From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 11:23:49 2008 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 06:23:49 -0500 Subject: [OT] Government in action! Message-ID: <493382F5.26109.2223662@sciguy.vex.net> A computer-related nugget from News of the Weird: Facing a state budget crisis in July, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger fired about 10,000 temporary and part-time workers and ordered the 200,000 permanent employees to be paid only the minimum wage of $6.55 an hour until the legislature passed a crisis-solving budget. However, a week later the State Controller John Chiang pointed out that state payroll records could not be changed to accommodate the cut because they were written in the antiquated COBOL computer language, and virtually the only state employees who knew the code were some of the part- timers Schwarzenegger had just fired. [Sacramento Bee, 8-5-08] Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 14:59:50 2008 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:59:50 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? Message-ID: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello all. I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. It's amazing how terrabyte drives are now reasonably priced. Right now the ones that seem to be aggressively priced are the Seagate Barracuda, Western Digital Caviar Black, and Samsung Spinright. Also on the market are entries by Maxtor and Hitachi. Is there a real preference out there? Does any brand really stand out? Do any really fall behind? Reliability, of course, is at least as much a factor as performance, and noise also matters. Any suggestions are welcome. - - Evan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJM/vmB6WWYxnsgmwRAr/+AJ9IMQ1L1xdusrULrLly3QyZuQEOWQCgiSFQ m8sfv3ARccvYN16PahRCxD4= =B6dK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 15:24:22 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:24:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <4933FBE6.8040408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> I wouldn't recommend Maxtor. In both my personal experience and that of servicing other people's PC's, they tend to self-destruct rather badly. Others I've had issues with, but they usually tend to give me a little forewarning beforehand. Seagate is also owned by Maxtor now. Fujitsu I've also seem abysmal ROF with a few years back, and not bought since. It's been awhile since I've bought any new drives, but the last few Samsung drives I got are still kickin' With any brand nowadays, if you want your storage to be safe I recommend backups or a cheap RAID (and some form of SMART-type monitoring so you know if it starts to die) - TJA On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello all. > > I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if > there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. > > It's amazing how terrabyte drives are now reasonably priced. Right now > the ones that seem to be aggressively priced are the Seagate > Barracuda, Western Digital Caviar Black, and Samsung Spinright. Also > on the market are entries by Maxtor and Hitachi. > > Is there a real preference out there? Does any brand really stand out? > Do any really fall behind? Reliability, of course, is at least as much > a factor as performance, and noise also matters. > > Any suggestions are welcome. > > - - Evan > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFJM/vmB6WWYxnsgmwRAr/+AJ9IMQ1L1xdusrULrLly3QyZuQEOWQCgiSFQ > m8sfv3ARccvYN16PahRCxD4= > =B6dK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 16:01:07 2008 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:01:07 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <4933FBE6.8040408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: <20081201110107.d9cc97e6.tleslie@tcn.net> got burnt 2 years back buying 1/2 height seagate's, i think there was even a recall notice (or buy back), unless you need the space savings of the 1/2 height, you gotta figure that probably aids in making the drive a bit more susceptible to heat and such. i also get the drive coolers for any drive i care about. I get the active/passive ones, where the drive goes into the "case" pinning heat fins top and bottom, and has a fan. i think it all boils down to, do you pay say 50% more for a drive classed as a enterprise drive, and also with some history behind it for that model. If your going with a 1.5TB (or even some 1TB), not much history behind them as to failure rate. i know i am in the same boat, about to buy a few 1TB .. i think i will google for any bad press on them, then out of the remaining considerations, go with one that is a bit more expensive that is classes higher then typical home user drive, and then make sure i put it into a good hard drive heat sync. this article (and it might be true), says go with the least platters- http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage/display/20070611122947.html at tiger, Samsung HD103UJ SpinPoint F 1TB Hard Drive - 7200, 32MB, SATA-300 is 100$ more then one of the cheapest Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 1000GB Hard Drive - 7200RPM, 32MB, Serial ATA-300, OEM (i.e. comparing the lesser platter samsung device). wonder what percentage of failures are platter related, as apposed to electronics, motor, etc. and who knows maybe samsungs new technologies will cause more failures else where, yeah, i can see you dilemma, so glad i could help :) -tl On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:59:50 -0500 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello all. > > I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if > there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. > > It's amazing how terrabyte drives are now reasonably priced. Right now > the ones that seem to be aggressively priced are the Seagate > Barracuda, Western Digital Caviar Black, and Samsung Spinright. Also > on the market are entries by Maxtor and Hitachi. > > Is there a real preference out there? Does any brand really stand out? > Do any really fall behind? Reliability, of course, is at least as much > a factor as performance, and noise also matters. > > Any suggestions are welcome. > > - - Evan > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFJM/vmB6WWYxnsgmwRAr/+AJ9IMQ1L1xdusrULrLly3QyZuQEOWQCgiSFQ > m8sfv3ARccvYN16PahRCxD4= > =B6dK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 16:16:46 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:16:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> Tyler Aviss wrote: > I wouldn't recommend Maxtor. In both my personal experience and that > of servicing other people's PC's, they tend to self-destruct rather > badly. Others I've had issues with, but they usually tend to give me a > little forewarning beforehand. Seagate is also owned by Maxtor now. > Fujitsu I've also seem abysmal ROF with a few years back, and not > bought since. > Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no problems. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 16:31:21 2008 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:31:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <49340DEE.8070205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570812010831i93f12dctdd5264239ecefbe6@mail.gmail.com> I'll be building a gaming PC in about two weeks, and everyone I've asked either recommends the WD's or Seagate's 1TB HDDs to me...Hitachi and Maxtor are never mentioned. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:17:49 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:17:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <4933FBE6.8040408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if | there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. Lots of people have opinions. Only a few have a large enough sample size to do a rigorous study (eg. Google) and they aren't talking. The people willing to express definite opinions are probably the ones who jump to conclusions. Anecdote: IBM was a very good builder of hard drives. They blew one generation ("Deathstar") and they didn't know until a *lot* were in the field. Their reputation was hurt so badly that they sold the business to Hitachi (remember: IBM invented the disk drive!). Even in Hitachi's hand's, the reputation sticks. (BTW, the second last drive I bought was a Hitachi to upgrade my ThinkPad; one reason I chose Hitachi was that the drive was replacing a Hitachi.) Henry gave me a couple of the bad Deskstar drives, unused. Apparently there is no recourse at this late date. I think that each generation from each manufacturer is a crap shoot. By the time you have a feeling about a drive, the news is obsolete. Having said that, I am leaning towards the Spinpoint 1T drives at the moment. My basis is chit-chat that I'd not put any stock in if I had real data. The most recent hard drive that I bought was a WD 1T drive in an external package, sold by Dell at a very good sale price. Price was one reason. I needed eSata, and cheap boxes often don't do that. This was a GP disk, using less power (5400RPM, a detail they try to hide) -- the right tradeoff for my particular application (expand a Rogers HD PVR). I've heard bad things about the 1.5T Seagate drives but I don't trust those reports. Apparently there is yet another limit on disk sizes: 2T for SATA, but a common Windows driver bug (signed vs unsigned?) drives that limit down to 1T. I've not done the research to know if those limits are real or come from people who just make stuff up. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:31:40 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:31:40 -0500 Subject: New mouse, left-click is now interpreted as a double-click In-Reply-To: <20081129165325.GA30977-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20081129165325.GA30977@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20081201173140.GL5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:53:25AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have a new Logitech Marble Mouse, and my left-clicks are not being > interpreted as double-clicks. Anyone know how to fix this? Thanks. Why should a single left click be interpreted as a double click? That's a software issue, not a mouse/driver issue. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:36:59 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:36:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <4933FBE6.8040408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: <20081201173659.GM5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 09:59:50AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if > there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. > > It's amazing how terrabyte drives are now reasonably priced. Right now > the ones that seem to be aggressively priced are the Seagate > Barracuda, Western Digital Caviar Black, and Samsung Spinright. Also > on the market are entries by Maxtor and Hitachi. > > Is there a real preference out there? Does any brand really stand out? > Do any really fall behind? Reliability, of course, is at least as much > a factor as performance, and noise also matters. > > Any suggestions are welcome. Well current and past issues on forums for certain seagate drives have certainly made me avoid them. They seem to manage to misunderstand the SATA standard a bit too often. Their current issue with write caching and drives essentially stopping for 30s on cache flush commands is not looking good and their handling of the issue is looking downright awful so far. I liked quantum drives, while some maxtor drives were very unreliable in the past. Now they are one company and I have no idea what they are like now. I have been buying western digital drives myself for a number of years now, and haven't had that many problems. Only a single model seems to have been problematic and was discontinued long ago (the WD1200JS). I have had a few of those fail and have taken the remaining couple out of use for that reason. The other models just work. They are also nice and quiet. I have never used a hitachi drive that I know of. Maybe in a laptop. Not sure. No idea about samsung. Based on experience with samsung monitors and samsung cell phones, I consider samsung a producer of junk. Might not be fair, but that's how I see it. So I don't even consider their harddisks at all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:38:47 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <49340DEE.8070205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081201173847.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 11:16:46AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no problems. Maxtor DiamondPlus8 40GB drives. They will fail. All of them, and all catastrophicly. So that's a few years ago, but still. :) I had an 80GB maxtor die within 4 hours of installing it about 5 years ago. At least it failed before I had actually started really using it. I was still rsyncing data to it when it went. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:40:35 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:40:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Lots of people have opinions. Only a few have a large enough sample > size to do a rigorous study (eg. Google) and they aren't talking. Well put. We've got enough disk drives passing through our disk arrays that those in the know (I'm not one) might have some opinions as to whether the particular brands they're using are any good, but those disk drives are NOT of "desktop grade," so those opinions are likely to be pretty much useless for the purposes of this conversation. > The people willing to express definite opinions are probably the ones > who jump to conclusions. Indeed. I've had deaths of just about every vendor's drives, over the years, as well as good results from just about every vendor. And I haven't got anything even *faintly* resembling statistical usefulness. > I think that each generation from each manufacturer is a crap shoot. > By the time you have a feeling about a drive, the news is obsolete. I agree. Each generation is a significant technology change, and the things that broke with last year's model have almost certainly been fixed, only to be replaced by the problems that occur with the latest technology. Remember: The chemistry *and* the physics of how the surface that holds data work changes with each successive generation. They are using different materials each time, so you can fully expect to see different kinds of failures each time. It's a lot like security and military strategy: Everyone is quite good at preparing to deal with the *LAST* problem, but that means very little when trying to deal with the *NEXT* one. The French Maginot Line is perhaps the most famous example of this; they did an excellent job of fortifying against a WW-I-style attack, but it proved completely irrelevant to the *actual* German invasion. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html W. C. Fields - "I cook with wine, sometimes I even add it to the food." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:44:32 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:44:32 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> Message-ID: <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:17:49PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Lots of people have opinions. Only a few have a large enough sample > size to do a rigorous study (eg. Google) and they aren't talking. > > The people willing to express definite opinions are probably the ones > who jump to conclusions. > > Anecdote: > > IBM was a very good builder of hard drives. They blew one generation > ("Deathstar") and they didn't know until a *lot* were in the field. > Their reputation was hurt so badly that they sold the business to > Hitachi (remember: IBM invented the disk drive!). Even in Hitachi's > hand's, the reputation sticks. (BTW, the second last drive I bought > was a Hitachi to upgrade my ThinkPad; one reason I chose Hitachi was > that the drive was replacing a Hitachi.) > > Henry gave me a couple of the bad Deskstar drives, unused. Apparently > there is no recourse at this late date. > > I think that each generation from each manufacturer is a crap shoot. > By the time you have a feeling about a drive, the news is obsolete. > > Having said that, I am leaning towards the Spinpoint 1T drives at the > moment. My basis is chit-chat that I'd not put any stock in if I had > real data. > > The most recent hard drive that I bought was a WD 1T drive in an > external package, sold by Dell at a very good sale price. Price was > one reason. I needed eSata, and cheap boxes often don't do that. > This was a GP disk, using less power (5400RPM, a detail they try to > hide) -- the right tradeoff for my particular application (expand a > Rogers HD PVR). Well the 5400rpm drive actually has no problem keeping up with USB so for most external enclosures it is fine. For eSATA though, you would notice the difference. They probably expect most people to just use USB and hence not care. > I've heard bad things about the 1.5T Seagate drives but I don't trust > those reports. Apparently there is yet another limit on disk sizes: 2T for > SATA, but a common Windows driver bug (signed vs unsigned?) drives > that limit down to 1T. I've not done the research to know if those > limits are real or come from people who just make stuff up. Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). Might be able to stretch that to 4TB if you created a 2TB partition ending just before the 2^32 sectors, and another 2^32sector partition starting just before, although I am not sure that is a legal partition table. The start offset is 32bit and the size is 32bit, so who knows. Using GPT (EFI style partitions) solves that problem. I currently use that for some 2.3TB array volumes. Of course windows isn't likely to support that yet, so you could have a problem there. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:45:39 2008 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:45:39 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081201173659.GM5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201173659.GM5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081201124539.2c991b65.tleslie@tcn.net> isn't samsung (w.r.t RAM) what everyone else is measured against? as i can recall, they seem to have that going for them. i guess you are looking at their assembly vs. solid state quality. -tl > I have never used a hitachi drive that I know of. Maybe in a laptop. > Not sure. > > No idea about samsung. Based on experience with samsung monitors and > samsung cell phones, I consider samsung a producer of junk. Might not > be fair, but that's how I see it. So I don't even consider their > harddisks at all. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:53:08 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:53:08 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081201124539.2c991b65.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201173659.GM5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081201124539.2c991b65.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20081201175308.GP5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:45:39PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > isn't samsung (w.r.t RAM) what everyone else is measured against? > as i can recall, they seem to have that going for them. > i guess you are looking at their assembly vs. solid state quality. Not sure. Lots of ram makers around. I didn't say it was fair to apply it to other products, just that that was my current impression of them based on the samsung products I had dealt with. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 17:54:58 2008 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:54:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? Message-ID: <200812011754.mB1HswgH058696@gc0.generalconcepts.com> | | I haven't been in the hardware market for a while so I'm wondering if | | there are any real winners or losers amongst hard drive makers. | | Lots of people have opinions. Only a few have a large enough sample | size to do a rigorous study (eg. Google) and they aren't talking. "Disk failures in the real world: What does an MTTF of 1,000,000 hours mean to you?" http://www.usenix.org/events/fast07/tech/schroeder/schroeder_html/index.html from the USENIX FAST '07 conference proceedings. They looked at 100,000 disks of various types/brands. I did not see a conclusion about reliability of different manufacturers. Anecdotal: I believe NetApp uses Seagate drives. Personal: I mirror everything I care about. And make a backup. Cheers John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:13:16 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:13:16 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <200812011754.mB1HswgH058696-KXptd8nw1xHC8fiuoqhjLId3RwegZlz3@public.gmane.org> References: <200812011754.mB1HswgH058696@gc0.generalconcepts.com> Message-ID: <20081201181316.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:54:58PM -0500, John Sellens wrote: > "Disk failures in the real world: What does an MTTF of 1,000,000 > hours mean to you?" > http://www.usenix.org/events/fast07/tech/schroeder/schroeder_html/index.html > from the USENIX FAST '07 conference proceedings. Well 80000 hours seems to be able to cause serious bearing wear on the older ball bearing drives. :) Not a drive failure, but it doesn't sound happy. > They looked at 100,000 disks of various types/brands. I did not see > a conclusion about reliability of different manufacturers. It is usally more of a reliability of a model. No company sets out to make a less reliable drive after all. > Anecdotal: I believe NetApp uses Seagate drives. > > Personal: I mirror everything I care about. And make a backup. I just mirror everything. I value my time, so a reinstall is just a waste of it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:14:08 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:14:08 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: <493176B4.80902-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <20081201181408.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 12:07:00PM -0500, Jose wrote: > I've been trying to find files with the same name, asically Imade > multiple copies when I had these workstations, I got a machine capable > of holding more disk and data, but I need to get a list so I can safely > delete the date from one drive(s) and keep the other, I tried using a > combination of find and du but the ooutput is not helpful. > > Is there any linux rpm or souce to compile utility that may help to do this? Maybe fdupes could help. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:27:36 2008 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:27:36 -0500 Subject: New mouse, left-click is now interpreted as a double-click In-Reply-To: <20081201173140.GL5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20081129165325.GA30977@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20081201173140.GL5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081201182736.GA20680@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:31:40PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:53:25AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> I have a new Logitech Marble Mouse, and my left-clicks are not being >> interpreted as double-clicks. Anyone know how to fix this? Thanks. > >Why should a single left click be interpreted as a double click? > >That's a software issue, not a mouse/driver issue. Maybe so, but changing drivers corrected the problem, and no software was ever changed. For those interested, here is the config for the Marble Mouse, where the middle-click is a left-and-right chord, and the left scroll button, held down allows scrolling with the ball. Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Configured Mouse" Driver "mouse" Option "CorePointer" Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" Option "Protocol" "Auto" Option "Buttons" "4" Option "EmulateWheel" "true" Option "EmulateWheelButton" "8" EndSection -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:51:31 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:51:31 -0500 Subject: New mouse, left-click is now interpreted as a double-click In-Reply-To: <20081201182736.GA20680-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20081129165325.GA30977@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20081201173140.GL5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081201182736.GA20680@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20081201185131.GS5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:27:36PM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Maybe so, but changing drivers corrected the problem, and no software > was ever changed. For those interested, here is the config for the > Marble Mouse, where the middle-click is a left-and-right chord, and the > left scroll button, held down allows scrolling with the ball. > > Section "InputDevice" > Identifier "Configured Mouse" > Driver "mouse" > Option "CorePointer" > Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" > Option "Protocol" "Auto" > Option "Buttons" "4" > Option "EmulateWheel" "true" > Option "EmulateWheelButton" "8" > EndSection That just changes what X does with those button events. The driver doesn't do anything different. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:59:10 2008 From: mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org (Antonio T. Sun) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> Message-ID: test, please ignore. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:44:10 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:44:10 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> Message-ID: <49343E8A.3070606@rogers.com> Antonio T. Sun wrote: > test, please ignore. Will do. Didn't study for it anyway. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:29:55 2008 From: mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org (Antonio T. Sun) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:29:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: finding same files across hardrives References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> Message-ID: [sorry for my previous test mail -- Didn't thought it could pass through] On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Andrei wrote: >> On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 12:07 -0500, Jose wrote: >> > >> > I've been trying to find files with the same name, asically Imade >> > multiple copies when I had these workstations, I got a machine capable >> > of holding more disk and data, but I need to get a list so I can safely >> > delete the date from one drive(s) and keep the other, I tried using a >> > combination of find and du but the ooutput is not helpful. >> > >> > Is there any linux rpm or souce to compile utility that may help to do this?> On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 12:48 -0500, Andrei wrote: >> >> How about something like: >> >> find /dir1 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data1.txt >> find /dir2 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data2.txt >> >> join ./data1.txt ./data2.txt >> >> I think this should give you all the files with the same content (not >> sure how it would handle duplicates though, but I guess it should work) >> > And if you are looking for duplicate names, you could use > > find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0` $0' ... > > however that probably breaks when you have spaces in your names, so you > can try a more "evil": > > find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0 | md5sum` $0' > | ... > > to join by the MD5 of the name. Will run faster, but like someone else > said, searching for same name for deduplication is fairly dangerous. MD5 > search (while getting one or two good-nights sleep :-) ) is probably > better. Personally, I against the idea of finding duplications using MD5 check sums, because creating MD5 is sloooooow. Moreover, if you don't have a lot of duplications, then probably 99% of your time and CPU power is wasted on creating useless check sums. Further more, if there is any remote possibilities of the following cases, then the method is not complete: - Variation in file names. I used to make backups using distinct names, e.g., file.ver1, file.ver2, etc. If you ever backup your files this way, then finding duplications by names won't help much. - Variation in content. Since backups are made over the times, any slightly change in file content will break the MD5 check sum method entirely. if the above cases (remotely) apply to you, you still need something that is more suitable for finding duplications, and it is much faster than creating MD5 check sums. Antonio -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 21:53:21 2008 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:53:21 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> Message-ID: <49345CD1.1040703@totaltravelmarketing.com> Antonio T. Sun wrote: > [sorry for my previous test mail -- Didn't thought it could pass through] > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Andrei wrote: > >>> On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 12:07 -0500, Jose wrote: >>>> I've been trying to find files with the same name, asically Imade >>>> multiple copies when I had these workstations, I got a machine > capable >>>> of holding more disk and data, but I need to get a list so I can > safely >>>> delete the date from one drive(s) and keep the other, I tried using a >>>> combination of find and du but the ooutput is not helpful. >>>> >>>> Is there any linux rpm or souce to compile utility that may help to > do this?> On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 12:48 -0500, Andrei wrote: >>> How about something like: >>> >>> find /dir1 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data1.txt >>> find /dir2 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data2.txt >>> >>> join ./data1.txt ./data2.txt >>> >>> I think this should give you all the files with the same content (not >>> sure how it would handle duplicates though, but I guess it should work) >>> >> And if you are looking for duplicate names, you could use >> >> find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0` $0' ... >> >> however that probably breaks when you have spaces in your names, so you >> can try a more "evil": >> >> find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0 | md5sum` $0' >> | ... >> >> to join by the MD5 of the name. Will run faster, but like someone else >> said, searching for same name for deduplication is fairly dangerous. MD5 >> search (while getting one or two good-nights sleep :-) ) is probably >> better. > > Personally, I against the idea of finding duplications using MD5 > check sums, because creating MD5 is sloooooow. Moreover, if you > don't have a lot of duplications, then probably 99% of your time > and CPU power is wasted on creating useless check sums. Further > more, if there is any remote possibilities of the following cases, > then the method is not complete: > > - Variation in file names. I used to make backups using distinct > names, e.g., file.ver1, file.ver2, etc. If you ever backup your > files this way, then finding duplications by names won't help much. > > - Variation in content. Since backups are made over the times, any > slightly change in file content will break the MD5 check sum > method entirely. > > if the above cases (remotely) apply to you, you still need > something that is more suitable for finding duplications, and it > is much faster than creating MD5 check sums. > > Antonio > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I tried both scripts (thanks guys), but it keeps breaking when it find paths with blanks, like /sdb1/backup/C folder/etc... Basedir breaks, I haven't been able to find a solution to this problem yet, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 21:53:17 2008 From: mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org (Antonio T. Sun) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:53:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> <20081201173847.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 12:38:47 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no problems. > > Maxtor DiamondPlus8 40GB drives. They will fail. All of them, and all > catastrophicly. > > So that's a few years ago, but still. :) > > I had an 80GB maxtor die within 4 hours of installing it about 5 years . . . 3rd to it. a few years ago, my Maxtor died on me just days after the 3- year warranty that I bought! Still, I bought another Maxtor (still going for over 4 years now), because it was the cheapest among all brands, and I can't afford much... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 22:13:24 2008 From: mlist.ats-w1QkCcy0X+BxKfgMtfWJuA at public.gmane.org (Antonio T. Sun) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: finding same files across hardrives References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> <49345CD1.1040703@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:53:21 -0500, Jose wrote: >> more, if there is any remote possibilities of the following cases, then >> the method is not complete: >> >> - Variation in file names. I used to make backups using distinct names, >> e.g., file.ver1, file.ver2, etc. If you ever backup your files this >> way, then finding duplications by names won't help much. >> >> - Variation in content. Since backups are made over the times, any >> slightly change in file content will break the MD5 check sum method >> entirely. >> >> if the above cases (remotely) apply to you, you still need something >> that is more suitable for finding duplications, and it is much faster >> than creating MD5 check sums. >> > I tried both scripts (thanks guys), but it keeps breaking when it find > paths with blanks, like /sdb1/backup/C folder/etc... > > Basedir breaks, I haven't been able to find a solution to this problem > yet, Does my above 2 cases apply to you? Are you just trying to find files with same name and same content? Antonio -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 00:23:07 2008 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <49340DEE.8070205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <988835.29155.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 12/1/08, James Knott wrote: > From: James Knott > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? > > Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no > problems. > Ditto! I've been using Maxtor IDE drives in nearly all my PCs for the last 7-8 years with no issues whatsoever. Salman Ahmed -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 01:16:44 2008 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:16:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081201174432.GO5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> > Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 01:42:17 2008 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:42:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081201173847.GN5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> <20081201173847.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081201204217.e7983a8d.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:38:47 -0500 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 11:16:46AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no problems. > > Maxtor DiamondPlus8 40GB drives. They will fail. All of them, and all > catastrophicly. > > So that's a few years ago, but still. :) I have a Maxtor D740X-6L running on my continuously-on computer since March_2002. No problems so far. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 07:35:20 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 02:35:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel-2RFepEojUI0ct5LIneo90w@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> Message-ID: | From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org | > Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). | | 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. ??? 2^32 = 4G A sector is (usually) 512 bytes so 2^32 sectors = 2TB -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 12:48:11 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:48:11 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST Message-ID: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup Tried all the power off and on sequences. I get no response from keyboard. Any suggestions? (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) Thanks! Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 12:54:48 2008 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:54:48 -0500 Subject: Charlottetown / PEI Linux users / groups Message-ID: <1228222489.15849.12.camel@leon> Anybody have any contacts in Charlottetown and or PEI for Linux users or Linux groups? My quick Google shows only defunct groups from 04 and 06 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 13:35:15 2008 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:35:15 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST In-Reply-To: <49352E8B.3050008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 12/2/08, Stephen wrote: > So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. So, what you're saying is you OS is seriously defective :-) . > The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: > > Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup > > Tried all the power off and on sequences. > > I get no response from keyboard. > > Any suggestions? Start with the simple, double & triple check connections (did the keyboard connector come loose?). If that isn't it, can you switch keyboards and see if another keyboard works okay? > (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) A change to an OS, even one as bad as one of Microsoft's should not explain the errors you note above. More likely we are talking a keyboard issue of some sort. > Thanks! > Stephen Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 13:50:44 2008 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:50:44 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> <49345CD1.1040703@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <49353D34.5090906@totaltravelmarketing.com> Antonio T. Sun wrote: > On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:53:21 -0500, Jose wrote: > >>> more, if there is any remote possibilities of the following cases, then >>> the method is not complete: >>> >>> - Variation in file names. I used to make backups using distinct names, >>> e.g., file.ver1, file.ver2, etc. If you ever backup your files this >>> way, then finding duplications by names won't help much. >>> >>> - Variation in content. Since backups are made over the times, any >>> slightly change in file content will break the MD5 check sum method >>> entirely. >>> >>> if the above cases (remotely) apply to you, you still need something >>> that is more suitable for finding duplications, and it is much faster >>> than creating MD5 check sums. >>> >> I tried both scripts (thanks guys), but it keeps breaking when it find >> paths with blanks, like /sdb1/backup/C folder/etc... >> >> Basedir breaks, I haven't been able to find a solution to this problem >> yet, > > Does my above 2 cases apply to you? Are you just trying to find files > with same name and same content? > > Antonio > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Hi Basically, yes, like I said, copied same data over different drives with different mount points and paths, now I am trying to consolidate the all thing under one single point and properly back up from there. Thanks Jose -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:28:17 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:28:17 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: <49345CD1.1040703-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <1228067308.7924.151.camel@goofz> <1228067724.7924.156.camel@goofz> <49345CD1.1040703@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <20081202142817.GT5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:53:21PM -0500, Jose wrote: > Antonio T. Sun wrote: > >[sorry for my previous test mail -- Didn't thought it could pass through] > > > >On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Andrei wrote: > > > >>>On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 12:07 -0500, Jose wrote: > >>>>I've been trying to find files with the same name, asically Imade > >>>>multiple copies when I had these workstations, I got a machine > >capable > >>>>of holding more disk and data, but I need to get a list so I can > >safely > >>>>delete the date from one drive(s) and keep the other, I tried using a > >>>>combination of find and du but the ooutput is not helpful. > >>>> > >>>>Is there any linux rpm or souce to compile utility that may help to > >do this?> On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 12:48 -0500, Andrei wrote: > >>>How about something like: > >>> > >>>find /dir1 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data1.txt > >>>find /dir2 -type f | xargs md5sum | sort >data2.txt > >>> > >>>join ./data1.txt ./data2.txt > >>> > >>>I think this should give you all the files with the same content (not > >>>sure how it would handle duplicates though, but I guess it should work) > >>> > >>And if you are looking for duplicate names, you could use > >> > >>find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0` $0' ... > >> > >>however that probably breaks when you have spaces in your names, so you > >>can try a more "evil": > >> > >>find /dir -type f | xargs -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename $0 | md5sum` $0' > >>| ... > >> > >>to join by the MD5 of the name. Will run faster, but like someone else > >>said, searching for same name for deduplication is fairly dangerous. MD5 > >>search (while getting one or two good-nights sleep :-) ) is probably > >>better. > > > >Personally, I against the idea of finding duplications using MD5 > >check sums, because creating MD5 is sloooooow. Moreover, if you > >don't have a lot of duplications, then probably 99% of your time > >and CPU power is wasted on creating useless check sums. Further > >more, if there is any remote possibilities of the following cases, > >then the method is not complete: > > > >- Variation in file names. I used to make backups using distinct > >names, e.g., file.ver1, file.ver2, etc. If you ever backup your > >files this way, then finding duplications by names won't help much. > > > >- Variation in content. Since backups are made over the times, any > >slightly change in file content will break the MD5 check sum > >method entirely. > > > >if the above cases (remotely) apply to you, you still need > >something that is more suitable for finding duplications, and it > >is much faster than creating MD5 check sums. > > > >Antonio > > > >-- > >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > I tried both scripts (thanks guys), but it keeps breaking when it find > paths with blanks, like /sdb1/backup/C folder/etc... > > Basedir breaks, I haven't been able to find a solution to this problem yet, Add -print0 to find, and -0 to xargs, and then spaces should be much less of a problem. The use of basename within backticks and such though makes it very hard to deal with the spaces. Now quotes are needed. Perhaps find /dir -type f -print0| xargs -0 -n 1 sh -c 'echo `basename "$0"` "$0"' Not sure since I am not sure what $0 refers to in this case. Usually $0 means application name, but that doesn't make sense here. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:30:55 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:30:55 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081201204217.e7983a8d.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <3a97ef0812010724x69e9b689l83ead083bc48ca78@mail.gmail.com> <49340DEE.8070205@rogers.com> <20081201173847.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081201204217.e7983a8d.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20081202143055.GU5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 08:42:17PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:38:47 -0500 > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 11:16:46AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > > Curious. I've been running Maxtor for years with no problems. > > > > Maxtor DiamondPlus8 40GB drives. They will fail. All of them, and all > > catastrophicly. > > > > So that's a few years ago, but still. :) > > I have a Maxtor D740X-6L running on my continuously-on computer since March_2002. No problems so far. These are 6E040L0510214 and similar. Seemed to be a problem model. I have used maxtors before (like a 213MB) and that was fine. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:31:51 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:31:51 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel-2RFepEojUI0ct5LIneo90w@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> Message-ID: <20081202143151.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 08:16:44PM -0500, jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). > > 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. 2^32 _bytes_ is 4GB. Since sectors are 512bytes each, it is in fact 2TB. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:33:41 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:33:41 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST In-Reply-To: <49352E8B.3050008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081202143341.GW5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 07:48:11AM -0500, Stephen wrote: > So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. > > The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: > > Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup > > Tried all the power off and on sequences. > > I get no response from keyboard. > > Any suggestions? > > (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) Unplug power for 20 seconds or so, and try again. Sometimes helps. Or reset the NVRAM using the jumper according to your motherboard manual. Or perhaps your disk has failed and is holding the controller stuck. Could try another keyboard too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:44:45 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:44:45 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST In-Reply-To: References: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812020644i4873ca96yfbfacf215ab913a4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On 12/2/08, Stephen wrote: >> So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. > > So, what you're saying is you OS is seriously defective :-) . > >> The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: >> >> Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup >> >> Tried all the power off and on sequences. >> >> I get no response from keyboard. >> >> Any suggestions? > > Start with the simple, double & triple check connections (did the > keyboard connector come loose?). If that isn't it, can you switch > keyboards and see if another keyboard works okay? > >> (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) > > A change to an OS, even one as bad as one of Microsoft's should not > explain the errors you note above. More likely we are talking a > keyboard issue of some sort. > >> Thanks! >> Stephen > > Colin. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I remember running into a similar issue (on a laptop, I believe) where windows actually did an upgrade of a driver that then overwrote some firmware on the wireless card. I've never heard of anything writing the BIOS, but perhaps if you have an onboard LAN card or something like that it might have done something with that. Maybe disabling the onboard devices might help as well? To be fair to MS, I think it did mention the firmware upgrade when the driver was selected (but the laptop user had no idea what that meant, of course). - TJA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:48:07 2008 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:48:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: <49319FF4.9000006-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <49319FF4.9000006@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Jose wrote: > Thanks for the script, basically not having tape backups I got to copy the > same files on different hard drives as "backups", but now I have a backup > solution and I would like to consolidate a single copy of the data and > properly back it up Am I missing something? Why do you need to do anything with the old backups? Back up your data as it is now and remove all the old stuff. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 15:18:13 2008 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:18:13 -0500 Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <49319FF4.9000006@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <493551B5.1070500@totaltravelmarketing.com> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Jose wrote: > >> Thanks for the script, basically not having tape backups I got to copy >> the same files on different hard drives as "backups", but now I have a >> backup solution and I would like to consolidate a single copy of the >> data and properly back it up > > Am I missing something? Why do you need to do anything with the > old backups? Back up your data as it is now and remove all the old > stuff. > > For the sake of having my a backup in proper order, meaning I know whare is what when I need it, yes, I still would prefer to consolidate everything before I back it up Regards, Jose -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 15:58:24 2008 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:58:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: finding same files across hardrives In-Reply-To: <493551B5.1070500-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <493176B4.80902@totaltravelmarketing.com> <49319FF4.9000006@totaltravelmarketing.com> <493551B5.1070500@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Jose wrote: > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Jose wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the script, basically not having tape backups I got to copy the >>> same files on different hard drives as "backups", but now I have a backup >>> solution and I would like to consolidate a single copy of the data and >>> properly back it up >> >> Am I missing something? Why do you need to do anything with the >> old backups? Back up your data as it is now and remove all the old >> stuff. >> >> > For the sake of having my a backup in proper order, meaning I know whare is > what when I need it, yes, I still would prefer to consolidate everything > before I back it up I've been trying to figure out exactly what you want. Does this describe it: Your have data in multiple areas, say /path/to/area1, /path/to/area2 and /path/to/area3. Some files may be duplicated in more than one area. You want to move everything to one area, discarding duplicate files. Is that right? If so, create the destination directory (e.g., area51) and: cp -a /path/to/area1/ /path/to/area2/ /path/to/area3/ area51 Now, all the files are in area51 (with the original directory structures retained) and you can delete the originals. Duplicate files will have been deleted (assuming the directory structure is the same in each area). If you want to keep duplicate files for further examination: cp -a --backup=numbered /path/to/area1/ /path/to/area2/ /path/to/area3/ area51 All duplicates (again, assuming the same directory structures) will have a numbered extension. If you want to catch all files with duplicate names, you can copy them to a single flat directory: find /path/to/area1/ /path/to/area2/ /path/to/area3/ -type f -exec cp {} area51 \; To keep numbered duplicates: find /path/to/area1/ /path/to/area2/ /path/to/area3/ -type f -exec cp --backup=numbered {} area51 \; -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 16:05:49 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 11:05:49 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST In-Reply-To: <49352E8B.3050008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49355CDD.7010804@alteeve.com> Stephen wrote: > So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. > > The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: > > Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup > > Tried all the power off and on sequences. > > I get no response from keyboard. > > Any suggestions? > > (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) > > Thanks! > Stephen To echo, somewhat, what Colin said... Simplify the machine as much as possible. Unplug everything except the CPU/RAM/Video/Keyboard and see if it boots to the point of complaining about no boot device. If it does, start adding back until the failure occurs. If it still doesn't, try resetting the BIOS. If you can't get into the BIOS, look for a jumper that is labeled "Clear CMOS" (or similar). This is usually a three-pin jumper with the jumper set to pins 1-2, move it to 2-3 for about ten seconds. If you can't find the clear CMOS jumper, pull the battery and short the terminals for about ten seconds and reinstall the battery. If you still can't POST, you're probably due for an early holiday present. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 20:30:31 2008 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:30:31 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <20081202143151.GV5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> <20081202143151.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49359AE7.5080603@totaltravelmarketing.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 08:16:44PM -0500, jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org wrote: >>> Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). >> 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. > > 2^32 _bytes_ is 4GB. Since sectors are 512bytes each, it is in fact > 2TB. > Personally, I have had problems with Maxtors, Seagates any model never unless the drive was older than 3 or 4 years ago in production mode 24/7, IDE models. I had problems with the old 40GB scsi Seagate models, but I haven't got a problem with the newer ones. I also prefer WD as well for home use. Just my 2 cents Jose -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 02:12:37 2008 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:12:37 -0500 Subject: Linux growth Message-ID: <20081202211237.85cca3d9.tleslie@tcn.net> I always like when i see linux mentioned in articles in the main stream, i.e. http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/12/02/tech-windows.html i went and checked out the "net applications" stat collection company, so they say linux is at 0.83 % and they do claim world wide, but in another article i read regarding them, they seem to be more US based in there data collection, they made reference to gains (in some stats), based on holidays in US, etc, but I would think there stats are not to inaccurate, but we know the some linux users (and i count myself one of them for years), masked the browser id to trick pages into fully thinking it was windows/IE. but all things considered, the real magic number might be 1% of world wide "internet users" use linux? of course factor in people in not well off countries, not on internet as often and that might give linux use % another slight % increaase, but all in all 1% seems to be where we are at now. Factor in servers, and linux would gain a bit more over the others probably, but lets just stick with desktop adoption for now at 1%. so on the page: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpmr=100&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qptimeframe=Y&qpsp=2007&qpnp=1 you see you can look for the stats based on time period, for example, 2007 average % of linux users is: 0.46% 2008 average (i assume to date) : 0.75% and present based on the upswing in Nov: 0.83 now if the use between 2007 and present is 0.39% (2007 average - present), that is 0.39% X 900,000,000(world wide puters) or 3.5M new linux users, that to me would appear to be the number based on new laptop/notebook and dell preinstalled sales (give or take)? make we wonder, is linux use hit a brick wall (with respect to future increase penetration in the market), due to that fact, the geek-set has fully found it by now? and if so, if growth is ONLY now coming from the deployment of HW with it installed, which then means this is the key means to linux adoption going forward. Well, that brings me up to a beef i have of current, and why i think linux distros have to take step back, or figure out a new strategy. I have used ubuntu recently, i used red hat from say 2003-2006 open suse/SLED 2007 and ubuntu 2008 (or something like that), and all though fiesty impressed me, and i installed heron and ibex for my wife, and on portable, i didn't really see to much "oh wow" improvement, which in some sence is understandable. I just installed openSuse11.1 RC1 and i was a bit more impressed with OO 3.0 and a better compiz-fusion coming up by default, and the other reason i am going back and trying SUSE is that ubuntu doesnt cut it as much for a business desktop with a lot of OO docs up, and such, and dual monitor set up. But i like ubuntu for multimedia the best (nothing beats googling for resolving codec shit and stuff like the sheer user base and knowledge base to glean from with ubuntu), and i prefer suse for business desktop. so having said that, i have installed opensuse11.1 and ibex within last couple weeks, and I was not impressed with ibex because: sound didnt work. and flash was flacky. I googled and figured out that the flash app is crap (the default one) and i had to install another, it somehow kills pulse-audio and a set of popular audio cards lead to the screwup. Also, even though its not to bad, you have to fetch a bunch of codec, for pretty common web pages. I also completely locked the machine just turning on some more minor compiz features. With suse, (it is a RC release), codecs and flash were screwed, and only a google to find a pacman repo, and do all that crap, got me to where i wanted to be. anyways, i cant help but think that if getting linux on the HW being shipped is perhaps the only way to further adoption at this point, and that linux distros seem to be developing for "features" more then "absolutely works out of the box with most set ups" priorities, i think it might now be a slower growth curve then I want to imagine. I mean i am glad there is about 10M active desktop users of linux, but if the only way to get more is to have the HW come with it on it, from Dell, and netbooks, etc, linux has got to do a way better job making sure the experience works out of the box. Sure, dell and the netbook corps. can get over these issues, but i am sure they aren't as impressed as they could be, if a typical install, say a person upgrades there DELL desktop to another more recent release of Ubuntu, that its just going to for sure work on the basic web browsing multimedia features. oh, and on open suse, due to tighter patent issues, there codec helper, points you to Fluendo, and then you are left to figure it out on your own, which is disasterous. with ubunutu, you are warned about legality issues (proprietary comments), but then you do seem to get what you want. i guess i am bummed out that we might be stuck at the 1% mark, and are now strictly at the mercy of pre-installed HW sales, for any more growth in the linux market. People have been also preaching for years that most people dont install O/S's so i will believe what they say (i guess), so again seems to me the only way to more people adopting now is get linux like a rock on 99.9% of hardware, screw compiz and pulse audio , and other contless farting around, and nail the 99% core stuff, and dont move ahead, or release a distro until it installs 100% perfect on 99.9% of the hardware out there. Thats would also make it a lot easier for HW companies to offer it as a "option" and not PANIC about pending suppport. -tl -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 17:39:16 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:39:16 -0500 Subject: Linux growth In-Reply-To: <20081202211237.85cca3d9.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20081202211237.85cca3d9.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <1f13df280812030939gab3a1b7m5500791aa4ac7a36@mail.gmail.com> 2008/12/2 ted leslie : > I always like when i see linux mentioned in articles in the main stream, i.e. I think we all do. But any long-time Linux user has been seeing stats like the ones you mentioned for up to a decade, and it's just not worth worrying about. Can you change it? Not by reading the articles, maybe by participating. > i guess i am bummed out that we might be stuck at the 1% mark, and are now strictly at the mercy of pre-installed HW sales, for any more growth in the linux market. Not at all. Consider it a foot in the door. Many people are becoming accustomed to Linux on their netbooks, and when they go to buy a desktop (or more likely a cellphone or laptop) they may request Linux. And so the Linux market share continues to grow, slowly. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 17:51:31 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:51:31 -0500 Subject: can't remove a broken package in Ubuntu Message-ID: <493818A3.6060002@alteeve.com> Hi all, I installed a couple .deb packages trying to get my Brother QL-550 label printer working (and failing). Now I have been unable to remove the package ql550cupswrapper... I keep getting the error: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- # apt-get remove ql550cupswrapper -f Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages will be REMOVED: ql550cupswrapper 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 45 not upgraded. 1 not fully installed or removed. After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y (Reading database ... 138584 files and directories currently installed.) Removing ql550cupswrapper ... /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm: 4: /etc/init.d/cupsys: not found dpkg: error processing ql550cupswrapper (--remove): subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127 Errors were encountered while processing: ql550cupswrapper E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Any idea what I can do to force the removal of this package? I've tried fixing broken packages, but no luck. This is particularly troublesome as I can't install new packages or update the system. Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 18:46:07 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:46:07 -0500 Subject: can't remove a broken package in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <493818A3.6060002-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <493818A3.6060002@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081204184607.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 12:51:31PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > I installed a couple .deb packages trying to get my Brother QL-550 > label printer working (and failing). Now I have been unable to remove > the package ql550cupswrapper... I keep getting the error: > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > # apt-get remove ql550cupswrapper -f > Reading package lists... Done > Building dependency tree > Reading state information... Done > The following packages will be REMOVED: > ql550cupswrapper > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 45 not upgraded. > 1 not fully installed or removed. > After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. > Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y > (Reading database ... 138584 files and directories currently installed.) > Removing ql550cupswrapper ... > /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm: 4: /etc/init.d/cupsys: not found > dpkg: error processing ql550cupswrapper (--remove): > subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127 > Errors were encountered while processing: > ql550cupswrapper > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Any idea what I can do to force the removal of this package? > > I've tried fixing broken packages, but no luck. This is particularly > troublesome as I can't install new packages or update the system. Edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm, and on line 2 put 'exit 0'. It means it won't do whatever it has to do, but in this case it appears you MUST have cupsys installed, to remove this package. Making the postrm script do nothing will let you at least remove the package, although it may not clean up perfectly. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 18:46:52 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: can't remove a broken package in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20081204184607.GX5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <493818A3.6060002@alteeve.com> <20081204184607.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081204184652.GY5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:46:07PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 12:51:31PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > > I installed a couple .deb packages trying to get my Brother QL-550 > > label printer working (and failing). Now I have been unable to remove > > the package ql550cupswrapper... I keep getting the error: > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > # apt-get remove ql550cupswrapper -f > > Reading package lists... Done > > Building dependency tree > > Reading state information... Done > > The following packages will be REMOVED: > > ql550cupswrapper > > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 45 not upgraded. > > 1 not fully installed or removed. > > After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. > > Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y > > (Reading database ... 138584 files and directories currently installed.) > > Removing ql550cupswrapper ... > > /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm: 4: /etc/init.d/cupsys: not found > > dpkg: error processing ql550cupswrapper (--remove): > > subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127 > > Errors were encountered while processing: > > ql550cupswrapper > > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > Any idea what I can do to force the removal of this package? > > > > I've tried fixing broken packages, but no luck. This is particularly > > troublesome as I can't install new packages or update the system. > > Edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm, and on line 2 put > 'exit 0'. > > It means it won't do whatever it has to do, but in this case it appears > you MUST have cupsys installed, to remove this package. Making the > postrm script do nothing will let you at least remove the package, > although it may not clean up perfectly. Or you could add '||true' to the end of line 4 to make it ignore that error and do the rest of the script. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 20:03:17 2008 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:03:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> Message-ID: <39843.192.30.202.20.1228420997.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier : > | From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org > > | > Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). > | > | 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. > > ??? > > 2^32 = 4G > > A sector is (usually) 512 bytes so > > 2^32 sectors = 2TB I apologize. You are correct. On the other hand, MS-DOS prior to MS Windows 95 supported only 2 GB per partition. Did it use only 22 bits of the 32 ? -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 20:32:50 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:32:50 -0500 Subject: OT: Is any hard disk brand better/worse than the others? In-Reply-To: <39843.192.30.202.20.1228420997.squirrel-2RFepEojUI0ct5LIneo90w@public.gmane.org> References: <4933FBE6.8040408@telly.org> <20081201174432.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49712.192.30.202.22.1228180604.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> <39843.192.30.202.20.1228420997.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> Message-ID: <20081204203250.GZ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 03:03:17PM -0500, jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier : > > > | From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org > > > > | > Ehm, DOS style partition table has a limit of 2TB (2^32 sectors). > > | > > | 2^32 sectors is NOT 2TB, it is 4GB. > > > > ??? > > > > 2^32 = 4G > > > > A sector is (usually) 512 bytes so > > > > 2^32 sectors = 2TB > > > I apologize. You are correct. > > On the other hand, MS-DOS prior to MS Windows 95 supported only 2 GB per > partition. > > Did it use only 22 bits of the 32 ? FAT16 used a signed (unsigned on windows NT) 16bit cluster count, with a maximum cluster size of 64k, which meant you could have at most 32768*64K in a single filesystem. Hence 2GB. FAT32 (win98 and I think Win95OEM2) uses 32bit values and hence can have much larger cluster count and at the same time use more sane cluster sizes. Allocating in increments of 64k was not very efficient since on average you waste 32k per file for large files, and for small files you often waste almost 64k per file on the disk. So the 2GB limit was a partition size limit due to the filesystem limitations, nothing to do with partition table limitations (which is what the 2TB limit is). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 21:50:41 2008 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:50:41 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux Message-ID: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> Hi Folks, I'd like to ask your experience with getting a Linux laptop to act as a serial console for a Sun chassis via a USB port. I have shiny new EEEPC that I'd like to use for my data centre trips. I had this in mind. EEEPC Minicom (Is there a better tool?) usb-serial converter (Is there a Linux tested brand or model?) cable (Is this always a null modem?) SUN chassis serial port. I've always found that getting the correct cable or ends if your cable is cat5 is a painful trial and error process. Is there a specific cable that always works? Sincerely, -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 21:56:59 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:56:59 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <20081204215041.GA31362-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I'd like to ask your experience with getting a Linux laptop to act as a > serial console for a Sun chassis via a USB port. I have shiny new EEEPC > that I'd like to use for my data centre trips. I had this in mind. > > EEEPC > Minicom (Is there a better tool?) > usb-serial converter (Is there a Linux tested brand or model?) > cable (Is this always a null modem?) > SUN chassis serial port. > > I've always found that getting the correct cable or ends if your cable > is cat5 is a painful trial and error process. Is there a specific > cable that always works? > > Sincerely, I haven't used a Sun serial port, however: A crossover "null modem" cable is generally required for computer - computer communications. They're standard, buy them at almost any place that sells pre-made cables. USB serial ports seem to be fairly generic. I've tried a couple and they work fine with Linux. Minicom is fine, but I don't think it comes with the Eee. You'll have to find a way to install it yourself. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:01:57 2008 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:01:57 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <4938522B.9050302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:56:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >A crossover "null modem" cable is generally required for computer - >computer communications. They're standard, buy them at almost any place >that sells pre-made cables. What about the end connectors if one uses a cat5 cable. How can the correct ends be identified? >Minicom is fine, but I don't think it comes with the Eee. You'll have >to find a way to install it yourself. No worries, I installed Debian on mine. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:10:17 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:10:17 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <20081204220157.GB31583-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:56:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> A crossover "null modem" cable is generally required for computer - >> computer communications. They're standard, buy them at almost any place >> that sells pre-made cables. > If it uses an RJ-45 connector (CAT5 refers to a cable quality standard, not a connector type), it's often the "Cisco" connection. Those can be found, though not it your typical corner computer store. You can get adapters that connect such a cable to the DE-9 serial port connectors, but you generally have to wire them yourself. > What about the end connectors if one uses a cat5 cable. How can the > correct ends be identified? > Look at the wires in the plug. If they're the same colours at both ends, they're a straight through cable, which can be used. If there are differences, it's likely an ethernet crossover cable. Please note, those 8 pin RJ-45 connectors get used for a lot of different things, besides ethernet or serial ports. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 04:02:03 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:02:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reliability of USB-based filesystems? Lack thereof? In-Reply-To: <20081106174628.GR5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20081105193120.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081106174628.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:46:28 -0500 | From: Lennart Sorensen | > Chris: have you tried EXT2 (I think that EXT3's journalling is a Bad | > Thing for flash)? | | journalling is just fine if the wear leveling works properly on the | device. See this interesting blog entry http://kernelslacker.livejournal.com/2008/12/02/ It too suggests ext2. Off topic things of interest: putting Fedora 9 on Asus Eee PC. Undated: http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/projects/eeepc/ This one is about power usage in his home: http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/projects/power/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 04:21:26 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:21:26 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. Message-ID: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> I have a pair of HP t5000 thin clients I'm looking to put in to a stand alone workstation use. Their both equipped with 44pin apacer ATA flash modules [1]. The problem is the ones with the thin clients are 256mb and 512mb in size. I was hoping to find a local supplier I could purchase two of these in the 2-4 GB range so I could have more breathing room. I know there are plenty of distros target at this level (DSL and puppy linux), and I could also par down Fedora with the appropriate research and a kickstart file. Thanks, -- Scott Sullivan [1] http://usa.apacer.com/us/products/ATA-Disk_Module_(ADM)_specs.htm Module is picture at the bottom of page 2nd from left, top row. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 09:32:42 2008 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:32:42 +0100 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <4938AC46.6080202-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> Message-ID: <4938F53A.1070902@gmail.com> Scott Sullivan wrote: > I have a pair of HP t5000 thin clients I'm looking to put in to a stand > alone workstation use. Their both equipped with 44pin apacer ATA flash > modules [1]. The problem is the ones with the thin clients are 256mb and > 512mb in size. I was hoping to find a local supplier I could purchase > two of these in the 2-4 GB range so I could have more breathing room. > > I know there are plenty of distros target at this level (DSL and puppy > linux), and I could also par down Fedora with the appropriate research > and a kickstart file. > > Thanks, I was playing with an old IBM Thin Client a while back, I used a standard 2GB CompactFlash card. Worked just fine, but I had some trouble making it bootable from a second system. In the end, I had to temporarily connect a CDROM drive to the client in order to load the distro. The really nice thing about the thin client was that the CF card appeared like a proper HDD. No custom kernel or anything required to boot. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 12:21:07 2008 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:21:07 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <49385549.2050200-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49391CB3.3070007@linuxcaffe.ca> James Knott wrote: > Neil Watson wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:56:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >>> A crossover "null modem" cable is generally required for computer - >>> computer communications. They're standard, buy them at almost any place >>> that sells pre-made cables. > If it uses an RJ-45 connector (CAT5 refers to a cable quality standard, > not a connector type), it's often the "Cisco" connection. Those can be > found, though not it your typical corner computer store. You can get > adapters that connect such a cable to the DE-9 serial port connectors, > but you generally have to wire them yourself. we've got cable crimpers etc, at linuxcaffe, and if you get the pin configuration online, we can make one up for you. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 13:16:54 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:16:54 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <4938F53A.1070902-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <4938F53A.1070902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <493929C6.80600@ss.org> Mike Kallies wrote: > Scott Sullivan wrote: > >> I have a pair of HP t5000 thin clients I'm looking to put in to a stand >> alone workstation use. Their both equipped with 44pin apacer ATA flash >> modules [1]. The problem is the ones with the thin clients are 256mb and >> 512mb in size. I was hoping to find a local supplier I could purchase >> two of these in the 2-4 GB range so I could have more breathing room. >> >> I know there are plenty of distros target at this level (DSL and puppy >> linux), and I could also par down Fedora with the appropriate research >> and a kickstart file. >> >> Thanks, >> > > I was playing with an old IBM Thin Client a while back, I used a > standard 2GB CompactFlash card. Worked just fine, but I had some > trouble making it bootable from a second system. In the end, I had to > temporarily connect a CDROM drive to the client in order to load the distro. > > The really nice thing about the thin client was that the CF card > appeared like a proper HDD. No custom kernel or anything required to boot. > Similar Deal with the thin clients I got, (a t5525 & t5710 to be specific), the apacer flash modules sport a 44 pin IDE interface much like you see in laptops, and the BIOS see them as generic hard drives. In theory I would be able to hook up a 2.5" notebook hd to them, but I'd need a cable as the pins are on the mobo and the header is on the module (reverse to a notebook hd). I shouldn't have little issue getting another distro on them, but I'm looking to increase the available diskspace so I don't have to make as many compromises when selecting which on to use. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 13:21:13 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:21:13 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <493929C6.80600-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <4938F53A.1070902@gmail.com> <493929C6.80600@ss.org> Message-ID: <49392AC9.1090304@ss.org> This seems to have been cut out of the thread as I posted it below my signature in the first post, The module in question is pictured at the bottom of page 2nd from left, top row: http://usa.apacer.com/us/products/ATA-Disk_Module_(ADM)_specs.htm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 14:33:27 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:33:27 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <20081204215041.GA31362-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20081205143327.GA5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:50:41PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > I'd like to ask your experience with getting a Linux laptop to act as a > serial console for a Sun chassis via a USB port. I have shiny new EEEPC > that I'd like to use for my data centre trips. I had this in mind. > > EEEPC > Minicom (Is there a better tool?) Not really. Some people like seyon, but I stick with minicom. > usb-serial converter (Is there a Linux tested brand or model?) So far I have had OK luck with a pl2303 based one I bought at canada computers. Worked out of the box with linux. Windows did need a driver installed, but worked fine there too. > cable (Is this always a null modem?) Depends on the pinout of the other device. > SUN chassis serial port. > > I've always found that getting the correct cable or ends if your cable > is cat5 is a painful trial and error process. Is there a specific > cable that always works? The right one always works. The tricky bit is finding out what the right one is. Sun often used 25pin serial ports, where port A was wired normally, but it also had a port B using non standard pins. A special sun adapter would convert the single 25pin port to two seperate serial ports. I would expact a null modem and a 25 to 9 pin adapter would do the job. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 15:52:05 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:52:05 -0500 Subject: Reliability of USB-based filesystems? Lack thereof? In-Reply-To: References: <20081105193120.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081106174628.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081205155205.GB5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:02:03PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:46:28 -0500 > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | > Chris: have you tried EXT2 (I think that EXT3's journalling is a Bad > | > Thing for flash)? > | > | journalling is just fine if the wear leveling works properly on the > | device. > > See this interesting blog entry > http://kernelslacker.livejournal.com/2008/12/02/ > It too suggests ext2. Well ext3 works fine, and only journals meta data by default, which means very little overhead, and a major reduction in the frequency of fsck checks. I only use ext2 for small filesystems like /boot which rarely get written to. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 15:56:15 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:56:15 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <4938AC46.6080202-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> Message-ID: <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:21:26PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I have a pair of HP t5000 thin clients I'm looking to put in to a stand > alone workstation use. Their both equipped with 44pin apacer ATA flash > modules [1]. The problem is the ones with the thin clients are 256mb and > 512mb in size. I was hoping to find a local supplier I could purchase > two of these in the 2-4 GB range so I could have more breathing room. > > I know there are plenty of distros target at this level (DSL and puppy > linux), and I could also par down Fedora with the appropriate research > and a kickstart file. How about one of these: http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/ad44midecf.asp Then you just buy whatever size CF card you want for almost no money. Since that adapter supports DMA, a UDMA capable flash card would be quite fast (I have some here that can easily max out the IDE bus on reads with 32MB/s.) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 15:59:54 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:59:54 -0500 Subject: can't remove a broken package in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20081204184652.GY5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <493818A3.6060002@alteeve.com> <20081204184607.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20081204184652.GY5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49394FFA.2010909@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:46:07PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 12:51:31PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >>> I installed a couple .deb packages trying to get my Brother QL-550 >>> label printer working (and failing). Now I have been unable to remove >>> the package ql550cupswrapper... I keep getting the error: >>> >>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> # apt-get remove ql550cupswrapper -f >>> Reading package lists... Done >>> Building dependency tree >>> Reading state information... Done >>> The following packages will be REMOVED: >>> ql550cupswrapper >>> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 45 not upgraded. >>> 1 not fully installed or removed. >>> After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. >>> Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y >>> (Reading database ... 138584 files and directories currently installed.) >>> Removing ql550cupswrapper ... >>> /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm: 4: /etc/init.d/cupsys: not found >>> dpkg: error processing ql550cupswrapper (--remove): >>> subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 127 >>> Errors were encountered while processing: >>> ql550cupswrapper >>> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) >>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> >>> Any idea what I can do to force the removal of this package? >>> >>> I've tried fixing broken packages, but no luck. This is particularly >>> troublesome as I can't install new packages or update the system. >> Edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/ql550cupswrapper.postrm, and on line 2 put >> 'exit 0'. >> >> It means it won't do whatever it has to do, but in this case it appears >> you MUST have cupsys installed, to remove this package. Making the >> postrm script do nothing will let you at least remove the package, >> although it may not clean up perfectly. > > Or you could add '||true' to the end of line 4 to make it ignore that > error and do the rest of the script. > Thanks, Lennart, I symlink'ed cupsys to cups, and it worked fine. I didn't think to look for the .postrm file, doh! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 17:22:30 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:22:30 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <49391CB3.3070007-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> <49391CB3.3070007@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <49396356.1090303@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> Neil Watson wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:56:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >>>> A crossover "null modem" cable is generally required for computer - >>>> computer communications. They're standard, buy them at almost any >>>> place >>>> that sells pre-made cables. >> If it uses an RJ-45 connector (CAT5 refers to a cable quality standard, >> not a connector type), it's often the "Cisco" connection. Those can be >> found, though not it your typical corner computer store. You can get >> adapters that connect such a cable to the DE-9 serial port connectors, >> but you generally have to wire them yourself. > > we've got cable crimpers etc, at linuxcaffe, and if you get the pin > configuration online, we can make one up for you. > djp The adapters I mentioned are fairly cheap and easy to configure. The crimpers are fine for the RJ-45 end, but not the adapter end. Just determine the correct configuration and wire the adapter accordingly. Then use a standard ethernet cable. Incidentally, if you goof in wiring the adapter, a cheap pin extractor tool is necessary to fix it. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 17:24:36 2008 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:24:36 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <49396356.1090303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> <49391CB3.3070007@linuxcaffe.ca> <49396356.1090303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <493963D4.9030501@linuxcaffe.ca> James Knott wrote: > David J Patrick wrote: >> James Knott wrote: > > The adapters I mentioned are fairly cheap and easy to configure. The > crimpers are fine for the RJ-45 end, but not the adapter end. Just > determine the correct configuration and wire the adapter accordingly. > Then use a standard ethernet cable. Incidentally, if you goof in wiring > the adapter, a cheap pin extractor tool is necessary to fix it. > or deft use of needle-nosed pliers.. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 17:31:03 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:31:03 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <20081205155615.GC5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49396557.8040102@ss.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:21:26PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > >> I have a pair of HP t5000 thin clients I'm looking to put in to a stand >> alone workstation use. Their both equipped with 44pin apacer ATA flash >> modules [1]. The problem is the ones with the thin clients are 256mb and >> 512mb in size. I was hoping to find a local supplier I could purchase >> two of these in the 2-4 GB range so I could have more breathing room. >> >> I know there are plenty of distros target at this level (DSL and puppy >> linux), and I could also par down Fedora with the appropriate research >> and a kickstart file. >> > > How about one of these: > > http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/ad44midecf.asp > > Then you just buy whatever size CF card you want for almost no money. > Since that adapter supports DMA, a UDMA capable flash card would be > quite fast (I have some here that can easily max out the IDE bus on > reads with 32MB/s.) > I've considered the CF option already based on the reason you outline, and it would work well if I didn't have two addition requirements. 1) Sourcing a female-female 44 pin IDE cable to bridge the male pins on the mobo and the pins on the cf-adapter. 2) Not caring about it sitting outside the thin client case as there is near zero room inside it. Thanks regardless as this info will likely be useful for other projects down the road. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 18:06:43 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:06:43 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <493963D4.9030501-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> <49391CB3.3070007@linuxcaffe.ca> <49396356.1090303@rogers.com> <493963D4.9030501@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <49396DB3.9070905@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> David J Patrick wrote: >>> James Knott wrote: >> >> The adapters I mentioned are fairly cheap and easy to configure. The >> crimpers are fine for the RJ-45 end, but not the adapter end. Just >> determine the correct configuration and wire the adapter accordingly. >> Then use a standard ethernet cable. Incidentally, if you goof in >> wiring the adapter, a cheap pin extractor tool is necessary to fix it. >> > or deft use of needle-nosed pliers.. > djp Not quite. The extractor holds down whatever is latching the pin in place. You use it by sliding the tool along the wire & ping, until the pin is released and can easily be removed. If you force the pin out with pliers, you may cause damage. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 18:43:31 2008 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:43:31 -0500 Subject: sun serial consoles via usb and linux In-Reply-To: <49396DB3.9070905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081204215041.GA31362@watson-wilson.ca> <4938522B.9050302@rogers.com> <20081204220157.GB31583@watson-wilson.ca> <49385549.2050200@rogers.com> <49391CB3.3070007@linuxcaffe.ca> <49396356.1090303@rogers.com> <493963D4.9030501@linuxcaffe.ca> <49396DB3.9070905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49397653.8080306@linuxcaffe.ca> James Knott wrote: > David J Patrick wrote: >> James Knott wrote: >>> David J Patrick wrote: >>>> James Knott wrote: >>> >>> The adapters I mentioned are fairly cheap and easy to configure. The >>> crimpers are fine for the RJ-45 end, but not the adapter end. Just >>> determine the correct configuration and wire the adapter accordingly. >>> Then use a standard ethernet cable. Incidentally, if you goof in >>> wiring the adapter, a cheap pin extractor tool is necessary to fix it. >>> >> or deft use of needle-nosed pliers.. >> djp > > Not quite. The extractor holds down whatever is latching the pin in > place. You use it by sliding the tool along the wire & ping, until the > pin is released and can easily be removed. If you force the pin out > with pliers, you may cause damage. > > That might explain why all my adapters are wiggly ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:49:18 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:49:18 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <49396557.8040102-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> Message-ID: <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 12:31:03PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I've considered the CF option already based on the reason you outline, > and it would work well if I didn't have two addition requirements. > 1) Sourcing a female-female 44 pin IDE cable to bridge the male pins on > the mobo and the pins on the cf-adapter. > 2) Not caring about it sitting outside the thin client case as there is > near zero room inside it. > > Thanks regardless as this info will likely be useful for other projects > down the road. Does it currently have any disk inside or anything connected to that port? How about this one then: http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adeb44idecf.asp Same as before, except opposite connector. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:10:13 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:10:13 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <20081205204918.GD5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4939A6C5.3000205@ss.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 12:31:03PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > >> I've considered the CF option already based on the reason you outline, >> and it would work well if I didn't have two addition requirements. >> 1) Sourcing a female-female 44 pin IDE cable to bridge the male pins on >> the mobo and the pins on the cf-adapter. >> 2) Not caring about it sitting outside the thin client case as there is >> near zero room inside it. >> >> Thanks regardless as this info will likely be useful for other projects >> down the road. >> > > Does it currently have any disk inside or anything connected to that > port? > > How about this one then: > http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adeb44idecf.asp > > Same as before, except opposite connector. > That would be a likely candidate, still running into the space issue. The module I'm looking is pictured at the bottom of page 2nd from left, top row: http://usa.apacer.com/us/products/ATA-Disk_Module_(ADM)_specs.htm I posted the above information in my first post, but got cut out in replies as I had put it under the my sig. I then reposted this information in a follow up email that no one seemed to notice. But as you'll see the module is very small, and the pins on the mobo stick straight up out of the board, where the 90 degree pin header on the module meets them. Attempting to put anything else in the thin clients housing would require cutting holes in the side, something I'm desperately trying to avoid. As I noted in the original email, I'm looking at the options for slimmed down's distro, and the OLPC XO provides a nice reference design on how to go about slimming Fedora (my preferred distro). But if I could get those same modules with a greater capacity, it would make the task far simpler. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:27:00 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:27:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <20081205204918.GD5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | How about this one then: | http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adeb44idecf.asp | | Same as before, except opposite connector. Shouldn't the one with the opposite connector come from subractonics.com? Maybe that's a good alternate name for DealExtreme.com. They have a lot of inexpensive stuff. Mailed from Hong Kong (can easily take two weeks). Uneven quality. Fun! http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2720 This says nothing about DMA. One comment suggest that this one is built better: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.00711 A comment claims slow transfers with this, but a reply points out that "no processing is performed by the adapter". What is needed for DMA? Is it at all a function of the adaptor? DX makes a point of mentioning it in describing this adaptor (which isn't the right gender anyway): http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9304 DX also has SD to IDE adaptors. That is a less-trivial operation and so they are more expensive. I imagine that a fast SD is slower than a fast CF. SD is a lot cheaper than CF. I happened to throw in these with my last DX order but haven't even opened the wrapper on them. So I don't know if they are any good: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.00711 http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2720 The silk-screening on 711 mentions DMA. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 15:30:52 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s Message-ID: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04@mail.gmail.com> Many people on this list seem to be big fans of the ThinkPads. RedFlagDeals posted what sounds to be a very good deal today (valid for about a week): http://www.redflagdeals.com/deals/main.php/alldeals/#e36236 One laptop ($570), one tablet ($700), both with 12.1" screens, and very light. Price comes with a low end configuration and XP, but at least it has a Core 2 Duo LV. I'm kind of disappointed I'm not in the market for one now, they look nice. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 18:03:31 2008 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 13:03:31 -0500 Subject: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01c957cc$f3936d80$daba4880$@com> We were issued these recently. They are fantastic. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Giles Orr Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:31 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s Many people on this list seem to be big fans of the ThinkPads. RedFlagDeals posted what sounds to be a very good deal today (valid for about a week): http://www.redflagdeals.com/deals/main.php/alldeals/#e36236 One laptop ($570), one tablet ($700), both with 12.1" screens, and very light. Price comes with a low end configuration and XP, but at least it has a Core 2 Duo LV. I'm kind of disappointed I'm not in the market for one now, they look nice. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 18:08:03 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 13:08:03 -0500 Subject: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493ABF83.7090903@rogers.com> Giles Orr wrote: > Many people on this list seem to be big fans of the ThinkPads. > RedFlagDeals posted what sounds to be a very good deal today (valid > for about a week): > > http://www.redflagdeals.com/deals/main.php/alldeals/#e36236 > > One laptop ($570), one tablet ($700), both with 12.1" screens, and > very light. Price comes with a low end configuration and XP, but at > least it has a Core 2 Duo LV. I'm kind of disappointed I'm not in the > market for one now, they look nice. > > Many people were big fans when IBM made the ThinkPad. However, it appears quality is shipping since Lenovo bought the line. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 14:39:40 2008 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:39:40 -0500 Subject: [OT} Freeze At POST In-Reply-To: <49352E8B.3050008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49352E8B.3050008@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200812050939.40108.dbmacg@look.ca> Do you have any USB devices connected? If so, remove them. On Tuesday 02 December 2008 07:48:11 Stephen wrote: > So my main machine (running XP) needed a reboot after an upgrade. > > The boot is stuck at the BIOS screen where it says: > > Press to switch to POST or to run BIOS Setup > > Tried all the power off and on sequences. > > I get no response from keyboard. > > Any suggestions? > > (This is my upgrade excuse, I think) > > Thanks! > Stephen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 19:17:23 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:17:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Giles Orr | Many people on this list seem to be big fans of the ThinkPads. | RedFlagDeals posted what sounds to be a very good deal today (valid | for about a week): This looks like a very good deal. I suspect that they will be gone well before the week is up. | http://www.redflagdeals.com/deals/main.php/alldeals/#e36236 | | One laptop ($570), one tablet ($700), both with 12.1" screens, and | very light. Price comes with a low end configuration and XP, but at | least it has a Core 2 Duo LV. I bought an x61t this summer. Mine is higher end than the $700 model (larger battery, longer warranty, higher resolution screen, blue tooth, ...). For what it's worth, here are my thoughts. At the price of the x61s, why buy a netbook? - the x61s has a larger screen with more pixels - the processor is a lot more powerful + more speed + x86_64 + virtualization hardware (note: most reasonably-priced Intel-based notebooks don't have this) - x61 supports 4G of RAM; netbooks top out at 2G typically. - The box feels much better built than any netbook that I've tried. I've not tried that many. - I've upgraded the RAM and the hard disk. Not too hard. That isn't true of all netbooks On the other hand, a 7" netbook is qualitatively smaller and lighter (too bad about the bezel). When Intel introduces more appropriate chipsets for netbooks, I think that they will be a lot better. The power used by current chipsets is out of whack. Other things: I'm not sure if battery life is as good as you'd like. Mine has a bigger battery so I cannot say. I don't (yet?) use the tablet capability enough to justify it. This is probably my fault -- I haven't spent a lot of time to make it more useful (eg. fussing with something to make the extra physical buttons work). Maybe it is more useful in Vista. My notebook seems heavier than I had hoped. The large battery is partly to blame. I suspect (don't know) that the tablet capability adds weight. Installing Linux was mostly easy. Lots of others have already done it. I like the trackpoint mouse-substitute much better than I expected, but I had fairly low expectations. My (adult) kids both prefer trackpoints. The screen isn't as bright as I'd like. I don't know if that is because: - I've not adjusted it properly in Linux - the provision for stylus sensing (a coating?) makes it dimmer - my particular unit is defective Dealing with Lenovo was pretty bad. They shipped the wrong notebook to me not once, but twice! It took weeks to get the right one. Actually, they took my order but oversold that model so they gave me a much better one instead (x60t became an x61t); that was sorted out before the first (wrong) shipment. So some of their mistakes are in the customers favour -- they are not evil, just inefficient. I found that I was ordering from a call centre a few hundred metres from my home. I didn't even know that it existed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 01:37:47 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:37:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cheap(?) Lenovo X61s In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280812060730g2f010fb6k2630d35685f5c04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | I suspect that they will be gone well before the week is up. Apparently they went by 14:40 today. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 16:49:00 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:49:00 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <4939A6C5.3000205-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4939A6C5.3000205@ss.org> Message-ID: <20081208164900.GE5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 05:10:13PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > That would be a likely candidate, still running into the space issue. > The module I'm looking is pictured at the bottom of page 2nd from left, > top row: > http://usa.apacer.com/us/products/ATA-Disk_Module_(ADM)_specs.htm Those are of course a proprietary design, while a CF adapter lets you use whatever cheap CF card you ever want. > I posted the above information in my first post, but got cut out in > replies as I had put it under the my sig. I then reposted this > information in a follow up email that no one seemed to notice. But as > you'll see the module is very small, and the pins on the mobo stick > straight up out of the board, where the 90 degree pin header on the > module meets them. Attempting to put anything else in the thin clients > housing would require cutting holes in the side, something I'm > desperately trying to avoid. > > As I noted in the original email, I'm looking at the options for slimmed > down's distro, and the OLPC XO provides a nice reference design on how > to go about slimming Fedora (my preferred distro). But if I could get > those same modules with a greater capacity, it would make the task far > simpler. Well a 16GB CF card runs about $100 as far as I can tell. 32 and 64GB cards also exist. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 16:54:31 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:54:31 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20081208165431.GF5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 05:27:00PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Shouldn't the one with the opposite connector come from > subractonics.com? Yeah maybe. > Maybe that's a good alternate name for DealExtreme.com. They have a > lot of inexpensive stuff. Mailed from Hong Kong (can easily take two > weeks). Uneven quality. Fun! > > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2720 > > This says nothing about DMA. > > One comment suggest that this one is built better: > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.00711 > > A comment claims slow transfers with this, but a reply points out that > "no processing is performed by the adapter". > > What is needed for DMA? Is it at all a function of the adaptor? DX > makes a point of mentioning it in describing this adaptor (which isn't > the right gender anyway): > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9304 DMA requires that the DMA request and ack pins are connected from the ide port to the CF card. On older CF specs, the pins were reserved but on newer spec cards the two pins are now DMA control. If you use a card with DMA on a controller with DMA support using an adapter without DMA support, you will get a lot of problems since they will negotiate to use DMA and then fail to do so (with lots of DMA timeout errors from the kernel). One would have to boot with ide=nodma to avoid the problem but also get much lower performance. > DX also has SD to IDE adaptors. That is a less-trivial operation and > so they are more expensive. I imagine that a fast SD is slower than a > fast CF. SD is a lot cheaper than CF. Sure. SD is a high speed serial interface. CF is IDE. > I happened to throw in these with my last DX order but haven't even > opened the wrapper on them. So I don't know if they are any good: > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.00711 > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2720 > > The silk-screening on 711 mentions DMA. Always good. All it requires is the two traces to be connected so there is no reason not to do it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 17:54:46 2008 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <20081208164900.GE5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4939A6C5.3000205@ss.org> <20081208164900.GE5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <493D5F66.8080503@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 05:10:13PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > >> That would be a likely candidate, still running into the space issue. >> The module I'm looking is pictured at the bottom of page 2nd from left, >> top row: >> http://usa.apacer.com/us/products/ATA-Disk_Module_(ADM)_specs.htm >> > > Those are of course a proprietary design, while a CF adapter lets you > use whatever cheap CF card you ever want. > I agree with the concept, but maybe these days it's a better idea to consider SDHC rather than CF cards, given that SDHC cards are showing up in higher capacities and lower cost/GB thanks to their popularity in devices such as camcorders. Something such as http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adidesd.asp (without the enclosure) or http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewxqCnNouVamUg/SD-to-IDE-Converter.html or http://cgi.ebay.com/SDHC-SD-MMC-3-5-Desktop-IDE-HDD-SSD-adapter-mini-ITX_W0QQitemZ370126235437QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Cables_Adapters?hash=item370126235437&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 Anyway, you get the idea. The adaptors are out there. >> As I noted in the original email, I'm looking at the options for slimmed >> down's distro, and the OLPC XO provides a nice reference design on how >> to go about slimming Fedora (my preferred distro). But if I could get >> those same modules with a greater capacity, it would make the task far >> simpler. >> > > Well a 16GB CF card runs about $100 as far as I can tell. 32 and 64GB > cards also exist. > If going SDHC, decent speed 16GB can easily be had locally for under $50 (with the lowest at $36) and is big enough to hold the most bloated Linux distribution. Right now that seems to be the sweet spot because 32GB cards are much harder to find and in the $200-250 range. And, of course, one other alternative is to use a regular SSD that's configured to talk directly to the IDE interface, using a form factor resembling (and mounting like) a regular (2.5") hard disk. Those range from $100 for 32GB to $400-500 for 128MB. I'm not yet aware of a 64MB CF or SDHC card in wide public availability. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 19:40:30 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:40:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <493929C6.80600-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <4938F53A.1070902@gmail.com> <493929C6.80600@ss.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2008, Scott Sullivan wrote: > Similar Deal with the thin clients I got, (a t5525 & t5710 to be specific), > the apacer flash modules sport a 44 pin IDE interface much like you see in > laptops, and the BIOS see them as generic hard drives. In theory I would be > able to hook up a 2.5" notebook hd to them, but I'd need a cable as the pins > are on the mobo and the header is on the module (reverse to a notebook hd). > I shouldn't have little issue getting another distro on them, but I'm looking > to increase the available diskspace so I don't have to make as many > compromises when selecting which on to use. An alternative (apart from actually using them as thin clients) is to boot them as "network computers". All filesystems are available over the network (typically a _local_ network) but processing (running apps, etc) is done locally. A key advantage here is reduced management overhead. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:46:14 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:46:14 -0500 Subject: Seeking local source for thin-client IDE flash modules. In-Reply-To: <493D5F66.8080503-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4938AC46.6080202@ss.org> <20081205155615.GC5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49396557.8040102@ss.org> <20081205204918.GD5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4939A6C5.3000205@ss.org> <20081208164900.GE5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <493D5F66.8080503@telly.org> Message-ID: <20081208234614.GG5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 12:54:46PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I agree with the concept, but maybe these days it's a better idea to > consider SDHC rather than CF cards, given that SDHC cards are showing up > in higher capacities and lower cost/GB thanks to their popularity in > devices such as camcorders. CF _is_ IDE. SD isn't. CF isn't going anywhere. It is very widely in use. > Something such as > http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adidesd.asp > (without the enclosure) > or > http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewxqCnNouVamUg/SD-to-IDE-Converter.html > or > http://cgi.ebay.com/SDHC-SD-MMC-3-5-Desktop-IDE-HDD-SSD-adapter-mini-ITX_W0QQitemZ370126235437QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Cables_Adapters?hash=item370126235437&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 > > Anyway, you get the idea. The adaptors are out there. > > If going SDHC, decent speed 16GB can easily be had locally for under $50 > (with the lowest at $36) and is big enough to hold the most bloated > Linux distribution. Right now that seems to be the sweet spot because > 32GB cards are much harder to find and in the $200-250 range. I am not sure what SD cards do for wear leveling. CF by being IDE interface has to do wear leveling sufficiently well to be treated as a generic disk (and generally they do, while SD often does not since it is mainly used by cameras to write large files sonsequtively). > And, of course, one other alternative is to use a regular SSD that's > configured to talk directly to the IDE interface, using a form factor > resembling (and mounting like) a regular (2.5") hard disk. Those range > from $100 for 32GB to $400-500 for 128MB. > > I'm not yet aware of a 64MB CF or SDHC card in wide public availability. They are around I believe, but a bit hard to find. 16GB is easy to find. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:18:16 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rogers Internet Stick (RIS) Message-ID: Hi all. As promised here are my instructions for getting the RIS workinger under Linux. http://www.timetraveller.org/rogers/ Sorry I didn't get this out before but "real life" was consuming quite a bit of time. Thanks for the nudge from a GTALUG member :) Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:41:43 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:41:43 -0500 Subject: Rogers Internet Stick (RIS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493EC9F7.50905@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi all. As promised here are my instructions for getting the RIS > workinger under Linux. > > http://www.timetraveller.org/rogers/ > > Sorry I didn't get this out before but "real life" was consuming quite > a bit of time. Thanks for the nudge from a GTALUG member :) > > Rob > Perhaps, after this is finished, Rogers might be interested in it. Some of their techs run Linux. Maybe they could include it in their FAQ as an unsupported option. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:44:00 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:44:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rogers Internet Stick (RIS) In-Reply-To: <493EC9F7.50905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <493EC9F7.50905@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, James Knott wrote: > Perhaps, after this is finished, Rogers might be interested in it. Some > of their techs run Linux. Maybe they could include it in their FAQ as an > unsupported option. Not a bad idea. The page now includes all the important details but I'll update it as I automate the process and clean up a few things. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 06:31:44 2008 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:31:44 -0500 Subject: CouchDB Code Snippets and Presentation. Message-ID: <05421151-A3DF-4F86-B6AD-E609A4CC075F@mylesbraithwaite.com> Checkout http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Talk:Meetings:2008-12 to see some code snippets and my presentation. --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ Please consider the trees before print this email. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:41:10 2008 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:41:10 -0500 Subject: CouchDB Code Snippets and Presentation. In-Reply-To: <05421151-A3DF-4F86-B6AD-E609A4CC075F-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <05421151-A3DF-4F86-B6AD-E609A4CC075F@mylesbraithwaite.com> Message-ID: <493FD506.3020607@linuxcaffe.ca> Myles Braithwaite wrote: > Checkout http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Talk:Meetings:2008-12 to see some code > snippets and my presentation. I'm sorry to have missed your presentation, and after reviewing your most excellent notes I can see that it was both informative AND entertaining. Brilliant work and thank you ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:57:37 2008 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:57:37 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Teacher_tells_students_Linux_is_=E2=80=9Cil?= =?UTF-8?Q?legal=E2=80=9D_and_confiscates_their_copies?= Message-ID: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is taken from another story pointing to the blog: "...observed one of my students with a group of other children gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those receiving them..." http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From unforgiven24-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 16:25:32 2008 From: unforgiven24-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Ward) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:25:32 -0500 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_:_Teacher_tells_students_Linux_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?is_=93illegal=94_and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. - Mike On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the > blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is > taken from another story pointing to the blog: > > "...observed one of my students with a group of other children > gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was > giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the > ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating > the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came > to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you > strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support > your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I > am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and > spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to > adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time > allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I > will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many > others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you > make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your > attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but > putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. > > This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and > putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping > these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they > would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison > of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service > to those receiving them..." > > > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:16:31 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:16:31 -0500 Subject: Odd DNS issue just now In-Reply-To: <494010F2.2000804-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494010F2.2000804@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4940158F.4000003@ss.org> I experienced this, although I didn't check the dns messages personally. There was a period around the time you mention that I could only get pages to if I did them one at a time. (I had opened firefox and it tried to load the 12 tabs I had from my last session). But it's all working now. Madison Kelly wrote: > Was wondering if anyone else just had some strange DNS issues? > > Querying for several domains, including google.ca and google.com, > returned answers like this: > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > $ dig google.ca @204.101.251.1 > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> google.ca @204.101.251.1 > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 41733 > ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;google.ca. IN A > > ;; Query time: 79 msec > ;; SERVER: 204.101.251.1#53(204.101.251.1) > ;; WHEN: Wed Dec 10 13:43:03 2008 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Notice the empty A record? I tried against My DNS servers, Interlink's > DNS servers and against a couple of Bell's DNS servers and got the > same results. > > After about ten minutes it all came back fine. Curious how widespread > this was, if at all. > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:49:05 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:49:05 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BTLUG=5D=3A_Teacher_tells_stude?= =?windows-1252?Q?nts_Linux_is_=93illegal=94_and_confiscates_?= =?windows-1252?Q?their_copies?= In-Reply-To: <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> Some people really are that clueless. I suppose that teacher thought he was stopping software "piracy". Mike Ward wrote: > This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. > > - Mike > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon > wrote: > > Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the > blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is > taken from another story pointing to the blog: > > "...observed one of my students with a group of other children > gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was > giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the > ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating > the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came > to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you > strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support > your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I > am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and > spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to > adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time > allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I > will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many > others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you > make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your > attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but > putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. > > This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and > putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping > these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they > would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison > of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service > to those receiving them..." > > > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:32:55 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:32:55 -0500 Subject: Odd DNS issue just now In-Reply-To: <4940158F.4000003-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <494010F2.2000804@alteeve.com> <4940158F.4000003@ss.org> Message-ID: <49401967.9000001@alteeve.com> Scott Sullivan wrote: > I experienced this, although I didn't check the dns messages personally. > There was a period around the time you mention that I could only get > pages to if I did them one at a time. (I had opened firefox and it tried > to load the 12 tabs I had from my last session). But it's all working now. Looks like it's down again, what about your end? ---- They just came back up as I write this. --- Madi PS - I know my DNS server is up, I can get responses for domains it's SOA of. $ dig +trace google.ca ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> +trace google.ca ;; global options: printcmd . 518399 IN NS M.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS B.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS C.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS D.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS E.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS F.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS H.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS I.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS J.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS K.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 518399 IN NS L.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. ;; Received 500 bytes from 192.139.81.119#53(192.139.81.119) in 48 ms ca. 172800 IN NS TLD2.ULTRADNS.NET. ca. 172800 IN NS CA05.CIRA.ca. ca. 172800 IN NS CA06.CIRA.ca. ca. 172800 IN NS TLD3.ULTRADNS.ORG. ca. 172800 IN NS TLD1.ULTRADNS.NET. ca. 172800 IN NS CA02.CIRA.ca. ca. 172800 IN NS NS-EXT.ISC.ORG. ca. 172800 IN NS CA04.CIRA.ca. ca. 172800 IN NS CA03.CIRA.ca. ca. 172800 IN NS CA01.CIRA.ca. ;; Received 468 bytes from 192.112.36.4#53(G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) in 73 ms google.ca. 86400 IN NS ns3.google.com. google.ca. 86400 IN NS ns4.google.com. google.ca. 86400 IN NS ns1.google.com. google.ca. 86400 IN NS ns2.google.com. ;; Received 109 bytes from 129.33.164.73#53(CA05.CIRA.ca) in 10102 ms ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:30:32 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:30:32 -0500 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_:_Teacher_tells_students_Linux_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?is_=93illegal=94_and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812101130v5244093ex4de1e133547bb86a@mail.gmail.com> I saw this on slashdot as well. It doesn't mention the full name or school of the teacher involved. Apparently "Helios" has been known to pull odd publicity stunts in the past as well. Personally, I'd hate to see that somebody could be so ignorant, but experience has taught me that it's definately possible. - TJA On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:25 AM, Mike Ward wrote: > This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. > > - Mike > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: >> >> Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the >> blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is >> taken from another story pointing to the blog: >> >> "...observed one of my students with a group of other children >> gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was >> giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the >> ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating >> the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came >> to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you >> strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support >> your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I >> am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and >> spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to >> adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time >> allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I >> will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many >> others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you >> make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your >> attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but >> putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. >> >> This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and >> putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping >> these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they >> would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison >> of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service >> to those receiving them..." >> >> >> >> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html >> >> -- >> Sincerely, >> >> Michael Lauzon >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:56:50 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:56:50 -0500 Subject: Odd DNS issue just now Message-ID: <494010F2.2000804@alteeve.com> Was wondering if anyone else just had some strange DNS issues? Querying for several domains, including google.ca and google.com, returned answers like this: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- $ dig google.ca @204.101.251.1 ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> google.ca @204.101.251.1 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 41733 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;google.ca. IN A ;; Query time: 79 msec ;; SERVER: 204.101.251.1#53(204.101.251.1) ;; WHEN: Wed Dec 10 13:43:03 2008 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Notice the empty A record? I tried against My DNS servers, Interlink's DNS servers and against a couple of Bell's DNS servers and got the same results. After about ten minutes it all came back fine. Curious how widespread this was, if at all. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mikesi-ft1kE4FQKTmJ6jDlghZswwC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:34:05 2008 From: mikesi-ft1kE4FQKTmJ6jDlghZswwC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Mike Sillers) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:05 -0500 Subject: function keys on the console in text Message-ID: I've just run into a new issues that I'm looking for ideas to resolve. It seems when I connect to a Linux workstation using the secure shell, I can use the function keys (specifically F1 to F4). If I am sitting at the console, the function keys return A, B, C and D respectively. I'm trying to set up an old computer as a workstation using ttylinux to connect to a UNIX server. I think it is using a 2.4 kernel. I've tried other flavours and a 2.6 kernel and they seem to exhibit the same behaviour and GUI is not an option here. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:44:07 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:44:07 -0500 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_:_Re:_[TLUG]:_Teacher_tells_students_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Linux_is_=93illegal=94_and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: <49400F21.5090009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> Seems to me that if she kept the kid's disks that it might be construed as "theft" ... ? On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:49 PM, James Knott wrote: > Some people really are that clueless. I suppose that teacher thought he was > stopping software "piracy". > > Mike Ward wrote: >> >> This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. >> >> - Mike >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon > > wrote: >> >> Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the >> blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is >> taken from another story pointing to the blog: >> >> "...observed one of my students with a group of other children >> gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was >> giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the >> ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating >> the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came >> to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you >> strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support >> your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I >> am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and >> spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to >> adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time >> allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I >> will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many >> others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you >> make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your >> attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but >> putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. >> >> This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and >> putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping >> these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they >> would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison >> of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service >> to those receiving them..." >> >> >> >> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html >> >> -- >> Sincerely, >> >> Michael Lauzon >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:50:53 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:50:53 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is ?illegal? and confiscates their copies In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0812101130v5244093ex4de1e133547bb86a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0812101130v5244093ex4de1e133547bb86a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081210145053.y5m5gomaokkcw80s@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org --------- > Apparently "Helios" has been known to > pull odd publicity stunts in the past as well. I don't know anything about Helios, can you point to examples of the publicity stunts? (I'm very interested in the use of free software in the public service and would like to keep on top of this one.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 20:12:51 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is ?illegal? and confiscates their copies In-Reply-To: <20081210145053.y5m5gomaokkcw80s-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0812101130v5244093ex4de1e133547bb86a@mail.gmail.com> <20081210145053.y5m5gomaokkcw80s@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812101212m68266143te47e8860e811f3b9@mail.gmail.com> This is what I've been reading from the comments on the site and in the slashdot article. Of course the situation might be true and he's just hamming it up too (which isn't a bad thing, as ignorance of that nature in the teaching system benefits nobody). On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org --------- > >> Apparently "Helios" has been known to >> pull odd publicity stunts in the past as well. > > I don't know anything about Helios, can you point to examples of the > publicity stunts? > > (I'm very interested in the use of free software in the public service and > would like to keep on top of this one.) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 21:09:44 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:09:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [GW-C]Odd DNS issue just now In-Reply-To: <494010F2.2000804-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494010F2.2000804@alteeve.com> Message-ID: | From: Madison Kelly | $ dig google.ca @204.101.251.1 The dig(1) synopsis suggests this should be dig @204.101.251.1 google.ca It seems to accept what you typed. That IP is of a Sympatico DNS server. | ;<<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> google.ca @204.101.251.1 | ;; global options: printcmd | ;; Got answer: | ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 41733 | ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 | ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available That doesn't sound right. Recursion means that the server is to do the DNS tree walking for you. You probably need that. (I gave up on Rogers DNS server and have my own server walk the tree.) | ;; QUESTION SECTION: | ;google.ca. IN A This is the question section, and this is what the query should look like. But: the Answer, Authority, and Additional sections are missing. This means that the query resulted in no information. | ;; Query time: 79 msec | ;; SERVER: 204.101.251.1#53(204.101.251.1) | ;; WHEN: Wed Dec 10 13:43:03 2008 | ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | | Notice the empty A record? I tried against My DNS servers, Interlink's DNS | servers and against a couple of Bell's DNS servers and got the same results. | | After about ten minutes it all came back fine. Curious how widespread this | was, if at all. Here's what my server said: ; <<>> DiG 9.3.4-P1 <<>> google.ca ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 56970 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 3, AUTHORITY: 4, ADDITIONAL: 4 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;google.ca. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: google.ca. 1057 IN A 72.14.207.104 google.ca. 1057 IN A 64.233.161.104 google.ca. 1057 IN A 64.233.187.104 ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: google.ca. 193223 IN NS ns3.google.com. google.ca. 193223 IN NS ns4.google.com. google.ca. 193223 IN NS ns1.google.com. google.ca. 193223 IN NS ns2.google.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.google.com. 122818 IN A 216.239.32.10 ns2.google.com. 122818 IN A 216.239.34.10 ns3.google.com. 122818 IN A 216.239.36.10 ns4.google.com. 122818 IN A 216.239.38.10 ;; Query time: 22 msec ;; SERVER: ____________________ ;; WHEN: Wed Dec 10 15:59:37 2008 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 221 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 21:43:41 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:43:41 -0500 Subject: function keys on the console in text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4940380D.1030309@rogers.com> Mike Sillers wrote: > > I?ve just run into a new issues that I?m looking for ideas to resolve. > It seems when I connect to a Linux workstation using the secure shell, > I can use the function keys (specifically F1 to F4). If I am sitting > at the console, the function keys return A, B, C and D respectively. > I?m trying to set up an old computer as a workstation using ttylinux > to connect to a UNIX server. I think it is using a 2.4 kernel. I?ve > tried other flavours and a 2.6 kernel and they seem to exhibit the > same behaviour and GUI is not an option here. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > > > Thanks. > > > > //Mike// > Why is this a problem? Don't forget, when you are sitting at the computer console, you can do things, such as switch "consoles", that you can't do via ssh. You shouldn't be expecting them to behave the same, because they are not the same thing. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 21:48:00 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:48:00 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BTLUG=5D=3A_Re=3A_=5BTLUG=5D=3A_T?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?eacher_tells_students_Linux_is_=22illegal=22_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49403910.5050607@rogers.com> If she confiscated a knife, would it also be theft? However, if something is confiscated, it should be returned later or given to the principal/parent/police as appropriate. Tyler Aviss wrote: > Seems to me that if she kept the kid's disks that it might be > construed as "theft" ... ? > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:49 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Some people really are that clueless. I suppose that teacher thought he was >> stopping software "piracy". >> >> Mike Ward wrote: >> >>> This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. >>> >>> - Mike >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon >> > wrote: >>> >>> Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from the >>> blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message is >>> taken from another story pointing to the blog: >>> >>> "...observed one of my students with a group of other children >>> gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was >>> giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the >>> ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating >>> the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came >>> to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you >>> strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support >>> your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I >>> am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and >>> spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to >>> adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time >>> allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I >>> will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many >>> others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you >>> make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your >>> attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but >>> putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. >>> >>> This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and >>> putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping >>> these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they >>> would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison >>> of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service >>> to those receiving them..." >>> >>> >>> >>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html >>> >>> -- >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Michael Lauzon >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Use OpenOffice.org >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > > > > -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mikesi-ft1kE4FQKTmJ6jDlghZswwC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:10:27 2008 From: mikesi-ft1kE4FQKTmJ6jDlghZswwC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Mike Sillers) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:10:27 -0500 Subject: function keys on the console in text Message-ID: >Mike Sillers wrote: >> >> I've just run into a new issues that I'm looking for ideas to resolve. >> It seems when I connect to a Linux workstation using the secure shell, >> I can use the function keys (specifically F1 to F4). If I am sitting >> at the console, the function keys return A, B, C and D respectively. >> I'm trying to set up an old computer as a workstation using ttylinux >> to connect to a UNIX server. I think it is using a 2.4 kernel. I've >> tried other flavours and a 2.6 kernel and they seem to exhibit the >> same behaviour and GUI is not an option here. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any ideas? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> //Mike// >> Jame Knott wrote: > > Why is this a problem? Don't forget, when you are sitting at the > computer console, you can do things, such as switch "consoles", that you > can't do via ssh. You shouldn't be expecting them to behave the same, > because they are not the same thing. > Yes, I am able to switch consoles. Unfortunately, the application we are running requires F1 to F4. Maybe we can set up ssh (how we are connecting to the remote server) to map the function keys. We're experimenting with dropbear ssh client but I haven't found anyway to fix the function key problem here either. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:08:57 2008 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:08:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is "illegal" and confiscates In-Reply-To: <49403910.5050607-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> <49403910.5050607@rogers.com> Message-ID: <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Maybe the idea of 'the first one is free' reminded her of drug dealers. Once the kid gets hooked on Linux, you charge him for something big time. Upgrades? Bug fixes? Since that's the Microsoft philosophy, it wouldn't be entirely far-fetched. She's clueless but I thought the Linux guy was a bit condescending about the whole thing. I worked with university profs who had absolutely no idea about this stuff, so she's not alone. I'd give people a chance to learn and recant before opening up with the big artillery. Peter > If she confiscated a knife, would it also be theft? However, if > something is confiscated, it should be returned later or given to the > principal/parent/police as appropriate. > > > Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Seems to me that if she kept the kid's disks that it might be >> construed as "theft" ... ? >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:49 PM, James Knott >> wrote: >> >>> Some people really are that clueless. I suppose that teacher thought >>> he was >>> stopping software "piracy". >>> >>> Mike Ward wrote: >>> >>>> This is so absurd it makes me want to suggest it's a publicity thing. >>>> >>>> - Mike >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michael Lauzon >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Found this on Slashdot, however the quote is taken directly from >>>> the >>>> blog -- with a link to the blog -- and the subject of the message >>>> is >>>> taken from another story pointing to the blog: >>>> >>>> "...observed one of my students with a group of other children >>>> gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he >>>> was >>>> giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the >>>> ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After >>>> confiscating >>>> the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I >>>> came >>>> to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you >>>> strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support >>>> your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this >>>> point, I >>>> am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and >>>> spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to >>>> adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time >>>> allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, >>>> I >>>> will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with >>>> many >>>> others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you >>>> make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your >>>> attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people >>>> but >>>> putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back. >>>> >>>> This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and >>>> putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping >>>> these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they >>>> would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older >>>> verison >>>> of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of >>>> service >>>> to those receiving them..." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Michael Lauzon >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Use OpenOffice.org >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 03:02:42 2008 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:02:42 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: $299 Unlocked Android Capable Phone from Koolu] Message-ID: <494082D2.7020801@linuxcaffe.ca> You can now order online and pick-up at linuxcaffe ! djp -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Koolu Support" Subject: $299 Unlocked Android Capable Phone from Koolu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:13:38 -0500 Size: 3905 URL: From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 05:06:46 2008 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:06:46 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is "illegal" and confiscates In-Reply-To: <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com>, <49403910.5050607@rogers.com>, <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <49405996.1443.A8C132D@sciguy.vex.net> > She's clueless but I thought the Linux guy was a bit condescending about > the whole thing. I worked with university profs who had absolutely no idea > about this stuff, so she's not alone. I'd give people a chance to learn > and recant before opening up with the big artillery. > > Peter > I took the condescension as a measured kind of anger. I think this was about his own son, so I would even go so far as to applaud him for his restraint. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 13:16:17 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:16:17 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is "illegal" and confiscates In-Reply-To: <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> <49403910.5050607@rogers.com> <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20081211081617.6v6pho1h0cs44sc8@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org --------- > She's clueless but I thought the Linux guy was a bit condescending about > the whole thing. There's clueless, which is no sin, and then there's clueless with fanatical certainty of one's own infallibility. I think it's that attitude in someone with responsibility for helping form children's outlooks on the world that's behind the outrage. If he'd used the same language while discussing the pros and cons of a business decision, I would share your skepticism about his approach. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 16:06:27 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:06:27 -0500 Subject: function keys on the console in text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081211160627.GH5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 05:10:27PM -0500, Mike Sillers wrote: > Yes, I am able to switch consoles. Unfortunately, the application we are > running requires F1 to F4. Maybe we can set up ssh (how we are connecting to > the remote server) to map the function keys. We're experimenting with > dropbear ssh client but I haven't found anyway to fix the function key > problem here either. Well certainly putty defaults to emulating xterm, whihc has its specific way to do function keys. Some idiot programmers hardcoded VT100 or ANSI function key codes rather than using terminfo or termcap to figure out the codes for the current terminal type. Those programs simply won't work in general. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 23:14:03 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:14:03 -0500 Subject: wmf graphics format on Linux, and windows.h In-Reply-To: References: <20081128032722.GA13094@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <492F6E70.8050100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49419EBB.6060101@gmail.com> WMF stands for Windows Meta File. This is an interesting format. It contains actually calls to internal windows functions to draw vector graphics. It may contain also bitmap data. I bought an Atlas of Moscow a few months ago, when there. It was very helpful and detailed, and it contained a CD with all the data there, with maps. These maps are stored just in wmf format. I can find the maps on CD. I could not view them, however, by using Linux. An ugly error message is generated (when using, for instance, display command, but also when using other available around tools). So, I found out documentation for wmf format on the internet, analyzed carefully the content of wmf files I have and finally found that changing a value of one, one of the last bytes in these files, allows me to view them! The data were designed on windows and the aim was to use them on windows. It seems that programmers did some sort of mistake that is tolerated on windows but not Linux, which has more strict checking of file format. That all is done by libwmf, which unfortunately does not seem to be developing anymore. An error message on Linux asks me to report problem to http://www.wvware.com - but try to access that site yourself... I want to play more with these wmf files. They use function calls that are defined in windows.h . Does any one around has by chance windows.h ? I would appreciate receiving a copy. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 14:40:26 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:40:26 -0500 Subject: wmf graphics format on Linux, and windows.h In-Reply-To: <49419EBB.6060101-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20081128032722.GA13094@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <492F6E70.8050100@gmail.com> <49419EBB.6060101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081212144026.GI5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 06:14:03PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > WMF stands for Windows Meta File. This is an interesting format. It > contains actually calls to internal windows functions to draw vector > graphics. It may contain also bitmap data. > > I bought an Atlas of Moscow a few months ago, when there. It was very > helpful and detailed, and it contained a CD with all the data there, > with maps. These maps are stored just in wmf format. I can find the maps > on CD. I could not view them, however, by using Linux. An ugly error > message is generated (when using, for instance, display command, but > also when using other available around tools). > > So, I found out documentation for wmf format on the internet, analyzed > carefully the content of wmf files I have and finally found that > changing a value of one, one of the last bytes in these files, allows me > to view them! The data were designed on windows and the aim was to use > them on windows. It seems that programmers did some sort of mistake that > is tolerated on windows but not Linux, which has more strict checking > of file format. That all is done by libwmf, which unfortunately does > not seem to be developing anymore. An error message on Linux asks me to > report problem to http://www.wvware.com - but try to access that site > yourself... They could also have done it on purpose to try and make the files only work with their program. Seems the site is http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html, although no development in years. Of course I don't think WMF is really used anymore. > I want to play more with these wmf files. They use function calls that > are defined in windows.h . Does any one around has by chance windows.h ? > I would appreciate receiving a copy. Could any of these be the right one: libdirectfb-dev: /usr/include/directfb-internal/core/windows.h libgpewidget-dev: /usr/include/gpe/windows.h libroot5.18: /usr/lib/root/5.18/cint/include/windows.h libwine-dev: /usr/include/wine/windows/windows.h mingw32-runtime: /usr/i586-mingw32msvc/include/windows.h -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 20:24:12 2008 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:24:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is "illegal" In-Reply-To: <20081211081617.6v6pho1h0cs44sc8-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> <49403910.5050607@rogers.com> <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20081211081617.6v6pho1h0cs44sc8@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <25335.173.34.8.54.1229113452.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > >> She's clueless but I thought the Linux guy was a bit condescending about >> the whole thing. The next shoe drops in this story. This reinforces my instinct that a careful, dispassionate rebuttal is the best way to answer nonsense about Linux. -------------------------------------------------------------- http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/character-assasinations-aint-us.html So instead of crafting a measured, count-for-count personal response, I chose to share her obvious ignorance with members of the Linux Community. It was meant to illustrate the maddening ignorance and bias a Linux Advocate faces in a Microsoft Windows world. It was also meant to digitally spank the hand of the offender. It was a good direction to go I thought. Things pretty much turned to fecal flakes from there. --------------------------------------------------------------- -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 20:21:12 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:21:12 -0500 Subject: wmf graphics format on Linux, and windows.h In-Reply-To: <20081212144026.GI5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20081128032722.GA13094@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <492F6E70.8050100@gmail.com> <49419EBB.6060101@gmail.com> <20081212144026.GI5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4942C7B8.1070204@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 06:14:03PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> WMF stands for Windows Meta File. This is an interesting format. It >> contains actually calls to internal windows functions to draw vector >> graphics. It may contain also bitmap data. >> >> I bought an Atlas of Moscow a few months ago, when there. It was very >> helpful and detailed, and it contained a CD with all the data there, >> with maps. These maps are stored just in wmf format. I can find the maps >> on CD. I could not view them, however, by using Linux. An ugly error >> message is generated (when using, for instance, display command, but >> also when using other available around tools). >> >> So, I found out documentation for wmf format on the internet, analyzed >> carefully the content of wmf files I have and finally found that >> changing a value of one, one of the last bytes in these files, allows me >> to view them! The data were designed on windows and the aim was to use >> them on windows. It seems that programmers did some sort of mistake that >> is tolerated on windows but not Linux, which has more strict checking >> of file format. That all is done by libwmf, which unfortunately does >> not seem to be developing anymore. An error message on Linux asks me to >> report problem to http://www.wvware.com - but try to access that site >> yourself... >> > > They could also have done it on purpose to try and make the files only > work with their program. > > Possibly. > Seems the site is http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html, although no > development in years. Of course I don't think WMF is really used > anymore. > A pity. This is a very interesting format. The reason might be related to security, since images contain calls to internal windows functions ... >> I want to play more with these wmf files. They use function calls that >> are defined in windows.h . Does any one around has by chance windows.h ? >> I would appreciate receiving a copy. >> > > Could any of these be the right one: > libdirectfb-dev: /usr/include/directfb-internal/core/windows.h > libgpewidget-dev: /usr/include/gpe/windows.h > libroot5.18: /usr/lib/root/5.18/cint/include/windows.h > libwine-dev: /usr/include/wine/windows/windows.h > mingw32-runtime: /usr/i586-mingw32msvc/include/windows.h > > Rather not helpful. Each of these files is different. The closest one is probably from libwine-dev but it contains includes from a lot of other files and it is difficult to figure out what is related to wmf. Thanks a lot anyway. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 20:46:51 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:46:51 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is "illegal" In-Reply-To: <25335.173.34.8.54.1229113452.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <5aa434200812100825n88b8dafhe5ce34b89e4a88d3@mail.gmail.com> <49400F21.5090009@rogers.com> <3a97ef0812101144h1e222cc0i9cf96be3adebe8b3@mail.gmail.com> <49403910.5050607@rogers.com> <16568.173.34.8.54.1228946937.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20081211081617.6v6pho1h0cs44sc8@easymail.pathcom.com> <25335.173.34.8.54.1229113452.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 3:24 PM, wrote: >>> She's clueless but I thought the Linux guy was a bit condescending about >>> the whole thing. > > The next shoe drops in this story. This reinforces my instinct that a > careful, dispassionate rebuttal is the best way to answer nonsense about > Linux. I don't think, from what I have seen, that the initial reaction was particularly off-base. Making noises about legal threats is a pretty serious matter. If she didn't want to "play hardball," she shouldn't have started out with that sort of threatening tone. You start playing hardball, over something you're ignorant about, and you're liable to wind up bruised, which is exactly what has happened. I'm not terribly proud of some of the secondary reactions. One response (on that page) suggested that she be "stabbed in the face," which is just ludicrous. She doesn't deserve THAT sort of nonsense; apparently there are some real animals out there. Seems analogous to the recent "Kick a Ginger" situation where a bunch of kids in BC had the bright idea of acting out a South Park episode that proposed kicking people with red hair ("gingers"). Our society seems to be generating some real "feral animals." Karen doesn't deserve the "feral animal" bits. But that's not the entire story, either - she did start a storm, and trying to be authoritative about things you don't understand just isn't wise. http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/NoteHomeFromTeacher -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Jay Leno - "The reason there are two senators for each state is so that one can be the designated driver." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 21:20:19 2008 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:20:19 -0500 Subject: OPLC XO Message-ID: <1229116819.20305.66.camel@leon> Just heard a radio ad for the XO (One laptop per child) on satellite radio. Wow. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 15:16:40 2008 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:16:40 -0500 Subject: difference in the tail command between most Linux distros and Fedora Message-ID: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram@295.ca> If you look at the reference for the tail command it talks to the option to specify a +n so that tail starts n lines from beginning of file. As an experiment create a 5 line text file called bob. Then tail +3 bob should dump lines 3-5. Except on Fedora systems. Apparently they have a different flavor of tail which doesn't recognize the + sign and tries to open a file call "+3". Does anyone have any history as to why this might be so? Any work arounds? Thanks. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 15:31:45 2008 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:31:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: difference in the tail command between most Linux distros and Fedora In-Reply-To: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, bob 295 wrote: > If you look at the reference for the tail command it talks to the option to > specify a +n so that tail starts n lines from beginning of file. > > As an experiment create a 5 line text file called bob. Then > > tail +3 bob > > should dump lines 3-5. > > Except on Fedora systems. Apparently they have a different flavor of tail > which doesn't recognize the + sign and tries to open a file call "+3". > > Does anyone have any history as to why this might be so? Any work arounds? The POSIX specs do not allow for the +3 syntax; it should be -n+3. Most versions of tail allow both. For a short while there was a version in the wild that didn't allow +3; it didn't last long, as compatibility with existing scripts was important. You must have that version. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 16:08:30 2008 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:08:30 -0500 Subject: difference in the tail command between most Linux distros and Fedora In-Reply-To: References: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <200812151108.30306.icanprogram@295.ca> On December 15, 2008 10:31 am, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, bob 295 wrote: > > If you look at the reference for the tail command it talks to the option > > to specify a +n so that tail starts n lines from beginning of file. > > > > As an experiment create a 5 line text file called bob. Then > > > > tail +3 bob > > > > should dump lines 3-5. > > > > Except on Fedora systems. Apparently they have a different flavor of > > tail which doesn't recognize the + sign and tries to open a file call > > "+3". > > > > Does anyone have any history as to why this might be so? Any work > > arounds? > > The POSIX specs do not allow for the +3 syntax; it should be -n+3. > Most versions of tail allow both. For a short while there was a > version in the wild that didn't allow +3; it didn't last long, as > compatibility with existing scripts was important. You must have > that version. Thanks. That works. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 17:15:26 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:15:26 -0500 Subject: difference in the tail command between most Linux distros and Fedora In-Reply-To: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20081215171526.GJ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:16:40AM -0500, bob 295 wrote: > If you look at the reference for the tail command it talks to the option to > specify a +n so that tail starts n lines from beginning of file. > > As an experiment create a 5 line text file called bob. Then > > tail +3 bob > > should dump lines 3-5. > > Except on Fedora systems. Apparently they have a different flavor of tail > which doesn't recognize the + sign and tries to open a file call "+3". > > Does anyone have any history as to why this might be so? Any work arounds? I believe the +n has been deprecated for a long time, and may simply have been dropped by now. You should be doing: tail -n +3 bob Tha man page on Debian stable doesn't even mention being able to leave out -n, and it was released a number of years ago. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 19:35:26 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:35:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: grumble about GNU info Message-ID: Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. Example: ls is using colour when it has no business doing so. The device has no colour capability and the terminfo says so. So I went to look up how to control this "feature". As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says the full documentation is in texinfo. The info command is particularly annoying, so I install pinfo. But pinfo doesn't take the same arguments as info, so I give up on pinfo for this task. I go to info coreutils 'ls invocation'. I come up empty handed. RICKROLLED! So I'm grumbly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 19:39:49 2008 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:39:49 -0500 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2274b9c30812151139u6de96d80o4e390be3ba9eb8bc@mail.gmail.com> unalias ls ? On 12/15/08, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. > > Example: > > ls is using colour when it has no business doing so. The device has > no colour capability and the terminfo says so. So I went to look up > how to control this "feature". > > As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not > describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says > the full documentation is in texinfo. > > The info command is particularly annoying, so I install pinfo. But > pinfo doesn't take the same arguments as info, so I give up on pinfo > for this task. > > I go to info coreutils 'ls invocation'. I come up empty handed. > > RICKROLLED! > > So I'm grumbly. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 19:55:44 2008 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:55:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. > > Example: > > ls is using colour when it has no business doing so. The device has > no colour capability and the terminfo says so. So I went to look up > how to control this "feature". > > As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not > describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says > the full documentation is in texinfo. My ls man page does mention LS_COLORS and refers the reader to the dircolors command. However, that is probably not the problem, and the problem will not be obvious from any man page. Some distros have the stupid practice of setting aliases for some standard commands; "ls ==color=auto" is one of the commonn ones. To prevent this I always put "unalias -a" at the top of my .bashrc file. > The info command is particularly annoying, so I install pinfo. But > pinfo doesn't take the same arguments as info, so I give up on pinfo > for this task. I've never tried pinfo, but info is a PITA! -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:36:58 2008 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:36:58 +0100 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4946BFEA.20706@gmail.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. Have you tried piping it through less? i.e. ~$ info ls | less It's really quite usable then. Many of the collapsing sections and junk get ripped out. It almost looks like a man page :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:55:31 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: available on job market In-Reply-To: <4946BFEA.20706-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4946BFEA.20706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4946C443.9020906@gmail.com> Please forgive privacy. November was so "nice" that most since 26 years lost jobs in Canada. Me between them. I was enjoying my work and was proud of what I did there. The boss however run out of money, while not able to sell the product on which mostly I myself was working for almost 3 years. I would be happy to get either full time job or got involved in a part-time project, or a something that could be done over the internet. My main experience is around (except of physics, which is rather out of possible interest here) in such fields as web server programming, in general web development, and also systems design and administration. Keywords: PHP, PostgreSQL, Perl, AJAX, XML/XMLST, Java, Apache, Tomcat, Postfix Will of course send a more detailed resume if any one wishes to receive it. Thanks. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:23:53 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:23:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Kyle O'Donnell | unalias ls ? Sure. Or type /bin/ls. | From: Chris F.A. Johnson | > As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not | > describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says | > the full documentation is in texinfo. | | My ls man page does mention LS_COLORS and refers the reader to the | dircolors command. Right. I wasn't clear. ls(1) does mention LS_COLORS but does not describe it. Neither does dircolors(1). | However, that is probably not the problem, and the problem will | not be obvious from any man page. Some distros have the stupid | practice of setting aliases for some standard commands; | "ls ==color=auto" is one of the commonn ones. To prevent this I | always put "unalias -a" at the top of my .bashrc file. I try to keep my customization to a minimum. I find that it is like a ball and chain that I have to drag around from system to system. But I always do some. The alias on Fedora 9 and Ubuntu 8.10 seems to be "ls --color=tty". Another undocumented setting. Grunt. On Fedora 9, the colorization does not happen in the case that annoys me but it does on Ubuntu 8.10. The case is inside my text editor: it provides a fake terminal, inside a window, for running shell commands. The $TERM setting is "vanilla" on Fedora and "dumb" on Ubuntu (at one time these were reasonable). On Fedora: $ echo $TERM vanilla $ typeset -p TERM declare -x TERM="vanilla" $ infocmp -L infocmp: couldn't open terminfo file /lib/terminfo/v/vanilla. $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /usr/share/terminfo/d/dumb dumb|80-column dumb tty, auto_right_margin, columns#80, bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, scroll_forward=^J, $ On Ubuntu, I get a result that surprises me. $ echo $TERM dumb $ typeset -p TERM declare -- TERM="dumb" $ infocmp -L infocmp: environment variable TERM not set $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /lib/terminfo/d/dumb dumb|80-column dumb tty, auto_right_margin, columns#80, bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, scroll_forward=^J, $ How did TERM get set to be unexported? From looking at an strace, it seems that JOVE has been compiled to not export TERM to the shell. (I built JOVE for Fedora (for myself) but someone else builds it for Ubuntu.) In any case, exporting TERM=dumb does not fix ls on Ubuntu. Nor does making TERM "vanilla". | I've never tried pinfo, but info is a PITA! pinfo is slightly less of a PITA. Nothing can fix the crappy texinfo data, but the keystrokes are a little more familiar. KDE's help system (whatever it is called) has a still better GUI. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:27:26 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:27:26 -0500 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: <4946BFEA.20706-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4946BFEA.20706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4946CBBE.9010408@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. >> > > Have you tried piping it through less? > > i.e. ~$ info ls | less > > It's really quite usable then. Many of the collapsing sections and junk > get ripped out. It almost looks like a man page :-) > More or less. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:36:07 2008 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:36:07 -0500 Subject: available on job market In-Reply-To: <4946C443.9020906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4946BFEA.20706@gmail.com> <4946C443.9020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50812151336s742152a0j8d17b102366903bc@mail.gmail.com> Hi, What is your experience in physics ? have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBee Dave On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Please forgive privacy. > > November was so "nice" that most since 26 years lost jobs in Canada. Me > between them. I was enjoying my work and was proud of what I did there. The > boss however run out of money, while not able to sell the product on which > mostly I myself was working for almost 3 years. > > I would be happy to get either full time job or got involved in a part-time > project, or a something that could be done over the internet. > > My main experience is around (except of physics, which is rather out of > possible interest here) in such fields as web server programming, in general > web development, and also systems design and administration. > > Keywords: PHP, PostgreSQL, Perl, AJAX, XML/XMLST, Java, Apache, Tomcat, > Postfix > > Will of course send a more detailed resume if any one wishes to receive it. > > Thanks. > > zb. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:43:49 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:43:49 -0500 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081215214349.GK5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:35:26PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Whenever I use GNU info I feel that I've been rickrolled. > > Example: > > ls is using colour when it has no business doing so. The device has > no colour capability and the terminfo says so. So I went to look up > how to control this "feature". So what is the terminal type? Certainly I have seen ls --color=auto in the past work fine and do the "right thing" based on terminal type. > As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not > describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says > the full documentation is in texinfo. > > The info command is particularly annoying, so I install pinfo. But > pinfo doesn't take the same arguments as info, so I give up on pinfo > for this task. > > I go to info coreutils 'ls invocation'. I come up empty handed. Well disabling any use of colour will probably involve finding where it was aliased in or otherwise enabled in the profile or bashrc of the system or the user. And info docs suck. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:46:14 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:46:14 -0500 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081215214614.GL5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:23:53PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The alias on Fedora 9 and Ubuntu 8.10 seems to be "ls --color=tty". > Another undocumented setting. Grunt. ls --color=auto would have been much better. Plain ls would have been best. :) > On Fedora 9, the colorization does not happen in the case that annoys > me but it does on Ubuntu 8.10. The case is inside my text editor: it > provides a fake terminal, inside a window, for running shell commands. > > The $TERM setting is "vanilla" on Fedora and "dumb" on Ubuntu (at one > time these were reasonable). > > On Fedora: > $ echo $TERM > vanilla > $ typeset -p TERM > declare -x TERM="vanilla" > $ infocmp -L > infocmp: couldn't open terminfo file /lib/terminfo/v/vanilla. > $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L > # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /usr/share/terminfo/d/dumb > dumb|80-column dumb tty, > auto_right_margin, > columns#80, > bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, > scroll_forward=^J, > $ > > > On Ubuntu, I get a result that surprises me. > > $ echo $TERM > dumb > $ typeset -p TERM > declare -- TERM="dumb" > $ infocmp -L > infocmp: environment variable TERM not set > $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L > # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /lib/terminfo/d/dumb > dumb|80-column dumb tty, > auto_right_margin, > columns#80, > bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, > scroll_forward=^J, > $ > > How did TERM get set to be unexported? From looking at an strace, it > seems that JOVE has been compiled to not export TERM to the shell. (I > built JOVE for Fedora (for myself) but someone else builds it for Ubuntu.) > > In any case, exporting TERM=dumb does not fix ls on Ubuntu. Nor does > making TERM "vanilla". > > | I've never tried pinfo, but info is a PITA! > > pinfo is slightly less of a PITA. Nothing can fix the crappy texinfo > data, but the keystrokes are a little more familiar. KDE's help > system (whatever it is called) has a still better GUI. Sounds like fun. How attached are you to your editor choice? :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 01:40:59 2008 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:40:59 -0500 Subject: available on job market In-Reply-To: <4946C443.9020906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4946BFEA.20706@gmail.com> <4946C443.9020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/08, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Please forgive privacy. > > November was so "nice" that most since 26 years lost jobs in Canada. Me > between them. I was enjoying my work and was proud of what I did there. > The boss however run out of money, while not able to sell the product on > which mostly I myself was working for almost 3 years. > > I would be happy to get either full time job or got involved in a > part-time project, or a something that could be done over the internet. > > My main experience is around (except of physics, which is rather out of > possible interest here) in such fields as web server programming, in > general web development, and also systems design and administration. > > Keywords: PHP, PostgreSQL, Perl, AJAX, XML/XMLST, Java, Apache, Tomcat, > Postfix > > Will of course send a more detailed resume if any one wishes to receive it. > > Thanks. > > zb. Sad to hear, too many of us in that same boat. I trust you're aware of the GTALug list of job hunt resources: http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Job_Hunting Please make use of the above and if you find some other interesting resouces, please add them to the above list. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 02:42:29 2008 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:42:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Ultra high surveillance conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0812151842s7c6a73c5v9fd6026e010446e1@mail.gmail.com> A sort-of-maybe-off-topic post. If anyone happens to be near Berlin between Christmas and New Years, this might be an interesting event to attend. I look forward to reading about it during/after. :) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: smr Date: Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:43 PM Subject: Ultra high surveillance conference To: watchingback http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/wiki/OpenBeacon_with_OpenAMD This event is using RFID tags to track each of the attendees every move. There's an interesting comment on Harry Potter's Marauder's Map, which is something I'd never ever considered, that actually is a breach of civil liberties after all. "Nothing to hide - really? 25th Chaos Communication Congress 27-29 December, Berliner Congress Centre, Berlin, Germany Be watched as closely as only tomorrow's most sinister politicians can imagine. See how it works - and learn how to circumvent it. Heard about Cory Doctorow's Little Brother? Come to the Congress and live the book! This month, the Open Attendee Meta-Data (OpenAMD) system and SocioPatterns.org will merge RFID technology with social networking to create live visualizations based on people's locations and interests. For only ?10, over a thousand conference attendees can upgrade their badges to participate in a real life incarnation of Harry Potter's "Marauder's Map." " That's pretty fascinating, I think it would generate a very interesting visual map but at the same time - I wouldn't appreciate that in the slightest if I was living under it. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/watchingback?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 02:53:10 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:53:10 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Ultra high surveillance conference In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0812151842s7c6a73c5v9fd6026e010446e1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0812151842s7c6a73c5v9fd6026e010446e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/wiki/OpenBeacon_with_OpenAMD > > This event is using RFID tags to track each of the attendees every > move. There's an interesting comment on Harry Potter's Marauder's > Map, which is something I'd never ever considered, that actually is a > breach of civil liberties after all. I'm sorry, but this is NOT a "breach of civil liberties." Carrying the tag is NOT a civil ordinance - it requires *volunteering* to do so. There's no "fine line" here; while it may indeed be intrusive, and there may be plenty that may be inferred, there's also plenty that *isn't* getting "surveilled." It's not even controversial in the ways that people make noise about vis-a-vis censorship (e.g. - "Walmart censors! They only sell certain books!!!") because individuals attending the conference have the option to opt in or out on this. Surveillance is not a "conference condition." Furthermore, it's only tracking the badge's location - participants are free to opt out at any instant in time. It seems like a pretty useful study, to see what temptations there are, both pro and con. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Robert Orben - "Older people shouldn't eat health food, they need all the preservatives they can get." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 09:07:37 2008 From: gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Eric Battersby) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 04:07:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081216023750.H2361@vex.net> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Kyle O'Donnell > > | unalias ls ? > > Sure. Or type /bin/ls. Or '\ls'. > | From: Chris F.A. Johnson > > | > As is too often the case, the ls(1) manpage is incomplete. It does not > | > describe the environment variable LS_COLORS (it should). ls(1) says > | > the full documentation is in texinfo. > | > | My ls man page does mention LS_COLORS and refers the reader to the > | dircolors command. > > Right. I wasn't clear. ls(1) does mention LS_COLORS but does not > describe it. Neither does dircolors(1). I see it described in my old dircolors(1) man page from 1997. Today, they moved the docs into dir_colors(5). > | However, that is probably not the problem, and the problem will > | not be obvious from any man page. Some distros have the stupid > | practice of setting aliases for some standard commands; > | "ls ==color=auto" is one of the commonn ones. To prevent this I > | always put "unalias -a" at the top of my .bashrc file. > > I try to keep my customization to a minimum. I find that it is like a > ball and chain that I have to drag around from system to system. > But I always do some. Isn't some customization a good thing, so you can do real work faster? Today customization is easier than ever. In the past, you'd have to carry around your floppy. Today, you'd have a USB stick or you'd download it from a web page and 'source' it. > The alias on Fedora 9 and Ubuntu 8.10 seems to be "ls --color=tty". > Another undocumented setting. Grunt. I was not aware that 'tty' had been discontinued (or deprecated). The sub-options of '--color' were 'yes,no,tty'. Now they are 'never,always,auto'. I question these pointless changes. > On Fedora 9, the colorization does not happen in the case that annoys > me but it does on Ubuntu 8.10. The case is inside my text editor: it > provides a fake terminal, inside a window, for running shell commands. > > The $TERM setting is "vanilla" on Fedora and "dumb" on Ubuntu (at one > time these were reasonable). BTW, on Fedora 7, in the Jove text editor, when running a fake terminal (shell), TERM is set to 'dumb' for me. $ echo $TERM dumb Also, note that 'dircolors' should not generate an $LS_COLORS string for 'dumb' or 'vanilla' when I tested it: $ TERM=dumb dircolors LS_COLORS=''; export LS_COLORS $ TERM=vanilla dircolors LS_COLORS=''; export LS_COLORS What do you get? Does your system have a 'dir_colors' entry for those terminal types? Try: grep TERM /etc/DIR_COLORS* ~/.dir*col* > On Fedora: > $ echo $TERM > vanilla > $ typeset -p TERM > declare -x TERM="vanilla" > $ infocmp -L > infocmp: couldn't open terminfo file /lib/terminfo/v/vanilla. > $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L > # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /usr/share/terminfo/d/dumb > dumb|80-column dumb tty, > auto_right_margin, > columns#80, > bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, > scroll_forward=^J, > $ > > > On Ubuntu, I get a result that surprises me. > > $ echo $TERM > dumb > $ typeset -p TERM > declare -- TERM="dumb" > $ infocmp -L > infocmp: environment variable TERM not set > $ TERM=dumb infocmp -L > # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /lib/terminfo/d/dumb > dumb|80-column dumb tty, > auto_right_margin, > columns#80, > bell=^G, carriage_return=^M, cursor_down=^J, > scroll_forward=^J, > $ > > How did TERM get set to be unexported? From looking at an strace, it > seems that JOVE has been compiled to not export TERM to the shell. (I > built JOVE for Fedora (for myself) but someone else builds it for Ubuntu.) > > In any case, exporting TERM=dumb does not fix ls on Ubuntu. Nor does > making TERM "vanilla". By fix 'ls', I assume you mean not define the alias. The alias is not defined (in /etc/profile.d/colorls.sh) if $LS_COLORS is empty after eval'ing 'dircolors'. To fix, comment out the 'dumb' or 'vanilla' TERM entry in the appropriate file: /etc/DIR_COLORS* ~/.dir*col* . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 14:57:17 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Ultra high surveillance conference In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0812151842s7c6a73c5v9fd6026e010446e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081216145717.GM5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 09:53:10PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm sorry, but this is NOT a "breach of civil liberties." > > Carrying the tag is NOT a civil ordinance - it requires *volunteering* to do so. > > There's no "fine line" here; while it may indeed be intrusive, and > there may be plenty that may be inferred, there's also plenty that > *isn't* getting "surveilled." > > It's not even controversial in the ways that people make noise about > vis-a-vis censorship (e.g. - "Walmart censors! They only sell certain > books!!!") because individuals attending the conference have the > option to opt in or out on this. Surveillance is not a "conference > condition." > > Furthermore, it's only tracking the badge's location - participants > are free to opt out at any instant in time. They could even trade badges for the fun of it if they wanted to. > It seems like a pretty useful study, to see what temptations there > are, both pro and con. Yes it could be interesting. And also interesting to know if people stuck with the intent or played around with the system. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 15:00:36 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:00:36 -0500 Subject: grumble about GNU info In-Reply-To: <20081216023750.H2361-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20081216023750.H2361@vex.net> Message-ID: <20081216150036.GN5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 04:07:37AM -0500, Eric Battersby wrote: > I was not aware that 'tty' had been discontinued (or deprecated). > The sub-options of '--color' were 'yes,no,tty'. > Now they are 'never,always,auto'. > I question these pointless changes. I was using --color=auto 10 years ago, and I have never seen the option be tty. Makes you wonder if some distribution changed it to tty at some point while the normal option was auto. Certainly I have used auto on many distributions over the years and never seen tty before. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 18:06:05 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:05 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" Message-ID: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Hi all, Last year I was asked to put together a sample program that did a few things in Perl, Python, Ruby and Bash. Being a perl coder mainly, I went looking for resources specifically aimed at showing someone like me how to do X in language foo, using language bar as a frame of reference. I never found such a page, and a year later this still nags at me... SO! I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. It's simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's hosted on an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll register a proper domain. In the meantime: http://madisonave.ca I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? Normally I would not ask for help until I've already got a fair bit done, but in this case I only really know one language, so I can't do much more than I already have. I am certainly happy to play pseudo-editor and example code tester though! If you like two (or more) languages and have an itch to help people familiar with one learn the other(s), please drop by! Thanks, as always! Madi PS - Generic feedback on the greatness/ridiculousness of this project are more than welcome. :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 18:28:21 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:28:21 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > PS - Generic feedback on the greatness/ridiculousness of this project > are more than welcome. :) It seems like an interesting idea. My first thought is about the "size and shape" of the examples that might be useful to include. Perhaps things along the lines of the entries in the O'Reilly cookbook-style publications? (Or whatever other guideline you may have in mind.) I've recently had reason to use some of the Wikipedia entries for design patterns and note that they have multi-language examples. They aren't equivalent code line-by-line, but often different implementations of the same base principle. E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorator_pattern -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 18:40:43 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:40:43 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> PS - Generic feedback on the greatness/ridiculousness of this project >> are more than welcome. :) > > It seems like an interesting idea. My first thought is about the "size > and shape" of the examples that might be useful to include. Perhaps > things along the lines of the entries in the O'Reilly cookbook-style > publications? (Or whatever other guideline you may have in mind.) > > I've recently had reason to use some of the Wikipedia entries for design > patterns and note that they have multi-language examples. They aren't > equivalent code line-by-line, but often different implementations of the > same base principle. > E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorator_pattern That is certainly a good "guiding principle" using the cookbook style. Though, I think every pair of languages will have their own interesting challenges, so I do not want to impose any format restrictions at this point. I figure over time a particularly good format will emerge. The only three rules I will enforce are: * That no debate about language A being better than Language B. * Any article only talks about the two languages in reference. * No articles act as a learning guide for the source language. To keep the scope of the project within reach, I want to keep a somewhat narrow focus on the technical differences between two languages. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:12:08 2008 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:12:08 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216191208.GB18881@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:06:05PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Last year I was asked to put together a sample program that did a few > things in Perl, Python, Ruby and Bash. > > Being a perl coder mainly, I went looking for resources specifically > aimed at showing someone like me how to do X in language foo, using > language bar as a frame of reference. > > I never found such a page, and a year later this still nags at me... I found the Perl-to-Python Phrasebook [1] very useful when starting Python. This could be an extension of that resource. I like the idea. [1] http://wiki.python.org/moin/PerlPhrasebook -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:26:33 2008 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:26:33 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0812161126s5554c1b8y79db46f799414c1d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. It's > simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's hosted on > an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll register a proper > domain. In the meantime: > > http://madisonave.ca > > I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are > comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? Great idea. :) I've registered and added a couple entries for BASIC and JavaScript. I'll tap away at them as opportunities arise. Also, have you seen Rosetta Code? I think (IIRC) that originally it was intended for a similar purpose; seems to have gone down a slightly different road though. http://www.rosettacode.org/ -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:35:23 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:35:23 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216191208.GB18881-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216191208.GB18881@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <494802FB.60903@alteeve.com> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:06:05PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Last year I was asked to put together a sample program that did a few >> things in Perl, Python, Ruby and Bash. >> >> Being a perl coder mainly, I went looking for resources specifically >> aimed at showing someone like me how to do X in language foo, using >> language bar as a frame of reference. >> >> I never found such a page, and a year later this still nags at me... > > I found the Perl-to-Python Phrasebook [1] very useful when starting > Python. This could be an extension of that resource. I like the idea. > > [1] http://wiki.python.org/moin/PerlPhrasebook That is an excellent resource! Minus a few quips at perl, It'd be a great resource to copy, if the authors okay it. I'll have to drop them a line. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:40:21 2008 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:40:21 -0500 Subject: u-law, a-law verses G.723, G.729, GSM etc Message-ID: Hi pals, I am not sure if what I have in mind is correct and nothing picked up by google seriously satisfied me and that is why I am posting this. Its on VOIP. There is these compounding algorithms - according to wikipedia, u-law and a-law. Then there is the voice compression algorithms or codecs? I mean G.723, G.729, GSM to name a few. Now I kind of know how they work but a little mixed up as to whether they are inclusive, exclusive or just one thing with different names. For example, G.711 is in some on line article also called u-law. This is not a single incident and the whole business has made me feel confused. My take of it is this, when a call is received, its taken through either u-law or a-law depending on geographical location. The resulting audio signal is then taken again through the later group - G.723 or GSM. The result is then packed as an IP packet and delivered to destination where the reverse happen. Now, is this the correct or I could as well be smoking pot? audio <-> a-law <-> G.723 <-----------------> G.723 <-> a-law <-> Ah, now I even noticed something else. Someone could call from Canada - read a-law to UK where u-law is used. Now that would result to using one algorithm for compressing and another for expanding and I do not believe the result would be intelligible. Someone please educate me here. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:48:57 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:48:57 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0812161126s5554c1b8y79db46f799414c1d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <99a6c38f0812161126s5554c1b8y79db46f799414c1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49480629.8030103@alteeve.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: >> I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. It's >> simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's hosted on >> an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll register a proper >> domain. In the meantime: >> >> http://madisonave.ca >> >> I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are >> comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? > > Great idea. :) > > I've registered and added a couple entries for BASIC and JavaScript. > I'll tap away at them as opportunities arise. > > Also, have you seen Rosetta Code? I think (IIRC) that originally it > was intended for a similar purpose; seems to have gone down a slightly > different road though. > > http://www.rosettacode.org/ Thanks for joining! I see someone else has, too. :) Hopefully this will develop into a useful resource! The Rosetta Code project indeed looks similar, but as you mentioned, it's focus is a bit different. It may be a great source for this project (if the source allows it). The main difference is that CtC is meant to explain "How to do X using Y as a frame of reference". Rosetta seems to be more "Here is problem X, and here is hows it's solved in all these languages". Very useful, certainly, but an important difference in focus. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:07:04 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:07:04 -0500 Subject: u-law, a-law verses G.723, G.729, GSM etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49480A68.1030301@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals, > > I am not sure if what I have in mind is correct and nothing picked up > by google seriously satisfied me and that is why I am posting this. > > Its on VOIP. There is these compounding algorithms - according to > wikipedia, u-law and a-law. Then there is the voice compression > algorithms or codecs? I mean G.723, G.729, GSM to name a few. > > Now I kind of know how they work but a little mixed up as to whether > they are inclusive, exclusive or just one thing with different names. > > For example, G.711 is in some on line article also called u-law. This > is not a single incident and the whole business has made me feel > confused. > > My take of it is this, when a call is received, its taken through > either u-law or a-law depending on geographical location. The > resulting audio signal is then taken again through the later group - > G.723 or GSM. The result is then packed as an IP packet and delivered > to destination where the reverse happen. Now, is this the correct or I > could as well be smoking pot? > > audio <-> a-law <-> G.723 <-----------------> G.723 <-> a-law <-> > > Ah, now I even noticed something else. Someone could call from Canada > - read a-law to UK where u-law is used. Now that would result to using > one algorithm for compressing and another for expanding and I do not > believe the result would be intelligible. Someone please educate me > here. A-law & u-law refer to the analog/digital encoding method, used to reduce quantizing noise. u-law is used in North America, a-law in Europe etc. It doesn't really matter which you use, so long as you use the same on both ends. Some systems can work either and some only one. This is more of a concern for carriers, providing trunks across the pond. On an individual call basis, pick which ever one is convenient, though I'd recommend using u-law only within North America & Japan. G.729, G.711 etc., refer to the compression method used to reduce bandwidth. G.711 is no compression, giving the full 64 Kb/s bandwidth. G.729 gives the greatest compression, and worst call quality, squeezing a voice call into 8 Kb/s. G.721 & G.723 have been superseded by G.726, which provides a few different compression rates. G.726 falls between G.729 and G.711, in both bandwidth required and call quality. GSM compression is for use with GSM cell phones. You'd normally not see it off the GSM cell phone network, as it gets converted to G.711 when it hits the wired phone network. The compressed systems are generally used on private trunks or some long distance resellers. I've never had a call running u-law on one end and A-law on the other. I'd suspect it'd still be intelligible, though distorted, as the encoding curves aren't that different from each other. The main difference is u-law can handle a greater dynamic range and A-law has less noise at low audio levels. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:10:03 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:10:03 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes Message-ID: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> http://www.itworldcanada.com/Pages/Docbase/ViewArticle.aspx?id=idgml-d4617c1f-33bc-466d&Portal=4fb7319b-aa7c-423a-822d-2f6e24698c71&sub=146611 -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:17:06 2008 From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:17:06 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:06:05PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > ... > I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. > It's simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's > hosted on an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll > register a proper domain. In the meantime: > ... This looks interesting to me. Once there are one or two pages up showing what sort of content you're after, I'd be interesting in adding to it. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:18:57 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> Wow, the wiki was already vandalized AND fixed. Sad that someone already wants to attack the page, but much more impressive how the you site already reacts fast enough to fix it! :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:22:35 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:22:35 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. > It's simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's > hosted on an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll > register a proper domain. In the meantime: > > http://madisonave.ca > > I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are > comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? > Madison, Firstly: totally awesome idea. I would certainly use this if it was populated with examples. I would/will also help populate it with examples. I think this has a lot of potential and I urge you to go through with it. A note about the UI or navigation: I think it would be better to have the algorithm/"thing" (let's call it a "coding concept" because in general these are simpler than full-blown algorithms) that I'm trying to implement as the first level choice and *then* see which source/target languages are available for it. For example, suppose I want to find out how to implement a method override in a subclass via inheritance in C++, I know Python, and I know Java. It doesn't matter to me what my source language is as long as it exists for one of those two, so I can easily choose the source language without wading through all the other "source language" pages looking for the concept. There's also the advantage that you can quickly assess whether or not the concept exists in your collection, and and even better advantage: you can put a pseudo-code version on the concept's profile. Once the concept has a profile you could even add some comments to it. Like, for example, in the above case someone could add a very useful note: "Note that in Java all class methods are virtual so that methods in a subclass with the same signature are always overrides where in C++ this is not true unless the method is declared as a virtual. " All in all excellent idea and I'm looking forward to helping you with it, but from a programmer's perspective I think this UI issue is critical. Marc -- Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:28:52 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:28:52 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49480F84.8070606@alteeve.com> John Vetterli wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:06:05PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> ... >> I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. >> It's simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's >> hosted on an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll >> register a proper domain. In the meantime: >> ... > > This looks interesting to me. Once there are one or two pages up > showing what sort of content you're after, I'd be interesting in adding > to it. > > JV Maybe I will start a 'Perl to Psudo' code page that can act as a layout template. I'll poke at that! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From unforgiven24-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:29:47 2008 From: unforgiven24-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Ward) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:29:47 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <5aa434200812161229i39a303aeia70e092a35c52d00@mail.gmail.com> Love the idea, registering now. I'll see what I can do to help out with the Perl-To-X areas, maybe. - Mike On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > Last year I was asked to put together a sample program that did a few > things in Perl, Python, Ruby and Bash. > > Being a perl coder mainly, I went looking for resources specifically aimed > at showing someone like me how to do X in language foo, using language bar > as a frame of reference. > > I never found such a page, and a year later this still nags at me... > > SO! > > I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. It's > simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's hosted on > an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll register a proper > domain. In the meantime: > > http://madisonave.ca > > I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are > comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? > > Normally I would not ask for help until I've already got a fair bit done, > but in this case I only really know one language, so I can't do much more > than I already have. I am certainly happy to play pseudo-editor and example > code tester though! > > If you like two (or more) languages and have an itch to help people > familiar with one learn the other(s), please drop by! > > Thanks, as always! > > Madi > > PS - Generic feedback on the greatness/ridiculousness of this project are > more than welcome. :) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:30:23 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:30:23 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49480629.8030103-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <99a6c38f0812161126s5554c1b8y79db46f799414c1d@mail.gmail.com> <49480629.8030103@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49480FDF.9070304@ualberta.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > > Thanks for joining! I see someone else has, too. :) Hopefully this will > develop into a useful resource! > > The Rosetta Code project indeed looks similar, but as you mentioned, > it's focus is a bit different. It may be a great source for this project > (if the source allows it). > > The main difference is that CtC is meant to explain "How to do X using Y > as a frame of reference". Rosetta seems to be more "Here is problem X, > and here is hows it's solved in all these languages". > > Very useful, certainly, but an important difference in focus. > This partly nullifies my previous post. :( Sorry for not reading it first. I still think it's better to look up what you're trying to do first, and maybe rather than list how to do it in all languages, you could have the option to choose your source language and target language, and see how it's done side-by-side along with user-contributed notes specific to the selection of source+target languages. Marc -- Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:38:33 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49480E0B.1060501-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> Pardon the in-line reply, but you have some great points I want to respond to individually! Marc Lanctot wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> I decided to start a little project to see if it might go anywhere. >> It's simple, just a(nother) wiki. I've called it 'Code to Code'. It's >> hosted on an unused domain of mine. Should this get past go, I'll >> register a proper domain. In the meantime: >> >> http://madisonave.ca >> >> I was wondering what it would take to interest folks here who are >> comfortable in two languages help get the ball rolling? >> > > Madison, > > Firstly: totally awesome idea. I would certainly use this if it was > populated with examples. I would/will also help populate it with > examples. I think this has a lot of potential and I urge you to go > through with it. Any and all help is appreciated! > A note about the UI or navigation: I think it would be better to have > the algorithm/"thing" (let's call it a "coding concept" because in > general these are simpler than full-blown algorithms) that I'm trying to > implement as the first level choice and *then* see which source/target > languages are available for it. First and formost, I want to standardize on actual article being called 'Foo to Bar', then within it I would like to have all functions in their own section that can be linked to individually. With that structure in place, It would be relatively easy to create an interface that does just what you want. I agree though, my current UI is terribly simple, but I meant it to be a framework that can be expanded on more than a final product. :) > For example, suppose I want to find out how to implement a method > override in a subclass via inheritance in C++, I know Python, and I know > Java. It doesn't matter to me what my source language is as long as it > exists for one of those two, so I can easily choose the source language > without wading through all the other "source language" pages looking for > the concept. So something like a searchable index? IE: "Show me source languages showing how to use function X in language A"? This would be great, any suggestions on how to implement that in a wiki? The closest thing I can think of is the "What links here?" special page for the section talking about the function. If you have any ideas you would like to try, by all means please experiment on the project wiki. > There's also the advantage that you can quickly assess whether or not > the concept exists in your collection, and and even better advantage: > you can put a pseudo-code version on the concept's profile. True, I think this would be a very useful feature. Again though, how to implement... ? > Once the concept has a profile you could even add some comments to it. > Like, for example, in the above case someone could add a very useful > note: "Note that in Java all class methods are virtual so that methods > in a subclass with the same signature are always overrides where in C++ > this is not true unless the method is declared as a virtual. " That would need to be a "glue" page, I think. To keep to focus of the project narrow, I would like to keep the "core" articles strictly referencing the source language. Perhaps have a "More" page for any given feature that can be followed off the main article? > All in all excellent idea and I'm looking forward to helping you with > it, but from a programmer's perspective I think this UI issue is critical. > > Marc UI is everything, I agree. People won't contribute if the interface feels clumsy or inhibiting. Anyone who has any idea, please play around and let me know what you have in mind. I am quite open to suggestions. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:44:51 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:44:51 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49480FDF.9070304-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <99a6c38f0812161126s5554c1b8y79db46f799414c1d@mail.gmail.com> <49480629.8030103@alteeve.com> <49480FDF.9070304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49481343.8020403@alteeve.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > I still think it's better to look up what you're trying to do first, and > maybe rather than list how to do it in all languages, you could have the > option to choose your source language and target language, and see how > it's done side-by-side along with user-contributed notes specific to the > selection of source+target languages. > > Marc That is exactly the kind of format I am hoping will develop! :) Would this be what you are thinking, except having the example boxes side by side instead of one over the other, for easier reading. ------- '''Perl to Javascipt''' == Arrays == Unlike in perl, where the length of the array is ..., javascript uses the '.length' object to return the arrays length. In perl, you would do: for (my $i=0; $i<@arr; $i++) { # Code... } In javascript you would do: for (i=0; i References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <5aa434200812161229i39a303aeia70e092a35c52d00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4948139D.1040000@alteeve.com> Mike Ward wrote: > Love the idea, registering now. I'll see what I can do to help out with > the Perl-To-X areas, maybe. > > - Mike I can't say how impressed and greatful I am to already have so much interest! Thanks Mike, I look forward to seeing what you can add, when you can of course. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:18:05 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:18:05 -0500 Subject: New domain: (was: New project, "Code to Code") In-Reply-To: <4947EE0D.50001-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49481B0D.8050900@alteeve.com> Given the amount of interest already shown, I decided to grab the domain 'http://codetocode.net'. It's already up and running. Thanks again for all the interest! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:25:21 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:25:21 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49480D31.2080904-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > Wow, the wiki was already vandalized AND fixed. "Tax dollars at work!" OrgName: Toronto Public Library OrgID: TPL-7 Address: Systems Division, 281 Front Street City: Toronto StateProv: Ontario PostalCode: M5A 4L2 Country: CA NetRange: 192.30.202.0 - 192.30.202.255 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:28:17 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:28:17 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <49481D71.4040900@utoronto.ca> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> Wow, the wiki was already vandalized AND fixed. > > "Tax dollars at work!" > > OrgName: Toronto Public Library OrgID: TPL-7 > Address: Systems Division, 281 Front Street > City: Toronto > StateProv: Ontario > PostalCode: M5A 4L2 > Country: CA > > NetRange: 192.30.202.0 - 192.30.202.255 You're right, providing relatively unencumbered and unmonitored internet access to patrons is a great use of tax dollars. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:34:07 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:34:07 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <49481ECF.5050904@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> Wow, the wiki was already vandalized AND fixed. > > "Tax dollars at work!" > > OrgName: Toronto Public Library OrgID: TPL-7 > Address: Systems Division, 281 Front Street > City: Toronto > StateProv: Ontario > PostalCode: M5A 4L2 > Country: CA > > NetRange: 192.30.202.0 - 192.30.202.255 Huh, I wonder how they found the project already. Do we have anti-Linux spies?!?! :) Thanks to whomever fixed it so fast! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:35:38 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:35:38 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49481D71.4040900-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <49481D71.4040900@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49481F2A.6010502@alteeve.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > You're right, providing relatively unencumbered and unmonitored internet > access to patrons is a great use of tax dollars. > > Jamon Philip probably was thinking it was an employee instead of a guest. I suspect though that you are right, and that it was someone "enjoying" free Internet access. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:44:30 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:44:30 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49481F2A.6010502-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <49481D71.4040900@utoronto.ca> <49481F2A.6010502@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216164430.xrt823x5w04kggs4@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > Philip probably was thinking it was an employee instead of a guest. Well, not really. I was thinking more "tragedy of the commons": anything that's established as a shared resource without user accountability will be appropriated/corrupted/damaged by jerks. (See: SPAM) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:48:01 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:48:01 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216164430.xrt823x5w04kggs4-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <49481D71.4040900@utoronto.ca> <49481F2A.6010502@alteeve.com> <20081216164430.xrt823x5w04kggs4@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <49482211.8080800@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> Philip probably was thinking it was an employee instead of a guest. > > Well, not really. I was thinking more "tragedy of the commons": > anything that's established as a shared resource without user > accountability will be appropriated/corrupted/damaged by jerks. (See: > SPAM) It's a trade-off though... You are certainly right, but how can you stop the idjits without restricting people who have legitimate interests while preserving their right to privacy? Personally, I think we have to put up with the "commons"... It's worth the benefit. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:53:03 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:53:03 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4947F62B.50805-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:40:43PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > That is certainly a good "guiding principle" using the cookbook style. > Though, I think every pair of languages will have their own interesting > challenges, so I do not want to impose any format restrictions at this > point. I figure over time a particularly good format will emerge. > > The only three rules I will enforce are: > * That no debate about language A being better than Language B. > * Any article only talks about the two languages in reference. > * No articles act as a learning guide for the source language. > > To keep the scope of the project within reach, I want to keep a somewhat > narrow focus on the technical differences between two languages. :) I actually think trying to work in one language with a point of view of another is simply going about things the wrong way. What you should be doing is make a list of small sample problems along with sample solutions for that problem in different languages. This way you can get good examples of how to use each language well, rather than examples of how to ram language A's style into language B. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 21:58:55 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:58:55 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216215303.GO5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I actually think trying to work in one language with a point of view of > another is simply going about things the wrong way. > > What you should be doing is make a list of small sample problems along > with sample solutions for that problem in different languages. This way > you can get good examples of how to use each language well, rather than > examples of how to ram language A's style into language B. Scott mentioned Rosetta Code, which seems to be exactly what you are describing. I don't expect CtC to be itself enough to learn a language, but more of a stepping stone to help people "think" the way a new language requires using points of reference the person already understands. It's meant to be a project that fills a niche. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 22:07:01 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:07:01 -0500 Subject: u-law, a-law verses G.723, G.729, GSM etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081216220701.GP5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 02:40:21PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > I am not sure if what I have in mind is correct and nothing picked up > by google seriously satisfied me and that is why I am posting this. > > Its on VOIP. There is these compounding algorithms - according to > wikipedia, u-law and a-law. Then there is the voice compression > algorithms or codecs? I mean G.723, G.729, GSM to name a few. > > Now I kind of know how they work but a little mixed up as to whether > they are inclusive, exclusive or just one thing with different names. > > For example, G.711 is in some on line article also called u-law. This > is not a single incident and the whole business has made me feel > confused. > > My take of it is this, when a call is received, its taken through > either u-law or a-law depending on geographical location. The > resulting audio signal is then taken again through the later group - > G.723 or GSM. The result is then packed as an IP packet and delivered > to destination where the reverse happen. Now, is this the correct or I > could as well be smoking pot? > > audio <-> a-law <-> G.723 <-----------------> G.723 <-> a-law <-> I think it would be: audio <-> a-law <-> G.723 <-> a-law (on regular phone system) <-> a-law (on regular phone system) <-> G.723 <-> a-law <-> audio After all a regular phone system is involved when GSM calls are made, so the GSM compression only applies between the phone and the cell phone provider, after which it is back to normal *-law again for transfer on the normal 64kbps circuits. > Ah, now I even noticed something else. Someone could call from Canada > - read a-law to UK where u-law is used. Now that would result to using > one algorithm for compressing and another for expanding and I do not > believe the result would be intelligible. Someone please educate me > here. Normally when you do PCM encoding, you just use a linear map of voltages to bits. u-law and a-law use a logorithmic rather than linear mapping of voltages to bits to get better coverage of both quiet and load sounds with decent representations at both ends of the scale, while using less bits than linear would require for the same thing. u-law and a-law use different values for each bit, but they are as far as I know fairly close together. Conversion does take place when moving between regions and does cause a bit of loss of quality. u-law is north america and japan, a-law is everywhere else. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 22:11:19 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:11:19 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4948249F.1050000-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 04:58:55PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Scott mentioned Rosetta Code, which seems to be exactly what you are > describing. Yeah I just noticed. Looks like a nice setup. > I don't expect CtC to be itself enough to learn a language, but more of > a stepping stone to help people "think" the way a new language requires > using points of reference the person already understands. Except you won't be thinking the way the new language should be thought about if you try to find a way to do things as you did in the other language. After all trying to figure out how to do a for loop in another language may be a bad idea if you fundamentally shouldn't be doing counted loops in the other language at all. > It's meant to be a project that fills a niche. I am not convinced it is helpful. I have a bad feeling it may just help people keep on using bad habits in new languages. Maybe I am just feeling pesimistic today. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 22:25:50 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:25:50 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216221119.GQ5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49482AEE.9080400@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 04:58:55PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Scott mentioned Rosetta Code, which seems to be exactly what you are >> describing. > > Yeah I just noticed. Looks like a nice setup. > >> I don't expect CtC to be itself enough to learn a language, but more of >> a stepping stone to help people "think" the way a new language requires >> using points of reference the person already understands. > > Except you won't be thinking the way the new language should be thought > about if you try to find a way to do things as you did in the other > language. > > After all trying to figure out how to do a for loop in another language > may be a bad idea if you fundamentally shouldn't be doing counted loops > in the other language at all. > >> It's meant to be a project that fills a niche. > > I am not convinced it is helpful. I have a bad feeling it may just help > people keep on using bad habits in new languages. Maybe I am just > feeling pesimistic today. Perhaps the answer would be something like: "Here is how you do X, but it's not recommended because ... Instead, you should use Y because in this language ..." Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 23:57:28 2008 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:57:28 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: <49480B1B.20300-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/08, James Knott wrote: > http://www.itworldcanada.com/Pages/Docbase/ViewArticle.aspx?id=idgml-d4617c1f-33bc-466d&Portal=4fb7319b-aa7c-423a-822d-2f6e24698c71&sub=146611 > Yes, it is impressive. Pity that even 40 years on we don't really have some of the video collaboration tools shown in the above demo... :-( . Yes folks, tools that were very cutting edge 40 years ago have not yet become mainstream, sigh... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 01:07:17 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:07:17 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> Message-ID: <494850C5.9060009@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > On 12/16/08, James Knott wrote: > >> http://www.itworldcanada.com/Pages/Docbase/ViewArticle.aspx?id=idgml-d4617c1f-33bc-466d&Portal=4fb7319b-aa7c-423a-822d-2f6e24698c71&sub=146611 >> >> > > Yes, it is impressive. Pity that even 40 years on we don't really have > some of the video collaboration tools shown in the above demo... :-( . > > Yes folks, tools that were very cutting edge 40 years ago have not yet > become mainstream, sigh... > > FWIW, many years ago, I supported some computer terminals, made by Phillips, that used a joy stick, instead of a mouse, for moving around the screen. The joy stick was mounted as part of the keyboard, to the right of the keys. The operators could use the joy stick to move the cursor around the screen, so they could perform various functions. The terminals were attached to a PDP-8i and used to enter telegrams at CN Telecommunications. I first saw that system in about 31 years ago and it was a few years old then. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 01:10:05 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:10:05 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4948516D.1090108@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > > Yes folks, tools that were very cutting edge 40 years ago have not yet > become mainstream, sigh... > > IIRC, there was some remote collaboration app available for OS/2, but I don't remember much about it. I think you'll find a lot of innovation, over the years, has been killed by Microsoft. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 02:34:50 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:34:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: <4948516D.1090108-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> <4948516D.1090108@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, James Knott wrote: > IIRC, there was some remote collaboration app available for OS/2, but I > don't remember much about it. I think you'll find a lot of innovation, > over the years, has been killed by Microsoft. I'd have to agree but try convincing the person in the street :) They see what has happened not what could have happened. As much as anyone can be prescient computing professionals are in the best position to see "what might have been". I don't think MS set out to quash innovation but monopolies are inherently non-innovative. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 03:18:59 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:18:59 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> <4948516D.1090108@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49486FA3.8040803@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, James Knott wrote: > >> IIRC, there was some remote collaboration app available for OS/2, but I >> don't remember much about it. I think you'll find a lot of innovation, >> over the years, has been killed by Microsoft. > > I'd have to agree but try convincing the person in the street :) They > see what has happened not what could have happened. As much as anyone > can be prescient computing professionals are in the best position to > see "what might have been". > > I don't think MS set out to quash innovation but monopolies are > inherently non-innovative. > Actually, if you read their history, there are a few instances of where they, one way or another, killed innovative companies, that might have threatened them in some way. Read about what happened to DR-DOS for one example or Netscape for another. Then there's how they appeared to be promoting OS/2 and got other software companies to follow suit and then pushed Windows, for which they were the only ones with apps ready to go. The list goes on... -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 15:41:02 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:41:02 -0500 Subject: VMS books Message-ID: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Hey, OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books on VMS/OpenVMS? I'm trying to catch up on some stuff during my time off for Xmas, but the only place that has anything thus far is Amazon with a 3 week ship-time. Thanks, Tyler -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 15:48:52 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:48:52 -0500 Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081217104852.nve4ayphk00sw48s@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org --------- > OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books > on VMS/OpenVMS? It's been years since I bought any there, but searching the UofT bookstore site got me eleven titles. http://www.uoftbookstore.com/online/search.ihtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 16:56:10 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:56:10 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49482AEE.9080400-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49482AEE.9080400@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081217165610.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 05:25:50PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Perhaps the answer would be something like: > > "Here is how you do X, but it's not recommended because ... Instead, you > should use Y because in this language ..." Now that would be alot better. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 16:58:48 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:58:48 -0500 Subject: 40-year-old computer mouse demo still amazes In-Reply-To: <49486FA3.8040803-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49480B1B.20300@rogers.com> <4948516D.1090108@rogers.com> <49486FA3.8040803@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081217165848.GS5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:18:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Actually, if you read their history, there are a few instances of where > they, one way or another, killed innovative companies, that might have > threatened them in some way. Read about what happened to DR-DOS for one > example or Netscape for another. Then there's how they appeared to be > promoting OS/2 and got other software companies to follow suit and then > pushed Windows, for which they were the only ones with apps ready to go. > The list goes on... I blame netscape 4 for the demise of netscape. That one was not microsoft's fault, although microsoft did ruin the idea of making money on netscape. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:05:35 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:05:35 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217165610.GR5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49482AEE.9080400@alteeve.com> <20081217165610.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49493F6F.1030203@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 05:25:50PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Perhaps the answer would be something like: >> >> "Here is how you do X, but it's not recommended because ... Instead, you >> should use Y because in this language ..." > > Now that would be alot better. :) > I love constructive criticism, thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:17:42 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:17:42 -0500 Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: <20081217104852.nve4ayphk00sw48s-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> <20081217104852.nve4ayphk00sw48s@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812171017q665e0d6fs5e470ed0432059e8@mail.gmail.com> I tried them. They list a bunch of books but it seems the majority of those are out-of-print and they don't actually carry them anymore :-( On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org --------- > >> OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books >> on VMS/OpenVMS? > > It's been years since I bought any there, but searching the UofT bookstore > site got me eleven titles. > > http://www.uoftbookstore.com/online/search.ihtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:19:57 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:19:57 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> Wow, the wiki was already vandalized AND fixed. > > "Tax dollars at work!" > > OrgName: Toronto Public Library OrgID: TPL-7 > Address: Systems Division, 281 Front Street > City: Toronto > StateProv: Ontario > PostalCode: M5A 4L2 > Country: CA > > NetRange: 192.30.202.0 - 192.30.202.255 Seems our friend is back with vengeance, lol. He apparently felt is message wasn't received well enough, so he decided to vandalize (almost) every page of the wiki... This time he did it from home, it would seem. http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 *sigh* I've decided to install reCAPTCHA for anonymous edits... I am loathe to force registration. Anyone else have any ideas for keeping the wiki open as possible while dealing with such distinguished editors as our friend here? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:27:00 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:27:00 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <494942CD.10901-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 > > *sigh* Sympatico HSE SYMD20070326-CA (NET-70-54-108-0-1) 70.54.108.0 - 70.54.111.255 Obviously the world needs IP-geolocation with centimeter resolution. :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:29:03 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:29:03 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <494944EF.2070708@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 >> >> *sigh* > > Sympatico HSE SYMD20070326-CA (NET-70-54-108-0-1) > 70.54.108.0 - 70.54.111.255 > > Obviously the world needs IP-geolocation with centimeter resolution. :-) haha, I don't know if that would be wonderful or anarchy. Wonderful anarchy maybe? :P madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:38:27 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49493F6F.1030203-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49482AEE.9080400@alteeve.com> <20081217165610.GR5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49493F6F.1030203@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49494723.2030700@gmail.com> >>> "Here is how you do X, but it's not recommended because ... Instead, >>> you should use Y because in this language ..." >> >> Now that would be alot better. :) >> > > I love constructive criticism, thanks! Actually that kind of site might be very useful. Do we always remember all functions, their syntax, to do certain things? Even in a language we know well? No. I am used in my programming work to do many, sometime tens of searches for details on Google, on php.net, or using perldoc -f, etc. Such an example: I want to know how to find time in seconds since the epoche. How to do this in perl, in php, javascript and postgres at the same time? And similar needs do exist sometime. Actually I did find a similar site, but I do not remember now its address. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 19:30:55 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:30:55 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081216221119.GQ5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Except you won't be thinking the way the new language should be thought > about if you try to find a way to do things as you did in the other > language. > > After all trying to figure out how to do a for loop in another language > may be a bad idea if you fundamentally shouldn't be doing counted loops > in the other language at all. Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage of a for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely different programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. imperative to functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool is meant to accomplish. And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example "Note: In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do <>". >> It's meant to be a project that fills a niche. > > I am not convinced it is helpful. I have a bad feeling it may just help > people keep on using bad habits in new languages. Maybe I am just > feeling pesimistic today. Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. At least the way I see it this tool would be used as a reference for things that you don't remember how to do in one language because you're not used to working in it. Example: "aw man, how do you get the length of a string in Python" ? You can avoid the Google search and browsing through non-standardized pages to find the info you need. I've worked with Java for years that I became an expert and didn't need any reference. The last two years I've been working with C++ and I've needed to do these kind of look-ups. This happens all the time for programmers so there is a need for a tool like this. Marc -- What a season to be beautiful without a reason. -- The White Stripes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 19:48:08 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:48:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Tyler Aviss | OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books | on VMS/OpenVMS? I'm interested: why do you want to learn about VMS? That might affect what book you want to read. My impression has been that VMS's time has passed. This may well be because of the circles I travel within. If you just want to learn about different OSes, there are probably more worthy ones. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 19:50:28 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:50:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4949536F.1020700-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A | programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:02:15 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:02:15 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4949536F.1020700-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> Except you won't be thinking the way the new language should be thought >> about if you try to find a way to do things as you did in the other >> language. >> >> After all trying to figure out how to do a for loop in another language >> may be a bad idea if you fundamentally shouldn't be doing counted loops >> in the other language at all. > > Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage of a > for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely different > programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. imperative to > functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool is meant to > accomplish. > > And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user > contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example "Note: > In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do < functional construct>>". Actually, let me poke at this one a bit... We frequently regard "for loops" as being ALL about iterating over a set of numeric values, basically because of the ways that FORTRAN and BASIC shaped our thinking. Thus, people frequently get stuck on this way of thinking because of code like: DO 9 J= 1, 10 DO 9 K= 1, 10 9 L= J + K and 10 FOR I = 1 to 20 20 PRINT I 30 NEXT I And if the *REAL* think that you're iterating across is some list of things, you have to go off and write a correspondence between them. Frequently, operating on a list would be *way* more natural. (loop for (product price) in '(("shoes" 62.50) ("boots" 75.00) ("hats" 35.00) do (format t "Product: ~A Price: ~A~%" product price)) That's the pretty cool example of doing destructuring of a list in a Lisp loop, drawing the internal elements of a nested list, which is more than you tend to be able to conveniently do in most languages. But the same is still commonly true. In Perl, I wouldn't write: for ($i = 1; $i <= $#SOMEARRAY; $i++) { my ($element) = $SOMEARRAY[$i]; # do something with each element in @SOMEARRAY } I'd instead do: foreach $element (@SOMEARRAY) { # do something with each element } Python has much the same: for element in SOMEARRAY: foo(element) > Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A > programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. I think that *numeric* for loops indeed are frequently a bad habit. This is the difference between looking at a computer as a "number processor" and a "symbol processor." We often get sucked into thinking the former, when the latter is a much more accurate way of looking at things, and is sometimes more convenient, to boot. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Bob Hope - "I don't feel old. I don't feel anything till noon. That's when it's time for my nap." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:05:21 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:05:21 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <494811C9.1080809-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49495B81.8050101@ualberta.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > First and formost, I want to standardize on actual article being called > 'Foo to Bar', then within it I would like to have all functions in their > own section that can be linked to individually. > > With that structure in place, It would be relatively easy to create an > interface that does just what you want. I agree though, my current UI is > terribly simple, but I meant it to be a framework that can be expanded > on more than a final product. :) >> For example, suppose I want to find out how to implement a method >> override in a subclass via inheritance in C++, I know Python, and I >> know Java. It doesn't matter to me what my source language is as long >> as it exists for one of those two, so I can easily choose the source >> language without wading through all the other "source language" pages >> looking for the concept. > > So something like a searchable index? IE: > > "Show me source languages showing how to use function X in language A"? > > This would be great, any suggestions on how to implement that in a wiki? > The closest thing I can think of is the "What links here?" special page > for the section talking about the function. No this is not what I meant. Maybe it's easiest to illustrate with an example. I have lots of experience with language X and Y, but now because I work for company C I have to use language Z. (bummer!) So, I coding along happily (or unhappily, as it were) in language Z and I find myself not knowing how to pass variables by reference. Step 1: I invoke Code-to-Code. First thing I do is lookup "passing variables by reference in function calls". I find it, I'm happy. I get sent to a page (this concept's profile) called "Passing variables by reference to functions". I also see a list of source/target languages. Step 2: I notice my target (Z) is there, let's say Z = C++. Step 3: I choose my source (X) is there, let's say A = Java. Step 4: I click "GO!" and bam, up pops up an example side-by-side. On the left we have: void function(int i, ObjectType o) { // i is passed by value, therefore changes are local i += 4; // o is passed by reference.. changes inside persist o.somefunction(); o.somepublicfield = somevalue; } On the right: void function(int i, int & j, int * k, my_type * ptr, my_type & ref) { // i is passed by value, changes are local i += 4; // j is passed by reference, changes persist j += 4; // k's address is passed by value, but you can use it to change // the value of the variable it is pointing to in memory // changes persist if you do this (*k) = 4; // but not if you do this. address value in k is local k = 0x08fe82a6; // changes value of somemember in object pointed to by ptr o->somemember = somevalue; // same deal except via a reference ref.x = 4; } On the bottom: Note1: in Java, all object types are passed by reference whereas all primitive data types are passed by value. Note2: In C++, all primitive data types are passed by value unless you use a reference or pointer. There are two way to pass something "by reference": using a pointer or using a reference. Bla bla bla... > If you have any ideas you would like to try, by all means please > experiment on the project wiki. > >> There's also the advantage that you can quickly assess whether or not >> the concept exists in your collection, and and even better advantage: >> you can put a pseudo-code version on the concept's profile. > > True, I think this would be a very useful feature. Again though, how to > implement... ? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would use this as a reference and not as a way to learn a new language. IMO, you shouldn't use a tool like this to learn a new language, because (as Lennart Sorensen pointed out) you'll miss some of the intended ways for the language to be used. It should used only as a reference, and as such should be indexed first by programming concept and *then* by source/target languages. Now, if you're using a wiki (without adding any custom code of your own) then implementation of this may be problematic. Ideally you'd need to build your own database back-end so that you control how the data is served. Can you extend a wiki to do this kind of thing? I don't know. All I know is if I was using it, I would not want to search all n possible source languages (two clicks and two page loads each) to find out that what I was looking for wasn't there. In fact, if I had to do this I wouldn't use it at all because Googling would be faster. Marc -- What a season to be beautiful without a reason. -- The White Stripes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:09:20 2008 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:09:20 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes Message-ID: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi there, I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding this org has a site license. They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. Thanks! - - Evan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJSVxwB6WWYxnsgmwRAnFiAJ93B4SGFT2Gu1swON5w0fU/hHdfRQCghxB6 DElKLGQowf4Lvk3HlEy34ck= =ednX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:11:49 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:11:49 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4949536F.1020700-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20081217201149.GT5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 02:30:55PM -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage > of a for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely > different programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. > imperative to functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool > is meant to accomplish. In some languages you are much better off doing a map of a function onto a list of data rather than looping over the data. Doing switch statements in perl simply isn't going to happen, while some other languages has such a concept. > And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user > contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example > "Note: In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do < recursive functional construct>>". That's why I think in many cases even considering doing something a certain way is just plain wrong for a given language. > Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A > programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. Yeah it is. Most of the time when you do a for loop what you really meant to say was 'do this to each item in this array', so that's what you should have told it rather than use a for loop. Unfortunately languages like C don't have any such construct and you are left with using a crappy for loop. With the nifty way to do it the language could have parallelized it for you across lots of CPUs. With the for loop it is purely serial code and any parallelism comes down to the skill of the programmer (where unfortunately most aren't that capable because it is seriously hard to do right and especially hard to do well.) > At least the way I see it this tool would be used as a reference for > things that you don't remember how to do in one language because you're > not used to working in it. Example: "aw man, how do you get the length > of a string in Python" ? You can avoid the Google search and browsing > through non-standardized pages to find the info you need. That would certainly help at times. > I've worked with Java for years that I became an expert and didn't need > any reference. The last two years I've been working with C++ and I've > needed to do these kind of look-ups. This happens all the time for > programmers so there is a need for a tool like this. So far I have avoided java and I hope to continue that trend. :) I have even managed to avoid c++ for a number of years now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:15:01 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:15:01 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20081217201501.GU5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:02:15PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > I think that *numeric* for loops indeed are frequently a bad habit. The c style for (.. ; .. ; ..) contruct certainly is. > This is the difference between looking at a computer as a "number > processor" and a "symbol processor." We often get sucked into > thinking the former, when the latter is a much more accurate way of > looking at things, and is sometimes more convenient, to boot. Yeah, too much thought into "how should the program do this, where should the data go in memory, etc" rather than "what should the program do". -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:16:03 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:16:03 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <20081217201603.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 01:27:00PM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: > Sympatico HSE SYMD20070326-CA (NET-70-54-108-0-1) > 70.54.108.0 - 70.54.111.255 > > Obviously the world needs IP-geolocation with centimeter resolution. :-) But then bell couldn't assign random dynamic IPs to their victims every few hours... -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:23:15 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:23:15 -0500 Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 2:48 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > | OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books > | on VMS/OpenVMS? > > I'm interested: why do you want to learn about VMS? > > That might affect what book you want to read. > > My impression has been that VMS's time has passed. This may well be > because of the circles I travel within. It appears that that HP is shipping an IA-64-based variation of OpenVMS, which means that they do have a roadmap for its survival so long as Intel continues with IA-64... I agree that it's not a platform that many would be considering for brand new systems, and I don't expect that it would be terribly easy to "break in" to VMS opportunities as a new job. At the more abstract level, VMS has had a number of interesting services that were fairly ubiquitously-available, unlike on Unix: - ACMS, a TP system - Rdb, a built-in SQL DBMS - Some built-in data storage / communications structuring tools like RMS, FDL - Files-11 was a filesystem with a fair bit more functionality than Unix filesystems tend to offer > If you just want to learn about different OSes, there are probably > more worthy ones. Here's a seeming-self-published book on VMS... http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/openvms_application_developer_book_reviews.html The table of contents seems interesting, and it may well be that lovingly-created self-published books by people that loved VMS may provide some useful perspective. I think there are a couple of books like this out there. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/oses.html Rita Rudner - "I was a vegetarian until I started leaning toward the sunlight." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:33:42 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:33:42 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49496226.4030203@ualberta.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: >> Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage of a >> for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely different >> programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. imperative to >> functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool is meant to >> accomplish. >> >> And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user >> contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example "Note: >> In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do <> functional construct>>". > > Actually, let me poke at this one a bit... I knew I should not have mentioned LISP. My instinct told me not to and I didn't listen. Bad Marc :) I am snipping out your examples but they are good examples. I certainly agree that LISP (functional programming in general) allows you to think about what you're trying to do and express it in a better way than imperative programming typically does. As to whether that is a good or bad thing in general, IMO, it depends on your application. I've gotten into this argument before and I certainly don't want to again (and I'm not sure it's relevant anyway, see below). Suffice to say that I agree with you on the surface level about LISP allowing you to represent your intentions better. >> Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A >> programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. > > I think that *numeric* for loops indeed are frequently a bad habit. > > This is the difference between looking at a computer as a "number > processor" and a "symbol processor." We often get sucked into > thinking the former, when the latter is a much more accurate way of > looking at things, and is sometimes more convenient, to boot. I don't see why what you call "numeric for loops" to be bad. In some cases you just have to do it. Why would we want to prevent anybody from being able to return a sum of a set of numbers? There are perfectly legitimate reasons to do this. If your argument is that the /language/ shouldn't allow you do do this by using for loops because it's better to think of it as a something different, then I think you're saying that you have something against the syntax/semantics of the language. Either way, the existence of the reference tool is orthogonal to this discussion (I hope you agree). If you mean that people should not be using numeric for loops in certain cases and that it is a bad thing, then my point is that having Code-to-Code out there will not encourage bad programming for people who are already bad programmers. Bad Programmers encourage bad programming. A reference tool for programmers to save time can only be a good thing... bad programmers exist and will continue to exist regardless of the tools that exist to help the good programmers. And, a reference tool that helps good programmers should not be considered harmful just because bad programmers exist. Marc -- What a season to be beautiful without a reason. -- The White Stripes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:42:43 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:42:43 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217201149.GT5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> <20081217201149.GT5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49496443.1070905@ualberta.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 02:30:55PM -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage >> of a for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely >> different programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. >> imperative to functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool >> is meant to accomplish. > > In some languages you are much better off doing a map of a function onto > a list of data rather than looping over the data. This would be the point of the notes below the concept's profile, to mention these kind of things. It depends on the application, so (IMO) this is for the programmer to decide not the reference tool provider. > Doing switch statements in perl simply isn't going to happen, while some > other languages has such a concept. Again, people can learn from this by a note existing at the bottom of a "switch statement" profile. Note1: "switch statements don't exist in Perl, therefore you have to use if/elsif/else" and the target language portion would have an example in this case. >> And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user >> contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example >> "Note: In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do <> recursive functional construct>>". > > That's why I think in many cases even considering doing something a > certain way is just plain wrong for a given language. The reason I disagree is that there are far more concept overlaps between language that concepts that don't overlap. And for those that don't overlap nicely, the notes would solve this problem. Marc -- What a season to be beautiful without a reason. -- The White Stripes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 20:53:46 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:53:46 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <494966DA.4080808@alteeve.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >>> Except you won't be thinking the way the new language should be thought >>> about if you try to find a way to do things as you did in the other >>> language. >>> >>> After all trying to figure out how to do a for loop in another language >>> may be a bad idea if you fundamentally shouldn't be doing counted loops >>> in the other language at all. >> Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage of a >> for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely different >> programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. imperative to >> functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool is meant to >> accomplish. >> >> And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user >> contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example "Note: >> In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do <> functional construct>>". > > Actually, let me poke at this one a bit... > > We frequently regard "for loops" as being ALL about iterating over a > set of numeric values, basically because of the ways that FORTRAN and > BASIC shaped our thinking. > > Thus, people frequently get stuck on this way of thinking because of code like: > > DO 9 J= 1, 10 > DO 9 K= 1, 10 > 9 L= J + K > > and > > 10 FOR I = 1 to 20 > 20 PRINT I > 30 NEXT I > > And if the *REAL* think that you're iterating across is some list of > things, you have to go off and write a correspondence between them. > > Frequently, operating on a list would be *way* more natural. > > (loop for (product price) in '(("shoes" 62.50) ("boots" 75.00) ("hats" 35.00) > do (format t "Product: ~A Price: ~A~%" product price)) > > That's the pretty cool example of doing destructuring of a list in a > Lisp loop, drawing the internal elements of a nested list, which is > more than you tend to be able to conveniently do in most languages. > But the same is still commonly true. > > In Perl, I wouldn't write: > > for ($i = 1; $i <= $#SOMEARRAY; $i++) { > my ($element) = $SOMEARRAY[$i]; > # do something with each element in @SOMEARRAY > } > > I'd instead do: > foreach $element (@SOMEARRAY) { > # do something with each element > } > > Python has much the same: > > for element in SOMEARRAY: > foo(element) > >> Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A >> programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference tools. > > I think that *numeric* for loops indeed are frequently a bad habit. > > This is the difference between looking at a computer as a "number > processor" and a "symbol processor." We often get sucked into > thinking the former, when the latter is a much more accurate way of > looking at things, and is sometimes more convenient, to boot. This would make a wonderful seed article for Lisp to Perl and Lisp to Python! If you feel so inclined, could I ask you to add it? If you rather, and are willing, I could add it to the wiki on your behalf. The main reason I'd ask you is so that you were properly credited. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 21:08:59 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:08:59 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217201603.GV5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> <20081217201603.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49496A6B.9020005@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 01:27:00PM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: >> Sympatico HSE SYMD20070326-CA (NET-70-54-108-0-1) >> 70.54.108.0 - 70.54.111.255 >> >> Obviously the world needs IP-geolocation with centimeter resolution. :-) > > But then bell couldn't assign random dynamic IPs to their victims every > few hours... That was funny, thanks for the giggle. As an aside, I've got a note into abuse-QzBGVNF/z2itXF2fZOsJYA at public.gmane.org Curious if it will find a human in the Bell behemoth. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 21:34:05 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:34:05 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49495B81.8050101-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> <49495B81.8050101@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <4949704D.90500@alteeve.com> Inline reply (sorry, but several good points I'd like to address). Marc Lanctot wrote: > Maybe it's easiest to illustrate with an example. I have lots of > experience with language X and Y, but now because I work for company C I > have to use language Z. (bummer!) > > So, I coding along happily (or unhappily, as it were) in language Z and > I find myself not knowing how to pass variables by reference. > > Step 1: I invoke Code-to-Code. First thing I do is lookup "passing > variables by reference in function calls". I find it, I'm happy. I get > sent to a page (this concept's profile) called "Passing variables by > reference to functions". I also see a list of source/target languages. > > Step 2: I notice my target (Z) is there, let's say Z = C++. > > Step 3: I choose my source (X) is there, let's say A = Java. > > Step 4: I click "GO!" and bam, up pops up an example side-by-side. On > the left we have: I think this could be done by creating a page, named for the function in question. In there then could be a list of links to articles with that function, sorted by 'X to Y'. This should allow Mediawiki's built in search engine to provide you with the information you're looking for. Already people are creating a structure to the articles I hadn't thought of. I had planned to create 'X to Y' as a single, complete article. Instead it is evolving as 'X to Y/function|concept|etc' and the 'X to Y' article becomes a list of links. This may be very useful as it would allow for what you are talking about. If I am getting this right, then this page should be inline with what you are thinking? http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Python/Arrays > void function(int i, ObjectType o) > { > // i is passed by value, therefore changes are local > i += 4; > > // o is passed by reference.. changes inside persist > o.somefunction(); > o.somepublicfield = somevalue; > } > > On the right: > > void function(int i, int & j, int * k, my_type * ptr, my_type & ref) > { > // i is passed by value, changes are local > i += 4; > > // j is passed by reference, changes persist > j += 4; > > // k's address is passed by value, but you can use it to change > // the value of the variable it is pointing to in memory > // changes persist if you do this > (*k) = 4; > > // but not if you do this. address value in k is local > k = 0x08fe82a6; > > // changes value of somemember in object pointed to by ptr > o->somemember = somevalue; > > // same deal except via a reference > ref.x = 4; > } > > On the bottom: > > Note1: in Java, all object types are passed by reference whereas all > primitive data types are passed by value. > > Note2: In C++, all primitive data types are passed by value unless you > use a reference or pointer. There are two way to pass something "by > reference": using a pointer or using a reference. Bla bla bla... Another excellent example that could be a seed article for 'Java to C++'! Could I ask you to add it, if you have the time? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am more than happy to do it myself, but when possible I'd like to keep attributions intact in the wiki. :) >> If you have any ideas you would like to try, by all means please >> experiment on the project wiki. >> >>> There's also the advantage that you can quickly assess whether or not >>> the concept exists in your collection, and and even better advantage: >>> you can put a pseudo-code version on the concept's profile. >> >> True, I think this would be a very useful feature. Again though, how >> to implement... ? > > I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would use this as a reference > and not as a way to learn a new language. IMO, you shouldn't use a tool > like this to learn a new language, because (as Lennart Sorensen pointed > out) you'll miss some of the intended ways for the language to be used. > It should used only as a reference, and as such should be indexed first > by programming concept and *then* by source/target languages. I agree. Code to Code is not meant to be a tutorial in any way... There are already a multitude of great tutorials for every language. It is, as you suggest, meant to be a reference for programmers interested in language X, but who have a proficiency in Y. The notes, which Lennart impressed on me, could well be as important as any code examples. They will do wonders to help someone write better code simply because they will come in looking for a function they are familiar with and find a pointer to what they should do. The associated code examples will still be important to complete a reference like this and they could also serve as an example of why 'function foo' is better approached using concept or function 'bar'. > Now, if you're using a wiki (without adding any custom code of your own) > then implementation of this may be problematic. Ideally you'd need to > build your own database back-end so that you control how the data is > served. Can you extend a wiki to do this kind of thing? I don't know. > All I know is if I was using it, I would not want to search all n > possible source languages (two clicks and two page loads each) to find > out that what I was looking for wasn't there. In fact, if I had to do > this I wouldn't use it at all because Googling would be faster. > > Marc Anything is possible, but I think with the right collection of "glue" pages it will not be needed. Simply searching for "Python Array" already returns the page above as the first result (a page of pointers to 'X to Y' articles discussing Python's arrays). All this feedback is already helping a lot in focusing the structure of this project! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 22:53:16 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:53:16 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49496226.4030203-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <20081216132821.hhqj9xk9kwsckwks@easymail.pathcom.com> <4947F62B.50805@alteeve.com> <20081216215303.GO5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4948249F.1050000@alteeve.com> <20081216221119.GQ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4949536F.1020700@ualberta.ca> <49496226.4030203@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > >>> Honestly, how many languages differ in the semantics and expected usage >>> of a >>> for loop? It's not like someone trying to learn a completely different >>> programming paradigm would cross between paradigms (eg. imperative to >>> functional programming) .. that's just not what the tool is meant to >>> accomplish. >>> >>> And, even if someone would do something like this, there should be user >>> contributed notes attached to each translation.. following my example >>> "Note: >>> In LISP a better way to do a for loop is to do <>> functional construct>>". >> >> Actually, let me poke at this one a bit... > > I knew I should not have mentioned LISP. My instinct told me not to and I > didn't listen. Bad Marc :) Actually, I'll poke at that a *little* bit more. I don't generally consider LISP to be "functional", *certainly* not Common LISP. If you look at the HyperSpec, which is more or less the ANSI spec in a highly-hypertexted form, there are 26 chapters, and NONE of them talk about "how functional it is." Lisp was created as a symbol processing language, and fairly much every interesting programming paradigm has been attached to it at one point in time or another. Good Common LISP code is NOT "filled with crazy recursive functional constructs" any more than good FORTH is filled with "crazy stack gyrations" - you may have *little bits* of such, but, as you suggest, that sort of code is indeed "crazy" and should be kept to small portions. Most CL code is fairly imperative. The rich set of data types and control structures have the effect that *hopefully* a fair bit of the code can be much more free of side-effects than the "pointer gyrations" that C/C++ often force you into, but it's only the sorts of perverse people that, in the Perl world, would prefer to write their code in Latin or Klingon, where you'd see "filled with crazy constructs" of *any* sort. Scheme (which dates back to the mid-'70s) takes much more the "functional" tack, but I prefer not to go into that :-) > I am snipping out your examples but they are good examples. I certainly > agree that LISP (functional programming in general) allows you to think > about what you're trying to do and express it in a better way than > imperative programming typically does. As to whether that is a good or bad > thing in general, IMO, it depends on your application. I've gotten into this > argument before and I certainly don't want to again (and I'm not sure it's > relevant anyway, see below). Suffice to say that I agree with you on the > surface level about LISP allowing you to represent your intentions better. I'd tend to call this "applicative" programming, and I suppose it's *something* of a branch off of functional programming. The place where it came from, originally, was the notion of "higher-order functions", typically called "map", where the idea is to apply some function to each element of a set. It's a very "Scheme" way to do things to define a function, and then use map (or mapcar!) to apply that function to each element of a list, and that looks "sorta functional." But this idea is sufficiently generally-useful that pretty much any reasonably modern language supports it in a native fashion, and I pointed out how to use it in "not-generally-considered-to-be-functional" languages like Perl and Python :-). So while Lisp may be in there at the "genesis", it is decidedly NOT about "crazy recursive functional constructs." >>> Are you implying that a for loop is a bad habit in any language? :) A >>> programmer's style comes from the programmer, not his/her reference >>> tools. >> >> I think that *numeric* for loops indeed are frequently a bad habit. >> >> This is the difference between looking at a computer as a "number >> processor" and a "symbol processor." We often get sucked into >> thinking the former, when the latter is a much more accurate way of >> looking at things, and is sometimes more convenient, to boot. > > I don't see why what you call "numeric for loops" to be bad. In some cases > you just have to do it. Why would we want to prevent anybody from being able > to return a sum of a set of numbers? There are perfectly legitimate reasons > to do this. If your argument is that the /language/ shouldn't allow you do > do this by using for loops because it's better to think of it as a something > different, then I think you're saying that you have something against the > syntax/semantics of the language. If you're trying to process "all the elements in this list," then being forced to create a numbering scheme for that list in order to process those elements certainly DOES seem like a bad thing to me. Today, I was writing some "billing" code in SQL. I was pretty happy with... insert into billing_results (customer, chargee, type, billing_plan, amount) select customer, chargee, type, billing_plan, amount from billing_pricing where billing_plan = i_billing_plan_name; I would have been much less happy with: create result set = [query of billing prices where plan = "plan name"]; count = get_count(result set); for i from 1 to count do insert into billing_results (....) values (result[i].customer, result[i].chargee, ...); done I don't care how many records there are; I don't care to do *anything* about tracking numbers - that's bookkeeping and complexity that gets forced on the programmer that I'd prefer NEVER to see. Best line ever heard from a motivational speaker... "You're wondering when you could call back to talk to me about this product you're trying to sell? Actually, NEVER works for me. Does NEVER work for you?" There are plenty of cases where having a number counter tied to a loop is completely useless because there is no reason why I want to know the number. Go process all the records - don't trouble me with how many there are. There are cases where the counter is essential, but I believe them to be exceptions rather than the rule. But if you're writing code in FORTRAN (at least, the variations that any of us would know about!), you have no such option. A DO loop requires tracking a counter and using that to identify what data you're working with. As Hugh mentioned, language sometimes shapes understanding. If all you know is FORTRAN, you may be unable to *imagine* writing code that lacks counters. I'm not saying loop counters must NEVER be used - just that there are plenty of cases where they aren't needed, and that this is one of the edges where computer languages differ in interesting ways. Trying to force identicalness between diverse languages seems mighty counterproductive to me. It seems very likely to force "lowest common denominator" usage that may be the *worst* of all worlds. CORBA had a pretty good example of this; it tried to be language agnostic, and mapping RPC interfacing between different languages with mighty different kinds of data structures meant that it was a pretty hostile thing to work with. It maps *fairly* well to Java. The language mapping for C++ is fairly complex, but doesn't require "jumping through hoops." Writing CORBA interfacing for C is *quite* strange because C isn't natively "object oriented," and the naming conventions get mighty ugly. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Jay London - "I was going to buy a book on hair loss, but the pages kept falling out." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 23:15:22 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:15:22 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <49496A6B.9020005-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> <20081217201603.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49496A6B.9020005@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20081217231522.GW5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 04:08:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > That was funny, thanks for the giggle. > > As an aside, I've got a note into abuse-QzBGVNF/z2itXF2fZOsJYA at public.gmane.org Curious if it will > find a human in the Bell behemoth. :) They are not known for providing service or support to people that pay them money, so what hope do you have? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 00:08:29 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:08:29 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <4949947D.3080303@rogers.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org --------- > >> http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 >> >> *sigh* > > Sympatico HSE SYMD20070326-CA > (NET-70-54-108-0-1) 70.54.108.0 - > 70.54.111.255 > > Obviously the world needs IP-geolocation with centimeter resolution. :-) If you use a nuke, you don't need centimeter resolution. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 00:51:03 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:51:03 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: <49495C70.20209-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> Message-ID: <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes > for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding > this org has a site license. > > They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about > it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. > > Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux > available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I > can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the > other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. > > Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start here: http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with their IBM/Lotus contact. BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 01:02:00 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:02:00 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <20081217231522.GW5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480D31.2080904@alteeve.com> <20081216162521.boupqrkm8g0wcs8k@easymail.pathcom.com> <494942CD.10901@alteeve.com> <20081217132700.h0lgvhe1wwkko4kw@easymail.pathcom.com> <20081217201603.GV5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49496A6B.9020005@alteeve.com> <20081217231522.GW5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4949A108.2020007@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 04:08:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> That was funny, thanks for the giggle. >> >> As an aside, I've got a note into abuse-QzBGVNF/z2itXF2fZOsJYA at public.gmane.org Curious if it will >> find a human in the Bell behemoth. :) >> > > They are not known for providing service or support to people that pay > them money, so what hope do you have? > > I found a complaint to the CRTC got results. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bpowell01-rxtnV0ftBwyoClj4AeEUq9i2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 03:10:36 2008 From: bpowell01-rxtnV0ftBwyoClj4AeEUq9i2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Brian Powell) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:10:36 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: <49499E77.4080200-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> Message-ID: <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding >> this org has a site license. >> >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. >> >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. >> >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. >> > > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 > > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start here: > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes > > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with > their IBM/Lotus contact. > > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your customer would accept that. -- Regards, Brian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 04:06:55 2008 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:06:55 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> I think he's talking about the client. In that case you can run the Lotus Client on ubuntu. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=222492 -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian Powell Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:11 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lotus Notes On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding >> this org has a site license. >> >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. >> >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. >> >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. >> > > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 > > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start here: > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes > > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with > their IBM/Lotus contact. > > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your customer would accept that. -- Regards, Brian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:14:27 2008 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:14:27 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> Message-ID: Interestingly - internally in IBM we've got excellent support for Lotus Notes, Sametime and Symphony on both Fedora and Ubuntu. For a long time it was exclusively RHEL4/5 based, but the internal community supported efforts are pretty impressive. I am presently using it on FC9, and was using it on Ubuntu 8.10! Let me see whether there is some initiative to expand this beyond the confines John. On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I think he's talking about the client. In that case you can run the Lotus > Client on ubuntu. > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=222492 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian > Powell > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:11 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lotus Notes > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott > wrote: > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> Hi there, > >> > >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes > >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding > >> this org has a site license. > >> > >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about > >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. > >> > >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux > >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I > >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the > >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. > >> > >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. > >> > > > > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: > > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 > > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 > > > > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for > > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start > here: > > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes > > > > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with > > their IBM/Lotus contact. > > > > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) > > > > -- > > Use OpenOffice.org > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on > RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen > it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes > wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your > customer would accept that. > > -- > Regards, > > Brian > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:06:57 2008 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:06:57 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> Message-ID: Interestingly - internally in IBM we've got excellent support for Lotus Notes, Sametime and Symphony on both Fedora and Ubuntu. For a long time it was exclusively RHEL4/5 based, but the internal community supported efforts I am presently using it on FC9, and was using it on Ubuntu 8.10! Let me see whether there is some initiative to expand this beyond the confines John. On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I think he's talking about the client. In that case you can run the Lotus > Client on ubuntu. > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=222492 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian > Powell > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:11 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lotus Notes > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott > wrote: > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> Hi there, > >> > >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes > >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding > >> this org has a site license. > >> > >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about > >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. > >> > >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux > >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I > >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the > >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. > >> > >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. > >> > > > > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: > > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 > > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 > > > > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for > > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start > here: > > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes > > > > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with > > their IBM/Lotus contact. > > > > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) > > > > -- > > Use OpenOffice.org > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on > RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen > it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes > wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your > customer would accept that. > > -- > Regards, > > Brian > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:07:21 2008 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> Message-ID: Oops On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:06 AM, John Miles wrote: > Interestingly - internally in IBM we've got excellent support for Lotus > Notes, Sametime and Symphony on both Fedora and Ubuntu. > For a long time it was exclusively RHEL4/5 based, but the internal > community supported efforts > I am presently using it on FC9, and was using it on Ubuntu 8.10! > Let me see whether there is some initiative to expand this beyond the > confines > > John. > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > >> I think he's talking about the client. In that case you can run the Lotus >> Client on ubuntu. >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=222492 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian >> Powell >> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:11 PM >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lotus Notes >> >> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott >> wrote: >> > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> >> Hi there, >> >> >> >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes >> >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding >> >> this org has a site license. >> >> >> >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about >> >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. >> >> >> >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux >> >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I >> >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the >> >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. >> >> >> >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. >> >> >> > >> > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: >> > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 >> > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 >> > >> > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for >> > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start >> here: >> > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes >> > >> > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with >> > their IBM/Lotus contact. >> > >> > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) >> > >> > -- >> > Use OpenOffice.org >> > >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > >> >> Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on >> RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen >> it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes >> wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your >> customer would accept that. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Brian >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:08:04 2008 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:08:04 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> Message-ID: oops. On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:07 AM, John Miles wrote: > Oops > > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:06 AM, John Miles wrote: > >> Interestingly - internally in IBM we've got excellent support for Lotus >> Notes, Sametime and Symphony on both Fedora and Ubuntu. >> For a long time it was exclusively RHEL4/5 based, but the internal >> community supported efforts >> I am presently using it on FC9, and was using it on Ubuntu 8.10! >> Let me see whether there is some initiative to expand this beyond the >> confines >> >> John. >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: >> >>> I think he's talking about the client. In that case you can run the Lotus >>> Client on ubuntu. >>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=222492 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian >>> Powell >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:11 PM >>> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lotus Notes >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM, James Knott >>> wrote: >>> > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >>> >> Hi there, >>> >> >>> >> I'm now working with an organization which makes heavy use of Notes >>> >> for its mail, calendars and instant messaging. It's my understanding >>> >> this org has a site license. >>> >> >>> >> They've Notes installed it on my Windows partition but know zero about >>> >> it (let alone offer support) running under Linux. >>> >> >>> >> Some of the guides I've read online refer to Notes binaries for Linux >>> >> available at the IBM website but I haven't been able to find them. I >>> >> can use the email tools under Linux using Notes' webmail, but the >>> >> other facilities are unavailable until I install the native software. >>> >> >>> >> Can anyone here help? FWIW, the intended target is Ubuntu 8.10. >>> >> >>> > >>> > A couple of seconds of hard Googling turned up these: >>> > http://www.nsftools.com/NL7 >>> > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=463&uid=swg27007909 >>> > >>> > And there is a lot more info. I don't know that Notes is available for >>> > download, as it is a proprietary product., but you may want to start >>> here: >>> > http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/notes >>> > >>> > Perhaps you can arrange to have your customer put you in touch with >>> > their IBM/Lotus contact. >>> > >>> > BTW, I've probably got an OS/2 version here, if that helps. ;-) >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Use OpenOffice.org >>> > >>> > -- >>> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> > >>> >>> Domino / Notes will only be supported by IBM if it is installed on >>> RedHat Enterprise Linux or SuSe Linux Enterprise server. I have seen >>> it running under other distro's including Ubuntu but if something goes >>> wrong IBM has a hard stance of no support and I am not sure your >>> customer would accept that. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Brian >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 16:52:34 2008 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:52:34 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras Message-ID: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> Thinking about a digital camera for Christmas, I'm thinking pretty basic, but it should produce video as well, say 480 res. I'm hoping to find a device that doesn't require any special software to interface with my computer, would be nice if it just showed up as a removable media. Anyone have any experiences in this area? Thanks! -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:10:04 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:10:04 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <20081218115234.0e11a824-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > Thinking about a digital camera for Christmas, I'm thinking pretty basic, but > it should produce video as well, say 480 res. I'm hoping to find a device that > doesn't require any special software to interface with my computer, would be > nice if it just showed up as a removable media. > > Anyone have any experiences in this area? > Just get one that writes to Compact Flash or any other removable media that has a reader with a USB interface. You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you are doing wireless while you shoot, of course). Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:27:48 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:27:48 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A83EC.5050604-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> Stephen wrote: > JoeHill wrote: >> Thinking about a digital camera for Christmas, I'm thinking pretty >> basic, but >> it should produce video as well, say 480 res. I'm hoping to find a >> device that >> doesn't require any special software to interface with my computer, >> would be >> nice if it just showed up as a removable media. >> >> Anyone have any experiences in this area? >> > Just get one that writes to Compact Flash or any other removable media > that has a reader with a USB interface. > > You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you > are doing wireless while you shoot, of course). Why is that? My Canon p&s and Pentax SLR don't have a problem with connecting directly via usb. I'd expect no less considering the price and quality. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:33:09 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:33:09 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A83EC.5050604-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Stephen wrote: > You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you are > doing wireless while you shoot, of course). When cameras did the "bad old days" thing of implementing custom USB interfacing to do all sorts of wacky things, I'd agree. If the camera implements the USB Storage interface, so you can mount it and see its storage as a set of filesystems, then it seems to me that "never" was a bit too long a timeframe... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Rita Rudner - "I was a vegetarian until I started leaning toward the sunlight." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:36:04 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:36:04 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8814.6040404-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: >> You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you >> are doing wireless while you shoot, of course). >> > > Why is that? My Canon p&s and Pentax SLR don't have a problem with > connecting directly via usb. I'd expect no less considering the price > and quality. > There is a small chance that the camera can be damaged. Not really an issue with a consumer camera. But when you use a body that costs many thousands of dollars, why take a chance? For that matter, why take a chance with a consumer camera? A card reader costs just a few dollars. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:43:03 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:43:03 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Stephen wrote: >> You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you are >> doing wireless while you shoot, of course). > > When cameras did the "bad old days" thing of implementing custom USB > interfacing to do all sorts of wacky things, I'd agree. > > If the camera implements the USB Storage interface, so you can mount > it and see its storage as a set of filesystems, then it seems to me > that "never" was a bit too long a timeframe... Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any recommendations there? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:49:45 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:49:45 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8BA7.4040802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <494A8D39.1080808@rogers.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries > there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and > my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any > recommendations there? > > I have a Kensington reader and it handles my Compact Flash 8 gig cards no problems. I have had the reader a few years now. It also reads Smartmedia, Multimedia, Securedigital and Memory stick. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:52:39 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:52:39 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8D39.1080808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> <494A8D39.1080808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <494A8DE7.5000709@utoronto.ca> Stephen wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries >> there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and >> my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any >> recommendations there? >> >> > I have a Kensington reader and it handles my Compact Flash 8 gig cards > no problems. > > I have had the reader a few years now. > > It also reads Smartmedia, Multimedia, Securedigital and Memory stick. I'll have to grab one of those. Mine only reads up to 2gb on Linux and Windows. I use the reader mostly because I forget to turn the camera off when downloading images from it via usb ;) Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:55:10 2008 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:55:10 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8BA7.4040802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <494A8E7E.9010004@telly.org> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries > there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and > my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any > recommendations there? > High capacity SD cards use a slightly different spec (but don't ask me the details) while keeping the same shape and interface. Try a card reader that explicitly supports "SDHC" (not all do) and see if that makes a difference. As for the question of whether one transfers the media by swapping the card versus by USB, I would think that the cable method would involve less physical wear-and-tear than constantly inserting and removing SD cards from both the camera and the reader. Once installed in the card reader, though, I would expect that the SD's transfer speed would be faster than that through a USB cable, though I could be wrong here. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:55:39 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:55:39 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <494A8E9B.5050804@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Stephen wrote: >> You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you are >> doing wireless while you shoot, of course). > > When cameras did the "bad old days" thing of implementing custom USB > interfacing to do all sorts of wacky things, I'd agree. > > If the camera implements the USB Storage interface, so you can mount > it and see its storage as a set of filesystems, then it seems to me > that "never" was a bit too long a timeframe... You shouldn't have to wait any longer than for the Leafs to win the Stanley Cup. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:57:45 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:57:45 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8E7E.9010004-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> <494A8E7E.9010004@telly.org> Message-ID: <494A8F19.9030901@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries >> there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and >> my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any >> recommendations there? >> > > High capacity SD cards use a slightly different spec (but don't ask me > the details) while keeping the same shape and interface. Try a card > reader that explicitly supports "SDHC" (not all do) and see if that > makes a difference. > > As for the question of whether one transfers the media by swapping the > card versus by USB, I would think that the cable method would involve > less physical wear-and-tear than constantly inserting and removing SD > cards from both the camera and the reader. Once installed in the card > reader, though, I would expect that the SD's transfer speed would be > faster than that through a USB cable, though I could be wrong here. Many card readers are connected via USB, so... -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:04:34 2008 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:04:34 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A83EC.5050604-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081218140434.266af04a@teksavvy.com> Stephen wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > Thinking about a digital camera for Christmas, I'm thinking pretty basic, > > but it should produce video as well, say 480 res. I'm hoping to find a > > device that doesn't require any special software to interface with my > > computer, would be nice if it just showed up as a removable media. > > > > Anyone have any experiences in this area? > > > Just get one that writes to Compact Flash or any other removable media > that has a reader with a USB interface. > > You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you > are doing wireless while you shoot, of course). Are the video formats used by most cameras compatible with Linux, then? -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 18:28:23 2008 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (Mike Oliver) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:28:23 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081218132823.p5g2wssnqcko88gc@mail.math.yorku.ca> Quoting Christopher Browne : > If the camera implements the USB Storage interface, so you can mount > it and see its storage as a set of filesystems, then it seems to me > that "never" was a bit too long a timeframe... My camera doesn't show up as a block device when you plug the USB link into the computer. You can get the pictures via the PTP interface but I don't really like doing that as it messes with the EXIF tags. So I just pull the card and put it in a card reader, and then I can mount it normally. I hadn't heard that some readers don't let you have access to all 4G of a 4G SDHC card. I have one of those cards and haven't had any problems, but then I've never had so much as a single gig of photos on it at any one time. Maybe I should check that out.... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:21:17 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:21:17 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8A04.9000708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:36:04PM -0500, Stephen wrote: > There is a small chance that the camera can be damaged. Not really an > issue with a consumer camera. By that logic you could damage the camera through static discharge while taking the memory card in or out. Sounds like a load of crap to me. > But when you use a body that costs many thousands of dollars, why take a > chance? > > For that matter, why take a chance with a consumer camera? A card reader > costs just a few dollars. And the USB cable works fine too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:23:32 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:23:32 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8BA7.4040802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20081218192332.GY5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:43:03PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Any cable I've used with a camera has a ferrite core, so no worries > there (unless there's bad voltage or data being transferred?). That and > my USB card reader can't read my 4gb fat16 formatted SD cards.. Any > recommendations there? 4GB cards are either SDHC (and hence FAT32 formated by the spec), or they are proprietary cards that vaguely follow the SD design, but are not SD cards. There is no such thing as an SD compliant 4GB card. An SD compatible reader has no reason to try to support it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:25:03 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:25:03 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <494A8D39.1080808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8BA7.4040802@utoronto.ca> <494A8D39.1080808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20081218192503.GZ5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:49:45PM -0500, Stephen wrote: > I have a Kensington reader and it handles my Compact Flash 8 gig cards > no problems. Sure but compact flash is parallel bus IDE interface. SD only goes to 2GB, and SDHC takes over at 4GB, except for the non SD cards that are 4GB and happen to work with some SD devices. Compact flash should have no issue going much higher. > I have had the reader a few years now. > > It also reads Smartmedia, Multimedia, Securedigital and Memory stick. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:26:47 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:26:47 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <20081218140434.266af04a-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <20081218140434.266af04a@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20081218192647.GA5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 02:04:34PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > Are the video formats used by most cameras compatible with Linux, then? I think most use a MJPEG style compression and should work in general. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:30:37 2008 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:30:37 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes In-Reply-To: References: <49495C70.20209@telly.org> <49499E77.4080200@rogers.com> <96365e610812171910ya2e5db4t4cd284b96c49fbe6@mail.gmail.com> <07cc01c960c6$111ceff0$3356cfd0$@com> Message-ID: <20081218193037.GB5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 09:14:27AM -0500, John Miles wrote: > Interestingly - internally in IBM we've got excellent support for Lotus > Notes, Sametime and Symphony on both Fedora and Ubuntu. > For a long time it was exclusively RHEL4/5 based, but the internal community > supported efforts are pretty impressive. > I am presently using it on FC9, and was using it on Ubuntu 8.10! > Let me see whether there is some initiative to expand this beyond the > confines I have seen a lot of IBM people with LUD (LTC Ubuntu Desktop) running on them, so apparently for desktop/laptop use some divisions of IBM actually have their own Ubuntu variant. So I too imagine they have no issue with ubuntu as a client. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 20:42:16 2008 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:42:16 -0500 Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0812181242s3d011428j86207ffc9c73fdc3@mail.gmail.com> I know a few companies that still use them, and back in college (9-10 years ago now) we actually did some work with COBOL on a VAX/VMS. Sometimes having skills in uncommon things can be very helpful if the job market goes downhill :-) For those that might be interested, I found this section on HP's site which seems fairly detailed. Not a book, but you could probably browse around or download the HTML http://h30266.www3.hp.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6017/6017pro_contents.html On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 2:48 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > | OT, but does anyone know any local bookstores that would carry books > | on VMS/OpenVMS? > > I'm interested: why do you want to learn about VMS? > > That might affect what book you want to read. > > My impression has been that VMS's time has passed. This may well be > because of the circles I travel within. > > If you just want to learn about different OSes, there are probably > more worthy ones. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 00:14:53 2008 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:14:53 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? Message-ID: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> hey folks, i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the board. and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 01:16:28 2008 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:16:28 -0500 Subject: Any ALSA experts here? Message-ID: <494AF5EC.8060207@telly.org> Hey all, I bought a USB webcam for a computer (running Ubuntu 8.10) that includes an integrated microphone (The Microsoft NX-6000, they still make decent hardware...) In a reverse situation from most user problems, I have the webcam working fine but not the microphone. The response to `arecord -l` gives: **** List of CAPTURE Hardware Devices **** card 0: Intel [HDA Intel], device 0: AD198x Analog [AD198x Analog] Subdevices: 2/2 Subdevice #0: subdevice #0 Subdevice #1: subdevice #1 card 1: NX6000 [Microsoft? LifeCam NX-6000], device 0: USB Audio [USB Audio] Subdevices: 1/1 Subdevice #0: subdevice #0 I assume the Intel device relates to the conventional microphone jacks on the computer. If I try to run `arecord -D plughw:1,0 ./RecTest-1,0.wav`, I get: Recording WAVE './RecTest-1,0.wav' : Unsigned 8 bit, Rate 8000 Hz, Mono ALSA lib pcm_params.c:2135:(snd1_pcm_hw_refine_slave) Slave PCM not usable arecord: set_params:932: Broken configuration for this PCM: no configurations available The output of `dmesg` related to the device appears to be [ 11.815930] uvcvideo: Found UVC 1.00 device Microsoft LifeCam NX-6000 (045e:00f8) [ 11.816287] uvcvideo: Failed to query (135) UVC control 1 (unit 0) : -32 (exp. 26). [ 11.824524] input: Microsoft LifeCam NX-6000 as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1a.7/usb4/4-6/4-6.2/4-6.2:1.0/input/input6 [ 11.852626] usbcore: registered new interface driver snd-usb-audio [ 11.852725] usbcore: registered new interface driver uvcvideo [ 11.852728] USB Video Class driver (v0.1.0) Can anyone suggest what my next steps are? Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 01:23:02 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:23:02 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <494AF776.8050606@alteeve.com> Matt Price wrote: > hey folks, > > i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope > it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp > video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the > board. > > and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... > > thanks as always, > > matt I've got a couple AGPs, what do you mean by west end? I'm in Oakville. I work downtown, but I won't be in again until Monday. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 01:48:04 2008 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:48:04 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <20081218192117.GX5681-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Mike, 2008/12/18 Lennart Sorensen : > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:36:04PM -0500, Stephen wrote: >> There is a small chance that the camera can be damaged. Not really an >> issue with a consumer camera. > > By that logic you could damage the camera through static discharge while > taking the memory card in or out. Sounds like a load of crap to me. > I also feel that damage to camera due to plugging in USB is very unlikely. If in fact this is the case, the camera manufacture should never avail that facility. Providing it is implicitly saying, go ahead, plug it to your computer, its safe. Think about it, how many people do you think plug their camera to their computer. Millions. I have never heard of this concern until today and I hope I read industry crap widely enough. How many others are in dark. >> But when you use a body that costs many thousands of dollars, why take a >> chance? >> >> For that matter, why take a chance with a consumer camera? A card reader >> costs just a few dollars. > > And the USB cable works fine too. > Ah, I feel like we left some important discussion here. Which camera offer the best picture when taken in a poorly light area, the camera that has the best focus sytem of course at the best price. I hated a camera that I used to own because at night, I ended with a no image if I did not use flash. Now, if my eyes can see something in the dark, why shouldn't it be possible to have a picture in such environment? Ok, this is just my pet peeve, but interesting info to have in mind when shopping Regards, William > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 03:36:34 2008 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:36:34 -0500 Subject: Any ALSA experts here? In-Reply-To: <494AF5EC.8060207-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <494AF5EC.8060207@telly.org> Message-ID: <20081218223634.d53cd5f2.hgibson@eol.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:16:28 -0500 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Hey all, > > I bought a USB webcam for a computer (running Ubuntu 8.10) that includes > an integrated microphone (The Microsoft NX-6000, they still make decent > hardware...) > > In a reverse situation from most user problems, I have the webcam > working fine but not the microphone. Evan, Have you tried playing with a mixer yet? This solves most of my sound problems. It probably causes most of them, too. :( -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:19:39 2008 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:19:39 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: <20081218140434.266af04a-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <20081218140434.266af04a@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20081218231939.f4d9d991.hgibson@eol.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:04:34 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > Stephen wrote: > > > JoeHill wrote: > > > Thinking about a digital camera for Christmas, I'm thinking pretty basic, > > > but it should produce video as well, say 480 res. I'm hoping to find a > > > device that doesn't require any special software to interface with my > > > computer, would be nice if it just showed up as a removable media. > > > > > > Anyone have any experiences in this area? > > > > > Just get one that writes to Compact Flash or any other removable media > > that has a reader with a USB interface. > > > > You should never connect a camera directly to a computer. (Unless you > > are doing wireless while you shoot, of course). > > Are the video formats used by most cameras compatible with Linux, then? Joe, You will have to survey us and find out what video format most people's cameras use. My Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ3 writes AVI files, and Fedora Core 6+ reads them. I don't know about earlier versions of Fedora. I bought a 4Mb SDHC card for my camera, and my USB devices would not read it. My computer mounted and read my camera just fine. I now have a SanDisk Imagemate that explicitly supports SDHC, and my SDHC card works fine. gPhoto is no longer installed with Fedora Core, so there is actually no support for any camera, unless you are willing to install from source. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 06:07:43 2008 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:07:43 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20081219010743.0ddd73ab@teksavvy.com> Matt Price wrote: > i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope > it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp > video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the > board. > > and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... > > thanks as always, I'm in Etobicoke, around East Mall and Dundas. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 09:07:44 2008 From: mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Mervin Natividad) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 04:07:44 -0500 Subject: AUTO: Mervin Natividad is out of the office (returning 02/01/2009) Message-ID: I am out of the office until 02/01/2009. Note: This is an automated response to your message Re: [TLUG]: OT: spare video card? sent on 12/19/08 1:07:43. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 09:23:44 2008 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 04:23:44 -0500 Subject: difference in the tail command between most Linux distros and Fedora In-Reply-To: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200812151016.41784.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <494B6820.3060605@ve3syb.ca> bob 295 wrote: > If you look at the reference for the tail command it talks to the option to > specify a +n so that tail starts n lines from beginning of file. [snip] > tail +3 bob > > should dump lines 3-5. > > Except on Fedora systems. Did you forget to try the command "man tail"? It listed the information you need. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 15:38:49 2008 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:38:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1229701129.494bc00970382@webmail.golden.net> Quoting Matt Price : > hey folks, > > i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope > it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp > video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the > board. > > and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... > > thanks as always, > > matt > > I'm at Winston Churchill 401 I have a spare AGP you can "have". I work tomorrow though so if you want it Saturday you'll have to come to 410 and Steeles. -------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through WebMail | Courtesy of Execulink -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:04:33 2008 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:04:33 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <494AF776.8050606-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> <494AF776.8050606@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 20:23 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Matt Price wrote: > > hey folks, > > > > i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope > > it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp > > video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the > > board. > > > > and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... > > > > thanks as always, > > > > matt > > I've got a couple AGPs, what do you mean by west end? I'm in Oakville. I > work downtown, but I won't be in again until Monday. > > Madi hi madi and everyone else, by west end i meant west end toronto -- which i guess really means downtown, as i'm at bloor and dufferin. doesn't look like i'll be driving anywhere this weekend -- my car's a bit unreliable in this kind of weather -- so just wanted to say thanks to everyone, i'll try to figure out some kind of solution in the short term, & if there's someone downtown who's got something for me next week that'd be lovely. thanks again to everyone, this ocmmunity has always been generous to me. matt > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:13:50 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> <494AF776.8050606@alteeve.com> <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <494BC83E.2090102@rogers.com> Matt Price wrote: > On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 20:23 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Matt Price wrote: >> >>> hey folks, >>> >>> i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope >>> it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp >>> video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the >>> board. >>> >>> and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... >>> >>> thanks as always, >>> >>> matt >>> >> I've got a couple AGPs, what do you mean by west end? I'm in Oakville. I >> work downtown, but I won't be in again until Monday. >> >> Madi >> > > hi madi and everyone else, > > by west end i meant west end toronto -- which i guess really means > downtown, as i'm at bloor and dufferin. > > doesn't look like i'll be driving anywhere this weekend -- my car's a > bit unreliable in this kind of weather -- so just wanted to say thanks > to everyone, i'll try to figure out some kind of solution in the short > term, & if there's someone downtown who's got something for me next week > that'd be lovely. thanks again to everyone, this ocmmunity has always > been generous to me. > > Some how I came up with the mental image of some old guy, in battered clothes, hand out, asking "Buddy, can you spare a video card?" ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:27:53 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:27:53 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux Message-ID: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> Recently, Matt Price posted to the Toronto Public Library weblog about an ongoing problem with TPL's website: it's been very slow with Linux browsers. We knew about it but didn't know why. Matt found us an answer, I got in touch with him, and now that answer is posted to our website. Many thanks to Matt, and to Sacha, who Matt says put him on the right track. http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/hel_tro_index.jsp#linux Here's the text: ----- Some customers have reported slowness accessing Toronto Public Library websites on computers running the Linux operating system. The problem is most likely caused by Linux's use of strict internet routing and firewall settings. We're working on a fix at TPL, but you can also solve the problem on your computer. Please only attempt this if you're familiar with the command line and editing files in /etc/ . First, test the fix by opening a terminal or command prompt with root privileges and issue this command: echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale This change is only effective until your next reboot. Try visiting some of TPL's pages. If this fix is successful, make the change permanent by opening /etc/sysctl.conf and adding this line: net.ipv4.tcp_default_win_scale = 0 Save the file and exit. The library website should load quickly from now on. ----- I suspect there are people on this list who will read this and notice that one possible cause of this is that TPL's routers are misconfigured. I'd like to point out that I'm on the web team, and have nothing to do with the network gear. And I'd also like to point out that heckling won't help. On the other hand, clear details of what's wrong and how to fix it could be passed along to the right people and speed the process of a more general fix. References: http://www.linuxnet.ch/index.php/TCP_Window_Scaling http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1323.txt -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:07:25 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:07:25 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> <494AF776.8050606@alteeve.com> <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <494BD4CD.5060109@utoronto.ca> Matt Price wrote: > On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 20:23 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Matt Price wrote: >>> hey folks, >>> >>> i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope >>> it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp >>> video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the >>> board. >>> >>> and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... >>> >>> thanks as always, >>> >>> matt >> I've got a couple AGPs, what do you mean by west end? I'm in Oakville. I >> work downtown, but I won't be in again until Monday. >> >> Madi > > hi madi and everyone else, > > by west end i meant west end toronto -- which i guess really means > downtown, as i'm at bloor and dufferin. > > doesn't look like i'll be driving anywhere this weekend -- my car's a > bit unreliable in this kind of weather -- so just wanted to say thanks > to everyone, i'll try to figure out some kind of solution in the short > term, & if there's someone downtown who's got something for me next week > that'd be lovely. thanks again to everyone, this ocmmunity has always > been generous to me. I have an nvidia agp card and can drop by the linuxcaffe sometime this afternoon or tomorrow. Offlist? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:28:25 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:28:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > My impression has been that VMS's time has passed. This may well be > because of the circles I travel within. It is still used out there in many mission critical systems - as are a lot of more exotic OSes like QNX & OS-9 (Microware, not Apple). It's a shame that some of these OSes didn't become more popular as many of them had capabilities 20 or 30 years ago that put modern mainstream OSes to shame[1]. If OpenVMS were OSS I think it might really have a 2nd chance at success. [1] Unix/Linux included. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:45:27 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:45:27 -0500 Subject: GRAH!?! Message-ID: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. ... At the library: http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/207.61.160.163 ... Through Bell (home or net cafe?): http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 And just now from Toronto (City Hall?): http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/206.130.173.55 Using the timestamps, could a list admin see if a registered member logged into their email from one of those IP addresses? Given the hateful, bigoted nature of the vandalisms I am getting quite upset with this ... friend. I know he's a TLUG member because the first vandalism came withing minutes of initially mentioning the project on this list, and that was the first public announcement of the project I've made. Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:38:26 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:38:26 -0500 Subject: OT: spare video card? In-Reply-To: <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> References: <1229645693.2168.467.camel@localhost> <494AF776.8050606@alteeve.com> <1229702673.2168.2749.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <494BCE02.5000801@alteeve.com> Matt Price wrote: > On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 20:23 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Matt Price wrote: >>> hey folks, >>> >>> i've just fried another video card on my desktop -- or at least i hope >>> it's that, and not the mb. i'm wondering if anyone has any pci or agp >>> video cards lying around that i could buy or borrow to check out the >>> board. >>> >>> and if you're in the west end that's a bonus... >>> >>> thanks as always, >>> >>> matt >> I've got a couple AGPs, what do you mean by west end? I'm in Oakville. I >> work downtown, but I won't be in again until Monday. >> >> Madi > > hi madi and everyone else, > > by west end i meant west end toronto -- which i guess really means > downtown, as i'm at bloor and dufferin. > > doesn't look like i'll be driving anywhere this weekend -- my car's a > bit unreliable in this kind of weather -- so just wanted to say thanks > to everyone, i'll try to figure out some kind of solution in the short > term, & if there's someone downtown who's got something for me next week > that'd be lovely. thanks again to everyone, this ocmmunity has always > been generous to me. > > matt If you still need on on Sunday, drop a line here or to me directly and I'll bring one in with me. I'll be a little south of Bloor off Yonge for the first half and down at Adelaide and Yonge for the later half of the day. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:20:19 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:20:19 -0500 Subject: Linux friendly cameras In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280812190920n1ce17262oc971c450193ea9a5@mail.gmail.com> 2008/12/18 William Muriithi : > Ah, I feel like we left some important discussion here. Which camera > offer the best picture when taken in a poorly light area, the camera > that has the best focus sytem of course at the best price. I hated a > camera that I used to own because at night, I ended with a no image if > I did not use flash. Now, if my eyes can see something in the dark, > why shouldn't it be possible to have a picture in such environment? > Ok, this is just my pet peeve, but interesting info to have in mind > when shopping http://www.dpreview.com/ offers full technical specs for almost every digital camera ever made (including video resolution and fps ... but not necessarily the format it seems, sorry). They also provide extensive reviews of many of the cameras. To address Joe's original question, I'd like to suggest (along with a few others) taking the card out of the camera and plugging it into a card reader. This is very easy and avoids all compatibility problems, and (a minor and as yet unmentioned detail) doesn't use the camera battery. Or require you to carry what's often a proprietary cable. I have a Nikon 5400 which spent six months in southeast Asia with me, and has now taken over 7000 photos: wear on the CF slot and cards is a non-issue despite the frequency with which I've pulled them out and put them in. It's designed for that and you'd have to be really rough on them to cause significant damage. The same thing applies to SD cards or pretty much any other removable media. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:24:55 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:24:55 -0500 Subject: VMS books In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0812170741n3667b5bag27815b6862f66b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > It's a shame that some of these OSes didn't become more popular I worked with VMS for about a dozen years and still miss some of its features. It was easy to tune, the structure of file mapping on disk was sane and easy to use, the "system service" APIs were well defined and documented, distributed lock management, network-aware file specifications.... Bah, I sound old. :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:40:09 2008 From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:40:09 -0500 Subject: (OT) Cameras in low light In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:48:04PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > ... > Ah, I feel like we left some important discussion here. Which camera > offer the best picture when taken in a poorly light area, the camera > that has the best focus sytem of course at the best price. I hated a > camera that I used to own because at night, I ended with a no image if > I did not use flash. Now, if my eyes can see something in the dark, > why shouldn't it be possible to have a picture in such environment? > Ok, this is just my pet peeve, but interesting info to have in mind > when shopping > ... The problem is the amount of "noise" in the camera's digital-analog converter. If you turn up the gain (this is the camera's ISO setting) too much, you get more noise than anything else. Noise reduction techniques can only do so much. So there's a limit on how high your camera can set its ISO. If you're interested in shooting in dim light, here's some things to look for in a camera: If you can afford it, go for a DSLR rather than a point-and-shoot. The larger sensors in the DSLRs are less noisy. If you've got the cash, look for a "full frame" DSLR. Look for a large aperture -- this is usually indicated on the lens; it will read something like "5.0-20.0mm 1:2.8-5.8" or "5.0-20.0mm F2.8/5.8". The "F-number" (or that ratio) indicates the aperture size -- smaller numbers mean a larger aperture, and better performance in dim light. If you're going to shoot scenes that aren't moving, look for a camera that can handle long exposures (look at the camera's shutter speed in the specifications -- the longer you can set the shutter speed, the less light you need). You need to use a tripod to do this, though. HTH JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:47:06 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:47:06 -0500 Subject: (OT) Cameras in low light In-Reply-To: References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <494BDE1A.3000003@utoronto.ca> John Vetterli wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:48:04PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >> ... >> Ah, I feel like we left some important discussion here. Which camera >> offer the best picture when taken in a poorly light area, the camera >> that has the best focus sytem of course at the best price. I hated a >> camera that I used to own because at night, I ended with a no image if >> I did not use flash. Now, if my eyes can see something in the dark, >> why shouldn't it be possible to have a picture in such environment? >> Ok, this is just my pet peeve, but interesting info to have in mind >> when shopping >> ... > > The problem is the amount of "noise" in the camera's digital-analog > converter. If you turn up the gain (this is the camera's ISO setting) > too much, you get more noise than anything else. Noise reduction > techniques can only do so much. So there's a limit on how high your > camera can set its ISO. > > If you're interested in shooting in dim light, here's some things to > look for in a camera: > > If you can afford it, go for a DSLR rather than a point-and-shoot. The > larger sensors in the DSLRs are less noisy. If you've got the cash, > look for a "full frame" DSLR. > > Look for a large aperture -- this is usually indicated on the lens; it > will read something like "5.0-20.0mm 1:2.8-5.8" or "5.0-20.0mm > F2.8/5.8". The "F-number" (or that ratio) indicates the aperture size > -- smaller numbers mean a larger aperture, and better performance in dim > light. > > If you're going to shoot scenes that aren't moving, look for a camera > that can handle long exposures (look at the camera's shutter speed in > the specifications -- the longer you can set the shutter speed, the > less light you need). You need to use a tripod to do this, though. Full frame, APS-C, 4:3, the sensor format (while it does matter a little) won't make a bit of difference without good lenses. Seriously, if going the DSLR route, lenses are the most important part. Sounds like you're after the so called "fast fifty", that is a 50mm prime lens with maximum aperture of f1.4 (or lower but those are pricey). Here's an example with one handheld, f1.4 at 1/20s, iso400. My camera is not full frame and I'd happily make 24"x36" prints with it's measly 10mpx APS-C sensor. http://flickr.com/photos/jamonation/3090300056/ It's all in the glass.. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:22:29 2008 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:22:29 -0500 Subject: GRAH!?! In-Reply-To: <494BCFA7.6010705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1229710949.2168.2923.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 11:45 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an > unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. > > ... At the library: > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/207.61.160.163 > > ... Through Bell (home or net cafe?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 > > And just now from Toronto (City Hall?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/206.130.173.55 > > Using the timestamps, could a list admin see if a registered member > logged into their email from one of those IP addresses? Given the > hateful, bigoted nature of the vandalisms I am getting quite upset with > this ... friend. > > I know he's a TLUG member because the first vandalism came withing > minutes of initially mentioning the project on this list, and that was > the first public announcement of the project I've made. > i don't have any info about this but just wanted to say sorry to hear abou this, how gross. matt > Thanks! > > Madi > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:46:53 2008 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:46:53 -0500 Subject: GRAH!?! In-Reply-To: <1229710949.2168.2923.camel@localhost> References: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> <1229710949.2168.2923.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0812191046o3e40d04by84fc6e1006ac8547@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Matt Price wrote: > On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 11:45 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an >> unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. >> >> ... At the library: >> http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/207.61.160.163 >> >> ... Through Bell (home or net cafe?): >> http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 >> >> And just now from Toronto (City Hall?): >> http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/206.130.173.55 >> >> Using the timestamps, could a list admin see if a registered member >> logged into their email from one of those IP addresses? Given the >> hateful, bigoted nature of the vandalisms I am getting quite upset with >> this ... friend. >> >> I know he's a TLUG member because the first vandalism came withing >> minutes of initially mentioning the project on this list, and that was >> the first public announcement of the project I've made. >> > > i don't have any info about this but just wanted to say sorry to hear > abou this, how gross. Can't say as I've seen messages like these ever directed to Linux & FOSS users/developers. I'll spare the list the actual comments (the CtC's recent changes page has them if you really want to know) but I also find them disturbing. I don't believe that there are any appropriate places to spread messages of hate, but least of all are places of learning or sharing and open communities such as TLUG or the CtC wiki. Isn't there enough bluddy trouble in the world already? To the vandal: I was going to add a special message for you but you're just not worth my time. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 19:24:52 2008 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:24:52 -0500 Subject: GRAH!?! In-Reply-To: <494BCFA7.6010705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: All three of those IPs resolve to 43.6667, -79.4168 according to http://www.maxmind.com/app/locate_ip, which is in the Bathurst/Bloor area of Toronto. That doesn't tell us a lot. The host command shows the following for 70.54.110.62: 62.110.54.70.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer bas2-toronto02-1177972286.dsl.bell.ca. So it's probably a Sympatico DSL customer, even if it's not this particular customer. Hmm. Irritating. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an > unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. > > ... At the library: > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/207.61.160.163 > > ... Through Bell (home or net cafe?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 > > And just now from Toronto (City Hall?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/206.130.173.55 > > Using the timestamps, could a list admin see if a registered member logged > into their email from one of those IP addresses? Given the hateful, bigoted > nature of the vandalisms I am getting quite upset with this ... friend. > > I know he's a TLUG member because the first vandalism came withing minutes > of initially mentioning the project on this list, and that was the first > public announcement of the project I've made. > > Thanks! > > Madi > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 19:44:59 2008 From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:44:59 -0500 Subject: (OT) Cameras in low light In-Reply-To: <494BDE1A.3000003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20081218115234.0e11a824@teksavvy.com> <494A83EC.5050604@rogers.com> <494A8814.6040404@utoronto.ca> <494A8A04.9000708@rogers.com> <20081218192117.GX5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <494BDE1A.3000003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:47:06PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > John Vetterli wrote: > > ... [a bunch of boring stuff] ... > Full frame, APS-C, 4:3, the sensor format (while it does matter a > little) won't make a bit of difference without good lenses. Seriously, > if going the DSLR route, lenses are the most important part. Sounds like > you're after the so called "fast fifty", that is a 50mm prime lens with > maximum aperture of f1.4 (or lower but those are pricey). > Here's an example with one handheld, f1.4 at 1/20s, iso400. My camera is > not full frame and I'd happily make 24"x36" prints with it's measly > 10mpx APS-C sensor. http://flickr.com/photos/jamonation/3090300056/ It's > all in the glass.. Fair enough. My comments were more pointed more towards avoiding sensor noise in low-light conditions, and ignored the gazillion other factors in making a good photo. (But don't underestimate the value of a kit lens.) JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:24:43 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:24:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: GRAH!?! In-Reply-To: <494BCFA7.6010705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an > unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. I just looked over the comments this person made on CtC. Hatefulness like this represents the worst of humanity. It seem to me the vandal is just small minded and has a lot of time on their hands. Why do these people have so much trouble just lettings others be? I recommend blocking anon editing of the Wiki. If the vandal wants to continue their escapades they will need to create an account which will slow them down a bit. You may even want to require account creation to be authorised by yourself. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:17:26 2008 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:17:26 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <4949704D.90500-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> <49495B81.8050101@ualberta.ca> <4949704D.90500@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <494C0156.3040402@ualberta.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > Inline reply (sorry, but several good points I'd like to address). Is inline reply against this list's etiquette or something? You've apologized twice. It's second-nature for me to do this. Is isn't frowned-upon in general, is it? > Marc Lanctot wrote: >> Maybe it's easiest to illustrate with an example. I have lots of >> experience with language X and Y, but now because I work for company C >> I have to use language Z. (bummer!) >> >> So, I coding along happily (or unhappily, as it were) in language Z >> and I find myself not knowing how to pass variables by reference. >> >> Step 1: I invoke Code-to-Code. First thing I do is lookup "passing >> variables by reference in function calls". I find it, I'm happy. I get >> sent to a page (this concept's profile) called "Passing variables by >> reference to functions". I also see a list of source/target languages. >> >> Step 2: I notice my target (Z) is there, let's say Z = C++. >> >> Step 3: I choose my source (X) is there, let's say A = Java. >> >> Step 4: I click "GO!" and bam, up pops up an example side-by-side. On >> the left we have: > > I think this could be done by creating a page, named for the function in > question. In there then could be a list of links to articles with that > function, sorted by 'X to Y'. > > This should allow Mediawiki's built in search engine to provide you with > the information you're looking for. > > Already people are creating a structure to the articles I hadn't thought > of. I had planned to create 'X to Y' as a single, complete article. > Instead it is evolving as 'X to Y/function|concept|etc' and the 'X to Y' > article becomes a list of links. This may be very useful as it would > allow for what you are talking about. > > If I am getting this right, then this page should be inline with what > you are thinking? > > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Python/Arrays Well, yes kind of. The search feature seems to work well now because it isn't full of a lot of data yet. I wonder how slow it would be if it was full. What I'm suggesting is a separate page index of topics (right now these topics are on the individual Foo to Bar pages) that is like a meta-index for all of the Foo to Bar pages. No need to worry about this right away, though. >> void function(int i, ObjectType o) >> { >> // i is passed by value, therefore changes are local >> i += 4; >> >> // o is passed by reference.. changes inside persist >> o.somefunction(); >> o.somepublicfield = somevalue; >> } >> >> On the right: >> >> void function(int i, int & j, int * k, my_type * ptr, my_type & ref) >> { >> // i is passed by value, changes are local >> i += 4; >> >> // j is passed by reference, changes persist >> j += 4; >> >> // k's address is passed by value, but you can use it to change >> // the value of the variable it is pointing to in memory >> // changes persist if you do this >> (*k) = 4; >> >> // but not if you do this. address value in k is local >> k = 0x08fe82a6; >> >> // changes value of somemember in object pointed to by ptr >> o->somemember = somevalue; >> >> // same deal except via a reference >> ref.x = 4; >> } >> >> On the bottom: >> >> Note1: in Java, all object types are passed by reference whereas all >> primitive data types are passed by value. >> >> Note2: In C++, all primitive data types are passed by value unless you >> use a reference or pointer. There are two way to pass something "by >> reference": using a pointer or using a reference. Bla bla bla... > > Another excellent example that could be a seed article for 'Java to > C++'! Could I ask you to add it, if you have the time? As I mentioned > earlier in this thread, I am more than happy to do it myself, but when > possible I'd like to keep attributions intact in the wiki. :) Yep, and I added a bunch to the Java -> C++ page (mostly string manipulation stuff) and I could add even more because I've had to deal with these crossings in the past 2 years, but I've put up enough for one day :) I have to say.. I'd much rather sign in once and not have to do the CAPTCHA thing every time I edit. And given recent e-vandalism, maybe having "contributors" attached to an email address isn't such a bad idea. Marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:56:10 2008 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:56:10 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> On December 19, 2008, Giles Orr wrote: > ----- > > Some customers have reported slowness accessing Toronto Public Library > websites on computers running the Linux operating system. The problem > is most likely caused by Linux's use of strict internet routing and > firewall settings. We're working on a fix at TPL, but you can also > solve the problem on your computer. Please only attempt this if you're > familiar with the command line and editing files in /etc/ . > > First, test the fix by opening a terminal or command prompt with root > privileges and issue this command: > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale > > I tried this on my Debian and SuSE 11.0 distros and get a No Such File error. Is the command correct? Is 'echo' supposed to add this line to the proc filesystem? Now the site is almost useless, I just don't use TPL unless I have to. Regards -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.7 KMail 1.9.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:20:44 2008 From: hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Henry de Valence) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:20:44 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <200812191556.10404.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200812191620.44268.hdevalence@gmail.com> On Fri December 19 2008 3:56:10 pm Merv Curley wrote: > On December 19, 2008, Giles Orr wrote: > > ----- > > > > Some customers have reported slowness accessing Toronto Public Library > > websites on computers running the Linux operating system. The problem > > is most likely caused by Linux's use of strict internet routing and > > firewall settings. We're working on a fix at TPL, but you can also > > solve the problem on your computer. Please only attempt this if you're > > familiar with the command line and editing files in /etc/ . > > > > First, test the fix by opening a terminal or command prompt with root > > privileges and issue this command: > > > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale > > I tried this on my Debian and SuSE 11.0 distros and get a No Such File > error. Is the command correct? > Is 'echo' supposed to add this line to the proc filesystem? > > Now the site is almost useless, I just don't use TPL unless I have to. > > Regards echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling worked for me on SuSE 11.0 Henry de Valence -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:34:37 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:34:37 -0500 Subject: GRAH!?! In-Reply-To: <494BCFA7.6010705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494BCFA7.6010705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <494C217D.9040007@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, so this guy (who is on this list, Hey buddy!) seems to have an > unhealthy obsession with tearing about CtC's wiki. > > ... At the library: > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/207.61.160.163 > > ... Through Bell (home or net cafe?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/70.54.110.62 > > And just now from Toronto (City Hall?): > http://www.codetocode.net/index.php/Special:Contributions/206.130.173.55 > > Using the timestamps, could a list admin see if a registered member > logged into their email from one of those IP addresses? Given the > hateful, bigoted nature of the vandalisms I am getting quite upset with > this ... friend. > > I know he's a TLUG member because the first vandalism came withing > minutes of initially mentioning the project on this list, and that was > the first public announcement of the project I've made. > > Thanks! > > Madi Thanks for all the replies. I realized after I left that asking the list admin to check logins was pretty darn dumb of me... this is a mailing list, not a BBS. D'oh! :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:51:30 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:51:30 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <494C0156.3040402-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> <49495B81.8050101@ualberta.ca> <4949704D.90500@alteeve.com> <494C0156.3040402@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <494C2572.5000903@alteeve.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > Is inline reply against this list's etiquette or something? You've > apologized twice. It's second-nature for me to do this. Is isn't > frowned-upon in general, is it? I guess it's personal preference. As I've read, it's preferred to not use in-line replies because it makes it a little harder to follow the thread. For me though, I prefer it as it lets me address each point individually, though I sometimes feel like I am annoying someone. :) > Well, yes kind of. The search feature seems to work well now because it > isn't full of a lot of data yet. I wonder how slow it would be if it was > full. > > What I'm suggesting is a separate page index of topics (right now these > topics are on the individual Foo to Bar pages) that is like a meta-index > for all of the Foo to Bar pages. > > No need to worry about this right away, though. It's a very good point, and one I will keep in mind as the format of the site evolves. > Yep, and I added a bunch to the Java -> C++ page (mostly string > manipulation stuff) and I could add even more because I've had to deal > with these crossings in the past 2 years, but I've put up enough for one > day :) Oh wow, did you ever!! That is excellent, thank you very much! > I have to say.. I'd much rather sign in once and not have to do the > CAPTCHA thing every time I edit. And given recent e-vandalism, maybe > having "contributors" attached to an email address isn't such a bad idea. > > Marc I don't like having people feel obliged to register, so I installed reCAPTCHA in the hopes of deterring our little vandal. It didn't seem to slow him down though, so I just disabled it. I very much want this to be a project that people think "Hey, I've got five minutes, I'll add X" and not worry about being hassled. I guess figuring out how to best do that will come with experience. :) Again, thank you very much! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:18:08 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:18:08 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <200812191556.10404.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Merv. As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box is). Use this: echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. Similarily, the addition to /etc/sysctl.conf should be: net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0 My sincerest apologies! I'll fix it when I get to work Tuesday, or if I can manage, get a coworker to do it Monday. 2008/12/19 Merv Curley : > On December 19, 2008, Giles Orr wrote: >> ----- >> >> Some customers have reported slowness accessing Toronto Public Library >> websites on computers running the Linux operating system. The problem >> is most likely caused by Linux's use of strict internet routing and >> firewall settings. We're working on a fix at TPL, but you can also >> solve the problem on your computer. Please only attempt this if you're >> familiar with the command line and editing files in /etc/ . >> >> First, test the fix by opening a terminal or command prompt with root >> privileges and issue this command: >> >> echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale >> > I tried this on my Debian and SuSE 11.0 distros and get a No Such File error. > Is the command correct? > Is 'echo' supposed to add this line to the proc filesystem? > > Now the site is almost useless, I just don't use TPL unless I have to. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:55:03 2008 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Linux Caffe meet / snowstorm problems Message-ID: Hi guys, It's my first time in .to so I will show up in the Linux Caffe sometime tomorrow or on Monday to say hello. Is there a specific time of day when more people are around ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:57:23 2008 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:57:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Any ALSA experts here? References: <494AF5EC.8060207@telly.org> <20081218223634.d53cd5f2.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: Howard Gibson writes: > > On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:16:28 -0500 > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > > > Hey all, > > > > I bought a USB webcam for a computer (running Ubuntu 8.10) that includes > > an integrated microphone (The Microsoft NX-6000, they still make decent > > hardware...) > > > > In a reverse situation from most user problems, I have the webcam > > working fine but not the microphone. Usually you need to check for the special driver needed for the sound input device on the camera. It may or may not be supported. It depends on the chipset. Get the USB ID of the device(s) and check for compatibility on the net, or post the numbers here and we will try to look ... you want both the camera and the mike data (usually the mike is an unrecognized usb endpoint but it can be a separate device). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 00:05:10 2008 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:05:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is =?utf-8?b?4oCcaWxsZWdhbOKAnQ==?= and confiscates their copies References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That teacher should be made to live by his own "law". Since he only accepts Windows computers, one should disable and secure, for compliance, his cell phones, cable boxes, internet routers, tvs, quartz wristwatches and wall watches, the alarm system in his car, the ECU in his car, the digital radio in his car, and, most important, the house heating controller which, no doubt, does not run Windows, together with all his children's electronic toys, such as Nintendo, PS3 etc etc. After that the "Windows compliance crew" should leave the house under guard, to ensure compliance is maintained for as long as it takes for the moron to beg. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 00:13:10 2008 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:13:10 -0500 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_:_Re:_:_Teacher_tells_students_Lin?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?ux_is_=93illegal=94_and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/08, Peter wrote: > > That teacher should be made to live by his own "law". Since he only accepts > Windows computers, one should disable and secure, for compliance, his cell > phones, cable boxes, internet routers, tvs, quartz wristwatches and wall > watches, the alarm system in his car, the ECU in his car, the digital radio > in > his car, and, most important, the house heating controller which, no doubt, > does > not run Windows, together with all his children's electronic toys, such as > Nintendo, PS3 etc etc. After that the "Windows compliance crew" should leave > the > house under guard, to ensure compliance is maintained for as long as it > takes > for the moron to beg. > > Peter Have a look at the follow-up regarding that teacher... http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/character-assasinations-aint-us.html Things are a LITTLE more complex than they first appeared... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 04:13:23 2008 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:13:23 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812192313.23348.mervc@eol.ca> On December 19, 2008, Giles Orr wrote: > Hi Merv. > > As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on > the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This > is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the > note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box > is). Use this: > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling > > It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. > Thats what I thought it was doing. My ignorance of /proc is astounding so I never would have found the correct file. At any rate, what a difference at the Web site, Konqueror and Firefox get selected pages up almost instantly not 30 - 60 seconds later. Now to make it permanent on all my computers and distros. Thank you for the fix to the fix. Much appreciated. Regards -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.7 KMail 1.9.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 04:21:31 2008 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:21:31 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812192321.32043.mervc@eol.ca> On December 19, 2008, Giles Orr wrote: > Hi Merv. > > As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on > the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This > is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the > note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box > is). Use this: > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling > > It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. > Now that I have visited a few more sites, I found that you just tripled my internet speed when browsing. Incredible. More thanks. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.7 KMail 1.9.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 12:55:29 2008 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:55:29 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494CEB41.9000300@pppoe.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > Hi Merv. > > As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on > the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This > is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the > note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box > is). Use this: > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling > > It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. > > Similarily, the addition to /etc/sysctl.conf should be: > > net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0 > > My sincerest apologies! I'll fix it when I get to work Tuesday, or if > I can manage, get a coworker to do it Monday. > > Thanks, Giles. Works for me :-) Are you still at Lillian Smith? Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 17:04:57 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:04:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <200812192321.32043.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> <200812192321.32043.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: | From: Merv Curley | Now that I have visited a few more sites, I found that you just tripled my | internet speed when browsing. Incredible. Wow, the routers at these sites haven't implemented RFC 1323 from 1992. Worse: these implementations are actively broken, not just ignorant. They take an option (Window Scale Option) and change its value when passing it through. The RFC says that the presence of this option does two things: it announces the value of the Window Scale factor and it announces that the sender understands a Window Scale Option. The only sensible things for a router to do, even before this RFC were: - drop the option, or - pass it unchanged. I cannot imagine any logic for passing it with a changed value. Is there a list of the router brands, models, and firmware versions that are broken? I just tried to read the TPL page on Linux, while tcpdumping. I observed the problem. A comment in the LWN article suggests MS Windows Vista might suffer too. It points to http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/1744/vista_tcp_cannot_communicate_primary_dns_server/ Since this only refers to DNS problems, I'm not sure what the extent of the problem is for Vista. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 02:39:51 2008 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:39:51 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1229827191.6859.1482.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 18:18 -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Hi Merv. > > As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on > the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This > is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the > note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box > is). Use this: > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling > > It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. > > Similarily, the addition to /etc/sysctl.conf should be: > > net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0 > > My sincerest apologies! I'll fix it when I get to work Tuesday, or if > I can manage, get a coworker to do it Monday. > just two quick things: - i have to take some of the blame for this -- Giles passed this text to me to check it, and i failed to pick up the error, so sorry. - more importantly, THANKS to the TPL for responding so quickly to this concern, and posting the fix in a public way, and quite promptly, on their website. Honestly, I can't remember the last time any public entity responded to a linux-specific issue when I raised it. Usually i'm just told to run windows... so yeah, thanks. matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 02:41:21 2008 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <494CEB41.9000300-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> <494CEB41.9000300@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <1229827281.6859.1488.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 07:55 -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > Giles Orr wrote: > > Hi Merv. > > > > As it turns out, what I did to fix it on my machine and what I said on > > the website are different. And what's on the website is wrong. This > > is because I read http://lwn.net/Articles/92727/ while writing the > > note. I was at work when I did it, not at home (where my Linux box > > is). Use this: > > > > echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling > > > > It's not creating the file, it's changing the value in the file. > > > > Similarily, the addition to /etc/sysctl.conf should be: > > > > net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0 > > > > My sincerest apologies! I'll fix it when I get to work Tuesday, or if > > I can manage, get a coworker to do it Monday. > > > > > Thanks, Giles. Works for me :-) > > Are you still at Lillian Smith? > hey, if you're at lillian smith, i'll ocme by some time and introduce myself -- it's our backup library (since bloor/glastsone's still closed...). matt > Regards > > Meng > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 14:43:10 2008 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:43:10 -0500 Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> <200812192321.32043.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280812210643r63868cdev901961d3f40b360a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/12/20 D. Hugh Redelmeier : > Wow, the routers at these sites haven't implemented RFC 1323 from > 1992. > > Worse: these implementations are actively broken, not just ignorant. > They take an option (Window Scale Option) and change its value when > passing it through. The RFC says that the presence of this option > does two things: it announces the value of the Window Scale factor and > it announces that the sender understands a Window Scale Option. The > only sensible things for a router to do, even before this RFC were: > - drop the option, or > - pass it unchanged. > I cannot imagine any logic for passing it with a changed value. > > Is there a list of the router brands, models, and firmware versions > that are broken? > > I just tried to read the TPL page on Linux, while tcpdumping. I > observed the problem. > > A comment in the LWN article suggests MS Windows Vista might suffer > too. It points to > http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/1744/vista_tcp_cannot_communicate_primary_dns_server/ > Since this only refers to DNS problems, I'm not sure what the extent > of the problem is for Vista. We've had reports of problems with Vista, and have a note on the website sending people to this page: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/934430/en-us Although Microsoft's web page claims "This issue does not occur when you try to make an HTTP connection," we've had reports of the listed fix helping people out. The page also lists a bunch of firewalls that are known to cause problems. Does anyone know how to determine (from where we stand) what device - make and model - is causing the problem? I believe we've let the network people know there is a problem, but it hasn't been fixed yet: perhaps if I can tell them precisely what device and how to fix it they would move on it. P.S. I'm not at Lillian H. Smith anymore. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 16:32:17 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:32:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280812210643r63868cdev901961d3f40b360a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> <200812192321.32043.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812210643r63868cdev901961d3f40b360a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Giles Orr | http://support.microsoft.com/kb/934430/en-us Thanks for that reference. Interesting. | Although Microsoft's web page claims "This issue does not occur when | you try to make an HTTP connection," we've had reports of the listed | fix helping people out. Also interesting to hear. | Does anyone know how to determine (from where we stand) what device - | make and model - is causing the problem? I believe we've let the | network people know there is a problem, but it hasn't been fixed yet: | perhaps if I can tell them precisely what device and how to fix it | they would move on it. If you can do a tcpdump on either side of each device, then you should be able to see the option being mangled. Here's an example of tcpdump output of such a packet, before mangling: 11:43:33.881345 IP xxxx.xxx.com.50058 > 192.30.226.5.http: S 3755011948:3755011948(0) win 5840 Notice the "wscale 7". I have no idea if this would work: traceroute works by setting hop-counts so that messages get bounced at different distances from the tracrouting node. The resulting ICMP messages might contain enough of the originating packet to see if an option is changed. I wonder if one could create a traceroute-like program that uses suitably crafted SYN packets to probe for this deffect along a whole path. In any case, it looks to me as if TPL doesn't return the ICMPs necessary: 10 core4-toronto63_POS12-0-0.net.bell.ca (64.230.160.125) 29.155 ms 28.905 ms 19.895 ms 11 core2-toronto63_POS0-2.net.bell.ca (64.230.242.106) 22.169 ms 25.951 ms 23.427 ms 12 dis33-toronto63_POS5-0.net.bell.ca (64.230.229.10) 23.889 ms 21.750 ms 26.669 ms 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * * * 16 * * * 17 * * * | P.S. I'm not at Lillian H. Smith anymore. Too bad. Handy to TLUG meetings. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 01:21:58 2008 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 01:21:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is =?utf-8?b?4oCcaWxsZWdhbOKAnQ==?= and confiscates their copies References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, since last year when a dinner owner in the US managed to get someone busted for "illegal internet access" when he used that location's free internet access from his car, I tend to believe anything they write about what is happening there, until proven otherwise. And I am NOT amused by any of it. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 01:44:31 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:44:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Accessing Toronto Public Library's Website with Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280812190827u6b9857ffu7800fa2f70546d29@mail.gmail.com> <200812191556.10404.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812191518i613cb6b4n1d073c5ea77ab7d1@mail.gmail.com> <200812192321.32043.mervc@eol.ca> <1f13df280812210643r63868cdev901961d3f40b360a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2008, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I have no idea if this would work: traceroute works by setting > hop-counts so that messages get bounced at different distances from > the tracrouting node. The resulting ICMP messages might contain > enough of the originating packet to see if an option is changed. I > wonder if one could create a traceroute-like program that uses > suitably crafted SYN packets to probe for this deffect along a whole > path. tcptraceroute will traceroute the path using a selected TCP port. It's been ages since I looked at the specific mechanism it uses but you might like to try it. tcptraceroute should be readily available in any full featured Linux distro. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 01:27:24 2008 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:27:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E2=80=9Cillegal=E2=80=9D_and_confiscates_their_copies?= In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1549.173.34.8.54.1229909244.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> The spelling pedant strikes! > Unfortunately, since last year when a dinner owner in the US managed to ^^^^^^ diner? > get > someone busted for "illegal internet access" when he used that location's > free > internet access from his car, I tend to believe anything they write about > what > is happening there, until proven otherwise. And I am NOT amused by any of > it. > > Peter > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 05:17:01 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:17:01 -0500 Subject: New project, "Code to Code" In-Reply-To: <494C2572.5000903-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4947EE0D.50001@alteeve.com> <49480E0B.1060501@ualberta.ca> <494811C9.1080809@alteeve.com> <49495B81.8050101@ualberta.ca> <4949704D.90500@alteeve.com> <494C0156.3040402@ualberta.ca> <494C2572.5000903@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > I don't like having people feel obliged to register, so I installed > reCAPTCHA in the hopes of deterring our little vandal. It didn't seem to > slow him down though, so I just disabled it. CAPTCHA isn't a general solution to all problems - the only one that it *consistently* solves is that of warding off *automated* vandalism. A human that wants to vandalize your site will be able to negotiate the "CAPTCHA test" and do their thing. Stupid scripts may be deterred, but not "stupid people." The whole thing is quite unfortunate. The dumb part is that sexual *anything* shouldn't be getting into this. I'd be unsurprised at hearing opining that "Linux people should be more open than that;" I'd judge that to be incorrect, actually. There are people into Linux of all sorts of shapes and sizes and preferences, including some that would prefer not to get into various sorts of "gory details." I expect that in this instance, everything is being inferred from a name change, and there's not much that could be done to avoid such troubles. Tracking down the offender and punishing him would more than likely add to the set of wrongdoings, and strengthen his resolve. Sigh. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 13:44:53 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:44:53 -0500 Subject: Templating advice Message-ID: <494F99D5.6080102@alteeve.com> Hi all, I've been looking to update my HTML templating system to make it more flexible. I'd like to have a templating system that would let a skin redefine where various elements show up on the screen for any given page. Thus far, my system calls a file, reads a named section, substitutes in variables and returns the finished HTML data as a string variable that I print when I am ready. I was thinking about having a "layout" template definition that tells the program where and in what order to display the components. My question is how to go about doing this (from a high level view, not from a program language level). I want the page to still layout sanely should CSS/JS be disabled, so I want the foundation of the templating system to use basic HTML, if possible. Any suggestions, warnings or caveats I should keep in mine before delving into this? Thanks for any advice! Madi PS - In case someone is curious, it's is written in perl. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:00:24 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:00:24 -0500 Subject: Templating advice In-Reply-To: <494F99D5.6080102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494F99D5.6080102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <494FB998.6040105@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > I've been looking to update my HTML templating system to make it > more flexible. I'd like to have a templating system that would let a > skin redefine where various elements show up on the screen for any > given page. > > Thus far, my system calls a file, reads a named section, substitutes > in variables and returns the finished HTML data as a string variable > that I print when I am ready. I was thinking about having a "layout" > template definition that tells the program where and in what order to > display the components. > > My question is how to go about doing this (from a high level view, > not from a program language level). > > I want the page to still layout sanely should CSS/JS be disabled, so > I want the foundation of the templating system to use basic HTML, if > possible. How can the user disable CSS? Your layout *should be* defined by CSS. You need to deal with users who use IE of course. But even Microsoft catches up with version 8. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:41:52 2008 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:41:52 -0500 Subject: Templating advice In-Reply-To: <494F99D5.6080102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <494F99D5.6080102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been looking to update my HTML templating system to make it more > flexible. I'd like to have a templating system that would let a skin > redefine where various elements show up on the screen for any given page. > > Thus far, my system calls a file, reads a named section, substitutes in > variables and returns the finished HTML data as a string variable that I > print when I am ready. I was thinking about having a "layout" template > definition that tells the program where and in what order to display the > components. > > My question is how to go about doing this (from a high level view, not from > a program language level). > > I want the page to still layout sanely should CSS/JS be disabled, so I want > the foundation of the templating system to use basic HTML, if possible. > > Any suggestions, warnings or caveats I should keep in mine before delving > into this? Another vote for using CSS to do this -- that's what it's there for. Each client/group/topic can have different CSS definitions that make that section or version of the web site different. The best part is that the underlying pages don't change, all the work is done by the browser. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 18:51:01 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:51:01 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? Message-ID: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> I think it's finally time to get rid of my various .../~pmills/... addresses and consolidate the information there into something manageable. (Call it a pre-New Years not-quite-resolution.) What I would like almost immediately: - a .ca domain name - a few GB of storage - reasonable -- whatever that means -- transfer limits - a linux (or Unix-y) host - ssh/ftp/... access for file management rather than some web-based horror What I would probably use in the intermediate future: - a database (PostgreSQL?) - server-side programmability (Perl?) What I might use in some far-flung future, but don't bet on it: - Tomcat/JBoss Q1: Suggestions? Q2: What should I be considering that's not in the lists above? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 19:03:17 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:03:17 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <494FE475.4030103@rogers.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > I think it's finally time to get rid of my various .../~pmills/... > addresses and consolidate the information there into something > manageable. (Call it a pre-New Years not-quite-resolution.) > > What I would like almost immediately: > - a .ca domain name > - a few GB of storage > - reasonable -- whatever that means -- transfer limits > - a linux (or Unix-y) host > - ssh/ftp/... access for file management rather than some web-based > horror > Check out hostpapa.ca as a host and netfirms.com as a registrar Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 19:11:01 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:11:01 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <494FE645.7030906@gmail.com> Do it yourself: http://www.linode.com zb. Phillip Mills wrote: > I think it's finally time to get rid of my various .../~pmills/... > addresses and consolidate the information there into something > manageable. (Call it a pre-New Years not-quite-resolution.) > > What I would like almost immediately: > - a .ca domain name > - a few GB of storage > - reasonable -- whatever that means -- transfer limits > - a linux (or Unix-y) host > - ssh/ftp/... access for file management rather than some web-based > horror > > What I would probably use in the intermediate future: > - a database (PostgreSQL?) > - server-side programmability (Perl?) > > What I might use in some far-flung future, but don't bet on it: > - Tomcat/JBoss > > Q1: Suggestions? > Q2: What should I be considering that's not in the lists above? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 19:44:01 2008 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:44:01 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <494FE645.7030906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> <494FE645.7030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081222194401.C8383854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> >> - a .ca domain name > http://www.linode.com Not sure if you care about physically and corporately Canadian as well (I do), but linode is not. Best I've found is: http://iweb.com/ in Montreal. I'm sure there are Toronto equivalents (hello out there), but I haven't found them in my web searches. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 21:04:03 2008 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:04:03 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Phillip Mills wrote: > I think it's finally time to get rid of my various .../~pmills/... addresses > and consolidate the information there into something manageable. (Call it a > pre-New Years not-quite-resolution.) > > What I would like almost immediately: > - a .ca domain name > - a few GB of storage > - reasonable -- whatever that means -- transfer limits > - a linux (or Unix-y) host > - ssh/ftp/... access for file management rather than some web-based horror > > What I would probably use in the intermediate future: > - a database (PostgreSQL?) > - server-side programmability (Perl?) > > What I might use in some far-flung future, but don't bet on it: > - Tomcat/JBoss > > Q1: Suggestions? > Q2: What should I be considering that's not in the lists above? I'm dealing with A2 Hosting, who seem to be out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Pricing's pretty reasonable; there are choices from few bucks/month to the skies. I haven't found real reason to care what country my hosting is in; from a taxation perspective, foreign means I don't have to account for GST :-). Vis-a-vis handling of domains, I would Strongly Urge that the "availability of .ca domains" NOT be a criterion. It shouldn't be, at all. More particularly, I would NEVER allow my ISP to manage domain registration for me. If they do, then it means that it's THEIR domain, not mine (or not yours!). And if you ever decide you don't like their service, if it's THEIR domain, you can't take it with you. So take that issue out of the mix. Find a CIRA-approved registrar from the following list and see to registering your favorite name. Traditionally, with a "basic" hosting plan, you can get only about as far as having some MySQL databases, and the ability to deploy CGI-ish stuff in Perl, Python, and PHP. In order to get Tomcat, you'd need to have a dedicated server, because Tomcat implies Java, and Java implies "memory hunger," and you don't get to chew memory on a 1/20th share of a cheap box. That has changed somewhat - you can buy "virtual server" plans, where you get to use a VMWare/Xen image, and get some fraction of a server. In that case, they tend to offer the ability to use *any* image you like, so you could use whatever sort of software you like. Virtual servers are not totally cheap, but certainly less than dedicated servers. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Douglas MacArthur - "We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 21:23:42 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:23:42 -0500 Subject: Hosting Recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <20081222135101.awhrewnug44080co@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <4950055E.6020000@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Phillip Mills wrote: >> I think it's finally time to get rid of my various .../~pmills/... addresses >> and consolidate the information there into something manageable. (Call it a >> pre-New Years not-quite-resolution.) >> >> What I would like almost immediately: >> - a .ca domain name >> - a few GB of storage >> - reasonable -- whatever that means -- transfer limits >> - a linux (or Unix-y) host >> - ssh/ftp/... access for file management rather than some web-based horror >> >> What I would probably use in the intermediate future: >> - a database (PostgreSQL?) >> - server-side programmability (Perl?) >> >> What I might use in some far-flung future, but don't bet on it: >> - Tomcat/JBoss >> >> Q1: Suggestions? >> Q2: What should I be considering that's not in the lists above? > > I'm dealing with A2 Hosting, who seem to be out of Ann Arbor, > Michigan. Pricing's pretty reasonable; there are choices from few > bucks/month to the skies. I haven't found real reason to care what > country my hosting is in; from a taxation perspective, foreign means I > don't have to account for GST :-). > > Vis-a-vis handling of domains, I would Strongly Urge that the > "availability of .ca domains" NOT be a criterion. It shouldn't be, at > all. More particularly, I would NEVER allow my ISP to manage domain > registration for me. If they do, then it means that it's THEIR > domain, not mine (or not yours!). And if you ever decide you don't > like their service, if it's THEIR domain, you can't take it with you. > > So take that issue out of the mix. Find a CIRA-approved registrar > from the following list and see to > registering your favorite name. > > Traditionally, with a "basic" hosting plan, you can get only about as > far as having some MySQL databases, and the ability to deploy CGI-ish > stuff in Perl, Python, and PHP. In order to get Tomcat, you'd need to > have a dedicated server, because Tomcat implies Java, and Java implies > "memory hunger," and you don't get to chew memory on a 1/20th share of > a cheap box. > > That has changed somewhat - you can buy "virtual server" plans, where > you get to use a VMWare/Xen image, and get some fraction of a server. > In that case, they tend to offer the ability to use *any* image you > like, so you could use whatever sort of software you like. Virtual > servers are not totally cheap, but certainly less than dedicated > servers. The company I work for do both dedicated and Xen based virtual servers and has a reputation for java hosting (on both offerings depending on needs of the web app). A decent Xen VPS with 512mb memory would be under $50/month and runs tomcat and postgres well. Sounds a bit advertisement like, so I won't spam the list any more, but contact me off list if you want to know more (or if I should broadcast to the list). Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 19:21:02 2008 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:21:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is =?utf-8?b?w6LCgMKcaWxsZWdhbMOiwoDCnQ==?= and confiscates their copies References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com> <1549.173.34.8.54.1229909244.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: writes: > The spelling pedant strikes! > > > Unfortunately, since last year when a dinner owner in the US managed to > ^^^^^^ diner? IANANESBTWATA [*] Peter *) I am not a native English speaker/writer but that was a typo anyway. Eh ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 04:53:03 2008 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:53:03 -0500 Subject: Anyone tried Nix? Message-ID: <20081223235303.0fa6b11e@teksavvy.com> Quote: "A next-generation package manager called Nix provides a simple distribution-independent method for deploying a binary or source package on different flavours of Linux, including Ubuntu, Debian, SUSE, Fedora, and Red Hat. Even better, Nix does not interfere with existing package managers. Unlike existing package managers, Nix allows different versions of software to live side by side, and permits sane rollbacks of software upgrades. Nix is a useful system administration tool for heterogeneous environments and developers who write software supported on different libraries, compilers, or interpreters." Link: http://www.linux.com/feature/155922 -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 05:56:11 2008 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:56:11 -0500 Subject: Caneris Message-ID: <000901c96655$7e314020$7a93c060$@com> Hello All, Does anyone have any experience with the aforementioned company? I saw a posting of their services on craigslist. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alan-bdq14YP6qtTV+N59fa8YiVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 20:30:46 2008 From: alan-bdq14YP6qtTV+N59fa8YiVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Alan Cohen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:30:46 -0500 Subject: OT: gmail/yahoo/etc for seniors Message-ID: <1230237046.7568.35.camel@tsx2.computeradvocacy.com> I am in the process of drafting a multi-faceted proposal for a community organization. Part of it will involve computer/Internet Adult Education for seniors. Part of it will involve registering a domain name and pointing email to a web-mail server such as Gmail or Yahoo Mail. Many hundreds of email accounts are envisioned. Somebody (probably me) will have to manage the whole thing. Any recommendations re Gmail, Yahoo Mail, whatever? ________________________________________________________________________ Sincerely, Alan Cohen on behalf of Four Quadrants alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org 416-783-5383 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4quadrants-logo-2-72x72.png Type: image/png Size: 2849 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 01:26:06 2008 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:26:06 -0500 Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is “illegal” and confiscates their copies In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4953EC5E.12331.546CB77@sciguy.vex.net> While I probably will count myself lucky for not being on the receiving end of being told "IANANESBTWATA", what the heck does it mean/stand for? I have tried to search for this on the web without luck. Please enlighten us with your vast acronym savvy! Paul > writes: > > The spelling pedant strikes! > > > > > Unfortunately, since last year when a dinner owner in the US managed to > > ^^^^^^ diner? > > IANANESBTWATA [*] > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *) I am not a native English speaker/writer but that was a typo anyway. Eh > ;) > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 3714 (20081223) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 02:06:43 2008 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:06:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teacher tells students Linux is =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C3=A2=C2=C2illegal=C3=A2=C2=C2_and_confiscates_their_copi?= es In-Reply-To: <4953EC5E.12331.546CB77-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570812100757i5dca930o4447667fb09cffdc@mail.gmail.com>, <4953EC5E.12331.546CB77@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <3553.173.34.8.54.1230257203.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> *) I am not a native English speaker/writer but that was a typo anyway. > While I probably will count myself lucky for not being on the receiving > end of > being told "IANANESBTWATA", what the heck does it mean/stand for? I have > tried > to search for this on the web without luck. Please enlighten us with your > vast > acronym savvy! > > Paul > > >> writes: >> > The spelling pedant strikes! >> > >> > > Unfortunately, since last year when a dinner owner in the US managed >> to >> > ^^^^^^ diner? >> >> IANANESBTWATA [*] >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> . >> Eh >> ;) >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 3714 (20081223) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 03:01:22 2008 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:01:22 -0500 Subject: Caneris In-Reply-To: <000901c96655$7e314020$7a93c060$@com> References: <000901c96655$7e314020$7a93c060$@com> Message-ID: <20081227030122.GA11402@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:56:11AM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with the aforementioned company? I > saw a posting of their services on craigslist. I know the people who run Caneris. You should find them to be OS agnostic with knowledgeable tech support. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 15:24:52 2008 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: cheap GPS / buy a Microsoft product! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Factory Direct is selling MS Streets & Trips 2007 with GPS Locator for $19.99 with coupon for the rest of this year. http://www.factorydirect.ca/catalog/combo_spec.php?pcode=FC3242&id=265 This is part of an otherwise boring set of coupons: http://www.factorydirect.ca/email_html/081227_FS.htm This is a good price. The unit is "new", not open box or refurb. The 2007 locator is better than the older ones (I never remember which year had the hardware transition, but I think 2007 is good). | Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:51:26 -0400 (EDT) | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | | I noticed that the Factory Direct flyer in today's Star offers the | Microsoft Streets and Trips 2006 with GPS Locator for $39.99 | | This seems like a good price. The locator will work under Linux. It is a | little box + cable that plugs into a USB port. The software is of course | useless under Linux. | | Linux mapping software could be improved. So buy one of these and pitch | in :-) | | As usual, phone Factory Direct before making a trip: they often don't | stock what they advertise. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:21:11 2008 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:21:11 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office Message-ID: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> Looking at setting-up a wireless office. There is only one Linux box in the office used as the firewall. It will be connecting directly to the wireless router. Doubt there will be much problem there. The rest of the office is a mix of windows and Mac boxes. They are thinking usb adapters would be the best way to go. Some of the boxes are older. Was wondering if anyone had set-up a similar network, and opinions on the various venders. Was thinking of using Lynksys, Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:35:29 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:35:29 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <49593137.9060105-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49593491.2080401@rogers.com> Lance F. Squire wrote: > Looking at setting-up a wireless office. > > There is only one Linux box in the office used as the firewall. It will > be connecting directly to the wireless router. Doubt there will be much > problem there. > > The rest of the office is a mix of windows and Mac boxes. They are > thinking usb adapters would be the best way to go. Some of the boxes are > older. > > Was wondering if anyone had set-up a similar network, and opinions on > the various venders. > > Was thinking of using Lynksys, Are you connecting the WiFi box directly to the ISP? If so, why use the Linux box as the firewall? If you're connecting the Linux box to the ISP with the local network behind it, you'll have to configure the WiFi box in AP mode. Most can do that, but probably use a different name. "AP mode" means you connect via the LAN ports, rather than WAN and turn off DHCP (unless you need a DHCP server) & uPnP. I've used SMC, Linksys, D-Link and Asus. They all work well. While USB WiFi NICs may be suitable, you can also get PCI cards too. One advantage of the USB NIC, is you can put it up high, at the end of a USB extention cable. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:40:08 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:40:08 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <49593491.2080401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <49593491.2080401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <495935A8.9080509@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Lance F. Squire wrote: >> Looking at setting-up a wireless office. >> >> There is only one Linux box in the office used as the firewall. It >> will be connecting directly to the wireless router. Doubt there will >> be much problem there. >> >> The rest of the office is a mix of windows and Mac boxes. They are >> thinking usb adapters would be the best way to go. Some of the boxes >> are older. >> >> Was wondering if anyone had set-up a similar network, and opinions on >> the various venders. >> >> Was thinking of using Lynksys, > > Are you connecting the WiFi box directly to the ISP? If so, why use the > Linux box as the firewall? If you're connecting the Linux box to the > ISP with the local network behind it, you'll have to configure the WiFi > box in AP mode. Most can do that, but probably use a different name. > "AP mode" means you connect via the LAN ports, rather than WAN and turn > off DHCP (unless you need a DHCP server) & uPnP. I've used SMC, Linksys, > D-Link and Asus. They all work well. While USB WiFi NICs may be > suitable, you can also get PCI cards too. One advantage of the USB NIC, > is you can put it up high, at the end of a USB extention cable. > > Forgot to mention, you'll want to use a USB 2 port, as USB 1 is too slow to keep up with a WiFi connection. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:49:31 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:49:31 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <49593137.9060105-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> In most cases it does not matter but... in general, the idea of wireless office is sick. Because of security. Everyone around can monitor all office activity and steal data. zb. Lance F. Squire wrote: > Looking at setting-up a wireless office. > > There is only one Linux box in the office used as the firewall. It > will be connecting directly to the wireless router. Doubt there will > be much problem there. > > The rest of the office is a mix of windows and Mac boxes. They are > thinking usb adapters would be the best way to go. Some of the boxes > are older. > > Was wondering if anyone had set-up a similar network, and opinions on > the various venders. > > Was thinking of using Lynksys, > > Lance F. Squire > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:03:41 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:03:41 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <495937DB.2090307-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > In most cases it does not matter but... in general, the idea of > wireless office is sick. Because of security. Everyone around can > monitor all office activity and steal data. That's why you use something called "encryption". WPA2 encryption has not been broken and is very secure. Do not use WEP and use plain WPA, if you can't do WPA2. Many WiFi routers can be configured to work with both WPA & WPA2, depending on what the computer is capable of. Linux, Vista, XP SP3 can do WPA2. XP SP2 can only do WPA. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:13:57 2008 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:13:57 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <4959493D.1020206-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49594BA5.1050107@ss.org> No office is trully safe when there is Van Eck phreaking [1]. What it comes down to is what you consider a reasonable risk Vs. gain. If this is a home office or small business office, then the risk could be "acceptable" to those it matters too. If this was a bank, then dear god I know their smarter then to use anything wireless, they have enough troubles with physical keyloggers popping up everywhere. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking James Knott wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> In most cases it does not matter but... in general, the idea of >> wireless office is sick. Because of security. Everyone around can >> monitor all office activity and steal data. >> > > That's why you use something called "encryption". WPA2 encryption has > not been broken and is very secure. Do not use WEP and use plain WPA, > if you can't do WPA2. Many WiFi routers can be configured to work with > both WPA & WPA2, depending on what the computer is capable of. Linux, > Vista, XP SP3 can do WPA2. XP SP2 can only do WPA. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:26:45 2008 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:26:45 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <4959493D.1020206-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49594EA5.3090003@utoronto.ca> James Knott wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> In most cases it does not matter but... in general, the idea of >> wireless office is sick. Because of security. Everyone around can >> monitor all office activity and steal data. > > That's why you use something called "encryption". WPA2 encryption has > not been broken and is very secure. Do not use WEP and use plain WPA, > if you can't do WPA2. Many WiFi routers can be configured to work with > both WPA & WPA2, depending on what the computer is capable of. Linux, > Vista, XP SP3 can do WPA2. XP SP2 can only do WPA. I think Zbigniew might have been referring to the problem of a shared key. However, 802.1X to authenticate (RADIUS and an EAP implementation_ and distribute keys to a supplicant (client device) gets around that problem. Most access points support this, usually it's called WPA Enterprise. The Linux box would make a perfect RADIUS server using freeRADIUS. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:35:46 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:35:46 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <49594BA5.1050107-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> <49594BA5.1050107@ss.org> Message-ID: <495950C2.8050600@gmail.com> Scott Sullivan wrote: > No office is trully safe when there is Van Eck phreaking [1]. > > What it comes down to is what you consider a reasonable risk Vs. gain. Agree. I do not trust all these encryption methods. If transmission can be intercepted - no way that it is secure anymore. Van Eck trick is a something. There are more. How about pointing infrared laser beam onto the window and listening all voice conversations and also keyboard keystrokes? ;) I am sure that we are living at times that are like paradise for intelligence agencies from all over the world, because of our own ignorance (actually, we guess well which are the most active around). zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 23:12:02 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:12:02 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <49594BA5.1050107-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> <49594BA5.1050107@ss.org> Message-ID: <49595942.8060301@rogers.com> Scott Sullivan wrote: > No office is trully safe when there is Van Eck phreaking [1]. > > What it comes down to is what you consider a reasonable risk Vs. gain. > If this is a home office or small business office, then the risk could > be "acceptable" to those it matters too. If this was a bank, then dear > god I know their smarter then to use anything wireless, they have > enough troubles with physical keyloggers popping up everywhere. A bank would likely be using a RADIUS server, which adds to the security over WPA2. Also, many companies require a VPN be used over WiFi. So, it's someone's responsibility to look at what's required and respond appropriately. BTW, I've set up microwave links for some companies, which carry their LAN and other data between sites. They're all encrypted and you don't hear much about them. Some links use the same or similar frequencies as 802.11 WiFi. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 23:22:27 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:22:27 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <495950C2.8050600-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <49593137.9060105@alteeve.com> <495937DB.2090307@gmail.com> <4959493D.1020206@rogers.com> <49594BA5.1050107@ss.org> <495950C2.8050600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49595BB3.4090306@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Scott Sullivan wrote: >> No office is trully safe when there is Van Eck phreaking [1]. >> >> What it comes down to is what you consider a reasonable risk Vs. gain. > Agree. > > I do not trust all these encryption methods. > > If transmission can be intercepted - no way that it is secure anymore. > > Van Eck trick is a something. There are more. How about pointing > infrared laser beam onto the window and listening all voice > conversations and also keyboard keystrokes? ;) > > I am sure that we are living at times that are like paradise for > intelligence agencies from all over the world, because of our own > ignorance (actually, we guess well which are the most active around). > WPA2 uses AES encryption and, when available, a RADIUS key server, which makes a very secure combination (802.11i). If you're so worried, you'd better not be using any commercial ISP or phone company, as it's much easier to eavesdrop there. Then again, there's the question of whether what you have to communicate is worth the effort required to break in. Don't forget, AES is not only approved by the NIST, it is also a publicly available standard, which means any competent person can verify it's integrity. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 05:42:52 2008 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:42:52 -0500 Subject: Connecting to an MS VPN from a laptop running debian etch. Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm trying to connect to my work machine which is running XP and is accessible via an MS VPN (I don't have any choice in the matter, so please hold the heckling :). Anyway, I followed the instructions in: http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/howto-debian.phtml As far as I can see, I've done everything suggested. My "/etc/ppp/options.pptp" is: lock noauth nobsdcomp nodeflate Let's say that connecting via XP/Vista I connect to "vpn" on "domain.com", my account is "user" and password is "pwd". There are no problems connecting thus. (This is all just to anonymize my work account - I trust you'll all understand why I can't share the real thing). On the debian system my "/etc/ppp/chap-secrets" file is # Secrets for authentication using CHAP # client server secret IP addresses user PPTP pwd * I have a "/etc/ppp/peers/to-work" file which contains: pty "pptp vpn.domain.com --nolaunchpppd" name user remotename PPTP require-mppe-128 file /etc/ppp/options.pptp ipparam to-work When I run "pon to-work debug dump logfd 2 nodetach" the screen output is: pppd options in effect: debug # (from command line) nodetach # (from command line) logfd 2 # (from command line) dump # (from command line) noauth # (from /etc/ppp/options.pptp) name user # (from /etc/ppp/peers/to-work) remotename PPTP # (from /etc/ppp/peers/to-work) # (from /etc/ppp/options.pptp) pty pptp vpn.domain.com --nolaunchpppd # (from /etc/ppp/peers/to-work) crtscts # (from /etc/ppp/options) # (from /etc/ppp/options) asyncmap 0 # (from /etc/ppp/options) lcp-echo-failure 4 # (from /etc/ppp/options) lcp-echo-interval 30 # (from /etc/ppp/options) hide-password # (from /etc/ppp/options) ipparam to-work # (from /etc/ppp/peers/to-work) proxyarp # (from /etc/ppp/options) nobsdcomp # (from /etc/ppp/options.pptp) nodeflate # (from /etc/ppp/options.pptp) require-mppe-128 # (from /etc/ppp/peers/to-work) noipx # (from /etc/ppp/options) using channel 12 Using interface ppp0 Connect: ppp0 <--> /dev/pts/13 sent [LCP ConfReq id=0x1 ] rcvd [LCP ConfReq id=0x0 < 17 04 07 ff>] sent [LCP ConfRej id=0x0 < 17 04 07 ff>] rcvd [LCP ConfAck id=0x1 ] rcvd [LCP ConfReq id=0x1 ] sent [LCP ConfAck id=0x1 ] sent [LCP EchoReq id=0x0 magic=0x8395b784] rcvd [EAP Request id=0x17 Identity ] sent [EAP Response id=0x17 Identity ] rcvd [LCP EchoRep id=0x0 magic=0x1cc54d5e] rcvd [LCP TermReq id=0x3 1c c5 4d 5e 00 3c cd 74 00 00 03 ae] LCP terminated by peer (^\M-EM^^@ References: <495950C2.8050600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <643834.37559.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > I do not trust all these encryption methods. > > If transmission can be intercepted - no way that it > is secure anymore. > That's incorrect; precisely the beauty of asymmetric (public-key) cryptography is that users can communicate securely over a public channel. Several cryptographic methods have been proven to be mathematically secure. A different issue of course are problems in particular implementations or configurations, the human factor etc that may make a scheme vulnerable. Cheers, Fernando --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 15:50:39 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:50:39 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <643834.37559.qm-GjowA9KT+PL5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <643834.37559.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495A434F.2050607@rogers.com> Fernando Duran wrote: > --- Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > >> I do not trust all these encryption methods. >> >> If transmission can be intercepted - no way that it >> is secure anymore. >> >> > > That's incorrect; precisely the beauty of asymmetric > (public-key) cryptography is that users can > communicate securely over a public channel. > > Several cryptographic methods have been proven to be > mathematically secure. A different issue of course are > problems in particular implementations or > configurations, the human factor etc that may make a > scheme vulnerable. > > And when a RADIUS server is used, the "password" is changed frequently, both every time you connect and periodically afterward and each connection will also have it's own key. With a pre-shared password, it's only changed as often as you change it and everyone uses the same key, though IIRC, the underlying symmetrical key gets changed frequently. Modern encryption techniques are quite secure (for now) and harder to break, than tapping in at the phone company, ISP or even in the office. Social engineering can make it even easier to break in. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 16:07:55 2008 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:07:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <495A434F.2050607-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <495A434F.2050607@rogers.com> Message-ID: <790814.81651.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- James Knott wrote: > Fernando Duran wrote: > > --- Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > > > > > >> I do not trust all these encryption methods. > >> > >> If transmission can be intercepted - no way that > it > >> is secure anymore. > >> > >> > > > > That's incorrect; precisely the beauty of > asymmetric > > (public-key) cryptography is that users can > > communicate securely over a public channel. > > > > Several cryptographic methods have been proven to > be > > mathematically secure. A different issue of course > are > > problems in particular implementations or > > configurations, the human factor etc that may make > a > > scheme vulnerable. > > > > > > And when a RADIUS server is used, the "password" is > changed frequently, > both every time you connect and periodically > afterward and each > connection will also have it's own key. With a > pre-shared password, > it's only changed as often as you change it and > everyone uses the same > key, though IIRC, the underlying symmetrical key > gets changed frequently. > > Modern encryption techniques are quite secure (for > now) and harder to > break, than tapping in at the phone company, ISP or > even in the office. > Social engineering can make it even easier to break > in. > Absolutely agree. For instance when law enforcement agents in the USA found an encrypted disk in the computer of a mob boss they didn't make a copy and sent it off to NSA or a similar agency for decryption (well, maybe they did and we never knew he); they just planted a hidden camera and captured the password as the bad guy was typing it. "Crackers" go to after the weakest link and encryption is most likely not it. > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 16:18:20 2008 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:18:20 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <790814.81651.qm-s87jQlkInOn5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <790814.81651.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495A49CC.3060005@gmail.com> Fernando Duran wrote: > --- James Knott wrote: > > > Absolutely agree. I give up ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 02:56:53 2008 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:56:53 -0500 Subject: riddle me this Message-ID: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> I went to the PBS website and tried to view the online videos. However I got the message below. How the heck do they know I am in Canada? What are some ways to bypass this? /teddy PBS website says... We're sorry, but due to rights restrictions this program is only available for online viewing in the United States. You appear to be connected to the Internet from outside this area. If you feel that we have made a mistake in detecting your location, please send in your comments . For viewers in Canada who may support nearby public television stations in the United States, we appreciate your support but regrettably cannot legally offer this programming online outside the United States. If you would like to purchase "Lord of the Ants" on home video or DVD, please visit the WGBH Boston Video shop -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 03:15:21 2008 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:15:21 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <495ADF75.3040909-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> teddymills wrote: > How the heck do they know I am in Canada? > What are some ways to bypass this? Your IP address. Use a web proxy based in the US Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 03:59:44 2008 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:59:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <495ADF75.3040909-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, teddymills wrote: > I went to the PBS website and tried to view the online videos. > However I got the message below. > How the heck do they know I am in Canada? Accurate records mapping IP address space to country/city have been available for some time. > What are some ways to bypass this? An anonymous proxy is an option and will generally work. It is worth noting that hulu.com figured out a way around this some time back as a result of the flash transmission occuring directly (not via the proxy). A VPN terminated in the US is now needed to access hulu.com. I can't say whether a proxy would be sufficient to access PBS or whether a VPN would be needed. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 12:06:05 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:06:05 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <495ADF75.3040909-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <495B602D.1010302@rogers.com> teddymills wrote: > > I went to the PBS website and tried to view the online videos. > However I got the message below. > How the heck do they know I am in Canada? > What are some ways to bypass this? > > /teddy > > > PBS website says... > > We're sorry, but due to rights restrictions this program is only > available for online viewing > in the United States. You appear to be connected to the Internet from > outside this area. > If you feel that we have made a mistake in detecting your location, > please send in your comments > . > > For viewers in Canada who may support nearby public television > stations in the United States, > we appreciate your support but regrettably cannot legally offer this > programming online outside > the United States. If you would like to purchase "Lord of the Ants" on > home video or DVD, > please visit the WGBH Boston Video shop > > > They know approximately where your IP address is located. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 13:40:13 2008 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:40:13 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <200812310840.13862.amarjan@pobox.com> On December 30, 2008 10:59:44 pm Robert Brockway wrote: > I can't say whether a proxy would be sufficient to access PBS or whether a > VPN would be needed. A SOCKS proxy should also work -- Flash supports it. I've used one to access Youtube from networks that banned it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 15:47:16 2008 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:47:16 +0100 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <643834.37559.qm-GjowA9KT+PL5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <643834.37559.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495B9404.5080706@gmail.com> Fernando Duran wrote: ... > That's incorrect; precisely the beauty of asymmetric > (public-key) cryptography is that users can > communicate securely over a public channel. > > Several cryptographic methods have been proven to be > mathematically secure. A different issue of course are... Now that would be *BIG* news. Just to split hairs, public key algorithms have never actually been *mathematically* proven. There's still a chance that some bizzare mathematical theory will appear which can cause the very principle of public key encryption to crumble. The whole thing hinges on an idea that some problems require more computational power to solve than others. E.g., multiplying two primes together is easier than it is to factor the product of two primes. The proof thing is academic though. The sentiment is totally right. The best minds in the world have staked their reputation on testing, investigating and researching ways to break these things and while particular methods might have had vulnerabilities which changed the amount of computation required, none have reported success in shaking the underlying principle. "As for other popular public key cryptosystems, no mathematical proof of difficulty has been published for ECC as of 2006[update]. However, the U.S. National Security Agency has endorsed ECC technology by including it in its Suite B set of recommended algorithms and allows their use for protecting information classified up to top secret with 384-bit keys.[4] Although the RSA patent has expired, there are patents in force covering some aspects of ECC." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography (...with the bizzare exception of quantum computing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm ) Does anyone have any better sources? -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 17:47:21 2008 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:47:21 -0500 Subject: Forwarded distro question Message-ID: <20081231124721.qy9qakt74sckc0k8@easymail.pathcom.com> A friend, not on this list, asks for recommendations of a specific distributions, "that will run on a Lenovo T-43 laptop and will be able to use the built-in WiFi." Suggestions? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 18:15:29 2008 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:15:29 -0500 Subject: Forwarded distro question In-Reply-To: <20081231124721.qy9qakt74sckc0k8-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <20081231124721.qy9qakt74sckc0k8@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <495BB6C1.7010102@rogers.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > A friend, not on this list, asks for recommendations of a specific > distributions, "that will run on a Lenovo T-43 laptop and will be able > to use the built-in WiFi." > > Suggestions? You might try the Linux Thinkpad List, but generally OpenSUSE works well with ThinkPads. The linux-thinkpad mailing list home page is at: http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 18:15:55 2008 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:15:55 -0500 Subject: Forwarded distro question In-Reply-To: <20081231124721.qy9qakt74sckc0k8-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <20081231124721.qy9qakt74sckc0k8@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <495BB6DB.1060002@alteeve.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > A friend, not on this list, asks for recommendations of a specific > distributions, "that will run on a Lenovo T-43 laptop and will be able > to use the built-in WiFi." > > Suggestions? Ubuntu 8.10 works out of the box on my T43p (inc. wireless and bluetooth). Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 19:37:16 2008 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:37:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <495B9404.5080706-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <495B9404.5080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <723652.52648.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Mike Kallies wrote: > Fernando Duran wrote: > ... > > That's incorrect; precisely the beauty of > asymmetric > > (public-key) cryptography is that users can > > communicate securely over a public channel. > > > > Several cryptographic methods have been proven to > be > > mathematically secure. A different issue of course > are... > > Now that would be *BIG* news. > > Just to split hairs, public key algorithms have > never actually been > *mathematically* proven. I think I know what you mean, to elaborate: the encryption methods are as strong as the underlying algorithm; *if* the math for the algorithm is considered strong and secure (like factoring two large primes) then the encryption can be proven to be secure. Actually, with unlimited CPU power and time a public-key encryption is breakable in theory. So when somebody says that some cryptographic scheme is "secure" they would have to say under which computation power/time limit and it's implied that also "if no breakthrough factoring/whatever math method is discovered". The basic idea I wanted to convey for any cryptographic luddite is that cryptography is "considered secure" (secure in practice / for relevant cases) and when there's a security breach is almost always because of some other entry point. I'm saying "almost always" to be cautious but in fact I've never heard for example of a real remote server that was compromised purely by cracking a current cryptographic algorithm, if somebody knows of a case I'd love to have a link. Most of the security problems in servers come from 1) weak passwords and 2) unpatched old software. I agree on the rest of your message too. Regards, Fernando There's still a chance that > some bizzare > mathematical theory will appear which can cause the > very principle of > public key encryption to crumble. > > The whole thing hinges on an idea that some problems > require more > computational power to solve than others. E.g., > multiplying two primes > together is easier than it is to factor the product > of two primes. > > The proof thing is academic though. The sentiment > is totally right. > The best minds in the world have staked their > reputation on testing, > investigating and researching ways to break these > things and while > particular methods might have had vulnerabilities > which changed the > amount of computation required, none have reported > success in shaking > the underlying principle. > > > "As for other popular public key cryptosystems, no > mathematical proof of > difficulty has been published for ECC as of > 2006[update]. However, the > U.S. National Security Agency has endorsed ECC > technology by including > it in its Suite B set of recommended algorithms and > allows their use for > protecting information classified up to top secret > with 384-bit keys.[4] > Although the RSA patent has expired, there are > patents in force covering > some aspects of ECC." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography > > (...with the bizzare exception of quantum computing > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm ) > > Does anyone have any better sources? > > > -Mike > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 22:05:19 2008 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:05:19 -0500 Subject: Wireless Office In-Reply-To: <723652.52648.qm-j/iYNmxAq935nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <723652.52648.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fernando Duran wrote: [ ... ] > I'm saying "almost always" to be cautious but in fact > I've never heard for example of a real remote server > that was compromised purely by cracking a current > cryptographic algorithm, if somebody knows of a case > I'd love to have a link. Most of the security problems > in servers come from 1) weak passwords and 2) > unpatched old software. According to Slashdot, SSL certificates may no longer be trustworthy.. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists