 'while (<>) { ... } continue { print; }' block" Adding them together gives "perl -pe". One way to save your newly-modified output is with shell STDOUT redirection: [richarddice ~]$ perl -pe "s/(\d+)<\/size>/'' . (\$1 + 4) . '<\/size>'/e" input.xml > output.xml But if you wanted to be hardcore you could use "perl -i", which is in-place file editing. Again combining perl invocation flags, you would get "perl -pie". (Uuummm... pie!) The /e suffix on the s/// substitution construct allows the evaluation of the math in-place. Note that I had to escape the $1 to make it \$1 in the above command line example, lest the shell mangle it. (This took me much longer to figure out than the actual Perl one-liner.) If you do this in the confines of a program then it's not needed: [richarddice ~]$ cat ./regex_math.pl #!/usr/bin/perl -p use warnings; use strict; s/(\d+)<\/size>/"" . ($1+4) . "<\/size>"/e; [richarddice ~]$ perl ./regex_math.pl input.xml 17 Personally, of the approaches I've seen so far I like the Python one, as it cares about the XML structure and doesn't just blindly chop into the text of the file. I could probably dig up an equivalent Perl module to "import" to do the same thing, but it was just too much of a delight to use -p and s///e in the same place to pass up the opportunity. Cheers, - Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 04:03:24 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 00:03:24 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> Richard Dice wrote: > s/(\d+)<\/size>/"" . ($1+4) . "<\/size>"/e; Grah! So 'e' was the magic... I stand humbled before the match-stick-master. :D Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 04:49:19 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 00:49:19 -0400 Subject: Workaround for an annoying Firefox "feature" in *nix Message-ID: <20090405044919.GA14760@waltdnes.org> In the old days, we had to manually type in the program name to use for "helper applications". Nowadays, Windows and Mac standards seem to have taken over. Big brother knows what good for you, and you can only use an annoying file-picker dialogue. What's even worse is that the dialog *FORCIBLY DE-REFERENCES SYMLINKS*. I download a specific CSV file from the web regularly with Firefox. When I first tried downloading it, I was asked which program to use. I pointed the file picker at /usr/bin/gnumeric which was a symlink that pointed to /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 But because Firefox is so bleeping "user friendly", it de-referenced the symlink to /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 Fast-forward a few weeks. A regular Gentoo update bumps the version to gnumeric-1.8.4 and when I tried to download the CSV file, Firefox complained that the helper app (/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3) did not exist. Well... like... dohhh. I went through the rigamarole with the file picker dialogue. And again, it de-referenced the symlink, this time to /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.4 This annoyed me enough to make me look deeper. With the help of Google I found https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&id=176486 I noticed the rant in comment #46, and threw in my own at #47 and went off on a wild hunch to hack around it. My hunch appears to work. Here's a quick-n-dirty work-around to the problem... With the help of "grep -r", I found references to to gnumeric-1.8.4 in file mimeTypes.rdf in my user account directory. I... 1) shut down Firefox 2) created a backup of mimeTypes.rdf 3) in mimeTypes.rdf manually edited all occurences of "/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.4" and "/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3" (why was it still around?) down to "/usr/bin/gnumeric". 4) restarted Firefox The app associated with CSV files is now simply "gnumeric". Nothing has blown up. My only complaint now is that I had to hack my way around the bug. I won't know for certain until the next update of gnumeric, but I believe I won't have to re-set the helper app for CSV files. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 15:06:22 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:06:22 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49D8C8EE.6050806@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: teddymills > > | http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/search.php > > Nice. Must resist reading it all. > > | Love that IMSAI 8080 and the Osbourne Laptop :) > > Well, the IMSAI 8080 was an improved copy of the Altair 8080 (I have > an Altair). Drew used to use an IMSAI. > > Do you mean the Osborne 1 portable? It was not a laptop. I have a > Kaypro II, which is an improved copy of the O1. > > I like the Ferranti Mercury brochure > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Ferranti/Ferranti.Mercury.1956.102646224.pdf > > They used 1k bit core arrays for memory. Apparently the system has 44 > so about 5.5KiB (1k words, with parity). A word can hold one number > or two "orders" (instructions). There is a drum that can hold about > 16k words. All normal arithmetic is apparently floating point. An > add takes 180 microseconds. Index register ("b-line") operations take > only 60 microseconds. > Many years ago, I worked on a Teleregister "computer" in the old Toronto Stock Exchange building at 234 Bay St.. This device was built with vacuum tubes and relays. It used a memory drum for data storage and it was "hard wired" programmed. At the TSE, the post boys, on the trading floor (2nd floor) would talk to the operators, located in the basement. The operators would key in the stock info on keyboards. They had huge panels in front of them, displaying all the stocks. The Teleregister system transmitted the stock prices to the brokers. It was later updated to send the data to a Ferranti Packard 6000 computer, which was located on the 1st floor, just off the lobby. Part of my duties back then was to start up this system in the morning and and turn it off at night. To start it, I'd gradually crank up the filament voltage and then a few minutes later I'd start the motor/generator sets, to provide + & - 130V DC power. Incidentally, that system was older than I was. There's a small bit of info on Teleregister "Automatic Quotation Displays" here: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Teleregister/Teleregister.SpecialPurposeSystems.1956.102646324.pdf The numbers in the picture are on "indicators" which were drums with all the digits around the perimeter. The drum would spin to the appropriate position, according to the number of pulses received. I may have one of those indicators here somewhere. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 15:35:21 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 11:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: <49D8C8EE.6050806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> <49D8C8EE.6050806@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | Many years ago, I worked on a Teleregister "computer" in the old Toronto | Stock Exchange building at 234 Bay St.. Interesting. | It was later | updated to send the data to a Ferranti Packard 6000 computer, which was | located on the 1st floor, just off the lobby. The FP6000 is an interesting computer too. It was designed and built in Canada (although there is some dispute about the amount and significance of the British contribution to the design). Very few were sold. The design was copied by Ferranti => ICL in the UK as their quick-as-possible response to IBM's System/360 announcement. It was the basis of the ICL 1900 family which was quite wide-spread in the UK and a few former colonies. Not much takeup elsewhere (including here). The UK folks mostly don't know this connection. (All this is from my memory, which suffers bit-rot.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 17:00:39 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:00:39 -0400 Subject: Wayback In-Reply-To: References: <49D79343.1000900@tmis.ca> <49D8C8EE.6050806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49D8E3B7.1000007@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > (All this is from my memory, which suffers bit-rot.) > Time to buy new drum. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 23:26:11 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:26:11 -0400 Subject: The Temptation of Unstable Message-ID: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd@teksavvy.com> Just looking at a post on Debian Users about someone running Squeeze, and I see they've got XFCE 4.6 available to them, among other things. This is very very tempting. My sources.list is already pointing to Unstable, I just can't bring myself to run the upgrade. I used to use Mandriva, so, you know... ;) I guess what I'm hoping is that someone will convince me to take the rather risky step of updating from Testing to Unstable on my one home machine. Especially if someone's running unstable, I would like to hear about the major and minor pitfalls, if any. Thanks! -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 5 23:33:04 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:33:04 -0400 Subject: The Temptation of Unstable In-Reply-To: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49D93FB0.3020902@utoronto.ca> JoeHill wrote: > Just looking at a post on Debian Users about someone running Squeeze, and I see > they've got XFCE 4.6 available to them, among other things. > > This is very very tempting. My sources.list is already pointing to Unstable, I > just can't bring myself to run the upgrade. I used to use Mandriva, so, you > know... ;) > > I guess what I'm hoping is that someone will convince me to take the rather > risky step of updating from Testing to Unstable on my one home machine. > > Especially if someone's running unstable, I would like to hear about the major > and minor pitfalls, if any. > > Thanks! Check out apt pinning: http://wiki.debian.org/AptPinning Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 00:15:16 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 20:15:16 -0400 Subject: The Temptation of Unstable In-Reply-To: <49D93FB0.3020902-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd@teksavvy.com> <49D93FB0.3020902@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090405201516.7aefea30@teksavvy.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > Just looking at a post on Debian Users about someone running Squeeze, and I > > see they've got XFCE 4.6 available to them, among other things. > > > > This is very very tempting. My sources.list is already pointing to > > Unstable, I just can't bring myself to run the upgrade. I used to use > > Mandriva, so, you know... ;) > > > > I guess what I'm hoping is that someone will convince me to take the rather > > risky step of updating from Testing to Unstable on my one home machine. > > > > Especially if someone's running unstable, I would like to hear about the > > major and minor pitfalls, if any. > > > > Thanks! > > Check out apt pinning: http://wiki.debian.org/AptPinning That looks like what I'm looking for, thanks :-) Now, if I understand the instructions correctly, I should have all the entries I have now in my sources.list, except they will appear twice, once for testing, once for unstable? ie. I should have something like this (I know the line wrap is off due to netiquette): #Testing# deb http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ testing main non-free contrib deb-src http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ testing main non-free contrib deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main deb-src http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main deb http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian testing main contrib non-free restricted deb-src http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian testing main contrib non-free restricted #Unstable# deb http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib deb-src http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib deb http://security.debian.org/ unstable/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ unstable/updates main contrib deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org unstable main deb-src http://www.debian-multimedia.org unstable main deb http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free restricted deb-src http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free restricted Or am I _completely_ getting this wrong? ;) -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 03:58:58 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:58:58 -0400 Subject: The Temptation of Unstable In-Reply-To: <20090405201516.7aefea30-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd@teksavvy.com> <49D93FB0.3020902@utoronto.ca> <20090405201516.7aefea30@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090405235858.1a99a4ea@teksavvy.com> JoeHill wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > JoeHill wrote: > > > Just looking at a post on Debian Users about someone running Squeeze, and > > > I see they've got XFCE 4.6 available to them, among other things. > > > > > > This is very very tempting. My sources.list is already pointing to > > > Unstable, I just can't bring myself to run the upgrade. I used to use > > > Mandriva, so, you know... ;) > > > > > > I guess what I'm hoping is that someone will convince me to take the > > > rather risky step of updating from Testing to Unstable on my one home > > > machine. > > > > > > Especially if someone's running unstable, I would like to hear about the > > > major and minor pitfalls, if any. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Check out apt pinning: http://wiki.debian.org/AptPinning > > That looks like what I'm looking for, thanks :-) > > Now, if I understand the instructions correctly, I should have all the entries > I have now in my sources.list, except they will appear twice, once for > testing, once for unstable? well, musta done it right, because I'm now running Claws 3.7.1 without major incident :) Thanks again! -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 13:34:23 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:34:23 -0400 Subject: Workaround for an annoying Firefox "feature" in *nix In-Reply-To: <20090405044919.GA14760-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405044919.GA14760@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20090406093423.96faa5f3.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 00:49:19 -0400 "Walter Dnes" wrote: > In the old days, we had to manually type in the program name to use > for "helper applications". Nowadays, Windows and Mac standards seem to > have taken over. Big brother knows what good for you, and you can only > use an annoying file-picker dialogue. What's even worse is that the > dialog *FORCIBLY DE-REFERENCES SYMLINKS*. I download a specific CSV > file from the web regularly with Firefox. When I first tried > downloading it, I was asked which program to use. I pointed the file > picker at /usr/bin/gnumeric which was a symlink that pointed to > /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 But because Firefox is so bleeping "user > friendly", it de-referenced the symlink to /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 Walter, When I reference CSV files, I point firefox at /usr/bin/ooffice. This works fine. Could this be a problem with symbolic links? -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 14:55:28 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:55:28 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <49D82D8C.70407-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1239029728.7890.8432.camel@localhost> you guys are awesome! 3 terrific solutions, thanks everyone... matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 16:21:55 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:21:55 -0400 Subject: The Temptation of Unstable In-Reply-To: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405192611.2d0be0cd@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090406162155.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 07:26:11PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > Just looking at a post on Debian Users about someone running Squeeze, and I see > they've got XFCE 4.6 available to them, among other things. > > This is very very tempting. My sources.list is already pointing to Unstable, I > just can't bring myself to run the upgrade. I used to use Mandriva, so, you > know... ;) > > I guess what I'm hoping is that someone will convince me to take the rather > risky step of updating from Testing to Unstable on my one home machine. > > Especially if someone's running unstable, I would like to hear about the major > and minor pitfalls, if any. Well I run unstable on my desktop and mythtv box at home. unstable of course is Sid. Squeeze is the testing release that will be the next stable release. So unstable will occationally break. If it does, it expects you to know enough to fix it if it is really bad. Or at least be willing to wait a day or two for the problem to be resolved. It is pretty rare for something that bad to happen. Usually the main problems are transitions, where half of a new gnome release has made it in, but the other half is still old, and the upgrade simply doesn't know where to go and either refuses to upgrade anything (the good option) or decides to upgrade half and remove the other half (usually not a nice option). The 2.6.29 kernel recently hit unstable, and unfortunately for those using external kernel modules a Makefile for i386 was left out, so you can't compile modules on i386. amd64 and other work fine though. Simple to fix yourself though if you know how. I believe there is a wiki somewhere that shows the current state of debian unstable and has warnings about major problems which can tell you when you probably don't want to do an upgrade. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 16:27:18 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:27:18 -0400 Subject: Niagara Linux Group Message-ID: <1239035238.9055.3552.camel@leon> Hi all, The relatively new Niagara (Ontario) Linux Group meets again tomorrow. Those of you who may be in / around St. Catharines tomorrow should let them know that you are going to drop in. They use meetup.com at the moment and it might require registration. -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Meetup Reminder > Subject: Reminder: "Niagara Linux Users April Meetup" is tomorrow, > Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:00 PM! > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:22:58 -0400 > > Meetup > Meetup Reminder > Niagara Linux Users Meetup > Your group has a Meetup tomorrow! > You still need to RSVP. > What > > > http://www.meetup.com/The-Niagara-Linux-Users-Meetup/calendar/9874099/t/nr1o_grp/ > > > When > > > Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:00 PM > > > Who > > 6 Yes / 2 Maybe > There's still room for 12 more. > > > Where > > J.J. Kapps > 327 Ontario Street > St. Catharines ON L2R 5L3 > 905-685-3307 > > > RSVP Deadline > > Your organizer has set an RSVP > deadline for this event. You have > until April 7, 2009 4:00 PM to > RSVP. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 16:31:31 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:31:31 -0400 Subject: Workaround for an annoying Firefox "feature" in *nix In-Reply-To: <20090405044919.GA14760-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20090405044919.GA14760@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20090406163131.GH3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 12:49:19AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > In the old days, we had to manually type in the program name to use > for "helper applications". Nowadays, Windows and Mac standards seem to > have taken over. Big brother knows what good for you, and you can only > use an annoying file-picker dialogue. What's even worse is that the > dialog *FORCIBLY DE-REFERENCES SYMLINKS*. I download a specific CSV > file from the web regularly with Firefox. When I first tried > downloading it, I was asked which program to use. I pointed the file > picker at /usr/bin/gnumeric which was a symlink that pointed to > /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 But because Firefox is so bleeping "user > friendly", it de-referenced the symlink to /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3 > > Fast-forward a few weeks. A regular Gentoo update bumps the version > to gnumeric-1.8.4 and when I tried to download the CSV file, Firefox > complained that the helper app (/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3) did not exist. > Well... like... dohhh. I went through the rigamarole with the file > picker dialogue. And again, it de-referenced the symlink, this time to > /usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.4 > > This annoyed me enough to make me look deeper. With the help of > Google I found > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&id=176486 > I noticed the rant in comment #46, and threw in my own at #47 and went > off on a wild hunch to hack around it. My hunch appears to work. > Here's a quick-n-dirty work-around to the problem... > > With the help of "grep -r", I found references to to gnumeric-1.8.4 in > file mimeTypes.rdf in my user account directory. I... > > 1) shut down Firefox > 2) created a backup of mimeTypes.rdf > 3) in mimeTypes.rdf manually edited all occurences of > "/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.4" and "/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.8.3" (why was it > still around?) down to "/usr/bin/gnumeric". > 4) restarted Firefox > > The app associated with CSV files is now simply "gnumeric". Nothing > has blown up. My only complaint now is that I had to hack my way around > the bug. I won't know for certain until the next update of gnumeric, > but I believe I won't have to re-set the helper app for CSV files. Another solution would be to make gentoo use hardlinks instead of symlinks in which case firefox et al would have nothing to worry about and nothing to dereference. Would be more effificient too since you don't have to constantly dereference symlinks all over the place. Does make it harder to see what the current version of a tool is using ls. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 16:33:17 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:33:17 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <49D82D8C.70407-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 12:03:24AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Richard Dice wrote: >> s/(\d+)<\/size>/"" . ($1+4) . "<\/size>"/e; > > Grah! So 'e' was the magic... I stand humbled before the > match-stick-master. :D And that's why I am really starting to hate perl. :) The simpler it gets the less readable it is. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 16:41:39 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:41:39 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090406163317.GI3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 12:03:24AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Richard Dice wrote: >>> s/(\d+)<\/size>/"" . ($1+4) . "<\/size>"/e; >> Grah! So 'e' was the magic... I stand humbled before the >> match-stick-master. :D > > And that's why I am really starting to hate perl. :) The simpler it > gets the less readable it is. > "hate perl"? Oh, IT'S ON! :D Perl's a language you love or you hate. It doesn't seem to have much middle ground. I, personally, love it for it's flexibility. Though I have to admit, it can get pretty cryptic in the hands of someone for whom that is their intention. It enforces no "good behaviour", but instead leaves it to the coder to give a damn or not. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 17:55:55 2009 From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:55:55 -0400 Subject: no SATA Message-ID: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> I've been using ubuntu 8.10 with good sucess for several months on an Asus K8N board with an AMD 64 bit 3300 cpu + 1.0 gig ram. I put in a SATA 500gig HDD, but the system isn't recognizing the drive. I enabled SATA it in the bios and set pnp OS to off. I tried enabling/disabling raid with no sucess. (the SATA drive worked in a windows box) Any ideas? TIA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 17:58:34 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:58:34 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <49DA30C3.6050401-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 12:41:39PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > "hate perl"? Oh, IT'S ON! > > :D > > Perl's a language you love or you hate. It doesn't seem to have much > middle ground. I, personally, love it for it's flexibility. Though I > have to admit, it can get pretty cryptic in the hands of someone for > whom that is their intention. It enforces no "good behaviour", but > instead leaves it to the coder to give a damn or not. Well the more I use perl the more I start to dislike it. The syntax is just awful. Too inconsistant, too many ways to do the same thing. Too much magic that makes things that you don't want be legal syntax yet do nothing useful. I still use perl, because well I know it. I do try to avoid all the nifty features that makes perl hard to read. Many nice languages grow on you with use. Perl does the opposit after a while. Things I dislike are: push(@myarray,\%foo) [why do I need to do that?] and then reletated to that: $foo{'bar'} versus $foo->{'bar'}. Why does one work and the other not in this case? Does perl have pointers and if so when? Gah! There are plenty more ugle thigns in perl. Python is at least more consistant in syntax, although that too is a language suffering from evolution (too many features have been deprecated over time making old example code no longer valid syntax). php is quite nice. I haven't used it for command line scripts, although it is perfectly possible. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 17:59:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:59:40 -0400 Subject: no SATA In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090406175940.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 01:55:55PM -0400, edward chin wrote: > I've been using ubuntu 8.10 with good sucess for several months > on an Asus K8N board with an AMD 64 bit 3300 cpu + 1.0 gig ram. > > I put in a SATA 500gig HDD, but the system isn't recognizing > the drive. I enabled SATA it in the bios and set pnp OS to off. > I tried enabling/disabling raid with no sucess. > > (the SATA drive worked in a windows box) > > Any ideas? Which kernel version? What does dmesg say? What about lspci? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 19:02:47 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:02:47 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090406175834.GJ3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 12:41:39PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> "hate perl"? Oh, IT'S ON! >> >> :D >> >> Perl's a language you love or you hate. It doesn't seem to have much >> middle ground. I, personally, love it for it's flexibility. Though I >> have to admit, it can get pretty cryptic in the hands of someone for >> whom that is their intention. It enforces no "good behaviour", but >> instead leaves it to the coder to give a damn or not. > > Well the more I use perl the more I start to dislike it. ?The syntax > is just awful. ?Too inconsistant, too many ways to do the same thing. > Too much magic that makes things that you don't want be legal syntax > yet do nothing useful. ?I still use perl, because well I know it. > I do try to avoid all the nifty features that makes perl hard to read. > Many nice languages grow on you with use. ?Perl does the opposit after > a while. :) To each his/her own, I guess. > Things I dislike are: > push(@myarray,\%foo) [why do I need to do that?] Because you want to add a reference to the foo hash to the end of myarray? > and then reletated to that: > $foo{'bar'} versus $foo->{'bar'}. ?Why does one work and the other not > in this case? The former address the bar element in the foo hash. The latter does the same with the foo hashref. And another way of writing the former is ${myarray[-1]}{'bar'} .. but this is just as complicated as using an array of structures that contain functions pointers in C; not something that gets daily use, perhaps, but a very useful part of the language. > Does perl have pointers and if so when? ?Gah! Perl has references, which provide the same indirection that pointers do in C. it's tough to do advanced software development without pointers, IMHO. > Python is at least more consistant in syntax, although that too is a > language suffering from evolution (too many features have been deprecated > over time making old example code no longer valid syntax). > > php is quite nice. ?I haven't used it for command line scripts, although > it is perfectly possible. PHP is a nice beginner's language, but it's not much use to me beyond doing web pages, so I haven't used it much. Perl gets the job done nicely for me -- and I quite like the community support. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 19:30:44 2009 From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:30:44 -0400 Subject: no SATA In-Reply-To: <20090406175940.GK3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> <20090406175940.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <8369b0fa0904061230n72192d98q3b76e730e117d999@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 01:55:55PM -0400, edward chin wrote: >> I've been using ubuntu 8.10 with good sucess for several months >> on an Asus K8N board with an AMD 64 bit 3300 cpu + 1.0 gig ram. >> >> I put in a SATA 500gig HDD, but the system isn't recognizing >> the drive. I enabled SATA it in the bios and set pnp OS to off. >> I tried enabling/disabling raid with no sucess. >> >> (the SATA drive worked in a windows box) >> >> Any ideas? > > Which kernel version? ?What does dmesg say? ?What about lspci? > I can't get wine to run lspci kernel is 2.6.27-11-generic dmesg relating to SATA is below: [ 4.123123] sata_nv 0000:00:0a.0: version 3.5 [ 4.123140] sata_nv 0000:00:0a.0: PCI INT A -> Link[LTID] -> GSI 21 (level, low) -> IRQ 21 [ 4.123185] sata_nv 0000:00:0a.0: setting latency timer to 64 [ 4.125621] scsi2 : sata_nv [ 4.131594] scsi3 : sata_nv [ 4.132530] ata3: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x9f0 ctl 0xbf0 bmdma 0xc800 irq 21 [ 4.132533] ata4: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x970 ctl 0xb70 bmdma 0xc808 irq 21 [ 4.135567] scsi 0:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg0 type 0 [ 4.135602] scsi 0:0:1:0: Attached scsi generic sg1 type 0 [ 4.135642] scsi 1:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg2 type 5 [ 4.146326] usb 1-2: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice [ 4.162330] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type methods [ 4.162468] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 312581808 512-byte hardware sectors (160042 MB) [ 4.162483] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [ 4.162485] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Mode Sense: 00 3a 00 00 [ 4.162505] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: enabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA [ 4.162568] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 312581808 512-byte hardware sectors (160042 MB) [ 4.162579] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [ 4.162581] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Mode Sense: 00 3a 00 00 [ 4.162600] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: enabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA [ 4.162604] sda:<4>Driver 'sr' needs updating - please use bus_type methods [ 4.187163] sda1 sda2 <<6>usbcore: registered new interface driver hiddev [ 4.198535] input: Logitech USB-PS/2 Optical Mouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:02.0/usb1/1-2/1-2:1.0/input/input2 [ 4.201626] sda5<6>input,hidraw0: USB HID v1.10 Mouse [Logitech USB-PS/2 Optical Mouse] on usb-0000:00:02.0-2 [ 4.208238] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid [ 4.208242] usbhid: v2.6:USB HID core driver [ 4.209349] sda6 sda7 sda8 sda9 sda10 > [ 4.264338] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Attached SCSI disk [ 4.268564] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] 976773168 512-byte hardware sectors (500108 MB) [ 4.268583] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off [ 4.268585] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 00 3a 00 00 [ 4.268606] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Write cache: enabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA [ 4.268709] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] 976773168 512-byte hardware sectors (500108 MB) [ 4.268720] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off [ 4.268723] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 00 3a 00 00 [ 4.268741] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Write cache: enabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA [ 4.268746] sdb: sdb1 sdb2 < sdb5 sdb6 > [ 4.296070] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI disk [ 4.304111] sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 40x/40x writer dvd-ram cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray [ 4.304117] Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.20 [ 4.304237] sr 1:0:0:0: Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 [ 10.052010] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 14.140014] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 14.140026] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 14.140032] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 20.060013] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 24.148010] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 24.148022] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 24.148028] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 30.068010] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 59.188011] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 59.188083] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 59.188089] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 59.188092] ata3: limiting SATA link speed to 1.5 Gbps [ 64.212004] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 64.212070] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 310) [ 64.212074] ata3: link online but device misclassified, device detection might fail [ 64.213050] ata3: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x19d0000 action 0xe frozen [ 64.213129] ata3: SError: { PHYRdyChg CommWake 10B8B Dispar LinkSeq TrStaTrns } [ 64.213208] ata3: hard resetting link [ 64.936009] ata4: SATA link down (SStatus 0 SControl 300) [ 70.164007] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 74.252005] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 74.252075] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 74.252081] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 74.252084] ata3: hard resetting link [ 80.172005] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 81.510919] PM: Starting manual resume from disk [ 81.510925] PM: Resume from partition 8:10 [ 81.510926] PM: Checking hibernation image. [ 81.511378] PM: Resume from disk failed. [ 81.555463] kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds [ 81.555483] EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. [ 84.260012] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 84.260099] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 84.260104] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 84.260108] ata3: hard resetting link [ 89.483229] udevd version 124 started [ 90.158099] input: Power Button (FF) as /devices/LNXSYSTM:00/LNXPWRBN:00/input/input3 [ 90.168045] ACPI: Power Button (FF) [PWRF] [ 90.168214] input: Power Button (CM) as /devices/LNXSYSTM:00/device:00/PNP0C0C:00/input/input4 [ 90.184034] ACPI: Power Button (CM) [PWRB] [ 90.188014] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 90.252203] ACPI: I/O resource nForce2_smbus [0x5000-0x503f] conflicts with ACPI region SMRG [0x5000-0x5004] [ 90.252207] ACPI: Device needs an ACPI driver [ 90.252256] i2c-adapter i2c-0: nForce2 SMBus adapter at 0x5000 [ 90.252281] i2c-adapter i2c-1: nForce2 SMBus adapter at 0x5040 [ 90.931266] parport_pc 00:06: reported by Plug and Play ACPI [ 90.931308] parport0: PC-style at 0x378, irq 7 [PCSPP,TRISTATE] [ 90.933204] parport0: Printer, Brother HL-2040 series [ 91.205807] ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LAUI] enabled at IRQ 20 [ 91.205814] Intel ICH 0000:00:06.0: PCI INT A -> Link[LAUI] -> GSI 20 (level, low) -> IRQ 20 [ 91.205839] Intel ICH 0000:00:06.0: setting latency timer to 64 [ 91.528043] intel8x0_measure_ac97_clock: measured 54691 usecs [ 91.528048] intel8x0: clocking to 46878 [ 91.531028] pci_hotplug: PCI Hot Plug PCI Core version: 0.5 [ 91.548293] shpchp: Standard Hot Plug PCI Controller Driver version: 0.4 [ 92.961500] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel. [ 92.963193] Symbol init_mm is marked as UNUSED, however this module is using it. [ 92.963195] This symbol will go away in the future. [ 92.963197] Please evalute if this is the right api to use and if it really is, submit a report the linux kernel mailinglist together with submitting your code for inclusion. [ 93.225143] input: PC Speaker as /devices/platform/pcspkr/input/input5 [ 93.248330] ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKE] enabled at IRQ 19 [ 93.248343] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> Link[LNKE] -> GSI 19 (level, low) -> IRQ 19 [ 93.248647] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 173.14.12 Thu Jul 17 18:10:24 PDT 2008 [ 95.355294] lp0: using parport0 (interrupt-driven). [ 95.555423] Adding 1196800k swap on /dev/sda10. Priority:-1 extents:1 across:1196800k [ 119.316016] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 119.316090] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 119.316095] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 119.316098] ata3: limiting SATA link speed to 1.5 Gbps [ 119.316100] ata3: hard resetting link [ 124.340016] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 124.340088] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 310) [ 124.340093] ata3: link online but device misclassified, device detection might fail [ 124.340101] ata3: EH complete [ 124.341055] ata3: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x19d0000 action 0xe frozen [ 124.341134] ata3: SError: { PHYRdyChg CommWake 10B8B Dispar LinkSeq TrStaTrns } [ 124.341216] ata3: hard resetting link [ 130.260010] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 134.348010] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 134.348084] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 134.348089] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 134.348092] ata3: hard resetting link [ 140.268018] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 144.356018] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 144.356092] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 144.356097] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 144.356100] ata3: hard resetting link [ 150.276018] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 179.396012] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 179.396085] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 179.396091] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 179.396093] ata3: limiting SATA link speed to 1.5 Gbps [ 179.396096] ata3: hard resetting link [ 184.420011] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 184.420084] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 310) [ 184.420089] ata3: link online but device misclassified, device detection might fail [ 184.420098] ata3: EH complete [ 184.421058] ata3: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x19d0000 action 0xe frozen [ 184.421137] ata3: SError: { PHYRdyChg CommWake 10B8B Dispar LinkSeq TrStaTrns } [ 184.421219] ata3: hard resetting link [ 190.340012] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 194.428011] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 194.428085] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 194.428090] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 194.428094] ata3: hard resetting link [ 200.348011] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 204.436011] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 204.436085] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 204.436090] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 204.436093] ata3: hard resetting link [ 210.356014] ata3: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0) [ 239.476014] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 239.476087] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300) [ 239.476092] ata3: link online but device misclassified, retrying [ 239.476095] ata3: limiting SATA link speed to 1.5 Gbps [ 239.476097] ata3: hard resetting link [ 244.500012] ata3: SRST failed (errno=-16) [ 244.500085] ata3: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 310) [ 244.500090] ata3: link online but device misclassified, device detection might fail [ 244.500098] ata3: EH complete [ 244.501053] ata3: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x19d0000 action 0xe frozen [ 244.501141] ata3: SError: { PHYRdyChg CommWake 10B8B Dispar LinkSeq TrStaTrns } [ 244.501224] ata3: hard resetting link [ 246.924789] EXT3 FS on sda9, internal journal [ 247.358345] type=1505 audit(1239018391.135:2): operation="profile_load" name="/usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession" name2="default" pid=4172 [ 247.419843] type=1505 audit(1239018391.195:3): operation="profile_load" name="/usr/bin/freshclam" name2="default" pid=4177 [ 247.585744] type=1505 audit(1239018391.363:4): operation="profile_load" name="/usr/lib/cups/backend/cups-pdf" name2="default" pid=4181 [ 247.585994] type=1505 audit(1239018391.363:5): operation="profile_load" name="/usr/sbin/cupsd" name2="default" pid=4181 [ 247.653805] ip_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 19:42:22 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:42:22 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090406194222.GA5024@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 03:02:47PM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: >On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 12:41:39PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >>> "hate perl"? Oh, IT'S ON! >>> >>> :D >>> >>> Perl's a language you love or you hate. It doesn't seem to have much >>> middle ground. I, personally, love it for it's flexibility. I have to say, I find it somewhere in the middle. I don't hate it, and there are still some things I do in it, but mostly I use Python these last few years. >> Python is at least more consistant in syntax, although that too is a >> language suffering from evolution (too many features have been deprecated >> over time making old example code no longer valid syntax). I can see this as a reasonable criticism, but I prefer this method of evolution to the Perl approach that all old code should still run on new interpreters - I think the advantage of interpreted languages is that you can leave some code in place with the old interpreter as a special case, and move forward. >> php is quite nice. ?I haven't used it for command line scripts, although >> it is perfectly possible. > >PHP is a nice beginner's language, but it's not much use to me beyond >doing web pages, so I haven't used it much. I am finding that on projects of any significant complexity, PHP's single namespace and wonky library system makes me crazy. Still, the fact that you can do just about everything that you need to out of the box (as opposed to Perl, where CPAN is the double-edged sword of choice) is a big selling point. That was/is a big reason for switching to Python about 8 years ago. >Perl gets the job done nicely for me -- and I quite like the community support. As far as I can tell, the Perl community is unmatched for helpfulness, supportiveness and solidity. Perlmonks.org all by itself is reason to use Perl. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 19:51:10 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:51:10 -0400 Subject: no SATA In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0904061230n72192d98q3b76e730e117d999-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> <20090406175940.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <8369b0fa0904061230n72192d98q3b76e730e117d999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090406195110.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 03:30:44PM -0400, edward chin wrote: > I can't get wine to run lspci > > kernel is 2.6.27-11-generic OK, so quite recent kernel, and nvidia sata controller. What kind of disk is it? It appears that the disk isn't happy about running in SATA1 mode, and hence lots of complaints about the link. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 6 19:55:37 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:55:37 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090406175834.GJ3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> First and foremost, I don't want to be seen trying to talk you into a language you are unhappy with. Different languages for different folks... To answer your questions though... Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well the more I use perl the more I start to dislike it. The syntax > is just awful. Too inconsistant, too many ways to do the same thing. > Too much magic that makes things that you don't want be legal syntax > yet do nothing useful. I still use perl, because well I know it. > I do try to avoid all the nifty features that makes perl hard to read. > Many nice languages grow on you with use. Perl does the opposit after > a while. Like Linux; It's strength is also it's weakness - choice. > Things I dislike are: > push(@myarray,\%foo) [why do I need to do that?] \%hash, \@array, \{} (where {} contains code or a function) is a way to create a pointer to an existing hash, array, code chunk or such rather than copying said item. Saves a lot of memory, specially with big items. So in your case, you'd *want* to do that if you wanted to reference a hash as an element at the end of your array. Now why you would want to do that is up for discussion. ;) > and then reletated to that: > $foo{'bar'} versus $foo->{'bar'}. Why does one work and the other not $foo{'bar'} calls up the entry with the key 'bar' in the HASH 'foo'. However $foo->{'bar'} calls up the entry with the key 'bar' in the HASH REFERENCE 'foo'. A reference (be it a hash, array, code chunk or other) is a simple pointer stored in a string variable. An alternative, though deprecated, way to reference the hashref above would be: $$foo{'bar'}. This is ugly as sin, but can also be described as '${$foo}{'bar'}, which is a combination of the two methods above. > in this case? Does perl have pointers and if so when? Gah! > There are plenty more ugle thigns in perl. As Alex said, it has references, which are similar. A good example is the Net::DBus implementation with uses these references to call code functions when certain DBus events happen. > Python is at least more consistant in syntax, although that too is a > language suffering from evolution (too many features have been deprecated > over time making old example code no longer valid syntax). Python is a great language, but not flexible enough for me. See top of this message. > php is quite nice. I haven't used it for command line scripts, although > it is perfectly possible. PHP is likewise great, but too limiting for me. See top of this message. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 07:26:35 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:26:35 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <49DA5E39.2050008-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 03:55:37PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > First and foremost, I don't want to be seen trying to talk you into a > language you are unhappy with. Different languages for different > folks... To answer your questions though... While I agree with this in general, sometimes I wish that there were fewer ... because then we'd have much greater opportunity for collaboration and code reuse. Of course, we wouldn't have as many great languages if we didn't have the chance to go down other paths far enough to see where they lead. > Python is a great language, but not flexible enough for me. See top of > this message. The dogma of Python is that there is a "right way to do it", rather than "there's more than one way to do it", but practically, there are a lot of ways to do things in Python. The difference seems to be that the Python community encourages coders to converge on a collectively determined Pythonic style, whereas the Perl community embraces diversity in style, approach and syntax. Embraces, hugs fervently and gives wet sloppy kisses, actually. This difference may be why the Perl community is a more vibrant one. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 13:15:44 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:15:44 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090407072635.GA6090-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <49DB5200.8070604@alteeve.com> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 03:55:37PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> First and foremost, I don't want to be seen trying to talk you into a >> language you are unhappy with. Different languages for different >> folks... To answer your questions though... > > While I agree with this in general, sometimes I wish that there were > fewer ... because then we'd have much greater opportunity for > collaboration and code reuse. Of course, we wouldn't have as many great > languages if we didn't have the chance to go down other paths far enough > to see where they lead. The whole concept of an ecosystem in open source software extends to the languages it is written in, too. Over time, as languages are explored as you suggest, they will either fit a niche or die off. Both Perl and Python, heck PHP also, thrive because they fit a niche. More than that, they fit the personalities of people who use them to get stuff done. For that reason alone they all, in my mind, are equally good. >> Python is a great language, but not flexible enough for me. See top of >> this message. > > The dogma of Python is that there is a "right way to do it", rather than > "there's more than one way to do it", but practically, there are a lot > of ways to do things in Python. The difference seems to be that the > Python community encourages coders to converge on a collectively > determined Pythonic style, whereas the Perl community embraces diversity > in style, approach and syntax. Embraces, hugs fervently and gives wet > sloppy kisses, actually. This difference may be why the Perl community > is a more vibrant one. It's like going to school. Some people thrive in a structured environment and some people thrive in a more... complicated environment. Take someone from one group and try to push them to work in the other will cripple their ability to produce, make them miserable and generally suck all around. It's why I *hate* when I see people try to push Linux on other people who obviously are not interested. I know how much I hate working on Microsoft, I know how frustrated I get with PHP/MySQL and I know that when I am forced to use them I bitch and complain. I don't want someone uncomfortable with my favourites Perl/PostgreSQL/Linux forced to use them because then they too will bitch and complain and generally be miserable. Linux, like programming languages, share the same strength and weakness - choice. My $0.02 (+ interest) :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 16:40:10 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:40:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ifconfig data interpretation References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Why should ip replace the simple set of old tools ?! ip is quite complex and i cannot see it easily integrated into, f.ex. busybox, without creating unduely huge applications. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 20:32:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:32:51 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 04:40:10PM +0000, Peter wrote: > Why should ip replace the simple set of old tools ?! ip is quite complex and i > cannot see it easily integrated into, f.ex. busybox, without creating unduely > huge applications. Because ifconfig uses /proc and ip uses netlink. /proc is essentially deprecated, has no ability to retrieve multiple pieces of data at once without issues of syncrhonization. ifconfig doesn't show more than 9 characters in an interface name (which is allowed 15). ip replaces ifconfig and ifrename and route and a number of other tools, and is actually maintained and has new features being added. ifconfig is simply obsolete and stagnent. Get used to ip because someday that's all you will have and it is already a better and faster tool (parsing text from /proc is not an efficient way to get data). Remember nslookup? Well its not there anymore, because it too was replaced by a better tool. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 21:09:46 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: scary things at CRTC Message-ID: I read this message on the Ontario Asterisk users group mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/asterisk-GaisZHhRk3c at public.gmane.org/msg08825.html I was going to forward it to this list but it has a dumb notice on the bottom that warns you against even reading it if you were not sent it. Summary: (1) The ILECs (think: Bell Canada in our area) want to keep higher-speed ADSL service for their own end-users and not allow resellers to be able to sell it. CRTC ruled against them so they are appealing to the cabinet ("Governor in Council"). (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB for each customer. They want to hang onto / reacquire their monopoly position. This is to deal with future things like TV over IP. They argue/threaten that without the monopoly, they won't build out FTTN (Fibre to the node) beyond a few big cities. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 21:21:33 2009 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:21:33 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all other faiths. Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the right. Chris D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I read this message on the Ontario Asterisk users group mailing list: > http://www.mail-archive.com/asterisk-GaisZHhRk3c at public.gmane.org/msg08825.html > > I was going to forward it to this list but it has a dumb notice on the > bottom that warns you against even reading it if you were not sent it. > > > Summary: > > (1) The ILECs (think: Bell Canada in our area) want to keep > higher-speed ADSL service for their own end-users and not allow > resellers to be able to sell it. CRTC ruled against them so they > are appealing to the cabinet ("Governor in Council"). > > (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB for > each customer. > > They want to hang onto / reacquire their monopoly position. This is > to deal with future things like TV over IP. > > They argue/threaten that without the monopoly, they won't build out > FTTN (Fibre to the node) beyond a few big cities. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 21:35:03 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:35:03 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090407213503.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:09:46PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I read this message on the Ontario Asterisk users group mailing list: > http://www.mail-archive.com/asterisk-GaisZHhRk3c at public.gmane.org/msg08825.html > > I was going to forward it to this list but it has a dumb notice on the > bottom that warns you against even reading it if you were not sent it. > > Summary: > > (1) The ILECs (think: Bell Canada in our area) want to keep > higher-speed ADSL service for their own end-users and not allow > resellers to be able to sell it. CRTC ruled against them so they > are appealing to the cabinet ("Governor in Council"). > > (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB for > each customer. If the rates they want to charge are reasonable, then perhaps that is a perfectly sensible thing to do. > They want to hang onto / reacquire their monopoly position. This is > to deal with future things like TV over IP. > > They argue/threaten that without the monopoly, they won't build out > FTTN (Fibre to the node) beyond a few big cities. As if they are going to do it with a monopoly either. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 21:36:43 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:36:43 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBC3DD.4080607-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:21:33PM -0400, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all > other faiths. > > Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the right. Yes, let the sane person here have 5 minutes, and then the raving lunatic other there gets to have 5 minutes too. Not every opinion is equally valid and hence don't deserve equal time. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 23:37:52 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBC3DD.4080607-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: | From: Mr Chris Aitken | Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all other | faiths. Can you explain this further? As far as I know, the CRTC has nothing to say about the content of web sites. In the most abstract sense, they regulate natural monopolies and there is none in web sites. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 23:44:35 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:44:35 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:37 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Mr Chris Aitken > > | Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all other > | faiths. > > Can you explain this further? ?As far as I know, the CRTC has nothing > to say about the content of web sites. ?In the most abstract sense, > they regulate natural monopolies and there is none in web sites. I had the same reaction...'wha?'. How the heck would you measure that, anyway? :-\ This sounds suspiciously like some of that Barbara Kay hatemongering anti-Islam junk circulating on the Web. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 7 23:52:01 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:52:01 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBC3DD.4080607-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <7BD18001-64CE-4B3E-BE0C-F75F57E27512@gmail.com> Websites? Wouldn't this already be the case by default? It's not as if anyone else is prevented from making their own site. Heck you could setup a domain for $15/year and a $5 dreamhost account to host "churchofcthulthu.com" if you want. Sent from my phone. On 7-Apr-09, at 5:21 PM, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to > all other faiths. > > Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the > right. > > Chris > > > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> I read this message on the Ontario Asterisk users group mailing list: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/asterisk-GaisZHhRk3c at public.gmane.org/msg08825.html >> >> I was going to forward it to this list but it has a dumb notice on >> the bottom that warns you against even reading it if you were not >> sent it. >> >> >> Summary: >> >> (1) The ILECs (think: Bell Canada in our area) want to keep >> higher-speed ADSL service for their own end-users and not allow >> resellers to be able to sell it. CRTC ruled against them so they >> are appealing to the cabinet ("Governor in Council"). >> >> (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB >> for >> each customer. >> >> They want to hang onto / reacquire their monopoly position. This is >> to deal with future things like TV over IP. >> >> They argue/threaten that without the monopoly, they won't build out >> FTTN (Fibre to the node) beyond a few big cities. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 01:01:35 2009 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:01:35 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49DBF76F.5020306@chrisaitken.net> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Mr Chris Aitken > > | Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all other > | faiths. > > Can you explain this further? As far as I know, the CRTC has nothing > to say about the content of web sites. In the most abstract sense, > they regulate natural monopolies and there is none in web sites. > Well, a Christian organization that I have had no reason to mistrust (I can just /hear/ the obvious retort to /that/) has alerted me that the CRTC is trying to change that. So, if I put up a website called truthasrevealedinthebible.com I also have to include pages in there (or links or whatever) of completely opposing views. The commercial equivalent of this would be if coca-cola.com had to host pages and links to pepsi.com. I fear this thread will get ugly pretty quickly now (not my intention), so I'll withdraw until I've contacted the CRTC myself. Though, I'm sure someone will invoke a certain dead despot before this thread gets really out of hand. :) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 05:16:38 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:16:38 -0400 Subject: network problem Message-ID: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y was moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the same gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, and disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the other IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get box Z to be accessible? Arp? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 01:43:30 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:43:30 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBF76F.5020306-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <49DBF76F.5020306@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> | From: Mr Chris Aitken >> >> | Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all >> other >> | faiths. >> >> Can you explain this further? ?As far as I know, the CRTC has nothing >> to say about the content of web sites. ?In the most abstract sense, >> they regulate natural monopolies and there is none in web sites. >> > > Well, a Christian organization that I have had no reason to mistrust (I can > just /hear/ the obvious retort to /that/) has alerted me that the CRTC is > trying to change that. So, if I put up a website called > truthasrevealedinthebible.com I also have to include pages in there (or > links or whatever) of completely opposing views. The commercial equivalent > of this would be if coca-cola.com had to host pages and links to pepsi.com. > I fear this thread will get ugly pretty quickly now (not my intention), so > I'll withdraw until I've contacted the CRTC myself. Though, I'm sure someone > will invoke a certain dead despot before this thread gets really out of > hand. That's probably a good idea. Without specific information (ie. actual facts), it stinks of 'axe to grind', or the crap that Fox News always pulls, the old 'People are saying...'. I can guarantee you that someone is yanking your chain, or worse, this 'alert' is just a bunch of hooey. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 02:08:56 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:08:56 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBF76F.5020306-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <49DBF76F.5020306@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49DC0738.5070901@alteeve.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Well, a Christian organization that I have had no reason to mistrust (I > can just /hear/ the obvious retort to /that/) has alerted me that the > CRTC is trying to change that. So, if I put up a website called > truthasrevealedinthebible.com I also have to include pages in there (or > links or whatever) of completely opposing views. The commercial > equivalent of this would be if coca-cola.com had to host pages and links > to pepsi.com. I fear this thread will get ugly pretty quickly now (not > my intention), so I'll withdraw until I've contacted the CRTC myself. > Though, I'm sure someone will invoke a certain dead despot before this > thread gets really out of hand. > > :) > > Chris [Citation Needed] Here's the thing... GTALUG, like many tech groups, are composed of fairly intelligent people who've been fed enough lines to be quite skeptical of unsubstantiated claims and rumours. A while back, Focus on the Family had a form on their page and were encouraging people to use it to send angry letters to some company or another why supported gay marriage among their employees. Fark got hold of the URL and posted it, suggesting people use it to mail-bomb their support to said company. I did that, and in doing so got forever on their mailing list. Like damnation, they feel that once they've got you... Anyway, to the point, I now get their Action Alerts and often they have something to do with queer-ness of some sort. Their unhealthy obsession aside, it's easy to tell that their alerts are often full of crap. Sure, they cite sources, but those sources are simply equally biased. So when it comes to religious, government or similar conspiracy theories, you will find groups like GTALUG more reception when you cite sources. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 02:35:25 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:35:25 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <49DC3336.1040406-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y was > moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the same > gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. > > The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes > properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, and > disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the other > IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. > > I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have > access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get box Z > to be accessible? Arp? > Don't just move the IP from X to Z, move the network card as well. > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 03:16:50 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:16:50 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <49DC3336.1040406-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090407231650.27e29e28.tleslie@tcn.net> weird, you can rule out the router, if box x and box z can talk to each other on that IP, if on same subnet, as it will not gateway via the router. never seen a switch arp cache like that. possible some other box on network is using ip? other experiments might be to cross-over-ethernet-cable the two boxes, see if the talk to each other on same subnet, and one with that IP of issue. (or make sure only those two boxes are on the switch). you say it only "routes properly", that would imply since your "routing", that the other boxes are not on the same subnet?, that it isnt just placing the packet on the wire (i.e. no routing). -tl On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:16:38 -0400 Jamon Camisso wrote: > So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y > was moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the > same gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. > > The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes > properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, > and disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the > other IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. > > I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have > access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get > box Z to be accessible? Arp? > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 03:50:52 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:50:52 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBF76F.5020306-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <49DBF76F.5020306@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> | From: Mr Chris Aitken >> >> | Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all >> other >> | faiths. >> >> Can you explain this further? ?As far as I know, the CRTC has nothing >> to say about the content of web sites. ?In the most abstract sense, >> they regulate natural monopolies and there is none in web sites. >> > > Well, a Christian organization that I have had no reason to mistrust (I can > just /hear/ the obvious retort to /that/) has alerted me that the CRTC is > trying to change that. So, if I put up a website called > truthasrevealedinthebible.com I also have to include pages in there (or > links or whatever) of completely opposing views. The commercial equivalent > of this would be if coca-cola.com had to host pages and links to pepsi.com. > I fear this thread will get ugly pretty quickly now (not my intention), so > I'll withdraw until I've contacted the CRTC myself. Though, I'm sure someone > will invoke a certain dead despot before this thread gets really out of > hand. This smells like something made-up. How would you create a law in the first place to define this? How would you establish an enforcement mechanism for this? What would be the penalty for failing to follow this? Those would be necessary things for there to be any kind of mechanism to enforce such a thing, and all three are very challenging to define. This smells like the sort of thing that would get emitted by the sorts of people that: a) Take "Chick Publications" completely seriously... b) Think that the most serious issue in our society is the problem that aluminium companies are forcing us to pay to put their waste, in the form of fluoride, into the water supply... c) Seriously think that the 13th tribe of Israel moved to England... d) Think there's a conspiracy to hide that 40,000 Americans are killed each year as part of witchcraft ceremonies... If you can't find a reference to the bill or regulation, it's really rather likely that the claim about "some law" is nonsense. One of the downsides to the Internet is that it makes it much easier to spread nonsense really quickly, even faster than a good tractor can spread manure... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Fran Lebowitz - "Life is something to do when you can't get to sleep." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 11:29:39 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:29:39 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DC8AA3.4030601@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I read this message on the Ontario Asterisk users group mailing list: > http://www.mail-archive.com/asterisk-GaisZHhRk3c at public.gmane.org/msg08825.html > > I was going to forward it to this list but it has a dumb notice on the > bottom that warns you against even reading it if you were not sent it. > Of course, by the time you get to the bottom, you've likely already read the message. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 11:30:32 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:30:32 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DBC3DD.4080607-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49DC8AD8.2060001@rogers.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to > all other faiths. If I had my way, there'd be no such nonsense on the web, "Christian" or other. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 11:38:52 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:38:52 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090407213503.GN3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213503.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DC8CCC.6070004@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB for >> each customer. >> > > If the rates they want to charge are reasonable, then perhaps that is > a perfectly sensible thing to do. > That depends on how much of Bell's equipment they use. If the ISP provides it's own DSLAM and uses only Bell's wires, then there shouldn't be any such charge. If they use Bell's DSLAM, perhaps, though they might be paying for bandwidth in other ways already. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 11:40:29 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:40:29 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090407213643.GO3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:21:33PM -0400, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all >> other faiths. >> >> Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the right. >> > > Yes, let the sane person here have 5 minutes, and then the raving lunatic > other there gets to have 5 minutes too. Not every opinion is equally > valid and hence don't deserve equal time. > > How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered "sane"? Or is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 13:38:53 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:38:53 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <20090407231650.27e29e28.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> <20090407231650.27e29e28.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <49DCA8ED.1020708@utoronto.ca> ted leslie wrote: > weird, > > you can rule out the router, if box x and box z can talk to each other on that IP, > if on same subnet, as it will not gateway via the router. > never seen a switch arp cache like that. > > possible some other box on network is using ip? > other experiments might be to cross-over-ethernet-cable the two boxes, > see if the talk to each other on same subnet, and one with that IP of issue. > (or make sure only those two boxes are on the switch). > > you say it only "routes properly", that would imply since your "routing", > that the other boxes are not on the same subnet?, that it isnt just placing the > packet on the wire (i.e. no routing). Well, thanks to both posters for the feedback. Seems it "just works" today, without any intervention on anyone's part. I'd have expected that to happen almost immediately, not over the course of 8 or more hours, but ah well. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 14:05:52 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:05:52 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DC8D2D.1040804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:40:29AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:21:33PM -0400, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > > > >> Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all > >> other faiths. > >> > >> Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the right. > >> > > > > Yes, let the sane person here have 5 minutes, and then the raving lunatic > > other there gets to have 5 minutes too. Not every opinion is equally > > valid and hence don't deserve equal time. > > > > > How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered "sane"? Or > is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? Personally I think all religions are insane. I was more commenting on equal time for oposing arguments in general. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 14:10:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:10:53 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DC8CCC.6070004-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213503.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8CCC.6070004@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408141053.GQ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:38:52AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> (2) They want to charge resellers for monthly transit of over 60GB for > >> each customer. > >> > > > > If the rates they want to charge are reasonable, then perhaps that is > > a perfectly sensible thing to do. > > > That depends on how much of Bell's equipment they use. If the ISP > provides it's own DSLAM and uses only Bell's wires, then there shouldn't > be any such charge. If they use Bell's DSLAM, perhaps, though they > might be paying for bandwidth in other ways already. Yes, the data on the customers line should be unmetered, and you can charge a fee for giving access to the customers line, which they certainly seem to do. Then if you use Bell's DSLAM and backbone to carry the data from the CO to the ISP, then Bell could charge for that too, although perhaps better than charging for anything above a certain amount for a single customer, they could simply have the ISP pay for the total consumption of all their customers combined. After all the data below 60GB/user still has to be carried, and it means the ISP can budget what they want to allow their customers to use. Charging per customer and only over a certain limit seems entirely based on trying to make their own capped service look good by punishing ISPs that don't impose caps on their users at the same level as Bell. If the ISP has their own DSLAM in the CO and their own back haul lines, then they should only be paying for access to the line and certainly nothing for data since it makes no difference to Bell's equipment at all. Very few ISPs seem to do this however since it requires way more investment in infrastructure. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 14:13:26 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:13:26 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <49DC3336.1040406-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090408141325.GR3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:16:38AM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y > was moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the > same gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. > > The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes > properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, > and disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the > other IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. > > I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have > access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get > box Z to be accessible? Arp? Did you disconnect Box X? Did you give box X a new IP? Can you ping the IP on box Z? The switch shouldn't care about IP, only mac addresses. Did you check the arp table on some other box on the network to see what mac they think belongs to IP Y? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 15:10:16 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:10:16 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408140552.GP3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered "sane"? Or >> is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? > > Personally I think all religions are insane. I was more commenting on > equal time for oposing arguments in general. To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and close-minded. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 15:21:38 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:21:38 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCBE58.5080005-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of > others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and > close-minded. Well perhaps. I think religion is a quick excuse for people too lazy to figure out how the world works for themselves. Much easier to go by faith than to actually try to understand things. I also think many religions are being used as a means to control people who are willing to put their trust in faith. I prefer people to think for themselves, and religion seems to in general discourage that. I am sure there are a few exceptions. The use of religion to control people and what they think (through making them blindly believe something) is the cause of most of not all of the wars the world has ever seen. We would be much better off without religions at all. Sure religions can provide a sense of community and belonging and be a nice social activity, but so can many other things. So well that's why I think anyone that does anything based on faith is closed minded. I accept that there are things I don't know the answers to yet. I like to learn how things work and how everything fits together, and prefer answers that fit the facts and only the facts. There are no facts in religion. There is no truth in religion. Just stories and tradition. There are good morals in religion, but you don't have to belive in religion to like good morals. And this is all completely off topic too I suspect. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 15:43:55 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:43:55 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408152138.GS3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2009-04-08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >> close-minded. > > Well perhaps. Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to figure out how the world works for themselves. Much easier to read and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's self. I also think science is being used as a means to control people who are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. I prefer people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. I don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any verification themselves. Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:09:57 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:09:57 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>> close-minded. >> >> Well perhaps. > > Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to > figure out how the world works for themselves. ?Much easier to read > and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's > self. > > I also think science is being used as a means to control people who > are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. ?I prefer > people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally > discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. ?I > don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just > trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any > verification themselves. > > Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... You flatter yourself. Just because you replaced a bunch of words with their opposite doesn't make it 'irony'. Your attempt at cleverness assumes that 'science' and 'religion' are equal in terms of faith, they are certainly not. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:12:46 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:12:46 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090408161245.GT3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:43:55AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to > figure out how the world works for themselves. Much easier to read > and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's > self. Well some books are fiction. Some books are just plain wrong. Just because it is in a book doesn't mean it is right. Reading books and then trying to check things yourself can be quite useful. > I also think science is being used as a means to control people who > are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. I prefer > people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally > discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. I > don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just > trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any > verification themselves. But science encourages you to go verify it for yourself. > Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... Yeah probably. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:14:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:14:54 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090408161454.GU3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 12:09:57PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > You flatter yourself. Just because you replaced a bunch of words with > their opposite doesn't make it 'irony'. Your attempt at cleverness > assumes that 'science' and 'religion' are equal in terms of faith, > they are certainly not. Yeah exactly. You could verify what you learn from science, given the time and equipment yourself. There is nothing in any religious text that you can verify yourself. Those are just as verifiable as a discworld novel. Faith is your only option when it comes to religion. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:37:58 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:37:58 -0400 Subject: OT: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408161454.GU3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090408161454.GU3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DCD2E6.6020501@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 12:09:57PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> You flatter yourself. Just because you replaced a bunch of words with >> their opposite doesn't make it 'irony'. Your attempt at cleverness >> assumes that 'science' and 'religion' are equal in terms of faith, >> they are certainly not. > > Yeah exactly. You could verify what you learn from science, given the > time and equipment yourself. There is nothing in any religious text > that you can verify yourself. Those are just as verifiable as a > discworld novel. Faith is your only option when it comes to religion. > I can verify that Peach Pie Street and Treacle Mine Road exist.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/06/treacle_mine_road/ :) Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:39:53 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:39:53 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2009-04-08, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Christopher Browne > wrote: >> On 2009-04-08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >>>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>>> close-minded. >>> >>> Well perhaps. >> >> Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to >> figure out how the world works for themselves. Much easier to read >> and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's >> self. >> >> I also think science is being used as a means to control people who >> are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. I prefer >> people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally >> discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. I >> don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just >> trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any >> verification themselves. >> >> Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... > > You flatter yourself. Just because you replaced a bunch of words with > their opposite doesn't make it 'irony'. Your attempt at cleverness > assumes that 'science' and 'religion' are equal in terms of faith, > they are certainly not. Flattery gets you nowhere. Throwing insults doesn't get people very far, either, and that's what this thread has devolved into. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 16:56:59 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:56:59 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49DCD75B.7090003@rogers.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y was >> moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the same >> gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. >> >> The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes >> properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, and >> disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the other >> IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. >> >> I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have >> access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get box Z >> to be accessible? Arp? >> >> > Don't just move the IP from X to Z, move the network card as well. > Why should it be necessary to move the NIC? I've often moved IP addresses, without changing cards. And, with lots of equipment, there's no card to move. Also, the contents of an arp cache are temporay. . They should clear out automagically after a few minutes. A reboot would certainly flush any cache entries. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:01:14 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:01:14 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> Actually it depends on what you want to believe. There are facts in the bible that you can go out and prove. Christians call the people who prove the bible Apologetics. I personally don't know much about the fact, but there are facts of people, places, and history that is in the bible. It all stems from which source or original source on the basis of your faith. On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-08, Thomas Milne wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Christopher Browne >> wrote: >>> On 2009-04-08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>>> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >>>>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>>>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>>>> close-minded. >>>> >>>> Well perhaps. >>> >>> Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to >>> figure out how the world works for themselves. ?Much easier to read >>> and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's >>> self. >>> >>> I also think science is being used as a means to control people who >>> are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. ?I prefer >>> people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally >>> discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. ?I >>> don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just >>> trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any >>> verification themselves. >>> >>> Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... >> >> You flatter yourself. Just because you replaced a bunch of words with >> their opposite doesn't make it 'irony'. Your attempt at cleverness >> assumes that 'science' and 'religion' are equal in terms of faith, >> they are certainly not. > > Flattery gets you nowhere. > > Throwing insults doesn't get people very far, either, and that's what > this thread has devolved into. > -- > http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:03:46 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:03:46 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> And a side note, Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:10:52 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:10:52 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <49DCD75B.7090003-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> <49DCD75B.7090003@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408131052.74698d05@teksavvy.com> James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Jamon Camisso > > wrote: > >> So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y was > >> moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the same > >> gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. > >> > >> The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes > >> properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, and > >> disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the other > >> IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. > >> > >> I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have > >> access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get box Z > >> to be accessible? Arp? > >> > >> > > Don't just move the IP from X to Z, move the network card as well. > > > > Why should it be necessary to move the NIC? I've often moved IP > addresses, without changing cards. I would hope so! I certainly don't replace a NIC every time I change IP's. > And, with lots of equipment, there's > no card to move. Also, the contents of an arp cache are temporay. . They're _supposed_ to be temporary, yes. However, try a search on 'arp cache won't clear'. Admittedly, most of the results seem to be Windows related... > They should clear out automagically after a few minutes. A reboot would > certainly flush any cache entries. Yes, if he could reboot the machine with the arp cache. Jamon said he could not access the router or switch. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:12:30 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:12:30 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408140552.GP3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:40:29AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:21:33PM -0400, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Not to mention they want Christian websites to give "equal time" to all >>>> other faiths. >>>> >>>> Looks like the CRTC is giving us all the worst of the left /and/ the right. >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, let the sane person here have 5 minutes, and then the raving lunatic >>> other there gets to have 5 minutes too. Not every opinion is equally >>> valid and hence don't deserve equal time. >>> >>> >>> >> How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered "sane"? Or >> is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? >> > > Personally I think all religions are insane. I was more commenting on > equal time for oposing arguments in general. > > Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that believe their's to be the only true one. That sort of position leads to so much violence in this world. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:16:48 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:16:48 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCBE58.5080005-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered >>> "sane"? Or >>> is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? >> >> Personally I think all religions are insane. I was more commenting on >> equal time for oposing arguments in general. > > To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of > others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and > close-minded. > Not closed minded, but open to real evidence to support such beliefs. So far that seems to be in very short supply, yet people are supposed to simply believe in something that not only has no supporting evidence, but is contradicted by a very large amount of real world evidence, simply because someone says you have to. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but until some real evidence is produced, all religious belief is a delusion and nonsense. No exceptions. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:19:59 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:19:59 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCDC00.1040804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> My Stand point still stands: Even the root of certain "Science" is faith. Can you tell me exactly the root of everything? The root of the big bang? What caused the initial explosion. Can you tell me the root of DNA or the root of the amoeba..or even fuller. I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could prove me right. The root of all belief of something is faith even science. On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM, James Knott wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>>> How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered >>>> "sane"? ?Or >>>> is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? >>> >>> Personally I think all religions are insane. ?I was more commenting on >>> equal time for oposing arguments in general. >> >> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >> close-minded. >> > > Not closed minded, but open to real evidence to support such beliefs. > So far that seems to be in very short supply, yet people are supposed to > simply believe in something that not only has no supporting evidence, > but is contradicted by a very large amount of real world evidence, > simply because someone says you have to. > > I'm sorry if you don't like this, but until some real evidence is > produced, all religious belief is a delusion and nonsense. ?No exceptions. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:20:43 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:20:43 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba@mail.gmail.com> Well I'm not a fool but my knowledge is somewhat limited. On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > My Stand point still stands: > > Even the root of certain "Science" is faith. Can you tell me exactly > the root of everything? The root of the big bang? What caused the > initial explosion. Can you tell me the root of DNA or the root of the > amoeba..or even fuller. > > I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could > prove me right. The root of all belief of something is faith even > science. > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM, James Knott wrote: >> Madison Kelly wrote: >>> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>>>> How can anyone advocating any religious belief be considered >>>>> "sane"? ?Or >>>>> is it only *YOUR* religion that is true? >>>> >>>> Personally I think all religions are insane. ?I was more commenting on >>>> equal time for oposing arguments in general. >>> >>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>> close-minded. >>> >> >> Not closed minded, but open to real evidence to support such beliefs. >> So far that seems to be in very short supply, yet people are supposed to >> simply believe in something that not only has no supporting evidence, >> but is contradicted by a very large amount of real world evidence, >> simply because someone says you have to. >> >> I'm sorry if you don't like this, but until some real evidence is >> produced, all religious belief is a delusion and nonsense. ?No exceptions. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > > > > Dave Germiquet > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:24:08 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:24:08 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > And a side note, > > Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you > get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. Now _I'm_ insulted. That is just not true _at all_. Science is based on verification through experimentation, and a good scientist takes _nothing_ on faith. Science is a question. It questions everything, including itself, constantly. These claims people make about science being based on faith betray an utter lack of understanding about what scientists actually do. This anti-science hogwash is fit for the dung-heap, and has been ever since it reared its ugly head with people like that mentally deranged Ronald Reagan almost 30 years ago. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:24:36 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:24:36 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33@mail.gmail.com> Could we drop this thread until someone has info from the CRTC? This list is about Linux, not religious or even scientific beliefs. There are other forums to discuss those. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:25:37 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:25:37 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> >>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>> close-minded. >>> >> Well perhaps. >> > > Personally, I think books are a quick excuse for people too lazy to > figure out how the world works for themselves. Much easier to read > and go by faith rather than to actually try to figure things out one's > self. > > I also think science is being used as a means to control people who > are willing to put their trust in faith in scientists. I prefer > people to think for themselves, but popular science seems to generally > discourage that, although I am sure there are some exceptions. I > don't see many cases of this; people seem way more inclined to just > trust in whatever they heard some scientist said than to do any > verification themselves. > > Anyone without an irony-meter should probably ignore this... > Science requires people to think & challenge and not accept things because someone says so. Unfortunately, many people do not make that effort and many are ignorant of basic science. While science grows by building on previous work, it also grows by challenging that previous work too. As an example look at how astrophysics progressed from Kepler, Newton, Einstein and others. Kepler came up with circular orbits, which was a big improvement over what had been claimed by the church. Then Newton realized orbits were elliptical and also developed the theory of gravity. Einstein took Newton's work and expanded it to relativity etc. Bottom line, look at the existing science, see where it can be improved, where it is "good enough" and go from there. It's a process of constant refinement. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:25:42 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:25:42 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408132542.489156a7@teksavvy.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could > prove me right. No, I think anyone with more intelligence would likely be proving you wrong ;) /runs for cover -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 17:37:20 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:37:20 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCBE58.5080005-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of > others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and > close-minded. > > Madi What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply idiots. It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. That's all I was trying to get at. Talk to people who believe things you don't, don't simply shut them down with petty name calling. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:11:25 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:11:25 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <20090408131052.74698d05-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> <49DCD75B.7090003@rogers.com> <20090408131052.74698d05@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49DCE8CD.3040205@tmis.ca> Was a mac hw address tied to a NIC in /etc/udev/netpersistent rules? JoeHill wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > >> Thomas Milne wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Jamon Camisso >>> wrote: >>> >>>> So I've run into a really strange network problem. Box X had IP Y. IP Y was >>>> moved to box Z. Box X and Z are behind the same switch, and use the same >>>> gateway. The switch is a 3Com 4400. >>>> >>>> The IP is accessible by any host behind the switch. But it only routes >>>> properly when on box X. Box Z, no luck. I've tested iptables on box Z, and >>>> disabled it just to be sure, no luck. Box Z also works with all the other >>>> IPs it has assigned to it, that are on the same subnet as IP Y. >>>> >>>> I'm thinking it is an arp cache on the switch or router, but don't have >>>> access to either to check. You can see where I'm going, how can I get box Z >>>> to be accessible? Arp? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Don't just move the IP from X to Z, move the network card as well. >>> >>> >> Why should it be necessary to move the NIC? I've often moved IP >> addresses, without changing cards. >> > > I would hope so! I certainly don't replace a NIC every time I change IP's. > > >> And, with lots of equipment, there's >> no card to move. Also, the contents of an arp cache are temporay. . >> > > They're _supposed_ to be temporary, yes. However, try a search on 'arp cache > won't clear'. Admittedly, most of the results seem to be Windows related... > > >> They should clear out automagically after a few minutes. A reboot would >> certainly flush any cache entries. >> > > Yes, if he could reboot the machine with the arp cache. Jamon said he could not > access the router or switch. > > -- -------------------------------------- Teddy David Mills TMIS Linux System Administrator E: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org W1: http://vger1.dyndns.org/ W2: http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress -------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:11:20 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:11:20 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, JoeHill wrote: > Dave Germiquet wrote: > >> And a side note, >> >> Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you >> get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. > > Now _I'm_ insulted. > > That is just not true _at all_. Science is based on verification through > experimentation, and a good scientist takes _nothing_ on faith. Science is a > question. It questions everything, including itself, constantly. These claims > people make about science being based on faith betray an utter lack of > understanding about what scientists actually do. > > This anti-science hogwash is fit for the dung-heap, and has been ever since it > reared its ugly head with people like that mentally deranged Ronald Reagan > almost 30 years ago. I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. I'll not add anything further to this thread after that. I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except for the "anti-science hogwash." It's not anti-science at all, in fact it's proof. All science comes down to is this: A theory is valid and acceptable until a better theory comes along. This requires a certain amount of faith. Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very difficult concepts. What is thought? Why can we question and investigate things -- curiosities, origins, and even existence itself. Science is great (I love it anyway) but it's hardly complete. As a person who's wanted to "be a scientist" since I was I child (about 7yrs old) I don't see any conflict between these points of view. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:14:32 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:14:32 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904081114n4eaf2a66v40be874c5a0a3a6b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > Could we drop this thread until someone has info from the CRTC? ?This > list is about Linux, not religious or even scientific beliefs. ?There > are other forums to discuss those. I'll second Giles' call. I asked the same a short while ago and received what I interpret as a fair amount of respect in that the threads were discontinued. (Thanks to all for that btw!) In a sense I find this thread a continuation of the same fundamental problems I was trying to tease out and understand. I'm still not sure how to proceed, but I'll agree that this thread has gone in directions unintended. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:36:29 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:36:29 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCDE11.6020805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 2009-04-08, James Knott wrote: > Science requires people to think & challenge and not accept things > because someone says so. Scientists living in Russia between 1930 and 1960 would be quite likely to take exception to that claim, as the scientific establishment, which was conspicuously NOT "religion-influenced," arrested and executed scientists that challenged the status quo. Look up Lysenkoism and Lamarckism for more on this... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:39:37 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:39:37 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCE0D0.9090303-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090408143937.1f4344de@teksavvy.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > > To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of > > others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and > > close-minded. > > > > Madi > > What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone > else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes > the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people > getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) > > I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean > Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply > idiots. > > It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people > of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still > have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but > individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. I absolutely agree...however, my problem is not with anyone's individual beliefs, it is when people, without making the slightest effort to educate themselves, equate my efforts to arrive at a factual and scientific understanding of the world with their faith or religion. People can believe what they want about God or Buddha, but they should stay away from commenting on science until they understand it. Like Lennart said (if I understood him correctly) not all opinions have equal weight. Some are backed up by a more complete understanding. When someone says 'I believe science is the same as faith', they are betraying an obvious and extensive _lack_ of understanding of what science even means, at its most basic level. This is why, for example, I did not make any comments about religion, beyond what had already been established by its proponents, because I do not pretend to understand in the slightest why people believe what they do. I certainly would appreciate the same consideration from the non-scientific crowd. I don't care to change anyone's mind to think like me, but I'll be damned if I'll sit back and watch these insidious lies about science being spread around. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:42:23 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:42:23 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408144223.4c3581ea@teksavvy.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-08, James Knott wrote: > > Science requires people to think & challenge and not accept things > > because someone says so. > > Scientists living in Russia between 1930 and 1960 would be quite > likely to take exception to that claim, as the scientific > establishment, which was conspicuously NOT "religion-influenced," > arrested and executed scientists that challenged the status quo. > > Look up Lysenkoism and Lamarckism for more on this... Now that's just plain stupidity, sorry. You are blaming the actions of a totalitarian government on scientists. Use your brain. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:44:11 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:44:11 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DCF07B.8020809@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-08, James Knott wrote: > >> Science requires people to think & challenge and not accept things >> because someone says so. >> > > Scientists living in Russia between 1930 and 1960 would be quite > likely to take exception to that claim, as the scientific > establishment, which was conspicuously NOT "religion-influenced," > arrested and executed scientists that challenged the status quo. > > Look up Lysenkoism and Lamarckism for more on this... > That's an exception, where the government thought they could run science by decree, to support their political system. The Nazis did similar. Regardless, that corruption of scientific process does not imply all science is that way. Those scientists were persecuted because their research conflicted with what the government wanted. Centuries ago, it was the church they had to worry about, as Galileo discovered. On the other hand, religious belief has been stagnant for centuries and challenges to it have often been harshly dealt with. It also has nothing to support it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 18:48:13 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:48:13 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408144813.24623cd0@teksavvy.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, JoeHill wrote: > > Dave Germiquet wrote: > > > >> And a side note, > >> > >> Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you > >> get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. > > > > Now _I'm_ insulted. > > > > That is just not true _at all_. Science is based on verification through > > experimentation, and a good scientist takes _nothing_ on faith. Science is a > > question. It questions everything, including itself, constantly. These > > claims people make about science being based on faith betray an utter lack > > of understanding about what scientists actually do. > > > > This anti-science hogwash is fit for the dung-heap, and has been ever since > > it reared its ugly head with people like that mentally deranged Ronald > > Reagan almost 30 years ago. > > I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. I'll not add anything > further to this thread after that. > > I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except > for the "anti-science hogwash." It's not anti-science at all, in fact > it's proof. > How does that work exactly? > All science comes down to is this: A theory is valid and acceptable > until a better theory comes along. This requires a certain amount of > faith. Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very > difficult concepts. What is thought? How is that faith exactly? Sounds like a question to me. No one has given a single example of science making any claims based on faith. They just keep asking inane questions. ...and here's the difference, one more time, for the slow: where science does not have an answer, it says 'I don't know'. Religion has no such humility. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 19:01:45 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:01:45 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408144813.24623cd0-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> <20090408144813.24623cd0@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904081201v4bfccc19j26ff984bcada6b0d@mail.gmail.com> I don't want to be drawn into this. I don't believe it appropriate for this thread. Please direct further comments about my sub-thread(s) to my.inbox. Thanks. On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM, JoeHill wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, JoeHill wrote: >> > Dave Germiquet wrote: >> > >> >> And a side note, >> >> >> >> Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you >> >> get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. >> > [...] >> > This anti-science hogwash is fit for the dung-heap, and has been ever since >> > it reared its ugly head with people like that mentally deranged Ronald >> > Reagan almost 30 years ago. >> >> I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. ?I'll not add anything >> further to this thread after that. >> >> I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except >> for the "anti-science hogwash." ?It's not anti-science at all, in fact >> it's proof. >> > How does that work exactly? > >> All science comes down to is this: ?A theory is valid and acceptable >> until a better theory comes along. ?This requires a certain amount of >> faith. ?Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very >> difficult concepts. ?What is thought? > > How is that faith exactly? Sounds like a question to me. No one has given a > single example of science making any claims based on faith. They just keep > asking inane questions. The premise. A theory is valid until proven otherwise. My interpretation is that this means the belief you have in any given (current) theory may be misplaced. It may not in fact be valid. Lots of religions state things that may not be valid. I believe in the scientific method, but our theories are not complete. Whether religion can further the knowledge that we believe we have, remains to be seen. > ...and here's the difference, one more time, for the slow: where science does > not have an answer, it says 'I don't know'. Religion has no such humility. Religion by itself does not, but many representatives of the varied religions are. Individuals have humility, not sets of communities like "science" or "religion." I've met a great many people that I respect as much for their beliefs as for their humility. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 21:27:13 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:27:13 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0904081201v4bfccc19j26ff984bcada6b0d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> <20090408144813.24623cd0@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081201v4bfccc19j26ff984bcada6b0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I don't want to be drawn into this. ?I don't believe it appropriate > for this thread. > > Please direct further comments about my sub-thread(s) to my.inbox. ?Thanks. > Sorry, but you don't get to dictate when the thread ends, especially not when it's at your whim or for the convenience of your argument. > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM, JoeHill wrote: >> Scott Elcomb wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, JoeHill wrote: >>> > Dave Germiquet wrote: >>> > >>> >> And a side note, >>> >> >>> >> Everything all boils down to Faith...Even Faith in science, when you >>> >> get to the ROOT of everything its all based on Faith. >>> > > [...] >>> > This anti-science hogwash is fit for the dung-heap, and has been ever since >>> > it reared its ugly head with people like that mentally deranged Ronald >>> > Reagan almost 30 years ago. >>> >>> I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. ?I'll not add anything >>> further to this thread after that. >>> >>> I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except >>> for the "anti-science hogwash." ?It's not anti-science at all, in fact >>> it's proof. >>> >> How does that work exactly? >> >>> All science comes down to is this: ?A theory is valid and acceptable >>> until a better theory comes along. ?This requires a certain amount of >>> faith. ?Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very >>> difficult concepts. ?What is thought? >> >> How is that faith exactly? Sounds like a question to me. No one has given a >> single example of science making any claims based on faith. They just keep >> asking inane questions. > > The premise. ?A theory is valid until proven otherwise. ?My > interpretation is that this means the belief you have in any given > (current) theory may be misplaced. ?It may not in fact be valid. ?Lots > of religions state things that may not be valid. Your interpretation is wrong. There is no 'belief'. The theory either fits the available evidence, or it does not. The scientific method is really simple, and it has nothing to do with belief. Science predicts what can be verified with experimentation. It holds nothing on faith. Just because something that science has maintained as true can later turn out to be false _does not mean it was originally based on faith_. There is never a point where science stops and says 'we believe this', because any scientist knows that inevitably their knowledge is incomplete. > I believe in the scientific method, but our theories are not complete. > ?Whether religion can further the knowledge that we believe we have, > remains to be seen. > >> ...and here's the difference, one more time, for the slow: where science does >> not have an answer, it says 'I don't know'. Religion has no such humility. > > Religion by itself does not, but many representatives of the varied > religions are. ?Individuals have humility, not sets of communities > like "science" or "religion." ?I've met a great many people that I > respect as much for their beliefs as for their humility. > Now you're just dodging the point. You can prevaricate all you like, you've written nothing to demonstrate in any way that science relies on faith, you just keep repeating that it does. > -- > ?Scott Elcomb > ?http://www.psema4.com/ > ?@psema4 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 21:49:54 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:49:54 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DD1C02.1010400@rogers.com> Giles Orr wrote: > Could we drop this thread until someone has info from the CRTC? What, and ruin a good argument with facts??? ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:17:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:17:51 -0400 Subject: OT: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCD2E6.6020501-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090408161454.GU3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCD2E6.6020501@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090408221751.GV3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 12:37:58PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I can verify that Peach Pie Street and Treacle Mine Road exist.. > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/06/treacle_mine_road/ :) Well not in the same city name. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:21:34 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:21:34 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408222134.GW3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:11:20PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. I'll not add anything > further to this thread after that. > > I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except > for the "anti-science hogwash." It's not anti-science at all, in fact > it's proof. > > All science comes down to is this: A theory is valid and acceptable > until a better theory comes along. This requires a certain amount of > faith. Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very > difficult concepts. What is thought? Why can we question and > investigate things -- curiosities, origins, and even existence itself. > Science is great (I love it anyway) but it's hardly complete. That's why they call them theories. Some things they call laws. There is a difference. There seems to be very few things called laws. > As a person who's wanted to "be a scientist" since I was I child > (about 7yrs old) I don't see any conflict between these points of > view. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:23:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:23:53 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408144813.24623cd0-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> <20090408144813.24623cd0@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090408222353.GX3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:48:13PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > How is that faith exactly? Sounds like a question to me. No one has given a > single example of science making any claims based on faith. They just keep > asking inane questions. Certainly when science has a theory, they try to use the theory to predict future results, and then try to test those results. If the results match what the theory predicted, then it gains more acceptance. If the results contradict the theory, then the theory is revised or thrown out for failing to predict actual behaviour. > ...and here's the difference, one more time, for the slow: where science does > not have an answer, it says 'I don't know'. Religion has no such humility. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:27:12 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:27:12 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0904081201v4bfccc19j26ff984bcada6b0d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> <20090408144813.24623cd0@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081201v4bfccc19j26ff984bcada6b0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408222712.GY3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 03:01:45PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > The premise. A theory is valid until proven otherwise. My > interpretation is that this means the belief you have in any given > (current) theory may be misplaced. It may not in fact be valid. Lots > of religions state things that may not be valid. No theories are not valid until proven otherwise. Theories may be commonly accepted as likely to match reality until proven otherwise. And often some people don't accept them. It has nothing to do with being valid or not, just a case of being the best theory so far that matches all the known facts so far. If new facts don't fit the theory then a new one is needed. If new facts fit the theory, then the theory is doing well. > I believe in the scientific method, but our theories are not complete. > Whether religion can further the knowledge that we believe we have, > remains to be seen. Well given religion doesn't work when the scientific method is applied, then I think it is qutie clear that religion will be of no help at all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:30:05 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:30:05 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408223005.GZ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:36:29PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Scientists living in Russia between 1930 and 1960 would be quite > likely to take exception to that claim, as the scientific > establishment, which was conspicuously NOT "religion-influenced," > arrested and executed scientists that challenged the status quo. > > Look up Lysenkoism and Lamarckism for more on this... To some extent soviet communism was a cult/religion as much as any other. It told people what to think and what to believe in. They may specifically not have allowed religion in order to avoid competition from other established religions. Claiming it isn't one doesn't mean it isn't one. Claiming it is one doesn't mean it is either. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:35:37 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:35:37 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408223537.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:19:59PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > My Stand point still stands: > > Even the root of certain "Science" is faith. Can you tell me exactly > the root of everything? The root of the big bang? What caused the > initial explosion. Can you tell me the root of DNA or the root of the > amoeba..or even fuller. Can they tell you that the big bang happened? No, because they can't prove it. They can only show how measured facts match the theory that it did. > I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could > prove me right. The root of all belief of something is faith even > science. The error is in thinking science claims to be able to answer all questions. It does not. It aims to find explanations, but it can't always provide them. It can only provide educated guesses that fit the facts as well as they are known. For example: You need faith to believe in creation. You don't have to believe in the theory of evolution. You can choose to believe it is true, and it certainly seems to fit the evidence, but it is still just a (currently looking quite good) theory. No faith required. Just choice based on understanding the facts. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:35:53 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:35:53 -0400 Subject: threads In-Reply-To: <49DD1C02.1010400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081020q36468e64t4a0741c0257c28ba@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280904081024s214a127sd78314f76ed54b33@mail.gmail.com> <49DD1C02.1010400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DD26C9.9040709@tmis.ca> With forums, threads can continue ad infinitum. I asked about forums years ago, but most people want emails. James Knott wrote: > Giles Orr wrote: >> Could we drop this thread until someone has info from the CRTC? > > What, and ruin a good argument with facts??? ;-) > > -- [ Teddy David Mills System Administrator TMIS.ca ] [ Teddys Virtual Space of Sciences, Technology ] [ Music, Media, Linux and Open Source ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:42:08 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:42:08 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCE0D0.9090303-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090408224207.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:37:20PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone > else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes > the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people > getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) I will happily listen to peoples views and opinions. I don't care one bit about their beliefs, because those really can't be argued or backed up by anything and are hence irrelevant. > I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean > Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply > idiots. I think I was vaguely raised protestant. As I grew up and got a clue I realised it was all inconsistent and pointless. > It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people > of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still > have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but > individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. I don't think religion has any value that can't equaly be provided through communities that have nothing to do with believe or faith or any other religious aspects. This is not to say religion doesn't provide that value, just that I don't think providing that value does anything to overcome the harm it causes. Perhaps someone could explain what value it does provide (preferably value which couldn't be provided without the religious bits). > That's all I was trying to get at. Talk to people who believe things you > don't, don't simply shut them down with petty name calling. As I said above, belief really isn't relevant. It has nothing to do with facts and has no way to be argued. Name calling is unnecesary of course. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 22:44:01 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:44:01 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCDAFE.9070708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:12:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that > believe their's to be the only true one. That sort of position leads to > so much violence in this world. Are there any religions that don't claim that? I am afraid I don't know them all by far. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 23:52:29 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:52:29 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408224207.GB3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> <20090408224207.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DD38BD.9080901@alteeve.com> With apologies to those who want this thread dead. I think of GTALUG as a community though, and sometimes it's good for a community to get off topic for a spell. So long as it stays civil. :) Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:37:20PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >> What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone >> else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes >> the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people >> getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) > > I will happily listen to peoples views and opinions. I don't care one > bit about their beliefs, because those really can't be argued or backed > up by anything and are hence irrelevant. I feel the need to disagree. Someone's deeply held beliefs inform that persons way of life, opinions and actions. For that reason alone, if not the specific belief, their belief has value. An older person I speak to a lot has strong feelings about immigration and cultural integration. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic religious beliefs, but she does very strongly. By taking into account this, I can frame my views against her beliefs and affect change for the better. Isn't that then valuable? >> I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean >> Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply >> idiots. > > I think I was vaguely raised protestant. As I grew up and got a clue > I realised it was all inconsistent and pointless. For many people, particularly in times of extreme hardship, religion can be all they have. Would you tell someone whose belief that their dead children are in heaven that they're being close minded and irrational? You may *think* it, but you wouldn't say it because to that person in such a desperate situation it may be providing the only strength they have to wake in the morning. Again then, it has value, despite your or my views. >> It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people >> of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still >> have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but >> individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. > > I don't think religion has any value that can't equaly be provided through > communities that have nothing to do with believe or faith or any other > religious aspects. This is not to say religion doesn't provide that > value, just that I don't think providing that value does anything to > overcome the harm it causes. Perhaps someone could explain what value > it does provide (preferably value which couldn't be provided without > the religious bits). My sister-in-law lost her husband, 5 year old daughter and 2 year old son last month to a car accident. It's her belief that they are in heaven than lets her get out of bed. Personally, I can't think of a single "rational" argument that would let me go on at all. Her strength is in her beliefs. I don't share those beliefs, and would have no idea how I would go on. In that respect, her beliefs make her stronger than me. From a purely evolutionary perspective then her religious beliefs are more valuable than my rational beliefs. Does that alone not give them value? >> That's all I was trying to get at. Talk to people who believe things you >> don't, don't simply shut them down with petty name calling. > > As I said above, belief really isn't relevant. It has nothing to do > with facts and has no way to be argued. > > Name calling is unnecesary of course. Agreed, and it's below a group like GTALUG. To get back to my point, I think both sides would be well served to listen to each other. Does it not strike you as ironic that both sides in this argument simply dismiss each other? How can anything but crap come from that? Respect each other, that's all I ask. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 8 23:54:13 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:54:13 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408224401.GC3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:12:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that >> believe their's to be the only true one. That sort of position leads to >> so much violence in this world. > > Are there any religions that don't claim that? I am afraid I don't know > them all by far. > Buddhism. Intro section to the Tipitaka starts by saying, and I paraphrase, "Look, we did our best but this is a translation of an old text collection from oral histories. Try to learn, but take nothing as literal truth." Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 00:27:45 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:27:45 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <20090407203251.GM3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880@mail.gmail.com> Hi Len, Proc being made deprecated, are we talking the whole proc is being deprecated? What is it being replaced by? Where do I get started ?... Isn't proc used for debugging and dont other utilities like ps and free use this file system? Whats it being replaced with? On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 04:40:10PM +0000, Peter wrote: >> Why should ip replace the simple set of old tools ?! ip is quite complex and i >> cannot see it easily integrated into, f.ex. busybox, without creating unduely >> huge applications. > > Because ifconfig uses /proc and ip uses netlink. ?/proc is essentially > deprecated, has no ability to retrieve multiple pieces of data at once > without issues of syncrhonization. ?ifconfig doesn't show more than 9 > characters in an interface name (which is allowed 15). > > ip replaces ifconfig and ifrename and route and a number of other > tools, and is actually maintained and has new features being added. > ifconfig is simply obsolete and stagnent. > > Get used to ip because someday that's all you will have and it is already > a better and faster tool (parsing text from /proc is not an efficient > way to get data). > > Remember nslookup? ?Well its not there anymore, because it too was > replaced by a better tool. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 01:17:55 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:17:55 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCDE11.6020805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDE11.6020805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DD4CC3.70200@the-wire.com> James Knott wrote: > [ ... ] As an example look at how astrophysics progressed from > Kepler, Newton, Einstein and others. Kepler came up with circular > orbits, which was a big improvement over what had been claimed by the > church. Then Newton realized orbits were elliptical and also developed > the theory of gravity. [ ... ] Actually, it was Tycho de Brahe (along with many others) who thought orbits were circular, even though this theory didn't sit well with his exemplary observations of planetary motion. Kepler started by trying to find a circular-orbit theory that would account for Brahe's observations, and ended by showing that orbits had to be elliptical. Newton's gravitational theory finally provided a reason for why orbits should be that way. Arthur Koestler's fine book _The Sleepwalkers_ gives an account of how these ideas progressed. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 02:01:45 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:01:45 -0400 Subject: network problem In-Reply-To: <49DCE8CD.3040205-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC3336.1040406@utoronto.ca> <49DCD75B.7090003@rogers.com> <20090408131052.74698d05@teksavvy.com> <49DCE8CD.3040205@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49DD5709.9080704@utoronto.ca> Teddy Mills wrote: > > Was a mac hw address tied to a NIC in /etc/udev/netpersistent rules? Yes, /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules has a list of each of the box's 4 NICS. Networking was fully restarted on the machine multiple times. I watched as the switches were rebooted. And the original box was powered down, whilst the new box was rebooted (twice). Stumped. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 02:04:22 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:04:22 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DD57A6.2060604@utoronto.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi Len, > > Proc being made deprecated, are we talking the whole proc is being deprecated? > > What is it being replaced by? Where do I get started ?... > > Isn't proc used for debugging and dont other utilities like ps and > free use this file system? > > Whats it being replaced with? check /sys. sysctl -a will show all the available parameters that can be configured. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:14:41 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:14:41 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DDD8A1.3030400@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Actually it depends on what you want to believe. There are facts in > the bible that you can go out and prove. Christians call the people > who prove the bible Apologetics. > > I personally don't know much about the fact, but there are facts of > people, places, and history that is in the bible. > The earliest thing in the bible that can be supported by evidence is King David & Solomon. Of course that evidence is only that the men existed. There's nothing to show any "god". It's the same sort of thing as a fictional story that's been written around historical events. On the other hand, the evidence shows that the "Exodus" never occurred. Incidentally, there was a show recently on Nova about this. It was on again last night. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:17:02 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:17:02 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DDD92E.9080505@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > My Stand point still stands: > > Even the root of certain "Science" is faith. Can you tell me exactly > the root of everything? The root of the big bang? What caused the > initial explosion. Can you tell me the root of DNA or the root of the > amoeba..or even fuller. > > I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could > prove me right. The root of all belief of something is faith even > science. > There are a lot of things in science that are, as of yet, unknown. Some may always be unknown. However, knowledge is continually expanding and the edges being rolled back. Taking the position that if something is not know, it must be due to "god" is absolute garbage. If "god" did something, let's see some evidence. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:21:19 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:21:19 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DCE0D0.9090303-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DDDA2F.5060205@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: >> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish >> and close-minded. >> >> Madi > > What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone > else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it > closes the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in > people getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) > > I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean > Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were > simply idiots. > > It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people > of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I > still have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but > individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. > > That's all I was trying to get at. Talk to people who believe things > you don't, don't simply shut them down with petty name calling. > All I ask is they show some evidence to support their claims. So far, the evidence has been going the other way. Also, it is very easy for people to delude themselves into believing something. As an example, you may have heard of "miracles" where a statue or picture of the virgin Mary cried. Examination of such events show they are fraudulent. Yet, despite the fraud being proven, some people still insist it was a miracle. Their faith causes them to believe in a proven lie. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:22:56 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:22:56 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <99a6c38f0904081111g6323b4ej6d635135310f49be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DDDA90.70200@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'll reply to this and then to Giles' message. I'll not add anything > further to this thread after that. > > I agree with Dave and don't see any reason to disagree with you except > for the "anti-science hogwash." It's not anti-science at all, in fact > it's proof. > > All science comes down to is this: A theory is valid and acceptable > until a better theory comes along. This requires a certain amount of > faith. Consider that we, as a species, are still struggling with very > difficult concepts. What is thought? Why can we question and > investigate things -- curiosities, origins, and even existence itself. > Science is great (I love it anyway) but it's hardly complete. > > As a person who's wanted to "be a scientist" since I was I child > (about 7yrs old) I don't see any conflict between these points of > view. > > Theories are based on solid evidence to support them. As time goes on, the evidence gets better the theory updated. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:25:02 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:25:02 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408143937.1f4344de-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> <20090408143937.1f4344de@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49DDDB0E.9080503@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > > >> Madison Kelly wrote: >> >>> To me, I see anyone who dismisses the beliefs, or lack thereof, of >>> others with simple adjectives like "insane" as being equal foolish and >>> close-minded. >>> >>> Madi >>> >> What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone >> else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes >> the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people >> getting defensive. (run on sentence much?) >> >> I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean >> Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply >> idiots. >> >> It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people >> of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still >> have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but >> individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with. >> > > I absolutely agree...however, my problem is not with anyone's individual > beliefs, it is when people, without making the slightest effort to educate > themselves, equate my efforts to arrive at a factual and scientific > understanding of the world with their faith or religion. People can believe > what they want about God or Buddha, but they should stay away from commenting > on science until they understand it. Like Lennart said (if I understood him > correctly) not all opinions have equal weight. Some are backed up by a more > complete understanding. When someone says 'I believe science is the same as > faith', they are betraying an obvious and extensive _lack_ of understanding of > what science even means, at its most basic level. > > This is why, for example, I did not make any comments about religion, > beyond what had already been established by its proponents, because I do not > pretend to understand in the slightest why people believe what they do. I > certainly would appreciate the same consideration from the non-scientific crowd. > > I don't care to change anyone's mind to think like me, but I'll be damned if > I'll sit back and watch these insidious lies about science being spread > around. > > The big problem occurs when those people of faith insist on imposing their beliefs on others, all too often using violence to do so. If you want to believe in fairies, that's your business. When you try to force it on me, you're wrong. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:30:05 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:30:05 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408223537.GA3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCDC00.1040804@rogers.com> <32f6a8880904081019o242d5ef8i4284cf91d40c289b@mail.gmail.com> <20090408223537.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DDDC3D.7080401@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:19:59PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > >> My Stand point still stands: >> >> Even the root of certain "Science" is faith. Can you tell me exactly >> the root of everything? The root of the big bang? What caused the >> initial explosion. Can you tell me the root of DNA or the root of the >> amoeba..or even fuller. >> > > Can they tell you that the big bang happened? No, because they can't > prove it. They can only show how measured facts match the theory that > it did. > > >> I'm just a fool..someone with more intelligence about science could >> prove me right. The root of all belief of something is faith even >> science. >> > > The error is in thinking science claims to be able to answer all > questions. It does not. It aims to find explanations, but it can't > always provide them. It can only provide educated guesses that fit the > facts as well as they are known. > > For example: > You need faith to believe in creation. > > You don't have to believe in the theory of evolution. You can choose > to believe it is true, and it certainly seems to fit the evidence, > but it is still just a (currently looking quite good) theory. No faith > required. Just choice based on understanding the facts. > > There was a Nova show a while ago, about how some members of a Pennsylvania school board tried to get creation taught as science. It went to court and ended with the recommendation that those people be charged with perjury. As that was shown, they tried to pass off creationism as a science called "intelligent design". It was amazing at the extent they'd lie and misquote, to try to prove their case. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 11:33:39 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:33:39 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408224401.GC3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DDDD13.8040606@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:12:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that >> believe their's to be the only true one. That sort of position leads to >> so much violence in this world. >> > > Are there any religions that don't claim that? I am afraid I don't know > them all by far. > > As I understand it, this situation came about with the rise of monothesism. I don't know that Buddhists are so inclined. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 12:33:13 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DDDB0E.9080503-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> <20090408143937.1f4344de@teksavvy.com> <49DDDB0E.9080503@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DDEB09.5080100@alteeve.com> James Knott wrote: > The big problem occurs when those people of faith insist on imposing > their beliefs on others, all too often using violence to do so. If you > want to believe in fairies, that's your business. When you try to force > it on me, you're wrong. In this, I agree 100%. Same goes for political ideologies. If you want to talk, lets grab a coffee. You want to preach? Go away. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 14:08:02 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:08:02 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090409140802.GD3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 08:27:45PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Proc being made deprecated, are we talking the whole proc is being deprecated? Well the kernel developers certainly tend to resist anyone adding stuff to proc. But no ifconfig is being deprecated since the ip utils are the current and maintained way to manage networking. > What is it being replaced by? Where do I get started ?... > > Isn't proc used for debugging and dont other utilities like ps and > free use this file system? > > Whats it being replaced with? Well to a large extent /sys is replacing a lot of /proc, but /proc isn't going away any time soon. Just ifconfig. The fact that ifconfig uses /proc instead of netlink is a good reason for ifconfig to go away though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 14:08:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:08:40 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <49DD57A6.2060604-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880@mail.gmail.com> <49DD57A6.2060604@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090409140840.GE3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > check /sys. sysctl -a will show all the available parameters that can be > configured. sysctl surprisingly has nothing to do with /sys, but is actually for the old /proc/sys/ stuff. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 15:06:10 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:06:10 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DD38BD.9080901-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <49DCE0D0.9090303@alteeve.com> <20090408224207.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD38BD.9080901@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090409150610.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:52:29PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > With apologies to those who want this thread dead. I think of GTALUG as > a community though, and sometimes it's good for a community to get off > topic for a spell. > > So long as it stays civil. :) > > I feel the need to disagree. Someone's deeply held beliefs inform that > persons way of life, opinions and actions. For that reason alone, if not > the specific belief, their belief has value. It may have value to them, but really no relevance to anyone else. People who base their decisions on beliefs often make very bad decisions. > An older person I speak to a lot has strong feelings about immigration > and cultural integration. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic > religious beliefs, but she does very strongly. By taking into account > this, I can frame my views against her beliefs and affect change for the > better. Isn't that then valuable? Trying to understand someone elses point of view can be useful if you are trying to change their opinions. That doesn't make their beliefs valuable. It makes understanding their beliefs have some value however. > For many people, particularly in times of extreme hardship, religion can > be all they have. Would you tell someone whose belief that their dead > children are in heaven that they're being close minded and irrational? > You may *think* it, but you wouldn't say it because to that person in > such a desperate situation it may be providing the only strength they > have to wake in the morning. Again then, it has value, despite your or > my views. No I wouldn't tell them that, but I sure wouldn't agree with it either. I would probably just ignore them when they say such things. > My sister-in-law lost her husband, 5 year old daughter and 2 year old > son last month to a car accident. It's her belief that they are in > heaven than lets her get out of bed. Personally, I can't think of a > single "rational" argument that would let me go on at all. Her strength > is in her beliefs. Well that would be hard. I have no idea how being in heaven possibly makes things any better. On the other hand we have a wonderful world out there to explore with billions of people. There is a lot to see and learn. > I don't share those beliefs, and would have no idea how I would go on. > In that respect, her beliefs make her stronger than me. From a purely > evolutionary perspective then her religious beliefs are more valuable > than my rational beliefs. Does that alone not give them value? Again, her beliefs may have value to her. They do nothing for others. Beliefs are personal, and trying to inflict them on others is not a good thing in general. When people start making decisions based on beliefs then almost always cause harm to the world around them. > Agreed, and it's below a group like GTALUG. > > To get back to my point, I think both sides would be well served to > listen to each other. Does it not strike you as ironic that both sides > in this argument simply dismiss each other? How can anything but crap > come from that? Listening to opinions is useful. Listening to beliefs rarely is, except to try and understand someone to potentially change their mind. Telling people what to believe is what makes so many religions harmful. > Respect each other, that's all I ask. Well respect comes in varying amounts depending on your opinion of people. At least be civil to each other. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 15:10:09 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:10:09 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DD3925.9090708-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090409151009.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:54:13PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Buddhism. Intro section to the Tipitaka starts by saying, and I > paraphrase, "Look, we did our best but this is a translation of an old > text collection from oral histories. Try to learn, but take nothing as > literal truth." Well that seems fairly sensible. They also don't seem to be violent about religion. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 15:12:25 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:12:25 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DDDD13.8040606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DDDD13.8040606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090409151225.GH3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 07:33:39AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > As I understand it, this situation came about with the rise of > monothesism. I don't know that Buddhists are so inclined. So Christianity, Judaism and Islam pretty much? It does seem like the origin area of those 3 has been pretty much a war zone for centuries if not millennia. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 15:14:40 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:14:40 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DD3925.9090708-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:12:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that > >> believe their's to be the only true one. That sort of position leads to > >> so much violence in this world. > > > > Are there any religions that don't claim that? I am afraid I don't know > > them all by far. > > > > Buddhism. Intro section to the Tipitaka starts by saying, and I > paraphrase, "Look, we did our best but this is a translation of an old > text collection from oral histories. Try to learn, but take nothing as > literal truth." Well, what good is that? No one is going to kill or die for a religion like that ;) -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 16:38:15 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:38:15 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers business internet transfer limits? Message-ID: <49DE2477.6000107@ualberta.ca> Does anybody know what the transfer limit (in GB) per month is for their business internet services? Note: I'm not asking about the bandwidth. It's nowhere to be found on http://www.your.rogers.com/business/productsservices/internetservices/access/businessinternetaccess.asp and I figure I'll get the answer faster via this mailing list than by calling :) I'm considering Dedicated Lite to host some small web sites from.. anybody have any complaints (I mean other than the usual bad customer service)? Marc -- C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows your whole leg off. -- Bjarne Stroustrup -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 18:24:56 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:24:56 -0400 Subject: ifconfig data interpretation In-Reply-To: <20090409140840.GE3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090402221653.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090407203251.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081727p9f5c6edie039dde7ca2bd880@mail.gmail.com> <49DD57A6.2060604@utoronto.ca> <20090409140840.GE3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49DE3D78.2090208@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> check /sys. sysctl -a will show all the available parameters that can be >> configured. > > sysctl surprisingly has nothing to do with /sys, but is actually for > the old /proc/sys/ stuff. > Didn't know that. I assumed /proc/sys was a symlink to /sys without checking, thanks! Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 18:45:45 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:45:45 -0400 Subject: On... "How To Have A Reasoned Technical Discussion" Message-ID: We suffer from this fairly frequently; here's a different (but interesting) set of guidance that seems worth mentioning. http://al3x.net/2009/04/04/reasoned-technical-discussion.html# I like the list of questions to ask before hitting "send." The bulk of some of the discussions that have taken place lately wouldn't have been sent if the participants had taken questions like these ones seriously. Voila, "a brief reintroduction to logical thought and civil society," due to Alex Payne... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The next time you?re thinking about engaging in a technical discussion, run through these questions before you hit the ?post? button: 1. Are you responding to facts? With facts? 2. Have you read any primary source materials on the issue you?re discussing? 3. Do you have any first-hand experience with the technologies or ideas involved? 4. Do you have any first-hand experience with those technologies operating at the scale being discussed? 5. Have you contacted the individuals involved in the discussion for further information before making assumptions about their findings? 6. Are you falsely comparing technologies or ideas as if there was a zero-sum competition between them? 7. Are you addressing your peers with respect, courtesy, and humility? 8. Are you sure that what you?re posting is the best way to promote your self, product, project, or idea? Does it demonstrate you at your best? Et cetera, et cetera. Or, essentially, a brief reintroduction to logical thought and civil society. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 19:20:50 2009 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:20:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Job Posting for Unix Engineer Message-ID: Hello! A friend of mine is looking for a candidate for the following job description, and I thought I'd post it here, to see if any of you may be interested. If you are, please contact Andrew Yearwood (contact info is at the bottom of the description). pm -- Paul Mora Registered Linux user #2065 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix Engineer (Contractor) ? Infrastructure, reporting to Manager, Unix Services, will be part of Unix Infrastructure team that is currently supporting over 50 fully managed physical and virtual servers, storage, and backup devices running variety of infrastructure services. This position is a 6-month contract opportunity. Responsibilities: * Provide daily support of infrastructure systems, including participation in on-call pager rotation. Follow internal escalation procedures when necessary. Effectively engage 3rd party vendors to achieve quickest issue resolution under Fusepoint's SLA. * Design, implement, and document solutions to improve performance, stability and availability of Unix infrastructure, including SAN/NAS storage, backup, automation, email, monitoring, application and database systems. * Proactively identify performance, stability, and capacity issues in current Unix Infrastructure environments and prepare project plans and proposals for upgrades and improvements. * Ensure that proposed designs meet corporate requirements and best industry practices such as ITIL and can be implemented within the allocated budget and time constraints. Required Skills: * 8-10 years of progressive experience in the industry with at least 5 supporting Unix environments specifically Linux (Redhat) and Solaris. * Exposure to best industry practices in managing large number of Unix servers in high-availability datacenter environment. * Knowledge and experience supporting, deploying and designing solutions based on open-source applications. * Multitasking ? be able to handle multiple projects simultaneously and provide ongoing support for designed/implemented solutions. * Strong communication and team-player skills. Extensive hands-on experience with following technologies is critical in order for candidate to succeed in this position. * Solid grasp of various shared storage solutions (FC/iSCSI SAN and NFS/CIFS NAS). Specific experience with Netapp Filers (FAS 3020 and higher models) in clustered configurations is required. * Strong hands-on experience on building Fiber Channel SAN (fabric, zoning, masking, ISL) and on Brocade and Qlogic FC switches is required. * Practical experience supporting VMWare VI 3.x infrastructure, such as ESX, virtual centre, p2v,VMotion is required. * Experience supporting Veritas Netbackup up to version 6.5.x on client, master and media server side is necessary. Exposure to SAN direct backup to tape, NDMP and DeDup is an asset. * Solid grasp on components of end-to-end monitoring infrastructure based on syslog, SNMP MIB/Traps, and vendor monitoring tools. Experience with Nagios is required. Exposure to Netcool and/or other monitoring frameworks is an asset. * In-depth knowledge of traditional Unix infrastructure services, such as DNS/LDAP, SMTP/POP3 email, NTP is necessary. * Experience supporting provisioning systems, specifically kickstart and jumpstart. * Ability to build custom packages using RPM and Solaris packaging formats. Experience maintaining patching infrastructure based on revision control, yum, mrepo is an required. * Advanced level of scripting skills (Perl, shell, python, PHP) is required. * Strong grasp of Unix security: OS and application hardening, main types of attacks and responses to system compromises, proactive penetration testing. Proficiency with host based intrusion detection and prevention tools, such as Tripwire, iptables and SELinux is an asset. * Experience with enterprise hardware from major vendors (Sun, HP, Dell, IBM) Nice-to-have: * Experience with Opsware Automation System or another datacenter automation framework is highly desirable. * Experience with Netflow, ColdFusion, web-analytics (Urchin) is an asset. * Experience with blade technology is an asset. * Networking knowledge on a level of CCNA with understanding of how different network devices (such as routers, switches, firewalls, load-balancing) can be used to create end-to-end infrastructure. * Certifications in Linux/Unix/Storage/Virtualization, such as RHCT, RHCA, SCNA, SCSA, VCP are an asset. Contact Information: Andrew A. Yearwood Executive Recruiter/Headhunter CQ Search Group Ltd. 2120 Matheson Blvd. E Second floor Suite 200 (905) 712 8000 ext 242 (905) 712 8100 facsimile (416) 569 4131 mobile andrew-9mE23gmFGbBWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 19:34:48 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:34:48 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers business internet transfer limits? In-Reply-To: <49DE2477.6000107-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DE2477.6000107@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49DE4DD8.2000909@rogers.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > Does anybody know what the transfer limit (in GB) per month is for their > business internet services? Note: I'm not asking about the bandwidth. > > It's nowhere to be found on > http://www.your.rogers.com/business/productsservices/internetservices/access/businessinternetaccess.asp > and I figure I'll get the answer faster via this mailing list than by > calling :) > > I'm considering Dedicated Lite to host some small web sites from.. > anybody have any complaints (I mean other than the usual bad customer > service)? > > Marc > The limit depends on the service agreement, just like home users. You'll have to call them. Unlike Sympatico, calling Rogers support is not painful. They're located in Toronto and generally good. Some of them even speak Linux. ;-) My Rogers cable modem service at home is much more reliable than the Sympatico ADSL service at work. I also recently set up a large installation for a customer in Toronto. Even though the package, as a whole, was sold by Bell, the customer insisted on using Rogers for internet access. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 20:41:06 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:41:06 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090409111440.0f505f04-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Guys, All I have to comment is. I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally would never have understood. It all depends on if you pass things off not god just because you don't want to believe. Miracles happen every day. Jesus makes himself known through everyday life.... People just need to open there eyes. And sometimes science matches religion, sometimes its theories contradict. Because of my faith, he makes himself known. On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:14 AM, JoeHill wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:12:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> >> Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you but rather those that >> >> believe their's to be the only true one. ?That sort of position leads to >> >> so much violence in this world. >> > >> > Are there any religions that don't claim that? ?I am afraid I don't know >> > them all by far. >> > >> >> Buddhism. Intro section to the Tipitaka starts by saying, and I >> paraphrase, "Look, we did our best but this is a translation of an old >> text collection from oral histories. Try to learn, but take nothing as >> literal truth." > > Well, what good is that? No one is going to kill or die for a religion like > that ;) > > -- > J > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 20:53:05 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:53:05 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:41:06PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > All I have to comment is. > > I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff > that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally > would never have understood. Did you run a control group to verify you wouldn't have understood it otherwise? If not, then you don't have proof, just an unverifiable theory. You are probably just a bit smarter than you give yourself credit for. Believe in yourself. > It all depends on if you pass things off not god just because you > don't want to believe. Miracles happen every day. Jesus makes himself > known through everyday life.... No it's just a matter of actually paying attension and seeing what really happened. > People just need to open there eyes. And sometimes science matches > religion, sometimes its theories contradict. > > Because of my faith, he makes himself known. I always wonder if there are any religions that aren't so male oriented. Certainly the greeks and romans had multiple gods, with a few being female, but most being male. Probably just a result of which gender tends to be in charge and make up the rules. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 20:57:46 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:57:46 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DE614A.2050604@alteeve.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi Guys, > > All I have to comment is. > > I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff > that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally > would never have understood. > > It all depends on if you pass things off not god just because you > don't want to believe. Miracles happen every day. Jesus makes himself > known through everyday life.... > > People just need to open there eyes. And sometimes science matches > religion, sometimes its theories contradict. > > Because of my faith, he makes himself known. There is a story I heard years ago, and I think it's a good analogy for religion or the lack thereof. Imaging a city. Now image a town to the north and a town to the south. If two people, one from either town, went to the city, they'd be traveling in completely different directions. Even so, neither is going the wrong way. For some, pure science is their route to the city, and the city being an understanding of big questions like "why do we exist?". For others, like yourself, Christian teachings is your route. Others have different ways again. None are wrong for the simple reason that no one can ever really know the answer. Heck, even Stephen Hawking, an atheist, has said that what we study does not preclude the existence of a creator. It does however try to understand this existence. In the same way that I argued for the atheist-mided folk here not to simply dismiss your belief in a creator, I would ask that you in turn not dismiss their lack of belief as simply being because they've not accepted your god as their saviour. Your beliefs work for you. Respect that theirs works for them. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 21:26:04 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:26:04 -0400 Subject: On... "How To Have A Reasoned Technical Discussion" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, These are fine guidelines, but I think the solution to the recent CRTC -> religion thread is easier. If the topic of a thread has substantially changed, as a favour to the readers of the list, please start a new thread. And feel free to do this another mailing list. :) Thanks. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 21:54:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:54:53 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DE614A.2050604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <49DE614A.2050604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090409215452.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:57:46PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > There is a story I heard years ago, and I think it's a good analogy for > religion or the lack thereof. > > Imaging a city. Now image a town to the north and a town to the south. > If two people, one from either town, went to the city, they'd be > traveling in completely different directions. Even so, neither is going > the wrong way. > > For some, pure science is their route to the city, and the city being an > understanding of big questions like "why do we exist?". For others, like > yourself, Christian teachings is your route. Others have different ways > again. None are wrong for the simple reason that no one can ever really > know the answer. I think perhaps the question "why do we exist?" is simply a pointless question. If we didn't exist then we wouldn't be here to wonder why we exist. Perhaps going to the city isn't actually the right way to go in the first place. You could even get into philosophy and start to wonder "Do we exist?". > Heck, even Stephen Hawking, an atheist, has said that what we study does > not preclude the existence of a creator. It does however try to > understand this existence. Certainly a god or gods may exist, but there is no apparent testable evidence of it, so it isn't currently a particularly good theory. I will not claim god(s) do(es) not exist, but I certainly won't believe in it or do things by faith. > In the same way that I argued for the atheist-mided folk here not to > simply dismiss your belief in a creator, I would ask that you in turn > not dismiss their lack of belief as simply being because they've not > accepted your god as their saviour. Your beliefs work for you. Respect > that theirs works for them. If the world worked like it does in the discworld novels, then gods exist because people believe in them, rather than people believing in them because they exist. I think that if there is someone/something(s) in control of reality, then it/they doesn't care one bit what each individual collection of water and carbon based molecules on one particular rock is up to. We are just a result of the current state of the universe. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 22:12:19 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:12:19 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090409205305.GI3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:41:06PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: >> All I have to comment is. >> >> I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff >> that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally >> would never have understood. > > Did you run a control group to verify you wouldn't have understood > it otherwise? ?If not, then you don't have proof, just an unverifiable > theory. ?You are probably just a bit smarter than you give yourself > credit for. ?Believe in yourself. > There are many christians who have there prayers answer daily. You could consider that a control group. For me? Time and time again Jesus is there for me and has undoubtedly answers my prayers a number of times. That is proof enough for me, the way he's changed my life and the way he's changed others. My everyday of life and thought pattern since i've followed him as improved. So belief? My belief stands because he's always been there for me even when I think he's not. Every time a prayer is answered it is more proof every day. And I've seen the same situation with other Christians. Think of it this way. Jesus wants to have a relationship with us, its up to us if we choose to believe and have faith. Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 22:15:15 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:15:15 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lennart, Guys. Anyway this has gone way off topic :) I just wanted to stand up and say something about what I feel needed to be said. Its only up to the individual to believe. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 23:01:04 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hello Beautiful People !!! In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Wow my first day on the thread as a new member to the Linux group and we're debating the creator and religion! Hello everyone, great to be in the company of open minded passionate people! I've joined this group to develop a deeper understanding of Linux. I am a Slackware oldie but newbee, and currently CentOS has caught my attention! I am here out of selfish reason to learn how to be a better Linux administrator with CentOS. I plan to use these skills to manage my website down the road. What I need to figure out is how to use the capabilities of virtulization or maybe it's clustering to use multiplte servers at the software level to create a load-balanced environment? For example, creating a online group that will require more server overtime to accomodate the demand of increased traffic and increased storage. How could one go about getting this done? I plan to go with a host and start off with a single server and later add server as required. Is there a way for me to scale easily without the use of handware other than the servers? Is there any opensource software that will allow me to do this using a GUI tool on CentOS in particual? Thanks for your assistance in this matter and I hope I can contribute to the group as my skills develop. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav ________________________________ From: Dave Germiquet To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:15:15 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: scary things at CRTC Hi Lennart, Guys. Anyway this has gone way off topic :) I just wanted to stand up and say something about what I feel needed to be said. Its only up to the individual to believe. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 9 23:14:32 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:14:32 -0400 Subject: Hello Beautiful People !!! In-Reply-To: <35275.39066.qm-ocD5SZSfVawHBU+L9ui1Svu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> Welcome to the list! A topic I know others will raise; Please send email in plain-text format, not HTML. Several people here use text-only mail readers. Dev Guy wrote: > Wow my first day on the thread as a new member to the Linux group and > we're debating the creator and religion! GTALUG is a community. :) > Hello everyone, great to be in the company of open minded passionate > people! I've joined this group to develop a deeper understanding of > Linux. I am a Slackware oldie but newbee, and currently CentOS has > caught my attention! Welcome back! > I am here out of selfish reason to learn how to be a better Linux > administrator with CentOS. I plan to use these skills to manage my > website down the road. Ultimately we're all here for the "selfish" reason of wanting help. > What I need to figure out is how to use the capabilities of > virtulization or maybe it's clustering to use multiplte servers at the > software level to create a load-balanced environment? For example, > creating a online group that will require more server overtime to > accomodate the demand of increased traffic and increased storage. How > could one go about getting this done? You need to understand the differences between virtual servers and load balancing. Virtual servers: These are machine installed inside a virtualized environment like Xen, VMWare and so on. The major benefit of this is that the entire "machine" is really just a file. You can very easily back this up, move this between hardware machines and so forth. It is primarily a convenience thing. For example, when your underlying hardware no longer provides fast enough performance, you can build a new machine with new hardware and an updated OS and, when you are ready, simply copy the virtual machine's file over and start it up. No need to worry about all the wierd and esoteric changes you've made over the years. Clustering: This is done for one of two reasons; the first being for spreading the load out among multiple machines and the second is ensure your services are provided even when a given server blows up with little to no downtime. In either case, multiple virtual machines on one server will provide no such benefit. > I plan to go with a host and start off with a single server and later > add server as required. Is there a way for me to scale easily without > the use of handware other than the servers? Are you planning to run a custom written application? If so, it needs to be designed for some form of clustering and/or fail-over. If you are using a canned application, you will need to ensure that it supports the same or that it can be supported by something like heartbeat/HA-Linux. > Is there any opensource software that will allow me to do this using a > GUI tool on CentOS in particual? Again, depends on what you want your cluster to do. In some cases though, yes. Look at: http:///ha-linux.org > Thanks for your assistance in this matter and I hope I can contribute to > the group as my skills develop. > > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav Something to keep in mind; Clustering introduces many new points of failure. They are something that need to be carefully studying and planned for. Specifically, is the added complexity and risk sufficiently offset by some benefit? Ask yourself; "Would a second spare server that periodically copies the changed files from the main server act as a sufficient spare?". Ask other similar questions. In all cases, choose the simplest solution that addresses your needs and you will be a happy admin. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 00:23:01 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:23:01 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DE9165.60103@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi Guys, > > All I have to comment is. > > I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff > that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally > would never have understood. > > It all depends on if you pass things off not god just because you > don't want to believe. Miracles happen every day. Jesus makes himself > known through everyday life.... > > People just need to open there eyes. And sometimes science matches > religion, sometimes its theories contradict. > > Because of my faith, he makes himself known. > > Prove it. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 00:36:03 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:36:03 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DE614A.2050604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <49DE614A.2050604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DE9473.4030602@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Dave Germiquet wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> All I have to comment is. >> >> I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff >> that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally >> would never have understood. >> >> It all depends on if you pass things off not god just because you >> don't want to believe. Miracles happen every day. Jesus makes himself >> known through everyday life.... >> >> People just need to open there eyes. And sometimes science matches >> religion, sometimes its theories contradict. >> >> Because of my faith, he makes himself known. > > There is a story I heard years ago, and I think it's a good analogy > for religion or the lack thereof. > > Imaging a city. Now image a town to the north and a town to the south. > If two people, one from either town, went to the city, they'd be > traveling in completely different directions. Even so, neither is > going the wrong way. > > For some, pure science is their route to the city, and the city being > an understanding of big questions like "why do we exist?". For others, > like yourself, Christian teachings is your route. Others have > different ways again. None are wrong for the simple reason that no one > can ever really know the answer. > > Heck, even Stephen Hawking, an atheist, has said that what we study > does not preclude the existence of a creator. It does however try to > understand this existence. As in these quotes from him? "What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary." "The intelligent beings in these regions should therefore not be surprised if they observe that their locality in the universe satisfies the conditions that are necessary for their existence. It is a bit like a rich person living in a wealthy neighborhood not seeing any poverty." "One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics." As I mentioned in another note, there was a situation in a Pennsylvania school board about promoting creationism. One thing that was very apparent was the way the creationists would take a scientists words out of context to twist them into an opposite meaning. If you read Stephen Hawkings books, as I have, you may find he's not such a keen believer in a god. He also mentions how a recent pope tried to dissuade him from trying to research events prior to the big bang, as that was "god's domain". > > In the same way that I argued for the atheist-mided folk here not to > simply dismiss your belief in a creator, I would ask that you in turn > not dismiss their lack of belief as simply being because they've not > accepted your god as their saviour. Your beliefs work for you. Respect > that theirs works for them. > One big difference is that science is based observable fact and is repeatable. Religion??? -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 00:38:23 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:38:23 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DE94FF.2090900@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:41:06PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: >> >>> All I have to comment is. >>> >>> I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff >>> that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally >>> would never have understood. >>> >> Did you run a control group to verify you wouldn't have understood >> it otherwise? If not, then you don't have proof, just an unverifiable >> theory. You are probably just a bit smarter than you give yourself >> credit for. Believe in yourself. >> >> > > There are many christians who have there prayers answer daily. You > could consider that a control group. For me? Time and time again Jesus > is there for me and has undoubtedly answers my prayers a number of > times. That is proof enough for me, the way he's changed my life and > the way he's changed others. My everyday of life and thought pattern > since i've followed him as improved. > > So belief? My belief stands because he's always been there for me even > when I think he's not. Every time a prayer is answered it is more > proof every day. > > And I've seen the same situation with other Christians. > > Think of it this way. Jesus wants to have a relationship with us, its > up to us if we choose to believe and have faith. > > In another note I mentioned "believers" who insisted an obvious fraud was a miracle. Is that another proof of faith? What about the shroud of Turin, which turned out to be a fake, after the church proclaimed it genuine for many centuries? Another example of faith? Or more likely delusion??? -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 01:09:24 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:09:24 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49DE614A.2050604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DBC3DD.4080607@chrisaitken.net> <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <49DE614A.2050604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DE9C44.3080100@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > > Heck, even Stephen Hawking, an atheist, has said that what we study > does not preclude the existence of a creator. It does however try to > understand this existence. > Further on Stephen Hawing, when you read his books, you'll find him referring to creation myths and "god" as a metaphor. In his "theory of everything", he works to reduce everything into a set of laws that everything obeys. That sort of thing doesn't leave much room for any god. If everything obeys the laws, then there's no god doing magic tricks. As another example of faith, many people think that miracles can be performed at Lourdes. However, Carl Sagan took the number of Lourdes miracles recognized by the church and found that the miracle rate was less than the natural remission rate. Further, you're more likely to die from travel accidents to/from Lourdes than you were to find a miracle cure there. Also, many people have claimed such a miracle cure. How many times has something that's easily verified, such as the regrowing of an amputated limb been demonstrated? If none, then "god" must be very selective in handing out miracles. Religion is an insult to intelligence and reason. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 02:23:34 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 22:23:34 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DEADA6.3010306@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:41:06PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: >> >>> All I have to comment is. >>> >>> I have had prayers answered, simple ones that saved my life. Stuff >>> that couldn't just be coincidence. I've understood things, I normally >>> would never have understood. >>> >> Did you run a control group to verify you wouldn't have understood >> it otherwise? If not, then you don't have proof, just an unverifiable >> theory. You are probably just a bit smarter than you give yourself >> credit for. Believe in yourself. >> >> > > There are many christians who have there prayers answer daily. You > could consider that a control group. You apparently don't understand the function of a control group. For example, when a drug company wants to test a new drug, they have at least two similar groups. One gets the new drug and the control group gets a placebo or an existing drug. The participants must not know what group they are in, nor can the people who administer the drugs or collect the results. This is to reduce the possibility of the placebo effect or "adjusting" the data. They then compare the results of the groups, not any individual within either group. You cannot take only the results of one person to say the drug does or doesn't work. It has to be based on the comparison of groups of people. Now in those people who say their prayers were answered, how do you know the result wouldn't have been the same if they didn't pray. How many times did they pray and not get the results they wanted? It's human nature to remember the successes and not the failures. To validate prayer, you'd have to divide the people into two groups, one that prays and one that doesn't and compare the results. You also have to be aware of the placebo effect. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 02:57:03 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hello Beautiful People !!! In-Reply-To: <49DE8158.4070702-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <223875.44812.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Madi, thank you for your input and welcoming me to the group =) .... I am feeling ignored and think maybe I should start up a thread off topic ;) ... the religion thread is getting a lot of participation, people love to share. I wish there was this much excitement about linux. Maybe we can start a thread off topic about which gender is better next? or what race is more superior! Rajinder ________________________________ From: Madison Kelly To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:14:32 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Hello Beautiful People !!! Welcome to the list! A topic I know others will raise; Please send email in plain-text format, not HTML. Several people here use text-only mail readers. Dev Guy wrote: > Wow my first day on the thread as a new member to the Linux group and we're debating the creator and religion! GTALUG is a community. :) > Hello everyone, great to be in the company of open minded passionate people! I've joined this group to develop a deeper understanding of Linux. I am a Slackware oldie but newbee, and currently CentOS has caught my attention! Welcome back! > I am here out of selfish reason to learn how to be a better Linux administrator with CentOS. I plan to use these skills to manage my website down the road. Ultimately we're all here for the "selfish" reason of wanting help. > What I need to figure out is how to use the capabilities of virtulization or maybe it's clustering to use multiplte servers at the software level to create a load-balanced environment? For example, creating a online group that will require more server overtime to accomodate the demand of increased traffic and increased storage. How could one go about getting this done? You need to understand the differences between virtual servers and load balancing. Virtual servers: These are machine installed inside a virtualized environment like Xen, VMWare and so on. The major benefit of this is that the entire "machine" is really just a file. You can very easily back this up, move this between hardware machines and so forth. It is primarily a convenience thing. For example, when your underlying hardware no longer provides fast enough performance, you can build a new machine with new hardware and an updated OS and, when you are ready, simply copy the virtual machine's file over and start it up. No need to worry about all the wierd and esoteric changes you've made over the years. Clustering: This is done for one of two reasons; the first being for spreading the load out among multiple machines and the second is ensure your services are provided even when a given server blows up with little to no downtime. In either case, multiple virtual machines on one server will provide no such benefit. > I plan to go with a host and start off with a single server and later add server as required. Is there a way for me to scale easily without the use of handware other than the servers? Are you planning to run a custom written application? If so, it needs to be designed for some form of clustering and/or fail-over. If you are using a canned application, you will need to ensure that it supports the same or that it can be supported by something like heartbeat/HA-Linux. > Is there any opensource software that will allow me to do this using a GUI tool on CentOS in particual? Again, depends on what you want your cluster to do. In some cases though, yes. Look at: http:///ha-linux.org > Thanks for your assistance in this matter and I hope I can contribute to the group as my skills develop. > > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav Something to keep in mind; Clustering introduces many new points of failure. They are something that need to be carefully studying and planned for. Specifically, is the added complexity and risk sufficiently offset by some benefit? Ask yourself; "Would a second spare server that periodically copies the changed files from the main server act as a sufficient spare?". Ask other similar questions. In all cases, choose the simplest solution that addresses your needs and you will be a happy admin. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 03:17:55 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:17:55 -0400 Subject: Hello Beautiful People !!! In-Reply-To: <223875.44812.qm-ocD5SZSfVayORdMXk8NaZPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> <223875.44812.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DEBA63.1060201@alteeve.com> *Please* send mail to this list in plain-text! Dev Guy wrote: > Hi Madi, > > thank you for your input and welcoming me to the group =) .... I am > feeling ignored and think maybe I should start up a thread off topic ;) > ... the religion thread is getting a lot of participation, people love > to share. I wish there was this much excitement about linux. > > Maybe we can start a thread off topic about which gender is better next? > or what race is more superior! > > Rajinder Being new to this list, it is understandable that you not may realize the rarity that threads of this sort occur. If you're interest is primarily how many people reply, a place like fark.com would be more suitable. :) As for this group, I think part of what contributes to the lack of responses are: - Most people left after work for a vacation/cottage for the long weekend. - Your message got filtered as spam for being HTML - Your message started as a reply to a thread that many here are ignoring. Some suggestions; - Start a new post fresh to 'tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org'. - Ask specific Linux-type questions. - Wait for replies through the long weekend. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 05:24:07 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:24:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Proper subject/topic naming (was "Re:Hello Beautiful People !!!") In-Reply-To: <49DEBA63.1060201-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> <223875.44812.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DEBA63.1060201@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DED7F7.3010301@ualberta.ca> On 09/04/09 11:17 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > *Please* send mail to this list in plain-text! It would be nice if everyone used more appropriate naming for subjects, or either renamed them or prefixed them when the topic changes drastically or goes completely off-topic, too. For example, I suggest "scary things at CRTC" be renamed to "OT: Existential Theology" or "OT: The Philosophy of Religion" or something along those lines. >> thank you for your input and welcoming me to the group =) .... I am >> feeling ignored and think maybe I should start up a thread off topic >> ;) ... the religion thread is getting a lot of participation, people >> love to share. I wish there was this much excitement about linux. I read your subject "Hello Beautiful People" and the first paragraph .. didn't exactly make me think it would have a question about virtualization in it, so I skipped it. This is a high-volume, high-member list.. you'll have to help us filter through the posts by choosing a relevant subject :) >> Maybe we can start a thread off topic about which gender is better >> next? or what race is more superior! My thoughts exactly. These "discussions" would be a little less distracting if people properly renamed the subjects once the discussion flies into to Never Never Land.. and the OT prefix is used whenever a discussion starts or becomes off-topic. Marc -- C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows your whole leg off. -- Bjarne Stroustrup -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 05:31:47 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:31:47 -0400 Subject: Hello Beautiful People !!! In-Reply-To: <49DEBA63.1060201-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> <223875.44812.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DEBA63.1060201@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49DED9C3.4040702@dinamis.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > As for this group, I think part of what contributes to the lack of > responses are: > > - Most people left after work for a vacation/cottage for the long weekend. > - Your message got filtered as spam for being HTML > - Your message started as a reply to a thread that many here are ignoring. > > Some suggestions; > > - Start a new post fresh to 'tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org'. > - Ask specific Linux-type questions. > - Wait for replies through the long weekend. Let me add a few more reasons why people might be ignoring the message and suggestions for asking questions that might get responses. In addition to the reasons listed above, people might be ignoring the message because: * The subject line could easily be misconstrued as or automatically filtered as spam. Three exclamation marks and a subject line that reveals nothing of the purpose of the message, well, perhaps other than it's one that I might want to ignore, doesn't help. * There were no specific questions in your (the original poster's, not Madi's) message and all indications were that you had not done any meaningful research. Some suggestions in addition to the above for improving the chances of getting responses: * Use meaningful subject lines. * Do your own research first before asking questions. Even a cursory Google search for red+hat+cluster or red+hat+virtualization would, in a matter of seconds, turn up more information than most people would have the time or the inclination to impart on a mailing list. You may also find more joy on the appropriate Red Hat lists, not that this list doesn't have many people with a diverse range of skills who might be able to help. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 05:43:01 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:43:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers business internet transfer limits? In-Reply-To: <49DE4DD8.2000909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DE2477.6000107@ualberta.ca> <49DE4DD8.2000909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DEDC65.3010701@ualberta.ca> On 09/04/09 03:34 PM, James Knott wrote: > The limit depends on the service agreement, just like home users. But isn't it a set limit per service, and there are only a few services? I thought I could get an example of what to expect.. like if anybody uses one of them, could they tell me what the limit is? I'm kind of surprised they don't have that info on their web site... but I guess I'll call if I have to. > You'll > have to call them. Unlike Sympatico, calling Rogers support is not > painful. They're located in Toronto and generally good. Some of them > even speak Linux. ;-) Calling Rogers is not painful? You and I have had quite different experiences with Rogers. I moved to Toronto in September.. I didn't have a bill without an error on it until February. We called 2-3 times on average per month, everyone gave us a different answer, and they were just not helpful and not polite. Over and over we had to talk to managers for stupid little things that they kept screwing up. Everyone else I know who has had Rogers has reported similar experiences with their customer service. Was a drastic change coming from Shaw in Edmonton. But yes, I would still prefer cable over DSL any day, so we've stuck it through with Rogers.. but I would switch to Cogeco in a heartbeat if they offered service here -- well, maybe not a heartbeat, we'd have to wait out our contract so as not to get nailed with penalties. Were you referring to the Business Service people in particular? Marc -- C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows your whole leg off. -- Bjarne Stroustrup -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 08:37:42 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 04:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Proper subject/topic naming (was "Re:Hello Beautiful People !!!") In-Reply-To: <49DED7F7.3010301-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCDAFE.9070708@rogers.com> <20090408224401.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DD3925.9090708@alteeve.com> <20090409111440.0f505f04@teksavvy.com> <32f6a8880904091341m56d53f9ct4d33cef966e5ad2b@mail.gmail.com> <20090409205305.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904091512g7705cd52lfed6bb3c2beec666@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904091515w4d2dc6f7i525cf155a266a82b@mail.gmail.com> <35275.39066.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DE8158.4070702@alteeve.com> <223875.44812.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49DEBA63.1060201@alteeve.com> <49DED7F7.3010301@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 09/04/09 11:17 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: >> *Please* send mail to this list in plain-text! > > It would be nice if everyone used more appropriate naming for subjects, or > either renamed them or prefixed them when the topic changes drastically or > goes completely off-topic, too. It would also be nice if people followed the guidelines in the .sig of every TLUG message: ...wrap text below 80 columns -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 11:06:42 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:06:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers business internet transfer limits? In-Reply-To: <49DEDC65.3010701-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DE2477.6000107@ualberta.ca> <49DE4DD8.2000909@rogers.com> <49DEDC65.3010701@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49DF2842.2050909@rogers.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 09/04/09 03:34 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> The limit depends on the service agreement, just like home users. > > But isn't it a set limit per service, and there are only a few > services? I thought I could get an example of what to expect.. like if > anybody uses one of them, could they tell me what the limit is? > > I'm kind of surprised they don't have that info on their web site... > but I guess I'll call if I have to. > >> You'll >> have to call them. Unlike Sympatico, calling Rogers support is not >> painful. They're located in Toronto and generally good. Some of them >> even speak Linux. ;-) > > Calling Rogers is not painful? You and I have had quite different > experiences with Rogers. I moved to Toronto in September.. I didn't > have a bill without an error on it until February. We called 2-3 times > on average per month, everyone gave us a different answer, and they > were just not helpful and not polite. Over and over we had to talk to > managers for stupid little things that they kept screwing up. Everyone > else I know who has had Rogers has reported similar experiences with > their customer service. Was a drastic change coming from Shaw in > Edmonton. I have dealt with Sympatico many times. It's rarely a pleasant experience. > > But yes, I would still prefer cable over DSL any day, so we've stuck > it through with Rogers.. but I would switch to Cogeco in a heartbeat > if they offered service here -- well, maybe not a heartbeat, we'd have > to wait out our contract so as not to get nailed with penalties. > > Were you referring to the Business Service people in particular? > > Marc > No. I was referring to Rogers in general. I have been a user of their services for many years and I speak from experience when I say their support people are much better than Sympatico. I've also dealt with Primus, on behalf of a friend and while they're helpful, the problem is getting hold of them. Be prepared to spend a *LONG* time on hold. Perhaps you can read War and Peace while waiting. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 17:07:23 2009 From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:07:23 -0400 Subject: no SATA In-Reply-To: <20090406195110.GL3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> <20090406175940.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <8369b0fa0904061230n72192d98q3b76e730e117d999@mail.gmail.com> <20090406195110.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <8369b0fa0904101007r29047b41o5945f90040db1fc8@mail.gmail.com> It is a WD Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS - 00A780 and there is no jumper across any of the jumper pins. As I mentioned, it was working fine in a windows box. On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 03:30:44PM -0400, edward chin wrote: >> I can't get wine to run lspci >> >> kernel is 2.6.27-11-generic > > OK, so quite recent kernel, and nvidia sata controller. > > What kind of disk is it? > > It appears that the disk isn't happy about running in SATA1 mode, and > hence lots of complaints about the link. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 17:46:24 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:46:24 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages Message-ID: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> One thing I've noticed in the recent discussions is that some messages are significantly delayed. In one example, a message I had sent last night arrived this morning, over 12 hours later. Here's a few of the header lines: Received: from 206.108.5.1 (EHLO rock.ss.org) (206.108.5.1) by mta107.rog.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:15:49 -0700 Received: by rock.ss.org (Postfix) id E87F8311F5; Thu, 9 Apr 2009 21:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-to: route-tlug-JcsaL2wEbRNAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org Received: by rock.ss.org (Postfix, from userid 54) id E167C311F6; Thu, 9 Apr 2009 21:09:28 -0400 (EDT) It would appear that rock.ss.org received the message and then sat on it for almost 12 hours. I have only noticed this behaviour with the TLUG list and it doesn't happen with all messages. Any ideas? -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 10 18:35:06 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:35:06 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <49DF85F0.4030106-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > One thing I've noticed in the recent discussions is that some messages > are significantly delayed. In one example, a message I had sent last > night arrived this morning, over 12 hours later. Here's a few of the > header lines: > > > > I have only noticed this behaviour with the TLUG list and it doesn't > happen with all messages. > > Any ideas? I've noticed a general slowdown of email over the last week as well. It may be just coincidence, but Rogers has been rolling out a new antivirus solution to its Windows customers since the beginning of April and certainly our mail would have to traverse those servers. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 15:35:46 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:35:46 -0400 Subject: April / May topics Message-ID: <1239464146.13312.64.camel@leon> Hi all, I'm looking forward to the April presentation on backups by Robert Brockway on Tuesday. I know that you are too, because Robert will show us how to keep those treasured digital family photos (and other files) safe. Details here: http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Meetings:2009-04 We still seek a presenter and topic for May. Please volunteer and / or suggest compelling topics and speakers. Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 17:03:05 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:03:05 -0400 Subject: Intel Looks To Make Large Contribution To GCC Message-ID: <7c50d3570904111003h40f4c813odddac97242cbfdac@mail.gmail.com> Just found this story online, here is a brief quote, link to the story will follow: "Intel contributes quite a bit to the development of X.Org and the Linux kernel, through a number of Intel employees working on Linux full-time, making hardware contributions, etc. Up until recently, Intel even had its own Linux distribution (Moblin) for their Atom hardware. One area, however, where Intel has not been a major contributor is with the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) considering they have long preferred their own high-performance Intel Compiler (ICC)." http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzE5Nw Melanie Blower's announcement: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2009-04/msg00336.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 18:38:15 2009 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:38:15 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? Message-ID: <49E0E397.4050503@chrisaitken.net> Is there something analogous to MS Publisher in OO? In case I've posed the wrong question, let me tell you what it is that I want to do: I want to create posters (flyers, coupons, posters with or without tear-off phone numbers) for my piano tuning business. What I /do/ have going for me is a very nice logo that my brother made (which he sends me as .jpg, .tif or anything else I might need). That he is my brother is germane here in that he won't charge me a penny, so I don't like to ask too much. I hope there is no one here that thinks that not charging me is precisely why I /should/ use him extensively. ;) I am seeing that even 12 yr olds are doing in school what I cannot do at home: combining pictures, words and photographs in any arrangement on a page (including text on top of pictures). My sad attempts in OO Writer to make posters have presented me with challenges such as the following: - I can type under or over my logo.jpg but not beside it. [The 12 yr olds tell me they can easily type anything over, under, beside, or on any image.] - I get images from the Internet but they have 'copyright' (or somesuch) stamped across them. [The 12 yr olds tell me they just get images from google and easily (legally?) strip the unwanted text from them.] Here's an example of what I would like to do: Make a poster with my logo, add '$10 off for new clients' (this text anywhere on any angle I like), and add an image of a section of a piano keyboard (I don't have such an image). If you suggest I use GIMP I will probably just bite the bullet and hire an artist. I know my limitations - I've seen the set up dialogue for GIMP and I am not going there. I do have a Windows machine but I use it solely for music recording (as linux gave me too much grief in that area) - I've been advised to keep it that way. So, I gotta do this on linux. Any help would be appreciated. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 18:39:41 2009 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:39:41 -0400 Subject: Linux / linux Message-ID: <49E0E3ED.7010208@chrisaitken.net> Does linux begin with an uppercase or lowercase 'L'? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 18:54:29 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:54:29 -0400 Subject: Linux / linux In-Reply-To: <49E0E3ED.7010208-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E0E3ED.7010208@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Does linux begin with an uppercase or lowercase 'L'? A visit to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux shows multiple instances of 'Linux' and only a few occurrences of 'linux', specifically when it's part of a filename or the ?Clinux name. So, 'Linux' appears to be the preferred choice. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 18:56:20 2009 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:56:20 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? In-Reply-To: <49E0E397.4050503-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E0E397.4050503@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49E0E7D4.2080804@alteeve.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Is there something analogous to MS Publisher in OO? If you really want something like MS Publisher, try Scribus! Its a Desktop publishing suite. As for using OO.org Write, Look up a tutorial. I recently had to do that to get my OO Resume' to look like my .html Resume'. I found out about Frames where you can set how the text goes around or over it. There are also Floating Frames, which should overlay an image easily. The tutorials will better explain then and other features that I coulden't tell you enough about. Anyone know a good link? Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 19:30:32 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:30:32 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <49DF915A.2020708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49E0EFD8.3030407@rogers.com> John McGregor wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> One thing I've noticed in the recent discussions is that some messages >> are significantly delayed. In one example, a message I had sent last >> night arrived this morning, over 12 hours later. Here's a few of the >> header lines: >> >> >> >> I have only noticed this behaviour with the TLUG list and it doesn't >> happen with all messages. >> >> Any ideas? > I've noticed a general slowdown of email over the last week as well. > It may be just coincidence, but Rogers has been rolling out a new > antivirus solution to its Windows customers since the beginning of > April and certainly our mail would have to traverse those servers. > Wouldn't that AV software be installed on the user's computer and not the servers? Also, wouldn't that affect all email, and not just TLUG? As the headers I included showed, it was about 12 hours from when that other server to when Rogers received it. So, the delay is apparently outside of Rogers. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 19:37:20 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:37:20 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? In-Reply-To: <49E0E397.4050503-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E0E397.4050503@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49E0F170.50203@rogers.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Is there something analogous to MS Publisher in OO? If you can't do what you want with Writer or Impress, then you might want to try Scribus. www.scribus.net -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 19:42:04 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:42:04 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <49E0EFD8.3030407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> <49E0EFD8.3030407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090411154204.68578088@teksavvy.com> James Knott wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > > James Knott wrote: > >> One thing I've noticed in the recent discussions is that some messages > >> are significantly delayed. In one example, a message I had sent last > >> night arrived this morning, over 12 hours later. Here's a few of the > >> header lines: > >> > >> > >> > >> I have only noticed this behaviour with the TLUG list and it doesn't > >> happen with all messages. > >> > >> Any ideas? > > I've noticed a general slowdown of email over the last week as well. > > It may be just coincidence, but Rogers has been rolling out a new > > antivirus solution to its Windows customers since the beginning of > > April and certainly our mail would have to traverse those servers. > > > > Wouldn't that AV software be installed on the user's computer and not > the servers? Not necessarily. When I was with Sympatico they put in a predictably bad system for filtering viruses and such at the server level. It very badly fuxored my e-mail because it added all kinds of non-compliant headers that Spamassassin really hated. > Also, wouldn't that affect all email, and not just TLUG? In my case, it was only certain lists that were affected: those that used Spamassassin to filter mail. A few lists started dropping my mails, especially those on Sourceforge. > As the headers I included showed, it was about 12 hours from when that > other server to when Rogers received it. So, the delay is apparently > outside of Rogers. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 20:29:36 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:29:36 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <49E0EFD8.3030407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> <49E0EFD8.3030407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49E0FDB0.4040105@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Wouldn't that AV software be installed on the user's computer and not > the servers? Also, wouldn't that affect all email, and not just TLUG? > As the headers I included showed, it was about 12 hours from when that > other server to when Rogers received it. So, the delay is apparently > outside of Rogers. > I assume that since email is sent to their web interface first or simultaneously, Rogers would find it expedient to shove all mail through its internal antivirus servers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 21:15:59 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:15:59 -0400 Subject: Linux / linux In-Reply-To: <49E0E3ED.7010208-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E0E3ED.7010208@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49E1088F.8080407@rogers.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Does linux begin with an uppercase or lowercase 'L'? > Uppercase if typed on a Microsoft box (so the spell checker doesn't flag it). Sane operating systems recognize its importance without the pretension of unneeded capitalization. :) John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 21:58:37 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:58:37 -0400 Subject: Linux / linux In-Reply-To: <49E0E3ED.7010208-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E0E3ED.7010208@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49E1128D.4070502@rogers.com> Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Does linux begin with an uppercase or lowercase 'L'? Yes. ;-) Actually, I'd suspect that since it's based on a person's name, it's "L", just as his name would be. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 21:59:51 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:59:51 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <20090411154204.68578088-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> <49E0EFD8.3030407@rogers.com> <20090411154204.68578088@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49E112D7.1020405@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > >> John McGregor wrote: >> >>> James Knott wrote: >>> >>>> One thing I've noticed in the recent discussions is that some messages >>>> are significantly delayed. In one example, a message I had sent last >>>> night arrived this morning, over 12 hours later. Here's a few of the >>>> header lines: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have only noticed this behaviour with the TLUG list and it doesn't >>>> happen with all messages. >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>> I've noticed a general slowdown of email over the last week as well. >>> It may be just coincidence, but Rogers has been rolling out a new >>> antivirus solution to its Windows customers since the beginning of >>> April and certainly our mail would have to traverse those servers. >>> >>> >> Wouldn't that AV software be installed on the user's computer and not >> the servers? >> > > Not necessarily. When I was with Sympatico they put in a predictably bad system > for filtering viruses and such at the server level. It very badly fuxored my > e-mail because it added all kinds of non-compliant headers that Spamassassin > really hated. > > >> Also, wouldn't that affect all email, and not just TLUG? >> > > In my case, it was only certain lists that were affected: those that used > Spamassassin to filter mail. A few lists started dropping my mails, especially > those on Sourceforge. > > I guess we'll have to see if anyone else is noticing this and, if so, who their ISP is. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 22:37:02 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:37:02 -0400 Subject: Linux / linux In-Reply-To: References: <49E0E3ED.7010208@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <49E11B8E.6010304@telly.org> Alex Beamish wrote: > So, 'Linux' appears to be the preferred choice. > Indeed. Using the capitalized version also enforces the fact that "Linux" is actually "Linux?", a registered trademark in many countries belonging to Linus Torvalds and administered by the Linux Mark Institute (now a part of the Linux Foundation) -- http://www.linuxmark.org Use of small-l "linux" implies that it is a generic term, which it is certainly not. HTH - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 11 23:43:28 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:43:28 -0400 Subject: Delayed messages In-Reply-To: <49E0FDB0.4040105-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49DF85F0.4030106@rogers.com> <49DF915A.2020708@rogers.com> <49E0EFD8.3030407@rogers.com> <49E0FDB0.4040105@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49E12B20.9050407@rogers.com> John McGregor wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> Wouldn't that AV software be installed on the user's computer and not >> the servers? Also, wouldn't that affect all email, and not just >> TLUG? As the headers I included showed, it was about 12 hours from >> when that >> other server to when Rogers received it. So, the delay is apparently >> outside of Rogers. >> > I assume that since email is sent to their web interface first or > simultaneously, Rogers would find it expedient to shove all mail > through its internal antivirus servers. > As I mentioned, it's only this list that has this issue. Also the headers on one message showed about 12 hours from when rock.ss.org received it and when it was sent to rogers/yahoo. This message I'm responding to appears to have taken 2.5 hours. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 12 15:36:07 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:36:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for more (very) local wireless info. Message-ID: I am looking to tweak settings of my wireless network and to do that I want more information about the nearby wireless networks. My network at present is a 802.11g hub down in the basement, my laptop which gets shifted around the house (and as the weather gets better may make visits to the back yard). In addition there are occasional visitors to the network, like my brother's laptop. I have some 802.11g PCI desktop PC cards that I may bring into play. But as most of my work is done on a conventional (wired) desktop machine the wireless network is lightly used. Still, I would like things to perform as well as possible, without spending any additional money. Even early on a Sunday morning a run of "Scan for Networks" under KWiFiManager will turn up 17 networks in my area, and I have seen over 50 networks in my area. Given that 802.11g has 11 channels available to it, 50+ networks means everyone's slice of those channels will be limited. KWiFiManager tells me four things about the local networks, their name, what mode do they use, the signal strength and is WEP encryption turned on. This is all useful information but not enough for my tweeking purposes. So, to start with, I want to find software that will tell me: - Which channels are most heavily used (if say 90% of all the networks are on channel 1, I will happily set my network to channel 11 :-) )? - What is the volume of traffic going over each channel (again I want to avoid the high traffic channels)? - How much 802.11b vs. 802.11g traffic is on a channel (802.11b and 802.11g can coexist on a channel, at the expense of 802.11g performance)? In other words I want the tools that will let me make smart picks regarding how to get the best performance I can out of what I have. Before anyone says something like "Why not just go to the new 802.11n stuff?", my answer is, I can not cost justify that (I would need to buy a new hub and network cards), given that my funds are very tight, and the wireless network is lightly used. Further, these same sorts of issues will no doubt show up in the 802.11n world sooner or later (802.11n has a larger number frequencies, few users (at least for now) and higher performance to start with). Thanks. Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 12 15:52:38 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:52:38 -0400 Subject: Looking for more (very) local wireless info. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E20E46.8090702@utoronto.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > I am looking to tweak settings of my wireless network and to do that I > want more information about the nearby wireless networks. > > My network at present is a 802.11g hub down in the basement, my laptop > which gets shifted around the house (and as the weather gets better > may make visits to the back yard). In addition there are occasional > visitors to the network, like my brother's laptop. I have some 802.11g > PCI desktop PC cards that I may bring into play. But as most of my > work is done on a conventional (wired) desktop machine the wireless > network is lightly used. Still, I would like things to perform as well > as possible, without spending any additional money. > > Even early on a Sunday morning a run of "Scan for Networks" under > KWiFiManager will turn up 17 networks in my area, and I have seen over > 50 networks in my area. Given that 802.11g has 11 channels available > to it, 50+ networks means everyone's slice of those channels will be > limited. > > KWiFiManager tells me four things about the local networks, their > name, what mode do they use, the signal strength and is WEP encryption > turned on. This is all useful information but not enough for my > tweeking purposes. > > So, to start with, I want to find software that will tell me: > > - Which channels are most heavily used (if say 90% of all the networks > are on channel 1, I will happily set my network to channel 11 :-) )? > - What is the volume of traffic going over each channel (again I want > to avoid the high traffic channels)? > - How much 802.11b vs. 802.11g traffic is on a channel (802.11b and > 802.11g can coexist on a channel, at the expense of 802.11g > performance)? > > In other words I want the tools that will let me make smart picks > regarding how to get the best performance I can out of what I have. > > Before anyone says something like "Why not just go to the new 802.11n > stuff?", my answer is, I can not cost justify that (I would need to > buy a new hub and network cards), given that my funds are very tight, > and the wireless network is lightly used. Further, these same sorts of > issues will no doubt show up in the 802.11n world sooner or later > (802.11n has a larger number frequencies, few users (at least for now) > and higher performance to start with). Channels 6 and 11 are pretty cluttered I find. But Wifi is imprecise anyways, so you'll get interference from strong APs on channels 5 and 7 if you're on 6. I don't find it really impacts things much, I have about the same number of networks available from where I live. Check the amount of traffic using Kismet. You'll find that despite the fact that there might be 50 networks, maybe 10% of those are in active use (based solely on packet count). Pick a channel with the least amount of traffic and you're all set. Keep in mind that if there are 4 APs on channel 6 with strong signals versus 7 looks empty, it might be better to choose something that is a few channels away from 6 even if it has another AP or two on it. With all that in mind, I can honestly say that the amount of time and effort put into tuning things might not be worth it for you as Wifi (at least with my simple consumer hardware) has proven to be nothing but reliable despite the large number of users (and cordless phones) in my area. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 12 15:57:44 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:57:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for more (very) local wireless info. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E20F78.3030201@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > I am looking to tweak settings of my wireless network and to do that I > want more information about the nearby wireless networks. > > My network at present is a 802.11g hub down in the basement, my laptop > which gets shifted around the house (and as the weather gets better > may make visits to the back yard). In addition there are occasional > visitors to the network, like my brother's laptop. I have some 802.11g > PCI desktop PC cards that I may bring into play. But as most of my > work is done on a conventional (wired) desktop machine the wireless > network is lightly used. Still, I would like things to perform as well > as possible, without spending any additional money. > I haven't seen many hubs lately. Switches have been around for years. > Even early on a Sunday morning a run of "Scan for Networks" under > KWiFiManager will turn up 17 networks in my area, and I have seen over > 50 networks in my area. Given that 802.11g has 11 channels available > to it, 50+ networks means everyone's slice of those channels will be > limited. > Those channels, dating back to the 802.11 (no b, g etc.) days, when you'd get 1 or 2 Mb bandwidth. With 802.11b & g, the channels overlap. The only way to avoid overlap is to choose channels that are sufficiently separated. Generally, channels 1,6 & 11 are use. However, if all those see heavy use, you might chose an in between channel. > KWiFiManager tells me four things about the local networks, their > name, what mode do they use, the signal strength and is WEP encryption > turned on. This is all useful information but not enough for my > tweeking purposes. > > So, to start with, I want to find software that will tell me: > > - Which channels are most heavily used (if say 90% of all the networks > are on channel 1, I will happily set my network to channel 11 :-) )? > - What is the volume of traffic going over each channel (again I want > to avoid the high traffic channels)? > - How much 802.11b vs. 802.11g traffic is on a channel (802.11b and > 802.11g can coexist on a channel, at the expense of 802.11g > performance)? > You might try Kismet. > In other words I want the tools that will let me make smart picks > regarding how to get the best performance I can out of what I have. > > Before anyone says something like "Why not just go to the new 802.11n > stuff?", my answer is, I can not cost justify that (I would need to > buy a new hub and network cards), given that my funds are very tight, > and the wireless network is lightly used. Further, these same sorts of > issues will no doubt show up in the 802.11n world sooner or later > (802.11n has a larger number frequencies, few users (at least for now) > and higher performance to start with). > > Many newer WiFi routers and access points have the ability to automatically switch to least used channels. Also, 802.11n may be on the same 2.4 GHz band as used by b & g, which means the same interference issues remain. The problem is less on the 5 GHz band used by 802.11a. Also, WiFi is subject to interference from other devices that share the spectrum, such as cordless phones, baby monitors, microwave ovens etc. There is also some overlap between the 2.4 GHz band and an amateur radio band. In that situation, the amateur radio users have priority over WiFi and if there's any interference to amateur radio, you have to use other channels. WiFi users do not get any interference protection from any source. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 12 20:46:47 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:46:47 -0400 Subject: nearly-local filesharing Message-ID: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> hey everyone, a bunch of neighbours on my street all keep their media files in digital format on their pc's. often we want to share those files with each other, or check something out while we're at each other's houses. currently, we burn dvd's or cd's to do so, but it'd be really cool if we could access each other's files from the various computers. I'm the only linux uses, the others are mostly on PC and I think there's one Mac. Currently I have two ideas for this: 1- a password-protected ftp site running off of my server -- if someone wants to share a file, they put it on the server in advance and then others can access it using ftp. 2 - some kind of small bittorrent tracker running on the above-mentioned server. For now at least i'd like it to be a private service, limited to our neighbourhood. Seems to me neither solution is perfect. I really don't want to get into trouble in regards to my terms of service with teksavvy, or to bring down The Man on our little filesharing group. I'd also like to have the load be distributed rather than centralized, so I'm not so pleased with the ftp option. But I just wondered whether anyone else had tried something similar, and what your experience was. And especially if you have some better suggestions than these! thanks, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 12 21:11:20 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:11:20 -0400 Subject: nearly-local filesharing In-Reply-To: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> References: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <7c50d3570904121411r4a9b8de0nc47bfdf3a94bda50@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 16:46, Matt Price wrote: > hey everyone, > > a bunch of neighbours on my street all keep their media files in digital > format on their pc's. ?often we want to share those files with each > other, or check something out while we're at each other's houses. > currently, we burn dvd's or cd's to do so, but it'd be really cool if we > could access each other's files from the various computers. > > I'm the only linux uses, the others are mostly on PC and I think there's > one Mac. > I would have suggested GigaTribe (http://www.gigatribe.com/en/home), but it's Windows only...so Mac & Linux users would be left out. I also found the following: http://odeo.com/episodes/23470780-Share-Files-Between-Computers-Mac-Linux-and-Windows And: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1163653.html And, if you have patience...take a look through the google results: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ei=U1jiSen0DMPonQfqp-GwCQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=file+sharing+between+Windows,+Linux,+and+Macs+-bittorrent&spell=1 -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 00:51:25 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:51:25 -0400 Subject: nearly-local filesharing In-Reply-To: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> References: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090412205125.5566ca2d.tleslie@tcn.net> i think novell iFolder is designed to do exactly this, but i guess the issue would be, you have to trust it will stay in the "area" on your disk you designate, and not let neighbours also see your personal files. its in mono, and runs on mac/win/linux, its open source. -tl On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:46:47 -0400 Matt Price wrote: > hey everyone, > > a bunch of neighbours on my street all keep their media files in digital > format on their pc's. often we want to share those files with each > other, or check something out while we're at each other's houses. > currently, we burn dvd's or cd's to do so, but it'd be really cool if we > could access each other's files from the various computers. > > I'm the only linux uses, the others are mostly on PC and I think there's > one Mac. > > Currently I have two ideas for this: > > 1- a password-protected ftp site running off of my server -- if someone > wants to share a file, they put it on the server in advance and then > others can access it using ftp. > > 2 - some kind of small bittorrent tracker running on the above-mentioned > server. For now at least i'd like it to be a private service, limited > to our neighbourhood. > > Seems to me neither solution is perfect. I really don't want to get > into trouble in regards to my terms of service with teksavvy, or to > bring down The Man on our little filesharing group. I'd also like to > have the load be distributed rather than centralized, so I'm not so > pleased with the ftp option. But I just wondered whether anyone else > had tried something similar, and what your experience was. And > especially if you have some better suggestions than these! thanks, > > matt > > > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 02:04:34 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:04:34 -0400 Subject: nearly-local filesharing In-Reply-To: <20090412205125.5566ca2d.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> <20090412205125.5566ca2d.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <7c50d3570904121904r461c1ad6web161fb0733dd3c2@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 20:51, ted leslie wrote: > i think novell iFolder is designed to do exactly this, > but i guess the issue would be, you have to trust it will stay in the "area" on your disk you designate, and > not let neighbours also see your personal files. > its in mono, and runs on mac/win/linux, its open source. > > -tl Do you know of a free alternative that runs on Windows? -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 02:22:06 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:22:06 -0400 Subject: nearly-local filesharing In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570904121904r461c1ad6web161fb0733dd3c2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1239569207.12317.1718.camel@localhost> <20090412205125.5566ca2d.tleslie@tcn.net> <7c50d3570904121904r461c1ad6web161fb0733dd3c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090412222206.d034064d.tleslie@tcn.net> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:04:34 -0400 Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 20:51, ted leslie wrote: > > i think novell iFolder is designed to do exactly this, > > but i guess the issue would be, you have to trust it will stay in the "area" on your disk you designate, and > > not let neighbours also see your personal files. > > its in mono, and runs on mac/win/linux, its open source. > > > > -tl > > Do you know of a free alternative that runs on Windows? > > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > it is free and run on all three major o/s, or more (sun, unix, etc), any that run mono/.Net. http://www.ifolder.com/ i do see some references where they charge for iFolder, but thats just if you want support, or a pro version or something. -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 14:32:45 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:32:45 -0400 Subject: no SATA In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0904101007r29047b41o5945f90040db1fc8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0904061055n5a3d012dp953428f2b00005e6@mail.gmail.com> <20090406175940.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <8369b0fa0904061230n72192d98q3b76e730e117d999@mail.gmail.com> <20090406195110.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <8369b0fa0904101007r29047b41o5945f90040db1fc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090413143245.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 01:07:23PM -0400, edward chin wrote: > It is a WD Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS - 00A780 > and there is no jumper across any of the jumper pins. > > As I mentioned, it was working fine in a windows box. Sure, but unless that windows box uses identical hardware, it doesn't mean anything. Try jumpering pin 5 and 6 together on the drive to force it into SATA 1 mode, since that seems to be what your motherboard supports and the drive is SATA II. You will have to find a jumper from some other HD though since I don't think it comes with any. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 14:43:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for more (very) local wireless info. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090413144332.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 11:36:07AM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > I am looking to tweak settings of my wireless network and to do that I > want more information about the nearby wireless networks. > > My network at present is a 802.11g hub down in the basement, my laptop > which gets shifted around the house (and as the weather gets better > may make visits to the back yard). In addition there are occasional > visitors to the network, like my brother's laptop. I have some 802.11g > PCI desktop PC cards that I may bring into play. But as most of my > work is done on a conventional (wired) desktop machine the wireless > network is lightly used. Still, I would like things to perform as well > as possible, without spending any additional money. > > Even early on a Sunday morning a run of "Scan for Networks" under > KWiFiManager will turn up 17 networks in my area, and I have seen over > 50 networks in my area. Given that 802.11g has 11 channels available > to it, 50+ networks means everyone's slice of those channels will be > limited. So given the non overlapping channels are 1, 6 and 11, that's a lot of networks per usable channel. Sounds like a busy area you are in. Unless you were willing to spend the money to go to 5ghz 802.11a or 802.11n (the 5ghz version), you probably won't be able to do much to get good performance from wireless. > KWiFiManager tells me four things about the local networks, their > name, what mode do they use, the signal strength and is WEP encryption > turned on. This is all useful information but not enough for my > tweeking purposes. > > So, to start with, I want to find software that will tell me: > > - Which channels are most heavily used (if say 90% of all the networks > are on channel 1, I will happily set my network to channel 11 :-) )? > - What is the volume of traffic going over each channel (again I want > to avoid the high traffic channels)? > - How much 802.11b vs. 802.11g traffic is on a channel (802.11b and > 802.11g can coexist on a channel, at the expense of 802.11g > performance)? I have no idea, since I haven't looked for such tools ever. > In other words I want the tools that will let me make smart picks > regarding how to get the best performance I can out of what I have. > > Before anyone says something like "Why not just go to the new 802.11n > stuff?", my answer is, I can not cost justify that (I would need to > buy a new hub and network cards), given that my funds are very tight, > and the wireless network is lightly used. Further, these same sorts of > issues will no doubt show up in the 802.11n world sooner or later > (802.11n has a larger number frequencies, few users (at least for now) > and higher performance to start with). 802.11n also runs on both 2.4 and 5ghz, and most cheap 802.11n equipement only supports 2.4ghz, which is where all the existing networks are. Only the highend 802.11n equipment does 5ghz and hence avoids the busy channels. To make things worse, 802.11n uses twice the channel space in 2.4ghz than 802.11b and g. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 18:20:24 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency Message-ID: Hi everyone. My two year old daughter was hospitalised on the weekend following an accident. She will be making a full recovery over the next couple of weeks but as a result I will be unable to attend the meeting on Tuesday and give my presentation. I'm very sorry for the short notice. My talk is complete and I'd be happy to do it at a future meeting. Perhaps Colin could conduct a UU style meeting. Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 18:23:25 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:23:25 -0400 Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1239647005.13312.288.camel@leon> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 14:20 -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi everyone. My two year old daughter was hospitalised on the weekend > following an accident. She will be making a full recovery over the next couple > of weeks but as a result I will be unable to attend the meeting on Tuesday and > give my presentation. > > I'm very sorry for the short notice. My talk is complete and I'd be happy to > do it at a future meeting. No problem. Have her get well soon. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 18:38:25 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:38:25 -0400 Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E386A1.9000107@telly.org> Hi all, If there is interest, I can provide an update of what is going on at ICANN and the root servers; especially the many technical and political issues behind the move to create a new swarm of top-level domain names. I've had the information at hand for a while and can do this on short notice. I this something TLUGgers would want to hear? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 18:55:12 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:55:12 -0400 Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency In-Reply-To: <49E386A1.9000107-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49E386A1.9000107@telly.org> Message-ID: <49E38A90.5050600@ualberta.ca> On 13/04/09 02:38 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi all, > > If there is interest, I can provide an update of what is going on at > ICANN and the root servers; especially the many technical and political > issues behind the move to create a new swarm of top-level domain names. > > I've had the information at hand for a while and can do this on short > notice. > > I this something TLUGgers would want to hear? > I would certainly attend. Marc -- An organisation that treats its programmers as morons will soon have programmers that are willing and able to act like morons only. -- Bjarne Stroustrup -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 18:56:51 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency Message-ID: <678875.36537.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Robert, my prayers are with you for your Daughter's speedy recovery.. I hope nothing traumatic resulted out of this for her. I would be very interested in hearing you speak on backup in the future. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Mon, 4/13/09, Robert Brockway wrote: > From: Robert Brockway > Subject: [TLUG]: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency > To: "TLUG mailing list" > Received: Monday, April 13, 2009, 2:20 PM > Hi everyone.? My two year old > daughter was hospitalised on the weekend following an > accident.? She will be making a full recovery over the > next couple of weeks but as a result I will be unable to > attend the meeting on Tuesday and give my presentation. > > I'm very sorry for the short notice.? My talk is > complete and I'd be happy to do it at a future meeting. > > Perhaps Colin could conduct a UU style meeting. > > Rob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 19:01:51 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is a TLUG (general) meeting still on? Message-ID: <605786.79842.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I am willing to attend just to meet some new faces and talk Linux. If there will be a meeting I would like to attend. Cheers, Rajinder Yadav --- On Mon, 4/13/09, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > From: Evan Leibovitch > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Monday, April 13, 2009, 2:38 PM > Hi all, > > If there is interest, I can provide an update of what is > going on at > ICANN and the root servers; especially the many technical > and political > issues behind the move to create a new swarm of top-level > domain names. > > I've had the information at hand for a while and can do > this on short > notice. > > I this something TLUGgers would want to hear? > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo..com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 19:07:08 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:07:08 -0400 Subject: Is a TLUG (general) meeting still on? In-Reply-To: <605786.79842.qm-ocD5SZSfVawA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <605786.79842.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1239649628.13312.290.camel@leon> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 12:01 -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > Hi, > > I am willing to attend just to meet some new faces and talk Linux. If > there will be a meeting I would like to attend. There will be a meeting. See you there. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 19:12:01 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:12:01 -0400 Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency In-Reply-To: <49E386A1.9000107-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49E386A1.9000107@telly.org> Message-ID: <1239649921.13312.295.camel@leon> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 14:38 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi all, > > If there is interest, I can provide an update of what is going on at > ICANN and the root servers; especially the many technical and political > issues behind the move to create a new swarm of top-level domain names. > > I've had the information at hand for a while and can do this on short > notice. > > I this something TLUGgers would want to hear? Dear All, I recommend that we accept Evan's generous offer for an ICANN update. Perhaps we can also have an open floor question and answer as well. So bring your Q's and A's and we'll see if we can't match some of them up. Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 19:39:51 2009 From: matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Matthew Middleton) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:39:51 -0400 Subject: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency In-Reply-To: <1239649921.13312.295.camel@leon> References: <49E386A1.9000107@telly.org> <1239649921.13312.295.camel@leon> Message-ID: <000301c9bc6f$9e5fccc0$3a08a8c0@newdesktop> Agreed - the talk sounds interesting! -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Richard Weait Sent: April 13, 2009 3:12 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Speaker unable to attend Tuesday due to emergency On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 14:38 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi all, > > If there is interest, I can provide an update of what is going on at > ICANN and the root servers; especially the many technical and political > issues behind the move to create a new swarm of top-level domain names. > > I've had the information at hand for a while and can do this on short > notice. > > I this something TLUGgers would want to hear? Dear All, I recommend that we accept Evan's generous offer for an ICANN update. Perhaps we can also have an open floor question and answer as well. So bring your Q's and A's and we'll see if we can't match some of them up. Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.285 / Virus Database: 270.11.54/2056 - Release Date: 04/13/09 05:51:00 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 19:55:33 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is a TLUG (general) meeting still on? Message-ID: <315837.23349.qm@web111202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks Richard, see you guys there! I will try to see if I can make it for the pre-meeting meetup =) Rajinder Yadav --- On Mon, 4/13/09, Richard Weait wrote: > From: Richard Weait > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Is a TLUG (general) meeting still on? > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Monday, April 13, 2009, 3:07 PM > On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 12:01 -0700, > Dev Guy wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am willing to attend just to meet some new faces and > talk Linux. If > > there will be a meeting I would like to attend. > > There will be a meeting.? See you there. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 20:27:31 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:27:31 -0400 Subject: 404 errors from security.debian.org Message-ID: <20090413162731.68136d28@teksavvy.com> Hi all, I set up my system the other day to use apt-pinning, which has worked out really really well. Thanks Jamon! Anyhow, one thing I'm getting, probably due to not setting this up right, is a 404 error when I do an update from security.debian.org, but only for unstable: Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/main Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/contrib Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] I do not see the same thing for testing repos, so I'm thinking there just isn't an unstable section for security.debian.org perhaps? This is my sources.list: #Testing# deb http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ testing main non-free contrib deb-src http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ testing main non-free contrib deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main deb-src http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main deb http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian testing main contrib non-free restricted deb-src http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian testing main contrib non-free restricted #unstable deb http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib deb-src http://debian.yorku.ca/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib deb http://security.debian.org/ unstable/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ unstable/updates main contrib deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org unstable main deb-src http://www.debian-multimedia.org unstable main deb http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free restricted deb-src http://ftp.debian-unofficial.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free restricted Clues? -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 21:08:46 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:08:46 -0400 Subject: 404 errors from security.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20090413162731.68136d28-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090413162731.68136d28@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090413210846.GA6667@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 04:27:31PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: >I set up my system the other day to use apt-pinning, which has worked out >really really well. Thanks Jamon! > >Anyhow, one thing I'm getting, probably due to not setting this up right, is a >404 error when I do an update from security.debian.org, but only for unstable: > >Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/main >Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] >Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/contrib >Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] > >I do not see the same thing for testing repos, so I'm thinking there just isn't >an unstable section for security.debian.org perhaps? You got it in 1! Security for unstable is not a feasible goal - that's what testing is for. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 13 22:07:47 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:07:47 -0400 Subject: 404 errors from security.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20090413162731.68136d28-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090413162731.68136d28@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090413220747.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 04:27:31PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > I set up my system the other day to use apt-pinning, which has worked out > really really well. Thanks Jamon! > > Anyhow, one thing I'm getting, probably due to not setting this up right, is a > 404 error when I do an update from security.debian.org, but only for unstable: > > Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/main > Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] > Err http://security.debian.org unstable/updates/contrib > Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 212.211.132.32 80] > > I do not see the same thing for testing repos, so I'm thinking there just isn't > an unstable section for security.debian.org perhaps? Correct. For unstable the fix simply goes into unstable right away. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:13:11 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:13:11 -0400 Subject: Pho Patron Message-ID: <49E4A807.6060300@tmis.ca> Is there a TLUG/friend/relative/ connection to the Pho Hung restaurant? If so, then thats fine, but if not, can we try other dining places in Chinatown? ---------------- 6:00 PM There will be an informal get together of Linux fans at the Pho Hung restaurant 350 Spadina Ave. to talk about Linux related topics over Vietnamese style food. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:28:03 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:28:03 -0400 Subject: Pho Patron In-Reply-To: <49E4A807.6060300-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4A807.6060300@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49E4AB83.7060306@telly.org> teddy mills wrote: > Is there a TLUG/friend/relative/ connection to the Pho Hung restaurant? > If so, then thats fine, but if not, can we try other dining places in > Chinatown? I would object to this. The advantage of Pho Hung is that it's fast, cheap, nearby, decent quality, and always has sufficient (if sometimes cramped) seating. The menu is suffieicntly varied that other options exist if you don't like soup. :-) Do you have something else in mind that reasonably fits the above criteria as well? If not, who would do the substantial advance scouting to find candidates? But above all ... as an occasional attendee I see substantial in having a tradition and conformity of time and place. Given the sometimes last-minute nature of meeting announcements, it would be very difficult to switch venues. Many people know the same day of the month and the same place to go; they don't even need the notices. Even if the UofT room changes, you could go always go to Pho Hung in advance and follow the crowd to the meeting; at least one of them should know (one would hope!). IMO the onus is on you to make a strong case why the status quo is not working. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:29:45 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:29:45 -0400 Subject: Pho Patron In-Reply-To: <49E4A807.6060300-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4A807.6060300@tmis.ca> Message-ID: On 4/14/09, teddy mills wrote: > > Is there a TLUG/friend/relative/ connection to the Pho Hung restaurant? Not that I have ever heard of. > If so, then thats fine, but if not, can we try other dining places in > Chinatown? A MAJOR problem in these sorts of situations is that everyone "knows" we go to location "X". Changing locations would be like turning an ocean liner, slow and painful. Bottom line is that unless there is a good reason to change it likely will not happen... Colin. > ---------------- > > 6:00 PM > > There will be an informal get together of Linux fans at the Pho Hung > restaurant 350 Spadina Ave. > to talk about Linux related topics over Vietnamese style food. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:38:40 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:38:40 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? Message-ID: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> Anybody subscribed to a Rogers Business Internet service? I just spoke to someone about their services. They told me they can't give me a business account if I'm running my business from home because the eligibility of the business accounts depends on zoning. They actually use your postal code to determine if you're eligible, and the guy told me I'll be rejected if it's an apartment or a house. That outright sucks. I can barely afford the Internet connection, now I need an office for it? It's not even a "business" per se.. I doubt I'll make much money if any :( He told me the best I could do is get the best residential services, which still come with residential down/up limits and bandwidth limits, etc.. I suspect he may be wrong.. does anybody here have a business account they use from home? I'm starting a web site / service that, at the start, will require 2-3 servers (it's not just http, there's a lot more networking involved). Ideally I'd like full control over them and the network they're on so that I can add machines to the server farm at will, and would like to use the Internet service as my main connection. At first I want to save money and power them with decent used, inexpensive machines.. and I don't expect the thing to get big right away. When/if it does, I'll pour money into a better setup ... Anybody doing something similar? Any recommendations on a cheap way to get what I want? Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:46:51 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4AE00.3090304-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Anybody doing something similar? Any recommendations on a cheap way to get > what I want? Hi Marc. I started out running some sites at home (on a DSL with a subnet allocated) and ended up shifting them to inexpensive hosting in the US. Hosting proved to be much more reliable and convenient. I've been happy with Linode.com but there are quite a few players in the market. You can run up new boxes quickly, buy additional bandwidth, etc, and you never have to worry about hardware. Disclaimer: I am only a custom of Linode, nothing more. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:47:08 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:47:08 -0400 Subject: Pho Patron In-Reply-To: <49E4A807.6060300-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4A807.6060300@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <49E4AFFC.2040905@ualberta.ca> On 14/04/09 11:13 AM, teddy mills wrote: > > Is there a TLUG/friend/relative/ connection to the Pho Hung restaurant? > If so, then thats fine, but if not, can we try other dining places in > Chinatown? > Someone mentioned something at the last meeting.. Drew (the meeting organizer) said it'd be an 'organizational nightmare' to "relocate". I could immediately relate to his claim because I've been in his seat before. These guys (Pho Hung) know that we show up once / month, they're good about accommodating us (this isn't easy with a group of 15-20 downtown), and yes there is the familiarity of tradition and proximity to UofT mentioned and by others. It seems like a bit of work to "switch", and worse of all, if we do.. will we be treated as well? What happens if, after a few meetings, the other restaurants aren't as keen on having a large+loud group or what if they tell us the night we arrive that it's full and we have to go elsewhere. In cases like this, the people who were against the relocation in the first place blame the organizer for Fixing Somethin' That Ain't Broke. Eventually all hell breaks loose. So you see the slight chance that we get something that is a bit better than Pho Hung is probably not worth taking. :) Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 15:57:38 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:57:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> On 14/04/09 11:46 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > >> Anybody doing something similar? Any recommendations on a cheap way to >> get what I want? > > Hi Marc. I started out running some sites at home (on a DSL with a > subnet allocated) and ended up shifting them to inexpensive hosting in > the US. Hosting proved to be much more reliable and convenient. > > I've been happy with Linode.com but there are quite a few players in the > market. You can run up new boxes quickly, buy additional bandwidth, etc, > and you never have to worry about hardware. > > Disclaimer: I am only a custom of Linode, nothing more. Robert, Thanks! I have never liked the idea of running a server on a virtual OS. It seems to be the popular thing these days but to me it's always been just a waste of perfectly good hardware. At this point, money is probably more important than my preferences, so I'm entertaining the notion that I might be wrong. :) Questions: - Have you ever done any performance tests and compare the result to an equivalent non-virtual OS on the same hardware? Since I'm doing more than web hosting (in fact the web hosting is just a way to download my client, which connects to my servers) I will need as much CPU (and, maybe, RAM) as I can get. I don't have concrete numbers on my requirements yet, though. - If not, would you be willing to run some tests for me? Or can anybody else report actual performance results? Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 16:13:53 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4B272.5050108-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > I have never liked the idea of running a server on a virtual OS. It seems to > be the popular thing these days but to me it's always been just a waste of > perfectly good hardware. That's interesting. One of the reasons I'm such a fan of virtualisation is that it makes such good use of perfectly good hardware :) Running a box mostly idle is a waste of hardware and energy, IMHO. Running 50 or 100 virtual boxes provides much better use of the hardware. Advantages include lower purchase costs, lower running costs, task seperation so important in prod networks. > At this point, money is probably more important than my preferences, so I'm > entertaining the notion that I might be wrong. :) :) > - Have you ever done any performance tests and compare the result to an > equivalent non-virtual OS on the same hardware? Since I'm doing more than web Lots of testing has been done as this is a key question. Virtualisation covers many different products with different characteristics so performance testing is very much specific to a particular virtualisation app. You can find a lot about virtualisation performance online. Physical/virtual comparisions also vary a lot based on the workload. Some forms of virtualisation run at close to 100% for CPU but are slow for disk I/O for example. I setup OpenVZ[1] at work and it typially performs at upwards of 97% of the performance of the physical hardware. OpenVZ writes directly to real filesystems so doesn't suffer any I/O performance problems. [1] Technically this isn't virtualisation at all, it is jailing but these two concepts often solve the same problems. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 16:25:35 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:25:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49E4B8FF.3050102@ualberta.ca> On 14/04/09 12:13 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > >> I have never liked the idea of running a server on a virtual OS. It >> seems to be the popular thing these days but to me it's always been >> just a waste of perfectly good hardware. > > That's interesting. One of the reasons I'm such a fan of virtualisation > is that it makes such good use of perfectly good hardware :) > > Running a box mostly idle is a waste of hardware and energy, IMHO. > Running 50 or 100 virtual boxes provides much better use of the hardware. > > Advantages include lower purchase costs, lower running costs, task > seperation so important in prod networks. Haha, so I should have post-scripted my previous message with this: I can see how it works well for web site serving, because given the nature of the usage per time of the web server, yes, everything you have up there makes sens. And given then probably 90% of servers is doing simple web serving with maybe some DB back-end I can see why virtualization is so hot these days. Maybe it's smartest way to host web sites. However, I can assure you what I plan to do will thrash the servers CPU. And there will be a lot of inter-networking between my servers going on. So in my case, performance per time unit is quite important. I'm not sure how the networking between servers would be affected by virtualization.. it depends on the setup, probably. So my concern is if I only get a percentage of the CPU. Say there are 10 other OS's on my virtual machine. Will my processes ever be allowed to get more than 1/10th of the CPU power? If so, let's say my processes are hogs and take up 80% of the physical machine's CPU at all times.. will this ever be a problem? >> - Have you ever done any performance tests and compare the result to >> an equivalent non-virtual OS on the same hardware? Since I'm doing >> more than web > > Lots of testing has been done as this is a key question. Virtualisation > covers many different products with different characteristics so > performance testing is very much specific to a particular virtualisation > app. You can find a lot about virtualisation performance online. > > Physical/virtual comparisions also vary a lot based on the workload. > Some forms of virtualisation run at close to 100% for CPU but are slow > for disk I/O for example. > > I setup OpenVZ[1] at work and it typially performs at upwards of 97% of > the performance of the physical hardware. OpenVZ writes directly to real > filesystems so doesn't suffer any I/O performance problems. > > [1] Technically this isn't virtualisation at all, it is jailing but > these two concepts often solve the same problems. Do you know what virtualization setup they have at Linode? In particular, will I *ever* be allowed to use more than 1/Xth of the physical CPU? I will contact them and get back to the list. Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 16:38:58 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:38:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4B8FF.3050102-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> <49E4B8FF.3050102@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49E4BC22.1060101@ualberta.ca> On 14/04/09 12:25 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Do you know what virtualization setup they have at Linode? In > particular, will I *ever* be allowed to use more than 1/Xth of the > physical CPU? > > I will contact them and get back to the list. Nevermind. I should have RTFM. :) http://www.linode.com/faq.cfm You get full usage of the CPU when others are idle. I'm impressed. Now I have a lot to think about. Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 16:47:24 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:47:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4B8FF.3050102-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> <49E4B8FF.3050102@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49E4BE1C.6040901@utoronto.ca> Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 14/04/09 12:13 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: >> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> >>> I have never liked the idea of running a server on a virtual OS. It >>> seems to be the popular thing these days but to me it's always been >>> just a waste of perfectly good hardware. >> >> That's interesting. One of the reasons I'm such a fan of virtualisation >> is that it makes such good use of perfectly good hardware :) >> >> Running a box mostly idle is a waste of hardware and energy, IMHO. >> Running 50 or 100 virtual boxes provides much better use of the hardware. >> >> Advantages include lower purchase costs, lower running costs, task >> seperation so important in prod networks. > > Haha, so I should have post-scripted my previous message with this: I > can see how it works well for web site serving, because given the nature > of the usage per time of the web server, yes, everything you have up > there makes sens. And given then probably 90% of servers is doing simple > web serving with maybe some DB back-end I can see why virtualization is > so hot these days. Maybe it's smartest way to host web sites. Absolutely. But even for individual high traffic sites, it still makes a lot of sense given that the performance penalty is about 3-5% (at least with Xen which is what we use at work). Think fast lvm snapshots for backups. Think moving VPS instances between machines, where the only change required is a different IP address in the guest. The company I work for has customers who started out with 96mb VPSes that now run on dedicated dual quad core machines with 16gb of memory. It would be really hard to upgrade so seamlessly across physical machines, but with a self-contained snapshot it is as fast as your ethernet connection between hosts. > However, I can assure you what I plan to do will thrash the servers CPU. > And there will be a lot of inter-networking between my servers going on. > So in my case, performance per time unit is quite important. I'm not > sure how the networking between servers would be affected by > virtualization.. it depends on the setup, probably. What are you planning? If you're going to be using a lot of CPU e.g. database related activity, it really makes sense to spend the extra money for a dedicated db machine. > So my concern is if I only get a percentage of the CPU. Say there are 10 > other OS's on my virtual machine. Will my processes ever be allowed to > get more than 1/10th of the CPU power? If so, let's say my processes are > hogs and take up 80% of the physical machine's CPU at all times.. will > this ever be a problem? Most companies will offer a semi dedicated option where you share a host with a few other customers e.g. as many as there are CPUs. That way each gets at least a single dedicated core. With octal core machines, my company have 8 customers on a machine with 16gb (or more memory). >>> - Have you ever done any performance tests and compare the result to >>> an equivalent non-virtual OS on the same hardware? Since I'm doing >>> more than web >> >> Lots of testing has been done as this is a key question. Virtualisation >> covers many different products with different characteristics so >> performance testing is very much specific to a particular virtualisation >> app. You can find a lot about virtualisation performance online. >> >> Physical/virtual comparisions also vary a lot based on the workload. >> Some forms of virtualisation run at close to 100% for CPU but are slow >> for disk I/O for example. >> >> I setup OpenVZ[1] at work and it typially performs at upwards of 97% of >> the performance of the physical hardware. OpenVZ writes directly to real >> filesystems so doesn't suffer any I/O performance problems. >> >> [1] Technically this isn't virtualisation at all, it is jailing but >> these two concepts often solve the same problems. > > Do you know what virtualization setup they have at Linode? In > particular, will I *ever* be allowed to use more than 1/Xth of the > physical CPU? They use Xen as do many virtualization providers (who provide customers with full root access anyways). The overhead is low, community and support is great, and it allows for static resource allocation like set memory and cpu caps. Some companies advertise 2048mb of memory and lots of resources, only you'll find that those are burstable amounts and not guaranteed e.g. what happens if two guests both get hit with lots of traffic and fight each other for burst memory? Like Robert said, there is a ton of information out there about virtualization, but I highly recommend going with a company (like mine ;) that uses Xen. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:12:21 2009 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: DSL Service Message-ID: I received this today from TekSavvy. If you are a DSL customer and your ISP is a company other than Bell this may be of interest to you... Dear Valued Customer, We are writing to you today as many activities are underway to shape/reshape Internet use as you all know it. Over the last year some of you have been made aware and/or have seen activities on throttling in the news or in your daily lives. Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with wholesale service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers. Specifically, Bell has been directed by the CRTC to provide matching speeds which would allow us all to have more flexibility in our day to day online requirements. Instead of adhering to these directives, Bell decided to take this issue to the federal Cabinet and at the same time file a tariff application with the CRTC proposing to introduce Usage Based Billing (UBB) on its wholesale customer accounts. What does this mean for you, the consumer? Bell provides TekSavvy with last mile, wholesale DSL access services, which TekSavvy uses to provide you with your Internet access. If Bell were to be allowed to introduce UBB on this service, a cap of 60GB would be imposed on all of its users, with very heavy penalties per Gigabyte afterwards (multiple times more than our current per Gigabyte rate of $0.25/GB on overages). This would inherently all but remove Unlimited internet services in Ontario/Quebec and potentially cause large increases in internet costs from month to month. If you'd like to make your comments/concerns known about what Bell is attempting to do, please do so here: http://support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissionmu/forms/Telecom.aspx?lang=e Select the word "Tariff" from the drop down list. Add the following in Subject Line "File Number # 8740-B2-200904989 - Bell Canada - TN 7181" and make your thoughts known! The deadline for filing your comments is today at midnight, so hurry! Regards, Rocky Rocky Gaudrault Chief Executive Officer TekSavvy Solutions Inc. 330 Richmond Street, Suite 205 Chatham, ON, N7M 1P7 Customer Service: 877-779-1575 URL: www.teksavvy.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:13:49 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:13:49 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] Message-ID: <49E4C44D.3030106@utoronto.ca> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer... Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:37:46 -0400 From: TekSavvy Solutions Inc Reply-To: support-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org To: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Dear Valued Customer, We are writing to you today as many activities are underway to shape/reshape Internet use as you all know it. Over the last year some of you have been made aware and/or have seen activities on throttling in the news or in your daily lives. Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with wholesale service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers. Specifically, Bell has been directed by the CRTC to provide matching speeds which would allow us all to have more flexibility in our day to day online requirements. Instead of adhering to these directives, Bell decided to take this issue to the federal Cabinet and at the same time file a tariff application with the CRTC proposing to introduce Usage Based Billing (UBB) on its wholesale customer accounts. What does this mean for you, the consumer? Bell provides TekSavvy with last mile, wholesale DSL access services, which TekSavvy uses to provide you with your Internet access. If Bell were to be allowed to introduce UBB on this service, a cap of 60GB would be imposed on all of its users, with very heavy penalties per Gigabyte afterwards (multiple times more than our current per Gigabyte rate of $0.25/GB on overages). This would inherently all but remove Unlimited internet services in Ontario/Quebec and potentially cause large increases in internet costs from month to month. If you'd like to make your comments/concerns known about what Bell is attempting to do, please do so here: http://support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissionmu/forms/Telecom.aspx?lang=e Select the word "Tariff" from the drop down list. Add the following in Subject Line "File Number # 8740-B2-200904989 - Bell Canada - TN 7181" and make your thoughts known! The deadline for filing your comments is today at midnight, so hurry! Regards, Rocky Rocky Gaudrault Chief Executive Officer TekSavvy Solutions Inc. 330 Richmond Street, Suite 205 Chatham, ON, N7M 1P7 Customer Service: 877-779-1575 URL: www.teksavvy.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:19:56 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:19:56 -0400 Subject: OT: DSL Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090414171956.GA10360@watson-wilson.ca> Didn't Bell try this in the mid nineties? I seem to recall something about Bell trying to impose high charges to ISP phone lines during the dial up era. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:38:21 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:38:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4BE1C.6040901-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> <49E4B8FF.3050102@ualberta.ca> <49E4BE1C.6040901@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49E4CA0D.60608@ualberta.ca> On 14/04/09 12:47 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > What are you planning? If you're going to be using a lot of CPU e.g. > database related activity, it really makes sense to spend the extra > money for a dedicated db machine. What I'm planning to do is not exactly a secret but I want to unveil it properly once it's ready for a beta stage. I've got an unstable base at the moment. If you have lots of time and you're really curious, I have posted about the idea on TLUG before. :) I'd love the dedicated machines. At the moment it might not be feasible for me given my budget, but it might be a good way to release the thing initially. Once (if) it gets popular, I will find or collect the money to push it to a proper setup. >> So my concern is if I only get a percentage of the CPU. Say there are >> 10 other OS's on my virtual machine. Will my processes ever be allowed >> to get more than 1/10th of the CPU power? If so, let's say my >> processes are hogs and take up 80% of the physical machine's CPU at >> all times.. will this ever be a problem? > > Most companies will offer a semi dedicated option where you share a host > with a few other customers e.g. as many as there are CPUs. That way each > gets at least a single dedicated core. With octal core machines, my > company have 8 customers on a machine with 16gb (or more memory). How much? Give me a link to the site. > They use Xen as do many virtualization providers (who provide customers > with full root access anyways). The overhead is low, community and > support is great, and it allows for static resource allocation like set > memory and cpu caps. Some companies advertise 2048mb of memory and lots > of resources, only you'll find that those are burstable amounts and not > guaranteed e.g. what happens if two guests both get hit with lots of > traffic and fight each other for burst memory? > > Like Robert said, there is a ton of information out there about > virtualization, but I highly recommend going with a company (like mine > ;) that uses Xen. Luckily memory won't be much of an issue. I'm so strapped for cash right now (thanks to everyone who's sending me emails about hosting) that it has to be the deciding factor. If once my "product" goes beta and gets popular and /actually needs the better hardware/, I will consider going to a more expensive solution and will, of course, encourage the companies that TLUGgers work for or recommend before any others. Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:39:10 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:39:10 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] In-Reply-To: <49E4C44D.3030106-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4C44D.3030106@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49E4CA3E.8010101@utoronto.ca> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect > you, the consumer... > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:37:46 -0400 > From: TekSavvy Solutions Inc > Reply-To: support-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org > To: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > > Dear Valued Customer, > > We are writing to you today as many activities are underway to > shape/reshape Internet use as you all know it. Over the last year some > of you have been made aware and/or have seen activities on throttling in > the news or in your daily lives. Another proceeding relating to the > Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to > provide ISPs with wholesale service speeds that match those that they > offer to their own retail customers. > > Specifically, Bell has been directed by the CRTC to provide matching > speeds which would allow us all to have more flexibility in our day to > day online requirements. Instead of adhering to these directives, Bell > decided to take this issue to the federal Cabinet and at the same time > file a tariff application with the CRTC proposing to introduce Usage > Based Billing (UBB) on its wholesale customer accounts. > > What does this mean for you, the consumer? > > Bell provides TekSavvy with last mile, wholesale DSL access services, > which TekSavvy uses to provide you with your Internet access. If Bell > were to be allowed to introduce UBB on this service, a cap of 60GB would > be imposed on all of its users, with very heavy penalties per Gigabyte > afterwards (multiple times more than our current per Gigabyte rate of > $0.25/GB on overages). This would inherently all but remove Unlimited > internet services in Ontario/Quebec and potentially cause large > increases in internet costs from month to month. > > If you'd like to make your comments/concerns known about what Bell is > attempting to do, please do so here: > > http://support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissionmu/forms/Telecom.aspx?lang=e > > Select the word "Tariff" from the drop down list. > > Add the following in Subject Line "File Number # 8740-B2-200904989 - > Bell Canada - TN 7181" and make your thoughts known! > > The deadline for filing your comments is today at midnight, so hurry! I tried filing my comments, their site is hideously broken. First it doesn't let you know that an email or phone is required. Then submitting using Iceweasel (with my browser agent set to Firefox via an extension) takes me to a failure page. Emailing the address on the failure page (procedure-5Yz9yph2bfiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) results in a bounce. The bounce is from postmaster-HhQHKA1xuUH2chsKg/YiWw at public.gmane.org I emailed that address with the bounced message, and guess what.. it bounced as well. I am 100% unimpressed with the CRTC, especially considering they're even giving Bell any consideration for overselling their network and not delivering the services that they're contractually bound to deliver to independent ISPs in the first place. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 17:56:43 2009 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:56:43 -0400 Subject: FW: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer... Message-ID: <002d01c9bd2a$61e5b550$25b11ff0$@com> FYI. In case you havent seen this -----Original Message----- From: TekSavvy Solutions Inc [mailto:support-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:38 PM To: Ansar Mohammed Subject: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer... Dear Valued Customer, We are writing to you today as many activities are underway to shape/reshape Internet use as you all know it. Over the last year some of you have been made aware and/or have seen activities on throttling in the news or in your daily lives. Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with wholesale service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers. Specifically, Bell has been directed by the CRTC to provide matching speeds which would allow us all to have more flexibility in our day to day online requirements. Instead of adhering to these directives, Bell decided to take this issue to the federal Cabinet and at the same time file a tariff application with the CRTC proposing to introduce Usage Based Billing (UBB) on its wholesale customer accounts. What does this mean for you, the consumer? Bell provides TekSavvy with last mile, wholesale DSL access services, which TekSavvy uses to provide you with your Internet access. If Bell were to be allowed to introduce UBB on this service, a cap of 60GB would be imposed on all of its users, with very heavy penalties per Gigabyte afterwards (multiple times more than our current per Gigabyte rate of $0.25/GB on overages). This would inherently all but remove Unlimited internet services in Ontario/Quebec and potentially cause large increases in internet costs from month to month. If you'd like to make your comments/concerns known about what Bell is attempting to do, please do so here: http://support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissionmu/forms/Telecom.aspx?lang=e Select the word "Tariff" from the drop down list. Add the following in Subject Line "File Number # 8740-B2-200904989 - Bell Canada - TN 7181" and make your thoughts known! The deadline for filing your comments is today at midnight, so hurry! Regards, Rocky Rocky Gaudrault Chief Executive Officer TekSavvy Solutions Inc. 330 Richmond Street, Suite 205 Chatham, ON, N7M 1P7 Customer Service: 877-779-1575 URL: www.teksavvy.com From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 18:12:32 2009 From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:12:32 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] In-Reply-To: <49E4CA3E.8010101-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4C44D.3030106@utoronto.ca> <49E4CA3E.8010101@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49E4D210.8080808@teksavvy.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > > I tried filing my comments, their site is hideously broken. First it > doesn't let you know that an email or phone is required. Then > submitting using Iceweasel (with my browser agent set to Firefox via > an extension) takes me to a failure page. > > Emailing the address on the failure page (procedure-5Yz9yph2bfiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) > results in a bounce. The bounce is from postmaster-HhQHKA1xuUH2chsKg/YiWw at public.gmane.org I > emailed that address with the bounced message, and guess what.. it > bounced as well. > > I am 100% unimpressed with the CRTC, especially considering they're > even giving Bell any consideration for overselling their network and > not delivering the services that they're contractually bound to > deliver to independent ISPs in the first place. > > Jamon It worked for me and from what I can see, it's working now. I'm using Iceweasel. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 18:17:54 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4BE1C.6040901-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> <49E4B272.5050108@ualberta.ca> <49E4B8FF.3050102@ualberta.ca> <49E4BE1C.6040901@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Think fast lvm snapshots for backups. Think moving VPS instances between Absolutely. Virtual boxes are so easy to manage. No hardware faults for the virtual system itself, and you can build redundancy into the physical servers underneath. > machines, where the only change required is a different IP address in the > guest. You may not even need to do that. Xen, OpenVZ, VMWare and others allow transparent migration of virtual hosts between different physical hosts. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 18:18:38 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: DSL Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Jason Carson | I received this today from TekSavvy. If you are a DSL customer and your | ISP is a company other than Bell this may be of interest to you... Watch out - when I posted about this stuff last week, the result was a long thread about religion (for and against)! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 21:05:15 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:05:15 -0400 Subject: OT: Rogers and Home-based Business Networks? In-Reply-To: <49E4AE00.3090304-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4AE00.3090304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49E4FA8B.6020605@rogers.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > Anybody subscribed to a Rogers Business Internet service? > > I just spoke to someone about their services. They told me they can't > give me a business account if I'm running my business from home > because the eligibility of the business accounts depends on zoning. > They actually use your postal code to determine if you're eligible, > and the guy told me I'll be rejected if it's an apartment or a house. > > That outright sucks. I can barely afford the Internet connection, now > I need an office for it? It's not even a "business" per se.. I doubt > I'll make much money if any :( > > He told me the best I could do is get the best residential services, > which still come with residential down/up limits and bandwidth limits, > etc.. > > I suspect he may be wrong.. does anybody here have a business account > they use from home? > Well, one of my customers is a seniors residence and they have a Rogers connection. I'm in the middle of that job. I've already installed 5 24 port gigabit switches (4 PoE) and router. Tomorrow, I'll be installing a 48 port DSLAM to deliver an internet connection the residents and several WiFi access points. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 21:42:43 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TOC Linux In-Reply-To: References: <44073429.8050404@rogers.com> <44083987.3050705@rogers.com> <1141395590.29194.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <87fylzts20.fsf@magma.ca> <50981.207.188.65.194.1141405395.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Robert Brockway wrote: > 1) It's difficult to find support staff for Linux > As someone who grew up Unix side and knew a lot of Unix admins > this came as a bit of a surprise but it was true, at least for > a while. Definitely not now with this economy condition! I am still looking! :-) -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 22:06:30 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090407072635.GA6090-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > While I agree with this in general, sometimes I wish that > there were fewer ... because then we'd have much greater > opportunity for collaboration and code reuse. Maybe this can be helped a bit if there is a way of many of those language developer to agree on 1 common intermediate code to compile to. > The dogma of Python is that there is a "right way to do it", > rather than "there's more than one way to do it", but > practically, there are a lot of ways to do things in Python. I liked that fine, and indeed I programmed in Perl mostly using one way I consider the right way (being Object Pascal developer in the past); and generally I would like Python if not for its requirement to use indentation to delimit statement blocks. I just cannot stand it to the degree I wanted to smash something when I tried it. I like Ruby, just wishes its grammar was designed better (ideally fit into LL(1)/LALR(1)), so it is easier to develop a fast parser / interpreter / compiler; and wishes there is only 1 way to define parameterized code block (instead of 3). -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 22:12:35 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pho Patron In-Reply-To: <49E4AFFC.2040905-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49E4A807.6060300@tmis.ca> <49E4AFFC.2040905@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > These guys (Pho Hung) know that we show up once / month, > they're good about accommodating us (this isn't easy with a > group of 15-20 downtown), and yes there is the familiarity of > tradition and proximity to UofT mentioned and by others. It > seems like a bit of work to "switch", and worse of all, if we > do.. will we be treated as well? My thought about this, in case there are significant numbers of people have this thought, is to designate 1 / 2 meeting a year where there is a wildcard on where to eat. Planned well in the future, it should be Ok for most people. If somebody happened to miss that one, at least the next meeting he/she won't. I wish I can attend any of TLUG meeting this days; having a kid has its disadvantage. :-( -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 14 22:13:01 2009 From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:13:01 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0904141513m6512606br68a34b84dbd61a0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:06 PM, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > >> While I agree with this in general, sometimes I wish that there were fewer >> ... because then we'd have much greater opportunity for collaboration and >> code reuse. >> > > Maybe this can be helped a bit if there is a way of many of those language > developer to agree on 1 common intermediate code to compile to. > Obviously, I must mention -- http://parrot.org/ >From their web site: Parrot is a virtual machine designed to efficiently compile and execute > bytecode for dynamic languages. Parrot currently hosts a variety of language > implementations in various stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, > Ruby, Lua, Scheme, PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET bytecode translator. > Parrot is not about parrots , > though we are rather fond of them for obvious reasons. > Cheers, - Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 00:02:14 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:02:14 -0400 Subject: Google App Engine @ PyGTA April 21 7:15pm Message-ID: <08C581CF-09FE-4B6D-9B49-8F3C4C9F2487@mylesbraithwaite.com> I will be showing us how to work within Google App Engine[1]: Google App Engine is a platform to building and hosting web applications on Google's infrastructure (which is sometimes called PaaS). It has a pay-for-what-you-use payment scheme but anything below 5 million pageviews a month is free[2]. We meet at the regular place and time, Linux Caffe[3] on the Third Tuesday of the month (April 21st this month) at ~7, kicking off the festivities at 7:15pm. Details about the Venue on the website[4]. [1] http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html [2] There's also some space limits and other restrictions. [3] http://www.linuxcaffe.ca 1 block South of Christie Station [4] http://www.pygta.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 03:08:12 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] Message-ID: <678836.23978.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I got my voice in, thanks Ivan! --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > From: Ivan Avery Frey > Subject: [TLUG]: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] > To: "List, TLUG" > Received: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 1:13 PM > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC > that can affect > you, the consumer... > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:37:46 -0400 > From: TekSavvy Solutions Inc > Reply-To: support-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org > To: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > > Dear Valued Customer, > > We are writing to you today as many activities are underway > to > shape/reshape Internet use as you all know it. Over the > last year some > of you have been made aware and/or have seen activities on > throttling in > the news or in your daily lives. Another proceeding > relating to the > Internet in Canada required Telecom providers > (Bell/Telus/etc.) to > provide ISPs with wholesale service speeds that match those > that they > offer to their own retail customers. > > Specifically, Bell has been directed by the CRTC to provide > matching > speeds which would allow us all to have more flexibility in > our day to > day online requirements. Instead of adhering to these > directives, Bell > decided to take this issue to the federal Cabinet and at > the same time > file a tariff application with the CRTC proposing to > introduce Usage > Based Billing (UBB) on its wholesale customer accounts. > > What does this mean for you, the consumer? > > Bell provides TekSavvy with last mile, wholesale DSL access > services, > which TekSavvy uses to provide you with your Internet > access. If Bell > were to be allowed to introduce UBB on this service, a cap > of 60GB would > be imposed on all of its users, with very heavy penalties > per Gigabyte > afterwards (multiple times more than our current per > Gigabyte rate of > $0.25/GB on overages). This would inherently all but remove > Unlimited > internet services in Ontario/Quebec and potentially cause > large > increases in internet costs from month to month. > > If you'd like to make your comments/concerns known about > what Bell is > attempting to do, please do so here: > > http://support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissionmu/forms/Telecom.aspx?lang=e > > Select the word "Tariff" from the drop down list. > > Add the following in Subject Line "File Number # > 8740-B2-200904989 - > Bell Canada - TN 7181" and make your thoughts known! > > The deadline for filing your comments is today at midnight, > so hurry! > > Regards, > > Rocky > > > Rocky Gaudrault > Chief Executive Officer > TekSavvy Solutions Inc.. > 330 Richmond Street, Suite 205 > Chatham, ON, N7M 1P7 > Customer Service: 877-779-1575 > URL: www.teksavvy.com > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 12:26:10 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:26:10 -0400 Subject: Links related to my talk last night Message-ID: <49E5D262.80408@telly.org> Hello everyone, It was a challenge -- but a pleasure -- to talk about ICANN at our meeting last night. Here are some web links related to my presentation, for whose who want to know more: (1) ICANN basics: http://icann.org/ http://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/ http://www.icannwatch.org/ (2) ICANN At-Large http://www.atlarge.icann.org/en/ http://www.atlarge.icann.org/summit-en.htm http://www.atlarge.icann.org/announcements/announcement-05mar09-en.htm (my speech that closed the Summit) (3) Not everyone thinks that ICANN At-Large is useful http://weblog.johnlevine.com/ICANN/offalac.html (I can't say that I totally disagree but I remain optimistic) (4) NARALO (the north american region of at-large) https://st.icann.org/naralo/index.cgi (5) On becoming an ALS: http://www.atlarge.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-23may05.htm http://www.atlarge.icann.org/en/framework.htm http://www.atlarge.icann.org/files/atlarge/als-application-form-en.doc (6) Examples of the testing of domain names using Unicode (Internationalized domain names) These should all work: http://??.??/ http://????.??????/ http://????????.????/ http://??????????.??????/ If you can't see them try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_level_domains (7) IPV6 info: http://www.icann.org/announcements/factsheet-ipv6-26oct07.pdf http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/02/icann-flips-switch-on-ipv6-dns-root-servers.ars http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/05/one-small-step-google-officially-supports-ipv6.ars http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/26/1753259&from=rss http://ipv6.google.com/ (8) DNSSEC info: http://mex.icann.org/files/meetings/mexico2009/atlarge-summit-dnssec-infrastructure-28feb09-en.pdf http://mex.icann.org/files/meetings/mexico2009/tuma-dnssec-implementation-04mar09-en.pdf http://www.dnssec-deployment.org/ (9) Some lesser-known current TLDs: http://about.museum/ http://www.travel.travel/ http://www.information.aero/gateway/index_html http://www.nic.name/ http://www.dotasia.org/ (10) The sad story of .xxx http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2007-03-30-icann-xxx_N.htm?csp=34 (11) The only place the Soviet Union still lives -- ICANN: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-04-18-196687842_x.htm http://www.nic.ru/dns/service/en/su.html (12) Some examples of preliminary efforts by community groups to build support for city and culturally based top-level domains: http://www.pointquebec.org/ http://www.dotcym.org/home/ http://www.dotsco.org/ http://www.dotberlin.de/ http://connectingnyc.org/ http://www.dotker.org-a.googlepages.com/home (13) New gTLD process http://icann.org/en/topics/new-gtld-program.htm http://www.icann.org/en/topics/new-gtlds/draft-rfp-redline-18feb09-en.pdf https://st.icann.org/working-groups/index.cgi?at_large_gtld_working_group_statement_on_applicant_guidebook_v2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From snkiz-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 13:36:09 2009 From: snkiz-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Ck) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:36:09 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] In-Reply-To: <678836.23978.qm-LGZSB/hsMXI5A34FEqDeB/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <678836.23978.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6a4686e30904150636jf7a4b70q68662755fe07fb00@mail.gmail.com> I got this letter from Teksavvy as well. I remember seeing something about it here on TLUG, but I never thought it would get this far. Site seems to be working now, on Firefox. you didn't really think the CRTC would let people leave comments anonymously did you? Besides what do you have to hide from them? I for one was proud to put my name on my thoughts on the subject. get over your paranoia or bury your head in the snow. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 13:47:57 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:47:57 -0400 Subject: Links related to Evan's talk last night In-Reply-To: <49E5D262.80408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49E5D262.80408@telly.org> Message-ID: <1239803277.13312.311.camel@leon> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:26 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hello everyone, > > It was a challenge -- but a pleasure -- to talk about ICANN at our > meeting last night. Dear Evan, Thank you for filling in on short notice. You had us riveted from the first slide and encouraged some lively discussion! Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:03:24 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <5bef4baf0904141513m6512606br68a34b84dbd61a0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <5bef4baf0904141513m6512606br68a34b84dbd61a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Richard Dice wrote: > Obviously, I must mention -- http://parrot.org/ Would you mind to share why you must? :-) > Parrot currently hosts a variety of language implementations > in various stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, > Ruby, Lua, Scheme, PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET > bytecode translator. Nice to see parrot become more cross-languages. I don't see Ruby in the languages list, though. Maybe related that Ruby developer decided against parrot not too long time ago? Unfortunately it is not the only kid on the block. There are other nice intermediate code and virtual code solutions, such as Inferno's Dis. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:06:06 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:06:06 -0400 Subject: Getting Wordpress up on the server via mysql In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0903240749t2c22ddd0l232787bfd957b68d@mail.gmail.com> <20090325011811.61323854F0@sarg.ryerson.ca> <49C9D711.2020704@telly.org> <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hey Colin, I was wondering if you could give me some advice on mysql, I am trying to get Wordpress running on a site www.feedbackmonitor.com, but am having some diffculties. Could I enlist your aid to 'look under the hood'? If you see another, perhaps easier way to get Wordpress up, I would be interested as well. Thanks, -I- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:05:36 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Important Notice] Many activities at the CRTC that can affect you, the consumer...] In-Reply-To: <6a4686e30904150636jf7a4b70q68662755fe07fb00-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <678836.23978.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6a4686e30904150636jf7a4b70q68662755fe07fb00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Ck wrote: > you didn't really think the CRTC would let people leave > comments anonymously did you? Besides what do you have to hide > from them? Maybe a Bell employee would like to comment anonymously. :-) -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:08:47 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:08:47 -0400 Subject: Sorry, not enough coffee this morning... In-Reply-To: <1239818766.3982.9.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0903240749t2c22ddd0l232787bfd957b68d@mail.gmail.com> <20090325011811.61323854F0@sarg.ryerson.ca> <49C9D711.2020704@telly.org> <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1239818927.3982.11.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello all, Tremendously sorry, this was not intended as a mass e-mail...however, this may be a blessing is disguise. Anyone know about mysql and how to get Wordpress running? My host is www.tera-byte.com and I have the '4U' service, which I was told, is Wordpress enabled. Thanks and sorries! -i- On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:06 -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Hey Colin, > > I was wondering if you could give me some advice on mysql, I am trying > to get Wordpress running on a site www.feedbackmonitor.com, but am > having some diffculties. Could I enlist your aid to 'look under the > hood'? > > If you see another, perhaps easier way to get Wordpress up, I would be > interested as well. > > Thanks, > > -I- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:10:57 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:10:57 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 06:06:30PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Maybe this can be helped a bit if there is a way of many of those > language developer to agree on 1 common intermediate code to compile to. There likely isn't one common code that would work efficiently and correctly for all languages. > I liked that fine, and indeed I programmed in Perl mostly using one way I > consider the right way (being Object Pascal developer in the past); and > generally I would like Python if not for its requirement to use > indentation to delimit statement blocks. I just cannot stand it to the > degree I wanted to smash something when I tried it. I used to not like that indentation thing either, but I do now. The change is when I realized that with braces, you can write code that works correctly, but looks completely wrong based on the indentation. In python, code must behave is it appears it will behave. It prevents you from making things confusing by missing a brace somewhere and putting it the wrong place. ie: sub foo() { my i=10 while(i>0) { if($i>5) { print "$i\n";} $i--; if($i>7) {$i=$i-3; } print "Looping\n"; } } If you look at it, it is clearly badly indented, but perl will still be happy with it. Python simply won't permit such things to happen. If will do what it looks like it will do. Given the amount of code that looks like line noise already in perl, not noticing an oddly places brace can become quite easy. > I like Ruby, just wishes its grammar was designed better (ideally fit > into LL(1)/LALR(1)), so it is easier to develop a fast parser / > interpreter / compiler; and wishes there is only 1 way to define > parameterized code block (instead of 3). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:11:07 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:11:07 -0400 Subject: Getting Wordpress up on the server via mysql In-Reply-To: <1239818766.3982.9.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0903240749t2c22ddd0l232787bfd957b68d@mail.gmail.com> <20090325011811.61323854F0@sarg.ryerson.ca> <49C9D711.2020704@telly.org> <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49E5EAFB.60201@ualberta.ca> On 15/04/09 02:06 PM, I. Khider wrote: > Hey Colin, > > I was wondering if you could give me some advice on mysql, I am trying > to get Wordpress running on a site www.feedbackmonitor.com > , but am having some diffculties. Could > I enlist your aid to 'look under the hood'? > > If you see another, perhaps easier way to get Wordpress up, I would be > interested as well. Ib, We're helpful Linux users but we can't fix problems by waving our magic wands -- er.. hands? :-p We'll likely need more info than that. Point us out to which part of http://codex.wordpress.org/Installing_WordPress you're having a problem with. If you're getting any error messages, that will be helpful too. Marc -- Curiosity is the scholar's virtue. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:12:06 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:12:06 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <5bef4baf0904141513m6512606br68a34b84dbd61a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090415141206.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:03:24AM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Richard Dice wrote: >> Obviously, I must mention -- http://parrot.org/ > > Would you mind to share why you must? :-) > >> Parrot currently hosts a variety of language implementations in various >> stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, Ruby, Lua, Scheme, >> PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET bytecode translator. > > Nice to see parrot become more cross-languages. I don't see Ruby in the > languages list, though. Maybe related that Ruby developer decided against > parrot not too long time ago? I seem to see it between Javascript and Lua above. Is the list wrong? > Unfortunately it is not the only kid on the block. There are other nice > intermediate code and virtual code solutions, such as Inferno's Dis. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:22:59 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:22:59 -0400 Subject: Getting Wordpress up on the server via mysql In-Reply-To: <49E5EAFB.60201-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0903240749t2c22ddd0l232787bfd957b68d@mail.gmail.com> <20090325011811.61323854F0@sarg.ryerson.ca> <49C9D711.2020704@telly.org> <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49E5EAFB.60201@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1239819779.3982.18.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Marc, I ran the instructions to the letter and got a blank page for my efforts (five minutes my arse!): http://www.feedbackmonitor.com/blog/ I went the mysql route as I figured that was the easiest, not really. When I run install.php, no tables are created. I asked tera-byte support and got "You already have a MySQL user (the username is the same as the site admin username). You set a password in the MySQL management section of the admin site (not in phpMyAdmin), you would create a database there as well (if you have not already)." Am I going the wrong direction here as this is suddenly getting more complex than the five minute install advertised. I am thinking the correct solution must be the simplest, and when things are getting complex, I am on the wrong path. Am I too vague here? -I- On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 10:11 -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 15/04/09 02:06 PM, I. Khider wrote: > > Hey Colin, > > > > I was wondering if you could give me some advice on mysql, I am trying > > to get Wordpress running on a site www.feedbackmonitor.com > > , but am having some diffculties. Could > > I enlist your aid to 'look under the hood'? > > > > If you see another, perhaps easier way to get Wordpress up, I would be > > interested as well. > > Ib, > > We're helpful Linux users but we can't fix problems by waving our magic > wands -- er.. hands? :-p > > We'll likely need more info than that. Point us out to which part of > > http://codex.wordpress.org/Installing_WordPress > > you're having a problem with. If you're getting any error messages, that > will be helpful too. > > Marc > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:24:05 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:24:05 -0400 Subject: Sorry, not enough coffee this morning... In-Reply-To: <1239818927.3982.11.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818927.3982.11.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090415142405.GA18423@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 02:08:47PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > >Tremendously sorry, this was not intended as a mass e-mail...however, this may >be a blessing is disguise. Anyone know about mysql and how to get Wordpress >running? Thanks for noticing! This acknowledgment is very welcome, as I see rather a lot of poor netiquette, so you are a breath of fresh air. The first thing to do is to tell us what, if any errors your are getting. I suspect from your hint that it is database related. Can you access mysql? The ensim control panel probably has this option somewhere, though I am unfamiliar with ensim. If you can access mysql, then we have a good starting point. >My host is www.tera-byte.com and I have the '4U' service, which I was told, is >Wordpress enabled. I remember tera-byte fondly - I had a server there for years. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:30:21 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090415141206.GO3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <5bef4baf0904141513m6512606br68a34b84dbd61a0@mail.gmail.com> <20090415141206.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I seem to see it between Javascript and Lua above. Is the > list wrong? I mean in Parrot homepage, in the page listing all languages: http://www.parrot.org/languages that said, I think I just found Ruby (Cardinal). -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:33:24 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:33:24 -0400 Subject: Getting Wordpress up on the server via mysql In-Reply-To: <1239819779.3982.18.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0903240749t2c22ddd0l232787bfd957b68d@mail.gmail.com> <20090325011811.61323854F0@sarg.ryerson.ca> <49C9D711.2020704@telly.org> <20090325133429.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49E5EAFB.60201@ualberta.ca> <1239819779.3982.18.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49E5F034.6070108@ualberta.ca> On 15/04/09 02:22 PM, I. Khider wrote: > Hello Marc, > > I ran the instructions to the letter and got a blank page for my efforts > (five minutes my arse!): Does "View Page Source" in your browser give you a completely blank page? What's wordpress written in? If it's PHP, you might want to turn on full error reporting. In php.ini, make sure you have: error_reporting = E_ALL & ~E_NOTICE To find where php.ini is, you can find out which linux distro you have there, and use the distro's tools to find where php.ini is hidden. 85% of the time this can be done via either: uname -a cat /etc/redhat-release cat /etc/debian-version or simply do a locate php.ini or cd / && find . -name php.ini > http://www.feedbackmonitor.com/blog/ > > I went the mysql route as I figured that was the easiest, not really. > > When I run install.php, no tables are created. Any error message? > I asked tera-byte support and got > > "You already have a MySQL user (the username is the same as the site admin > username). You set a password in the MySQL management section of the admin > site (not in phpMyAdmin), you would create a database there as well (if you > have not already)." > > Am I going the wrong direction here as this is suddenly getting more > complex than the five minute install advertised. I am thinking the > correct solution must be the simplest, and when things are getting > complex, I am on the wrong path. > > Am I too vague here? > What are the contents of wp-config.php? On the host, try, as root: mysql -h localhost -p and use the password you think is correct. Does that get you into the DB? (This is using the mysql client directly; if this works, then it should work from PHP if the scripts have the correct username and password info.) Marc -- Curiosity is the scholar's virtue. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:41:20 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:41:20 -0400 Subject: Getting Wordpress up on the server via mysql In-Reply-To: <1239819779.3982.18.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49CA3C61.4020506@ualberta.ca> <20090325180633.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1238021077.3910.19.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0903251221w3e081057id7efebdd5882996@mail.gmail.com> <49CA87CC.4090901@dinamis.com> <1238025218.3910.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1239818766.3982.9.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49E5EAFB.60201@ualberta.ca> <1239819779.3982.18.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090415144120.GB18423@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 02:22:59PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > >I ran the instructions to the letter and got a blank page for my efforts (five >minutes my arse!): It can be 5 minutes, but not usually the first time you do it. On my machines I can usually get a blog up in ~60 seconds. We'll get you there. When I use PHP and get a blank page, it is usually because I have a PHP error of some kind. Check your errors.log for items of interest. >I went the mysql route as I figured that was the easiest, not really. Which route is that? Last I looked (3 seconds ago) only MySQL can be used with WP. >When I run install.php, no tables are created. > >I asked tera-byte support and got > >"You already have a MySQL user (the username is the same as the site admin >username). You set a password in the MySQL management section of the admin >site (not in phpMyAdmin), you would create a database there as well (if you >have not already)." Well, did you set a password and create an empty database? Did you put that information in the wp-config.php file? >Am I going the wrong direction here as this is suddenly getting more complex >than the five minute install advertised. I am thinking the correct solution >must be the simplest, and when things are getting complex, I am on the wrong >path. Not more complex, but the 5 minute install is predicated on having your database sorted. It is the equivalent of saying that it is a 6 step process, after completing steps A through E. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:55:58 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:55:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: list of accredited programs in Ontario ? Message-ID: I have been looking and looking, but I cannot find such a thing. BC has one, given as example here: http://www.pctia.bc.ca/search/AccreditedInstitutions.htm Could someone please point me in the right direction ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:58:11 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:58:11 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 Message-ID: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Hi All, Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests here for July through September 2009. Ideally, suggestions will include a title and brief description of what will be covered in the talk. Like this: Baz Berlios presents: Using FooBar to Improve Jimson Saddle Yield Baz found that yields improved by nearly a bajillion percent when the FooBar.project was applied to her manufacturing team. Learn the top five decision points for deploying FooBar vs. ABC project, Key configuration options and three really entertaining stories from the trenches. There were a couple of suggestions last night at the LUG and discussion after. Please flesh these out if they appeal to you. Those interested in presenting these or other topics should copy the talks committee at: talks-+7+y8uhm9Opg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org A gentle introduction to git. Project management software. (Bill suggested mrproject) Inkscape - Get started with vector drawing software Scribus - Document layout and creation with desktop publishing software. Blender - 3D video and animation Project management methods for widely distributed teams. Processing.org Creating graphics from code in perl (Ryan) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 14:59:10 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090415141057.GN3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090404131805.j6p8wdwz404c4kss@webmail.utoronto.ca> <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I used to not like that indentation thing either, but I do > now. The point is not that I don't like indentation; I do like indentation, I don't like to do it. I would want the editor do it for me, if the editor is a smart one, or a choice not to bother about it, when the editor is dumb one. > It prevents you from making things confusing by missing a > brace somewhere and putting it the wrong place. Generally this is not a big issue for me, I am pretty consistent in where I put my braces. Also - as I said - a smart editor should point this out to me. It is a bigger issue that I cannot quickly move a group of code in and out a block without reformatting, or that if a space or tab added accidentally, the code will suddenly stop working. I also like the choice to do one liner. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 15:07:18 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:07:18 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:59:10AM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > The point is not that I don't like indentation; I do like indentation, I > don't like to do it. I would want the editor do it for me, if the editor > is a smart one, or a choice not to bother about it, when the editor is > dumb one. Well python simply has the requirement that the source code MUST be consistent. If you use a smart editor, this should be simple. > Generally this is not a big issue for me, I am pretty consistent in where > I put my braces. Also - as I said - a smart editor should point this out > to me. And if you are consistent, python is simple. You simply don't need braces. They are just noise that can be left out. > It is a bigger issue that I cannot quickly move a group of code in and > out a block without reformatting, or that if a space or tab added > accidentally, the code will suddenly stop working. A smart editor can change the indentation on a block very quickly. > I also like the choice to do one liner. I think they should be banned. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 15:04:41 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:04:41 -0400 Subject: list of accredited programs in Ontario ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E5F789.3030607@sympatico.ca> I don't have a link for you, but I'm thinking that since an accredited institution is able to issue the tuition tax receipt (T2202), there may be a list somewhere on Canada Revenue's site. Hopefully, there would be some reference to the province. This may be a tough search, but if you get no better ideas, it may be worth a try. Peter wrote: > I have been looking and looking, but I cannot find such a thing. BC has one, > given as example here: > > http://www.pctia.bc.ca/search/AccreditedInstitutions.htm > > Could someone please point me in the right direction ? > > thanks, > > Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 15:15:40 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:15:40 -0400 Subject: list of accredited programs in Ontario ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090415151540.GD18423@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 02:55:58PM +0000, Peter wrote: >I have been looking and looking, but I cannot find such a thing. BC has one, >given as example here: > > http://www.pctia.bc.ca/search/AccreditedInstitutions.htm > >Could someone please point me in the right direction ? Perhaps here: http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/postsec/degreegauth.html -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:04:37 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:04:37 -0400 Subject: spamwarrior Message-ID: <49E60595.3060006@tmis.ca> Have about 100 client servers on a public network. I have no idea what they are doing, just so long as they behave themselves. Spam is just one part of security. 1. Currently, they are on the "honor system" and have full access to all ports. 2. I do not want them to spam. 3. I do not block 25. 4. I do not want to block 25, unless I have to. 5. UCE can be intentional or unintentional. Blacklists dont care about intention. Any of the box can get botnetted and start spamming. I could monitor these hosts, and hopefully disconnect/shut them down before they blacklist my block. Check blocks and ips against blacklists. These are reactive solutions and seem like bad solutions. Any ideas of how to control or monitor servers that spam? Or would it be better just to block 25, and have all email go thru my mail server? (I hate to think I am just like Rogers +Bell :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:07:46 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:07:46 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: <49E60652.2030009@telly.org> > Inkscape - Get started with vector drawing software > +1 > Scribus - Document layout and creation with desktop publishing software. > +1 Other suggestions: - Synchronizing of devices, calendars, bookmarks, etc. - video conversion (and/or how to navigate the bazillion of options to transcode) - Inside Android - optimizing Linux for netbooks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:18:34 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <20090415150718.GP3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > If you use a smart editor, this should be simple. So, in short, Python need smart editor. :-) Basically Python has too much requirement, too restrictive in the way I don't think matter for programming. Note that this come from somebody who like to code in Pascal. > A smart editor can change the indentation on a block very > quickly. One additional step I don't need in other language. > I think they should be banned. And then let's parted peacefully at this point. :-) I am relying on one liner to do day to day calculator work. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:27:00 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: ... > One additional step I don't need in other language. > >> I think they should be banned. > > And then let's parted peacefully at this point. :-) I am relying on one liner > to do day to day calculator work. Why do you need a one-liner? I can't think of a good reason. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:36:51 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > Why do you need a one-liner? I can't think of a good reason. Do something quick from command line, such as normal calculator work (add and multiply some numbers), or quick manipulation of strings. Basically, if I need calculator, I fired a perl or ruby one liner, and get the result. With command history, it is a very efficient procedure (for me). -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 16:43:17 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> Why do you need a one-liner? I can't think of a good reason. > > Do something quick from command line, such as normal calculator work (add and > multiply some numbers), or quick manipulation of strings. > > Basically, if I need calculator, I fired a perl or ruby one liner, and get > the result. With command history, it is a very efficient procedure (for me). That doesn't answer the question why you need a one-liner. You can enter multiple-line commands at the shell prompt. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 17:04:26 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:04:26 -0400 Subject: list of accredited programs in Ontario ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2009-04-15, Peter wrote: > I have been looking and looking, but I cannot find such a thing. BC has one, > given as example here: > > http://www.pctia.bc.ca/search/AccreditedInstitutions.htm It would seem way more useful to look for particular accreditations in something particular that you are interested in. For instance, those institutions include things as off-the-beaten-track as Acupuncture and "Chinese Medicine" (which notably doesn't point you towards an M.D.!), and Clinical Art Therapy. It includes programs in Hair Design and certifications in Helicopter Piloting, Hotel Management, and Adventure Tourism, and Ship's Cabinetry. Some of the accreditations seem like rubbish to me. Others seem unlikely to be relevant. I doubt there's too much call for "Naval Cabinetry" in Ontario, as much as that sounds like a perfectly fine, albeit specialized, trade. I suspect you'd be better served by pointing at what kinds of accreditations you might be interested in, as any reasonable one is likely to have some form of professional advocacy/oversight organization that would be even better to point at. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:10:53 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:10:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: list of accredited programs in Ontario ? References: Message-ID: Christopher Browne writes: > I suspect you'd be better served by pointing at what kinds of > accreditations you might be interested in, as any reasonable one is > likely to have some form of professional advocacy/oversight > organization that would be even better to point at. I tried it either way, it's a jungle out there, and I have been bitten by the 'creatively' designed accreditation statement of educational institutions abroad (it said accredited right next to the only thing they were accredited for, the other 12 or so diploma programs, including the one I took, were not). Strange as it may seem, naval cabinetry, especially in wood, is an art. Humidity, salt spray, heating and cooling cycles and engine vibration will turn most non-expertly made pieces of ship's cabinetry into a pile of noisy, moldy, smelly useless mushy wood rather fast (a few months). It would deserve a degree certification. I am upset because where I come from the accreditation issue is *very* clearly regulated, precisely because hundreds of diploma mills profited from the situation for a long time and that had to be stopped (at the latest, when it turned out that several government members had law degrees that had been mostly laser printed offshore). Also B.C. seems to have this pat down, but ON. which has about 5 times more schools, not. Plus most immigrants land in ON and are those most gullible and liable to buy into un-accredited mill printouts. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:12:31 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:12:31 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: On 4/15/09, Richard Weait wrote: > Hi All, > > Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests here for July > through September 2009. Ideally, suggestions will include a title and > brief description of what will be covered in the talk. Like this: > Baz Berlios presents: Using FooBar to Improve Jimson Saddle Yield > Baz found that yields improved by nearly a bajillion percent when the > FooBar.project was applied to her manufacturing team. Learn the top > five decision points for deploying FooBar vs. ABC project, Key > configuration options and three really entertaining stories from the > trenches. Two I would be happy to do on fairly short notice: - The Care and Feeding of Portable Media Players: This would be a upgraded version of the talk I did earlier this year at NewTLUG, looking at what is involved in keeping the various MP3, video and other portable media players happy under Linux (read, most of the talk and most of the slides for the presentation are already done :-) ). - A Unix Unanimous style question and answer session. Each month I act as moderator at Unix Unanimous and I would be happy enough to run that sort of meeting (as I have on a few occasions in the past at TLUG). No projector, slide, or computer are needed for this, just a chalk board, and chalk, or white board and markers are required... Looking a bit longer term, I have agreed to write an introductory article on MisterHouse (a home automation program) for one the major Linux publications. At some point I would happy to turn that into a talk (but likely not say for May...). Colin McGregor > There were a couple of suggestions last night at the LUG and discussion > after. Please flesh these out if they appeal to you. > > Those interested in presenting these or other topics should copy the > talks committee at: talks-+7+y8uhm9Opg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > > A gentle introduction to git. > > Project management software. (Bill suggested mrproject) > > Inkscape - Get started with vector drawing software > > Scribus - Document layout and creation with desktop publishing software. > > Blender - 3D video and animation > > Project management methods for widely distributed teams. > > Processing.org Creating graphics from code in perl (Ryan) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:13:18 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:13:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: Where is the list of meetings/talks ? I had expected meetings to be announced here as they have been in the past, but I missed some ? Pointers would be welcome. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:25:04 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:25:04 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090415182503.GQ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:18:34PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > So, in short, Python need smart editor. :-) Basically Python has too much > requirement, too restrictive in the way I don't think matter for > programming. Note that this come from somebody who like to code in > Pascal. No my point was that python doesn't require anything other languages don't require. Life is easier with a good editor. I write python in vim, which I would hardly call a smart editor, at least not with the features I use. Python just mandates consistent indentation as part of being valid syntax. If you are already always consistent in your indentation then python causes no problems at all. > One additional step I don't need in other language. Except you must know how to do that to maintain consistent indentation there if you move a block. Now if you then say that you don't use consistent indentation in that case, then I will call you a bad programmer. :) > And then let's parted peacefully at this point. :-) I am relying on one > liner to do day to day calculator work. And python decided to be completely consistent and hence not allow such things. I use them too in perl at times, but almost never in C. Forced consistency in the interest of reducing the possibility of making mistakes is actually not a bad thing. It did put me off python initially and it was many years before I bothered looking at it, because I too though "No one is going to tell me how to indent my code". -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:27:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:27:27 -0400 Subject: spamwarrior In-Reply-To: <49E60595.3060006-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <49E60595.3060006@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <20090415182727.GR3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:04:37PM -0400, teddy mills wrote: > Have about 100 client servers on a public network. > I have no idea what they are doing, just so long as they behave themselves. > > Spam is just one part of security. > > 1. Currently, they are on the "honor system" and have full access to all > ports. > 2. I do not want them to spam. > 3. I do not block 25. > 4. I do not want to block 25, unless I have to. > 5. UCE can be intentional or unintentional. Blacklists dont care about > intention. > Any of the box can get botnetted and start spamming. > > I could monitor these hosts, and hopefully disconnect/shut them down > before they blacklist my block. Check blocks and ips against blacklists. > > These are reactive solutions and seem like bad solutions. > > Any ideas of how to control or monitor servers that spam? > > Or would it be better just to block 25, and have all email go thru my > mail server? > (I hate to think I am just like Rogers +Bell :) Given the spam bots with their own mailserver built in, you may not have much choice. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:28:40 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:28:40 -0400 Subject: list of talks. In-Reply-To: References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: <1239820120.13312.447.camel@leon> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:13 +0000, Peter wrote: > Where is the list of meetings/talks ? I had expected meetings to be announced > here as they have been in the past, but I missed some ? Pointers would be > welcome. Confirmed talks are listed on the wiki. Drew sends a tlug-announce shortly before meetings. There is talk of adding some sort of feed for confirmed presentations as well. May hopefully, will be Robert Brockway's postponed presentation on backups. Confirmation to come shortly. June is Giles' much anticipated presentation on GIMP. http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Meetings:2009-06 And the "Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3" thread is the current place for suggestions and recommendations. The hope is that the discussion of "Oohh, that would make a good presentation" will be ongoing and that the LUG will get to choose the most interesting topics by the most compelling speakers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 18:25:30 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:25:30 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: References: <5bef4baf0904042033w5db454ffu4684628b512755ce@mail.gmail.com> <49D82D8C.70407@alteeve.com> <20090406163317.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49E6269A.7050801@dinamis.com> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> If you use a smart editor, this should be simple. > > So, in short, Python need smart editor. :-) Basically Python has too > much requirement, too restrictive in the way I don't think matter for > programming. Note that this come from somebody who like to code in Pascal. Are you trolling or just ill-informed? Python has no requirement beyond having a Python runtime environment installed, which on most real operating systems, isn't a problem. The indentation is such a non-issue that even with your nonsensical objections to them, it would take you all of an hour to get used to it if you could ever bring yourself to give Python a good trial. I'll bet within a week, you'll wonder how you ever did without it. The language is compact, clean, and expressive. It doesn't force you to use any particular IDE or tools. The barriers to getting started and becoming productive with Python are very low. That seems to bother some people so they pick on something, anything, like the significant whitespace issue, and dismiss it. >> A smart editor can change the indentation on a block very quickly. > > One additional step I don't need in other language. I use vim all the time for Python. Do you consider that an exotic editor? >> I think they should be banned. > > And then let's parted peacefully at this point. :-) I am relying on one > liner to do day to day calculator work. If you want to write illegible code in Python, you're free to do so. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 20:08:56 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:08:56 -0400 Subject: algebaric operations on a RegEx? In-Reply-To: <49E6269A.7050801-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49DA30C3.6050401@alteeve.com> <20090406175834.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DA5E39.2050008@alteeve.com> <20090407072635.GA6090@yam.witteman.ca> <20090415141057.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090415150718.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49E6269A.7050801@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20090415200856.GA19021@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 02:25:30PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >>> A smart editor can change the indentation on a block very quickly. >> >> One additional step I don't need in other language. > >I use vim all the time for Python. Do you consider that an exotic editor? Yes! I also use vim, and love it, but I would call it incredibly exotic. How many modeful editors are there? Vim has a short, steep learning curve to the first plateau of usefulness, and then many, many more short climbs to ever-greater heights of power and capability, disappearing into the clouds. I believe that there is only one editor more exotic than vim, and that is EMACS. Vim contains powerful programming tools, but EMACS has Lisp :-) I showcased a few features of vim at my old workplace, and the jaws of my Visual Studio-using colleagues hit the floor when they saw what I was doing - and it wasn't even that complex. I would consider myself a vim newbie, but it would still be a week's work to teach what I know about vim to someone new to it. I find complaints about the indentation requirements of Python to be specious, but I am not going to press my case. Either you are willing to spend some time giving the language a try, or you aren't. If you are not rigorously indenting your code already you are headed for trouble, and if your editor is not enforcing your indentation, you are wasting your time. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 20:12:53 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:12:53 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904151312x1834d52ft3d994f858433ed27@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Peter wrote: > Where is the list of meetings/talks ? I had expected meetings to be announced > here as they have been in the past, but I missed some ? Pointers would be > welcome. I believe upcoming meetings are posted on the wiki's homepage: http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Main_Page Previous talks are listed at http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Historical:Meetings -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 20:31:06 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:31:06 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904151331h5db598afn1fc07192ebfc5e8f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests here for July > through September 2009. ?Ideally, suggestions will include a title and > brief description of what will be covered in the talk. ?Like this: I'd be happy to present on: Using JxLib to improve web application UI's There are plenty of JavaScript frameworks available to modern web developers. Learn why I've choosen the MooTools based UI library JxLib and how to include it into your own projects. Time permitting, I will also show how to create & configure a CGI::Application::Framework based AJAX Application Server. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 15 21:04:20 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Richard Weait wrote: > Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests here for July > through September 2009. Looking a little further ahead, my book on Bash programming will be published October 5. I'd like to give a presentation in October based partly on the book, but going a little wider and talking about portable shell programming as it applies to bash (and when to use bash-only features). -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 03:25:03 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 Message-ID: <291217.86537.qm@web111205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Richard, being a new member I am not sure if a talk on Linux security has took place. But I sure would be very interesting is this topic. In particular, using security monitoring tools such as nmap and snort, detecting clues for intrusion, general best practice. Thanks, Rajinder Yadav --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Richard Weait wrote: > From: Richard Weait > Subject: [TLUG]: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 > To: "tlug" > Received: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 10:58 AM > Hi All, > > Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests here > for July > through September 2009.? Ideally, suggestions will > include a title and > brief description of what will be covered in the > talk.? Like this: > > Baz Berlios presents: Using FooBar to Improve Jimson Saddle > Yield > Baz found that yields improved by nearly a bajillion > percent when the > FooBar.project was applied to her manufacturing team.? > Learn the top > five decision points for deploying FooBar vs. ABC project, > Key > configuration options and three really entertaining stories > from the > trenches.? > > There were a couple of suggestions last night at the LUG > and discussion > after.? Please flesh these out if they appeal to > you.? > > Those interested in presenting these or other topics should > copy the > talks committee at: talks-+7+y8uhm9Opg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > > > A gentle introduction to git. > > Project management software.? (Bill suggested > mrproject) > > Inkscape - Get started with vector drawing software > > Scribus - Document layout and creation with desktop > publishing software. > > Blender - 3D video and animation > > Project management methods for widely distributed teams. > > Processing.org Creating graphics from code in perl (Ryan) > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 03:31:16 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 Message-ID: <475694.89987.qm@web111206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Although JxLib is not particularly Linux, if no one objects I would be interested in this topic as I am in the planning stage of creating a new website. So count me in! Rajinder Yadav --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Scott Elcomb wrote: > From: Scott Elcomb > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 4:31 PM > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:58 AM, > Richard Weait > wrote: > > Please add your talk topic suggestions and requests > here for July > > through September 2009. ?Ideally, suggestions will > include a title and > > brief description of what will be covered in the talk. > ?Like this: > > I'd be happy to present on: Using JxLib to improve web > application UI's > > There are plenty of JavaScript frameworks available to > modern web > developers.? Learn why I've choosen the MooTools based > UI library > JxLib and how to include it into your own projects.? > Time permitting, > I will also show how to create & configure a > CGI::Application::Framework based AJAX Application Server. > > -- > ? Scott Elcomb > ? http://www.psema4.com/???@psema4 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 19:00:53 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: DSL Service References: Message-ID: > when I posted about this stuff last week, the result was a long thread about religion (for and against)! Bell worship ?! heh ;) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 19:16:42 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:16:42 -0400 Subject: Flattening a website Message-ID: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going dark. The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content management system. I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it with a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the cache? Is this a sane approach? Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 19:26:15 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flattening a websitey In-Reply-To: <20090416191642.GA22641-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which > is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the > future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going dark. > > The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content > management system. > > I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it with > a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the cache? > Is this a sane approach? > > Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! I'd use wget -r to duplicate the site locally and replace it with that. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 19:28:49 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:28:49 -0400 Subject: Flattening a website In-Reply-To: <20090416191642.GA22641-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: You could just use wget to get a mirror copy of the site: wget -m -k -K -E http://example.com/ --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ Please consider the trees before print this email. On 16-Apr-09, at 3:16 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which > is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the > future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going > dark. > > The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content > management system. > > I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it > with > a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the > cache? > Is this a sane approach? > > Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! > -- > > yours, > > William > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 20:20:36 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:20:36 -0400 Subject: Flattening a website In-Reply-To: <20090416191642.GA22641-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <49E79314.2090503@dinamis.com> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which > is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the > future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going dark. > > The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content > management system. > > I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it with > a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the cache? > Is this a sane approach? > > Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! Others have suggested wget, which is a perfectly plausible way to do it, but for future reference and the benefit of those who might also be interested in something like this, both Django and Plone have ways of flattening a site. That would be of interest if you wanted to continue enjoying the benefits of a CMS but deploying a static site for whatever reason. You can then treat Django or CMS as a static page generator that offers clean separation of content from markup, unlike a tool like Dreamweaver. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 16 21:47:20 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:47:20 -0400 Subject: Flattening a websitey In-Reply-To: References: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: On 2009-04-16, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > >> I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which >> is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the >> future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going dark. >> >> The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content >> management system. >> >> I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it with >> a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the cache? >> Is this a sane approach? >> >> Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! > > I'd use wget -r to duplicate the site locally and replace it with > that. I did this once with a "legacy" Bugzilla instance, where there were such massive changes between old and new versions that it was implausible to convert data from the old instance into the new one. By pulling a copy via wget, we had an archive of the old bugs. Not editable, of course, but they were *available*... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 00:56:38 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:56:38 -0400 Subject: Flattening a websitey In-Reply-To: References: <20090416191642.GA22641@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <49E7D3C6.5060200@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 2009-04-16, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> >>> I have a strange, interesting problem. I have a dynamic website which >>> is going to stop being dynamic - it will no longer be updated in the >>> future, but we'd like to keep it up and running, rather than going dark. >>> >>> The dynamic nature of the site is pretty simple - just a content >>> management system. >>> >>> I was wondering - could you put squid in front of this site, hit it with >>> a crawler, and then replace the old site with the contents of the cache? >>> Is this a sane approach? >>> >>> Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! >> I'd use wget -r to duplicate the site locally and replace it with >> that. > > I did this once with a "legacy" Bugzilla instance, where there were > such massive changes between old and new versions that it was > implausible to convert data from the old instance into the new one. > > By pulling a copy via wget, we had an archive of the old bugs. Not > editable, of course, but they were *available*... I'm in the same boat, about 4--5 bugzilla instances all of different outdated versions. I think for archiving I'll be importing them into trac since it has an import feature, and then from there into redmine. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 05:10:52 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: restating network Message-ID: <942142.5679.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare =) ...let the flames begin! OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I have noticed at time Linux will have any network connection. I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 card is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after bootup using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and not the ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. So my question is how to I reinit the network so I can get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix this but it get's annoying at times. Thanks, Rajinder Yadav __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 05:53:53 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:53:53 -0400 Subject: restating network In-Reply-To: <942142.5679.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <942142.5679.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E81971.80802@ualberta.ca> On 17/04/09 01:10 AM, Dev Guy wrote: > > I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare =) ...let the flames begin! I won't flame you about that, but I will point out that your mailer sends out long lines. Could you look into wrapping them at 80 columns? > OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I have noticed at time Linux will have any network connection. I've never found it the best way to learn because: a) you lose some of the experience you gain from things you need to learn during installation eg. finding the right driver for a network card because there's a "virtual network card" b) it's not a fair comparison of how efficiently Linux will run on the hardware, because it's running virtually. "Oh, look Linux is slow.." no, virtualized OS's are slow, especially when run from a slow host OS. c) if you're using up the space on the drive for a virtual disk anyway, dual-booting is a better option. If you don't have the extra hardware, why not dual-boot? This way forces you to get familiar with Linux without allowing you to resort to back to bad habits like Windows :-p > I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 card is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after bootup using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and not the ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. > > So my question is how to I reinit the network so I can get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix this but it get's annoying at times. Two ways which will work in most Linux distros, as root: 1. (This might be Debian and/or Ubunto specific.. not sure) ifdown eth0 # should not need this if it's already down :) ifup eth0 2. /etc/init.d/networking restart (note that /etc/init.d/* are scripts used to start/stop services. They are run at bootup, depending on the init level you boot it-- default one is found in /etc/inittab. The scripts per initlevel are sym linked from /etc/rc$INITLEVEL.d/ ) Marc -- There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code. -- Flon's Law -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 07:25:47 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: restating network Message-ID: <716830.29339.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thank you Mark, all three commands work like a charm. I am using yahoo mail and it's retarded with the lines and no wrapping? So I appreciate you painfully reading my email. I've installed Slackware several times on a PC box as a stand alone server and dual boot. Had hours of fun with lilo, xwindow and building some of the opensource app locally =) ...but I still have a lot to learn when it comes to Linux. My current PC is fast enough to handle Linux running in VMWare with no issues of sluggish response even with KDE running. I like the rollback feature of VMWare, it's the ultimate undo when you're just playing around! Drive space not an issues for me. With VMWare and a virtual desktop or dual monitor setup, it's like I have 2 systems running at the same time and I can switch easily and quickly between the OSes, with dual-boot I don't have this option. Being a Windows C++ developer, I need to be logged into Windows to get work done. I am learning CentOS on VMWare to get good at installing things and general sysadmin so I can use these skills on my remote Linux host when I decide to move my website to a dedicated Linux server. FYI: I have VMWare running because I can install large-project build that I am testing on the VM and not worry about corruption my system. I can easily do remote debugging from my IDE/debugger into my VM image. It's like I am running the app on my local pc, so I can do all the cool power debugging I need. Once you start using VM in this capacity you will never go back to the old way of coding and debugging, having to reinstall your OS because a test build install went haywire, or the uninstall got botched, etc. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Marc Lanctot wrote: > From: Marc Lanctot > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: restating network > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 1:53 AM > On 17/04/09 01:10 AM, Dev Guy wrote: > > > > I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare =) > ...let the flames begin! > > I won't flame you about that, but I will point out that > your mailer sends out long lines. Could you look into > wrapping them at 80 columns? > > > OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I have > noticed at time Linux will have any network connection. > > I've never found it the best way to learn because: > > a) you lose some of the experience you gain from things you > need to learn during installation eg. finding the right > driver for a network card because there's a "virtual network > card" > > b) it's not a fair comparison of how efficiently Linux will > run on the hardware, because it's running virtually. "Oh, > look Linux is slow.." no, virtualized OS's are slow, > especially when run from a slow host OS. > > c) if you're using up the space on the drive for a virtual > disk anyway, dual-booting is a better option. > > If you don't have the extra hardware, why not dual-boot? > This way forces you to get familiar with Linux without > allowing you to resort to back to bad habits like Windows > :-p > > > I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 card > is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after bootup > using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and not the > ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. > > > > So my question is how to I reinit the network so I can > get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix this but > it get's annoying at times. > > Two ways which will work in most Linux distros, as root: > > 1. > > (This might be Debian and/or Ubunto specific.. not sure) > > ifdown eth0? # should not need this if it's already > down :) > ifup eth0 > > 2. > > /etc/init.d/networking restart > > (note that /etc/init.d/* are scripts used to start/stop > services. They are run at bootup, depending on the init > level you boot it-- default one is found in /etc/inittab. > The scripts per initlevel are sym linked from > /etc/rc$INITLEVEL.d/ ) > > Marc > > -- There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will > there ever be, any > programming language in which it is the least bit difficult > to write > bad code. > ? -- Flon's Law > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 07:40:17 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: restating network Message-ID: <146176.75796.qm@web111205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> My apology for misspelling your name Marc in the previous email. Thank again, Rajinder Yadav __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 12:37:35 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: NABU event at York] Message-ID: <8356.99.253.254.243.1239971855.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> This might be of interest to someone on the TLUG list. Peter ========================================================= On April 24, York University Computer Museum is organizing a special history of computing event dedicated to NABU Network -- one of the most innovative Canadian high-technology initiatives of the 1980s. For many personal computer users in Ottawa region, the NABU Network was the first taste of "proto-Internet" -- years before World Wide Web. The event will consist of a special lecture and a demonstration of a reconstructed network. John Kelly, one of the best known Canadian entrepreneurs and the founder of NABU Manufacturing, will open the event. If this event is of interest to you, please consult http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/events/events.htm or http://www.cse.yorku.ca/seminars/abstracts/Zbigniew For details on NABU Network, please take a look at http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/research/NABU.htm -- Zbigniew Stachniak Associate Professor Department of Computer Science and Engineering York University 4700 Keele Street Toronto, Ontario, M3J 1P3 Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 13:38:22 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: list of talks. In-Reply-To: <1239820120.13312.447.camel@leon> References: <1239807491.13312.394.camel@leon> <1239820120.13312.447.camel@leon> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Richard Weait wrote: > May hopefully, will be Robert Brockway's postponed presentation on > backups. Confirmation to come shortly. Yep, I'm right to do the May talk. I confirmed that work don't have any plans to send me away around that time. Thanks for all the well wishes I've received in email. Amelie is doing well. The hardest bit now is convincing a two year old to "take it easy" while she gets better :) Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 14:04:30 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:04:30 -0400 Subject: restating network In-Reply-To: <49E81971.80802-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <942142.5679.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49E81971.80802@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090417140429.GT3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 01:53:53AM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > I've never found it the best way to learn because: > > a) you lose some of the experience you gain from things you need to > learn during installation eg. finding the right driver for a network > card because there's a "virtual network card" Most windows users use a pre installed system. Learning how to install the OS is not high on most computer users list of priorities. > b) it's not a fair comparison of how efficiently Linux will run on the > hardware, because it's running virtually. "Oh, look Linux is slow.." no, > virtualized OS's are slow, especially when run from a slow host OS. Well not everyone is doing it to test, some just want to use it that way at whatever performance they get. > c) if you're using up the space on the drive for a virtual disk anyway, > dual-booting is a better option. If you can get linux to work perfectly on your hardware and you don't need access to the windows programs at the same time. Having access to a working system and web browser and internet while learning how to operate linux is actually quite useful. I certainly didn't have that option when I started many years ago, but it is available now and makes sense to use. > If you don't have the extra hardware, why not dual-boot? This way forces > you to get familiar with Linux without allowing you to resort to back to > bad habits like Windows :-p Well my wife runs linux in vmware on windows because getting wireless to work under linux can be a nightmare. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 14:01:01 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:01:01 -0400 Subject: restating network In-Reply-To: <942142.5679.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <942142.5679.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090417140101.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:10:52PM -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare =) ...let the flames begin! > > OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I have noticed at time Linux will have any network connection. > > I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 card is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after bootup using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and not the ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. > > So my question is how to I reinit the network so I can get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix this but it get's annoying at times. VMware on windows has an annoying tendancy to mess up bridged ethernet if your physical computer has multiple network ports. The result is that for no apparent reason you no longer have networking, but a reboot often fixes it. Best you can do is go assign one of the vmnet interfaces explicitly to the physical port you want bridged into linux, and then change the virtual network adapter in your vm to that new vmnet interface. Strangely I have never seen the linux version of vmware make this mistake. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 14:23:18 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:23:18 -0400 Subject: Talks suggestions / volunteers 2009Q3 In-Reply-To: <475694.89987.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIHBU+L9ui1Svu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <475694.89987.qm@web111206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0904170723k136d5c6cg99e5ce29abab3e40@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Dev Guy wrote: > > Although JxLib is not particularly Linux, if no one objects I would be interested in this topic as I am in the planning stage of creating a new website. JxLib isn't Linux related, but it is a FOSS project. The application server portion is related in that the backend runs on a LAMP server. The frontend, although written in JavaScript, is influenced by GNU/Linux. http://projects.psema4.com/atomos/ identifies some of my thoughts[1] on browser-based *nix emulation. Thanks for the interest. :-) - Scott [1] and requires a number of updates -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 17:58:15 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: restating network Message-ID: <617955.3459.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello Len, I've noticed VMWare tends to flack out with the bridged network connection too. My routers, I have 2 of them sometime needs to be restarted or the DNS settings refreshed. I suspect something is going on at Bell to cause my network to go dead at time once in a while. Maybe they don't like my routers? Thanks for the addition information about assignment of a vmnet, I was not aware this was possible =) What Marc suggested should to do the trick without a reboot hopefully the next time I encounter a network outage on VM. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > From: Lennart Sorensen > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: restating network > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 10:01 AM > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:10:52PM > -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > > I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare =) > ...let the flames begin! > > > > OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I have > noticed at time Linux will have any network connection. > > > > I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 card > is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after bootup > using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and not the > ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. > > > > So my question is how to I reinit the network so I can > get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix this but > it get's annoying at times. > > VMware on windows has an annoying tendancy to mess up > bridged ethernet > if your physical computer has multiple network ports.? > The result is > that for no apparent reason you no longer have networking, > but a reboot > often fixes it. > > Best you can do is go assign one of the vmnet interfaces > explicitly > to the physical port you want bridged into linux, and then > change the > virtual network adapter in your vm to that new vmnet > interface.. > > Strangely I have never seen the linux version of vmware > make this mistake. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 18:00:22 2009 From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:00:22 -0400 Subject: Free old issues of Linux Magazine (US) and Linux Journal Message-ID: <1eea116a0904171100j4e849b5mc6e137f6268438db@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I have a bunch of old issues of Linux Magazine (US Version) and Linux Journal at my office. They are from 2001 to 2004. 37 issues of Linux Journal 17 issues of Linux Magazine I don't need them, so if anybody is interested you can pick them up at Allen Rd & Sheppard Ave. West. Drop me an email. Regards, Alex Kink -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 18:01:35 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: duplicated emails to thread Message-ID: <563917.56521.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Is there a reason why me and Len seem to be getting 2 emails sent to the thread when I am sure we both only sent out one email? --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Dev Guy wrote: > From: Dev Guy > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: restating network > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 1:58 PM > > Hello Len, > > I've noticed VMWare tends to flack out with the bridged > network connection too. My routers, I have 2 of them > sometime needs to be restarted or the DNS settings > refreshed. I suspect something is going on at Bell to cause > my network to go dead at time once in a while. Maybe they > don't like my routers? > > Thanks for the addition information about assignment of a > vmnet, I was not aware this was possible =) > > What Marc suggested should to do the trick without a reboot > hopefully the next time I encounter a network outage on VM. > > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > > From: Lennart Sorensen > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: restating network > > To: tlug at ss..org > > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 10:01 AM > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:10:52PM > > -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > > > I am running Linux inside my Windows in VMWare > =) > > ...let the flames begin! > > > > > > OK it's a great way for me to learn Linux, but I > have > > noticed at time Linux will have any network > connection. > > > > > > I know enough to use ifconfig to see if my eth0 > card > > is up and running. Today I had to add eth0 after > bootup > > using ipconfig, but noticed only a ipv6 address and > not the > > ipv4 was assigned. Thus no network access for me. > > > > > > So my question is how to I reinit the network so > I can > > get internet working? I am having to reboot to fix > this but > > it get's annoying at times. > > > > VMware on windows has an annoying tendancy to mess up > > bridged ethernet > > if your physical computer has multiple network > ports.? > > The result is > > that for no apparent reason you no longer have > networking, > > but a reboot > > often fixes it. > > > > Best you can do is go assign one of the vmnet > interfaces > > explicitly > > to the physical port you want bridged into linux, and > then > > change the > > virtual network adapter in your vm to that new vmnet > > interface.. > > > > Strangely I have never seen the linux version of > vmware > > make this mistake. > > > > -- > > Len Sorensen > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below > 80 > > columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > ? ? ? > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 18:08:49 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:08:49 -0400 Subject: Free old issues of Linux Magazine (US) and Linux Journal In-Reply-To: <1eea116a0904171100j4e849b5mc6e137f6268438db-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1eea116a0904171100j4e849b5mc6e137f6268438db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/17/09, Alex Kink wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a bunch of old issues of Linux Magazine (US Version) and Linux > Journal at my office. They are from 2001 to 2004. > > 37 issues of Linux Journal > 17 issues of Linux Magazine > > I don't need them, so if anybody is interested you can pick them up at Allen > Rd & Sheppard Ave. West. > Drop me an email. > > Regards, > Alex Kink Having written for both publications, I would be interested :-) Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 21:16:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:16:27 -0400 Subject: duplicated emails to thread In-Reply-To: <563917.56521.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <563917.56521.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090417211627.GU3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:01:35AM -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > Is there a reason why me and Len seem to be getting 2 emails sent to the thread when I am sure we both only sent out one email? I only get one that I know of. Now I always group reply, since that is the required convention on lkml, and is also what I prefer, and you get used to hitting a certain key, so you will get both a mailing list copy and a personal copy whenever I reply to a message. If you find that annoying, go ahead and complain. It hasn't successfully made me remember to do different thigns on different lists yet, and unfortunately isn't likely to either. Sorry about the wasted bytes this might cause. 8^) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 17 21:30:31 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: duplicated emails to thread Message-ID: <426809.34071.qm@web111212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not a complaint just an observation =) ... I noticed I got "one" of my emails twice as I did yours Len. Maybe it's yahoo mail server I am using? I just want to annoy anyone asking the same questions twice on this thread. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > From: Lennart Sorensen > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: duplicated emails to thread > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 5:16 PM > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:01:35AM > -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > > Is there a reason why me and Len seem to be getting 2 > emails sent to the thread when I am sure we both only sent > out one email? > > I only get one that I know of. > > Now I always group reply, since that is the required > convention on lkml, > and is also what I prefer, and you get used to hitting a > certain key, > so you will get both a mailing list copy and a personal > copy whenever > I reply to a message. > > If you find that annoying, go ahead and complain.? It > hasn't successfully > made me remember to do different thigns on different lists > yet, and > unfortunately isn't likely to either.? Sorry about the > wasted bytes this > might cause.? 8^) > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 00:29:39 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: duplicated emails to thread Message-ID: <53279.34396.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I don't want to annoy. Typo! Sent from my IPhone On 17-Apr-09, at 5:30 PM, Dev Guy wrote: Not a complaint just an observation =) ... I noticed I got "one" of my emails twice as I did yours Len. Maybe it's yahoo mail server I am using? I just want to annoy anyone asking the same questions twice on this thread. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: From: Lennart Sorensen Subject: Re: [TLUG]: duplicated emails to thread To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 5:16 PM On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:01:35AM -0700, Dev Guy wrote: Is there a reason why me and Len seem to be getting 2 emails sent to the thread when I am sure we both only sent out one email? I only get one that I know of. Now I always group reply, since that is the required convention on lkml, and is also what I prefer, and you get used to hitting a certain key, so you will get both a mailing list copy and a personal copy whenever I reply to a message. If you find that annoying, go ahead and complain. It hasn't successfully made me remember to do different thigns on different lists yet, and unfortunately isn't likely to either. Sorry about the wasted bytes this might cause. 8^) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 01:16:27 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:16:27 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA Message-ID: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> Hi all, is there a spot in GTA where they sell all kinds of old hardware junk? In particular, I need a PW-200APSA power supply, and some more. eBay is an option but the cost of shipping from Europe does not justify the deal. Or maybe someone on the list has it? Trying to revive my first linux box (with Plan9 in mind ;)) -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 01:25:07 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:25:07 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GTA In-Reply-To: <18921.10731.335074.680352-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <18921.11251.952800.98316@hetman.ua> --text follows this line-- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 01:29:00 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <18921.10731.335074.680352-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Do you need that supply specifically or can you swap in something else? If the latter, Active Surplus on Queen Street would be my first thought. Then there is 'tacky Kennedy', the stretch of Kennedy north of Lawrence. By the way, having been burned by a supply that went into Frankenstein mode, I would buy a quality unit, not any old junk. For quality, I'd cruise College street, from Spadina and west and get a name brand unit that will fit in the space. My 2 cents worth. Peter > Hi all, > > is there a spot in GTA where they sell all kinds of old hardware junk? > In particular, I need a PW-200APSA power supply, and some more. eBay > is an option but the cost of shipping from Europe does not justify the > deal. > > Or maybe someone on the list has it? > > Trying to revive my first linux box (with Plan9 in mind ;)) > > -- > Viktor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 02:22:10 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:22:10 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> >>>>> "p" == phiscock writes: p> Do you need that supply specifically or can you swap in p> something else? If the latter, Active Surplus on Queen Street p> would be my first thought. Then there is 'tacky Kennedy', the p> stretch of Kennedy north of Lawrence. p> By the way, having been burned by a supply that went into p> Frankenstein mode, I would buy a quality unit, not any old p> junk. For quality, I'd cruise College street, from Spadina and p> west and get a name brand unit that will fit in the space. I don't know what else will fit in. There are two power supply to motherboard connectors, and they look pretty ancient... I certainly know about College & Spadina but thanks for the other pointers. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 02:56:19 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:56:19 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <18921.14674.161733.174969-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> Message-ID: On 4/17/09, Viktor Pavlenko wrote: >>>>>> "p" == phiscock writes: > > p> Do you need that supply specifically or can you swap in > p> something else? If the latter, Active Surplus on Queen Street > p> would be my first thought. Then there is 'tacky Kennedy', the > p> stretch of Kennedy north of Lawrence. > > p> By the way, having been burned by a supply that went into > p> Frankenstein mode, I would buy a quality unit, not any old > p> junk. For quality, I'd cruise College street, from Spadina and > p> west and get a name brand unit that will fit in the space. > > I don't know what else will fit in. There are two power supply to > motherboard connectors, and they look pretty ancient... I certainly > know about College & Spadina but thanks for the other pointers. > > -- > Viktor You might also want to have a look at "Above All Electrics Surplus" on Bloor near Bathurst (smaller, somewhat higher quality electronic surplus than Active Surplus). Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 14:40:38 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <18921.14674.161733.174969-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> Message-ID: | From: Viktor Pavlenko | | >>>>> "p" == phiscock writes: | | p> Do you need that supply specifically or can you swap in | p> something else? | I don't know what else will fit in. There are two power supply to | motherboard connectors, and they look pretty ancient... I certainly | know about College & Spadina but thanks for the other pointers. I cannot tell for sure, but a little googling leads me to suspect that it is just a common garden variety 200W AT switching power supply. There might be several version of AT power connectors so take your old supply (or even better: your whole old computer) to the store to get the right fit. Does the description in this page look familiar? http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/parts_Motherboard.htm Is one connector labelled P8 and the other P9? Don't hook the connectors up backwards! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 15:26:33 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:26:33 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <18921.61737.198589.742830@hetman.ua> >>>>> "DHR" == D Hugh Redelmeier writes: DHR> I cannot tell for sure, but a little googling leads me to DHR> suspect that it is just a common garden variety 200W AT DHR> switching power supply. DHR> There might be several version of AT power connectors so take DHR> your old supply (or even better: your whole old computer) to DHR> the store to get the right fit. DHR> Does the description in this page look familiar? DHR> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/parts_Motherboard.htm DHR> Is one connector labelled P8 and the other P9? Yes, that's the one. Thanks for your advice. DHR> Don't hook the connectors up backwards! I'll try not to :) This is my first PC that I assembled myself back in 1997, her name was Mriya (Dream), she has Pentium 200 CPU (original one was Pentium 75) and serial mouse. I used the box as firewall couple of years ago, but then bought a wireless router, she got offended and died... looks like the power supply is the first thing to replace. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 18 17:38:31 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:38:31 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <18922.4119.255661.338540@hetman.ua> >>>>> "CM" == Colin McGregor writes: CM> You might also want to have a look at "Above All Electrics CM> Surplus" on Bloor near Bathurst (smaller, somewhat higher CM> quality electronic surplus than Active Surplus). Among half a dozen shops I called this is the only one that has them, $10. Thanks again for everybody's help. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 04:17:53 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:17:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: old hardware in GRA References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> Message-ID: I am new to .t.o but in general taking a walk on College from East of College and Spadina and on Westwards should take you past most surplus shops. Most have ads outside. I do not know about your specific supply. Then there is that other surplus place on Bloor just across from Honest Ed's, Above All Electronics I think. They also have a lot of computer surplus parts and boards. hope this helps, P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 13:04:24 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:04:24 -0400 Subject: OT: XKCD in the New York Times Message-ID: <49EC72D8.1000404@utoronto.ca> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/business/media/20link.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 13:46:45 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:46:45 -0400 Subject: Minimize the Microsoft tax; get a netbook Message-ID: <49EC7CC5.7040205@telly.org> An interesting article from ZDNet indicates that Microsoft makes even less money per netbook shipping with XP than I thought; less than $15 per. http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=3418 This compares with about $70 for other computers pre-loaded with Vista. So if you *must* have a MS operating system to run some apps, netbooks continue to be the best way to minimize what you give to MS. Of course, netbooks also allow many options to dispense with Windows entirely with Linux pre-loads. However, I find that some of the post-purchase installs of Linux distributions (think eeebuntu) to be even better than some of the pre-installs. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 14:53:12 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:53:12 -0400 Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <18921.14674.161733.174969-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> <6042.99.253.254.243.1240018140.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <18921.14674.161733.174969@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <20090420145312.GV3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:22:10PM -0400, Viktor Pavlenko wrote: > I don't know what else will fit in. There are two power supply to > motherboard connectors, and they look pretty ancient... I certainly > know about College & Spadina but thanks for the other pointers. Two 6 pin power connectors? That would be a standard AT power connector. Any old AT power supply should do (so anything predating the switch to ATX). My 486 and PPro both use that type of power supply (and no sorry, you can't have either one). :) Adapters exist by the way if you want to move to a newer easier to get power supply: http://www.power-on.com/images/product/accessories/atxtoat2.jpg -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 15:49:27 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, JoeHill wrote: > That is just not true _at all_. Science is based on verification through > experimentation, and a good scientist takes _nothing_ on faith. Science is a > question. It questions everything, including itself, constantly. These claims > people make about science being based on faith betray an utter lack of > understanding about what scientists actually do. During my science education I was taught to be constantly on guard against scientific dogma. Scientists are human and don't always act purely in accordance with the scientific method. Many scientists have become defensive when their life's work (and perhaps their reputation and livlihood) has been threated by new discoveries. Many of them have clung beyond all reason to the work of their youth instead of accepting there were major flaws in their theories. They make up more and more elaborate theories to account for the apparent discrepances between their earlier work and reality. They assume their work explains reality even when there is evidence to the contrart. This is faith. Science is replete with examples of scientific dogma, where large numbers of scientists have ignored the evidence and clung to older theories that looked more and more tenous as time went on. In the end this resistance usually only went away when the old guard died off. Plate Techtonics is a great example. The evidence that continents moved and changed over time was very strong and came from a variety of sources, and yet the geological establishment resisted the idea of decades. Ideas like an expanding universe were resisted heavily by astronomers (in the early 20th century) who had built their life's work on the assumption that the universe was largely static over time. The proponents were even happy to suggest that the universe was violating conservation of mass-energy to keep their theory afloat. Science has also been tainted all too often by cultural prejudices. Scientists well into the 20th century were presenting serious scientific studies that draw conclusions about sexuality or ethnicity that many of us would find abhorent. The idea that science is always pure and somehow naturally avoids scientific dogma is itself a form of dogma. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 17:44:42 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:44:42 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, JoeHill wrote: > >> That is just not true _at all_. Science is based on verification through >> experimentation, and a good scientist takes _nothing_ on faith. >> Science is a >> question. It questions everything, including itself, constantly. >> These claims >> people make about science being based on faith betray an utter lack of >> understanding about what scientists actually do. > > During my science education I was taught to be constantly on guard > against scientific dogma. > > Scientists are human and don't always act purely in accordance with > the scientific method. > > Many scientists have become defensive when their life's work (and > perhaps their reputation and livlihood) has been threated by new > discoveries. > > Many of them have clung beyond all reason to the work of their youth > instead of accepting there were major flaws in their theories. They > make up more and more elaborate theories to account for the apparent > discrepances between their earlier work and reality. They assume > their work explains reality even when there is evidence to the > contrart. This is faith. > > Science is replete with examples of scientific dogma, where large > numbers of scientists have ignored the evidence and clung to older > theories that looked more and more tenous as time went on. In the end > this resistance usually only went away when the old guard died off. > > Plate Techtonics is a great example. The evidence that continents > moved and changed over time was very strong and came from a variety of > sources, and yet the geological establishment resisted the idea of > decades. > > Ideas like an expanding universe were resisted heavily by astronomers > (in the early 20th century) who had built their life's work on the > assumption that the universe was largely static over time. The > proponents were even happy to suggest that the universe was violating > conservation of mass-energy to keep their theory afloat. > > Science has also been tainted all too often by cultural prejudices. > Scientists well into the 20th century were presenting serious > scientific studies that draw conclusions about sexuality or ethnicity > that many of us would find abhorent. > > The idea that science is always pure and somehow naturally avoids > scientific dogma is itself a form of dogma. > > Cheers, > > Rob > I suspect there's a fine line between the healthy skepticism that science requires and dogma. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 17:49:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:49:42 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090420174941.GW3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:49:27AM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > During my science education I was taught to be constantly on guard > against scientific dogma. > > Scientists are human and don't always act purely in accordance with the > scientific method. > > Many scientists have become defensive when their life's work (and perhaps > their reputation and livlihood) has been threated by new discoveries. > > Many of them have clung beyond all reason to the work of their youth > instead of accepting there were major flaws in their theories. They make > up more and more elaborate theories to account for the apparent > discrepances between their earlier work and reality. They assume their > work explains reality even when there is evidence to the contrart. This > is faith. > > Science is replete with examples of scientific dogma, where large numbers > of scientists have ignored the evidence and clung to older theories that > looked more and more tenous as time went on. In the end this resistance > usually only went away when the old guard died off. > > Plate Techtonics is a great example. The evidence that continents moved > and changed over time was very strong and came from a variety of sources, > and yet the geological establishment resisted the idea of decades. > > Ideas like an expanding universe were resisted heavily by astronomers (in > the early 20th century) who had built their life's work on the assumption > that the universe was largely static over time. The proponents were even > happy to suggest that the universe was violating conservation of > mass-energy to keep their theory afloat. > > Science has also been tainted all too often by cultural prejudices. > Scientists well into the 20th century were presenting serious scientific > studies that draw conclusions about sexuality or ethnicity that many of > us would find abhorent. > > The idea that science is always pure and somehow naturally avoids > scientific dogma is itself a form of dogma. The failure of some scientists does not imply a failure of science. Clearly some scientists were making discoveries and pointing out the failures in the existing theories. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 17:52:10 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <49ECB48A.8050407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090407213643.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DC8D2D.1040804@rogers.com> <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | I suspect there's a fine line between the healthy skepticism that | science requires and dogma. In some sense, they are opposites. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 18:44:00 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:44:00 -0400 Subject: n/m means no message n/m In-Reply-To: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> References: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> Message-ID: <49ECC270.5090500@utoronto.ca> n/m -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 18:55:51 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:55:51 -0400 Subject: tlug / wiki seems down n/m In-Reply-To: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> References: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> Message-ID: <747E4D56-2521-4E34-8129-92867BF59183@mylesbraithwaite.com> I just got it up. --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ Please consider the trees before print this email. On 20-Apr-09, at 2:19 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > n/m > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 19:12:03 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:12:03 -0400 Subject: tlug / wiki seems down n/m In-Reply-To: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> References: <1240251583.13312.592.camel@leon> Message-ID: <08006BAE-728D-4404-BD98-A61774C9D6FA@mylesbraithwaite.com> Sorry... now it is fixed. --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ Please consider the trees before print this email. On 20-Apr-09, at 2:19 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > n/m > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 19:20:54 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:20:54 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 2009-04-20, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > > | I suspect there's a fine line between the healthy skepticism that > | science requires and dogma. > > In some sense, they are opposites. There's a continuum to be found there: - Insufficient skepticism leads to believing in any kind of nonsense that comes along - Excessive skepticism is another way to say "dogma." Of course, one would be presumed to *want* to believe in those things that are actually true. If there were no problems in determining that, then there should be a perfect match: - We should be dogmatic about disbelieving in things that are not true - We should be completely accepting of things that *are* true Unfortunately, evaluating the truth of claims that we receive is a nontrivial matter, particularly if we do not hold real expertise in the area in question. That actually circles back pretty naturally to the original question that led to this discussion thread. The original question involved some assertions about CRTC policies. It is worth observing that such policies are NOT "scientific questions," but are, instead, *political* questions, where believability falls not into matters of physical truth, but rather of how government organizations are understood to behave and of what kinds of laws and regulations they tend to impose. It should be pretty clear that having some *moderate* level of skepticism is of some value when thinking about suggested government policies. Being totally disbelieving is silly, as some policies come true. But being totally gullible is also silly... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 00:05:49 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:05:49 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the manufacturer can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint was out of their jurisdiction. I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no competition rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay for Windows. The consumer can always install Linux after paying for Windows, so what's the problem? HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get the OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course of action--can anyone else give feedback on this? Thanks in advance, Ib Khider -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 20:30:05 2009 From: matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Matthew Middleton) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:30:05 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240272349.3976.206.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <000c01c9c1f6$caabc4a0$3a08a8c0@newdesktop> I'm no expert in the legal arena, but I don't think small claims is the answer. First, did they claim or promise to make Linux available, or to offer the model you want with no O/S? If not, they're not really on the hook. Think of it this way: If you were buying a car made by GM, you couldn't really go after them if you wanted a Honda engine installed instead. As well, they are under no obligation to sell you an engine-less car (for equal or less cost), as that's not an option that they offer. They're not under any legal obligations to offer you anything more or less than what they choose to sell. Second, it seems like a lot of effort and stress to make a point that could be made much more easily - vote with your money. Buy a laptop from a vendor who WILL ship with Linux. Even if it's not the distro you want, it's not likey you'll be paying for the O/S anyway. Another good strategy is to write them a letter, informing them of your decision, as well as the fact that you will be sure to encourage others NOT to buy HP. Word of mouth counts for a lot, and if you blog about it, mention it to your social circle, etc., it might just surprise you how effective it can be. All the above is just my opinion, so please feel free to take it with a grain or two of salt :) ________________________________________ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of I. Khider Sent: April 20, 2009 8:06 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: No OS as a right Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the manufacturer can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint was out of their jurisdiction. I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no competition rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay for Windows. The consumer can always install Linux after paying for Windows, so what's the problem? HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get the OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course of action--can anyone else give feedback on this? Thanks in advance, Ib Khider -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 20:48:36 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No OS as a right Message-ID: <257318.13936.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> How much is your time worth? how much will you save for going to small claims court? will it make a difference only to you, or will your cause bring about true change for many. If it really bothers you, find another hardware vendor that either provides pre-installed Linux on their pc or one that will give you a rebate. HP has made their case very clear, there is no point in going further down this path if you value your time. Vote with your pocket book, make a difference that way and let HP know why they lost a sale. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Mon, 4/20/09, I. Khider wrote: From: I. Khider Subject: [TLUG]: No OS as a right To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Received: Monday, April 20, 2009, 8:05 PM Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the manufacturer can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint was out of their jurisdiction. I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no competition rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay for Windows. The consumer can always install Linux after paying for Windows, so what's the problem? HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get the OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course of action--can anyone else give feedback on this? Thanks in advance, Ib Khider __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 20:51:14 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:51:14 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <257318.13936.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <257318.13936.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090420205113.GX3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 01:48:36PM -0700, Dev Guy wrote: > How much is your time worth? how much will you save for going to small claims court? will it make a difference only to you, or will your cause bring about true change for many. > > If it really bothers you, find another hardware vendor that either provides pre-installed Linux on their pc or one that will give you a rebate. > > HP has made their case very clear, there is no point in going further down this path if you value your time. > > Vote with your pocket book, make a difference that way and let HP know why they lost a sale. I just don't buy HP because they make crappy products. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 20:58:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:58:40 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240272349.3976.206.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090420205839.GY3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 08:05:49PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I > like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they > do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a > consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft > stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to > the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the manufacturer > can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. Well no accounting for taste in products. I expect my computers to last a very long time. > I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint > was out of their jurisdiction. > I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no competition > rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay for Windows. The > consumer can always install Linux after paying for Windows, so what's > the problem? Certainly true, and it would probably cost more to run seperate manufacturing steps for systems with and without windows than the cost of windows. > HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their > sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS > be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. Some linux users build their own machines, and hence don't pay any windows tax. A problem for laptops perhaps, but simple for desktops. > Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for > something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been > suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get the > OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course of > action--can anyone else give feedback on this? And if HP decided that they would sell you a system without windows but charge the difference for the higher cost of building a custom system that most people wouldn't buy? How about the extra cost of stocking an unusual configuration? After all the BIOS on that system has a code in it permitting it to run the HP OEM copy of windows without an activation key being entered seperately. So even if they deleted windows, you could easily load it again from any HP OEM windows disk. So they would have to give you a custom designed board/BIOS that didn't have the OEM activation feature in it. So if you want to buy mass produced machines at a low cost, you have to put up with everything that involves. Currently that includes getting a copy of windows that will only run on that type of machine. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 20:59:10 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:59:10 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <000c01c9c1f6$caabc4a0$3a08a8c0@newdesktop> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <000c01c9c1f6$caabc4a0$3a08a8c0@newdesktop> Message-ID: <49ECE21E.8090706@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 04:30 PM, Matthew Middleton wrote: > I'm no expert in the legal arena, but I don't think small claims is the > answer. > > First, did they claim or promise to make Linux available, or to offer the > model you want with no O/S? If not, they're not really on the hook. Think > of it this way: If you were buying a car made by GM, you couldn't really go > after them if you wanted a Honda engine installed instead. As well, they > are under no obligation to sell you an engine-less car (for equal or less > cost), as that's not an option that they offer. They're not under any legal > obligations to offer you anything more or less than what they choose to > sell. I agree. You'd be fighting a losing battle. What it comes down to is that HP is not doing anything illegal. It's analogous to taking Apple to court because they sell their iPods with their own proprietary firmware. > Second, it seems like a lot of effort and stress to make a point that could > be made much more easily - vote with your money. Buy a laptop from a vendor > who WILL ship with Linux. Even if it's not the distro you want, it's not > likey you'll be paying for the O/S anyway. Another good strategy is to > write them a letter, informing them of your decision, as well as the fact > that you will be sure to encourage others NOT to buy HP. Word of mouth > counts for a lot, and if you blog about it, mention it to your social > circle, etc., it might just surprise you how effective it can be. > > All the above is just my opinion, so please feel free to take it with a > grain or two of salt :) Mine too. What's worse: you'll contribute to the increasingly popular reputation that Linux users have of being over-zealous and overly provocative. We (I?) don't want to be perceived as the w***y b***h who throws a tantrum whenever the "competition" "wins".. so, do it the right way. Writing a letter shows that you've invested some time into making your statement and comes off as a non-hostile gesture; invoking the wrath of The Justice System (tm) just sends the wrong message IMHO. Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:12:20 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:12:20 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240272349.3976.206.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1240276340.3976.287.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello all, As I get responses from you (thank you very much) I would like you to look at this issue beyond HP and apply it to all manufacturers. To their credit, HP had a policy where they voided harware warranties if Linux was installed, which they since rescinded. This policy should be applicable to any manufacturer across the board, be it Dell, Sony, Toshiba, Ummagumma, whatever. The reason no O/S is available as an an option manufacturers in other countries is because consumers were active to voice their concerns and make a change. Some said 'vote with dollars', I respectfully submit that this is not possible to do in Canada at this time. For instance, with Dell, only select models have Ubuntu installed. What if I wanted a model where Ubuntu is not an option? Such is the case--the computers I want have Windows installed. A consumer ought to purchase ANY model from ANY manufacturer and decide whether s/he wishes to have the Windows O/S. I do not think this is asking for the moon. In our society, we should have choice. -I- On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 20:05 -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, > > As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I > like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they > do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a > consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft > stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to > the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the > manufacturer can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. > > I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint > was out of their jurisdiction. > I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no > competition rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay > for Windows. The consumer can always install Linux after paying for > Windows, so what's the problem? > > HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their > sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS > be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. > > Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for > something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been > suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get > the OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course > of action--can anyone else give feedback on this? > > Thanks in advance, > > Ib Khider -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:16:02 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:16:02 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right--Lennart Sorenson's comment In-Reply-To: <20090420205839.GY3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090420205839.GY3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1240276563.3976.295.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Lennart and thank you for your response. May I point out that instead of asking HP to ship no O/S machines, that a rebate could also be implemented after the fact. I want to make this proccess as easy on the manufacturer as possible. Microsoft offered this as a solution. That way we don't need to 'stop the presses', just have pesky Linux users like me get a rebate for the Windows O/S when I send back the installation disc. : - ) -I- On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:58 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 08:05:49PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > > As some of you may know, I am in an ongoing battle with HP (because I > > like their product) to have no O/S on my laptop as an option like they > > do in Europe, US, Australia, etc.. HP thinks it is fine to make a > > consumer pay for the Windows O/S when s/he does not need it. Microsoft > > stated a rebate for the O/S is availble for those who do not agree to > > the Microsoft End User Licence Agreement. However, only the manufacturer > > can apply for the rebate, not the consumer. > > Well no accounting for taste in products. I expect my computers to last > a very long time. > > > I spoke with the Better Business Bureau and they stated the complaint > > was out of their jurisdiction. > > I also spoke with the competition Bureau who stated that no competition > > rules are being violated by forcing the consumer to pay for Windows. The > > consumer can always install Linux after paying for Windows, so what's > > the problem? > > Certainly true, and it would probably cost more to run seperate > manufacturing steps for systems with and without windows than the cost > of windows. > > > HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their > > sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS > > be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. > > Some linux users build their own machines, and hence don't pay any > windows tax. A problem for laptops perhaps, but simple for desktops. > > > Perhaps I am on naiive for thinking this, but I do not want to pay for > > something I do not need. In this case the Windows O/S. It has been > > suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims Court and get the > > OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate this course of > > action--can anyone else give feedback on this? > > And if HP decided that they would sell you a system without windows but > charge the difference for the higher cost of building a custom system > that most people wouldn't buy? How about the extra cost of stocking an > unusual configuration? After all the BIOS on that system has a code in > it permitting it to run the HP OEM copy of windows without an activation > key being entered seperately. So even if they deleted windows, you > could easily load it again from any HP OEM windows disk. So they would > have to give you a custom designed board/BIOS that didn't have the OEM > activation feature in it. > > So if you want to buy mass produced machines at a low cost, you have to > put up with everything that involves. Currently that includes getting > a copy of windows that will only run on that type of machine. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 21:21:43 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:21:43 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240276340.3976.287.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240276340.3976.287.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090420212142.GZ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:12:20PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > As I get responses from you (thank you very much) I would like you to > look at this issue beyond HP and apply it to all manufacturers. To their > credit, HP had a policy where they voided harware warranties if Linux > was installed, which they since rescinded. This policy should be > applicable to any manufacturer across the board, be it Dell, Sony, > Toshiba, Ummagumma, whatever. The reason no O/S is available as an an > option manufacturers in other countries is because consumers were active > to voice their concerns and make a change. > > Some said 'vote with dollars', I respectfully submit that this is not > possible to do in Canada at this time. For instance, with Dell, only > select models have Ubuntu installed. What if I wanted a model where > Ubuntu is not an option? Such is the case--the computers I want have > Windows installed. A consumer ought to purchase ANY model from ANY > manufacturer and decide whether s/he wishes to have the Windows O/S. Who says you should have that choice? If you buy a Mac, it comes with Mac OS X installed. If you buy some HP models, they come with Windows installed. That's just how they come and that is how they are built. It is called mass production, and it helps to lower overall costs. If you want a Toyota Camry in lime green with purple flowers on it, should Toyota offer it in that colour, or offer it unpainted so that you can get it painted yourself and reduce the cost by the amount they didn't spend on painting it? It's the same thing. Just because making a laptop without an OS is pretty easy, doesn't mean it is simple to do with a given manufacturing process without adding useless extra costs. > I do not think this is asking for the moon. In our society, we should > have choice. And if HP decided that the model includes what OS is on it for simplicity, then you want a model that includes windows. If you don't want windows, then you want a different model, which isn't one HP makes, probably because they don't think there is a market for it big enough to justify the costs. I would love to see lots of computers offered without windows on them, but I also like to spend as little as possible for good hardware. -- leN Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 21:24:24 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:24:24 -0400 Subject: [OT?] Copyright infringement, Scrabulous, and the GPL Message-ID: <49ECE808.4060307@ualberta.ca> I figure this the place to ask about my question concerning copyright. After doing some light reading on copyright infringement, I'm still a bit unclear on what qualifies as infringement. It is clear to me that making an exact copy of a copyrighted item and distributing it is a clear case of infringement (a song, a movie, etc.). I'm interested in games, board games in particular, and the case with Scrabulous. Scrabulous got nailed with lawsuits because they referred to Scrabble and used a trademarked name attached to their product; they have now renamed their service to Lexulous, but it's still the exact same game as Scrabble except with slightly different colors. I know another server which offers play-by-email games (http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/) and he has a lot of popular games implemented under different names as well. Brettspeilwelt and Game Table Online actually use the game's name and graphics, but I'm assuming they have deals with the respective gaming companies. So my question is this: is it legal to implement a (say GPL'd) online game which allows users to play a game whose original rules etc. are under copyrights /as long as you don't use their names and art/? Is it legal to distribute the implementation under GPL? If so, "how legal" is this? Suppose I do this.. should I be prepared to have lawyers knocking on my door? Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 21:25:00 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:25:00 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right--Lennart Sorenson's comment In-Reply-To: <1240276563.3976.295.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090420205839.GY3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1240276563.3976.295.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090420212500.GA3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:16:02PM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Hello Lennart and thank you for your response. > > May I point out that instead of asking HP to ship no O/S machines, that > a rebate could also be implemented after the fact. I want to make this > proccess as easy on the manufacturer as possible. Microsoft offered this > as a solution. That way we don't need to 'stop the presses', just have > pesky Linux users like me get a rebate for the Windows O/S when I send > back the installation disc. You can't make that machine not able to run whatever version of windows it comes with. The license info to control that is built into the machine and does not go away just because you delete windows from the HD. They would have to redesign part of the BIOS/system info to remove it, which is counter productive to them building these as cheaply as possible. So since you can't actually remove the license key from the machine, why should they give you back any money? How do they know you won't just install windows from a friends disc for the same model? Microsoft would never be able to tell that the machine is no longer licensed. This is how OEM windows loads work these days in order to make a single image able to be loaded on a whole line of machines without having to manage activation on a per machine case. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 21:38:25 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:38:25 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240276340.3976.287.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240276340.3976.287.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49ECEB51.3070802@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 09:12 PM, I. Khider wrote: > Hello all, > > As I get responses from you (thank you very much) I would like you to > look at this issue beyond HP and apply it to all manufacturers. To their > credit, HP had a policy where they voided harware warranties if Linux > was installed, which they since rescinded. This policy should be > applicable to any manufacturer across the board, be it Dell, Sony, > Toshiba, Ummagumma, whatever. The reason no O/S is available as an an > option manufacturers in other countries is because consumers were active > to voice their concerns and make a change. > > Some said 'vote with dollars', I respectfully submit that this is not > possible to do in Canada at this time. For instance, with Dell, only > select models have Ubuntu installed. What if I wanted a model where > Ubuntu is not an option? Such is the case--the computers I want have > Windows installed. A consumer ought to purchase ANY model from ANY > manufacturer and decide whether s/he wishes to have the Windows O/S. > > I do not think this is asking for the moon. In our society, we should > have choice. I'd love for the choice to be law or the norm. I'm sure many of us would. We're still far from that now, I think, but the question is how will we get there? It's not going to happen overnight, regardless of how much we may want it to. We won't get there by retaliating using the legal means (in this case). You can't go up to McDonalds and tell them that you have the right to have gluten-free hamburger buns. The best you'll do is get 10 free burgers, but I doubt HP will be that generous :) If you don't like their product, you have the consumer-endowed power of buying elsewhere. The economy is what drives companies to listen to consumer demands, not legal action. Shake their hands and thank them for their service, inform them that you're taking your business elsewhere. Don't punch them in the face. The more Linux users respond with hostility, the less inclined HP will be to want to support Linux. The more they see incoming letters of "thanks but no thanks -- I'm going with company X because they either offer Linux or give me the choice", they will eventually realize they have to do this. It just takes time and volume. Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 21:56:33 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:56:33 -0400 Subject: [OT?] Copyright infringement, Scrabulous, and the GPL In-Reply-To: <49ECE808.4060307-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49ECE808.4060307@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1240264593.13312.605.camel@leon> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:24 -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > I figure this the place to ask about my question concerning copyright. > So my question is this: is it legal to implement a (say GPL'd) online > game which allows users to play a game whose original rules etc. are > under copyrights /as long as you don't use their names and art/? If you really plan to do this, with real money and real risk, it is insane to ask anybody except your own well-paid lawyer to help you judge the risks that you will truly own. I can recommend excellent lawyers in this area. If you ask only to chit chat, I think your idea sounds risky as demonstrated by Scrabulous. Copyright is one issue, trade mark is another. There are probably other issues involved as well. I think wilful infringement makes it more expensive, though that may relate only to patents. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 22:02:36 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT?] Copyright infringement, Scrabulous, and the GPL In-Reply-To: <49ECE808.4060307-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49ECE808.4060307@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > I'm interested in games, board games in particular, and the case with > Scrabulous. Scrabulous got nailed with lawsuits because they referred to > Scrabble and used a trademarked name attached to their product; they have now > renamed their service to Lexulous, but it's still the exact same game as Hi Marc. IANAL. I'm a long time boardgame player[1]. My understanding from discussions around the boardgaming community is that games themselves _cannot_ be copyrighted but the rules and artwork can. As a result it is possible to produce a "work alike" game as long as it doesn't look like the original or share the same words in the rules. Again, IANAL but this is a topic that has been discussed in boardgaming circles. > So my question is this: is it legal to implement a (say GPL'd) online game > which allows users to play a game whose original rules etc. are under Quite a number of board games can be played online and often with the original name and artwork. In these cases I presume permission was granted or they are flying underneath the radar. [1] These days I'm mostly into German Games. Favourite games include Mideast Peace, Medici, & Merchant of Venus. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 22:04:29 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:04:29 -0400 Subject: [OT?] Copyright infringement, Scrabulous, and the GPL In-Reply-To: <1240264593.13312.605.camel@leon> References: <49ECE808.4060307@ualberta.ca> <1240264593.13312.605.camel@leon> Message-ID: <49ECF16D.30404@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 05:56 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:24 -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> I figure this the place to ask about my question concerning copyright. > >> So my question is this: is it legal to implement a (say GPL'd) online >> game which allows users to play a game whose original rules etc. are >> under copyrights /as long as you don't use their names and art/? > > If you really plan to do this, with real money and real risk, it is > insane to ask anybody except your own well-paid lawyer to help you judge > the risks that you will truly own. I can recommend excellent lawyers in > this area. Haha.. true, I planed on doing that once I've got more than just the foundation... I just wanted to see if I'd be wasting my time developing the rest of it. I'll have to take you up on the recommendations, though I may only contact them in a month or two. Should I deal exclusively with copyright infringement experts, in the software contect in particular ? So that I'm prepared for it.. how much will this set me back? > If you ask only to chit chat, I think your idea sounds risky as > demonstrated by Scrabulous. Copyright is one issue, trade mark is > another. There are probably other issues involved as well. I think > wilful infringement makes it more expensive, though that may relate only > to patents. It's not just to chit chat; it actually could be a lot worse than it sounds because it might be more than one copyrighted game. I am of course still interested in doing this.. I have been for some time. As long as what I'm doing and/or the way I go about it is legal. Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 22:10:50 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:10:50 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <1240272349.3976.206.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> I. Khider wrote: > HP said they will only change their policy if it will impact their > sales. As it stands, Linux users are too shy to ask for the Windows OS > be removed. Linux users (it seems) in fact like to pay for Windows. Sorry, but this statement indicates both why you have no case and why you *should* have no case. If you don't like HP's policy, don't buy HP. Or don't buy *that* HP model, and choose one that has Linux pre-installed (ie, http://news.cnet.com/8301-13845_3-10076884-58.html) But please stop whining about it. This is no different than any other consumer purchase decision in which some of the choices include features you don't use. I don't use Bluetooth -- but I recently bought a laptop that had built-in Bluetooth. That extra electronics (and potential battery drain) I was prepared to pay "extra" for, because I liked the rest of the total package (keyboard, weight, peripheral slots, Linux device support, company reputation, reliability, etc.) It's not AT ALL that I'm too "shy" to ask for a system without Bluetooth. I simply made the decision that one overall package of features was a better value than its alternatives. That occasionally means -- in a car, a camera, or a computer -- paying for features I don't want in order to get the features I really do need. Having Windows pre-installed, for a Linux user, is simply an example of one such "feature" that you don't use. Treating it as anything more than that -- as if it's your *right* to get the HP model of your choice shipped without Windows -- will (and should) get you laughed at by the BBB and government consumer agencies. I hope they were at least polite in blowing you off. You have a choice not to buy HP. That's the strongest possible statement you can make -- if enough other people make the same decision then HP will change its approach. And now that an increasing number of vendors are making Linux options available you can't say you have no choice. Or if it really really matters to you, buy the no-OS laptop from a foreign retailer and be prepared to pay the premium that such a choice requires. > It has been suggested I buy the laptop and take HP to Small Claims > Court and get the OS cost back that way. Two people from TLUG advocate > this course of action--can anyone else give feedback on this? As I wrote in an earlier email, the amount of money that laptop vendors pays Microsoft varies from $15 (for XP on netbooks) to $70 (for Vista on larger laptops). After discounting subsidies for demonstration software pre-loads (ie, anti-virus), the amount you would stand to receive -- in the unlikely event you win(*) -- would barely cover the cost of parking under city hall for your court trip and the gas to get you there. And... what is your time worth? - Evan (*) -- just my opinion. IANAL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 22:33:46 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:33:46 -0400 Subject: No OS as a right In-Reply-To: <49ECF2EA.10301-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090420223346.GB3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 06:10:50PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I don't use Bluetooth -- but I recently bought a laptop that had > built-in Bluetooth. That extra electronics (and potential battery drain) > I was prepared to pay "extra" for, because I liked the rest of the total > package (keyboard, weight, peripheral slots, Linux device support, > company reputation, reliability, etc.) It's not AT ALL that I'm too > "shy" to ask for a system without Bluetooth. I simply made the decision > that one overall package of features was a better value than its > alternatives. That occasionally means -- in a car, a camera, or a > computer -- paying for features I don't want in order to get the > features I really do need. Exactly. I would love a laptop in a solid metal case, with a 20" LCD with 1920x1200 resolution, preferably a nice PVA panel, 1TB diskspace, 8GB ram, quad core cpu, firewire, usb, esata, blueray, wireless abgn, perfect linux support for all the hardware, weighing 2 pounds and having a 10 hour battery life, and costing $299. I am not going to get one. Doesn't matter how much I whine, no one is going to build one and sell it to me like that. You can buy what you can get, or you can buy nothing. If what you want does not exist then you don't get to buy it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:36:05 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:36:05 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <49ECF2EA.10301-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> Message-ID: <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, Notwisthstanding the comments I received on this list, nobody convinced me that major manufacturers are right to build computers solely around the Windows operating system. The idea of building whole industries around one proprietary operating system is absurd. About as absurd as saying that monetary parametres are the sole means of defining what is right and wrong. Allow me to illustrate a simple case in point, I elected to acquire a business class laptop. Most manufacturers have a business class models such as HP, Toshiba (the pro and tecra lines) or any other manufacturer. In the corporate/institutional/technical world linux/uninx is the standard, not Windows. Be it supply chain management, hospitals, infrastructure or whathaveyou. To sell laptops based around the Windows operating system in this category is counterproductive to the corporate/infrastructural/public service world at large. It just makes sense to offer no O/S as an option in this area. The simple issue is manufacturers say you must pay for Windows, whether you need it or not, and that is flat out wrong. Companies once had a policy that dumping toxic byproducts in the environment was perfectly acceptible behaviour until citizens lobbied governments to legislate otherwise. Consumer advocacy can be positive and help companies develop positive policies--even if comapnies are against what consumers advocate in the short term, in the long run they could be doing said companies a favor. I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not counterintuitive here. -I- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 23:54:59 2009 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:54:59 -0700 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:36 PM, I. Khider wrote: > I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not > counterintuitive here. You're missing the fact that this is a simple matter of supply and demand. HP is offering you a machine with Windows pre-installed. You can choose to take the offer and buy one or you can choose not to. No one is cramming anything down your throat. I agree that it's frustrating to have to pay for a license you're never going to use. I'd like to be able to buy a "naked" PC from any manufacturer I choose but no one has done anything wrong but not making such PCs available to me. In my non-lawyer opinion, you don't have a case to present at small claims court precisely because no one has done anything wrong. The advice you were given was to vote with your wallet and let HP know about it by writing a letter. You can also work towards effecting change by spreading the word that HP won't sell you a Windows-free machine. But HP is a corporation operating in a largely free market--their prime directive is profit-making and they're going to optimize towards making money. Non-Windows users are apparently not a big-enough market for them to worry about. The only way you're going to get anywhere with them is to convince someone important that non-Windows users _are_ a big-enough market to worry about. That might be impossible because they get to decide how big is big enough and it might be that the current market is too small. The people on this list probably all agree that it would be ideal to be able to buy an arbitrary machine with either Linux or no OS pre-installed. The fact that you're being told not to go to small claims court and to quit whining is due to something else entirely--the realization that HP doesn't owe anything to anybody. If the world changes and Linux users become the dominant laptop-buying consumer, HP will either adapt and start selling laptops with Linux or HP will get out of the laptop business. In the time between now and then, HP has to decide for itself whether it makes financial sense to get into the business of selling laptops with Linux. At this point, it seems they don't think it's worth the money. You can try changing their collective mind but, AFAIK, you won't get very far suing them for having the "wrong" opinion. Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 04:08:49 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:08:49 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1240286929.3976.649.camel@khider.homenetwork> Okay Ian, Let me rephrase the question to you and all TLUG members--what would make me have a case? -I- On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:54 -0700, Ian Petersen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:36 PM, I. Khider wrote: > > I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not > > counterintuitive here. > > You're missing the fact that this is a simple matter of supply and > demand. HP is offering you a machine with Windows pre-installed. You > can choose to take the offer and buy one or you can choose not to. No > one is cramming anything down your throat. I agree that it's > frustrating to have to pay for a license you're never going to use. > I'd like to be able to buy a "naked" PC from any manufacturer I choose > but no one has done anything wrong but not making such PCs available > to me. In my non-lawyer opinion, you don't have a case to present at > small claims court precisely because no one has done anything wrong. > > The advice you were given was to vote with your wallet and let HP know > about it by writing a letter. You can also work towards effecting > change by spreading the word that HP won't sell you a Windows-free > machine. But HP is a corporation operating in a largely free > market--their prime directive is profit-making and they're going to > optimize towards making money. Non-Windows users are apparently not a > big-enough market for them to worry about. The only way you're going > to get anywhere with them is to convince someone important that > non-Windows users _are_ a big-enough market to worry about. That > might be impossible because they get to decide how big is big enough > and it might be that the current market is too small. > > The people on this list probably all agree that it would be ideal to > be able to buy an arbitrary machine with either Linux or no OS > pre-installed. The fact that you're being told not to go to small > claims court and to quit whining is due to something else > entirely--the realization that HP doesn't owe anything to anybody. If > the world changes and Linux users become the dominant laptop-buying > consumer, HP will either adapt and start selling laptops with Linux or > HP will get out of the laptop business. In the time between now and > then, HP has to decide for itself whether it makes financial sense to > get into the business of selling laptops with Linux. At this point, > it seems they don't think it's worth the money. You can try changing > their collective mind but, AFAIK, you won't get very far suing them > for having the "wrong" opinion. > > Ian > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 00:54:07 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:54:07 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240286929.3976.649.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7@mail.gmail.com> <1240286929.3976.649.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:08 AM, I. Khider wrote: > Let me rephrase the question to you and all TLUG members--what would make me > have a case? In order to have the basis for a civil lawsuit, you need to have *some* legal basis for claiming either that: a) A vendor had agreed to sell you a computer running Linux, and did not live up their contractual obligation, or b) There is some sort of tort involved in neglecting to offer to sell a computer running Linux. The latter requires that you establish that the vendor had some specific duty to exercise some standard of care which they failed due to not including Linux. It seems to me that trying to establish tort would require torturous reasoning, and it is not at all obvious to me that this establishes the sort of legal precedents that I'd want to have around. I'm not sure that this is a legal fight I'd want to see either fought or won. I don't think that there's either any obvious "basic Human Right" here or any obvious sort of tort involved. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Charles de Gaulle - "The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/charles_de_gaulle.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 00:53:57 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:53:57 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240286929.3976.649.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7@mail.gmail.com> <1240286929.3976.649.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <18925.6437.446433.320655@hetman.ua> >>>>> "IK" == I Khider writes: IK> Let me rephrase the question to you and all TLUG members--what IK> would make me have a case? I think demanding a refund for the OS is reasonable, especially if MS supports this option (you seem to have mentioned they do). Asking HP to sell you a custom laptop at retail price is not. I always curse when buying a laptop, but my time costs more than their OS, so I pay... Good luck in any case. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:22:05 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:22:05 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49ED1FBD.10100@dinamis.com> I. Khider wrote: > Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, > > Notwisthstanding the comments I received on this list, nobody convinced > me that major manufacturers are right to build computers solely around > the Windows operating system. The idea of building whole industries > around one proprietary operating system is absurd. About as absurd as > saying that monetary parametres are the sole means of defining what is > right and wrong. Allow me to illustrate a simple case in point, I > elected to acquire a business class laptop. Most manufacturers have a > business class models such as HP, Toshiba (the pro and tecra lines) or > any other manufacturer. In the corporate/institutional/technical world > linux/uninx is the standard, not Windows. Be it supply chain management, > hospitals, infrastructure or whathaveyou. When did this happen? I'm a big fan of Linux but I would not be deluded as to think it has become "the standard" anywhere but amongst a minority of users. > To sell laptops based around > the Windows operating system in this category is counterproductive to > the corporate/infrastructural/public service world at large. It just > makes sense to offer no O/S as an option in this area. > > The simple issue is manufacturers say you must pay for Windows, whether > you need it or not, and that is flat out wrong. Most manufacturers also say you need to pay for Bluetooth, whether you need it or not. Ditto for USB and wireless. Is that wrong too? By the way, there is one brand of notebook that I know of that you can purchase locally with no operating system, MSI. Don't expect to save any money though. As long as Microsoft isn't penalizing manufacturers that sell "naked" systems or systems loaded with another operating system, there is nothing wrong with a manufacturer deciding that it will offer Windows exclusively, or not. > Companies once had a > policy that dumping toxic byproducts in the environment was perfectly > acceptible behaviour until citizens lobbied governments to legislate > otherwise. Consumer advocacy can be positive and help companies develop > positive policies--even if comapnies are against what consumers advocate > in the short term, in the long run they could be doing said companies a > favor. If you're suggesting that governments ought to pass laws that force companies to modify their products to suit your wishes, I don't see how that is an improvement on the status quo. > I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not > counterintuitive here. As a wonderful Turkish saying goes, you seem to be more pro-king than the king. Just because this is a LUG doesn't mean we need to behave like "fanbois" and take leave of our senses. You're tilting at windmills and seem to be treating this like some sort of crusade. Just buy something else and get over it. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:37:55 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:37:55 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:36 PM, I. Khider wrote: > Greetings fellow Linux enthusiasts, > > Notwisthstanding the comments I received on this list, nobody convinced me > that major manufacturers are right to build computers solely around the > Windows operating system. The idea of building whole industries around one > proprietary operating system is absurd. About as absurd as saying that > monetary parametres are the sole means of defining what is right and wrong. > Allow me to illustrate a simple case in point, I elected to acquire a > business class laptop. Most manufacturers have a business class models such > as HP, Toshiba (the pro and tecra lines) or any other manufacturer. In the > corporate/institutional/technical world linux/uninx is the standard, not > Windows. Be it supply chain management, hospitals, infrastructure or > whathaveyou. To sell laptops based around the Windows operating system in > this category is counterproductive to the corporate/infrastructural/public > service world at large. It just makes sense to offer no O/S as an option in > this area. > > The simple issue is manufacturers say you must pay for Windows, whether you > need it or not, and that is flat out wrong. Companies once had a policy that > dumping toxic byproducts in the environment was perfectly acceptible > behaviour until citizens lobbied governments to legislate otherwise. > Consumer advocacy can be positive and help companies develop positive > policies--even if comapnies are against what consumers advocate in the short > term, in the long run they could be doing said companies a favor. > > I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not > counterintuitive here. No, I think it's just that you're misunderstanding what people are saying. I agree with you that the Windows monopoly is absurd. I dare say that most people on here agree with that. Does that mean that HP should be legally required to fight the monopoly? I don't know about that. The thing is, you _do_ have a choice. You may not like the choice you have, but you do have one. You can very easily find another vendor who will sell you a laptop without Windows installed. Since HP is therefore _not_ forcing you to buy their laptop with Windows installed, there is really no case to be made against them. Is it a stupid business decision? I don't know, HP seems to be doing alright. Should you write them a long and detailed letter about why their decision is wrong? Sure. Why not. I still don't understand what the big deal is about HP. I can guarantee you there are other vendors who can supply you with a superior laptop at a comparable price. Hell, Lennart can probably tell you off the top of his head where you can buy one right now ;) B. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:44:08 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:44:08 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question Message-ID: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> I wrote a program at work because I couldn't find a good open source solution. Obviously, it is now a property of my employer. Initial request to my boss to make it available under GPL didn't meet understanding. So I shut up. But what if I re-wrote it in a completely different language, preserving the functionality and user interface (command line) as is and released under GPL, would it still be a copyright violation? Thanks, -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 01:45:20 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:45:20 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49ED2530.4080300@telly.org> I. Khider wrote: > Notwisthstanding the comments I received on this list, nobody > convinced me that major manufacturers are right to build computers > solely around the Windows operating system. One shouldn't need "convincing" about matters of provable fact. Manufacturers do NOT build computers solely around Windows. Some computers come pre-installed with Solaris. Some do indeed offer Linux as a pre-load. Even HP has Linux pre-loads on some models, as I attempted to demonstrate previously. Your whine^H^H^H^H^Hcomplaint is that the specific model that YOU want only has Windows as a pre-load. Too bad. Choose the bundle or don't. HP owes you nothing -- and, conversely, you certainly don't owe HP your business if they don't offer a computer you'd want to buy, for whatever reason. But buying an HP computer with Windows installed and then suing HP for giving you what you bought? Sorry, but to me that is not only just foolish, it impacts me as a taxpayer because I help fund the court system that you seem eager to clog with yet another pointless and frivolous lawsuit. Then again, in Canadian courts the loser often pays the winners' legal fees, so perhaps you may yet get an expensive lesson out of this process. > The idea of building whole industries around one proprietary operating > system is absurd. That idea lives or dies in the marketplace. If there is demand for systems without Windows pre-installed, suppliers will offer it. There are not enough of you around to make a Linux pre-installed system (in the model of your choice) important to HP. Well, at least not here -- I'll take your word for it that there is enough demand in other parts of the world to make Linux pre-installs marketable for HP elsewhere. > Most manufacturers have a business class models such as HP, Toshiba > (the pro and tecra lines) or any other manufacturer. In the > corporate/institutional/technical world linux/uninx is the standard, > not Windows. That is your personal assertion. Obviously HP asserts otherwise. If they are wrong they will suffer in the marketplace, and react accordingly. HP's continuance in the market indicates that they are comfortable with their assessment of what is "standard". Of course life in the server world -- and the approach to OS selection there -- is much different that it is on the desktop or laptop. There I would think that HP would be very proactive in its Linux support. But perhaps they do not see much traction for Linux desktops, and whether they are correct or not in that view, they are not alone in holding it. (http://www.workswithu.com/2009/04/06/red-hat-dismisses-consumer-desktop-linux-again/) > Be it supply chain management, hospitals, infrastructure or > whathaveyou. To sell laptops based around the Windows operating system > in this category is counterproductive to the > corporate/infrastructural/public service world at large. It just makes > sense to offer no O/S as an option in this area. If that were the case then HP's business laptop division would be highly unprofitable. However I do not believe that to be accurate. What "makes sense" to HP is the path that will maximize revenue. They owe you nothing. > The simple issue is manufacturers say you must pay for Windows, > whether you need it or not, and that is flat out wrong. That is an assertion of morality, not logic and certainly not the most basic economics. > Companies once had a policy that dumping toxic byproducts in the > environment was perfectly acceptible behaviour until citizens lobbied > governments to legislate otherwise. Consumer advocacy can be positive > and help companies develop positive policies--even if comapnies are > against what consumers advocate in the short term, in the long run > they could be doing said companies a favor. No matter what anyone here thinks about Microsoft, I would suggest that comparing the sales of Windows to the dumping of toxic waste would be considered an extreme position, and not one that a distinterested public would take seriously. > I thought this was the Linux users group! Indeed it is. However, it is not (universally) the Linux zealots' group. Not everyone here buys into the choice of OS as a good-versus-evil morality play. > Surely my views are not counterintuitive here. Well, they certainly go counter to any intiution I have about what constitutes a "right". - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 06:24:56 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:24:56 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hmmm, Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea of pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, equally horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. The fact that students have to resort to piracy to get software they need from Mac or Windows to develop their education and ideas is pretty toxic in my books. That an artist, 2/3d designer has to pirate software to develop their ideas--the list goes on. This list states I am taking an extreme pro-Linux stance when I am say we need 'choice' is unfair--I am looking for balance. I say, resort to civil means if one has to--to re-introduce balance and harmony. That opensource options are not being pursued because companies have successfuly marginalized them out of existence thanks to consumer complacency--especially in Canada. We live in a society where proprietary software is the default and to implement opensource/free software has to be an uphill battle. Why not default to free and then pick proprietary if we want it? I will tell you why I am not extreme, easily. look around you, Windows and Mac/OS is the default--we are already in an extreme position. I am saying let us have balance and choice. How is that extreme? think about it. Companies dictate our tools, culture, and development--I am saying let the consumer have a say because we are part of the same ecosystem as the companies. We have the right to ask them to change the policy because they are as much a part of society as we are. We owe it to each other. So I am the one whining here? There is a difference between making a statement and whining, and I am making a clear statement--these companies need to be taken to task. I support these companies, we all do--because we nned them and vice versa. If I run a business and my clients ask a small reasonable change to make their lives easier (at almost no cost to me) you bet I will give it to them! Do unto others as you would have done yourself. In the words of Chuck D, if I can't change the people around me, then I change the people around me. I take my whining, extremist self off this list and good luck to you all. Thanks, -i- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 02:42:20 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:42:20 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240295096.3976.888.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: On 4/21/09, I. Khider wrote: > Hmmm, > > Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea of > pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, equally > horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. The fact that > students have to resort to piracy to get software they need from Mac or > Windows to develop their education and ideas is pretty toxic in my > books. That an artist, 2/3d designer has to pirate software to develop > their ideas--the list goes on. This list states I am taking an extreme > pro-Linux stance when I am say we need 'choice' is unfair--I am looking > for balance. I say, resort to civil means if one has to--to re-introduce > balance and harmony. That opensource options are not being pursued > because companies have successfuly marginalized them out of existence > thanks to consumer complacency--especially in Canada. Having windows pre-installed on a machine sucks. That noted, the question is where to go from here? The best real world option in my books would be to: - Buy the hardware you want. - Refuse to accept the included MS Windows licence - Go after the hardware vendor, take them to small claims court if required. Henry Ford once noted of the Model T automobile "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.". Point was, that for the first year of production the Model T was offered in 6 colours, but then to cut down on costs Ford reduced the colour options down to just black. Various PC vendors selling with just one OS is a pain, but unlike the days of Henry Ford, there is the licence refusal option and legal means that you can use to recover $ from the vendor... > We live in a society where proprietary software is the default and to > implement opensource/free software has to be an uphill battle. Why not > default to free and then pick proprietary if we want it? > > I will tell you why I am not extreme, easily. look around you, Windows > and Mac/OS is the default--we are already in an extreme position. I am > saying let us have balance and choice. How is that extreme? think about > it. Companies dictate our tools, culture, and development--I am saying > let the consumer have a say because we are part of the same ecosystem as > the companies. We have the right to ask them to change the policy > because they are as much a part of society as we are. We owe it to each > other. > > So I am the one whining here? There is a difference between making a > statement and whining, and I am making a clear statement--these > companies need to be taken to task. I support these companies, we all > do--because we nned them and vice versa. If I run a business and my > clients ask a small reasonable change to make their lives easier (at > almost no cost to me) you bet I will give it to them! Do unto others as > you would have done yourself. > > In the words of Chuck D, if I can't change the people around me, then I > change the people around me. > > I take my whining, extremist self off this list and good luck to you > all. > > Thanks, > > -i- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 02:39:17 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:39:17 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240295096.3976.888.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenet work> Message-ID: <49ED31D5.1030307@dinamis.com> I. Khider wrote: > Hmmm, > > Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea of > pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, equally > horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. The fact that > students have to resort to piracy to get software they need from Mac or > Windows to develop their education and ideas is pretty toxic in my > books. That an artist, 2/3d designer has to pirate software to develop > their ideas--the list goes on. No one has to "pirate" software. That student has the option of running free alternatives regardless of whether the OS is Linux, Windows, or OS X. The underlying OS is only part of the equation. No one forces you to buy Windows or OS X, as has already been pointed out to you several times. Even with notebook computers, you have the option of buying "naked" machines and installing Linux yourself or buying Linux pre-loaded from various vendors, including HP. You just seem to want to pick a fight. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 02:50:49 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:50:49 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: <18925.9448.202528.388280-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <20090420225049.2bfe19ea.tleslie@tcn.net> if you are a contractor, you may have more ownership to it then you think (which is none if you were not). rewriting a program in a different language, essentially a token/form replacement, maybe a bit more, isn't going to cut it, a program is "how it does stuff", not what its written in. you wouldn't violate copyright necessarily, and that I don't think is the point, you would violate your employment agreement with your employer, which could see you dismissed with cause, and you would have no way to fight it, and also open to $$ damages. You would have to make full effort to rewrite the program from design up. You may even have stuff in your employment contract that would prevent you from even doing this (i.e. would you be in competition, or have harmed your employers revenue?). You just have to abide by the terms of your emp. contract plain and simple. (and the general rules regarding property produced for an employer). If you like your job... i suggest you fully disclose your intentions to your boss ... (if you want to carry forward with it). On the positive side, if what you did was straight forward engineering, and not something your employer cares about existing (With respect to competition), you can build it again, this time faster, because of what you've learned, and make it even better, and that would be ok, but then you still might be pissing of your employer :( -tl On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:44:08 -0400 Viktor Pavlenko wrote: > I wrote a program at work because I couldn't find a good open source > solution. Obviously, it is now a property of my employer. Initial > request to my boss to make it available under GPL didn't meet > understanding. So I shut up. > > But what if I re-wrote it in a completely different language, > preserving the functionality and user interface (command line) as is > and released under GPL, would it still be a copyright violation? > > Thanks, > > -- > Viktor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 02:55:59 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:55:59 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: <18925.9448.202528.388280-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <49ED35BF.9010800@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 09:44 PM, Viktor Pavlenko wrote: > I wrote a program at work because I couldn't find a good open source > solution. Obviously, it is now a property of my employer. Initial > request to my boss to make it available under GPL didn't meet > understanding. So I shut up. > > But what if I re-wrote it in a completely different language, > preserving the functionality and user interface (command line) as is > and released under GPL, would it still be a copyright violation? I don't know about copyright, but I assume you're under an NDA so it would be a breach of your contract (eg. your company owns the "intellectual property", not you). If you go as far as changing the language implementation then I'd say you're probably covered for copyright because you can prove that it is a complete re-construction... but I would certainly prepare to be fired for it. I don't even think you need to use the different language. People make GPL versions of proprietary programs all the time and AFAIK there's never any trouble (unless you infringe on a patent which you don't own)... so I'd say your only worry is an NDA, which if written like most would likely prevent you from telling *anybody* about it, not just yourself. Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:06:47 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:06:47 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: <20090420225049.2bfe19ea.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> <20090420225049.2bfe19ea.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <18925.14407.296522.592592@hetman.ua> >>>>> "tl" == ted leslie writes: tl> if you are a contractor, you may have more ownership to it tl> then you think (which is none if you were not). No, I'm a full time. tl> rewriting a program in a different language, essentially a tl> token/form replacement, maybe a bit more, isn't going to cut tl> it, a program is "how it does stuff", not what its written in. That's what I was afraid of. tl> you wouldn't violate copyright necessarily, and that I don't tl> think is the point, you would violate your employment tl> agreement with your employer, which could see you dismissed tl> with cause, and you would have no way to fight it, and also tl> open to $$ damages. tl> You would have to make full effort to rewrite the program from tl> design up. You may even have stuff in your employment tl> contract that would prevent you from even doing this tl> (i.e. would you be in competition, or have harmed your tl> employers revenue?). tl> You just have to abide by the terms of your emp. contract tl> plain and simple. (and the general rules regarding property tl> produced for an employer). If you like your job... i suggest tl> you fully disclose your intentions to your boss ... (if you tl> want to carry forward with it). tl> On the positive side, if what you did was straight forward tl> engineering, and not something your employer cares about tl> existing (With respect to competition), you can build it tl> again, this time faster, because of what you've learned, and tl> make it even better, and that would be ok, but then you still tl> might be pissing of your employer :( I appreciate your input, surely I have to talk to my employer again, the application is not mission critical, rather general purpose. If I succeed and publish it, I'll post a link here. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:19:21 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:19:21 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240295096.3976.888.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenet work> Message-ID: <49ED3B39.4060603@telly.org> I. Khider wrote: > Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea > of pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, > equally horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. You are not alone in the assessment that Linux (and open source in general) is naturally superior in its development model, its benefits to users, its freedoms and its flexibility. However, that is very different from insisting that society *require* it as a moral issue or to demand HP to sell Linux pre-loads that the marketplace won't buy. It's totally possible that the savings HP achieves through the sheer volume of making all systems the same way (ie, with Windows) outweighs the cost penalty of paying for that Windows. If you could get a no-OS system that would cost more that the Windows system because it could not be produced in enough volume, would that be better? Remember, you're still ahead of the game. It's easier to install Linux on a Windows pre-load than to install Windows on a Linux pre-load. The Windows MBR loader can't boot multiple OSs -- grub and LILO exist to do exactly that. Your moral outrage about giving money to Microsoft is noted -- and not without merit. However, you're in danger when you let that sentiment block your normal consumer instincts. > The fact that students have to resort to piracy to get software they > need from Mac or Windows to develop their education and ideas is > pretty toxic in my books. That's not a Linux issue, and it's also not all-or-nothing. The students are perfectly welcome to use OpenOffice and Mozilla products and accomplish the vast majority of what they need with open source applications -- even on a Windows platform. Such a hybrid configuration has in fact been a successful way to get end-users comfortable with the quality of open source before taking the plunge on their OS platform. That the students pirate proprietary software, when freely available alternatives exist, is indeed toxic -- and easily avoidable. > This list states By the way, there are only a handful of speakers in this thread. "This list" remains generally silent. > I am taking an extreme pro-Linux stance when I am say we need 'choice' > is unfair--I am looking for balance. No you're not. You're looking to force companies to make a product for you that they have determined to be not in their interest to sell. Open source is a latecomer to this game, relatively speaking. It's only been suitable for mainstream desktop consumption in the last few years and there are many who say we still aren't there yet. The gains are slow but are unmistakably there. You gain nothing but resentment in trying to get the courts or the law to speed up a societal process that is naturally slow. > I say, resort to civil means if one has to--to re-introduce balance > and harmony. That opensource options are not being pursued because > companies have successfuly marginalized them out of existence thanks > to consumer complacency--especially in Canada. Sorry, but that's BS. HP has not marginalized Linux. The marketplace has, and HP is just responding. Where the market wants Linux -- on netbooks and servers -- HP gladly responds. > We live in a society where proprietary software is the default and to > implement opensource/free software has to be an uphill battle. Why not > default to free and then pick proprietary if we want it? Why not start a company and offer this alternative? If it's as great as you say you should be surpassing HP quickly. > I will tell you why I am not extreme, easily. look around you, Windows > and Mac/OS is the default--we are already in an extreme position. I am unable to make the connection between "Windows and Mac/OS is the default" and "we are already in an extreme position". If you have a point to make you're not doing it very well. > I am saying let us have balance and choice. How is that extreme? think > about it. Companies dictate our tools, culture, and development Again, BS. You have the choice of what to buy or use, the language you speak, the culture you practice, and your models of development. If the marketplace doesn't satisfy your needs, and there are others who share your needs, ENTER THE MARKET YOURSELF with alternatives. If there are enough others that share your needs you will easily succeed and indeed attract more players to compete with you offering the same. > So I am the one whining here? There is a difference between making a > statement and whining, and I am making a clear statement--these > companies need to be taken to task. I support these companies, we all > do--because we nned them and vice versa. Your best way to take them to task is to NOT BUY THEIR PRODUCT. If enough people follow suit they will fail as a company. (Just ask Chrysler...) I fail to see how you would buy the products of a company whose policies you hate so much, when alternatives and other vendors exist. > If I run a business and my clients ask a small reasonable change to > make their lives easier (at almost no cost to me) you bet I will give > it to them! Do unto others as you would have done yourself. The change you propose is not "almost no cost" to HP, and you know it. > if I can't change the people around me, then I change the people > around me. I guess this is as good a summary of the logic as I can think of... - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:28:41 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:28:41 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240284965.3976.581.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49ED3D69.8080808@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 11:36 PM, I. Khider wrote: > I thought this was the Linux users group! Surely my views are not > counterintuitive here. Ib, (I hope it's OK that I CC you) Try not to take this discussion personally. We're just pointing out that you don't have a right to feel the way you do. What we're giving you is factual .. it's not subjective. The advice we're giving you is sincere and is what's best for you. Writing back to the list saying "hey guys, yeah thanks for the advice, I still think you're all wrong" was a bad move on your part, and now you're storming off because you're angry that we didn't take well to that. Bottom line: this is a Linux user group, not a Linux advocacy group. Sure, there are probably a few (maybe a lot) of advocates among us. Point is, we all -- presumably! -- like to use Linux and enjoy discussions about it and related topics. Don't assume more than that. Not all of us would be willing to protest on parliament hill if Harper spoke negatively of the GPL or publicly ridiculed our favorite OS. By the sounds of it you expect us to be equally as valiant as you are in your beliefs. We're not activists. Personally I think extremists give Linux a bad rep. I have a technical interest in Linux and I think.. in time.. a technically superior FLOSS OS is a good thing to have. There are right and wrong ways to go about what you intend to do.. and right now you're being motivated by your emotions. Linux is not "mainstream" (yet?), far from it. It's even debatable as to whether that would be a good or bad thing, but that's another discussion entirely. It's great that you're passionate about your beliefs, but it seems like, at the moment, you're interested more in personal gain than the success of Linux. I urge you to take our advice and write a letter. One letter to HP won't make a difference, but HP has probably already received hundreds of them. You would set an example for others, and in time thousands of letters will form into something beautiful like a consumer demand. This is the best we can do, and in your case right now the only thing you can do. Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:41:19 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:41:19 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: <49ED35BF.9010800-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> <49ED35BF.9010800@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <18925.16479.979179.287866@hetman.ua> >>>>> "ML" == Marc Lanctot writes: ML> I don't know about copyright, but I assume you're under an NDA ML> so it would be a breach of your contract (eg. your company ML> owns the "intellectual property", not you). ML> If you go as far as changing the language implementation then ML> I'd say you're probably covered for copyright because you can ML> prove that it is a complete re-construction... but I would ML> certainly prepare to be fired for it. I don't even think you ML> need to use the different language. People make GPL versions ML> of proprietary programs all the time and AFAIK there's never ML> any trouble (unless you infringe on a patent which you don't ML> own)... so I'd say your only worry is an NDA, which if written ML> like most would likely prevent you from telling *anybody* ML> about it, not just yourself. Thanks Marc. No intention to play tricky games here, just to make something that's missing out there freely available. I'll talk to them again. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:46:47 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:46:47 -0400 Subject: [OT?] Copyright infringement, Scrabulous, and the GPL In-Reply-To: References: <49ECE808.4060307@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49ED41A7.60109@ualberta.ca> On 20/04/09 06:02 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > >> I'm interested in games, board games in particular, and the case with >> Scrabulous. Scrabulous got nailed with lawsuits because they referred >> to Scrabble and used a trademarked name attached to their product; >> they have now renamed their service to Lexulous, but it's still the >> exact same game as > > Hi Marc. IANAL. I'm a long time boardgame player[1]. My understanding > from discussions around the boardgaming community is that games > themselves _cannot_ be copyrighted but the rules and artwork can. As a > result it is possible to produce a "work alike" game as long as it > doesn't look like the original or share the same words in the rules. > > Again, IANAL but this is a topic that has been discussed in boardgaming > circles. That is good news, even if I can't your word as legal fact. I figured this would be the case because Lexulous is still around and Richard's PBEM server has never had any issues as far as I know. >> So my question is this: is it legal to implement a (say GPL'd) online >> game which allows users to play a game whose original rules etc. are >> under > > Quite a number of board games can be played online and often with the > original name and artwork. In these cases I presume permission was > granted or they are flying underneath the radar. > > [1] These days I'm mostly into German Games. Favourite games include > Mideast Peace, Medici, & Merchant of Venus. Do you have a username on BSW? Mine is 'lanctot'. Let me know if you ever want to play any games.. I'm always up for it. I was hoping to keep this somewhat under the hood but after this email I just won't be able to. I'm developing an open gaming site with a friend. I've described it on this list before. Think of a GPL / Web 2.0 version of Yahoo Games or a real-time version of Richard's PBEM server, where anybody is free to write games and have them hosted by us (like Kongregate but exclusively for multi-player games). Work is under way.. we've got a good chunk of the base code already done. We're just a few months away from an alpha version with about 5 working games... Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 03:56:37 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever Message-ID: <129617.95812.qm@web111206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Ib, I think you are getting too personal about this, no one is attacking you as person or your idea and passion about fair play! Most people are simply asking you to vote with your pocket book, but you are the one who is refusing to make this "choice". I think we all agree with you that it is not right for MS or HP to not offer your a rebate. This thread has run out of ideas or has none to offer you in terms of what you need to do next. Just take it to mean that! Don't blow this up into something it is not. People are generally good and want to help and make a difference, don't get things twisted! Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer? 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 12:19:36 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:19:36 -0400 Subject: scary things at CRTC In-Reply-To: <20090420174941.GW3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408140552.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49DCBE58.5080005@alteeve.com> <20090408152138.GS3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <20090420174941.GW3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49EDB9D8.7060500@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:49:27AM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > >> The idea that science is always pure and somehow naturally avoids >> scientific dogma is itself a form of dogma. >> > > The failure of some scientists does not imply a failure of science. > Clearly some scientists were making discoveries and pointing out the > failures in the existing theories. > > Of course, skepticism is essential for science, but some take it too far. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 17:40:55 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <49ED1FBD.10100-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081001y1eaf8a10se2ce94fd4f983aff@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ED1FBD.10100@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Many people on this list take a fairly simple "free market" view. Me too. The free market is impaired by monopolies. MS Windows has been found to be a Monopoly. So there are some legal constraints on Microsoft's behaviour (but not in Canada; pity). HP has not been found to be a monopoly. In the notebook world, it clearly is not. So there is no anti-monopoly constraint on HP, nor should there be. But let's look again at the MS side of this. | From: CLIFFORD ILKAY | As long as Microsoft isn't penalizing manufacturers that sell | "naked" systems or systems loaded with another operating system, there | is nothing wrong with a manufacturer deciding that it will offer Windows | exclusively, or not. For anti-trust reasons, the US Justice Department, plus some US States, put some constraints on Microsoft. More than once. Unfortunately, they put pathetically weak ones in (there was a change of administration). One thing that they allow is that Microsoft can bribe vendors to behave the way Microsoft wants. The bribe takes the form of advertising money. Most times that you see Microsoft mentioned in a computer ad Microsoft is paying the computer company. And they pay more for good behaviour. I don't know what they encourage: those agreements are secret, another thing that should not be allowed of a monopolist. Just because the US government is captured by Microsoft is no reason that the Canadian government needs be passive. I have personally been party to a formal complaint to the Canadian government about this some years ago. Nothing has happened as far as I know (proceedings are confidential -- not even the complainant gets to know what is happening). I think that HP's behaviour is most likely shaped by Microsoft inducements that are OKed by the US Justice department. Common sense says that these inducements should have been forbidden. | From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 20 22:42:43 2009 | Having windows pre-installed on a machine sucks. That noted, the | question is where to go from here? The best real world option in my | books would be to: | | - Buy the hardware you want. | - Refuse to accept the included MS Windows licence | - Go after the hardware vendor, take them to small claims court if required. On the face of it, this looks to be possible. It is what I. Khider initially asked for, I think. For some reason that I have not understood, this approach usually doesn't work even though the legal documents seem to say it is possible. Theory: nobody reads those shrink-wrapped "agreements", not even the publisher of them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 17:50:32 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: <18925.9448.202528.388280-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> Message-ID: | From: Viktor Pavlenko | I wrote a program at work because I couldn't find a good open source | solution. Obviously, it is now a property of my employer. Initial | request to my boss to make it available under GPL didn't meet | understanding. So I shut up. | | But what if I re-wrote it in a completely different language, | preserving the functionality and user interface (command line) as is | and released under GPL, would it still be a copyright violation? Legal questions are tricky. Especially in this area. It is dangerous to beleive what geeks like us might tell you. Example surprising thing: I was told by a lawyer that I hired that if you are on salary in Canada, under common law (i.e. without even having in a written contract) that your employer owns all your work in the field for which you are hired. No moonlighting in that field! In my case, a program that I was planning on writing in my spare time would be deemed to be my employers (and they were uninterested in having me write it, for them, on their time). And "field" is construed broadly (I don't know the proper term any more). Note: this was 20 years ago and some details have faded from my memory or have mutated. I Am Not A Lawyer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 17:56:40 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever Message-ID: <259823.89074.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I believe the originator of this thread has left the group, my poor comments about getting "us/things twisted" was taken personally by Ib to mean I was calling him twisted as well as his idea. He seems to think this group is against all his ideas he has put forward? I don't know the history of the group but anyways if there is anyone here who can help IB with his cause I would suggest sending him a personal *supportive* message. Personally I didn't see any personal attack on Ib, but buy poor wording just helped him project what he's feeling. Cheers, Rajinder --- On Tue, 4/21/09, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > From: D. Hugh Redelmeier > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: No O/S as a right more than ever > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 1:40 PM > Many people on this list take a > fairly simple "free market" view.? Me > too. > > The free market is impaired by monopolies.? MS Windows > has been found > to be a Monopoly.? So there are some legal constraints > on Microsoft's > behaviour (but not in Canada; pity). > > HP has not been found to be a monopoly.? In the > notebook world, it > clearly is not.? So there is no anti-monopoly > constraint on HP, nor > should there be. > > But let's look again at the MS side of this. > > | From: CLIFFORD ILKAY > > | As long as Microsoft isn't penalizing manufacturers that > sell > | "naked" systems or systems loaded with another operating > system, there > | is nothing wrong with a manufacturer deciding that it > will offer Windows > | exclusively, or not. > > For anti-trust reasons, the US Justice Department, plus > some US > States, put some constraints on Microsoft.? More than > once. > Unfortunately, they put pathetically weak ones in (there > was a change > of administration). > > One thing that they allow is that Microsoft can bribe > vendors to > behave the way Microsoft wants.? The bribe takes the > form of advertising money. > Most times that you see Microsoft mentioned in a computer > ad Microsoft is > paying the computer company.? And they pay more for > good behaviour. > I don't know what they encourage: those agreements are > secret, another > thing that should not be allowed of a monopolist. > > Just because the US government is captured by Microsoft is > no reason > that the Canadian government needs be passive.? I have > personally been > party to a formal complaint to the Canadian government > about this some > years ago.? Nothing has happened as far as I know > (proceedings are > confidential -- not even the complainant gets to know what > is > happening). > > I think that HP's behaviour is most likely shaped by > Microsoft > inducements that are OKed by the US Justice > department.? Common sense > says that these inducements should have been forbidden. > > > | From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Mon Apr 20 22:42:43 2009 > > | Having windows pre-installed on a machine sucks. That > noted, the > | question is where to go from here? The best real world > option in my > | books would be to: > | > | - Buy the hardware you want. > | - Refuse to accept the included MS Windows licence > | - Go after the hardware vendor, take them to small claims > court if required. > > On the face of it, this looks to be possible.? It is > what I. Khider > initially asked for, I think. > > For some reason that I have not understood, this approach > usually > doesn't work even though the legal documents seem to say it > is > possible. > > Theory: nobody reads those shrink-wrapped "agreements", not > even the > publisher of them. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 18:14:01 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:14:01 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <259823.89074.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <259823.89074.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49EE0CE9.4010608@ualberta.ca> On 21/04/09 01:56 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > I believe the originator of this thread has left the group, my poor comments about getting "us/things twisted" was taken personally by Ib to mean I was calling him twisted as well as his idea. > > He seems to think this group is against all his ideas he has put forward? I don't know the history of the group but anyways if there is anyone here who can help IB with his cause I would suggest sending him a personal *supportive* message. > > Personally I didn't see any personal attack on Ib, but buy poor wording just helped him project what he's feeling. > Raj: you have to cut your long lines! Or I'll personally attack you!! Publicly on this list :-p My first email response to his subject was a bit harsh.. so I contacted him personally to apologize, and sent him another response after his last post. He replied asking for his right to be left alone. He does not want us to follow up.. he feels harassed. I think he reacted a bit sensitively. You can't take other people's opinions personally when you post something radical like that on a mailing list. And he just asked for it when he re-posted his emotional response. He seemed like a nice guy.. it would be a shame to not see him at the meetings anymore, but I suggest if you want to contact him for support, give it a few days before you do. Marc -- I cannot prove that electrons exist, but I believe fervently in their existence. And if you don't believe in them, I have a high-voltage cattle prod I'm willing to apply as an argument on their behalf. -- Seth Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 18:33:10 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever Message-ID: <473827.92131.qm@web111210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Marc LOL, I will remember to break my lines short ;) Good suggestion about contacting Ib after a few days. Cheers, Rajinder __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer? 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 18:38:07 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:38:07 -0400 Subject: Another copyright question In-Reply-To: References: <18925.9448.202528.388280@hetman.ua> Message-ID: <20090421143807.19a8d76b.tleslie@tcn.net> ahhhhh , no. (iv) Moonlighting: Depending on the nature of the job, results may be the only measure of success (in a sales capacity, for example) rather than time spent working. However, the job may well require time to be devoted outside of regular working hours, and if there is an expectation for extra commitment, it may be appropriate to prohibit part- time employment in some other employment relationship as part of the duty to commit to full time employment in the new position. Such restrictive covenants are rigorously examined by the courts as a result of the employee's inequality of bargaining power vis a vis his or her employer. In drafting such clauses, the Employer must be careful to strike a balance between the two primary competing considerations: the right of every individual to earn a livelihood and pursue opportunities in an effort to advance their career versus, the right of employers to protect their legitimate business interests and not to be harmed by the misuses of its proprietary or confidential information. If an Employer wishes to impose a restrictive covenant such as that regarding moonlighting which is enforceable, that covenant must: (1) protect a legitimate propriety interest such as a trade secret or trade connection; (2) the restraint must be reasonable (the use by an employee of general skill and knowledge cannot be restrained); (3) not be used to solely preserve the employer's competitive advantage (covenant's whose object is solely to prevent competition are void). There is ample support in the case authorities to suggest that a restriction on an employee's right to alternative employment is reasonable and within the employer's right to establish where (1) alternative employment would inhibit/interfere with productions; (2) the employee has access to particular information which if imparted to a competitor would harm or damage the employers business; and (3) there exists a form of employer/employee fidelity. http://www.lbwlawyers.com/publications/writtenemploymentcontract.php (canadian labour lawyers), in other words, seems to me if you program in your own time (even commercially), and its not stepping on any of the above items, you are well and in the clear. in other words, it appears to be the opposite of what you wrote below (granted it might have changed in 20 years). -tl On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:50:32 -0400 (EDT) "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > | From: Viktor Pavlenko > > | I wrote a program at work because I couldn't find a good open source > | solution. Obviously, it is now a property of my employer. Initial > | request to my boss to make it available under GPL didn't meet > | understanding. So I shut up. > | > | But what if I re-wrote it in a completely different language, > | preserving the functionality and user interface (command line) as is > | and released under GPL, would it still be a copyright violation? > > Legal questions are tricky. Especially in this area. It is dangerous > to beleive what geeks like us might tell you. > > Example surprising thing: > > I was told by a lawyer that I hired that if you are on salary in > Canada, under common law (i.e. without even having in a written > contract) that your employer owns all your work in the field for which > you are hired. No moonlighting in that field! In my case, a program > that I was planning on writing in my spare time would be deemed to be > my employers (and they were uninterested in having me write it, for > them, on their time). And "field" is construed broadly (I don't know > the proper term any more). > > Note: this was 20 years ago and some details have faded from my memory > or have mutated. I Am Not A Lawyer. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 19:49:10 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:49:10 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240286929.3976.649.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <7ac602420904201654h7be07b15y31fa79da2cc7c9e7@mail.gmail.com> <1240286929.3976.649.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090421194910.GC3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:08:49AM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Let me rephrase the question to you and all TLUG members--what would > make me have a case? If it was imposible to buy a computer without windows at all, then you might have a case, but that clearly isn't the case. Just like you can't sue GM for not wanting to sell you a certain model car without an A/C. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 21:55:58 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old hardware in GRA In-Reply-To: <18921.10731.335074.680352-sXTYT7u69DT3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <18921.10731.335074.680352@hetman.ua> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Viktor Pavlenko wrote: > Trying to revive my first linux box (with Plan9 in mind ;)) Often a virtual box running on top of modern hardware will be much faster than an older box, and without consuming extra electricity or money. I've run Plan9 under VMware and VirtualBox and they've run well. Inferno doesn't even need virtualisation to run ;) Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 21:59:36 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Website borked? Message-ID: Hi all. Problem accessing the MySQL server? Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 23:29:07 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:29:07 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090421232907.GD3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:37:55PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > No, I think it's just that you're misunderstanding what people are saying. > > I agree with you that the Windows monopoly is absurd. I dare say that > most people on here agree with that. Does that mean that HP should be > legally required to fight the monopoly? I don't know about that. > > The thing is, you _do_ have a choice. You may not like the choice you > have, but you do have one. You can very easily find another vendor who > will sell you a laptop without Windows installed. Since HP is > therefore _not_ forcing you to buy their laptop with Windows > installed, there is really no case to be made against them. Is it a > stupid business decision? I don't know, HP seems to be doing alright. > Should you write them a long and detailed letter about why their > decision is wrong? Sure. Why not. > > I still don't understand what the big deal is about HP. I can > guarantee you there are other vendors who can supply you with a > superior laptop at a comparable price. Hell, Lennart can probably tell > you off the top of his head where you can buy one right now ;) If it has to not come with windows, then no I can't. I am more of a desktop/server guy. Now for a nice laptop that runs linux well, well I just bought one about two hours ago. So I just got (well in about 2 weeks I suppose I will): ThinkPad SL500 Nvidia GeForce G105M 256MB video 1GB ram (much cheaper to buy 2x2GB from canadacomputers afterwards) Core2Duo P8600 (2.4GHz 25W with VT-d) 15.4" WSXGA+ (1680x1050) display 250GB 5400rpm disk DVD writer UPEX fingerprint scanner UVC webcam intel 5100 abgn wireless gigabit ethernet 6 cell battery (9 cell weighs more and costs an extra $50). vga and hdmi output firewire SD card reader modem touchpad and ibm stick thingy with 3 buttons Vista home basic (lowest option they have, and they sure don't pay much for that) A quick search has determined that everything (including wifi, SD card reader, webcam, fingerprint scanner, and even the hotkeys) work almost out of the box with modern ubuntu or debian. All you need is an application for the hotkeys, everything else just works (and on debian you have to download the firmware file for the intel 5100 wifi, but the driver is there already). The modem is unknown, but so what. Normal price $1169, on sale for $1093, and then they have a 10% of coupon called BIGCAPsomething, or if you read redflagdeals, you find another coupon for 15% off called CAPSL500RFD, so I used that. Total cost $930 + tax and free shipping. Coupon is good for the first 250 orders, or until thursday sometime. My first new computer for myself ever. Whee! -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 23:44:56 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:44:56 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240295096.3976.888.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090421234456.GE3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 02:24:56AM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea of > pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, equally > horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. The fact that > students have to resort to piracy to get software they need from Mac or > Windows to develop their education and ideas is pretty toxic in my > books. That an artist, 2/3d designer has to pirate software to develop > their ideas--the list goes on. This list states I am taking an extreme > pro-Linux stance when I am say we need 'choice' is unfair--I am looking > for balance. I say, resort to civil means if one has to--to re-introduce > balance and harmony. That opensource options are not being pursued > because companies have successfuly marginalized them out of existence > thanks to consumer complacency--especially in Canada. At no point did I require windows to get my education. Certainly at university it was far better for me to have access to linux, since it was much closer to the solaris, ultrix and aix systems the university used. It would be preferable that you could buy any hardware you wanted with any OS you wanted. It would be great if windows was free and microsoft made their money some other way. > We live in a society where proprietary software is the default and to > implement opensource/free software has to be an uphill battle. Why not > default to free and then pick proprietary if we want it? Because people like what they are used to. If they can't play their games and run their word on their new compouter out of the box, then they would have to learn something new, and most people (strange at it may seem to us) don't like learning new things. 99% of computer users are not capable of installing an OS on their computer, whether it is linx, windows, solaris or BSD. They just have no clue. So preloading what 99% of users want anyhow is just a lot simpler. Now I remember when computers all came with DOS, and then they started coming with dos and windows 3.1, and then they came with windows 95, etc. > I will tell you why I am not extreme, easily. look around you, Windows > and Mac/OS is the default--we are already in an extreme position. I am > saying let us have balance and choice. How is that extreme? think about > it. Companies dictate our tools, culture, and development--I am saying > let the consumer have a say because we are part of the same ecosystem as > the companies. We have the right to ask them to change the policy > because they are as much a part of society as we are. We owe it to each > other. 5 years ago, no one would have even considered mentioning Mac OS, now it is actually becoming a significant part of the market. That's rather impresive. > So I am the one whining here? There is a difference between making a > statement and whining, and I am making a clear statement--these > companies need to be taken to task. I support these companies, we all > do--because we nned them and vice versa. If I run a business and my > clients ask a small reasonable change to make their lives easier (at > almost no cost to me) you bet I will give it to them! Do unto others as > you would have done yourself. But that's where you are wrong. You are imposing a significant cost on HP by not wanting the standard software load. If 99% of customers (and I am probably underestimating that) want windows, then it makes sense to put it on all of them if it makes the production cheaper to run. The overall savings makes the machines cheaper by enough that the end user isn't really even paying anything extra for windows, they just get what they want. If it was only 70% that wanted windows, then it would probably make sense on at least some models to offer it with whatever the other 30% wanted. I honestly don't care if the company includes some version of windows, as long as I get the hardware I want, and the hardware is all supported by linux. I know how to install an OS, and I sure know how to delete windows. Heck maybe I will leave a small partition for vista on my new laptop and try out a few games, or perhaps it will just be a waste of disk space I never use. Its not like I actually paid extra for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 21 23:53:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:53:53 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: References: <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090421235352.GF3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:42:20PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Having windows pre-installed on a machine sucks. That noted, the > question is where to go from here? The best real world option in my > books would be to: > > - Buy the hardware you want. > - Refuse to accept the included MS Windows licence > - Go after the hardware vendor, take them to small claims court if required. > > Henry Ford once noted of the Model T automobile "Any customer can have > a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.". Point > was, that for the first year of production the Model T was offered in > 6 colours, but then to cut down on costs Ford reduced the colour > options down to just black. Various PC vendors selling with just one > OS is a pain, but unlike the days of Henry Ford, there is the licence > refusal option and legal means that you can use to recover $ from the > vendor... So say it is vista home basic. I can buy the OEM version at "local computer store" (with appropriate hardware purchase) for probably $95. That includes media and such, markup by the store, transportation, etc. Looking at the prices lenovo charges to go between different windows versions, I would say they are paying less than half that amount when they buy it, so lets say $49 in their case. I have heard windows xp home for netbooks apparently going as low as $15 these days for OEMs. Lenovo happens to preload some mcafee software as well (so says the fine print at least), and quite likely they get some kickback for that, so maybe $10 for that. There might be a few others things too. If they didn't load windows, then they couldn't load the other software either, so you loose that subsidy. Add in some cost for processing your refund request, them having to go through the effort of cancleing the license with microsoft, etc, and well quite honestly, if you get $20 I would be impressed. I happen to value my time, and would actually rather have a copy of vista than bother trying to get the refund. And that's assuming the refund was a common streamlined process, which it seems it certainly isn't so far. It probably ought to be. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 00:03:10 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever Message-ID: <193452.34195.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Sweet, maybe you can show it off at the next TLUG meeting ;) Rajinder --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > From: Lennart Sorensen > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: No O/S as a right more than ever > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 7:29 PM > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:37:55PM > -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > > No, I think it's just that you're misunderstanding > what people are saying. > > > > I agree with you that the Windows monopoly is absurd. > I dare say that > > most people on here agree with that. Does that mean > that HP should be > > legally required to fight the monopoly? I don't know > about that. > > > > The thing is, you _do_ have a choice. You may not like > the choice you > > have, but you do have one. You can very easily find > another vendor who > > will sell you a laptop without Windows installed. > Since HP is > > therefore _not_ forcing you to buy their laptop with > Windows > > installed, there is really no case to be made against > them. Is it a > > stupid business decision? I don't know, HP seems to be > doing alright. > > Should you write them a long and detailed letter about > why their > > decision is wrong? Sure. Why not. > > > > I still don't understand what the big deal is about > HP. I can > > guarantee you there are other vendors who can supply > you with a > > superior laptop at a comparable price. Hell, Lennart > can probably tell > > you off the top of his head where you can buy one > right now ;) > > If it has to not come with windows, then no I can't.? > I am more of a > desktop/server guy. > > Now for a nice laptop that runs linux well, well I just > bought one about > two hours ago. > > So I just got (well in about 2 weeks I suppose I will): > > ThinkPad SL500 > Nvidia GeForce G105M 256MB video > 1GB ram (much cheaper to buy 2x2GB from canadacomputers > afterwards) > Core2Duo P8600 (2.4GHz 25W with VT-d) > 15.4" WSXGA+ (1680x1050) display > 250GB 5400rpm disk > DVD writer > UPEX fingerprint scanner > UVC webcam > intel 5100 abgn wireless > gigabit ethernet > 6 cell battery (9 cell weighs more and costs an extra > $50). > vga and hdmi output > firewire > SD card reader > modem > touchpad and ibm stick thingy with 3 buttons > Vista home basic (lowest option they have, and they sure > don't pay much for that) > > A quick search has determined that everything (including > wifi, SD card > reader, webcam, fingerprint scanner, and even the hotkeys) > work almost out > of the box with modern ubuntu or debian.? All you need > is an application > for the hotkeys, everything else just works (and on debian > you have to > download the firmware file for the intel 5100 wifi, but the > driver is > there already).? The modem is unknown, but so what. > > Normal price $1169, on sale for $1093, and then they have a > 10% of coupon > called BIGCAPsomething, or if you read redflagdeals, you > find another > coupon for 15% off called CAPSL500RFD, so I used > that.? Total cost $930 + > tax and free shipping.? Coupon is good for the first > 250 orders, or > until thursday sometime. > > My first new computer for myself ever.? Whee! > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer? 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 00:05:29 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:05:29 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <1240295096.3976.888.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 02:24:56AM -0400, I. Khider wrote: > Well looks like I am alone in the room here in thinking that the idea of > pre-installing machines with Windows (or Mac for that matter, equally > horrid) as a default option in our society is wrong. The fact that > students have to resort to piracy to get software they need from Mac or > Windows to develop their education and ideas is pretty toxic in my > books. That an artist, 2/3d designer has to pirate software to develop > their ideas--the list goes on. This list states I am taking an extreme > pro-Linux stance when I am say we need 'choice' is unfair--I am looking > for balance. I say, resort to civil means if one has to--to re-introduce > balance and harmony. That opensource options are not being pursued > because companies have successfuly marginalized them out of existence > thanks to consumer complacency--especially in Canada. No actually you are not taking an extreme pro-linux stance. You are taking an extreme anti-proprietary software stance. Those two are not the same thing, contrary to what some fanatics would like you to think. I like linux and company because they are better at what I want to do and I prefer the philosophy as well. Even if windows was to become free and open source in every way, I would still prefer linux on my system. I realize that some people need certaion software which simply does not exist in the open source world and almost certainly never will, and I don't mind that. I happen to very much appreciate some of what microsoft has done. They managed to get ibm to agree to let microsoft keep all the rights to MS-DOS/PC-DOS and be allowed to sell it to anyone they wanted. This meant companies like compaq that reverse engineered the IBM PC BIOS could start making 100% compatible but much cheaper computers and started the whole open comodity computer market. It is quite likely that without the backing of someone like IBM, no platform would have become so dominant, and without microsoft it would not have become open and a commodity since either IBM would have owned it all and you would be paying IBM prices for your computer and getting exactly what they thought a computer should be. We only get to have amazingly fast computers at amazingly low prices, because they have become a generic commodity, largely due to microsoft. Perhaps life was more interesting when we had the apple II, atari XL, atari ST, amiga, amstrad, archimedes, (did anyone not name things starting with a back then?), but it sure cost a lot more for a lot lot less. I remember 20 years ago wishing I could get one of those 20MB harddisks that cost $4000 for my amiga. Yeah right. I just ordered a complete laptop with 10000 times the disk space, for 1/4 the price of that 20MB disk. Thanks for changing the computer world microsoft, too bad your software is only good enough and not great. Fortunately good enough was enough to get us to this point. Would linux have existed if Linus hadn't been able to buy a generic 386 (I think his might even have been an AMD) to write Linux on? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 00:09:07 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:09:07 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <193452.34195.qm-ocD5SZSfVaz6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <193452.34195.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090422000906.GH3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 05:03:10PM -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Sweet, maybe you can show it off at the next TLUG meeting ;) If I ever went. So far I never have. Tuesdays have always been bad for me. Oh well. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 00:18:47 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <20090422000529.GG3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: ... > Perhaps life was more interesting when we had the apple II, atari XL, > atari ST, amiga, amstrad, archimedes, (did anyone not name things starting > with a back then?), but it sure cost a lot more for a lot lot less. > I remember 20 years ago wishing I could get one of those 20MB harddisks > that cost $4000 for my amiga. 20 years ago I bought an Amiga 2000 with 40MB HD and 8088 bridgeboard and colour monitor for less than $2,500. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 00:21:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:21:40 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: References: <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090422002139.GI3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 08:18:47PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > ... >> Perhaps life was more interesting when we had the apple II, atari XL, >> atari ST, amiga, amstrad, archimedes, (did anyone not name things starting >> with a back then?), but it sure cost a lot more for a lot lot less. >> I remember 20 years ago wishing I could get one of those 20MB harddisks >> that cost $4000 for my amiga. > > 20 years ago I bought an Amiga 2000 with 40MB HD and 8088 > bridgeboard and colour monitor for less than $2,500. OK, so it was 1987, I guess that makes it 22 years ago. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 14:30:14 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:30:14 -0400 Subject: Website borked? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16D84DC1-D79E-4304-A844-40A120F3A350@mylesbraithwaite.com> Up now. --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ Please consider the trees before print this email. On 21-Apr-09, at 5:59 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi all. Problem accessing the MySQL server? > > Rob > > -- > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 12:12:32 2009 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:12:32 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? Message-ID: <49EF09B0.3020409@chrisaitken.net> Here is a cut & paste of an email I sent to this list a week ago. It never went through. I stripped off the attachment and am resending it. Is it because the attachment was too big (almost a MB)? I just want to know for future reference. Chris I'd like to change this thread name to 'GiMP vs Photoshop'. I don't know the exact format for the subject line: such and such WAS > so and so or whatever. Anyway, the teacher that's helping me with the poster has a licence that allows him to give copies of Photoshop to other teachers (of which I am one). He made a rough poster for me to look at. I opened it in linux and it opened automatically in GiMP. Of course, that made me wonder if I should edit it with GiMP instead of Photoshop. I mean I don't know either apps so what's the difference? The other reason I'd rather do this in Linux is that my only Windows box is dedicated to recording Music and I've been strongly advised to keep it that way. So, just in the past two days installing Photoshop and trying to edit/create a poster I've had that machine on the Internet more than in the entire year before. I had to go to webmail to get the poster he sent me (as .psd), then grab an image off google, now I need the Bazooka font (from the Internet) which comes as a .zip which means I'll have to download Winzip. This is a recording studio production recording computer - I can't be doing the Microsoft-on-the-Internet-every-two-seconds thing on this box. The machine I use for Internet and everything else is a Linux box. Is GiMP so much harder than Photoshop that I'm going to regret trying to use it instead? Chris P.S. here's the .psd that I can't edit- do I need Bazooka? Is that the only thing stopping me from editing it? phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I found open office Write quite useable for doing our data sheets and a > trifold leaflet for the Royal Astronomical Society. After some work to > get > done what I needed, I then found 'Essential Open Office' on a local > newsstand. It's available from the web at (very long url!): > > http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/essential_web_site_maker/index.php?page=store&cat=taylormade01&ProductsPerPage=20&ProductBySectionListPageIndex=2&ActinicSID=53cd91c26f0842483e265078eca40c7f > > > You need 'issue 2' which is shown on the second of two pages. > > I've attached a copy of a brochure done using OO Writer. It incorporates > screen shots taken from a Windows machine and a photograph that we did. > I've since done documents that used an image from a web site. (I got > permission to use it.) > > I have no experience with scribus, so that might be another option. > > Regards - > Peter > > >> Is there something analogous to MS Publisher in OO? >> >> In case I've posed the wrong question, let me tell you what it is that I >> want to do: >> >> I want to create posters (flyers, coupons, posters with or without >> tear-off phone numbers) for my piano tuning business. >> >> What I /do/ have going for me is a very nice logo that my brother made >> (which he sends me as .jpg, .tif or anything else I might need). That he >> is my brother is germane here in that he won't charge me a penny, so I >> don't like to ask too much. I hope there is no one here that thinks that >> not charging me is precisely why I /should/ use him extensively. ;) >> >> I am seeing that even 12 yr olds are doing in school what I cannot do at >> home: combining pictures, words and photographs in any arrangement on a >> page (including text on top of pictures). My sad attempts in OO Writer >> to make posters have presented me with challenges such as the following: >> >> - I can type under or over my logo.jpg but not beside it. [The 12 yr >> olds tell me they can easily type anything over, under, beside, or on >> any image.] >> - I get images from the Internet but they have 'copyright' (or somesuch) >> stamped across them. [The 12 yr olds tell me they just get images from >> google and easily (legally?) strip the unwanted text from them.] >> >> Here's an example of what I would like to do: >> >> Make a poster with my logo, add '$10 off for new clients' (this text >> anywhere on any angle I like), and add an image of a section of a piano >> keyboard (I don't have such an image). >> >> If you suggest I use GIMP I will probably just bite the bullet and hire >> an artist. I know my limitations - I've seen the set up dialogue for >> GIMP and I am not going there. >> >> I do have a Windows machine but I use it solely for music recording (as >> linux gave me too much grief in that area) - I've been advised to keep >> it that way. So, I gotta do this on linux. >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 16:13:59 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:13:59 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? In-Reply-To: <49EF09B0.3020409-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49EF09B0.3020409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20090422161359.GJ3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 08:12:32AM -0400, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Here is a cut & paste of an email I sent to this list a week ago. It > never went through. I stripped off the attachment and am resending it. > Is it because the attachment was too big (almost a MB)? I just want to > know for future reference. > > Chris > > I'd like to change this thread name to 'GiMP vs Photoshop'. I don't know > the exact format for the subject line: such and such WAS > so and so or > whatever. > > Anyway, the teacher that's helping me with the poster has a licence that > allows him to give copies of Photoshop to other teachers (of which I am > one). He made a rough poster for me to look at. I opened it in linux and > it opened automatically in GiMP. Of course, that made me wonder if I > should edit it with GiMP instead of Photoshop. I mean I don't know > either apps so what's the difference? The other reason I'd rather do > this in Linux is that my only Windows box is dedicated to recording > Music and I've been strongly advised to keep it that way. So, just in > the past two days installing Photoshop and trying to edit/create a > poster I've had that machine on the Internet more than in the entire > year before. I had to go to webmail to get the poster he sent me (as > .psd), then grab an image off google, now I need the Bazooka font (from > the Internet) which comes as a .zip which means I'll have to download > Winzip. This is a recording studio production recording computer - I > can't be doing the Microsoft-on-the-Internet-every-two-seconds thing on > this box. > > The machine I use for Internet and everything else is a Linux box. Is > GiMP so much harder than Photoshop that I'm going to regret trying to > use it instead? > > Chris > > P.S. here's the .psd that I can't edit- do I need Bazooka? Is that the > only thing stopping me from editing it? No idea on why you can't edit that. Maybe the gimp only supports some versions of photoshop's files. Now for making a poster, both the gimp and photoshop might be the wrong tool entirely. They are bitmap editors. Things like publisher and inkscape are vector based, and hence can generate any resolution at the final stage (great for highres priting) without having to work on a giant bitmap the whole time. Just think how big a bitmap you need to a 12x18" poster done at 300dpi. 216 square inches at 300x300 pixels at 24bit (or 48bit if you want to be able to play with contrast and brigthness) works out to. At 48bit colour with 16bit alpha chanel, you are looking at 150MB. And 12x18" and 300dpi is rather small and low for a poster. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 16:18:58 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GiMP vs Photoshop (Re: OO equiv to MS Publisher?) In-Reply-To: <49EF09B0.3020409-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49EF09B0.3020409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > I stripped off the attachment and am resending it. Is it > because the attachment was too big (almost a MB)? I just want > to know for future reference. IMHO it is a bad idea anyway to send a large attachment to a mailing list since you require everybody to accomodate it (use bandwidth to receive it, use mailbox quota, or even download it), where not everybody may want to see it. Better upload the attachment somewhere and sent a link to it. > I'd like to change this thread name to 'GiMP vs Photoshop'. I > don't know the exact format for the subject line: such and > such WAS > so and so or whatever. Just change it, there, I just did. IMHO there is no specific rule on relate to the previous one, so if you hesitant just replace the whole subject with new one since your subject is completely different anyway. > Anyway, the teacher that's helping me with the poster has a > licence that allows him to give copies of Photoshop to other > teachers (of which I am one). Photoshop can only run in Windows or can only run in OS X. > He made a rough poster for me to look at. I opened it in linux > and it opened automatically in GiMP. Of course, that made me > wonder if I should edit it with GiMP instead of Photoshop. I > mean I don't know either apps so what's the difference? AFAIK it is GIMP. GIMP is quite powerful image / raster graphic editor / manipulator. That said there are some high-end Adobe Photoshop feature (notably colour management support) and tools not supported by GIMP as yet, and its interface (menu, toolbars, etc.) is quite different. If your need is modest (e.g. not creating a full page artwork for magazine printing), then GIMP probably good. Additionaly there is GIMPshop that give Photoshop interface to GIMP (unfortunately not updated for awhile). > P.S. here's the .psd that I can't edit- do I need Bazooka? Is > that the only thing stopping me from editing it? I think if you don't have that font, it will just be replaced by other font. Now it is depend on you how faithful the rendering need of your poster. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 16:22:52 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:22:52 -0400 Subject: OO equiv to MS Publisher? In-Reply-To: <49EF09B0.3020409-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <49EF09B0.3020409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <1f13df280904220922h224c209bic75100dbfcbf83eb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/4/22 Mr Chris Aitken : > The machine I use for Internet and everything else is a Linux box. Is GiMP > so much harder than Photoshop that I'm going to regret trying to use it > instead? The GIMP is free, Photoshop is hundreds of dollars. Photoshop advocates will tell you that it's more "user friendly" than the GIMP, but I think this is much more an issue of which application you learned first. I personally learned on the GIMP, and to this day I find it easier to use. I have to use Photoshop at work and it does one or two things better (graphical scripting comes to mind) but other commands are painfully hard to use. If you really want Photoshop but can't afford it (not your case), or you really want to use the GIMP but want it more Photoshop-like, look at gimpshop (http://www.gimpshop.com/). For you, since you seem to have access to a free(-ish) copy of Photoshop, you have two things you should consider: which is easier for you to use - and here, I mean mostly which OS is more convenient - and will using the GIMP make it difficult to exchange files with your PSD-supplying friend. It sounds like you'd be better off doing your work on the Linux computer, and thus the GIMP is probably the better choice. I also consider it a better choice because it's going to remain free and you can share it with your kids and friends, but that's a personal thing. I can't speak to the file format thing having never tried to swap files between GIMP and Photoshop. Not sure about the Bazooka thing: you should be able to install the font (may be a bit of a pain, but should be do-able) but I don't know if that will fix the unable-to-edit problem ... -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 12:13:27 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:13:27 -0400 Subject: In A Nutshell How MS Has behaved Message-ID: <49EF09E7.7020301@golden.net> Nice document that ties up all the claims against them. I knew about most of these but never saw the supporting quotes. http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 11:52:59 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:52:59 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion Message-ID: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> My suggestion for blowing out a PC. Rather than using those expenses and wasteful pressurized cans of air. Buy a power inflater for inflatables. I use one that plugs in. They cost about $25.00 (battery or 12 volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a good idea because the air usually contains moisture. I blow my machines out 2 x per year thus keeping them cooler and not having hardware failures due to over heating. Word of warning take the box outside or have a vacuum handy. Use something to prevent the fans from spinning too much. It never ceases to amaze me what I find inside power supplies, video cards, CPU coolers and case fans. Some might say the dust that you blow out is a pollutant but it will eventually settle to the earth. Happy Earth Day John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 16:47:15 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:47:15 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <49EF051B.2070300-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> Message-ID: <20090422164715.GK3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 07:52:59AM -0400, John Myshrall wrote: > My suggestion for blowing out a PC. Rather than using those expenses and > wasteful pressurized cans of air. Buy a power inflater for inflatables. > I use one that plugs in. They cost about $25.00 (battery or 12 > volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a > good idea because the air usually contains moisture. > > I blow my machines out 2 x per year thus keeping them cooler and not > having hardware failures due to over heating. Well I think I have cleaned my 486 maybe 4 or 5 times in its 15 year life so far. :) > Word of warning take the box outside or have a vacuum handy. Use > something to prevent the fans from spinning too much. It never ceases to > amaze me what I find inside power supplies, video cards, CPU coolers and > case fans. Just don't use the vacuum near the computer. Vacuums tend to create a lot of static charge, and are hence bad news for electronics. > Some might say the dust that you blow out is a pollutant but it will > eventually settle to the earth. I have lungs. I use those to blow out dust from my machine. Provides nice control, and turns off very quickly if something comes loose. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 17:36:25 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:36:25 -0400 Subject: Defeating Bell's 'Traffic Management' Message-ID: <20090422133625.5c1ad73c@teksavvy.com> I had assumed that using this MLPPP was only for people with 2 or more DSL lines, but someone at work tipped me off that he had gotten around it with just one, using the Tomato/MLPPP firmware for his Linksys router. If you're using the WRT54G or GL/GS, this firmware works great and was a breeze to set up. Start here: http://fixppp.org For me it was like this: 1. Reset router to factory. 2. Upload firmware file for my router. 3. Log in using 'admin' for user and pass. 4. Configure router. I like the new interface a lot better, even without the joy of screwing with Bell. :-) One thing I could not find was a good explanation on exactly how this defeats throttling... -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 17:51:27 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:51:27 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <20090422000529.GG3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904081003p759cfd0at98fdde487d072b51@mail.gmail.com> <20090408132408.7b0e4d2b@teksavvy.com> <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49EF591F.70702@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > I happen to very much appreciate some of what microsoft has done. > Here's some more for you to appreciate: http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 18:27:55 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:27:55 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <49EF591F.70702-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49EF591F.70702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090422182755.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 01:51:27PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > I happen to very much appreciate some of what microsoft has done. > > > Here's some more for you to appreciate: > http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf I said "some". There is a lot more I don't appreciate. I was just saying they have done some good, although perhaps only in their own interests. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 18:31:32 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion Message-ID: <602971.45779.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Anyone know what is the ideal air pressure to use if you go with a air compressor vs a air-in-a-can? Also where could I find a relatively cheap (hobby) compressor that also can be used as a vacuum? With my old PC I used qtips to get under the fan between the heat-sink. It was disgusting what came out of there! Dust also tends to cling to surface due to moisture, so you may need to use qtips, compressed air, and vacuum to do a good job. Kind Regards, Rajinder --- On Wed, 4/22/09, John Myshrall wrote: > From: John Myshrall > Subject: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 7:52 AM > My suggestion for blowing out a PC. > Rather than using those expenses and wasteful pressurized > cans of air. Buy a power inflater for inflatables. I use one > that plugs in. They cost about $25.00 (battery or 12 > volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a > compressor is not a good idea because the air usually > contains moisture. > > I blow my machines out 2 x per year thus keeping them > cooler and not having hardware failures due to over > heating. > > Word of warning take the box outside or have a vacuum > handy. Use something to prevent the fans from spinning too > much. It never ceases to amaze me what I find inside power > supplies, video cards, CPU coolers and case fans. > > Some might say the dust that you blow out is a pollutant > but it will eventually settle to the earth. > Happy Earth Day > > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 18:34:17 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion Message-ID: <999875.35245.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> March I know I forgot to cut the line to 40! --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > From: Rajinder Yadav > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion > To: tlug at ss.org > Received: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 2:31 PM > > Anyone know what is the ideal air pressure to use if you go > with a air compressor vs a air-in-a-can? > > Also where could I find a relatively cheap (hobby) > compressor that also can be used as a vacuum? > > With my old PC I used qtips to get under the fan between > the heat-sink. It was disgusting what came out of there! > > Dust also tends to cling to surface due to moisture, so you > may need to use qtips, compressed air, and vacuum to do a > good job. > > Kind Regards, > Rajinder > > --- On Wed, 4/22/09, John Myshrall > wrote: > > > From: John Myshrall > > Subject: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Received: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 7:52 AM > > My suggestion for blowing out a PC. > > Rather than using those expenses and wasteful > pressurized > > cans of air.. Buy a power inflater for inflatables. I > use one > > that plugs in. They cost about $25.00 (battery or 12 > > volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a > > compressor is not a good idea because the air usually > > contains moisture. > > > > I blow my machines out 2 x per year thus keeping them > > cooler and not having hardware failures due to over > > heating. > > > > Word of warning take the box outside or have a vacuum > > handy. Use something to prevent the fans from spinning > too > > much. It never ceases to amaze me what I find inside > power > > supplies, video cards, CPU coolers and case fans. > > > > Some might say the dust that you blow out is a > pollutant > > but it will eventually settle to the earth. > > Happy Earth Day > > > > John > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below > 80 > > columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > ? ? ? > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.? > Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or > register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 18:41:20 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:41:20 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <999875.35245.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <999875.35245.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49EF64D0.30902@ualberta.ca> On 22/04/09 02:34 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > March I know I forgot to cut the line to 40! It's 80, and adding an 'h' to the end of my name to make it a month of the year is a worse offense.. but polluting the list with this (including my own message right now) is probably even worse. So let's keep up the good work :-p Marc -- The greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to understand the exponential function. -- Albert A. Bartlett -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 19:26:03 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In A Nutshell How MS Has behaved In-Reply-To: <49EF09E7.7020301-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <49EF09E7.7020301@golden.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, John Myshrall wrote: > Nice document that ties up all the claims against them. I knew about most of > these but never saw the supporting quotes. > > http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf It's available in text/html on Groklaw: . -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 20:34:37 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <20090422182755.GL3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49ECB48A.8050407@rogers.com> <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49EF591F.70702@rogers.com> <20090422182755.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | > Lennart Sorensen wrote: | > > | > > I happen to very much appreciate some of what microsoft has done. | I said "some". There is a lot more I don't appreciate. I was just saying | they have done some good, although perhaps only in their own interests. The neat thing about the free market, when working well, is that lots of actors do good by doing things in their own interest. Even monopolies do some good things by doing things in their own interest. It is just a lot less likely. My favourite Microsoft "good thing" was to force hardware capacity and capability to grow in a way that made it viable for UNIX. Atari ST, Amiga, and Mac hardware wasn't good enough for UNIX for the first few years. Nor were PCs. (I know, UNIX was ported to the IBM PC-XT, but that a bad platform: no MMU. The AT did have an MMU, but 16-bit was so 1978 to UNIX folks.) Anyway, Microsoft software was bloated and pushed PC hardware to the point where is was quite suitable for UNIX: the 386. For something as dumb as MS DOS + Win3.0! I admit that Linux is bloated too. Another funny monopoly thing that I liked: Intel put a fancy MMU in the 286 without there being real market demand. As a UNIX guy, I thought it was great. The vast majority of actual use of the 286 MMU was to try to get more than 640K accessible to MS DOS. What an underused feature! Even the 386 was dead before MS fielded a mainstream OS that made reasonable use of its MMU (I don't count Xenix). One thing I don't like about MS: most monopolies get fat, stupid, and lazy. Easy pickings for nimble folks below their radar. MS seems to be paranoid enough to be constantly vigilant and aggressive. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 20:38:40 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:38:40 -0400 Subject: No O/S as a right more than ever In-Reply-To: <20090422182755.GL3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1240272349.3976.206.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49ECF2EA.10301@telly.org> <1240284965.3976.581.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1240295096.3976.888.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090422000529.GG3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49EF591F.70702@rogers.com> <20090422182755.GL3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: >> Here's some more for you to appreciate: >> http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf > > I said "some". ?There is a lot more I don't appreciate. ?I was just saying > they have done some good, although perhaps only in their own interests. > Not always at their own interest. May be that was their intent - self interest, but it have ended up benefiting only consumers. Their biggest mistake was to be too greedy. When they organized to push out everybody from the software market, they should have foreseen the possibility of the defeated vendors using scorched earth policy, and that is precisely what happened. Granted, this would not have been possible without Richard Stallman work. However, I do agree Microsoft have really done us a great favour. Think about it for a moment, if all those platforms were still around, IT would be really fragile to date. Millions of incompatible protocol and what not. And without the other vendors being bitter about Microsoft, they would not have been receptive to GPL. That would have meant ease of DRM introduction as most of the code would have been propriety. I am always grateful of grateful when I think about it. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 21:08:02 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion Message-ID: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I really got to work on fixing my typos and typing slower ;) No formatting option on yahoo to limit line, so I will try my best to enter hard lines when i don't forget. Marc, is the no option on your end to wrap/format text? Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Marc Lanctot wrote: > From: Marc Lanctot > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 2:41 PM > On 22/04/09 02:34 PM, Rajinder Yadav > wrote: > > > > March I know I forgot to cut the line to 40! > > It's 80, and adding an 'h' to the end of my name to make it > a month of the year is a worse offense.. but polluting the > list with this (including my own message right now) is > probably even worse. So let's keep up the good work :-p > > Marc > > -- The greatest shortcoming of the human race is the > inability to > understand the exponential function. > ? -- Albert A. Bartlett > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 21:10:28 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:10:28 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <49EF64D0.30902-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <999875.35245.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EF64D0.30902@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49EF87C4.3090208@golden.net> Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 22/04/09 02:34 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >> March I know I forgot to cut the line to 40! > > It's 80, and adding an 'h' to the end of my name to make it a month of > the year is a worse offense.. but polluting the list with this > (including my own message right now) is probably even worse. So let's > keep up the good work :-p > > Marc > Hmmm OK. I know plenty that find it useful March ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 22 21:20:28 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:20:28 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49EF8A1C.5050106@ualberta.ca> On 22/04/09 05:08 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > I really got to work on fixing my typos and typing slower ;) > No formatting option on yahoo to limit line, so I will try > my best to enter hard lines when i don't forget. > > Marc, is the no option on your end to wrap/format text? Thunderbird doesn't wrap the lines when quoting a reply. When I get emails from you they wrap fine when viewing, but when replying it's awkward because each paragraph takes up a line .. there may be an option to fix that one my end; I haven't looked into it. It is mentioned at the bottom of each email on TLUG to please wrap your lines to 80 chars, and has been brought up recently by another TLUG member, and I just mentioned it because I expected it to be easy to fix. I know you're using the classic view. Do you know if the "new version" of Yahoo mail supports it? I seriously doubt it wouldn't. Marc -- The greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to understand the exponential function. -- Albert A. Bartlett -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 01:27:52 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box in a rich GUI environment. Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 01:29:13 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <49EF8A1C.5050106-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EF8A1C.5050106@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1b4pre) | Gecko/20090317 Lightning/1.0pre Shredder/3.0b3pre | MIME-Version: 1.0 | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion | References: <597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> | In-Reply-To: <597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interestingly, Marc, your text shows as wider than 80 columns in my MUA (Alpine -- pure text). But if I ask to see it raw, your lines are appropriately short. I think that the key is format=flowed in the Content-Type header. Not a complaint, just an observation. It looked like you were a hypocrite, so that is why I investigated :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 02:09:59 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:09:59 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <391333.79013.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is > connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want > to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box > in a rich GUI environment. > > Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > > Yes, that's one of the things Linux & Unix have done for years, with X. You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just individual apps, with SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC etc. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 03:16:26 2009 From: vvp-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Viktor Pavlenko) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:16:26 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <391333.79013.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18927.56714.641565.112682@hetman.ua> >>>>> "RY" == Rajinder Yadav writes: RY> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want RY> to do is connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, RY> but I still want to be able to run a local KDE session RY> controlling the remote Linux box in a rich GUI environment. RY> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? VNC will give you something like that but it's not X. With X you run server on your local box and accept connections from remote X applications. The beauty of it is that you can run many remote graphical applications from different machines within single X session on your local box. And you don't overload your remote box with all possible X sessions. On the other hand, for a terminal based session, look at screen, I'm using it all the time. -- Viktor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 03:32:39 2009 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <200904230332.n3N3Wdwv038194@gc0.generalconcepts.com> | Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is | connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want | to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box | in a rich GUI environment. Check out Xvnc(1) - it's an X server that has no actual display or graphics card that is also a VNC server. Handy if your X clients need more bandwidth than you have e.g. if you're not on the same ethernet as the server. Can also be useful if the X clients are not well behaved and expect a different environment than you have on your local display. As others have mentioned, you can run remote X clients on your local display, either by setting DISPLAY and using xauth, or by using an ssh connection and X forwarding. And there's dxpc(1) if you're running X clients across a slower link. This whole possible separation of X client and server has been in X right from the beginning, around 1984 or so. Pity that Microsoft Windows ignored everything else in the world and built a ludicrously restrictive environment. Hope that helps! John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 13:07:15 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <656085.69686.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> All thanks for the feedback, will need to read up on a few things. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Wed, 4/22/09, John Sellens wrote: > From: John Sellens > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug at ss.org > Received: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 11:32 PM > | Is it possible to set up a remote > xwindow session? What I want to do is > | connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but > I still want > | to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the > remote Linux box > | in a rich GUI environment. > > Check out Xvnc(1) - it's an X server that has no actual > display or > graphics card that is also a VNC server.? Handy if > your X clients > need more bandwidth than you have e.g. if you're not on the > same > ethernet as the server.? Can also be useful if the X > clients are > not well behaved and expect a different environment than > you have > on your local display. > > As others have mentioned, you can run remote X clients on > your local > display, either by setting DISPLAY and using xauth, or by > using an > ssh connection and X forwarding.? And there's dxpc(1) > if you're > running X clients across a slower link. > > This whole possible separation of X client and server has > been in > X right from the beginning, around 1984 or so.? Pity > that Microsoft > Windows ignored everything else in the world and built a > ludicrously > restrictive environment. > > Hope that helps! > > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer? 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 13:20:43 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:20:43 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EF8A1C.5050106@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090423132042.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 09:29:13PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Marc Lanctot > | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1b4pre) > | Gecko/20090317 Lightning/1.0pre Shredder/3.0b3pre > | MIME-Version: 1.0 > | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion > | References: <597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> > | In-Reply-To: <597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> > | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Interestingly, Marc, your text shows as wider than 80 columns in my > MUA (Alpine -- pure text). But if I ask to see it raw, your lines are > appropriately short. I think that the key is format=flowed in the > Content-Type header. > > Not a complaint, just an observation. It looked like you were a > hypocrite, so that is why I investigated :-) Well in mutt, Marc's messages are very nice, and I haven't seen a line over 80 characters so far. I have never seen format=flowed in the headers before, although I never looked for it either. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 13:26:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:26:32 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <391333.79013.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090423132632.GN3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:27:52PM -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is > connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want > to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box > in a rich GUI environment. > > Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? Well you can run xdm/gdm/kdm/wdm on the box, and run an X server in remote session mode to connect to it. I used to do that a long time ago. Something like: X -query headlessbox You can even set it up on your box with the video card so that vt7 is local and vt8 runs the remote session. Look in Xservers if you run xdm, and in whatever gdm/kdm/wdm uses if you run one of those. Or for a dirty hack add this to your /etc/inittab: X1:23:respawn:/usr/bin/X -query remotehost vt8 Other interesting methods involve Xnest, which runs an X server in a window, so you could be locally doing: Xnest -geometry 1024x768 -query remotehost That would make a window 1024x768 with a session running on the remote host's *dm. In every case you have to configure the *dm on the remote box to allow remote connections, and of course disable the attempt to run a local one (which is the default for all of them), since you don't actually have a video card to run it on there I guess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 14:24:33 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission Message-ID: Hi pals, I have had a problem with photoshop for a while - it slows down the computer after 40 to 50 minutes of its usage. I struggled to fix it and finally gave up, so I am undertaking a fresh install, from the OS - XP in this case - up and this lead to the question that I need assistance on. Have anybody been able to use use photoshop CS4 from an account without administrative permission. I have installed photoshop using administrator?s account, but when I attempt to run it on an account with "power user" rights whatever that means, it freeze. Googling for the last 2 hours is not helping much also. Any suggestion would be highly appreciated. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 15:19:27 2009 From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:19:27 -0400 Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission Message-ID: I'm running 8 machines that have this configuration. I have regular installations of WinXP64, regular install of Photoshop CS4. Then I have added a "Limited" user, who uses Photoshop among other programs. Could it be that your limited users dont have write permissions on the scratch disks? -original message- Subject: [TLUG]: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission From: William Muriithi Date: 04/23/2009 10:25 Hi pals, I have had a problem with photoshop for a while - it slows down the computer after 40 to 50 minutes of its usage. I struggled to fix it and finally gave up, so I am undertaking a fresh install, from the OS - XP in this case - up and this lead to the question that I need assistance on. Have anybody been able to use use photoshop CS4 from an account without administrative permission. I have installed photoshop using administrator?s account, but when I attempt to run it on an account with "power user" rights whatever that means, it freeze. Googling for the last 2 hours is not helping much also. Any suggestion would be highly appreciated. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 15:15:30 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:15:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission References: Message-ID: William Muriithi writes: Use Gimp on Linux and it won't freeze ;) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 15:22:08 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:22:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> Message-ID: John Myshrall writes: > volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a > good idea because the air usually contains moisture. Actually compressor air is very dry but contains *oil*. This makes it in-appropriate for breathing air (e.g. diving) but ok for blowing out things, as long as you use a pressure reducer and a nozzle. The water is let down from the compressor air storage tank using a screw or valve once a year or so. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 15:34:04 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:34:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion References: <602971.45779.qm@web111216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rajinder Yadav writes: > Anyone know what is the ideal air pressure to use if you go with a air > compressor vs a air-in-a-can? Do not exceed 1.5 bars after the regulator with a normal (1-1.5mm) hand nozzle, and do not 'spin' the fans using air any more than necessary. > Also where could I find a relatively cheap (hobby) compressor that also can > be used as a vacuum? The blowers sold to inflate/deflate air beds and mattresses will do what you need, and they are not 'compressors', however they are not meant for continuous operation. Occasional use is ok. A pressure reducer is not needed in this case. Vacuuming large yucky things will void warranty (although they are supposed to withstand several oz of beach sand sucked in or out of a mattress occasionally). Hoover used to make a shop vacuum that also had a dust blower attachment, but it costs a lot of money and it's a heavy industrial device with wheels. You probably do not want that. > With my old PC I used qtips to get under the fan between the heat-sink. It was > disgusting what came out of there! I use the cpu temperature monitor to tell me when it's cleaning time. More than 5 degrees over known value at known ambient and load -> cleaning time. Works great for the laptop where it is a pain to get to the fan and one can't see whether it's clogged from outside. I once wrote software that computed when it's 'cleaning time' from these parameters, using Tk. There is no substitute for filtered air. Once upon a time (when disks were fridge sized and tape machines had exposed heads) computers ran in air conditioned, air filtered rooms. Now with textiles and fluff all around machines, plus miniaturization (increases heat load per cooler area) things have become much more complicated. I once obtained junked computer room parts that had spent 15 years operating in filtered conditioned dry air. Looked and worked as good as new. Try that today. Anyway I have no complaints about the MTBF of modern computing devices. I ran a 486 for over 7 years, and several 386 bare boards for over 10. Some were embedded systems that got so badly gunked up that I had to use a broom to 'dig' them out of fluff and dust bunnies. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 16:18:06 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:18:06 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <391333.79013.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49F094BE.3040004@dinamis.com> On 22/04/09 09:27 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is > connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want > to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box > in a rich GUI environment. > > Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? I use FreeNX for this. Works very well for me. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 17:43:41 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> Message-ID: <31870.72.37.171.60.1240508621.squirrel@72.37.171.60> > John Myshrall writes: >> volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a >> good idea because the air usually contains moisture. > > Actually compressor air is very dry but contains *oil*. This makes it > in-appropriate for breathing air (e.g. diving) but ok for blowing out > things, as > long as you use a pressure reducer and a nozzle. The water is let down > from the > compressor air storage tank using a screw or valve once a year or so. > > Peter > All large scale compressed air needs to go through a drier. When you compress air it warms up. Warm air has a better ability to hold moisture. Once it cools then the moistures condenses out. Even with that you still need point of use separators where equipment needs dry air. The air continues to cool as it travels to point of use. A small home compressor can be the oiless variety but if you are at a manufacturing facilty like me that is not the case. That is why I like the blower. Easy to use and no about moisture, oil and you don't need a compressor. John ---------------------------- Powered by Execulink Webmail http://www.execulink.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 18:27:18 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:27:18 -0400 Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Thanks, would grandly do so. I am however helping someone and believe in not pushing my taste around. If it was for my personal use. that would have been a done deal Regards, William 2009/4/23 Peter : > William Muriithi writes: > Use Gimp on Linux and it won't freeze ;) > > Peter > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 18:55:09 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: William Muriithi | Thanks, would grandly do so. I am however helping someone and believe | in not pushing my taste around. If it was for my personal use. that | would have been a done deal I think that he was trying to politely hint that your question had nothing to do with the topics of this list. It appears to be an arcane MS Windows question. On the other hand, your question indicates that you trust and value the advice of people on this list, so we can only take it as a compliment. In most cases, including this one, I consider top posting to be a Bad Thing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 15:23:04 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:23:04 -0400 Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F087D8.5080702@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Have anybody been able to use use photoshop CS4 from an account > without administrative permission. I have installed photoshop using > administrator?s account, but when I attempt to run it on an account > with "power user" rights whatever that means, it freeze. Googling for > the last 2 hours is not helping much also. > Check where PS is putting its scratch file and make sure the user has access to that directory. Few users of PS would run it as a user, and not an administrator. You may want to check Adobes's forums. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 23 21:21:34 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:21:34 -0400 Subject: Windows question - Photoshop without administrator permission In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > | Thanks, would grandly do so. ?I am however helping someone and believe > | in not pushing my taste around. ?If it was for my personal use. that > | would have been a done deal > > I think that he was trying to politely hint that your question had > nothing to do with the topics of this list. ?It appears to be an > arcane MS Windows question. > > On the other hand, your question indicates that you trust and value > the advice of people on this list, so we can only take it as a > compliment. > > In most cases, including this one, I consider top posting to be a Bad > Thing. Oh, agree. That was a mistake and I apologize. I was in hurry and I should have waited till I have enough time to it well. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 02:01:52 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:01:52 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> Message-ID: <49F11D90.8040509@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > John Myshrall writes: > >> volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a >> good idea because the air usually contains moisture. >> > > Actually compressor air is very dry but contains *oil*. This makes it > in-appropriate for breathing air (e.g. diving) but ok for blowing out things, as > long as you use a pressure reducer and a nozzle. The water is let down from the > compressor air storage tank using a screw or valve once a year or so. > > Actually, a bit more often then that. Many years ago, when I worked my summer vacations in a printing shop, that was done daily (by me). -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 02:04:42 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:04:42 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> Message-ID: <49F11E3A.5050609@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > John Myshrall writes: > >> volt)-$40.00 (plug in). Using compressed air from a compressor is not a >> good idea because the air usually contains moisture. >> > > Actually compressor air is very dry but contains *oil*. Years ago, at work, we had helium tanks labeled "HELIUM OIL FREE". I always wondered what helium oil was used for. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 03:35:49 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 03:35:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion References: <49EF051B.2070300@golden.net> <31870.72.37.171.60.1240508621.squirrel@72.37.171.60> Message-ID: writes: > All large scale compressed air needs to go through a drier. When you > compress air it warms up. Warm air has a better ability to hold moisture. Most small compressor plants use air storage tanks. The delivered air is cooled to room temperature and water condenses in the tanks, being let out from the bottom. So the output air is much dryer than ambient air. You are right that in a continuous delivery system condensation does not occur and moisture must be removed using special condensers. However, most systems contain moisture separators because too much moisture can cause a lot of trouble to the system itself. Vapor lock, freezing small expanders, liquid lock and corrosion are some of the problems that can happen, plus steam explosions when the air is used to drive f.ex. plastic injection molds. There is a pretty easy way to find out if the air is wet. Put an empty glass jar in the freezer for 1-2 hours then remove it, wipe it squeaky clean with a dry clean rag, put it on the table, and blow air from the nozzle into it at not too high volume. If there is any moisture the glass will fog immediately and even build ice on the inside (ignore outside fogging - wipe it off). Dry Helium was used in some old disk drives and to pressurize various gyroscopes afaik. It's also used in rocket technology to pressurize oxidizer (the oil would ignite if present). Book move. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 06:54:15 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <914486.79690.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Len, this looks like a solution I can use out of the box. I will have to get my other Linux box setup and play around with the idea. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > From: Lennart Sorensen > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 9:26 AM > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:27:52PM > -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? > What I want to do is > > connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, > but I still want > > to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the > remote Linux box > > in a rich GUI environment. > > > > Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > > Well you can run xdm/gdm/kdm/wdm on the box, and run an X > server in > remote session mode to connect to it.? I used to do > that a long time ago. > > Something like: > > X -query headlessbox > > You can even set it up on your box with the video card so > that vt7 is > local and vt8 runs the remote session.? Look in > Xservers if you run xdm, > and in whatever gdm/kdm/wdm uses if you run one of those. > > Or for a dirty hack add this to your /etc/inittab: > X1:23:respawn:/usr/bin/X -query remotehost vt8 > > Other interesting methods involve Xnest, which runs an X > server in a > window, so you could be locally doing: > > Xnest -geometry 1024x768 -query remotehost > > That would make a window 1024x768 with a session running on > the remote > host's *dm. > > In every case you have to configure the *dm on the remote > box to allow > remote connections, and of course disable the attempt to > run a local one > (which is the default for all of them), since you don't > actually have > a video card to run it on there I guess. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 07:18:50 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <992612.71160.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Clifford, I did not know about this project, thanks for the tip. I think I got more than I bargained for when asking this question. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Thu, 4/23/09, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > From: CLIFFORD ILKAY > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug at ss.org > Received: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 12:18 PM > On 22/04/09 09:27 PM, Rajinder Yadav > wrote: > > Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? > What I want to do is > > connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, > but I still want > > to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the > remote Linux box > > in a rich GUI environment. > > > > Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > > I use FreeNX for this. > Works very well for me. > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada? M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 13:11:48 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:11:48 -0400 Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <20090423132042.GM3796-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EF8A1C.5050106@ualberta.ca> <20090423132042.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49F1BA94.1050405@ualberta.ca> On 23/04/09 09:20 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 09:29:13PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> | From: Marc Lanctot >> | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1b4pre) >> | Gecko/20090317 Lightning/1.0pre Shredder/3.0b3pre >> | MIME-Version: 1.0 >> | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My Green Earth Day Suggestion >> | References:<597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> >> | In-Reply-To:<597510.46271.qm-ocD5SZSfVax+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8 at public.gmane.org> >> | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> Interestingly, Marc, your text shows as wider than 80 columns in my >> MUA (Alpine -- pure text). But if I ask to see it raw, your lines are >> appropriately short. I think that the key is format=flowed in the >> Content-Type header. >> >> Not a complaint, just an observation. It looked like you were a >> hypocrite, so that is why I investigated :-) How many columns do my message display at? Are they longer than everyone else's or just greater than 80? Specifically, do other messages (without format=flowed) show at less than 80? Is it one paragraph per line? According to [1] the format=flowed gets put in there to give hints to the MUA on the other end about how to format/view the quoted text. Maybe Alpine makes wider than 80 char lines in this case. I guess it's a setting in Alpine? Does anybody know if this format=flowed thing is a standard written about in an RFC somewhere? Should I turn it off? > Well in mutt, Marc's messages are very nice, and I haven't seen a line > over 80 characters so far. Somehow I feel flattered. Is that wrong? :-p > I have never seen format=flowed in the headers before, although I never > looked for it either. > [1] http://joeclark.org/ffaq.html Marc -- Somehow he was trying too hard to be like them. -- The Strokes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 13:24:34 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:24:34 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49EFCDF7.1010101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49F1BD92.4070807@ualberta.ca> On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is >> connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want >> to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box >> in a rich GUI environment. >> >> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? >> >> > > Yes, that's one of the things Linux& Unix have done for years, with X. > You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just individual apps, with > SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC etc. > Rajinder, By the sounds of your message you probably want to follow what Lennart suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have to install an implementation of X on Windows which you can find in Cygwin. For the record, if you just want to run a few apps rather than have the full rich GUI, you can use SSH like so: ssh -X username at host ssh -Y username at host (there are slight differences in the options, see man ssh). The benefit in this case is that it's all done over a secure connection (I don't think straight X is secure, but I don't know for sure). The X programs send their graphic display commands to the host that you connected from, which means it has to have an X server running on it to display your programs. So, if you're connecting from a Windows machine you'd probably have to do it through Cygwin. Marc -- Somehow he was trying too hard to be like them. -- The Strokes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 13:30:14 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:30:14 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49F1BD92.4070807-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> <49F1BD92.4070807@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49F1BEE6.4030800@ualberta.ca> On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want >>> to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box >>> in a rich GUI environment. >>> >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? >>> >>> >> >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux& Unix have done for years, with X. >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just individual apps, with >> SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC etc. >> > > Rajinder, > > By the sounds of your message you probably want to follow what Lennart > suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have to > install an implementation of X on Windows which you can find in Cygwin. > > For the record, if you just want to run a few apps rather than have the > full rich GUI, you can use SSH like so: > > ssh -X username at host > ssh -Y username at host > > (there are slight differences in the options, see man ssh). > > The benefit in this case is that it's all done over a secure connection > (I don't think straight X is secure, but I don't know for sure). I should have mentioned two more things: 1. Once you're connected to the remote host any programs you start with X will be sent through SSH (obvious, I guess). 2. Your remote host has to enable X11 forwarding through SSH. Make sure its /etc/ssh/sshd_config has: X11Forwarding yes if not, enable it, and restart ssh: /etc/init.d/ssh restart Marc -- Somehow he was trying too hard to be like them. -- The Strokes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 14:27:07 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:27:07 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49F1BD92.4070807-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> <49F1BD92.4070807@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090424142707.GA25907@yam.witteman.ca> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 09:24:34AM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > By the sounds of your message you probably want to follow what Lennart > suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have to > install an implementation of X on Windows which you can find in Cygwin. Cygwin may be more heavy-duty than you need. I use Xming, found here, and it works very nicely: http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 14:28:06 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:28:06 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy Message-ID: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> Hello all, Yesterday the regular upgrade system on my Ubuntu systems did more than just notify me of the latest Firefox bugfix; they informed me that a system upgrade is possible, to Ubuntu 9.04. Anyone following Linux news knows that this would indeed be the global launch date. I moved cautiously, doing it only on a single system. I have had a mixed past with the Ubuntu update system, finding it to be rather fragile and having too many installation scenarios that it couldn't cope with. The first install, Ubuntu on a netbook, went slowly. This was to be expected, given the Eeepc's slow processor speed and the likelihood that people from all over the world were hammering Ubuntu servers to do the same download as I did. It was so slow that I had to cancel the package download when I had to go home from the office. Previously such a cancellation would have required a complete restart of the process. But upon getting home and restarting, the update system found what had already been downloaded and picked up right where the aborted install left off. It went smoothly, and all of my netbook's features (such as recongnition of the keyboard commpands to turn certain hardware bits on and off) worked fine. So now I'm trying it on another system, a Kubuntu desktop. So far, so good. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 14:37:16 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:37:16 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49F1BD92.4070807-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> <49F1BD92.4070807@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49F1CE9C.4000500@rogers.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want >>> to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box >>> in a rich GUI environment. >>> >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? >>> >>> >> >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux& Unix have done for years, with X. >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just individual apps, with >> SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC etc. >> > > Rajinder, > > By the sounds of your message you probably want to follow what Lennart > suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have to > install an implementation of X on Windows which you can find in Cygwin. > I find Xming is easier to configure. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 14:38:19 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:38:19 -0400 Subject: Who killed KDE? Message-ID: <49F1CEDB.6030301@the-wire.com> I have a laptop that's been running kubuntu since 7.04. After an upgrade to 8, and KDE 4 it got very disappointing. The new file manager truncates long filenames. This means all the files in a new ARM7 development toolkit look exactly alike. Mouseover used to show a sort of properties popup (which could include the full name). Now mouseover just puts a bright '+' sign on the file icon, to no apparent purpose. The adept package manager used to be apt to falling over and dying. I took to using apt-get. Trying adept in kubuntu 8.10, it's hard to even see a list of packages. This post is a bit of a cheat. I was going to ask for advice, but I have the time to spare today, so I'm installing regular ubuntu 8.10, like on my desktop. Though there'll be a reprieve of an hour or so while I review my partition tables. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 15:01:26 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:01:26 -0400 Subject: Who killed KDE? In-Reply-To: <49F1CEDB.6030301-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CEDB.6030301@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <49F1D446.8030905@telly.org> Mel Wilson wrote: > I have a laptop that's been running kubuntu since 7.04. After an > upgrade to 8, and KDE 4 it got very disappointing. > > The new file manager truncates long filenames. This means all the > files in a new ARM7 development toolkit look exactly alike. Mouseover > used to show a sort of properties popup (which could include the full > name). Now mouseover just puts a bright '+' sign on the file icon, to > no apparent purpose. > > The adept package manager used to be apt to falling over and dying. I > took to using apt-get. Trying adept in kubuntu 8.10, it's hard to > even see a list of packages. > > This post is a bit of a cheat. I was going to ask for advice, but I > have the time to spare today, so I'm installing regular ubuntu 8.10, > like on my desktop. Though there'll be a reprieve of an hour or so > while I review my partition tables. Given your timing, why not just try Kubuntu 9.04? It uses a newer version of KDE that's much more stable. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 15:21:27 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:21:27 -0400 Subject: Who killed KDE? In-Reply-To: <49F1D446.8030905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CEDB.6030301@the-wire.com> <49F1D446.8030905@telly.org> Message-ID: <49F1D8F7.6080703@the-wire.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Given your timing, why not just try Kubuntu 9.04? It uses a newer > version of KDE that's much more stable. It wasn't the stability that bothered me, it was mainly not being able to tell my files apart. I acquired a bit of sense just before I started the new install. The '+' sign seems to be an icon in an icon, replacing the Ctrl-click that used to select an item. Perhaps I could have got used to that. But like I say, I cheated. The / partition is 3/4 ubuntu now. I saw that 9.04 is available, but I'm afraid of new stuff. I'll watch what happens to you. Cheers, Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 18:09:14 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:09:14 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49F1BD92.4070807-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <391333.79013.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EFCDF7.1010101@rogers.com> <49F1BD92.4070807@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49F2004A.7070805@dinamis.com> On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow session? What I want to do is >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no video card, but I still want >>> to be able to run a local KDE session controlling the remote Linux box >>> in a rich GUI environment. >>> >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? >>> >>> >> >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux& Unix have done for years, with X. >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just individual apps, with >> SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC etc. >> > > Rajinder, > > By the sounds of your message you probably want [snip] FreeNX :) > If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have to > install an implementation of the NX client available as a binary > on Windows which you can find at . On second thought, try ssh and X forwarding first and then try the FreeNX and NX Client method. You'll see a marked difference in performance. I find remote X is unusable over the Internet, even on a broadband connection. FreeNX makes it tolerable. I have to ask, however, why do you need this at all for managing a remote server? Linux is easy to manage using nothing more than a shell and a text editor. There are some server applications that require a GUI, even if it's a virtual frame buffer, but fortunately, those are not common. What is your use case? -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 24 21:49:44 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:49:44 -0400 Subject: Lovely monitor deal from Dell today Message-ID: <20090424214944.GO3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Dell has their lovely 24" S-PVA display on sale today (The 2408WFP) for $429.99 (down from $699.00). I have been using one at work for about 6 months now, and it is just lovely. I have the 2407WFP predecessor at home and find it great too. I just ordered one for my wife for the desktop I am starting to build for her. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 00:20:36 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My Green Earth Day Suggestion In-Reply-To: <49F1BA94.1050405-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <597510.46271.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49EF8A1C.5050106@ualberta.ca> <20090423132042.GM3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49F1BA94.1050405@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | How many columns do my message display at? Are they longer than everyone | else's or just greater than 80? Specifically, do other messages (without | format=flowed) show at less than 80? Is it one paragraph per line? I can change the width of my xterm and alpine knows about the change. Just for fun, I'm typing this in a 429 column window. Pine "flows" the text of your message to match the window. So this is fine for reading. It is perhaps even better than having the author break lines before column 80 -- for example, if I want to read in a 40 column xterm, it will be formatted nicely. When I do a reply, quoting the flowed message, it keeps the quoted lines to 80 characters or less (as you can see). So that too is great. Note: the line breaks are not the same ones as in the original message. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 00:34:46 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F1CC76.9040308-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | Yesterday the regular upgrade system on my Ubuntu systems did more than | just notify me of the latest Firefox bugfix; they informed me that a | system upgrade is possible, to Ubuntu 9.04. Do you know if the update program can grab packages from a 9.04 disk if available? I don't mean: boot off the 9.04 disk and say "update system" (or whatever the phraseology is). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 05:53:37 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <761380.61326.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Marc, thank you for the very detailed help! I know for myself I find the GUI environment a bit easier to be able to administrate Linux. So I would like to be able to admin a dedicated remote server that I plan to host my site on. Right now I can try to set up this environment locally with my 2 PC Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Marc Lanctot wrote: > From: Marc Lanctot > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 9:30 AM > On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot > wrote: > > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow > session? What I want to do is > >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no > video card, but I still want > >>> to be able to run a local KDE session > controlling the remote Linux box > >>> in a rich GUI environment. > >>> > >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux& Unix have > done for years, with X. > >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just > individual apps, with > >> SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like VNC > etc. > >> > > > > Rajinder, > > > > By the sounds of your message you probably want to > follow what Lennart > > suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box > you'll have to > > install an implementation of X on Windows which you > can find in Cygwin. > > > > For the record, if you just want to run a few apps > rather than have the > > full rich GUI, you can use SSH like so: > > > > ssh -X username at host > > ssh -Y username at host > > > > (there are slight differences in the options, see man > ssh). > > > > The benefit in this case is that it's all done over a > secure connection > > (I don't think straight X is secure, but I don't know > for sure). > > I should have mentioned two more things: > > 1. Once you're connected to the remote host any programs > you start with > X will be sent through SSH (obvious, I guess). > > 2. Your remote host has to enable X11 forwarding through > SSH. Make sure > its /etc/ssh/sshd_config has: > ? ? X11Forwarding yes > if not, enable it, and restart ssh: > ? ? /etc/init.d/ssh restart > > Marc > > -- > Somehow he was trying too hard to be like them. > ???-- The Strokes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer? 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 05:57:56 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <618993.79278.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Clifford, you're right most of the stuff on Linux can be done via command line. Right now maybe I am being a bit lazy? or don't trust my knowledge of Linux so it's nice to verify via a GUI system tool. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/24/09, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > From: CLIFFORD ILKAY > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug-BEuBXOPWo2E at public.gmane.orgg > Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:09 PM > On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot > wrote: > > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow > session? What I want to do is > >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no > video card, but I still want > >>> to be able to run a local KDE session > controlling the remote Linux box > >>> in a rich GUI environment. > >>> > >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux&? > Unix have done for years, with X. > >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just > individual apps, with > >> SSH and X forwading.? There's also stuff like > VNC etc. > >> > > > > Rajinder, > > > > By the sounds of your message you probably want > [snip] > > FreeNX :) > > > If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have > to > > install an implementation of > > the NX client available as a binary > > > on Windows which you can find > > at . On second thought, try ssh > and X forwarding > first and then try the FreeNX and NX Client method. You'll > see a marked > difference in performance. I find remote X is unusable over > the > Internet, even on a broadband connection. FreeNX makes it > tolerable. > > I have to ask, however, why do you need this at all for > managing a > remote server? Linux is easy to manage using nothing more > than a shell > and a text editor. There are some server applications that > require a > GUI, even if it's a virtual frame buffer, but fortunately, > those are not > common. What is your use case? > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada? M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 05:57:59 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <367889.79103.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Clifford, you're right most of the stuff on Linux can be done via command line. Right now maybe I am being a bit lazy? or don't trust my knowledge of Linux so it's nice to verify via a GUI system tool. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/24/09, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > From: CLIFFORD ILKAY > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug-BEuBXOPWo2E at public.gmane.orgg > Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:09 PM > On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot > wrote: > > On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow > session? What I want to do is > >>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no > video card, but I still want > >>> to be able to run a local KDE session > controlling the remote Linux box > >>> in a rich GUI environment. > >>> > >>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Yes, that's one of the things Linux&? > Unix have done for years, with X. > >> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just > individual apps, with > >> SSH and X forwading.? There's also stuff like > VNC etc. > >> > > > > Rajinder, > > > > By the sounds of your message you probably want > [snip] > > FreeNX :) > > > If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have > to > > install an implementation of > > the NX client available as a binary > > > on Windows which you can find > > at . On second thought, try ssh > and X forwarding > first and then try the FreeNX and NX Client method. You'll > see a marked > difference in performance. I find remote X is unusable over > the > Internet, even on a broadband connection. FreeNX makes it > tolerable. > > I have to ask, however, why do you need this at all for > managing a > remote server? Linux is easy to manage using nothing more > than a shell > and a text editor. There are some server applications that > require a > GUI, even if it's a virtual frame buffer, but fortunately, > those are not > common. What is your use case? > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada? M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 06:17:27 2009 From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote XWindow session Message-ID: <861950.91591.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> William this is excellent. I like light and the fact it's totally secure with SSH as other have mentioned about security. Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav --- On Fri, 4/24/09, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > From: William O'Higgins Witteman > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 10:27 AM > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 09:24:34AM > -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > > > By the sounds of your message you probably want to > follow what Lennart? > > suggested. If you want to do that from a Windows box > you'll have to? > > install an implementation of X on Windows which you > can find in Cygwin. > > Cygwin may be more heavy-duty than you need.? I use > Xming, found > here, and it works very nicely: > > http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ > -- > > yours, > > William > > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 06:38:42 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:38:42 -0700 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <618993.79278.qm-LGZSB/hsMXKORdMXk8NaZPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <618993.79278.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26ACCB4F-1632-427E-950C-DFB743EA5E62@gmail.com> In terms of remote servers, in many cases web based tools may be somewhat more "optimized" for such purposes than their X cousins, as they've been around for awhile. Have you tried "webmin" or "munin" etc (I do recommend putting these in a safe, password/htaccess https page if possible. - TJA (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos) On 24-Apr-09, at 10:57 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > Hi Clifford, > > you're right most of the stuff on Linux can be done via command > line. Right now maybe I am being a bit lazy? or don't trust my > knowledge of Linux so it's nice to verify via a GUI system tool. > > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > > --- On Fri, 4/24/09, CLIFFORD ILKAY > wrote: > >> From: CLIFFORD ILKAY >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Remote XWindow session >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Received: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:09 PM >> On 24/04/09 09:24 AM, Marc Lanctot >> wrote: >>> On 22/04/09 10:09 PM, James Knott wrote: >>>> Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>>>> Is it possible to set up a remote xwindow >> session? What I want to do is >>>>> connect to a remote Linux box that has no >> video card, but I still want >>>>> to be able to run a local KDE session >> controlling the remote Linux box >>>>> in a rich GUI environment. >>>>> >>>>> Is this possible, and is this easy to setup? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, that's one of the things Linux& >> Unix have done for years, with X. >>>> You can run a full desktop, using XDMCP or just >> individual apps, with >>>> SSH and X forwading. There's also stuff like >> VNC etc. >>>> >>> >>> Rajinder, >>> >>> By the sounds of your message you probably want >> [snip] >> >> FreeNX :) >> >>> If you want to do that from a Windows box you'll have >> to >>> install an implementation of >> >> the NX client available as a binary >> >>> on Windows which you can find >> >> at . On second thought, try ssh >> and X forwarding >> first and then try the FreeNX and NX Client method. You'll >> see a marked >> difference in performance. I find remote X is unusable over >> the >> Internet, even on a broadband connection. FreeNX makes it >> tolerable. >> >> I have to ask, however, why do you need this at all for >> managing a >> remote server? Linux is easy to manage using nothing more >> than a shell >> and a text editor. There are some server applications that >> require a >> GUI, even if it's a virtual frame buffer, but fortunately, >> those are not >> common. What is your use case? >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Clifford Ilkay >> Dinamis >> 1419-3266 Yonge St. >> Toronto, ON >> Canada M4N 3P6 >> >> >> +1 416-410-3326 >> > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 17:17:42 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:17:42 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <861950.91591.qm-ocD5SZSfVaz6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <861950.91591.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49F345B6.1060205@dinamis.com> On 25/04/09 02:17 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > William this is excellent. I like light and the fact it's totally secure with SSH as other have mentioned about security. Note: FreeNX uses an ssh tunnel. The NX protocol is nothing more than the X Window protocol optimized for low-bandwidth connections. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 17:17:53 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:17:53 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <26ACCB4F-1632-427E-950C-DFB743EA5E62-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <618993.79278.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <26ACCB4F-1632-427E-950C-DFB743EA5E62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F345C1.30306@dinamis.com> On 25/04/09 02:38 AM, Aviss,Tyler wrote: > In terms of remote servers, in many cases web based tools may be > somewhat more "optimized" for such purposes than their X cousins, as > they've been around for awhile. Have you tried "webmin" or "munin" etc > (I do recommend putting these in a safe, password/htaccess https page if > possible. Better yet, have webmin only listen to requests from localhost on SSL connections. You can then create an ssh tunnel (ssh -L 10000:localhost:10000 yourremoteserver) and point your browser at . -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 17:24:15 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:24:15 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F1CC76.9040308-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> Message-ID: <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> I also had a very easy time installing. I started last night and the download was slow. When I checked this morning, I was being prompted regarding some .cnf files for apache, mysql and samba. I clicked to keep the existing ones, and then it ran through to a finish. Re-booted and finished. Very straight forward. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From snkiz-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 20:15:58 2009 From: snkiz-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Ck) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:15:58 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F1CC76.9040308-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> Message-ID: <6a4686e30904251315o370af7cau6b97b1cd717993fb@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hello all, > > Yesterday the regular upgrade system on my Ubuntu systems did more than > just notify me of the latest Firefox bugfix; they informed me that a > system upgrade is possible, to Ubuntu 9.04. Anyone following Linux news > knows that this would indeed be the global launch date. > > I moved cautiously, doing it only on a single system. I have had a mixed > past with the Ubuntu update system, finding it to be rather fragile and > having too many installation scenarios that it couldn't cope with. > > The first install, Ubuntu on a netbook, went slowly. This was to be > expected, given the Eeepc's slow processor speed and the likelihood that > people from all over the world were hammering Ubuntu servers to do the > same download as I did. It was so slow that I had to cancel the package > download when I had to go home from the office. > > Previously such a cancellation would have required a complete restart of > the process. But upon getting home and restarting, the update system > found what had already been downloaded and picked up right where the > aborted install left off. It went smoothly, and all of my netbook's > features (such as recongnition of the keyboard commpands to turn certain > hardware bits on and off) worked fine. > > So now I'm trying it on another system, a Kubuntu desktop. So far, so good. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > yes if you download a live disc and burn it putting the disk into a running system should prompt you for updates. but it will only update packages on the cd so another update will be required after reboot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 25 23:45:56 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:45:56 -0400 Subject: Remote XWindow session In-Reply-To: <49F345C1.30306-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <618993.79278.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <26ACCB4F-1632-427E-950C-DFB743EA5E62@gmail.com> <49F345C1.30306@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904251645s53b89803m3e5a251b8ae746b9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I've used TightVNC with combination of SSH tunneling for slower speed DSL connections. I use an ssh, to open the local port on my box. It works very good for me. On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 1:17 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 25/04/09 02:38 AM, Aviss,Tyler wrote: >> In terms of remote servers, in many cases web based tools may be >> somewhat more "optimized" for such purposes than their X cousins, as >> they've been around for awhile. Have you tried "webmin" or "munin" etc >> (I do recommend putting these in a safe, password/htaccess https page if >> possible. > > Better yet, have webmin only listen to requests from localhost on SSL > connections. You can then create an ssh tunnel (ssh -L > 10000:localhost:10000 yourremoteserver) and point your browser at > . > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada ?M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 06:48:57 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:48:57 -0700 Subject: Fedora repair In-Reply-To: <49F5127D.7050904-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200811201258.08936.icanprogram@295.ca> <11578.173.34.8.54.1227228608.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49262398.7050408@ss.org> <49F5127D.7050904@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <7084DEA4-3D19-46BC-B4A5-179362DD99D2@gmail.com> If booting grub, see if you can get to the boot menu (hold shift or push esc, I can't remember which). On the first boot item, press "e" to edit, then append to the boot options "init=/bin/bash" and resume boot. Remount / as rw after you get a prompt and mount other shares as needed. (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos) On 26-Apr-09, at 7:03 PM, Elliott Chapin wrote: > I made a mistake in rc.local that causes the boot process to stall. > I am of course wondering how I can that file. Somehow after USB > boot? Options for h/d boot? A URL may do ... > > TIA, > E.C. > > -- > > http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 02:20:41 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:20:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora repair In-Reply-To: <49F5127D.7050904-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200811201258.08936.icanprogram@295.ca> <11578.173.34.8.54.1227228608.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49262398.7050408@ss.org> <49F5127D.7050904@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <1240798841.14827.455.camel@leon> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 22:03 -0400, Elliott Chapin wrote: > I made a mistake in rc.local that causes the boot process to stall. I > am of course wondering how I can that file. Somehow after USB boot? > Options for h/d boot? A URL may do ... Boot to single user mode then edit the file? (GRUB / LILO option) boot from usb then mount the local drive and edit the file? You'll be fine. Don't panic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 00:28:49 2009 From: matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Matthew Middleton) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:28:49 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F3473F.8030505-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> Message-ID: <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> Just ran the 9.04 Netbook Remix install from an external USB flash drive a couple days ago, and I'm pretty happy with it. The eeePC 701 has a few "special" requirements, but it was easy to find the fixes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 03:23:43 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:23:43 -0400 Subject: Fedora repair In-Reply-To: <49F5127D.7050904-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200811201258.08936.icanprogram@295.ca> <11578.173.34.8.54.1227228608.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49262398.7050408@ss.org> <49F5127D.7050904@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49F5253F.7010907@rogers.com> Elliott Chapin wrote: > I made a mistake in rc.local that causes the boot process to stall. I > am of course wondering how I can that file. Somehow after USB boot? > Options for h/d boot? A URL may do ... > > TIA, > E.C. > Boot a live CD. Then mount the drive and locate and edit the file. I know that you can do this with Mepis and Knoppix so I'd be surprised if you can't do it with Fedora as well. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 02:03:41 2009 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:03:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora repair In-Reply-To: <49262398.7050408-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <200811201258.08936.icanprogram@295.ca> <11578.173.34.8.54.1227228608.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49262398.7050408@ss.org> Message-ID: <49F5127D.7050904@teksavvy.com> I made a mistake in rc.local that causes the boot process to stall. I am of course wondering how I can that file. Somehow after USB boot? Options for h/d boot? A URL may do ... TIA, E.C. -- http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 13:21:09 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:21:09 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090427132109.GP3796@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 08:34:46PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Evan Leibovitch > > | Yesterday the regular upgrade system on my Ubuntu systems did more than > | just notify me of the latest Firefox bugfix; they informed me that a > | system upgrade is possible, to Ubuntu 9.04. > > Do you know if the update program can grab packages from a 9.04 disk > if available? > > I don't mean: boot off the 9.04 disk and say "update system" (or > whatever the phraseology is). apt certainly can, so yes. man sources.list, and find the syntax for adding cdrom repositories, or just use apt-setup to do it I guess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 22:11:36 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:11:36 -0400 Subject: network issues, can't ping my IP Message-ID: Hi all, I just noticed that I cannot access my home IP from work. I cannot go to my domain (freeyourmachine.org), and a ping returns nothing, just 100% packet loss. I do not get 'unknown host', and it's resolving to the correct IP, so not sure what the problem is. Last week I did enable this MLPPP thing on my Linksys router with the Tomato firmware, I wonder if that would have this kind of effect? What is the best way to check what is causing this, either from a remote loc'n or from home? Thanks! B. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 27 23:42:07 2009 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:42:07 -0400 Subject: fedora repair sequel Message-ID: <49F642CF.9050907@teksavvy.com> Thanks to those who offered advice. I recognized some of it in what found in the FAQ after googling "fedora rescue." With FC10 use the "a" command from the Grub menu. Append " 1" to the resulting line and hit . Singleuser mode happens, and I was able to fix rc.local with vi. The stalled boot was happening because jackd (jack audio server startup command) needs its own thread. Appending " &" to the end of the jackd line was of course the fix. Running jackd from a terminal earlier on should have told me this would happen. -- http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 00:10:15 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:10:15 +0900 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> Message-ID: <49F64967.7020200@alteeve.com> Matthew Middleton wrote: > Just ran the 9.04 Netbook Remix install from an external USB flash drive a > couple days ago, and I'm pretty happy with it. The eeePC 701 has a few > "special" requirements, but it was easy to find the fixes. I updated my Eee PC1000H last night with great luck. It was an extra gamble for me as I am far from home and would have had a hard time fixing any issues. However, I copied the ISO to an SD card I have and booted from it and networking works great out of the box now! This is quite the advance over prior versions for Intel Atom based netbooks. Also, to complicate things further, I was upgrading from an Easy Peasy install. A nice fork for netbooks, but still has some growing to do. I am happy to be back on a stock Ubuntu install. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 00:16:24 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:16:24 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux Message-ID: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Fellow Tlugers I need a large external hard disk for back up and its proofing a little tricky that it need to be. The hard disk will be attached to a system running Red Hat 5.2. I have already bought two and not having any lack. I currently have a LANTEC NexStar.CX - that is all the labelling it has, and a 1TB hard disk inside. When I plug it in to the USB port and power on the drive, the hard disk come up - can tell that from the sound and LED lighting up, but there is no activity on the host. What I mean by this is, I can not see a new entry under dev directory, the dmesg is silent. In all way, its as if nothing was attached. I have counter checked by plugging in a flash disk and it get mounted immediately, so the problem is not on the host side. It must be something to do with the external drive. Now, is there anything I can do to force the operating system to be aware of it? If there is nothing I can do about the above, does any once have experience with a 1 TB external drive that works reliably under Linux? I am fine with both USB2 or IEEE 1394b. Ideally, the hard disk should be doing 7200 rpm, but would still pick up a 5400 rpm if it work well with Linux. Any assistance would be highly appreaciated Regards, Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 00:43:52 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:43:52 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi, Fellow Tlugers > > I need a large external hard disk for back up and its proofing a > little tricky that it need to be. The hard disk will be attached to a > system running Red Hat 5.2. I have already bought two and not having > any lack. > > I currently have a LANTEC ?NexStar.CX ?- that is all the labelling it > has, and a 1TB hard disk inside. When I plug it in to the USB port and > power on the drive, the hard disk come up - can tell that from the > sound and LED lighting up, but there is no activity on the host. What > I mean by this is, I can not see a new entry under dev directory, the > dmesg is silent. In all way, its as if nothing was attached. Do tail -f /var/log/messages, then plug the drive in. Do you see anything? Also try fdisk -l > I have counter checked by plugging in a flash disk and it get mounted > immediately, so the problem is not on the host side. It must be > something to do with the external drive. Now, is there anything I can > do to force the operating system to be aware of it? In my experience (limited), it could be that the drive simply has not been formatted yet, so there is nothing to mount. Try opening up gparted and see if you can access it that way. > If there is nothing I can do about the above, does any once have > experience with a 1 TB external drive that works reliably under Linux? > I am fine with both USB2 or IEEE 1394b. Ideally, the hard disk should > be doing 7200 rpm, but would still pick up a 5400 rpm if it work well > with Linux. Any assistance would be highly appreaciated > > Regards, > > Dave > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 02:10:08 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:10:08 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F64967.7020200-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> <49F64967.7020200@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49F66580.2040000@telly.org> Madison Kelly wrote: > Also, to complicate things further, I was upgrading from an Easy Peasy > install. A nice fork for netbooks, but still has some growing to do. I > am happy to be back on a stock Ubuntu install. Hey there. I was toying with whether or not to go with EasyPeasy when I got my own Eee, but in the end decided to just use Ubuntu with and apply the directions (and add the repository) at array.org (http://www.array.org/ubuntu/) Did your stock Ubuntu still recognize everything after the upgrade? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 02:19:09 2009 From: matt-oC+CK0giAiYdmIl+iVs3AywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Matthew Middleton) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:19:09 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F66580.2040000-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> <49F64967.7020200@alteeve.com> <49F66580.2040000@telly.org> Message-ID: <000901c9c7a7$b6f64af0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> All the hardware was detected except for the webcam in my case, and I was able to locate some easy instructions on how to fix it. Also, I gather there are some known issues with a few software packages on the eeePC 701, but nothing that I use. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Evan Leibovitch Sent: April 27, 2009 10:10 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy Madison Kelly wrote: > Also, to complicate things further, I was upgrading from an Easy Peasy > install. A nice fork for netbooks, but still has some growing to do. I > am happy to be back on a stock Ubuntu install. Hey there. I was toying with whether or not to go with EasyPeasy when I got my own Eee, but in the end decided to just use Ubuntu with and apply the directions (and add the repository) at array.org (http://www.array.org/ubuntu/) Did your stock Ubuntu still recognize everything after the upgrade? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.285 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2082 - Release Date: 04/27/09 06:19:00 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 04:14:58 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:14:58 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB cable. I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never believed it if I hadn't seen it. Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. Hope this helps. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 05:04:09 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:04:09 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Dave, > > This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable > for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single > mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB > cable. > > I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. > We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never > believed it if I hadn't seen it. > > Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. > Hope this helps. > Actually, that reminded me of my experience also. I have a portable multimedia drive that uses USB, and it will only work if I plug it in to the connections on the back of my computer. The front connectors apparently do not supply enough power. B. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 09:55:51 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:55:51 +0900 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F66580.2040000-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> <49F64967.7020200@alteeve.com> <49F66580.2040000@telly.org> Message-ID: <49F6D2A7.3010305@alteeve.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: >> Also, to complicate things further, I was upgrading from an Easy Peasy >> install. A nice fork for netbooks, but still has some growing to do. I >> am happy to be back on a stock Ubuntu install. > Hey there. > > I was toying with whether or not to go with EasyPeasy when I got my own > Eee, but in the end decided to just use Ubuntu with and apply the > directions (and add the repository) at array.org > (http://www.array.org/ubuntu/) > > Did your stock Ubuntu still recognize everything after the upgrade? > > - Evan Huh, I hadn't tried the camera until you asked. Tried to spark up Cheese and crashed Gnome right out. Oh well, not perfect yet. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 14:39:36 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:39:36 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880904280739s287198caxd654c347533611bf@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: >> Dave, >> >> This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable >> for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single >> mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB >> cable. >> >> I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. >> We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never >> believed it if I hadn't seen it. >> >> Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. >> Hope this helps. >> > > Actually, that reminded me of my experience also. I have a portable > multimedia drive that uses USB, and it will only work if I plug it in > to the connections on the back of my computer. The front connectors > apparently do not supply enough power. > > B. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Thomas, Yes, I have looked at /var/log/messege and nothing showed up there. In fact, as I also said before, I looked at dmesg, where kernel level stuff tend to logged on. Nothing. I am not certain it has anything to do with power, as the case has a dc supply, so the hard disk is not running from the usb power feed. That usb port can see other usb peripherals, so its certainly attached to the motherboard. Now, the main question is, has anyone here been lucky with a huge drive on external cases. It need not be usb, I am ready to buy a firewire card if that seen to function reliably. Regards, Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 14:44:52 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:44:52 +0900 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904280739s287198caxd654c347533611bf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904280739s287198caxd654c347533611bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F71664.5050900@alteeve.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: >>> Dave, >>> >>> This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable >>> for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single >>> mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB >>> cable. >>> >>> I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. >>> We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never >>> believed it if I hadn't seen it. >>> >>> Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. >>> Hope this helps. >>> >> Actually, that reminded me of my experience also. I have a portable >> multimedia drive that uses USB, and it will only work if I plug it in >> to the connections on the back of my computer. The front connectors >> apparently do not supply enough power. >> >> B. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > Thomas, > > Yes, I have looked at /var/log/messege and nothing showed up there. In > fact, as I also said before, I looked at dmesg, where kernel level > stuff tend to logged on. Nothing. > > I am not certain it has anything to do with power, as the case has a > dc supply, so the hard disk is not running from the usb power feed. > That usb port can see other usb peripherals, so its certainly attached > to the motherboard. > > Now, the main question is, has anyone here been lucky with a huge > drive on external cases. It need not be usb, I am ready to buy a > firewire card if that seen to function reliably. > > Regards, > > Dave I run a 1TB at home and a 1.5TB at work (off-site backup for each other). Under 2.6 kernels, they work flawlessly. Both use the Vantec series carriers, one using the new power-saving carrier. Under 2.4, there was a shell script you could download that would trigger a kernel re-scan of the USB/SCSI bus that would work, but it wasn't exactly listed as a great thing to do. Under 2.2 kernels... well, all bets are off. What kernel are you running? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 15:20:29 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:20:29 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F71EBD.3010007@utoronto.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi, Fellow Tlugers > > I need a large external hard disk for back up and its proofing a > little tricky that it need to be. The hard disk will be attached to a > system running Red Hat 5.2. I have already bought two and not having > any lack. > > I currently have a LANTEC NexStar.CX - that is all the labelling it > has, and a 1TB hard disk inside. When I plug it in to the USB port and > power on the drive, the hard disk come up - can tell that from the > sound and LED lighting up, but there is no activity on the host. What > I mean by this is, I can not see a new entry under dev directory, the > dmesg is silent. In all way, its as if nothing was attached. > > I have counter checked by plugging in a flash disk and it get mounted > immediately, so the problem is not on the host side. It must be > something to do with the external drive. Now, is there anything I can > do to force the operating system to be aware of it? > > If there is nothing I can do about the above, does any once have > experience with a 1 TB external drive that works reliably under Linux? > I am fine with both USB2 or IEEE 1394b. Ideally, the hard disk should > be doing 7200 rpm, but would still pick up a 5400 rpm if it work well > with Linux. Any assistance would be highly appreaciated I have a Vantec NexStar with a 1TB WD drive, no problems on 2.6.26 or 2.6.29 (Debian and rolled my own respectively). RHEL is up to 5.3 now also and I've done upgrades (admittedly with Centos) without a hitch. Check if there's a kernel upgrade you haven't applied? Otherwise, try rolling your own kernel. Also, is your enclosure 2.5" or 3.5"? It makes a difference for the 2.5" version, it requires using the supplied cable to plug 2 usb ports into the drive for power since one usb port doesn't supply enough juice. If 3.5", check your udev rules, I've read that with some enclosures that there's a vol_id check that fails, so it might pay to hack around your 60-persistent-storage.rules file. Though I suppose your /dev/disk/by-id/ device won't be present if nothing is showing up in dmesg, so.. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 15:22:25 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:22:25 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904280739s287198caxd654c347533611bf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880904280739s287198caxd654c347533611bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090428112225.010c539a@teksavvy.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > >> Dave, > >> > >> This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable > >> for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single > >> mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB > >> cable. > >> > >> I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. > >> We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never > >> believed it if I hadn't seen it. > >> > >> Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. > >> Hope this helps. > >> > > > > Actually, that reminded me of my experience also. I have a portable > > multimedia drive that uses USB, and it will only work if I plug it in > > to the connections on the back of my computer. The front connectors > > apparently do not supply enough power. > > > > B. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > Thomas, > > Yes, I have looked at /var/log/messege and nothing showed up there. In > fact, as I also said before, I looked at dmesg, where kernel level > stuff tend to logged on. Nothing. > I am not certain it has anything to do with power, as the case has a > dc supply, so the hard disk is not running from the usb power feed. > That usb port can see other usb peripherals, so its certainly attached > to the motherboard. My device has its own power supply as well. Still, it won't work through the front USB ports on my computer, only the back. The front ports work for my iPod and thumb drive, though. Someone on here mentioned that there can be a big difference between the two, something to do with the way they're connected to the motherboard. It all sounded very similar to my experience, which is why I mention it :-) -- Joe (Thomas, Bruce, whatever the heck ya wanna call me ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlists-qPBrPDIhiSIW5WPm/PVmQw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 18:37:41 2009 From: mlists-qPBrPDIhiSIW5WPm/PVmQw at public.gmane.org (mlists) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:37:41 -0700 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090428183741.GF32680@precious> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:14:58AM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > Dave, > > This is a long shot, but it could be that you need a special USB cable > for this drive. It has two USB connections that go to a single > mini-USB connector -- this provides more power that a standard USB > cable. > > I had to order mine through Tiger Direct for my wife's 250G passport. > We plugged it in and suddenly the drive worked. Would have never > believed it if I hadn't seen it. > > Don't have a link for you right now, but it's essentially a Y cable. > Hope this helps. > I realize this doesn't apply to the original post, but I thought that I would correct this. The USB2 spec says that you can only supply 500mW of power over each usb port. Most 2.5" drives around ~80GB+ require at least 1W of power to do the initial spin-up. Lots of USB ports will provide 'over current' above and beyond the spec if the device tries to draw it, but some will not. I believe that most newer USB ports in laptops/desktop will do this. It's also notable that sometimes the USB cables themselves fail when it comes to supplying large amounts of power over them. I have an LG external CD/DVD burner that is supposed to be able to run on the power over the USB cable, but I was never able to get to work (at all) until I ended up using this one specific USB cable I have, which allows it to work flawlessly. (IIRC, even the USB cable that came with it wouldn't work) * note to OP - the kernel still saw the device even though it wasn't working with the other cables. * note to others - I did most of my research on this when I was looking at getting an external 100GB drive back when that was the largest 2.5" drive on the market (summer of '05) Back on topic, I have a 1TB Western Digital "Essentials MyBook" (or something like that) which works fine when connected to my Ubuntu desktop. (The whole thing is WD, not just the the internal 3.5" drive) If you're trying to buy a drive and case separately to save money, you might as well look at the prices of all-in-one external drives at places in Buffalo, NY. (prices in the states are a lot cheaper on these things, and for some reason the larger capacity drives seem to hit the States first before Canada) -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 18:59:11 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:59:11 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090428185911.GA21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 08:16:24PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi, Fellow Tlugers > > I need a large external hard disk for back up and its proofing a > little tricky that it need to be. The hard disk will be attached to a > system running Red Hat 5.2. I have already bought two and not having > any lack. > > I currently have a LANTEC NexStar.CX - that is all the labelling it > has, and a 1TB hard disk inside. When I plug it in to the USB port and > power on the drive, the hard disk come up - can tell that from the > sound and LED lighting up, but there is no activity on the host. What > I mean by this is, I can not see a new entry under dev directory, the > dmesg is silent. In all way, its as if nothing was attached. > > I have counter checked by plugging in a flash disk and it get mounted > immediately, so the problem is not on the host side. It must be > something to do with the external drive. Now, is there anything I can > do to force the operating system to be aware of it? Anything in dmesg? Anything in /proc/partitions? Remember if you put your own drive in a case, that you will have to partition it and format it with a filesystem to make it work. USB keys come preformated (as FAT16 or FAT32 usually) so you save having to do that. > If there is nothing I can do about the above, does any once have > experience with a 1 TB external drive that works reliably under Linux? > I am fine with both USB2 or IEEE 1394b. Ideally, the hard disk should > be doing 7200 rpm, but would still pick up a 5400 rpm if it work well > with Linux. Any assistance would be highly appreaciated I have a vantec esata/usb external case with a 1TB WD SATA drive in it. So far no problems with linux at all. It just works. Now redhat 5.2 is of course so totally ancient that it might not support devices that large (unless you didn't mean redhat 5.2, but rather RHEL 5.2 or something, which is way different than redhat 5.2). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 19:00:26 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:00:26 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <20090428183741.GF32680@precious> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> <20090428183741.GF32680@precious> Message-ID: <20090428190026.GB21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:37:41AM -0700, mlists wrote: > The USB2 spec says that you can only supply 500mW of power over each usb > port. Most 2.5" drives around ~80GB+ require at least 1W of power to do > the initial spin-up. Certainly a 1TB drive is a 3.5" drive, and hence would have to be in an enclosure with a power brick. No way to run that of USB power only. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 21:26:18 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:26:18 -0400 Subject: network issues, can't ping my IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F7747A.3030908@the-wire.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > I just noticed that I cannot access my home IP from work. I cannot go > to my domain (freeyourmachine.org), and a ping returns nothing, just > 100% packet loss. I do not get 'unknown host', and it's resolving to > the correct IP, so not sure what the problem is. I just got something like this resolved. In my case, Bell is upgrading equipment in anticipation of IPTV, and something about my line got misconfigured. To repeat some of the nouns I heard, capacity of my line was set to 8meg or 20meg, when 5meg was the setting that worked. In my case, Teksavvy eventually found the right people at Bell to talk to, and the connection was made to work a few minutes ago. The main symptom that I saw was outbound PING packet loss of up to 80%. DNS was failing because too many packets were disappearing to ever negotiate a name resolution. > Last week I did enable this MLPPP thing on my Linksys router with the > Tomato firmware, I wonder if that would have this kind of effect? > > What is the best way to check what is causing this, either from a > remote loc'n or from home? The DSL testing boxes that Bell techs carry detected this problem. The Bell CO people could fix it. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 28 21:59:47 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:59:47 -0400 Subject: Toronto mapping party, Sunday 03 May 2009 Message-ID: <1240955987.8186.10.camel@leon> For those not familiar with OpenStreetMap, it is Free Software that provides tools to create and use great maps. The project also collects Free GeoData through individual contributions and Mapping parties like this one. So it's on-topic for this list, even though it may also involve something called "fresh air". ;-) Okay, Mapping party this Sunday from 12:30pm at the Starbucks / Chapters at Bayview Village Mall (Bayview and Sheppard) We'll be cleaning up an area that is partly mapped by getting all of the road names, Points of Interest and addressing information. There is plenty of room for experienced mappers and new mappers as well. http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Toronto/calendar/10288135/ Mapping parties are a fun way to participate in the outdoor aspect of OpenStreetMap, meet like-minded folks, and get to know an area (better). Have a handheld GPS? Bring it with you! Please pass this announcement along to anybody you know who is a map-geek, a cycle advocate, a community organizer, a geo-cacher, or even a city engineer! See you Sunday! Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 13:02:32 2009 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:02:32 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 9.04 upgrade surprisingly easy In-Reply-To: <49F66580.2040000-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F1CC76.9040308@telly.org> <49F3473F.8030505@rogers.com> <002601c9c6cf$239691d0$3a0aa8c0@newdesktop> <49F64967.7020200@alteeve.com> <49F66580.2040000@telly.org> Message-ID: <2b501b820904290602s396252bbg2a0275ca835aa7c1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Did your stock Ubuntu still recognize everything after the upgrade? > Last night I installed Ubuntu 9.04 on my Asus 900HA netbook... and the only issues I had were a somewhat buggy touchpad and the Fn+F2 key combo to toggle wifi on/off didn't work. But these are well-known issues and with a bit of online reading I was able to get them to work. So far Jaunty is looking *very* good! Didn't know about the webcam problem... Will work on that later. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 15:18:39 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Street View Camera observed Message-ID: <12940.99.253.254.243.1241018319.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> While riding my bicycle, I observed what I think was a Google street view camera, mounted on a small car, southbound on Laird just north of Overlea. Does this mean I'm imortalized in a Google StreetView scene as Guy on Bicycle? Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 15:25:06 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X Message-ID: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be aware that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common command sequence ls | more. This is probably common knowledge, but I was also surprised to find that the Delete key works as a Backspace key and there is no Backspace key. Minimalism is fine, but this seems a bit strange. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 15:34:31 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:34:31 -0400 Subject: Google Street View Camera observed In-Reply-To: <12940.99.253.254.243.1241018319.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <12940.99.253.254.243.1241018319.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <49F87387.3020405@rogers.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > While riding my bicycle, I observed what I think was a Google street view > camera, mounted on a small car, southbound on Laird just north of Overlea. > > Does this mean I'm imortalized in a Google StreetView scene as Guy on > Bicycle? > > Peter > > I guess so. Are you going to sue for invasion of privacy? ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 15:54:56 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be aware > that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. Wow. Removing a character that is standard on QWERTY keyboards is just going to cause issues. The character would have originally been chosen due to its prevalance. > The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common > command sequence ls | more. I hope it reads $PAGER. And of course this will completely fail to help me any of the other 500 times I use a | each day :) Thanks for heads up Peter. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:08:10 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:08:10 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20090429160810.GC21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:25:06AM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be aware > that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. > > The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common > command sequence ls | more. > > This is probably common knowledge, but I was also surprised to find that > the Delete key works as a Backspace key and there is no Backspace key. > > Minimalism is fine, but this seems a bit strange. How old is that mac. This mac keyboard clearly has one, right by the enter key: http://www.mrtotes.co.uk/UK_Mac_Keyboard.jpg On macbooks apparently it gets tricky though. Shift+alt+L -> | Shift+alt+/ -> \ I guess I won't ever get a macbook as long as the keyboard is like that. I wouldn't be able to deal with that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:12:54 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a > Mac, be aware that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' > (ie, pipe-to} symbol. Which keyboards are those? Mine has it just fine. > This is probably common knowledge, but I was also surprised to > find that the Delete key works as a Backspace key and there is > no Backspace key. It is the other way around. :-) There *is* a backspace key, labelled "Delete". This is just a naming issue (backspace is a misnomer anyway, better name will back-delete). Some keyboard may missing forward-delete key. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:20:44 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <20090429160810.GC21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090429160810.GC21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On macbooks apparently it gets tricky though. > > Shift+alt+L -> | > Shift+alt+/ -> \ Where that came from? Looks normal here: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1635 -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:25:15 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:25:15 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <49F87F6B.1020602@ualberta.ca> On 29/04/09 11:25 AM, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be aware > that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. > > The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common > command sequence ls | more. > > This is probably common knowledge, but I was also surprised to find that > the Delete key works as a Backspace key and there is no Backspace key. > > Minimalism is fine, but this seems a bit strange. > ... wait till he finds out there's no right mouse-button! :-p (The work-around is Apple + Single Mouse Click.) Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:36:59 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <49F87F6B.1020602-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49F87F6B.1020602@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > ... wait till he finds out there's no right mouse-button! :-p That's old school. :-) Most new Macs now come with no actual mouse button at all. :-) The desktop came with mighty mouse which has no clear button on the top (ok it has side buttons but few actually use them). Instead clicking the top left of the mouse is same as clicking left button, top right as right button, and top middle as middle button. The unbody macbooks really have button! Instead the whole (huge) trackpad is a button (it can be physically pressed down). You can allocate one corner as right button or you can simply click the pad using 2 finger instead of 1 (yes the trackpad know how many finger you put in the pad). -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:37:33 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:37:33 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <49F8824D.3090104@ualberta.ca> On 29/04/09 11:25 AM, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be aware > that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. > > The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common > command sequence ls | more. > > This is probably common knowledge, but I was also surprised to find that > the Delete key works as a Backspace key and there is no Backspace key. > > Minimalism is fine, but this seems a bit strange. > Some (the MacBook at least) also don't have: PageUp, PageDown, Home, and End. It took some getting used to. Solution: install Linux and use xmodmap :-p http://www.oddprocess.org/wp/2007/07/05/macbook-page-updown-keys-in-linux/ Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:49:18 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:49:18 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090429160810.GC21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090429164918.GD21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:20:44PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On macbooks apparently it gets tricky though. >> >> Shift+alt+L -> | >> Shift+alt+/ -> \ > > Where that came from? Looks normal here: > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1635 http://infopython.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/mac-keyboard-shortcuts-how-write-a-pipe-or-backslash-on-macbook/ -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:57:16 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <49F8824D.3090104-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49F8824D.3090104@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Some (the MacBook at least) also don't have: PageUp, PageDown, > Home, and End. It took some getting used to. Laptop or other compact keyboard often have something lacking. > Solution: install Linux and use xmodmap :-p Nah, solution is not using compact or laptop keyboard. :-) BTW OS X do have xmodmap for X applications. For Cocoa application, it also has keybinding mechanism: http://www.erasetotheleft.com/post/mac-os-x-key-bindings/ -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 16:59:29 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <20090429164918.GD21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090429160810.GC21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090429164918.GD21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > http://infopython.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/mac-keyboard-shortcuts-how-write-a-pipe-or-backslash-on-macbook/ Apparently for some weird foreign keyboard, or simply outdated. :-) -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 17:55:05 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:55:05 -0400 Subject: problem with hal and policykit Message-ID: <20090429135505.1f8ecd2c@teksavvy.com> There was a large update last night for my Debian Testing system, and it's caused some problems with mounting external drives. I get this error when trying to mount my USB drive: org.freedesktop.hal.storage.mount-removable no <-- (action, result). I've looked at several search results with that exact phrase, and they all poin to this PolicyKit, and recommend editing its config files...not sure whether I want to go and do that without further guidance. Anyone else ran into this? Thanks! -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 18:09:07 2009 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:09:07 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <49F8824D.3090104-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <49F8824D.3090104@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090429180907.4B69D854F4@sarg.ryerson.ca> I have an old titanium 15" macbook and a macbook air a keyboards of a variety of ages on an eMac, and 3 iMacs (an articulated G4, a G5, and an Intel 24" (I think - it's in a room with a sleeping baby at the moment). None of the keyboards are missing \ or |. The macbooks miss pgup, pgdn, home and end, but they are all Fn+some arrow key. The delete-back key might conceivably map as backspace (by which I presume you mean  - i.e. ^H) in some contexts, but it works as proper  (^?) (0177) everywhere for me. Delete-forward is Fn+delete-back. BTW, you can also set all the f1-f12 keys to send that code as the default and require Fn-F1 to do the screen-dim or whatever function (I think by default you have to press Fn-F1 to send a F1 key). I've been using Unix in one form or another for 27 years, and only started using Macs when they became Unix-based. I would not have been willing to switch if I had to retrain my fingers that much. BTW, on a unibutton mouse, Ctrl-click is right-click, and Cmd-click is middle-click. System preferences can allow you to manipulate what multi-button mice do. On multi-finger sensitive trackpads, you can set that a 2-finger tap is right-click. While I don't like unibutton mice, the single-button Air trackpad is fine for me to work with. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 18:24:42 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a > Mac, be aware that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' > (ie, pipe-to} symbol. I believe your information is *wrong*. I myself have access to PowerMac 7100 (1995) keyboard, iBook G4 (early 2006) keyboard, and late 2006 iMac keyboard, all of them have one specific key for \ and |. A bit research shows that apparently Mac has been always have that key, as can be seen here: http://lowendmac.com/mail/0807mb/0729.html#11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Powerbook_150.jpg http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1635 http://www.apple.com/ca/keyboard/ The only thing I can think of is that you are talking about non-US keyboard layout. In that case it has nothing to do with Mac, any PC with that keyboard layout will have the same issue. -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ **** http://www.arifsaha.com/christhasrisen.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 19:34:04 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <5750.99.253.254.243.1241033644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > I believe your information is *wrong*. > The only thing I can think of is that you are talking about > non-US keyboard layout. In that case it has nothing to do with > Mac, any PC with that keyboard layout will have the same issue. > That may well be the case. This (and the ls -more thing) was reported by one of our customers in Australia. He has a mac tower PPC system and a macbook. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:01:28 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:01:28 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume Message-ID: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> I'm not sure when this started but currently alsamixer will not change any sound volumes or even mute channels. I have sound but it is a persistent volume only. Evening running alsamixer as root makes no difference. My sound card is a old, but well supported, SBLive. Any ideas? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:05:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:05:51 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429200128.GA2452-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20090429200550.GE21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:01:28PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm not sure when this started but currently alsamixer will not change > any sound volumes or even mute channels. I have sound but it is a > persistent volume only. Evening running alsamixer as root makes no > difference. My sound card is a old, but well supported, SBLive. Is your alsa utilities and libraries and driver the same versions? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:01:00 2009 From: ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Amanda Yilmaz) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:01:00 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <1241035260.3586.1312975153@webmail.messagingengine.com> > For anyone who intends to work at the operating system of a Mac, be > aware > that some Mac keyboards do not include the '|' (ie, pipe-to} symbol. > > The ls command now has an option ls -more to make up for the common > command sequence ls | more. While I'm not an Apple fan (not any more, anyway), I find it difficult to believe Apple would make it impossible to type such an important character as "|" on any modern keyboard layout. Depending on the keyboard layout involved, however, it might be in an unexpected place. For example, if it's a British keyboard (easily distinguished by the existence of the pound symbol "?" rather than "#" on top of the "3" key), "|" will usually be found at the bottom left of the keyboard, directly to the left of the "Z" key. If it's a standard Canadian French keyboard ("?" at the bottom right next to the right Shift key, French-style quotes ("??") to left of "Z"), "|" will usually be found at the top left of the keyboard, where "~" usually is on US/Canadian English keyboards. Some international layouts, such as the "Canadian Multilingual Standard" layout (an alternative French-capable layout seen on older Macs and some other machines, distinguished by having separate keys for the grave-accented letters "?", "?" and "?", with "?" lying to the left of "Z") don't have "|" as one of the normal marked keys, but will allow you to type "|" using an Option-key combination (Macs) or AltGr-key comination (PCs). ("AltGr" is the right Alt key, which is marked "AltGr" rather than "Alt" on most international keyboards, and is used as a third-level shift key in the same way the Option key is used on the Mac.) The Swedish/Finnish layout is another example of this, where (on PCs) you must type AltGr-< to get "|". To make things even more interesting, the powers that be in certain countries' standardization organizations apparently found it important to distinguish between the solid bar "|" (the standard ASCII character) and the broken bar "?" (apparently an old EBCDIC character, now Unicode U+00A6), and to mark them both on the same keyboard. For example, as noted earlier, British keyboards generally have the solid bar "|" on a separate key at the bottom left next to "Z", but you will also see a broken-bar glyph "?" at the top left on the same key as "?`"; typing AltGr-` will produce the broken bar "?". Needless to say, using the EBCDIC broken bar "?" rather than the standard ASCII "|" in a *nix shell is unlikely to have the desired effect. Compounding this further, some keyboards (including mine) actually show a broken-bar glyph "?" on the physical keyboard even though the actual character typed for that key is the solid bar "|". In addition, in many console fonts the glyph for ASCII "|" actually looks like a broken bar "?", presumably for historical reasons. This is probably similar to the situation with "^", which formerly appeared as an up-arrow "?" in the early days of ASCII. Of course, on most modern computers and operating systems you can just change the keyboard layout in software and forget the whole thing. Amanda -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:10:03 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:10:03 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429200128.GA2452-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <49F8B41B.1040600@ualberta.ca> On 09-04-29 04:01 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm not sure when this started but currently alsamixer will not change > any sound volumes or even mute channels. I have sound but it is a > persistent volume only. Evening running alsamixer as root makes no > difference. My sound card is a old, but well supported, SBLive. > > Any ideas? Is it the mixer? Have you tried aumix or xmix? We'll probably need more info. What distro are you using? Some need the current user to be in the sound/audio group. What are your permissions on /dev/dsp? I've found that Adobe's flash or other apps can do funny things with the sound "state", and sometimes I've noticed it stays that way even after the program is done. I assume you've restarted X? In not, try that and see. Marc -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:10:51 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:10:51 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429200550.GE21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <20090429200550.GE21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090429201051.GA3310@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:05:51PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Is your alsa utilities and libraries and driver the same versions? I think so. They've been installed by Debian and not touched by me. How would I check? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:19:02 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:19:02 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <49F8B41B.1040600-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <49F8B41B.1040600@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090429201902.GA3914@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:10:03PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > What distro are you using? Some need the current user to be in the > sound/audio group. What are your permissions on /dev/dsp? Debian lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root 24 2009-04-26 13:32 /dev/sndstat -> /proc/asound/oss/sndstat /dev/snd: total 0 crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 0 2009-04-26 13:32 controlC0 crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 4 2009-04-26 13:32 hwC0D0 crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, 6 2009-04-29 13:17 hwC0D2 crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 8 2009-04-26 13:32 midiC0D0 crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, 9 2009-04-29 13:17 midiC0D1 crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, 10 2009-04-29 13:17 midiC0D2 crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 24 2009-04-29 13:17 pcmC0D0c crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 16 2009-04-29 15:20 pcmC0D0p crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 25 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D1c crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 26 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D2c crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 18 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D2p crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 19 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D3p crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 1 2009-04-26 13:32 seq crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 33 2009-04-26 13:32 timer audio:x:29:neil This problem persists even after reboots. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:33:12 2009 From: ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Amanda Yilmaz) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:33:12 -0400 Subject: Linux person uses (tries to use) Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <5750.99.253.254.243.1241033644.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <3052.99.253.254.243.1241018706.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <5750.99.253.254.243.1241033644.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <1241037192.9232.1312979591@webmail.messagingengine.com> >> I believe your information is *wrong*. >> >> The only thing I can think of is that you are talking about >> non-US keyboard layout. In that case it has nothing to do with >> Mac, any PC with that keyboard layout will have the same issue. > > That may well be the case. This (and the ls -more thing) was reported by > one of our customers in Australia. He has a mac tower PPC system and a > macbook. As far as I understand it, Australia and New Zealand use the same layout as the US and English-speaking Canada, but the computer(s) may well have been bought in another country. Amanda -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 20:34:10 2009 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:34:10 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429201902.GA3914-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <49F8B41B.1040600@ualberta.ca> <20090429201902.GA3914@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:10:03PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> >> What distro are you using? Some need the current user to be in the >> ?sound/audio group. What are your permissions on /dev/dsp? > > Debian > > lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root ?24 2009-04-26 13:32 /dev/sndstat -> > /proc/asound/oss/sndstat > > /dev/snd: > total 0 > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, ?0 2009-04-26 13:32 controlC0 > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, ?4 2009-04-26 13:32 hwC0D0 > crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, ?6 2009-04-29 13:17 hwC0D2 > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, ?8 2009-04-26 13:32 midiC0D0 > crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, ?9 2009-04-29 13:17 midiC0D1 > crw-rw----. 1 root audio 116, 10 2009-04-29 13:17 midiC0D2 > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 24 2009-04-29 13:17 pcmC0D0c > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 16 2009-04-29 15:20 pcmC0D0p > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 25 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D1c > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 26 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D2c > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 18 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D2p > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 19 2009-04-26 13:32 pcmC0D3p > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, ?1 2009-04-26 13:32 seq > crw-rw----+ 1 root audio 116, 33 2009-04-26 13:32 timer > > audio:x:29:neil > > This problem persists even after reboots. > If something else is controlling the mixer, you should at least be able to see it using "lsof | grep dev.snd" or similar. I know that the sblive is bristling with inputs and outputs, and some of the outputs are not affected by, for example, the master volume. Take note of which output you're using - you might want to try others, and frankly experiment with some of the controls (all channel versus front/back versus separate stereo controls) and all the separate volume controls. It's a great card but suffers a bit from too many configurable options. Kind of like Linux. Cheers, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 21:03:46 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:03:46 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429200550.GE21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <20090429200550.GE21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090429210346.GA5685@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:05:51PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Is your alsa utilities and libraries and driver the same versions? Minor version variation. ettin:/etc# alsamixer --version alsamixer: invalid option -- '-' AlsaMixer v1.0.19 Usage: alsamixer [-h] [-c ] [-D ] [-g] [-s] [-V ] [-a ] ettin:/etc# cat /proc/asound/version Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver Version 1.0.16. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 21:47:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:47:58 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429201051.GA3310-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <20090429200550.GE21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090429201051.GA3310@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20090429214758.GF21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 04:10:51PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I think so. They've been installed by Debian and not touched by me. How > would I check? Probably: dpkg -l |grep alsa-utils dpkg -l |grep libasound cat /proc/asound/version -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 21:48:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:48:32 -0400 Subject: Help. Cannot change sound volume In-Reply-To: <20090429210346.GA5685-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429200128.GA2452@watson-wilson.ca> <20090429200550.GE21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090429210346.GA5685@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20090429214832.GG21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 05:03:46PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > Minor version variation. > > ettin:/etc# alsamixer --version > alsamixer: invalid option -- '-' > AlsaMixer v1.0.19 > Usage: alsamixer [-h] [-c ] [-D ] [-g] [-s] > [-V ] [-a ] > ettin:/etc# cat /proc/asound/version Advanced Linux Sound Architecture > Driver Version 1.0.16. .16 to .19 is a huge difference in alsa development. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 29 22:29:01 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:29:01 -0400 Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic Message-ID: Hi, I am interested in learning more about SAN and it looks like its not going to be that easy. The biggest reason is that these hardware are rare and working with one is more like a privilege - akin to using supercomputers. The second reason is, there is I can not seem to find a book that present the material in an interesting and practical way. I naturally went to O'Reilly as I like the way they present material but their book on the topic is dated. 2002 is a century in the world of technology. It would not have anything to do with native multipath stuff for Linux for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_I/O I am wondering if anyone among us have been lucky to work extensively with SAN and would be willing to share the knowledge. I think we could all gain by exchanging experience on the subject, for example on: - Good practical reference we have come across - be either books or web links. - Share experience on hardware performance, especially when using multipathd and Linux in general. Yeah, I could get that information from the white page, but I will be frank and say I do not trust marketing department. - Any interesting way of gaining experience on the subject without parting with thousands of dollars. Ah, one observation, wikipedia has a very good introduction article on it. I especially liked their diagrams. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 05:17:31 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MP3 player support Message-ID: I'm trying to figure out Linux support for media players. Unfortunately, I missed Colin's talk about media players at NewTLUG in January. We want to organize a bunch of songs in MP3 form, with playlists. The best players that we have are MTP / PaysForSure: Sandisk Sansa E260 (with stock firmware) and Creative Zen V. (We're hoping to use a player plus amplified speakers as a replacement for a stationary stereo system. So physical size doesn't matter. A nice interface and display would be valued. We'd prefer to use one of the two players we already have so that we can learn how actual use works out. We do think that playlists will be important.) Here's what I think I know. It seemed hard to discover. Amarok does not support playlists on MTP players. They expect this to be remedied by a Google Summer of Code project. Rhythmbox 2.x does not support playlists on MTP players. Rhythmbox 1.4 did, but that isn't the version that current Fedora or Ubuntu support. http://live.gnome.org/RhythmboxRemovableMedia Gnomad2 does support the Zen V's playlists. It's a bit crude and not being actively developed (as far as I know). We could use a Nokia 770 for this task but haven't thought that through. I'm not sure, but I think that the iPod support might be better than the MTP players, even though the iPod is more proprietary. We might break down and buy an iPod. I don't actually know what iPod makes sense to buy. Here are some hints but I don't know how to map these into iPods actually for sale: http://gtkpod.wikispaces.com/Supported+iPods Do you use an mp3 player and manipulate playlists with Linux software? What player? What software? How has your experience been? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 05:37:10 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:37:10 -0400 Subject: problem with hal and policykit In-Reply-To: <20090429135505.1f8ecd2c-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090429135505.1f8ecd2c@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090430013710.43158a9a@teksavvy.com> JoeHill wrote: > There was a large update last night for my Debian Testing system, and it's > caused some problems with mounting external drives. > > I get this error when trying to mount my USB drive: > > org.freedesktop.hal.storage.mount-removable no <-- (action, result). > > I've looked at several search results with that exact phrase, and they all > poin to this PolicyKit, and recommend editing its config files...not sure > whether I want to go and do that without further guidance. > > Anyone else ran into this? Apparently not... Okay, this fixed it, in case anyone does: edit /etc/PolicyKit/PolicyKit.conf, add: -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 06:37:32 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:37:32 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090430023732.395e1eab@teksavvy.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Do you use an mp3 player and manipulate playlists with Linux software? > What player? What software? How has your experience been? iPod Classic, 80GB. It works pefectly with gtkpod. Playlists are a breeze, drag and drop, all that jazz. Video too, of course. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 13:49:34 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:49:34 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 01:17:31AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm trying to figure out Linux support for media players. > Unfortunately, I missed Colin's talk about media players at NewTLUG in > January. > > We want to organize a bunch of songs in MP3 form, with playlists. The > best players that we have are MTP / PaysForSure: Sandisk Sansa E260 > (with stock firmware) and Creative Zen V. > > (We're hoping to use a player plus amplified speakers as a replacement for > a stationary stereo system. So physical size doesn't matter. A nice > interface and display would be valued. We'd prefer to use one of the > two players we already have so that we can learn how actual use works > out. We do think that playlists will be important.) > > > Here's what I think I know. It seemed hard to discover. > > Amarok does not support playlists on MTP players. They expect this to > be remedied by a Google Summer of Code project. The e260 can work as usb mass storage too, you just have to select it in the setup on the player. If you don't have the option, upgrade the firmware. The latest version has the option apparently. Older models of the w260 can also run rockbox instead of the original firmware, which allows SDHC use (so larger than 2GB cards), as well as support for other file formats. > Rhythmbox 2.x does not support playlists on MTP players. Rhythmbox > 1.4 did, but that isn't the version that current Fedora or Ubuntu > support. http://live.gnome.org/RhythmboxRemovableMedia > > Gnomad2 does support the Zen V's playlists. It's a bit crude and not > being actively developed (as far as I know). > > We could use a Nokia 770 for this task but haven't thought that > through. > > I'm not sure, but I think that the iPod support might be better than > the MTP players, even though the iPod is more proprietary. We might > break down and buy an iPod. I don't actually know what iPod makes > sense to buy. Here are some hints but I don't know how to map these > into iPods actually for sale: > http://gtkpod.wikispaces.com/Supported+iPods > > Do you use an mp3 player and manipulate playlists with Linux software? > What player? What software? How has your experience been? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 14:54:22 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:54:22 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: <20090430134934.GH21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49F9BB9E.3080200@ualberta.ca> On 30/04/09 09:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 01:17:31AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> I'm trying to figure out Linux support for media players. >> Unfortunately, I missed Colin's talk about media players at NewTLUG in >> January. >> >> We want to organize a bunch of songs in MP3 form, with playlists. The >> best players that we have are MTP / PaysForSure: Sandisk Sansa E260 >> (with stock firmware) and Creative Zen V. >> >> (We're hoping to use a player plus amplified speakers as a replacement for >> a stationary stereo system. So physical size doesn't matter. A nice >> interface and display would be valued. We'd prefer to use one of the >> two players we already have so that we can learn how actual use works >> out. We do think that playlists will be important.) >> >> >> Here's what I think I know. It seemed hard to discover. >> >> Amarok does not support playlists on MTP players. They expect this to >> be remedied by a Google Summer of Code project. > > The e260 can work as usb mass storage too, you just have to select > it in the setup on the player. If you don't have the option, upgrade > the firmware. The latest version has the option apparently. > > Older models of the w260 can also run rockbox instead of the original > firmware, which allows SDHC use (so larger than 2GB cards), as well as > support for other file formats. > Rockbox supports the Sansa e260 as well.. that's what I have an it works like a charm. Adding/removing songs is as easy as dropping them or taking them out of a particular folder, like you would any other mass storage device -- no special software/protocols needed. It plays OGGs. It has a microphone. It has FM radio. It has plugins for apps etc. It even has games on the thing. :) The playlists are kept as text files in a directory on the device; I usually just empty it and regenerate a new list from the device itself whenever I make changes to the song (I have a single playlist), but any program capable of creating playlists and exporting them in .m3u format should work because that's what Rockbox uses. The only problem I've had with Rockbox is that the amount of power left in the battery is reported wrong (it always shows less than what is really left). I'm using version/build r17435-080510.. I'm sure that's been fixed new versions. Check out http://www.rockbox.org/ for full details. The interface is quite usable. I can bring it and let you use mine for a bit next meeting if you want to see what you think for yourself. Marc -- When someone says, "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I want done," give him a lollipop. -- Alan Perlis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 15:03:34 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:03:34 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: <49F9BB9E.3080200-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49F9BB9E.3080200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49F9BDC6.3080504@ualberta.ca> On 30/04/09 10:54 AM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 30/04/09 09:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: [snip] >> The e260 can work as usb mass storage too, you just have to select >> it in the setup on the player. If you don't have the option, upgrade >> the firmware. The latest version has the option apparently. >> >> Older models of the w260 can also run rockbox instead of the original >> firmware, which allows SDHC use (so larger than 2GB cards), as well as >> support for other file formats. >> > > Rockbox supports the Sansa e260 as well.. that's what I have an it works > like a charm. I think Lennart made a typo.. I think his w260 was meant as an 'e260'; I just checked on the site and their support for Sansa: "SanDisk: Sansa c200 series, e200 series and e200R series (not the AMS models)" So I guess Lennart was referring to the "AMS models"? I bought mine about a year ago. Marc -- When someone says, "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I want done," give him a lollipop. -- Alan Perlis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 15:31:34 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another netbook deal Message-ID: HP's 2133 netbook series seems to be very well thought-of EXCEPT that it uses the Via C7 processor instead of the Intel Atom. So it is slower and hotter. Oh, and they were expensive. HP has ditched the line, I think. They've come out with an Atom-based model. So the old ones are going for a very good price. See here: http://h20386.www2.hp.com/CanadaStore/Product.aspx?pdetail=P41462 What about them is good? (Note, this is based on reviews and no actual use): - the display is really nice and higher resolution than any other netbook: 1280 x 768. Since it is 8.9", some may complain that this is actually too much resolution. You can never have too much resolution: just scale things to be readable: then higher resolution yields sharper text rather than more of it. - some reviews think that it has the best keyboard of any netbook. Of course your opinion is the only one that you should care about. - the "fit and finish" and "look" seem to have been the best. I suspect that this comes out of the higher price that they were designed for. - two of the three models on sale have 6-cell batteries (on most netbooks, that adds about $100 to the price). But I don't actually know how the C7 burns through that. Of course that adds to the weight and might not be the right tradeoff for you. - Two of the three have Blue Tooth. Not present on all (any?) cheap netbooks (actually, I haven't kept score). Unlike most netbooks, these come with Vista. Of course we'd blow that away and install Linux. But it has implications: MS constrained the power of netbooks that could have XP licenses, and these boxes don't have those constraints. Intel constrains systems with Atoms too, and these don't have those constraints. I think that one model has more RAM than MS would allow for XP. I think that the display resolution may be above the XP constraint too. I've heard that Staples is deeply discounting these too, but they probably have little stock left. Me? I like the idea of a netbook, but it doesn't have a real niche in my world because it isn't enough different from my 12" ThinkPad x61t. If I needed a netbook, I'd seriously consider the third HP listed. The second one is more expensive than the third but it has more RAM. RAM is good (and less disk). I don't know how easy and cheap it is to upgrade the RAM. There is a good chance that the Via C7 does not support DDR2 and hence RAM might be more expensive than the amazing DDR2 prices available these days. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 03:40:06 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The SAN guy where I work says he might be interested in preparing a Linux SAN talk, if he's got time to prepare one. Might need a little arm twisting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, William Muriithi wrote: > Hi, > > I am interested in learning more about SAN and it looks like its not > going to be that easy. The biggest reason is that these hardware are > rare and working with one is more like a privilege - akin to using > supercomputers. The second reason is, there is I can not seem to find > a book that present the material in an interesting and practical way. > I naturally went to O'Reilly as I like the way they present material > but their book on the topic is dated. 2002 is a century in the world > of technology. It would not have anything to do with native multipath > stuff for Linux for example. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_I/O > > I am wondering if anyone among us have been lucky to work extensively > with SAN and would be willing to share the knowledge. I think we could > all gain by exchanging experience on the subject, for example on: > > - Good practical reference we have come across - be either books or web links. > - Share experience on hardware performance, especially when using > multipathd and Linux in general. Yeah, I could get that information > from the white page, but I will be frank and say I do not trust > marketing department. > - Any interesting way of gaining experience on the subject without > parting with thousands of dollars. > > Ah, one observation, wikipedia has a very good introduction article on > it. I especially liked their diagrams. > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 15:46:45 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: <49F9BB9E.3080200-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49F9BB9E.3080200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | On 30/04/09 09:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: | > The e260 can work as usb mass storage too, you just have to select | > it in the setup on the player. If you don't have the option, upgrade | > the firmware. The latest version has the option apparently. That might be a good idea. I wonder how well it works. | > Older models of the w260 can also run rockbox instead of the original | > firmware, which allows SDHC use (so larger than 2GB cards), as well as | > support for other file formats. I actually bought the e260 to hack on with RockBox. I haven't gotten to that. But this is for Kadge (my wife) and I've inflicted too much beta-quality stuff on her already :-) | Rockbox supports the Sansa e260 as well.. that's what I have an it works like | a charm. Adding/removing songs is as easy as dropping them or taking them out | of a particular folder, like you would any other mass storage device -- no | special software/protocols needed. | Check out http://www.rockbox.org/ for full details. I thought that rockbox didn't support USB yet. That you had to reboot to the original firmware to load stuff up. Mind you, I haven't checked the project site for some months. I also thought that rockbox's power management was a problem (not just power reporting). | The interface is quite usable. I can bring it and let you use mine for a bit | next meeting if you want to see what you think for yourself. Sure. I have to admit that only laziness (other priorities) has prevented me from trying it myself. Newegg.ca is selling refurbs cheap, today only: http://www.newegg.ca/Special/ShellShocker.aspx $48.99 + free shipping (but they always charge about US$1 for shipping when they say it is free -- odd). Factory Direct has these refurbs off and on. That's where I bought mine. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 16:01:47 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:01:47 -0400 Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:29 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > ?I am wondering if anyone among us have been lucky to work extensively > with SAN and would be willing to share the knowledge. I think we could > all gain by exchanging experience on the subject, for example on: > > - Good practical reference we have come across - ?be either books or web links. > - ?Share experience on hardware performance, especially when using > multipathd and Linux in general. Yeah, I could get that information > from the white page, but I will be frank and say I do not trust > marketing department. > - ?Any interesting way of gaining experience on the subject without > parting with thousands of dollars. Sounds interesting... The one challenge I'd foresee is that there are two perspectives on this that are quite different in their slants: a) Those that are doing "hard-core" SAN work, where maximizing numbers of spindles is worth paying extra money, and where multichannel FibreChannel is worthwhile. I saw the following recently that explains that (though doesn't particulary explain *why*) expensive disks can give 10x better performance than the cheaper disks. http://www.dbms2.com/2009/04/28/data-warehouse-storage-options-cheap-expensive-or-solid-state-disk-drives/ In this world, spending an extra $100K to get better performance isn't "out there." But then there's... b) Those of us that would like to hook up a bunch of cheap storage. Thus, 'What are the sorts of "Sweet Points" where you get the "mostest for the leastest", where spending more on it *wouldn't* give you extra value?" Both ends are interesting, albeit in different ways. On the "discipline" side, the best sort of "gentle speaker" probably knows when (and how often!) to say: "That's fine if your budget is $400, but not if you really need performance" or "Perhaps, but only if your budget is $80K". :-) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the f... - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_einstein.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 16:31:11 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:31:11 -0400 Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ken 2009/4/29 Ken Burtch > > The SAN guy where I work says he might be interested in preparing a Linux > SAN talk, if he's got time to prepare one. Might need a little arm > twisting. > Thank, please do the necessary "arm twisting". We would highly appreciate. Regards, William > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 > "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, William Muriithi wrote: > > Hi, >> >> I am interested in learning more about SAN and it looks like its not >> going to be that easy. The biggest reason is that these hardware are >> rare and working with one is more like a privilege - akin to using >> supercomputers. The second reason is, there is I can not seem to find >> a book that present the material in an interesting and practical way. >> I naturally went to O'Reilly as I like the way they present material >> but their book on the topic is dated. 2002 is a century in the world >> of technology. It would not have anything to do with native multipath >> stuff for Linux for example. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_I/O >> >> I am wondering if anyone among us have been lucky to work extensively >> with SAN and would be willing to share the knowledge. I think we could >> all gain by exchanging experience on the subject, for example on: >> >> - Good practical reference we have come across - be either books or web >> links. >> - Share experience on hardware performance, especially when using >> multipathd and Linux in general. Yeah, I could get that information >> from the white page, but I will be frank and say I do not trust >> marketing department. >> - Any interesting way of gaining experience on the subject without >> parting with thousands of dollars. >> >> Ah, one observation, wikipedia has a very good introduction article on >> it. I especially liked their diagrams. >> >> Regards, >> >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 16:44:49 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | I saw the following recently that explains that (though doesn't | particulary explain *why*) expensive disks can give 10x better | performance than the cheaper disks. | | http://www.dbms2.com/2009/04/28/data-warehouse-storage-options-cheap-expensive-or-solid-state-disk-drives/ That seems extremely odd. I'd really like a better explanation before I accepted it as fact. If error recovery is taking a significant amount of time, amortized across a workload, then something seems wrong. Worst case, sure, but not average case. If it is just normal final adjustment on seeking, that should show up in the specifications and I don't think that it does (but I haven't checked). Do you know more? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 17:36:02 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:36:02 -0400 Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090430173602.GI21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:01:47PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Sounds interesting... > > The one challenge I'd foresee is that there are two perspectives on > this that are quite different in their slants: > > a) Those that are doing "hard-core" SAN work, where maximizing numbers > of spindles is worth paying extra money, and where multichannel > FibreChannel is worthwhile. > > I saw the following recently that explains that (though doesn't > particulary explain *why*) expensive disks can give 10x better > performance than the cheaper disks. Well remember that to access data on a harddisk, the head has to move to the right track (typical 3.5" SATA 7200rpm drive tends to do an average seek in about 10ms or so, which is of course an eternity for a computer), and then has to wait for the sector to rotate past the head (which takes 1/7200 of a second of course maximum, and on average 1/3600 of a second.) The expensive disks running 15000rpm of course half the rotational delay, and tend to be 2.5" as well, which means a shorter seek distance, and often have better head controllers that move and settle faster, and often get the average seek down to the 4 to 5ms range. So for random I/O those should be at least twice as fast as your typical desktop drive. Now some people have found that the desktop drive can have better transfer rates because of higher areal densities and longer tracks (because they are 3.5" not 2.5"), and to get a very fast drive you take a modern 1TB drive for example, and only use the first 10% or so of the disk, which is at the outside (normally) and hence has the highest density of bits per revolution, and by only using 10% of the disk, the head movement now only covers about 5% of the normal distance, and the average seek goes way down as a result. Sure you waste 90% of the disk, but get get a very fast disk as a result. After all if you can reduce the average seek from 10ms to 3ms, and get a higher transfer rate when you do reach the right part of the disk, and you can buy such a 1TB drive (giving you 100GB effective disk) for $130, that's not bad. Compared to a 73GB 15000rpm disk which has a lower transfer rate and similar average seek (but a lower rotational delay, which doesn't matter nearly as much as the seek time), costing probably $200 or $300. Seems wasteful, but its an interesting method. You effectively turn a 1TB 7200rpm 3.5" disk into a 100GB 1.5" drive (except with the transfer rate of the outer part of the 3.5" drive). I wonder if there will ever be common drives with multiple heads to reduce the seek time overhead. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 17:39:23 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:39:23 -0400 Subject: Storage Area Network as a tlug meeting topic In-Reply-To: <20090430173602.GI21464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090430173602.GI21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090430173923.GJ21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 01:36:02PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well remember that to access data on a harddisk, the head has to move to > the right track (typical 3.5" SATA 7200rpm drive tends to do an average > seek in about 10ms or so, which is of course an eternity for a computer), > and then has to wait for the sector to rotate past the head (which takes > 1/7200 of a second of course maximum, and on average 1/3600 of a second.) > > The expensive disks running 15000rpm of course half the rotational > delay, and tend to be 2.5" as well, which means a shorter seek distance, > and often have better head controllers that move and settle faster, > and often get the average seek down to the 4 to 5ms range. So for random > I/O those should be at least twice as fast as your typical desktop drive. > > Now some people have found that the desktop drive can have better transfer > rates because of higher areal densities and longer tracks (because they > are 3.5" not 2.5"), and to get a very fast drive you take a modern 1TB > drive for example, and only use the first 10% or so of the disk, which > is at the outside (normally) and hence has the highest density of bits > per revolution, and by only using 10% of the disk, the head movement > now only covers about 5% of the normal distance, and the average seek > goes way down as a result. Sure you waste 90% of the disk, but get get > a very fast disk as a result. > > After all if you can reduce the average seek from 10ms to 3ms, and get > a higher transfer rate when you do reach the right part of the disk, > and you can buy such a 1TB drive (giving you 100GB effective disk) > for $130, that's not bad. Compared to a 73GB 15000rpm disk which has > a lower transfer rate and similar average seek (but a lower rotational > delay, which doesn't matter nearly as much as the seek time), costing > probably $200 or $300. Seems wasteful, but its an interesting method. > You effectively turn a 1TB 7200rpm 3.5" disk into a 100GB 1.5" drive > (except with the transfer rate of the outer part of the 3.5" drive). > > I wonder if there will ever be common drives with multiple heads to > reduce the seek time overhead. Oh and of course solid state drives (flash based) avoid all the seek and rotational delay entirely and are hence awesome for random I/O, even if they can't always match raw transfer rate with harddisks. You get to pay for it though (for now). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 17:40:07 2009 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:40:07 -0400 Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > HP's 2133 netbook series seems to be very well thought-of EXCEPT that > it uses the Via C7 processor instead of the Intel Atom. So it is > slower and hotter. Oh, and they were expensive. > > HP has ditched the line, I think. They've come out with an Atom-based > model. So the old ones are going for a very good price. See here: > http://h20386.www2.hp.com/CanadaStore/Product.aspx?pdetail=P41462 Wow, That is some price drop! From $1059 to $399. They really are pricing those in the hopes of getting rid of them from inventory in a hurry. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 17:42:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:42:42 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: <49F9BDC6.3080504-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49F9BB9E.3080200@ualberta.ca> <49F9BDC6.3080504@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090430174242.GK21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:03:34AM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote: > On 30/04/09 10:54 AM, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> On 30/04/09 09:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > [snip] > >>> The e260 can work as usb mass storage too, you just have to select >>> it in the setup on the player. If you don't have the option, upgrade >>> the firmware. The latest version has the option apparently. >>> >>> Older models of the w260 can also run rockbox instead of the original >>> firmware, which allows SDHC use (so larger than 2GB cards), as well as >>> support for other file formats. >>> >> >> Rockbox supports the Sansa e260 as well.. that's what I have an it works >> like a charm. > > I think Lennart made a typo.. I think his w260 was meant as an 'e260'; I > just checked on the site and their support for Sansa: Oops. Yes that was supposed to say e260. > "SanDisk: Sansa c200 series, e200 series and e200R series (not the AMS > models)" > > So I guess Lennart was referring to the "AMS models"? I bought mine > about a year ago. The 'V2' hardware apparently is different, but at least with current firmware supports usb mass storage and not just MTS. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 17:43:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:43:54 -0400 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: References: <20090430134934.GH21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49F9BB9E.3080200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090430174354.GL21464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:46:45AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I thought that rockbox didn't support USB yet. That you had to reboot > to the original firmware to load stuff up. Mind you, I haven't > checked the project site for some months. According to what I just read, usb and all works under rockbox now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 19:32:30 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:32:30 -0700 Subject: MP3 player support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a97ef0904301232m237a25bcob849df5982f6d037@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm trying to figure out Linux support for media players. > Unfortunately, I missed Colin's talk about media players at NewTLUG in > January. > > We want to organize a bunch of songs in MP3 form, with playlists. ?The > best players that we have are MTP / PaysForSure: Sandisk Sansa E260 > (with stock firmware) and Creative Zen V. > > (We're hoping to use a player plus amplified speakers as a replacement for > a stationary stereo system. ?So physical size doesn't matter. ?A nice > interface and display would be valued. ?We'd prefer to use one of the > two players we already have so that we can learn how actual use works > out. ?We do think that playlists will be important.) > > > Here's what I think I know. ?It seemed hard to discover. > > Amarok does not support playlists on MTP players. ?They expect this to > be remedied by a Google Summer of Code project. I'm not sure that it can pull playlists off the MTP device, but it definately used to be able to write them to the device. I have a Insignia MP3 player and Amarok was able to dump songs+playlists to the device via MTP (though it did sometimes have connectivity issues depending on the version of the MTP libs). This was about 12 months ago as I haven't changed playlists recently, but it used to work... > > Rhythmbox 2.x does not support playlists on MTP players. ?Rhythmbox > 1.4 did, but that isn't the version that current Fedora or Ubuntu > support. http://live.gnome.org/RhythmboxRemovableMedia > > Gnomad2 does support the Zen V's playlists. ?It's a bit crude and not > being actively developed (as far as I know). > > > We could use a Nokia 770 for this task but haven't thought that > through. > > > I'm not sure, but I think that the iPod support might be better than > the MTP players, even though the iPod is more proprietary. ?We might > break down and buy an iPod. ?I don't actually know what iPod makes > sense to buy. ?Here are some hints but I don't know how to map these > into iPods actually for sale: > ?http://gtkpod.wikispaces.com/Supported+iPods > > > Do you use an mp3 player and manipulate playlists with Linux software? > What player? ?What software? ?How has your experience been? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 20:11:58 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:11:58 -0400 Subject: Need help with 1 tb mass storage device with linux In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <32f6a8880904271716o71a1717h46a68665883b6539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FA060E.5060605@utoronto.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi, Fellow Tlugers > > I need a large external hard disk for back up and its proofing a > little tricky that it need to be. The hard disk will be attached to a > system running Red Hat 5.2. I have already bought two and not having > any lack. > > I currently have a LANTEC NexStar.CX - that is all the labelling it > has, and a 1TB hard disk inside. When I plug it in to the USB port and > power on the drive, the hard disk come up - can tell that from the > sound and LED lighting up, but there is no activity on the host. What > I mean by this is, I can not see a new entry under dev directory, the > dmesg is silent. In all way, its as if nothing was attached. > > I have counter checked by plugging in a flash disk and it get mounted > immediately, so the problem is not on the host side. It must be > something to do with the external drive. Now, is there anything I can > do to force the operating system to be aware of it? > > If there is nothing I can do about the above, does any once have > experience with a 1 TB external drive that works reliably under Linux? > I am fine with both USB2 or IEEE 1394b. Ideally, the hard disk should > be doing 7200 rpm, but would still pick up a 5400 rpm if it work well > with Linux. Any assistance would be highly appreaciated Any luck with your enclosure? Let us know as I'm sure others would be interested in hearing about your findings. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 20:21:59 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:21:59 -0400 Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: <49F9E277.5080601-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> Kevin Cozens wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> HP's 2133 netbook series seems to be very well thought-of EXCEPT that >> it uses the Via C7 processor instead of the Intel Atom. So it is >> slower and hotter. Oh, and they were expensive. >> >> HP has ditched the line, I think. They've come out with an Atom-based >> model. So the old ones are going for a very good price. See here: >> http://h20386.www2.hp.com/CanadaStore/Product.aspx?pdetail=P41462 > > Wow, That is some price drop! From $1059 to $399. They really are > pricing those in the hopes of getting rid of them from inventory in a > hurry. FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system is IMO not worth it. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 20:31:45 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:31:45 -0400 Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: <49FA0867.1090609-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090430203145.GA1869@watson-wilson.ca> >FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The >X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows >little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system >is IMO not worth it. Shameless fanboy-ing My eeepc has no driver problems. It even runs Compiz. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 21:23:46 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: <49FA0867.1090609-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The | X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows | little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system | is IMO not worth it. Thanks for the warning. Others have gotten Linux working on this machine but there appear to be a couple of rough spots: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/HP2133 http://www.hp2133guide.com/ubuntu-distro-for-the-mini-note-minbuntu/ http://extelopedia.wordpress.com/hp-2133/ http://extelopedia.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/hp2133-mini-note/ I cannot tell from these if the video situation is OK. One thing to consider is that Xorg is evolving at a faster rate than Xfree86 did and binary drivers with luke-warm support are likely to force one to stick with old Linux releases at some point. Apparently HP shipped some 2133's with with SuSE. Via has promised open video drivers a few times but they've often been accused of not following through or perhaps not even understanding what they promised. I don't follow this closely enough to know the current status. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 21:32:50 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:32:50 -0400 Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: <20090430203145.GA1869-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> <20090430203145.GA1869@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <49FA1902.6020002@telly.org> Neil Watson wrote: >> FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The >> X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows >> little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system >> is IMO not worth it. > > Shameless fanboy-ing > My eeepc has no driver problems. It even runs Compiz. So? EeePCs never used VIA, they went from Celeron to Atom. I have and love my 1000HE, but VIA C7-based netbooks are a totally different story. What's the fanboy component? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 21:41:07 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: <49FA1902.6020002-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> <20090430203145.GA1869@watson-wilson.ca> <49FA1902.6020002@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: another netbook deal | | Neil Watson wrote: | >> FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The | >> X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows | >> little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system | >> is IMO not worth it. | > | > Shameless fanboy-ing | > My eeepc has no driver problems. It even runs Compiz. | | So? EeePCs never used VIA, they went from Celeron to Atom. | I have and love my 1000HE, but VIA C7-based netbooks are a totally | different story. | | What's the fanboy component? I think it goes like this: He feels he's kind of bragging/off-topic when he says that the EeePC (Intel-based) just works compared with the woe you describe with Via chips. So he's softening it with a self-accusation of being a fanboy. Kind of polite, actually. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 30 21:45:23 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:23 -0400 Subject: another netbook deal In-Reply-To: References: <49F9E277.5080601@ve3syb.ca> <49FA0867.1090609@telly.org> Message-ID: <49FA1BF3.2020405@telly.org> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Evan Leibovitch > > | FWIW, I had been working with a VIA-based netbook that was not HP. The > | X.org drivers for it are proprietary AND flaky, and the company shows > | little interest in making the situation better. Even at $200 the system > | is IMO not worth it. > > Thanks for the warning. > > Others have gotten Linux working on this machine but there appear to > be a couple of rough spots: > One must choose between FOUR different and incompatble video drivers, each with its own set of tradeoffs; proprietary and open source, stable and unstable, some that support video acceleration and some that can't even drive the external VGA. http://www.openchrome.org/trac/wiki/About offers the POV of one of the FOSS drivers' development group. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists