From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 11:55:49 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:55:49 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <46FEFE45.4070005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do not have the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on how I can still learn Linux, are there any resources that I can use to simulate Linux, I currently use cygwin is that a good place to start or are there other resources available As well, can someone recommend good online Linux tutorials. Thanks > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:39:17 -0400 > From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: re: Learning to Program > > Henry de Valence wrote: > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning about > > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this would be a > > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit at a time, > > because I have homework and other stuff. > > Here's a place to start. The I Can Program site offers a number of linux > oriented programming courses that are free of charge, with the proviso > that students will make a donation to the Cancer Society (you choose the > amount) upon completion of the course. > > http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html > > I'm sure that other people on this list will have other ideas for you as > well. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger? http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 12:40:23 2007 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:40:23 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: Kevin Morris wrote: > Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do not have the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on how I can still learn Linux, are there any resources that I can use to simulate Linux, I currently use cygwin is that a good place to start or are there other resources available > As well, can someone recommend good online Linux tutorials. Thanks Does the umsdos intallation still exist? This used to allow you to install Linux in a directory in your DOS filesystem, and boot Linux, replacing DOS, from a DOS command line. Not as good as a dual boot, but simpler. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 12:53:15 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:53:15 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: References: <46FD3369.8090907@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071001125315.GA16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 01:50:38PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > True. I think that the keyboard is "Bilinual Canadian" so it should > work for us too. Probably good for us, in fact (like spinach). Unless the layout is so messed up you can't type on it. > I don't know the layout. Z243.200-91 is the intellectual property of > SCC. I think that there is an extra key on the home row, just to the > left of the Enter key. > http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/its-nit/standards/tbits05/crit05_e.asp?format=print > > Nice table. Perhaps wrong. I don't know what the colour coding > means. > > - The table says that the Eee has a camera. The Anitec ad lists the > webcam on the C$330 and C$430 models, not the C$290 model. Seems the price is: $290 for 2GB and 256MB add $40 for webcam add $100 to double flash and ram to 4GB and 512MB. > - The table lists flash on the Eee as 8G but Anitec lists it as 2G on the > lower two models and 4G on the higher one. 8G is the maximum you can currently get. > - The table says that RAM is 512M. Anitec says 256M on the lower two > models. 512MB is the maximum you can currently get. > - the mass of the Eee looks nicely low. Yeah only about half of what my wife's laptop weighs. > - The Eee's display has the same number of pixels as my Nokia 770. > I'd like more. (My Nokia cost half of what the Anitec charges > for the Eee, but that was an end-of-life bargain.) Yeah, a bit more screen would be nice. It looks like the case is big enough for maybe a 10", but who knows what that would do the the battery life and cost. 1280x800 wouldn't be bad if you could get that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 12:54:43 2007 From: Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Alexander Short) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:54:43 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: VMWare has a free server that then you can install whichever linux dist you want even from CD and learn the ins and outs of installing and configuring that way. I'm in disbelief that you can't afford a linux box; as my linux box is a p3-700 that I was given 7 yrs ago from my last workplace. A similar box could probably be found for under $50. The other method is sign up for cheap webhosting that includes terminal access. ? ________________________________________ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Morris Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:56 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: re: Learning to Program Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do not have the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on how I can still learn Linux, are there any resources that I can use to simulate Linux, I currently use cygwin is that a good place to start or are there other resources available As well, can someone recommend good online Linux tutorials. Thanks > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:39:17 -0400 > From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: re: Learning to Program > > Henry de Valence wrote: > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning about > > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this would be a > > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit at a time, > > because I have homework and other stuff. > > Here's a place to start. The I Can Program site offers a number of linux > oriented programming courses that are free of charge, with the proviso > that students will make a donation to the Cancer Society (you choose the > amount) upon completion of the course. > > http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html > > I'm sure that other people on this list will have other ideas for you as > well. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists ________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger? Get it now! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 12:55:43 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:55:43 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: <20070929160523.ac27dea7.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20070929160523.ac27dea7.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20071001125543.GB16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 04:05:23PM -0400, Howard Gibson wrote: > I have an Acer Aspire 3620 that came with Linux. The Linux turned out to be something called Linpus Linux, and it was a minimal install with nothing more than a command line. I am assuming I avoided the Microsoft tax, but otherwise, I had to install an appropriate, up to date Linux distribution. > > Are we talking Linux, as in a kernal, or GNU/Linux, as in a functioal desktop? The Asus EEE PC 70x uses a modified Xandros complete with X and office application and such, and a nice menu system for those who don't know linux and just want something more like a palm interface where you just pick your application and do stuff. People have already started talking about how to install Debian on it (since it doesn't have a CD drive, you need to boot from a USB key or similar). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 12:57:29 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:57:29 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <46FD56E7.2070105-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <200709272038.07309.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FC5C18.7070308@chrisaitken.net> <200709272209.35435.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FD0BBD.80102@chrisaitken.net> <46FD443E.5020702@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281157m48422cacp6d46b1a83d5a0c29@mail.gmail.com> <46FD5169.5020108@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071001125729.GC16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 03:32:55PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Okay, I tried that... > > What is the location of the directory of C header files that match your > running > kernel? [/usr/src/linux/include] > /usr/src/kernels/2.6.22.5-76.fc7-i686/include > > The path "/usr/src/kernels/2.6.22.5-76.fc7-i686/include" is not an existing > directory. > > Then I used the File Brwoser to see if this directory exists. It > doesn't. So I changed the path to reflect what is actually there... > > What is the location of the directory of C header files that match your > running > kernel? [/usr/src/linux/include] > /usr/src/kernels/2.6.22.7-85.fc7-i686/include > > The directory of kernel headers (version 2.6.22.7-85.fc7) does not match > your > running kernel (version 2.6.22.5-76.fc7). Even if the module were to > compile > successfully, it would not load into the running kernel. > > So the kernel module doesn't match the running kernel? If you have headers for 2.6.22.7-85 but are running 2.6.22.5-76 perhaps that means there is an update you should have installed and then reboot to be running a current kernel. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:00:08 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:00:08 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <46FEFBED.9080605-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 09:29:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm trying to get on the Internet in the W98SE guest. It's not > recognizing the PCI controller. WHich is, I guess why it's not finding > the correct NIC, which means I can't get onto the Internet to try > Starcraft n Battle.Net, which is the whole point of all of this. I don't > know why the guest won't just use the perfectly- working NIC in the > linux host. > > I used to have a Hardware Browser in fedora 7. It's gone. I remember > when I did the clean install I had too many panels and panel sub-menus. > I found a way to consolidate them but I guess, in retrospect, I /did/ > lose a couple of things. One of them was the Hardware Browser. I'm > hoping to go in there, find the PCI controller, then tell W98SE guest > that that is the controller (and grab the driver from the Internet if > neccesary). Did you configure vmware to use bridged networking, or NAT or host only? Host only won't work for this. bridged is great if you have a router on the network that could give you an ip by dhcp. NAT is good if you use the host as the internet gateway and want vmware hidden behind it. As for win98, make sure it has the pcnet32 ethernet driver installed. I would think it came with it, but I am not sure. If not you should be able to install the vmware utilities insude win98 (it should be nagging you about it if you haven't already) which probably include the network drivers. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:01:25 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:01:25 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <46FD52C6.1040507-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <20070925122153.22b9f732@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <46F95A63.1030204@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251555p43a2af0tbbe7b2fe5d441cf7@mail.gmail.com> <46F9A82D.8040900@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251919m771f8cb7w671e6db9dcf33265@mail.gmail.com> <46FAB048.4040308@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709261557p5e5912f4o7f93167a92b105e9@mail.gmail.com> <46FC598A.9020402@chrisaitken.net> <46FD52C6.1040507@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071001130125.GE16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 03:15:18PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm inching closer. I tried Starcraft (in Battle.Net) again (after > installing that any-any update last night). This time I got the entire > Battle.Net background right away with what looked liked two empty status > bars. I eventually had to do a manual log off. I got a different message > this time: > > "There is a new version of the software available - Battle.Net requires > that you use the new version". > > I'm skeptical though - when my son plays Starcraft online he is not told > he needs the new version of the software. He probably already updated a long long time ago. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:05:48 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:05:48 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1191243948.19044.209.camel@stan64.site> you cant install free vmware server and but up a distro? you can buy a referb PC that will run linux (no monitor) for 90$ these days, how much time (time=$$$$) will you waste on the quest for emulation? Post for TLUG members, maybe someone has a donat'r box. I've got a bunch of IBM pent 266 type boxes that are going to go out to the road soon .... -tl On Mon, 2007-10-01 at 07:55 -0400, Kevin Morris wrote: > Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do not have > the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on how I can still learn > Linux, are there any resources that I can use to simulate Linux, I > currently use cygwin is that a good place to start or are there other > resources available > As well, can someone recommend good online Linux tutorials. Thanks > > > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:39:17 -0400 > > From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: [TLUG]: re: Learning to Program > > > > Henry de Valence wrote: > > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning > about > > > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this > would be a > > > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit > at a time, > > > because I have homework and other stuff. > > > > Here's a place to start. The I Can Program site offers a number of > linux > > oriented programming courses that are free of charge, with the > proviso > > that students will make a donation to the Cancer Society (you choose > the > > amount) upon completion of the course. > > > > http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html > > > > I'm sure that other people on this list will have other ideas for > you as > > well. > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger Get it now! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:14:26 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:14:26 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working Message-ID: <1f13df280710010614q291c72d7tee96f5da5a3d1f8a@mail.gmail.com> On 9/28/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 12:43:18AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > I recently had my /home/ hard drive crash and burn ... that will > > probably be the subject of another post. The good news is that my > > backup regime worked (mostly). So this question is about the new SATA > > drive I bought to replace it, but ... I've never dealt with SATA > > before. I bought a 500Gb WD on College Street. I have a Gigabyte > > motherboard with an Athlon 2700+ on it which has two SATA connectors. > > The drive will not register in the BIOS (or with the OS the one time I > > tried). > > > > Steps I've tried: > > > > - I've reseated the SATA cable at both ends (ad infinitum) > > - I've tried both SATA connectors > > - I've reseated the SATA drive power > > - the BIOS lets me select "IDE" or "RAID" mode for SATA, I've tried both. > > - the BIOS has three sets of two IDE drives, although only two PATA > > connectors: on the idea that the last of these are for the SATA drives > > (am I right?), I went in there and told it to auto-detect. No joy, > > although it takes much longer to say "no drive" when this new one is > > connected. > > Which motherboard is it? > > You do NOT want IDE as the mode for SATA. > > Gigabyte has a stupid tendancy of making you hit a function key in the > bios to get to advanced settings, and they generally don't like telling > you about it anywhere easy to find. > > > - the drive is powering up and spinning, it can be heard and felt. > > - after the "press DEL to enter BIOS" message there's a SATA detection > > and "User mode" message: this has its own key, and I can enter it but > > do nothing because it detects no drives. > > - I have several computers, but all are older and none of the others > > have SATA to connect to. > > > > It seems to me that there are several possibilities: > > - the drive is bad > > Not that likely, but could be. > > > - the cable is bad > > Could be. Try another one. > > > - the mobo SATA is bad > > Seems unlikely but could be. > > > - the drive is larger than the mobo SATA chip can handle > > The limit is LBA48 so not possible. > > Most likely is a misconfigured bios or a bad cable. > > > Do I return the drive? Do I buy a PCI SATA card and cable to put in > > one of the other computers? Do I whack the mobo or the drive with a > > hammer? Suggestions are most welcome, as I'm thoroughly chumped (wait > > ... Is that "stumped" or "chumped?"). > > So far I have never had issues with SATA as long as I had the SATA > controller set to its native mode in the bios. Would be nice to know > which chipset you have on that board. > > Most decent computer stores should be able to at least if you bring the > drive back, plug it into a test machine of theirs to tell if they can > detect it or not. And if their machine can't detect it either, then > they should just exchange it. [I posted this message about 48 hours ago, it doesn't seem to have gone to the list. Sorry for the possible double post ...] Thanks to everyone who posted suggestions. I tried another cable, no joy. Today I took the drive back and the store showed that the drive itself is fine. So we're down to a very limited number of options. When I told the store guy the motherboard I'm using (Gigabyte 7VT600-P-RZ - and I do have the most recent BIOS) he said that he'd worked with that generation of Gigabytes and the drive WON'T be recognized by the BIOS: you have to boot into the OS and load the right drivers (he uses only Windows). So I went home and put the disk back in the computer and booted Debian testing kernel 2.6.21-2-k7 and ... no luck. The chipset is apparently the VIA Apollo KT600, and the sata_via kernel module is loading, but I don't see a new drive. I don't even know how it would be designated ... Is it /dev/sd? ? Is there any program I should run? I don't see anything that looks new or different in /var/log/messages , although I have to admit I'm not an expert and I didn't use a fine tooth comb, but ... there doesn't appear to be a new drive. Thanks for the help so far. Anyone got further ideas? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:15:00 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:15:00 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Henry de Valence wrote: > Hi. I'm 15, and I started using Linux last February, and haven't looked back. > I started with Ubuntu, but then I switched to Kubuntu. Right now I'm running > Gutsy Gibbon, because Fiesty doesn't support my video card. Anyways, I know a > bit about Java and C++ (I have the basic stuff about datatypes, control > structures, functions and recursion, etc, and some OOP stuff.) What I know I > learned partly by myself and partly in a summer course I took (the Grade 11 > CS course, but according to my teacher we went beyond what we were supposed > to). > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning about > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this would be a > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit at a time, > because I have homework and other stuff. The other thing is that I'd like to > learn programming for KDE 4 applications, but right now I'm running 7.10, > which uses KDE 3.5. I thought this would be a good place to ask for > suggestions. > > Harry de Valence I can't make much of suggestion, being a perl-type myself. :) I did want to say "Welcome to the industry!" though. I am also entirely self-taught, and owe a *huge* debt to TLUG and other great mailing lists. Check the archives to see how often I ask questions, and the quality (and patience) of the replies! I have three general suggestions though; a) Whatever language you settle on (Python, etc), find a dedicated mailing list and join it. For example, perl being my drug of choice, Toronto Perl Mongers was the list for me. TLUG rocks, but sometimes you find a wierd quirk that you need to ask a dedicated community about. b) Write clean code. Period, full stop. It doesn't really matter what style you adopt, but stick to it and be consistent. It's frightening how quickly a great program can go to hell because of sloppy code formatting. My last job was working on a 9yo program that had never been properly formatted. I would lose upwards of an hour whenever I started for on a new file just cleaning up the code so I could follow the logic. c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. As you learn, you will be tempted to use more and more complex code that incorporates new tricks you have learned... Don't fall into this trap! *Always* use the simplest, most obvious steps, tools and commands to accomplish a task. There is a true beauty in simplicity! The senior programmer at my last job showed me a short article on the progression of a programmer by showing a simple "Hello, World!" script. I wish I could find it again, but it went something like this: - Beginner: #!/usr/bin/perl print "Hello, World!\n"; - Intermediate: #!/usr/bin/perl my @words; my $foo="Hello"; my $bar="World"; push @words, $foo; push @words, $bar; my $string; for (0.. at words) { if ( $_ == 1 ) { $string.=", "; $string.=$words[$_]; } else { $string.=$words[$_]; } } $string.="!\n"; print $string; - Expert; #!/usr/bin/perl print "Hello, World!\n" Maybe someone here can find the original (much better written) example of what I am trying to get at, but hopefully you see what I mean. :P My $0.02! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:21:02 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:21:02 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 03:33:26PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > Thanks to everyone who posted suggestions. I tried another cable, no > joy. Today I took the drive back and the store showed that the drive > itself is fine. So we're down to a very limited number of options. > When I told the store guy the motherboard I'm using (Gigabyte > 7VT600-P-RZ - and I do have the most recent BIOS) he said that he'd > worked with that generation of Gigabytes and the drive WON'T be > recognized by the BIOS: you have to boot into the OS and load the > right drivers (he uses only Windows). So I went home and put the disk > back in the computer and booted Debian testing kernel 2.6.21-2-k7 and > ... no luck. The chipset is apparently the VIA Apollo KT600, and the > sata_via kernel module is loading, but I don't see a new drive. I > don't even know how it would be designated ... Is it /dev/sd? ? Is > there any program I should run? I don't see anything that looks new > or different in /var/log/messages , although I have to admit I'm not > an expert and I didn't use a fine tooth comb, but ... there doesn't > appear to be a new drive. Well is far as I can tell from the documentation, it should work. It seems the manual says the first SATA port (SATA0) is the one closest to the PCI slots. So connect the drive to there. Apparently RAID mode is weird on that board, so you may have to set it to IDE mode instead for the SATA part. The guy is correct that windows needs help to see SATA drives, but windows xp always needed help for SATA. Make sure 'Onchip SATA' is enabled. Make sure you use a distribution new enough to support the chipset. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:22:40 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:22:40 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <4700F2D4.4060709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4700f476.1239400a.13f4.ffffb03b@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of Madison Kelly > Sent: Monday 01 October 2007 09:15 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. As > you learn, you will be tempted to use more and more complex > code that incorporates new tricks you have learned... Don't > fall into this trap! *Always* use the simplest, most obvious > steps, tools and commands to accomplish a task. There is a > true beauty in simplicity! > > The senior programmer at my last job showed me a short > article on the progression of a programmer by showing a > simple "Hello, World!" script. > I wish I could find it again, but it went something like this: Very true. A slight twist to this: the expert makes the solution to a difficult problem look obvious and easy to follow. Aim for this with everything you do, no matter how complicated the problem. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:22:18 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:22:18 -0400 Subject: [SOLVED] Problems with sound In-Reply-To: <20070930161809.GA13795-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20070921180124.GA8072@waltdnes.org> <20070930161809.GA13795@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20071001132218.GG16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 12:18:09PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > After the umpteenth repetition of kernel-rebuild/reboot/alsaconf, alsa > has mysteriously started working again (mpg123, mplayer, audacious, etc). > The only thing that I did differently was to... > > - remove kernel-based alsa support entirely (not even built as a module) > in favour of alsa-driver and rebooted. Makes it sound like your userspace alsa and the kernel stuff wasn't the same version. > - when I rebuilt the kernel with alsa support and re-booted, it worked > > gcc is "economical" in that it only rebuilds what is necessary. I > assume that it was including some previous-version stuff rather than > overwriting it with new code. Totally removing alsa support may have > cleaned it out, and allowed for a fresh start when building it the next > time. No gcc does what it is told. Make tries to be efficient. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:25:37 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:25:37 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071001132537.GH16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 08:40:23AM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > Does the umsdos intallation still exist? This used to allow you to > install Linux in a directory in your DOS filesystem, and boot Linux, > replacing DOS, from a DOS command line. Not as good as a dual boot, > but simpler. No umsdos is fortunately long dead and gone. It was a horrible idea that just aimed at people who were unwilling to do a simple partition resizing. Besides if you have enough disk space for that, then you have enough diskspace to resize your partitions and do a proper install. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:26:29 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:26:29 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071001132629.GI16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 08:54:43AM -0400, Alexander Short wrote: > VMWare has a free server that then you can install whichever linux dist you want even from CD and learn the ins and outs of installing and configuring that way. I'm in disbelief that you can't afford a linux box; as my linux box is a p3-700 that I was given 7 yrs ago from my last workplace. A similar box could probably be found for under $50. The other method is sign up for cheap webhosting that includes terminal access. > ? Certainly a couple of years ago a P3 with 128MB ram and 20GB disk was $200. I think today you get P4 with 256 or 512MB ram for that price. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:33:17 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:33:17 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: References: <46FD4671.2040905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280710010633r70e6899eh377cd3a91d54d17@mail.gmail.com> On 9/28/07, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > | Hmmm... Considering the virtual parity with the $U.S., I wonder why the > | significant price difference? > > I'm not sure that there is a real price difference: > > US$250 is listed on a non-US site (note: they use the spelling > "colour") which seems to be wrong about a number of detals. Perhaps > that price was in some publicity bumpf from before the recent fall of > the US dollar. > > C$290 and C$260 from different Vancouver stores. One of which has > been partly taken down. I heard (or read, I don't even remember anymore) that Canadian/U.S. price differences are likely to persist for months, even if the loonie stays equal to the U.S. dollar. Vendors in Canada don't want their prices to fluctuate with the dollar because that would probably upset people even more than a price that's simply higher. So the vendors favour themselves by keeping the price high. Think about how this would look with big ticket items: "But ... I was on the lot yesterday, and the Corvette was $77,000!" "Well sir, the Canadian dollar went up by half a point last night, so now it's $83,000. You could always come back tomorrow ..." -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:48:47 2007 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:48:47 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <4700F2D4.4060709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20071001134847.8EF7B83833@sarg.ryerson.ca> >>>> Madison Kelly wrote: > c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. I presume she meant: c) Don't be a show off; write self-documenting code. I am firmly in the camp that the only useful programming documentation is well-written code and executable unit tests. Everything else gets out of date and becomes worse than useless. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 13:57:34 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:57:34 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <20071001134847.8EF7B83833-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> <20071001134847.8EF7B83833@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4700FCCE.8030509@alteeve.com> Dave Mason wrote: >>>>> Madison Kelly wrote: > >> c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. > > I presume she meant: > > c) Don't be a show off; write self-documenting code. And you would be right. When the heck will I learn to have my coffee first, *then* write emails? sheesh. :P Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 14:02:44 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:02:44 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710010633r70e6899eh377cd3a91d54d17-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <46FD4671.2040905@rogers.com> <1f13df280710010633r70e6899eh377cd3a91d54d17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071001140244.GJ16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 09:33:17AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > I heard (or read, I don't even remember anymore) that Canadian/U.S. > price differences are likely to persist for months, even if the loonie > stays equal to the U.S. dollar. Vendors in Canada don't want their > prices to fluctuate with the dollar because that would probably upset > people even more than a price that's simply higher. So the vendors > favour themselves by keeping the price high. Think about how this > would look with big ticket items: "But ... I was on the lot yesterday, > and the Corvette was $77,000!" "Well sir, the Canadian dollar went up > by half a point last night, so now it's $83,000. You could always > come back tomorrow ..." If the car comes from the US and the canadian dollar went up, the price of the car should be lower and the customer should be happy with the new lower price. Of course people with inventory already paid for the stuff, and don't want to lower the price for stuff they already bought since that cuts into profits quite badly. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 14:06:51 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:06:51 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <20071001132102.GF16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> On 10/1/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 03:33:26PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who posted suggestions. I tried another cable, no > > joy. Today I took the drive back and the store showed that the drive > > itself is fine. So we're down to a very limited number of options. > > When I told the store guy the motherboard I'm using (Gigabyte > > 7VT600-P-RZ - and I do have the most recent BIOS) he said that he'd > > worked with that generation of Gigabytes and the drive WON'T be > > recognized by the BIOS: you have to boot into the OS and load the > > right drivers (he uses only Windows). So I went home and put the disk > > back in the computer and booted Debian testing kernel 2.6.21-2-k7 and > > ... no luck. The chipset is apparently the VIA Apollo KT600, and the > > sata_via kernel module is loading, but I don't see a new drive. I > > don't even know how it would be designated ... Is it /dev/sd? ? Is > > there any program I should run? I don't see anything that looks new > > or different in /var/log/messages , although I have to admit I'm not > > an expert and I didn't use a fine tooth comb, but ... there doesn't > > appear to be a new drive. > > Well is far as I can tell from the documentation, it should work. > > It seems the manual says the first SATA port (SATA0) is the one closest > to the PCI slots. So connect the drive to there. Apparently RAID mode > is weird on that board, so you may have to set it to IDE mode instead > for the SATA part. Hooked up to that connector, set to IDE mode. > The guy is correct that windows needs help to see SATA drives, but > windows xp always needed help for SATA. > > Make sure 'Onchip SATA' is enabled. Done. > Make sure you use a distribution new enough to support the chipset. Debian testing, kernel 2.6.21-2-k7. It's auto-loading the sata_via kernel module. I'm still not seeing a drive. Here's an extract from /var/log/messages (in the name of brevity, I've included only the stuff I thought was related - I hope I haven't snipped too much): ... Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: sata_via 0000:00:0f.0: routed to hard irq line 11 Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata1: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x00019000 ctl 0x00019402 bmdma 0x0001a000 irq 16 Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata2: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x00019800 ctl 0x00019c02 bmdma 0x0001a008 irq 16 Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: scsi0 : sata_via ... Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata1: SATA link down 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 1 SControl 300) Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ATA: abnormal status 0x80 on port 0x00019007 Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: scsi1 : sata_via Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata2: SATA link down 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 0 SControl 300) Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ATA: abnormal status 0x7F on port 0x00019807 Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: Attempting manual resume ... This message was almost but not quite identical before the insertion of the drive: prior to the drive, both said "abnormal status 0x7F." I suppose that's progress. I'm mostly using "fdisk -l /dev/sd?" to see if I have new, unformatted drive ... What else would make sense? This is really making me think that I should buy a SATA PCI card ... That would allow me to use SATA drives in any of my other computers, so it might solve not only the current problem but potentially some future ones as well. Does that make sense? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 14:20:57 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:20:57 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 03:13:29PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: >On 9/30/07, Neil Watson wrote: >> Is it possible to run an IRC server that can encrypt client/server >> traffic? Which IRC servers and clients support encryption? > >The Jabber protocol is designed for this, although it's intended more >for instant-messaging-like systems, as opposed to the more >broadcast-like behaviour of IRC. I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 16 days http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 14:54:23 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:54:23 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <20071001142057.GC30144-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: > On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 03:13:29PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > >On 9/30/07, Neil Watson wrote: > >> Is it possible to run an IRC server that can encrypt client/server > >> traffic? Which IRC servers and clients support encryption? > > > >The Jabber protocol is designed for this, although it's intended more > >for instant-messaging-like systems, as opposed to the more > >broadcast-like behaviour of IRC. > > I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. > My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues > using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. If that's the case, then Jabber sounds like it is *exactly* what the doctor ordered. - You get to control the server (not Google/Yahoo/MSFT) - Data can be transmitted encrypted There may be more to things to have "secure against CSIS/CSE/NSA/...", but Jabber should resist usual attacks... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 14:56:23 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:56:23 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 10:06:51AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > Debian testing, kernel 2.6.21-2-k7. It's auto-loading the sata_via > kernel module. > > I'm still not seeing a drive. Here's an extract from > /var/log/messages (in the name of brevity, I've included only the > stuff I thought was related - I hope I haven't snipped too much): > > ... > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: sata_via 0000:00:0f.0: routed to hard irq line 11 > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata1: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x00019000 ctl > 0x00019402 bmdma 0x0001a000 irq 16 > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata2: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0x00019800 ctl > 0x00019c02 bmdma 0x0001a008 irq 16 > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: scsi0 : sata_via > ... > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata1: SATA link down 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 1 > SControl 300) > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ATA: abnormal status 0x80 on port 0x00019007 > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: scsi1 : sata_via > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ata2: SATA link down 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 0 > SControl 300) > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: ATA: abnormal status 0x7F on port 0x00019807 > Oct 1 09:47:06 glo kernel: Attempting manual resume > ... Hmm, so it sees the controller but it has errors trying to access the drive. > This message was almost but not quite identical before the insertion > of the drive: prior to the drive, both said "abnormal status 0x7F." I > suppose that's progress. I'm mostly using "fdisk -l /dev/sd?" to see > if I have new, unformatted drive ... What else would make sense? > > This is really making me think that I should buy a SATA PCI card ... > That would allow me to use SATA drives in any of my other computers, > so it might solve not only the current problem but potentially some > future ones as well. Does that make sense? It does make some sense if the onboard controller is really that much of a pain. What model is the drive again? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:00:15 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:00:15 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <20071001142057.GC30144-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: > > I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. > My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues > using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. Skype is good for such things. Well.. to some extend. The connection is supposed to be encrypted but as far as ai know they did not publish technical details about the protocol. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:01:17 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:01:17 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <47010BBD.1010905@rogers.com> Kevin Morris wrote: > Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do not have > the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on how I can still learn > Linux, are there any resources that I can use to simulate Linux, I > currently use cygwin is that a good place to start or are there other > resources available > As well, can someone recommend good online Linux tutorials. Thanks > Linux is available as a free download and many distros can resize existing partition during install, so why not just create a dual boot system? Failing that, there are some "live" distros that can run (slowly) from a CD. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:19:04 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:19:04 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <20071001132629.GI16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071001132629.GI16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47010FE8.2080307@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 08:54:43AM -0400, Alexander Short wrote: > >> VMWare has a free server that then you can install whichever linux dist you want even from CD and learn the ins and outs of installing and configuring that way. I'm in disbelief that you can't afford a linux box; as my linux box is a p3-700 that I was given 7 yrs ago from my last workplace. A similar box could probably be found for under $50. The other method is sign up for cheap webhosting that includes terminal access. >> ? >> > > Certainly a couple of years ago a P3 with 128MB ram and 20GB disk was > $200. I think today you get P4 with 256 or 512MB ram for that price. > > I recently bought a refurb IBM Netfinity server with 4 SCSI 18GB drives, 512 MB memory, redundant power supplies and a 1.13 GHz P3 for $150. Places like Tiger Direct, Factory Direct and Computer Warehouse Outlet, among others, often have off lease business computers for good prices. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:23:33 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:23:33 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <470110F5.6060003@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: > >> I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. >> My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues >> using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. >> > > Skype is good for such things. Well.. to some extend. The connection > is supposed to be encrypted but as far as ai know they did not publish > technical details about the protocol. > > ROT13. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:33:08 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:33:08 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <47010FE8.2080307-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071001132629.GI16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47010FE8.2080307@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1191252788.19044.218.camel@stan64.site> holy crap, was that a rack mount case too? any more left? where get? -tl On Mon, 2007-10-01 at 11:19 -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 08:54:43AM -0400, Alexander Short wrote: > > > >> VMWare has a free server that then you can install whichever linux dist you want even from CD and learn the ins and outs of installing and configuring that way. I'm in disbelief that you can't afford a linux box; as my linux box is a p3-700 that I was given 7 yrs ago from my last workplace. A similar box could probably be found for under $50. The other method is sign up for cheap webhosting that includes terminal access. > >> ? > >> > > > > Certainly a couple of years ago a P3 with 128MB ram and 20GB disk was > > $200. I think today you get P4 with 256 or 512MB ram for that price. > > > > > > I recently bought a refurb IBM Netfinity server with 4 SCSI 18GB drives, > 512 MB memory, redundant power supplies and a 1.13 GHz P3 for $150. > Places like Tiger Direct, Factory Direct and Computer Warehouse Outlet, > among others, often have off lease business computers for good prices. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:48:00 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:48:00 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <470110F5.6060003-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> <470110F5.6060003@rogers.com> Message-ID: <470116B0.1080106@alteeve.com> James Knott wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: >> >>> I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. >>> My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues >>> using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. >>> >> >> Skype is good for such things. Well.. to some extend. The connection >> is supposed to be encrypted but as far as ai know they did not publish >> technical details about the protocol. >> >> > > ROT13. ;-) > > D00d, ROT13 is soooo '90s! Everyone uses ROT26 now, I mean, *duh*! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:53:07 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:53:07 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <470116B0.1080106-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <470116B0.1080106@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <470117ba.1338400a.4e31.ffffb370@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of Madison Kelly > Sent: Monday 01 October 2007 11:48 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Encrypted IRC service > > James Knott wrote: > > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: > >> > >>> I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not > right for me. > >>> My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote > >>> colleagues using text, in near real time, and is > encrypted for privacy. > >>> > >> > >> Skype is good for such things. Well.. to some extend. The > connection > >> is supposed to be encrypted but as far as ai know they did not > >> publish technical details about the protocol. > >> > >> > > > > ROT13. ;-) > > > > > > D00d, ROT13 is soooo '90s! Everyone uses ROT26 now, I mean, *duh*! You might laugh, but a simple ASCII written as a shifted unicode set to look like a different language would likely fool most attempts at breaking it. Sometimes it's better to hide in plain sight. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:57:20 2007 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:57:20 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <47010BBD.1010905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> <47010BBD.1010905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <470118E0.2080407@ve3syb.ca> James Knott wrote: > Linux is available as a free download and many distros can resize > existing partition during install, so why not just create a dual boot > system? Failing that, there are some "live" distros that can run > (slowly) from a CD. There is also a live CD one can get (I don't remember from where at the moment) that boots in to gparted. It is a really nice program for resizing and partitioning of hard drives. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 15:57:17 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:57:17 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <470117ba.1338400a.4e31.ffffb370-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <470117ba.1338400a.4e31.ffffb370@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <470118DD.8060609@alteeve.com> Kareem Shehata wrote: > You might laugh, but a simple ASCII written as a shifted unicode set to look > like a different language would likely fool most attempts at breaking it. > Sometimes it's better to hide in plain sight. > > -kms "Security by obscurity is no security at all". Personally, if I care enough to protect something, I am going to do it right. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 16:18:31 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:18:31 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <4700F2D4.4060709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: thanks for the suggestions...will do my best to adhere to it... > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:15:00 -0400 > From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > Henry de Valence wrote: > > Hi. I'm 15, and I started using Linux last February, and haven't looked back. > > I started with Ubuntu, but then I switched to Kubuntu. Right now I'm running > > Gutsy Gibbon, because Fiesty doesn't support my video card. Anyways, I know a > > bit about Java and C++ (I have the basic stuff about datatypes, control > > structures, functions and recursion, etc, and some OOP stuff.) What I know I > > learned partly by myself and partly in a summer course I took (the Grade 11 > > CS course, but according to my teacher we went beyond what we were supposed > > to). > > > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning about > > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this would be a > > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit at a time, > > because I have homework and other stuff. The other thing is that I'd like to > > learn programming for KDE 4 applications, but right now I'm running 7.10, > > which uses KDE 3.5. I thought this would be a good place to ask for > > suggestions. > > > > Harry de Valence > > I can't make much of suggestion, being a perl-type myself. :) > > I did want to say "Welcome to the industry!" though. I am also entirely > self-taught, and owe a *huge* debt to TLUG and other great mailing > lists. Check the archives to see how often I ask questions, and the > quality (and patience) of the replies! > > I have three general suggestions though; > > a) Whatever language you settle on (Python, etc), find a dedicated > mailing list and join it. For example, perl being my drug of choice, > Toronto Perl Mongers was the list for me. TLUG rocks, but sometimes you > find a wierd quirk that you need to ask a dedicated community about. > > b) Write clean code. Period, full stop. It doesn't really matter what > style you adopt, but stick to it and be consistent. It's frightening how > quickly a great program can go to hell because of sloppy code > formatting. My last job was working on a 9yo program that had never been > properly formatted. I would lose upwards of an hour whenever I started > for on a new file just cleaning up the code so I could follow the logic. > > c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. As you learn, > you will be tempted to use more and more complex code that incorporates > new tricks you have learned... Don't fall into this trap! *Always* use > the simplest, most obvious steps, tools and commands to accomplish a > task. There is a true beauty in simplicity! > > The senior programmer at my last job showed me a short article on the > progression of a programmer by showing a simple "Hello, World!" script. > I wish I could find it again, but it went something like this: > > - Beginner: > #!/usr/bin/perl > print "Hello, World!\n"; > > - Intermediate: > #!/usr/bin/perl > my @words; > my $foo="Hello"; > my $bar="World"; > push @words, $foo; > push @words, $bar; > my $string; > for (0.. at words) > { > if ( $_ == 1 ) > { > $string.=", "; > $string.=$words[$_]; > } > else > { > $string.=$words[$_]; > } > } > $string.="!\n"; > print $string; > > - Expert; > #!/usr/bin/perl > print "Hello, World!\n" > > > Maybe someone here can find the original (much better written) > example of what I am trying to get at, but hopefully you see what I mean. :P > > My $0.02! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger? http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 16:44:55 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:44:55 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <1191252788.19044.218.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <20071001132629.GI16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47010FE8.2080307@rogers.com> <1191252788.19044.218.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <47012407.4020407@rogers.com> tleslie wrote: > holy crap, was that a rack mount case too? > any more left? where get? > > It was a tower case and I bought it from Factory Direct. You'd have to check with them to see if there are any more. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 16:53:08 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:53:08 -0400 Subject: Encrypted IRC service In-Reply-To: <470116B0.1080106-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20070930123249.GA14803@watson-wilson.ca> <20071001142057.GC30144@watson-wilson.ca> <470110F5.6060003@rogers.com> <470116B0.1080106@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <470125F4.4000901@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >>> On 10/1/07, Neil Watson wrote: >>> >>>> I don't have any experience with IRR. Perhaps it is not right for me. >>>> My requirements are the ability to collaborate with remote colleagues >>>> using text, in near real time, and is encrypted for privacy. >>>> >>> >>> Skype is good for such things. Well.. to some extend. The connection >>> is supposed to be encrypted but as far as ai know they did not publish >>> technical details about the protocol. >>> >>> >> >> ROT13. ;-) >> >> > > D00d, ROT13 is soooo '90s! Everyone uses ROT26 now, I mean, *duh*! > That would be the '90s B.C. (Before Computers) ;-) Actually, I believe it goes back to the Romans. It was supposedly created by Julius Caesar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From david-KgjyJOZJJiMsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 18:00:54 2007 From: david-KgjyJOZJJiMsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (David Payne) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:00:54 -0300 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFE45.4070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071001180054.GA4080@payneful.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 07:55:49AM -0400, Kevin Morris wrote: > > Great resource, I am new to programming and I currently do > not have the money to get a Linux box, any suggestions on > how I can still learn Linux, are there any resources that > I can use to simulate Linux, I currently use cygwin is > that a good place to start or are there other resources > available As well, can someone recommend good online Linux > tutorials. Thanks > Hey, failing everything else Cygwin is great. You can learn to program in it also since it has many programming tools. I have Cygwin on my Windows machine. David -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 22:20:52 2007 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <588844.75177.qm@web61324.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, What do I need to do to enable domain authenticated users to be able to mount and use USB memory key in Ubuntu 7.04? For that matter even local users other than the one created at the time of installation are not able to mount usb keys. TIA EK Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 22:49:57 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:49:57 -0400 Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <588844.75177.qm-kR5ePFgau4uA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <588844.75177.qm@web61324.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710011549j4ed53370t5aedfde4c45697d6@mail.gmail.com> I run a Gentoo system, which is therefore likely to be non-standard. In my case, though, removable media are automatically mounted if the current session is owned by a user in the plugdev group. I think this is a feature of recent Gnomes. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 23:25:19 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:25:19 -0700 Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710011549j4ed53370t5aedfde4c45697d6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <588844.75177.qm@web61324.mail.yahoo.com> <7ac602420710011549j4ed53370t5aedfde4c45697d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710011625m94c43f1i6220b982a0b462fb@mail.gmail.com> Ditto for KDE under Debian, so it should be similar in Ubuntu > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 00:16:18 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:16:18 -0700 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: <20071001125315.GA16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46FD3369.8090907@telly.org> <20071001125315.GA16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1191284178.6971.81.camel@localhost> sorta lost my place in this thread, but there's a little propaganda piece favouring the olpc over the eee on olpcnews: http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/competition/olpc_xo_asus_eee_pc.html matt > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price History Dept University of Toronto matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 00:30:24 2007 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710011549j4ed53370t5aedfde4c45697d6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710011549j4ed53370t5aedfde4c45697d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <985146.85809.qm@web61316.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ian, Besides plugdev, I even tried to add the user to adm, admin,... groups. Here is the output from id id uid=10000(lewis) gid=10000(hrpb) groups=4(adm),20(dialout),24(cdrom),25(floppy),29(audio),30(dip),44(video),46(plugdev),104(scanner),112(netdev),113(lpadmin),115(powerdev),117(admin),10000(hrpb),10001 That should enable it to do pretty much anything to mount a memory key. But still it does not work. Same with the audio. Id's starting 10000 are id's mapped for samba domain users. On the other hand, cd mounting, sudo and all gui sys admin tasks work fine. Cheers, EK --- Ian Petersen wrote: > I run a Gentoo system, which is therefore likely to be > non-standard. > In my case, though, removable media are automatically mounted if > the > current session is owned by a user in the plugdev group. I think > this > is a feature of recent Gnomes. > > Ian > > -- > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 00:58:04 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:58:04 -0400 Subject: [SOLVED] Problems with sound In-Reply-To: <20071001132218.GG16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20070921180124.GA8072@waltdnes.org> <20070930161809.GA13795@waltdnes.org> <20071001132218.GG16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071002005804.GB5361@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 09:22:18AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 12:18:09PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > > After the umpteenth repetition of kernel-rebuild/reboot/alsaconf, alsa > > has mysteriously started working again (mpg123, mplayer, audacious, etc). > > The only thing that I did differently was to... > > > > - remove kernel-based alsa support entirely (not even built as a module) > > in favour of alsa-driver and rebooted. > > Makes it sound like your userspace alsa and the kernel stuff wasn't the > same version. I did check that at your suggestion. After the first try, I had alsa-utils-1.0.14 installed and "cat /proc/asound/version" returned the same version number. > No gcc does what it is told. Make tries to be efficient. Does "make mrproper" zap the .config file? I realize it would force a full rebuild rather than an incremental build, but there may be a few situations where you need exactly that. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 01:04:33 2007 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu Solved In-Reply-To: <985146.85809.qm-ddJm7Vz9uCWA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <985146.85809.qm@web61316.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <643815.99207.qm@web61312.mail.yahoo.com> Rebooting the machine seem to get it working. For some reason I got to kill the winbind process that starts at boot time and restart it. Thanks, EK --- E K wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Besides plugdev, I even tried to add the user to adm, admin,... > groups. > > Here is the output from id > > id > uid=10000(lewis) gid=10000(hrpb) > groups=4(adm),20(dialout),24(cdrom),25(floppy),29(audio),30(dip),44(video),46(plugdev),104(scanner),112(netdev),113(lpadmin),115(powerdev),117(admin),10000(hrpb),10001 > > That should enable it to do pretty much anything to mount a memory > key. But still it does not work. Same with the audio. Id's starting > 10000 are id's mapped for samba domain users. > > On the other hand, cd mounting, sudo and all gui sys admin tasks > work > fine. > > Cheers, > EK > > --- Ian Petersen wrote: > > > I run a Gentoo system, which is therefore likely to be > > non-standard. > > In my case, though, removable media are automatically mounted if > > the > > current session is owned by a user in the plugdev group. I think > > this > > is a feature of recent Gnomes. > > > > Ian > > > > -- > > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start today at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 23:48:14 2007 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:48:14 -0400 Subject: Mounting USB key in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <588844.75177.qm-kR5ePFgau4uA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <588844.75177.qm@web61324.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710011948.14401.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> On Monday 01 October 2007 18:20:52 E K wrote: > What do I need to do to enable domain authenticated users to be able > to mount and use USB memory key in Ubuntu 7.04? I don't know for sure since I've never set it up manually but I'm pretty sure that it has something to do with groups. Here are the standard groups which my user id belongs to: * 4(adm) * 20(dialout) * 24(cdrom) * 25(floppy) * 29(audio) * 30(dip) * 44(video) * 46(plugdev) * 104(lpadmin) * 105(scanner) * 106(admin) My bet would be on the plugdev group, probably you'd also want floppy and cdrom. -- Fraser Campbell Georgetown, Ontario, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 02:37:49 2007 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:37:49 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: <20071001140244.GJ16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46FD4671.2040905@rogers.com> <1f13df280710010633r70e6899eh377cd3a91d54d17@mail.gmail.com> <20071001140244.GJ16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <92ee967a0710011937v3fd3251cj32bc61288d93f6f4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/1/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 09:33:17AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > I heard (or read, I don't even remember anymore) that Canadian/U.S. > > price differences are likely to persist for months, even if the loonie > > stays equal to the U.S. dollar. Vendors in Canada don't want their > > prices to fluctuate with the dollar because that would probably upset > > people even more than a price that's simply higher. So the vendors > > favour themselves by keeping the price high. Think about how this > > would look with big ticket items: "But ... I was on the lot yesterday, > > and the Corvette was $77,000!" "Well sir, the Canadian dollar went up > > by half a point last night, so now it's $83,000. You could always > > come back tomorrow ..." > > If the car comes from the US and the canadian dollar went up, the price > of the car should be lower and the customer should be happy with the new > lower price. > > Of course people with inventory already paid for the stuff, and don't > want to lower the price for stuff they already bought since that cuts > into profits quite badly. According to Wikipedia, the Buick LaCross/Allure is manufactured in Oshawa. Also by Wikipedia, it's the same car. Popping on to the websites for Canada and the U.S. and comparing base models (The "CX": base model for both cars) Buick Allure: $27,745 Buick LaCrosse: $23,995 Guess which one is the Canadian price? -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 02:53:30 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:53:30 -0400 Subject: Asus Eee (low cost notebook) pre-oder offer sighted In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710011937v3fd3251cj32bc61288d93f6f4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <46FD4671.2040905@rogers.com> <1f13df280710010633r70e6899eh377cd3a91d54d17@mail.gmail.com> <20071001140244.GJ16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0710011937v3fd3251cj32bc61288d93f6f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4701B2AA.2080209@telly.org> In doing a little book shopping yesterday I found that in some cases it is may now cheaper to buy your books at Amazon.com and have them shipped across the border, than to buy them from Amazon.ca. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 10:56:42 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:56:42 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <4700F2D4.4060709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first programming gig? as I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years experience. Any suggestions! > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:15:00 -0400 > From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > Henry de Valence wrote: > > Hi. I'm 15, and I started using Linux last February, and haven't looked back. > > I started with Ubuntu, but then I switched to Kubuntu. Right now I'm running > > Gutsy Gibbon, because Fiesty doesn't support my video card. Anyways, I know a > > bit about Java and C++ (I have the basic stuff about datatypes, control > > structures, functions and recursion, etc, and some OOP stuff.) What I know I > > learned partly by myself and partly in a summer course I took (the Grade 11 > > CS course, but according to my teacher we went beyond what we were supposed > > to). > > > > Anyways, I'm looking for a good, comprehensive guide to learning about > > programming GUI applications for KDE using QT, and I figured this would be a > > good place to ask. Ideally, I'd like something that I can do a bit at a time, > > because I have homework and other stuff. The other thing is that I'd like to > > learn programming for KDE 4 applications, but right now I'm running 7.10, > > which uses KDE 3.5. I thought this would be a good place to ask for > > suggestions. > > > > Harry de Valence > > I can't make much of suggestion, being a perl-type myself. :) > > I did want to say "Welcome to the industry!" though. I am also entirely > self-taught, and owe a *huge* debt to TLUG and other great mailing > lists. Check the archives to see how often I ask questions, and the > quality (and patience) of the replies! > > I have three general suggestions though; > > a) Whatever language you settle on (Python, etc), find a dedicated > mailing list and join it. For example, perl being my drug of choice, > Toronto Perl Mongers was the list for me. TLUG rocks, but sometimes you > find a wierd quirk that you need to ask a dedicated community about. > > b) Write clean code. Period, full stop. It doesn't really matter what > style you adopt, but stick to it and be consistent. It's frightening how > quickly a great program can go to hell because of sloppy code > formatting. My last job was working on a 9yo program that had never been > properly formatted. I would lose upwards of an hour whenever I started > for on a new file just cleaning up the code so I could follow the logic. > > c) Don't be a show off and write self-documenting code. As you learn, > you will be tempted to use more and more complex code that incorporates > new tricks you have learned... Don't fall into this trap! *Always* use > the simplest, most obvious steps, tools and commands to accomplish a > task. There is a true beauty in simplicity! > > The senior programmer at my last job showed me a short article on the > progression of a programmer by showing a simple "Hello, World!" script. > I wish I could find it again, but it went something like this: > > - Beginner: > #!/usr/bin/perl > print "Hello, World!\n"; > > - Intermediate: > #!/usr/bin/perl > my @words; > my $foo="Hello"; > my $bar="World"; > push @words, $foo; > push @words, $bar; > my $string; > for (0.. at words) > { > if ( $_ == 1 ) > { > $string.=", "; > $string.=$words[$_]; > } > else > { > $string.=$words[$_]; > } > } > $string.="!\n"; > print $string; > > - Expert; > #!/usr/bin/perl > print "Hello, World!\n" > > > Maybe someone here can find the original (much better written) > example of what I am trying to get at, but hopefully you see what I mean. :P > > My $0.02! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 14:24:31 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:24:31 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071001130008.GD16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4702549F.4050009@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 09:29:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I'm trying to get on the Internet in the W98SE guest. It's not >> recognizing the PCI controller. WHich is, I guess why it's not finding >> the correct NIC, which means I can't get onto the Internet to try >> Starcraft n Battle.Net, which is the whole point of all of this. I don't >> know why the guest won't just use the perfectly- working NIC in the >> linux host. >> >> I used to have a Hardware Browser in fedora 7. It's gone. I remember >> when I did the clean install I had too many panels and panel sub-menus. >> I found a way to consolidate them but I guess, in retrospect, I /did/ >> lose a couple of things. One of them was the Hardware Browser. I'm >> hoping to go in there, find the PCI controller, then tell W98SE guest >> that that is the controller (and grab the driver from the Internet if >> neccesary). >> > > Did you configure vmware to use bridged networking, or NAT or host only? > NAT as the host already has a working Internet and LAN connection. > Host only won't work for this. bridged is great if you have a router on > the network that could give you an ip by dhcp. NAT is good if you use > the host as the internet gateway and want vmware hidden behind it. > > As for win98, make sure it has the pcnet32 ethernet driver installed. What company makes that? You know when you go into Network Properties to Add Adaptor you specify the company (e.g. Intel) then the adaptor (e.g Intel 21040). > I > would think it came with it, but I am not sure. If not you should be > able to install the vmware utilities insude win98 (it should be nagging > you about it if you haven't already) which probably include the network > drivers. > You mean vmware tools? Yeah, I installed that but I wasn't getting on the Internet so I figured the NIC driver was wrong... Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 14:45:33 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:45:33 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071001130008.GD16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4702598D.2070504@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Did you configure vmware to use bridged networking, or NAT or host only? > Host only won't work for this. bridged is great if you have a router on > the network that could give you an ip by dhcp. NAT is good if you use > the host as the internet gateway and want vmware hidden behind it. > > As for win98, make sure it has the pcnet32 ethernet driver installed. It was another driver that vmware tools orginally detected/installed. I didn't write down its name (I should have). I assumed that my failure to connect to the Internet was due to the wrong NIC driver so I started messing around with that. I'll go about this more slowly now. I just uninstalled/reinstalled vmware tools. It did not detect the NIC at all. If I recall correctly its notthe NIC driver I have to get right firsat - it's the PCI controller driver I need , then it sees everything else accurately... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 14:59:08 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:59:08 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/07, Kevin Morris wrote: > > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first programming gig? as > I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years experience. Any suggestions! Um, get experience? :) But seriously .. if you're passionate about something, just start doing whatever it is as a hobby, and then start showing your stuff around, or talking it up. This works if you're keen on pretty well anything. Do that enough, tell people you're looking for work in the field, and pretty soon you'll have work. The reasons this strategy might fail would be if you're not really that passionate about what you do; you don't work hard enough at your craft; you don't tell enough people that you're looking for work; or you're telling the wrong people. The most powerful kind of advertising is word-of-mouth. So come up with a 30 second pitch for the kind of work you do, and tell everyone you know, and everyone you come across. If enough people know what you do, opportunities should present themselves to you. Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:06:02 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:06:02 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: thanks will make that part of my strategy...I do a lot of work on my own, guess I need to market skills.. > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:59:08 -0400 > From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > On 10/2/07, Kevin Morris wrote: > > > > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first programming gig? as > > I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years experience. Any suggestions! > > Um, get experience? :) > > But seriously .. if you're passionate about something, just start > doing whatever it is as a hobby, and then start showing your stuff > around, or talking it up. This works if you're keen on pretty well > anything. > > Do that enough, tell people you're looking for work in the field, and > pretty soon you'll have work. > > The reasons this strategy might fail would be if you're not really > that passionate about what you do; you don't work hard enough at your > craft; you don't tell enough people that you're looking for work; or > you're telling the wrong people. > > The most powerful kind of advertising is word-of-mouth. > > So come up with a 30 second pitch for the kind of work you do, and > tell everyone you know, and everyone you come across. If enough people > know what you do, opportunities should present themselves to you. > > Alex > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:02:53 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:02:53 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071001130008.GD16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47025D9D.90802@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > As for win98, make sure it has the pcnet32 ethernet driver installed. I did a web search on pcnet32 - it appears it is an AMD card. I went back to Network Properties and chose Add > Adaptor > AMD > AMD PCNET Family Adaptor [PCI-ISA]. It advised me that I chose a PnP adaptor and now I had to shut down, install the card and power on. I shut down the vm and powered it on again and I wasn't given any mesages - Network Neighbourhood was not even on the desktop and when I went into Network (in Control Panel) there was nothing in there (no adaptor - nothing). Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:06:00 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:06:00 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071001130008.GD16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 09:29:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I'm trying to get on the Internet in the W98SE guest. It's not >> recognizing the PCI controller. WHich is, I guess why it's not finding >> the correct NIC, which means I can't get onto the Internet to try >> Starcraft n Battle.Net, which is the whole point of all of this. I don't >> know why the guest won't just use the perfectly- working NIC in the >> linux host. >> >> I used to have a Hardware Browser in fedora 7. It's gone. I remember >> when I did the clean install I had too many panels and panel sub-menus. >> I found a way to consolidate them but I guess, in retrospect, I /did/ >> lose a couple of things. One of them was the Hardware Browser. I'm >> hoping to go in there, find the PCI controller, then tell W98SE guest >> that that is the controller (and grab the driver from the Internet if >> neccesary). >> > > Did you configure vmware to use bridged networking, or NAT or host only? > Host only won't work for this. bridged is great if you have a router on > the network that could give you an ip by dhcp. NAT is good if you use > the host as the internet gateway and want vmware hidden behind it. > > As for win98, make sure it has the pcnet32 ethernet driver installed. I > would think it came with it, but I am not sure. If not you should be > able to install the vmware utilities insude win98 (it should be nagging > you about it if you haven't already) which probably include the network > drivers. > For 'Use virtual device' should I choose 'vmxnet' or 'vlance'? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:19:06 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:19:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Samsung Pixel Art Dance Message-ID: <4702613f.121f400a.4332.ffffe058@mx.google.com> I've heard of pixel art, but as a dance routine? This is crazy, but then so are the Koreans. Hit the link below only if you're looking to procrastinate for a solid :08! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X76ZIGQgBWg -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:42:40 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:42:40 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <470266F0.8070609@alteeve.com> Kevin Morris wrote: > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first programming gig? as I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years experience. Any suggestions! The part about being passionate about your art, and like artists, building your portfolio can not be emphasized enough. For me, I was in a lucky position. I got started in computers as a sysadmin and on-site support tech. For many years, once a computer, server or network was working, I had no idea what to do after. About four years ago, on my job as a sysadmin/support tech, my boss allowed me to try my hand at writing a backup program in my downtime (knowing I was a beginner). So over the next few years I busted my arse (read; worked at home on the project off hours a *lot*) trying to get the program working. It was perfect for me as it tied into my existing knowledge of servers, so I had something to go by. So then; what skills do you have? What is your job? If it's a job that has downtime, pick a project and work on it whenever you have free time. I've always though that people who want to be (self-taught) programmers would be perfect for jobs like being a security guard where there is a *lot* of downtime. Other than that, program in your free time. Honestly think of it like an art; and like an art you need a portfolio. Start with a "colour in the lines" type program and build on it. Trust me; my original backup program embarrasses the heck out of me... Certainly terrible to show off as a portfolio piece, but it is where I started. :) I don't know if this will help you at all, but it's the advice I can give. :) Be persistent and don't let yourself be discouraged easily. Best of luck! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 15:48:32 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:48:32 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1191340112.19044.294.camel@stan64.site> There are two things you can do immediately, volunteer in a shop, I have "hired" on about 9 volunteers over the years and passed employment onto 8 out of nine of them. Typical volunteer periods of 4 months, i.e. get teeth into a decent sized project, and to be able to prove your worth. You can also bid on a job board, i.e. "get a freelancer . com " or the others, if you are willing to work for escrowed funds released on clients satisfaction, then you simply have to low bid , and you can be working for $$$$ tomorrow. You can bid and take on small jobs, pretty much in any programing facet. you will eventually grow out of board bid freelancing as its slightly above slave labour on the evolution chain, but it will serve the purpose, you will get work, and you'll get it as quick as you need, at a cost of only get remunerated at 10$/hr? 15$/hr 6$/hr .... it varies. -tl On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 11:06 -0400, Kevin Morris wrote: > thanks will make that part of my strategy...I do a lot of work on my > own, guess I need to market skills.. > > > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:59:08 -0400 > > From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > > > On 10/2/07, Kevin Morris wrote: > > > > > > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first > programming gig? as > > > I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years > experience. Any suggestions! > > > > Um, get experience? :) > > > > But seriously .. if you're passionate about something, just start > > doing whatever it is as a hobby, and then start showing your stuff > > around, or talking it up. This works if you're keen on pretty well > > anything. > > > > Do that enough, tell people you're looking for work in the field, > and > > pretty soon you'll have work. > > > > The reasons this strategy might fail would be if you're not really > > that passionate about what you do; you don't work hard enough at > your > > craft; you don't tell enough people that you're looking for work; or > > you're telling the wrong people. > > > > The most powerful kind of advertising is word-of-mouth. > > > > So come up with a 30 second pitch for the kind of work you do, and > > tell everyone you know, and everyone you come across. If enough > people > > know what you do, opportunities should present themselves to you. > > > > Alex > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 17:20:17 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:20:17 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4702549F.4050009-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702549F.4050009@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002172017.GA20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 10:24:31AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > What company makes that? You know when you go into Network Properties to > Add Adaptor you specify the company (e.g. Intel) then the adaptor (e.g > Intel 21040). Well every version of vmware I ever used emulated the AMD pcnet32. > You mean vmware tools? Yeah, I installed that but I wasn't getting on > the Internet so I figured the NIC driver was wrong... Or maybe the interface is just not told to use dhcp, or you don't have a dhcp server configured on the machine to hand out IPs to vmware clients. I have never personally used the NAT setting in vmware, so I am not sure if it takes care of the DHCP server setup for you. You should be able to see if windows has a network card listed in the network control panel or whatever it was called on that version. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 17:21:13 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:21:13 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47025D9D.90802-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025D9D.90802@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002172113.GB20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:02:53AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I did a web search on pcnet32 - it appears it is an AMD card. I went > back to Network Properties and chose Add > Adaptor > AMD > AMD PCNET > Family Adaptor [PCI-ISA]. It advised me that I chose a PnP adaptor and > now I had to shut down, install the card and power on. I shut down the > vm and powered it on again and I wasn't given any mesages - Network > Neighbourhood was not even on the desktop and when I went into Network > (in Control Panel) there was nothing in there (no adaptor - nothing). Your virtual machine configuration does include a network adapter right? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 17:22:12 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:22:12 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47025E58.90303-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:06:00AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > For 'Use virtual device' should I choose 'vmxnet' or 'vlance'? Well vmxnet is a driver that knows about the virtualization and is hence more efficient. The lance is another name for the AMD pcnet32. If nothing else try both ways. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 17:26:39 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:26:39 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <470266F0.8070609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> <470266F0.8070609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: thanks for sharing your experience. I work in QA as a tester, we test fixes, upgrades or new software. However, it does not get technical as we only do UAT. I much rather be coding than testing a process, so I am bored out of my mind and not challenged. But it pays my bills and take care of my family. I graduated with a degree in Comp Sci last Aug. Before going back to school as a mature student, I worked for a Bank supporting installations of ATM machines, daily maintenance of the these machines etc... At work, as well as at home, I do some skunk projects in Java, PHP and C. This has helped me build skills beyond the basic level but I have not participated in a full SDLC in a 'real project' nor do I have a piece of software that has been implemented for a client. I will take the good suggestions from people like yourself and build a portfolio and focus on marketing my skill set so that I can move into a job that I will find rewarding. Cheers Kev > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:42:40 -0400 > From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > Kevin Morris wrote: > > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first programming gig? as I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years experience. Any suggestions! > > The part about being passionate about your art, and like artists, > building your portfolio can not be emphasized enough. > > For me, I was in a lucky position. I got started in computers as a > sysadmin and on-site support tech. For many years, once a computer, > server or network was working, I had no idea what to do after. > > About four years ago, on my job as a sysadmin/support tech, my boss > allowed me to try my hand at writing a backup program in my downtime > (knowing I was a beginner). So over the next few years I busted my arse > (read; worked at home on the project off hours a *lot*) trying to get > the program working. It was perfect for me as it tied into my existing > knowledge of servers, so I had something to go by. > > So then; what skills do you have? What is your job? If it's a job that > has downtime, pick a project and work on it whenever you have free time. > I've always though that people who want to be (self-taught) programmers > would be perfect for jobs like being a security guard where there is a > *lot* of downtime. > > Other than that, program in your free time. Honestly think of it like an > art; and like an art you need a portfolio. Start with a "colour in the > lines" type program and build on it. > > Trust me; my original backup program embarrasses the heck out of me... > Certainly terrible to show off as a portfolio piece, but it is where I > started. :) > > I don't know if this will help you at all, but it's the advice I can > give. :) > > Be persistent and don't let yourself be discouraged easily. > > Best of luck! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 17:30:39 2007 From: kevjmorris-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Kevin Morris) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:30:39 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: <1191340112.19044.294.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> <1191340112.19044.294.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: I will look into GetAFreelancer.com...also if there is a volunteer position available in your shop, I will be happy to take on the challenge...thanks for the suggestions > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:48:32 -0400 > > There are two things you can do immediately, > volunteer in a shop, > I have "hired" on about 9 volunteers over the years > and passed employment onto 8 out of nine of them. > Typical volunteer periods of 4 months, i.e. > get teeth into a decent sized project, and to > be able to prove your worth. > > You can also bid on a job board, i.e. > "get a freelancer . com " or the others, > if you are willing to work for escrowed funds > released on clients satisfaction, > then you simply have to low bid , > and you can be working for $$$$ tomorrow. > You can bid and take on small jobs, > pretty much in any programing facet. > you will eventually grow out > of board bid freelancing as > its slightly above slave labour on the evolution chain, > but it will serve the purpose, you will get work, > and you'll get it as quick as you need, at a cost > of only get remunerated at 10$/hr? 15$/hr 6$/hr .... it varies. > > -tl > > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 11:06 -0400, Kevin Morris wrote: > > thanks will make that part of my strategy...I do a lot of work on my > > own, guess I need to market skills.. > > > > > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:59:08 -0400 > > > From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > > > > > > On 10/2/07, Kevin Morris wrote: > > > > > > > > You are a self-taught programmer, so how did you get your first > > programming gig? as > > > > I am finding that most jobs require a minimum of 1-2 years > > experience. Any suggestions! > > > > > > Um, get experience? :) > > > > > > But seriously .. if you're passionate about something, just start > > > doing whatever it is as a hobby, and then start showing your stuff > > > around, or talking it up. This works if you're keen on pretty well > > > anything. > > > > > > Do that enough, tell people you're looking for work in the field, > > and > > > pretty soon you'll have work. > > > > > > The reasons this strategy might fail would be if you're not really > > > that passionate about what you do; you don't work hard enough at > > your > > > craft; you don't tell enough people that you're looking for work; or > > > you're telling the wrong people. > > > > > > The most powerful kind of advertising is word-of-mouth. > > > > > > So come up with a 30 second pitch for the kind of work you do, and > > > tell everyone you know, and everyone you come across. If enough > > people > > > know what you do, opportunities should present themselves to you. > > > > > > Alex > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:01:39 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:01:39 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071002172113.GB20811-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025D9D.90802@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172113.GB20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47028783.8010408@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:02:53AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I did a web search on pcnet32 - it appears it is an AMD card. I went >> back to Network Properties and chose Add > Adaptor > AMD > AMD PCNET >> Family Adaptor [PCI-ISA]. It advised me that I chose a PnP adaptor and >> now I had to shut down, install the card and power on. I shut down the >> vm and powered it on again and I wasn't given any mesages - Network >> Neighbourhood was not even on the desktop and when I went into Network >> (in Control Panel) there was nothing in there (no adaptor - nothing). >> > > Your virtual machine configuration does include a network adapter right? > Yes: 'Network Adapter NAT' > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:16:31 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:16:31 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: <200709292005.07693.hdevalence@gmail.com> <4700F2D4.4060709@alteeve.com> <470266F0.8070609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <47028AFF.4000000@alteeve.com> Kevin Morris wrote: > thanks for sharing your experience. I work in QA as a tester, we test fixes, upgrades or new software. However, it does not get technical as we only do UAT. I much rather be coding than testing a process, so I am bored out of my mind and not challenged. But it pays my bills and take care of my family. > > I graduated with a degree in Comp Sci last Aug. Before going back to school as a mature student, I worked for a Bank supporting installations of ATM machines, daily maintenance of the these machines etc... > > At work, as well as at home, I do some skunk projects in Java, PHP and C. This has helped me build skills beyond the basic level but I have not participated in a full SDLC in a 'real project' nor do I have a piece of software that has been implemented for a client. > > I will take the good suggestions from people like yourself and build a portfolio and focus on marketing my skill set so that I can move into a job that I will find rewarding. > > Cheers > Kev There was a speech given recently by a dieing professor. I am sure someone here has the link. One part of the speech he spoke about working for Disney, and how it had been a life dream. He spoke of the walls he faced in reaching his goal, and how he came to see those walls as a challenge. As he said, "walls" are to keep out people who don't want something badly enough". If you want to do something badly enough; be it program or finger paint of sidewalks, you will find a way to do it. Best of luck! Madi PS - Ever thought of looking for an existing open-source project and contributing to it? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:15:16 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:15:16 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071002172212.GC20811-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:06:00AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> For 'Use virtual device' should I choose 'vmxnet' or 'vlance'? >> > > Well vmxnet is a driver that knows about the virtualization and is hence > more efficient. The lance is another name for the AMD pcnet32. > > If nothing else try both ways. > I have. Consistent with what you say the vlance instructed Windows to 'find' the AMD pcnet32 Maybe I should phone my isp and pretend I'm just configuring a regular Windows box to connect to the Internet. It's been a while. Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:22:05 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:22:05 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071001130125.GE16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <20070925122153.22b9f732@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <46F95A63.1030204@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251555p43a2af0tbbe7b2fe5d441cf7@mail.gmail.com> <46F9A82D.8040900@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251919m771f8cb7w671e6db9dcf33265@mail.gmail.com> <46FAB048.4040308@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709261557p5e5912f4o7f93167a92b105e9@mail.gmail.com> <46FC598A.9020402@chrisaitken.net> <46FD52C6.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130125.GE16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47028C4D.4070705@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 03:15:18PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I'm inching closer. I tried Starcraft (in Battle.Net) again (after >> installing that any-any update last night). This time I got the entire >> Battle.Net background right away with what looked liked two empty status >> bars. I eventually had to do a manual log off. I got a different message >> this time: >> >> "There is a new version of the software available - Battle.Net requires >> that you use the new version". >> >> I'm skeptical though - when my son plays Starcraft online he is not told >> he needs the new version of the software. >> > > He probably already updated a long long time ago. > You may be right. He was talking about downloading bits of stuff - he probably upgrade without even knowing it... Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:35:51 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:35:51 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues Message-ID: <20071002143551.5d3b7d8e@node1.freeyourmachine.org> I'm trying load tracks onto my ancient iPod shuffle (512MB) using gtkpod, but for some reason the way gtkpod is doing this I cannot access all of the songs. From what I can see, gtkpod is taking the 72 songs I am trying to load and dividing them up into groups of 24. The problem with this is I can only listen to the first 24 songs, and then it just repeats. The other 48 are apparently inaccessible. Is there some way to tell gtkpod _not_ to do this? It's highly annoying, and the device is essentially useless to me this way. Thanks! -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Are you all right?" -Leela "Ah, it's nothing a a law suit won't cure." -Bender -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 18:44:02 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:44:02 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47028AB4.2070708-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47029172.1060706@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:06:00AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: >> >>> For 'Use virtual device' should I choose 'vmxnet' or 'vlance'? >>> >> >> Well vmxnet is a driver that knows about the virtualization and is hence >> more efficient. The lance is another name for the AMD pcnet32. >> >> If nothing else try both ways. >> > I have. Consistent with what you say the vlance instructed Windows to > 'find' the > > AMD pcnet32 > > Maybe I should phone my isp and pretend I'm just configuring a regular > Windows box to connect to the Internet. It's been a while. I'm waiting for a call back from my isp. Of course I will tell them I'm trying to connect a virtual machine to the host's Internet connection. The first tech I got told me if the hardware's working IE should just simply get on the net. I said I may need DNS server name and other stuff I wouldn't normally need. We'll see what they say when they call back. It seemed like there was more to see 'under the hood' when I used dial-up. > > Chris >> -- >> Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:03:03 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:03:03 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47029172.1060706-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <47029172.1060706@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <470295E7.5070404@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm waiting for a call back from my isp. Of course I will tell them > I'm trying to connect a virtual machine to the host's Internet > connection. The first tech I got told me if the hardware's working IE > should just simply get on the net. I said I may need DNS server name > and other stuff I wouldn't normally need. We'll see what they say when > they call back. It seemed like there was more to see 'under the hood' > when I used dial-up. I just spoke with tech support. He guesses that I might have to configure DHCP on the linux box to give an ip address to the vm. Nothing he can do at his end. >> >> Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:06:53 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:06:53 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470295E7.5070404-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <47029172.1060706@chrisaitken.net> <470295E7.5070404@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <470296CD.3050806@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > >> I'm waiting for a call back from my isp. Of course I will tell them >> I'm trying to connect a virtual machine to the host's Internet >> connection. The first tech I got told me if the hardware's working IE >> should just simply get on the net. I said I may need DNS server name >> and other stuff I wouldn't normally need. We'll see what they say >> when they call back. It seemed like there was more to see 'under the >> hood' when I used dial-up. > I just spoke with tech support. He guesses that I might have to > configure DHCP on the linux box to give an ip address to the vm. > Nothing he can do at his end. Does the following look okay? [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD inet addr:192.168.0.103 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::250:8bff:fed8:76cd/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:64715 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:8643 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:21563766 (20.5 MiB) TX bytes:1398987 (1.3 MiB) eth0:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD inet addr:192.168.0.2 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 lo Link encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) TX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) vmnet1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:56:C0:00:01 inet addr:192.0.0.1 Bcast:192.255.255.255 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: fe80::250:56ff:fec0:1/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:3143 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:18:41 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:18:41 -0400 Subject: Learning to Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47029965.0d38400a.5c55.56cb@mx.google.com> ________________________________ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Morris Sent: Tuesday 02 October 2007 13:31 To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Learning to Program > I will look into GetAFreelancer.com...also if there is a volunteer > position available in your shop, I will be happy to take on the > challenge...thanks for the suggestions The best thing that happened to launch my career was a co-op position in high school. I worked with ClearNET (now Telus Mobility) every afternoon for a semester, and it turned into a summer job. That eventually turned into my own business, which paid for half of my undergrad tuition. One other suggestion: find a mentor. It's great to code on your own and see what you can accomplish, but having someone else look at your code is a real test, and it's the way things work "in the real world"*. Whether that happens at a company, on an OpenSource project, working with a teacher, or just coding with friends, getting feedback will bring your programming to the next level the same way a good coach will in any sport. * The number of times I've seen bad code is strongly correlated to the number of people that reviewed the code. Not that it guarantees success, but the "lone wolf coder" is a dying breed if not dead already. HPH! -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:31:38 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:31:38 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47028AB4.2070708-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 02:15:16PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have. Consistent with what you say the vlance instructed Windows to > 'find' the > > AMD pcnet32 > > Maybe I should phone my isp and pretend I'm just configuring a regular > Windows box to connect to the Internet. It's been a while. They probably don't remember win98, and besides you are connecting through NAT which makes it pretty much beyond what they should have to deal with. So do you have a dhcp server running on your host? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:42:27 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:42:27 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470296CD.3050806-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <47029172.1060706@chrisaitken.net> <470295E7.5070404@chrisaitken.net> <470296CD.3050806@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/2/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > Does the following look okay? > > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/ifconfig > eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD > inet addr:192.168.0.103 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 > inet6 addr: fe80::250:8bff:fed8:76cd/64 Scope:Link > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:64715 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:8643 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:21563766 (20.5 MiB) TX bytes:1398987 (1.3 MiB) > > eth0:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD > inet addr:192.168.0.2 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > > lo Link encap:Local Loopback > inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 > inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host > UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 > RX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 > RX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) TX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) > > vmnet1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:56:C0:00:01 > inet addr:192.0.0.1 Bcast:192.255.255.255 Mask:255.0.0.0 > inet6 addr: fe80::250:56ff:fec0:1/64 Scope:Link > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:3143 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) > -- Hi Chris, I may be wrong since I'm not super knowledgeable about networks, but the vmnet address doesn't appear to be right. It should be a private address if it's providing your virtual machine with a NAT interface to the outside world. I believe your VMNET address should be in the 192.168 range since that's a private address. Just make sure you pick a subnet different from the subnet of your main NIC. Here's what mine looks like. I have two VMNET interfaces, one Bridged and one HostOnly. Don't worry about that part. What's important is that if you want to NAT your VM, it should be contained in a private subnet different from the subnet of your main NIC. My real ethernet is on 192.168.1.*. My VM network interfaces are in 192.168.253.* and 192.168.254.*. eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:16:D3:26:40:CF inet addr:192.168.1.102 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::216:d3ff:fe26:40cf/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:30656 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:23835 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 RX bytes:39113874 (37.3 MiB) TX bytes:2968508 (2.8 MiB) Base address:0x2000 Memory:ee000000-ee020000 lo Link encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) vmnet1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:56:C0:00:01 inet addr:192.168.253.1 Bcast:192.168.253.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::250:56ff:fec0:1/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:26 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) vmnet8 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:56:C0:00:08 inet addr:192.168.254.1 Bcast:192.168.254.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::250:56ff:fec0:8/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:26 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:46:45 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:46:45 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47028AB4.2070708-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/2/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > AMD pcnet32 > > Maybe I should phone my isp and pretend I'm just configuring a regular > Windows box to connect to the Internet. It's been a while. Hi Chris, I just finished installing Windows98 inside my VMWare. After installing VMWare tools, the Ethernet auto-installed itself. The Ethernet driver used is the AMD PCNet32 PCI that comes on the original Windows98 CDROM. However, looking inside the "System devices" tree, I see that VMWare properly uses many of the PCI bridge drivers specific to my processor family (Intel). I suspect that you won't get your NIC to work until you install the proper PCI and system bus drivers. If you have an Intel-based machine, this should work out of the box. If you have an AMD machine, the lack of PCI support may be the true culprit preventing proper NIC install. -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 20:30:37 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:30:37 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071002193138.GD20811-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420709281226j78f4a58dtcd323ff72596443f@mail.gmail.com> <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > They probably don't remember win98, and besides you are connecting > through NAT which makes it pretty much beyond what they should have to > deal with. > > So do you have a dhcp server running on your host? > Yikes - no - how hard is that to configure? Will the cable modem even allow that? Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:22:40 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:22:40 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470296CD.3050806-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <47029172.1060706@chrisaitken.net> <470295E7.5070404@chrisaitken.net> <470296CD.3050806@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002212240.GE20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 03:06:53PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Does the following look okay? > > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/ifconfig > eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD > inet addr:192.168.0.103 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 > inet6 addr: fe80::250:8bff:fed8:76cd/64 Scope:Link > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:64715 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:8643 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:21563766 (20.5 MiB) TX bytes:1398987 (1.3 MiB) > > eth0:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:8B:D8:76:CD > inet addr:192.168.0.2 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > > lo Link encap:Local Loopback > inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 > inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host > UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 > RX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 > RX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) TX bytes:21087617 (20.1 MiB) > > vmnet1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:50:56:C0:00:01 > inet addr:192.0.0.1 Bcast:192.255.255.255 Mask:255.0.0.0 > inet6 addr: fe80::250:56ff:fec0:1/64 Scope:Link > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:3143 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 > RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) The configuration of the vmnet1 looks very wrong to me. It is a rather unusual subnet and covers your eth0 subnet as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:24:20 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:24:20 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4702AA6D.7080102-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 04:30:37PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Yikes - no - how hard is that to configure? Will the cable modem even > allow that? If it is configured to only server the vmnet interface, then your cable modem won't even know. Now do you have a router handling your cable modem? My guess is yes given you seem to use 192.168.x.x addresses on your machine. If so it would be much simpler to use bridged setup in vmware and just let the vmware guest connect to your router directly as if it was a seperate machine on the network. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:25:49 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:25:49 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: References: <46FD56E7.2070105@chrisaitken.net> <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071002212549.GG20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 03:46:45PM -0400, jing wrote: > I just finished installing Windows98 inside my VMWare. After > installing VMWare tools, the Ethernet auto-installed itself. The > Ethernet driver used is the AMD PCNet32 PCI that comes on the original > Windows98 CDROM. However, looking inside the "System devices" tree, I > see that VMWare properly uses many of the PCI bridge drivers specific > to my processor family (Intel). I suspect that you won't get your NIC > to work until you install the proper PCI and system bus drivers. If > you have an Intel-based machine, this should work out of the box. If > you have an AMD machine, the lack of PCI support may be the true > culprit preventing proper NIC install. vmware emulates an intel piix3 southbridge/ide controller and an amd pci lance (pcnet32) ethernet chip, as well as a bus logic scsi controller and a sound blaster audio card. They went for some very very generic common hardware to use as emulated hardware. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:23:03 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:23:03 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071002212420.GF20811-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4702B6B7.3010000@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 04:30:37PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Yikes - no - how hard is that to configure? Will the cable modem even >> allow that? >> > > If it is configured to only server the vmnet interface, then your cable > modem won't even know. > > Now do you have a router handling your cable modem? My guess is yes > given you seem to use 192.168.x.x addresses on your machine. Yes, it's a little (4 port) D-LINK Ethernet Broadband Router. So my wife and kids computers can get on the Internet (and print to my printer et al.). > If so it > would be much simpler to use bridged setup in vmware and just let the > vmware guest connect to your router directly as if it was a seperate > machine on the network. > I'll give it a try... Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:28:31 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:28:31 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071002212420.GF20811-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 04:30:37PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Yikes - no - how hard is that to configure? Will the cable modem even >> allow that? >> > > If it is configured to only server the vmnet interface, then your cable > modem won't even know. > > Now do you have a router handling your cable modem? My guess is yes > given you seem to use 192.168.x.x addresses on your machine. If so it > would be much simpler to use bridged setup in vmware and just let the > vmware guest connect to your router directly as if it was a seperate > machine on the network. > That did it. We have liftoff. vlance adapter, Bridged Network - up came google! Thanks everyone. Now to try Starcraft... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 21:47:18 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:47:18 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4702B7FF.5060907-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <200709281548.46797.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <46FDB0A5.7000408@chrisaitken.net> <46FDB763.8030009@chrisaitken.net> <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > That did it. We have liftoff. vlance adapter, Bridged Network - up > came google! > > Thanks everyone. Now to try Starcraft... Ooops, not so fast. During the W98SE install it didn't see my CD drive so I had vmware point to an image file to do the installation from. So, now my "CD drive" in the vm is really an image. How do I get vmware to see my (real) CD drive (so I can install Starcraft among other things)? > > Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 23:50:00 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 19:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Slashdot news item Message-ID: <1155.99.232.71.193.1191369000.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> James Burgett of the Alameda County Computer Resource Center calls himself a 'tattooed freak' and a recovering drug addict, but CNN is calling him a hero (video) for diverting tons of computers from landfills, installing Ubuntu Linux on them, and giving them out to schools, non-profits, and poor people. Burgett's filmed interview is currently leading a CNN contest among videos of 'ordinary people' whom CNN considers everyday heroes, narrowly edging out the video of a man who is saving gorillas from extinction. In his interview, Burgett points out that the people working for him are also recovering drug addicts or recovering mental illness patients." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 02:39:29 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400 Subject: Project demos at OLF Message-ID: <408ae1640710021939x2c1f3cb6y279fc8cdeedcfa0@mail.gmail.com> Want to demonstrate your F/LOSS project in front of an attentive audience? You are seeking: 1) an interested audience of F/LOSS Fans 2) a great environment to host your session We are seeking: 1) cool topics that are well-suited to a hands-on demo We have a demo room set up for Ontario Linux Fest. It will hold a dozen identical laptops with VMware server running on Fedora. You can bring your VMware client instance for complex set-ups or use the host Fedora for things that are likely installed already, to demonstrate your project. You'll be able to show off your project to a dozen (or more, if they share screens) interested viewers from the hundreds at Ontario Linux Fest, so even topics that are very narrow are well-suited. This is a great opportunity for your dot-org project, or lesser-known distro to get in front of potential users. Contact us now at lab-Q2zETkUEcRyw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org to reserve a time slot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 06:00:48 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 02:00:48 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <20071002143551.5d3b7d8e-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002143551.5d3b7d8e@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071003020048.74416328@node1.freeyourmachine.org> JoeHill wrote: > I'm trying load tracks onto my ancient iPod shuffle (512MB) using gtkpod, but > for some reason the way gtkpod is doing this I cannot access all of the songs. > > From what I can see, gtkpod is taking the 72 songs I am trying to load and > dividing them up into groups of 24. The problem with this is I can only listen > to the first 24 songs, and then it just repeats. The other 48 are apparently > inaccessible. > > Is there some way to tell gtkpod _not_ to do this? It's highly annoying, and > the device is essentially useless to me this way. Scratch that, not sure what the issue was, but it's gone away now. All of the songs played in sequence later on. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: I've only got two fantasies left: to be invisible in a chocolate factory, and to be romantically linked to a celebrity. Bender: I could pound your head 'til you think that's what happened. Fry: Okay. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 12:06:39 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:06:39 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4702BC66.6060205-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 05:47:18PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Ooops, not so fast. During the W98SE install it didn't see my CD drive > so I had vmware point to an image file to do the installation from. So, > now my "CD drive" in the vm is really an image. How do I get vmware to > see my (real) CD drive (so I can install Starcraft among other things)? Click the devices menu (I think that is what it is called) and select to edit the cdrom drive, then change it from being an image file to pointing at your real cdrom device (whichever that is on your system, usually either /dev/hda or hdc or scd0 or sr0). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 12:51:52 2007 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:51:52 +0300 Subject: cacti and VolGroup Message-ID: Hallo, I have a server that I want to use cacti to monitor the hard disk usage. The problem is, I can't seem to find any helpful information out there on how to graph disk space for a system that uses VolGroup. (see below) My question is, have someone here attempted this? Is it possible? Is there some documentation on how to do it out there that I could have missed? Any help would be highly appreciated. Regards William [root at washington ~]# df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/VolGroup_ID_32310-LogVol1 2.0G 238M 1.7G 13% / /dev/sda3 190M 14M 167M 8% /boot none 972M 0 972M 0% /dev/shm /dev/mapper/VolGroup_ID_32310-LogVol2 1008M 34M 924M 4% /tmp /dev/mapper/VolGroup_ID_32310-LogVol5 9.9G 3.3G 6.2G 35% /usr /dev/mapper/VolGroup_ID_32310-LogVol4 116G 685M 109G 1% /var /dev/mapper/VolGroup_ID_32310-LogVolHome 4.4G 552M 3.6G 14% /home -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 15:39:14 2007 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:39:14 -0400 Subject: Oreillys--Managing RAID on Linux Message-ID: Does anyone know where a copy of this exists ? (apparently out of stock) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 15:43:54 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:43:54 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <20071003020048.74416328-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003020048.74416328@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4703b88d.157f400a.337b.ffff9516@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of JoeHill > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 02:01 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: gtkpod issues > > JoeHill wrote: > > > I'm trying load tracks onto my ancient iPod shuffle (512MB) using > > gtkpod, but for some reason the way gtkpod is doing this I > cannot access all of the songs. > > > > From what I can see, gtkpod is taking the 72 songs I am > trying to load > > and dividing them up into groups of 24. The problem with > this is I can > > only listen to the first 24 songs, and then it just > repeats. The other > > 48 are apparently inaccessible. > > > > Is there some way to tell gtkpod _not_ to do this? It's highly > > annoying, and the device is essentially useless to me this way. > > Scratch that, not sure what the issue was, but it's gone away > now. All of the songs played in sequence later on. Yup, that pretty much sums up my experiences with gtkpod. Have you tried YamiPod? I'm using the Windows version currently, but it seems to be considerably better so far. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 17:33:42 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:33:42 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <4703b88d.157f400a.337b.ffff9516-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003020048.74416328@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4703b88d.157f400a.337b.ffff9516@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071003133342.3cc462ce@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Kareem Shehata wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > > Of JoeHill > > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 02:01 > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: gtkpod issues > > > > JoeHill wrote: > > > > > I'm trying load tracks onto my ancient iPod shuffle (512MB) using > > > gtkpod, but for some reason the way gtkpod is doing this I > > cannot access all of the songs. > > > > > > From what I can see, gtkpod is taking the 72 songs I am > > trying to load > > > and dividing them up into groups of 24. The problem with > > this is I can > > > only listen to the first 24 songs, and then it just > > repeats. The other > > > 48 are apparently inaccessible. > > > > > > Is there some way to tell gtkpod _not_ to do this? It's highly > > > annoying, and the device is essentially useless to me this way. > > > > Scratch that, not sure what the issue was, but it's gone away > > now. All of the songs played in sequence later on. > > Yup, that pretty much sums up my experiences with gtkpod. Have you tried > YamiPod? I'm using the Windows version currently, but it seems to be > considerably better so far. Doesn't appear to be any Ubuntu packages, but it does look pretty cool. I'll try building it later on. That's another annoyance, is that my main desktop has the USB ports kinda recessed into the front just enough that I can't plug my Shuffle in. I have to plug it into one of my other machines (the one running Ubuntu) then VNC in. Thanks for the tip :) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Wait a second, aren't you a member of the yacht club?" -Bender "My God, you're right. I'm a class 3 yacht." -Countess de la Roca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 17:38:57 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:38:57 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <4703b88d.157f400a.337b.ffff9516-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003020048.74416328@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4703b88d.157f400a.337b.ffff9516@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071003133857.586489f1@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Kareem Shehata wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > > Of JoeHill > > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 02:01 > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: gtkpod issues > > > > JoeHill wrote: > > > > > I'm trying load tracks onto my ancient iPod shuffle (512MB) using > > > gtkpod, but for some reason the way gtkpod is doing this I > > cannot access all of the songs. > > > > > > From what I can see, gtkpod is taking the 72 songs I am > > trying to load > > > and dividing them up into groups of 24. The problem with > > this is I can > > > only listen to the first 24 songs, and then it just > > repeats. The other > > > 48 are apparently inaccessible. > > > > > > Is there some way to tell gtkpod _not_ to do this? It's highly > > > annoying, and the device is essentially useless to me this way. > > > > Scratch that, not sure what the issue was, but it's gone away > > now. All of the songs played in sequence later on. > > Yup, that pretty much sums up my experiences with gtkpod. Have you tried > YamiPod? I'm using the Windows version currently, but it seems to be > considerably better so far. Heh, before you read my first reply and say 'hey id10t, read before you post', I just read the part about not needing any installation ;) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Amy: "Bender, your beer belly's so big your door won't even close. And that doesn't even make sense." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:17:38 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:17:38 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071003120639.GA4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130008.GD16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 05:47:18PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Ooops, not so fast. During the W98SE install it didn't see my CD drive >> so I had vmware point to an image file to do the installation from. So, >> now my "CD drive" in the vm is really an image. How do I get vmware to >> see my (real) CD drive (so I can install Starcraft among other things)? >> > > Click the devices menu (I think that is what it is called) and select to > edit the cdrom drive, then change it from being an image file to > pointing at your real cdrom device (whichever that is on your system, > usually either /dev/hda or hdc or scd0 or sr0). > Okay, I used Nautilus to look in the /dev directory. /dev/cdrom never worked so I tried the next one, /dev/cdrom-sr0 and it worked! My confusion was that the cdrom drive is not in fstab, and a new name is made up every time I put a cd in (I'm talking the linux host now) - /media/STARCRAFT for example. So, how does the cd get mounted if it's not in fstab? I installed Starcraft and the online version is working - I don't know how /well/ yet - my son can try it after school. I phoned the Timmins EB store and they actually had a copy - so I'm gonna learn this thing and play against my son. Thanks again, guys. Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:22:35 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:22:35 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47028C4D.4070705-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46F8526D.8040208@chrisaitken.net> <20070925122153.22b9f732@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <46F95A63.1030204@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251555p43a2af0tbbe7b2fe5d441cf7@mail.gmail.com> <46F9A82D.8040900@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709251919m771f8cb7w671e6db9dcf33265@mail.gmail.com> <46FAB048.4040308@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0709261557p5e5912f4o7f93167a92b105e9@mail.gmail.com> <46FC598A.9020402@chrisaitken.net> <46FD52C6.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <20071001130125.GE16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028C4D.4070705@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4703DDEB.70804@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 03:15:18PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: >> >>> I'm inching closer. I tried Starcraft (in Battle.Net) again (after >>> installing that any-any update last night). This time I got the >>> entire Battle.Net background right away with what looked liked two >>> empty status bars. I eventually had to do a manual log off. I got a >>> different message this time: >>> >>> "There is a new version of the software available - Battle.Net >>> requires that you use the new version". >>> >>> I'm skeptical though - when my son plays Starcraft online he is not >>> told he needs the new version of the software. >>> >> >> He probably already updated a long long time ago. >> > You may be right. He was talking about downloading bits of stuff - he > probably upgrade without even knowing it... Turns out you were right. THe 'bits of stuff' were, in fact, the version upgrade. I just did a successful upgrade (from Battle.Net) of Starcraft within the w98se vm. > > Chris >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:32:13 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:32:13 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software Message-ID: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> After reading through the August thread on backup solutions, I've decided to grab at least 1 external drive and start actually backing up my systems on a regular basis. What I'm less certain of, is what software to use. If it were just my Debian server, then I'd probably just stick with good old tar (although some kind of a front-end would be nice), but that's not all there is. I've also got an Ubuntu workstation and a Windows Tablet. This leads to a number of questions: 1) What can I use to grab all of that data in a coherent way? 2) Is it possible to just mount the drive to the server and have all of the end devices backup to it through the network? 3) Will it be possible to read the backup format in other tools and OS's? I'm thinking along the lines of either restoring well down the line (i.e. several years from the now) and the original software is long lost, or restoring a file from my tablet using my workstation (say because the HDD crashed, or simply because the machine is on loan). Thanks, -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:33:57 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:33:57 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <20071003133857.586489f1-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003133857.586489f1@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4703e067.0f38400a.221e.ffffb24b@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of JoeHill > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 13:39 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: gtkpod issues > > Heh, before you read my first reply and say 'hey id10t, read > before you post', I just read the part about not needing any > installation ;) That's one of my favorite features. I've got all three versions sitting on the iPod filesystem, so I can plug it in anywhere and use it. So far, so good. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:36:02 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:36:02 -0400 Subject: gtkpod issues In-Reply-To: <20071003133342.3cc462ce-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003133342.3cc462ce@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4703e0e3.0f1f400a.3827.ffffb21a@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of JoeHill > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 13:34 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: gtkpod issues > > Doesn't appear to be any Ubuntu packages, but it does look > pretty cool. I'll try building it later on. That's another > annoyance, is that my main desktop has the USB ports kinda > recessed into the front just enough that I can't plug my > Shuffle in. I have to plug it into one of my other machines > (the one running > Ubuntu) then VNC in. Hmm... A little USB extension like what some of the flash drives include should do the trick. I usually have one of those around somewhere, but then I keep just about every cable. Now to find somewhere for all of these boxes :) > Thanks for the tip :) Anytime! -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:36:48 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:36:48 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4703DCC2.7080704-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <7ac602420710031136t66c344efg52de5193daa05180@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > Okay, I used Nautilus to look in the /dev directory. /dev/cdrom never > worked so I tried the next one, /dev/cdrom-sr0 and it worked! My > confusion was that the cdrom drive is not in fstab, and a new name is > made up every time I put a cd in (I'm talking the linux host now) - > /media/STARCRAFT for example. So, how does the cd get mounted if it's > not in fstab? That's a feature of the recent desktop environments. It sounds to me like your system is automatically running pmount when you insert the disc. I think you'll find that the name (under /media) is consistent per-disc, but varies by disc. You could, theoretically, create scripts or links that refer to /media/STARCRAFT that always work when the Starcraft disc is in the drive but fail when it's not there. I don't know if that's considered a good idea in practice, though. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:46:48 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:46:48 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/07, Kareem Shehata wrote: > 1) What can I use to grab all of that data in a coherent way? I think you'll find everyone on the list with an opinion will have a different opinion on this matter. I'm using rdiff-backup, but considering switching to rsnapshot. I don't have a Windows machine to worry about, but I've heard that both can be made to work on Windows (possibly under Cygwin). You might want to look at AMANDA, because, as I understand, it's purpose-built for cross-platform, network backups. I also hear it's complicated, so it might be overkill for a network of three machines. > 2) Is it possible to just mount the drive to the server and have all of the > end devices backup to it through the network? Yeah, you should be able to share the backup repository via NFS or Samba and then have the clients dump stuff to it. You might want to try the other direction: have the backup server go out to the network devices and pull the data. A backup needs to be fairly secure so you can rely on its integrity. You might want to restrict access to it to the machine containing the physical media. I might be paranoid in that regard. > 3) Will it be possible to read the backup format in other tools and OS's? Systems like rdiff-backup and rsnapshot just use a bunch of files to store their backups. In the case of rdiff-backup, the incremental reverse-diffs are stored in a somewhat funky format, but it's all well described on the homepage, and, in the end, it's just a bunch of diffs in some files. My point is that, if you pick the right backup system, and the right filesystem, you should be able to read your backups indefinitely. You may need to upgrade the filesystem if, for example, you pick e2fs and find, say, five years from now that the kernel will no longer support it. In that case you should be able to just copy the backup repository from one filesystem to another using your favourite file-wrangling tools. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 18:58:02 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:58:02 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4703DCC2.7080704-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47025E58.90303@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071003185802.GB4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 02:17:38PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Okay, I used Nautilus to look in the /dev directory. /dev/cdrom never > worked so I tried the next one, /dev/cdrom-sr0 and it worked! My > confusion was that the cdrom drive is not in fstab, and a new name is > made up every time I put a cd in (I'm talking the linux host now) - > /media/STARCRAFT for example. So, how does the cd get mounted if it's > not in fstab? HAL. gnome-volume-manager, or something similar. > I installed Starcraft and the online version is working - I don't know > how /well/ yet - my son can try it after school. I phoned the Timmins EB > store and they actually had a copy - so I'm gonna learn this thing and > play against my son. > > Thanks again, guys. Have fun. Hopefully it works. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 19:01:28 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:01:28 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Kareem Shehata wrote: > After reading through the August thread on backup solutions, I've decided to > grab at least 1 external drive and start actually backing up my systems on a > regular basis. What I'm less certain of, is what software to use. If it > were just my Debian server, then I'd probably just stick with good old tar > (although some kind of a front-end would be nice), but that's not all there > is. I've also got an Ubuntu workstation and a Windows Tablet. This leads > to a number of questions: > > 1) What can I use to grab all of that data in a coherent way? > > 2) Is it possible to just mount the drive to the server and have all of the > end devices backup to it through the network? > > 3) Will it be possible to read the backup format in other tools and OS's? > I'm thinking along the lines of either restoring well down the line (i.e. > several years from the now) and the original software is long lost, or > restoring a file from my tablet using my workstation (say because the HDD > crashed, or simply because the machine is on loan). I'd actually tend to prefer cpio to tar, for this application. tar expects you to specify sets of directories/directories, and if you're doing anything particularly fancy in terms of modifying the set of files, in order to exclude certain undesired files, the sets of parameters get progressively more and more complex. In contrast, with cpio, the inputs tend to be simpler: if you have something that generates lists of desired files, then you can simply submit that to cpio, telling it what to grab. Thus: $ program_generating_list_of_files_to_be_backed_up | filter_to_modify_this | cpio -o | bzip2 > /var/backup/my-latest-backup.cpio.bz2 And in effect, that first program might be: #!/bin/sh for dir in /dev /proc /var/backups /var/log; do dexclusions="${dexclusions} -prune ${dir}" done findcommand="find / ${exclusions} -depth" `${findcommand}` That is rather more of a "Unix-y way" to manipulate sets of names of files than the "tar way," as you can then use filters to modify the list, if need be. Note that there is nothing to prevent you from doing arbitrarily complex things to the set of filenames; cpio doesn't really care, and the those "arbitrarily complex things" will not manifest in particularly visible ways on the archive that results. Doing sophisticated things, on the front end, does NOT forcibly make it more complex to extract data from the archive. This argues strongly for using standard or quasi-standard formats. There are four that seem worth considering: a) POSIX tar (!= GNU tar; GNU tar has a number of extensions) b) GNU tar c) cpio (which, I should note, is the format used internally by RPM) d) afio (a more advanced version of CPIO, generally command line compatible; likes to compress files; cpio can be used to recover afio archives, in a pinch...) To a degree, they seem in order of increasing preferability to me. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 19:32:21 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:32:21 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of Ian Petersen > Sent: Wednesday 03 October 2007 14:47 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cross-Platform Backup Software > > On 10/3/07, Kareem Shehata wrote: > > 1) What can I use to grab all of that data in a coherent way? > > I think you'll find everyone on the list with an opinion will > have a different opinion on this matter. I'm using > rdiff-backup, but considering switching to rsnapshot. I > don't have a Windows machine to worry about, but I've heard > that both can be made to work on Windows (possibly under > Cygwin). You might want to look at AMANDA, because, as I > understand, it's purpose-built for cross-platform, network > backups. I also hear it's complicated, so it might be > overkill for a network of three machines. I fully expect to be thrown a whole bunch of different answers to sift through, but that should be expect for just about any non-trivial problem. In this case, hearing what has and hasn't worked for different people would be very helpful, as I can then figure out what applies to this situation. For example: Bacula looks pretty neat, but I haven't heard of anyone actually using it. AMANDA would do the trick, save for the complexity and that it doesn't natively support Windows clients (it pulls everything through Samba). > > 2) Is it possible to just mount the drive to the server > and have all > > of the end devices backup to it through the network? > > Yeah, you should be able to share the backup repository via > NFS or Samba and then have the clients dump stuff to it. You > might want to try the other direction: have the backup server > go out to the network devices and pull the data. A backup > needs to be fairly secure so you can rely on its integrity. > You might want to restrict access to it to the machine > containing the physical media. I might be paranoid in that regard. This is exactly the type of problem that I'm thinking of. Since this is a "production" server, how do I prevent the backup from suffering the same fate as the data in the event of a disaster? > > 3) Will it be possible to read the backup format in other > tools and OS's? > > Systems like rdiff-backup and rsnapshot just use a bunch of > files to store their backups. In the case of rdiff-backup, > the incremental reverse-diffs are stored in a somewhat funky > format, but it's all well described on the homepage, and, in > the end, it's just a bunch of diffs in some files. My point > is that, if you pick the right backup system, and the right > filesystem, you should be able to read your backups > indefinitely. You may need to upgrade the filesystem if, for > example, you pick e2fs and find, say, five years from now > that the kernel will no longer support it. In that case you > should be able to just copy the backup repository from one > filesystem to another using your favourite file-wrangling tools. Yea, I'm not sure that I like the idea of individual file diffs. It just seems somewhat fragile, and that level of efficiency is really uncalled for in this application. Very good point about the filesystem. I'd like the drive and backup system as a whole to be readable on any system, which creates a few problems. With a 500GB drive, FAT32 is out of the question, and both NTFS and EXT2 limit the options in terms of what systems can read them. Is there a better solution, or just use EXT2 and worst-case use a Live CD to read it? Thanks again, -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 19:01:32 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:01:32 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071003190132.GC4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 02:32:13PM -0400, Kareem Shehata wrote: > After reading through the August thread on backup solutions, I've decided to > grab at least 1 external drive and start actually backing up my systems on a > regular basis. What I'm less certain of, is what software to use. If it > were just my Debian server, then I'd probably just stick with good old tar > (although some kind of a front-end would be nice), but that's not all there > is. I've also got an Ubuntu workstation and a Windows Tablet. This leads > to a number of questions: > > 1) What can I use to grab all of that data in a coherent way? > > 2) Is it possible to just mount the drive to the server and have all of the > end devices backup to it through the network? > > 3) Will it be possible to read the backup format in other tools and OS's? > I'm thinking along the lines of either restoring well down the line (i.e. > several years from the now) and the original software is long lost, or > restoring a file from my tablet using my workstation (say because the HDD > crashed, or simply because the machine is on loan). Well something like tar should be readable by lots of systems. Of course just copying the files works too (I like rsync for making backups) although then the file system on the backup device has to support the permissions of the host system or you will loose those (which sucks). Tar across NFS or samba or other network connection works fine. You can also tar across an ssh connection if you prefer, just as you can rsync over ssh. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 19:54:44 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:54:44 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: References: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071003195444.GD4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 03:01:28PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'd actually tend to prefer cpio to tar, for this application. > > tar expects you to specify sets of directories/directories, and if > you're doing anything particularly fancy in terms of modifying the set > of files, in order to exclude certain undesired files, the sets of > parameters get progressively more and more complex. > > In contrast, with cpio, the inputs tend to be simpler: if you have > something that generates lists of desired files, then you can simply > submit that to cpio, telling it what to grab. Thus: > > $ program_generating_list_of_files_to_be_backed_up | > filter_to_modify_this | cpio -o | bzip2 > > /var/backup/my-latest-backup.cpio.bz2 afio is actually nice in that it can gzip the files individually, while keeping the header for each file in the archive uncompressed, which allows much faster seeks and restores of individual files in an archive. Anything that uses gzip or bzip2 after creating the archive requires decompressing the whole thing to get at any file in the archive. it is really just a much better cpio. > Doing sophisticated things, on the front end, does NOT forcibly make > it more complex to extract data from the archive. > > This argues strongly for using standard or quasi-standard formats. > There are four that seem worth considering: > > a) POSIX tar (!= GNU tar; GNU tar has a number of extensions) > b) GNU tar > c) cpio (which, I should note, is the format used internally by RPM) > d) afio (a more advanced version of CPIO, generally command line > compatible; likes to compress files; cpio can be used to recover afio > archives, in a pinch...) > > To a degree, they seem in order of increasing preferability to me. There is also star for really advanced tar features like your file list control and such that you said made cpio better than tar. Of course it is written by that cdrecord guy, so that maybe a point against it. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 19:56:46 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:56:46 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8@mail.gmail.com> <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071003195646.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 03:32:21PM -0400, Kareem Shehata wrote: > Very good point about the filesystem. I'd like the drive and backup system > as a whole to be readable on any system, which creates a few problems. With > a 500GB drive, FAT32 is out of the question, and both NTFS and EXT2 limit > the options in terms of what systems can read them. Is there a better > solution, or just use EXT2 and worst-case use a Live CD to read it? What is wrong with FAT32 on a 500GB drive? I think it has a 4GB file size limit that can be annoying but other than that there is no reason it can't work. Sure you can't format it that way using windows but that is a stupid artificial limitation imposed by microsoft for no good reason. Windows has no issue using a larger than 32GB FAT32 if you somehow manage to make one (mkdosfs -F 32 does just fine). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 20:01:15 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:01:15 -0400 Subject: Oreillys--Managing RAID on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071003200115.GF4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 11:39:14AM -0400, Teddy Mills wrote: > > Does anyone know where a copy of this exists ? > (apparently out of stock) Given it is 5 years old by now, it probably is rather out of date by now. It doesn't mention LVM, it doesn't cover mdadm I imagine, so it probably really doesn't cover any of what you actually would want to know today. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 20:02:49 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:02:49 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4703DCC2.7080704-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: > Okay, I used Nautilus to look in the /dev directory. /dev/cdrom never > worked so I tried the next one, /dev/cdrom-sr0 and it worked! My > confusion was that the cdrom drive is not in fstab, and a new name is > made up every time I put a cd in (I'm talking the linux host now) - > /media/STARCRAFT for example. So, how does the cd get mounted if it's > not in fstab? Have you tried ripping the Starcraft CD as an ISO and mounting the ISO file so you don't need the disc anymore? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 20:07:11 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:07:11 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: References: <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 04:02:49PM -0400, jing wrote: > Have you tried ripping the Starcraft CD as an ISO and mounting the ISO > file so you don't need the disc anymore? Hmm, I imagine that would work fine. I don't recall it using any copy protection on the disc itself. I remember the box came with 3 different covers available. I believe my copy has the protos on it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 21:56:27 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:56:27 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: References: <46FEFBED.9080605@chrisaitken.net> <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4704100B.30100@chrisaitken.net> jing wrote: >> Okay, I used Nautilus to look in the /dev directory. /dev/cdrom never >> worked so I tried the next one, /dev/cdrom-sr0 and it worked! My >> confusion was that the cdrom drive is not in fstab, and a new name is >> made up every time I put a cd in (I'm talking the linux host now) - >> /media/STARCRAFT for example. So, how does the cd get mounted if it's >> not in fstab? >> > > Have you tried ripping the Starcraft CD as an ISO and mounting the ISO > file so you don't need the disc anymore? > Good idea. I'll give it a try. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 22:02:14 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:02:14 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071003200711.GG4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002172212.GC20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47028AB4.2070708@chrisaitken.net> <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 04:02:49PM -0400, jing wrote: > >> Have you tried ripping the Starcraft CD as an ISO and mounting the ISO >> file so you don't need the disc anymore? >> > > Hmm, I imagine that would work fine. I don't recall it using any copy > protection on the disc itself. > Yeah, I've already burnwed a copy of my son's (it's getting old) - it works fine. Now, to get full screen working in the vm: Unable to turn on direct graphics. Your guest's depth (8) doesn't match your host's (24). Fullscreen may have failed because your XF86Config file lacks modes for depth 8. Either add the modes to XF86Config, or switch your guest's depth to match your host's to enable fullscreen mode. Failed to switch to full screen SVGA mode. How should I go about this? I don't want to go the ham-fisted route this time. I was asking in an earlier email in this thread how to get my Hardware Browser back - does anyone know? I'm missing a few things on my menus - like monitor resolution selector (no idea what it's called)... Chris > I remember the box came with 3 different covers available. I believe > my copy has the protos on it. > I bought the "Battle Chest" today - Starcraft, Expansion: Broodwar, and the two guides (books) for them. Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 22:21:48 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:21:48 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <20071003195444.GD4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4703dfff.1d80400a.386a.ffffb4bd@mx.google.com> <20071003195444.GD4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > afio is actually nice in that it can gzip the files individually, while > keeping the header for each file in the archive uncompressed, which > allows much faster seeks and restores of individual files in an archive. > Anything that uses gzip or bzip2 after creating the archive requires > decompressing the whole thing to get at any file in the archive. it is > really just a much better cpio. There is a further benefit, namely that it is specifically designed to be "resyncable." Tapes have a history of sometimes permitting blocks to drop out. If the entire file is compressed as a whole, there's in effect a "cipher feedback loop" such that if it breaks at any point, the remainder is essentially destroyed. In contrast, afio "resyncs" after each file, so that if a portion gets dropped, you can still hope to recover the remainder, perhaps only losing one file. If I were designing a backup system, I'd be *very* inclined to use afio... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 23:16:03 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:16:03 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <20071001145623.GK16329-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> On 10/1/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 10:06:51AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > Debian testing, kernel 2.6.21-2-k7. It's auto-loading the sata_via > > kernel module. [SNIP] > > This is really making me think that I should buy a SATA PCI card ... > > That would allow me to use SATA drives in any of my other computers, > > so it might solve not only the current problem but potentially some > > future ones as well. Does that make sense? > > It does make some sense if the onboard controller is really that much of > a pain. > > What model is the drive again? The hard drive is a Western Digital 500 Gb. WD5000AAKS, WD Caviar SE16. I bought a Bytecc Serial ATA PCI card yesterday on College, with one internal and one external connector for $20. I chose it because it said "Silicon Image Sil3112a" right on the box, and that's a supported chip. And it worked, first try - the "sata_sil" kernel module was autoloaded. But the problems continue. When copying my backup from an external USB hard drive to this new SATA drive, I occasionally get the following error: EXT3-fs error (device sda6): ext3_new_block: Allocating block in system zone - blocks from 42500102, length 1. Not surprisingly, this completely munges the file system (which is indeed ext3). fsck spits millions of errors. So I reformatted the HD, I did two complete rounds of read/write bad blocks checking. The disk seems to be fine. But big copies still cause it to spit this same error. Google suggests that this isn't a particularly common error, but it seems to be associated with Silicon Image SATA controllers. Worse, I found this post: http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/3/12/65 - same error, two years ago. Apparently it hasn't been dealt with, or at least not completely. I am at this point seriously considering buying a 500 Gb IDE drive, maybe use the SATA in an external case. Except with my current success rate, there will be problems with the IDE too. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 23:18:50 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:18:50 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8@mail.gmail.com> <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710031618m4fe6702em8463efbbafa305f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/07, Kareem Shehata wrote: > This is exactly the type of problem that I'm thinking of. Since this is a > "production" server, how do I prevent the backup from suffering the same > fate as the data in the event of a disaster? When I "designed" my backup system, one of the first steps was to get some new harddrives. I have a mirrored pair of 250GB drives for my main system, but I added a mirrored pair of 500GB drives to hold my backups. I figured that the backup drives won't get as much use as the main drives (since I only ever write backups to them once a day), so they're less likely to fail (short of the kind of failure that takes out an entire machine). On my todo list are getting a UPS to help with power problems, and automated copying of the backup repository to Amazon's S3, both of which are supposed to help with the kind of failure that takes out an entire machine. Regarding security, I followed the instructions at the rdiff-backup wiki for an automated, unattended backup. Basically, I have a user on my system named backup that has write access to the backup repository, sudo privileges for some very specific tasks, and nothing else. Nobody but root and backup can read or write to the repository. I backup my server and one of the laptops in the house (the other laptop is also on the todo list). The server backs itself up once a day, shortly after midnight. The laptop has a cronjob to initiate a backup every time it boots. It's a bit overkill, but I haven't spent the time to save backup space by only following through once a day because an incremental backup only cost a couple of megabytes, and the transfer over an 11Mb wireless network takes less than a minute, so the effort outweighs the savings. The laptop initiates a backup by ssh'ing to the server and using the at command to schedule a backup some random number of minutes (between 5 and 20) from when the cronjob executes. (The randomness is there to reduce the perceived impact on the system of doing a backup--my wife can't distinguish it from other system processes--on the other hand, it might be a bit Rube Goldbergish.) The actual backup is controlled by the server, so I occasionally get an error report saying that the backup terminated unexpectedly or couldn't be started because the laptop wasn't on long enough. I just ignore these reports because rdiff-backup automatically fixes an unfinished backup the next time it's run. > Yea, I'm not sure that I like the idea of individual file diffs. It just > seems somewhat fragile, and that level of efficiency is really uncalled for > in this application. I'm not sure exactly what your concern is with diffs. In rdiff-backup's case, diffs are only used for previous versions--the current version of the backup is always available as real files. If you run the backup process as root (not otherwise recommended) the current backup is a mirror of the backed-up files, right down to permissions and ownership. If you run the backup as an unprivileged user, the extra information that can't be recreated by the unprivileged user is stored in ancillary data files. On the other hand, I think rsnapshot keep full versions of every file at every backup point and it saves space by reducing unchanged files to single files with multiple hard links. > Is there a better solution, or just use EXT2 and worst-case use a Live CD to read it? I'd use a journalling filesystem if only to handle the unlikely situation of a system crash _during_ a backup, so I wouldn't recommend ext2. My attitude towards readability is also that you just need to keep around one system that can read the backup, which is probably the machine that contains the backup itself. If that system appears to be "going out of style", then make a new system and copy the files over. Ideally, you'll have two backups--one on-site and one off-site. If either one gets so hosed that you can't use the backup system itself to read its backup, you need to rebuild that backup system anyway, right? Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 00:26:35 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:26:35 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security Message-ID: Some time ago I argued that there is no difference between security of GET and POST methods when using http. How however about when https protocol is used? Well, I know, I could find the answer myself. But this way is hopefully quicker and talking with others on this list is always a pleasure to me. URL address posted by GET method is volnurable to interception by monkey in the middle, in case of both, http and https requests. So, for instance, sending GET https requests with session id within URL seems risky. How about if session id was send through POST method? Thats not clear to me - will it be encrypted or not? zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 00:57:05 2007 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:57:05 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> No, if you are accessing URL http://foo.bar/blat/babble?zot&zoot everything after domain name, i.e. everything after the 3rd / is part of the content, and the domain name in only visible in the IP headers as an IP address. So, if you instead use https, since everything in the contents is encrypted, the only accessible information on or in the packets is the origin and destination IP addresses. So there is no difference in security between GET and POST. To see this, you can replicate the above browser request by: telnet foo.bar 80 GET /blat/babble?zot&zoot HTTP/1.0 (note 2 newlines after the GET line, because since you included the HTTP/1.0 you are allowed to send headers, and you need a blank line to show the end of the headers). The GET line and the headers are content. Similarly: telnet foo.bar 80 POST /blat/babble HTTP/1.0 various magic to encode (not encrypt) zot & zoot Here the POST line, headers and the encoding for zot and zoot are all content. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 01:22:08 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:22:08 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Dave Mason wrote: > No, if you are accessing URL http://foo.bar/blat/babble?zot&zoot > everything after domain name, i.e. everything after the 3rd / is part of > the content, and the domain name in only visible in the IP headers as an > IP address. I have got it! I understand now! :) > So, if you instead use https, since everything in the > contents is encrypted, the only accessible information on or in the > packets is the origin and destination IP addresses. > > So there is no difference in security between GET and POST. Because both behave in the same way. On http they are accessible, and on https they are encrypted. Right? I am sure so, now. BTW, I have a feeling that Tomcat does not care is that GET or POST? Eh, well, Tomcat is another story... It took me a lot of pain to have it under reasonable control. > To see this, you can replicate the above browser request by: I wanted to sniff things and learn in that way, and I thought about ethereal. But installing it is sometime a pain when dependances are missing. I am on Centos 5. Are there around other good sniffing tools? I do not care about GUI, would prefer rather a text based tool. Thanks a lot! zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 01:41:40 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:41:40 -0700 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710031841t5fea4950n9930641359433841@mail.gmail.com> It is generally a "best practice" to avoid sending any sensitive information in the URL (GET) even with https. Reason. http://www.somesite.com?username=foo&password=bar Guess what happens when somebody checks your "history" in the browser, or perhaps the history file on the PC. Yup, it's right there in plaintext in the URL. It does require access to the machine (or an exploit allowing access to the history), but it's still a safer plan to use POST requests if possible. On 10/3/07, Dave Mason wrote: > No, if you are accessing URL http://foo.bar/blat/babble?zot&zoot > everything after domain name, i.e. everything after the 3rd / is part of > the content, and the domain name in only visible in the IP headers as an > IP address. So, if you instead use https, since everything in the > contents is encrypted, the only accessible information on or in the > packets is the origin and destination IP addresses. > > So there is no difference in security between GET and POST. > > To see this, you can replicate the above browser request by: > > telnet foo.bar 80 > GET /blat/babble?zot&zoot HTTP/1.0 > > (note 2 newlines after the GET line, because since you included the > HTTP/1.0 you are allowed to send headers, and you need a blank line to > show the end of the headers). The GET line and the headers are content. > Similarly: > > telnet foo.bar 80 > POST /blat/babble HTTP/1.0 > > various magic to encode (not encrypt) zot & zoot > > Here the POST line, headers and the encoding for zot and zoot are all content. > > ../Dave > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 02:05:44 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:05:44 -0400 Subject: Ongoing SATA woes Message-ID: <1f13df280710031905n650f7742j2d64c4076b4a046@mail.gmail.com> My apologies once again if this is double-posted. gmail and/or tlug doesn't seem to like it when I post twice on the same subject(?). Please let me know if this post has seen the light of day before. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Giles Orr Date: Oct 3, 2007 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: First SATA drive - not working To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org On 10/1/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 10:06:51AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > Debian testing, kernel 2.6.21-2-k7. It's auto-loading the sata_via > > kernel module. [SNIP] > > This is really making me think that I should buy a SATA PCI card ... > > That would allow me to use SATA drives in any of my other computers, > > so it might solve not only the current problem but potentially some > > future ones as well. Does that make sense? > > It does make some sense if the onboard controller is really that much of > a pain. > > What model is the drive again? The hard drive is a Western Digital 500 Gb. WD5000AAKS, WD Caviar SE16. I bought a Bytecc Serial ATA PCI card yesterday on College, with one internal and one external connector for $20. I chose it because it said "Silicon Image Sil3112a" right on the box, and that's a supported chip. And it worked, first try - the "sata_sil" kernel module was autoloaded. But the problems continue. When copying my backup from an external USB hard drive to this new SATA drive, I occasionally get the following error: EXT3-fs error (device sda6): ext3_new_block: Allocating block in system zone - blocks from 42500102, length 1. Not surprisingly, this completely munges the file system (which is indeed ext3). fsck spits millions of errors. So I reformatted the HD, I did two complete rounds of read/write bad blocks checking. The disk seems to be fine. But big copies still cause it to spit this same error. Google suggests that this isn't a particularly common error, but it seems to be associated with Silicon Image SATA controllers. Worse, I found this post: http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/3/12/65 - same error, two years ago. Apparently it hasn't been dealt with, or at least not completely. I am at this point seriously considering buying a 500 Gb IDE drive, maybe use the SATA in an external case. Except with my current success rate, there will be problems with the IDE too. P.S. One theory to consider: is it possible that disabling the (not working) motherboard SATA and/or not loading the kernel "sata_via" module would stop the issues? I'm tired enough of grasping at straws that I haven't tried this yet. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 11:58:44 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:58:44 -0400 Subject: GTALUG wiki Message-ID: <408ae1640710040458h25feff13y95473e9aa3c40ff1@mail.gmail.com> The front page of GTA LUG is out of date, showing several events as "coming soon" that have already passed. Would somebody update the page please? And please add Ontario Linux Fest, Saturday 13 October 2007 to the upcoming events. Thanks, I'd do it myself but the page is locked, even to registered users. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:39:33 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:39:33 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 07:16:03PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > The hard drive is a Western Digital 500 Gb. WD5000AAKS, WD Caviar SE16. > > I bought a Bytecc Serial ATA PCI card yesterday on College, with one > internal and one external connector for $20. I chose it because it > said "Silicon Image Sil3112a" right on the box, and that's a supported > chip. And it worked, first try - the "sata_sil" kernel module was > autoloaded. Well I have certainly run a lot of WD SATA drives from a Sil3112a. I haven't used that particular model. I have used the WD5000AAKS with both intel sata controllers and promise sata controllers without problems, as well as using a USB enclosure for that drive. I have also used the WD3200KS with the Sil3112a with no problems. > But the problems continue. When copying my backup from an external > USB hard drive to this new SATA drive, I occasionally get the > following error: > > EXT3-fs error (device sda6): ext3_new_block: Allocating > block in system zone - blocks from 42500102, length 1. That really sound odd. That sounds more like a kernel bug than a disk error. > Not surprisingly, this completely munges the file system (which is > indeed ext3). fsck spits millions of errors. So I reformatted the > HD, I did two complete rounds of read/write bad blocks checking. The > disk seems to be fine. But big copies still cause it to spit this > same error. Google suggests that this isn't a particularly common > error, but it seems to be associated with Silicon Image SATA > controllers. Worse, I found this post: > http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/3/12/65 - same error, two years ago. > Apparently it hasn't been dealt with, or at least not completely. > > I am at this point seriously considering buying a 500 Gb IDE drive, > maybe use the SATA in an external case. Except with my current > success rate, there will be problems with the IDE too. Well the Sil3112a is known to not like many seagate sata drives (supposedly seagate did something wrong in their early sata firmware). Now since the Sil3112a is a SATA 1 controller, you could try jumpering the drive back to SATA 1 speeds and disable all SATA 2 features. See diagram here: http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1409&p_created=1138290141#jumper It is the jumper setting for OPT1. The spread spectrum setting might also be worth looking at. I always avoid spread spectrum whenever possible since it does really annoying things to clock frequencies which can screw up some things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:44:34 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:44:34 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47041166.8050309-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 06:02:14PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Yeah, I've already burnwed a copy of my son's (it's getting old) - it > works fine. > > Now, to get full screen working in the vm: > > Unable to turn on direct graphics. > Your guest's depth (8) doesn't match your host's (24). Fullscreen may > have failed because your XF86Config file lacks modes for depth 8. > Either add the modes to XF86Config, or switch your guest's depth to > match your host's to enable fullscreen mode. > Failed to switch to full screen SVGA mode. > > How should I go about this? I don't want to go the ham-fisted route this > time. I was asking in an earlier email in this thread how to get my > Hardware Browser back - does anyone know? I'm missing a few things on my > menus - like monitor resolution selector (no idea what it's called)... Well if you look in your X configuration file (usually /etc/X11/xorg.conf) see what it lists for the screen section. For example: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX 5200]" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Modes "800x600" EndSubSection EndSection That is from an Xorg 7.3. Older versions were a little different I believe. Here is one from 7.1: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX 5200]" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 1 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 4 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 15 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection Notice how each Display Subsection mentions a depth and what resolutions to allow at that depth. This configuration should allow going full screen in any of those depths with any of those resolutions. Some systems configure X with only one section and hence only one depth and as a result applications can't request another mode since there is no configuration for it. What does your X config have for the Screen section? > I bought the "Battle Chest" today - Starcraft, Expansion: Broodwar, and > the two guides (books) for them. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:46:09 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:46:09 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071004134609.GJ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 08:26:35PM -0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Some time ago I argued that there is no difference between security of > GET and POST methods when using http. > > How however about when https protocol is used? > > Well, I know, I could find the answer myself. But this way is > hopefully quicker and talking with others on this list is always a > pleasure to me. > > URL address posted by GET method is volnurable to interception by > monkey in the middle, in case of both, http and https requests. So, > for instance, sending GET https requests with session id within URL > seems risky. How about if session id was send through POST method? > Thats not clear to me - will it be encrypted or not? Yes with https using post does encrypt the data, while using get would not. -- Len SOrensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:47:33 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:47:33 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20071004134733.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 08:57:05PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > No, if you are accessing URL http://foo.bar/blat/babble?zot&zoot > everything after domain name, i.e. everything after the 3rd / is part of > the content, and the domain name in only visible in the IP headers as an > IP address. So, if you instead use https, since everything in the > contents is encrypted, the only accessible information on or in the > packets is the origin and destination IP addresses. > > So there is no difference in security between GET and POST. > > To see this, you can replicate the above browser request by: > > telnet foo.bar 80 > GET /blat/babble?zot&zoot HTTP/1.0 > > (note 2 newlines after the GET line, because since you included the > HTTP/1.0 you are allowed to send headers, and you need a blank line to > show the end of the headers). The GET line and the headers are content. > Similarly: > > telnet foo.bar 80 > POST /blat/babble HTTP/1.0 > > various magic to encode (not encrypt) zot & zoot > > Here the POST line, headers and the encoding for zot and zoot are all content. Hmm, I think you are right. Just because it looks that way in the browser doesn't mean it is part of the same request. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:47:58 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:47:58 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <20071004134609.GJ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004134609.GJ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071004134758.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 09:46:09AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Yes with https using post does encrypt the data, while using get would > not. No, I am wrong, Dave is right. It makes no difference. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:49:12 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:49:12 -0400 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710031841t5fea4950n9930641359433841-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0710031841t5fea4950n9930641359433841@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071004134912.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 06:41:40PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote: > It is generally a "best practice" to avoid sending any sensitive > information in the URL (GET) even with https. > > Reason. > > http://www.somesite.com?username=foo&password=bar > > Guess what happens when somebody checks your "history" in the browser, > or perhaps the history file on the PC. Yup, it's right there in > plaintext in the URL. It does require access to the machine (or an > exploit allowing access to the history), but it's still a safer plan > to use POST requests if possible. That is NOT the protocols fault. That would be a flaw in the browser design. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:53:40 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:53:40 -0400 Subject: Cross-Platform Backup Software In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710031618m4fe6702em8463efbbafa305f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710031146je44fe60yab5c0aeb626fc1f8@mail.gmail.com> <4703ee17.061d400a.3b72.ffffc0bf@mx.google.com> <7ac602420710031618m4fe6702em8463efbbafa305f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071004135340.GN4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 07:18:50PM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote: > When I "designed" my backup system, one of the first steps was to get > some new harddrives. I have a mirrored pair of 250GB drives for my > main system, but I added a mirrored pair of 500GB drives to hold my > backups. I figured that the backup drives won't get as much use as > the main drives (since I only ever write backups to them once a day), > so they're less likely to fail (short of the kind of failure that > takes out an entire machine). On my todo list are getting a UPS to > help with power problems, and automated copying of the backup > repository to Amazon's S3, both of which are supposed to help with the > kind of failure that takes out an entire machine. Get a UPS. Sometimes you get good deals. My TV (and mythtv box) run on a SmartUPS 1500. Nice deal from dell for $200 with free shipping (which counts for something on a 60 pound box). > On the other hand, I think rsnapshot keep full versions of every file > at every backup point and it saves space by reducing unchanged files > to single files with multiple hard links. That is right. Works very well too. We use that as an online backup system on our servers so that if people screw up they can go to a readonly place and get the rsnapshot versions of the file back. > I'd use a journalling filesystem if only to handle the unlikely > situation of a system crash _during_ a backup, so I wouldn't recommend > ext2. My attitude towards readability is also that you just need to > keep around one system that can read the backup, which is probably the > machine that contains the backup itself. If that system appears to be > "going out of style", then make a new system and copy the files over. > Ideally, you'll have two backups--one on-site and one off-site. If > either one gets so hosed that you can't use the backup system itself > to read its backup, you need to rebuild that backup system anyway, > right? ext3 saves an awful lot of time at boot time if the previous shutdown wasn't clean. Most of the time ext3 doesn't have to run fsck to get back to a known state, while ext2 can go off on a 2 or 3 hour fsck run if you have a large disk. Sure once in a whiile ext3 recommends running a full fsck just in case, which takes just as long, but at least it is only once in a while, and you could actually decide when to do it and schedule downtime for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 13:57:18 2007 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:57:18 +0300 Subject: Non blocking RBL with exim Message-ID: Hallo, Exim by default reject any mails that originate from a domain listed on rbl. This is all good, but then once in a while, a clean mail came along and end up being discarded. It then became a pain when a user(s) start complaining that they have lost some of their mails. The options then are to either disabled the RBL or ignore the user who is complaining. None of these options are ideal. I wonder if anyone has pointer on a way of using the rbl database to just score the mail, and then allow them through. It would then be possible to let SpamAssassin act on them in a more flexible manner. Any pointer will be highly appreciated. Regards William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 14:00:16 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:00:16 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <20071004133933.GH4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well I have certainly run a lot of WD SATA drives from a Sil3112a. I > haven't used that particular model. I have used the WD5000AAKS with > both intel sata controllers and promise sata controllers without > problems, as well as using a USB enclosure for that drive. I have also > used the WD3200KS with the Sil3112a with no problems. Lennart, The depth and breadth of your experience and knowledge absolutely astonishes me. In fact, I'm fairly certain that you use some form of magic to double the number of hours in the day, not to mention giving yourself total recall. However you do it, it's appreciated! Thank you. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 14:14:47 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GTALUG wiki In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710040458h25feff13y95473e9aa3c40ff1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710040458h25feff13y95473e9aa3c40ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <806682.60755.qm@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Interlug Lists wrote: > The front page of GTA LUG is out of date, showing > several events as > "coming soon" that have already passed. > > Would somebody update the page please? Fixed. > And please add Ontario Linux Fest, Saturday 13 > October 2007 to the > upcoming events. Done. > Thanks, > > I'd do it myself but the page is locked, even to > registered users. Yes, we have had some trouble with spammers dumping adverts. for junk into the Wiki. The spammers will get a throw away registered user account on the Wiki, and then upload spam. Drew Sullivan is working on setting up an updated Wiki with a number of new security features. In the mean time the most popular spam target pages (like the main page) have been locked down hard so that unless you are on a (short) approved list you can not edit said pages... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 14:37:26 2007 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:37:26 +0300 Subject: Oreillys--Managing RAID on Linux In-Reply-To: <20071003200115.GF4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003200115.GF4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Hi, I second that. LVM only settled after RHEL3/Linux 2.6.* I would therefore assume a 5 year book isn't going to be helpful unless for general knowledge of logical volume managers. See if the howto below will be helpful http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO Regards, William On 03/10/2007, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 11:39:14AM -0400, Teddy Mills wrote: > > > > Does anyone know where a copy of this exists ? > > (apparently out of stock) > > Given it is 5 years old by now, it probably is rather out of date by > now. It doesn't mention LVM, it doesn't cover mdadm I imagine, so it > probably really doesn't cover any of what you actually would want to > know today. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 14:48:33 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:48:33 -0400 Subject: Chris F. Johnson Message-ID: <4704FD41.7050308@chrisaitken.net> Chris F. Johnson (sp?) can you please email me privately (I think you're the Chris Johnson that used to work with my dad)? I have some news for you. Chris Aitken -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 14:51:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:51:15 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071004134434.GI4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002193138.GD20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702AA6D.7080102@chrisaitken.net> <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 06:02:14PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Yeah, I've already burnwed a copy of my son's (it's getting old) - it >> works fine. >> >> Now, to get full screen working in the vm: >> >> Unable to turn on direct graphics. >> Your guest's depth (8) doesn't match your host's (24). Fullscreen may >> have failed because your XF86Config file lacks modes for depth 8. >> Either add the modes to XF86Config, or switch your guest's depth to >> match your host's to enable fullscreen mode. >> Failed to switch to full screen SVGA mode. >> >> How should I go about this? I don't want to go the ham-fisted route this >> time. I was asking in an earlier email in this thread how to get my >> Hardware Browser back - does anyone know? I'm missing a few things on my >> menus - like monitor resolution selector (no idea what it's called)... >> > > Well if you look in your X configuration file (usually > /etc/X11/xorg.conf) see what it lists for the screen section. > > For example: > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Default Screen" > Device "nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX 5200]" > Monitor "Generic Monitor" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Modes "800x600" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > That is from an Xorg 7.3. > > Older versions were a little different I believe. Here is one from 7.1: > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Default Screen" > Device "nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX 5200]" > Monitor "Generic Monitor" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Depth 1 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Depth 4 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Depth 8 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Depth 15 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Depth 16 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Depth 24 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > Notice how each Display Subsection mentions a depth and what resolutions > to allow at that depth. This configuration should allow going full > screen in any of those depths with any of those resolutions. Some > systems configure X with only one section and hence only one depth and > as a result applications can't request another mode since there is no > configuration for it. > > What does your X config have for the Screen section? > [chris at p733 ~]$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf # Xorg configuration created by pyxf86config Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "Default Layout" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "kbd" Option "XkbModel" "pc105" Option "XkbLayout" "us" EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "i810" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 EndSubSection EndSection -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 15:15:03 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:15:03 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4704FDE3.8030802-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 10:51:15AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > [chris at p733 ~]$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf > # Xorg configuration created by pyxf86config > > Section "ServerLayout" > Identifier "Default Layout" > Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 > InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" > EndSection > > Section "InputDevice" > Identifier "Keyboard0" > Driver "kbd" > Option "XkbModel" "pc105" > Option "XkbLayout" "us" > EndSection > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "i810" > EndSection > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 24 > EndSubSection > EndSection Try changing the last section to: Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 16 EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 8 EndSubSection EndSection That should I believe then allow X to swithc to 8 or 16 bit colour mode if an application requests it. 1, 4 and 15 bit depth aren't used very often but if you want to be really complete add those too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 15:17:06 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ontario Linux Fest Message-ID: <898000.26278.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I would like to have a little meeting this evening at 7:00 PM regarding the upcoming Ontario Linux Fest. The meeting will be at the Starbucks inside the Indigo store at Yonge & Eglinton (2300 Yonge St). First order of business will be to decide who will lead the GTALug efforts on site (NOT me, I have a family commitment that I can not get out of, so someone else will have to take the on-site lead). Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 16:07:25 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:07:25 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071004151503.GO4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4702B7FF.5060907@chrisaitken.net> <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 10:51:15AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> [chris at p733 ~]$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf >> # Xorg configuration created by pyxf86config >> >> Section "ServerLayout" >> Identifier "Default Layout" >> Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 >> InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" >> EndSection >> >> Section "InputDevice" >> Identifier "Keyboard0" >> Driver "kbd" >> Option "XkbModel" "pc105" >> Option "XkbLayout" "us" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Device" >> Identifier "Videocard0" >> Driver "i810" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Screen" >> Identifier "Screen0" >> Device "Videocard0" >> DefaultDepth 24 >> SubSection "Display" >> Viewport 0 0 >> Depth 24 >> EndSubSection >> EndSection >> > > Try changing the last section to: > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 24 > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 16 > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 8 > EndSubSection > EndSection > > That should I believe then allow X to swithc to 8 or 16 bit colour mode > if an application requests it. > > 1, 4 and 15 bit depth aren't used very often but if you want to be > really complete add those too. > okay I added those lines to /etc/X11/xorg.conf and did a reboot (since I can't remember the command to get the new settings to stick). In vmware I'm still getting Unable to turn on direct graphics. Your guest's depth (8) doesn't match your host's (24). Fullscreen may have failed because your XF86Config file lacks modes for depth 8. Either add the modes to XF86Config, or switch your guest's depth to match your host's to enable fullscreen mode. Failed to switch to full screen SVGA mode. What is the command in linux to get the new /etc/X11/xorg.conf settings to stick? /sbin/service resolution restart [?] (I doubt it) Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 16:42:46 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto Message-ID: <10725.48312.qm@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am looking for a good, inexpensive and tough outdoor TV antenna for use with my MythTV box. I am on Rogers cable, which for the most part I am basically happy with. The problems with Rogers show up when it comes to my first stabs with HDTV using a pcHDTV-5500 tuner card in my MythTV box. Up until quite recently I gather Roger's offered SOME digital channels unencrypted (but not at high definition). So, to get any sort of usable digital signal from Rogers you now need to rent a cable box (something I can not cost justify and I don't want the pain of sorting out the issues of having the Myth box control the cable box). The folks doing KnoppMyth (the distro I use on my MythTV box) have (at least for now) dropped analog support for pcHDTV-5500 (due problems with the current driver). So, to see anything via that pcHDTV-5500 card I need a digital signal. Using a plain old fashion rabbit ear style antenna I was able to get CBC-HD from the ground floor (CBC has the most powerful HDTV transmitter in Toronto). Shifting the antenna up to the attic, and attaching an amplifier added CTV-HD and some of the Buffalo based HDTV channels. Next I tried building one of the antennas described here: www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613 If anything performance was slightly worse than the rabbit ear/amp combo.. So, what I am looking for now is an inexpensive commercial antenna that I could mount outdoors and increase the number of HDTV channels I can reliably get over the air. I say reliably because, I can get the three Buffalo PBS stations in HDTV, I periodically (like every few seconds) get pixelization and audio drop-outs. Further the pcHDTV card driver starts acting squirrelly when faced with a bad signal... Suggestions? Colin McGregor P.S. A good source of info. regarding Toronto area HDTV broadcasters can be seen here: www.remotecentral.com/hdtv/index.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 17:03:13 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:03:13 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47050FBD.7090905-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071002212420.GF20811@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/4/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > > SubSection "Display" > > Viewport 0 0 > > Depth 8 > > EndSubSection > > EndSection I think it's trying to set the resolution, not just the colour depth. try modifying the 8-bit depth subsection: SubSection "Display" Modes "800x600" "640x480" Viewport 0 0 Depth 8 EndSubSection That way it'll do 8-bit colour depth at 800x600 or 640x480, one of which is what I believe Starcraft wants. And there's no command to make X re-read its config. It's broken that way. The easiest way (although least tasteful) is a reboot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 17:29:34 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:29:34 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <47050FBD.7090905-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:07:25PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > okay I added those lines to /etc/X11/xorg.conf and did a reboot (since I > can't remember the command to get the new settings to stick). In vmware > I'm still getting > > Unable to turn on direct graphics. > Your guest's depth (8) doesn't match your host's (24). Fullscreen may > have failed because your XF86Config file lacks modes for depth 8. > Either add the modes to XF86Config, or switch your guest's depth to > match your host's to enable fullscreen mode. > Failed to switch to full screen SVGA mode. > > What is the command in linux to get the new /etc/X11/xorg.conf settings > to stick? > > /sbin/service resolution restart [?] Just restarting X should do (hitting control+alt+backspace will kill X and it will then start a new one with the settings in the config). I wonder what vmware is trying to use for full screen. I am pretty sure I have done full screen recently with vmware server without any issues but I don't remember for sure. Of course I was running 24 bit everywhere, while your windows guest might be running the game in 256 colour mode (was starcraft really 256 colour?). You could try running X in 256 colour mode and see if that works (change the default colour depth in the config from 24 to 8). Of course that sucks for everything else. Which version of vmware are you using? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 17:32:45 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:32:45 -0400 Subject: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto In-Reply-To: <10725.48312.qm-2K+iNxKRQwOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <10725.48312.qm@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071004173245.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:42:46PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > I am looking for a good, inexpensive and tough outdoor > TV antenna for use with my MythTV box. > > I am on Rogers cable, which for the most part I am > basically happy with. The problems with Rogers show up > when it comes to my first stabs with HDTV using a > pcHDTV-5500 tuner card in my MythTV box. Up until > quite recently I gather Roger's offered SOME digital > channels unencrypted (but not at high definition). So, > to get any sort of usable digital signal from Rogers > you now need to rent a cable box (something I can not > cost justify and I don't want the pain of sorting out > the issues of having the Myth box control the cable > box). > > The folks doing KnoppMyth (the distro I use on my > MythTV box) have (at least for now) dropped analog > support for pcHDTV-5500 (due problems with the current > driver). So, to see anything via that pcHDTV-5500 card > I need a digital signal. By digital do they mean ATSC or QAM only? By analog do the mean NTSC or all things using an antenna? I guess they mean NTSC isn't stable. > Using a plain old fashion rabbit ear style antenna I > was able to get CBC-HD from the ground floor (CBC has > the most powerful HDTV transmitter in Toronto). > Shifting the antenna up to the attic, and attaching an > amplifier added CTV-HD and some of the Buffalo based > HDTV channels. Next I tried building one of the > antennas described here: > > www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613 Nifty. > If anything performance was slightly worse than the > rabbit ear/amp combo.. So, what I am looking for now > is an inexpensive commercial antenna that I could > mount outdoors and increase the number of HDTV > channels I can reliably get over the air. I say > reliably because, I can get the three Buffalo PBS > stations in HDTV, I periodically (like every few > seconds) get pixelization and audio drop-outs. Further > the pcHDTV card driver starts acting squirrelly when > faced with a bad signal... I keep meaning to try playing with an HDTV tuner card and an antenna. I might have more incentive if I actually had an HDTV to watch it on. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 17:53:56 2007 From: gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (George Nicol) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:53:56 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470528B4.7060900@primus.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > Lennart, > > The depth and breadth of your experience and knowledge absolutely > astonishes me. In fact, I'm fairly certain that you use some form of > magic to double the number of hours in the day, not to mention giving > yourself total recall. However you do it, it's appreciated! Thank > you. (Len) sorensen compression? . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 18:23:07 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:23:07 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <470528B4.7060900-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4@mail.gmail.com> <470528B4.7060900@primus.ca> Message-ID: <20071004182307.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 01:53:56PM -0400, George Nicol wrote: > (Len) sorensen compression? I think filtering is more likely. My wife complains about the stuff I don't remember at all. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 18:27:07 2007 From: gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (George Nicol) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <20071004182307.GR4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709272143u441b6d6bj41260d49d1c7b3dd@mail.gmail.com> <20070928145852.GC21733@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4@mail.gmail.com> <470528B4.7060900@primus.ca> <20071004182307.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4705307B.3020809@primus.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I think filtering is more likely. My wife complains about the stuff I > don't remember at all. :) Not birthdays or anniversaries, I hope. . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 18:53:12 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:53:12 -0400 Subject: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto In-Reply-To: <20071004173245.GQ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004173245.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47053667.1038400a.3382.6b79@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of Lennart Sorensen > Sent: Thursday 04 October 2007 13:33 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto > > I keep meaning to try playing with an HDTV tuner card and an > antenna. I might have more incentive if I actually had an > HDTV to watch it on. Simply hooking a data projector up to a PC with a DVD-ROM and a tuner card has worked very well for me for years. Better res and clearer than any set-top solution I've seen, and cheaper too. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 18:53:50 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto In-Reply-To: <20071004173245.GQ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004173245.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <531405.65367.qm@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:42:46PM -0400, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > I am looking for a good, inexpensive and tough > outdoor > > TV antenna for use with my MythTV box. > > > > I am on Rogers cable, which for the most part I am > > basically happy with. The problems with Rogers > show up > > when it comes to my first stabs with HDTV using a > > pcHDTV-5500 tuner card in my MythTV box. Up until > > quite recently I gather Roger's offered SOME > digital > > channels unencrypted (but not at high definition). > So, > > to get any sort of usable digital signal from > Rogers > > you now need to rent a cable box (something I can > not > > cost justify and I don't want the pain of sorting > out > > the issues of having the Myth box control the > cable > > box). > > > > The folks doing KnoppMyth (the distro I use on my > > MythTV box) have (at least for now) dropped analog > > support for pcHDTV-5500 (due problems with the > current > > driver). So, to see anything via that pcHDTV-5500 > card > > I need a digital signal. > > By digital do they mean ATSC or QAM only? By analog > do the mean NTSC or > all things using an antenna? I guess they mean NTSC > isn't stable. ATSC is the standard for over the air HDTV broadcasts, the QAM standards (and I am aware of 3 QAM standards QAM-64, QAM-128 and QAM-256) are used by the cable companies for HDTV signals. I am NOT concerned with NTSC-M (the analog TV standard in North America plus parts of Asia and South America). So, yes the card supports ATSC and the unencrypted QAM signals. The card can support NTSC-M, BUT due to driver problems the current version of KnoppMyth have dropped that feature (hopefully to return in a later version...). > > Using a plain old fashion rabbit ear style antenna > I > > was able to get CBC-HD from the ground floor (CBC > has > > the most powerful HDTV transmitter in Toronto). > > Shifting the antenna up to the attic, and > attaching an > > amplifier added CTV-HD and some of the Buffalo > based > > HDTV channels. Next I tried building one of the > > antennas described here: > > > > www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613 > > Nifty. > > > If anything performance was slightly worse than > the > > rabbit ear/amp combo.. So, what I am looking for > now > > is an inexpensive commercial antenna that I could > > mount outdoors and increase the number of HDTV > > channels I can reliably get over the air. I say > > reliably because, I can get the three Buffalo PBS > > stations in HDTV, I periodically (like every few > > seconds) get pixelization and audio drop-outs. > Further > > the pcHDTV card driver starts acting squirrelly > when > > faced with a bad signal... > > I keep meaning to try playing with an HDTV tuner > card and an antenna. I > might have more incentive if I actually had an HDTV > to watch it on. Well, HDTV looks VERY nice when displayed on my old 20" CRT monitor :-) . Bottom line, for the cost of a Linux supported HDTV card and some sort of antenna you can get your toe into HDTV... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 19:16:52 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:16:52 -0400 Subject: First SATA drive - not working In-Reply-To: <4705307B.3020809-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280709291233h4fd23789j39ca20e3d68b2f1e@mail.gmail.com> <20071001132102.GF16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710010706g1c0179b9kf00bac1673decbd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071001145623.GK16329@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710031616h1cf7e239j47ec493115874e69@mail.gmail.com> <20071004133933.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710040700p34dd693bob51d9ffedb1bbef4@mail.gmail.com> <470528B4.7060900@primus.ca> <20071004182307.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4705307B.3020809@primus.ca> Message-ID: <20071004191652.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 02:27:07PM -0400, George Nicol wrote: > Not birthdays or anniversaries, I hope. No those I remember better than her. More like what I was supposed to do today. I remember facts, not schedules. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 19:18:09 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:18:09 -0400 Subject: TV Antennas or MythTV and HDTV in Toronto In-Reply-To: <531405.65367.qm-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004173245.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <531405.65367.qm@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071004191809.GT4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 02:53:50PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, HDTV looks VERY nice when displayed on my old > 20" CRT monitor :-) . Bottom line, for the cost of a > Linux supported HDTV card and some sort of antenna you > can get your toe into HDTV... HDTV would actually look rather nice on my new 24" 1920x1200 monitor. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 21:16:19 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:16:19 -0700 Subject: 80:483 - GET and POST security In-Reply-To: <20071004134912.GM4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004005705.EE1A4854F6@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0710031841t5fea4950n9930641359433841@mail.gmail.com> <20071004134912.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710041416o6c0ae43fwa72bf70ef5fbccea@mail.gmail.com> Yes, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't be aware of such and make allowances for it. On 10/4/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 06:41:40PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote: > > It is generally a "best practice" to avoid sending any sensitive > > information in the URL (GET) even with https. > > > > Reason. > > > > http://www.somesite.com?username=foo&password=bar > > > > Guess what happens when somebody checks your "history" in the browser, > > or perhaps the history file on the PC. Yup, it's right there in > > plaintext in the URL. It does require access to the machine (or an > > exploit allowing access to the history), but it's still a safer plan > > to use POST requests if possible. > > That is NOT the protocols fault. That would be a flaw in the browser > design. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 4 23:40:08 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:40:08 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071004172934.GP4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4702BC66.6060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071003120639.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Just restarting X should do (hitting control+alt+backspace will kill X > and it will then start a new one with the settings in the config). > > I wonder what vmware is trying to use for full screen. vmware is fine running (for instance) IE in depth 16 when the host (linux) is in 16. It's when I try to run /Starcraft/ that I get the message that the guest's depth (8) does not match the host's (16). But when I go into system-config-display the depths to choose from only go as low as "Thousands of colours" [16]. I guess my AVITRON AV-7T monitor won't dumb down to depth 8. When I try to force the setting (vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf) the monitor goes haywire and I have to go intot he command line to set /etc/X11/xorg.conf back the way it was. So it is vmware that says no to Starcraft because it can't get the host to run in depth 8. So, what do I do? Do I choose a monitor type (in system-config-display so I don't directly break /etc/X11/xorg.conf again) that will support depth 8 even though it won't be the correct driver for my monitor? > I am pretty sure > I have done full screen recently with vmware server without any issues > but I don't remember for sure. Of course I was running 24 bit > everywhere, while your windows guest might be running the game in 256 > colour mode (was starcraft really 256 colour?). > > You could try running X in 256 colour mode and see if that works (change > the default colour depth in the config from 24 to 8). Of course that > sucks for everything else. > > Which version of vmware are you using? > 4.5.1 Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 02:38:30 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:38:30 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest Message-ID: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> Is it just me or is it exciting in here? Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source festivities. Some of the "goodies" for the attendee "goodie bags" have started rolling in. I'm impressed. Our sponsors have gone out of their way to provide our attendees with some memorable stuff, to go along with the memorable presentations that you'll see at the fest. The contributions from Solarbotics and an anonymous donor are particularly generous and will have you buzzing. And don't forget the networking. You'll meet people from elsewhere in Ontario and the surrounding regions who may have already solved exactly the problem that is vexing you today. The Welcome Party is sponsored by Lullabot and is booked at our "secret location" for Friday the 12th. You will only get the email revealing the location if you have completed your paid registration. We are closing advanced registration at Noon (Toronto time) on Wednesday, 10th October, 2007. You'll still be able to attend Ontario Linux Fest by paying at the door. Pre-registration is the way to go though, all tickets will be $60 at the door. So register today. http://onlinux.ca/olfreg The BoFs and hands-on demos are coming together now. There are still some sponsor spots available for GNU/Linux friendly companies and projects. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 09:22:52 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 05:22:52 -0400 Subject: Most expensive 24 songs ever Message-ID: <014c01c80731$4ef0e060$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003926501_download er05.html The recording industry Thursday won the largest judgment so far against consumers who illegally download music over the Internet when a federal jury ordered a 30-year-old Minnesota woman to pay $222,000 for copyright infringement. Basically a 30 year old single mother is now bankrupt because she downloaded 24 songs on Kazaa. Wow. When things like this happen it just makes me want to go out and buy a WHOLE BUNCH of CDs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 10:48:14 2007 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:48:14 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710050648.15076.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> On Thursday 04 October 2007 22:38:30 Interlug Lists wrote: > Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are > coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon > Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source > festivities. Does anyone know if there might be wireless (or wired) Internet access? I had been planning to come but was just told that I should be "available" on the 13th for work. -- Fraser Campbell Georgetown, Ontario, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 10:53:31 2007 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:53:31 -0400 Subject: Most expensive 24 songs ever In-Reply-To: <014c01c80731$4ef0e060$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <014c01c80731$4ef0e060$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <4705DF6B.9213.C029774@sciguy.vex.net> > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003926501_download > er05.html > > > The recording industry Thursday won the largest judgment so far against > consumers who illegally download music over the Internet when a federal jury > ordered a 30-year-old Minnesota woman to pay $222,000 for copyright > infringement. > > > Basically a 30 year old single mother is now bankrupt because she downloaded > 24 songs on Kazaa. Wow. When things like this happen it just makes me want > to go out and buy a WHOLE BUNCH of CDs. > > I think that is the main point. Later in the article, it appears that every industry insider (anonymous sources, though) the reporter writes about say that the music industry is defeating their own object by choosing litigation. They haven't even decided if they will proceed with collections. And, I am sure she is not one of the internet-addicted multiposters they really wanted to nab. Why the choice of this woman? I also wonder if there was any evidence that someone else used her computer to download tunes. The article didn't seem clear. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > __________ NOD32 2573 (20071005) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 10:50:08 2007 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:50:08 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> On Thursday 04 October 2007 22:38:30 Interlug Lists wrote: > Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are > coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon > Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source > festivities. Your list of sponsors has disappeared from the site. -- Fraser Campbell Georgetown, Ontario, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 12:43:40 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:43:40 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470579D8.3040706-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 07:40:08PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > vmware is fine running (for instance) IE in depth 16 when the host > (linux) is in 16. It's when I try to run /Starcraft/ that I get the > message that the guest's depth (8) does not match the host's (16). But > when I go into system-config-display the depths to choose from only go > as low as "Thousands of colours" [16]. I guess my AVITRON AV-7T monitor > won't dumb down to depth 8. When I try to force the setting (vi > /etc/X11/xorg.conf) the monitor goes haywire and I have to go intot he > command line to set /etc/X11/xorg.conf back the way it was. So it is > vmware that says no to Starcraft because it can't get the host to run in > depth 8. Your monitor will do what it is told. You do need to have sections in the X config for 8 bit in order to do that. > So, what do I do? Do I choose a monitor type (in system-config-display > so I don't directly break /etc/X11/xorg.conf again) that will support > depth 8 even though it won't be the correct driver for my monitor? > > 4.5.1 Isn't that pretty old by now? I wonder if newer versions take care of this automatically. There isn't any good reason vmware couldn't convert 256 colour to 16 or 24 bit in their hardware emulation rather trivially. VMware server is free and I believe based on the same level of code as vmware workstation 5, so it would at least be newer than what you have. I still haven't found anything workstation does that server doesn't which seems odd. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 12:53:34 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:53:34 -0400 Subject: Cheap UPS (again) Message-ID: <20071005125334.GV4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Dell is yet again offering their (well it is actually an APC) SmartUPS 1500 at the silly price of $199 (including shipping). Their normal price is $699 (not including shipping) which is of course about $200 to $300 more than any sane company charges for it, but at the same time $199 is about $200 less than any sane company charges too (not accounting for shipping). It works with serial or USB using apcupsd and is very simple to setup. If you are in need of a workout, just move it around a bit. So in other words if you are considering getting a UPS and want the best UPS you can run on a 110V 15A outlet, then this is the one to get. I already got one last time they had this offer, and my dad got one the time before that. I know someone mentioned not having a UPS and really having to get around to getting one in the last couple of days, so now there is no good excuse left. I suppose the kingston 4GB USB key for $34 is not a bad deal either for that matter. http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/days_of_deals?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 13:12:13 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:12:13 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071005124340.GU4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Your monitor will do what it is told. It will do what it's told or /try/ what it's told? > You do need to have sections in > the X config for 8 bit in order to do that. > Shouldn't what I've added take care of that?: EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "Monitor0" DefaultDepth 16 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 16 Modes "800x600" "720x400" "640x480" "640x400" "640x350" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 8 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection BTW, when I change the above DefaultDepth to 8, my monitor can't handle it - it looks as if linux is trying different modes then finally drops me to command line. Then I just go into /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reset DefaultDepth to 16 and everything goes back to normal. Is it possible that my monitor simply can't dumb down to depth 8? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 13:56:31 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:56:31 -0400 Subject: Cheap UPS (again) In-Reply-To: <20071005125334.GV4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005125334.GV4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7ac602420710050656y3f1a2cbevc17a465d958d13b8@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I know someone mentioned not having a UPS and really > having to get around to getting one in the last couple of days, so now > there is no good excuse left. Thanks Lennart, that was me. It's on its way now. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:00:22 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:00:22 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <200710050648.15076.fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050648.15076.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <408ae1640710050700t708cee8dl8b6bda91ec646cea@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On Thursday 04 October 2007 22:38:30 Interlug Lists wrote: > > > Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are > > coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon > > Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source > > festivities. > > Does anyone know if there might be wireless (or wired) Internet access? I had > been planning to come but was just told that I should be "available" on the > 13th for work. Internet access is sponsored by Silicon Mechanics. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:02:54 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:02:54 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <200710050650.08882.fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On Thursday 04 October 2007 22:38:30 Interlug Lists wrote: > > > Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are > > coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon > > Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source > > festivities. > > Your list of sponsors has disappeared from the site. You mean the right sidebar with all of the sponsor logos and links? Looks good from here. If you still have trouble with it please send me details. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 13:58:23 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:58:23 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4706382D.2070102-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <470642FF.3000107@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > BTW, when I change the above DefaultDepth to 8, my monitor can't > handle it - it looks as if linux is trying different modes then > finally drops me to command line. Then I just go into > /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reset DefaultDepth to 16 and everything goes > back to normal. Is it possible that my monitor simply can't dumb down > to depth 8? Maybe I don't have the right modes listed for Depth 8: EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 8 Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" EndSubSection I just grabbed those modes off the Internet somewhere (not too scientific). I tried other lower modes ("1024x768" "800x600" "640x480") buthtey didn't work either. 1. I enter those modes into /etc/X11/xorg.conf (since depth 8 is not even offered inthe GUI system-config-display), and set DefaultDepth to 8, and Enter :wq! to write and quit. 2. I hit Ctrl+Alt+Backspace 3. I can see X trying various modes (the logon prompt (looking good) even flashes on the screen between each mode it tries). One time I even saw a monitor error flash onscreen something like "Out of Range". 4. I finally have to hit Ctrl+Alt+F3 to drop into command line. 5. As root, I go in and edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf, reset DefaultDepth to 16. 6. shutdown -r now reboots the PC and I'm back into linu (depth 16). Maybe I have the modes wrong beside 'Modes' in 'Depth 8'. So, what are the modes I can list there? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:06:07 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:06:07 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470642FF.3000107-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4703DCC2.7080704@chrisaitken.net> <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <470642FF.3000107@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <470644CF.80604@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > >> BTW, when I change the above DefaultDepth to 8, my monitor can't >> handle it - it looks as if linux is trying different modes then >> finally drops me to command line. Then I just go into >> /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reset DefaultDepth to 16 and everything goes >> back to normal. Is it possible that my monitor simply can't dumb down >> to depth 8? > Maybe I don't have the right modes listed for Depth 8: > > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 8 > Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" > EndSubSection > > I just grabbed those modes off the Internet somewhere (not too > scientific). I tried other lower modes ("1024x768" "800x600" > "640x480") buthtey didn't work either. > > 1. I enter those modes into /etc/X11/xorg.conf (since depth 8 is not > even offered inthe GUI system-config-display), and set DefaultDepth > to 8, and Enter :wq! to write and quit. > 2. I hit Ctrl+Alt+Backspace > 3. I can see X trying various modes (the logon prompt (looking good) > even flashes on the screen between each mode it tries). One time I > even saw a monitor error flash onscreen something like "Out of Range". I forgot a step here: 3 (a). If I let linux try all the modes, I get the following message: The display server has been shut down about 6 times in the last 90 seconds. It is likely that something bad is going on. Waiting for 2 minutes before trying again on display :0 > 4. I finally have to hit Ctrl+Alt+F3 to drop into command line. > 5. As root, I go in and edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf, reset DefaultDepth to > 16. > 6. shutdown -r now reboots the PC and I'm back into linu (depth 16). > > Maybe I have the modes wrong beside 'Modes' in 'Depth 8'. So, what are > the modes I can list there? > > Chris > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:34:38 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:34:38 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <4706382D.2070102-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071005143438.GW4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 09:12:13AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Shouldn't what I've added take care of that?: > > EndSection > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > Monitor "Monitor0" > DefaultDepth 16 > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 24 > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 16 > Modes "800x600" "720x400" "640x480" "640x400" "640x350" > EndSubSection > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 8 > Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > BTW, when I change the above DefaultDepth to 8, my monitor can't handle > it - it looks as if linux is trying different modes then finally drops > me to command line. Then I just go into /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reset > DefaultDepth to 16 and everything goes back to normal. Is it possible > that my monitor simply can't dumb down to depth 8? What resolution is your monitor? You added 1024x768 to 8bit, but only 800x600 to 16 bit? What if you made both only do 800x600 and 640x480? What resolution does your monitor do natively? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:35:57 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:35:57 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470644CF.80604-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <470642FF.3000107@chrisaitken.net> <470644CF.80604@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071005143556.GX4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:06:07AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I forgot a step here: > 3 (a). If I let linux try all the modes, I get the following message: > The display server has been shut down about 6 times in the last 90 > seconds. It is likely that something bad is going on. Waiting for 2 > minutes before trying again on display :0 You probably speficied a mode it doesn't know (1280x800 is NOT a standard mode so not all X servers can do it). If you have something invalid, then X won't start. The log in /var/log/X...log should have some explanation of why it wouldn't start. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:54:39 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:54:39 -0400 Subject: a not-so-nice use of Linux Message-ID: <4706502F.6080408@telly.org> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/100407-ebay-phishers-linux.html - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 14:59:58 2007 From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:59:58 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Opportunity Message-ID: My employer is looking for a PHP developer to help us with a custom, in-house Warehouse Management System. Here's the posting: Onsite in Brampton, full-time contract We are are looking for a full time junior PHP developer who is up to the challenge of working in the fast-paced logistics industry. Our focus is retail supply chain distribution. You will be working with a dynamic group of people on a diverse set of projects, for a diverse set of clients. Requirements: * Strong PHP 5 Skills * Great communication and documentation skills * Works well in a team environment * Able to follow established coding standards * Strong MySQL database skills * Working knowledge of linux Useful: * Zend Certified Engineer * MySQL Core Certification * Experience working with PHP 5 and mySQL * Previous logistics experience Please send your resume in PDF, MS Word or Open Office to Human_Resources-PYJcXEn6ByIWbn5ELLBuDkEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 15:05:48 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:05:48 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Opportunity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Vince Fry wrote: > * Able to follow established coding standards Is it just me, or is it sad commentary on the computer industry that someone found it necessary to put that in a job description? Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 15:49:29 2007 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 11:49:29 -0400 Subject: a not-so-nice use of Linux In-Reply-To: <4706502F.6080408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4706502F.6080408@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071005114929.c0eyuafvw48s0c8s@webmail.easyhosting.com> Quoting Evan Leibovitch : > http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/100407-ebay-phishers-linux.html I wouldn't want to dismiss it and give someone a false sense of security, but this jumped out at me from the article.... "speaking at a Microsoft-sponsored security symposium" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 16:11:30 2007 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:11:30 -0400 Subject: Ardour workshop @ linuxcaffe with Benny Powers Message-ID: <20071005161130.GC8980@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> This Sunday (yes, Thanksgiving Sunday) The incomparable Ben Powers will be setting up Ardour (THE linux-based Digital Audio Workstation; ardour.org) and explaining / demonstrating how you too can have a professional-grade, multi-track audio recording and post-production set-up. Ben is quite adept at this, is a delightful speaker and he's the guy who is working on the Ardour user manual, so he knows his stuff. The workshop is free, but we will be "passing the hat" as a token of our apreciation. There will be live music performances, recorded and mixed down, the usual array of coffee and snacks so be there, or be square. It goes from 2pm to 5pm, so you can still make it home in time for turkey. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 16:36:03 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:36:03 -0400 Subject: External Backup Drive: eSata vs. USB Message-ID: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7@mx.google.com> Just ran into a snag with the plan to backup to an external drive: the old MoBo on my dev/secondary server only has USB1.1 ports (it's an old MSI K7T266 Pro2, but hey it did the job for years). So now the question is: do I grab a PCI SATA board (such as the ByteCC that Canada computers has on for $17), or grab a PCI USB2.0 adapter? -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 16:40:10 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:40:10 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Opportunity In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01e001c8076e$659241a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Just be thankful he didn't say "good personal hygiene a must" > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Petersen > Sent: October 5, 2007 11:06 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: PHP Developer Opportunity > > On 10/5/07, Vince Fry wrote: > > * Able to follow established coding standards > > Is it just me, or is it sad commentary on the computer industry that > someone found it necessary to put that in a job description? > > Ian > > -- > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 16:45:07 2007 From: jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org (jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:45:07 -0400 Subject: OT: weird ads on a linux site Message-ID: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> Just want to share this, I was reading articles in the site listed below.. its like your marketing and selling apples and yet you don't eat apples http://www.linux-mag.com/ :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may contain sensitive and private proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. FXDirectDealer, LLC reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them. Unless otherwise stated, any pricing information given in this message is indicative only, is subject to change and does not constitute an offer to deal at any price quoted. Any reference to the terms of executed transactions should be treated as preliminary only and subject to our formal confirmation. FXDirectDealer, LLC is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account activity contained in this communication. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 17:31:35 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:31:35 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071005143438.GW4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47041166.8050309@chrisaitken.net> <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <20071005143438.GW4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <470674F7.1090203@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > What resolution is your monitor? You added 1024x768 to 8bit, but only > 800x600 to 16 bit? What if you made both only do 800x600 and 640x480? > > What resolution does your monitor do natively? > *Specs Group* :: General *Display Type* Display / CRT *Width* 16.1 in *Depth* 16 in *Height* 17.3 in *Weight* 39 lbs *Enclosure Color* White *Specs Group* :: Display *Diagonal Size* 17" *Viewable Size* 16" *Dot Pitch / Pixel Pitch* 0.25 mm *Max Resolution* 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz *Max Sync Rate (V x H)* 120 Hz x 70 kHz *Factory Preset Resolution Modes* * 640 x 480 / 85 Hz * 800 x 600 / 85 Hz * 1024 x 768 / 85 Hz * 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 17:42:56 2007 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:42:56 -0400 Subject: External Backup Drive: eSata vs. USB In-Reply-To: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <470677A0.7080102@ve3syb.ca> Kareem Shehata wrote: > Just ran into a snag with the plan to backup to an external drive: the old > MoBo on my dev/secondary server only has USB1.1 ports (it's an old MSI > K7T266 Pro2, but hey it did the job for years). So now the question is: do > I grab a PCI SATA board (such as the ByteCC that Canada computers has on for > $17), or grab a PCI USB2.0 adapter? With all the devices being connected to a computer via USB these days, I would think the USB2.0 adapter would be more generally useful for you. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 17:52:00 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:52:00 -0400 Subject: OT: weird ads on a linux site In-Reply-To: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5-wQuPDRWRT+X2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> Message-ID: <4706798e.0269400a.2c4d.5503@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org > Sent: Friday 05 October 2007 12:45 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: OT: weird ads on a linux site > > Just want to share this, I was reading articles in the site > listed below.. its like your marketing and selling apples and > yet you don't eat apples > > http://www.linux-mag.com/ > > :) I've noticed this before. It's MS trying to market to the Linux crowd, and they'll pay to get in anywhere that they're competitors have space. I don't blame Linux Magazine for taking their money - heck it makes sense in many ways. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 17:53:59 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:53:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5-wQuPDRWRT+X2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> Message-ID: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have any value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on every single email, but I've never heard of them actually being used anywhere for anything. So far as I can tell it's just more brainwashing from lawyers. -kms > -----Original Message----- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------ > This message and any files transmitted with it are > confidential and intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may contain > sensitive and private proprietary or legally privileged > information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or > lost by any mistransmission. If you are not the intended > recipient, please immediately delete it and all copies of it > from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify > the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, > disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message > if you are not the intended recipient. > FXDirectDealer, LLC reserves the right to monitor all e-mail > communications through its networks. Any views expressed in > this message are those of the individual sender, except where > the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to > state them. > > Unless otherwise stated, any pricing information given in > this message is indicative only, is subject to change and > does not constitute an offer to deal at any price quoted. Any > reference to the terms of executed transactions should be > treated as preliminary only and subject to our formal > confirmation. FXDirectDealer, LLC is not responsible for any > recommendation, solicitation, offer or agreement or any > information about any transaction, customer account or > account activity contained in this communication. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:05:30 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:05:30 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <47067CEA.4020007@dinamis.com> Kareem Shehata wrote: > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have any > value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on every single > email, but I've never heard of them actually being used anywhere for > anything. So far as I can tell it's just more brainwashing from lawyers. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:06:25 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:06:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071005140625.1eca7cda@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Kareem Shehata wrote: > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have any > value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on every single > email, but I've never heard of them actually being used anywhere for > anything. So far as I can tell it's just more brainwashing from lawyers. Just don't read it, then you're covered. Sort of like speed limit signs. IANALBITTAGWSHWAL. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "I love this planet. I've got wealth, fame, and access to the depths of sleaze that those things bring." -Bender -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:07:17 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:07:17 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <20071005143556.GX4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <470642FF.3000107@chrisaitken.net> <470644CF.80604@chrisaitken.net> <20071005143556.GX4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47067D55.8060302@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:06:07AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I forgot a step here: >> 3 (a). If I let linux try all the modes, I get the following message: >> The display server has been shut down about 6 times in the last 90 >> seconds. It is likely that something bad is going on. Waiting for 2 >> minutes before trying again on display :0 >> > > You probably speficied a mode it doesn't know (1280x800 is NOT a > standard mode so not all X servers can do it). I added the standard modes for this monitor (from specs off the Internet) and tried again. No luck. I got the same results (logon screen flashing onscreen but not persisting, several modes being tried, the "display srvr has shut down around six times" message, and I drop down to command line and reset DefaultDepth to 16, then I'm back where I started). The following is the /etc/X11/xorg.conf I tried: Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "Monitor0" DefaultDepth 8 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 16 Modes "800x600" "720x400" "640x480" "640x400" "640x350" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 8 Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection > If you have something > invalid, then X won't start. I don't think I have anything invalid now but I'm still getting the undesired result... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:23:36 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:23:36 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470674F7.1090203-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071003200711.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <20071005143438.GW4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470674F7.1090203@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/5/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > > > > > > Specs Group :: General > Display Type Display / CRT > Width 16.1 in > Depth 16 in > Height 17.3 in > Weight 39 lbs > Enclosure Color White > Specs Group :: Display > Diagonal Size 17" > Viewable Size 16" > Dot Pitch / Pixel Pitch 0.25 mm > Max Resolution 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz > Max Sync Rate (V x H) 120 Hz x 70 kHz > Factory Preset Resolution Modes > > 640 x 480 / 85 Hz > 800 x 600 / 85 Hz > 1024 x 768 / 85 Hz > 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz > > Hmmmm it's possible that for whatever reason the refresh rate it's attempting for the low 8-bit resolutions is (ironically) out of the range of what the monitor can do. Here's what we can try in order to manually remedy the problem (hopefully). First, save a backup copy of your current xorg.conf, just in case I'm totally off base. In your xorg.conf file, find the "Monitor" section. Put in the modeline from the example below. It's a bit of magic in terms of what the numbers mean, but it's basically running 640x480 at 60hz which is something most monitors should be able to do. This is a lower refresh than the 85 in the spec sheet you put above. But it could be that for whatever reason that's giving you sync problems. I got that magic modeline using a web utility: http://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl If you see any other modeline settings, delete them. We want to isolate the problem. The next thing we want to add is a command to make X ignore the DDC value. The DDC is basically a "capabilities" advertisement that the monitor tells X so that X has a set of "good" resolutions it can pick from that are appropriate.?We want to ignore the monitor's advertised resolutions. Section "Monitor" .... blah blah blah .... Modeline "640x480 at 60" 24.11 640 672 760 792 480 490 495 505 Option "DDC" "false" EndSection Then in the Screen section, pick this 640x480 mode. Section "Screen" .... blah .... SubSection "Display" .... Modes "640x480 at 60" .... EndSubSection EndSection Try that and see what happens. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:34:26 2007 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:34:26 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Oct 25 & 26 - Open Source Symposium at Seneca] Message-ID: <470683B2.3000909@buynet.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've been asked to forward this message re this month's FOSS Symposium to be held at Seneca @ YorkU on Oct 25 and 26. Not only does Seneca organize and host this major community and industry event, it has or years been a great supporter of FOSS and Linux in it's academic programming and course ware, plus hosting the bi-monthly NewTLUG meeting. - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Oct 25 & 26 - Open Source Symposium at Seneca Hello there, If you have not already registered for the upcoming Open Source Symposium on Oct 25 and 26 here at Seneca, now is a great chance... Register now for a chance to win an iPod Nano! All paid registrations (except registrations for employees of Seneca College and sponsoring organizations) received by 11:59 pm, Monday, October 8 2007 will be entered into a draw for an iPod Nano. The draw will be conducted on October 26 at the Symposium. http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2007/ >We are expecting about 400 attendees and have an >amazing lineup of speakers including speakers from Mozilla, >Facebook, Red Hat, OpenOffice, Nokia, IBM, SAP's California >Reasearch lab, to name just a few. > >Come and 'rub shoulders' with the 'who's who' of Open Source, >and see how Seneca is emerging as one of the leaders in >the Open Source community. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFHBoOyU+pQaeEFGGARAlnnAJMHhA6cRq2YYKcy260fIhP2XEudAJ9GdxjK nDgyJu2Pxn/VgqC5YiXiZQ== =D1Xo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:42:57 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:42:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Toronto Small Business Forum Message-ID: <470685B1.1090804@telly.org> I am posting this mainly because I have seen a number of posts from people looking to start or grow an open source consulting business. It's a no-charge one-day event, Tuesday at the Eaton Centre Marriott. http://www.torontobusinessforum.ca - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:48:14 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:48:14 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Opportunity In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071005184814.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:05:48AM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/5/07, Vince Fry wrote: > > * Able to follow established coding standards > > Is it just me, or is it sad commentary on the computer industry that > someone found it necessary to put that in a job description? Actually if they mean follow the established coding standards of the company, then it does make sense. Some people always insist on using their own coding style, and just can't seem to wrap their heads around using a common coding style and methodology with their peers. That makes it very difficult to work together on things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 18:56:07 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:56:07 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Opportunity In-Reply-To: <20071005184814.GY4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710050805r74d6a9f1w52d57634e4f594e0@mail.gmail.com> <20071005184814.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7ac602420710051156k2c62e30fmb34692d831124d26@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Actually if they mean follow the established coding standards of the > company, then it does make sense. Some people always insist on using > their own coding style, and just can't seem to wrap their heads around > using a common coding style and methodology with their peers. That > makes it very difficult to work together on things. I guess that was sort of my point. I would have thought that refusal to abide by a company-issued coding standard would be a firing offense. (There are exceptions, of course, but, generally, they should be thoroughly supported by rational arguments for why the coding standard shouldn't apply to the exceptional case.) The fact that a job posting needs to stipulate that only those people with the ability to adhere to company policy will be considered seems sadly redundant. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:07:28 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:07:28 -0400 Subject: External Backup Drive: eSata vs. USB In-Reply-To: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20071005190728.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:36:03PM -0400, Kareem Shehata wrote: > Just ran into a snag with the plan to backup to an external drive: the old > MoBo on my dev/secondary server only has USB1.1 ports (it's an old MSI > K7T266 Pro2, but hey it did the job for years). So now the question is: do > I grab a PCI SATA board (such as the ByteCC that Canada computers has on for > $17), or grab a PCI USB2.0 adapter? USB 2.0 will give you a transfer rate for your backup of about 30MB/s maybe 35 in my experience. I have seen many SATA drives doing 60 to 70MB/s so using eSATA should give you twice the transfer speed in most cases. On the other hand ALL systems support hotswap USB so as long as you unmount first you can remove the drive. SATA supports hotswap, but many OSs don't support it yet. Support for hot plugging of SATA is rather new in linux, and only works on some controllers so far, so your results may vary. A USB 2.0 PCI card is also about $20, while a SATA card is probably $40. The card you found is probably Sil3112a based, which is supported in linux (although it dislikes some drives), and does support hotplug on recent kernels apparently. I haven't tried sata hotplug on linux so I am not sure what steps are required when doing it if any. The 3112 is a rather old design and doesn't do command queueing or anything else newer sata adds. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:09:16 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:09:16 -0400 Subject: starcraft In-Reply-To: <470674F7.1090203-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071004134434.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4704FDE3.8030802@chrisaitken.net> <20071004151503.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47050FBD.7090905@chrisaitken.net> <20071004172934.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470579D8.3040706@chrisaitken.net> <20071005124340.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4706382D.2070102@chrisaitken.net> <20071005143438.GW4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470674F7.1090203@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071005190916.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 01:31:35PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > *Specs Group* :: General > *Display Type* Display / CRT > *Width* 16.1 in > *Depth* 16 in > *Height* 17.3 in > *Weight* 39 lbs > *Enclosure Color* White > *Specs Group* :: Display > *Diagonal Size* 17" > *Viewable Size* 16" > *Dot Pitch / Pixel Pitch* 0.25 mm > *Max Resolution* 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz > *Max Sync Rate (V x H)* 120 Hz x 70 kHz > *Factory Preset Resolution Modes* > > * 640 x 480 / 85 Hz > * 800 x 600 / 85 Hz > * 1024 x 768 / 85 Hz > * 1280 x 1024 / 60 Hz Could you include the X log file from when it fails to start in 8 bit mode? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:13:17 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:13:17 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <20071005140625.1eca7cda-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> <20071005140625.1eca7cda@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071005191317.GB4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 02:06:25PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > Just don't read it, then you're covered. Sort of like speed limit signs. So if the message shows on my screen and the disclaimer is on the next page, then I don't see it. Makes sense to me. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:46:34 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:46:34 -0400 Subject: External Backup Drive: eSata vs. USB In-Reply-To: <20071005190728.GZ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7@mx.google.com> <20071005190728.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280710051246v25764457y1db9c79b183c442a@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:36:03PM -0400, Kareem Shehata wrote: > > So now the question is: do > > I grab a PCI SATA board (such as the ByteCC that Canada computers has on for > > $17), or grab a PCI USB2.0 adapter? > > The card you found is probably Sil3112a based, which is supported in > linux (although it dislikes some drives), and does support hotplug on > recent kernels apparently. I haven't tried sata hotplug on linux so I > am not sure what steps are required when doing it if any. The 3112 is a > rather old design and doesn't do command queueing or anything else newer > sata adds. This is the same card (and the same vendor!) that I bought. As Lennart so succintly puts it, "it dislikes some drives." I think a lot of people are using it without problems, but look at my posts about SATA issues to see why you might not want to buy a card with that particular chipset. While USB is probably slower than eSATA, I'd still second the vote for USB: if it's a machine that you use for testing, you're going to want reasonable USB speeds out of it for other things as well. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cdavidson-LdRZAy6QGm4lk5EcyZIkJQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:49:48 2007 From: cdavidson-LdRZAy6QGm4lk5EcyZIkJQ at public.gmane.org (Colin Davidson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:49:48 -0400 Subject: Next TLUG meeting. Message-ID: <20071005194910.BC27822C804E@altsoftware.com> Hi All, I am a somewhat experience Linux user (I am currently between Gentoo installs, as it were, and have on occasion used kgdb) and have been thinking about attending a TLUG meeting for a while. I have a couple of questions about the next meeting. From the website, it looks like this is the AGM. Is that one that a newcomer would really want to attend? And if so, where is it? I've been searching the site for a while now and can't find any indication (this may be a PEBCAK error, but if it's there, I can't find the information). Thanks, Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:57:17 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:57:17 -0400 Subject: Next TLUG meeting. In-Reply-To: <20071005194910.BC27822C804E-LdRZAy6QGm4lk5EcyZIkJQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005194910.BC27822C804E@altsoftware.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710051257v1714952cy9cf9adb385e28101@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Colin Davidson wrote: > From the website, it looks like this is the AGM. Is > that one that a newcomer would really want to attend? It so happens that my first meeting was last years' AGM. The AGM part of last years' AGM was just a few minutes at the start where the paying members elected a new board. The only confusing thing was that I didn't bring $20 to join the LUG and it wasn't exactly clear that I didn't have join to attend the meetings. That's all to say that you may as well show up 'cause the AGM won't take long, unless there's a board member here who knows otherwise. > And if so, where is it? It's almost always in room 240-something in the Galbraith building at the UofT. Unfortunately, I don't know how to tell someone else how to get there--I just recognize it when I get there. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 20:01:56 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:01:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <47069834.2000509@rogers.com> Kareem Shehata wrote: > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have any > value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on every single > email, but I've never heard of them actually being used anywhere for > anything. So far as I can tell it's just more brainwashing from lawyers. > > My understanding is that since you've got no way to read that disclaimer, before reading the message, they're nonsense, just as the "shrink wrap" licenses, that claim you're bound by them as soon as you open the shrink wrap, even though you cannot read the license before opening the package. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cdavidson-LdRZAy6QGm4lk5EcyZIkJQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 20:04:09 2007 From: cdavidson-LdRZAy6QGm4lk5EcyZIkJQ at public.gmane.org (Colin Davidson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:04:09 -0400 Subject: Next TLUG meeting. In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710051257v1714952cy9cf9adb385e28101-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7ac602420710051257v1714952cy9cf9adb385e28101@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071005200331.B967522C8050@altsoftware.com> Ian, Thanks for the info. Now checking my calander, I realize I can't make it. *Sigh*. Same thing happened last month. Guess I'll shoot for November. Colin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ian Petersen Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 3:57 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Next TLUG meeting. On 10/5/07, Colin Davidson wrote: > From the website, it looks like this is the AGM. Is > that one that a newcomer would really want to attend? It so happens that my first meeting was last years' AGM. The AGM part of last years' AGM was just a few minutes at the start where the paying members elected a new board. The only confusing thing was that I didn't bring $20 to join the LUG and it wasn't exactly clear that I didn't have join to attend the meetings. That's all to say that you may as well show up 'cause the AGM won't take long, unless there's a board member here who knows otherwise. > And if so, where is it? It's almost always in room 240-something in the Galbraith building at the UofT. Unfortunately, I don't know how to tell someone else how to get there--I just recognize it when I get there. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 20:42:06 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:42:06 -0400 Subject: External Backup Drive: eSata vs. USB In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710051246v25764457y1db9c79b183c442a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <470667c1.0f1f400a.3827.72e7@mx.google.com> <20071005190728.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280710051246v25764457y1db9c79b183c442a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071005204206.GC4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 03:46:34PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > This is the same card (and the same vendor!) that I bought. As > Lennart so succintly puts it, "it dislikes some drives." I think a > lot of people are using it without problems, but look at my posts > about SATA issues to see why you might not want to buy a card with > that particular chipset. > > While USB is probably slower than eSATA, I'd still second the vote for > USB: if it's a machine that you use for testing, you're going to want > reasonable USB speeds out of it for other things as well. For newer machines (those with PCIe slots) there are pretty cheap JMicron based SATA cards with either internal or external SATA ports, which seem to be supported by linux (haven't tried one yet myself though). The jmicron is AHCI compliant which is considered the best way to do SATA since it is an open standard now supported by most chipset makers (all new intel chips use it, as does nvidia, and many others). Unfortunately other PCI cards like the Promise TX2300 may not work any better than the Sil3112a. Not sure. I have a promise 20378 based card which works quite well, but the TX2300 is based on the 20771 I believe, which I can't find much info on. It is listed as supported in sata_promise though so that may mean it is actually a decent choice, although the ports are internal and you would have to use an adapter bracket to get an external port. On the other hand the linux driver support currently lists the promise driver as NOT supporting hotplug, while listing the sil as supporting hotplug, so that part sucks for the promise cards. The sil24 cards (sil3124 based) are listed as very well supported cards. Not sure who makes one though. I guess something like this: http://www.extreme-pc.ca/showproduct.asp?productid=370930 http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-4-X-INTERNAL-SATA-II-PORT-PCI-X-RAID-CARD-W-SIL3124_W0QQitemZ170154060511QQihZ007QQcategoryZ39968QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=15850BD9006&vpn=SD-SATA2-2E2I&manufacture=Syba The first one looks pretty nice actually. If I was to buy an sata card right now that one would probably be it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 23:41:35 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 19:41:35 -0400 Subject: Next TLUG meeting. In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710051257v1714952cy9cf9adb385e28101-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005194910.BC27822C804E@altsoftware.com> <7ac602420710051257v1714952cy9cf9adb385e28101@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/07, Ian Petersen wrote: > That's all to say that you may as well show up 'cause the AGM won't > take long, unless there's a board member here who knows otherwise. I wouldn't expect otherwise... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 23:48:27 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 19:48:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/07, Kareem Shehata wrote: > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have any > value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on every single > email, but I've never heard of them actually being used anywhere for > anything. So far as I can tell it's just more brainwashing from lawyers. >From what I hear, when peoples' organizations are so idiotic as to force posting such disclaimers on fora that are known to be published publicly, this actually undermines the claim that the legal disclaimer seems to make. That is, if you post disclaimers in cases that are *obviously invalid*, this undermines the claim that the disclaimer can retain *ANY* validity, *ANYWHERE.* -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 23:54:04 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 19:54:04 -0400 Subject: a not-so-nice use of Linux In-Reply-To: <4706502F.6080408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4706502F.6080408@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/5/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/100407-ebay-phishers-linux.html I spent much of this week at an event on this topic that *wasn't* "sponsored by Microsoft," and nothing at all of this sort came up. http://www.antiphishing.org/events/2007_generalMeeting.html The exploits that seem to lead to most of the relevant problems seem to result exclusively from sets of "zombied" Windows boxes that have been taken over by malware. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 23:56:51 2007 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 19:56:51 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710051956.52155.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> On Friday 05 October 2007 10:02:54 Interlug Lists wrote: > On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > On Thursday 04 October 2007 22:38:30 Interlug Lists wrote: > > > Ontario Linux Fest is just over a week away, and the final pieces are > > > coming together. We'll be at The Toronto Congress Centre, 650 Dixon > > > Road, on Saturday the 13th of October for a full day of Open Source > > > festivities. > > > > Your list of sponsors has disappeared from the site. That's what I mean. On http://onlinux.ca/ right side column titled sponsors ... the only visible sponsor is KWLUG, others are commented out, see below for example: Google, RIM, IBM, etc. are all commented out ... odd. I saw that from work today and from home. -- Fraser Campbell Georgetown, Ontario, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 00:06:56 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: weird ads on a linux site In-Reply-To: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5-wQuPDRWRT+X2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org wrote: > Just want to share this, I was reading articles in the site listed > below.. its like your marketing and selling apples and yet you don't eat > apples > > http://www.linux-mag.com/ This is has been a source of dispute for some time. Many in the community don't like MS adds on Linux sites. The site owners generally make the point that turning down legitimate advertising money would be silly. I tend to accept this position and think of it as Microsoft funding the Linux sites for us :) Chances are anyone visiting a Linux site is already well acquainted with MS offerings so I don't think it is a big problem from the POV of Linux acceptance. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 00:12:27 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:12:27 -0400 Subject: OT: weird ads on a linux site In-Reply-To: References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280710051712k193b30fcw518295051d5d4518@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Just want to share this, I was reading articles in the site listed > > below.. its like your marketing and selling apples and yet you don't eat > > apples > > > > http://www.linux-mag.com/ > > This is has been a source of dispute for some time. Many in the community > don't like MS adds on Linux sites. The site owners generally make the > point that turning down legitimate advertising money would be silly. I > tend to accept this position and think of it as Microsoft funding the > Linux sites for us :) I'm inclined to agree: it would be odd and not very reasonable (and expensive!) for them to turn down ads from a company that sells software. Besides, the irony of MS funding Linux sites is quite ... charming. And there's another irony to this: I followed the posted link without thinking about it, and I didn't see a single ad. It's not just me either: a lot of Linux users have ad blocking turned on. So MS pays for the site and we don't even see the ads ... Let's not get into the morality of the use of ad blockers. I sit on the fence about the morality, but I can't stand the websurfing experience _with_ ads, so from a practical point of view the blocking wins. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 00:26:29 2007 From: hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Henry de Valence) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:26:29 -0400 Subject: OT: weird ads on a linux site In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710051712k193b30fcw518295051d5d4518-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> <1f13df280710051712k193b30fcw518295051d5d4518@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710052026.30036.hdevalence@gmail.com> On October 5, 2007 08:12:27 pm Giles Orr wrote: > And there's another irony to this: I followed the posted link without > thinking about it, and I didn't see a single ad. It's not just me > either: a lot of Linux users have ad blocking turned on. So MS pays > for the site and we don't even see the ads ... Let's not get into the > morality of the use of ad blockers. I sit on the fence about the > morality, but I can't stand the websurfing experience _with_ ads, so > from a practical point of view the blocking wins. Speaking of which, it's odd.. I'm using Kubuntu 7.10, and the Konqueror AdblocK seems to have stopped working on a bunch of sites, including /. -- Harry de Valence -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 00:30:05 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:30:05 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47069834.2000509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> <47069834.2000509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200710052030.11859.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 5, 2007 04:01:56 pm James Knott wrote: > Kareem Shehata wrote: > > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have > > any value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they be on > > every single email, but I've never heard of them actually being > > used anywhere for anything. So far as I can tell it's just more > > brainwashing from lawyers. > > My understanding is that since you've got no way to read that > disclaimer, before reading the message, they're nonsense, just as the > "shrink wrap" licenses, that claim you're bound by them as soon as > you open the shrink wrap, even though you cannot read the license > before opening the package. But since someone spent time and likely created a unique message, copyright applies. And redistributing someone's copyrighted work without their consent is a clear breach of copyright. No disclaimer needed since every author retains copyright on their works by default (at least here in Canada). Of course a company may put a section in a contract assigning all copyright of your work to them--and they can read all your email anyways :( Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 00:41:41 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:41:41 -0700 Subject: Ardour workshop @ linuxcaffe with Benny Powers In-Reply-To: <20071005161130.GC8980-f3ydu6uS1R7I9rkgco+hXrUXFt3QzJ1Y@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005161130.GC8980@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <1191631301.8251.4.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 12:11 -0400, David J Patrick wrote: > This Sunday (yes, Thanksgiving Sunday) The incomparable Ben Powers will be > setting up Ardour (THE linux-based Digital Audio Workstation; ardour.org) > and explaining / demonstrating how you too can have a professional-grade, > multi-track audio recording and post-production set-up. Ben is quite adept > at this, is a delightful speaker and he's the guy who is working on the > Ardour user manual, so he knows his stuff. The workshop is free, but we > will be "passing the hat" as a token of our apreciation. > There will be live music performances, recorded and mixed down, the usual > array of coffee and snacks so be there, or be square. It goes from 2pm to > 5pm, so you can still make it home in time for turkey. man, bummed to be out of town -- this is something i would love to get some help with. btw, for those stymied by ardour, traverso (www.traverso-daw.org) is also pretty great. matt > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 01:41:00 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:41:00 -0400 Subject: Is there anything like iMovie in Linux? Message-ID: <4706E7AC.3020206@dinamis.com> Hello, I am seriously considering purchasing a MacBook for iMovie, even though I do not like Apple's hardware all that much and find them to be overpriced. Is there anything like iMovie on Linux? I have LIVES, avidemux, and Kino installed, none of which come close to iMovie in polish. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:04:45 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:04:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <47067CEA.4020007-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <47067CEA.4020007@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4706fb16.131f400a.3e6d.01de@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of CLIFFORD ILKAY > Sent: Friday 05 October 2007 14:06 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers > > Kareem Shehata wrote: > > So I have to ask, do these legal disclaimers on email actually have > > any value? I've seen so many companies *insist* that they > be on every > > single email, but I've never heard of them actually being used > > anywhere for anything. So far as I can tell it's just more > brainwashing from lawyers. > > > Beautiful! I'll have to hang on to these to show future clients who insist on them. My favorite so far: Disclaimer: By sending an email to ANY of my addresses you are agreeing that: 1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient" 2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it lends itself to. In particular, I may quote it on usenet. 3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company. 4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that may be included on your message. -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:06:05 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:06:05 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <200710051956.52155.fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0@mail.gmail.com> <200710051956.52155.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > That's what I mean. On http://onlinux.ca/ right side column titled > sponsors ... the only visible sponsor is KWLUG, others are commented out, see > below for example: > > > > Google, RIM, IBM, etc. are all commented out ... odd. > > I saw that from work today and from home. How strange. I'm not seeing that at all, and I've been compulsively refreshing all day. All of the sponsors appear as expected here. OS and Browser, and version? Is anybody else seeing the same symptom? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:29:41 2007 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter P.) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 03:29:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Non blocking RBL with exim References: Message-ID: Kihara Muriithi writes: > I wonder if anyone has pointer on a way of using the rbl database to > just score the mail, and then allow them through. It would then be > possible to let SpamAssassin act on them in a more flexible manner. > Any pointer will be highly appreciated. rbls are evil. Please take a look at graylisting. Peter P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:50:39 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Email Legal Disclaimers In-Reply-To: References: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF2813056D2BC5@MX01.fxdd.com> <47067a04.0f2b400a.6e6e.ffff8d6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Christopher Browne wrote: > That is, if you post disclaimers in cases that are *obviously > invalid*, this undermines the claim that the disclaimer can retain > *ANY* validity, *ANYWHERE.* That's an interesting point. Back home in Australia there was an issue with stores leaving "Floor is wet and slippery" signs up all of the time just in case the floor became wet and slippery. The courts took the position that if the signs were up all of the time they would be ignored by members of the public and therefore they would cease to have any value as a warning device. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 09:06:36 2007 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:06:36 +0300 Subject: Non blocking RBL with exim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I do agree, and this is why I am trying to avoid using them alone to decide a fate of a mail. What I am looking at is to use the rbl to insert a header on suspicious mail. This way, by the time the mail reaches SpamAssassin, it will be scored higher immediately if it has a header indicating that the domain of origin is on rbls. I have somehow figured how to insert the header using exim. I am planning to use acl_check_rcpt and instead of using the deny verb on rbl test, I will be using warn and then sticking a header on that mail. Something similar to this; warn message = X-Warning: $sender_host_address is \ in a black list at $dnslist_domain log_message = found in $dnslist_domain dnslists = black.list.example Now, what I am looking at is to score this email 3 points before any further processing by spamassassin. Peter, I do get you, and there is a lot of political debate I have come across on the net on this topic. rbl have sometime abused their power, but they also have some information worth using when evaluating mails legitimacy. Automatically disregarding them in my experience have ended up allowing spam through the MX servers. What I am suggesting above is to leverage the rbl advantages without suffering from these political issues. I am actually running greylisting in fact. However I think greylisting cater for a different purpose. May of less fight against ratware which are not rfc compliant. However over time these ratware have fixed this problem. When fighting spam from well designed smtp servers, I believe checking the content and the domain of the origin is the only information you can leverage. The former is fulfilled by spamassissin and the later by rbl. Regards William On 06/10/2007, Peter P. wrote: > Kihara Muriithi writes: > > > I wonder if anyone has pointer on a way of using the rbl database to > > just score the mail, and then allow them through. It would then be > > possible to let SpamAssassin act on them in a more flexible manner. > > Any pointer will be highly appreciated. > > rbls are evil. Please take a look at graylisting. > > Peter P. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 11:06:29 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:06:29 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0@mail.gmail.com> <200710051956.52155.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47076C35.7000200@rogers.com> Interlug Lists wrote: > On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > >> That's what I mean. On http://onlinux.ca/ right side column titled >> sponsors ... the only visible sponsor is KWLUG, others are commented out, see >> below for example: >> >> >> >> Google, RIM, IBM, etc. are all commented out ... odd. >> >> I saw that from work today and from home. >> > > How strange. I'm not seeing that at all, and I've been compulsively > refreshing all day. All of the sponsors appear as expected here. > > OS and Browser, and version? > > Is anybody else seeing the same symptom? > I checked yesterday and it looked fine to me. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 12:57:19 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Follow-up on last Thursday's Ontario Linux Fest Meeting. Message-ID: <84155.91155.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Just to follow-up on the OLF meeting last Thursday. Here are the tasks that need attention: - Who will be on-site booth lead (NOT me, I have a family commitment I can not get out of that day). At the meeting Seneca Cunningham noted she had other commitments at the show, so she doubted that she would be able to act as lead. - Finalize booth staffing, we need two people who can staff the booth more-or-less all day (i.e. the day minus bathroom/lunch breaks). - Finalize handouts (likely just recycle what we used at IT360). - Make sure table cover gets to show (just recycle what we used at IT360). - Set dress code (business casual would be my vote). - Update wiki (which I did some work on yesterday, make sure the NewTLUG info is up to date, etc...). Thoughts? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 13:06:30 2007 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:06:30 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on last Thursday's Ontario Linux Fest Meeting. In-Reply-To: <84155.91155.qm-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <84155.91155.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47078856.70809@netdirect.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > - Make sure table cover gets to show (just recycle > what > we used at IT360). > One thing I should mention. The table comes with a skirt. If it's like other shows it will have a cloth or plastic cover on it so unless you have something special to cover the table with you can leave it at home. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 13:30:46 2007 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:30:46 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <47076C35.7000200-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710050650.08882.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710050702k4d7eb879m2c3270d2c8ac61b0@mail.gmail.com> <200710051956.52155.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6@mail.gmail.com> <47076C35.7000200@rogers.com> Message-ID: <47078E06.6040702@netdirect.ca> James Knott wrote: > I checked yesterday and it looked fine to me. > The code some have some comments in it. It looks like leftover from formatting changes. Perhaps that what was seen in the code. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 13:58:27 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:58:27 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP Message-ID: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? I live in Timmins and it seems that MMP sucks, not because we get to vote for the local guy and the party separately (which I like) but because we will lose ridings and because about 45% (!) of the seats will be 'list' and up to the discretion of the parties. I wonder if the South (what we call you up here) have set up things so that MMP will be more unattractive than it need be, so that the status quo (which put unpopular premiers like Mike Harris in power) will remain. I guess the gamble is that we're stupid enough to accept, "If you don't like FPTP then why didn't you vote MMP?" Apples and oranges - only the apple is organic (but run over by a car) and the orange is genetically modified and pesticide laden. I don't love to see my half-baked ideas in print - I'm trying to get some more mature perspective if there's any on this list. ;) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 14:36:32 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 10:36:32 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47079483.1010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/6/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? > > I live in Timmins and it seems that MMP sucks, not because we get to > vote for the local guy and the party separately (which I like) but > because we will lose ridings and because about 45% (!) of the seats will > be 'list' and up to the discretion of the parties. I wonder if the South > (what we call you up here) have set up things so that MMP will be more > unattractive than it need be, so that the status quo (which put > unpopular premiers like Mike Harris in power) will remain. I guess the > gamble is that we're stupid enough to accept, "If you don't like FPTP > then why didn't you vote MMP?" Apples and oranges - only the apple is > organic (but run over by a car) and the orange is genetically modified > and pesticide laden. I don't love to see my half-baked ideas in print - > I'm trying to get some more mature perspective if there's any on this list. Well, if you're inclined to be at all scared of any of the fringes, then that's a disqualifying factor for MMP, whether the fear is of the Green Party or of the Communist part or the Family Coalition or Libertarian parties. I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties appalling amounts of power/control, as majority governments would be replaced by a need to build coalitions where the last little bits to head in would get power out of proportion to their representation. That's the sort of thing that has happened in places like Italy and Israel... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 14:38:28 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 10:38:28 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47079483.1010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47079DE4.1070505@utoronto.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: > So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? > > I live in Timmins and it seems that MMP sucks, not because we get to > vote for the local guy and the party separately (which I like) but > because we will lose ridings and because about 45% (!) of the seats will > be 'list' and up to the discretion of the parties. I wonder if the South > (what we call you up here) have set up things so that MMP will be more > unattractive than it need be, so that the status quo (which put > unpopular premiers like Mike Harris in power) will remain. I guess the > gamble is that we're stupid enough to accept, "If you don't like FPTP > then why didn't you vote MMP?" Apples and oranges - only the apple is > organic (but run over by a car) and the orange is genetically modified > and pesticide laden. I don't love to see my half-baked ideas in print - > I'm trying to get some more mature perspective if there's any on this list. Disclaimer, I'm an NDP member. Local Riding Candidates are nominated in a open process by the local party members. Party leaders have all committed that "List" candidates would be nominated in an open process. I'm supporting MMP, because I'm tired of Parties claiming they have a mandate when they win less than 50%+1 of the popular vote. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 15:43:50 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:43:50 -0400 Subject: OT HP Notebook Motherboard Replacement Message-ID: <4707AD36.6070702@utoronto.ca> A friend of mine from Italy is looking for an HP notebook motherboard from two years ago. Where would I look for such a part? Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 15:56:45 2007 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 11:56:45 -0400 Subject: Countdown to Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710041938m3f6bd0cdg45a5a426c072c899@mail.gmail.com> <200710051956.52155.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> <408ae1640710052006u34891608w33658779d5bab1c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710061156.46347.fraser@georgetown.wehave.net> On Friday 05 October 2007 23:06:05 Interlug Lists wrote: > On 10/5/07, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > That's what I mean. On http://onlinux.ca/ right side column titled > > sponsors ... the only visible sponsor is KWLUG, others are commented out, > > see below for example: > > > > > > > > Google, RIM, IBM, etc. are all commented out ... odd. > > > > I saw that from work today and from home. > > How strange. I'm not seeing that at all, and I've been compulsively > refreshing all day. All of the sponsors appear as expected here. Strange indeed. I'm almost certain that I saw that effect yesterday at work from my Windows system (IE somthing), from my laptop at the office I definitely saw the problem in both firefox (2.0.0.6) and konqueror (3.5.6). This morning from home firefox is now co-operating, konqueror still is not despite me clearing it's cache. At work I definitely go through a proxy, at home (teksavvy) it's possible they redirect me through a proxy but I'm not sure. Sorry, no time to troubleshoot, turkey is waiting ... -- Fraser Campbell Georgetown, Ontario, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 16:11:34 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:11:34 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP Message-ID: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties appalling amounts of > power/control, as majority governments would be replaced by a need to > build coalitions where the last little bits to head in would get power > out of proportion to their representation. That's the sort of thing > that has happened in places like Italy and Israel... My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party could remain in power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its traditionally 'safe' seats. eg. the Liberals in Toronto and London; the NDP in areas with large numbers of organized labour like Windsor, Sudbury and Oshawa; and the Conservatives in the 905 area; -- could all get out the vote in order to offset their performance at the polls in areas where they are distinctly unpopular. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 17:11:22 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4707B3B6.5010602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> Message-ID: <29289.99.232.71.193.1191690682.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party could remain in > power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its traditionally 'safe' > seats. But then they have to work with the other parties to form a coalition that can govern, which is the norm with minority governments. So, right or left, they may have to compromise their agenda to some extent to obtain support from another party. I would say that compromise is generally a Good Thing. And my understanding is that progressive legislation often occurs under minority governments. To some extent, it's a case of a heirarchical structure (the current system) or a collaborative structure. Collaboration has generally worked well for FOSS, maybe this is an opportunity to apply it in the political sphere. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 17:22:24 2007 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:22:24 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <29289.99.232.71.193.1191690682.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> <29289.99.232.71.193.1191690682.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <200710061322.24729.glayng@sympatico.ca> The issues that I have with MMP: 1) It gives far too much power to one-note parties, especially those pushing a radical platform, as the more "generalist" parties struggle to assemble a coalition. 2) MMP governments around the world tend to be quite unstable. Italy's average government was running at less than a year in length. 3) MMP presumes that there are no independents running ever. We've had independent MPP's and MP's, but how do you allocate seats to The Independent Party, when it really doesn't exist? Do you appoint members of the Rhino Party as an alternative? On Saturday 06 October 2007 13:11, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party could remain in > > power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its traditionally 'safe' > > seats. > > But then they have to work with the other parties to form a coalition that > can govern, which is the norm with minority governments. So, right or > left, they may have to compromise their agenda to some extent to obtain > support from another party. I would say that compromise is generally a > Good Thing. And my understanding is that progressive legislation often > occurs under minority governments. > > To some extent, it's a case of a heirarchical structure (the current > system) or a collaborative structure. Collaboration has generally worked > well for FOSS, maybe this is an opportunity to apply it in the political > sphere. -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 18:20:23 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Non blocking RBL with exim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2007, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > Peter, I do get you, and there is a lot of political debate I have > come across on the net on this topic. rbl have sometime abused their > power, but they also have some information worth using when evaluating IMHO it comes down to being careful about the RBLs you choose. I am currently using zen.spamhaus.org & list.dsbl.org and I haven't had a (known) problem with either one. > I am actually running greylisting in fact. However I think greylisting > cater for a different purpose. May of less fight against ratware which Greylisting can actually be useful in conjunction with RBLs. If you temp fail the mail there is a decent chance the spammer will have been added to an RBL before they try you again (in general spammers do not queue their mail but run exactly the spam again later to try to defeat greylisting). Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 19:47:34 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4707B3B6.5010602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> Message-ID: <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- John McGregor wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties > appalling amounts of > > power/control, as majority governments would be > replaced by a need to > > build coalitions where the last little bits to > head in would get power > > out of proportion to their representation. That's > the sort of thing > > that has happened in places like Italy and > Israel... > My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party > could remain in > power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its > traditionally 'safe' > seats. eg. the Liberals in Toronto and London; the > NDP in areas with > large numbers of organized labour like Windsor, > Sudbury and Oshawa; and > the Conservatives in the 905 area; -- could all get > out the vote in > order to offset their performance at the polls in > areas where they are > distinctly unpopular. My key concern is (as with Christopher Browne) the splintering of the legislature into umpteen different political parties and you will have weird unstable coalition governments almost all the time with the tiny one note parties having WAY too much power. A secondary related (but still significant) concern is that it takes power away from the people and gives it to the political parties. Let us assume you have a Ms. X who is seen by the VERY vast majority of people as a total dirt bag. Let us also assume that Ms. X is loved by the power brokers of party Y (ie: she knows where ALL the political bodies are buried (she helped bury many of them) and is an effective fund raiser). Well under FPTP Ms. X is most unlikely to get to the legislature, but under MMP, the party can put her into office and the general public can not say boo about it all. Currently, you do get some nasty folks running in party stronghold ridings that get elected. Key point that the dirt bag MPPs are always in the end responsible and always answerable to some voters, NOT to the political parties (i.e. the current system isn't perfect but it is clearly better than what is on offer with MMP). As stands with the FPTP system everything TENDS to window down to two large more-or-less middle of the road parties and one smaller balance-of-power party that is a bit further from centre. Yes, you sometimes get a party into power that takes a step off the deep end into weird political waters. But current arrangement USUALLY delivers more-or-less middle of the road effective, responsible to the people government, while MMP appears (based on experiences in places like Italy/Israel) to deliver on extremist, ineffective, responsible to the parties, not the people government. I am willing to consider changes to the government of Ontario, but those changes must deliver power to the citizens and not the parties... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 20:12:00 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:12:00 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47079483.1010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <7ac602420710061312h2cbe8093ib3721e7e07bad416@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? I'm voting MMP. Mostly because I'm tired of having to choose the least of all evils when voting. I'm not sure that a Green parliament would be good for Ontario, but I find the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP about equally distasteful, and, in the current system, voting Green seems like a waste of a vote. With MMP, the major parties might be forced into doing some good themselves, rather than pointing out all the bad that "the other guys" have done. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 20:14:02 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 16:14:02 -0400 Subject: OT HP Notebook Motherboard Replacement In-Reply-To: <4707AD36.6070702-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4707AD36.6070702@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4707EC8A.2090609@rogers.com> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > A friend of mine from Italy is looking for an HP notebook motherboard > from two years ago. Where would I look for such a part? > eBay? -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 20:56:54 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 16:56:54 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710061312h2cbe8093ib3721e7e07bad416-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420710061312h2cbe8093ib3721e7e07bad416@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4707F696.2010903@rogers.com> Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/6/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? >> > > I'm voting MMP. Mostly because I'm tired of having to choose the > least of all evils when voting. I'm not sure that a Green parliament > would be good for Ontario, but I find the Liberals, Conservatives and > NDP about equally distasteful, and, in the current system, voting > Green seems like a waste of a vote. With MMP, the major parties might > be forced into doing some good themselves, rather than pointing out > all the bad that "the other guys" have done. > > > The problem is, no matter how we vote, politicians will still get in! ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 21:50:12 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT HP Notebook Motherboard Replacement In-Reply-To: <4707EC8A.2090609-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4707EC8A.2090609@rogers.com> Message-ID: <568058.30278.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- James Knott wrote: > Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > > A friend of mine from Italy is looking for an HP > notebook motherboard > > from two years ago. Where would I look for such a > part? > > > > eBay? eBay is likely the best option (and it has issues). I would also look to HP (if the motherboard is still available it will likely cost an arm+both legs). I would also look at craigslist (www.craigslist.org) or kijiji (toronto.kijiji.ca). Colin McGregor > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 21:52:54 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:52:54 -0400 Subject: Non blocking RBL with exim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200710061752.58838.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 6, 2007 02:20:23 pm Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 6 Oct 2007, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > > Peter, I do get you, and there is a lot of political debate I have > > come across on the net on this topic. rbl have sometime abused > > their power, but they also have some information worth using when > > evaluating > > IMHO it comes down to being careful about the RBLs you choose. I am > currently using zen.spamhaus.org & list.dsbl.org and I haven't had a > (known) problem with either one. > > > I am actually running greylisting in fact. However I think > > greylisting cater for a different purpose. May of less fight > > against ratware which > > Greylisting can actually be useful in conjunction with RBLs. If you > temp fail the mail there is a decent chance the spammer will have > been added to an RBL before they try you again (in general spammers > do not queue their mail but run exactly the spam again later to try > to defeat greylisting). Yep, I use the same setup and find it to be very effective. Maybe I'm missing something, but I certainly don't get the impression that spamhaus are maliciously adding to their list in an unwarranted fashion. The removal process is easy too. For anyone who wants to try it with postfix, just add "reject_rbl_client zen.spamhaus.org" to your smtpd_recipient_restrictions section in /etc/postfix/main.cf. It took me a while to come round to using greylisting with postfix-gld, but I have to say, I've been converted. Sure spamassassin / bogofilter / your spam filter here/ would likely catch most spam without greylisting, but it's much easier on your processor and memory to discard a message before kicking it through sa. Finally, anyone using SPF? Most MTAs support it, and I know spamassassin does too. How about DomainKeys to prevent common forgeries? Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 22:29:40 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:29:40 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <944364.39364.qm-PUkK9LDfIAyB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 6, 2007 03:47:34 pm Colin McGregor wrote: > --- John McGregor wrote: > > Christopher Browne wrote: > > > I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties > > > > appalling amounts of > > > > > power/control, as majority governments would be > > > > replaced by a need to > > > > > build coalitions where the last little bits to > > > > head in would get power > > > > > out of proportion to their representation. That's > > > > the sort of thing > > > > > that has happened in places like Italy and > > > > Israel... > > My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party > > could remain in > > power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its > > traditionally 'safe' > > seats. eg. the Liberals in Toronto and London; the > > NDP in areas with > > large numbers of organized labour like Windsor, > > Sudbury and Oshawa; and > > the Conservatives in the 905 area; -- could all get > > out the vote in > > order to offset their performance at the polls in > > areas where they are > > distinctly unpopular. > > My key concern is (as with Christopher Browne) the > splintering of the legislature into umpteen different > political parties and you will have weird unstable > coalition governments almost all the time with the > tiny one note parties having WAY too much power. > > A secondary related (but still significant) concern is > that it takes power away from the people and gives it > to the political parties. Let us assume you have a Ms. > X who is seen by the VERY vast majority of people as a > total dirt bag. Let us also assume that Ms. X is loved > by the power brokers of party Y (ie: she knows where > ALL the political bodies are buried (she helped bury > many of them) and is an effective fund raiser). Well > under FPTP Ms. X is most unlikely to get to the > legislature, but under MMP, the party can put her into > office and the general public can not say boo about it > all. > > Currently, you do get some nasty folks running in > party stronghold ridings that get elected. Key point > that the dirt bag MPPs are always in the end > responsible and always answerable to some voters, NOT > to the political parties (i.e. the current system > isn't perfect but it is clearly better than what is on > offer with MMP). > > As stands with the FPTP system everything TENDS to > window down to two large more-or-less middle of the > road parties and one smaller balance-of-power party > that is a bit further from centre. Yes, you sometimes > get a party into power that takes a step off the deep > end into weird political waters. But current > arrangement USUALLY delivers more-or-less middle of > the road effective, responsible to the people > government, while MMP appears (based on experiences in > places like Italy/Israel) to deliver on extremist, > ineffective, responsible to the parties, not the > people government. > > I am willing to consider changes to the government of > Ontario, but those changes must deliver power to the > citizens and not the parties... Do remember that it was a group of citizens that came up with the proposal. That is, a group of our (the electorate) peers. Also, I might point out a certain http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage, where proportional representation has served well for a few hundred years... Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 22:57:57 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > On October 6, 2007 03:47:34 pm Colin McGregor wrote: [snip] > > My key concern is (as with Christopher Browne) the > > splintering of the legislature into umpteen > different > > political parties and you will have weird unstable > > coalition governments almost all the time with the > > tiny one note parties having WAY too much power. > > > > A secondary related (but still significant) > concern is > > that it takes power away from the people and gives > it > > to the political parties. Let us assume you have a > Ms. > > X who is seen by the VERY vast majority of people > as a > > total dirt bag. Let us also assume that Ms. X is > loved > > by the power brokers of party Y (ie: she knows > where > > ALL the political bodies are buried (she helped > bury > > many of them) and is an effective fund raiser). > Well > > under FPTP Ms. X is most unlikely to get to the > > legislature, but under MMP, the party can put her > into > > office and the general public can not say boo > about it > > all. > > > > Currently, you do get some nasty folks running in > > party stronghold ridings that get elected. Key > point > > that the dirt bag MPPs are always in the end > > responsible and always answerable to some voters, > NOT > > to the political parties (i.e. the current system > > isn't perfect but it is clearly better than what > is on > > offer with MMP). > > > > As stands with the FPTP system everything TENDS to > > window down to two large more-or-less middle of > the > > road parties and one smaller balance-of-power > party > > that is a bit further from centre. Yes, you > sometimes > > get a party into power that takes a step off the > deep > > end into weird political waters. But current > > arrangement USUALLY delivers more-or-less middle > of > > the road effective, responsible to the people > > government, while MMP appears (based on > experiences in > > places like Italy/Israel) to deliver on extremist, > > ineffective, responsible to the parties, not the > > people government. > > > > I am willing to consider changes to the government > of > > Ontario, but those changes must deliver power to > the > > citizens and not the parties... > > Do remember that it was a group of citizens that > came up with the > proposal. That is, a group of our (the electorate) > peers. True, but irrelevant. If a group of Microsoft Canada employees (and Canadian citizens) decided to come up with an electoral reform that centered around everyone needing Microsoft Windows Vista in order to be allowed to vote, would it be a good idea? A group of our peers (the electorate) can come up with some bad ideas, and MMP is one of them. > Also, I might point out a certain > http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage, > where proportional representation has served well > for a few hundred > years... For some values of well, with 14 parties currently represented in the Swiss government, and since 1959 ruling being done by a four party coalition. In other words effectively PERMANENT government gridlock. Put another way, while not the total mess found in Italy or Israel, the Swiss situation does not inspire confidence in the MMP system. > Jamon Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 23:56:21 2007 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:56:21 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47081E42.7050303-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <47081E42.7050303@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <470820A5.1050405@visibleassets.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Do remember that it was a group of citizens that came up with the >> proposal. That is, a group of our (the electorate) peers. > > So? We did not vote for members of that "citizen assembly". If that > assembly is supposed to be representative by virtue of having been > picked at random from the citizenry, why do we bother with elections > and not pick our governments that way as well? Note: I am not > suggesting we do this. Actually it's been argued that you would have less chance of getting a criminal in power if you picked them at random off the streets. Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 23:46:10 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:46:10 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <47081E42.7050303@dinamis.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Do remember that it was a group of citizens that came up with the > proposal. That is, a group of our (the electorate) peers. So? We did not vote for members of that "citizen assembly". If that assembly is supposed to be representative by virtue of having been picked at random from the citizenry, why do we bother with elections and not pick our governments that way as well? Note: I am not suggesting we do this. > Also, I might point out a certain http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage, > where proportional representation has served well for a few hundred > years... And I might point out that Canada's model of government is based upon the Westminster parliamentary system, which has been around much longer than just about any other democratic form of government. The ineffectiveness and the seeming propensity of otherwise intelligent men and women turning into blathering idiots once they are in office has more to do with an uninformed citizenry with short attention spans than some feature of our electoral system. In other words, as long as political contests are nothing more than beauty contests and with adept spin doctoring, a party can convince the electorate that their otherwise indefensible positions on certain issues are the right positions, we get exactly the governments we deserve. I do not believe MMP will change any of that and will have some unintended consequences. I have been reading reports that New Zealanders are not happy with MMP after having voted for it. Whether that reflects majority opinion or not, I do not know. For an interesting essay about the issue of electoral reform in the Westminster parliamentary system, see: . -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 23:53:26 2007 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 19:53:26 -0400 Subject: OLF; room for one more bird the BoF nest Message-ID: <20071006235326.GA25609@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> For those of you fresh from the egg; the BoF (birds of a feather) is a very loosely structured round-table style discussion around a given topic. The Birds of a Feather part of the upcoming Ontario Linux Fest, is almost booked solid, but a little birdie told me that there was ONE MORE SPOT to fill. We're a mighty eclectic bunch, here at the GTAlug, but I'll bet if we knocked our heads together we'd identify that one missing feather in our midst. What important topic, of general interest, is glaringly missing from the schedule ? (onlinux.ca/schedule) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 23:21:15 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:21:15 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <11872.61153.qm-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4708186B.9010101@utoronto.ca> Fringe parties will only get appalling amounts of power if the larger parties allow them to. European governments have governed by coalitions for years and years. Has there been gridlock? NO! Heck! There is a minority government in power now in Ottawa. Is there gridlock? NO! It's funny how Europe with all its supposed weaknesses was able to deliver and defend its anti-trust decision against MS. Comparisons have been made with Italy and Israel. For all the electoral turmoil that has gripped Italy in its first forty years, one thing does stand out: the Christian Democrats have held the key posts of Defence, Interior and others (which I forget). Yes, I agree, democracy is messy. Well dictatorship isn't. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 00:08:18 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:08:18 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710061312h2cbe8093ib3721e7e07bad416-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420710061312h2cbe8093ib3721e7e07bad416@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/6/07, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/6/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm voting MMP. Mostly because I'm tired of having to choose the > least of all evils when voting. Actually, that suggests voting for Cthulu... http://www.cthulhu.org/ "Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?" -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 02:54:22 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 22:54:22 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <30CB2AA5-2CDE-49A0-89AD-C1B692BC8709-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> <200710061322.24729.glayng@sympatico.ca> <30CB2AA5-2CDE-49A0-89AD-C1B692BC8709@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <200710062254.27912.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 6, 2007 09:51:54 pm phil wrote: > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:22 PM, Gary Layng wrote: > > The issues that I have with MMP: > > Good points, but two that bother me much more are (as Colin points > out) politicians without even a token responsibility to an > identifiable electorate and also the raw horror of increasing the > numbers the number of MPPs by 20% or so. To bring up the Swiss again, in their system it takes 50,000 signatures to force a referendum, and 100,000 to mount a constitutional challenge. With the appropriate failsafes (i.e. vote an MMP elected leader out of office), that type of engagement could work here too. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 01:51:54 2007 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 21:51:54 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710061322.24729.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> <29289.99.232.71.193.1191690682.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <200710061322.24729.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <30CB2AA5-2CDE-49A0-89AD-C1B692BC8709@millsgarthson.ca> On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:22 PM, Gary Layng wrote: > The issues that I have with MMP: Good points, but two that bother me much more are (as Colin points out) politicians without even a token responsibility to an identifiable electorate and also the raw horror of increasing the numbers the number of MPPs by 20% or so. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 04:47:35 2007 From: andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Heagle) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:47:35 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <11872.61153.qm-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710070047.35901.andrew@logaan.com> On October 6, 2007 18:57:57 Colin McGregor wrote: [snip] > > > Also, I might point out a certain > > http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage, > > where proportional representation has served well > > for a few hundred > > years... > > For some values of well, with 14 parties currently > represented in the Swiss government, and since 1959 > ruling being done by a four party coalition. In other > words effectively PERMANENT government gridlock. Put > another way, while not the total mess found in Italy > or Israel, the Swiss situation does not inspire > confidence in the MMP system. > > > Jamon > > Colin McGregor > The Swiss do not use MMP, they use party list voting only. Their "regional" (Cantonal) elections are done by voting for individuals with no parties involved. Also, you mention Israel and Italy a few times. Israel also uses a Party List electoral method, not MMP. Italy used to have a Party list (like Israel) system only but then changed to an MMP system, but I think their situation is different than ours because their system revolves around 2 Coalition groups with multiple parties, which I think is left over from their List party days, but I doubt the same thing would happen here. They also allow people in their government that don't even live in their country. Anyway, here is why I AM going to vote for MMP. Like Chris Browne mentioned, my riding defaults to the Liberal party. On the federal level (I know the referendum is provincial only), the Liberal MP for my riding is a social conservative, Tom Wappel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wappel), even though there are a lot of immigrants in in my riding. I'm sure they would NOT vote for him if they actually knew who this guy was. In fact, I don't even remember seeing that many lawn signs in my area for him either. Anyway, because on my riding Liberals tend to win >=50% of the votes in my area, what's the point in even voting? (I do still vote, but I always feel my vote is wasted). With MMP, at least I won't feel like my vote is being wasted anymore, as I want to vote for the Green party. Also, I personally don't like majority governments. People complain with MMP that there's no "accountability", but when a party has a majority government, they can virtually do anything they want. Who's to stop them? Once they are in, there is nothing we can do as electors to stop them. When was the last time we in Canada held a by-election because we didn't like our elected representatives? At least with minority governments, which MMP systems tends to favour, (FPTP tends to favour majority governments), the other parties have more influence as to what bills/laws are passed. The PC and Liberal parties do not want to have MMP because they will lose some power. There was a discussion about this on "The Agenda" on TVO tonight (which was a repeat from 2 weeks ago). In the past few years, the Federal Liberals have had majority governments, such as in 1997 they only had 38.46% of the popular vote but won over 50% of the seats. Did they deserve to have a majority? Meanwhile the Bloc got a meagre 10% of the votes but had over 44 seats. In 1993 the Bloc had 13% of the votes and were the official opposition (with 54 seats) while in that same year the PCs got 16% (more than the Bloc) and only had 2 seats! Regards, Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 13:18:12 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710070047.35901.andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710070047.35901.andrew@logaan.com> Message-ID: <2119.99.232.71.193.1191763092.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> The CBC website has a useful discussion of FPTP vs MMP. http://www.cbc.ca/ontariovotes2007/features/features-reform.html -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gwalsh-BSvtlmuW8nk at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 16:18:49 2007 From: gwalsh-BSvtlmuW8nk at public.gmane.org (Gary Walsh) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 12:18:49 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <2119.99.232.71.193.1191763092.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710070047.35901.andrew@logaan.com> <2119.99.232.71.193.1191763092.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <1191773929.5050.3.camel@localhost> This is a good article on the "myths" being promulgated about MMP. Why our fabled democracy needs a tune-up Some key beliefs about it are myths, says a Canadian expert on electoral systems who urges Ontarians to vote for change in Wednesday's referendum -- Gary Walsh; Kitchener, Ontario, Canada gwalsh-BSvtlmuW8nk at public.gmane.org My Blog: http://gwalsh.notw.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 17:34:16 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <1191773929.5050.3.camel@localhost> References: <1191773929.5050.3.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Gary Walsh wrote: > This is a good article on the "myths" being > promulgated about MMP. [snip] The counter arguments can be seen here: http://nommp.ca/ Bottom line, MMP is bad news... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 17:50:30 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:50:30 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <1191773929.5050.3.camel@localhost> References: <11872.61153.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710070047.35901.andrew@logaan.com> <2119.99.232.71.193.1191763092.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <1191773929.5050.3.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710071050q2debc5bcu1e2fcc1a7c744934@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, Gary Walsh wrote: > This is a good article on the "myths" being promulgated about MMP. > > > > Why our fabled democracy needs a tune-up > > Some key beliefs about it are myths, says a Canadian expert on electoral > systems who urges Ontarians to vote for change in Wednesday's referendum Interesting article - thanks for the link. All 3 points made in the article are relevant to my understanding of the referendum, with point #2 being the most relevant. If we can't trust our "Parties" to be democratic then neither process (FPTP, MMP) is of any value. I expect to vote in favor of MMP, though I am _very_ carefully watching the arguments made on this thread. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 17:52:39 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:52:39 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <668966.56684.qm-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 7, 2007 01:34:16 pm Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Gary Walsh wrote: > > This is a good article on the "myths" being > > promulgated about MMP. > > [snip] > > The counter arguments can be seen here: > > http://nommp.ca/ > > Bottom line, MMP is bad news... The more apodeictic and reductive the claims I hear, the more I'm inclined to vote for it, as typically nothing is so black and white as the issue is being made out to be. The argument about fringe parties holding the balance of power is entirely fallacious as well. Doesn't anyone recall the previous votes on the Federal Governenment's budgets? Recall how 3-4 independent MPs held the balance of power there. How is that situation any different? The "bottom line" is that when we vote on Wed., I'd hazard a guess that 90+% of us will do just that--vote and go home--having abdicateted any further political responsibility for another 4 years to a 3rd party. To be unequivocal about it, apathy and lack of involvement, whatever form our political system takes, is the bottom line bad news issue. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 18:05:35 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:05:35 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710071105h7a2ee3ecx66665a345af8115b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, Jamon Camisso wrote: > The "bottom line" is that when we vote on Wed., I'd hazard a guess that > 90+% of us will do just that--vote and go home--having abdicateted any > further political responsibility for another 4 years to a 3rd party. Well said. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 18:10:36 2007 From: jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Jon Thiele) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:10:36 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> > > [snip] > > The counter arguments can be seen here: > > http://nommp.ca/ > > >From the website: "Tax dollars paying for 22 more politicians and their staff at Queen's Park" Well, that does it for me. I know exactly(!) how I'm going to vote... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 18:26:43 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:26:43 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, Jon Thiele wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > The counter arguments can be seen here: > > > > http://nommp.ca/ > > From the website: > > "Tax dollars paying for 22 more politicians and their staff at Queen's Park" > > Well, that does it for me. I know exactly(!) how I'm going to vote... Not sure I understand your statement. For example: * Should we throw our tax dollars towards advertising scandals, as evidenced by the Federal Liberals? * Put those dollars towards funding all faith-based school systems? * Any of a bazilliion other programs promised by politicians at election-time and never implemented? How would you like to see your tax dollars used? Personally, I'd rather pay for the extra politicians - just to hear _their views_. (Sorry, gotta run... Turkey's waiting!) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 18:41:16 2007 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:41:16 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> On Oct 7, 2007, at 2:26 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > Not sure I understand your statement. For example: > > * Should we throw our tax dollars towards advertising scandals, as > evidenced by the Federal Liberals? > * Put those dollars towards funding all faith-based school systems? > * Any of a bazilliion other programs promised by politicians at > election-time and never implemented? > > How would you like to see your tax dollars used? Since we're guaranteed to get things just as wasteful as those you quote regardless, I'd rather not pay for them *PLUS* 22 extra parasites, their entourage, and expenses on top of it. When we're in a position where current tax levels are capable of supporting program delivery and reducing debt, it might be a good time to talk about funding an increase in administrative overhead...or not. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 19:23:13 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:23:13 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <47093221.7040102@telly.org> All things considered, I (and most people I know personally) will be voting against MMP. Jamon Camisso wrote: > The more apodeictic and reductive the claims I hear, the more I'm > inclined to vote for it, as typically nothing is so black and white as > the issue is being made out to be. > I agree. While MMP is not without its benefits, to me they simply do not outweigh the drawbacks. This is less a matter of reducing everything so much as mesauring the balance. Both systems have the capacity to give power to parties out of proportion to the popular vote -- one is weighted towards smaller parties, one towards larger ones. To me, the MMP approach is by far the worse of the two types of inequity. > The argument about fringe parties holding the balance of power is > entirely fallacious as well. Doesn't anyone recall the previous votes > on the Federal Governenment's budgets? Recall how 3-4 independent MPs > held the balance of power there. Generally, these are instances in which local constituents convince their elected member to consider their own wishes and interests above those of blind party loyalty (most of the independents were previously party members). These are not machines, after all, and are free to break partisan discipline if they are aware of their personal political consequences. And such rare occurrences are the exception that proves the rule. Those MPs had that unreasonable level of power because of a minority government situation. MMP would institutionalize the practice rather than keep it as a rarity. Under MMP, there's a whole new category of representative with no local constituent allegiance, and no public accountability. The MMP system allows individuals who may be hated by the public but adored by their party to achieve MPP and even Cabinet status, which I do not consider to be a Good Thing. It's bad enough the Senate gets picked this way. Also consider what MMP does to the concept of a "free vote", such as what Tory is proposing for the faith-schools funding issue. Freed of party discipline, to whom are these new MPPs accountable to when they vote? Or do they still vote the party line, thus negating the value of having free votes at all? > The "bottom line" is that when we vote on Wed., I'd hazard a guess that > 90+% of us will do just that--vote and go home--having abdicateted any > further political responsibility for another 4 years to a 3rd party. > And your point is...? Anyone can get involved if the will exists. IMO the promises that MMP will energize the electorate at large are pure BS wishful thinking. The only ones energized will be single-issue groups such as anti-abortion or pro-marijuana activists (both of whom have their own parties), and that is not the kind of presence that will make the province governed better. (Arguably the vastly out-of-proportion power of small but rabid anti-Palestinean political parties in Israel such as Shas -- a gift of its MMP style system -- has been a severe impediment to peace in the region.) Now... having said that, there _are_ some steps that can assist smaller parties, for instance granting official party status based on number of votes rather than number of MPPs. But MMP is not the right answer. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 19:25:27 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:25:27 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 10/7/07, Jon Thiele wrote: >>> [snip] >>> >>> The counter arguments can be seen here: >>> >>> http://nommp.ca/ >> From the website: >> >> "Tax dollars paying for 22 more politicians and their staff at Queen's Park" >> >> Well, that does it for me. I know exactly(!) how I'm going to vote... > > Not sure I understand your statement. For example: > > * Should we throw our tax dollars towards advertising scandals, as > evidenced by the Federal Liberals? Or grants by the McGuinty government to various groups with Liberal ties? > * Put those dollars towards funding all faith-based school systems? Actually, no. I would rather that all schools get funded using a voucher system, regardless of whether they are "faith-based" (I guess parochial was too big a word) or not. Star columnist Haroon Siddiqi has an interesting analysis of the backlash against funding of parochial schools here: . I cannot say that I disagree with him judging by the comments I've read on-line. I used to be very much opposed to funding of any parochial schools, including the Catholic system, a few years ago but have since changed my mind. It seems to me that the most ardent opponents of funding of parochial schools profess a faith, though they don't call it as such, of secular humanism. Quite often, these same people are the ones who argue that Christmas should be called "Winter Festival", or some such ridiculous euphemism, and Christmas trees should be removed from public buildings. More often than not, the people who promote these views are not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims but rather people who a generation ago would have been called "Christians" and now consider themselves to be agnostics or atheists. They pursue the promotion of their beliefs with as much zeal as any "fundamentalist" of any other religion. Therefore, funding only the public system funds only one particular religion, that of secular humanists, which is just as unjust as the status quo. Of course not all parents who send their children to public schools fall into the category of secular humanists but that is no different than non-Catholics who send their children to Catholic schools. I found the arguments put forth by all political parties wanting on this issue but in particular, I found the position of the Liberals most indefensible. McGuinty's use of such divisive language as "segregation" with respect to funding parochial schools was just reprehensible and offensive. His claim that stopping funding of Catholic schools was not possible due to constitutional obligations was just political cowardice. If he were truly concerned about "inclusiveness" and against "segregation", he would pledge to stop funding Catholic schools but of course that would be politically suicidal. There is also the minor detail that he and his Education Minister, Kathleen Wynne, who represents my riding, both supported extending funding to all parochial schools in the name of fairness before they were elected. They attack the very same position that they themselves had promoted. Did they change their minds? If so, I can respect that as long as they put forth credible arguments but they pretend that they never supported that position. That is just hypocritical. > * Any of a bazilliion other programs promised by politicians at > election-time and never implemented? > > How would you like to see your tax dollars used? > > Personally, I'd rather pay for the extra politicians - just to hear > _their views_. I don't understand how hearing "the views" of more politicians is going to make this any more a representative democracy. How are more MPPs going to ensure we don't have scandals and corruption? Why not have twice as many politicians then? That should be twice as representative. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 19:45:26 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:45:26 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47093221.7040102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <47093221.7040102@telly.org> Message-ID: <47093756.3070107@dinamis.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Both systems have the capacity to give power to parties out of > proportion to the popular vote -- one is weighted towards smaller > parties, one towards larger ones. To me, the MMP approach is by far the > worse of the two types of inequity. I agree. Any political party that hopes to form a government has to be a "big tent" party so that tends to even out excesses, though it can also be argued that it tends to drive parties to mediocrity where no bold initiatives can ever be put forth. Perhaps the place to look is within the parties themselves to find out more about how they set their policies, how they elect their leaders, and how they nominate their candidates for election in ridings. Parties that have "one member, one vote" and transparent policy conventions and nomination/leadership election processes are more representative than parties where they have arcane rules for nomination/leadership elections. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 20:38:30 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:38:30 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470932A7.3000900-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <200710071638.35934.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 7, 2007 03:25:27 pm CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On 10/7/07, Jon Thiele wrote: > >>> [snip] > >>> > >>> The counter arguments can be seen here: > >>> > >>> http://nommp.ca/ > >> > >> From the website: > >> > >> "Tax dollars paying for 22 more politicians and their staff at > >> Queen's Park" > >> > >> Well, that does it for me. I know exactly(!) how I'm going to > >> vote... > > > > Not sure I understand your statement. For example: > > > > * Should we throw our tax dollars towards advertising scandals, > > as evidenced by the Federal Liberals? > > Or grants by the McGuinty government to various groups with Liberal > ties? > > > * Put those dollars towards funding all faith-based school > > systems? > > Actually, no. I would rather that all schools get funded using a > voucher system, regardless of whether they are "faith-based" (I guess > parochial was too big a word) or not. Star columnist Haroon Siddiqi > has an interesting analysis of the backlash against funding of > parochial schools here: > . I cannot say that > I disagree with him judging by the comments I've read on-line. > > I used to be very much opposed to funding of any parochial schools, > including the Catholic system, a few years ago but have since changed > my mind. It seems to me that the most ardent opponents of funding of > parochial schools profess a faith, though they don't call it as such, > of secular humanism. Quite often, these same people are the ones who > argue that Christmas should be called "Winter Festival", or some such > ridiculous euphemism, and Christmas trees should be removed from > public buildings. More often than not, the people who promote these > views are not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims but rather people who a > generation ago would have been called "Christians" and now consider > themselves to be agnostics or atheists. They pursue the promotion of > their beliefs with as much zeal as any "fundamentalist" of any other > religion. Therefore, funding only the public system funds only one > particular religion, that of secular humanists, which is just as > unjust as the status quo. Of course not all parents who send their > children to public schools fall into the category of secular > humanists but that is no different than non-Catholics who send their > children to Catholic schools. To conflate a philosophical system with organized spirituality is plain disingenuous. It does a disservice to both groups, whom you have painted with overly broad strokes. For example, an undergraduate degree: the main focus of the educational institutions offering training to undergraduates is to foster and develop critical thinking skills within a particular discipline. That just happens to be a focus of so called "secular humanism." But I've yet to come across a religion that truly accepts critical inquiry if it doesn't reinforce that particular religious system's dogma. That and I might point out that the United Nations don't have a problem with only funding the current public education system. In fact they've said the current public/Catholic system contravenes human rights, and that either we do away with the system (Newfoundland did that successfully, even the religious groups admit it) or we fund everyone--and that will include religions/sects that would promote intolerance of homosexuality or prevent stem-cell research, abortions etc. > I found the arguments put forth by all political parties wanting on > this issue but in particular, I found the position of the Liberals > most indefensible. McGuinty's use of such divisive language as > "segregation" with respect to funding parochial schools was just > reprehensible and offensive. His claim that stopping funding of > Catholic schools was not possible due to constitutional obligations > was just political cowardice. If he were truly concerned about > "inclusiveness" and against "segregation", he would pledge to stop > funding Catholic schools but of course that would be politically > suicidal. There is also the minor detail that he and his Education > Minister, Kathleen Wynne, who represents my riding, both supported > extending funding to all parochial schools in the name of fairness > before they were elected. They attack the very same position that > they themselves had promoted. Did they change their minds? If so, I > can respect that as long as they put forth credible arguments but > they pretend that they never supported that position. That is just > hypocritical. > > > * Any of a bazilliion other programs promised by politicians at > > election-time and never implemented? > > > > How would you like to see your tax dollars used? > > > > Personally, I'd rather pay for the extra politicians - just to hear > > _their views_. > > I don't understand how hearing "the views" of more politicians is > going to make this any more a representative democracy. How are more > MPPs going to ensure we don't have scandals and corruption? Why not > have twice as many politicians then? That should be twice as > representative. To frame the issue in terms of a computer metaphor, we all work with levels of abstraction away from the physical processor memory etc. Layers upon layers. Since the benefits of that in computing are clear and tangible, why not give it a try with democracy, since again, no one wants to really be actively involved in the process. Granted, politics can't really be discretized (would that they could be!), and I even wonder if some politicians could pass the Turing test, but I think the notion of abstraction does work here. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 21:02:39 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:02:39 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470932A7.3000900-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4709496F.5030600@telly.org> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I used to be very much opposed to funding of any parochial schools, > including the Catholic system, a few years ago but have since changed > my mind. It seems to me that the most ardent opponents of funding of > parochial schools profess a faith, though they don't call it as such, > of secular humanism. Quite often, these same people are the ones who > argue that Christmas should be called "Winter Festival", or some such > ridiculous euphemism, and Christmas trees should be removed from > public buildings. More often than not, the people who promote these > views are not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims but rather people who a > generation ago would have been called "Christians" and now consider > themselves to be agnostics or atheists. POV from a sample size of one. When we were raising the kids in Brampton, the school was a living breathing Benetton ad. All faiths, all colours, at least a dozen or two first languages. That school indeed had a Winter Festival. At the concert you had Jewish kids singing Christmas carols, Hindu kids lighting Kwanzaa candles, Muslim kids playing dreidel, and the Christian kids explaining Diwali. Yes, there were Christmas trees, I think there was even a nativity scene. But the trappings of all faith's winter festivals were also welcome for everyone to see. I couldn' t have been prouder. The school system could not have served all those kids better, in demonstrating that everyone has something that is important to them but not everyone shares the same 'something' -- diversity as a strength, not a weakness. My kids would never have received this kind of exposure has they spent their time in a school (literally) preaching one faith as the Only One That Matters. With few exceptions (Buddhism notably among them), religions tend to be mutually exclusive. And almost by definition, they must define their particular faith-based ethics as superior -- more divine, if you would -- than those of other religions. What you call Secular Humanism is a religion only to the extent that it has a core ethic, and its own view of human nature. Unlike most religions, it is not mutually exclusive. Even without government funding, many faiths manage to do quite well offering Sunday school which augments the public "core ethic" with those specific to the parents' wishes. The key word is "augment", not " replace". To this extent I am quite happy to promote and defend "secular humanism" as a core ethic which represents the values of this particular society. Religions are welcome to augment this, and even challenge it when they wish, but I don' t believe that children should be brought up in religious ghettos and only introduced into the mainstream near adulthood. Anyone who considers themselves "non religious" will at least have their kids in an environment that promotes a minimally useful ethical code. Like it or not, the Charter of Rights essentially defines Canada as a secular humanist country rather than one based on the dogma of any of the mutually exclusive faiths. It accepts religions within its midst up to and until the values of those religions adversely affect non-believers. This characteristic is not shared by many countries but it is ours. If I had my way, there would be a single public board, but school boards would be encouraged to fund optional faith-based _supplemental_ programs (not far different from the 'heritage language' programs funded by many school boards right now). > I found the arguments put forth by all political parties wanting on > this issue but in particular, I found the position of the Liberals > most indefensible. McGuinty's use of such divisive language as > "segregation" with respect to funding parochial schools was just > reprehensible and offensive. If the shoe fits... It may be offensive but it's still accurate. > His claim that stopping funding of Catholic schools was not possible > due to constitutional obligations was just political cowardice. If he > were truly concerned about "inclusiveness" and against "segregation", > he would pledge to stop funding Catholic schools but of course that > would be politically suicidal. Eventually we can hope someone will have the courage. Certainly the NDP, were it to be in a majority position, would consider the move... - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 21:53:36 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 17:53:36 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4709496F.5030600-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> <4709496F.5030600@telly.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710071453v527d9a51rf806c5d108b45c81@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > POV from a sample size of one. You can make that a sample size of two. I have been struggling to find a way to express what I feel about the idea of funding private schools with public money. I don't have kids yet, so I haven't seen a Winter Festival like what you described, but I think I'd feel proud, like you did, and the rest of your post quite elegantly captures my feelings on the subject. I'd be happy to leave the Catholic school system where it is--the status quo doesn't bother me--but if it comes time to change the status quo because favouring one religion over all others has someone's panties in a knot, then, to me, the only obvious solution is to dismantle the Catholic system (and therefore change the constitution as necessary). The government should stay out of my home and, if I had a church, it should stay out of that, too. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 23:06:52 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:06:52 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710071453v527d9a51rf806c5d108b45c81-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> <4709496F.5030600@telly.org> <7ac602420710071453v527d9a51rf806c5d108b45c81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4709668C.7060701@rogers.com> Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/7/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> POV from a sample size of one. >> > > You can make that a sample size of two. I have been struggling to > find a way to express what I feel about the idea of funding private > schools with public money. I don't have kids yet, so I haven't seen a > Winter Festival like what you described, but I think I'd feel proud, > like you did, and the rest of your post quite elegantly captures my > feelings on the subject. > > I'd be happy to leave the Catholic school system where it is--the > status quo doesn't bother me--but if it comes time to change the > status quo because favouring one religion over all others has > someone's panties in a knot, then, to me, the only obvious solution is > to dismantle the Catholic system (and therefore change the > constitution as necessary). The government should stay out of my home > and, if I had a church, it should stay out of that, too. > > Ian > > As far as I'm concerned, the taxpayers money should only be used to fund a public system that's open to all. It should not be used to support segregation. If the parents want their kids in a religious school, let them pay for it themselves. Also, all such schools must adhere to the same curriculum as the public schools WRT history, sciences etc. None of this creationist nonsense to the exclusion of evolution. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 00:02:09 2007 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:02:09 -0400 Subject: Ardour workshop @ linuxcaffe with Benny Powers In-Reply-To: <20071005161130.GC8980-f3ydu6uS1R7I9rkgco+hXrUXFt3QzJ1Y@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005161130.GC8980@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20071008000209.GB23437@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:11:30PM -0400, David J Patrick wrote: > This Sunday (yes, Thanksgiving Sunday) The incomparable Ben Powers will be > setting up Ardour (THE linux-based Digital Audio Workstation; ardour.org) > and explaining / demonstrating how you too can have a professional-grade, > multi-track audio recording and post-production set-up. Well for for those of you who might be wondering, Ben put on another great demo, starring the guy who drove all the way in from Midland, on guitar and vocals. Mr Powers will be spending the next year in the Holy Land (yes, Israel) and, if we're lucky, he'll give us another workshop late 2008. Happy Thanksgiving, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 02:54:40 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:54:40 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, phil wrote: > Since we're guaranteed to get things just as wasteful as those you > quote regardless, I'd rather not pay for them *PLUS* 22 extra > parasites, their entourage, and expenses on top of it. Good point. > When we're in > a position where current tax levels are capable of supporting program > delivery and reducing debt, it might be a good time to talk about > funding an increase in administrative overhead...or not. As a libertarian I'm not into funding unnecessary administration. However, being moderately-so (libertarian), I'm not adverse to throwing a few extra tax dollars towards finding an alternate solution for increasing the publics' participation in Government. In order to implement MMP, 60% of the vote in 60% of the ridings is required. I would've thought the democratic approach would be more like 50%+1 votes in 50%+1 ridings, but that's not the case. I think the deck is stacked in favor of FPTP, and that makes me... um... argumentative. If there were an "out" clause (whereby we could, by referendum, revert to FPTP in the next election) I would vote MMP without thought. I haven't heard or seen anything suggesting there is a way back though, which leaves me in the frustrating place I find myself every election - not knowing "how to help" - only doubly-so. I don't like feeling stupid; if necessary, I'll roll the dice to induce change. That's just me though. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 03:33:27 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 23:33:27 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: > As a libertarian I'm not into funding unnecessary administration. > However, being moderately-so (libertarian), I'm not adverse to > throwing a few extra tax dollars towards finding an alternate solution > for increasing the publics' participation in Government. > But that' s the point. There's no promise beyond wishful thinking that MMP will increase public participation one shred. Political whores will simply follow the power, as MMP shifts influence from big parties to small ones. Any increase in activity in small parties could simply be from former workers in large parties, so the net gain in public participation could well be zero. It'll just be the same influence-mongers, under different banners. Big deal. > In order to implement MMP, 60% of the vote in 60% of the ridings is > required. I would've thought the democratic approach would be more > like 50%+1 votes in 50%+1 ridings, but that's not the case. I think > the deck is stacked in favor of FPTP, and that makes me... um... > argumentative. > Why? It's not at all uncommon that any decision that requires a significant change to an organization's structure -- changing bylaws rather than resolutions, in corporate speak -- requires something beyond a simple majority. Arguably, major decisions like these usually require votes of two-thirds or three-quarters, so 60% is actually a surprisingly low setting of the bar. From my POV this is one more example of how the campaign has been stacked in favour of MMP proponents. > I don't like feeling stupid; if necessary, I'll roll the dice to induce change. > That kind of public sentiment is what gave Ontario Mike Harris as premier. Dice rolling tends to backfire. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 03:52:47 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:52:47 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4709A507.7080106-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710072052jc414f65u46ca26e7d32b3a72@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > As a libertarian I'm not into funding unnecessary administration. > > However, being moderately-so (libertarian), I'm not adverse to > > throwing a few extra tax dollars towards finding an alternate solution > > for increasing the publics' participation in Government. > > > But that' s the point. There's no promise beyond wishful thinking that > MMP will increase public participation one shred. Indeed that's my problem; as mentioned earlier, I'm paying _very_ close attention to this topic. [snip] > > I don't like feeling stupid; if necessary, I'll roll the dice to induce change. > > > That kind of public sentiment is what gave Ontario Mike Harris as > premier. Dice rolling tends to backfire. I don't feel like I'm in a position to make an "informed" vote; there are (what I consider to be) good arguments on both sides, and no sense of consensus in this community. With only a few days left to make a decision, I really don't know what I'll do yet. Tangent: I think the OP has started an important conversation for us; I can see two distinct POV's forming within our community on an important issue that affects all of us, well outside our normal "group interactions." So far, the points being made are self-managed and informative. I'd love to see our MP's & MPP's operating in this way - regardless of voting process. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 06:12:22 2007 From: andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Heagle) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 02:12:22 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47093221.7040102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <47093221.7040102@telly.org> Message-ID: <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> On October 7, 2007 15:23:13 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > And your point is...? Anyone can get involved if the will exists. IMO > the promises that MMP will energize the electorate at large are pure BS > wishful thinking. The only ones energized will be single-issue groups > such as anti-abortion or pro-marijuana activists (both of whom have > their own parties), and that is not the kind of presence that will make > the province governed better. (Arguably the vastly out-of-proportion > power of small but rabid anti-Palestinean political parties in Israel > such as Shas -- a gift of its MMP style system -- has been a severe > impediment to peace in the region.) Israel uses a Party List system, *NOT* MMP. They have NO ridings or regions in their electoral system. Also, I think comparing Israel and Ontario doesn't really apply as Israel has 2 (maybe more) very large groups of people that want to kill each other, as well, Israel is completely surrounded by countries that want to destroy it. This is bound to create many people (and politicians) that are going to be very right-wing/radical so that should not be too much of a surprise. Last time I checked, Ontario had no such problems as these, and I don't think these fringe groups you are so scared will cause such extreme problems as you describe. Anyway, why would groups like the anti-abortion group need to start a party when they can already "buy" candidates, even in the Liberal party? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wappel > > Now... having said that, there _are_ some steps that can assist smaller > parties, for instance granting official party status based on number of > votes rather than number of MPPs. But MMP is not the right answer. > > - Evan What purpose is there to grant a party of official party status if they have no seats? Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 12:09:32 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:09:32 -0400 Subject: Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario speaks on Privacy by Design Message-ID: <470A1DFC.2060405@pppoe.ca> From /., "Dr. Ann Cavoukian, Canada's Information and Privacy Commissioner, recently gave a talk entitled Privacy by Design . The talk starts off by covering the basics of privacy, and privacy law, and then moves onto the important component: how to design software that properly protects users privacy. The majority of the talk is spent on design principles, but also examines specific technologies (such as Elliptical Curve Cryptography)." http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/media/Privacy%20by%20Design.html / /She is the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario, not Canada. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 14:18:37 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:18:37 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710080212.22369.andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <47093221.7040102@telly.org> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> Message-ID: <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> Andrew Heagle wrote: > Israel uses a Party List system, *NOT* MMP. They have NO ridings or regions in > their electoral system. The mechanics are different but the core intended result is the same -- MKs in proportions similar to the popular vote. > Also, I think comparing Israel and Ontario doesn't really apply as Israel has 2 (maybe more) very large groups of people that want to kill each other, Really? I think that would be important news to most Israelis. > as well, Israel is completely surrounded by > countries that want to destroy it. This is bound to create many people (and > politicians) that are going to be very right-wing/radical so that should not > be too much of a surprise. The point is that the proportional system gives these radical fringe politicians far more power than they deserve, because of the constant difficulties in creating governing coalitions. While the nature and level of the radicalism between here and there are obviously different, the end result is the same; the inability to make courageous political moves that are necessary and generally approved by the mainstream but loudly opposed by small special interest groups. > Anyway, why would groups like the anti-abortion group need to start a party when they can already "buy" candidates, even in the Liberal party? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wappel > What do you mean "why would they?" -- THEY ALREADY HAVE. Please do your research before pretending to speak authoritatively about the subject. The Family Coalition Party is running candidates in 83 ridings this election. This party, along with the Greens, stands to gain the most from MMP -- and the only thing it really cares about is the banning of abortion and same-sex unions. In any case, the inference that Wappel's political actions have been a result of financial gain rather than personal conviction is both unfounded and potentially libelous. > What purpose is there to grant a party of official party status if they have > no seats? > Because it gives them research funding and other resources that makes it easier for them to define policies and appeal to the public in future elections. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 14:35:02 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A3C3D.5010908-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> Message-ID: <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 8, 2007 10:18:37 am Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Andrew Heagle wrote: > > Israel uses a Party List system, *NOT* MMP. They have NO ridings or > > regions in their electoral system. > > The mechanics are different but the core intended result is the same > -- MKs in proportions similar to the popular vote. > > > Also, I think comparing Israel and Ontario doesn't really apply as > > Israel has 2 (maybe more) very large groups of people that want to > > kill each other, > > Really? I think that would be important news to most Israelis. > > > as well, Israel is completely surrounded by > > countries that want to destroy it. This is bound to create many > > people (and politicians) that are going to be very > > right-wing/radical so that should not be too much of a surprise. > > The point is that the proportional system gives these radical fringe > politicians far more power than they deserve, because of the constant > difficulties in creating governing coalitions. While the nature and > level of the radicalism between here and there are obviously > different, the end result is the same; the inability to make > courageous political moves that are necessary and generally approved > by the mainstream but loudly opposed by small special interest > groups. Conversely, with the notion of abstraction and less direct access to those MMP elected MPPs, the ability to make courageous political moves would be increased, since those members need not be so accountable to the whims of any particular electorate within a riding. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 14:48:45 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:48:45 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470A434D.90306@telly.org> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Conversely, with the notion of abstraction and less direct access to > those MMP elected MPPs, the ability to make courageous political moves > would be increased, since those members need not be so accountable to > the whims of any particular electorate within a riding. That is simply not the case in theory or practice. They are accountable to their minority parties, not to the better good of the mainstream. Without direct riding accountability there is even less incentive to listen to the mainstream. Your own instinct -- and political history -- should indicate that minority and coalition governments are far less able to act quickly or make significant change than majority governments. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 15:23:12 2007 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:23:12 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A434D.90306-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> Message-ID: <8844F16C-17B0-4A59-A352-F530543FDA74@millsgarthson.ca> On Oct 8, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Without direct riding accountability there is even less incentive to > listen to the mainstream. Note also that when riding associations are involved there is sometimes (at least minimal) opposition to party leadership attempting to get their hand-picked insiders elected. But they repeatedly try to do it anyway, which suggests to me that all the talk about using party lists to overcome unbalanced results is nothing but marketing. MMP removes that check on cronyism for the at-large cases. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 15:35:18 2007 From: paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org (Paul Nash) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:35:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Chess set Message-ID: Way off topic, but you're the sort of people who might know: I'm looking for a chess set for a friend's birthday. There are a bunch of nice sets on eBay, but I'd like to feel the pieces first, so does anyone know a shop in Toronto that has a good selection of decent and/or funky chess sets. I'm looking to spend about $100 on a set plus board. Thanks paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 15:45:48 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:45:48 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4709A507.7080106-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> Message-ID: <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: >> I don't like feeling stupid; if necessary, I'll roll the dice to induce change. >> > That kind of public sentiment is what gave Ontario Mike Harris as > premier. Dice rolling tends to backfire. MMP wouldn't have given us Mike Harris. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 16:10:43 2007 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:10:43 -0400 Subject: OT: Chess set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470A5683.7050102@rogers.com> Paul Nash wrote: > I'm looking for a chess set for a friend's birthday. There are a bunch of > nice sets on eBay, but I'd like to feel the pieces first, so does anyone > know a shop in Toronto that has a good selection of decent and/or funky > chess sets. I'm looking to spend about $100 on a set plus board. > Is your friend a serious chess player? Do you expect him to use the gift to play with? If so, a decorative set is *not* a good choice. Chess players want to use a Staunton style, only. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 16:18:11 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:18:11 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A50AC.7090407-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > > MMP wouldn't have given us Mike Harris. So it instead would have re-elected Bob Rae? What progress. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 16:44:06 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:44:06 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A5843.8090900-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> Message-ID: <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Ivan Avery Frey wrote: >> MMP wouldn't have given us Mike Harris. > > So it instead would have re-elected Bob Rae? What I meant to say is that MMP wouldn't have given us back to back Mike Harris majority governments. Anyhow Bob Rae was re-elected in his own riding, ;-). So in the 1995 election with the PCs at 44.8%, the Liberals at 39.9%, and the NDP at 12.6%, we might have had a Liberal minority government with the NDP holding the balance of power. Anyhow why does Bob Rae get blamed for a recession which was caused by 1) a recession in the States and 2) Bank of Canada John Crow's 0% inflation policy. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 17:11:25 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Chess set In-Reply-To: <470A5683.7050102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <470A5683.7050102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <349328.45937.qm@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Stephen wrote: > Paul Nash wrote: > > I'm looking for a chess set for a friend's > birthday. There are a bunch of > > nice sets on eBay, but I'd like to feel the pieces > first, so does anyone > > know a shop in Toronto that has a good selection > of decent and/or funky > > chess sets. I'm looking to spend about $100 on a > set plus board. > > > Is your friend a serious chess player? Do you expect > him to use the gift > to play with? > > If so, a decorative set is *not* a good choice. > Chess players want to > use a Staunton style, only. Your right that THE standard for tournament play is the Staunton style. I have a Staunton style set, and that is what I turn to by default. On the other hand I do have and in a perverse way do like one of the decorative style sets where all the pieces are modeled after members of a medieval European court. So, question to be considered is, "Will the set be used for primarily for tournament play or will it be used for decorative purposes?". Back to the original question, where to get a range of chess sets in the GTA, and my first suggestion would be: Strategy Games 1683 Bayview Avenue Toronto, Ontario M4G 3C1 (416) 486-3395 www.chesstalk.com/boutique/store/index.php?langue=EN Dozens of different designs. In looking at their website sets (with boards) range from under $4 (for a tiny magnetic set whose ONLY saving grace is that it can fold up and fit into a small pocket) all the way up to decorative sets that run for over $1,400. Tournament size/weight plastic Staunton style sets start around $20 (with more expensive wood versions available)... Colin McGregor > Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 17:14:11 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:14:11 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <8844F16C-17B0-4A59-A352-F530543FDA74-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> <8844F16C-17B0-4A59-A352-F530543FDA74@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <470A6563.8050201@telly.org> phil wrote: > Note also that when riding associations are involved there is > sometimes (at least minimal) opposition to party leadership attempting > to get their hand-picked insiders elected. That works both ways. Sometimes the central party intervenes when a local special interest group packs the riding association to get one of their own nominated as the candidate. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberals_for_Life for one example. Occasionally when this happens, the un-nominated person runs successfully as an independent, which is a good counterbalance against this practice and generally good for democracy. (The highest profile recent example of a person rejected by party but endorsed as an independent is US Congressman Joe Lieberman, though BC MP Chuck Cadman demonstrated how it works in the Canadian system.) As well, a sitting M(P)P disgusted with the evolution or execution of their party's policies can leave the caucus (or be expelled) and sit as an independent (ie, Carolyn Parrish, David Kilgour). Under MMP, there is a whole block of people who must either vote the party line, be expelled from the legislature, or be accountable to nobody. By definition MMP is biased against independents, and is designed to diminish their influence -- an interesting irony for a scheme claimed to increase interest in personal political involvement. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 18:58:33 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:58:33 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4709496F.5030600-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> <4709496F.5030600@telly.org> Message-ID: <470A7DD9.8060106@dinamis.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> I used to be very much opposed to funding of any parochial schools, >> including the Catholic system, a few years ago but have since changed >> my mind. It seems to me that the most ardent opponents of funding of >> parochial schools profess a faith, though they don't call it as such, >> of secular humanism. Quite often, these same people are the ones who >> argue that Christmas should be called "Winter Festival", or some such >> ridiculous euphemism, and Christmas trees should be removed from >> public buildings. More often than not, the people who promote these >> views are not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims but rather people who a >> generation ago would have been called "Christians" and now consider >> themselves to be agnostics or atheists. > POV from a sample size of one. > > When we were raising the kids in Brampton, the school was a living > breathing Benetton ad. All faiths, all colours, at least a dozen or two > first languages. That describes the school that my children attend. My wife and I have never sent our children to parochial schools but we are certainly not opposed to the idea of other parents doing that. > That school indeed had a Winter Festival. At the concert you had Jewish > kids singing Christmas carols, Hindu kids lighting Kwanzaa candles, > Muslim kids playing dreidel, and the Christian kids explaining Diwali. > > Yes, there were Christmas trees, I think there was even a nativity > scene. But the trappings of all faith's winter festivals were also > welcome for everyone to see. > > I couldn' t have been prouder. The school system could not have served > all those kids better, in demonstrating that everyone has something that > is important to them but not everyone shares the same 'something' -- > diversity as a strength, not a weakness. My kids would never have > received this kind of exposure has they spent their time in a school > (literally) preaching one faith as the Only One That Matters. > > With few exceptions (Buddhism notably among them), religions tend to be > mutually exclusive. And almost by definition, they must define their > particular faith-based ethics as superior -- more divine, if you would > -- than those of other religions. > > What you call Secular Humanism is a religion only to the extent that it > has a core ethic, and its own view of human nature. Unlike most > religions, it is not mutually exclusive. That presumes other religions do not accept other faiths as being legitimate. Some of course do not but Buddhism is not the only one that recognizes other faiths. I have met many fine adults who are the products of parochial schools. There are many rural areas in this country that are ethnically homogeneous and many of them have strong religious beliefs but they have also managed to turn out fine, upstanding citizens from public schools. In other words, it is not the act of living in an ethnically diverse area and culture grazing that automatically creates good citizens. All the Kwanzaa (a manufactured holiday if there ever was one ) candle lighting in the world is no substitute for studying and understanding the basis of our democracy. All that "inclusiveness" and "multiculturalism" is window dressing and amounts to nothing if Canadian children are ignorant of the history of this country and the foundations of liberal democracies. > Even without government > funding, many faiths manage to do quite well offering Sunday school > which augments the public "core ethic" with those specific to the > parents' wishes. The key word is "augment", not " replace". If I ran a parochial school, I would have difficulty accepting public funding the way that it was proposed by John Tory because it would come with too many strings attached. Actually, I would have difficulty accepting those same conditions even in a secular school. Part of the reason why parents opt out of the public system is that the public system does not meet their expectations because it is geared towards the lowest common denominator. Another very practical reason is that many parents do not have access to daycare and when you compare the cost of private schooling of three year olds to daycare, the private school often is cheaper. It is NOT just about religion. It was with some bemusement that I read a letter to the editor in the Star by a (unionized of course) public school teacher who was incredulous that a Christian school that had been profiled spent an hour or so per day on religious education. She indicated that she had difficulty delivering the minimum curriculum and wondered how this school could spend so much time on religious education while still meeting the curriculum requirements. A teacher or administrator from another parochial school responded that it was because their students had longer school days. Even that school day was shorter than the days my children have in a secular, independent school. So why would parents who have the option of sending their children to the local public school opt for a secular private school, in many cases by making significant financial sacrifices? The motivation of parents who opt for private parochial schools is obvious, though I believe there is also an element of dissatisfaction with the academic standards in the public school system. In the case of my family, it is that we made a conscious decision that being multilingual was very important. My son has been studying in a bilingual (English/French) environment since he was three and today at 14, he is fluent in both languages and speaks, reads, and writes French as well as any of the children from France of his age we have had stay with us on exchange programs. In addition to that, at his school, they started on a third language in Grade 1, in his case, Mandarin. He is certainly not fluent in it but he can converse at a basic level and read and write that language too. My son will graduate from high school with at least a third more credits than he needs to gain admission into university. He has no electives or spares in high school (he's in Grade 11). He has to take all the sciences, all the maths, Sociology, Anthropology, and Psychology, History, Geography, Music, Visual Arts, Civics, and Economics, amongst other subjects. The one-size-fits-all public school system does a poor job of serving the needs of children like him who have the interest and ability to learn beyond what is in the too-easy curriculum. The only difference between parents who cannot afford to send their children to private schools and those who can is money. In places where vouchers were implemented, parents who could never have considered a private school previously, behaved no differently than parents who could afford private schools after the implementation of vouchers. Some elected to send their children to private schools while others did not. Good public schools thrived. Bad ones either got better or died. Isn't that how things should work? Teacher unions, the power of which must not to be underestimated, will of course use all kinds of incendiary language and claim the system will be gutted and all that. It is all rubbish. That has not happened in places where this has been implemented. Right now, we have the worst of all systems, one where there is no competition to the government and union monopoly on public schools. To send your child to Earl Haig Secondary School in North York, for example, you have to live in the catchment area in a home that is *older* than a certain age. In other words, if you move into one of the new condos in the area, tough luck. Your child cannot go there. How is that fair? There is quite a demand for that school because it has a reputation of being a good school. In a voucher system, that school would thrive. If they have room for 1000 students today, if 2000 students with vouchers came to them, they could use that funding to expand the school. That would probably be at the expense of some other school, let's say a bad public high school. I do not see how injecting that kind of competition into the system could be a bad thing. This is all very reminiscent of the so-called debate surrounding the health care system. The moment anyone dares to suggest that there may be room in the system for greater private delivery of publicly-funded services, the usual suspects will start blathering on about "two-tier health care" and start beating the straw man of the U.S. model. The reality is that we already have a two-tier system, one for people who can afford to just go to the U.S. to avoid wait times and another for those who cannot afford it. We maintain the fiction of universal coverage by delisting services and ration services by having wait times. We used to laugh at the ambitious Five Year Plans of the Soviets but few people seem to notice that we have imported that same discredited model of central economic planning into our health care and education systems, two programs that now consume the lion's share of tax revenues. > To this extent I am quite happy to promote and defend "secular humanism" > as a core ethic which represents the values of this particular society. > Religions are welcome to augment this, and even challenge it when they > wish, but I don' t believe that children should be brought up in > religious ghettos and only introduced into the mainstream near > adulthood. Anyone who considers themselves "non religious" will at least > have their kids in an environment that promotes a minimally useful > ethical code. > > Like it or not, the Charter of Rights essentially defines Canada as a > secular humanist country rather than one based on the dogma of any of > the mutually exclusive faiths. It accepts religions within its midst up > to and until the values of those religions adversely affect > non-believers. This characteristic is not shared by many countries but > it is ours. > > If I had my way, there would be a single public board, but school boards > would be encouraged to fund optional faith-based _supplemental_ programs > (not far different from the 'heritage language' programs funded by many > school boards right now). > >> I found the arguments put forth by all political parties wanting on >> this issue but in particular, I found the position of the Liberals >> most indefensible. McGuinty's use of such divisive language as >> "segregation" with respect to funding parochial schools was just >> reprehensible and offensive. > If the shoe fits... It may be offensive but it's still accurate. Why is it "segregation" when 53,000 children of various religions other than Catholic get funded but "inclusive" when 450,000 Catholic children get funded? >> His claim that stopping funding of Catholic schools was not possible >> due to constitutional obligations was just political cowardice. If he >> were truly concerned about "inclusiveness" and against "segregation", >> he would pledge to stop funding Catholic schools but of course that >> would be politically suicidal. > Eventually we can hope someone will have the courage. Certainly the NDP, > were it to be in a majority position, would consider the move... And the Greens, apparently. At least those are defensible positions. The positions of the Liberals especially, and the PCs to some extent, are both inconsistent and indefensible. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 19:22:20 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell Message-ID: The N800 (which runs Linux) normally sells at about US$400. But there have been sales. For example, TigerDirect.ca has been selling it for C$379, if I remember correctly (they may well be out of stock because I cannot see it now). Today, and perhaps today only (I cannot tell for sure), Dell is selling it for $349, including shipping. It is one of their secondary items on today's installment of their 10 days of deals: http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/days_of_deals?c=ca&cs=CABSD1&l=en&s=bsd I like my Nokia 770, but then I paid a lot less for it. The N800 is better in a number of ways (twice the RAM, expansion via up to two SD flashes instead of one mini MMC, current software support). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 19:54:13 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A5E56.4000801-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: | From: Ivan Avery Frey | So in the 1995 election with the PCs at 44.8%, the Liberals at 39.9%, and the | NDP at 12.6%, we might have had a Liberal minority government with the NDP | holding the balance of power. I don't understand how you (and several other people) talk as if changing the system would not change how people vote. It surely would. So you cannot take a past election's statistics and say what would have happened with MMP. You don't even know what parties would have been available. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 20:06:23 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:06:23 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Ivan Avery Frey > > | So in the 1995 election with the PCs at 44.8%, the Liberals at 39.9%, and the > | NDP at 12.6%, we might have had a Liberal minority government with the NDP > | holding the balance of power. > > I don't understand how you (and several other people) talk as if > changing the system would not change how people vote. It surely > would. So you cannot take a past election's statistics and say what > would have happened with MMP. You don't even know what parties would > have been available. Absolutely correct. MMP gives every elector 2 votes. One for the local riding candidate and a party vote. One could speculate that NDP might have received a greater share of the party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were probably strategic. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 17:12:30 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:12:30 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A8DBF.8020706-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > One could speculate that NDP might have received a greater share of the > party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were probably strategic. And one can also speculate that if the Queen had testicles, she'd be King. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 20:28:27 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A8DBF.8020706-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <263909.99658.qm@web88215.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Ivan Avery Frey > > > > | So in the 1995 election with the PCs at 44.8%, > the Liberals at 39.9%, and the > > | NDP at 12.6%, we might have had a Liberal > minority government with the NDP > > | holding the balance of power. > > > > I don't understand how you (and several other > people) talk as if > > changing the system would not change how people > vote. It surely > > would. So you cannot take a past election's > statistics and say what > > would have happened with MMP. You don't even know > what parties would > > have been available. > > Absolutely correct. MMP gives every elector 2 votes. > One for the local > riding candidate and a party vote. > > One could speculate that NDP might have received a > greater share of the > party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were > probably strategic. One could also easily speculate that NDP support would have collapsed and fallen through the floor as people who under MMP would have voted for the Green party (or other small party candidates) voted NDP as a way to get someone into Queen's Park who wasn't Grit or Tory. With MMP ALL bets are off, We know it will help small parties, and that there will be more small parties. Beyond that, who knows? It could effectively destroy the NDP, as normal NDP supporters turn to further left parties. Colin McGregor > Ivan. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:06:46 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 18:06:46 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <263909.99658.qm-Kg4S4JJQdT6B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <263909.99658.qm@web88215.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470AA9F6.3020906@utoronto.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: >> One could speculate that NDP might have received a >> greater share of the >> party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were >> probably strategic. > > One could also easily speculate that NDP support would > have collapsed and fallen through the floor as people > who under MMP would have voted for the Green party > (or other small party candidates) voted NDP as a way > to get someone into Queen's Park who wasn't Grit or > Tory. > > With MMP ALL bets are off, We know it will help small > parties, and that there will be more small parties. > Beyond that, who knows? It could effectively destroy > the NDP, as normal NDP supporters turn to further left > parties. There's a difference between reasonable speculation and outlandish nonsense, ;-) Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:11:17 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 18:11:17 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A64FE.8070909-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> Message-ID: <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > >> One could speculate that NDP might have received a greater share of the >> party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were probably strategic. > > And one can also speculate that if the Queen had testicles, she'd be King. And your point is? I'm not saying MMP is a panacea to what ails us. I just don't think anybody can dispute that MMP is a fairer way to elect a legislature, than FPTP. I mean come on 44.8% of the popular vote and over 50% of the seats in the legislature! Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:11:51 2007 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:11:51 -0400 Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071008221151.GA23145@amtoo.utoronto.ca> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 03:22:20PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Today, and perhaps today only (I cannot tell for sure), Dell is selling it > for $349, including shipping. It is one of their secondary items on > today's installment of their 10 days of deals: I ordered one, and at the last stage it said that this offer expires October 9th. So, today only. Act accordingly. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 215 Huron Street The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A2 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:33:01 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:33:01 -0400 Subject: Drupal with Postgresql & Mysql Message-ID: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> I had a little time over the weekend to convert my site (jamonation.com) from Mysql to Postgresql. I've been meaning to do it for a while. Notwithstanding the overall poor performance of the server in general (overloaded), I was surprised to find Postgresql outperformed Mysql with Drupal in every ab test I tried. I documented my cursory findings here: http://jamonation.com/node/734 I was under the impression Mysql was supposedly faster (overall) than Postgresql. The site wasn't using innodb with mysql (which may be where the speed comparison holds), but most cmses don't by default from what I've seen. I know a stock drupal install with APC and a maxclients of around 512 can serve up to 7000 pages/second having tested that out on a nice dual-quad core xeon. My ~35 page/second could use some optimizing, but that's for another day and I know what needs to be done there. So does anyone have any thoughts on Postgresql with Drupal or as compared speedwise with Mysql that would account for my findings? I ran the tests with php's APC module, and mysql's query cache set to 32 and 16mb respectively. I haven't touched anything in the default postgresql 8.2 setup. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:41:46 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470AAB05.3010000-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <633507.68555.qm@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > > > >> One could speculate that NDP might have received > a greater share of the > >> party vote, because a lot of liberal votes were > probably strategic. > > > > And one can also speculate that if the Queen had > testicles, she'd be King. > > And your point is? > > I'm not saying MMP is a panacea to what ails us. I > just don't think > anybody can dispute that MMP is a fairer way to > elect a legislature, > than FPTP. I mean come on 44.8% of the popular vote > and over 50% of the > seats in the legislature! > > Ivan. Sigh, Evan, myself and several others on this list have been disputing that claim that MMP is a "fairer" way to elect a legislature. Questions: - Is having MPPs that are NOT answerable to any identifiable electorate fairer? - If having several special interest parties that have as little as say 2% of the vote able to dictate against the wish of the vast majority of Ontarians fairer? In other words FPTP while imperfect is far fairer than the proposed MMP. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 22:57:47 2007 From: hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Henry de Valence) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:57:47 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470AAB05.3010000-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <200710081857.47299.hdevalence@gmail.com> On October 8, 2007 06:11:17 pm Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I'm not saying MMP is a panacea to what ails us. I just don't think > anybody can dispute that MMP is a fairer way to elect a legislature, > than FPTP. I mean come on 44.8% of the popular vote and over 50% of the > seats in the legislature! I agree. (Disclaimer: I can't vote because I'm underage, but I volunteer with the Green Party) In my opinion, this has been set up to fail. After all, the Liberals and the Conservatives are the ones with the least to gain and the most to lose. The question should not have been "MMP or FPTP?", it should have been something along the lines of "Should we look into some form of proportional representation", because I think that (as much as MMP would benefit the party I like) it's not a good system. I like the two votes and the idea of fairer representation. I don't like having some party hack stay in power for basically forever as long as they kiss enough ass. I don't like the idea of having single-issue parties manipulate the balance of power. And I don't like the idea of having members who aren't accountable to their constituents. I like the idea of MMP, but it's badly implemented. Then again, I personally feel like it's been set up to fail. So your choice is (as usual) to vote for what you feel is the lesser evil: a badly implemented but fairer MMP system or a well implemented but unfair FPTP system. -- Harry de Valence -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 23:15:17 2007 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:15:17 -0400 Subject: Drupal with Postgresql & Mysql In-Reply-To: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470ABA05.1000204@visibleassets.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > I had a little time over the weekend to convert my site (jamonation.com) > from Mysql to Postgresql. I've been meaning to do it for a while. > Notwithstanding the overall poor performance of the server in general > (overloaded), I was surprised to find Postgresql outperformed Mysql > with Drupal in every ab test I tried. I documented my cursory findings > here: http://jamonation.com/node/734 > > I was under the impression Mysql was supposedly faster (overall) than > Postgresql. The site wasn't using innodb with mysql (which may be where > the speed comparison holds), but most cmses don't by default from what > I've seen. > That's a myth pg being slower that is, and innodb for mysql is even slower. > I know a stock drupal install with APC and a maxclients of around 512 > can serve up to 7000 pages/second having tested that out on a nice > dual-quad core xeon. My ~35 page/second could use some optimizing, but > that's for another day and I know what needs to be done there. > > So does anyone have any thoughts on Postgresql with Drupal or as > compared speedwise with Mysql that would account for my findings? I ran > the tests with php's APC module, and mysql's query cache set to 32 and > 16mb respectively. I haven't touched anything in the default postgresql > 8.2 setup. > if you want it to go even faster then setup postgresql to get 25% of memory for shared buffers and set effective cache to 75% of memory. > Jamon > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 23:47:13 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:47:13 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470AAB05.3010000-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470AC181.8030804@telly.org> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: >> And one can also speculate that if the Queen had testicles, she'd be >> King. > > And your point is? That dumb speculation, especially that which engages in wishful thinking, is pointless. > I'm not saying MMP is a panacea to what ails us. I just don't think > anybody can dispute that MMP is a fairer way to elect a legislature, > than FPTP. Then you're not listening. I dispute that MMP is a fairer way to elect a legislature. In mail throughout today I've explained why. A system that penalizes mainstream parties, independents and tiny parties in order to benefit certain small parties -- while increasing the complexity of voting and forcing upon the legislature a new entourage of automaton MPPs with no community accountability -- is not a fairer way. >From the point of view of supporters of the NDP and Greens, as well as those who seem to think that majority government is a bad thing on principle, MMP is very beneficial. From most other points of view, MMP just sucks. > I mean come on 44.8% of the popular vote and over 50% of the seats in > the legislature! In a two-way race, that would indeed tick me off. In a three-or-more-way race, I'm quite cool with that. My general thoughts on this issue were inspired by Winston Churchill: First Past the Post is the worst way to choose a government -- except for all the others. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 01:01:51 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:01:51 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470AC181.8030804-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <2638AF95-90B6-4548-A03B-597426030B0E@millsgarthson.ca> <99a6c38f0710071954u9a5c9fbh620f7952e0e344c9@mail.gmail.com> <4709A507.7080106@telly.org> <470A50AC.7090407@utoronto.ca> <470A5843.8090900@telly.org> <470A5E56.4000801@utoronto.ca> <470A8DBF.8020706@utoronto.ca> <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> <470AC181.8030804@telly.org> Message-ID: <470AD2FF.6070205@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I dispute that MMP is a fairer way to elect a legislature. In mail > throughout today I've explained why. > A system that penalizes mainstream parties, independents and tiny > parties in order to benefit certain small parties -- while increasing > the complexity of voting and forcing upon the legislature a new > entourage of automaton MPPs with no community accountability -- is not a > fairer way. If you don't like the parties' list mpps, you don't have to vote for that party. > >>From the point of view of supporters of the NDP and Greens, as well as > those who seem to think that majority government is a bad thing on > principle, MMP is very beneficial. From most other points of view, MMP > just sucks. If the voters want majority government then they need to give that party 50%+1 or greater of the popular vote. I have nothing against majority government. > >> I mean come on 44.8% of the popular vote and over 50% of the seats in >> the legislature! > > In a two-way race, that would indeed tick me off. In a three-or-more-way > race, I'm quite cool with that. The logic of this statement escapes me. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 00:36:42 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:36:42 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A7DD9.8060106-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> <4709496F.5030600@telly.org> <470A7DD9.8060106@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <470ACD1A.6070503@telly.org> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> With few exceptions (Buddhism notably among them), religions tend to be >> mutually exclusive. And almost by definition, they must define their >> particular faith-based ethics as superior -- more divine, if you would >> -- than those of other religions. >> >> What you call Secular Humanism is a religion only to the extent that it >> has a core ethic, and its own view of human nature. Unlike most >> religions, it is not mutually exclusive. > > That presumes other religions do not accept other faiths as being > legitimate. Some of course do not but Buddhism is not the only one > that recognizes other faiths. The very first two commandments (which are combined by Catholics and Lutherans as the first commandment) deal with mutual exclusivity. No other gods. No idol worship. So much for Jews and Christians. And while I know less about Islam, there have been stories that indicate a ... lack of tolerance ... for those who recognize other gods besides Allah. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52004 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Renouncing-Islam.php > All that "inclusiveness" and "multiculturalism" is window dressing and > amounts to nothing if Canadian children are ignorant of the history of > this country and the foundations of liberal democracies. I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I just happen to think that Multiculturalism is a gift that Canada uniquely enjoys, and it's a resource we have barely begun to exploit. I've had the good fortune to travel to every continent and many, many places -- my Toronto background has certainly helped me to work in a very broad range of cultures and attitudes. (Pretty strange to be served Peking Duck in a Beijing restaurant and recall that it wasn't as good as stuff I'd had in Markham.) It's not an absolute necessity, but it sure ain't window dressing either. > Part of the reason why parents opt out of the public system is that > the public system does not meet their expectations because it is > geared towards the lowest common denominator. Another way to say this is that every other school can expel students but the public system has to acommodate all who show up. > Why is it "segregation" when 53,000 children of various religions > other than Catholic get funded but "inclusive" when 450,000 Catholic > children get funded? It isn't. Catholic schools are also about segregation IMO. I've personally been consistent on that. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 01:28:56 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:28:56 -0400 Subject: fsck doesn't like LABEL= in fstab Message-ID: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311@mail.gmail.com> What with my hard drive adventures recently, I decided it was time to muck with my /etc/fstab some so that USB devices would start showing up at coherent mount points. I thought the right method would be using "UUID=..." statements in fstab, but then I found "LABEL=..." which seemed more practical. However, I've had the same issue with both: on boot, fsck tries to check the UUID or LABEL devices (which are generally not connected), despite "noauto" params, and then stalls the boot process suggesting I go fix it. Here's the /var/log/fsck/checkfs : Log of fsck -C -V -R -A -a Mon Oct 8 17:04:22 2007 fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007) Checking all file systems. [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /fc] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 /dev/hda1 /: clean, 178437/1310720 files, 932982/2620595 blocks [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec1] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec01 fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec01' [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec2] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec02 fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec02' fsck died with exit status 8 The corresponding lines in /etc/fstab : /dev/hda1 /fc ext3 defaults,noauto 0 2 LABEL=Vantec01 /mnt/vantec1 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 LABEL=Vantec02 /mnt/vantec2 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 So what's the problem here? If I use "/dev/sda1" instead of "LABEL=Vantec01" fsck ignores the statement because it says "noauto" (see below) but change it to "LABEL=..." or "UUID=..." and I have a fairly nasty issue. Although writing this did make me notice that /fc is "noauto" and gets checked. But I have other lines: /dev/sda1 /mnt/usba auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 /dev/sdb1 /mnt/usbb auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 Which are ignored. I'm a bit confused. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 03:09:51 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:09:51 -0400 Subject: fsck doesn't like LABEL= in fstab In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280710082009r16bbd418la5e1683479793ed8@mail.gmail.com> SOLVED, see below. On 10/8/07, Giles Orr wrote: > What with my hard drive adventures recently, I decided it was time to > muck with my /etc/fstab some so that USB devices would start showing > up at coherent mount points. I thought the right method would be > using "UUID=..." statements in fstab, but then I found "LABEL=..." > which seemed more practical. However, I've had the same issue with > both: on boot, fsck tries to check the UUID or LABEL devices (which > are generally not connected), despite "noauto" params, and then stalls > the boot process suggesting I go fix it. Here's the > /var/log/fsck/checkfs : > > Log of fsck -C -V -R -A -a > Mon Oct 8 17:04:22 2007 > > fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007) > Checking all file systems. > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /fc] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 /dev/hda1 > /: clean, 178437/1310720 files, 932982/2620595 blocks > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec1] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec01 > fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec01' > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec2] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec02 > fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec02' > fsck died with exit status 8 > > The corresponding lines in /etc/fstab : > > /dev/hda1 /fc ext3 defaults,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec01 /mnt/vantec1 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec02 /mnt/vantec2 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 > > So what's the problem here? If I use "/dev/sda1" instead of > "LABEL=Vantec01" fsck ignores the statement because it says "noauto" > (see below) but change it to "LABEL=..." or "UUID=..." and I have a > fairly nasty issue. Although writing this did make me notice that /fc > is "noauto" and gets checked. But I have other lines: > > /dev/sda1 /mnt/usba auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > /dev/sdb1 /mnt/usbb auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > > Which are ignored. I'm a bit confused. "man fstab" is a wonderful thing: if I set the "LABEL=" lines to end in "0 0" they won't be checked. Sorry for the static. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 02:52:25 2007 From: ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Terry Tanski) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:52:25 -0400 Subject: fsck doesn't like LABEL= in fstab In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470AECE9.5040405@cogeco.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > > The corresponding lines in /etc/fstab : > > /dev/hda1 /fc ext3 defaults,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec01 /mnt/vantec1 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec02 /mnt/vantec2 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 > > So what's the problem here? If I use "/dev/sda1" instead of > "LABEL=Vantec01" fsck ignores the statement because it says "noauto" > (see below) but change it to "LABEL=..." or "UUID=..." and I have a > fairly nasty issue. Although writing this did make me notice that /fc > is "noauto" and gets checked. But I have other lines: > > /dev/sda1 /mnt/usba auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > /dev/sdb1 /mnt/usbb auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > > Which are ignored. I'm a bit confused. Notice that the first 3 lines have a fs-passno of 2 (last number in the fstab line). The last 2 lines have that value set to 0. Change the last number from 2 to 0 on the LABEL... lines and fsck will skip them. The man page for fsck and /etc/fstab will yield more information. BTW, specifying noauto tells mount not to mount these filesystems automatically ... it has nothing to do with fsck. Terry -- Terry Tanski, BSc RHCE Email: ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 00:00:06 2007 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPTP vs MMPy In-Reply-To: <633507.68555.qm-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <633507.68555.qm@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Colin McGregor wrote: ... > - If having several special interest parties that have > as little as say 2% of the vote able to dictate > against the wish of the vast majority of Ontarians > fairer? The proposal requires a minimum of 3% of the popular vote to have anyone elected. I haven't done the math, but I cannot imagine any of the smaller parties getting more than 1 or 2 seats each under this scheme -- not enough to dictate anything, only to ensure representation of a significant portion of the electorate. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 13:06:35 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:06:35 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47079483.1010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <7ac602420710090606t761cdd9cl4ccf321fb22172b0@mail.gmail.com> I realized, after all the recent discussion this thread generated, that I have another reason for voting for MMP: I think the current system was designed for one use but is actually being used for another. What I mean is, I think most people vote for a party, but the system seems to have been designed for people to vote for a candidate. You may disagree with either or both parts of that sentence--my wife doesn't think the majority of voters are voting for a party, but the few people I've actually talked to about it agree with me so I assume I might be on to something. I think the existing system was designed for vote-for-a-candidate for a number of reasons, but the most obvious one is that the ballot places greater emphasis on the individual candidates' names than on their parties (and my family actually told me the parties aren't even listed, which conflicts with my memory of the last election, but either way, my point stands). I tend to vote for or against the leaders of a party and I don't really know or care what my local candidate says or thinks because I assume that he or she will be following the party line and that my riding will be served within the limits of my local candidate's party affiliation. If you agree with what I've said so far, then I think you can see that the existing system doesn't seem to be well-designed for the purpose to which the electorate keep putting it. On the other hand, MMP _does_ fit the job pretty well--we'll explicitly vote for a party and, if you happen to think one of your local candidates is likely to work harder for your riding than all others, you can choose the best candidate, too. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 14:20:40 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:20:40 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest Message-ID: <408ae1640710090720j7bff0a01oa5617abb5efcd476@mail.gmail.com> ** special bonus reminder for TLUG-list. Advanced registration $40 ends Wednesday at noon. Tickets will be available at the door for $60. ** PRESS RELEASE Toronto, Ontario - 09 October 2007: Ontario Linux Fest holds its inaugural conference in Toronto, Ontario at the Toronto Congress Centre at 650 Dixon Road on Saturday, October 13, 2007. Free Software leaders including Jon 'maddog' Hall of Linux International, Theodore Ts'o of IBM and Louis Suarez-Potts of OpenOffice.org and many others are presenting topics of interest to Linux and Open Source enthusiasts and the general public alike. Learn about the latest innovations in computer software, flexible telephony, software freedom and your rights, and meet the luminaries who are revolutionizing our digital world. The Ontario Linux Fest is a day-long conference on Saturday 13 October 2007 at the Toronto Congress Centre. Presentations run from 8:30am to 5:30pm. It is organized by members of the Linux community for the Linux community and the general public. Generous sponsorship from Google, Research In Motion, IBM, Novell and other Free Software supporters make Ontario Linux Fest possible. Free Software refers to computer software that protects the rights of every computer user. It can be used, studied, modified, repaired, improved and redistributed to other computer users. John Van Ostrand The Ontario Linux Fest 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 Waterloo, Ontario CA N2L 5C6 Phone: 877-TUX-FEST Phone: 866-883-1172 x 5102 Fax: 866-883-8533 sponsorship-Q2zETkUEcRyw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org www.onlinux.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 14:39:34 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:39:34 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> Message-ID: <20071009143934.GD4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 02:10:36PM -0400, Jon Thiele wrote: > From the website: > > "Tax dollars paying for 22 more politicians and their staff at Queen's Park" > > Well, that does it for me. I know exactly(!) how I'm going to vote... But it might be money well spent if you can avoid things like Mike Harris and the like. That was really expensive. If I could vote I would very much be voting for this new system. It seems much much better than the current system. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 14:45:55 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:45:55 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <633507.68555.qm-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> <633507.68555.qm@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071009144555.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 06:41:46PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Sigh, Evan, myself and several others on this list > have been disputing that claim that MMP is a "fairer" > way to elect a legislature. Questions: > > - Is having MPPs that are NOT answerable to any > identifiable electorate fairer? > > - If having several special interest parties that have > as little as say 2% of the vote able to dictate > against the wish of the vast majority of Ontarians > fairer? So if 3% of the population of ontario votes for a party, they still don't deserver to have even 1 person representing that view in government? (2% won't do it under the proposed MPP system). And the 1 person certainly isn't going to push the big parties around. 3% of the population is actually a lot of people. > In other words FPTP while imperfect is far fairer than > the proposed MMP. Ehm, no. I don't think so. Small groups have rights too. It isn't fair that only people who vote for large parties should have any say in things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 14:54:54 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:54:54 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <200710081857.47299.hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470A64FE.8070909@telly.org> <470AAB05.3010000@utoronto.ca> <200710081857.47299.hdevalence@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071009145454.GF4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 06:57:47PM -0400, Henry de Valence wrote: > I agree. (Disclaimer: I can't vote because I'm underage, but I volunteer with > the Green Party) > > In my opinion, this has been set up to fail. After all, the Liberals and the > Conservatives are the ones with the least to gain and the most to lose. > > The question should not have been "MMP or FPTP?", it should have been > something along the lines of "Should we look into some form of proportional > representation", because I think that (as much as MMP would benefit the party > I like) it's not a good system. > > I like the two votes and the idea of fairer representation. > I don't like having some party hack stay in power for basically forever as > long as they kiss enough ass. I don't think they can. No party is garuanteed to get any popular vote seats. After all if you do well in the ridings, you will get lots of those seats, and it is quite likely you will get none of the proportional seats since those go to the parties with popular votes but not that many seats. So the safe bet for someone is to go in a riding that loves their party (and preferably themselves). In order to ensure someone on a list oc candidates gets in would require that you get lots of votes while simultaniously avoiding winning a lot of ridings (which of course are very useful seats for the party too, so why would you want to not win those). After all lets say party L gets 40% of the popular vote and gets 50% of the riding seats. How many of the proportional seats do they get? Most likely none at all. If party M gets 35% of the vote but only 25% of the riding seats, well they would get a good chunk of the proportional seats to make up for it. What would happen is that smaller parties would run their best candidates on the list so that people voting for the party would get to elect those people, while the actual candidates out in the ridings that everyone knows has no chance of getting elected aren't that important. The large parties would have to run their important people in ridings instead where they are most likely to win since they can't rely on getting the proportional seats. This makes the big parties have to keep their members accountable to the ridings, while the smaller parties will have to do good with their list candidates in order to maintain enough popular votes to keep those list candidates elected. So everyone will be responsible to voters, whether by riding or by popular vote. > I don't like the idea of having single-issue parties manipulate the balance of > power. > And I don't like the idea of having members who aren't accountable to their > constituents. Unless you have VERY even split between two parties, an individual seat isn't going to hold the balance of power. > I like the idea of MMP, but it's badly implemented. Then again, I personally > feel like it's been set up to fail. > > So your choice is (as usual) to vote for what you feel is the lesser evil: a > badly implemented but fairer MMP system or a well implemented but unfair FPTP > system. How is FPTP well implemented? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:07:43 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:07:43 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470932A7.3000900-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710071352.43066.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <007301c8090d$5c6b9b80$f800a8c0@plex31> <99a6c38f0710071126n791e41aeia00fefac4e2e3f34@mail.gmail.com> <470932A7.3000900@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20071009150743.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 03:25:27PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Actually, no. I would rather that all schools get funded using a voucher > system, regardless of whether they are "faith-based" (I guess parochial > was too big a word) or not. Star columnist Haroon Siddiqi has an > interesting analysis of the backlash against funding of parochial > schools here: . I > cannot say that I disagree with him judging by the comments I've read > on-line. > > I used to be very much opposed to funding of any parochial schools, > including the Catholic system, a few years ago but have since changed my > mind. It seems to me that the most ardent opponents of funding of > parochial schools profess a faith, though they don't call it as such, of > secular humanism. Quite often, these same people are the ones who argue > that Christmas should be called "Winter Festival", or some such > ridiculous euphemism, and Christmas trees should be removed from public > buildings. More often than not, the people who promote these views are > not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims but rather people who a generation ago > would have been called "Christians" and now consider themselves to be > agnostics or atheists. They pursue the promotion of their beliefs with > as much zeal as any "fundamentalist" of any other religion. Therefore, > funding only the public system funds only one particular religion, that > of secular humanists, which is just as unjust as the status quo. Of > course not all parents who send their children to public schools fall > into the category of secular humanists but that is no different than > non-Catholics who send their children to Catholic schools. Schools are run by the government. Religion and politics should be kept seperate, hence schools should be kept seperate from religion too. Schools are most certainly not secular humanist. Many schools are christmas decorations and other such things, since that is what happens at certain times of the year in this country. Those that aren't christian for the most part just try to ignore it (with probably about as much luck as anyone has ignoring haloween or valentines day). A few vocal nuts try to make everything politically correct by wanting to rename everything, but are just a small annoying minority and are far from representative of anyone. If the government truly believes that reduction of duplication is more efficient (and they did make mega toronto after all for that reason), then they should elliminate funding to all but one school system, since obviously it is more efficient to run only one school system without duplication. For our government to propose anything else would be hypocritical. > I found the arguments put forth by all political parties wanting on this > issue but in particular, I found the position of the Liberals most > indefensible. McGuinty's use of such divisive language as "segregation" > with respect to funding parochial schools was just reprehensible and > offensive. His claim that stopping funding of Catholic schools was not > possible due to constitutional obligations was just political cowardice. > If he were truly concerned about "inclusiveness" and against > "segregation", he would pledge to stop funding Catholic schools but of > course that would be politically suicidal. There is also the minor > detail that he and his Education Minister, Kathleen Wynne, who > represents my riding, both supported extending funding to all parochial > schools in the name of fairness before they were elected. They attack > the very same position that they themselves had promoted. Did they > change their minds? If so, I can respect that as long as they put forth > credible arguments but they pretend that they never supported that > position. That is just hypocritical. Well I think changing the constitution would be the right thing to do. If people want their children educated in religion, they can either do it themselves (which probably works best, and is apparently supported by scripture in a number of relitions), or maybe they can use sunday schools or the equivelant. Leave schools to educate children, and let the parents take care of any faith based morals and other such things outside of school. > I don't understand how hearing "the views" of more politicians is going > to make this any more a representative democracy. How are more MPPs > going to ensure we don't have scandals and corruption? Why not have > twice as many politicians then? That should be twice as representative. You don't need more, you need better and more accountable. if all you need is the most votes in half the ridings to get a free ride for 4 yeats, then you are not really accountable to everyone, only to a large number of people in half the ridings. It is currently possible to get a majority government with only about 25% of the popular vote. Not very likely but still possible. 35 to 45% of the popular vote on the other hand can easily be enough. So even of 2/3 of the voters didn't want you, you still get ultimate control. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:38:12 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:38:12 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47081E42.7050303-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710061829.45399.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <47081E42.7050303@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20071009153812.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 07:46:10PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > And I might point out that Canada's model of government is based upon > the Westminster parliamentary system, which has been around much longer > than just about any other democratic form of government. The > ineffectiveness and the seeming propensity of otherwise intelligent men > and women turning into blathering idiots once they are in office has > more to do with an uninformed citizenry with short attention spans than > some feature of our electoral system. In other words, as long as > political contests are nothing more than beauty contests and with adept > spin doctoring, a party can convince the electorate that their otherwise > indefensible positions on certain issues are the right positions, we get > exactly the governments we deserve. I do not believe MMP will change any > of that and will have some unintended consequences. Now for how long has the Wesminster system allowed your average public to vote? I suspect (although I am not sure) that it used to be only the lords in britain that got to vote and run for parliment in the past. Perhaps they thought that way only well informed people would get to vote. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:42:54 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:42:54 -0400 Subject: Drupal with Postgresql & Mysql In-Reply-To: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20071009154254.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 06:33:01PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I had a little time over the weekend to convert my site (jamonation.com) > from Mysql to Postgresql. I've been meaning to do it for a while. > Notwithstanding the overall poor performance of the server in general > (overloaded), I was surprised to find Postgresql outperformed Mysql > with Drupal in every ab test I tried. I documented my cursory findings > here: http://jamonation.com/node/734 > > I was under the impression Mysql was supposedly faster (overall) than > Postgresql. The site wasn't using innodb with mysql (which may be where > the speed comparison holds), but most cmses don't by default from what > I've seen. > > I know a stock drupal install with APC and a maxclients of around 512 > can serve up to 7000 pages/second having tested that out on a nice > dual-quad core xeon. My ~35 page/second could use some optimizing, but > that's for another day and I know what needs to be done there. > > So does anyone have any thoughts on Postgresql with Drupal or as > compared speedwise with Mysql that would account for my findings? I ran > the tests with php's APC module, and mysql's query cache set to 32 and > 16mb respectively. I haven't touched anything in the default postgresql > 8.2 setup. You actually have to go back to the 6.x or early 7.x days to find postgres being slow. They have done a lot of good work speeding things up and it does perform very well today. So I am not surprised. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:44:19 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:44:19 -0400 Subject: fsck doesn't like LABEL= in fstab In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710081828o7a71bf54g51ac9c9a1b7ee311@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071009154419.GJ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 09:28:56PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > What with my hard drive adventures recently, I decided it was time to > muck with my /etc/fstab some so that USB devices would start showing > up at coherent mount points. I thought the right method would be > using "UUID=..." statements in fstab, but then I found "LABEL=..." > which seemed more practical. However, I've had the same issue with > both: on boot, fsck tries to check the UUID or LABEL devices (which > are generally not connected), despite "noauto" params, and then stalls > the boot process suggesting I go fix it. Here's the > /var/log/fsck/checkfs : > > Log of fsck -C -V -R -A -a > Mon Oct 8 17:04:22 2007 > > fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007) > Checking all file systems. > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /fc] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 /dev/hda1 > /: clean, 178437/1310720 files, 932982/2620595 blocks > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec1] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec01 > fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec01' > [/sbin/fsck.ext3 (1) -- /mnt/vantec2] fsck.ext3 -a -C0 LABEL=Vantec02 > fsck.ext3: Unable to resolve 'LABEL=Vantec02' > fsck died with exit status 8 > > The corresponding lines in /etc/fstab : > > /dev/hda1 /fc ext3 defaults,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec01 /mnt/vantec1 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 > LABEL=Vantec02 /mnt/vantec2 ext3 user,noauto 0 2 The last column controls fsck on boot. Set it to 0 if you don't want fsck run at boot on those drives. > So what's the problem here? If I use "/dev/sda1" instead of > "LABEL=Vantec01" fsck ignores the statement because it says "noauto" > (see below) but change it to "LABEL=..." or "UUID=..." and I have a > fairly nasty issue. Although writing this did make me notice that /fc > is "noauto" and gets checked. But I have other lines: > > /dev/sda1 /mnt/usba auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > /dev/sdb1 /mnt/usbb auto user,noauto,noatime 0 0 > > Which are ignored. I'm a bit confused. Those have 0 in the last column, which is why they are ignored. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:50:06 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:50:06 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <47079483.1010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 09:58:27AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > So, how're you guys voting? FPTP or MMP? > > I live in Timmins and it seems that MMP sucks, not because we get to > vote for the local guy and the party separately (which I like) but > because we will lose ridings and because about 45% (!) of the seats will > be 'list' and up to the discretion of the parties. I wonder if the South > (what we call you up here) have set up things so that MMP will be more > unattractive than it need be, so that the status quo (which put > unpopular premiers like Mike Harris in power) will remain. I guess the > gamble is that we're stupid enough to accept, "If you don't like FPTP > then why didn't you vote MMP?" Apples and oranges - only the apple is > organic (but run over by a car) and the orange is genetically modified > and pesticide laden. I don't love to see my half-baked ideas in print - > I'm trying to get some more mature perspective if there's any on this list. 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only 39 of them available) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:53:07 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:53:07 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 10:36:32AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Well, if you're inclined to be at all scared of any of the fringes, > then that's a disqualifying factor for MMP, whether the fear is of the > Green Party or of the Communist part or the Family Coalition or > Libertarian parties. > > I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties appalling amounts of > power/control, as majority governments would be replaced by a need to > build coalitions where the last little bits to head in would get power > out of proportion to their representation. That's the sort of thing > that has happened in places like Italy and Israel... OK, how many people are going to vote for one of those parties? If 5% vote for them (which would surprise me), then they could get perhaps 5 seats. Maybe not irrelevant, but not a huge power either. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 15:56:33 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:56:33 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710090606t761cdd9cl4ccf321fb22172b0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <7ac602420710090606t761cdd9cl4ccf321fb22172b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071009155633.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 09:06:35AM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote: > I realized, after all the recent discussion this thread generated, > that I have another reason for voting for MMP: I think the current > system was designed for one use but is actually being used for > another. What I mean is, I think most people vote for a party, but > the system seems to have been designed for people to vote for a > candidate. You may disagree with either or both parts of that > sentence--my wife doesn't think the majority of voters are voting for > a party, but the few people I've actually talked to about it agree > with me so I assume I might be on to something. > > I think the existing system was designed for vote-for-a-candidate for > a number of reasons, but the most obvious one is that the ballot > places greater emphasis on the individual candidates' names than on > their parties (and my family actually told me the parties aren't even > listed, which conflicts with my memory of the last election, but > either way, my point stands). I tend to vote for or against the > leaders of a party and I don't really know or care what my local > candidate says or thinks because I assume that he or she will be > following the party line and that my riding will be served within the > limits of my local candidate's party affiliation. The polling station will have a list of which parties the candidates are part of, but it is not on the ballot as far as I know (I haven't seen one myself). > If you agree with what I've said so far, then I think you can see that > the existing system doesn't seem to be well-designed for the purpose > to which the electorate keep putting it. On the other hand, MMP > _does_ fit the job pretty well--we'll explicitly vote for a party and, > if you happen to think one of your local candidates is likely to work > harder for your riding than all others, you can choose the best > candidate, too. It seems many people are affraid of actually getting what they have been trying to get all along. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 16:06:57 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:06:57 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071009155006.GK4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <470BA721.60103@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end > up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more > of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats > (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only > 39 of them available) > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. As such, they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause of small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary limits on anything. And, as I mentioned before, MMP is designed to work against independent candidates as well as really small parties. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 16:25:08 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:25:08 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071009155307.GL4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <470BAB64.9060003@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties appalling amounts of >> power/control, as majority governments would be replaced by a need to >> build coalitions where the last little bits to head in would get power >> out of proportion to their representation. That's the sort of thing >> that has happened in places like Italy and Israel... >> > > OK, how many people are going to vote for one of those parties? If 5% > vote for them (which would surprise me), then they could get perhaps 5 > seats. Maybe not irrelevant, but not a huge power either. > Take a look around you. Small parties (such as Shas in Israel) have huge amounts of control in coalition minority governments -- which will be the rule rather the exception under MMP. When the mainstream parties are weakened and fringe parties empowered beyond their numbers as MMP would do, the very act of building a government after the election can be a national nightmare. For an extremely current and relevant example, look at what's happening NOW in Belgium. They had their election in June and the parties STILL cannot between them create a single coalition capable of leading. That' s right. Belgium has had no government for more than 100 days, and prospects for a quick settlement are 50/50. Similar has happened in other countries which have gone to 'fairer' systems. Legislative gridlock is practically invited in systems that require frequent coalition building, as MMP will do. The MMP system has its own inequities, which replace the inequities of the FPTP system. In addition we have parlamentarians with accountability only to the party and not the public, and a more complex election process that offers neither quality nor stability of government. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 16:26:34 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:26:34 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BA721.60103-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> Message-ID: Fully agree. FPTP has one serious advantage over other systems: it is most transparent and easy to understand, therefore most like to be considered "just". Mixed systems take the power from people and give it in hands of politicians, therefore you will seldom hear opposition of politicians towards its introduction. Have in mind that after the second world war some sort of mixed systems have been imposed in these countries that lost the war. The reason? Well, te winning west wanted simply to have more political control over these countries. Till now the mixed sytem exist in Germany, and only not so long ago Japan and Italy were able to introduced more democratic ones. zb. On 10/9/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end > > up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more > > of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats > > (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only > > 39 of them available) > > > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give > the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. As such, > they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause of > small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of > " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. > > While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary > limits on anything. > > And, as I mentioned before, MMP is designed to work against independent > candidates as well as really small parties. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:17:32 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 13:17:32 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BAB64.9060003-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BAB64.9060003@telly.org> Message-ID: <470BB7AC.9050107@dinamis.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: [snip] > That' s right. Belgium has had no government for more than 100 days, and > prospects for a quick settlement are 50/50. Similar has happened in > other countries which have gone to 'fairer' systems. Legislative > gridlock is practically invited in systems that require frequent > coalition building, as MMP will do. [snip] It is much better to have strong majority governments so that they can spend six months debating "dangerous dog" legislation :) -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:21:43 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:21:43 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <4707B3B6.5010602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071009132143.7abc1a0f@node1.freeyourmachine.org> John McGregor wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > I'd tend to expect MMP to give fringe parties appalling amounts of > > power/control, as majority governments would be replaced by a need to > > build coalitions where the last little bits to head in would get power > > out of proportion to their representation. That's the sort of thing > > that has happened in places like Italy and Israel... > My concern runs is that an unpopular governing party could remain in > power by vastly increasing it's plurality in its traditionally 'safe' > seats. eg. the Liberals in Toronto and London; the NDP in areas with > large numbers of organized labour like Windsor, Sudbury and Oshawa; and > the Conservatives in the 905 area; -- could all get out the vote in > order to offset their performance at the polls in areas where they are > distinctly unpopular. For anyone who is just beginning to follow this discussion (like me) and who is tempted to read the numerous posts below (like I did), let me sum up what I read in terms of the arguments against MMP: 1. Ontario will be turned into some bizarre negative world where politicians will be even _less_ accountable than they are now. 2. If any shape-shifting brain-eating aliens were to land in Ontario, they would only have to get a couple of votes in order to force us to begin construction of the giant brain-extraction towers. 3. We might become more like Switzerland. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: Hey, that's my last beer, you bastard. I'll kill you! Fry: I'll kill you too, buddy, I'll kill you too. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:36:09 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:36:09 -0400 Subject: Scanner recommendations Message-ID: <20071009173609.GE15609@watson-wilson.ca> Hi Folks, I'm in need of a scanner. This is mostly for scanning signed documents but I imagine I'll use it for scanning photos also. My brief research turned up the SANE project. It is still the preferred method of using scanners on Linux? Can anyone recommend a good make and model of scanner that they use? -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 24 days http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:39:46 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:39:46 -0400 Subject: Scanner recommendations In-Reply-To: <20071009173609.GE15609-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071009173609.GE15609@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20071009173946.GN4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 01:36:09PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm in need of a scanner. This is mostly for scanning signed documents > but I imagine I'll use it for scanning photos also. My brief research > turned up the SANE project. It is still the preferred method of using > scanners on Linux? Can anyone recommend a good make and model of > scanner that they use? Sane is the way to go. If it works with sane, it works with everything since that is simply _the_ way it is done in linux. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:41:03 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <944364.39364.qm-PUkK9LDfIAyB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4707B3B6.5010602@rogers.com> <944364.39364.qm@web88214.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071009134103.3a68ba17@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Colin McGregor wrote: > A secondary related (but still significant) concern is > that it takes power away from the people and gives it > to the political parties. Let us assume you have a Ms. > X who is seen by the VERY vast majority of people as a > total dirt bag. Let us also assume that Ms. X is loved > by the power brokers of party Y (ie: she knows where > ALL the political bodies are buried (she helped bury > many of them) and is an effective fund raiser). Well > under FPTP Ms. X is most unlikely to get to the > legislature, but under MMP, the party can put her into > office and the general public can not say boo about it > all. You mean _unlike_ someone like Sheila Copps? Stockwell Day? Or the dozens of people who are parachuted into ridings because they know their party has not lost an election there since Confederation? I've read this exact point (and I mean word for word) from a half dozen different Conservative shills in the media, and not one has ever been able to explain how someone who gets no votes can still sit in the legislature. As before, if you don't like them, don't vote for them. As usual with this kind of hysterical propaganda, the exact opposite is true. Parties will be even less likely to keep running highly unpopular candidates, since they will, under MMP, have to work a lot harder than they do now to maintain any kind of significant presence in the Legislature. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Listen, Bender, where's your bathroom?" -Fry "Bath what?" -Bender "Bathroom." -Fry "What room?" -Bender "Bathroom!" -Fry "What what?" Bender "Ah, nevermind." -Fry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:49:17 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 13:49:17 -0400 Subject: Scanner recommendations Message-ID: <470BBF1D.1040304@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > It is still the preferred method of using > scanners on Linux? Can anyone recommend a good make and model of > scanner that they use? As far as I know, SANE is still s.o.p. in linux. I have a Canon Lide 25 scanner that I bought at Staples for under $90.00. It works great and Mepis 6.0 recognized it without any intervention from me. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:04:12 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:04:12 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> Message-ID: <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> OK, so the subject line was a bit extreme. But there's been something bothering me about this whole debate that I haven' t been able to put my finger on, and even here I'm not sure if I'm expressing it well. So I'll do my best and hope it makes some sense. Currently, MPPs are not robots. Sometimes they vote against party discipline. Sometimes they change parties in mid-session. Sometimes they force free votes on issues that transcend party politics. Sometimes they face local backlash when a province-wide initiative severely threatens their riding. Sometimes they advance local needs in caucus to provide context to province-wide programs. Sometimes they resign, or die while in office, and by-elections need to be called. Sometimes they may even be persuaded by debate on the floor of the legislature. And sometimes they may leave their party and sit as an independent. In other words, there's a human element to the system. Legislators have to balance personal, party and constituency accountability -- this is, to me, a Good Thing. Yet, under MMP, all of that goes out the window for the 30% of the legislature to be selected by parties rather than directly from the public. The list members won' t need to justify themselves to the public, only to the party backrooms, where loyalty is the only talent that matters. Almost one-third of the MPPs -- some of whom could even find themselves in Cabinet -- will have their voting record dictated to them by party brass and generally stripped of individual thought, for they have no other accountability. I imagine that if one of the 39 dies or resigns, their party just appoints a replacement and the legislature doesn't skip a beat. To take this to its logical conclusion, why even appoint people to the 39 positions? Each party whip could simply deliver, by proxy, the party designated answer to each vote, proportioned according to the election. (Of course, one can argue that even the party-list MPPs are free to vote on their conscience and occasionally buck the party line. But if that's the case, it' s the party -- not the people -- who gets to decide their consequences. At that point, though, what's point of the promise of MMP if the party reps can vote against the party?) Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? I don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These MPPs don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth talkers -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, while appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. I understand the calls for fairness, I get the point proponents are making, and I do see some benefit of cold logic in the proposal. However, IMO what we lose from MMP is far more than what we gain. There are many other reasons to oppose MMP, but this is certainly a big one to me. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:08:27 2007 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:08:27 -0400 Subject: Scanner recommendations In-Reply-To: <20071009173609.GE15609-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071009173609.GE15609@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <470BC39B.4030103@netdirect.ca> Neil Watson wrote: > I'm in need of a scanner. This is mostly for scanning signed documents > but I imagine I'll use it for scanning photos also. My brief research > turned up the SANE project. It is still the preferred method of using > scanners on Linux? Can anyone recommend a good make and model of > scanner that they use? > I use my HP 3030 all-in-one laser printer/scanner/fax quite well with sane. I've got it connected to the network through USB via a little mini-ITX system so that the entire office can use it for scanning (we all use Linux on the desktop). It has a document feeder that only occasionally pulls more than one page through. It wouldn't appeal to a graphic artist, but for business document use it's great. The colour can be off (white sometimes comes out with a tinge of blue), it scans a little skewed when using the paper feeder and it can be little difficult positioning a document to avoid shadows when using the flatbed part of it. Again none of these are really issues when using it for non-graphics purposes. Like others have said, make sure Sane supports it. Don't make any assumptions, there are some scanners out there that absolutely will not work. -- Register for the Ontario Linux Fest Conference today! A Linux Conference for users by users. -- *John Van Ostrand* *Net Direct Inc.* CTO, co-CEO 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 map Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Ph: 866-883-1172 ext.5102 *Linux Solutions / IBM Hardware* Fx: 519-883-8533 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:17:17 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:17:17 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470A434D.90306-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071009141717.1a254614@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > > Conversely, with the notion of abstraction and less direct access to > > those MMP elected MPPs, the ability to make courageous political moves > > would be increased, since those members need not be so accountable to > > the whims of any particular electorate within a riding. > That is simply not the case in theory or practice. They are accountable > to their minority parties, not to the better good of the mainstream. > Without direct riding accountability there is even less incentive to > listen to the mainstream. > > Your own instinct -- and political history -- should indicate that > minority and coalition governments are far less able to act quickly or > make significant change than majority governments. Really? Seems to me that the retards that we have in power federally don't have a majority and have undertaken some of the most radical and unpopular reformations of Canadian policy in generations, and they did it in just over a year. Of course, they've done this with the assurance that no matter what, they will be reelected in sufficient numbers the next time around because the vocal minority of people who follow Nascar and have 'We Support the Troops' stickers on their SUV's will continue to vote for them because that's what they were told to do by Reader's Digest and CFRB. These are the biggest opponents of MMP, and they are with good reason. They really love having a completely disproportionate representation in our democratic institutions. I'm sure I _shouldn't_ need to mention the unbelievable political inertia we saw under so many successive Liberal majorities. Again, the right-wing hysteria ends up being the exact opposite of the truth. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: Oh, Lord, I'm on the verge of a nervous melt-down. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:25:24 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:25:24 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470BC29C.10400-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> Message-ID: <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 9, 2007 02:04:12 pm Evan Leibovitch wrote: > OK, so the subject line was a bit extreme. But there's been something > bothering me about this whole debate that I haven' t been able to put > my finger on, and even here I'm not sure if I'm expressing it well. > So I'll do my best and hope it makes some sense. > > Currently, MPPs are not robots. Sometimes they vote against party > discipline. Sometimes they change parties in mid-session. Sometimes > they force free votes on issues that transcend party politics. > Sometimes they face local backlash when a province-wide initiative > severely threatens their riding. Sometimes they advance local needs > in caucus to provide context to province-wide programs. Sometimes > they resign, or die while in office, and by-elections need to be > called. Sometimes they may even be persuaded by debate on the floor > of the legislature. And sometimes they may leave their party and sit > as an independent. > > In other words, there's a human element to the system. Legislators > have to balance personal, party and constituency accountability -- > this is, to me, a Good Thing. Yet, under MMP, all of that goes out > the window for the 30% of the legislature to be selected by parties > rather than directly from the public. > > The list members won' t need to justify themselves to the public, > only to the party backrooms, where loyalty is the only talent that > matters. Almost one-third of the MPPs -- some of whom could even find > themselves in Cabinet -- will have their voting record dictated to > them by party brass and generally stripped of individual thought, for > they have no other accountability. I imagine that if one of the 39 > dies or resigns, their party just appoints a replacement and the > legislature doesn't skip a beat. > > To take this to its logical conclusion, why even appoint people to > the 39 positions? Each party whip could simply deliver, by proxy, the > party designated answer to each vote, proportioned according to the > election. > > (Of course, one can argue that even the party-list MPPs are free to > vote on their conscience and occasionally buck the party line. But if > that's the case, it' s the party -- not the people -- who gets to > decide their consequences. At that point, though, what's point of the > promise of MMP if the party reps can vote against the party?) > > Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority > governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? > I don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public > accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These > MPPs don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth > talkers -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, > while appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. That's why we have a 4 year election cycle. The one thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that if after 4 years, a clique of backroom coalitions inside parties etc. are dictating policy that we constituents don't agree with, the popular vote is an easy and effective way to crush said party's MMP seats, without voters needing to fear that voting for their local candidate will hinder that. It's a good way to get parties to at least maintain a positive outward appearance to avoid loosing ground to their competition. Most people vote based on superficials anyways. > I understand the calls for fairness, I get the point proponents are > making, and I do see some benefit of cold logic in the proposal. > However, IMO what we lose from MMP is far more than what we gain. > There are many other reasons to oppose MMP, but this is certainly a > big one to me. Also, that Dalton McGuinty would promise a referendum on the issue, as one of the two parties with the most to loose, and however disinclined he may have been to deliver on that means one of two things to me: 1, he thinks we'll all vote against it and wants to have a record of delivering on promises made; 2, he is our appointed leader, listens to the electorate, and has the public's best interests in mind. Probably a combination of the two, I'm not a member of the Liberals so I don't know what the real story is. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:31:11 2007 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:31:11 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470BC29C.10400-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> Message-ID: <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > OK, so the subject line was a bit extreme. But there's been something > bothering me about this whole debate that I haven' t been able to put my > finger on, and even here I'm not sure if I'm expressing it well. So I'll > do my best and hope it makes some sense. > > Currently, MPPs are not robots. Sometimes they vote against party > discipline. Sometimes they change parties in mid-session. Sometimes they > force free votes on issues that transcend party politics. Sometimes they > face local backlash when a province-wide initiative severely threatens > their riding. Sometimes they advance local needs in caucus to provide > context to province-wide programs. Sometimes they resign, or die while > in office, and by-elections need to be called. Sometimes they may even > be persuaded by debate on the floor of the legislature. And sometimes > they may leave their party and sit as an independent. > > In other words, there's a human element to the system. Legislators have > to balance personal, party and constituency accountability -- this is, > to me, a Good Thing. Yet, under MMP, all of that goes out the window > for the 30% of the legislature to be selected by parties rather than > directly from the public. > > The list members won' t need to justify themselves to the public, only > to the party backrooms, where loyalty is the only talent that matters. > Almost one-third of the MPPs -- some of whom could even find themselves > in Cabinet -- will have their voting record dictated to them by party > brass and generally stripped of individual thought, for they have no > other accountability. I imagine that if one of the 39 dies or resigns, > their party just appoints a replacement and the legislature doesn't skip > a beat. > > To take this to its logical conclusion, why even appoint people to the > 39 positions? Each party whip could simply deliver, by proxy, the party > designated answer to each vote, proportioned according to the election. > > (Of course, one can argue that even the party-list MPPs are free to vote > on their conscience and occasionally buck the party line. But if that's > the case, it' s the party -- not the people -- who gets to decide their > consequences. At that point, though, what's point of the promise of MMP > if the party reps can vote against the party?) > > Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority > governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? I > don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public > accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These MPPs > don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth talkers > -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, while > appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. > > I understand the calls for fairness, I get the point proponents are > making, and I do see some benefit of cold logic in the proposal. > However, IMO what we lose from MMP is far more than what we gain. There > are many other reasons to oppose MMP, but this is certainly a big one to me. There's one thing which keeps this in check. Just barely. It is in the party's best interest to appear to follow a democratic process, else nobody will vote for them with that second vote. If this passes, I might just become a card carrying Liberal.... PC, NDP, and Green. That way I can have some say as to who is appointed and as to whether or not the parties degrade into the state you describe. Personally I would rather see the candidates for the MMP placements selected from the unsuccessful canidates with the highest number of votes of all the party's ridings. That way, the MMP candidate is not selected by the party, but is selected by the people, but they're answerable to the members of their constituency... -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:34:27 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:34:27 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071009141717.1a254614-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> <20071009141717.1a254614@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <470BC9B3.7000602@telly.org> JoeHill wrote: > Seems to me that the retards that we have in power federally don't have > a majority and have undertaken some of the most radical and unpopular > reformations of Canadian policy in generations, and they did it in just over a > year. > "Radical and unpopular"? Not really. There have been no grand initiatives such as the GST, NAFTA, or Meech Lake. Policies on Iraq were maintained form the previous government. > Of course, they've done this with the assurance that no matter what, they will > be reelected in sufficient numbers the next time around because the vocal > minority of people who follow Nascar and have 'We Support the Troops' stickers > on their SUV's will continue to vote for them because that's what they were told > to do by Reader's Digest and CFRB. Ah, when all else fails, just toss in a little stereotypical contempt for the voters. I've not voted conservative in decades, though at one time or another I've voted for every party (including the Rhinos). I've not heard more than 30 minutes of CFRM in my life, and most of that 30 minutes was Gordon Sinclair. Last federal election I voted Green. And I oppose MMP. > I'm sure I _shouldn't_ need to mention the unbelievable political inertia we saw under so many successive Liberal majorities. > And yet Mulroney was also able to get majority governments. As did Bob Rae, and a pile of NDP provincial governments out west. In the meantime, I don't see anyone talking about Stephane Dion building a political dynasty anytime soon. And I'll take political inertia over political stagnation (the signature of endless coalition governments). When you said we'd be more like Switzerland, you weren' t far off -- probably closer to Belgium. > Again, the right-wing hysteria ends up being the exact opposite of the truth. > Whatever. The MMP machine has been full of its own rabid hype as well. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:51:45 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:51:45 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470BCDC1.6060808@telly.org> Mike Kallies wrote: > It is in the party's best interest to appear to follow a democratic > process, else nobody will vote for them with that second vote. > Two parties are running. One has policies that reflect a vision of the country you agree with, but it's by coincidence because you had no say in policy development at that party. The other party uses Wikis to allow widespread comment and development on policies, but the end result of that process is a series of initiatives you believe would cause the country irrepairable harm. Who would you vote for? The one with the democratic process, or the one whose policies -- regardless of how they were made -- appeal to you more? > Personally I would rather see the candidates for the MMP placements > selected from the unsuccessful canidates with the highest number of > votes of all the party's ridings. That way, the MMP candidate is not > selected by the party, but is selected by the people, but they're > answerable to the members of their constituency... > That' s an interesting idea. I'd definitely have more support for this than the existing MMP proposal. Of course, in such a system (which resembles the wild-card selections in baseball and football playoffs) such MMPs could maintain their popularity, but could lose their status anyway if either the party loses popularity or other ridings have a better second-place finishers. Something to think about... - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 18:36:47 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:36:47 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP Message-ID: <470BCA3F.6080303@rogers.com> Something else about this proposal that has begun to irk me a great deal is that nothing has been delineated about how the electorate, you, me and every other eligible voter in the province, can get rid of MMP after the fact if it gets voted in and turns out to be a disaster. I some how doubt that any politicians that have benefited from the MMP system are going to readily agree to another referendum to remove it. This type of one sided agreement that we are to decide on tomorrow looks very much like a shrink wrap license to me. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 19:15:20 2007 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:15:20 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071009151520.lw7qz4vj0g4gc044@webmail.easyhosting.com> Quoting Mike Kallies : > Personally I would rather see the candidates for the MMP placements > selected from the unsuccessful canidates with the highest number of > votes of all the party's ridings. Percent rather than number would make more sense with unequal riding sizes, but...ya. My starting position is that any changes in the election mechanism should make elected politicians more accountable to the public. I see the current MMP scheme as leading in the opposite direction from that goal. So, I'm not against the concept of changes, but I think this one is seriously flawed. That and the price of 22 extra "representatives". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 19:15:35 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:15:35 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BCA3F.6080303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <470BCA3F.6080303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071009191535.GF15609@watson-wilson.ca> Just as an aside, it's nice to see that we can have a spirited political debate with, thus far, no flame wars. That is rare on any mailing list. No voting system is currently truly democratic. It if were we would need no leaders. We would all vote on each policy presenter. But that is a theoretical debate. Is the newer system better or worse than the current system? It is difficult to say. Each system has its flaws. The current system has had a good run but, might it be time to at try something new? There is always room for improvement. Just remember, while we are debating whether or not our voting system needs improvements people in other countries are literally dying to get the chance to vote. Life could be worse. -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 25 days http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 19:23:40 2007 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:23:40 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470BCDC1.6060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BCDC1.6060808@telly.org> Message-ID: <92ee967a0710091223u198fcb61ofc251ed24391593b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Mike Kallies wrote: > > It is in the party's best interest to appear to follow a democratic > > process, else nobody will vote for them with that second vote. > > > Two parties are running. > > One has policies that reflect a vision of the country you agree with, > but it's by coincidence because you had no say in policy development at > that party. > > The other party uses Wikis to allow widespread comment and development > on policies, but the end result of that process is a series of > initiatives you believe would cause the country irrepairable harm. > > Who would you vote for? The one with the democratic process, or the one > whose policies -- regardless of how they were made -- appeal to you more? I would vote for the first, but if they became tyrants in the future and had unreasonable representatives in the MMP seats, then they'd lose my vote. I'm not a fan of the new MMP idea because I'm generally opposed to the idea of a "party". It seems absurd to me that an elected representative of a riding could be bound in to a "non-free" vote where they're asked to vote along the party lines rather than for the bennefit of their constituents. The point you raise about the members being answerable only to the "party" makes the hair stand on the back of my neck. It gives more power to the parties and less to the people. Hey, maybe we can create a meta-party. The meta-party would appoint the runner up candidates regardless of which party they belong to. So if you didn't want to vote for a party, you wouldn't have to spoil that part of your ballot. It might even get an independent into a MMP seat :-) I'll probably grudgingly vote in favour of MMP. It seems to do more good than harm. It lowers the barrier for entry for new parties, at the cost of entrenching some old cronies. Some of these problems seem to be fixable within the parties themselves... and anything which encourages me to get involved in party politics is probably not a bad thing. My vote might go either way on this though. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 19:27:06 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:27:06 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> Mike Kallies wrote: [snip] > If this passes, I might just become a card carrying Liberal.... PC, > NDP, and Green. That way I can have some say as to who is appointed > and as to whether or not the parties degrade into the state you > describe. [snip] What stops you from being a member of any or all of those parties today? How is MMP going to magically create more time so that you can participate in the party politics of each of those parties? Political parties are comprised of people just like you and me. The argument that FPTP is inherently unfair because majority governments can be formed by parties that get 30% of the popular vote is a red herring. Pay attention to the candidate and leadership nomination, and policy setting processes for the various parties. If the process is transparent and "one member, one vote", that is as good a reflection of the electorate as any. Parties that hope to form governments have to be "big tent" parties and as such, they have to accommodate a diversity of opinion that is more or less reflective of the electorate. If you have the time and the inclination to get involved in party politics, pick a party that best reflects your political views and devote yourself wholeheartedly to it. Go to their policy conventions and have your say in setting their policies. Go to their nomination meetings and vote for the candidate whom you think will best represent your views but be prepared to accept the fact that your candidate may lose and that you may have to support a candidate you did not vote for. If you believe you can do a better job of "getting the message out", stand for election yourself. All those options are available to you today without having to change a thing about how we elect our representatives. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 20:18:15 2007 From: dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org (David Kreuter) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:18:15 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071009191535.GF15609-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <470BCA3F.6080303@rogers.com> <20071009191535.GF15609@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: True say. I look at fairly simply I suppose. We have had majority gov'ts provincially and federally with the ruling party at around 40%. That's not a majority. In my riding the Green Party candidate does not have a chance or for that matter NDP so I often find myself choosing Liberal or Conservative based on perceived electability, or voting against a party. What if I like the Green party? Coalition governments may not be great but I'm willing to chance it. David At 03:15 PM 10/9/2007, Neil Watson wrote: >Just as an aside, it's nice to see that we can have a spirited political >debate with, thus far, no flame wars. That is rare on any mailing list. > >No voting system is currently truly democratic. It if were we would >need no leaders. We would all vote on each policy presenter. But that >is a theoretical debate. Is the newer system better or worse than the >current system? It is difficult to say. Each system has its flaws. >The current system has had a good run but, might it be time to at try >something new? There is always room for improvement. > >Just remember, while we are debating whether or not our voting system >needs improvements people in other countries are literally dying to get >the chance to vote. Life could be worse. > >-- >Neil Watson | Debian Linux >System Administrator | Uptime 25 days >http://watson-wilson.ca >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 21:30:51 2007 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPy In-Reply-To: <470BD60A.8050903-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > What stops you from being a member of any or all of those parties today? The NDP doesn't (or used not to; I haven't been active for some time) allow its members to belong to any other party. The other parties are probably the same. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 21:32:14 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:32:14 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPy In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <470BF35E.60500@dinamis.com> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > >> What stops you from being a member of any or all of those parties today? > > The NDP doesn't (or used not to; I haven't been active for some > time) allow its members to belong to any other party. The other > parties are probably the same. MMP presumably would not make political parties be any more tolerant of memberships in other parties. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 21:38:37 2007 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPyy In-Reply-To: <470BF35E.60500-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> <470BF35E.60500@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> >> > What stops you from being a member of any or all of those parties today? >> >> The NDP doesn't (or used not to; I haven't been active for some >> time) allow its members to belong to any other party. The other >> parties are probably the same. > > MMP presumably would not make political parties be any more tolerant of > memberships in other parties. I would hope not. Membership in more than one party (except possibly different parties at federal and provincial levels) makes no sense. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 21:47:17 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:47:17 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPyy In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> <470BF35E.60500@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20071009214717.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 05:38:37PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > I would hope not. Membership in more than one party (except > possibly different parties at federal and provincial levels) makes > no sense. Can't you agree with some parts of one party's ideals and some parts of another while disagreeing with some parts of each as well? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 21:49:07 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:49:07 -0400 Subject: Drupal with Postgresql & Mysql In-Reply-To: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <200710081833.04666.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470BF753.8000801@dinamis.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > I had a little time over the weekend to convert my site (jamonation.com) > from Mysql to Postgresql. I've been meaning to do it for a while. > Notwithstanding the overall poor performance of the server in general > (overloaded), I was surprised to find Postgresql outperformed Mysql > with Drupal in every ab test I tried. I documented my cursory findings > here: http://jamonation.com/node/734 > > I was under the impression Mysql was supposedly faster (overall) than > Postgresql. The site wasn't using innodb with mysql (which may be where > the speed comparison holds), but most cmses don't by default from what > I've seen. PG has been faster and more consistent under heavy load than MySQL for about the least four years. InnoDB is in fact slower than the default MyISAM so that is not the issue. However, I have given up on running Drupal backed by PostgreSQL because the extent of support for PostgreSQL in many third-party modules consists of: case 'pgsql': // TODO Core modules are fine but third-party support is spotty, at best. That underscores a weakness of Drupal, namely that there is no good database abstraction layer so module creators have to deal with differences between various databases, which effectively means they ignore everything but MySQL. From what I have seen of Drupal 6, there are some positive steps to address that problem. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 22:16:08 2007 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: (OT) Web servers and political parties (was: FPTP vs MMP, kind of) In-Reply-To: <20071009191535.GF15609-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071009191535.GF15609@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <47381.4134.qm@web60123.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I was curious to know what servers the different parties were running for their web sites. It seems funny that you can pretty much guess the party from the platform: Quiz. Match the following: - Windows 2003 (two of them) - Linux (Read Hat) - Linux (Debian) with: Liberals, NDP, Greens, PC (all for Ontario) Solution: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.ontariopc.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.ontariondp.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.ontarioliberal.ca http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.greenparty.ca Fernando --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 22:38:17 2007 From: hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Henry de Valence) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:38:17 -0400 Subject: (OT) Web servers and political parties (was: FPTP vs MMP, kind of) In-Reply-To: <47381.4134.qm-o5gON4E1jN2A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <47381.4134.qm@web60123.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710091838.18004.hdevalence@gmail.com> On October 9, 2007 06:16:08 pm Fernando Duran wrote: > http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.greenparty.ca umm.. do you mean http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.gpo.ca -- Harry de Valence -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 23:45:58 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:45:58 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPyy In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> <470BF35E.60500@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <470C12B6.6040501@telly.org> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > I would hope not. Membership in more than one party (except > possibly different parties at federal and provincial levels) makes > no sense. > It would make perverse sense under MMP. The party of your favourite individual candidate might not be your preferred list-level party; you might want to affect policy for both of those parties. If you can vote for two different parties, why shouldn't you be able to belong to two different parties? I can foresee court challenges to the NDP (and any other) exclusivity clauses if MMP comes into force. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:17:22 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:17:22 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMPyy In-Reply-To: <470C12B6.6040501-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BD60A.8050903@dinamis.com> <470BF35E.60500@dinamis.com> <470C12B6.6040501@telly.org> Message-ID: Not as a direct response to anyone. But lets think about that example. In 1989 there were the first since WWII so called "free elections" in Poland. I remember well these times. These elections were in fact not really free. They were aranged according to rules agreed by comunists and so called oppositiom. I am using the prase "so called" intentionally, becasuse all that, how we learn after many years only after, have been to such an enormous degree prepared and arranged indeed. Till now, after almost 20 years since these revolutionary political changes, the electoral system in Poland is still proportional. Still people vote there on parties, not on people really. Why? A lot of intelectuals would like to change it to be more democratic, close to what exists in most advanced western countries. But not much can be done. If parties are at decision making, not people, they will care for their own interest. There is a lot of corruption there. Huge scandals. No, dont take me entirely wrong - there was a huge progress in Poland during last 20 years towards a more normal political functioning. But the problems I know about have a deep root in sick political system that can NOT be easy changed. It is easy to go into proportional system or change the system to mixed. But it is not easy to change it back. The reason is, simply, that mixed and in particular proportional systems are ideal for political parties. And they have the power over media, over spreading propaganda, shaping your mind. I do not want the mixed system in Canada. I live here and do care for this country. I do not want it also here because I do care about my another country, Poland. And, believe me, there, in Poland, they look on what is going on in Canada. I do not want them to see a bad example. zb,. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:20:46 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:20:46 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071009141717.1a254614-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> <20071009141717.1a254614@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: On 10/9/07, JoeHill wrote: > Really? Seems to me that the retards that we have in power federally don't have > a majority and have undertaken some of the most radical and unpopular > reformations of Canadian policy in generations, and they did it in just over a > year. What "most radical and unpopular reformations"? a) Continuing the previous Liberal's policy of having troops in Afganistan? b) Cutting the GST rate, which was one of the unfulfilled promises of the previous Liberal governments? My MP has sent me letters claiming this sort of thing, but just because an opposition MP *says* that this is so does not mean that the Honourable Member is actually telling anything that resembles truth. Indeed, if the Conservatives were actually 'guilty' of such, then the REALITY is that it was the incompetence of a succession of Liberal governments, including current Liberal opposition, for putting in place the conditions making whatever it is that is accused possible. > Again, the right-wing hysteria ends up being the exact opposite of the truth. Well, left-wing hysteria also seems to be the exact opposite of the truth. Minority governments don't get to enact the legislation that they want to; they get to enact the legislation that the coalition will agree to. And none of the *other* bits of the coalitions that have had to be built, Federally, were "wild right wing hysterics." -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:26:43 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:26:43 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority >> governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? >> I don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public >> accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These >> MPPs don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth >> talkers -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, >> while appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. >> > > That's why we have a 4 year election cycle. The one thing I haven't seen > anyone mention is that if after 4 years, a clique of backroom > coalitions inside parties etc. are dictating policy that we > constituents don't agree with, the popular vote is an easy and > effective way to crush said party's MMP seats, without voters needing > to fear that voting for their local candidate will hinder that. > > It's a good way to get parties to at least maintain a positive outward > appearance to avoid loosing ground to their competition. Most people > vote based on superficials anyways. > I was at a FPTP v MMP debate last week with Andrew Coyne and I thought he put it very well. Parties aren't suicidal. If parties engage in backroom dealing that upsets their supporters, they will be punished at the next election. Similarly if they continually put party hacks on their lists that no one wants. No different than what we have now, really. It's not like there is a mechanism in Ontario where an MPP can get booted out if their constituents are unhappy with them. (Whether there should be such a mechanism is another question.) So really, there'd be very little difference in accountability there, it would all come down to the next election. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:30:06 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:30:06 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> Mike Kallies wrote: >> I understand the calls for fairness, I get the point proponents are >> making, and I do see some benefit of cold logic in the proposal. >> However, IMO what we lose from MMP is far more than what we gain. There >> are many other reasons to oppose MMP, but this is certainly a big one to me. >> > > There's one thing which keeps this in check. Just barely. > > It is in the party's best interest to appear to follow a democratic > process, else nobody will vote for them with that second vote. > > If this passes, I might just become a card carrying Liberal.... PC, > NDP, and Green. That way I can have some say as to who is appointed > and as to whether or not the parties degrade into the state you > describe. > > Personally I would rather see the candidates for the MMP placements > selected from the unsuccessful canidates with the highest number of > votes of all the party's ridings. That way, the MMP candidate is not > selected by the party, but is selected by the people, but they're > answerable to the members of their constituency... > Well, that has one flaw, which is that it makes it fairly difficult for a riding to vote out a local representative. However, the way the proposal is right now, list members can also be running in local ridings. This allows parties to, for instance, put their leaders on the top of the lists to ensure that they get into parliament even if they loose their local riding (like John Tory seems set to do tomorrow). Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:35:26 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:35:26 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0710091223u198fcb61ofc251ed24391593b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470BCDC1.6060808@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091223u198fcb61ofc251ed24391593b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470C1E4E.1060405@utoronto.ca> Mike Kallies wrote: > Hey, maybe we can create a meta-party. The meta-party would appoint > the runner up candidates regardless of which party they belong to. So > if you didn't want to vote for a party, you wouldn't have to spoil > that part of your ballot. It might even get an independent into a MMP > seat :-) > Unfortunately, that wouldn't be allowed. The party lists are required to be public and posted before the election. You can't make them up after the fact. If you did I think it would be a really bad proposal for a lot of obvious reasons. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:22:08 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:22:08 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470BC29C.10400-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C1B30.8030901@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Currently, MPPs are not robots. Sometimes they vote against party > discipline. Sometimes they change parties in mid-session. Sometimes they > force free votes on issues that transcend party politics. Sometimes they > face local backlash when a province-wide initiative severely threatens > their riding. Sometimes they advance local needs in caucus to provide > context to province-wide programs. Sometimes they resign, or die while > in office, and by-elections need to be called. Sometimes they may even > be persuaded by debate on the floor of the legislature. And sometimes > they may leave their party and sit as an independent. > > In other words, there's a human element to the system. Legislators have > to balance personal, party and constituency accountability -- this is, > to me, a Good Thing. Yet, under MMP, all of that goes out the window > for the 30% of the legislature to be selected by parties rather than > directly from the public. > > The list members won' t need to justify themselves to the public, only > to the party backrooms, where loyalty is the only talent that matters. > Almost one-third of the MPPs -- some of whom could even find themselves > in Cabinet -- will have their voting record dictated to them by party > brass and generally stripped of individual thought, for they have no > other accountability. What you say is true in theory, the list MPPs would lack the direct local accountability to a constituency. Their job is, in fact, to vote the party line. This is, in many ways, the right thing to do. The point of MMP is to balance out the power of *parties* in parliament. If those members aren't, in general, voting the party line then that would seem to be a bad thing. However, if you take a look at places like New Zealand, you'll see that what typically happens is that list members are assigned constituencies by the party, sometimes even before the election occurs. This is done very publicly and often times these people setup actual constituency offices. This allows them to interact with a geographic portion of the population and be able to represent their interest in their caucus. Further, these people are often involved in the campaign, just like the riding MPPs. > I imagine that if one of the 39 dies or resigns, > their party just appoints a replacement and the legislature doesn't skip > a beat. > According to the current proposals, vacancies will be replaced based on the original party lists. > To take this to its logical conclusion, why even appoint people to the > 39 positions? Each party whip could simply deliver, by proxy, the party > designated answer to each vote, proportioned according to the election. > True, but I think people would be even *more* upset about that. With MMP there are people in the loop and you *do* get to vote for and against them. When you choose your party vote you're not just selecting the platform, your selecting the people. Much like today when you vote, you're voting for your local candidate but you're also selecting a potential premier. > (Of course, one can argue that even the party-list MPPs are free to vote > on their conscience and occasionally buck the party line. But if that's > the case, it' s the party -- not the people -- who gets to decide their > consequences. At that point, though, what's point of the promise of MMP > if the party reps can vote against the party?) > > Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority > governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? I > don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public > accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These MPPs > don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth talkers > -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, while > appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. > Frankly, I don't think MMP will do anything to diminish the influence of independents. If any thing, it may increase it. Independents are completely worthless in a majority government, but in a minority they can actually be crucial. (If you don't believe me, go check the voting records when Paul Martin's minority fell, or when Stephen Harpers first budget passed.) > I understand the calls for fairness, I get the point proponents are > making, and I do see some benefit of cold logic in the proposal. > However, IMO what we lose from MMP is far more than what we gain. There > are many other reasons to oppose MMP, but this is certainly a big one to me. I think this is precisely the question everyone should be answering tomorrow. Are we likely to gain more than we loose with MMP? I think so myself. I think looking at the dozens of success stories around the world indicates that many of the fears about MMP aren't justified. Germany and New Zealand both use MMP and many others use some form of list-based PR. There are certainly idiosyncratic examples, such as Isreal and Italy but I think the problems in both of those countries have little to do with their electoral system. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 00:46:04 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:46:04 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C1C43.1050607-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > I was at a FPTP v MMP debate last week with Andrew Coyne and I thought > he put it very well. Parties aren't suicidal. If parties engage in > backroom dealing that upsets their supporters, they will be punished at > the next election. Conversely, they can totally please their supporters, and still get punished by the electorate. Or they can compromise core principles in order to get elected -- witness the growing rift between the NDP and the trade union movement. > Similarly if they continually put party hacks on > their lists that no one wants. Since you don't know in advance how many list candidates will get in power, you have to vote for the policies rather than the slate of people. And if the slate has a bunch of people you don't know but two or three that you really can't stand, is that enough reason to vote against the party on the list vote? Since they're all voting party line, why should it even matter who the list candidates are? > No different than what we have now, > really. It's not like there is a mechanism in Ontario where an MPP can > get booted out if their constituents are unhappy with them. (Whether > there should be such a mechanism is another question.) Now you're talking. The two best possible electoral reforms I can think of are: - an elected Senate with term limits - a recall system for MPs and MPPs The ability for a riding to recall its representative in mid-term is IMO a far more useful change than proportional representation could ever be. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:04:01 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:04:01 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C20CC.5040409-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > >> I was at a FPTP v MMP debate last week with Andrew Coyne and I thought >> he put it very well. Parties aren't suicidal. If parties engage in >> backroom dealing that upsets their supporters, they will be punished at >> the next election. >> > > Conversely, they can totally please their supporters, and still get > punished by the electorate. Or they can compromise core principles in > order to get elected -- witness the growing rift between the NDP and the > trade union movement. > Actually, that is something that would change under MMP. The NDP could please their supporters but actually get a fair share of the seats in parliament. >> Similarly if they continually put party hacks on >> their lists that no one wants. >> > > Since you don't know in advance how many list candidates will get in > power, you have to vote for the policies rather than the slate of > people. And if the slate has a bunch of people you don't know but two or > three that you really can't stand, is that enough reason to vote against > the party on the list vote? Since they're all voting party line, why > should it even matter who the list candidates are? > True, you don't know the total number but I think it's a matter of weighting. If you hate someone on the list, but (s)he's #39 then it's (basically) irrelevant. If they're in the top 10 then maybe I'd give it consideration. >> No different than what we have now, >> really. It's not like there is a mechanism in Ontario where an MPP can >> get booted out if their constituents are unhappy with them. (Whether >> there should be such a mechanism is another question.) >> > > Now you're talking. The two best possible electoral reforms I can think > of are: > - an elected Senate with term limits > - a recall system for MPs and MPPs > > The ability for a riding to recall its representative in mid-term is IMO > a far more useful change than proportional representation could ever be. > Those could all be good things but I see it as an orthogonal discussion to this one. If MMP and FPTP both suffer some of the same problems, then those problems are not really relevant in deciding which is better. Of course, it would be nice if MMP or some other proposal would solve all the problems but that's just never going to happen. Nothings perfect, especially when even a little bit of the debate is speculative as it is here. MMP is targeted towards making the platform preferences of the populace better represented in parliament. The question isn't whether MMP is perfect. I don't think anyone is arguing that it is (I'm sure not!) The question is whether it's better over all. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:07:43 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:07:43 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BCA3F.6080303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <470BCA3F.6080303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <470C25DF.9090907@utoronto.ca> John McGregor wrote: > Something else about this proposal that has begun to irk me a great deal > is that nothing has been delineated about how the electorate, you, me > and every other eligible voter in the province, can get rid of MMP after > the fact if it gets voted in and turns out to be a disaster. I some how > doubt that any politicians that have benefited from the MMP system are > going to readily agree to another referendum to remove it. This type of > one sided agreement that we are to decide on tomorrow looks very much > like a shrink wrap license to me. > No more so than the one we have now :) These kinds of referendums (and even these kinds of Citizen Assemblies) are fairly rare under any circumstance and the electoral system will (I think) have a minimal impact on that. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:13:23 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:13:23 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C1D0E.4070902-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C2733.80702@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > the way the > proposal is right now, list members can also be running in local > ridings. This allows parties to, for instance, put their leaders on the > top of the lists to ensure that they get into parliament even if they > loose their local riding (like John Tory seems set to do tomorrow). So, if a party-favourite candidate is rejected by his own community, he should be offered a consolation-prize seat in the legislature anyway? This strikes me as a bug rather than a feature -- not to mention the possibility that big chunks of the Cabinet (or all of it) could be list candidates with no direct public accountability. No thanks. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:33:34 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:33:34 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BAB64.9060003-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BAB64.9060003@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C2BEE.7090202@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Take a look around you. Small parties (such as Shas in Israel) have huge > amounts of control in coalition minority governments -- which will be > the rule rather the exception under MMP. > > When the mainstream parties are weakened and fringe parties empowered > beyond their numbers as MMP would do, the very act of building a > government after the election can be a national nightmare. For an > extremely current and relevant example, look at what's happening NOW in > Belgium. They had their election in June and the parties STILL cannot > between them create a single coalition capable of leading. > > That' s right. Belgium has had no government for more than 100 days, and > prospects for a quick settlement are 50/50. Similar has happened in > other countries which have gone to 'fairer' systems. Legislative > gridlock is practically invited in systems that require frequent > coalition building, as MMP will do. > Israel and Belgium are true red herrings here. Both are very young democracies with serious social, political and religious divides. Israel doesn't even use MMP, they use List PR which I don't think *anyone* would propose for Ontario, not even the Israelis. The crisis in Belgium has nothing to do with MMP, little to do with a minority government and everything to do with fundamental divides about whether Belgium should even be a country. The same kind of things could happen here with FPTP if we had several geographic parties. In fact, FPTP *encourages* geopolitical divisions in the electorate, witness the Bloc. Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:35:10 2007 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:35:10 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2733.80702-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> <470C2733.80702@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/9/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > > the way the > > proposal is right now, list members can also be running in local > > ridings. This allows parties to, for instance, put their leaders on the > > top of the lists to ensure that they get into parliament even if they > > loose their local riding (like John Tory seems set to do tomorrow). > > So, if a party-favourite candidate is rejected by his own community, he > should be offered a consolation-prize seat in the legislature anyway? > This strikes me as a bug rather than a feature -- not to mention the > possibility that big chunks of the Cabinet (or all of it) could be list > candidates with no direct public accountability. No thanks. Of course, if a party were to disregard public opinion (this is done in a democracy?) then it is up to our free press and democratic rights to punish said party. The answer to possible electoral abuse is not a narrowing of the franchise, rather extending the people's electoral freedom. The right to be represented in government is a novelty in our current system but it doesn't have to remain that way. Randy > > - Evan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Oscar Developer McMaster University 75 Frid Street, Hamilton, ON 905 525 9140 x27735 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:48:07 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:48:07 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BA721.60103-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C2F57.7070606@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give > the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. As such, > they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause of > small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of > " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. > The Citizens Assembly was discouraged from increasing the size of the legislature significantly. However, they also didn't want to make ridings unmanageably large. This was the compromise. Is it arbitrary? More or less. But to make the number smaller would require a larger number of list seats. However, to call it politically motivated is just plain wrong. The group was randomly chosen from the general population and very diverse. To even suggest that this was politically motivated demonstrates a lack of understanding of the process by which the proposal came about. Take a look at http://www.citizensassembly.gov.on.ca/ , especially http://www.citizensassembly.gov.on.ca/assets/Democracy%20at%20Work%20-%20The%20Ontario%20Citizens%27%20Assembly%20on%20Electoral%20Reform.pdf page 63. (Well, page 47 but put 63 into your PDF viewer.) > While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary > limits on anything. > Sure it does, it just obfuscates the limits instead of making them clear. Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 01:54:31 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:54:31 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2733.80702-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> <470C2733.80702@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C30D7.6060207@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> the way the >> proposal is right now, list members can also be running in local >> ridings. This allows parties to, for instance, put their leaders on the >> top of the lists to ensure that they get into parliament even if they >> loose their local riding (like John Tory seems set to do tomorrow). >> > > So, if a party-favourite candidate is rejected by his own community, he > should be offered a consolation-prize seat in the legislature anyway? > This strikes me as a bug rather than a feature -- not to mention the > possibility that big chunks of the Cabinet (or all of it) could be list > candidates with no direct public accountability. No thanks. > Like I've said elsewhere, MMP isn't perfect. This is one of those imperfections. However, to prevent people from both being on the list and running in a local riding would discourage smaller parties from running local candidates at all which seems to me to be a bad thing. However allowing them to both be on the list and run in a riding is better than the proposal I was replying to which you edited out. Namely, it's better (in my opinion) than choosing the list seats from local candidates that have lost. Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 02:11:15 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:11:15 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2501.8000206-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: >> The ability for a riding to recall its representative in mid-term is IMO >> a far more useful change than proportional representation could ever be. >> > Those could all be good things but I see it as an orthogonal discussion > to this one. Not really. The "citizen's assembly" was charged with electoral reform and MMP was the best they could come up with. This indicates, to me, that those that claim that the CA serves political party interests over those of the electorate have a point. > MMP is targeted towards making the platform preferences of the populace > better represented in parliament. At the expense of complexity, new MPPs without public accountability, more yet weaker government, and less value on individual contributions compared to those of the party. The vote tomorrow will be worth it if it fails bad enough to kill the idea, and make people think about reform driven to suit the electorate rather than minority parties. What I find most interesting is a recent Globe survey which indicates that the more informed the electorate, the greater the opposition to MMP. Maybe the system works after all. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071009.wontpollreferendum09/BNStory/ontarioelection2007/Ontario/ - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 02:25:15 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:25:15 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2F57.7070606-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470C2F57.7070606@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C380B.3060603@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: >> While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary >> limits on anything. >> > > Sure it does, it just obfuscates the limits instead of making them clear. Such as...? FPTP is a simpler system that doesn't require arbitary judgements such as the 90/39 split or the 30% threshold. What limits does it cloud? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 02:53:11 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:53:11 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2BEE.7090202-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BAB64.9060003@telly.org> <470C2BEE.7090202@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C3E97.3000800@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > Israel and Belgium are true red herrings here. They're reasonable (and real) examples of coalition gridlock. That they exist in unstable political environments is understood -- yet Canada has also had its times of political chaos (think Meech Lake). > In fact, FPTP > *encourages* geopolitical divisions in the electorate, witness the Bloc. One can't suck and blow at the same time. You can't attack FPTP for encouraging geopolitical divisions, while championing the MMP empowerment of small parties. If MMP happened on a federal level, some of the first new parties would certainly be aboriginal and western separatist groups, which (unlike the Bloc when it started) already have grassroots base. Indeed, if MMP were to succeed here it wouldn't surprise me if a party were to evolve to advocate the GTA's separation from Ontario -- a POV advanced by folks as disparate as Mel Lastman and Jane Jacobs. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 05:03:55 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 01:03:55 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C34C3.4030401-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > >> Those could all be good things but I see it as an orthogonal discussion >> to this one. >> > > Not really. The "citizen's assembly" was charged with electoral reform > and MMP was the best they could come up with. This indicates, to me, > that those that claim that the CA serves political party interests over > those of the electorate have a point. > The Citizen's Assembly was tasked with *electoral* reform, not parliamentary or democratic reform. They're job was to look at the way people's votes get translated into MPPs. Recalls or an elected Senate were outside the scope of their mandate. Further, they were an Ontario group, which means that unless you're talking about adding a Senate in Ontario, that was *completely* out of the range of possibilities. I'm hoping that you've just failed to read the any of the actual source material instead of really believing that an Ontario assembly could would even try to change the federal government. Feel free to present some real evidence of political bias, but until then I think the assembly stands as fairly neutral in my book. Plus, I don't know if you've noticed but people from all sides of the political spectrum have backed this proposal. For instance, from the right wing of the spectrum there is Andrew Coyne. This isn't a vote about what could be, it's a vote about what the proposal does and doesn't do. Are there other reforms which might help the political processes in Ontario and Canada as a whole? Absolutely, but most of those were frankly not within the mandate of the assembly and have nothing to do with this debate. > The vote tomorrow will be worth it if it fails bad enough to kill the > idea, and make people think about reform driven to suit the electorate > rather than minority parties. > > What I find most interesting is a recent Globe survey which indicates > that the more informed the electorate, the greater the opposition to > MMP. Maybe the system works after all. > I'm not expecting this to pass tomorrow, but to believe that this vote, whichever way it ends up, will be an educated one is preposterous. Frankly, Elections Ontario and the entire government of Ontario have dropped the ball on even making people aware that anything was happening, much less explaining what's being voted on. It's been expected from the beginning that inertia will lead people to oppose it if they know little about it. That over half the population only learned that there was a referendum within the last two weeks does not give me much faith that most of them have given it any due consideration. Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 05:33:05 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 01:33:05 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470C3E97.3000800-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155307.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BAB64.9060003@telly.org> <470C2BEE.7090202@utoronto.ca> <470C3E97.3000800@telly.org> Message-ID: <470C6411.4030108@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > >> Israel and Belgium are true red herrings here. >> > > They're reasonable (and real) examples of coalition gridlock. That they > exist in unstable political environments is understood -- yet Canada has > also had its times of political chaos (think Meech Lake). > > > >> In fact, FPTP >> *encourages* geopolitical divisions in the electorate, witness the Bloc. >> > > One can't suck and blow at the same time. You can't attack FPTP for > encouraging geopolitical divisions, while championing the MMP > empowerment of small parties. > FPTP encourages geographically limited parties. MMP encourages ideologically limited parties. I have nothing against small parties on either side of this, but the crisis in Belgium has to do with geographic and linguistic divides which are very much encouraged by FPTP which is what Belgium uses anyway. > If MMP happened on a federal level, some of the first new parties would > certainly be aboriginal and western separatist groups, which (unlike the > Bloc when it started) already have grassroots base. Indeed, if MMP were > to succeed here it wouldn't surprise me if a party were to evolve to > advocate the GTA's separation from Ontario -- a POV advanced by folks as > disparate as Mel Lastman and Jane Jacobs. > Alright, fine, lets walk through this. Lets pretend that everyone in the GTA wants to separate because we don't like food, wine, cottages, uranium, or, you know, all those natural resources that we make lots of money selling. That's about 5.5 million people so that's about ~42% of the population if they all vote the same way. So under MMP they would get 42% of the seats. Well, frankly, if all those people thought that way, they would probably also get all of the ridings in the GTA under FPTP too. So? Well, that's ~48/107 which is ~44%. So, honestly, the efficacy of the "Bloc GTA" is basically identical under both systems. Except we're assuming that EVERYONE in the GTA will vote for this Bloc GTA party and I think even you would admit the odds of that are pretty slim. So lets say 60% of them vote this way, well then under MMP they get 25~30% and under FPTP they get...wait for it...~44% of the seats. Now, how is this an argument against MMP? Those scary parties people talk about could have always existed and many of them already do. However, separatist parties are less likely to win authority in MMP than in FPTP because their support is predominantly regional. Ideological parties which are spread out (like the Family Coalition or Greens or Communist or whatever) are likely to have a very small impact. In fact, even the Greens are unlikely to end up with more than half a dozen seats given their current (record high) polling. Finally, doesn't the FCP or Greens or whoever deserve at least some representation in parliament if they're able to get over 200,000 (3% of the likely voting public) people to support them? Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 06:11:42 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:11:42 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: References: <668966.56684.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710080212.22369.andrew@logaan.com> <470A3C3D.5010908@telly.org> <200710081035.07662.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470A434D.90306@telly.org> <20071009141717.1a254614@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071010021142.1fb750f0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/9/07, JoeHill wrote: > > Really? Seems to me that the retards that we have in power federally don't > > have a majority and have undertaken some of the most radical and unpopular > > reformations of Canadian policy in generations, and they did it in just > > over a year. > > What "most radical and unpopular reformations"? A few of many examples: 1. Completely reversing our position on Kyoto. Last poll I saw showed 80% of Canadians opposed this. 2. Abandoning Canada's commitment to a two-state solution in the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians and implementing a totally pro-Israel policy that makes American neo-cons salivate. 3. Increasing military spending by many billions of dollars, and eviscerating our commitment to the role of peacekeeper. 4. Taking the first steps toward private health care, allowing the first for-profit clinic to open in British Columbia, and encouraging Alberta to set up its own parallel private system. Harper is on record promising that he would "not tolerate a parallel private system", but that was before he was elected. > a) Continuing the previous Liberal's policy of having troops in Afganistan? I saw this one coming a mile away. Very popular. Anyway, the Liberals committed us to Afghanistan with the understanding that our role would be limited in terms of both duration and character. Harper has now made our deployment there open-ended and at this point our soldiers are engaging in 'counter-insurgency' warfare almost exclusively, something never agreed to by the Liberals. This explains why Canadians' concern with this issue has increased by ten times in the last ten months, and sadly, why there has been a drastic increase in the number of our soldiers coming back in black bags. > b) Cutting the GST rate, which was one of the unfulfilled promises of > the previous Liberal governments? Amazingly, most Canadians do not give a rat's ass about the GST. Taxation ranks very low in terms of what is considered important, after the environment, health care, education, and the Afghan war. This changes, of course, among people with more disposable income, which is not surprising at all, considering who makes up the core constituency of the Conservatives. > My MP has sent me letters claiming this sort of thing, but just > because an opposition MP *says* that this is so does not mean that the > Honourable Member is actually telling anything that resembles truth. You could always look it up. > Indeed, if the Conservatives were actually 'guilty' of such, then the > REALITY is that it was the incompetence of a succession of Liberal > governments, including current Liberal opposition, for putting in > place the conditions making whatever it is that is accused possible. Ah, yes. The old 'everything is the Liberals fault, even if Harper did it'. I love that one. I'm surprised you didn't also blame the media for 'making them look bad', they usually go together. > > Again, the right-wing hysteria ends up being the exact opposite of the > > truth. > > Well, left-wing hysteria also seems to be the exact opposite of the > truth. Minority governments don't get to enact the legislation that > they want to; they get to enact the legislation that the coalition > will agree to. And none of the *other* bits of the coalitions that > have had to be built, Federally, were "wild right wing hysterics." The Conservatives are not _in_ a coalition, but they have played a great deal with 'hysterics' in order to get their way, constantly threatening to call an election if even one of their agenda items is defeated, which scares the bejeezus out of the hapless Liberals. More substantively, though, they've used some convenient alliances with the Bloc Quebecois in order to avoid being brought down by a no-confidence vote from the Liberals and NDP. Of course, he can only do these things because, and this is where we tie back into the discussion at hand, we use a ridiculously outdated Parliamentary riding system which lets him and anachronisms like the Bloc dominate the House, despite the fact that together they represent less than half of the popular vote. If the parties were represented more according to popular vote as under something like the MMP, I'd wager Harper would still be writing insignificant and unread policy papers for those wackjobs at the NCC, with titles like 'Public Education is Communism!'. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 06:16:06 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:16:06 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <470BA721.60103-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071010021606.00b74c08@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end > > up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more > > of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats > > (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only > > 39 of them available) > > > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give > the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. I'm cool with that ;) > As such, they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause > of small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of > " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. > > While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary > limits on anything. > > And, as I mentioned before, MMP is designed to work against independent > candidates as well as really small parties. Waitaminnit...I thought you said the MMP benefitted fringe parties, a bad thing. Now it's a bad thing that it doesn't let in _enough_ fringe parties? Okay... -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Who was that guy?" -Fry "Your momma! Now shut up and drag me to work." -Bender -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 06:21:28 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:21:28 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C5D3B.1070304-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470C6F68.80103@telly.org> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > The Citizen's Assembly was tasked with *electoral* reform, not > parliamentary or democratic reform. They're job was to look at the way > people's votes get translated into MPPs. Recalls or an elected Senate > were outside the scope of their mandate. Obviously. Rather than allow the CA to answer the general question of "what's wrong with the process?", the mandate was limited to a problem assumed by the political elite. No wonder the result is as bad as what we're being offered. > Feel free to present some real evidence of political bias, but until > then I think the assembly stands as fairly neutral in my book. Plus, I > don't know if you've noticed but people from all sides of the political > spectrum have backed this proposal. For instance, from the right wing > of the spectrum there is Andrew Coyne. I'm making the point that the bias is not necessarily towards or against a particular political leaning, but rather in favour of political party power at the expense of the electorate. > This isn't a vote about what could be, it's a vote about what the > proposal does and doesn't do. Very true. I just wish that, given the rarity of such votes, the options presented actually reflected reforms that the electorate wants. This whole CA process has been contrived. > I'm not expecting this to pass tomorrow, but to believe that this vote, > whichever way it ends up, will be an educated one is preposterous. > Frankly, Elections Ontario and the entire government of Ontario have > dropped the ball on even making people aware that anything was > happening, much less explaining what's being voted on. That's what happens when you contrive a vote on something that nobody cares about. The fact is that this referendum proposes to fix something that most people don't consider broken. Even as people get educated about the issue they still are not convinced the system needs repair. Don't confuse ignorance with apathy. - Evan PS: Last night's Rick Mercer Report did a nice piece on the vote the video of it is available at http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 14:11:59 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:11:59 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C2733.80702-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> <470C2733.80702@telly.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710100711v281b8ad9p8ffbee26b0fa5810@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > So, if a party-favourite candidate is rejected by his own community, he > should be offered a consolation-prize seat in the legislature anyway? Doesn't this happen occasionally in the existing system anyway? I could be wrong, but I have vague memories of parties replacing a back-bencher with their leader when the back-bencher wins his riding, but the leader loses his. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:07:10 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:07:10 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Election Results In-Reply-To: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363-LUOcaToN/7Qa23XkYYEGGdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <200710101207.14450.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 10, 2007 10:37:33 am qwerty172-wzCN7aUSXSrQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org wrote: > The election of the new board members took place last night at the > annual general meeting. > > The results are Seneca Cunningham, Chris Browne, and Gordon Chillcott > have been elected to the vacant positions. > > Bill Certainly the most transparent election I've seen in a while... Maybe I haven't been reading my inbox enough, I could well have missed the announcement. Busy with school and work and all. Can't make it out to the meetings much, maybe that's where stuff like this is announced? But time for the once yearly "I haven't paid my $20 so maybe I'm not being informed of these annual meetings and elections, but I don't want to pay $20 because I can't see it being used in a transparent and participatory manner" post. Guess I just don't see there being any clear leadership or common mission/goals to really unite everyone. Sure geek social is fun, don't get me wrong, but it always seems like we could be doing so much more as a group with a common interest and mad skillz. And if more is already being done, then maybe communicating that? Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:13:57 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:13:57 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Election Results In-Reply-To: <200710101207.14450.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363@xprdmxin.myway.com> <200710101207.14450.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710100913k60722502v32296c58f5308a82@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/07, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On October 10, 2007 10:37:33 am qwerty172-wzCN7aUSXSrQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > The election of the new board members took place last night at the > > annual general meeting. > > > > The results are Seneca Cunningham, Chris Browne, and Gordon Chillcott > > have been elected to the vacant positions. > > > > Bill > > Certainly the most transparent election I've seen in a while... Maybe I > haven't been reading my inbox enough, I could well have missed the > announcement. Busy with school and work and all. Can't make it out to > the meetings much, maybe that's where stuff like this is announced? Hi Jamon, A Call for Nominations was sent to the TLUG-ANNOUNCE list (a super-set of the discuss list) on September 25th. I can forward a copy if you'd like. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:18:37 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:18:37 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Election Results In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710100913k60722502v32296c58f5308a82-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363@xprdmxin.myway.com> <200710101207.14450.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <99a6c38f0710100913k60722502v32296c58f5308a82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710101218.41216.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 10, 2007 12:13:57 pm Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 10/10/07, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > On October 10, 2007 10:37:33 am qwerty172-wzCN7aUSXSrQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > The election of the new board members took place last night at > > > the annual general meeting. > > > > > > The results are Seneca Cunningham, Chris Browne, and Gordon > > > Chillcott have been elected to the vacant positions. > > > > > > Bill > > > > Certainly the most transparent election I've seen in a while... > > Maybe I haven't been reading my inbox enough, I could well have > > missed the announcement. Busy with school and work and all. Can't > > make it out to the meetings much, maybe that's where stuff like > > this is announced? > > Hi Jamon, > > A Call for Nominations was sent to the TLUG-ANNOUNCE list (a > super-set of the discuss list) on September 25th. I can forward a > copy if you'd like. I took a glance at the gmane archive today too, couldn't see anything immediately apparent there. Too bad I missed it. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:22:55 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:22:55 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710100711v281b8ad9p8ffbee26b0fa5810-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> <470C2733.80702@telly.org> <7ac602420710100711v281b8ad9p8ffbee26b0fa5810@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470CFC5F.6080508@utoronto.ca> Ian Petersen wrote: > Doesn't this happen occasionally in the existing system anyway? I > could be wrong, but I have vague memories of parties replacing a > back-bencher with their leader when the back-bencher wins his riding, > but the leader loses his. > When this happens there is a by-election in that riding. It isn't done often and is usually only done after a new leader is chosen between elections. It is almost never done (that I know of) when the leader has lost their seat. In fact, if an election goes so badly that a leader looses their seat, that person is not likely to remain the leader for long. For instance, it was suggested that a member should step down allow Jack Layton to run for parliament when he was first selected to lead the federal NDP but the party decided against it. Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:24:34 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:24:34 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: <20071010021606.00b74c08-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <20071010021606.00b74c08@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, JoeHill wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end > > > up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more > > > of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats > > > (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only > > > 39 of them available) > > > > > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give > > the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. > > I'm cool with that ;) Unfortunately, that's not a good enough reason to say that it's an acceptable arbitrary choice. > > As such, they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause > > of small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of > > " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. > > > > While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary > > limits on anything. > > > > And, as I mentioned before, MMP is designed to work against independent > > candidates as well as really small parties. > > Waitaminnit...I thought you said the MMP benefitted fringe parties, a bad > thing. Now it's a bad thing that it doesn't let in _enough_ fringe parties? > > Okay... Well, that's where this particular *implementation* of MMP has a particularly interesting edge case. Generally speaking, one would expect MMP to be of benefit to fringe parties that have some general popularity that is too diffuse for them to get any "FPTP" seats. But the proposed implementation has a cut-off that essentially cuts out any party below a particular "popularity level." And it fairly inherently biases against independent candidates; they are a "political animal" that tend to be geographically based, who would only be able to capture enough votes to capture one region's seat. Getting publicity outside a local seat is hard enough (even with the Internet!) that independents can't expect to go far on a "general province" basis. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:29:38 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:29:38 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C34C3.4030401-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071010162938.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 10:11:15PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Not really. The "citizen's assembly" was charged with electoral reform > and MMP was the best they could come up with. This indicates, to me, > that those that claim that the CA serves political party interests over > those of the electorate have a point. Maybe they should have tried harder, or they picked the wrong people to do it. > At the expense of complexity, new MPPs without public accountability, > more yet weaker government, and less value on individual contributions > compared to those of the party. MMP has some odd corner cases that don't seem to be defined well, but I am not convinced it is really any more complex, or that it removes accountability. In some ways it seems to add more. A strong government may be one that does whatever it wants, while a weak one may have to cooporate and actually care what people think. The more individual MPPs you have the more relevant they are likely to be. > The vote tomorrow will be worth it if it fails bad enough to kill the > idea, and make people think about reform driven to suit the electorate > rather than minority parties. > > What I find most interesting is a recent Globe survey which indicates > that the more informed the electorate, the greater the opposition to > MMP. Maybe the system works after all. > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071009.wontpollreferendum09/BNStory/ontarioelection2007/Ontario/ And who decides who is more informed? The whole vote on MMP so far reminds me of the vote on the euro in Denmark a number of years ago (I was there on vacation at the time). The arguments for an against were generally completely without basis in facts and neither side made particularly good arguments. In the end the result was 52% against and 48% for which really just means they had managed to make most of the people very confused. Apparently both ways would ruin the economy and give great prosperity, would enhance the nationality of the country and destroy a part of it at the same time. I suspect the arguments over the canadian flag in the 60s was similar. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:32:59 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:32:59 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C5D3B.1070304-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20071010163259.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 01:03:55AM -0400, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > The Citizen's Assembly was tasked with *electoral* reform, not > parliamentary or democratic reform. They're job was to look at the way > people's votes get translated into MPPs. Recalls or an elected Senate > were outside the scope of their mandate. Further, they were an Ontario > group, which means that unless you're talking about adding a Senate in > Ontario, that was *completely* out of the range of possibilities. I'm > hoping that you've just failed to read the any of the actual source > material instead of really believing that an Ontario assembly could > would even try to change the federal government. > > Feel free to present some real evidence of political bias, but until > then I think the assembly stands as fairly neutral in my book. Plus, I > don't know if you've noticed but people from all sides of the political > spectrum have backed this proposal. For instance, from the right wing > of the spectrum there is Andrew Coyne. > > This isn't a vote about what could be, it's a vote about what the > proposal does and doesn't do. Are there other reforms which might help > the political processes in Ontario and Canada as a whole? Absolutely, > but most of those were frankly not within the mandate of the assembly > and have nothing to do with this debate. Well certainly some members of the Citizen's Assembly were not happy with the MMP idea, but it was what the majority ended up picking as the best proposal. Some of them certainly had other ideas. > I'm not expecting this to pass tomorrow, but to believe that this vote, > whichever way it ends up, will be an educated one is preposterous. > Frankly, Elections Ontario and the entire government of Ontario have > dropped the ball on even making people aware that anything was > happening, much less explaining what's being voted on. It's been > expected from the beginning that inertia will lead people to oppose it > if they know little about it. That over half the population only > learned that there was a referendum within the last two weeks does not > give me much faith that most of them have given it any due consideration. Certainly the web site on MMP is seriously lacking in details. It gives the impression that the proposal is seriously lacking in details, which of course if true should be a good reason not to vote for it. Some things certainly has to be cleared up first. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:39:41 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:39:41 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C6F68.80103-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <470C6F68.80103@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071010163941.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 02:21:28AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > PS: Last night's Rick Mercer Report did a nice piece on the vote the > video of it is available at http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/ Rick Mercer is great. Can we have him as prime minister? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:51:16 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:51:16 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Election Results In-Reply-To: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363-LUOcaToN/7Qa23XkYYEGGdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <20071010143733.AC4BC8B363@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <470D0304.8000905@rogers.com> qwerty172-wzCN7aUSXSrQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > The election of the new board members took place last night at the annual general meeting. > > The results are Seneca Cunningham, Chris Browne, and Gordon Chillcott have been elected to the vacant positions. > > Bill > > Oh... THAT election. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 16:56:26 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:56:26 -0400 Subject: FPTP vs MMP In-Reply-To: References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <20071010021606.00b74c08@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071010125626.7c5e6b38@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/10/07, JoeHill wrote: > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > 39 out of 129 seats is 30% not 45%. So instead of 107 ridings you end > > > > up with 90 ridings, so yes a decrease would occour. It takes 3% or more > > > > of the popular vote before you can get any of the proportional seats > > > > (which makes sense since 2% would require 50 seats and there are only > > > > 39 of them available) > > > > > > > The numbers such as 3% and 39 seats are completely arbitrary. They give > > > the Greens power while shutting out the Family Coalition Party. > > > > I'm cool with that ;) > > Unfortunately, that's not a good enough reason to say that it's an > acceptable arbitrary choice. I was being silly...mostly. > > > As such, they indicate a wilful manipulation designed to advance the cause > > > of small parties -- providing they're not too small. And the definition of > > > " what is too small" is totally arbitrary. > > > > > > While FPTP has its downsides, it doesn't by design impose arbitrary > > > limits on anything. > > > > > > And, as I mentioned before, MMP is designed to work against independent > > > candidates as well as really small parties. > > > > Waitaminnit...I thought you said the MMP benefitted fringe parties, a bad > > thing. Now it's a bad thing that it doesn't let in _enough_ fringe parties? > > > > Okay... > > Well, that's where this particular *implementation* of MMP has a > particularly interesting edge case. > > Generally speaking, one would expect MMP to be of benefit to fringe > parties that have some general popularity that is too diffuse for them > to get any "FPTP" seats. > > But the proposed implementation has a cut-off that essentially cuts > out any party below a particular "popularity level." > > And it fairly inherently biases against independent candidates; they > are a "political animal" that tend to be geographically based, who > would only be able to capture enough votes to capture one region's > seat. Getting publicity outside a local seat is hard enough (even > with the Internet!) that independents can't expect to go far on a > "general province" basis. Listen, I believe in direct democracy. You do not want me put in charge of setting up an electoral system. You would either move to another country or assassinate me, probably the latter. Then again, under my system, it would immediately render me powerless, so, there you go. However, I accept that we need to look for solutions that: a) work for the largest number of people and b) are acceptable to the largest number of people Invariably, b) demands that there be some cutoff, and any cutoff you implement is going to be arbitrary in some way to someone. Do we let 15 year olds drive on the 401? No, even though I'm sure I could find lots of 15 year olds who I would rather have on the highway than the _tools_ I see on there all the time. Don't even get me started on the 80 yr olds. One thing that is really making me laugh here, if the government had simply said 'this is what we're doing', the debate would have been limited to the most vocal on either side (grumble grumble, rabble rabble), like we see with any decision made by these jokers. People are so used to just doing as they're told, when someone actually asks for their opinion, they go nuts. Look at Poland or Czechoslovakia when they got to vote for the first time. You'd think the ballots were made of cocaine. /note to self, new idea to increase voter turnout -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "In the event of an emergency, my ass can be used as a floatation device." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 20:45:26 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:45:26 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just results. I - MOST SINCERELY - do not wish to see flames, nor fire of any kind. Just the truth. If you don't wish to speak, then please don't - as is our norm. :-) I voted Green, For MMP. [PS - If you haven't voted yet and wish to drop a line on this thread, please vote _first_. Thanks.] -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 21:28:39 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:28:39 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071010212839.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 04:45:26PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > results. > > I - MOST SINCERELY - do not wish to see flames, nor fire of any kind. > Just the truth. If you don't wish to speak, then please don't - as is > our norm. :-) > > I voted Green, For MMP. > > [PS - If you haven't voted yet and wish to drop a line on this thread, > please vote _first_. Thanks.] I didn't vote (because I am not allowed to). :) Not sure who my wife voted for in the end. I suspect she voted against the MMP idea though given she seems to find many lacking details about it (which is certainly true). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 21:29:26 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:29:26 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710090720j7bff0a01oa5617abb5efcd476-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710090720j7bff0a01oa5617abb5efcd476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <408ae1640710101429v42b388eauf1daa7770f5c9625@mail.gmail.com> Due to popular request, advanced registration has been extended to Noon, Thursday 11 October 2007. http://onlinux.ca/olfreg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 21:37:37 2007 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:37:37 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <408ae1640710101429v42b388eauf1daa7770f5c9625-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710090720j7bff0a01oa5617abb5efcd476@mail.gmail.com> <408ae1640710101429v42b388eauf1daa7770f5c9625@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710101737.37744.glayng@sympatico.ca> And here I rushed to get my registration through the fax before 12:00 today Ah well, at least it's done. For my fellow procrastinators, is it still at $40? On Wednesday 10 October 2007 17:29, Interlug Lists wrote: > Due to popular request, advanced registration has been extended to > Noon, Thursday 11 October 2007. http://onlinux.ca/olfreg > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 22:26:13 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <20071010212839.GS4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071010212839.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I didn't vote (because I am not allowed to). :) Interesting. Dosay why if you do not want. Just wonder why you are not allowed to? No citizenship? Not allowed to have second citizenship by your first country? Or simply did not care to have one? You are so long on this list that I believe that you are likely to be allowed to apply. Wonder also is the voting in provincial elections allowed to Canadian citizens only? Or is it allowed to permanent residents as well? I remember that I have been plesently surptised when living legally in Holand that I was allowed to participate in some sort of local elections (over 13 years ago). > Not sure who my wife voted for in the end. I suspect she voted against > the MMP idea though given she seems to find many lacking details about > it (which is certainly true). I voted against Mixed system in referendum but absteined from participation in elections: am just over one yar in Pickering and weakly know candidates. In any case, I would have a hard choice because do not like either major party while do not see much sense in voting for a small one. Thats another reason why I would prefer Mixed system not introduced - because I would feel than that I voting even more for a party, not a candidate. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 22:42:21 2007 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:42:21 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710101842.21722.glayng@sympatico.ca> I'm disappointed. We had Liberals, NDP, Tories, Family, Green, Libertarian, but no Tux Party!!!! :P On Wednesday 10 October 2007 16:45, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > results. > > I - MOST SINCERELY - do not wish to see flames, nor fire of any kind. > Just the truth. If you don't wish to speak, then please don't - as is > our norm. :-) > > I voted Green, For MMP. > > [PS - If you haven't voted yet and wish to drop a line on this thread, > please vote _first_. Thanks.] -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 23:15:22 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:15:22 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <20071010163259.GQ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <20071010163259.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <470D5D0A.8090900@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 01:03:55AM -0400, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > >> The Citizen's Assembly was tasked with *electoral* reform, not >> parliamentary or democratic reform. They're job was to look at the way >> people's votes get translated into MPPs. Recalls or an elected Senate >> were outside the scope of their mandate. Further, they were an Ontario >> group, which means that unless you're talking about adding a Senate in >> Ontario, that was *completely* out of the range of possibilities. I'm >> hoping that you've just failed to read the any of the actual source >> material instead of really believing that an Ontario assembly could >> would even try to change the federal government. >> >> Feel free to present some real evidence of political bias, but until >> then I think the assembly stands as fairly neutral in my book. Plus, I >> don't know if you've noticed but people from all sides of the political >> spectrum have backed this proposal. For instance, from the right wing >> of the spectrum there is Andrew Coyne. >> >> This isn't a vote about what could be, it's a vote about what the >> proposal does and doesn't do. Are there other reforms which might help >> the political processes in Ontario and Canada as a whole? Absolutely, >> but most of those were frankly not within the mandate of the assembly >> and have nothing to do with this debate. >> > > Well certainly some members of the Citizen's Assembly were not happy > with the MMP idea, but it was what the majority ended up picking as the > best proposal. Some of them certainly had other ideas. > There were a series of three votes at the end of the Assembly process. The first was on April 1, 2007 and asked the members to decide between two alternative elector systems. The vote went 75 MMP and 25 STV (Single Transferable Vote). On April 14, they were then asked whether Ontario should keep its current system or switch to MMP. The vote went 16 for current system and 86 for MMP. Finally, there was a vote on April 15 about whether to recommend MMP to the people of Ontario, it went 94 to 8. So you're right, some of them had other ideas but a vast majority of them thought this was a good idea. > Certainly the web site on MMP is seriously lacking in details. It gives > the impression that the proposal is seriously lacking in details, which > of course if true should be a good reason not to vote for it. Some > things certainly has to be cleared up first. > Which website are you referring to? http://www.citizensassembly.gov.on.ca/ actually has quite a lot of information and documentation on both the proposal and the process by which it was arrived at. A lot of it was designed to be printed and if you were very lucky you might have gotten some of the printed copies which were nicely put together. At any rate, I think one of the great injustices of this whole process was that all the work that the Citizens Assembly did was hardly distributed at all and as a result basically no one has a clue about it and think this proposal just fell from the sky or someplace even more insidious. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 23:53:13 2007 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:53:13 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470D5D0A.8090900-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <20071010163259.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470D5D0A.8090900@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470D65E9.5000809@dinamis.com> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > At any rate, I think one of the great > injustices of this whole process was that all the work that the Citizens > Assembly did was hardly distributed at all and as a result basically no > one has a clue about it and think this proposal just fell from the sky > or someplace even more insidious. Who knows? MMP might win by accident. The ballot had so much text on it that I can imagine those with poor English skills could have voted opposite to their intentions. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 01:41:09 2007 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:41:09 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > results. Trinity-Spadina riding, voted NDP, voted Pro MMP -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 02:02:47 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:02:47 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470D8447.2030404@telly.org> My stance on the MMP scheme should be well known here. As for the vote: I was seriously considering NDP until two days ago. A horrible crash in Brampton that day had claimed lives and resulted in two arrests under the new anti-racing law. Howard Hampton took the opportunity to say the accident wouldn't have happened if Ontario had photo radar. Game Over -- at least to me. I won't say how I did vote, but I don't usually change my mind so close to election day. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 02:09:15 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:09:15 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) Message-ID: <470D85CB.70402@rogers.com> My riding is Don Valley West I voted for Kathleen Wynne (Lib.) and I voted against MMP -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 02:21:33 2007 From: jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42157.66.11.182.5.1192069293.squirrel@canuckster.org> Liberal/MMP > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > results. > > I - MOST SINCERELY - do not wish to see flames, nor fire of any kind. > Just the truth. If you don't wish to speak, then please don't - as is > our norm. :-) > > I voted Green, For MMP. > > [PS - If you haven't voted yet and wish to drop a line on this thread, > please vote _first_. Thanks.] > > -- > Scott Elcomb > http://www.psema4.com/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 03:15:47 2007 From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David C. Chipman) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:15:47 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071010231547.250d800c@david.chipman> Hi there, I voted NDP, and for MMP. Doubly failed (sigh...) -David -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 04:17:56 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:17:56 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710102117u4cda0900lb821f9b4a600e39f@mail.gmail.com> I also voted Green, for MMP. The Green vote was more against everyone else than it was for the Greens, but I wouldn't have been upset if my local Green had won. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 04:32:55 2007 From: andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Heagle) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:32:55 -0400 Subject: Now that that is over with.... Message-ID: <200710110032.55762.andrew@logaan.com> Hello, Since we had that big debate of FPTP vs. MMP, and during the discussion many people said something along the lines of "Well, (FPTP|MMP) may not be the best, but it is certainly better than (MMP|FPTP)" It made me wonder, if you could choose a new electoral system, which would you choose from this list and why? http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/democracy/types.html Feel free to add any types that may be missing. Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 04:46:05 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:46:05 -0400 Subject: Now that that is over with.... In-Reply-To: <200710110032.55762.andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200710110032.55762.andrew@logaan.com> Message-ID: <470DAA8D.5060704@telly.org> Andrew Heagle wrote: > http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/democracy/types.html Of those, I prefer the Alternative Vote / Instant Runoff system However, just as important to me as the election technique is an effective (but not frivolous) recall system. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 05:03:08 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:03:08 -0400 Subject: Most expensive 24 songs ever In-Reply-To: <4705DF6B.9213.C029774-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org> References: <014c01c80731$4ef0e060$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <4705DF6B.9213.C029774@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <20071011050308.GB18560@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 06:53:31AM -0400, Paul King wrote > Why the choice of this woman? I also wonder if there was any evidence > that someone else used her computer to download tunes. The article > didn't seem clear. My understanding is that every other case where the defendant has pled not guilty, the RIAA have eventually dropped charges, after causing the defendant to run up a large legal bill. Apparently this case was so-o-o-o-o-o-o obvious that the RIAA were willing to risk going to trial, where they backed off every other time. Unlike Canada, in the USA, it's OK for jurors to talk to the media about what went on in jury deliberations. There is an article about one juror's reaction (warning for the squeamish; use of F***-word) at... http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/riaa-juror-we-w.html -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 05:06:19 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:06:19 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071011010619.263a22dc@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > results. NDP, for MMP. I am ashamed to admit that I chickened out of voting Green, because I knew that under our current system they haven't got a snowball's chance in Hell. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Lucy Liu: That was incredible, Bender. You're like Jackie Chan before he got all doughy. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 05:21:42 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:21:42 -0400 Subject: I don't want to cross post to this political mail list but ............ Message-ID: <1192080102.19044.600.camel@stan64.site> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7034828.stm This made my day!! I hope it happens. Something like this could double, triple ..... x10 the number of people working on linux and FLOSS in 10 years. Also, if it works, (we had a thread about a year ago on why Canada schools don;t use linux), it will be very hard for IT in schools to ignore it, where we all figure they do now because (1) you never get fired for choosing MS, (2) the greasing that the decision makes receive. Anyways, sorry for the cross post, but I thought it was exciting news. I didn't vote by the way, being a middle age , honky, male, with post SS education, statistically more time then not, this is Conservative land, and I don't buck the trend, but I thought all the candidates were on crack this time out, and the vote issue, lets get past the 2000 year old roman system where info was disbursed by word of mouth and horse back riders. I think we can use the Internet now, and actually go to the people to see what they want on a issue by issue basis. Personally, I can't even vote any more, I mix fed and prov here, but, I believe in massive spending to Health Care (NDP), but i support privatization too (PC) (i.e. tax the purchase of the private, and give it to public), I support environmental issues probably more then Lib and PC do, I don't think we should have anymore school board systems, the economies of scale are against us on that one. Lib's want to give more $$$ to health care, but havn't been informed that the Doctors leaving the Prov are the issue, but they don't see that. I don't support sending troops to wars that a bunch of f---ups for 100 years have caused, (this shit has been cooking even before Bush Sr. was in diapers) but do support honoring treaties for participation, and peace keeping. So basically i am f--ked. So bring on a referendum on key issues, if for no other reason then to officially get public opinion, because no party is going to do it for me, they are all smoking crack prov & fed alike. I may vote federal for the least crooked party, and right now i think that is PC's, but that could change, I think the Libs are still stealing everything that isn't bolted down, but will see. Voting based on the least crooked party however is very pathetic, oddly enough I know many who do just that, and then its really just a question of figuring out which is the least crooked. Liberals under Cretian set the standard in the crooked dept., and it might take a while to get all the Cretchies out of the system. Having said that, any country (that isn't like Aussi land) who doesn't fine their people for not voting should give their heads a shake (that means us), but having said that, I doubt it would fix my issues above. However, it might follow that they would have mandatory vote on referendums, so that would be sweet. p.s. I know there's not PC's anymore just C's, but its a hard habit to break. oh crap now i think i totally did cross post myself :) -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:01:22 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:01:22 +0000 Subject: I don't want to cross post to this political mail list but ............ In-Reply-To: <1192080102.19044.600.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192080102.19044.600.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710102301t6e476d6md5b4de3220d31fbf@mail.gmail.com> hmm. Actually at the moment I work in a school district and we've been slowly moving more towards linux over time. For quite awhile our elementary schools have had thin-client Linux labs. They were pretty dumpy for a long time though, since the district was running with a lot of used hardware machines ranged from between Pentium to P-3. Icewm was the general desktop, although after joining up I added iDesk to allow for at least some nice backgrounds and desktop icon support. It was ugly, but we tended to skimp on the desktops and then have more loaded servers so stuff could be run remotely with X-forwarding. Even if the desktop was a big win95'esque, they could still run recent versions of OO and firefox etc Now that the ball has been rolling, we've rolled out faster client's, so it's somewhat of a thick-client setup with all storage on the network (no hard drives, PXE boot) but most apps running locally. Full KDE Desktops, 3d acceleration, and even Beryl just so people can go "oooo." Whole schools are in the processes of being converted. So far things are looking decent. The biggest fallback is some user re-education, and that required software (such as simply accounting) lacks native linux versions. These are currently run through a special server that runs multiple VM's for different sites, connected to through NX and rDesktop. That any dumb things, like when one of our techs decided to hook the school up with daisy-chained 10/100 switches and no gigabit uplinks (doesn't work very well when literally everything is run through the network). Of course server downtime because a very major issue as well, as well as network integrity and wiring, etc. As we're connecting locations through centralized fibre I'm hoping this issue will lessen as offsite backups and server-pods with redundancy an be connected for more locations. Still, cool to see. There's definitely a major cost in infrastructure upgrades, and issues with proprietary software, but overall centralized administration is becoming easier, hardware replacement is a snap (just replace the box and re-register the MAC), and the desktop environment + features are looking better every day. Sadly, we may have to treat a few cases of frozen-bubble-addiction shortly, but hey, it's better than solitaire! On 10/11/07, tleslie wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7034828.stm > > This made my day!! > I hope it happens. > Something like this could double, triple ..... x10 the > number of people working on linux and FLOSS in 10 years. > Also, if it works, (we had a thread about a year ago on why > Canada schools don;t use linux), it will be very hard for > IT in schools to ignore it, where we all figure they do > now because (1) you never get fired for choosing MS, > (2) the greasing that the decision makes receive. > > Anyways, sorry for the cross post, > but I thought it was exciting news. > > I didn't vote by the way, > being a middle age , honky, male, with post SS education, > statistically more time then not, this is Conservative > land, and I don't buck the trend, > but I thought all the candidates were on > crack this time out, and the vote issue, > lets get past the 2000 year old roman system > where info was disbursed by word of mouth and > horse back riders. I think we can use the Internet > now, and actually go to the people to see what they > want on a issue by issue basis. > Personally, I can't even vote any more, > I mix fed and prov here, but, > I believe in massive spending to Health Care (NDP), > but i support privatization too (PC) > (i.e. tax the purchase of the private, and give it to public), > I support environmental issues probably more then > Lib and PC do, > I don't think we should have anymore school > board systems, the economies of scale > are against us on that one. > Lib's want to give more $$$ to health care, but > havn't been informed that the Doctors leaving > the Prov are the issue, but they don't see that. > I don't support sending troops to wars > that a bunch of f---ups for 100 years have caused, > (this shit has been cooking even before Bush Sr. > was in diapers) but do support honoring treaties for participation, > and peace keeping. > > So basically i am f--ked. > So bring on a referendum on key issues, > if for no other reason then to officially > get public opinion, > because no party is going to do it for me, > they are all smoking crack prov & fed alike. > > I may vote federal for the least crooked party, and > right now i think that is PC's, but that could change, > I think the Libs are still stealing everything that isn't > bolted down, but will see. Voting based on the least crooked > party however is very pathetic, oddly enough I know many who > do just that, and then its really just a question of > figuring out which is the least crooked. > Liberals under Cretian set the standard in the crooked > dept., and it might take a while to get all the > Cretchies out of the system. > > Having said that, any country (that isn't like Aussi land) > who doesn't fine their people for not voting should give their > heads a shake (that means us), but having said that, > I doubt it would fix my issues above. However, it might > follow that they would have mandatory vote on referendums, > so that would be sweet. > > p.s. I know there's not PC's anymore just C's, but its a hard habit to > break. > > oh crap now i think i totally did cross post myself :) > > > -tl > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:05:14 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:05:14 +0000 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <200710101842.21722.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> <200710101842.21722.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710102305q1d339b99x2b3779f136850763@mail.gmail.com> Tux party? How about an open-source party? You can use a penguin as a mascot if you think it might help :-) Well, not quite open-source, but I wonder if a political party based on an open-communication and open-source paradigms might work from a social/governmental perspective. Who do we nominate? Oh, and I'm still not actually a GTA resident, just popping in and out from BC to see the girlfriend and looking for work there, so no votes here yet. On 10/10/07, Gary Layng wrote: > I'm disappointed. > > We had Liberals, NDP, Tories, Family, Green, Libertarian, but no Tux Party!!!! > > :P > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 16:45, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > I know there's a certain etiquette involved with Provinciial/Federal > > Elections so I'm looking for volunteers to help me understand how > > others in +_our_+ FOSS community see things. No reasons, just > > results. > > > > I - MOST SINCERELY - do not wish to see flames, nor fire of any kind. > > Just the truth. If you don't wish to speak, then please don't - as is > > our norm. :-) > > > > I voted Green, For MMP. > > > > [PS - If you haven't voted yet and wish to drop a line on this thread, > > please vote _first_. Thanks.] > > -- > there's no place like 127.0.0.1 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:09:18 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:09:18 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470DBE0E.4010001@utoronto.ca> Hmmm, Well I am the CFO for the NDP candidate in Eglinton-Lawrence and I have been arguing for MMP, so I think everybody can deduce how I voted. The voter turnout is looking pretty crappy at about 51.3% Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:09:59 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:09:59 +0000 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470C1C43.1050607-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710102309t2d58ceb5qb7f69e8693a98c7c@mail.gmail.com> True. But parties can be greedy. A lot of politicians also go with the perspective that if you stick it to the voters early, but do lots of nice things later, you're still likely to do well in the polls due to short attention spans (which does tend to hold true in many occasions). I deeply fear the fact that many of our MTV generation have the attention span of a hyperactive gerbil On 10/10/07, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> Is this what people really want? Is this worth making majority > >> governments an aberration and reducing the influence of independents? > >> I don' t want MPPs who are reduced to yes/no switches, with no public > >> accountability and no need to bind with local constituents. These > >> MPPs don' t need to campaign; the party can simply parade out smooth > >> talkers -- who aren't even on the list -- to explain and attack, > >> while appointing parliamentarians who can't relate to people. > >> > > > > That's why we have a 4 year election cycle. The one thing I haven't seen > > anyone mention is that if after 4 years, a clique of backroom > > coalitions inside parties etc. are dictating policy that we > > constituents don't agree with, the popular vote is an easy and > > effective way to crush said party's MMP seats, without voters needing > > to fear that voting for their local candidate will hinder that. > > > > It's a good way to get parties to at least maintain a positive outward > > appearance to avoid loosing ground to their competition. Most people > > vote based on superficials anyways. > > > I was at a FPTP v MMP debate last week with Andrew Coyne and I thought > he put it very well. Parties aren't suicidal. If parties engage in > backroom dealing that upsets their supporters, they will be punished at > the next election. Similarly if they continually put party hacks on > their lists that no one wants. No different than what we have now, > really. It's not like there is a mechanism in Ontario where an MPP can > get booted out if their constituents are unhappy with them. (Whether > there should be such a mechanism is another question.) So really, > there'd be very little difference in accountability there, it would all > come down to the next election. > > Cheers, > Marcus > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:22:25 2007 From: jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I don't want to cross post to this political mail list but ............ In-Reply-To: <1192080102.19044.600.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192080102.19044.600.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <40005.66.11.182.5.1192083745.squirrel@canuckster.org> Russian public agencies are using Mandriva... http://www.mandriva.com/archives/en/company/press/pr/russian_public_agencies_choose_mandriva.html I use Mandriva on the desktop and am a member of Mandriva's club so I think this is pretty cool -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 06:23:56 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:23:56 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <470DBE0E.4010001-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> <470DBE0E.4010001@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <470DC17C.3070802@utoronto.ca> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Hmmm, Well I am the CFO for the NDP candidate in Eglinton-Lawrence and I > have been arguing for MMP, so I think everybody can deduce how I voted. > > The voter turnout is looking pretty crappy at about 51.3% > Oops, I think I spoke too soon as this figure doesn't include the advanced polls. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 11:17:12 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:17:12 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <20071010231547.250d800c-lQMCrfjKGrJ3Ex1Y5TzZUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> <20071010231547.250d800c@david.chipman> Message-ID: <470E0638.6080109@rogers.com> David C. Chipman wrote: > Hi there, > > I voted NDP, and for MMP. Doubly failed (sigh...) > So, YOU'RE the one! ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 11:20:25 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:20:25 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071011112025.GA20618@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 04:45:26PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote As a small-c conservative with a bit of libertarian mixed in, I've voted Conservative most of my life. The exceptions have been when the allegedly conservative party was run by a Red Tory. I switched to Reform when they came to Ontario, and then Alliance, and back to CPC (glad they got rid of the word "progressive"). When I'm faced with two Liberal candidates, I choose the lesser of two evils. I voted Liberal for the first time in my life this election. I liked McGuinty's show of fiscal sanity in admitting that we simply couldn't afford a multi-billion dollar Expo 2015. Tory was pushing for some way to save it. I was disappointed in Harper in that he hid behind an old Liberal policy when he turned down writing a blank cheque for Expo 2015. But at least he didn't waste our money either. I voted against MMP. Our representatives should be elected directly and individually by the people, and not as part of a list. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 12:44:11 2007 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:44:11 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <200710101737.37744.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <408ae1640710090720j7bff0a01oa5617abb5efcd476@mail.gmail.com> <408ae1640710101429v42b388eauf1daa7770f5c9625@mail.gmail.com> <200710101737.37744.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <470E1A9B.3070306@netdirect.ca> Gary Layng wrote: > And here I rushed to get my registration through the fax before 12:00 today > > Ah well, at least it's done. > > For my fellow procrastinators, is it still at $40? > Registration will be disabled on the site Thursday afternoon. We want to be flexible, but there are some logistics issues in taking payment too late. We don't want to lose track of a payment because our database is "in transit". On-site payments are $60 for general admission and $40 for students payable by cash only. There is an ATM on the premises. -- Register for the Ontario Linux Fest Conference today! A Linux Conference for users by users. -- *John Van Ostrand* *Net Direct Inc.* CTO, co-CEO 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 map Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Ph: 866-883-1172 ext.5102 *Linux Solutions / IBM Hardware* Fx: 519-883-8533 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 15:54:29 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:54:29 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <470DBE0E.4010001-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710101345w7b132b68n2aeaf22f985f8fd5@mail.gmail.com> <470DBE0E.4010001@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <200710111154.35768.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 11, 2007 02:09:18 am Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Hmmm, Well I am the CFO for the NDP candidate in Eglinton-Lawrence > and I have been arguing for MMP, so I think everybody can deduce how > I voted. > > The voter turnout is looking pretty crappy at about 51.3% CBC has this: 52.6%, a record low. So hooray for those who voted, http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ontariovotes2007/story/2007/10/11/ov-turnout-071010.html And those who voted Liberal, they captured 42% of the popular vote. That's ~1.85 million or so of the 4.4million who voted, and of a total 8.8million eligible voters. Yay democracy and to the silent tyranny/apathy of the masses! Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 16:15:21 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:15:21 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470D65E9.5000809-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <20071010163259.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470D5D0A.8090900@utoronto.ca> <470D65E9.5000809@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20071011121521.5dea0810@node1.freeyourmachine.org> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > At any rate, I think one of the great > > injustices of this whole process was that all the work that the Citizens > > Assembly did was hardly distributed at all and as a result basically no > > one has a clue about it and think this proposal just fell from the sky > > or someplace even more insidious. > > Who knows? MMP might win by accident. The ballot had so much text on it > that I can imagine those with poor English skills could have voted > opposite to their intentions. ...or we could have ended up with a ton of votes for Pat Buchanan. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: I need a calculator. Fry: You are a calculator. Bender: I need a good calculator. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 16:16:21 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:16:21 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <20071010163941.GR4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <470C6F68.80103@telly.org> <20071010163941.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071011121621.7255a55d@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 02:21:28AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > PS: Last night's Rick Mercer Report did a nice piece on the vote the > > video of it is available at http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/ > > Rick Mercer is great. Can we have him as prime minister? I like his policies on Americans ;) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "Tell the Donbot I'm quitting organized crime. From now on I'll stick to the regular kind." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 16:17:16 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT]: Poll: How'd you vote? (And why I'm asking...) In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710102305q1d339b99x2b3779f136850763-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710102305q1d339b99x2b3779f136850763@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <768137.72123.qm@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > Tux party? How about an open-source party? You can > use a penguin as a > mascot if you think it might help :-) Well if it were an open-source party the *BSD people would want Beastie as a mascot: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon or Puffy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffy_%28mascot%29 or one of the other open source mascots. > Well, not quite open-source, but I wonder if a > political party based > on an open-communication and open-source paradigms > might work from a > social/governmental perspective. > > Who do we nominate? Linus Torvalds - Benevolent Dictator Alan Cox - Deputy Benevolent Dictator Richard Stallman - Ministry of Education and Faith Theo de Raadt - Ministry of Curmudgeon Affairs Eric S. Raymond - Ministry of Business Development Pamela Jones - Ministry of Justice FreeBSD Board Members - Senior Civil Servants Steve Ballmer - Leader of the Disloyal Opposition [snip] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 17:48:57 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:48:57 -0400 Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <20071011121621.7255a55d-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <200710091425.25617.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> <470C1C43.1050607@utoronto.ca> <470C20CC.5040409@telly.org> <470C2501.8000206@utoronto.ca> <470C34C3.4030401@telly.org> <470C5D3B.1070304@utoronto.ca> <470C6F68.80103@telly.org> <20071010163941.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071011121621.7255a55d@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <470E6209.6070704@telly.org> JoeHill wrote: >> Rick Mercer is great. Can we have him as prime minister? >> > > I like his policies on Americans ;) > Well, at least he likes talking to them. :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 19:53:09 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:53:09 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <1191938620.7098.63.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <1191938620.7098.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <470E7F25.5030902@rogers.com> Has anyone heard where the "Welcome Party" is to be held? According to the web site, registered attendees were supposed to be notified by email yesterday. Since it's supposed to be secret, a reply to my personal email is fine. tnx jk Richard Weait wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > > Toronto, Ontario - 09 October 2007: Ontario Linux Fest holds its > inaugural conference in Toronto, Ontario at the Toronto Congress Centre > at 650 Dixon Road on Saturday, October 13, 2007. > > Free Software leaders including Jon 'maddog' Hall of Linux > International, Theodore Ts'o of IBM and Louis Suarez-Potts of > OpenOffice.org and many others are presenting topics of interest to > Linux and Open Source enthusiasts and the general public alike. Learn > about the latest innovations in computer software, flexible telephony, > software freedom and your rights, and meet the luminaries who are > revolutionizing our digital world. > > The Ontario Linux Fest is a day-long conference on Saturday 13 October > 2007 at the Toronto Congress Centre. Presentations run from 8:30am to > 5:30pm. It is organized by members of the Linux community for the Linux > community and the general public. Generous sponsorship from Google, > Research In Motion, IBM, Novell and other Free Software supporters make > Ontario Linux Fest possible. > > Free Software refers to computer software that protects the rights of > every computer user. It can be used, studied, modified, repaired, > improved and redistributed to other computer users. > > John Van Ostrand > > The Ontario Linux Fest > 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 > Waterloo, Ontario CA N2L 5C6 > Phone: 877-TUX-FEST > Phone: 866-883-1172 x 5102 > Fax: 866-883-8533 > > sponsorship-Q2zETkUEcRyw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org > www.onlinux.ca > > > -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 20:04:17 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Parallel port through the network? Message-ID: <61092.69.157.194.50.1192133057.squirrel@secure.starnix.com> Hey all. This is a weird one. A client is using an old mutant of Business Basic on an almost-as-old Unix box. I've got them set up doing most of the printing through CUPS but there's a problem. They were used to a feature of the Basic that allowed them to write directly to /dev/lpt1 (ie, the parallel port) and bypass the traditional SVR3 Unix print spooler. This allowed very fine ability to start and stop, even on large runs. While they like most of the network printing, they miss this feature on networked printers. Is there any way that I can set up a device (yes, it's actually looking for a device, you can't give it a file or program to pipe to) that would take its input and simply rifle the data over to the printer residing at a specific IP address? I'm looking right now into the possibility of using a named pipe (with a daemon running that listens to the pipe -- but any other suggestions are welcome. Last resort is a number of very long parallel printer cables. I recall Parallel extenders/boosters that allowed you to use regular phone cable for distances longer than parallel cables would normally support -- but I don't know if they're still being made. The printers are Printronix band printers -- the network ones are bring connected using DLink print servers to their parallel ports. Any help is appreciated. They are looking to move the whole thing from Business Basic to a LAMP platform but the printing need is immediate. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 20:27:44 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:27:44 -0700 Subject: Parallel port through the network? In-Reply-To: <61092.69.157.194.50.1192133057.squirrel-SDEzVqVlFnWye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <61092.69.157.194.50.1192133057.squirrel@secure.starnix.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710111327s31d55856jfd947f236df36201@mail.gmail.com> Just out of curiosity, what "fine" amount of detail is needed that a good-quality print server with an LPR or other queue can't provide? My biggest issues with killing print jobs has been more with printers that wouldn't clear their internal memory when they started, and needed a good old manual-poweroff to clear things up. On 10/11/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hey all. This is a weird one. > > A client is using an old mutant of Business Basic on an almost-as-old Unix > box. I've got them set up doing most of the printing through CUPS but > there's a problem. > > They were used to a feature of the Basic that allowed them to write > directly to /dev/lpt1 (ie, the parallel port) and bypass the traditional > SVR3 Unix print spooler. This allowed very fine ability to start and stop, > even on large runs. While they like most of the network printing, they > miss this feature on networked printers. > > Is there any way that I can set up a device (yes, it's actually looking > for a device, you can't give it a file or program to pipe to) that would > take its input and simply rifle the data over to the printer residing at a > specific IP address? > > I'm looking right now into the possibility of using a named pipe (with a > daemon running that listens to the pipe -- but any other suggestions are > welcome. > > Last resort is a number of very long parallel printer cables. I recall > Parallel extenders/boosters that allowed you to use regular phone cable > for distances longer than parallel cables would normally support -- but I > don't know if they're still being made. > > The printers are Printronix band printers -- the network ones are bring > connected using DLink print servers to their parallel ports. > > Any help is appreciated. They are looking to move the whole thing from > Business Basic to a LAMP platform but the printing need is immediate. > > > - Evan > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 20:38:15 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:38:15 -0700 Subject: Most expensive 24 songs ever In-Reply-To: <20071011050308.GB18560-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <014c01c80731$4ef0e060$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <4705DF6B.9213.C029774@sciguy.vex.net> <20071011050308.GB18560@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710111338n1def370fl762e669ef25ec035@mail.gmail.com> It's an interesting case. I wonder how much of assigning the penalties was based on interpretation of the actual damages, and how much was just that jury members were disgruntled that the defendant supposedly thought she'd "put one over them." The jury interview seems to indicate a certain amount of personal vendetta in the amount. On 10/10/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 06:53:31AM -0400, Paul King wrote > > > Why the choice of this woman? I also wonder if there was any evidence > > that someone else used her computer to download tunes. The article > > didn't seem clear. > > My understanding is that every other case where the defendant has > pled not guilty, the RIAA have eventually dropped charges, after causing > the defendant to run up a large legal bill. Apparently this case was > so-o-o-o-o-o-o obvious that the RIAA were willing to risk going to trial, > where they backed off every other time. > > Unlike Canada, in the USA, it's OK for jurors to talk to the media > about what went on in jury deliberations. There is an article about one > juror's reaction (warning for the squeamish; use of F***-word) at... > http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/riaa-juror-we-w.html > > -- > Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 > Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? > A. I think it would be a good idea. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 21:42:22 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:42:22 -0400 Subject: PRESS RELEASE Ontario Linux Fest In-Reply-To: <470E7F25.5030902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1191938620.7098.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <470E7F25.5030902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <408ae1640710111442s57971573p72fb18ec24d73bea@mail.gmail.com> On 10/11/07, James Knott wrote: > Has anyone heard where the "Welcome Party" is to be held? According to > the web site, registered attendees were supposed to be notified by email > yesterday. Since it's supposed to be secret, a reply to my personal The registration was extended a bit and the email will go out once we close it. That's depending on one swamped organizer, but could be any minute. We checked the secret location today and it is an awesome room. No Bat-pole, or Bat-crime-computer, but still pretty good, even with those caveats. For your convenience, and to allow you to prepare a bit. The secret location is close to the venue for the main event and the welcome party on Friday starts at 7:30. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 22:43:22 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:43:22 -0400 Subject: Cheap UPS (again) In-Reply-To: <20071005125334.GV4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071005125334.GV4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1192142602.19044.635.camel@stan64.site> Just got mine, i feel like i stole it (for 199$), many thanks!. I'm putting that puppy on to the entertainment center so i can still play PS3/360/GC for 20 minutes and not lose my level if the power goes down for a bit :) -tl On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 08:53 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Dell is yet again offering their (well it is actually an APC) SmartUPS > 1500 at the silly price of $199 (including shipping). Their normal > price is $699 (not including shipping) which is of course about $200 to > $300 more than any sane company charges for it, but at the same time > $199 is about $200 less than any sane company charges too (not > accounting for shipping). It works with serial or USB using apcupsd and > is very simple to setup. If you are in need of a workout, just move it > around a bit. > > So in other words if you are considering getting a UPS and want the best > UPS you can run on a 110V 15A outlet, then this is the one to get. > > I already got one last time they had this offer, and my dad got one the > time before that. I know someone mentioned not having a UPS and really > having to get around to getting one in the last couple of days, so now > there is no good excuse left. > > I suppose the kingston 4GB USB key for $34 is not a bad deal either for > that matter. > > http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/days_of_deals?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 20:24:38 2007 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Parallel port through the network? Message-ID: <200710112024.l9BKOcJr077043@localhost.generalconcepts.com> I would think you should be able to use some invocation of netcat and a named pipe. With perhaps a wrapper script that does the mknod if needed and then runs netcat with the right args (I've sometimes run into problems where netcat exits after one connection rather than hanging around as I wanted it to). There is the Aten IC-164 parallel extender that claims up to 1200 feet over RJ11 cable. e.g. http://www.lextec.com/ven_at_switch.html which might be simpler? (And there are probably others of course.) Hope that helps ... John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 01:20:44 2007 From: jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can't send email to hotmail Message-ID: <54344.66.11.182.5.1192152044.squirrel@canuckster.org> Greetings, I am using Gentoo Linux and Qmail and I can't send email to hotmail. Everything works fine with gmail though. Anyone know why? Thanks Jay -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 02:21:39 2007 From: jay-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can't send email to hotmail In-Reply-To: <54344.66.11.182.5.1192152044.squirrel-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A@public.gmane.org> References: <54344.66.11.182.5.1192152044.squirrel@canuckster.org> Message-ID: <34169.66.11.182.5.1192155699.squirrel@canuckster.org> > Greetings, > > I am using Gentoo Linux and Qmail and I can't send email to hotmail. > Everything works fine with gmail though. Anyone know why? > > Thanks > > Jay I should add that if I receive an email from hotmail, then reply to the message then it gets sent properly. I don't understand why a new email sent to hotmail won't work, but a reply will work? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 14:00:19 2007 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can't send email to hotmail In-Reply-To: <34169.66.11.182.5.1192155699.squirrel-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A@public.gmane.org> References: <34169.66.11.182.5.1192155699.squirrel@canuckster.org> Message-ID: <649973.15391.qm@web60123.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason Carson wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > I am using Gentoo Linux and Qmail and I can't send > email to hotmail. Hello, hotmail is notorious for this; it will frequently and silently delete arriving messages that it classifies as spam. Some things to try: http://bliki.rimuhosting.com/space/knowledgebase/linux/mail/mail+not+going+through Good luck, Fernando > > Everything works fine with gmail though. Anyone > know why? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > I should add that if I receive an email from > hotmail, then reply to the > message then it gets sent properly. I don't > understand why a new email > sent to hotmail won't work, but a reply will work? > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 14:23:34 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:23:34 -0400 Subject: ISP woes Message-ID: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) began disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection time. This is still happening now. I called Primus and they were very unhelpful bordering on abusive. The agent told me that since the DSL modem stayed in sync during my disconnects the problem must be because I'm using Linux. I explained to the agent that I have not performed any updates on the system that would coincide with the problem but there was no change in attitude. Additionally, I have rebooted the modem, rebooted my computer and found no Ethernet errors. Yet the problem persists and my ISP has currently washed their hands of it, although a supervisor is supposed to call me back when they get it a noon. Any suggestions? -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 10:11:01 up 1:26, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.06, 0.02 http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 14:35:02 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071012142334.GA4882-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/12/07, Neil Watson wrote: > Any suggestions? No immediate suggestions, 'cause I don't know anything about DSL, but the longer-term solution would be to switch providers. OntarioDSL/TekSavvy seems to be well-liked on this forum, and that's who I use. No complaints here. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 14:57:22 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:57:22 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071012105722.4e3d48c1@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/12/07, Neil Watson wrote: > > Any suggestions? > > No immediate suggestions, 'cause I don't know anything about DSL, but > the longer-term solution would be to switch providers. > OntarioDSL/TekSavvy seems to be well-liked on this forum, and that's > who I use. No complaints here. Giant 'me too' on this. I was having very very similar problems with Sympatico, including the 'tech support' helplessness. Been with Teksavvy since May and not a single problem. Their responses to my queries by e-mail for things like adding an e-mail address usually take about 5 minutes to complete. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: Where's Captain Bender? Off catastrophizing some other planet? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 15:02:46 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:02:46 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470F8C96.8040000@pppoe.ca> Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/12/07, Neil Watson wrote: > >> Any suggestions? >> > > No immediate suggestions, 'cause I don't know anything about DSL, but > the longer-term solution would be to switch providers. > OntarioDSL/TekSavvy seems to be well-liked on this forum, and that's > who I use. No complaints here. > > Ian > > Same here. If later you should decide to look for another provider. you may want to consider TekSavvy. Ontario DSL was a reseller for TekSavvy. TekSavvy may not be the fastest or the cheapest but they are stable. They support Linux (the website mentions rp-pppoe and their reps seem conversant with Linux). When I asked some years back, they had no problems with customers running servers. They also offer static IPs and subnets. Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 15:14:01 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:14:01 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <470F8C96.8040000-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <7ac602420710120735i59768ddehed2d38dc54962d7d@mail.gmail.com> <470F8C96.8040000@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <200710121114.05263.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 12, 2007 11:02:46 am Meng Cheah wrote: > Ian Petersen wrote: > > On 10/12/07, Neil Watson wrote: > >> Any suggestions? > > > > No immediate suggestions, 'cause I don't know anything about DSL, > > but the longer-term solution would be to switch providers. > > OntarioDSL/TekSavvy seems to be well-liked on this forum, and > > that's who I use. No complaints here. > > > > Ian > > Same here. If later you should decide to look for another provider. > you may want to consider TekSavvy. > Ontario DSL was a reseller for TekSavvy. TekSavvy may not be the > fastest or the cheapest but they are stable. > > They support Linux (the website mentions rp-pppoe and their reps seem > conversant with Linux). > When I asked some years back, they had no problems with customers > running servers. They also offer static IPs and subnets. And peer1 or cogent bandwidth depending on your needs (latency vs. transfer respectively). Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 16:31:26 2007 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:31:26 -0400 Subject: Can't send email to hotmail In-Reply-To: <54344.66.11.182.5.1192152044.squirrel-ttDcVxANFaNM656bX5wj8A@public.gmane.org> References: <54344.66.11.182.5.1192152044.squirrel@canuckster.org> Message-ID: <200710121231.27295.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On October 11, 2007 09:20:44 pm Jason Carson wrote: > Greetings, > > I am using Gentoo Linux and Qmail and I can't send email to hotmail. > Everything works fine with gmail though. Anyone know why? > > Thanks > > Jay > > -- One thing to look at, if you are running your own MX server, would be to add an SPF record to your DNS entries. I found that this was required to avoid some email providers from tagging your email as spam. http://www.openspf.org/ -- Jason Shein Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 647 ) - 505 - 5002 http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 18:02:55 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071012142334.GA4882-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Neil Watson wrote: > Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) began > disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection time. > This is still happening now. I called Primus and they were very > unhelpful bordering on abusive. The agent told me that since the DSL > modem stayed in sync during my disconnects the problem must be because > I'm using Linux. I explained to the agent that I have not performed any Sorry to hear they took this position. I always use an ISP which officially supports Linux for two reasons: 1. They won't try to blame Linux or deny help when they hear I'm not using MS-Windows. 2. They employee people with Linux skills which is good for Linux and the open source industry as a whole. If the ISP won't resolve the problem I suggest changing to an ISP which officially supports the OS you choose to use. Teksavvy, while popular around here, stated they did not support Linux when I asked them a couple of years back. Perhaps this has changed. I am currently with Cybersurf. I have had a few dropouts and othe issues but no worse than any other ISP I've been with for DSL. They do officially support Linux. I have no affiliation with either Teksavvy or Cybersurf except being a client of the latter. Good luck. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 20:46:30 2007 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) Message-ID: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Recently, someone on this list (I forget who that was) mentioned Amazon.COM having better prices than Amazon.CA. I checked last night for a few books that I am planning on getting and not only were the prices better but a couple of those books are not available new through Amazon.CA. So, to the OP or whom ever else has had experience ordering from Amazon.COM: are taxes charged on books ordered through Amazon.COM? Any other charges besides shipping & handling? Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 20:53:28 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:53:28 -0400 Subject: The last word on MMP? Message-ID: <470FDEC8.4060804@telly.org> http://www.thestar.com/article/266148 Interestingly, both the Star and the Globe recommended rejection of MMP -- flying in the face of excuses that the defeat should be blamed on confusion or ignorance. http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/266001 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071003.wempp1004/BNStory/ontarioelection2007 I actually am OK with the Globe's counter-proposal to MMP, but don't agree that we need to be in any rush to re-open the issue. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 20:58:20 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:58:20 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <178541.90750.qm-1iSqG+Z3bMiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470FDFEC.9080407@telly.org> Salman Ahmed wrote: > Recently, someone on this list (I forget who that was) mentioned > Amazon.COM having better prices than Amazon.CA. I checked last night > for a few books that I am planning on getting and not only were the > prices better but a couple of those books are not available new through > Amazon.CA. > > So, to the OP or whom ever else has had experience ordering from > Amazon.COM: are taxes charged on books ordered through Amazon.COM? Any > other charges besides shipping & handling? That might have been me. It was convenient in that I am visiting family in the US next week and simply instructed amazon.com to ship my books there. Having said that, I did note that amazon.com did list shipping prices to Canada (and the free shipping deals don't apply to Canada.) Books coming here from the US may be intercepted by customs; while they will not charge duty they may require the payment of GST on the order. (But then if you were ordering from amazon.ca you'd have to pay that anyway.) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 21:03:18 2007 From: dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org (Dominic Bonfiglio) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:03:18 -0400 Subject: question about laptop fan Message-ID: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> Hello, I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? Thanks, Dominic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 21:16:22 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:16:22 -0700 Subject: question about laptop fan In-Reply-To: <470FE116.4030908-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710121416h4dd75308k8db9129fbbaba63f@mail.gmail.com> Can you get at the fan? How about just giving it a good dose of compressed air to blow the crud out? Every now and then I pull the fan covers off my laptop (unlike many tough it's got an easily removable cover) and blow the fans out plus use tweezers to yoink the various bits of cat-hair etc that have tried to wind themselves around the fans. Not sure if that's so easy on the IBM, but in some cases you could still likely pull out the bigger bits. On 10/12/07, Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > Hello, > > I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two > weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind > of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a > fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few > attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet > research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing > or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their > fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my > computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? > > Thanks, > Dominic > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 21:49:07 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:49:07 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <178541.90750.qm-1iSqG+Z3bMiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470FEBD3.20105@rogers.com> Salman Ahmed wrote: > Recently, someone on this list (I forget who that was) mentioned > Amazon.COM having better prices than Amazon.CA. I checked last night > for a few books that I am planning on getting and not only were the > prices better but a couple of those books are not available new through > Amazon.CA. > > So, to the OP or whom ever else has had experience ordering from > Amazon.COM: are taxes charged on books ordered through Amazon.COM? Any > other charges besides shipping & handling? > > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border broker" fee. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 21:57:21 2007 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:57:21 -0400 Subject: question about laptop fan In-Reply-To: <470FE116.4030908-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> Message-ID: <470FEDC1.9090401@rogers.com> Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > Hello, > > I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two > weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind > of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a > fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few > attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet > research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing > or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their > fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my > computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? > > If you take it in for service I highly recommend a place on Eglinton, south side 1 1/2 blocks west if the Allen. Called the Notebook Store or something similar. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 21:56:35 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:56:35 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <470FEBD3.20105-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FEBD3.20105@rogers.com> Message-ID: <470FED93.2050805@telly.org> James Knott wrote: > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage > charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border > broker" fee. > Thanks to the competition from FedEx, UPS seems to handle border shipments roughly the same way now. I've received some shipments from the US that were not accomapnied by the old traditional "we're holding your package hostage at the border" scenario. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 22:00:19 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:00:19 -0400 Subject: The last word on MMP? In-Reply-To: <470FDEC8.4060804-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <470FDEC8.4060804@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/12/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > http://www.thestar.com/article/266148 > > Interestingly, both the Star and the Globe recommended rejection of MMP > -- flying in the face of excuses that the defeat should be blamed on > confusion or ignorance. There was an article in the Star today that pointed to the fact that based on the voting patterns in this election, had we had MMP, the biggest winner, by far, would have been the Progressive Conservatives. So yeah, with MMP, we might have a couple Green MPPs that we don't have. The Conservatives would have gained several times that many seats. Anyone that thought that MMP would be a "bonanza" for left-leaning representation, and therefore a "good thing," should think twice. It's most interesting that in the thread discussing peoples' voting patterns, the patterns make it pretty clear that those that reported in do not represent demographics even faintly similar to those of the province or of the city of Toronto... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 22:01:54 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:01:54 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <470FED93.2050805-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FEBD3.20105@rogers.com> <470FED93.2050805@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/12/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage > > charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border > > broker" fee. > > > Thanks to the competition from FedEx, UPS seems to handle border > shipments roughly the same way now. I've received some shipments from > the US that were not accomapnied by the old traditional "we're holding > your package hostage at the border" scenario. That's hopeful, though I won't believe it until I actually see it. I have had too many cases of paying UPS more "ransom" than my goods were worth... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 23:02:01 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:02:01 -0400 Subject: The last word on MMP? In-Reply-To: References: <470FDEC8.4060804@telly.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710121602w5d31f260v46b90f4ad0362c35@mail.gmail.com> On 10/12/07, Christopher Browne wrote: > So yeah, with MMP, we might have a couple Green MPPs that we don't > have. The Conservatives would have gained several times that many > seats. Well, that assumes that people would have cast both votes for the same party, which might be the majority position but without an actual MMP election, it's hard to predict the real outcome. I didn't read the article you mentioned, though, so maybe the seat-counts you're mentioning were so overwhelming that even a few "conflicted" voters wouldn't have made a difference. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 00:53:52 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:53:52 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <470FDFEC.9080407-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FDFEC.9080407@telly.org> Message-ID: <47101720.2080303@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Salman Ahmed wrote: > >> Recently, someone on this list (I forget who that was) mentioned >> Amazon.COM having better prices than Amazon.CA. I checked last night >> for a few books that I am planning on getting and not only were the >> prices better but a couple of those books are not available new through >> Amazon.CA. >> >> So, to the OP or whom ever else has had experience ordering from >> Amazon.COM: are taxes charged on books ordered through Amazon.COM? Any >> other charges besides shipping & handling? >> > > That might have been me. It was convenient in that I am visiting family > in the US next week and simply instructed amazon.com to ship my books > there. Having said that, I did note that amazon.com did list shipping > prices to Canada (and the free shipping deals don't apply to Canada.) > > Books coming here from the US may be intercepted by customs; while they > will not charge duty they may require the payment of GST on the order. > (But then if you were ordering from amazon.ca you'd have to pay that > anyway.) > You may also want to compare shipping costs ($4.99/shipment, $3.99/item for amazon.com vs $3.95/shipment and $1.95/item for amazon.ca), assuming $Can=$US. My brother who used to buy from amazon.com, claimed that he has not been charged for GST in the past. He now buys from amazon.ca. I think it depends on the particular books you want. Eg. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" is $16.80 (40% off from amazon.com) and $18.48 (50% off from amazon.ca). Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 03:07:02 2007 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <470FDFEC.9080407-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <470FDFEC.9080407@telly.org> Message-ID: <188656.36063.qm@web51812.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > That might have been me. It was convenient in that I am visiting family > in the US next week and simply instructed amazon.com to ship my books > there. Having said that, I did note that amazon.com did list shipping > prices to Canada (and the free shipping deals don't apply to Canada.) > > Books coming here from the US may be intercepted by customs; while they > will not charge duty they may require the payment of GST on the order. > (But then if you were ordering from amazon.ca you'd have to pay that > anyway.) > > - Evan Thanks for clarifying - I figured that the free shipping deals wouldn't apply to us. Oh well, they have a better selection and availability than amazon.ca. In the past I've been able to take advantage of friends & family traveling to/from the US but this time it seems I'll have to pay for S&H. Regards, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 03:12:23 2007 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <470FEBD3.20105-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <470FEBD3.20105@rogers.com> Message-ID: <717289.90330.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- James Knott wrote: > > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage > charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border > broker" fee. > I hope they provide the option to ship via USPS (US Postal Service). I've had very good experiences when receiving shipments from the US using USPS. They don't charge a brokerage fee - at least they haven't in the past. In any event, I'll be expensing this book order through my employer so let them charge me a brokerage fee if they wish! :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 03:17:17 2007 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <47101720.2080303-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <47101720.2080303@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <174208.92530.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Meng Cheah wrote: > You may also want to compare shipping costs ($4.99/shipment, $3.99/item > for amazon.com vs $3.95/shipment and $1.95/item for amazon.ca), assuming > $Can=$US. > > My brother who used to buy from amazon.com, claimed that he has not been > charged for GST in the past. > He now buys from amazon.ca. > > I think it depends on the particular books you want. > Eg. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" is $16.80 (40% off from > amazon.com) and $18.48 (50% off from amazon.ca). > > Meng > The main reason I am considering ordering from the US is availability of a specific book title: http://tinyurl.com/yuht7t Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C, 2nd Edition by Bruce Schneier The above book is not available through amazon.ca as a new book order but is readily available through amazon.COM. Otherwise I'd be shopping from amazon.ca in a heartbeat. Regards, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 07:00:28 2007 From: dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org (Dominic Bonfiglio) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:00:28 -0400 Subject: question about laptop fan In-Reply-To: <470FEDC1.9090401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> <470FEDC1.9090401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <47106D0C.1010805@gmx.de> Thanks for the advice, Stephen and Tyler. --Dominic Stephen wrote: > Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two >> weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind >> of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a >> fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few >> attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet >> research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing >> or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their >> fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my >> computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? >> >> > If you take it in for service I highly recommend a place on Eglinton, > south side 1 1/2 blocks west if the Allen. Called the Notebook Store > or something similar. > > Stephen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 10:59:30 2007 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 06:59:30 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071012142334.GA4882-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>; from tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org on Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 10:23:34 -0400 References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> On Fri Oct 12,2007 10:23:34 AM Neil Watson wrote: > Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) > began disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection > time. I'm having the exact same problem with a Bell Sympatico Business High Speed Ultra DSL link. It's been occuring since Wed. Oct. 10 at 8:14PM and still not resolved. Tech support said that they were 90% sure that it is my router, which is a PC running Coyote Linux. I swapped it with a different PC running BrazilFW Linux (the successor to Coyote) and the problem remained. When I called back they said I would have to connect a PC running a supported O/S (Windows or Mac) directly to the line to determine if it was my router or the DSL modem. I haven't had time to do that. My service is supposed to include a rental router as part of the package. I never got it but didn't bother asking for it since I use my own router. I've now asked for them to send me this router. On my second tech call I was told that it would be a combined DSL modem/router. It's not expected to arrive until Monday or Tuesday. I made a WireShark ethernet trace of the link between the DSL modem and the router. It showed many pauses and missing responses to messages sent from the router. (Whis this problem, missing responses to LCP echo requests is generally what causes the link to go down). However, there were also pauses in the some responses sent *from* the router, which is strange. Based on this, I had suspected that there was a problem with the modem, causing it to somehow frequently jam the ethernet line. Since you are reporting the same problem, and it seems unlikely that your modem went bad at the same time as mine, it's probably something at the other end. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 14:46:08 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:46:08 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> Message-ID: <20071013144608.GA1712@watson-wilson.ca> On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 06:59:30AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote: >On Fri Oct 12,2007 10:23:34 AM Neil Watson wrote: >>Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) >>began disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection >>time. > >I'm having the exact same problem with a Bell Sympatico Business High >Speed Ultra DSL link. It's been occuring since Wed. Oct. 10 at 8:14PM >and still not resolved. What area of the city do you live in? I'm in north east Markham. -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 16:15:43 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:15:43 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway Message-ID: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> Hi I've posted to the hardware list and am posting here for more potential "help" :-) My Speedtouch 546 gateway has "died". I cannot login to it; it will not answer. I also cannot reset it to "factory settings". I'm using an old Speedtouch 510 modem right now. A new Speedtouch 546 will cost about $150(inc. shipping and taxes). I'm considering alternatives, especially after seeing the Bell Sympatico 2Wire 2701HG gateway (with wireless). I need an ADSL gateway (modem-cum-router). Has anyone any recommendations or should I stick with the Speedtouch 546? Thanks. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 22:01:09 2007 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:01:09 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071013144608.GA1712-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> <20071013144608.GA1712@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <200710131801.10073.marc@lijour.net> On October 13, 2007 10:46:08 am Neil Watson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 06:59:30AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote: > >On Fri Oct 12,2007 10:23:34 AM Neil Watson wrote: > >>Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) > >>began disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection > >>time. > > > >I'm having the exact same problem with a Bell Sympatico Business High > >Speed Ultra DSL link. It's been occuring since Wed. Oct. 10 at 8:14PM > >and still not resolved. > > What area of the city do you live in? I'm in north east Markham. I jump in. I live near lawrence and victoria park, at 5km from the CO at least until last year. I don't know what happened to the infrastructure but now I get the full high speed service. The other day I call Magma (Primus) for a lock up. I told them I am using Linux and it was fine. The problem has been fixed by rebooting the dsl modem. Good luck! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 13 22:10:34 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:10:34 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <200710131801.10073.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> <20071013144608.GA1712@watson-wilson.ca> <200710131801.10073.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20071013221034.GD16386@watson-wilson.ca> I have gathered further information: I have performed some logging on the pppoe service. When the connection drops this is logged: Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: No response to 3 echo-requests Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: Serial link appears to be disconnected. Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: Connect time 5.7 minutes. The timestamps are accurate. During these drops the 'sync' light remains lit on the modem. Note the echo-requests message. I increased my pppoe software's lcp-echo-failure number to 6. Now the time between failures has increased but still averages less than 30 minutes. Now logged failures look as follows: Oct 13 17:57:27 ettin pppd[20159]: LCP terminated by peer Oct 13 17:57:27 ettin pppd[20159]: Connect time 5.9 minutes. This suggests that there is some latency in the WAN connection. Thoughts? -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 05:48:42 2007 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:48:42 -0400 Subject: The last word on MMP? In-Reply-To: References: <470FDEC8.4060804@telly.org> Message-ID: <4711ADBA.5070405@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/12/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> http://www.thestar.com/article/266148 >> >> Interestingly, both the Star and the Globe recommended rejection of MMP >> -- flying in the face of excuses that the defeat should be blamed on >> confusion or ignorance. > > There was an article in the Star today that pointed to the fact that > based on the voting patterns in this election, had we had MMP, the > biggest winner, by far, would have been the Progressive Conservatives. > > So yeah, with MMP, we might have a couple Green MPPs that we don't > have. The Conservatives would have gained several times that many > seats. The Conservatives deserve to have fair representation in the legislature. > > Anyone that thought that MMP would be a "bonanza" for left-leaning > representation, and therefore a "good thing," should think twice. Hmmm, although I am left wing I have a commitment to democracy. I was in favor of MMP because I think it favoured democracy (witness the recent election in Newfoundland) not because it would be a "bonanza" for left-leaning representation. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 10:48:36 2007 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 06:48:36 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071013144608.GA1712-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>; from tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org on Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 10:46:08 -0400 References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> <20071013144608.GA1712@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20071014104836.GA1985@localhost> On Sat Oct 13,2007 10:46:08 AM Neil Watson wrote: > What area of the city do you live in? I'm in north east Markham. Markham, just northwest of Hwy 7 and Woodbine. On Sat Oct 13,2007 06:10:34 PM Neil Watson wrote: > I have performed some logging on the pppoe service. When the > connection > drops this is logged: > Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: No response to 3 echo-requests > Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: Serial link appears to be > disconnected. > Oct 13 15:49:46 ettin pppd[2285]: Connect time 5.7 minutes. That's the same thing my logs were showing, among other thing. However, from around 3:47AM to now (about 3 hours) there has not been a problem. Hopefully It's been corrected by Bell. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 12:29:46 2007 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:29:46 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071012142334.GA4882-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <47120bb1.0c39400a.10d1.ffffc868@mx.google.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf > Of Neil Watson > Sent: Friday 12 October 2007 10:24 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: ISP woes > > Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now > Primus) began disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes > of connection time. > This is still happening now. I called Primus and they were > very unhelpful bordering on abusive. The agent told me that > since the DSL modem stayed in sync during my disconnects the > problem must be because I'm using Linux. I explained to the > agent that I have not performed any updates on the system > that would coincide with the problem but there was no change > in attitude. Additionally, I have rebooted the modem, > rebooted my computer and found no Ethernet errors. Yet the > problem persists and my ISP has currently washed their hands > of it, although a supervisor is supposed to call me back when > they get it a noon. > > Any suggestions? Executive Summary Short term: Push on Primus that your configuration is just fine and that it's a problem with the line, they need to open a ticket with Bell. Long term: (as everyone else has pointed out) if they won't take support seriously, then take your business elsewhere. There are many DSL providers, you don't have to stick with them. Longer Version: I've had similar problems with my connection. I'm a Sentex subscriber, and the connection would just drop intermittently. Sometimes it would come back in minutes, other times it would be out for hours, and then it would just come back. While Sentex didn't blame "Linux" they did claim that it was most likely my router and they were pretty good about helping to debug it. The proof came when right after the connection dropped, a Dell D810 running XP plugged straight into the modem couldn't connect despite the presence of the ADSL light. Sentex put in a ticket to Bell, and the problem disappeared. On following up, it sounded like they just tinkered with the DSLAM profile. It's not the first time that's happened. Good luck! -kms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 13:20:07 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 09:20:07 -0400 Subject: OLF: Thanks Message-ID: <408ae1640710140620r6daac54fx16579bd8fe472296@mail.gmail.com> http://onlinux.ca/thankyou -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 14:38:23 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:38:23 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <47101720.2080303-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FDFEC.9080407@telly.org> <47101720.2080303@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <471229DF.8090108@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Salman Ahmed wrote: >> >>> Recently, someone on this list (I forget who that was) mentioned >>> Amazon.COM having better prices than Amazon.CA. I checked last night >>> for a few books that I am planning on getting and not only were the >>> prices better but a couple of those books are not available new through >>> Amazon.CA. >>> >>> So, to the OP or whom ever else has had experience ordering from >>> Amazon.COM: are taxes charged on books ordered through Amazon.COM? Any >>> other charges besides shipping & handling? >>> >> >> That might have been me. It was convenient in that I am visiting family >> in the US next week and simply instructed amazon.com to ship my books >> there. Having said that, I did note that amazon.com did list shipping >> prices to Canada (and the free shipping deals don't apply to Canada.) >> >> Books coming here from the US may be intercepted by customs; while they >> will not charge duty they may require the payment of GST on the order. >> (But then if you were ordering from amazon.ca you'd have to pay that >> anyway.) >> > You may also want to compare shipping costs ($4.99/shipment, > $3.99/item for amazon.com vs $3.95/shipment and $1.95/item for > amazon.ca), assuming $Can=$US. > > My brother who used to buy from amazon.com, claimed that he has not > been charged for GST in the past. > He now buys from amazon.ca. > > I think it depends on the particular books you want. > Eg. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" is $16.80 (40% off from > amazon.com) and $18.48 (50% off from amazon.ca). > > No, it depends on whether the item gets stopped for customs etc. They often don't bother on low value items. Books, no matter where you buy them, are subject to GST. If you don't have to pay GST when you import them, consider that a bonus. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 14:41:17 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:41:17 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <717289.90330.qm-0ht2EKPqlcyB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <717289.90330.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47122A8D.1010300@rogers.com> Salman Ahmed wrote: > --- James Knott wrote: > > >> You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage >> charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border >> broker" fee. >> >> > > I hope they provide the option to ship via USPS (US Postal Service). I've had very > good experiences when receiving shipments from the US using USPS. They don't charge > a brokerage fee - at least they haven't in the past. > > In any event, I'll be expensing this book order through my employer so let them > charge me a brokerage fee if they wish! :) > > > I've only seen that fee on UPS shipments and other couriers have only a nominal charge, if any. Also, items sent via mail often get through without charges. However, if you wind up paying duty or GST, the post office will also charge you a "storage" fee. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 15:35:22 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:35:22 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> Message-ID: <4712373A.6050600@rogers.com> Scott Allen wrote: > On Fri Oct 12,2007 10:23:34 AM Neil Watson wrote: >> Yesterday morning my DSL connection (formerly Magma now Primus) began >> disconnecting randomly after only a few minutes of connection >> time. > > I'm having the exact same problem with a Bell Sympatico Business High > Speed Ultra DSL link. It's been occuring since Wed. Oct. 10 at 8:14PM > and still not resolved. Tech support said that they were 90% sure that > it is my router, which is a PC running Coyote Linux. I swapped it with > a different PC running BrazilFW Linux (the successor to Coyote) and > the problem remained. > I occasionally have to deal with Sympatico on behalf of customers through my work. We provide communications equipment that connects to the ADSL modem and there is no computer directly attached to the ADSL line. When calling Sympatico "support", I find they refuse to do anything, if I don't click on the "Start" button. Since there is no computer, there is no start button. They also refuse to escalate to someone who might be able to assist. I have never experienced such a problem that wasn't a Sympatico fault. On another occasion, I tried to help a neighbour connect to Sympatico. Despite 3 different modems, I was unable to get her connected and the 3rd one completely killed her phone service! She then canceled Sympatico and went with Rogers. I then had her up & running within a few minutes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 16:11:50 2007 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:11:50 -0400 Subject: ISP woes In-Reply-To: <20071014104836.GA1985@localhost> References: <20071012142334.GA4882@watson-wilson.ca> <20071013105929.GA1969@localhost> <20071013144608.GA1712@watson-wilson.ca> <20071014104836.GA1985@localhost> Message-ID: <20071014161150.GA24249@watson-wilson.ca> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 06:48:36AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote: >That's the same thing my logs were showing, among other thing. > >However, from around 3:47AM to now (about 3 hours) there has not been >a problem. Hopefully It's been corrected by Bell. My connection began working normally at that time also. -- Neil Watson | Debian Linux System Administrator | Uptime 2 days http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 16:34:29 2007 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:34:29 -0400 Subject: UPS deliveries In-Reply-To: References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FED93.2050805@telly.org> Message-ID: <200710141234.29419.glayng@sympatico.ca> On Friday 12 October 2007 18:01, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/12/07, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > James Knott wrote: > > > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage > > > charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border > > > broker" fee. > > > > Thanks to the competition from FedEx, UPS seems to handle border > > shipments roughly the same way now. I've received some shipments from > > the US that were not accomapnied by the old traditional "we're holding > > your package hostage at the border" scenario. > > That's hopeful, though I won't believe it until I actually see it. I > have had too many cases of paying UPS more "ransom" than my goods were > worth... I haven't accepted shipping through USP for years now. If a U.S. supplier tries using these thieves and they in turn ask me for brokerage fees, I instruct UPS to either waive the brokerage fees or return the product from whence it came. I then contact the supplier and notify them of the issue. -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 19:24:56 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:24:56 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices Message-ID: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why prices for the same products in Tigerdirect.com are still 25% cheaper than tigerdirect.ca? (even before taxes) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 19:49:49 2007 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:49:49 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <471272DD.3060002@rogers.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 19:48:18 2007 From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Frank) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:48:18 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <47127282.4080501@rogers.com> Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why prices for the > same products in Tigerdirect.com are still 25% cheaper than > tigerdirect.ca? (even before taxes) > My boss (I work in non-high-tech retail) has this theory that due to the high turnover of product lines in the PC business that in the short term the prices will be out of whack between the Cdn and US prices, but as new products arrive (most things seem to have 3 month or less retail life before being replaced IMHO) they will be more and more competitively priced in Canada. The problem is that current stock was ordered months ago when the exchange rate was bad. Frank in Mississauga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 20:54:59 2007 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:54:59 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <47128223.1030806@utoronto.ca> Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why prices for the > same products in Tigerdirect.com are still 25% cheaper than > tigerdirect.ca? (even before taxes) > Remember that the Canadian Dollar has been going up mostly (though not entirely) because the US dollar has been going down. Most electronics prices are set based on non-US/CDN currencies so we're unlikely to see a decrease in price any time soon. However, the US is likely to see a gradual increase in the price. Plus none of this will come into play (as another person noted) until the current stocks have been replaced which could take a while. Cheers, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 21:33:05 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:33:05 -0400 Subject: cached - any tools to explain what has been cached on linux Message-ID: <1192397585.5561.16.camel@stan64.site> I set up a machine with postgres, and a 16GB of RAM and its really quick as compared to a similar machine running postgres with similar DB and only 3GB RAM. Does anyone know of any utils or profiling tools that would explain what the cache in linux is doing? TOP: Mem: 16440144k total, 12889668k used, 3550476k free, 69076k buffers Swap: 2104472k total, 10732k used, 2093740k free, 10203404k cached i'd love to know how/what is in that 10 GB of cache i know it stores allocation blocks for programs to use, but its got to be so much more then that. -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 21:31:42 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:31:42 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <471272DD.3060002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <471272DD.3060002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071014173142.73694236@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Stephen wrote: > > > > > > > Ansar Mohammed wrote: >
cite="mid005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822Suvs7B9Oob4Q at public.gmane.orgm" > type="cite"> > > > > > > > >
>

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Can anyone offer a > reasonable explanation as to why prices for > the same products in Tigerdirect.com are still 25% cheaper than > tigerdirect.ca? > (even before taxes)

>
>
> Perhaps they price based on the competition that they face?
>
> Stephen
> > Man, all that for one line? ;) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Leela: That aerosal head spray makes your antenna smell nice... Bender: Thank you. Leela: ...but it's doing long-term damage to the planet. Bender: So? It's not like it's the only one we've got. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 21:40:09 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:40:09 -0400 Subject: cached - any tools to explain what has been cached on linux In-Reply-To: <1192397585.5561.16.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192397585.5561.16.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710141440w2c9170bl19388f189d3614f7@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/07, tleslie wrote: > I set up a machine with postgres, > and a 16GB of RAM and its really quick as compared to > a similar machine running postgres with similar DB > and only 3GB RAM. > > Does anyone know of any utils or profiling tools > that would explain what the cache in linux > is doing? > > TOP: > > Mem: 16440144k total, 12889668k used, 3550476k free, 69076k buffers > Swap: 2104472k total, 10732k used, 2093740k free, 10203404k cached > > i'd love to know how/what is in that 10 GB of cache > > i know it stores allocation blocks for programs to use, but its > got to be so much more then that. I'd almost die for a machine with that much RAM. I'm not sure how to translate this from Assembly programming to Linux Administration, but how much "data area" was allocated at the time you took the snapshot? How many processes were running, and were there any that would be considered "data heavy?" (Eg. media players, office suites, 3d games, etc.) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 22:27:56 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <471272DD.3060002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <471272DD.3060002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Perhaps they price based on the competition that they face? > I visited the tigerdirect store on Woodbine for the first time about a week ago. I wasn't impressed with the prices, my impression is that the stores on College street are more competitive. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 22:39:32 2007 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:39:32 -0400 Subject: cached - any tools to explain what has been cached on linux In-Reply-To: <1192397585.5561.16.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192397585.5561.16.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <47129AA4.1070800@visibleassets.com> tleslie wrote: > I set up a machine with postgres, > and a 16GB of RAM and its really quick as compared to > a similar machine running postgres with similar DB > and only 3GB RAM. > > Does anyone know of any utils or profiling tools > that would explain what the cache in linux > is doing? > > TOP: > > Mem: 16440144k total, 12889668k used, 3550476k free, 69076k buffers > Swap: 2104472k total, 10732k used, 2093740k free, 10203404k cached > > i'd love to know how/what is in that 10 GB of cache > Postgresql relies on your file cache. This is what the effective_cache setting in pg is. > i know it stores allocation blocks for programs to use, but its > got to be so much more then that. > > -tl > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 00:11:53 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Perhaps they price based on the competition that > they face? > > > I visited the tigerdirect store on Woodbine for the > first time about a > week ago. I wasn't impressed with the prices, my > impression is that the > stores on College street are more competitive. For most stuff your right, the stores around College and Spadina are normally cheaper than TigerDirect. There are some exceptions, a few months ago I bought a home theater PC case from the Tiger Direct shop in Etobicoke. Now good looking home theater cases are a bit of a specialty item (i.e. most of the College / Spadina shops DON'T carry them). Of the few shops around that do, at least at the time Tiger Direct was the least expensive option. As with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. SOME good deals to be found at Tiger Direct, BUT.... > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > http://www.syscompdesign.com > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > 647-839-0325 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 01:23:05 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Home theatre screen (Was: Tigerdirect.ca prices) In-Reply-To: <491100.48566.qm-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2726.99.232.71.193.1192411385.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > ...a few months ago I bought a > home theater PC case from the Tiger Direct shop in > Etobicoke. Now good looking home theater cases are a > bit of a specialty item (i.e. most of the College / > Spadina shops DON'T carry them). Of the few shops > around that do, at least at the time Tiger Direct was > the least expensive option. Just in case this is of interest to anyone, we recently had occasion to put together a trade-show booth with a projection screen. The available units were too big and too expensive. I came across an article on the web that recommended using 'blackout curtain' which is available from fabricland here in Toronto. The article had directions on making a home-theatre screen. This material has a shiny side which is quite a good reflector. We had a seamstress sew pockets into the edges and then built a knock-down frame of copper plumbing pipe. The whole thing with other banners etc rolled up and fit nicely into a carrying tube from Curry's Art Store. It looked quite satisfactory in the booth. Total cost, material, sewing, pipe around $70. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 07:22:45 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Inhumanity of MMP In-Reply-To: <470CFC5F.6080508-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <47079483.1010508@chrisaitken.net> <20071009155006.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <470BA721.60103@telly.org> <470BC29C.10400@telly.org> <92ee967a0710091131n65ff373fqe4f6f52c51e9fe6b@mail.gmail.com> <470C1D0E.4070902@utoronto.ca> <470C2733.80702@telly.org> <7ac602420710100711v281b8ad9p8ffbee26b0fa5810@mail.gmail.com> <470CFC5F.6080508@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: | Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:22:55 -0400 | From: Marcus Brubaker | When this happens there is a by-election in that riding. It isn't done often | and is usually only done after a new leader is chosen between elections. It | is almost never done (that I know of) when the leader has lost their seat. In | fact, if an election goes so badly that a leader looses their seat, that | person is not likely to remain the leader for long. | | For instance, it was suggested that a member should step down allow Jack | Layton to run for parliament when he was first selected to lead the federal | NDP but the party decided against it. Read the last two questions here: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/ParlInfo/Compilations/ElectionsAndRidings/TriviaPrimeMinisters.aspx?Language=E#9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 13:02:45 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:02:45 -0400 Subject: question about laptop fan In-Reply-To: <470FE116.4030908-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> Message-ID: <471364F5.2060204@alteeve.com> Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > Hello, > > I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two > weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind > of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a > fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few > attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet > research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing > or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their > fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my > computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? > > Thanks, > Dominic I've replaced four or five fans in various laptops... This usually happens when a cheaper manufacturer (Acer is terrible for this, as are some Dell) use sleeve bearing fans. These tend to "spin out" (they use oil instead of ball-bearings, and a spin-out is a tear in the sleeve and the oil spins out). IBMs though generally are a lot higher quality (save the iSeries) so I am surprised you are having this trouble... By chance, do you (or someone who is near the laptop) smoke? The tar in the smoke can build up over time and is sticky, which can mess up bearing... Regardless, you need to replace the fan. Generally you can order replacement parts from IBM directly and they tend to be somewhat reasonable with their prices. I would expect ~$20? Once you have the fan in hand, replacing it comes down to a question of comfort. How comfortable are you with opening a laptop? IBM is *very* good about providing docs (and sometimes even videos!) on how to replace just about anything in their laptops. You will need to search in the tech docs section, but you should find it there somewhere. If you opt to let someone else do it, and the store on Eglington is too expensive, send me an email. I'd be happy to replace it for you (might charge you a coffee though). :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 15:47:27 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server Message-ID: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Up until recently I could access my web server no problem, now I get 'connection refused'. My site is out of date and quite lame, but it does come in handy for other things once in awhile, like sharing stuff that is too big to be sent via e-mail. Of course, the correct port is forwarded, and as far as I can tell the DNS is correct. I use Zonedit to maintain the resolution, but now I have a static IP so that hasn't been all that necessary to update. One thing I notice is that when I try a ping, it shows the correct IP, but it looks like something in the name Teksavvy uses might be interfering: [joehill at node1:~>$]ping freeyourmachine.org PING freeyourmachine.org (206.248.172.54) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from 206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (206.248.172.54): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=1.15 ms --- freeyourmachine.org ping statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5016ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.599/1.401/3.218/0.973 ms Am I correct in thinking that the problem is the '206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com'? If so, how would I correct that? -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "Tell the Donbot I'm quitting organized crime. From now on I'll stick to the regular kind." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:18:12 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:18:12 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015114727.39f7b902-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: On 10/15/07, JoeHill wrote: > > Up until recently I could access my web server no problem, now I get > 'connection refused'. My site is out of date and quite lame, but it does come in > handy for other things once in awhile, like sharing stuff that is too big to be > sent via e-mail. > > Of course, the correct port is forwarded, and as far as I can tell the DNS is > correct. I use Zonedit to maintain the resolution, but now I have a static IP > so that hasn't been all that necessary to update. > > One thing I notice is that when I try a ping, it shows the correct IP, but it > looks like something in the name Teksavvy uses might be interfering: > > [joehill at node1:~>$]ping freeyourmachine.org > PING freeyourmachine.org (206.248.172.54) 56(84) bytes of data. > 64 bytes from 206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (206.248.172.54): icmp_seq=1 > ttl=64 time=1.15 ms > > --- freeyourmachine.org ping statistics --- > 6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5016ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.599/1.401/3.218/0.973 ms > > Am I correct in thinking that the problem is the > '206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com'? If so, how would I correct that? The problem is not in that. nmap gives this: 135/tcp filtered msrpc 136/tcp filtered profile 137/tcp filtered netbios-ns 138/tcp filtered netbios-dgm 139/tcp filtered netbios-ssn 445/tcp filtered microsoft-ds 1025/tcp filtered NFS-or-IIS 5000/tcp filtered UPnP Looks like that http is not running, Perhaps it was rebooted for some reason and you have no scripts in /etc/init.d to restart services like httpd or sshd ? zb > > -- > JoeHill > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Bender: "Tell the Donbot I'm quitting organized crime. From now on I'll stick > to the regular kind." > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:36:03 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:36:03 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > On 10/15/07, JoeHill wrote: > > > > Up until recently I could access my web server no problem, now I get > > 'connection refused'. My site is out of date and quite lame, but it does > > come in handy for other things once in awhile, like sharing stuff that is > > too big to be sent via e-mail. > > > > Of course, the correct port is forwarded, and as far as I can tell the DNS > > is correct. I use Zonedit to maintain the resolution, but now I have a > > static IP so that hasn't been all that necessary to update. > > > > One thing I notice is that when I try a ping, it shows the correct IP, but > > it looks like something in the name Teksavvy uses might be interfering: > > > > [joehill at node1:~>$]ping freeyourmachine.org > > PING freeyourmachine.org (206.248.172.54) 56(84) bytes of data. > > 64 bytes from 206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (206.248.172.54): icmp_seq=1 > > ttl=64 time=1.15 ms > > > > --- freeyourmachine.org ping statistics --- > > 6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5016ms > > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.599/1.401/3.218/0.973 ms > > > > Am I correct in thinking that the problem is the > > '206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com'? If so, how would I correct that? > > The problem is not in that. > > nmap gives this: > > 135/tcp filtered msrpc > 136/tcp filtered profile > 137/tcp filtered netbios-ns > 138/tcp filtered netbios-dgm > 139/tcp filtered netbios-ssn > 445/tcp filtered microsoft-ds > 1025/tcp filtered NFS-or-IIS > 5000/tcp filtered UPnP > > Looks like that http is not running, > > Perhaps it was rebooted for some reason and you have no scripts in > /etc/init.d to restart services like httpd or sshd ? That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as well, by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and begun blocking the lower ports. Would nmap pick that up? -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Professor: Being captain is about intuition and heart. A good captain can't have either one. That's why cold, logical Bender is perfect for the job. Bender: Well, I do think of human life as expendable. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:43:09 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:43:09 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015123603.75279d75-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: On 10/15/07, JoeHill wrote: > That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my > browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as well, > by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and begun > blocking the lower ports. Good question. Would nmap pick that up? I am not sure. zb. > > -- > JoeHill > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Professor: Being captain is about intuition and heart. A good > captain can't have either one. That's why cold, logical Bender > is perfect for the job. > Bender: Well, I do think of human life as expendable. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:43:03 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:43:03 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015123603.75279d75-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <47139897.9060806@alteeve.com> JoeHill wrote: > That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my > browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as well, > by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and begun > blocking the lower ports. Would nmap pick that up? To test that, change your http server to a different port (ie: 88 or 8080) and try 'freeyourmachine.org:88' and see if you get anything. Failing that, I'd look into something blocking port 80. "Low" ports are anything under 1024, generally. So I doubt it's that general a block because if it was, 143 et. al. would not work. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:48:08 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:48:08 -0400 Subject: More on Monsoon Multimedia Message-ID: <20071015124808.6ffff7ca@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Saw this on Linux.com: Daniel B. Ravicher, legal director of the Software Freedom Law Center: "I can confirm that we are discussing settlement," Ravicher says, "but -- contrary to what many in the press seem to believe -- no agreement has been reached. Simply coming into compliance now is not sufficient to settle the matter, because that would mean anyone can violate the license until caught, because the only punishment would be to come into compliance." Them's fightin' words ;) Link: http://www.linux.com/feature/119439 -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: Stay away from our women. You got metal fever, baby, metal fever! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 16:52:49 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:52:49 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015123603.75279d75-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > > That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my > browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as well, > by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and begun > blocking the lower ports. Would nmap pick that up? > > If you can access the server from another computer on your local network, but not from the internet, then something is blocking it. You can try www.grc.com to see what ports are open to the rest of the world. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 17:32:58 2007 From: jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org (jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:32:58 -0400 Subject: OT: net-snmp help Message-ID: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF281305788843@MX01.fxdd.com> Hi, IIRC without DISMAN no traps will be sent unless the you poll the client. agentSecName internal rouser internal Disk / 45% monitor -o dskPath -o dskErrorMsg "dskTable" dskErrorFlag != 0 and for some reason it won't send traps any idea why? 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URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 17:05:21 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:05:21 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <47139897.9060806-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139897.9060806@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20071015130521.79a12edf@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Madison Kelly wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my > > browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as > > well, by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and > > begun blocking the lower ports. Would nmap pick that up? > > To test that, change your http server to a different port (ie: 88 or > 8080) and try 'freeyourmachine.org:88' and see if you get anything. > Failing that, I'd look into something blocking port 80. > > "Low" ports are anything under 1024, generally. So I doubt it's that > general a block because if it was, 143 et. al. would not work. Good point. I did try 8080 and got the same error (I did remember to update the port forward on the router and restart Apache service). Now, in trying this, I am using an 'anonymiser' to test, as I cannot simply point my browser to freeyourmachine.org. Apparently I cannot surf to my site from the same IP it's located on. Thanks for the tips. What else could possibly be blocking this? -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:36:57 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:36:57 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Ian Petersen wrote: > For whatever it's worth, my httpd is still responding to remote > requests on port 80 and I'm with Teksavvy as well. I checked by > ssh'ing to a friend's machine (he's also on Teksavvy--dunno if that > makes a difference) and used wget to retrieve a page from my site. > Worked fine. Amazingly, so is mine now. Incredible, all I had to do was change the port forward on the router from UDP to TCP. Man I am such an idiot sometimes. Very sorry for the wasted time, but thanks to everyone who helped eliminate all of the possible problems that did not relate to my own stupidity... :-\ -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Listen, Bender, where's your bathroom?" -Fry "Bath what?" -Bender "Bathroom." -Fry "What room?" -Bender "Bathroom!" -Fry "What what?" Bender "Ah, nevermind." -Fry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:13:30 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:13:30 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <47139AE1.2070803-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> James Knott wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > > > That's weird, because I can access everything locally, ie. if I point my > > browser at 192.168.0.12 I get the web page, and I can connect over ssh as > > well, by hostname or IP. I hope Teksavvy has not changed their policy and > > begun blocking the lower ports. Would nmap pick that up? > > > > > If you can access the server from another computer on your local > network, but not from the internet, then something is blocking it. You > can try www.grc.com to see what ports are open to the rest of the world. Dammit, grc.com shows port 80 as 'closed', though it is now once again open on my router and apache is restarted to use port 80. I can't believe that Teksavvy would all of a sudden decide to block 80, they were pretty clear on that issue when I signed up. I guess I'll have to ask them. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "Good lord. What is this?" -Fry "It's the decaying ruins of old New York. Welcome home, pal!" -Bender -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:20:31 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:20:31 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015141330.7fc7962c-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> For whatever it's worth, my httpd is still responding to remote requests on port 80 and I'm with Teksavvy as well. I checked by ssh'ing to a friend's machine (he's also on Teksavvy--dunno if that makes a difference) and used wget to retrieve a page from my site. Worked fine. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:36:28 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:36:28 -0700 Subject: More on Monsoon Multimedia In-Reply-To: <20071015124808.6ffff7ca-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015124808.6ffff7ca@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710151136k45855076kbe0be9d36024131@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like the way it should be to me. I don't know if their rep's attitude was representative of the entire company, but the overall impression he gave me was that the company was willing to attack legitimate investigation of their product as opposed to dealing with them in an amicable manner to address the issues presented. When presented with an issue, some companies negotiate, some defend, and some attack... and in the early stages monsoon seemed to be doing a little of both attack/defend which doesn't do much for their reputation with me. On 10/15/07, JoeHill wrote: > > Saw this on Linux.com: > > Daniel B. Ravicher, legal director of the Software Freedom Law Center: > > "I can confirm that we are discussing settlement," Ravicher says, "but -- > contrary to what many in the press seem to believe -- no agreement has been > reached. Simply coming into compliance now is not sufficient to settle the > matter, because that would mean anyone can violate the license until caught, > because the only punishment would be to come into compliance." > > Them's fightin' words ;) > > Link: > > http://www.linux.com/feature/119439 > > -- > JoeHill > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Bender: Stay away from our women. You got metal fever, baby, metal fever! > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:25:01 2007 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:25:01 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <20071014173142.73694236-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <005401c80e97$e88e0050$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <471272DD.3060002@rogers.com> <20071014173142.73694236@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <200710151425.01891.mervc@eol.ca> On Sunday 14 October 2007 17:31, JoeHill wrote: > > > > Perhaps they price based on the competition that they face?
> >
> > Stephen
> > > > > > Man, all that for one line? ;) Ain't html wonderful for mail... -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.7 KMail 1.9.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 23:13:31 2007 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:13:31 -0400 Subject: [linux.com] Ontario LinuxFest makes an auspicious debut Message-ID: <20071015231331.GE1281@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> OLF07 was great, and if you missed this year, don't miss the next one ! you can read this fine article about it; http://www.linux.com/feature/119847 or go directly to the site; http://www.onlinux.ca/ djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 15:03:11 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:03:11 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups Message-ID: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> I have a printer attached to PC1. I print to that printer remotely from PC2. I want to setup PC3 to print to that remote printer as well. Nothing is working. I am trying to copy the settings I used (on PC2) to set up remote printing on PC3. I can only see so many settings in the cups 'printer' on PC1 and PC2 without destroying those 'printers'. Is there a way to see all the settings I entered when I (successfully) created the 'printers' on PC1 and PC2? All three PCs are on te Internet and can ping one another. Just to reiterate, I can print and I can print remotely - I just can't repeat the steps (to set up a PC to print remotely). PC1, PC2 ad PC3 are not the real names of the computers - I'm just trying to make it easy to track things... Any ideas? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 08:38:37 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:38:37 +0000 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <4713812F.1040507-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> Are you printing to an ip address or a hostname? Is the hostname available to PC3... what happens if you go http://hostname:631 from PC3? On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a printer attached to PC1. > > I print to that printer remotely from PC2. > > I want to setup PC3 to print to that remote printer as well. Nothing is > working. I am trying to copy the settings I used (on PC2) to set up > remote printing on PC3. I can only see so many settings in the cups > 'printer' on PC1 and PC2 without destroying those 'printers'. Is there a > way to see all the settings I entered when I (successfully) created the > 'printers' on PC1 and PC2? > > All three PCs are on te Internet and can ping one another. Just to > reiterate, I can print and I can print remotely - I just can't repeat > the steps (to set up a PC to print remotely). > > PC1, PC2 ad PC3 are not the real names of the computers - I'm just > trying to make it easy to track things... > > Any ideas? > > Chris > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 02:26:28 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:26:28 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> Tyler Aviss wrote: > Are you printing to an ip address or a hostname? > I've tried both. > Is the hostname available to PC3... Yes. > what happens if you go > http://hostname:631 from PC3? > In a browser or as the uri? As the uri it does nothing. Typing it in the url field in Mozilla it brings up the cups interface. > On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I have a printer attached to PC1. >> >> I print to that printer remotely from PC2. >> >> I want to setup PC3 to print to that remote printer as well. Nothing is >> working. I am trying to copy the settings I used (on PC2) to set up >> remote printing on PC3. I can only see so many settings in the cups >> 'printer' on PC1 and PC2 without destroying those 'printers'. Is there a >> way to see all the settings I entered when I (successfully) created the >> 'printers' on PC1 and PC2? >> >> All three PCs are on te Internet and can ping one another. Just to >> reiterate, I can print and I can print remotely - I just can't repeat >> the steps (to set up a PC to print remotely). >> >> PC1, PC2 ad PC3 are not the real names of the computers - I'm just >> trying to make it easy to track things... >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Chris >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 14:33:57 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:33:57 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <47142154.9090409-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > Tyler Aviss wrote: > > Are you printing to an ip address or a hostname? > > > I've tried both. > > Is the hostname available to PC3... > Yes. > > what happens if you go > > http://hostname:631 from PC3? > > > In a browser or as the uri? As the uri it does nothing. Typing it in the > url field in Mozilla it brings up the cups interface. And is nmbd running on the PC with the printer? I needed that in my setup. Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 02:43:38 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:43:38 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4714255A.6050605@chrisaitken.net> Alex Beamish wrote: > On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Tyler Aviss wrote: >> >>> Are you printing to an ip address or a hostname? >>> >>> >> I've tried both. >> >>> Is the hostname available to PC3... >>> >> Yes. >> >>> what happens if you go >>> http://hostname:631 from PC3? >>> >>> >> In a browser or as the uri? As the uri it does nothing. Typing it in the >> url field in Mozilla it brings up the cups interface. >> > > And is nmbd running on the PC with the printer? I needed that in my setup. > How do I check that? Chris > Alex > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 15:25:29 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:25:29 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <4714255A.6050605-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> <4714255A.6050605@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > > > > And is nmbd running on the PC with the printer? I needed that in my setup. > > > How do I check that? If you visit your local Samba installation at http://localhost:901/ and go to the Status page, you should see three services listed, smbd, nmbd and winbindd. smbd provies file and printer sharing to computers on my LAN, nmbd is the NetBIOS name server. I have both running, and printing to the printer on my Linux box from PCs (Win98 and WinXP) and Macs just works. Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 02:59:00 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:59:00 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <47142154.9090409-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <471428F4.9000603@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Are you printing to an ip address or a hostname? Two things are gnawing at me: 1. The 'printer' (I put single quotes to distinguish it from the physical printing device) at PC2 that successfully prints to the remote printer (PC1) is identified in cups as "HP PSC 1600 Foomatic/hpijs (recommended) on 192.168.0.103". I don't undestand what that IP address /is/ . Is it the IP address assigned by the ISP's cable modem (even though it appears in /sbin/ifconfig even when the cat5 cable (from cable modem) is unplugged)? Is it a NAT address assigned by the router (because I know it's not the router's "real" address)? And why can't I get that "on 192.168.0.103" on any subsequent 'printer' I create? 2. The 'printer' at PC2 that successfully prints to the remote printer (at PC1) seems to not care what it's uri is - I know this because last night I accidentally altered it's uri (which ti didn't seem to have to begin with) and it still printed successfully to the remote printer. Why does the working 'printer' not care what it's own uri is? I, hoping that the answers to these two questions hold clues as to what I should try next. My strategy here is to create a second working 'printer' (at PC2) to print remotely (to printer at PC1). I figure that if I can do this successfully then I can recreate that success on PC3. I am doing this for two reasons: 1. I know remote printing is working from the existing 'printer' on PC2, and 2. PC3 is on another floor so it's not convenient going up and down stairs to see that the printer still isn't printing. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 15:57:09 2007 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:57:09 -0400 Subject: UPS deliveries In-Reply-To: <200710141234.29419.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <178541.90750.qm@web51804.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <470FED93.2050805@telly.org> <200710141234.29419.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4714DF55.3000605@ve3syb.ca> Gary Layng wrote: > I haven't accepted shipping through USP for years now. If a U.S. supplier > tries using these thieves and they in turn ask me for brokerage fees, I > instruct UPS to either waive the brokerage fees or return the product from > whence it came. I then contact the supplier and notify them of the issue. I stopped using UPS when I was hit with a bill of $45 for brokerage and customs clearance fees. I now tell all US suppliers up front that items are NOT to be shipped via UPS. One supplier slipped up and shipped via UPS anyway. I told UPS to hold off on delivering the item. I contacted the supplier who talked to UPS. The item was returned to the supplier who then mailed it out USPS as I had first instructed them. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 04:44:25 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:44:25 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> <4714255A.6050605@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <471441A9.5080501@chrisaitken.net> Alex Beamish wrote: > On 10/15/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > >>> And is nmbd running on the PC with the printer? I needed that in my setup. >>> >>> >> How do I check that? >> > > If you visit your local Samba installation at > > http://localhost:901/ > > and go to the Status page, you should see three services listed, smbd, > nmbd and winbindd. smbd provies file and printer sharing to computers > on my LAN, nmbd is the NetBIOS name server. I have both running, and > printing to the printer on my Linux box from PCs (Win98 and WinXP) and > Macs just works. > Sorry, I was using 'PC' to mean 'computer'. I don't use any Windows computers. They are all linux. I'm printing over the network okay - it's just that I can't make /another/ 'printer' (configuration). So, I think it's syntax/configuration (uri name et al). I doubt I am missing any services/daemons as I am printing okay - it's just that I can't configure another 'printer'. Thanks. Chris > Alex > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 19:29:42 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:29:42 -0700 Subject: SyncML apps for compatible phones Message-ID: <3a97ef0710161229j50e1f15ao7c17fd8e944006b4@mail.gmail.com> I've got a new Samsung D900i which supposedly supports the SyncML standard for synchronization. What I'd like to do is sync the address book and contacts via bluetooth between my PC and phone. I can connect to the phone via bluetooth for file transfers, and I've tried a few "syncml" apps, but I haven't yet found something that will actually connect to the phone via bluetooth and perform a contacts sync. Any ideas? Currently using Debian/linux-2.6.22/KDE 3.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 09:07:37 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:07:37 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <471428F4.9000603-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> <471428F4.9000603@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47147F59.2010702@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > My strategy here is to create a second working 'printer' (at PC2) to > print remotely (to printer at PC1). I figure that if I can do this > successfully then I can recreate that success on PC3. I am doing this > for two reasons: 1. I know remote printing is working from the > existing 'printer' on PC2, and 2. PC3 is on another floor so it's not > convenient going up and down stairs to see that the printer still > isn't printing. Is the following a valid URI? lpd://p733/PSC_1600_series I know p733 is the hostname of computer1 because I can do a successful 'ping p733'. I assume that the 'queue' (on computer1) is PSC_1600_series because of the following: [root at p733 chris]# lpq -PPSC_1600_series PSC_1600_series is ready no entries However, when I create a 'printer' (on computer2) to print to that printer I get "Network host 'p733' is busy, down or unreachable; will retry in 30 seconds..." when trying to do a Print Test Page. Do I have to configure permissions or something in /etc/cups/cupsd.conf? Of course that still begs the question, Why can I print successfully from the existing 'printer' (from computer2 to computer1) but can't create /another/ 'printer' to do the same thing? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 21:38:54 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:38:54 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <491100.48566.qm-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c401c8103c$f418fe60$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Update: As of today a Seagate 500gb drive costs 109.99$ on tigerdirect.com and 109.97$ on tigerdirect.ca yessssssssssssssssssssssss > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Colin > McGregor > Sent: October 14, 2007 8:12 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices > > --- phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > Perhaps they price based on the competition that > > they face? > > > > > I visited the tigerdirect store on Woodbine for the > > first time about a > > week ago. I wasn't impressed with the prices, my > > impression is that the > > stores on College street are more competitive. > > For most stuff your right, the stores around College > and Spadina are normally cheaper than TigerDirect. > > There are some exceptions, a few months ago I bought a > home theater PC case from the Tiger Direct shop in > Etobicoke. Now good looking home theater cases are a > bit of a specialty item (i.e. most of the College / > Spadina shops DON'T carry them). Of the few shops > around that do, at least at the time Tiger Direct was > the least expensive option. > > As with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. SOME > good deals to be found at Tiger Direct, BUT.... > > > -- > > Peter Hiscocks > > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > > http://www.syscompdesign.com > > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > > 647-839-0325 > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 22:22:14 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:22:14 -0400 Subject: Linux on a stick Message-ID: <47153996.80209@rogers.com> http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-usb-bar -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 00:14:18 2007 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:14:18 +1000 Subject: Linux on a stick In-Reply-To: <47153996.80209-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <47153996.80209@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1192580058.6178.15.camel@moonglow.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 18:22 -0400, James Knott wrote: > http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-usb-bar This summer I found myself using a USB key to bootstrap a new laptop intended to run Gentoo. It worked surprisingly well. The end result was using something called extlinux as a bootloader for ext2 filesystems, and a Gentoo LiveCD image (which doubles as their install media). http://research.operationaldynamics.com/blogs/andrew/software/gentoo-linux/usb-bootstrap.html The part I didn't blog about was that subsequent to this, on a whim, I tried doing the installation (from a full LiveCD) by just copying the whole image verbatim, wondering if it would work. In other words, 1. cp -a /mnt/cdrom /mnt/target 2. edit /mnt/target/etc/fstab 3. reboot this took 6 1/2 minutes of I/O, and than TA-DA, system installed. And that's it! Admittedly I knew what I was doing, but so much for Gentoo being hard to install. [I have subsequently gathered chatting with some of the Canonical guys that this technique is what they do for an initial Ubuntu installation] AfC Sydney -- Andrew Frederick Cowie We are an operations engineering consultancy focusing on strategy, organizational architecture, systems review, and change management procedures: enabling successful use of open source in mission critical enterprises, worldwide. http://www.operationaldynamics.com/ Sydney New York Toronto London -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 12:36:48 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:36:48 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <47147F59.2010702-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> <471428F4.9000603@chrisaitken.net> <47147F59.2010702@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4714B060.3010401@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > >> My strategy here is to create a second working 'printer' (at PC2) to >> print remotely (to printer at PC1). I figure that if I can do this >> successfully then I can recreate that success on PC3. I am doing this >> for two reasons: 1. I know remote printing is working from the >> existing 'printer' on PC2, and 2. PC3 is on another floor so it's not >> convenient going up and down stairs to see that the printer still >> isn't printing. I'm okay now. I kept trying URIs until I got one to work. The URI that finally worked was http://p733:631/printers/PSC_1600_series That got me printing over the network from computer2 to computer1 (where the printer is connected). I changed that to http://192.168.0.2:631/printers/PSC_1600_series to print over the network from computer3 to computer1 as, I guess, there is no DNS between those two computers. Well, I'm happily printing all over the house now, and I learned a little about cups printer paths. I was trying to mix lpd paths into cups which is fine if you have symlinks between the two systems (I used to have these but do not now). I know soon I'll have to re-learn how to do the symlinks so that cups can print from lpd commands. xpdf (for example) uses the lpd command. I won't be able to print .pdf files until I set up the symlinks. Thanks Tyler and Alex. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 02:12:57 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:12:57 -0400 Subject: rsync performance Message-ID: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Hello all, Has anyone experience with rsyncing a large file (greater than 2GB) across a dsl connection? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 02:21:07 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:21:07 -0400 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327@mail.gmail.com> On 10/16/07, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Has anyone experience with rsyncing a large file (greater than 2GB) across a > dsl connection? Why do you ask? My private backup solution uses rsync internally, and some of my files are greater than 2GB. I'm backing up across an 802.11b network, not a DSL connection, but I'm sure the performance is similar (11Mb/s compared to 5Mb/s). Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 02:40:04 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:40:04 -0400 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> I need to rsync 2 files (3GB and 4GB) from my home to another location over DSL. But I need it to be reliable. As I understand it, if portions of the file are changed, but not the entire file, rsync should only update changed portions? What's the actual efficiency of this process? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Petersen > Sent: October 16, 2007 10:21 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: rsync performance > > On 10/16/07, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > Has anyone experience with rsyncing a large file (greater than 2GB) > across a > > dsl connection? > > Why do you ask? My private backup solution uses rsync internally, and > some of my files are greater than 2GB. I'm backing up across an > 802.11b network, not a DSL connection, but I'm sure the performance is > similar (11Mb/s compared to 5Mb/s). > > Ian > > -- > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 03:25:18 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:25:18 -0400 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327@mail.gmail.com> <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710162025t5daf4c88m68e3d333831a43ca@mail.gmail.com> On 10/16/07, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > As I understand it, if portions of the file > are changed, but not the entire file, rsync should only update changed > portions? Yes, that's true. rsync uses cryptographically-strong checksums to check that local and remote files are the same. > What's the actual efficiency of this process? I think it's pretty close to optimal. My memory of the details is a little fuzzy, but the basic principal is that the client and server process each compute "rolling checksums" of the file, sending the sums back and forth. Once a checksum is found not to match, the actual data is sent. I think there's some provision for each side to "catch-up" to the other so that, for example, inserting into or deleting from the middle of the file is still efficient. There's also some communication of a checksum of the whole file so that, in the worst case, rsync degenerates to a simple file transfer plus a bunch of checksums. Transformations like encryption and compression both break rsync in general. What I mean is that it's more efficient to rsync a large uncompressed text file than it is to rsync the same file after compression (assuming some change in the file) because compression (and encryption) tends to create changes throughout the file even if the original file only changed a little bit. The backup that I mentioned earlier that takes place over an 802.11b network consists of a whole bunch of files that add up to about 9.5 GB. The daily backup takes about 90 seconds, but there's only about 1 MB worth of changes to the data on a day-to-day basis. It took almost 2 hours to create the initial image of 2.5 GB, and about 5 hours to bring it up to 9.5 GB two days later when I changed what was being backed up. Ian PS I just realized that, if you're generally sending data UP a dsl connection, you're probably limited to something like 800 kb/s, not 5 Mb/s, so you're looking at a transfer time approximately 10 times as long as I'm experiencing over 802.11b. -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 06:11:11 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <4710EF2F.6010208-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: | From: Meng Cheah | Has anyone any recommendations or should I stick with the Speedtouch 546? This seems very cheap. I bought one, tested it lightly, and left it on my shelf as a spare. http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=012772&cid=NT.541 I'd be willing to loan it to you for a week or so. That way we'd both find out if it is a reasonable device. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 08:26:00 2007 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:26:00 +1000 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327@mail.gmail.com> <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <1192609560.5880.13.camel@moonglow.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 22:40 -0400, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > What's the actual efficiency of this process? You'd do best to read up on rsync itself and then experiment with its performance in your scenario, but to first order approximations you'll have a hard time doing better provided you invoke it appropriately. See http://rsync.samba.org/documentation.html and in particular the original technical reports by Tridge et al describing the algorithm. AfC Sydney -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 09:52:15 2007 From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:52:15 -0400 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <40EAA9DE9015244685020EE950693D0219EA4E2B73@VMBX102.ihostexchange.net> 2GB+/- files are not uncommon for me. I've clients backing up from both Windows and Linux boxes with files in that size via DSL. The only issue I've encountered is offlining (or making an offline copy prior to backup and use that instead) for the duration of the backup as it sometimes takes over a day to fully sync up. That said, I've currently 56 clients backing up over that same DSL connection daily (hence a full change to the multiple gb file takes a while to get to the server). Somebody already commented on the compression/encryption issue about the entire file changing internally even though the source only changed slightly. That's also been my experience. Now if only someone could do a compression on the server side, leaving the sources uncompressed and the ability to rsync into that...that would be useful... D. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ansar > Mohammed > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:13 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: rsync performance > > Hello all, > Has anyone experience with rsyncing a large file (greater than 2GB) > across a > dsl connection? > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 14:02:18 2007 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:02:18 -0400 Subject: Linux on a stick In-Reply-To: <1192580058.6178.15.camel-OsHlLiK0t3YlsMdPJzOpMKof79hy4C9OJlkDCAVGkpAO4ta96kjR9g@public.gmane.org> References: <47153996.80209@rogers.com> <1192580058.6178.15.camel@moonglow.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10710170702k9075ccas51a7906e22d6878c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/16/07, Andrew Cowie wrote: > On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 18:22 -0400, James Knott wrote: > > http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-usb-bar > > This summer I found myself using a USB key to bootstrap a new laptop > intended to run Gentoo. It worked surprisingly well. The end result was > using something called extlinux as a bootloader for ext2 filesystems, > and a Gentoo LiveCD image (which doubles as their install media). > http://research.operationaldynamics.com/blogs/andrew/software/gentoo-linux/usb-bootstrap.html > This past weekend I did a usb-boot install of Debian on a Thinkpad X31... It was a bit of a challenge to correctly setup the usb-stick, but I finally got it to work... Thanks for the heads-up about extlinux/syslinux! The docs on the website describe a much more generic setup that I can use to boot and install other *.iso images in the future... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 14:59:09 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:59:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Meng Cheah > > | Has anyone any recommendations or should I stick with the Speedtouch 546? > > This seems very cheap. I bought one, tested it lightly, and left it > on my shelf as a spare. > > http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=012772&cid=NT.541 > > I'd be willing to loan it to you for a week or so. That way we'd both > find out if it is a reasonable device. > Thanks for the offer, Hugh. I bought one last week, plugged it in and it connected. However, I could not login to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup (or even http://gateway.2wire.net) to configure the gateway, as per the installation guide. I exchanged the gateway, still no luck. Did you manage to connect to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup? I'm with Teksavvy with a static IP and a subnet. If I can't configure the gateway, then the subnet will not be accessible as well as the wireless. I'm going to keep this as a "emergency spare" too :-) A Teksavvy support rep informed me that Bell has their own firmware on the gateway so it won't work. My first purchase had an AT&T sticker on it. The one I exchanged had no sticker. That may explain why I can't login to configure the gateway. If you can configure your gateway, your assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks again. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 15:03:21 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:03:21 -0400 Subject: The Bug: Open Source Hardware Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710170803r7d81d8c5u303a086a9a5d934b@mail.gmail.com> I came across a Wired article[1] today on some up-and-coming Open Source Hardware. After browsing around the Bug Labs site[2], I'd say the concept has some merit, though I'm not sure it'll be a feasible platform for startups/companies to create/market products based on it. Fully modular, open schematics, and running on Open Source Software, The Bug certainly appeals to the geek in me. Their online store is to open by the end of 2007, according to the site. It'll be interesting to see what the pricing situation looks like. The base units' technical specs are listed on the Products page[3]. Specs for the pluggable modules don't look to be available yet. - Scott. [1] http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2007/10/open-source-har.html [2] http://www.buglabs.net/ [3] http://www.buglabs.net/products -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 15:30:27 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:30:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Is the Hardware list down? Message-ID: <47162A93.5020206@pppoe.ca> Hi I sent this on the 13th and received the message below 72 hours later. Is the hw list down or is the problem at my end? Thanks Meng The following message to was undeliverable. The reason for the problem: 5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) '[Errno 61] Connection refused' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Final-Recipient: rfc822;hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure) Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) '[Errno 61] Connection refused' (delivery attempts: 0) Reporting-MTA: dns; ironport2.teksavvy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway From: Meng Cheah Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:11:20 -0400 To: hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 15:44:13 2007 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:44:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Is the Hardware list down? In-Reply-To: <47162A93.5020206-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <47162A93.5020206@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <002701c810d4$925e3da0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Well according to the archives, the last email sent on the HW list was in 2006. So my guess is yes, its dead. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Meng Cheah > Sent: October 17, 2007 11:30 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Is the Hardware list down? > > Hi > > I sent this on the 13th and received the message below 72 hours later. > Is the hw list down or is the problem at my end? > > Thanks > > Meng > > > > The following message to was undeliverable. > The reason for the problem: > 5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) '[Errno 61] Connection refused' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Final-Recipient: rfc822;hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure) > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) '[Errno > 61] Connection refused' (delivery attempts: 0) > Reporting-MTA: dns; ironport2.teksavvy.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway > From: > Meng Cheah > Date: > Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:11:20 -0400 > > To: > hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 15:45:54 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:45:54 -0400 Subject: Corrupt LVM? Message-ID: <47162E32.4070701@telly.org> A friend had a power outage on his Ubuntu system and is now finding the LVM volumes unmountable. If there is anyone here who can help with the recovery, please email him at anton-H7gDyczHuWxBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org as his regular email isn't working and he doen't this moment have access to TLUG list mail. Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 16:39:59 2007 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:39:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <4716233D.4020605-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880710170939o3842ca84l4c1460b334570f0c@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I'm using 2wire and and have had no problems with it. It really depends on your luck, some people have problems as soon as they get it and they usually can return it within the 7 day grace period. I usually get 350-450 per second on torrents.. :) There was a report on it with alot of users commenting on the device however at this moment I can't find it. There's been some comments on -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 16:41:13 2007 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:41:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <4716233D.4020605-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, The problem you may be experiencing is because someone set it up as a BRIDGED device so it doesnt act wirelessly but acts as a normal DSL modem where your router can log in. A simple resolution to this is if you reset the modem. Usually a simple reset fixes everything. (Thats what I did) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 16:57:32 2007 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:57:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880710170957i585d826fo8fab24c841c425f3@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Sorry for the duplicate message let me expand on what may be the problem. The dsl device can act as a router and log itself onto the provider. You can also use it as a DUMB modem where you point the dsl modem to your router and use your router to log in to the provider. When your dsl modem is in the dumb modem state you can not log into the web interface of the dsl modem. In order to get back onto the web interface you require a reset of the modem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 19:06:54 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:06:54 -0400 Subject: question about laptop fan In-Reply-To: <470FE116.4030908-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <470FE116.4030908@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20071017190654.GT4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 05:03:18PM -0400, Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > I have an IBM T42p that I've owned for four years. For the last two > weeks, I've been hearing extra noise periodically from the fan, a kind > of fluttering sound. Yesterday when I went to turn on my laptop, I got a > fan error, and the computer refused to boot. Fortunately after a few > attempts the computer eventually started. Based on some Internet > research, it seems likely that my fan needs either cleaning or servicing > or replacement. Has anyone out there had similar difficulties with their > fan? Would cleaning a fan be easy for a novice? Or should I just take my > computer to a professional and forget about tinkering with it myself? Well the bearings (if that is what they even are) on my wifes 3 year old compaq died on one of the two fans by the cpu. I disconnected the power, and it runs the other one just fine. So far so good. No idea where to get a new fan given they appear to be custom made for the job (the two fans are not even identical, although similar). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 19:28:21 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:28:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Is the Hardware list down? In-Reply-To: <002701c810d4$925e3da0$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <47162A93.5020206@pppoe.ca> <002701c810d4$925e3da0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <47166255.10208@pppoe.ca> Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Well according to the archives, the last email sent on the HW list was in > 2006. > > So my guess is yes, its dead. > I guess so too. Oh well, it wasn't that widely used. At least now, I don't have to preface my posts with an apology/explanation for cross-posting :-) Thanks for checking the archives. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 19:32:54 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:32:54 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880710170939o3842ca84l4c1460b334570f0c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170939o3842ca84l4c1460b334570f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47166366.5020008@pppoe.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm using 2wire and and have had no problems with it. It really > depends on your luck, some people have problems as soon as they get it > and they usually can return it within the 7 day grace period. I > usually get 350-450 per second on torrents.. :) > Just to confirm, are you using the refurbished 2700 from Computers Canada or are you on Bell Sympatico and using the 2701 supplied by them? > There was a report on it with alot of users commenting on the > device however at this moment I can't find it. > > There's been some comments on > ??? Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 19:40:23 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:40:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47166527.8070408@pppoe.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi All, > > The problem you may be experiencing is because someone set it up as a > BRIDGED device so it doesnt act wirelessly but acts as a normal DSL > modem where your router can log in. A simple resolution to this is if > you reset the modem. Usually a simple reset fixes everything. > > (Thats what I did) > That's what I did on the 2 units but no luck. Thanks for the info; so some units do work. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 20:02:11 2007 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:02:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <47166366.5020008-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170939o3842ca84l4c1460b334570f0c@mail.gmail.com> <47166366.5020008@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880710171302s15606856q315378a94a5bd4aa@mail.gmail.com> Hi I'm using the one I bought from Canada Computers for 20.00 :) On 10/17/07, Meng Cheah wrote: > Dave Germiquet wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I'm using 2wire and and have had no problems with it. It really > > depends on your luck, some people have problems as soon as they get it > > and they usually can return it within the 7 day grace period. I > > usually get 350-450 per second on torrents.. :) > > > Just to confirm, are you using the refurbished 2700 from Computers > Canada or are you on Bell Sympatico and using the 2701 supplied by them? > > There was a report on it with alot of users commenting on the > > device however at this moment I can't find it. > > > > There's been some comments on > > > ??? > > Regards > > Meng > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 20:03:15 2007 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:03:15 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <47166527.8070408-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a@mail.gmail.com> <47166527.8070408@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880710171303y30c85856x75381c59a723be8@mail.gmail.com> Are you putting this on your net work or are you putting it directly to a workstation? If your putting it on a network try just directly plugging it into the computer. On 10/17/07, Meng Cheah wrote: > Dave Germiquet wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > The problem you may be experiencing is because someone set it up as a > > BRIDGED device so it doesnt act wirelessly but acts as a normal DSL > > modem where your router can log in. A simple resolution to this is if > > you reset the modem. Usually a simple reset fixes everything. > > > > (Thats what I did) > > > That's what I did on the 2 units but no luck. > > Thanks for the info; so some units do work. > > Meng > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 21:39:32 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:39:32 +0000 Subject: ASUS EEE - first day of sales Message-ID: Apparently the first day was a sell-out for the release in Taipei... http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2007/101707-eee-pc-posts-hot-sales.html?page=1 It would seem likely that the price in Canada might wind up being less than the price in the US, maybehaps ;-). There are no excuses surrounding inventory costs, at any rate... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 21:45:27 2007 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (tleslie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:45:27 -0400 Subject: Distro pick head ache openSuse10.3 vs. ubunutu gutsy ? Message-ID: <1192657527.28630.24.camel@stan64.site> I need to upgrade my main machine, and its obviously a choice between openSuse 10.3 and gutsy because they are both just released distros. I was assuming months ago I was going to switch to ubuntu gutsy (i use open suse 10.2 now). I couldn't help notice the ubuntu community just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and I am a firm believer a kick ass community makes for a good distro. Also lately the blog reviews on linux news sites have dumped on opensuse10.3 but in a google for opensuse10.3 in more main stream outlets, the reviews have actually been stellar. beta gutsy reviews have been good, but it seems opensuse 10.3 made a bigger jump from 10.2 more then gutsy did from fiesty, but then fiesty might have started out better then 10.2 so who knows where absolutely they end up. I am 60% in favour of switching to ubuntu and 40% with Suse, and looking for more info before I install the "winner". For me, i will install the loser in vmware. But since there is copy paste issues and the fact you can't 3D desktop and get the audio proper via vmware, the loser in vmware is more just for particular apps, etc that might run better then the winner. For me the benifit of Suse is: - I dev. in Mono. - Suse has more experience in 3D desktop, i.e. they brought out compiz in 10.2 and beryl (and now fusion) is a fork and recombine of compiz anyways. - Suse tends to have better support for Oracle, etc, and i do use SLES on servers, and Unbuntu isn't there yet. Benefit of ubunutu is: - large community, and even when i google for multimedia issue i find more answers in ubuntu forms then in suse forms. - larger community means things usually means bugs/oddities get hashed out earlier. - bullet proof X seems like a good idea (not sure maybe suse10.3 has it but they havnt stated it). - Suse's "noob menu system sucks, and i put it in classic mode anyways" - with Dell flogging it , i might get better odd ball HW compat. - i think there is better software repo's for ubuntu. - ubuntu does a 6 month distro rotation, open suse longer. As much as people may read this and suggest gentoo, or pclinux, ...... I absolutely am down to strictly considering 10.3 or gutsy, and its looking like i will be leaning to gutsy unless some list members have other feed back that makes me change my mind. If members can give even more pluses for gutsy, well then i will feel better, because then i will not be so torn. I run a quad 2.8 GHz opteron system with 8GB ram and a nvidia 7900GT, dual monitor HP30" and Samsung 22" together for a 3760x1600 desktop. Suse has support this set up great now, I assume ubuntu would to. Gutsy is out tomorrow, so i need to make up my mind quick!! -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 11:13:37 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:13:37 -0400 Subject: ping Message-ID: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote printer. I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping computer1 from computer4. The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. all : allow : all The hosts.deny file has no entries. What can I try next? Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can ping the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping computer1 (which has the printer connected to it). Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 23:21:24 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:21:24 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4715EE61.1010504-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <471698F4.1060109@rogers.com> Chris Aitken wrote: > I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote printer. > I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping computer1 from > computer4. > > The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. > > # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are > # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided > # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. > all : allow : all > > The hosts.deny file has no entries. > > What can I try next? > > Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can ping > the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping computer1 > (which has the printer connected to it). > Can you ping any other computers or the router? Can you ping from 1 to 4? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 23:46:43 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:46:43 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880710171302s15606856q315378a94a5bd4aa-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170939o3842ca84l4c1460b334570f0c@mail.gmail.com> <47166366.5020008@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710171302s15606856q315378a94a5bd4aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47169EE3.8080704@pppoe.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi I'm using the one I bought from Canada Computers for 20.00 :) > > On 10/17/07, Meng Cheah wrote: > >> Dave Germiquet wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I'm using 2wire and and have had no problems with it. It really >>> depends on your luck, some people have problems as soon as they get it >>> and they usually can return it within the 7 day grace period. I >>> usually get 350-450 per second on torrents.. :) >>> >>> >> Just to confirm, are you using the refurbished 2700 from Computers >> Canada or are you on Bell Sympatico and using the 2701 supplied by them? >> >>> There was a report on it with alot of users commenting on the >>> device however at this moment I can't find it. >>> >>> There's been some comments on >>> >>> >> ??? >> Thanks for the pointer. I did a search for "2wire canada computers" and came up the comments. I reset my gateway once again and it wouldn't connect anymore. Back to Canada Computers for an exchange, I also bought another unit so I would have 2 to test. One unit had an AT&T sticker and the other didn't. Both work but I can't configure them both. I think some are defective and some have modified firmware. From the comments, many do work and can be configured. You're lucky that you have a configurable unit :-) The rep on both occasions did the exchange without question when I said "It didn't work." I noticed he took it to the back(where they store the defective units). I have already returned 2 units to Canada Computers(1 on each occasion) and will return one of the two that I presently have. I'll keep one unit for an emergency spare. Enough is enough. Many thanks, Dave and Hugh for the help. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 23:48:13 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:48:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880710171303y30c85856x75381c59a723be8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710170941j47861858r72cdfc51a2be72a@mail.gmail.com> <47166527.8070408@pppoe.ca> <32f6a8880710171303y30c85856x75381c59a723be8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47169F3D.60208@pppoe.ca> Dave Germiquet wrote: > Are you putting this on your net work or are you putting it directly > to a workstation? > The gateway is directly to one computer. > If your putting it on a network try just directly plugging it into the computer. > Thanks for the help. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 23:59:26 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4715EE61.1010504-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4716A1DE.70602@meta-for.org> Chris, Are you able to ping computer1 from computer2 or computer3? do you ping computer1 by IP address or by name, and if by name does the name resolve properly? what does iptables -L say? d -- www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog Chris Aitken wrote: > I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote printer. > I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping computer1 from > computer4. > > The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. > > # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are > # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided > # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. > all : allow : all > > The hosts.deny file has no entries. > > What can I try next? > > Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can ping > the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping computer1 > (which has the printer connected to it). > > Chris > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 12:26:46 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:26:46 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <471698F4.1060109-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <471698F4.1060109@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4715FF86.1090101@chrisaitken.net> James Knott wrote: > Can you ping any other computers or the router? Can you ping from 1 to 4? > I could ping from anything to anything (except computer1). It turns out that my eth0:1 was Deactivated (I don't know why). I guess all other pinging worked okay because my eth0 (for Internet) was still Activated. The first d'uh! came when I couldn't ping myself (at computer1). Sorry - I could have done a little more troubleshooting before I posted. I'm okay now. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 17 12:30:58 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:30:58 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4716A1DE.70602-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <4716A1DE.70602@meta-for.org> Message-ID: <47160082.1090502@chrisaitken.net> Daniel Son wrote: > Chris, > > Are you able to ping computer1 from computer2 or computer3? > do you ping computer1 by IP address or by name, and if by name does > the name resolve properly? > what does iptables -L say? I'm okay now. My eth0:1 (LAN) was just Deactivated. I guess all other pinging worked because eth0 was still Activated. BTW, here's the output of iptables -L Anything in there I should be concerned about (having never used that command)? [root at p733 chris]# /sbin/iptables -L Chain INPUT (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination RH-Firewall-1-INPUT all -- anywhere anywhere Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination REJECT all -- anywhere anywhere reject-with icmp-host-prohibited Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination Chain RH-Firewall-1-INPUT (1 references) target prot opt source destination ACCEPT all -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT icmp -- anywhere anywhere icmp any ACCEPT esp -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT ah -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT udp -- anywhere 224.0.0.251 udp dpt:mdns ACCEPT udp -- anywhere anywhere udp dpt:ipp ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere tcp dpt:ipp ACCEPT all -- anywhere anywhere state RELATED,ESTABLISHED ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere state NEW tcp dpt:ssh REJECT all -- anywhere anywhere reject-with icmp-host-prohibited Chris > > d > > > -- > www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog > > > > Chris Aitken wrote: >> I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote printer. >> I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping computer1 from >> computer4. >> >> The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. >> >> # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are >> # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided >> # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. >> all : allow : all >> >> The hosts.deny file has no entries. >> >> What can I try next? >> >> Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can >> ping the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping >> computer1 (which has the printer connected to it). >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 00:38:20 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:38:20 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4715FF86.1090101-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <471698F4.1060109@rogers.com> <4715FF86.1090101@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4716AAFC.2060905@rogers.com> Chris Aitken wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > >> Can you ping any other computers or the router? Can you ping from 1 >> to 4? >> > I could ping from anything to anything (except computer1). It turns > out that my eth0:1 was Deactivated (I don't know why). I guess all > other pinging worked okay because my eth0 (for Internet) was still > Activated. The first d'uh! came when I couldn't ping myself (at > computer1). Sorry - I could have done a little more troubleshooting > before I posted. > > I'm okay now. Not quite. You may want to check your clock. You apparently sent me this note several hours before I sent the one you replied to. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 01:06:55 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <4716233D.4020605-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: | From: Meng Cheah | > I'd be willing to loan it to you for a week or so. That way we'd both | > find out if it is a reasonable device. | | Thanks for the offer, Hugh. It looks as if my offer is the same as Canada Computers' offer :-) | I bought one last week, plugged it in and it connected. | However, I could not login to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup (or even | http://gateway.2wire.net) to configure the gateway, as per the installation | guide. | | I exchanged the gateway, still no luck. | | Did you manage to connect to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup? I tested this in April and remember few details. I have an ancient Alcatel SpeedTouch Home that I use to connect to Look. For testing, I got a demo account from another provider http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501329 and set the 2wire ADSL modem up with that. (Important traffic comes through my Look connection and I'd rather it down than experimentally up.) Anyway, I made some notes of my 2wire experiments and I will try to reconstitute them here. gateway.2wire.net is a domain name that may resolves in some universe, but not mine. Use the IP address 192.168.1.254 instead. Not in my notes: I think that the gateway will act as a DHCP server and allocate you an address within 192.168.1.254/24. If not, you can always do it yourself, manually. http://192.168.1.254 seemed to be useless. It kept asking for a new password. http://192.168.1.254/management seemed to give traction. http://192.168.1.254/mdc was the same, I think http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=C05&THISPAGE=C01&NEXTPAGE=C05 was apparently worth writing down, but not describing :-( http://192.168.1.254/setup may have done something (I don't remember) I don't think that I figured out what some of the settings did. Experimentation might have solved that problem. I saw somewhere that the Bell Canada recommended key is: 5225-26P4-6262-22AS-B2E7 Googling for this string gets me 6 hits, all of which look worth reading (but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader). | A Teksavvy support rep informed me that Bell has their own firmware on the | gateway so it won't work. I assume that by "Bell" you mean "BCE or its subsidiaries" (eg. Bell Nexia). I say that because "AT&T" owns the Bell trademarkand I think that you do NOT mean AT&T. By "gateway" do you mean "ADSL modem"? If so, I've never heard of this and it seems somewhat unlikely. If you meant instead "router behind the modem", I think not. After all, they certainly don't have it on my router (a Linux box that I configured). | My first purchase had an AT&T sticker on it. The one I exchanged had no | sticker. Mine says AT&T. | That may explain why I can't login to configure the gateway. I expect not. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 01:46:09 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:46:09 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <47160082.1090502-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <4716A1DE.70602@meta-for.org> <47160082.1090502@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4716BAE1.7050004@meta-for.org> Good you've figured it out. from iptables output i see that IPP is opened for the rest of the world. unless it is blocked by another, internet facing firewall, anybody can print on your printers, or you are using ipsec for the comupter4 to access computer1 (I see it is opened on compter1 as well). D -- www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog Chris Aitken wrote: > Daniel Son wrote: >> Chris, >> >> Are you able to ping computer1 from computer2 or computer3? >> do you ping computer1 by IP address or by name, and if by name does >> the name resolve properly? >> what does iptables -L say? > I'm okay now. My eth0:1 (LAN) was just Deactivated. I guess all other > pinging worked because eth0 was still Activated. > > BTW, here's the output of iptables -L > Anything in there I should be concerned about (having never used that > command)? > > [root at p733 chris]# /sbin/iptables -L > Chain INPUT (policy ACCEPT) > target prot opt source destination > RH-Firewall-1-INPUT all -- anywhere anywhere > Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT) > target prot opt source destination REJECT > all -- anywhere anywhere reject-with > icmp-host-prohibited > > Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT) > target prot opt source destination > Chain RH-Firewall-1-INPUT (1 references) > target prot opt source destination ACCEPT > all -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT icmp -- > anywhere anywhere icmp any > ACCEPT esp -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT > ah -- anywhere anywhere ACCEPT udp -- > anywhere 224.0.0.251 udp dpt:mdns > ACCEPT udp -- anywhere anywhere udp dpt:ipp > ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere tcp dpt:ipp > ACCEPT all -- anywhere anywhere state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED > ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere state NEW > tcp dpt:ssh > REJECT all -- anywhere anywhere > reject-with icmp-host-prohibited > > Chris > >> >> d >> >> >> -- >> www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog >> >> >> >> Chris Aitken wrote: >>> I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote >>> printer. I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping >>> computer1 from computer4. >>> >>> The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. >>> >>> # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are >>> # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided >>> # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. >>> all : allow : all >>> >>> The hosts.deny file has no entries. >>> >>> What can I try next? >>> >>> Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can >>> ping the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping >>> computer1 (which has the printer connected to it). >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 01:47:56 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:47:56 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4716AAFC.2060905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <471698F4.1060109@rogers.com> <4715FF86.1090101@chrisaitken.net> <4716AAFC.2060905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4716BB4C.5070903@meta-for.org> James is right I think you have AM/PM mixed up. -- www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog James Knott wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > >> James Knott wrote: >> >> >> >>> Can you ping any other computers or the router? Can you ping from 1 >>> to 4? >>> >>> >> I could ping from anything to anything (except computer1). It turns >> out that my eth0:1 was Deactivated (I don't know why). I guess all >> other pinging worked okay because my eth0 (for Internet) was still >> Activated. The first d'uh! came when I couldn't ping myself (at >> computer1). Sorry - I could have done a little more troubleshooting >> before I posted. >> >> I'm okay now. >> > > Not quite. You may want to check your clock. You apparently sent me > this note several hours before I sent the one you replied to. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 02:03:10 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:03:10 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4716BB4C.5070903-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <471698F4.1060109@rogers.com> <4715FF86.1090101@chrisaitken.net> <4716AAFC.2060905@rogers.com> <4716BB4C.5070903@meta-for.org> Message-ID: <4716BEDE.8040305@chrisaitken.net> Daniel Son wrote: > James is right I think you have AM/PM mixed up. I did. Thank you. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 02:08:33 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:08:33 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4716BAE1.7050004-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <4716A1DE.70602@meta-for.org> <47160082.1090502@chrisaitken.net> <4716BAE1.7050004@meta-for.org> Message-ID: <4716C021.1090902@chrisaitken.net> Daniel Son wrote: > Good you've figured it out. from iptables output i see that IPP is > opened for the rest of the world. unless it is blocked by another, > internet facing firewall, anybody can print on your printers, or you > are using ipsec for the comupter4 to access computer1 (I see it is > opened on compter1 as well). It's probably not a good thing I reply to the whole group. I don't understand what you're asking. I have no idea about security things. I wish there was a pain-free way to learn slowly about linux security and implement things as I understand them. : / Chris > > D > > > -- > www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog > > > > Chris Aitken wrote: >> Daniel Son wrote: >>> Chris, >>> >>> Are you able to ping computer1 from computer2 or computer3? >>> do you ping computer1 by IP address or by name, and if by name does >>> the name resolve properly? >>> what does iptables -L say? >> I'm okay now. My eth0:1 (LAN) was just Deactivated. I guess all other >> pinging worked because eth0 was still Activated. >> >> BTW, here's the output of iptables -L >> Anything in there I should be concerned about (having never used that >> command)? >> >> [root at p733 chris]# /sbin/iptables -L >> Chain INPUT (policy ACCEPT) >> target prot opt source destination >> RH-Firewall-1-INPUT all -- anywhere anywhere >> Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT) >> target prot opt source destination >> REJECT all -- anywhere anywhere >> reject-with icmp-host-prohibited >> >> Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT) >> target prot opt source destination Chain >> RH-Firewall-1-INPUT (1 references) >> target prot opt source destination >> ACCEPT all -- anywhere anywhere >> ACCEPT icmp -- anywhere anywhere icmp any >> ACCEPT esp -- anywhere anywhere >> ACCEPT ah -- anywhere anywhere >> ACCEPT udp -- anywhere 224.0.0.251 udp >> dpt:mdns >> ACCEPT udp -- anywhere anywhere udp dpt:ipp >> ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere tcp dpt:ipp >> ACCEPT all -- anywhere anywhere state >> RELATED,ESTABLISHED >> ACCEPT tcp -- anywhere anywhere state >> NEW tcp dpt:ssh >> REJECT all -- anywhere anywhere >> reject-with icmp-host-prohibited >> >> Chris >> >>> >>> d >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Aitken wrote: >>>> I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote >>>> printer. I guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping >>>> computer1 from computer4. >>>> >>>> The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. >>>> >>>> # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are >>>> # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided >>>> # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. >>>> all : allow : all >>>> >>>> The hosts.deny file has no entries. >>>> >>>> What can I try next? >>>> >>>> Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can >>>> ping the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping >>>> computer1 (which has the printer connected to it). >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 02:28:38 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:28:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4716C4D6.4020306@pppoe.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Meng Cheah > > | > I'd be willing to loan it to you for a week or so. That way we'd both > | > find out if it is a reasonable device. > | > | Thanks for the offer, Hugh. > > It looks as if my offer is the same as Canada Computers' offer :-) > After the original post, I came across the 2wire at Canada Computers. Who can resist a $20 deal? Then came your reply and offer. Thanks, I really appreciate your offer :-) > | I bought one last week, plugged it in and it connected. > | However, I could not login to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup (or even > | http://gateway.2wire.net) to configure the gateway, as per the installation > | guide. > | > | I exchanged the gateway, still no luck. > | > | Did you manage to connect to http://gateway.2wire.net/setup? > > I tested this in April and remember few details. > > I have an ancient Alcatel SpeedTouch Home that I use to connect to > Look. For testing, I got a demo account from another provider > http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501329 > and set the 2wire ADSL modem up with that. (Important traffic comes > through my Look connection and I'd rather it down than > experimentally up.) > > Anyway, I made some notes of my 2wire experiments and I will try to > reconstitute them here. > > gateway.2wire.net is a domain name that may resolves in some universe, > but not mine. Use the IP address 192.168.1.254 instead. > > Not in my notes: I think that the gateway will act as a DHCP server > and allocate you an address within 192.168.1.254/24. If not, you can > always do it yourself, manually. > > http://192.168.1.254 seemed to be useless. It kept asking for a new > password. > > http://192.168.1.254/management seemed to give traction. > > http://192.168.1.254/mdc was the same, I think > > http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=C05&THISPAGE=C01&NEXTPAGE=C05 was > apparently worth writing down, but not describing :-( > > http://192.168.1.254/setup may have done something (I don't remember) > > I don't think that I figured out what some of the settings did. > Experimentation might have solved that problem. > > I saw somewhere that the Bell Canada recommended key is: > 5225-26P4-6262-22AS-B2E7 > Googling for this string gets me 6 hits, all of which look worth > reading (but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader). > Many thanks for digging the information up. I'm looking it up now. From the AT&T store, http://store.att.com/catalog/productdetails.asp?ProductId=1000-401047-000#headerProductFeatures it appears that there are different versions (of firmware?). > | A Teksavvy support rep informed me that Bell has their own firmware on the > | gateway so it won't work. > > I assume that by "Bell" you mean "BCE or its subsidiaries" (eg. Bell > Nexia). I say that because "AT&T" owns the Bell trademarkand I think > that you do NOT mean AT&T. > When he said Bell and since Bell Sympatico is also using 2wire, I assumed Bell Sympatico. Strange that Sympatico does not appear in this page of partners, http://2wire.net/index.php?p=73. AT&T does, as well as Telus. > By "gateway" do you mean "ADSL modem"? If so, I've never heard of > this and it seems somewhat unlikely. > > If you meant instead "router behind the modem", I think not. After > all, they certainly don't have it on my router (a Linux box that I > configured). > I mean modem-cum-router. It connects to the internet (modem) and according to the documentation, http://2wire.net/index.php?p=266, it also a 4-port router with wireless. It has 4 ethernet ports and at the front panel, there is a wireless LED(unlit on mine). Of course, there is more than 1 model. From the postings on the net, many who bought it from Canada Computers and Logic Computers have the whole package going. Again, many do not and many do not even connect. > | My first purchase had an AT&T sticker on it. The one I exchanged had no > | sticker. > > Mine says AT&T. > > | That may explain why I can't login to configure the gateway. > > I expect not. > Many thanks for the offer and help, Hugh. Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 03:50:15 2007 From: asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Asaf Maruf) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:50:15 -0700 Subject: Distro pick head ache openSuse10.3 vs. ubunutu gutsy ? In-Reply-To: <1192657527.28630.24.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192657527.28630.24.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <49e826e90710172050l25fea091y1a7289e2c22f43c3@mail.gmail.com> I would wait and see Gutsy before comparing with OpenSuse 10.3. The novell distro is much richer in terms of applications and presentation. Admittedly Gutsy is packaging a lot of goodies with this release. And i know for a fact that they have collaborated with LTSP directly to make it easy to setup thin clients. D-day is tomorrow. Asaf On 10/17/07, tleslie wrote: > I need to upgrade my main machine, and its obviously a choice between > openSuse 10.3 and gutsy because they are both just released distros. > > I was assuming months ago I was going to switch to ubuntu gutsy (i use > open suse 10.2 now). > > I couldn't help notice the ubuntu community just keeps getting bigger > and bigger, and I am a firm believer a kick ass community makes for a > good distro. > > Also lately the blog reviews on linux news sites have dumped on > opensuse10.3 > but in a google for opensuse10.3 in more main stream outlets, > the reviews have actually been stellar. > > beta gutsy reviews have been good, but it seems opensuse 10.3 > made a bigger jump from 10.2 more then gutsy did from fiesty, > but then fiesty might have started out better then 10.2 > so who knows where absolutely they end up. > > I am 60% in favour of switching to ubuntu and 40% with Suse, > and looking for more info before I install the "winner". > > For me, i will install the loser in vmware. > But since there is copy paste issues and the fact you can't > 3D desktop and get the audio proper via vmware, > the loser in vmware is more just for particular apps, etc > that might run better then the winner. > > For me the benifit of Suse is: > > - I dev. in Mono. > - Suse has more experience in 3D desktop, i.e. they brought out > compiz in 10.2 and beryl (and now fusion) is a fork and recombine > of compiz anyways. > - Suse tends to have better support for Oracle, etc, and i do use SLES > on servers, and Unbuntu isn't there yet. > > Benefit of ubunutu is: > > - large community, and even when i google for multimedia issue > i find more answers in ubuntu forms then in suse forms. > - larger community means things usually means bugs/oddities get hashed > out earlier. > - bullet proof X seems like a good idea (not sure maybe suse10.3 has it > but they havnt stated it). > - Suse's "noob menu system sucks, and i put it in classic mode anyways" > - with Dell flogging it , i might get better odd ball HW compat. > - i think there is better software repo's for ubuntu. > - ubuntu does a 6 month distro rotation, open suse longer. > > > > As much as people may read this and suggest gentoo, or pclinux, ...... > I absolutely am down to strictly considering 10.3 or gutsy, > and its looking like i will be leaning to gutsy > unless some list members have other feed back that makes me change my > mind. > If members can give even more pluses for gutsy, well then i will feel > better, because then i will not be so torn. > > I run a quad 2.8 GHz opteron system with 8GB ram and a nvidia 7900GT, > dual monitor HP30" and Samsung 22" together for a 3760x1600 desktop. > Suse has support this set up great now, I assume ubuntu would to. > > > Gutsy is out tomorrow, so i need to make up my mind quick!! > > -tl > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." - Richard P. Feynman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 05:00:54 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:00:54 -0400 Subject: The last word on MMP? In-Reply-To: References: <470FDEC8.4060804@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071018050054.GC9794@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 06:00:19PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote > So yeah, with MMP, we might have a couple Green MPPs that we don't > have. The Conservatives would have gained several times that many > seats. > > Anyone that thought that MMP would be a "bonanza" for left-leaning > representation, and therefore a "good thing," should think twice. Errr, uhmmm, I hate to break this to you, but John Tory has a reputation amongst conservatives as "left-leaning". The Ontario PC's keep on electing "Red Tories" as leaders (Miller, Grossman, Eves, and Tory), and small-c conservative voters stay home leading to Liberal and NDP governments. Note the one exception to that list in recent times. Mike Harris got back-to-back majorities. When will they learn? -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 05:44:21 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: <4716C4D6.4020306-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <4716C4D6.4020306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Meng Cheah wrote: | Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:28:38 -0400 | From: Meng Cheah | Reply-To: | To: | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway | | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > | From: Meng Cheah | > | > | > I'd be willing to loan it to you for a week or so. That way we'd both | > | > find out if it is a reasonable device. | > | | > | Thanks for the offer, Hugh. | > | > It looks as if my offer is the same as Canada Computers' offer :-) | > | After the original post, I came across the 2wire at Canada Computers. | Who can resist a $20 deal? Then came your reply and offer. | Thanks, I really appreciate your offer :-) To make my comment clear (but less funny): I offered you a week to play with my modem and Canada Computers offers you 7 days to return one you bought from them. Kind of similar. | > | A Teksavvy support rep informed me that Bell has their own firmware on the | > | gateway so it won't work. | When he said Bell and since Bell Sympatico is also using 2wire, I assumed Bell | Sympatico. | Strange that Sympatico does not appear in this page of partners, | http://2wire.net/index.php?p=73. | AT&T does, as well as Telus. | > By "gateway" do you mean "ADSL modem"? If so, I've never heard of | > this and it seems somewhat unlikely. | > | > If you meant instead "router behind the modem", I think not. After | > all, they certainly don't have it on my router (a Linux box that I | > configured). | > | I mean modem-cum-router. I think you mean modem-plus-router. | It connects to the internet (modem) and according to | the documentation, | http://2wire.net/index.php?p=266, it also a 4-port router with wireless. It | has 4 ethernet ports and at the front panel, there is a wireless LED(unlit on | mine). Of course, there is more than 1 model. | From the postings on the net, many who bought it from Canada Computers and | Logic Computers have the whole package going. Again, many do not and many do | not even connect. Trying to be analytical, I think that the functionality can be separated. There should not be anything particular-to-Sympatico about ADSL and neither should there be anything particular-to-Sympatico about a router. Both conform to standards. Some customization exists for some providers. It seems to be in the form of locking down parameters. The "key" I gave you is apparently somewhat generic and thus should leave all parameters to be configured by the user. This is theory -- I have not tested this recently. | Many thanks for the offer and help, Hugh. You are welcome. We all help each other to defeat these dragons. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 13:24:40 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:24:40 -0400 Subject: Distro pick head ache openSuse10.3 vs. ubunutu gutsy ? In-Reply-To: <1192657527.28630.24.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192657527.28630.24.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <1f13df280710180624q6b7ad99dj83c380f8e42b2a61@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/07, tleslie wrote: > Gutsy is out tomorrow, so i need to make up my mind quick!! No, you don't. As Asaf said, take your time. Give Gutsy a couple of weeks. It may be fine, but every once in a while new distro releases come out with a hideous bug or two that the developers didn't catch. Relax and sit back: Suse 10.2 is working fine for you, use it for a little longer. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 13:28:11 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:28:11 -0400 Subject: Distro pick head ache openSuse10.3 vs. ubunutu gutsy ? In-Reply-To: <1192657527.28630.24.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192657527.28630.24.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <20071018132811.GU4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 05:45:27PM -0400, tleslie wrote: > I need to upgrade my main machine, and its obviously a choice between > openSuse 10.3 and gutsy because they are both just released distros. > > I was assuming months ago I was going to switch to ubuntu gutsy (i use > open suse 10.2 now). > > I couldn't help notice the ubuntu community just keeps getting bigger > and bigger, and I am a firm believer a kick ass community makes for a > good distro. Well Ubuntu is based on Debian which gives it the strongest foundation you can get in a Linux distribution, and the most thought out package system design available. personally I stick with pure Debian, but I can see why Ubuntu apeals to people. The one time I installed suse just to try it I was very unimpressed. It's net install method was almost as unfriendly as openbsd was at the time. Netbsd was more pleasant to install than suse. > Also lately the blog reviews on linux news sites have dumped on > opensuse10.3 > but in a google for opensuse10.3 in more main stream outlets, > the reviews have actually been stellar. > > beta gutsy reviews have been good, but it seems opensuse 10.3 > made a bigger jump from 10.2 more then gutsy did from fiesty, > but then fiesty might have started out better then 10.2 > so who knows where absolutely they end up. Yeah feisty is not a problem, and doing incremental improvements is great. If there is enough wrong that a point release can be a major improvement, then it must really have started off rather bad. > I am 60% in favour of switching to ubuntu and 40% with Suse, > and looking for more info before I install the "winner". > > For me, i will install the loser in vmware. > But since there is copy paste issues and the fact you can't > 3D desktop and get the audio proper via vmware, > the loser in vmware is more just for particular apps, etc > that might run better then the winner. What would not run well on ubuntu? > For me the benifit of Suse is: > > - I dev. in Mono. > - Suse has more experience in 3D desktop, i.e. they brought out > compiz in 10.2 and beryl (and now fusion) is a fork and recombine > of compiz anyways. Just because you own something doesn't mean you know how to integrate it well. > - Suse tends to have better support for Oracle, etc, and i do use SLES > on servers, and Unbuntu isn't there yet. I think it is more a matter of Oracle thinks suse is "enterprise" and hence supports it. Oracle doesn't understand the concept of a community. > Benefit of ubunutu is: > > - large community, and even when i google for multimedia issue > i find more answers in ubuntu forms then in suse forms. > - larger community means things usually means bugs/oddities get hashed > out earlier. > - bullet proof X seems like a good idea (not sure maybe suse10.3 has it > but they havnt stated it). > - Suse's "noob menu system sucks, and i put it in classic mode anyways" > - with Dell flogging it , i might get better odd ball HW compat. Hardware support should for the most part be mainly a matter of which kernel version you have. Inclussion of some 3rd party drivers (especially some of the non free ones) can make a difference of course. > - i think there is better software repo's for ubuntu. > - ubuntu does a 6 month distro rotation, open suse longer. Some people like frequent changes, some people just want things to stay working. Ubuntu seems to generally do a good job doing both. > As much as people may read this and suggest gentoo, or pclinux, ...... > I absolutely am down to strictly considering 10.3 or gutsy, > and its looking like i will be leaning to gutsy > unless some list members have other feed back that makes me change my > mind. > If members can give even more pluses for gutsy, well then i will feel > better, because then i will not be so torn. > > I run a quad 2.8 GHz opteron system with 8GB ram and a nvidia 7900GT, > dual monitor HP30" and Samsung 22" together for a 3760x1600 desktop. > Suse has support this set up great now, I assume ubuntu would to. Should work fine. Would be a nice system to run 64bit on, but 64bit linux still has a few applications that aren't quite happy with that yet. > Gutsy is out tomorrow, so i need to make up my mind quick!! You don't have to install it the first day it is out you know. It will still be there next week. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 13:30:26 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:30:26 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <4715EE61.1010504-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071018133026.GV4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 07:13:37AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I am trying to set up a fourth computer to print to a remote printer. I > guess I know how to do this now, but I can't ping computer1 from computer4. > > The hosts.allow file (computer1) looks fine. > > # hosts.allow This file describes the names of the hosts which are > # allowed to use the local INET services, as decided > # by the '/usr/sbin/tcpd' server. > all : allow : all > > The hosts.deny file has no entries. > > What can I try next? > > Computer4 is on the Internet (through router>cable modem) and can ping > the other two computers and the router. It just can't ping computer1 > (which has the printer connected to it). hosts.deny/hosts.allow only affect programs that use those files (which is very few, mainly those that use tcp wrappers). In general it has nothing to do with anything. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 16:13:12 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:13:12 -0400 Subject: rsync performance In-Reply-To: <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <002701c81063$3cef46a0$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <7ac602420710161921w7e4976b8m4936223a001327@mail.gmail.com> <003001c81067$064db150$0105a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20071018161312.GW4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:40:04PM -0400, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I need to rsync 2 files (3GB and 4GB) from my home to another location over > DSL. > > But I need it to be reliable. As I understand it, if portions of the file > are changed, but not the entire file, rsync should only update changed > portions? > > What's the actual efficiency of this process? rsync is VERY efficient. The white paper on the original design is an interesting read. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 16:18:30 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:18:30 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015114727.39f7b902-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071018161830.GX4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:47:27AM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > > Up until recently I could access my web server no problem, now I get > 'connection refused'. My site is out of date and quite lame, but it does come in > handy for other things once in awhile, like sharing stuff that is too big to be > sent via e-mail. > > Of course, the correct port is forwarded, and as far as I can tell the DNS is > correct. I use Zonedit to maintain the resolution, but now I have a static IP > so that hasn't been all that necessary to update. > > One thing I notice is that when I try a ping, it shows the correct IP, but it > looks like something in the name Teksavvy uses might be interfering: > > [joehill at node1:~>$]ping freeyourmachine.org > PING freeyourmachine.org (206.248.172.54) 56(84) bytes of data. > 64 bytes from 206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (206.248.172.54): icmp_seq=1 > ttl=64 time=1.15 ms > > --- freeyourmachine.org ping statistics --- > 6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5016ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.599/1.401/3.218/0.973 ms > > Am I correct in thinking that the problem is the > '206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com'? If so, how would I correct that? The reverse DNS has nothing to do with your webserver. No problem there. Can you telnet from another outside machine to port 80 on your IP and get a connection? If not then either your firewall or your ISP is blocking access to port 80 or your firewall isn't forwarding it in (or back out) correctly. tcpdump on the internal interface on the firewall should be able to show if any port 80 packets are being forwarded in and if any replies are being made. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 16:20:08 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:20:08 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071015143657.4163aa23-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 02:36:57PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > Amazingly, so is mine now. Incredible, all I had to do was change the port > forward on the router from UDP to TCP. > > Man I am such an idiot sometimes. Very sorry for the wasted time, but thanks to > everyone who helped eliminate all of the possible problems that did not relate > to my own stupidity... :-\ How did it end up on UDP? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 16:24:06 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:24:06 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <491100.48566.qm-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071018162406.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 08:11:53PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > For most stuff your right, the stores around College > and Spadina are normally cheaper than TigerDirect. > > There are some exceptions, a few months ago I bought a > home theater PC case from the Tiger Direct shop in > Etobicoke. Now good looking home theater cases are a > bit of a specialty item (i.e. most of the College / > Spadina shops DON'T carry them). Of the few shops > around that do, at least at the time Tiger Direct was > the least expensive option. > > As with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. SOME > good deals to be found at Tiger Direct, BUT.... Well for home theatre cases, I would recomend a silverstone case (which isn't cheap) but is carried by canada computers. I really like my LC16M. Nice solid case, lots of room, looks good, great features, and solid enough to dampen whatever noise the machine makes. Most of what tiger direct sells is junk (in my opinion). They have a few decent parts, but usually at a higher price than the better places have it for. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 16:30:58 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:30:58 -0400 Subject: cached - any tools to explain what has been cached on linux In-Reply-To: <1192397585.5561.16.camel-Wos4hdNTH4j6K7/ahGyk6A@public.gmane.org> References: <1192397585.5561.16.camel@stan64.site> Message-ID: <20071018163058.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 05:33:05PM -0400, tleslie wrote: > I set up a machine with postgres, > and a 16GB of RAM and its really quick as compared to > a similar machine running postgres with similar DB > and only 3GB RAM. > > Does anyone know of any utils or profiling tools > that would explain what the cache in linux > is doing? > > TOP: > > Mem: 16440144k total, 12889668k used, 3550476k free, 69076k buffers > Swap: 2104472k total, 10732k used, 2093740k free, 10203404k cached > > i'd love to know how/what is in that 10 GB of cache > > i know it stores allocation blocks for programs to use, but its > got to be so much more then that. Disk cache. :) So even if postgres only uses a bit of ram itself, the whole database might end up read into ram, so only writes have to go to disk. That would be rather fast. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 17:56:25 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:56:25 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <20071018162406.GZ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20071018162406.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47179E49.8070208@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well for home theatre cases, I would recomend a silverstone case (which > isn't cheap) but is carried by canada computers. I really like my > LC16M. Nice solid case, lots of room, looks good, great features, and > solid enough to dampen whatever noise the machine makes. > I'll add a plug for Canada Computers. I especially like their newest location, at the NW corner of Jane and Rutherford across the street from Vaughan Mills. It's more than 10 times larger than the other CC location I know (near Yonge & Finch) and close in size to the Tiger stores. Every time I go there it seems like the place is overstaffed, but that may just be because it's fairly new. But they certainly know their stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that place as a source of everything from Xeon servers to neon-glowing game boxes. - Evan PS: Most things one could find at College/Spadina can also be found at and around Pacific Mall. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:18:49 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:18:49 -0400 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <174208.92530.qm-0ht2EKPqlcyB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <47101720.2080303@pppoe.ca> <174208.92530.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071018181849.GB4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 08:17:17PM -0700, Salman Ahmed wrote: > The main reason I am considering ordering from the US is availability of a specific > book title: > > http://tinyurl.com/yuht7t > Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C, 2nd Edition > by Bruce Schneier > > The above book is not available through amazon.ca as a new book order but is readily > available through amazon.COM. > > Otherwise I'd be shopping from amazon.ca in a heartbeat. Indogo/chapters has the book, although for quite a bit more than amazon.com wants for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:22:17 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:22:17 -0400 Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <47179E49.8070208-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <2605.99.232.71.193.1192400876.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <491100.48566.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20071018162406.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47179E49.8070208@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071018182217.GC4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 01:56:25PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I'll add a plug for Canada Computers. I buy almost all my computer stuff there now, although I still occationally go to logic computer house (although the selection is nowhere near as good as CC) since it is closer to my house and the prices seem to be the same. > I especially like their newest location, at the NW corner of Jane and > Rutherford across the street from Vaughan Mills. It's more than 10 times > larger than the other CC location I know (near Yonge & Finch) and close > in size to the Tiger stores. The richmond hill location is similar to the vaughn mills location in size. No idea what their brampton location is like. > Every time I go there it seems like the place is overstaffed, but that > may just be because it's fairly new. But they certainly know their > stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that place as a source of > everything from Xeon servers to neon-glowing game boxes. Certainly some of the older locations can be completely nuts at certain times of the day (especially saturdays). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:44:06 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:44:06 -0400 Subject: cached - any tools to explain what has been cached on linux In-Reply-To: <20071018163058.GA4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1192397585.5561.16.camel@stan64.site> <20071018163058.GA4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4717A976.5080408@meta-for.org> Also interesting reading on this subject: http://sourcefrog.net/weblog/software/linux-kernel/free-mem.html and also slabtop command or /proc/slabinfo (harder to read), can give you info about active caches. The total cache size still will be way below what 'top' shows, but the above link gives some good explanation why. D -- www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 05:33:05PM -0400, tleslie wrote: > >> I set up a machine with postgres, >> and a 16GB of RAM and its really quick as compared to >> a similar machine running postgres with similar DB >> and only 3GB RAM. >> >> Does anyone know of any utils or profiling tools >> that would explain what the cache in linux >> is doing? >> >> TOP: >> >> Mem: 16440144k total, 12889668k used, 3550476k free, 69076k buffers >> Swap: 2104472k total, 10732k used, 2093740k free, 10203404k cached >> >> i'd love to know how/what is in that 10 GB of cache >> >> i know it stores allocation blocks for programs to use, but its >> got to be so much more then that. >> > > Disk cache. :) So even if postgres only uses a bit of ram itself, the > whole database might end up read into ram, so only writes have to go to > disk. That would be rather fast. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 19:55:50 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT:Tigerdirect.ca prices In-Reply-To: <20071018162406.GZ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071018162406.GZ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <924829.45984.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 08:11:53PM -0400, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > For most stuff your right, the stores around > College > > and Spadina are normally cheaper than TigerDirect. > > > > > There are some exceptions, a few months ago I > bought a > > home theater PC case from the Tiger Direct shop in > > Etobicoke. Now good looking home theater cases are > a > > bit of a specialty item (i.e. most of the College > / > > Spadina shops DON'T carry them). Of the few shops > > around that do, at least at the time Tiger Direct > was > > the least expensive option. > > > > As with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. > SOME > > good deals to be found at Tiger Direct, BUT.... > > Well for home theatre cases, I would recomend a > silverstone case (which > isn't cheap) but is carried by canada computers. I > really like my > LC16M. Nice solid case, lots of room, looks good, > great features, and > solid enough to dampen whatever noise the machine > makes. Yes, I bought a Silverstone LC13-B case from Tiger Direct, nice case and at the time I bought it Tiger Direct was cheaper than Canada Computers. Granted, not a cheap case in more ways than one... > Most of what tiger direct sells is junk (in my > opinion). They have a > few decent parts, but usually at a higher price than > the better places > have it for. Well, as with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. At least with Tiger Direct, they do have a nicely laid out website so you can quickly check prices and see how they compare on prices against the other shops... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 22:20:03 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:20:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Recommendations for ADSL gateway In-Reply-To: References: <4710EF2F.6010208@pppoe.ca> <4716233D.4020605@pppoe.ca> <4716C4D6.4020306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4717DC13.7000407@pppoe.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Meng Cheah wrote: > > | > | Thanks for the offer, Hugh. > | > > | > It looks as if my offer is the same as Canada Computers' offer :-) > | > > | After the original post, I came across the 2wire at Canada Computers. > | Who can resist a $20 deal? Then came your reply and offer. > | Thanks, I really appreciate your offer :-) > > To make my comment clear (but less funny): I offered you a week to > play with my modem and Canada Computers offers you 7 days to return > one you bought from them. Kind of similar. > I know and was laughing :-) > | > | A Teksavvy support rep informed me that Bell has their own firmware on the > | > | gateway so it won't work. > > | > By "gateway" do you mean "ADSL modem"? If so, I've never heard of > | > this and it seems somewhat unlikely. > | > > | > If you meant instead "router behind the modem", I think not. After > | > all, they certainly don't have it on my router (a Linux box that I > | > configured). > | > > | I mean modem-cum-router. > > I think you mean modem-plus-router. > Yes. > Trying to be analytical, I think that the functionality can be > separated. There should not be anything particular-to-Sympatico about > ADSL and neither should there be anything particular-to-Sympatico > about a router. Both conform to standards. > > Some customization exists for some providers. It seems to be in the > form of locking down parameters. The "key" I gave you is apparently > somewhat generic and thus should leave all parameters to be configured > by the user. > > This is theory -- I have not tested this recently. > My problem is I can't even get to the web page to have the opportunity to login and configure it :-) Still, I'm keeping one as a spare. > | Many thanks for the offer and help, Hugh. > > You are welcome. We all help each other to defeat these dragons. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 22:51:11 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:51:11 -0700 Subject: Ordering from Amazon.COM (USA) In-Reply-To: <717289.90330.qm-0ht2EKPqlcyB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <470FEBD3.20105@rogers.com> <717289.90330.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710181551q5479712agb1bab67664c66943@mail.gmail.com> I've ordered bigger price-tag items via USPS from various vendors and been hit with the fees (usually through Canada-Post), though they are usually fairly reasonable. In my experience though, circumventing the ground-border entirely often has positive results. My airmail packages tend to avoid border holdups, processing fees, and taxation. Anything I've had that goes through the border usually ended up costing me more in those fees than the difference between air/surface delivery. On 10/12/07, Salman Ahmed wrote: > --- James Knott wrote: > > > > > You might be charged GST and if that, also the post office storage > > charge. If it comes by UPS, you'll be hit with an obscene "border > > broker" fee. > > > > I hope they provide the option to ship via USPS (US Postal Service). I've had very > good experiences when receiving shipments from the US using USPS. They don't charge > a brokerage fee - at least they haven't in the past. > > In any event, I'll be expensing this book order through my employer so let them > charge me a brokerage fee if they wish! :) > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 23:51:01 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:51:01 -0400 Subject: ping In-Reply-To: <20071018133026.GV4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4715EE61.1010504@chrisaitken.net> <20071018133026.GV4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4717F165.5080509@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > hosts.deny/hosts.allow only affect programs that use those files (which > is very few, mainly those that use tcp wrappers). In general it has > nothing to do with anything. > Okay, that won't be my first stop for LAN connectivity issues, then. Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 04:41:43 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:41:43 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071018161830.GX4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018161830.GX4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071019004143.2cecd219@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:47:27AM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > > > > Up until recently I could access my web server no problem, now I get > > 'connection refused'. My site is out of date and quite lame, but it does > > come in handy for other things once in awhile, like sharing stuff that is > > too big to be sent via e-mail. > > > > Of course, the correct port is forwarded, and as far as I can tell the DNS > > is correct. I use Zonedit to maintain the resolution, but now I have a > > static IP so that hasn't been all that necessary to update. > > > > One thing I notice is that when I try a ping, it shows the correct IP, but > > it looks like something in the name Teksavvy uses might be interfering: > > > > [joehill at node1:~>$]ping freeyourmachine.org > > PING freeyourmachine.org (206.248.172.54) 56(84) bytes of data. > > 64 bytes from 206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (206.248.172.54): icmp_seq=1 > > ttl=64 time=1.15 ms > > > > --- freeyourmachine.org ping statistics --- > > 6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5016ms > > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.599/1.401/3.218/0.973 ms > > > > Am I correct in thinking that the problem is the > > '206-248-172-54.dsl.teksavvy.com'? If so, how would I correct that? > > The reverse DNS has nothing to do with your webserver. No problem > there. > > Can you telnet from another outside machine to port 80 on your IP and > get a connection? If not then either your firewall or your ISP is > blocking access to port 80 or your firewall isn't forwarding it in (or > back out) correctly. That was it exactly, though it was not the firewall's 'fault'. I had somehow set it to forward the port using UDP, which for some weird reason does not work too well with HTTP ;) Perhaps I'll submit an RFC to have that changed...hee hee. Thanks! -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: You gotta help me, Bender. How can I prove I'm human? Bender: You could drop dead. That'd show 'em. Fry: I don't wanna. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 05:20:28 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:20:28 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071018162008.GY4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 02:36:57PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > > Amazingly, so is mine now. Incredible, all I had to do was change the port > > forward on the router from UDP to TCP. > > > > Man I am such an idiot sometimes. Very sorry for the wasted time, but > > thanks to everyone who helped eliminate all of the possible problems that > > did not relate to my own stupidity... :-\ > > How did it end up on UDP? Not sure, really. The interface for the firewall config defaults to TCP, of course. Thing is, whenever my firewall goes down because of a power failure, I have to put the port forwards back in, they're not saved. Anyway, one of those times, in my haste, I must have gotten confused between my webserver and the one that runs bittorrent, and set it to use UDP. Next time I'll be paying closer attention. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: You gotta help me, Bender. How can I prove I'm human? Bender: You could drop dead. That'd show 'em. Fry: I don't wanna. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 05:50:40 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:50:40 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019012028.2d686ba0-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710182250w710837b9h15294b8ba8915782@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/07, JoeHill wrote: > Anyway, one of those times, in my haste, I must have gotten confused between my > webserver and the one that runs bittorrent, and set it to use UDP. Next time > I'll be paying closer attention. Sounds like a job for a script! :) I'm slowly learning the benefits of taking the time to write a script for seldom-performed-but-important/delicate tasks. It's better, in the long run, to encode your knowledge in executable form so you don't have to remember how to do it next time. It also means you're more likely to fix things than break them while drunk/sleepy/rushed. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 06:41:25 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:41:25 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710182250w710837b9h15294b8ba8915782-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710182250w710837b9h15294b8ba8915782@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071019024125.15dd939d@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/19/07, JoeHill wrote: > > Anyway, one of those times, in my haste, I must have gotten confused > > between my webserver and the one that runs bittorrent, and set it to use > > UDP. Next time I'll be paying closer attention. > > Sounds like a job for a script! :) I'm slowly learning the benefits > of taking the time to write a script for > seldom-performed-but-important/delicate tasks. It's better, in the > long run, to encode your knowledge in executable form so you don't > have to remember how to do it next time. It also means you're more > likely to fix things than break them while drunk/sleepy/rushed. What made you think of drunk? ;) I love scripting things to save time, however with this clunker I'm pretty sure it's not possible. I'm running this floppy-based firewall thing: http://www.bbiagent.net/en/index.html It uses iptables, but I haven't the faintest idea how I would access the thing in such a way that I could set up any sort of startup script. Worst of all, the interface is Java...ugh. Not a clue how that works. What I will do eventually, when this old horse finally kicks is use one of my other old boxes and load smoothwall, but until then it just keeps on ticking and fits very nicely behind the panel below the breaker box with my giant 12 port powered hub...and a couple of empty beer bottles =-) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "Is he dumb or just ugly?" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 08:54:31 2007 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:54:31 -0400 Subject: Print jobs on ubuntu (Feisty Fawn) Message-ID: <1192784071.28056.12.camel@aragorn> Ubuntu detected my wireless printer (a Brother MFC-640CW), and I was able to download and install drivers for it. The problem is that it simply won't print. Brother recommends an MFC-210C driver for my printer under Linux/CUPS. If I send a test page from the CUPS dialog, the test page stops dead, and a message appears in the CUPS state column saying "Stopped: job-stopped". The printer remains silent. This is true for all print jobs sent from Linux, regardless of the method (command line, dialog, application (Adobe Acrobat was tried), or a CUPS window). The correct syntax of lpr was used on the command line and in the Acrobat dialog. I can telnet to the IP of the printer and print a test page directly from the printer. I just can't do anything in Linux. The printer works great in Window$. This means that the network and printer are both working. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 11:22:36 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:22:36 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019012028.2d686ba0-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4718937C.4030109@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 02:36:57PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: >> >>> Amazingly, so is mine now. Incredible, all I had to do was change the port >>> forward on the router from UDP to TCP. >>> >>> Man I am such an idiot sometimes. Very sorry for the wasted time, but >>> thanks to everyone who helped eliminate all of the possible problems that >>> did not relate to my own stupidity... :-\ >>> >> How did it end up on UDP? >> > > Not sure, really. The interface for the firewall config defaults to TCP, of > course. Thing is, whenever my firewall goes down because of a power failure, I > have to put the port forwards back in, they're not saved. > > Anyway, one of those times, in my haste, I must have gotten confused between my > webserver and the one that runs bittorrent, and set it to use UDP. Next time > I'll be paying closer attention. > > If the firewall/router doesn't save the config, I'd recommend getting one that works properly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 13:36:12 2007 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Print jobs on ubuntu (Feisty Fawn) In-Reply-To: <1192784071.28056.12.camel@aragorn> References: <1192784071.28056.12.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <482434.86949.qm@web61312.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul King wrote: > Ubuntu detected my wireless printer (a Brother MFC-640CW), and I > was > able to download and install drivers for it. The problem is that it > simply won't print. Brother recommends an MFC-210C driver for my > printer > under Linux/CUPS. > > If I send a test page from the CUPS dialog, the test page stops > dead, > and a message appears in the CUPS state column saying "Stopped: > job-stopped". The printer remains silent. This is true for all > print > jobs sent from Linux, regardless of the method (command line, > dialog, > application (Adobe Acrobat was tried), or a CUPS window). The > correct > syntax of lpr was used on the command line and in the Acrobat > dialog. > > I can telnet to the IP of the printer and print a test page > directly > from the printer. I just can't do anything in Linux. The printer > works > great in Window$. This means that the network and printer are both > working. > > Any help or advice would be appreciated. > > Paul King > This might be a problem with the spooler. What is the status of the print queue when you check is with lpstat -t? EK Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:19:38 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:19:38 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019012028.2d686ba0-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071019141938.GD4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 01:20:28AM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > Not sure, really. The interface for the firewall config defaults to TCP, of > course. Thing is, whenever my firewall goes down because of a power failure, I > have to put the port forwards back in, they're not saved. I would say it is time to get a new firewall. I hate things that waste my time. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:21:42 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:21:42 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <4713812F.1040507-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071019142142.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:03:11AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a printer attached to PC1. > > I print to that printer remotely from PC2. > > I want to setup PC3 to print to that remote printer as well. Nothing is > working. I am trying to copy the settings I used (on PC2) to set up > remote printing on PC3. I can only see so many settings in the cups > 'printer' on PC1 and PC2 without destroying those 'printers'. Is there a > way to see all the settings I entered when I (successfully) created the > 'printers' on PC1 and PC2? > > All three PCs are on te Internet and can ping one another. Just to > reiterate, I can print and I can print remotely - I just can't repeat > the steps (to set up a PC to print remotely). > > PC1, PC2 ad PC3 are not the real names of the computers - I'm just > trying to make it easy to track things... Well one option (which I use) is to have one machine be the cups print server, and configure it to share it's printers with the network. Then every other machine with cups installed will just automatically see those shared printers and work with no further setup. Current versions of cups have a checkbox in the web setup to enable network access to the printers on the machine. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:25:13 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:25:13 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <3a97ef0710160138l3a15d5c5v6a3c31c70373a83f@mail.gmail.com> <47142154.9090409@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071019142513.GF4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:33:57AM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > And is nmbd running on the PC with the printer? I needed that in my setup. You only need that if you want to use (the inferior) windows printer sharing. You can access IPP printers directly from windows 2000 and higher (and win 98 with the right driver installed). That is what ipp|http://host:631/printers/printername is. IPP has the advantage over smb that you don't have to be logged in for it to work, so on a network with a domain controller you can log in as the local admin without logging into the domain and you can still print if you use IPP. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:31:25 2007 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:31:25 -0400 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables Message-ID: I have a FREENAS box running at home. It is setup to allow NFS connections only from the local network 192.168.0.X I was thinking it would be nice to use this NFS drive remotely but securely. Is there a way I can tunnel NFS via SSH? Or how about using iptables to only allow NFS connections based on mac hardware addresses? TIA! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:50:12 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:50:12 -0400 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071019145012.GG4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:31:25AM -0400, Teddy Mills wrote: > I have a FREENAS box running at home. > It is setup to allow NFS connections only from the local network > 192.168.0.X > I was thinking it would be nice to use this NFS drive remotely but > securely. > > Is there a way I can tunnel NFS via SSH? > Or how about using iptables to only allow NFS connections based on mac > hardware addresses? MAC address only apply to local ethernet traffic. Not sure you can tunnel NFS. It is one of those horrible portmap designs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:52:34 2007 From: jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org (jmacaranas-/DrkG639A0k at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:34 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] -NFS-ssh-iptables - Email found in subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D32E9B6A504554489FFFD81E7FF281305788859@MX01.fxdd.com> Hi, Get all ports which is related to NFS.. portmap, nfs, statd etc.. and use iptables... why use the MAC? Wherein you can use the IP? Hth, -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Teddy Mills Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:31 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [SPAM] - [TLUG]: NFS-ssh-iptables - Email found in subject I have a FREENAS box running at home. It is setup to allow NFS connections only from the local network 192.168.0.X I was thinking it would be nice to use this NFS drive remotely but securely. Is there a way I can tunnel NFS via SSH? Or how about using iptables to only allow NFS connections based on mac hardware addresses? TIA! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It may contain sensitive and private proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. FXDirectDealer, LLC reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them. Unless otherwise stated, any pricing information given in this message is indicative only, is subject to change and does not constitute an offer to deal at any price quoted. Any reference to the terms of executed transactions should be treated as preliminary only and subject to our formal confirmation. FXDirectDealer, LLC is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account activity contained in this communication. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 15:47:49 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:47:49 -0400 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4718D1A5.8030701@meta-for.org> you can get some ideas from here (don't know, maybe you saw this one already). The general idea is to make NFS server to use static ports, as soon as you do it, you can establish ssh tunnels, either manually or through a script. Making NFS use static ports is more or less mandatory whether you use iptables or ssh tunnels http://www.howtoforge.com/nfs_ssh_tunneling D -- http://www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog Teddy Mills wrote: > > I have a FREENAS box running at home. > It is setup to allow NFS connections only from the local network > 192.168.0.X > I was thinking it would be nice to use this NFS drive remotely but > securely. > > Is there a way I can tunnel NFS via SSH? > Or how about using iptables to only allow NFS connections based on mac > hardware addresses? > > TIA! > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 16:14:16 2007 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:16 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <20071019142142.GE4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <20071019142142.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4718D7D8.7040400@sympatico.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:03:11AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I have a printer attached to PC1. >> >> I print to that printer remotely from PC2. >> >> I want to setup PC3 to print to that remote printer as well. Nothing is >> working. I am trying to copy the settings I used (on PC2) to set up >> remote printing on PC3. I can only see so many settings in the cups >> 'printer' on PC1 and PC2 without destroying those 'printers'. Is there a >> way to see all the settings I entered when I (successfully) created the >> 'printers' on PC1 and PC2? >> >> All three PCs are on te Internet and can ping one another. Just to >> reiterate, I can print and I can print remotely - I just can't repeat >> the steps (to set up a PC to print remotely). >> >> PC1, PC2 ad PC3 are not the real names of the computers - I'm just >> trying to make it easy to track things... >> > > Well one option (which I use) is to have one machine be the cups print > server, and configure it to share it's printers with the network. Then > every other machine with cups installed will just automatically see > those shared printers and work with no further setup. > > Current versions of cups have a checkbox in the web setup to enable > network access to the printers on the machine. > > -- > Len Sorensen I use the same setup (cups) and it works as you describe for every box I have except for the Ubuntu box. When I boot it up it doesn't see the printer. Cups appears to be installed. Does anyone know if this is normal for Ubuntu? I thought it should work without having to go through the setup routine of specifying URI, drivers, etc. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 16:44:49 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:44:49 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019141938.GD4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071019141938.GD4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071019124449.59dbe870@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 01:20:28AM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > > Not sure, really. The interface for the firewall config defaults to TCP, of > > course. Thing is, whenever my firewall goes down because of a power > > failure, I have to put the port forwards back in, they're not saved. > > I would say it is time to get a new firewall. I hate things that waste > my time. Well, it is only three entries... Seriously, I know you're right, but for six years this thing has never failed me. I just turn it on and I'm connected and protected. I really don't want to buy one of those appliances, like I said to Ian, I'm definitely yearning to build another one of my own based on something that will let do some learnin'. I've always wanted to play with those firewall rules that let me do fun things like block certain e-mails from ever hitting my server. I can't believe that's even possible. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "Tell the Donbot I'm quitting organized crime. From now on I'll stick to the regular kind." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 17:00:08 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:00:08 -0400 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4718E298.1050704@rogers.com> Teddy Mills wrote: > > I have a FREENAS box running at home. > It is setup to allow NFS connections only from the local network > 192.168.0.X > I was thinking it would be nice to use this NFS drive remotely but > securely. I have used NFS via VPN > > Is there a way I can tunnel NFS via SSH? > Or how about using iptables to only allow NFS connections based on mac > hardware addresses? MAC addresses won't work, if you're going through a router. A MAC address is valid on the local network only. When the packets go through a router, the original MAC is replaced by the one for the router port it leaves by. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 17:19:50 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:19:50 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <4718937C.4030109-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4718937C.4030109@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071019131950.0e0ac813@node1.freeyourmachine.org> James Knott wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 02:36:57PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > >> > >>> Amazingly, so is mine now. Incredible, all I had to do was change the port > >>> forward on the router from UDP to TCP. > >>> > >>> Man I am such an idiot sometimes. Very sorry for the wasted time, but > >>> thanks to everyone who helped eliminate all of the possible problems that > >>> did not relate to my own stupidity... :-\ > >>> > >> How did it end up on UDP? > >> > > > > Not sure, really. The interface for the firewall config defaults to TCP, of > > course. Thing is, whenever my firewall goes down because of a power > > failure, I have to put the port forwards back in, they're not saved. > > > > Anyway, one of those times, in my haste, I must have gotten confused > > between my webserver and the one that runs bittorrent, and set it to use > > UDP. Next time I'll be paying closer attention. > > > > > If the firewall/router doesn't save the config, I'd recommend getting > one that works properly. Alright, jeez, you guys are worse than my wife! Well, okay, she's never nagged me to upgrade my firewall... ;) What's the recommendation, then? I've always leaned toward Smoothwall, but I hear that a lot of people use IPCop. I've got the machine, an old P2 sitting here doing nothing. It definitely won't fit where my old one does, but that's okay, I need to do some reconfiguring anyway, I was actually thinking of going wireless. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Amy: "Bender, your beer belly's so big your door won't even close. And that doesn't even make sense." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 18:21:50 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:21:50 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019131950.0e0ac813-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4718937C.4030109@rogers.com> <20071019131950.0e0ac813@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071019182150.GH4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 01:19:50PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: > Alright, jeez, you guys are worse than my wife! Well, okay, she's never nagged > me to upgrade my firewall... ;) > > What's the recommendation, then? I've always leaned toward Smoothwall, but I > hear that a lot of people use IPCop. I've got the machine, an old P2 sitting > here doing nothing. It definitely won't fit where my old one does, but that's > okay, I need to do some reconfiguring anyway, I was actually thinking of going > wireless. In general I have tended to use a debian base install with shorewall. At home I currently just have a USR8054 taking care of things because I have been too lazy to setup anything else lately. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 18:47:53 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:47:53 -0400 Subject: Can't access my web server In-Reply-To: <20071019131950.0e0ac813-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071015114727.39f7b902@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071015123603.75279d75@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <47139AE1.2070803@rogers.com> <20071015141330.7fc7962c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <7ac602420710151120v18513bacof32474792c7b722e@mail.gmail.com> <20071015143657.4163aa23@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071018162008.GY4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071019012028.2d686ba0@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4718937C.4030109@rogers.com> <20071019131950.0e0ac813@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4718FBD9.2060809@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > Alright, jeez, you guys are worse than my wife! Well, okay, she's never nagged > me to upgrade my firewall... ;) > > What's the recommendation, then? I've always leaned toward Smoothwall, but I > hear that a lot of people use IPCop. I've got the machine, an old P2 sitting > here doing nothing. It definitely won't fit where my old one does, but that's > okay, I need to do some reconfiguring anyway, I was actually thinking of going > wireless. > > I picked up one of those mini case used computers and installed SUSE on it. It has 3 NICs for internet, local lan and WiFi ports. This allows me to have my WiFi access outside of the firewall. I also have the firewall configured with SSH and OpenVPN connections, for remote access. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 17:46:11 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:46:11 -0400 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables In-Reply-To: <4718D1A5.8030701-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4718D1A5.8030701@meta-for.org> Message-ID: <200710191346.17608.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 19, 2007 11:47:49 am Daniel Son wrote: > you can get some ideas from here (don't know, maybe you saw this one > already). The general idea is to make NFS server to use static ports, > as soon as you do it, you can establish ssh tunnels, either manually > or through a script. Making NFS use static ports is more or less > mandatory whether you use iptables or ssh tunnels > > http://www.howtoforge.com/nfs_ssh_tunneling If using ssh for tunnelling, why not just use sshfs to mount remote directories locally via ssh, and all via fuse? Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 21:39:03 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:39:03 -0700 Subject: NFS-ssh-iptables In-Reply-To: <200710191346.17608.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4718D1A5.8030701@meta-for.org> <200710191346.17608.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710191439k33acc6d1ob3cb0726c4ec9695@mail.gmail.com> FYI, SSHFS is part of FUSE, which in itself has a bunch of modules that can do some very nifty tricks: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/sshfs.html It's pretty nice when used in conjunction with autofs or something similar, as well. As a side-note, does anyone know of any NAS boxes that have decent linux support? I've got an Airlink Airnas at home, but the firmware updates still come in windows format (though it uses linux, and can have an ext2 filesystem onboard), and it doesn't support mount-types other than SMB. Personally, I'd like to find one that uses reiserfs/XFS and support other mount-types. I prefer NAS drives over USB ones as they generally have the power options to spin-down the disk when not in use. On 10/19/07, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On October 19, 2007 11:47:49 am Daniel Son wrote: > > you can get some ideas from here (don't know, maybe you saw this one > > already). The general idea is to make NFS server to use static ports, > > as soon as you do it, you can establish ssh tunnels, either manually > > or through a script. Making NFS use static ports is more or less > > mandatory whether you use iptables or ssh tunnels > > > > http://www.howtoforge.com/nfs_ssh_tunneling > > If using ssh for tunnelling, why not just use sshfs to mount remote > directories locally via ssh, and all via fuse? > > Jamon > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 22:43:08 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:43:08 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth Message-ID: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage off. Any ideas? tnx jk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 12:37:15 2007 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:37:15 -0400 Subject: Print jobs on ubuntu (Feisty Fawn) In-Reply-To: <482434.86949.qm-MKFrfjzrikGA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <482434.86949.qm@web61312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1192883835.11468.12.camel@aragorn> On Fri, 2007-19-10 at 09:36 -0400, E K wrote: > --- Paul King wrote: > > > Ubuntu detected my wireless printer (a Brother MFC-640CW), and I > > was > > able to download and install drivers for it. The problem is that it > > simply won't print. Brother recommends an MFC-210C driver for my > > printer > > under Linux/CUPS. > > This might be a problem with the spooler. What is the status of the > print queue when you check is with lpstat -t? > > EK > Here is the output of lpstat -t : scheduler is running system default destination: MFC-640CW device for MFC-640CW: socket://192.168.0.103 MFC-640CW accepting requests since Sat 20 Oct 2007 08:18:02 AM EDT printer MFC-640CW is idle. enabled since Sat 20 Oct 2007 08:18:02 AM EDT Ready to print. MFC-640CW-13 pking 153600 Fri 19 Oct 2007 04:41:06 AM EDT So, I seem to be getting what I call the "Windows diagnosis" ("this device is working properly", regardless of the state, condition, or appropriateness of the driver or device). It seems that the printer is "idle" and "ready to print" but it has a job queued, which hasn't printed since yesterday (it is the same print job, which I still haven't deleted from the queue). I didn't know about lpstat. Sounds like a good command to remember. However, it doesn't seem too informative right about now. Any other suggestions? Thanks for your help so far. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 12:37:23 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:37:23 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <20071019142142.GE4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <20071019142142.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4719F683.8090900@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well one option (which I use) is to have one machine be the cups print > server, and configure it to share it's printers with the network. Then > every other machine with cups installed will just automatically see > those shared printers and work with no further setup. > Okay - that's kind of what I thought I had. I guess a locally attached, shared (I think cups call sit 'Published') printer is not the same as a cups 'server' (?). Chris > Current versions of cups have a checkbox in the web setup to enable > network access to the printers on the machine. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 20:35:38 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:35:38 -0400 Subject: printing problem (pdf) with HP Deskjet 5940 Message-ID: It prints text files. When I open pdf file (Evince; this is on CentOS 5) and start printing, in "Document print status" I see initially message "printing" fiollowed by "completed". But no sign of attempt to print by printer itself. Googling did not help much. It throws out a lot of interesting links but I do not find the right info. Funny thing is that etering "printing PDF on Linux" gives rather info about how to configure CUPS to create a pdf file, not how to print a pdf file. Somewhere I found this simple recipe: lpr -P HPDeskJet5940 IMM5574E.pdf But it also does not seem to do anything and I see no related errors in /var/log/messages. I see there however something else that must be related to printing, something like this: Oct 20 16:07:55 localhost hpijs: unable to send DeviceStatus: Bad file descriptor: hplip_api.c 650 That message repeats itself since last Thusday, a few times every second, and /var/log/messages is already 3 GB large (I do not remember if or what I did last Thusday that would be ralted to printing, actually I think that I did nothing related to printing). lpq does not show any jobs in quee. I have no good understanding how printing works. 1. How to print pdf files? 2. How to stop hpjis message going into log file? zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 19:39:02 2007 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim ruxton) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:39:02 -0400 Subject: Local Data Recovery Service? Message-ID: <1192909142.5431.124.camel@jims-laptop> Hi I have a friend who's mac laptop hard drive failed and she didn't have backups. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive but reliable data recovery service in the GTA? Thanks, Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 02:44:40 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:44:40 -0400 Subject: printing problem (pdf) with HP Deskjet 5940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071021024440.GA24047@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 04:35:38PM -0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote > I have no good understanding how printing works. > > 1. How to print pdf files? Can your printer/driver handle PDF in the first place? If not, can it handle postscript. If so "man pdf2ps" for instructions on converting PDF fiels to PS. Then print the PS version > 2. How to stop hpjis message going into log file? You need to kill some process somewhere. Assuming you have a generic setup, try... /etc/init.d/cupsd restart Plan B... "ps -ef | less" and see which process looks suspicious and kill it. Plan C... reboot. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 03:35:22 2007 From: myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:35:22 -0400 Subject: Local Data Recovery Service? In-Reply-To: <1192909142.5431.124.camel@jims-laptop> References: <1192909142.5431.124.camel@jims-laptop> Message-ID: <471AC8FA.9010808@monkeyinyoursoul.com> I haven't used them but they are our next door neighbors at work: werecoverdata.com . jim ruxton wrote: > Hi I have a friend who's mac laptop hard drive failed and she didn't > have backups. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive but reliable data > recovery service in the GTA? > Thanks, > Jim > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 16:42:10 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:42:10 -0400 Subject: printing problem (pdf) with HP Deskjet 5940 In-Reply-To: <20071021024440.GA24047-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20071021024440.GA24047@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 10/20/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 04:35:38PM -0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote > > > I have no good understanding how printing works. > > > > 1. How to print pdf files? > > Can your printer/driver handle PDF in the first place? Thats what I am asking ;) My feeling is that CUPS tends to use PDF as a standard? Than it would not be so much to printer to handle it but tu CUPS... > handle postscript. If so "man pdf2ps" for instructions on converting > PDF fiels to PS. Then print the PS version That i know. > > 2. How to stop hpjis message going into log file? > > You need to kill some process somewhere. Assuming you have a generic > setup, try... > /etc/init.d/cupsd restart > > Plan B... "ps -ef | less" and see which process looks suspicious and > kill it. > > Plan C... reboot. Ugly method that I did not want to use. But it worked ;) zb. > > -- > Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 > Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? > A. I think it would be a good idea. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 01:27:56 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MaRS Entrepreneurship 101 Message-ID: <4480.99.232.68.237.1193016476.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> To those in TLUG who are thinking of starting a business: this looks like a good course in entrepreneurship and the cost is right: it's free. But you have to register. The listed website has the curriculum outline. Peter ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: MaRS Entrepreneurship 101 From: "Robert Dirstein" Date: Wed, October 17, 2007 12:38 pm To: researchnet-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MaRS as part of the Business Mentorship and Entrepreneurship Program (BMEP) is offering a non-credit cours "Entrepreneurship 101" Lectures are most Wednesdays from 5:30 - 6:30 beginning Ocotber 31. The series targets researchers in biological and physical sciences and engineering. It assumes no prior knowledge of business and offers lectures on a diverse range of topics including finding financing, defining markets, hiring teams and protecting intellectual property. Further details are available on the MaRS website - http://www.marsdd.com/Events/Event-Calendar/Ent101.html -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 13:27:47 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:27:47 -0400 Subject: setup remote printer in cups In-Reply-To: <4719F683.8090900-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4713812F.1040507@chrisaitken.net> <20071019142142.GE4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4719F683.8090900@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071022132747.GI4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 08:37:23AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Okay - that's kind of what I thought I had. I guess a locally attached, > shared (I think cups call sit 'Published') printer is not the same as a > cups 'server' (?). You find the cups setup at http://localhost:631/admin/ and log in with your root account. How the printer actually attaches to the "print server" doesn't matter, other machines will access it the same no matter what. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 13:30:06 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: printing problem (pdf) with HP Deskjet 5940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071022133006.GJ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 04:35:38PM -0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > It prints text files. > > When I open pdf file (Evince; this is on CentOS 5) and start printing, > in "Document print status" I see initially message "printing" > fiollowed by "completed". But no sign of attempt to print by printer > itself. > > Googling did not help much. It throws out a lot of interesting links > but I do not find the right info. Funny thing is that etering > "printing PDF on Linux" gives rather info about how to configure CUPS > to create a pdf file, not how to print a pdf file. > > Somewhere I found this simple recipe: > lpr -P HPDeskJet5940 IMM5574E.pdf > But it also does not seem to do anything and I see no related errors > in /var/log/messages. > > I see there however something else that must be related to printing, > something like this: > > Oct 20 16:07:55 localhost hpijs: unable to send DeviceStatus: Bad file > descriptor: hplip_api.c 650 > > That message repeats itself since last Thusday, a few times every > second, and /var/log/messages is already 3 GB large (I do not remember > if or what I did last Thusday that would be ralted to printing, > actually I think that I did nothing related to printing). lpq does not > show any jobs in quee. > > I have no good understanding how printing works. > > 1. How to print pdf files? > 2. How to stop hpjis message going into log file? PDFs just print like any other file for me (lpr somefile.pdf) using cups. No clue about hpjis. I do know cups tends to need ghostscript, a2ps, and a few other tools installed to work properly. foomatic might be needed too. Your error message seems to indicate a problem with hpjis though. Do other types of files print fine? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 13:31:19 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:31:19 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth In-Reply-To: <471932FC.6080302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071022133119.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 06:43:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various > businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage > off. Any ideas? The bottom left has a list of things to show. I have never had anything I couldn't disable from that. The hardest part is figuring out what it is I want disabled. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 14:11:21 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:11:21 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth In-Reply-To: <20071022133119.GK4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> <20071022133119.GK4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <471CAF89.1050709@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 06:43:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various >> businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage >> off. Any ideas? >> > > The bottom left has a list of things to show. I have never had anything > I couldn't disable from that. The hardest part is figuring out what it > is I want disabled. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I tried those and didn't have much luck. I'll try again tonite. tnx -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:06:17 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:06:17 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? Message-ID: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> One of my .ca domain names is up for renewal. When I purchased my first .ca after returning to Canada about a year and a half ago, I didn't have a credit card so I went for the cheapest Toronto place I could find - somewhere where I could walk in the door and pay cash. I chose budgetnames.ca . They used to use tucows to register domains, but since I registered this domain they've started their own registrar called "arcticnames.ca". What this has meant is that the renewal, which should have been simple, has turned into a nightmare (partly of my own making - I put it off, and now the deadline is, well, tomorrow). I can't renew online because their form says there was a problem: "Could Not Confirm Transfer/Renewal: Cookie Invalid". I started a new, clean Firefox profile that accepted all cookies and got the same error. I've been trying to call them for a week and a half, and they answer the phone about one time in five. They don't seem to answer email tech support requests. The last time I got through on the phone the woman assured me she'd look into it and call back in an hour. She has not, and once again they aren't picking up the phone. So, this is a dis-recommendation for budgetnames.ca - and probably, by extension, arcticnames.ca, lowcostdomains.ca, and registeryour.ca, all of which are run by the same group. There may be others. Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid credit card it's not a big issue. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:26:00 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:26:00 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071022152600.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:06:17AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > One of my .ca domain names is up for renewal. When I purchased my > first .ca after returning to Canada about a year and a half ago, I > didn't have a credit card so I went for the cheapest Toronto place I > could find - somewhere where I could walk in the door and pay cash. I > chose budgetnames.ca . They used to use tucows to register domains, > but since I registered this domain they've started their own registrar > called "arcticnames.ca". What this has meant is that the renewal, > which should have been simple, has turned into a nightmare (partly of > my own making - I put it off, and now the deadline is, well, > tomorrow). I can't renew online because their form says there was a > problem: "Could Not Confirm Transfer/Renewal: Cookie Invalid". I > started a new, clean Firefox profile that accepted all cookies and got > the same error. I've been trying to call them for a week and a half, > and they answer the phone about one time in five. They don't seem to > answer email tech support requests. The last time I got through on > the phone the woman assured me she'd look into it and call back in an > hour. She has not, and once again they aren't picking up the phone. > > So, this is a dis-recommendation for budgetnames.ca - and probably, by > extension, arcticnames.ca, lowcostdomains.ca, and registeryour.ca, all > of which are run by the same group. There may be others. > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy > with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid > credit card it's not a big issue. I use a friend of mine as registrar, but I wouldn't recommend it for general use. It generally takes a call to his cell phone to prod him to make him realize there are requests sitting in the queue to be done. But hey it works for me so I am not complaining. People tat don't know him and hence don't have the cell phone number would obviously not like using this registrar. If someone does recommend a good one, maybe I should consider switching just to make life simpler in general. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tentra-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:42:27 2007 From: tentra-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Seneca Cunningham) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:42:27 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth In-Reply-To: <471932FC.6080302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071022154227.GB5014@herodotus.lan> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 06:43:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various > businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage > off. Any ideas? I took a quick look at the Google Earth website, in particular the product comparison page. It looks like you can turn it off if you send Google $20 a year. -- Seneca tentra-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:45:44 2007 From: myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:45:44 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <471CC5A8.6000207@monkeyinyoursoul.com> I use DomainDirect.ca for my Canadian Domains and 1and1 for my com names. Giles Orr wrote: > One of my .ca domain names is up for renewal. When I purchased my > first .ca after returning to Canada about a year and a half ago, I > didn't have a credit card so I went for the cheapest Toronto place I > could find - somewhere where I could walk in the door and pay cash. I > chose budgetnames.ca . They used to use tucows to register domains, > but since I registered this domain they've started their own registrar > called "arcticnames.ca". What this has meant is that the renewal, > which should have been simple, has turned into a nightmare (partly of > my own making - I put it off, and now the deadline is, well, > tomorrow). I can't renew online because their form says there was a > problem: "Could Not Confirm Transfer/Renewal: Cookie Invalid". I > started a new, clean Firefox profile that accepted all cookies and got > the same error. I've been trying to call them for a week and a half, > and they answer the phone about one time in five. They don't seem to > answer email tech support requests. The last time I got through on > the phone the woman assured me she'd look into it and call back in an > hour. She has not, and once again they aren't picking up the phone. > > So, this is a dis-recommendation for budgetnames.ca - and probably, by > extension, arcticnames.ca, lowcostdomains.ca, and registeryour.ca, all > of which are run by the same group. There may be others. > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy > with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid > credit card it's not a big issue. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:46:50 2007 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:46:50 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20071022152600.GL4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> <20071022152600.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071022154649.GA995@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:26:00AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:06:17AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy > > with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid > > credit card it's not a big issue. > > If someone does recommend a good one, maybe I should consider switching > just to make life simpler in general. :) > domainsat cost has always been good for me. I think you'd have to walk in to Ottawa, in order to slap cash on thier counter, and I don't think they're the /absolute/ cheapest, but I've a dosen domains with them and thier service has always been excellent. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:47:13 2007 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:47:13 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4549c08f0710220847k1e9d436va90ca25e33668a89@mail.gmail.com> On 22/10/2007, Giles Orr wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy > with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid > credit card it's not a big issue. I would recommend easydns.ca - they do more than register .ca domains, but they are very solid, they seem to know their stuff and they've been around for 6+ years consistently delivering outstanding service. William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:59:15 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:59:15 -0400 Subject: [OT]: What is this on Google Maps? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, The recent thread on "Crap in Google Earth" (GE is interesting, but bloated and not particularly useful AFAICT) got me thinking about an "artifact" I discovered a few weeks ago in Google Maps while researching an article on Global Warming. I'm really not sure what it is, but I have a couple theories: - It's the largest "Golden Ticket" produced by Willy Wonka - It's the remnants of a _huge_ construction project from some ancient society in Greenland. Lol. At first I thought it might just be some imaging artifact - part of the satellite itself perhaps. Considering the scales involved though, I'm not so sure. Whatever it is, it _appears_ very large (approx. 40km long by 15km wide) and "emerging" from the ice. Looks kinda like an Construction-Orange I-beam. To check it out plug this into Google Maps: 70.546862, -40.067139 -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:02:45 2007 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <4549c08f0710220847k1e9d436va90ca25e33668a89-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> <4549c08f0710220847k1e9d436va90ca25e33668a89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13867.192.168.20.1.1193068965.squirrel@nray.ca> I've had a lot of luck with netfirms.ca They will register both .ca and .com domains and provide free dns management and URL forwarding as well. $9.95 per year. Stephen On Mon, October 22, 2007 11:47, William Witteman wrote: > On 22/10/2007, Giles Orr wrote: > > >> Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy >> with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid >> credit card it's not a big issue. > > I would recommend easydns.ca - they do more than register .ca domains, > but they are very solid, they seem to know their stuff and they've been > around for 6+ years consistently delivering outstanding service. > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:14:52 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:14:52 -0400 Subject: [OT]: What is this on Google Maps? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071022161452.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:59:15AM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > The recent thread on "Crap in Google Earth" (GE is interesting, but > bloated and not particularly useful AFAICT) got me thinking about an > "artifact" I discovered a few weeks ago in Google Maps while > researching an article on Global Warming. > > I'm really not sure what it is, but I have a couple theories: > > - It's the largest "Golden Ticket" produced by Willy Wonka > - It's the remnants of a _huge_ construction project from some ancient > society in Greenland. > > Lol. At first I thought it might just be some imaging artifact - part > of the satellite itself perhaps. Considering the scales involved > though, I'm not so sure. Whatever it is, it _appears_ very large > (approx. 40km long by 15km wide) and "emerging" from the ice. Looks > kinda like an Construction-Orange I-beam. > > To check it out plug this into Google Maps: > 70.546862, -40.067139 Looks like land mostly obscured by clouds. Of course some satelite pictures have odd colour maps, so who knows what it really looks like. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:19:18 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:19:18 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <13867.192.168.20.1.1193068965.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> <4549c08f0710220847k1e9d436va90ca25e33668a89@mail.gmail.com> <13867.192.168.20.1.1193068965.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710220919r9471325s2a3451d1a78073df@mail.gmail.com> On 10/22/07, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > I've had a lot of luck with netfirms.ca > They will register both .ca and .com domains and provide free dns > management and URL forwarding as well. $9.95 per year. I've also dealt with Netfirms. Not sure I'd go as far as endorsing them, but I don't have anything negative to report either. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:22:45 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:22:45 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth In-Reply-To: <20071022154227.GB5014-vkYFIkAGxrRX/yNt62IEWw@public.gmane.org> References: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> <20071022154227.GB5014@herodotus.lan> Message-ID: <471CCE55.4080005@rogers.com> Seneca Cunningham wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 06:43:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various >> businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage >> off. Any ideas? >> > > I took a quick look at the Google Earth website, in particular the > product comparison page. It looks like you can turn it off if you send > Google $20 a year. > > So, it would appear they've turned something useful into crapware. :-( tnx -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:57:52 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:57:52 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've successfully used http://www.registeryour.ca/ for my .ca domains after my previous registrar disappeared without (much of) a trace about 2 years ago. They seem to be well organized and fairly efficient. Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:59:56 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:59:56 -0400 Subject: Crap in Google Earth In-Reply-To: <471CCE55.4080005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <471932FC.6080302@rogers.com> <20071022154227.GB5014@herodotus.lan> <471CCE55.4080005@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/22/07, James Knott wrote: > Seneca Cunningham wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 06:43:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > > > >> Recently, Google Earth started including a lot of crap for various > >> businesses, landmarks etc. I cannot find any way to turn this garbage > >> off. Any ideas? > >> > > > > I took a quick look at the Google Earth website, in particular the > > product comparison page. It looks like you can turn it off if you send > > Google $20 a year. > > > > > So, it would appear they've turned something useful into crapware. :-( Well, they're just 'monetizing' the service. So you pay your $20/year, or they get your eyeballs whenever you use the service. Your choice. :) Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 17:53:31 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:53:31 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> Flying in the face of conventional wisdom - and partially relevant to the thread "Geek woman news story of possible interest..."[1] is this CNN article: "NASA refuses to disclose air safety survey" http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22/nasa.air.safety.ap/index.html While this isn't related to terrorism, I still think it has some repercussions as regards to the general usage of aircraft for transit. In particular, this quote scares the crap outta me[2]: 'A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, said revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in airlines and affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the survey results "present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of the U.S. commercial aviation industry."' [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/35517 [2] I personally don't fly very often, but through various FOSS communities, clients, family, etc. I know many that do. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 18:11:06 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:11:06 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071022141106.4e1cb8aa@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: > Flying in the face of conventional wisdom - and partially relevant to > the thread "Geek woman news story of possible interest..."[1] is this > CNN article: > > "NASA refuses to disclose air safety survey" > http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22/nasa.air.safety.ap/index.html > > While this isn't related to terrorism, I still think it has some > repercussions as regards to the general usage of aircraft for transit. > In particular, this quote scares the crap outta me[2]: > > 'A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, > said revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in > airlines and affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the > survey results "present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of > the U.S. commercial aviation industry."' Gee, I thought that capitalism encouraged the free exchange of ideas ;) -- JoeHill, resident Commie ++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Zoidberg: "Talk to the claw." Bender: "Bite my collosal metal ass." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 18:44:00 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:44:00 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071022184400.GN4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 01:53:31PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Flying in the face of conventional wisdom - and partially relevant to > the thread "Geek woman news story of possible interest..."[1] is this > CNN article: > > "NASA refuses to disclose air safety survey" > http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22/nasa.air.safety.ap/index.html > > While this isn't related to terrorism, I still think it has some > repercussions as regards to the general usage of aircraft for transit. > In particular, this quote scares the crap outta me[2]: > > 'A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, > said revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in > airlines and affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the > survey results "present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of > the U.S. commercial aviation industry."' > > [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/35517 > [2] I personally don't fly very often, but through various FOSS > communities, clients, family, etc. I know many that do. A big part of the problem is that they included general aviation (as in private pilots) in the data. What you really want to do is compare: Commercial planes to other methods of commercial/public transit Commercial planes against private people in their own cars Commercial/public transit compared to people in their own cars Private pilots compared to private cars Many private pilots do stupid things, just like many drivers of cars do stupid things (as anyone that has been on the road lately knows). Unfortunately when you do something stupid in a small plane, it is likely to go worse than doing something stupid in a car. The people flying the commercial planes are much more trained, have better equipment, and have more than one person to deal with the situation. So if you compare commercial flying to driving in your own car, I am sure the commercial plane wins on safety record. If you compare all flying to all driving, then the flying probably looses quite badly. I believe the results of the comparisons would show people that the safest thing to do is to NOT leave their transportation in their own incapable hands, but rather leave it to the profesionals. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 18:56:19 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:56:19 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: <20071022184400.GN4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> <20071022184400.GN4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710221156w301e7a9freffe4bc70ad362@mail.gmail.com> On 10/22/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > A big part of the problem is that they included general aviation (as in > private pilots) in the data. > > What you really want to do is compare: > Commercial planes to other methods of commercial/public transit > > Commercial planes against private people in their own cars > > Commercial/public transit compared to people in their own cars > > Private pilots compared to private cars Wonderful points - hopefully future research will take them into account! > Many private pilots do stupid things, just like many drivers of cars do > stupid things (as anyone that has been on the road lately knows). > Unfortunately when you do something stupid in a small plane, it is > likely to go worse than doing something stupid in a car. Agreed - and having watched, from a GO bus, drivers on the QEW eating *bowls of cereal* and *doing their makeup* while they drive, doubly-so! (Capital G-Word)-help us if Pilots are doing these things! > The people flying the commercial planes are much more trained, have > better equipment, and have more than one person to deal with the > situation. > > So if you compare commercial flying to driving in your own car, I am > sure the commercial plane wins on safety record. If you compare all > flying to all driving, then the flying probably looses quite badly. > > I believe the results of the comparisons would show people that the safest > thing to do is to NOT leave their transportation in their own incapable > hands, but rather leave it to the profesionals. :) I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, after reading the article, I'm left with the suspicion that most of the problems discovered by NASA's survey is _not with the pilot_ but rather with the support personnel/systems. Personally, I'm deathly afraid of heights. In the past I have fought this, mentally, with exactly your argument. They're professionals. My trouble starts when the professionals start talking about the problems, but the "officials" (er, experts rather -- I respect NASA for it's history and it's aerospace efforts) refuse to make study results public. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 18:58:46 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:58:46 +0000 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: <20071022141106.4e1cb8aa-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> <20071022141106.4e1cb8aa@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: On 10/22/07, JoeHill wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > > Flying in the face of conventional wisdom - and partially relevant to > > the thread "Geek woman news story of possible interest..."[1] is this > > CNN article: > > > > "NASA refuses to disclose air safety survey" > > http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22/nasa.air.safety.ap/index.html > > > > While this isn't related to terrorism, I still think it has some > > repercussions as regards to the general usage of aircraft for transit. > > In particular, this quote scares the crap outta me[2]: > > > > 'A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, > > said revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in > > airlines and affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the > > survey results "present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of > > the U.S. commercial aviation industry."' > > Gee, I thought that capitalism encouraged the free exchange of ideas ;) Hmm... Ownership of capital; implies existence of some free exchange of *prices* on markets, but does not seem to imply anything about "free exchange of ideas." At any rate, our society certainly does not behave anywhere vaguely like one would that deeply believed in capitalism. Instead, it clearly demonstrates that all of the powerful players believe in the value of power, which doesn't differ too much from most sorts of historical regimes... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:57:34 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:57:34 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> <20071022141106.4e1cb8aa@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710221257g5560951bgb49486490d025943@mail.gmail.com> On 10/22/07, Christopher Browne wrote: > At any rate, our society certainly does not behave anywhere vaguely > like one would that deeply believed in capitalism. Instead, it > clearly demonstrates that all of the powerful players believe in the > value of power, which doesn't differ too much from most sorts of > historical regimes... IMO: Well said. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 20:04:52 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:04:52 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> Sorry for the cross-post; this is expected to be an informational message only. An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. It will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the language to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to get on-board early. http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/overview.pdf If you're interested in obtaining additional links/resources please contact me offlist. Thanks. - Scott. [1] http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/overview.pdf -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 21:55:31 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:55:31 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071022215531.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:04:52PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Sorry for the cross-post; this is expected to be an informational message only. > > An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. It > will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the language > to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to get > on-board early. Ehm, so what it might be implemented by microsoft in IE8 which is due around 2012 or so? Maybe they will do CSS2 while they are at it. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 22:41:47 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:41:47 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <20071022215531.GO4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071022215531.GO4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7ac602420710221541v7d217a7cs917e8d83a9efedc3@mail.gmail.com> On 10/22/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Ehm, so what it might be implemented by microsoft in IE8 which is due > around 2012 or so? Maybe they will do CSS2 while they are at it. :) Your cynicism is warranted, but ECMAScript is very useful outside the browser, too. I just finished reading the document that Scott linked to, and it seems like ECMAScript 2 will be an interesting language. The most exciting additions for me are multimethods (very reminiscent of Lisp, but the document compares it to Dylan, with which I'm unfamiliar), type annotations, and namespaces. It would be nice to have an IDE that can do code completion and refactoring on ECMAScript. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 00:24:36 2007 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:24:36 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710222024.36921.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 22, 2007 12:57:52 pm Alex Beamish wrote: > I've successfully used > > http://www.registeryour.ca/ > > for my .ca domains after my previous registrar disappeared without > (much of) a trace about 2 years ago. They seem to be well organized > and fairly efficient. > > Alex That's the same group as budgetnames.ca. They have a bunch of offerings with different (promised, at least) service tiers for different prices. So far I've had good luck with budgetnames.ca and registeryour.ca.... *crosses fingers* -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 00:39:41 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:39:41 -0400 Subject: printing problem (pdf) with HP Deskjet 5940 In-Reply-To: <20071022133006.GJ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071022133006.GJ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/22/07, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > PDFs just print like any other file for me (lpr somefile.pdf) using > cups. Thanks Lennart. That way it works! I do not need even to specify which printer to use (while there is some garbage around in configuarion files). Strange. It does not work though when printing from xpdf or other viewers, but i do not care anymore. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 02:02:41 2007 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:02:41 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <471D5641.2050309@pppoe.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > So, this is a dis-recommendation for budgetnames.ca - and probably, by > extension, arcticnames.ca, lowcostdomains.ca, and registeryour.ca, all > of which are run by the same group. There may be others. > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a .ca registrar they're happy > with? I would prefer a Toronto outfit, but since I now have a valid > credit card it's not a big issue. > I first registered my domain with register.ca. I moved to easydns.com and have no regrets. They are not the cheapest but I would recommend them. Their office is at 304A - 219 Dufferin St., Toronto but they list it as their mailing address. Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 03:05:30 2007 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:05:30 -0400 Subject: Domain Name Registrar Recommendations? In-Reply-To: <20071022154649.GA995-f3ydu6uS1R7I9rkgco+hXrUXFt3QzJ1Y@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280710220806m5a7c6646jb2bd7d4c80048791@mail.gmail.com> <20071022152600.GL4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071022154649.GA995@otter.int.linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <4386c5b20710222005r34a429c6ic2377eb5233a3a39@mail.gmail.com> > domainsat cost has always been good for me. I think you'd have to walk in > to Ottawa, in order to slap cash on thier counter, and I don't think > they're the /absolute/ cheapest, but I've a dosen domains with them and > thier service has always been excellent. > djp I'm right behind DJP: I've really enjoyed domainsatcost.ca. Easy to work with, great service when I've had issues, and the pricing is fine. I have about 25 domains with them, and it's easy to manage them all. Cheers, Aaron. -- Aaron Vegh, Principal Innoveghtive Inc. P: (647) 477-2690 C: (905) 924-1220 www.innoveghtive.com www.website-in-a-day.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 08:34:17 2007 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter P.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [OT]: What is this on Google Maps? References: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03@mail.gmail.com> <20071022161452.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Lennart Sorensen writes: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:59:15AM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > The recent thread on "Crap in Google Earth" (GE is interesting, but > > bloated and not particularly useful AFAICT) got me thinking about an > > "artifact" I discovered a few weeks ago in Google Maps while > > researching an article on Global Warming. > > > > I'm really not sure what it is, but I have a couple theories: > > > > - It's the largest "Golden Ticket" produced by Willy Wonka > > - It's the remnants of a _huge_ construction project from some ancient > > society in Greenland. > > > > Lol. At first I thought it might just be some imaging artifact - part > > of the satellite itself perhaps. Considering the scales involved > > though, I'm not so sure. Whatever it is, it _appears_ very large > > (approx. 40km long by 15km wide) and "emerging" from the ice. Looks > > kinda like an Construction-Orange I-beam. > > > > To check it out plug this into Google Maps: > > 70.546862, -40.067139 > > Looks like land mostly obscured by clouds. Of course some satelite > pictures have odd colour maps, so who knows what it really looks like. More exactly: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=& q=70.546862,+-40.067139&ie=UTF8&ll=70.547234,-40.067139& spn=1.672355,7.36084&t=k&z=7&om=1 How did you find this ?! ;-) Anyway the top-right side of the object is a clip between juxtaposed frames. The bottom seems to be normal yellowish orange ground clipped by a hole in the clouds. Maybe the ground color is not the normal one due to colorization. Peter P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 13:10:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:10:15 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano Message-ID: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had luck downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an iPod. I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several talented people helping me). This is a little more important because I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. I have a P733 with USB port. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 13:39:36 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:39:36 -0700 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471DF2B7.3070103-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 09:10 -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more > sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only > "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg > files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire > only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had luck > downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an iPod. > I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way > Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several > talented people helping me). This is a little more important because > I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. > I have a P733 with USB port. > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically -- not a nano, but i believe that most of the ipods handle the same way. if the ipod software gives you trouble, there's always Rockbox, which lots of peoplerecommend heartily. matt > Chris > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 13:58:22 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:58:22 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471DF2B7.3070103-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 09:10:15AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more > sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only > "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg > files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire > only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had luck > downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an iPod. > I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way > Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several > talented people helping me). This is a little more important because > I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. > I have a P733 with USB port. Get a $20 USB 2.0 card. The USB 1 port will make it painfully slow to load songs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 15:54:04 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:54:04 -0400 Subject: [OT]: Planes safer than cars? In-Reply-To: <20071022184400.GN4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221053v496c97cfg5805e4b10d0f5449@mail.gmail.com> <20071022184400.GN4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071023115404.68fff1c8@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 01:53:31PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > Flying in the face of conventional wisdom - and partially relevant to > > the thread "Geek woman news story of possible interest..."[1] is this > > CNN article: > > > > "NASA refuses to disclose air safety survey" > > http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/22/nasa.air.safety.ap/index.html > > > > While this isn't related to terrorism, I still think it has some > > repercussions as regards to the general usage of aircraft for transit. > > In particular, this quote scares the crap outta me[2]: > > > > 'A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, > > said revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in > > airlines and affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the > > survey results "present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of > > the U.S. commercial aviation industry."' > > > > [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/35517 > > [2] I personally don't fly very often, but through various FOSS > > communities, clients, family, etc. I know many that do. > > A big part of the problem is that they included general aviation (as in > private pilots) in the data. > > What you really want to do is compare: > Commercial planes to other methods of commercial/public transit > > Commercial planes against private people in their own cars > > Commercial/public transit compared to people in their own cars > > Private pilots compared to private cars > > Many private pilots do stupid things, just like many drivers of cars do > stupid things (as anyone that has been on the road lately knows). > Unfortunately when you do something stupid in a small plane, it is > likely to go worse than doing something stupid in a car. You mean like the geniuses in BC who let an 82 year old man fly his private plane? A year after he had already had an incident wherein he missed the runway on a simple approach? That could skew the data just a bit ;) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Zoidberg: "Talk to the claw." Bender: "Bite my collosal metal ass." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:10:57 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:10:57 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20071023121057.4abeb203@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Matt Price wrote: > On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 09:10 -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > > For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more > > sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only > > "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg > > files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire > > only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had luck > > downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an iPod. > > I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way > > Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several > > talented people helping me). This is a little more important because > > I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. > > I have a P733 with USB port. > > > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically -- not a nano, but i believe > that most of the ipods handle the same way. if the ipod software gives > you trouble, there's always Rockbox, which lots of peoplerecommend > heartily. Actually, I've been meaning to ask about this as well. I know that the iPods work great under Linux, but what about an iPod Video? Do the apps for managing an iPod also handle transferring mp4 files? I don't see anything in either gtkpod or yamipod for that. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Zoidberg: "Talk to the claw." Bender: "Bite my collosal metal ass." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 17:02:53 2007 From: asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Asaf Maruf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:02:53 -0700 Subject: Open source in schools Message-ID: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> What is the status of open source penetration in schools here in Canada. It is better to be exposed to open source at an early age. There are a number of options available like setting up school labs using LTSP. I think someone in Calgary is doing that. Secondly, with distributions like Edubuntu, Knosciences it is very compelling. As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. Asaf -- "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." - Richard P. Feynman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 20:02:10 2007 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. ^^ Is that the Royal We? Or the External We (ie, you guys)? This reminds me for some reason of my colleague's memo pad that says at the top 'I've got a good idea, you do this instead of me.' The trick to getting others involved in a project is (as Tom Sawyer points out in the fence painting episode) to make it look like soooo much fun that others will *want* to join in. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 20:32:34 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:32:34 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071023135822.GP4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 09:10:15AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more >> sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only >> "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg >> files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire >> only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had luck >> downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an iPod. >> I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way >> Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several >> talented people helping me). This is a little more important because >> I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. >> I have a P733 with USB port. >> > > Get a $20 USB 2.0 card. The USB 1 port will make it painfully slow to > load songs. > Do I assume that my USB port is /not/ 2.0? Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 20:57:59 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:57:59 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E5A62.1090607-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 04:32:34PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Do I assume that my USB port is /not/ 2.0? On a P3, yes that would be a good assumption. Some P4s had a mix of USB1 and 2 ports (SIS chipsets were notorious for doing that). I don't think I ever saw a P3 with USB2 ports built in. One way to check is run lsmod|grep ehci. ehci is the driver for usb2 ports, while usb1 ports use only uhci or ohci driver (depending on who made it). You can also tell from 'lspci'. For example here is the output on a VIA KT800Pro based board: 00:10.0 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) 00:10.1 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) 00:10.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) 00:10.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) 00:10.4 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB 2.0 (rev 86) It has USB 2.0, and uses UHCI for USB 1 compatibility. USB uses dual controller for USB2 ports, since that way USB1 devices can talk to a USB1 controller, while USB2 devices can talk to the USB2 controller. It also means if the OS doesn't have drivers for USB2 (EHCI) but does have USB1 drivers, you can still run everything, but all the USB2 devices drop down to USB1 speeds for compatibility with the old OS. The above list means the system has 4 USB root controllers (4 UHCI controllers in this case), each of which has 2 ports (root controllers tend to have 2 ports each), and then it has a USB2 controller on top of that to provide USB2 services to those 4 root controllers. Similar output on an i865 chipset system: 00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801EB/ER (ICH5/ICH5R) USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 02) 00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801EB/ER (ICH5/ICH5R) USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 02) 00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801EB/ER (ICH5/ICH5R) USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 02) 00:1d.3 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801EB/ER (ICH5/ICH5R) USB UHCI Controller #4 (rev 02) 00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801EB/ER (ICH5/ICH5R) USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 02) Same layout of ports as the other system. An older system I have looks like this (VIA KT133 chipset): 00:04.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 10) 00:04.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 10) Just 2 USB1 controllers on it (4 ports total). My mythtv box (Nvidia nforce2 chipset): 00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 USB Controller (rev a4) 00:02.1 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 USB Controller (rev a4) 00:02.2 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 USB Controller (rev a4) This one is actually less useful, given it doesn't tell you anything. It is actually 3 usb controllers (so 6 ports) and it does do USB2, although it does not present a seperate PCI device for that. ehci driver is loaded on it though. lspci -vv does however show them as OHCI and EHCI USB controllers. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 21:12:38 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:12:38 -0700 Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6@mail.gmail.com> My experience with this (working in a district that is greatly Linux and moreso over time) is that students and staff like it quite a lot in terms of speed and functionality compared to our locked-down windows stations, but that the transition is hell unless you do a really strong audit of your existing network/software infrastructure, and take a good look at software that doesn't have a linux/FOSS equivalent. Many of the schools here run on thin clients. They're nice to administer (central server), but lack of good backups may be the death of us in that arena (no server, no clients). The majority of common software is available to students/staff, they can login anywhere and access their files, and there are a lot of conveniences. We've definitely had issues with poor planning (aka it was oftimes crammed down people's throats without assessing the important windows-only software), poor implementation (daisy-chained 10/100 switches, no gig uplinks, servicing 50-100+ clients and one server), and miscommunication. It's a good way to give the techs white hairs (in my case, hair loss), and a very good way to sour staff on what might otherwise be a very positive IT environment. So my personal opinion is somewhat mixed. I still say that a Linux environment in education can be a great thing, but a poor implementation creates havoc and just turns people off on the whole concept. Things to consider: * Server power * Redundancy * Backup * Existing software * Existing hardware (compatability) * Network infrastructure (including wiring, plain Cat5 doesn't do gig very well) * Interface (KDE, gnome, etc) * Security (NFS = insecure, and many others) * Training * etc If looking to switch, it's also not a bad idea at all to get people started with cross-platform FOSS software, for example: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, GIMP, Blender, GAIM, most google stuff (somewhat), and others. It helped here at work, and also when I switched my grandparents over to 'nix from win2k, and my cousin from XP. It didn't hurt that my grandparents' "Hoyle Card Games" works nicely in wine, nor that my cousin finds Vista a more painful switch than Linux :-) On 10/23/07, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. > ^^ > > Is that the Royal We? Or the External We (ie, you guys)? > > This reminds me for some reason of my colleague's memo pad that says at > the top 'I've got a good idea, you do this instead of me.' > > The trick to getting others involved in a project is (as Tom Sawyer points > out in the fence painting episode) to make it look like soooo much fun > that others will *want* to join in. > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > http://www.syscompdesign.com > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > 647-839-0325 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 21:29:29 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:29:29 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071023205759.GQ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 04:32:34PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Do I assume that my USB port is /not/ 2.0? >> > > On a P3, yes that would be a good assumption. Some P4s had a mix of > USB1 and 2 ports (SIS chipsets were notorious for doing that). I don't > think I ever saw a P3 with USB2 ports built in. > > One way to check is run lsmod|grep ehci. ehci is the driver for usb2 > ports, while usb1 ports use only uhci or ohci driver (depending on who > made it). > > You can also tell from 'lspci'. For example here is the output on a VIA > KT800Pro based board: > > 00:10.0 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) > 00:10.1 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) > 00:10.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) > 00:10.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81) > 00:10.4 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB 2.0 (rev 86) > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82815 815 Chipset Host Bridge and Memory Controller Hub (rev 02) 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82815 CGC [Chipset Graphics Controller] (rev 02) 00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 01) 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801BA ISA Bridge (LPC) (rev 01) 00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801BA IDE U100 Controller (rev 01) 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller #1 (rev 01) 00:1f.5 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM AC'97 Audio Controller (rev 01) 02:08.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM Ethernet Controller (rev 01) 02:0a.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Audigy (rev 03) 02:0a.2 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Creative Labs SB Audigy FireWire Port (rev 01) I guess my "rev 01" means USB 1.0? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 21:53:08 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:53:08 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E67B9.1050006-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 05:29:29PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci > 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82815 815 Chipset Host Bridge and > Memory Controller Hub (rev 02) > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82815 CGC [Chipset > Graphics Controller] (rev 02) > 00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 01) > 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801BA ISA Bridge (LPC) (rev 01) > 00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801BA IDE U100 Controller > (rev 01) > 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller #1 > (rev 01) > 00:1f.5 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM AC'97 > Audio Controller (rev 01) > 02:08.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM > Ethernet Controller (rev 01) > 02:0a.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Audigy (rev 03) > 02:0a.2 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Creative Labs SB Audigy FireWire Port (rev 01) > > I guess my "rev 01" means USB 1.0? No, that's the chip revision. But perhaps if you do lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 it will say UHCI or EHCI. As far as I remember the i815 chipset did not have USB2. I think it wasn't until the 830 or 845 intel added that. According to the intel specs the chipset has 2 usb ports, so I am sure they are usb1. I never saw a system with USB2 ports with less than 6 ports that I remember. By the time USB2 came, people wanted lots of them. 2 isn't a lot. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 22:08:44 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:08:44 +0000 Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/07, Asaf Maruf wrote: > What is the status of open source penetration in schools here in > Canada. It is better to be exposed to open source at an early age. > There are a number of options available like setting up school labs > using LTSP. I think someone in Calgary is doing that. Secondly, with > distributions like Edubuntu, Knosciences it is very compelling. > > As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. There's not a lot of this sort of penetration; curriculum tends to be dictated by the provincial Ministry of Education, and they have been pretty heavily lobbied by Microsoft. It's an interesting matter; there are possibilities. If you want to volunteer to help with this, that would be a good thing. I'd suggest asking around to see if others have done some relevant work and made relevant contacts that you could help with. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 22:58:37 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:58:37 -0400 Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <471E7C9D.5000303@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/23/07, Asaf Maruf wrote: > >> What is the status of open source penetration in schools here in >> Canada. It is better to be exposed to open source at an early age. >> There are a number of options available like setting up school labs >> using LTSP. I think someone in Calgary is doing that. Secondly, with >> distributions like Edubuntu, Knosciences it is very compelling. >> >> As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. >> > > There's not a lot of this sort of penetration; curriculum tends to be > dictated by the provincial Ministry of Education, and they have been > pretty heavily lobbied by Microsoft. > The schools are supposed to be using StarOffice. http://www.canopener.ca/article.php?story=158&mode=print -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:10:31 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:10:31 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071023215308.GR4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 05:29:29PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci >> 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82815 815 Chipset Host Bridge and >> Memory Controller Hub (rev 02) >> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82815 CGC [Chipset >> Graphics Controller] (rev 02) >> 00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 01) >> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801BA ISA Bridge (LPC) (rev 01) >> 00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801BA IDE U100 Controller >> (rev 01) >> 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller #1 >> (rev 01) >> 00:1f.5 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM AC'97 >> Audio Controller (rev 01) >> 02:08.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM >> Ethernet Controller (rev 01) >> 02:0a.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Audigy (rev 03) >> 02:0a.2 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Creative Labs SB Audigy FireWire Port (rev 01) >> >> I guess my "rev 01" means USB 1.0? >> > > No, that's the chip revision. But perhaps if you do lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 > it will say UHCI or EHCI. [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller #1 (rev 01) (prog-if 00 [UHCI]) Subsystem: Intel Corporation Unknown device 2411 Control: I/O+ Mem- BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- Status: Cap- 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort- SERR- Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:30:03 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:30:03 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:04:52PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote > > An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. It > will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the language > to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to get > on-board early. > > http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/overview.pdf I went and read the document... These guys have obviously never heard of text files. They insist on PDF. Not only that, they put in *HUGE* margins on all sides, and then scrunch all the text in. The net result is that the document is unreadable on my 24" 1920x1200 LCD monitor. I had to convert it to text and read that. Javascript has a checkered history. It started life as "Livescript", but was renamed to "Javascript" in a marketing move that was intended to piggyback on the early popularity of Java. Please go easy on people who confuse the two. The confusion was a deliberate, cynical, marketing strategy. Java started off as a full-blown programming language, development platform, and kitchen sink. It was complex, hard to use, and powerful. Because of the power, Java comes with a built-in sandbox as a security measure. Livescript (later to become Javascript) started off as a quick and dirty scripting language. Due to greater ease-of-use, it quickly replaced Java in webpages. Because the original Livescript had so little power, the authors decided that a sandbox was unnecessary. However, Javascript has gained a lot of features and power since the days of Livescript, and power. This has turned it into a security headache. I'm sure that programmers for the Russian Mafia are rubbing their hands in glee as they go through the list of features proposed for the new version. If you think drive-by-downloads are bad now, you ain't seen nothing yet. I will not stick my head in the sand and assume that linux is immune. What I worry about are the multi-platform scripting languages like Javascript and Schlockwave-Trash with its "Actionscript", as Adobe calls it. At least with Java, I have the option of not building it. Saving 3/4 of a gig of disk space is an added bonus. However, Javascript will be built in to all webbrowsers. The Noscript and Flashblock extensions for Firefox are going to be more necessary than ever. And before anyone gets up on the soapbox about not going to porn or warez or other evil websites, please read the article... http://security.itworld.com/4337/071022hack247/pfindex.html -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:40:03 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:40:03 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <20071023233003.GA31940-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664@mail.gmail.com> On 10/23/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > I'm sure that programmers for the Russian Mafia are rubbing their > hands in glee as they go through the list of features proposed for the > new version. If you think drive-by-downloads are bad now, you ain't > seen nothing yet. Can you explain why you think some new syntax is going to make the Russian Mafia more powerful? Javascript, as implemented in existing browsers, can already do everything described in that overview. The only new thing is built-in support for the features so that it's easier to use them. You're right that Linux-based systems are not immune--the whole point of "Web 2.0" seems to be that your underlying operating system is mostly irrelevant when everything you do runs inside a web browser. Running a Web 2.0-enabled virus/worm/trojan/whatever is therefore about equally likely to cause problems on all supported platforms. I don't see how a more expressive language can change that, though--it just makes the malware code shorter. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:53:05 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:53:05 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071023205759.GQ4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <471E8961.8080107@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 04:32:34PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Do I assume that my USB port is /not/ 2.0? >> > > On a P3, yes that would be a good assumption. Some P4s had a mix of > USB1 and 2 ports (SIS chipsets were notorious for doing that). I don't > think I ever saw a P3 with USB2 ports built in. > > One way to check is run lsmod|grep ehci. ehci is the driver for usb2 > ports, while usb1 ports use only uhci or ohci driver (depending on who > made it). > lsmod|grep ehci[chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lsmod|grep ehci ehci_hcd 35405 0 Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:54:44 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:54:44 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E7F67.3030905-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <471E89C4.5010201@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >> No, that's the chip revision. But perhaps if you do lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 >> it will say UHCI or EHCI. > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 > 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller > #1 (rev 01) (prog-if 00 [UHCI]) Looks like I'll need the USB 2.0 card... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 01:53:14 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:53:14 -0400 Subject: [OT]: What is this on Google Maps? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03@mail.gmail.com> <20071022161452.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071024015314.GA32124@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 08:34:17AM +0000, Peter P. wrote > How did you find this ?! ;-) Anyway the top-right side of the object > is a clip between juxtaposed frames. The bottom seems to be normal > yellowish orange ground clipped by a hole in the clouds. Maybe the > ground color is not the normal one due to colorization. Not the first time that Google has used pictures taken at different times. http://www.theregister.com/2006/08/25/google_earth_two_seasons/ shows a rather dramatic example. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 02:16:47 2007 From: asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Asaf Maruf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:16:47 -0700 Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49e826e90710231916q31b78b85t57c00543f4f603a2@mail.gmail.com> Someone in Calgary is doing LTSP deployments: (http://www.itinfusion.ca/linux/ltsp-converting-200-aging-pcs-into-screaming-thin-clients/) I think there are two implementations to consider. One is introducing a Linux distro like Edubuntu for primary schools. The students will learn simple stuff like math, spellings, art etc. The little ones get an introduction to open source and Linux and the school benefits by deploying a school lab at zero licensing cost. Some of the requirements as listed by Tyler may be valid like support, server sizing etc. However, the second implementation will be a full fledged LTSP deployment and all the requirements listed are very valid and proper planning, designing is to be carried out. In addition, it is important to revamp the existing network infrastructure to handle high network traffic. Also a detailed evaluation of existing applications be carried out to ensure percentage of success. This is where we (TLUG) can play a very positive role. Talking enterprise level deployment here. I agree that a Linux/open source project that doesn't do well is noticed by almost everyone. While critics tend to accept failures/shortcomings of *other* operating systems. In my last job our whole network was on LTSP since 2003 and never faced a problem in communicating with the rest of the world. Of course we were an IT company and could handle the issues that arose. It is a good idea as suggested in this thread to go with a first-level migration by introducing new users to cross-platform open source applications like Firefox, Gaim (Pidgin), OpenOffice, GIMP, Thunderbird etc etc. These are available at www.theopencd.org (i just got to know that the new name is http://theopendisc.com/ and http://softwarefreedomday.org/. And http://www.ttcsweb.org/osswin-cd/. Finally, LTSP project is being led by Jim who is a good friend and a great guy to work with. My 2c. Asaf On 10/23/07, Tyler Aviss wrote: > My experience with this (working in a district that is greatly Linux > and moreso over time) is that students and staff like it quite a lot > in terms of speed and functionality compared to our locked-down > windows stations, but that the transition is hell unless you do a > really strong audit of your existing network/software infrastructure, > and take a good look at software that doesn't have a linux/FOSS > equivalent. > > Many of the schools here run on thin clients. They're nice to > administer (central server), but lack of good backups may be the death > of us in that arena (no server, no clients). The majority of common > software is available to students/staff, they can login anywhere and > access their files, and there are a lot of conveniences. We've > definitely had issues with poor planning (aka it was oftimes crammed > down people's throats without assessing the important windows-only > software), poor implementation (daisy-chained 10/100 switches, no gig > uplinks, servicing 50-100+ clients and one server), and > miscommunication. It's a good way to give the techs white hairs (in my > case, hair loss), and a very good way to sour staff on what might > otherwise be a very positive IT environment. > > So my personal opinion is somewhat mixed. I still say that a Linux > environment in education can be a great thing, but a poor > implementation creates havoc and just turns people off on the whole > concept. > > Things to consider: > > * Server power > * Redundancy > * Backup > * Existing software > * Existing hardware (compatability) > * Network infrastructure (including wiring, plain Cat5 doesn't do gig very well) > * Interface (KDE, gnome, etc) > * Security (NFS = insecure, and many others) > * Training > * etc > > If looking to switch, it's also not a bad idea at all to get people > started with cross-platform FOSS software, for example: Firefox, > Thunderbird, OpenOffice, GIMP, Blender, GAIM, most google stuff > (somewhat), and others. It helped here at work, and also when I > switched my grandparents over to 'nix from win2k, and my cousin from > XP. It didn't hurt that my grandparents' "Hoyle Card Games" works > nicely in wine, nor that my cousin finds Vista a more painful switch > than Linux :-) > > > > > On 10/23/07, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > > As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. > > ^^ > > > > Is that the Royal We? Or the External We (ie, you guys)? > > > > This reminds me for some reason of my colleague's memo pad that says at > > the top 'I've got a good idea, you do this instead of me.' > > > > The trick to getting others involved in a project is (as Tom Sawyer points > > out in the fence painting episode) to make it look like soooo much fun > > that others will *want* to join in. > > > > -- > > Peter Hiscocks > > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > > http://www.syscompdesign.com > > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > > 647-839-0325 > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 477-1784 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." - Richard P. Feynman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 04:57:19 2007 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (asdf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E89C4.5010201-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471E89C4.5010201@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <325131.58613.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chris Aitken wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 > > 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller > > #1 (rev 01) (prog-if 00 [UHCI]) > Looks like I'll need the USB 2.0 card... > > Chris > I have a USB 2.0 card lying around unused... you're more than welcome to take it if you can pick it up from me. It gave me nothing but problems under Windows on a system with an ASUS CUSL2 mobo. Yet the same card (another one actually, I bought two at the same time) works perfectly in my Dell workstation at work. Go figure! Anyways, contact me off list if you are interested in the card. Cheers, Salman Ahmed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 06:01:48 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:01:48 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <325131.58613.qm-0TFTB1ODR9iB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <325131.58613.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710240201.53018.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 24, 2007 12:57:19 am asdf wrote: > --- Chris Aitken wrote: > > Chris Aitken wrote: > > > > > > > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 > > > 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB > > > Controller #1 (rev 01) (prog-if 00 [UHCI]) > > > > Looks like I'll need the USB 2.0 card... > > > > Chris > > I have a USB 2.0 card lying around unused... you're more than welcome > to take it if you can pick it up from me. It gave me nothing but > problems under Windows on a system with an ASUS CUSL2 mobo. Yet the > same card (another one actually, I bought two at the same time) works > perfectly in my Dell workstation at work. Go figure! Might be cheaper (or at least less hassle) to purchase one close to home than to get it shipped from Toronto to Timmins ;) Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 14:30:27 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:30:27 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <200710240201.53018.jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <325131.58613.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200710240201.53018.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <471F5703.2060209@rogers.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > On October 24, 2007 12:57:19 am asdf wrote: > >> have a USB 2.0 card lying around unused... you're more than welcome >> to take it if you can pick it up from me. It gave me nothing but >> problems under Windows on a system with an ASUS CUSL2 mobo. Yet the >> same card (another one actually, I bought two at the same time) works >> perfectly in my Dell workstation at work. Go figure! >> > > Might be cheaper (or at least less hassle) to purchase one close to home > than to get it shipped from Toronto to Timmins ;) > > Jamon > Timmins? That's way up past Steeles, IIRC. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 15:14:04 2007 From: maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Tyler Aviss wrote: > My experience with this (working in a district that is greatly Linux > and moreso over time) is that students and staff like it quite a lot > in terms of speed and functionality compared to our locked-down > windows stations, but that the transition is hell unless you do a > really strong audit of your existing network/software infrastructure, > and take a good look at software that doesn't have a linux/FOSS > equivalent. If you use thin clients doesn't that mean that you could leave the existing windows machines in place as a legacy during the transition so as to smooth the transition? I may not understand correctly what a thin client is, but I thought it meant that in the class-room you only need something like keyboard, screen, and good direct internet connection to the server? If so, couldn't you leave the existing computers place with their current operating systems and add something like a switch to share the monitors? Alex > > Many of the schools here run on thin clients. They're nice to > administer (central server), but lack of good backups may be the death > of us in that arena (no server, no clients). The majority of common > software is available to students/staff, they can login anywhere and > access their files, and there are a lot of conveniences. We've > definitely had issues with poor planning (aka it was oftimes crammed > down people's throats without assessing the important windows-only > software), poor implementation (daisy-chained 10/100 switches, no gig > uplinks, servicing 50-100+ clients and one server), and > miscommunication. It's a good way to give the techs white hairs (in my > case, hair loss), and a very good way to sour staff on what might > otherwise be a very positive IT environment. > > So my personal opinion is somewhat mixed. I still say that a Linux > environment in education can be a great thing, but a poor > implementation creates havoc and just turns people off on the whole > concept. > > Things to consider: > > * Server power > * Redundancy > * Backup > * Existing software > * Existing hardware (compatability) > * Network infrastructure (including wiring, plain Cat5 doesn't do gig very well) > * Interface (KDE, gnome, etc) > * Security (NFS = insecure, and many others) > * Training > * etc > > If looking to switch, it's also not a bad idea at all to get people > started with cross-platform FOSS software, for example: Firefox, > Thunderbird, OpenOffice, GIMP, Blender, GAIM, most google stuff > (somewhat), and others. It helped here at work, and also when I > switched my grandparents over to 'nix from win2k, and my cousin from > XP. It didn't hurt that my grandparents' "Hoyle Card Games" works > nicely in wine, nor that my cousin finds Vista a more painful switch > than Linux :-) > > > > > On 10/23/07, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >>> As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. >> ^^ >> >> Is that the Royal We? Or the External We (ie, you guys)? >> >> This reminds me for some reason of my colleague's memo pad that says at >> the top 'I've got a good idea, you do this instead of me.' >> >> The trick to getting others involved in a project is (as Tom Sawyer points >> out in the fence painting episode) to make it look like soooo much fun >> that others will *want* to join in. >> >> -- >> Peter Hiscocks >> Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto >> http://www.syscompdesign.com >> USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator >> 647-839-0325 >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 477-1784 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 15:57:44 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:57:44 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E7F67.3030905-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 07:10:31PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > [chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lspci -vv -s 0:1f.4 > 00:1f.4 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801BA/BAM USB Controller #1 > (rev 01) (prog-if 00 [UHCI]) > Subsystem: Intel Corporation Unknown device 2411 > Control: I/O+ Mem- BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- > ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- > Status: Cap- 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort- > SERR- Latency: 0 > Interrupt: pin C routed to IRQ 16 > Region 4: I/O ports at 2440 [size=32] So yes, UHCI is USB1. So max 12Mbit speed, which means a bit less than 1MB per second transfer speed to an ipod. That makes loading even an old 512MB ipod take quite a while. A USB2 PCI card is a cheap way to solve that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 15:58:53 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:58:53 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <471E8961.8080107-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E8961.8080107@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071024155853.GT4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 07:53:05PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > lsmod|grep ehci[chris at p733 ~]$ /sbin/lsmod|grep ehci > ehci_hcd 35405 0 Hmm, seems newer udev's load it all the time even if not needed. Somewhat annoying I guess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 16:59:05 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:59:05 -0700 Subject: Open source in schools In-Reply-To: References: <49e826e90710231002k2a58a475ued5ccb9cc63e1746@mail.gmail.com> <6685.99.232.68.237.1193169730.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0710231412q74945e52s3912095367f265b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710240959j2d65ab84k5d23bceb140cb3f5@mail.gmail.com> Yes, you could. Technically to do the following is not really "thin" (as the clients still have a hard drive), but if you wanted to do it the simple(r) way, then you could make a network-bootable kernel, stick it on the drive, install grub, and how options for either Windows or Networked-Linux in the menu.lst On 10/24/07, Alex Maynard wrote: > > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Tyler Aviss wrote: > > > My experience with this (working in a district that is greatly Linux > > and moreso over time) is that students and staff like it quite a lot > > in terms of speed and functionality compared to our locked-down > > windows stations, but that the transition is hell unless you do a > > really strong audit of your existing network/software infrastructure, > > and take a good look at software that doesn't have a linux/FOSS > > equivalent. > > If you use thin clients doesn't that mean that you could leave the > existing windows machines in place as a legacy during the transition so > as to smooth the transition? I may not understand correctly what a thin > client is, but I thought it meant that in the class-room you only need > something like keyboard, screen, and good direct internet connection to > the server? If so, couldn't you leave the existing computers place with > their current operating systems and add something like a switch to share > the monitors? > > Alex > > > > > Many of the schools here run on thin clients. They're nice to > > administer (central server), but lack of good backups may be the death > > of us in that arena (no server, no clients). The majority of common > > software is available to students/staff, they can login anywhere and > > access their files, and there are a lot of conveniences. We've > > definitely had issues with poor planning (aka it was oftimes crammed > > down people's throats without assessing the important windows-only > > software), poor implementation (daisy-chained 10/100 switches, no gig > > uplinks, servicing 50-100+ clients and one server), and > > miscommunication. It's a good way to give the techs white hairs (in my > > case, hair loss), and a very good way to sour staff on what might > > otherwise be a very positive IT environment. > > > > So my personal opinion is somewhat mixed. I still say that a Linux > > environment in education can be a great thing, but a poor > > implementation creates havoc and just turns people off on the whole > > concept. > > > > Things to consider: > > > > * Server power > > * Redundancy > > * Backup > > * Existing software > > * Existing hardware (compatability) > > * Network infrastructure (including wiring, plain Cat5 doesn't do gig very well) > > * Interface (KDE, gnome, etc) > > * Security (NFS = insecure, and many others) > > * Training > > * etc > > > > If looking to switch, it's also not a bad idea at all to get people > > started with cross-platform FOSS software, for example: Firefox, > > Thunderbird, OpenOffice, GIMP, Blender, GAIM, most google stuff > > (somewhat), and others. It helped here at work, and also when I > > switched my grandparents over to 'nix from win2k, and my cousin from > > XP. It didn't hurt that my grandparents' "Hoyle Card Games" works > > nicely in wine, nor that my cousin finds Vista a more painful switch > > than Linux :-) > > > > > > > > > > On 10/23/07, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> > >>> As a LUG i feel we should be more pro-active in this area. > >> ^^ > >> > >> Is that the Royal We? Or the External We (ie, you guys)? > >> > >> This reminds me for some reason of my colleague's memo pad that says at > >> the top 'I've got a good idea, you do this instead of me.' > >> > >> The trick to getting others involved in a project is (as Tom Sawyer points > >> out in the fence painting episode) to make it look like soooo much fun > >> that others will *want* to join in. > >> > >> -- > >> Peter Hiscocks > >> Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > >> http://www.syscompdesign.com > >> USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > >> 647-839-0325 > >> > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >> > > > > > > -- > > Tyler Aviss > > Systems Support > > LPIC/LPIC-2 > > (647) 477-1784 > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 19:36:51 2007 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter P.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [OT]: What is this on Google Maps? References: <99a6c38f0710220859y1a208a21ke44f8d9a09ae1e03@mail.gmail.com> <20071022161452.GM4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Peter P. writes: > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=& > q=70.546862,+-40.067139&ie=UTF8&ll=70.547234,-40.067139& > spn=1.672355,7.36084&t=k&z=7&om=1 There is another, black, missing part, south-west of that one. That one is regular shaped (Terra Ingooglita ;-) Peter P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sniffy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 00:37:08 2007 From: sniffy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris Gow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:37:08 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071023121057.4abeb203-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <20071023121057.4abeb203@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <200710242037.08611.sniffy@rogers.com> On Tuesday 23 October 2007 12:10:57 JoeHill wrote: > Matt Price wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 09:10 -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > > > For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more > > > sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only > > > "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg > > > files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire > > > only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had > > > luck downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an > > > iPod. I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way > > > Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several > > > talented people helping me). This is a little more important because > > > I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. > > > I have a P733 with USB port. > > > > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically -- not a nano, but i believe > > that most of the ipods handle the same way. if the ipod software gives > > you trouble, there's always Rockbox, which lots of peoplerecommend > > heartily. > > Actually, I've been meaning to ask about this as well. I know that the > iPods work great under Linux, but what about an iPod Video? Do the apps for > managing an iPod also handle transferring mp4 files? I don't see anything > in either gtkpod or yamipod for that. I've used amarok to transfer mp4 files. IIRC, amarok uses gtkpod as it's ipod library, so it should work. -- chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 11:22:16 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:22:16 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071025112216.GA2691@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 07:40:03PM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote > Can you explain why you think some new syntax is going to make the > Russian Mafia more powerful? Javascript, as implemented in existing > browsers, can already do everything described in that overview. The > only new thing is built-in support for the features so that it's > easier to use them. The mere fact that all these features are easier to use is part of the reason. Another factor is more possibility for obfuscation. When overloading can change what the same code means on-the-fly, it gets a lot harder to de-obfuscate malicious web pages for investigators to figure out where they're downloading trojans from. And on general principle, I am very uncomfortable with the concept of Joe Random Webmaster being able to download code to my machine and execute it. I go out of my way to *NOT* run a server. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 15:02:03 2007 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:02:03 -0400 Subject: test =please disregard Message-ID: <4720AFEB.1040609@totaltravelmarketing.com> test -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 15:03:37 2007 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:03:37 -0400 Subject: Linux on a stick In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10710170702k9075ccas51a7906e22d6878c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <47153996.80209@rogers.com> <1192580058.6178.15.camel@moonglow.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> <61e9e2b10710170702k9075ccas51a7906e22d6878c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4720B049.3060508@totaltravelmarketing.com> I use PCLINUX and even then I had to install using an iso I found on the, as it wouldn't load using the traditional way Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On 10/16/07, Andrew Cowie wrote: > >> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 18:22 -0400, James Knott wrote: >> >>> http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-usb-bar >>> >> This summer I found myself using a USB key to bootstrap a new laptop >> intended to run Gentoo. It worked surprisingly well. The end result was >> using something called extlinux as a bootloader for ext2 filesystems, >> and a Gentoo LiveCD image (which doubles as their install media). >> http://research.operationaldynamics.com/blogs/andrew/software/gentoo-linux/usb-bootstrap.html >> >> > > This past weekend I did a usb-boot install of Debian on a Thinkpad > X31... It was a bit of a challenge to correctly setup the usb-stick, > but I finally got it to work... > > Thanks for the heads-up about extlinux/syslinux! The docs on the > website describe a much more generic setup that I can use to boot and > install other *.iso images in the future... > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 15:39:24 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:39:24 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <20071025112216.GA2691-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664@mail.gmail.com> <20071025112216.GA2691@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710250839m603297c1n8e6a1b98f0af3b7c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > The mere fact that all these features are easier to use is part of the > reason. I suppose that's valid, but only one smart person has to figure it out and share it with the rest. I don't think it'll make that much difference. > Another factor is more possibility for obfuscation. When > overloading can change what the same code means on-the-fly, it gets a > lot harder to de-obfuscate malicious web pages for investigators to > figure out where they're downloading trojans from. I think this is probably false. I guess overloading can make the specified script more complex, but it _doesn't_ make it any easier to change meaning "on-the-fly". Functions are first class objects in all existing implementations of Javascript so it's trivial to reassign names to new implementations during execution. In fact, self-modifying code is the norm to get around browser incompatibilities. (You write a wrapper function that, in its first invocation, checks to see which browser you're in, replaces the definition of itself with a compatible version, and then invokes the compatible version to get the real work done. Further invocations of the same function skip the browser-detection by jumping directly to the compatible implementation.) > And on general principle, I am very uncomfortable with the concept of > Joe Random Webmaster being able to download code to my machine and > execute it. I go out of my way to *NOT* run a server. You make complete sense here, and you're certainly not alone in your concerns. A user who browses the web with scripting enabled is essentially walking around asking other people to take advantage of the opportunity to execute some code remotely. In other circumstances, it's called a remote execution exploit, or something. It _is_ a valid concern. I fail to see how the new language being proposed widens the opportunity for exploitation. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 15:44:06 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:44:06 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <200710242037.08611.sniffy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <20071023121057.4abeb203@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <200710242037.08611.sniffy@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071025114406.06c1701c@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Chris Gow wrote: > On Tuesday 23 October 2007 12:10:57 JoeHill wrote: > > Matt Price wrote: > > > On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 09:10 -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > > > > For Christmas, my daughter is ready for something a little more > > > > sophisticated than Bratz. I have my eye on the iPod Nano. My only > > > > "experiences" with .mp3 files are ripping (from CDs, not Internet) .ogg > > > > files and burning them to CDs, and a year or so ago installing limewire > > > > only to have it fail on boot. I want to know if any of you have had > > > > luck downloading .mp3 files from the Internet and getting them onto an > > > > iPod. I don't want to buy this thing only to have it go the way > > > > Starcraft-on-linux did for me (i.e unsuccessful even with several > > > > talented people helping me). This is a little more important because > > > > I'll be dropping a couple hundred bucks on it /before/ I know it works. > > > > I have a P733 with USB port. > > > > > > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically -- not a nano, but i believe > > > that most of the ipods handle the same way. if the ipod software gives > > > you trouble, there's always Rockbox, which lots of peoplerecommend > > > heartily. > > > > Actually, I've been meaning to ask about this as well. I know that the > > iPods work great under Linux, but what about an iPod Video? Do the apps for > > managing an iPod also handle transferring mp4 files? I don't see anything > > in either gtkpod or yamipod for that. > > I've used amarok to transfer mp4 files. IIRC, amarok uses gtkpod as it's ipod > library, so it should work. So worst case scenario is that I'd have to use Amarok. Much better than having to run iTunes under wine or something, apparently that's quite a hack job. Thanks! -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Leela: Bender, why are you spending so much time in the bathroom? Are you jacking on in there? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 16:11:06 2007 From: maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710250839m603297c1n8e6a1b98f0af3b7c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664@mail.gmail.com> <20071025112216.GA2691@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710250839m603297c1n8e6a1b98f0af3b7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/25/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > You make complete sense here, and you're certainly not alone in your > concerns. A user who browses the web with scripting enabled is > essentially walking around asking other people to take advantage of > the opportunity to execute some code remotely. Sorry to interrupt with a very basic unsophisticated question, but would protecting oneself amount to unchecking the enable Javascript box under preferences/content in firefox or is there is something you would recommend? Thanks a lot, Alex In other > circumstances, it's called a remote execution exploit, or something. > It _is_ a valid concern. I fail to see how the new language being > proposed widens the opportunity for exploitation. > > Ian > > -- > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 16:38:07 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:38:07 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - Official Overview In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071023233003.GA31940@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710231640q74216cech97aae2edcfbca664@mail.gmail.com> <20071025112216.GA2691@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710250839m603297c1n8e6a1b98f0af3b7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710250938y29b2c75ey884024df7731f47b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/07, Alex Maynard wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Ian Petersen wrote: > > You make complete sense here, and you're certainly not alone in your > > concerns. A user who browses the web with scripting enabled is > > essentially walking around asking other people to take advantage of > > the opportunity to execute some code remotely. > > Sorry to interrupt with a very basic unsophisticated question, but would > protecting oneself amount to unchecking the enable Javascript box under > preferences/content in firefox or is there is something you would > recommend? Thanks a lot, I think that would protect you, but it's a big hammer--you'd be blocking scripting on _every_ page. Depending on your level of paranoia, you might want to allow scripting on some "trusted" pages. I believe the NoScript plugin will do that for you, but I've never used it and besides Google, I wouldn't know where to find it. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:28:51 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:28:51 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? Message-ID: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> hi folks, i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of my main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get the message: No directory, logging in with HOME=/ if i try to ls /home/matt or cd /home/matt i get Permission denied. but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. plus i have work to do! thanks for your help, matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:30:36 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:30:36 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071024155744.GS4002-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > So yes, UHCI is USB1. So max 12Mbit speed, which means a bit less than > 1MB per second transfer speed to an ipod. That makes loading even an > old 512MB ipod take quite a while. A USB2 PCI card is a cheap way to > solve that. > Okay, I bought the iPod nano (4 GB) today. I didn't bother buying/installing the USB 2.0 card because three salesmen told me I only need the 2.0 if I want to load the iPod in 20 minutes instead of 45 minutes. I don't really care - I'm fine loading it in 45 minutes. Unless they have it wrong. Also, i see on the iPod package it lists "USB 2.0" under under "Requirements". So, do I /need/ USB 2.0 or not? Remember I'm in Timmins not Toronto. :) I plugged it in and it charged up in 1 1/2 hours (not the 3 hours it warned). I'm going to go through all the emails in this thread again to what my next step should be. An 'IPOD' directory showed up on my desktop. It contains four directories, none of which contain anything I can run or read by simply clicking on them. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:36:00 2007 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > hi folks, > > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of my main > user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get the > message: > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this from a > windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. plus i have > work to do! chmod u+x /home/matt -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:34:00 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:34:00 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <4721271C.40003-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <472127E8.9000804@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > > I plugged it in and it charged up in 1 1/2 hours (not the 3 hours it > warned). I'm going to go through all the emails in this thread again > to what my next step should be. In case it's tomorrow before I get back to this, is it okay to leave the thing plugged in all night? Will it overcharge or anything? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtgoguen at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 23:37:31 2007 From: jtgoguen at gmail.com (Joel Goguen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:37:31 -0300 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1193355451.6913.24.camel@hermes> Try running this command at the console: sudo chown -R matt:matt /home/matt/ Enter your password when prompted and then try logging in through the graphical interface again. On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 19:28 -0400, matt.price at utoronto.ca wrote: > hi folks, > > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of > my main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get > the message: > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this > from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. > plus i have work to do! > > thanks for your help, > > matt > > > -- Joel Goguen http://jgoguen.net/ The human mind treats a new idea the way the body treats a strange protein -- it rejects it. -- P. Medawar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: -------------- next part -------------- From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:44:02 2007 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:44:02 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > hi folks, > > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of my > main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get the > message: > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this > from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. > plus i have work to do! will sudo chmod a+x /home/matt help? Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 23:56:22 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:56:22 -0700 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1193356582.9023.1.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 19:44 -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > hi folks, > > > > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of my > > main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get the > > message: > > > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > > > if i try to > > ls /home/matt > > or > > cd /home/matt > > i get > > Permission denied. > > > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this > > from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. > > plus i have work to do! > > will > > sudo chmod a+x /home/matt > > help? > umm... yes... gah, sorry for the noise. even though i don't understand what it means for a directory to be executable, i would have thought i'd have tried this on my own. i can only plead in my defence that my 4-year=old was screaming his head off at me at the time... matt > Mel. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 00:12:35 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:12:35 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <1193356582.9023.1.camel@localhost> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <1193356582.9023.1.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > gah, sorry for the noise. even though i don't understand what it means > for a directory to be executable In case of directory x means access privilage, not execute privilage. Files have execute privileges but directories have access rights only. /zb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moseley at hank.org Fri Oct 26 00:43:08 2007 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:43:08 -0700 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20071026004308.GB31679@hank.org> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 07:28:51PM -0400, matt.price at utoronto.ca wrote: > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt Need "x" to access the directory. Maybe: chmod 755 /home/matt -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 00:43:19 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:43:19 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <47213827.40905@rogers.com> matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > hi folks, > > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of > my main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get > the message: > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this > from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. > plus i have work to do! > Directories need the execute "x" bit set to list the files. For example, my home directory shows drwxr-xr-x. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 00:45:33 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:45:33 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <1193356582.9023.1.camel@localhost> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <1193356582.9023.1.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <472138AD.8010806@rogers.com> Matt Price wrote: > On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 19:44 -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > >> matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >>> hi folks, >>> >>> i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of my >>> main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a >>> less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get the >>> message: >>> >>> No directory, logging in with HOME=/ >>> >>> if i try to >>> ls /home/matt >>> or >>> cd /home/matt >>> i get >>> Permission denied. >>> >>> but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows >>> >>> drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt >>> >>> doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this >>> from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. >>> plus i have work to do! >>> >> will >> >> sudo chmod a+x /home/matt >> >> help? >> >> > umm... yes... > > gah, sorry for the noise. even though i don't understand what it means > for a directory to be executable, i would have thought i'd have tried > this on my own. i can only plead in my defence that my 4-year=old was > screaming his head off at me at the time... > He was probably telling you to set the execute bit. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 01:12:28 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:12:28 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <47213827.40905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: > Directories need the execute "x" bit set to list the files. For > example, my home directory shows drwxr-xr-x. Which is, I believe, not rather good. It is not business of Group or Others to list your personal files. I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ But than, mayb,e some programs would stop to work... zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 01:36:57 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:36:57 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/07, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would > think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ > > But than, mayb,e some programs would stop to work... I had those permissions set on my home directories and everything was working fine until I wanted to host some web content from ~/public_html. Then I had to let Apache have execute permissions on ~ and ~/public_html. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 02:17:19 2007 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:17:19 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: RTFM. On 10/25/07, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/25/07, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would > > think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ > > > > But than, mayb,e some programs would stop to work... > > I had those permissions set on my home directories and everything was > working fine until I wanted to host some web content from > ~/public_html. Then I had to let Apache have execute permissions on ~ > and ~/public_html. > > Ian > > -- > Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? > Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 03:48:46 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:48:46 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/07, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > RTFM. That was unexpected. Which of all the fine manuals are you suggesting I read? Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 05:03:48 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:03:48 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <4721271C.40003-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071026010348.23ba4f56@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > So yes, UHCI is USB1. So max 12Mbit speed, which means a bit less than > > 1MB per second transfer speed to an ipod. That makes loading even an > > old 512MB ipod take quite a while. A USB2 PCI card is a cheap way to > > solve that. > > > Okay, I bought the iPod nano (4 GB) today. I didn't bother > buying/installing the USB 2.0 card because three salesmen told me I only > need the 2.0 if I want to load the iPod in 20 minutes instead of 45 > minutes. I don't really care - I'm fine loading it in 45 minutes. Unless > they have it wrong. Also, i see on the iPod package it lists "USB 2.0" > under under "Requirements". So, do I /need/ USB 2.0 or not? Remember I'm > in Timmins not Toronto. :) I have been using an old 512MB Shuffle, and when I originally had it plugged in to my P3 (USB 1), it took about 20 minutes just to fill _that_ up. 4 GB...that works out to...uh...almost 3 hours? On my newish machine with USB 2, it only takes a couple of minutes. The difference is _huge_. > I plugged it in and it charged up in 1 1/2 hours (not the 3 hours it > warned). I'm going to go through all the emails in this thread again to > what my next step should be. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: "In the event of an emergency, my ass can be used as a floatation device." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 11:24:46 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:24:46 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071026010348.23ba4f56-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> <20071026010348.23ba4f56@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <4721CE7E.203@chrisaitken.net> JoeHill wrote: > I have been using an old 512MB Shuffle, and when I originally had it plugged > in to my P3 (USB 1), it took about 20 minutes just to fill _that_ up. 4 > GB...that works out to...uh...almost 3 hours? > Okay - I'll probably get the card. I charged up the nano and now I've had a message on the screen all night: Writing data tot he device. There is data that needs to be written to the device Apple iPod before it can be removed. Please do notremove the media or disconnect the drive. I unmounted the directory that appeared on the desktop but the messae is still up. Nothing I do on theiPod brings up the Eject option. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 12:19:45 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:19:45 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <4721CE7E.203-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> <20071026010348.23ba4f56@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <4721CE7E.203@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/26/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > > > I have been using an old 512MB Shuffle, and when I originally had it plugged > > in to my P3 (USB 1), it took about 20 minutes just to fill _that_ up. 4 > > GB...that works out to...uh...almost 3 hours? > > > Okay - I'll probably get the card. > > I charged up the nano and now I've had a message on the screen all night: > > Writing data tot he device. There is data that needs to be written to > the device Apple iPod before it can be removed. Please do notremove the > media or disconnect the drive. > > I unmounted the directory that appeared on the desktop but the messae is > still up. Nothing I do on theiPod brings up the Eject option. You're connecting to a Linux box? I don't think you'll ever see the "eject" message. I never have. As long as you have unmounted the iPod (e.g. - the command "unmount" was run) successfully, then you should be in good shape anyways. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 15:02:25 2007 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:02:25 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280710260802la458800xb9f23aa6a0704908@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/07, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/25/07, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > RTFM. > > That was unexpected. Which of all the fine manuals are you suggesting I read? I'm not sure what manual he was referring to (Apache's? there may be an explanation there), but I do remember struggling through this issue a few years ago so I'll give a slightly more verbose reply. On a personal machine, having /home/user/ set to 755 (aka drwxr-xr-x) is probably not an issue (although I prefer to have everything as secure as possible so I go with 700). On a family machine, 700 is probably more desirable, but maybe not essential. On a shared/public machine, it's absolutely essential. So ... while "chmod 755 /home/user/" solves your apache problem, there's a more private solution if you prefer. Apache has, over the years, run as various different users. I think initially it was "nobody," then "apache," and now on the machine I'm using it's "www-data." It's not actually important which user it is, but you might be interested: you can find out by running "ps aux | less and searching for the apache or apache2 process. The most important thing about this is that the apache user (whatever it's name might be) is installed with minimal rights and isn't a member of any groups except its own. So how to let it have access to "public_html" without opening up all your files to everyone? "chmod 701 /home/user/" (or chmod o+x /home/user/") and "chmod -R 755 /home/user/public_html/" (or "chmod -R go+rx /home/user/public_html/") should fix things. Eh? What this does is means that anyone can "cd" to user's home directory - but they can't see a damn thing. They can "cd" into public_html where they have read and access rights, but they still have no access to your personal files or directories. If my explanation is unclear (or doesn't work!) scan down this page, it has some explanation too: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/webmonkeys/html_workshop/unix.html Hope this helps. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 15:08:04 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:08:04 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280710260802la458800xb9f23aa6a0704908-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280710260802la458800xb9f23aa6a0704908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710260808y5e21f467t33acc2e18a573da4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/07, Giles Orr wrote: > "chmod 701 /home/user/" (or chmod o+x /home/user/") and "chmod -R 755 > /home/user/public_html/" (or "chmod -R go+rx /home/user/public_html/") > should fix things. Eh? What this does is means that anyone can "cd" > to user's home directory - but they can't see a damn thing. They can > "cd" into public_html where they have read and access rights, but they > still have no access to your personal files or directories. That's what I did, actually, which is why the RTFM was unexpected, I guess. I only mentioned the Apache thing because it's the only application I've ever seen have a problem with home directories set to 700. Oh well, I guess it was miscommunication. Thanks for taking the time to give me a verbose reply. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 15:20:22 2007 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:20:22 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710252048u2c4f31fapab7fa3391cbbf818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/25/07, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> RTFM. > That was unexpected. Which of all the fine manuals are you suggesting I read? Indeed. On the broader question, I think it depends where you are and whom you're with. In places I've worked it's been no big secret that so-and-so had a file called plfgrh. These were development shops, with a whiff of skunk-works, and no-one could predict who wouldn't legitimately need to find something in a hurry. A recent gig was starting to see an access-control pinch between TIkiWiki's ACLs, PostgreSQL's ACL's, and an ad-hoc bunch of documentation PDFs sprinkled through some shared directories. Product information that would be useful to make some comprehensive development specs seems to be locked up inside the CRM. End rant. Desktop Linux, where there is only one live user may render these questions academic. Of course, with the Internet, no matter where you are you're with everybody. So ... Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 17:24:02 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:24:02 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> Matt Price wrote: > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically I tried installing it. I got this: [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again I copied that url into Firefox and sure enough I can't reach that site. Unable to connect Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at linuxdownload.adobe.com. * The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. * If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. * If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web. Is the site really down or is it just me? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 17:28:14 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:28:14 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <472223AE.3040905@chrisaitken.net> Matt Price wrote: > amarok manages my ipod unproblematically -- not a nano, but i believe > that most of the ipods handle the same way. if the ipod software gives > you trouble, there's always Rockbox, which lots of peoplerecommend > heartily. > I tried installing rockbox as well - same problem: [root at p733 chris]# yum install rockbox http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again [root at p733 chris]# ping http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml ping: unknown host http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml [root at p733 chris]# ping linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml ping: unknown host linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml [root at p733 chris]# ping linux.ca PING linux.ca (130.113.54.214) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from harwood.rhpcs.McMaster.CA (130.113.54.214): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=36.3 ms 64 bytes from harwood.rhpcs.McMaster.CA (130.113.54.214): icmp_seq=2 ttl=54 time=38.1 ms 64 bytes from harwood.rhpcs.McMaster.CA (130.113.54.214): icmp_seq=3 ttl=54 time=68.6 ms --- linux.ca ping statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 received, 0% packet loss, time 1999ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 36.371/47.725/68.667/14.827 ms [root at p733 chris]# ping linuxdownload.adobe.com/ ping: unknown host linuxdownload.adobe.com/ [root at p733 chris]# i can ping other sites but not linuxdownload.adobe.com Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 18:22:14 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > It is not business of Group or Others to list your personal files. > > I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would > think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ Really it is a personal choice. A lot of people have world readable and searchable home directories (the "world" in this case being the system) while others restrict access. It all depends on who the other users are and whether you trust them. On a home fileserver you probably trust other family members to access your files (imagine how annoying it would be to call your wife from work to ask her to access a file for you only to be told she's getting access denied). Similiarly in the work place other people in your group may need access to those files and maybe everyone on the system needs access. You can always make subdirectories more restrictive if you need to. > But than, mayb,e some programs would stop to work... If you don't make $HOME world searchable (a+x) then .plan & .project won't work in fingerd - but almost no one uses finger these days anyway. Similarly, if you keep your email in $HOME (eg, mbox) and you don't allow $HOME to be searchable then "Received mail" info available to other users (eg, in fingerd again) won't work either. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 18:23:42 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <7ac602420710251836j424af738rd566c5d7c6cecaee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Ian Petersen wrote: > I had those permissions set on my home directories and everything was > working fine until I wanted to host some web content from > ~/public_html. Then I had to let Apache have execute permissions on ~ > and ~/public_html. Hi Ian. You should find you only need to make ~ a+x while ~/public_html will need to be a+rx. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 19:23:00 2007 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:23:00 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <47213827.40905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <47223E94.5000407@ve3syb.ca> James Knott wrote: > Directories need the execute "x" bit set to list the files. For > example, my home directory shows drwxr-xr-x. You should use 701 as the perms for the home directory and public_html. You shouldn't give other users the ability to see what files you have in public_html. You might want to have html files available for private viewing which are not accessible by links from other pages. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 22:19:57 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 18:19:57 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4722680D.3070201@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> It is not business of Group or Others to list your personal files. >> >> I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would >> think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ > > Really it is a personal choice. A lot of people have world readable > and searchable home directories (the "world" in this case being the > system) while others restrict access. It all depends on who the other > users are and whether you trust them. On a home fileserver you > probably trust other family members to access your files (imagine how > annoying it would be to call your wife from work to ask her to access > a file for you only to be told she's getting access denied). > Similiarly in the work place other people in your group may need > access to those files and maybe everyone on the system needs access. > You can always make subdirectories more restrictive if you need to. > While it may not be an issue in a home envireronment (my dog & cat haven't shown much interest ), in a work environment, personal directories shouldn't be available to all by default. Shared group files should be in a directory created for that purpose. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 23:49:35 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:49:35 -0400 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> I came across this story today (via /.): http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/10/26/launch-pad.html My question is - What, if anything, could we (as citizens) do towards encouraging the Federal Gov't to invest in this idea? Petitions (online? written?), and Blogging come to mind; how much effect they'd have though seems a little hazy. I could see a Canadian Spaceport for Tourists generating a bunch of interest -- not to mention jobs or dollars. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 01:10:48 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <4722680D.3070201-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <4722680D.3070201@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, James Knott wrote: > While it may not be an issue in a home envireronment (my dog & cat > haven't shown much interest ), in a work environment, personal > directories shouldn't be available to all by default. Shared group > files should be in a directory created for that purpose. Hi James. I respectfully disagree that this constitutes an absolute rule, which is whar your email seems to suggest. As per my original post, there is room for various approaches. It depends on the culture of the company, the needs of the users, the security of the information and other factors. I think shared directories are fine when different people may be editing the file (but really there are better ways then). If a user is the sole author of a document I'm not going to mandate they move it to a shared folder to allow others to read it. Cheers, Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 07:44:27 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 03:44:27 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:04:52PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote > An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. > It will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the > language to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to > get on-board early. Not so fast. See the note on Slashdot Firehose at http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=350409 Since it's not too long, I'll quote it in its entirety... > "At The Ajax Experience conference, it was announced that an > ECMAScript4 white paper had been released. The implication being > that the white paper was the upcoming spec, which is untrue. Not to > mention this is not an official ECMA site, but a site run by only > some of the members from the ECMAScript4 group. These facts were > later revealed by another concerned ECMAScript4 member. He encouraged > any interested parties to read the proposed feature white paper, join > the discussion mailing list on that site, and share your opinions > for (or against) the desired features. This seems a little `cloak > and dagger` of those running the site, who desire serious changes > and are unfortunately Mozilla, Adobe, and others. The concerned > individual suggested that they simply create a new language with a > new name, as there are that many fundamental differences. Many of > us are very concerned that the language we love is being rewritten > under our feet." -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 14:47:16 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:47:16 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <20071027074427.GA7030-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710270747g62d7a5a4t6290339270df0a87@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:04:52PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote > > > An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. > > It will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the > > language to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to > > get on-board early. > > Not so fast. See the note on Slashdot Firehose at > http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=350409 > > Since it's not too long, I'll quote it in its entirety... > > > "At The Ajax Experience conference, it was announced that an > > ECMAScript4 white paper had been released. The implication being > > that the white paper was the upcoming spec, which is untrue. Not to > > mention this is not an official ECMA site, but a site run by only > > some of the members from the ECMAScript4 group. These facts were > > later revealed by another concerned ECMAScript4 member. He encouraged > > any interested parties to read the proposed feature white paper, join > > the discussion mailing list on that site, and share your opinions > > for (or against) the desired features. This seems a little `cloak > > and dagger` of those running the site, who desire serious changes > > and are unfortunately Mozilla, Adobe, and others. The concerned > > individual suggested that they simply create a new language with a > > new name, as there are that many fundamental differences. Many of > > us are very concerned that the language we love is being rewritten > > under our feet." Well now, isn't that interesting. I had a short conversation with Brendan Eich yesterday in which he made a comment about M$'s interest in ES4. I couldn't put it into context and figured to just wait and see if anything came of it. Certainly wasn't expecting this. I heard about the overview paper from the ES4 mailing list (which is also how I started communicating with Brendan, re a feature described in the overview) - very interesting indeed. I'll pass the Firehose link along to the ES4 list and see how/if it gets straightened out... -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 16:24:04 2007 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:24:04 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Globeandmail.com Customer Service: Technical Problem Message-ID: <200710271224.04846.glayng@sympatico.ca> I don't know how long the Globe and Mail has had videos on its website, but when I stumbled across one interesting looking one recently and tried to view it, it turned out to be in a certain Redmond company's proprietary format. Being a believer in Open Source, I bitched. And they were kind enough to respond. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: Globeandmail.com Customer Service: Technical Problem Date: Wednesday 24 October 2007 10:17 From: "WebSupport" To: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Hello Gary, We appreciate your concern, and are very aware of the issue with video delivery on none Windows system. We are currently working towards an acceptable cross-platform video delivery solution for globeandmail.com. We plan on delivering all video content via the Adobe Flash Player which roughly has 97% penetration on all internet enabled computers. This is a fairly involving initiative which will become reality in the near future. We appreciate your input and patience. Sincerely, Richard Websupport-tPyU6gFVlc87lZ9V/NTDHw at public.gmane.org www.theglobeandmail.com -----Original Message----- From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org [mailto:glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:07 PM To: WebSupport Cc: ~BUS GlobeWeb Subject: Globeandmail.com Customer Service: Technical Problem Comments : Why are you using proprietary formats for your video (WMV)? Do you just figure the 20% (and rising) of us using other operating systems just aren't G&M people? Name : Gary Layng Email : glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Phone_Number : Username : Browser/OS : Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.12) Gecko/20061220 Mandriva/1.5.0.12-2mdv2007.0 (2007.0) Firefox/1.5.0.12, IP Address : 70.51.144.205, ------------------------------------------------------- -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 19:00:43 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:00:43 -0700 Subject: boot from usb key? Message-ID: <1193511643.6664.7.camel@localhost> hi i'm trying to install ubuntu on a thinkpad x31, which doesn't have a disk drive. So i want to do it from a usb key, though i'd accept other methods if people think they're better. Anyway, I tried following the directions on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent but they are for the ubuntu live cd, which won't really run on this laptop with only 256M RAM. so i would like to similarly modify the old-fashioned "alternate" cd. I tried just modifying the instructions for the files that are found on the alternate cd, but didn't have much luck -- i did get the initial boot menu, but the kernel didn't seem to load properly & justl eft me with a blank screen. Anyway, i think the issue is that i need to know more about syslinux & the parameters that need to be passed to it on boot. does anyone have a solution for booting a simple ubuntu installer via usb? and/or, can anyone explain more about the differences between syslinux and isolinux & why/how the usb drive needs to differ from a cd? Thanks as always for your expertise, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 19:26:21 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell In-Reply-To: <20071008221151.GA23145-LMpBBneordZSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h@public.gmane.org> References: <20071008221151.GA23145@amtoo.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: | Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:11:51 -0400 | From: Peter King | | On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 03:22:20PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | | > Today, and perhaps today only (I cannot tell for sure), Dell is selling it | > for $349, including shipping. It is one of their secondary items on | > today's installment of their 10 days of deals: | | I ordered one, and at the last stage it said that this offer expires | October 9th. So, today only. Act accordingly. Now they are down to $297.00 at Dell.ca (US$249 at Dell.com). I wonder if you can get a credit from them. Probably not :-( The reason is that the N810 has been announced (for November delivery?). Sounds nice: it adds GPS and a built-in keyboard. http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507075 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 27 19:40:21 2007 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:40:21 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <20071027074427.GA7030-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0710271240g1f5abb99k167a34c22ab8b9de@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:04:52PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote > > > An official overview[1] of "Javascript 2.0" was released today. > > It will likely be some months (at least) for this version of the > > language to show up in web browsers, but it might be a good idea to > > get on-board early. > > Not so fast. See the note on Slashdot Firehose at > http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=350409 There's a comment from Jeff Dyer (Adobe) at that link now. There's also some interesting discussion starting on the list. The thread's archived at: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es4-discuss/2007-October/001302.html -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 00:56:39 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NewTLUG follow-ups. Message-ID: <344487.53326.qm@web88213.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You will find some links that fill out my presentation to the October NewTLUG meeting here: newtlug.linux.ca/?q=node/47 Also a question came up regarding how far you could push MythTV for whole house video / audio (with goodies like security cameras). Well, this person's set-up may not be the ultimate, but it is well up there: ultimatemythtv.wordpress.com/ Let's see, 4 satellite receivers, 8 close circuit video cameras, over 11 TB of storage... neat... :-) . Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 01:58:19 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT - Hardening a PC. Message-ID: <556120.51262.qm@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I was talking to some folks this past week about the possibility of putting four PCs into a homeless shelter. This may or may not happen (depends on everyone from the government grant money people to shelter staff...). Still I am in the process of getting my head around the issues involved in a project like this. The software is simple / easy, I would do a custom live CD, likely based on Fedora, as I recently wrote about Fedora based tools for live CD creation (and liked what I saw). This hardens the software end of things, and gets rid of an expensive / breakable part (the HD). The hardware questions are a little tricker, namely I gather theft is a BIG issue at the shelter. You name it, and it gets stolen I gather (past efforts along these lines I gather saw keyboards and mice stolen). So, how to harden a PC in a way the leaves it usable, but makes it effectively impossible to steal... One possible solution that I saw back at the 1993 World Science Fiction Convention in San Francisco, was wrapping a PC in a sort of video arcade like case. With thick (3/4" ?) plywood and a thick sheet of glass in front of the monitor the machine was HARDENED. The keyboard was partly wrapped in plywood such that without a key (and access to the inside of the machine) you could still type, but not get the keyboard out without breaking it. In other words a machine that short of a chain saw isn't going to get hurt. The machine I saw in San Francisco was deployed in some laundromats (makes sense, drop your clothes into a machine and then you have 20 minutes to kill, could do worse than dealing with e-mail :-) ). Question is, if the only way this set-up will work involves getting custom quasi-video arcade style cases is the only way to go, then I want to know that is what I am going to have to recommend. Or, are there solutions as good that don't require the services of a custom cabinet maker? Other issue, the one part the people using the machine will have to deal with is the keyboard / pointing device. Now, the San Francisco solution was mouse free (remember pre-1993 design, so text only menus...). Still there are keyboards with built in touch pads / trackballs / other mouse equivalents, but is that the best route? I assume the keyboard will have to be replaced from time to time due to wear and / or bodily fluids (ie: vomit... :-( ). So inexpensive and washable keyboards would also seem to be desirable, but again I would like ideas... Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 02:19:29 2007 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:19:29 -0400 Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell In-Reply-To: References: <20071008221151.GA23145@amtoo.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20071028021929.GB20304@amtoo.utoronto.ca> On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 03:26:21PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:11:51 -0400 > | From: Peter King > | > | On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 03:22:20PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | > | > Today, and perhaps today only (I cannot tell for sure), Dell is selling it > | > for $349, including shipping. It is one of their secondary items on > | > today's installment of their 10 days of deals: > | > | I ordered one, and at the last stage it said that this offer expires > | October 9th. So, today only. Act accordingly. > > Now they are down to $297.00 at Dell.ca (US$249 at Dell.com). I > wonder if you can get a credit from them. Probably not :-( > > The reason is that the N810 has been announced (for November > delivery?). Sounds nice: it adds GPS and a built-in keyboard. No credit for buying at the "deal" price. Oh well. I've looked at the specs for the N810, and I'm not sorry to have opted for the N800. For one thing, the keyboard is one of those attached thumb-keyboard devices that do nothing for me -- as a touch-typist I'd buy an external BT keyboard anyhow, so having a thumb keyboard built-in doesn't help me at all. Ditto GPS: nice for those who use it, but I generally know where I am ;-) I'd rather not have paid more than I had to for the N800, of course, but the N810 doesn't make me wish I'd waited for it. I think the N800 will suit my needs well: internet appliance that I can hook a BT keyboard onto and run vim in an xterm, for taking care of business. It'll replace my aging iPAQ (which also runs Linux) and, if I can figure out how to do simple voice recording, replace my Samsung YEPP mp3 player and voice-recorder, too. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 215 Huron Street The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A2 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 02:26:40 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:26:40 -0400 Subject: gmail imap, gpg, and procmailrc Message-ID: <200710272226.44122.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> I've been working away at setting up a custom procmailrc file to encrypt and send a copy of each email I receive to a gmail account I intend to use for redundant IMAP accessible storage (they're rolling that out on some accounts now). My .procmailrc looks like this: ############################### ## Dump spam before encrypting and forwarding ## ############################### :0 * ^X-Spam-Status: Yes .spam/cur ############################### ## f for filter (fifo), b for body only, w wait for filter ## ## check it's exitcode, fail if not successful; ## ## encrypt the body, then send a copy to gmail ## ############################### :0 * ^X-Original-To: me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org { :0fbw | gpg --encrypt -r 0x01234567 --armor --output - :0c ! me-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org } ############################### ## mv logchecks to logcheck/new, reduce clutter ## ############################### :0 * ^From: logcheck-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org .logcheck/new Everything is working, I've tested spamassassin with GTUBE and mail is successfully tagged and procmail moves it before the encryption kicks in. The encryption and forwarding works as well, I end up with an encrypted message in gmail's inbox. Accessing that via KMail, and KGPG's transparent decryption process kicks in. However, ideally what I'd like to do is store the local message unencrypted and just encrypt the gmail message. Reason being I want to use their free IMAP service, but not have that data mined for whatever purposes google sees fit. In fact, it is fine that I leave the copy on my server encrypted as well, but I've spent long enough fighting with this that I'd just like to know if it's even possible to encrypt the copy but not the local version. Thoughts? Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 12:16:32 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:16:32 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT - Hardening a PC. In-Reply-To: <556120.51262.qm-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <556120.51262.qm@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47247DA0.6040706@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > I was talking to some folks this past week about the > possibility of putting four PCs into a homeless > shelter. This may or may not happen (depends on > everyone from the government grant money people to > shelter staff...). > > Still I am in the process of getting my head around > the issues involved in a project like this. The > software is simple / easy, I would do a custom live > CD, likely based on Fedora, as I recently wrote about > Fedora based tools for live CD creation (and liked > what I saw). This hardens the software end of things, > and gets rid of an expensive / breakable part (the > HD). > > The hardware questions are a little tricker, namely I > gather theft is a BIG issue at the shelter. You name > it, and it gets stolen I gather (past efforts along > these lines I gather saw keyboards and mice stolen). > So, how to harden a PC in a way the leaves it usable, > but makes it effectively impossible to steal... > > One possible solution that I saw back at the 1993 > World Science Fiction Convention in San Francisco, was > wrapping a PC in a sort of video arcade like case. > With thick (3/4" ?) plywood and a thick sheet of glass > in front of the monitor the machine was HARDENED. The > keyboard was partly wrapped in plywood such that > without a key (and access to the inside of the > machine) you could still type, but not get the > keyboard out without breaking it. In other words a > machine that short of a chain saw isn't going to get > hurt. The machine I saw in San Francisco was deployed > in some laundromats (makes sense, drop your clothes > into a machine and then you have 20 minutes to kill, > could do worse than dealing with e-mail :-) ). > > Question is, if the only way this set-up will work > involves getting custom quasi-video arcade style cases > is the only way to go, then I want to know that is > what I am going to have to recommend. Or, are there > solutions as good that don't require the services of a > custom cabinet maker? > > Other issue, the one part the people using the machine > will have to deal with is the keyboard / pointing > device. Now, the San Francisco solution was mouse free > (remember pre-1993 design, so text only menus...). > Still there are keyboards with built in touch pads / > trackballs / other mouse equivalents, but is that the > best route? I assume the keyboard will have to be > replaced from time to time due to wear and / or bodily > fluids (ie: vomit... :-( ). So inexpensive and > washable keyboards would also seem to be desirable, > but again I would like ideas... > > Thanks. > > Colin McGregor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > The computer doesn't have to be physically accessible to a user. Why not just lock it in a cabinet with only the cables coming out. You can get security cables for the monitor and also lock down the mouse & keyboard cables, so that it's impossible to remove them, without breaking the cable. Since this will render the device useless, there's less temptation to steal it. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 14:44:58 2007 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:44:58 -0500 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071028144458.8F085854F4@sarg.ryerson.ca> For another datapoint, Richard Stallman had his home directory world writable I believe into the '90s partly as a political statement. What I have used a lot is group writable directories with the g+s bit set, which makes files/directories created to have the group of the enclosing directory. Combined with a umask of 002 (or 007) this means that things are very shareable among groups. This even works with your home directory since it is usually a private group.... except... ssh doesn't like $HOME or $HOME/.ssh writable by anybody except the owner, so I have my home directory set to 755 (except on machines that I share with 1000 students where it's 711), and most other directories set to 775. Locking your home directory has little relationship to the internet - unless there are users of you machine with easily guessable passwords - rather it's the other users on the machine. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 15:02:00 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT - Hardening a PC. In-Reply-To: <556120.51262.qm-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <556120.51262.qm@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | The hardware questions are a little tricker, namely I | gather theft is a BIG issue at the shelter. You name | it, and it gets stolen I gather (past efforts along | these lines I gather saw keyboards and mice stolen). | So, how to harden a PC in a way the leaves it usable, | but makes it effectively impossible to steal... I wonder about the message this sends to the people using the computer. (I almost said "users", but that term itself is a bit demeaning.) I'm sure that many of these people already have self-esteem issues. Overtly treating them as untrustable is probably bad for them. I'm not saying that you can trust them collectively. I am saying that you shouldn't broadcast your distrust. In fact, it might be possible to send them modest messages of trust by the right social design. For example, create a post of "monitor" for some of them to staff. This is not my area of expertise so my suggestions would be very amateur. There was a project in India where web access was provided, with no instructions, in a slum. The kids figured out how to use it on their own. /. etc. made a big deal of this a few years ago. I think that the hardware was embedded in a wall (think: ATM). http://www.google.ca/search?q=web+wall+slum+india&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a An anchored trackball, possibly with an anchored keyboard, is all that users need to touch. Neither is valuable so high-security anchors are not needed -- just some spares. Perhaps access for a USB key or an SD memory might evolve as a useful adjunct. Lots of people want to load MP3 players or store pictures. Maybe some of them use shelters. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 15:13:19 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:13:19 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071028144458.8F085854F4-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <20071028144458.8F085854F4@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4724A70F.1060308@rogers.com> Dave Mason wrote: > For another datapoint, Richard Stallman had his home directory world > writable I believe into the '90s partly as a political statement. > A lot of hackers, back in those days, didn't think anyone should have confidential information on their computer. They tended to consider computers "toys" for their personal benefit. > What I have used a lot is group writable directories with the g+s bit > set, which makes files/directories created to have the group of the > enclosing directory. Combined with a umask of 002 (or 007) this means > that things are very shareable among groups. This even works with your > home directory since it is usually a private group.... except... ssh > doesn't like $HOME or $HOME/.ssh writable by anybody except the owner, > so I have my home directory set to 755 (except on machines that I share > with 1000 students where it's 711), and most other directories set to > 775. > > Locking your home directory has little relationship to the internet - > unless there are users of you machine with easily guessable passwords - > rather it's the other users on the machine. > I'm sure on a home computer, parents might want to keep certain things confidential. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 15:33:08 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:33:08 -0400 Subject: Couple of bash questions Message-ID: <20071028113308.41011e26@node1.freeyourmachine.org> I'm pretty fond of automating things, and I've always been able to find little bits here and there that have made things quicker, but this one bugs me still, like my beloved 'rmsp' which removes spaces and capitals in filenames. 1. A lot of files I download have these annoying additions to their filenames like 'something.[someguysinitials].avi'. What I would like to do is remove the [someguysinitials] and either the preceding or following '.', however the batch rename in my file manager will not let me specify the '.' (it might if I knew how to use regex....). 2. I came up with this to do batch conversions of avi to mp4 using ffmpeg: for i in *.avi; do ffmpeg -i $i -f mp4 -vcodec mpeg4 -b 1200kb -qmin 3 -qmax 5 -g 300 -acodec libfaac -ab 192kb -s 320x180 -aspect 16:9 `basename $i .avi`.mp4; done; and it works, but it does give me some grief at the end: /home/joehill/bin/ipodenc_batch: line 2: syntax error near unexpected token `done' /home/joehill/bin/ipodenc_batch: line 2: `4; done;' I've adapted this from a line I use to do mp3 to wav using lame, so I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that the syntax for ffmpeg and lame are quite different (position of input files vs. output files), but I don't know enough, clearly, to see what exactly. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: Ooh, Big Pink. It's the only gum with the breath freshening power of ham. Bender: And it pinkens your teeth while you chew. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 15:54:40 2007 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:54:40 -0500 Subject: Couple of bash questions In-Reply-To: <20071028113308.41011e26-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071028113308.41011e26@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071028155441.1C3A983836@sarg.ryerson.ca> renaming away extra .blah before final extension: mv "$i" "`echo X $i|sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/'`" the \. means use the . as a .. resolving script problem: .... "`basename $i .avi`.mp4" The double quotes cause it to be treated as a single token. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 16:34:53 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:34:53 -0400 Subject: Couple of bash questions In-Reply-To: <20071028155441.1C3A983836-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071028113308.41011e26@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071028155441.1C3A983836@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20071028123453.1088354e@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Dave Mason wrote: > renaming away extra .blah before final extension: > mv "$i" "`echo X $i|sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/'`" Ah, okay, so I don't even have to bother with the special chars. > the \. means use the . as a .. Perhaps I am using this incorrectly, but I get: [joehill at node1:test>$]mv "$i" "`echo X $i|sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/'`" * mv: target `rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' is not a directory > resolving script problem: > .... "`basename $i .avi`.mp4" > > The double quotes cause it to be treated as a single token. Thank you very much. Just out of curiosity, though, why does this work without the quotes?: for i in *.mp3; do lame --decode $i `basename $i .mp3`.wav; done; -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: Ooh, Big Pink. It's the only gum with the breath freshening power of ham. Bender: And it pinkens your teeth while you chew. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 17:03:38 2007 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:03:38 -0500 Subject: Couple of bash questions In-Reply-To: <20071028123453.1088354e-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071028113308.41011e26@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071028155441.1C3A983836@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20071028123453.1088354e@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071028170338.BFBB883836@sarg.ryerson.ca> To debug problems like this use "set -x" which causes the shell to tell you every command it actually executes: ; set -x ; i='rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' + i='rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' ; touch "$i" + touch 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' ; mv "$i" "`echo X $i|sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/'`" ++ sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/' ++ echo X 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' + mv 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' rescue.avi ; set +x So... WFM. I don't know what your problem might be, but set -x will probably help you figure it out. ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 17:17:42 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:17:42 -0400 Subject: Couple of bash questions In-Reply-To: <20071028170338.BFBB883836-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20071028113308.41011e26@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071028155441.1C3A983836@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20071028123453.1088354e@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071028170338.BFBB883836@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20071028131742.33072a64@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Dave Mason wrote: > To debug problems like this use "set -x" which causes the shell to tell > you every command it actually executes: > > ; set -x > ; i='rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' > + i='rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' > ; touch "$i" > + touch 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' > ; mv "$i" "`echo X $i|sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/'`" > ++ sed 's/^X \([^.]*\).*\(\.[^.]*\)$/\1\2/' > ++ echo X 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' > + mv 'rescue.me.306.ws.dsr-dimension.[VTV].avi' rescue.avi > ; set +x > > So... WFM. I don't know what your problem might be, but set -x will > probably help you figure it out. ...not only that, but I just realized (and now from your response, confirmed), that I had not been specific enough in my original question. I only want to remove the one segment before the extension, so that something.something.[blah].avi would come out as something.something.avi. Oops. What I have discovered, though, is that I was not using the batch rename function in my FM correctly. It will not allow me to replace '[blah].', but it will allow me to replace '.[blah]', which works for me just fine. Thanks for the tips, much appreciated :-) -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Amy: "Bender, your beer belly's so big your door won't even close. And that doesn't even make sense." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 17:19:51 2007 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:19:51 -0400 Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell In-Reply-To: <20071028021929.GB20304-LMpBBneordZSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h@public.gmane.org> References: <20071008221151.GA23145@amtoo.utoronto.ca> <20071028021929.GB20304@amtoo.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4724C4B7.5020607@telly.org> Can these devices run Skype? Last I inquired there was a lot of Real Soon Now talk about Skype (and/or other SIP softphones) for the Nokia N series, but it never seemed to become real. Has that changed? Having a softphone capability (that could be combined with the builtin address book) might be a deal-breaker for me. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 21:45:18 2007 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:45:18 -0400 Subject: Nokia N800 Internet tablet on sale at Dell In-Reply-To: <4724C4B7.5020607-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20071008221151.GA23145@amtoo.utoronto.ca> <20071028021929.GB20304@amtoo.utoronto.ca> <4724C4B7.5020607@telly.org> Message-ID: <20071028214518.GA22721@amtoo.utoronto.ca> On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 01:19:51PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Can these devices run Skype? > > Last I inquired there was a lot of Real Soon Now talk about Skype > (and/or other SIP softphones) for the Nokia N series, but it never > seemed to become real. Has that changed? Having a softphone capability > (that could be combined with the builtin address book) might be a > deal-breaker for me. The N800 comes with Skype already installed, and has a built-in microphone and webcam for it. You also get a coupon for three months of free Skype-to-landline phone calls. If anything, support is probably better for the (announced) N810. It really is an astonishingly capable little device. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 215 Huron Street The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A2 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 21:52:38 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:52:38 -0400 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to Message-ID: <472504A6.2070601@alteeve.com> Hi all, I've got a silly question, but I can't seem to find the answer for it. A program of mine wraps text that is too long to display on one line of a user's terminal. I use 'tput cols' to get the number of characters per line, but I haven't been able to find out how many spaces a tab character expands to. Is there an equivalent command to 'tput cols' for getting the number of space a tab expands to? Currently I 'assume' 8 spaces, but I am sure that is not always the case... Thanks all! Madi PS - It's a perl program, in case perl has a specific command. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 22:15:01 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:15:01 -0700 Subject: boot from usb key? Message-ID: <1193609701.6704.0.camel@localhost> msg hasn't shown up after 36 hours or so, so resending... matt ------------------ hi i'm trying to install ubuntu on a thinkpad x31, which doesn't have a disk drive. So i want to do it from a usb key, though i'd accept other methods if people think they're better. Anyway, I tried following the directions on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent but they are for the ubuntu live cd, which won't really run on this laptop with only 256M RAM. so i would like to similarly modify the old-fashioned "alternate" cd. I tried just modifying the instructions for the files that are found on the alternate cd, but didn't have much luck -- i did get the initial boot menu, but the kernel didn't seem to load properly & justl eft me with a blank screen. Anyway, i think the issue is that i need to know more about syslinux & the parameters that need to be passed to it on boot. does anyone have a solution for booting a simple ubuntu installer via usb? and/or, can anyone explain more about the differences between syslinux and isolinux & why/how the usb drive needs to differ from a cd? Thanks as always for your expertise, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 22:33:03 2007 From: maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Any suggestions on exporting open office figure to eps? Message-ID: Hi All, I hope this question is not to far off topic. I am trying to get quality eps export of a figure in open office. So far, I can find anyway to export just the figure. I could export the whole page to PDF and convert from PDF to eps, but then I wouldn't know how to crop the eps file. I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions? Is there a way to do this in open office that I haven't thought of or another software I can transfer it to before exporting? Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 11:15:33 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:15:33 -0400 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to Message-ID: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> According to this document, the default no. of spaces for tab in Perl is 4 (line 141), but other references I saw in a cursory search for 'default number of spaces for tab in perl' showed that the default is 8 or that it is arbitrary. http://search.cpan.org/src/DMUEY/Text-InHTML-v0.0.3/lib/Text/InHTML.pm John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 23:42:27 2007 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:42:27 -0400 Subject: boot from usb key? In-Reply-To: <1193609701.6704.0.camel@localhost> References: <1193609701.6704.0.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10710281642l258c8d7hfba266abd92b8e8b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/28/07, Matt Price wrote: > > i'm trying to install ubuntu on a thinkpad x31, which doesn't have a > disk drive. So i want to do it from a usb key, though i'd accept other > methods if people think they're better. Anyway, I tried following the > directions on: Hi Matt... I just bought a x31 myself off ebay and installed debian using a usb stick. I don't know how transferable the steps taken are to a ubuntu install... but this is what I did: STEP 1 - configure the bios to support usb hd booting and place it before hd booting... and enable usb bios support STEP 2 - create a single FAT16 partition on the usb stick using cfdisk STEP 3 - grab some files... ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-i386/20070308etch1/images/hd-media/vmlinuz ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-i386/20070308etch1/images/hd-media/initrd.gz http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r1/i386/iso-cd/debian-40r1-i386-netinst.iso STEP 4 - on my debian system I used to prepare the usb stick... install these pkgs... apt-get install syslinux mtools dosfstools mbr STEP 5 - configure the usb stick (**with the assumption that the device is sda**) mkdosfs /dev/sda1 install-mbr /dev/sda syslinux /dev/sda1 mount -t msdos /dev/sda1 /mnt mv debian-40r1-i386-netinst.iso net40r1.iso cp -v initrd.gz vmlinuz net40r1.iso /mnt/ STEP 6 - create the 'syslinux.cfg' file on the usb stick with these parameters... default vmlinuz append initrd=initrd.gz ramdisk_size=12000 root=/dev/ram rw STEP 7 - save and unmount... sync umount /dev/sda1 STEP 8 - plug the usb stick into the x31 and reboot... when you see... MBR FA: ...hit 'a', which changes the prompt to... MBR 1234A: ...hit '1' and the debian installer starts... Hope this helps... Best of luck! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 23:54:51 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:54:51 -0500 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to In-Reply-To: <4725C0D5.3080301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/07, John McGregor wrote: > According to this document, the default no. of spaces for tab in Perl is > 4 (line 141), but other references I saw in a cursory search for > 'default number of spaces for tab in perl' showed that the default is > 8 or that it is arbitrary. > > http://search.cpan.org/src/DMUEY/Text-InHTML-v0.0.3/lib/Text/InHTML.pm Asking how many spaces a tab expands to on a mailing list is about as safe as prodding a sleeping dragon. Historically, the answer has been 8, but that's by no means definitive. I think the correct answer is "Whatever turns out looking right", which means the answer is arbitrary. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 28 23:56:11 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:56:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Any suggestions on exporting open office figure to eps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/28/07, Alex Maynard wrote: > > Hi All, > > I hope this question is not to far off topic. > > I am trying to get quality eps export of a figure in open office. > > So far, I can find anyway to export just the figure. I could export > the whole page to PDF and convert from PDF to eps, but then I wouldn't > know how to crop the eps file. > > I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions? Is there a way to do > this in open office that I haven't thought of or another software I can > transfer it to before exporting? Will GIMP let you crop the EPS file? -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 03:13:57 2007 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:13:57 -0700 Subject: boot from usb key? In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10710281642l258c8d7hfba266abd92b8e8b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1193609701.6704.0.camel@localhost> <61e9e2b10710281642l258c8d7hfba266abd92b8e8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1193627637.6680.8.camel@localhost> hi daniel, On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 19:42 -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On 10/28/07, Matt Price wrote: > > > > i'm trying to install ubuntu on a thinkpad x31, which doesn't have a > > disk drive. So i want to do it from a usb key, though i'd accept other > > methods if people think they're better. Anyway, I tried following the > > directions on: > > Hi Matt... I just bought a x31 myself off ebay and installed debian > using a usb stick. I don't know how transferable the steps taken are > to a ubuntu install... but this is what I did: > > STEP 1 > > - configure the bios to support usb hd booting and place it before hd > booting... and enable usb bios support > check > STEP 2 > > - create a single FAT16 partition on the usb stick using cfdisk > check (i used fdisk, is cfdisk better?) > STEP 3 > > - grab some files... > > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-i386/20070308etch1/images/hd-media/vmlinuz > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-i386/20070308etch1/images/hd-media/initrd.gz > http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r1/i386/iso-cd/debian-40r1-i386-netinst.iso > very helpful, thanks! > STEP 4 > > - on my debian system I used to prepare the usb stick... install these pkgs... > > apt-get install syslinux mtools dosfstools mbr > check > STEP 5 > > - configure the usb stick (**with the assumption that the device is sda**) > > mkdosfs /dev/sda1 > install-mbr /dev/sda > syslinux /dev/sda1 > mount -t msdos /dev/sda1 /mnt > mv debian-40r1-i386-netinst.iso net40r1.iso > cp -v initrd.gz vmlinuz net40r1.iso /mnt/ > excellent, check > STEP 6 > > - create the 'syslinux.cfg' file on the usb stick with these parameters... > > default vmlinuz > append initrd=initrd.gz ramdisk_size=12000 root=/dev/ram rw > check, see below > STEP 7 > > - save and unmount... > > sync > umount /dev/sda1 > > STEP 8 > > - plug the usb stick into the x31 and reboot... when you see... > > MBR FA: > > ...hit 'a', which changes the prompt to... > > MBR 1234A: > > ...hit '1' and the debian installer starts... > on my system the pen drive just booted right into linux without any prompts, and... left me where i'd been with my ubuntu attempt, at a blankc screen. but this particular set of instructions clarified something for me, i guess: now i understand that syslinux is just a bootloader! & so i tried what i would have done on grub, namely, added the parameters "vesa vga=771" to the append= line. and voila, on the next boot the old, familiar, blue debian installer screen was there. hooray! In the end i decided to install ubuntu on this machine again, though i'm sort of regretting it now -- but since i understand the process now i suppose i can reinstall as often and as absurdly as i like. > Hope this helps... Best of luck! yes, helped indeed. thanks! matt > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 03:42:08 2007 From: maynarda-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Any suggestions on exporting open office figure to eps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Alex Beamish wrote: > On 10/28/07, Alex Maynard wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I hope this question is not to far off topic. >> >> I am trying to get quality eps export of a figure in open office. >> >> So far, I can find anyway to export just the figure. I could export >> the whole page to PDF and convert from PDF to eps, but then I wouldn't >> know how to crop the eps file. >> >> I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions? Is there a way to do >> this in open office that I haven't thought of or another software I can >> transfer it to before exporting? > > Will GIMP let you crop the EPS file? Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give that a try. Alex > > -- > Alex Beamish > Toronto, Ontario > aka talexb > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 04:30:13 2007 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:30:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Any suggestions on exporting open office figure to eps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071029003013.6ec96cd8.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Alex Maynard wrote: > > Hi All, > > I hope this question is not to far off topic. > > I am trying to get quality eps export of a figure in open office. Alex, Look for pstoedit on Google. This converts PostScript files to all sorts of formats. The important file format if .fig. You can modify this using Xfig. You may have to mess with layers a bit to make everything display properly. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 05:08:28 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:08:28 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Touch sensors Message-ID: <3a97ef0710282208i164104b7h8e808852fdfd6929@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, One of my ongoing projects has been to wire up a few mini-ITX boards as "media control" PC's for around the house. Basically the idea is that the board connects to the main household server via PXE-boot, NFS-mount, etc. It will be attached to a lilliput touchscreen (for which the linux drivers work nicely, BTW). Now the end-plan for this is to move the touchscreen into a picture frame, with the rest of the wiring in-wall or just otherwise somehow safely hidden. What I would like to do is have a touch-sensor attached to either the picture frame or perhaps a little plaque attached to a wooden frame. Like a touch-lamp, the sensor would then turn on the screen. Depending on how fast I can get my boot-time going with openbios and "sleep" modes, the motherboard... although I may just opt to leave this on 90% of the time since via boards consume very little power. Anyhow, feel free to critique the idea as a whole, but my main question at this point is: where do I find the equipment needed to make a touch-sensitive metal surface for the frame/plaque. Any ideas? Thanks, TJA -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 09:27:24 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:27:24 -0400 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to In-Reply-To: <4725C0D5.3080301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4725A77C.5070207@alteeve.com> John McGregor wrote: > According to this document, the default no. of spaces for tab in Perl is > 4 (line 141), but other references I saw in a cursory search for > 'default number of spaces for tab in perl' showed that the default is > 8 or that it is arbitrary. > > http://search.cpan.org/src/DMUEY/Text-InHTML-v0.0.3/lib/Text/InHTML.pm > > John Hi, This isn't so much a perl question as it is a terminal question. The program is perl, but I am more interested in what the user's shell/terminal is doing. Ie: How can I ask the terminal, "Hey, how many spaces do you expand a tab to?". Like how you can use the shell program 'tput' to ask the shell how many columns a current line has. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 09:33:16 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:33:16 -0400 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to In-Reply-To: References: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4725A8DC.2090204@alteeve.com> Alex Beamish wrote: > On 10/29/07, John McGregor wrote: >> According to this document, the default no. of spaces for tab in Perl is >> 4 (line 141), but other references I saw in a cursory search for >> 'default number of spaces for tab in perl' showed that the default is >> 8 or that it is arbitrary. >> >> http://search.cpan.org/src/DMUEY/Text-InHTML-v0.0.3/lib/Text/InHTML.pm > > Asking how many spaces a tab expands to on a mailing list is about as > safe as prodding a sleeping dragon. Historically, the answer has been > 8, but that's by no means definitive. > > I think the correct answer is "Whatever turns out looking right", > which means the answer is arbitrary. Heh, vi vs emacs type question, eh? However, I am not asking what *should* it expand to, but rather what does the current shell/terminal/user use at the point in time when the program is run. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 11:23:00 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Touch sensors In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710282208i164104b7h8e808852fdfd6929-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710282208i164104b7h8e808852fdfd6929@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <940169.40769.qm@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > Hello All, > > One of my ongoing projects has been to wire up a few > mini-ITX boards > as "media control" PC's for around the house. > Basically the idea is > that the board connects to the main household server > via PXE-boot, > NFS-mount, etc. It will be attached to a lilliput > touchscreen (for > which the linux drivers work nicely, BTW). > > Now the end-plan for this is to move the touchscreen > into a picture > frame, with the rest of the wiring in-wall or just > otherwise somehow > safely hidden. What I would like to do is have a > touch-sensor attached > to either the picture frame or perhaps a little > plaque attached to a > wooden frame. Like a touch-lamp, the sensor would > then turn on the > screen. Depending on how fast I can get my boot-time > going with > openbios and "sleep" modes, the motherboard... > although I may just opt > to leave this on 90% of the time since via boards > consume very little > power. > > Anyhow, feel free to critique the idea as a whole, > but my main > question at this point is: > where do I find the equipment needed to make a > touch-sensitive metal > surface for the frame/plaque. > > Any ideas? I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. Simple on/off control or something a bit more complex. For simple on/off, and a metal plaque your talking the fodder of umpteen hundreds of introductory electronics books / magazines. For a level up from that and any surface, a number of years ago I read a construction article in a home automation magazine that had a small LCD module that sort of did a touch screen. What they did was mount a set of infrared LEDs and light sensors in pairs around the LCD module. Fingertip interrupting the beam told the automation system that the display was being touched and about over which area of the display was being touched. A bit of menu software and presto a home control system by fingertip. One point in the above that I recall them putting emphasis on was you want the light sensors at the top and the light sources at the bottom (to reduce false triggers by sunlight etc.. For a level above this, I'm not sure ... gut the likes of a Palm Pilot? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 13:42:19 2007 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:42:19 +0300 Subject: Gaim backup Message-ID: Hi pals, Is there a way one can back up logs (past chat conversation)? In another word, let say I have been using gaim for sometime. I recently bought another laptop and would love to move old conversations. Does someone have an idea how this can be done? Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 14:19:48 2007 From: myles-Ufssi81vwmMSKvlGVnxYRVaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:19:48 -0400 Subject: Gaim backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85A184A7-948D-4724-B3AC-154BA7AFF6F9@monkeyinyoursoul.com> I have the latest Gaim (Pidgin) and my logs are stored in ~/.purple/ logs/ I am assuming Gaim would save them in ~/.gaim/logs/ . You can then rsync them to you new laptop. I have never just move my logs before but I have moved the whole folder with success. On 29-Oct-07, at 9:42 AM, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals, > > Is there a way one can back up logs (past chat conversation)? In > another word, let say I have been using gaim for sometime. I recently > bought another laptop and would love to move old conversations. Does > someone have an idea how this can be done? > > Regards, > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 15:32:00 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to In-Reply-To: <4725A8DC.2090204-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> <4725A8DC.2090204@alteeve.com> Message-ID: | From: Madison Kelly | However, I am not asking what *should* it expand to, but rather what does the | current shell/terminal/user use at the point in time when the program is run. The standard behaviour of a UNIX TTY since I've first used it (1975) has been: tabs every 8 columns. The program expand(1) will expand tabs for you. It's documentation is crap. Also look at termios(3) where it describes TAB3 (the setting which causes the tty driver to expand tabs). The Linux man pages are a mess. I don't know where this should be documented. Somewhere in section 4. Existing man pages tell you to refer to non-existant pages. Yuck. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 15:38:39 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:38:39 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Touch sensors In-Reply-To: <940169.40769.qm-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710282208i164104b7h8e808852fdfd6929@mail.gmail.com> <940169.40769.qm@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710290838r17495de2t28f7b39c3fd0603c@mail.gmail.com> The touchscreen I already have (the lilliput). What I want to do is install a frame that will respond to touch by turning the display's power on or off. On 10/29/07, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > One of my ongoing projects has been to wire up a few > > mini-ITX boards > > as "media control" PC's for around the house. > > Basically the idea is > > that the board connects to the main household server > > via PXE-boot, > > NFS-mount, etc. It will be attached to a lilliput > > touchscreen (for > > which the linux drivers work nicely, BTW). > > > > Now the end-plan for this is to move the touchscreen > > into a picture > > frame, with the rest of the wiring in-wall or just > > otherwise somehow > > safely hidden. What I would like to do is have a > > touch-sensor attached > > to either the picture frame or perhaps a little > > plaque attached to a > > wooden frame. Like a touch-lamp, the sensor would > > then turn on the > > screen. Depending on how fast I can get my boot-time > > going with > > openbios and "sleep" modes, the motherboard... > > although I may just opt > > to leave this on 90% of the time since via boards > > consume very little > > power. > > > > Anyhow, feel free to critique the idea as a whole, > > but my main > > question at this point is: > > where do I find the equipment needed to make a > > touch-sensitive metal > > surface for the frame/plaque. > > > > Any ideas? > > I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. Simple > on/off control or something a bit more complex. > > For simple on/off, and a metal plaque your talking > the fodder of umpteen hundreds of introductory > electronics books / magazines. > > For a level up from that and any surface, a number of > years ago I read a construction article in a home > automation magazine that had a small LCD module that > sort of did a touch screen. What they did was mount a > set of infrared LEDs and light sensors in pairs around > the LCD module. Fingertip interrupting the beam told > the automation system that the display was being > touched and about over which area of the display was > being touched. A bit of menu software and presto a > home control system by fingertip. One point in the > above that I recall them putting emphasis on was you > want the light sensors at the top and the light > sources at the bottom (to reduce false triggers by > sunlight etc.. > > For a level above this, I'm not sure ... gut the likes > of a Palm Pilot? > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 15:42:19 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:42:19 -0400 Subject: Feedback needed Message-ID: <4725FF5B.2010902@meta-for.org> Hi. I am working on a small project that I see as a software catalog searchable by features and functionality. There is still lots of data to put into the database (working on it really hard), but I would like to get as much feedback as possible about the following topics: 1) what's people experience using the resource; 2) Accuracy of the information that is already there (need to do some extra work on it anyways) 3) Anything to add (categories, well lots of them are being added in any case; products: (see categories); functionality: i am working on few extra features) 4) browser specific bugs (main testing is done using firefox, but other browsers are tested as well, just not as frequently) 5) anything else All comments will be taken into account. Negative feedback is a feedback too, but please spare me from comments without explanation ( I mean, something like: it sucks. If "it sucks", what it should do not to "suck"). I know there is still lots of work to be done, but I just would like to direct my work properly. The URL: http://www.meta-for.org Thanks in advance. D -- http://www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 15:49:31 2007 From: dsong-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Daniel Son) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:49:31 -0400 Subject: Feedback needed In-Reply-To: <4725FF5B.2010902-ieW52yutvQFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4725FF5B.2010902@meta-for.org> Message-ID: <4726010B.7060106@meta-for.org> Forgot to mention. Registration doesn't add much, but it enables couple of options in search. -- http://www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog Daniel Son wrote: > Hi. > > I am working on a small project that I see as a software catalog > searchable by features and functionality. There is still lots of data > to put into the database (working on it really hard), but I would like > to get as much feedback as possible about the following topics: > 1) what's people experience using the resource; > 2) Accuracy of the information that is already there (need to do some > extra work on it anyways) > 3) Anything to add (categories, well lots of them are being added in > any case; products: (see categories); functionality: i am working on > few extra features) > 4) browser specific bugs (main testing is done using firefox, but > other browsers are tested as well, just not as frequently) > 5) anything else > > All comments will be taken into account. Negative feedback is a > feedback too, but please spare me from comments without explanation ( > I mean, something like: it sucks. If "it sucks", what it should do not > to "suck"). > > I know there is still lots of work to be done, but I just would like > to direct my work properly. > > The URL: http://www.meta-for.org > > Thanks in advance. > > D > > -- > http://www.meta-for.org - Open Source software catalog > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 16:22:34 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Touch sensors In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710290838r17495de2t28f7b39c3fd0603c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710290838r17495de2t28f7b39c3fd0603c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90363.78673.qm@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > The touchscreen I already have (the lilliput). What > I want to do is > install a frame that will respond to touch by > turning the display's > power on or off. Okay, so as ling as the picture frame is conductive (either because it is made of a conductive material (i.e.: metal) or because it got a conductive coating (i.e.: some types of metal paint)) this is a simple problem, you want a touch switch tied to the conductive part of the frame. Here is a website with 10 different touch switch circuits: www.discovercircuits.com/C/capacitance-sw.htm Likely one of the above could do the job for you, otherwise there are tons of other similar circuits out there... Do a goggle search on "capacitance switch" or "touch switch" Colin McGregor > On 10/29/07, Colin McGregor > wrote: > > --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > > > One of my ongoing projects has been to wire up a > few > > > mini-ITX boards > > > as "media control" PC's for around the house. > > > Basically the idea is > > > that the board connects to the main household > server > > > via PXE-boot, > > > NFS-mount, etc. It will be attached to a > lilliput > > > touchscreen (for > > > which the linux drivers work nicely, BTW). > > > > > > Now the end-plan for this is to move the > touchscreen > > > into a picture > > > frame, with the rest of the wiring in-wall or > just > > > otherwise somehow > > > safely hidden. What I would like to do is have a > > > touch-sensor attached > > > to either the picture frame or perhaps a little > > > plaque attached to a > > > wooden frame. Like a touch-lamp, the sensor > would > > > then turn on the > > > screen. Depending on how fast I can get my > boot-time > > > going with > > > openbios and "sleep" modes, the motherboard... > > > although I may just opt > > > to leave this on 90% of the time since via > boards > > > consume very little > > > power. > > > > > > Anyhow, feel free to critique the idea as a > whole, > > > but my main > > > question at this point is: > > > where do I find the equipment needed to make a > > > touch-sensitive metal > > > surface for the frame/plaque. > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. Simple > > on/off control or something a bit more complex. > > > > For simple on/off, and a metal plaque your talking > > the fodder of umpteen hundreds of introductory > > electronics books / magazines. > > > > For a level up from that and any surface, a number > of > > years ago I read a construction article in a home > > automation magazine that had a small LCD module > that > > sort of did a touch screen. What they did was > mount a > > set of infrared LEDs and light sensors in pairs > around > > the LCD module. Fingertip interrupting the beam > told > > the automation system that the display was being > > touched and about over which area of the display > was > > being touched. A bit of menu software and presto a > > home control system by fingertip. One point in the > > above that I recall them putting emphasis on was > you > > want the light sensors at the top and the light > > sources at the bottom (to reduce false triggers by > > sunlight etc.. > > > > For a level above this, I'm not sure ... gut the > likes > > of a Palm Pilot? > > > > Colin McGregor > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 477-1784 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:29:39 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:29:39 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20071029172939.GA27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 07:28:51PM -0400, matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > i've run into a weird problem -- i can't access the home directory of > my main user on a system running ubuntu gutsy. xsession fails with a > less-than-ten-seconds error, and when i log in at the console i get > the message: > > No directory, logging in with HOME=/ > > if i try to > ls /home/matt > or > cd /home/matt > i get > Permission denied. > > but if i ls -ld /home/matt it shows > > drw-r--r-- matt matt /home/matt > > doesn't that seem bizarre? anyway, it's a drag, and i'm writing this > from a windows computer in my house, and it'd terribly disheartening. > plus i have work to do! > > thanks for your help, It does seem bizarre that someone or something would remove the execute bit from the directory since a directory without eecute is nearly unusable (you can't list it's contents). Most directories should be rwxr-xr-x. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:33:36 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:33:36 -0400 Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071029173336.GB27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 09:12:28PM -0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Which is, I believe, not rather good. > > It is not business of Group or Others to list your personal files. > > I am not sure if Linux programs take things enougth seriously. I would > think that personal home directory should have persmissions drwx------ > > But than, mayb,e some programs would stop to work... Like user home pages in apache for example. Besides on most systems your home directory is part of your won personal group. I believe apache will put up with a home dir that is rwxr--r-- as long as public_html (or equivelant) is rwxr-xr-x underneath it. rwx------ won't work though since then it can't find the inoe for the public_html dir. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:35:01 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:35:01 +0000 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/26/07, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I came across this story today (via /.): > http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/10/26/launch-pad.html > > My question is - What, if anything, could we (as citizens) do towards > encouraging the Federal Gov't to invest in this idea? > > Petitions (online? written?), and Blogging come to mind; how much > effect they'd have though seems a little hazy. > > I could see a Canadian Spaceport for Tourists generating a bunch of > interest -- not to mention jobs or dollars. Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from the perspective of "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... Why should the Federal Government spend a lot of money to subsidize tourists? If they cannot or will not pay enough to attract the infrastructure, why should the government take on the risk? This would expressly be a case of "corporate welfare," of subsidizing a specific set of companies, and not for any value I can really see. When I lived in the US, I did see some of this sort of thing happening in the sports industry, where professional teams have gotten into the habit of moving to whichever city offers to spend the most on giving them a "free" stadium. It was (and is) a corrupt practice. The cities would then pass on the cost by imposing surtaxes on hotels and rental cars, and the fact that this would be paid almost exclusively by non-voters made the practice palatable to city councils and their voters. To be consistent with that practice, we might set up a "Canadian Space Tourism Program" where all foreigners visiting the country would be charged $10/day during their visit to help subsidize our space program. Better still: Impose an extra 1% GST on all foreigners in the country. They don't vote, so they can't meaningfully oppose it. It's all just a way of making it work... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:37:27 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:37:27 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <4721271C.40003-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071029173727.GC27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 07:30:36PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Okay, I bought the iPod nano (4 GB) today. I didn't bother > buying/installing the USB 2.0 card because three salesmen told me I only > need the 2.0 if I want to load the iPod in 20 minutes instead of 45 > minutes. I don't really care - I'm fine loading it in 45 minutes. Unless > they have it wrong. Also, i see on the iPod package it lists "USB 2.0" > under under "Requirements". So, do I /need/ USB 2.0 or not? Remember I'm > in Timmins not Toronto. :) Loading a 4GB ipod takes at least 4000 seconds on a USB1 connection, so more like 90 minutes rather than 20. Well if you fill it all up that is. > I plugged it in and it charged up in 1 1/2 hours (not the 3 hours it > warned). I'm going to go through all the emails in this thread again to > what my next step should be. > > An 'IPOD' directory showed up on my desktop. It contains four > directories, none of which contain anything I can run or read by simply > clicking on them. To load an ipod you have to use one of the programs that puts the files on it in the right place and updates the xml playlist files correctly to, such as amarok or whatever it is called. I don't have an ipod. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:38:09 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:38:09 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <472127E8.9000804-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <20071023135822.GP4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E5A62.1090607@chrisaitken.net> <20071023205759.GQ4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E67B9.1050006@chrisaitken.net> <20071023215308.GR4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <471E7F67.3030905@chrisaitken.net> <20071024155744.GS4002@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4721271C.40003@chrisaitken.net> <472127E8.9000804@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071029173809.GD27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 07:34:00PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > In case it's tomorrow before I get back to this, is it okay to leave the > thing plugged in all night? Will it overcharge or anything? No it will be just fine. After all it would be a stupid design if the thing could overcharge while you were trying to decide what songs to put on it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:39:30 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:39:30 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <472222B2.3000406-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:24:02PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Matt Price wrote: > > > >amarok manages my ipod unproblematically > I tried installing it. I got this: > > [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok > http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] > IOError: > Trying other mirror. > Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: > adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again > > I copied that url into Firefox and sure enough I can't reach that site. > > Unable to connect > Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at > linuxdownload.adobe.com. > > * The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again > in a few > moments. > > * If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network > connection. > > * If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, > make sure > that Firefox is permitted to access the Web. > > > Is the site really down or is it just me? Looks like a crappy mirror site. Pick another one I guess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:42:39 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:42:39 -0400 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071029174239.GF27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 05:35:01PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from the perspective of > "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... Ehm, last I checked Canada was pretty far north, and not very close to an optimal launch point for anything going into space. No point making space ports here. > Why should the Federal Government spend a lot of money to subsidize tourists? > > If they cannot or will not pay enough to attract the infrastructure, > why should the government take on the risk? > > This would expressly be a case of "corporate welfare," of subsidizing > a specific set of companies, and not for any value I can really see. > > When I lived in the US, I did see some of this sort of thing happening > in the sports industry, where professional teams have gotten into the > habit of moving to whichever city offers to spend the most on giving > them a "free" stadium. It was (and is) a corrupt practice. The > cities would then pass on the cost by imposing surtaxes on hotels and > rental cars, and the fact that this would be paid almost exclusively > by non-voters made the practice palatable to city councils and their > voters. > > To be consistent with that practice, we might set up a "Canadian Space > Tourism Program" where all foreigners visiting the country would be > charged $10/day during their visit to help subsidize our space > program. > > Better still: Impose an extra 1% GST on all foreigners in the > country. They don't vote, so they can't meaningfully oppose it. And the government would spend twice that much just to administrate the GST difference (never mind what it would cost the poor stores to deal with the crap). We could stop letting tourists get GST/PST refunds when they leave. That might actually make money and save money since you wouldn't have to administrate that silly system anymore. :) > It's all just a way of making it work... -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:44:36 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:44:36 -0400 Subject: boot from usb key? In-Reply-To: <1193511643.6664.7.camel@localhost> References: <1193511643.6664.7.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20071029174436.GG27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 12:00:43PM -0700, Matt Price wrote: > i'm trying to install ubuntu on a thinkpad x31, which doesn't have a > disk drive. So i want to do it from a usb key, though i'd accept other > methods if people think they're better. Anyway, I tried following the > directions on: > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent > > but they are for the ubuntu live cd, which won't really run on this > laptop with only 256M RAM. so i would like to similarly modify the > old-fashioned "alternate" cd. I tried just modifying the instructions > for the files that are found on the alternate cd, but didn't have much > luck -- i did get the initial boot menu, but the kernel didn't seem to > load properly & justl eft me with a blank screen. > > Anyway, i think the issue is that i need to know more about syslinux & > the parameters that need to be passed to it on boot. does anyone have a > solution for booting a simple ubuntu installer via usb? and/or, can > anyone explain more about the differences between syslinux and isolinux > & why/how the usb drive needs to differ from a cd? > > Thanks as always for your expertise, How old is the x31? Odd that it has no drive. Maybe an external USB DVD drive would be a handy thing to own then. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:42:45 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:42:45 -0400 Subject: yum Message-ID: <47261B95.4050003@chrisaitken.net> I'm starting a separate thread (from the iPod one) here for yum. Can yum break? [chris at p733 ~]$ su Password: [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/releases/7/Everything/i386/os/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 27 users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. Trying other mirror. fedora 100% |=========================| 2.1 kB 00:00 ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/updates/7/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 23 users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. Trying other mirror. updates 100% |=========================| 2.3 kB 00:00 http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again [root at p733 chris]# Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:44:33 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:44:33 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071029173930.GE27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:24:02PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Matt Price wrote: >> >> >> >>> amarok manages my ipod unproblematically >>> >> I tried installing it. I got this: >> >> [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok >> http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] >> IOError: >> Trying other mirror. >> Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: >> adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again >> >> I copied that url into Firefox and sure enough I can't reach that site. >> >> Unable to connect >> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at >> linuxdownload.adobe.com. >> >> * The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again >> in a few >> moments. >> >> * If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network >> connection. >> >> * If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, >> make sure >> that Firefox is permitted to access the Web. >> >> >> Is the site really down or is it just me? >> > > Looks like a crappy mirror site. Pick another one I guess. > Can you pick sites with yum. I just use yum as such: yum install whateverappiwant Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:46:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:46:15 -0400 Subject: yum In-Reply-To: <47261B95.4050003-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47261B95.4050003@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47261C67.70804@chrisaitken.net> Sorry - I guess we can discontinue this thread. I got a reply to this problem on the iPod thread - it's time-stamped three minutes before I created this thread. Chris Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm starting a separate thread (from the iPod one) here for yum. Can > yum break? > > [chris at p733 ~]$ su > Password: > [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok > ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/releases/7/Everything/i386/os/repodata/repomd.xml: > [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 27 > users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. > Trying other mirror. > fedora 100% |=========================| 2.1 kB > 00:00 > ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/updates/7/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: > [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 23 > users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. > Trying other mirror. > updates 100% |=========================| 2.3 kB > 00:00 > http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno > 4] IOError: > Trying other mirror. > Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for > repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again > [root at p733 chris]# > > Chris > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:53:02 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:53:02 -0400 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710291353.08996.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 29, 2007 01:35:01 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/26/07, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > I came across this story today (via /.): > > > > http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/10/26/launch-pad.ht > >ml > > > > My question is - What, if anything, could we (as citizens) do > > towards encouraging the Federal Gov't to invest in this idea? > > > > Petitions (online? written?), and Blogging come to mind; how much > > effect they'd have though seems a little hazy. > > > > I could see a Canadian Spaceport for Tourists generating a bunch of > > interest -- not to mention jobs or dollars. > > Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from the perspective of > "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... > > Why should the Federal Government spend a lot of money to subsidize > tourists? > > If they cannot or will not pay enough to attract the infrastructure, > why should the government take on the risk? > > This would expressly be a case of "corporate welfare," of subsidizing > a specific set of companies, and not for any value I can really see. Tourism is worth > $500 billion a year globally. So some short-term subsidies could end up being long-term investments in that regard. > When I lived in the US, I did see some of this sort of thing > happening in the sports industry, where professional teams have > gotten into the habit of moving to whichever city offers to spend the > most on giving them a "free" stadium. It was (and is) a corrupt > practice. The cities would then pass on the cost by imposing > surtaxes on hotels and rental cars, and the fact that this would be > paid almost exclusively by non-voters made the practice palatable to > city councils and their voters. > > To be consistent with that practice, we might set up a "Canadian > Space Tourism Program" where all foreigners visiting the country > would be charged $10/day during their visit to help subsidize our > space program. > > Better still: Impose an extra 1% GST on all foreigners in the > country. They don't vote, so they can't meaningfully oppose it. Those measures would not do much to attract tourists... Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:50:40 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:50:40 -0400 Subject: yum In-Reply-To: <47261C67.70804-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47261B95.4050003@chrisaitken.net> <47261C67.70804@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47261D70.1070603@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Sorry - I guess we can discontinue this thread. I got a reply to this > problem on the iPod thread - it's time-stamped three minutes before I > created this thread. Or maybe I /do/ need a separate thread. I'm having trouble with pirut (Add/Remove Programs) which seems to use yum: Component: pirut Summary: TB8f5a3431 yumRepo.py:749:_getRepoXML:RepoError: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/sbin/pirut", line 441, in main() File "/usr/sbin/pirut", line 434, in main pm = PackageManager(options.config, options.onlyrepo) File "/usr/sbin/pirut", line 61, in __init__ GraphicalYumBase.__init__(self, False, config) File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/pirut/__init__.py", line 124, in __init__ self.reset() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/pirut/__init__.py", line 223, in reset self.doTsSetup() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/depsolve.py", line 64, in doTsSetup return self._getTs() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/depsolve.py", line 78, in _getTs self._tsInfo.setDatabases(self.rpmdb, self.pkgSack) File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/__init__.py", line 521, in pkgSack = property(fget=lambda self: self._getSacks(), File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/__init__.py", line 381, in _getSacks self.repos.populateSack(which=repos) File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/repos.py", line 239, in populateSack sack.populate(repo, mdtype, callback, cacheonly) File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/yumRepo.py", line 142, in populate if self._check_db_version(repo, mydbtype): File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/yumRepo.py", line 199, in _check_db_version if repo.repoXML.repoData.has_key(mdtype): File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/yumRepo.py", line 753, in repoXML = property(fget=lambda self: self._getRepoXML(), File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/yum/yumRepo.py", line 749, in _getRepoXML raise Errors.RepoError, (msg) RepoError: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again Local variables in innermost frame: msg: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again self: adobe-linux-i386 e: failure: repodata/repomd.xml from adobe-linux-i386: [Errno 256] No more mirrors to try. > > Chris > > Chris Aitken wrote: >> I'm starting a separate thread (from the iPod one) here for yum. Can >> yum break? >> >> [chris at p733 ~]$ su >> Password: >> [root at p733 chris]# yum install amarok >> ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/releases/7/Everything/i386/os/repodata/repomd.xml: >> [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 27 >> users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. >> Trying other mirror. >> fedora 100% |=========================| 2.1 kB >> 00:00 >> ftp://mirror.cs.princeton.edu/pub/mirrors/fedora/linux/updates/7/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: >> [Errno 4] IOError: [Errno ftp error] 421 Sorry, mirror already has 23 >> users logged on. Try again in 10 minutes. >> Trying other mirror. >> updates 100% |=========================| 2.3 kB >> 00:00 >> http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno >> 4] IOError: >> Trying other mirror. >> Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for >> repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again >> [root at p733 chris]# >> >> Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 18:06:58 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:06:58 -0400 Subject: Finding out how many spaces a tab character is expended to In-Reply-To: <4725A77C.5070207-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4725C0D5.3080301@rogers.com> <4725A77C.5070207@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20071029180658.GH27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 05:27:24AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > This isn't so much a perl question as it is a terminal question. The > program is perl, but I am more interested in what the user's > shell/terminal is doing. Ie: How can I ask the terminal, "Hey, how many > spaces do you expand a tab to?". Like how you can use the shell program > 'tput' to ask the shell how many columns a current line has. Well 'tput it' returns 8 on my xterm, where it means 'initial tabs' which is what the "hardware" terminal will by default use unless told otherwise. Not sure how to detect current settings since I think the idea is the application should know what the tab settings are if it changed them and otherwise they should be what the default settings is. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 18:08:31 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:08:31 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47261C01.5030102-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071029180831.GI27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 01:44:33PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Can you pick sites with yum. I just use yum as such: > > yum install whateverappiwant On debian it uses the sites listed in /etc/apt/sources.list yum hadn't even been imagined when I gave up an RPM based distributions, so I have no clue where it keeps things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mimran-pghWNbHTmq7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 19:19:30 2007 From: mimran-pghWNbHTmq7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Muhammad Imran) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:19:30 -0700 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <20071029180831.GI27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071029180831.GI27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: You can put Yum repositories in /etc/yum.conf [baseurl=] Or in files named .repo in /etc/yum/yum.repos.d - Imran -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Lennart Sorensen Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 2:09 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: iPod Nano On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 01:44:33PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Can you pick sites with yum. I just use yum as such: > > yum install whateverappiwant On debian it uses the sites listed in /etc/apt/sources.list yum hadn't even been imagined when I gave up an RPM based distributions, so I have no clue where it keeps things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 21:20:20 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:20:20 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Touch sensors In-Reply-To: <90363.78673.qm-fjYszm/wOJWB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710290838r17495de2t28f7b39c3fd0603c@mail.gmail.com> <90363.78673.qm@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710291420t4ccc3bf2nd90cda109f6ae379@mail.gmail.com> Perfect, that's exactly what I was thinking of, though I couldn't remember the right name for the part. Sometimes it's just more helpful to ask your local **geeks than get blank stares from the Home Depot or even electronics-store staff. :-) Cheers, TJA **I include myself in that particular group, it's good to be a geek IMHO On Oct 29, 2007 9:22 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > > The touchscreen I already have (the lilliput). What > > I want to do is > > install a frame that will respond to touch by > > turning the display's > > power on or off. > > Okay, so as ling as the picture frame is conductive > (either because it is made of a conductive material > (i.e.: metal) or because it got a conductive coating > (i.e.: some types of metal paint)) this is a simple > problem, you want a touch switch tied to the > conductive part of the frame. Here is a website with > 10 different touch switch circuits: > > www.discovercircuits.com/C/capacitance-sw.htm > > Likely one of the above could do the job for you, > otherwise there are tons of other similar circuits out > there... Do a goggle search on "capacitance switch" or > "touch switch" > > Colin McGregor > > > > On 10/29/07, Colin McGregor > > wrote: > > > --- Tyler Aviss wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > One of my ongoing projects has been to wire up a > > few > > > > mini-ITX boards > > > > as "media control" PC's for around the house. > > > > Basically the idea is > > > > that the board connects to the main household > > server > > > > via PXE-boot, > > > > NFS-mount, etc. It will be attached to a > > lilliput > > > > touchscreen (for > > > > which the linux drivers work nicely, BTW). > > > > > > > > Now the end-plan for this is to move the > > touchscreen > > > > into a picture > > > > frame, with the rest of the wiring in-wall or > > just > > > > otherwise somehow > > > > safely hidden. What I would like to do is have a > > > > touch-sensor attached > > > > to either the picture frame or perhaps a little > > > > plaque attached to a > > > > wooden frame. Like a touch-lamp, the sensor > > would > > > > then turn on the > > > > screen. Depending on how fast I can get my > > boot-time > > > > going with > > > > openbios and "sleep" modes, the motherboard... > > > > although I may just opt > > > > to leave this on 90% of the time since via > > boards > > > > consume very little > > > > power. > > > > > > > > Anyhow, feel free to critique the idea as a > > whole, > > > > but my main > > > > question at this point is: > > > > where do I find the equipment needed to make a > > > > touch-sensitive metal > > > > surface for the frame/plaque. > > > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. Simple > > > on/off control or something a bit more complex. > > > > > > For simple on/off, and a metal plaque your talking > > > the fodder of umpteen hundreds of introductory > > > electronics books / magazines. > > > > > > For a level up from that and any surface, a number > > of > > > years ago I read a construction article in a home > > > automation magazine that had a small LCD module > > that > > > sort of did a touch screen. What they did was > > mount a > > > set of infrared LEDs and light sensors in pairs > > around > > > the LCD module. Fingertip interrupting the beam > > told > > > the automation system that the display was being > > > touched and about over which area of the display > > was > > > being touched. A bit of menu software and presto a > > > home control system by fingertip. One point in the > > > above that I recall them putting emphasis on was > > you > > > want the light sensors at the top and the light > > > sources at the bottom (to reduce false triggers by > > > sunlight etc.. > > > > > > For a level above this, I'm not sure ... gut the > > likes > > > of a Palm Pilot? > > > > > > Colin McGregor > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://gtalug.org/ > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tyler Aviss > > Systems Support > > LPIC/LPIC-2 > > (647) 477-1784 > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 21:41:33 2007 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: <20071029174239.GF27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071029174239.GF27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <596666.95519.qm@web88215.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 05:35:01PM +0000, > Christopher Browne wrote: > > Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from > the perspective of > > "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... > > Ehm, last I checked Canada was pretty far north, and > not very close to > an optimal launch point for anything going into > space. No point making > space ports here. Yes and no. Putting a spacecraft launch centre in Nova Scotia makes about as much sense as putting one in Alaska, which has been done: www.akaerospace.com Painfully broadly speaking there are two kinds of orbits, equatorial and polar. Equatorial orbits are the vast bulk of space launches as you can pick up "free" energy from Earth's rotation. Further there are a number of very interesting equatorial orbits, like geostationary orbit (used by the big TV satellites). Problem is there are some situations where you want one spacecraft to be able to see everything from North Pole to South Pole. Into this class you find some surveillance (both earth resources and military spy) spacecraft. You also find some specialized communications spacecraft in polar orbit (the Iridium phone system being an example). For a polar launch facility you want LOTS of water to the south (so that when something goes wrong, the chances of hitting people or valuable property is VERY low). In addition you want good nearby port facilities and/or good rail and/or good road connections to the rest of the world as you bring in tons of hardware. So, could Nova Scotia make a decent polar launch facility? Maybe, you could clearly do a lot worse. Nova Scotia would likely be a better location than say Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, which is where most US polar launches happen. But what concerns me here is the article is talking about doing space tourism, which is something that can be done cheaper into a equatorial orbit (an area Nova Scotia falls down on). Further there is a clear, proven, modest market for polar launches as governments / industry attempt to make or save money off better communications, and/or better Earth observations. What isn't proven is a way to make cash from space tourism. Further, unlike say government money that was used in the 19th century for railway building there doesn't seem to be a big useful infrastructure that will be reusable even if the main venture dies. So, we are talking an expensive, high risk, unproven market where it appears the government assumes most risk and a private firm will get the benefits if by some miracle it all works... In other words I like space flight, I would love to see a Canadian spaceport, BUT I want to see a solid business case for such an effort. Unless there is a very compelling national defense case or a VERY clear road to profits I want very little if any government cash in the mix.... Colin McGregor > > Why should the Federal Government spend a lot of > money to subsidize tourists? > > > > If they cannot or will not pay enough to attract > the infrastructure, > > why should the government take on the risk? > > > > This would expressly be a case of "corporate > welfare," of subsidizing > > a specific set of companies, and not for any value > I can really see. > > > > When I lived in the US, I did see some of this > sort of thing happening > > in the sports industry, where professional teams > have gotten into the > > habit of moving to whichever city offers to spend > the most on giving > > them a "free" stadium. It was (and is) a corrupt > practice. The > > cities would then pass on the cost by imposing > surtaxes on hotels and > > rental cars, and the fact that this would be paid > almost exclusively > > by non-voters made the practice palatable to city > councils and their > > voters. > > > > To be consistent with that practice, we might set > up a "Canadian Space > > Tourism Program" where all foreigners visiting the > country would be > > charged $10/day during their visit to help > subsidize our space > > program. > > > > Better still: Impose an extra 1% GST on all > foreigners in the > > country. They don't vote, so they can't > meaningfully oppose it. > > And the government would spend twice that much just > to administrate the > GST difference (never mind what it would cost the > poor stores to deal > with the crap). We could stop letting tourists get > GST/PST refunds when > they leave. That might actually make money and save > money since you > wouldn't have to administrate that silly system > anymore. :) > > > It's all just a way of making it work... > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 21:42:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:42:15 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472653B7.8030904@chrisaitken.net> Muhammad Imran wrote: > You can put Yum repositories in /etc/yum.conf [baseurl=] > Here are the contents of that file: [root at p733 chris]# cat /etc/yum.conf [main] cachedir=/var/cache/yum keepcache=0 debuglevel=2 logfile=/var/log/yum.log exactarch=1 obsoletes=1 gpgcheck=1 plugins=1 metadata_expire=1800 So, to that I would just add the line... baseurl=whateverrepo ? Now, what repository should I put in there? Chris > Or in files named .repo in /etc/yum/yum.repos.d > I don't have that file. We are talking about a redhat-based distro, right? I use fedora 7. Chris > > - Imran -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 21:50:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:50:15 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <472653B7.8030904-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <472653B7.8030904@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47265597.6040609@chrisaitken.net> I guess my wget is not working either... [root at p733 chris]# wget amarok --17:48:36-- http://amarok/ => `index.html' Resolving amarok... failed: Name or service not known. Chris Aitken wrote: > Muhammad Imran wrote: >> You can put Yum repositories in /etc/yum.conf [baseurl=] >> > Here are the contents of that file: > > [root at p733 chris]# cat /etc/yum.conf > [main] > cachedir=/var/cache/yum > keepcache=0 > debuglevel=2 > logfile=/var/log/yum.log > exactarch=1 > obsoletes=1 > gpgcheck=1 > plugins=1 > metadata_expire=1800 > > So, to that I would just add the line... > > baseurl=whateverrepo > > ? > Now, what repository should I put in there? > > Chris > > > > >> Or in files named .repo in /etc/yum/yum.repos.d > I don't have that file. We are talking about a redhat-based distro, > right? I use fedora 7. > > Chris >> >> - Imran -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 22:28:15 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:28:15 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47261C01.5030102-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:24:02PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: >> >>> Matt Price wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> amarok manages my ipod unproblematically I have supposedly successfully installed amarok: [chris at p733 ~]$ rpm -ivh http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-7.rpm Retrieving http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-7.rpm warning: /var/tmp/rpm-xfer.Prph5z: Header V3 DSA signature: NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec error: can't create transaction lock on /var/lib/rpm/__db.000 [chris at p733 ~]$ su Password: [root at p733 chris]# rpm -ivh http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-7.rpm Retrieving http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-7.rpm warning: /var/tmp/rpm-xfer.5Ega1Y: Header V3 DSA signature: NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec Preparing... ########################################### [100%] 1:livna-release ########################################### [100%] [root at p733 chris]# amarok bash: amarok: command not found [root at p733 chris]# rpm -ivh /home/chris/Desktop/livna* warning: /home/chris/Desktop/livna-release-7.rpm: Header V3 DSA signature: NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec Preparing... ########################################### [100%] package livna-release-7-2 is already installed [root at p733 chris]# livna bash: livna: command not found [root at p733 chris]# livna bash: livna: command not found [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/livna bash: /usr/bin/livna: No such file or directory [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/amarok bash: /usr/bin/amarok: No such file or directory [root at p733 chris]# Amarok bash: Amarok: command not found [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/Amarok bash: /usr/bin/Amarok: No such file or directory [root at p733 chris]# liva-release bash: liva-release: command not found However, as you can see, I'm not having any luck running it... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 22:30:47 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:30:47 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47265E7F.9010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47265F17.9010602@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > [root at p733 chris]# rpm -ivh /home/chris/Desktop/livna* > warning: /home/chris/Desktop/livna-release-7.rpm: Header V3 DSA > signature: NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec > Preparing... > ########################################### [100%] > package livna-release-7-2 is already installed > [root at p733 chris]# livna > bash: livna: command not found > [root at p733 chris]# livna > bash: livna: command not found > [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/livna > bash: /usr/bin/livna: No such file or directory > [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/amarok > bash: /usr/bin/amarok: No such file or directory > [root at p733 chris]# Amarok > bash: Amarok: command not found > [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/Amarok > bash: /usr/bin/Amarok: No such file or directory > [root at p733 chris]# liva-release > bash: liva-release: command not found > > However, as you can see, I'm not having any luck running it... [root at p733 chris]# locate amarok /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/khelpcenter/userguide/amarok-icon.png /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/khelpcenter/userguide/amarok.png is all I have on my system with the word 'amarok'... Chris > > Chris > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 22:56:02 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:56:02 -0400 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: <20071029174239.GF27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> <20071029174239.GF27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47266502.4000504@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 05:35:01PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > >> Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from the perspective of >> "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... >> > > Ehm, last I checked Canada was pretty far north, and not very close to > an optimal launch point for anything going into space. No point making > space ports here. > > That would depend on the desired inclination. You want to be able to launch as close to it as possible. For that reason, the ESA site in South America is better than NASA's Cape Canaveral for equatorial orbits, such as those used by geostationary satellites. On the other hand, polar orbits can be launched from anywhere. There are many satellites at significant inclinations. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 00:57:35 2007 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: <20071029174239.GF27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710261649l2496bdb8g3c92b2909166a152@mail.gmail.com> <20071029174239.GF27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Ehm, last I checked Canada was pretty far north, and not very close to > an optimal launch point for anything going into space. No point making > space ports here. There have been two serious proposals for commercial space ports in Australia - neither proceeded very far :( One was on Christmas Island (which you probably know as .cx) and the other was in Far North Queensland (FNQ to its friends). Yeah not really relevant but I just wanted to lament the fact that Australia still hasn't built a commercial spaceport despite a prime position. > And the government would spend twice that much just to administrate the > GST difference (never mind what it would cost the poor stores to deal > with the crap). We could stop letting tourists get GST/PST refunds when > they leave. That might actually make money and save money since you > wouldn't have to administrate that silly system anymore. :) I'm inclined to agree. The amount of money saved by tourists is not generally great (since there is a refund cap afaik) but the system must cost quite a bit to administer. Rob -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." -- RFC 1925 "The Twelve Networking Truths" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 01:38:01 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:38:01 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47265F17.9010602-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> <47265F17.9010602@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <7ac602420710291838r2eabbc96ra9d22c4205f8bcd9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > [root at p733 chris]# locate amarok > /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/khelpcenter/userguide/amarok-icon.png > /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/khelpcenter/userguide/amarok.png > > is all I have on my system with the word 'amarok'... You might have to run updatedb before locate finds amarok. The locate command consults a a local database of the contents of your system--it doesn't consult the system itself. The updatedb command updates the local database by trawling through your filesystem and keeping track of all the names it finds. Most systems have a nightly or weekly task that runs updatedb out of cron, so if you get this tomorrow, you might not have to run updatedb before running locate. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 01:39:40 2007 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:39:40 -0400 Subject: [OT]: How to help a Canadian Spaceport? In-Reply-To: <596666.95519.qm-Kg4S4JJQdT6B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <596666.95519.qm@web88215.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47268B5C.9070804@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 05:35:01PM +0000, >> Christopher Browne wrote: >> >>> Let me take a contrary view on this, and not from >>> >> the perspective of >> >>> "oh, I don't want any space stuff happening"... >>> >> Ehm, last I checked Canada was pretty far north, and >> not very close to >> an optimal launch point for anything going into >> space. No point making >> space ports here. >> > > Yes and no. Putting a spacecraft launch centre in Nova > Scotia makes about as much sense as putting one in > Alaska, which has been done: > > www.akaerospace.com > > Painfully broadly speaking there are two kinds of > orbits, equatorial and polar. Equatorial orbits are > the vast bulk of space launches as you can pick up > "free" energy from Earth's rotation. Further there are > a number of very interesting equatorial orbits, like > geostationary orbit (used by the big TV satellites). > > Problem is there are some situations where you want > one spacecraft to be able to see everything from North > Pole to South Pole. Into this class you find some > surveillance (both earth resources and military spy) > spacecraft. You also find some specialized > communications spacecraft in polar orbit (the Iridium > phone system being an example). > > There are other orbits, besides equatorial and polar. Many are at various degrees of inclination to the equator. For example if you want a satellite that covers most of populated world, you don't have to go anywhere near the poles. And there are some satellites in highly elliptical orbits, so that they spend most of the time over a certain portion of the earth. IIRC, there were some Russian communications satellites as well as some for amateur radio in elliptical orbits, so that they spend most of the orbit above the northern hemisphere. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 05:11:31 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:11:31 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD-4eJtQOnFJqFAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> Message-ID: <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 01:04:01PM -0700, Brendan Eich wrote >>> Many of us are very concerned that the language we love is being >>> rewritten under our feet." > > Love is important, it's what keeps a boat in the air (Serenity). > > This sounds all heartfelt -- but it's phony as a three dollar bill! ES4 is > a superset of ES3, with optional new facilities. It does nothing to "the > language we love" but supplement it where its weaknesses are manifest to > anyone who has written large programs in JS. No one is required to use the > new features, nothing is lost from the common core language. > > I created JS, so I can speak more authentically than whoever was quoted > above: I love JS too, quirks and all, but the idea that it should be kept > small, like a Toy Poodle, while giant companies such as Microsoft and > Yahoo! are purveying and propagating onto the Web proprietary Rottweiler > languages -- JS-beating programming languages with ES4-like features -- and > even hyping such languages against JS (see the rigged C# chess demo from > Mix07 that MS wrote to show up the JScript version of the same program: > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/pictures/mix-chess.png) -- this is a > breathtaking imposture. > > Sure, keep JS small in your hearts. But please, don't kid yourselves that > it has not reached the big-time, or that it and the open web standards it > works with to enable Ajax apps will survive the onslaught of proprietary > competitors, unless JS and other open standards evolve significantly. Just to let you know where I stand in this battle, my position is neutrality... i.e. the Pox on both your houses. Even in the case of the current ES3, I am unconfortable with the concept of Joe Random Webmaster (let alone Comrade Joe "Russian Business Network" Webmaster) being able to download code to, execute it on, my machine. One reason I left Windows for linux (and why I run Firefox on my Windows machine at work) is to get away from from "Active-Hacks" downloading and auto-executing hostile code on my machine. The concept of code from an even more powerful language (I don't care whether it's ES4, or Silverlight, or whatever) being downloaded to, and executed on, my machine has me very concerned. You wax enthusiastic about a bigger, better Javascript. If everybody shared your enthusiasm, "NoScript" would not be one of the most popular extensions for Firefox. Java at least acknowledges that powerful code from another machine might be a security risk, and tries (not always successfully, mind you) to sandbox it. Having written the original Livescript, I assume you were part of the original group that decided that since Livescript had so little power, it didn't need no steenkin sandbox. The current version has a lot more power than Livescript 1.0. The lack of a sandbox has resulted in a continuing repetition of... 1) Ignore people who tell you to run with Javascript dis-abled. They're just a bunch of ignorant stick-in-the-mud Luddites. 2) A zero-day Javascript security hole is discovered. Woop, woop, woop, alert, alert, alert. All the security types warn people to turn off Javascript until the hole is patched. 3) The hole is patched, and the all-clear is sounded. Go back to step 1. Rinse, lather, repeat... and then you wonder why people don't like Javascript and its kin. Variants of "Ecmascript" have had their own security problems. Adobe/Macrosoft's "Schlockwave-Trash" has "ActionScript", which has had some security alerts. There's Microsoft's VBscript/Jscript which has helped out with "drive-by-downloads". And let's not forget Microsoft's (in)famous WSH (Windows Scripting Host). My last internet-connected Windows machine at home (running Win98SE when I switched to linux in 2000) had lines in its AUTOEXEC.BAT to delete WSH (both the Windows and DOS versions) on bootup. Let me ask you 2 questions... 1) do you believe the average person browsing the web is competent to run an ssh server and let anonymous, possibly malicious, users run bash scripts (or windows batch files, whatever) on their machine? I assume your answer will be "NO". 2) do you believe the average person browsing the web is competent to run a javascript server and let anonymous, possibly malicious, websites run javascript on their machine? Why isn't your answer "NO"? -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 16:47:29 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:47:29 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/07, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > See how complexity was my friend? > > His theory was sound but the engineering was difficult because of > complexity. I think you and Lennart have both raised basically the same point. You're pointing out that the new language is more complex, right? And Lennart is pointing out that an interpreter for a new language is complex. I can't argue with either of you. New code is always buggier than old code. I suppose I have to concede the point that adding a new language interpreter to existing browsers is going to open new bugs, and perhaps re-open old bugs, merely because adding a new language requires adding new code. I think the problem of complexity is different from the "problem" Walt has raised. He outlined a three-step plan where first you pretend there are no problems in a script-enabled web, then you find a problem in the script-enabled web, then you patch the problem and go back to pretending there aren't any. This is a social problem and has nothing to do with the fact that a new language interpreter will introduce new bugs (as would any other feature, such as supporting CSS3 or HTML5). If anything, maybe we'll get some new blood in the development stream and they'll realize that new code brings new problems, and so they'll stop pretending that there are no problems. I'm an optimist, so don't expect anything. Walt ended his message with two questions with answers that everyone can agree on. His questions have nothing to do with the language features in the new version. Running a program that goes out onto the public web, downloads a random scrap of text, and then executes it is a dangerous activity. You're trusting your machine to someone else's code and the language they've chosen to write it in is pretty irrelevant. Frankly, when I explain it that way, it sorta sounds like downloading the latest release of Ubuntu from some random repository and running it, only when you run the latest Ubuntu, you're giving free access to the entire filesystem, rather than the downloaded code having to steal that access. Scripts in web pages are different from open source code--I haven't thought much about the last sentence, so the analogy probably dies pretty quickly under inspection--but consider that when an open source app is found to have a security flaw, the language used to write it is mostly irrelevant. (Of course, you sometimes get people saying things like "See! You should ditch C/C++ because of pointers!!! ZOMFG you can't get buffer overruns in Java/Python/Ruby/Perl/brainf*ck!", but that's different, I think.) Anyway, as I write this, Chris Browne has reiterated my point but this time with eloquence, so, uh, "what he said". Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 17:01:03 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Ian Petersen | I think you and Lennart have both raised basically the same point. No, I don't think so. | You're pointing out that the new language is more complex, right? No, I didn't say that. I have not studied the language and have no opinion on that. I was only challenging your analysis that could be summarized as: the security issues for all Turing-complete systems are identical and hence if you have solved them for one, you have solved them for all. | And | Lennart is pointing out that an interpreter for a new language is | complex. I don't think that that is a fair summary of what he said. I understood him to say new untested code is worthy of more distrust than old tested code. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 17:04:57 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:04:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for a GTA source for Toshiba R500 laptop In-Reply-To: <4727533B.5020909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4727533B.5020909@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/30/07, John McGregor wrote: > Compusmart (Yonge and Richmond) carries the Portege R500 series. > > http://www.compusmart.com/Product/Default.aspx?CatalogID=0&SupplierPartNo=750303&ShowSpecs=True > > FWIW, I second Lennart's comment about Toshiba's build quality or lack > thereof. John, Lennart, Thanks fo you both for your links and your feedback. I'll pass both on to my classmate -- he's living in Sydney, Australia right now and working (I believe) somewhere in Europe .. so he needs something that's very light, very powerful and very portable. Of course, I'll ask him why he isn't choosign a Mac laptop instead -- it could be that the Mac just doesn't support all of the wireless options that he requires. I don't own a laptop, so I know pretty well nothing on the subject. Thanks again. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 17:22:25 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:22:25 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/07, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Ian Petersen > > | I think you and Lennart have both raised basically the same point. > > No, I don't think so. > > | You're pointing out that the new language is more complex, right? > > No, I didn't say that. I have not studied the language and have no > opinion on that. I seem to have put my foot in my mouth, so I'll try to be brief. > I was only challenging your analysis that could be summarized as: the > security issues for all Turing-complete systems are identical and > hence if you have solved them for one, you have solved them for all. I think your summary is stronger than what I intended to say (because, for example, the lack of buffer overruns in Javascript means its security issues are probably different that the issues that C faces), but maybe not. I believe that the existing Javascript interpreter can simulate the new language, so I don't think the new language is introducing new problems*. I don't know what is implied by "all Turing-complete systems", so I don't know what the security issues are for an arbitrary member of that set. > | And > | Lennart is pointing out that an interpreter for a new language is > | complex. > > I don't think that that is a fair summary of what he said. > > I understood him to say new untested code is worthy of more distrust > than old tested code. Yes, you're right. I focussed on the special case of a new interpreter and Lennart's point was broader than that. Ian * Lennart was right when he said that a new language implies a new interpreter, which very likely implies new bugs so, in a way, a new language is introducing new problems. However, I have to believe that, when designing a language, you assume that the interpreter will work. Bugs in the language are different from bugs in an arbitrary interpreter for that language and, more to the point, Walt was denigrating the _language_, not its interpreter. -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 07:18:26 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:18:26 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <20071030051131.GA9786-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > The concept of code from an even more powerful language (I don't care > whether it's ES4, or Silverlight, or whatever) being downloaded to, and > executed on, my machine has me very concerned. The parts that I've snipped raise some very valid concerns regarding the security hole that is Javascript in the browser. What I fail to see is how adding optional static typing and some syntactic sugar to a Turing-complete language makes this problem any bigger than it already is. There are lots of reasons not to allow Javascript to run in your browser and you've done an excellent job of explaining them to all of us, but the implication that these language revisions will lead to more problems, bigger problems, or problems that are harder to solve seems to me to be nothing more than fear mongering. Walter, I don't know your background, so sorry if you already know this, but once a language reaches Turing completeness, the only way to make it "more powerful" is to make it aesthetically better in some dimension. Maybe you make it more expressive so the same algorithm takes less code. Maybe you make the interpreter better so the same code runs faster. Maybe you make the language easier to read so it takes less time to get back into the code a month after you first wrote it. In the case of Javascript in the browser, the only change these three things implies is that something will be faster--if the code is more compact, it'll download faster; if the interpreter is better, your credit card numbers will be stolen more quickly; if the code is easier to read, then a computer forensics person will understand the exploit more quickly after his honey pot gets owned. Nothing new will happen, old stuff will just happen faster. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the problem is merely different. It's not bigger or smaller, it's different. For the people that prefer to experience a script-enabled web, the new language will make it easier for script writers to provide a rich experience. For the people who prefer to run NoScript, they can continue to run NoScript and still have the script-disabled web. For the people, like me, that think Javascript is a nifty language with uses outside the browser, the new tools in the new language will make database migration tools and code generators and build scripts easier to write. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 13:51:14 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:51:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for a GTA source for Toshiba R500 laptop Message-ID: Hi folks, A classmate of mine is coming into Toronto and is looking for somewhere in the GTA to pick up a Toshiba Ultraportable R500: http://www.trustedreviews.com/notebooks/review/2007/09/29/Toshiba-Port-g-R500-10U-Ultra-Portable-Notebook/p1 I have to say that this looks like an awesome laptop. Anyway .. Can anyone on the list recommend a store in the GTA that would sell such a beast? My favourite PC store Sonnam [1] only carries four laptops, none of them as gorgeous as the R500. Thanks All! -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb [1] http://www.sonnam.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 17:51:02 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:51:02 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47276F06.60406@chrisaitken.net> Alex Beamish wrote: > When I need to print a PDF from xpdf (goofy Motif interface, grumble, > grumble) I just put 'lpr' into the dialog that the print command pops > up, and it just works. lpr is already filled in by default. The problem is that I use cups not lpr. I think I have some old information to make symlinks so that lpr actually invokes the cups printing command (whatever it is). I'll look it up... Chris > There's probably some kind of configuration > change that I could do to make that permanent, but it's not that > important to me, so I continue to type in 'lpr' whenever I need to > print from xpdf. > Again, lpr is precisely the command that is not working. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:04:55 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:04:55 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071030150455.GJ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 03:18:26AM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote: > The parts that I've snipped raise some very valid concerns regarding > the security hole that is Javascript in the browser. What I fail to > see is how adding optional static typing and some syntactic sugar to a > Turing-complete language makes this problem any bigger than it already > is. There are lots of reasons not to allow Javascript to run in your > browser and you've done an excellent job of explaining them to all of > us, but the implication that these language revisions will lead to > more problems, bigger problems, or problems that are harder to solve > seems to me to be nothing more than fear mongering. > > Walter, I don't know your background, so sorry if you already know > this, but once a language reaches Turing completeness, the only way to > make it "more powerful" is to make it aesthetically better in some > dimension. Maybe you make it more expressive so the same algorithm > takes less code. Maybe you make the interpreter better so the same > code runs faster. Maybe you make the language easier to read so it > takes less time to get back into the code a month after you first > wrote it. In the case of Javascript in the browser, the only change > these three things implies is that something will be faster--if the > code is more compact, it'll download faster; if the interpreter is > better, your credit card numbers will be stolen more quickly; if the > code is easier to read, then a computer forensics person will > understand the exploit more quickly after his honey pot gets owned. > Nothing new will happen, old stuff will just happen faster. > > I guess what I'm trying to say is that the problem is merely > different. It's not bigger or smaller, it's different. For the > people that prefer to experience a script-enabled web, the new > language will make it easier for script writers to provide a rich > experience. For the people who prefer to run NoScript, they can > continue to run NoScript and still have the script-disabled web. For > the people, like me, that think Javascript is a nifty language with > uses outside the browser, the new tools in the new language will make > database migration tools and code generators and build scripts easier > to write. New language version implies new version of code in browser with new features added and hence new places for bugs and security holes to be created. It may not be the new language causing security holes, but it is the new language being added that causes them to have a chance to be made in the first place. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:04:37 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:04:37 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf Message-ID: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> I can't print .pdf files from xpdf. The default print command is lpr. Can I just replace that with whatever the cups print command is? Or do I have to do a symlink from the lpr command to whatever the cups print command is. cups rpinting is working just fine - I can print everything else (email, OO docs et al.). I'll still need to know what the cups print command is. What is it? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:19:58 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <472653B7.8030904-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <472653B7.8030904@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: | From: Chris Aitken Don't put random things in control files. That may have bad consequences. | Muhammad Imran wrote: | > You can put Yum repositories in /etc/yum.conf [baseurl=] Not the conventional place to put this. For safe administration, follow conventions. | Now, what repository should I put in there? I don't remember what you are looking for. But don't do this. | > Or in files named .repo in /etc/yum/yum.repos.d | > | I don't have that file. We are talking about a redhat-based distro, right? I | use fedora 7. try: $ ls -l /etc/yum.repos.d/ Find out what repo you want. They will most likely supply a suitable new file for putting in this directory. But don't lightly add repos. They don't all get along (there are conflicts that are problematic). Livna is usually safe and reasonable (not all of its content is legal in US; not sure about Canada). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:21:14 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47265597.6040609-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <472653B7.8030904@chrisaitken.net> <47265597.6040609@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: | From: Chris Aitken | | I guess my wget is not working either... | | [root at p733 chris]# wget amarok | --17:48:36-- http://amarok/ | => `index.html' | Resolving amarok... failed: Name or service not known. Read the wget manual. wget takes a URL. "amork" isn't a reasonable URL. It certainly isn't the one you mean. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 18:00:04 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:00:04 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <47277124.70509@chrisaitken.net> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Chris Aitken > > | [root at p733 chris]# rpm -ivh /home/chris/Desktop/livna* > | warning: /home/chris/Desktop/livna-release-7.rpm: Header V3 DSA signature: > | NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec > | Preparing... ########################################### [100%] > | package livna-release-7-2 is already installed > | [root at p733 chris]# livna > | bash: livna: command not found > > Why would you think livna was a command? > Because I went to website that gave an "easy install" command to install amarok. I ran the command and assumed that amarok was installed. When 'amarok' did not invoke the program I tried other words in the information that was coming up on the screen - I tried 'livna' as that appeared to be the name of the package (that was advertised as being 'amarok'). > You have just added the livna repository to your yum's collection. > To see a list of files that were added: > > $ rpm -ql livna-release-7 > > It will have added a signing key for RPMs too. > > | [root at p733 chris]# livna > | bash: livna: command not found > > Still not a command. > > | [root at p733 chris]# Amarok > | bash: Amarok: command not found > | [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/Amarok > | > | However, as you can see, I'm not having any luck running it... > > You've added the repo, but not amarok to your system. > > As root, try > # yum install amarok > Yeah, that's what is not working here. I'm trying to find, 1. The url of a repository that is working, and 2. what line to add to what configuration file so that yum will point to a repository that is working. > I'm not actually sure that that is the (only) package name. So try: > # yum list 'amarok*' > [root at p733 chris]# yum list 'amarok*' http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again This thread has taken a detour (from iPod to Amarok to yum) because my yum is not working. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:30:08 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:30:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for a GTA source for Toshiba R500 laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071030153008.GK27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 09:51:14AM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > A classmate of mine is coming into Toronto and is looking for > somewhere in the GTA to pick up a Toshiba Ultraportable R500: > > http://www.trustedreviews.com/notebooks/review/2007/09/29/Toshiba-Port-g-R500-10U-Ultra-Portable-Notebook/p1 > > I have to say that this looks like an awesome laptop. Anyway .. Can > anyone on the list recommend a store in the GTA that would sell such a > beast? > > My favourite PC store Sonnam [1] only carries four laptops, none of > them as gorgeous as the R500. Thanks All! Ouch, pricey little thing. Amazing weight though. My wife doesn't seem to think her 2.0kg tablet is a weight problem though (although she did move from a 15.4" compaq presario which was giant). Only place in the GTA that carries it as far as I can tell is: http://www.infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=350046 You would have to call them to check if they have it in stock or not. Other than that it seems online at CDW has it (well they have some coming in, they are all out at the moment). Of course other not quite as light notebooks are much more powerful and a lot less money, such as the Asus F9S-B1 for example, and generally much easier to find. And they are not Toshibas (My past experience with Toshibas involved too much proprietary hardware for my liking. Linux was not easy to install. Neither was windows actually). With the ultralighs you give up a lot of performance and features and pay a fortune to get it a pound and a bit lighter. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:31:08 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47265E7F.9010508-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: | From: Chris Aitken | [root at p733 chris]# rpm -ivh /home/chris/Desktop/livna* | warning: /home/chris/Desktop/livna-release-7.rpm: Header V3 DSA signature: | NOKEY, key ID a109b1ec | Preparing... ########################################### [100%] | package livna-release-7-2 is already installed | [root at p733 chris]# livna | bash: livna: command not found Why would you think livna was a command? You have just added the livna repository to your yum's collection. To see a list of files that were added: $ rpm -ql livna-release-7 It will have added a signing key for RPMs too. | [root at p733 chris]# livna | bash: livna: command not found Still not a command. | [root at p733 chris]# Amarok | bash: Amarok: command not found | [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/Amarok | | However, as you can see, I'm not having any luck running it... You've added the repo, but not amarok to your system. As root, try # yum install amarok I'm not actually sure that that is the (only) package name. So try: # yum list 'amarok*' to see what packages might be useful. On my 64-bit system (different from yours): $ yum list 'amarok*' Installed Packages amarok.i386 1.4.7-5.fc7 installed amarok.x86_64 1.4.7-5.fc7 installed Available Packages amarok-extras-nonfree.x86_64 1.4.4-1.lvn7 livna amarok-visualisation.x86_64 1.4.7-5.fc7 updates amarokFS.x86_64 0.5-1.fc7 fedora The non-free is stuff that isn't free in the US (and maybe Canada, I don't know). Odd that this did not list a .i386 version of this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:31:20 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:31:20 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <47274805.2060205-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 11:04:37AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I can't print .pdf files from xpdf. > > The default print command is lpr. Can I just replace that with whatever > the cups print command is? Or do I have to do a symlink from the lpr > command to whatever the cups print command is. cups rpinting is working > just fine - I can print everything else (email, OO docs et al.). I'll > still need to know what the cups print command is. What is it? With cups/foomatic I just do: lpr filename.pdf I never did like xpdf at all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:40:56 2007 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:40:56 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <47274805.2060205-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On 10/30/07, Chris Aitken wrote: > I can't print .pdf files from xpdf. > > The default print command is lpr. Can I just replace that with whatever > the cups print command is? Or do I have to do a symlink from the lpr > command to whatever the cups print command is. cups rpinting is working > just fine - I can print everything else (email, OO docs et al.). I'll > still need to know what the cups print command is. What is it? When I need to print a PDF from xpdf (goofy Motif interface, grumble, grumble) I just put 'lpr' into the dialog that the print command pops up, and it just works. There's probably some kind of configuration change that I could do to make that permanent, but it's not that important to me, so I continue to type in 'lpr' whenever I need to print from xpdf. Someone better than me at System Administration can probably explain what's going on. Don't all speak at once. ;) -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:52:27 2007 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:52:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for a GTA source for Toshiba R500 laptop Message-ID: <4727533B.5020909@rogers.com> Compusmart (Yonge and Richmond) carries the Portege R500 series. http://www.compusmart.com/Product/Default.aspx?CatalogID=0&SupplierPartNo=750303&ShowSpecs=True FWIW, I second Lennart's comment about Toshiba's build quality or lack thereof. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:54:04 2007 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Ian Petersen | Walter, I don't know your background, so sorry if you already know | this, but once a language reaches Turing completeness, the only way to | make it "more powerful" is to make it aesthetically better in some | dimension. That is true in theory. That same kind of theory say FALSE implies anything. In other words, once you have a contradiction in a system, nothing can be known about it. The real world is different. Security is an estimated probability distribution function, not a binary value. Lots of things can affect this PDF. The major enemy of competent folks engineering a secure system is complexity. Well, complexity and management :-) :-) Anecdote: In the mid 1970's I went to a talk at the U of T by an eminent computer scientist. His talk was about building a secure subsystem on an insecure platform. In particular, a student PL/I compiler (PL/C) on top of OS/370. It the talk I asked: how could he be convinced that he'd achieved security when the interface to be secure was so broad (PL/I was considered a very big language at the time). He said that he was sure. It took me 15 minutes to crack PL/C (remember: this included punching cards and waiting in line to submit the test runs). And I'd not tried to crack it before. It took the interaction of three features: - multi-dimensional arrays (I chose 256 * 256 * 256 * 256 to cause an overflow in the size calculation) - run-time dimensioning (because compile-time overflow was detected) - PL/I's exception handling (to suppress the run-time overflow check) See how complexity was my friend? His theory was sound but the engineering was difficult because of complexity. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 16:14:29 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:14:29 +0000 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <20071030051131.GA9786-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 10/30/07, Walter Dnes wrote: > > Sure, keep JS small in your hearts. But please, don't kid yourselves that > > it has not reached the big-time, or that it and the open web standards it > > works with to enable Ajax apps will survive the onslaught of proprietary > > competitors, unless JS and other open standards evolve significantly. > > Just to let you know where I stand in this battle, my position is > neutrality... i.e. the Pox on both your houses. Even in the case of > the current ES3, I am unconfortable with the concept of Joe Random > Webmaster (let alone Comrade Joe "Russian Business Network" Webmaster) > being able to download code to, execute it on, my machine. One reason I > left Windows for linux (and why I run Firefox on my Windows machine at > work) is to get away from from "Active-Hacks" downloading and > auto-executing hostile code on my machine. > > The concept of code from an even more powerful language (I don't care > whether it's ES4, or Silverlight, or whatever) being downloaded to, and > executed on, my machine has me very concerned. In that case, you're fairly deeply misunderstanding the nature of the security problem. The security problem does NOT have much, if anything, to do with "how powerful the language is." Historically, consider that people have used stack-smashing attacks to get machine code (which may be argued to be *less* powerful in the relevant sense [1]) to run exploits. Based on that, it may be clearly seen that the "abstract power" of languages has ZERO to do with whether or not they may be used to initiate security exploits. That JavaScript may become "more powerful" than it is now is essentially *irrelevant* from a security standpoint. >2) do you believe the average person browsing the web is competent to >run a javascript server and let anonymous, possibly malicious, websites >run javascript on their machine? Why isn't your answer "NO"? With the widespread popularity of JavaScript-based application frameworks, people *MUST* have support for it in their browsers in order to be able to use the web-based services that they are CHOOSING to use. If you try telling people "You can't run the apps you want to run", then you lose the argument on the basis of that very premise. [1] The "relevant sense" is that JavaScript provides additional abstractions, notably in the form of fairly sophisticated data structures, that make it easier to write more sophisticated programs. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 18:11:51 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:11:51 +0000 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007 5:22 PM, Ian Petersen wrote: > On 10/30/07, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Ian Petersen > > > > | I think you and Lennart have both raised basically the same point. > > > > No, I don't think so. > > > > | You're pointing out that the new language is more complex, right? > > > > No, I didn't say that. I have not studied the language and have no > > opinion on that. > > I seem to have put my foot in my mouth, so I'll try to be brief. > > > I was only challenging your analysis that could be summarized as: the > > security issues for all Turing-complete systems are identical and > > hence if you have solved them for one, you have solved them for all. > > I think your summary is stronger than what I intended to say (because, > for example, the lack of buffer overruns in Javascript means its > security issues are probably different that the issues that C faces), > but maybe not. I believe that the existing Javascript interpreter can > simulate the new language, so I don't think the new language is > introducing new problems*. I don't know what is implied by "all > Turing-complete systems", so I don't know what the security issues are > for an arbitrary member of that set. Generally speaking, claims about "all Turing-complete systems" are about the notion that a Turing Machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine) is considered powerful enough to compute anything that is computable. The basic TM is a really rather simple device, but since there is the strong computational result, the argument can be made that no language is *essentially* more powerful at computing than a TM, and therefore that no may be FUNDAMENTALLY more powerful than any other. In one sense, there's truth to that, and an important truth, in that the notion that there is some equivalence between different languages implies some likelihood that if there are fundamental problems with one, they may map onto fundamental problems in another. There is also some essential falsity to it. While all computer languages (of some level of sophistication) are essentially able to compute the same things, they are NOT all equal in how convenient or efficient it may be to compute things. - If working with vector-based problems, APL may be somewhat preferable. - If working with problems that heavily use strings, then it is likely that languages like C will be less than preferable, and that languages that offer strings as "first class objects" like SNOBOL, Icon, Awk, and their descendants will be more convenient and efficient to use. - If working with rule-based problems, guarded Horn clauses are a useful abstraction, and languages similar to Prolog are likely to be preferrable. There is a security side to this, where C happens to be particularly vulnerable in certain ways, and those languages with "first class strings" tend to lack those specific vulnerabilities. > > | And > > | Lennart is pointing out that an interpreter for a new language is > > | complex. > > > > I don't think that that is a fair summary of what he said. > > > > I understood him to say new untested code is worthy of more distrust > > than old tested code. > > Yes, you're right. I focussed on the special case of a new > interpreter and Lennart's point was broader than that. On the other hand, if the new version of JavaScript happens to have a more regular/orthogonal design, it may be the case that it is easier to construct more comprehensive tests for the new version, which would tend to point to the newer code having the potential for being *better* tested, and hence less worthy of distrust. I don't know if that is the case, though; I have no indication at present as to whether that is the case or not. > * Lennart was right when he said that a new language implies a new > interpreter, which very likely implies new bugs so, in a way, a new > language is introducing new problems. However, I have to believe > that, when designing a language, you assume that the interpreter will > work. Bugs in the language are different from bugs in an arbitrary > interpreter for that language and, more to the point, Walt was > denigrating the _language_, not its interpreter. To be more exquisitely precise, I would separate this into two terms: 1) The language design and specification, and 2) Specific implementations of the language. (Interpreted or otherwise.) It is quite worthy of separation because there are very different kinds of assertions that fall out of those two aspects. Problems that are found in the design/specification will be intrinsic to ALL implementations; if the language is misdesigned in some important way, that can only be rectified by a refusal to comply with the specification. In contrast, problems found with implementations have much greater room for action, and fundamentally better opportunity for repair. But stepping back to the real problem, I don't think any of this actually relates to the security problem that Walter Dnes is concerned about. His objection is to the fact of there being a JavaScript processor operating as part of the web browser in the first place. Changes to the language design or to a given implementation are irrelevant to that. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 18:15:07 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:15:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for a GTA source for Toshiba R500 laptop In-Reply-To: References: <4727533B.5020909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20071030181507.GM27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:04:57PM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > Thanks fo you both for your links and your feedback. > > I'll pass both on to my classmate -- he's living in Sydney, Australia > right now and working (I believe) somewhere in Europe .. so he needs > something that's very light, very powerful and very portable. > > Of course, I'll ask him why he isn't choosign a Mac laptop instead -- > it could be that the Mac just doesn't support all of the wireless > options that he requires. I don't own a laptop, so I know pretty well > nothing on the subject. Hmm, if he is in europe does that mean he wants a european keyboard (with euro and stuff on it)? :) The ultralighs are very much NOT powerful. They sacrifice speed and performance in general for weight. I would personally think one of the 4 pounds rather than 2.4 pound laptops with 2 to 4 times the performance and 2/3 the price make much more sense. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 18:16:31 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:16:31 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <47276F06.60406-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <47276F06.60406@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071030181631.GN27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:51:02PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > lpr is already filled in by default. The problem is that I use cups not > lpr. I think I have some old information to make symlinks so that lpr > actually invokes the cups printing command (whatever it is). I'll look > it up... Installing cupsys-bsd and cupsys-client on debian provides the cups bsd commands and cups sysv commands respectively. With both parts installed every program seems to just work. This also ensure no other ancient crap print system is installed (like lpd, lprng, etc). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 18:41:47 2007 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:41:47 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200710301441.51318.jamon.camisso@utoronto.ca> On October 30, 2007 02:11:51 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > On Oct 30, 2007 5:22 PM, Ian Petersen wrote: > > On 10/30/07, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > | From: Ian Petersen > > > | > > > | I think you and Lennart have both raised basically the same > > > | point. > > > > > > No, I don't think so. > > > > > > | You're pointing out that the new language is more complex, > > > | right? > > > > > > No, I didn't say that. I have not studied the language and have > > > no opinion on that. > > > > I seem to have put my foot in my mouth, so I'll try to be brief. > > > > > I was only challenging your analysis that could be summarized as: > > > the security issues for all Turing-complete systems are identical > > > and hence if you have solved them for one, you have solved them > > > for all. > > > > I think your summary is stronger than what I intended to say > > (because, for example, the lack of buffer overruns in Javascript > > means its security issues are probably different that the issues > > that C faces), but maybe not. I believe that the existing > > Javascript interpreter can simulate the new language, so I don't > > think the new language is introducing new problems*. I don't know > > what is implied by "all Turing-complete systems", so I don't know > > what the security issues are for an arbitrary member of that set. > > Generally speaking, claims about "all Turing-complete systems" are > about the notion that a Turing Machine > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine) is considered powerful > enough to compute anything that is computable. The basic TM is a > really rather simple device, but since there is the strong > computational result, the argument can be made that no language is > *essentially* more powerful at computing than a TM, and therefore > that no may be FUNDAMENTALLY more powerful than any other. > > In one sense, there's truth to that, and an important truth, in that > the notion that there is some equivalence between different languages > implies some likelihood that if there are fundamental problems with > one, they may map onto fundamental problems in another. > > There is also some essential falsity to it. While all computer > languages (of some level of sophistication) are essentially able to > compute the same things, they are NOT all equal in how convenient or > efficient it may be to compute things. > - If working with vector-based problems, APL may be somewhat > preferable. - If working with problems that heavily use strings, then > it is likely that languages like C will be less than preferable, and > that languages that offer strings as "first class objects" like > SNOBOL, Icon, Awk, and their descendants will be more convenient and > efficient to use. - If working with rule-based problems, guarded Horn > clauses are a useful abstraction, and languages similar to Prolog are > likely to be preferrable. > > There is a security side to this, where C happens to be particularly > vulnerable in certain ways, and those languages with "first class > strings" tend to lack those specific vulnerabilities. > > > > | And > > > | Lennart is pointing out that an interpreter for a new language > > > | is complex. > > > > > > I don't think that that is a fair summary of what he said. > > > > > > I understood him to say new untested code is worthy of more > > > distrust than old tested code. > > > > Yes, you're right. I focussed on the special case of a new > > interpreter and Lennart's point was broader than that. > > On the other hand, if the new version of JavaScript happens to have a > more regular/orthogonal design, it may be the case that it is easier > to construct more comprehensive tests for the new version, which > would tend to point to the newer code having the potential for being > *better* tested, and hence less worthy of distrust. > > I don't know if that is the case, though; I have no indication at > present as to whether that is the case or not. > > > * Lennart was right when he said that a new language implies a new > > interpreter, which very likely implies new bugs so, in a way, a new > > language is introducing new problems. However, I have to believe > > that, when designing a language, you assume that the interpreter > > will work. Bugs in the language are different from bugs in an > > arbitrary interpreter for that language and, more to the point, > > Walt was denigrating the _language_, not its interpreter. > > To be more exquisitely precise, I would separate this into two terms: > > 1) The language design and specification, and > > 2) Specific implementations of the language. (Interpreted or > otherwise.) > > It is quite worthy of separation because there are very different > kinds of assertions that fall out of those two aspects. > > Problems that are found in the design/specification will be intrinsic > to ALL implementations; if the language is misdesigned in some > important way, that can only be rectified by a refusal to comply with > the specification. > > In contrast, problems found with implementations have much greater > room for action, and fundamentally better opportunity for repair. > > But stepping back to the real problem, I don't think any of this > actually relates to the security problem that Walter Dnes is > concerned about. > > His objection is to the fact of there being a JavaScript processor > operating as part of the web browser in the first place. > > Changes to the language design or to a given implementation are > irrelevant to that. As the network (broadly defined) becomes more and more the center of computing, one way of mitigating against (at least in part) those concerns is to use established frameworks/libraries like Dojo, jQuery, scriptaculous, GWT etc. Much of the problem (IMHO) with Javascript implementations is that every site seems to have its own custom written solution. Likely that is because there haven't been many javascript libraries available historically? I think those crossbrowser compatible frameworks are changing things for the better as they gain more widespread usage and acceptance. However, using an established library on a website should in no way diminish the broad concern of clientside browser security that Walter points out. But using one (or more of course) could at least create a middle way, where users can trust the library/site? Perhaps a browser extension to sign or verify known scripts/libraries/functions would be useful? Probably something Greasemonkey could do. I guess the issue is one mostly founded on mistrust: users don't want to risk executing clientside code for fear of compromising their systems, and developers don't want to run (some) serverside code for fear of compromising theirs, or reducing their ability to scale said system because of processing constraints. Jamon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 19:18:24 2007 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:18:24 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ac602420710301218x74ff643dj35b5fe4a2e0bb0d3@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/07, Christopher Browne wrote: > His objection is to the fact of there being a JavaScript processor > operating as part of the web browser in the first place. > > Changes to the language design or to a given implementation are > irrelevant to that. Yes. That is exactly what I've been thinking. Thank you for capturing it so concisely. And Walter, I'm sorry for shortening your name to Walt in my last email--I don't know what I was thinking--I don't want to presume any familiarity. Ian -- Tired of pop-ups, security holes, and spyware? Try Firefox: http://www.getfirefox.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 19:29:20 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:29:20 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071030153120.GL27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 11:04:37AM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I can't print .pdf files from xpdf. >> >> The default print command is lpr. Can I just replace that with whatever >> the cups print command is? Or do I have to do a symlink from the lpr >> command to whatever the cups print command is. cups rpinting is working >> just fine - I can print everything else (email, OO docs et al.). I'll >> still need to know what the cups print command is. What is it? >> > > With cups/foomatic I just do: lpr filename.pdf[chris at p733 ~]$ lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > lpr: Error - no default destination available. > [chris at p733 ~]$ /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. > [chris at p733 ~]$ su > Password: > [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. > > Not working for me: [chris at p733 ~]$ lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf lpr: Error - no default destination available. [chris at p733 ~]$ /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. [chris at p733 ~]$ su Password: [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 19:33:27 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:33:27 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071030181631.GN27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <47276F06.60406@chrisaitken.net> <20071030181631.GN27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <47278707.5040901@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:51:02PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> lpr is already filled in by default. The problem is that I use cups not >> lpr. I think I have some old information to make symlinks so that lpr >> actually invokes the cups printing command (whatever it is). I'll look >> it up... >> I created a symlink and it didn't help: [chris at p733 ~]$ ln -s /usr/bin/lpr.cups /usr/bin/lpr ln: creating symbolic link `/usr/bin/lpr': File exists Printing from xpdf (to it's default lpr) is still not working. I did /sbin/service cups restart and /etc/init.d/cups stop /etc/init.d/cups start (which probably just does the same thing) - still not printing. I tried typing the complete /usr/bin/lpr in place of the lpr in xpdf and it still didn't print. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 20:43:30 2007 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: locked out of home directory?? In-Reply-To: <20071029173336.GB27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20071025192851.i04f4gffns4c0owc@webmail.utoronto.ca> <47213827.40905@rogers.com> <20071029173336.GB27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I believe apache will put up with a home dir that is rwxr--r-- as long > as public_html (or equivelant) is rwxr-xr-x underneath it. rwx------ > won't work though since then it can't find the inoe for the public_html > dir. I prefer to put users' public_html directories in the server's document-root directory (or a subdirectory thereof) and symlink them into the home directories. That way, $HOME can be rwx------. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 21:15:54 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:15:54 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <47278610.2070808-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 03:29:20PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Not working for me: > > [chris at p733 ~]$ lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > lpr: Error - no default destination available. > [chris at p733 ~]$ /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. > [chris at p733 ~]$ su > Password: > [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf > /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. You may have to set a default printer or specify the name of one with -P xxx lpoptions -d printername sets the default for your user. /var/run/cups/printcap lists which printers cups currently knows about. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 21:27:19 2007 From: interluglists-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Interlug Lists) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:27:19 -0400 Subject: monsoon settles and pays. Message-ID: <408ae1640710301427vfb930aciccc86d66e6697a06@mail.gmail.com> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071030130750322 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 21:56:17 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:56:17 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071030211554.GO27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 03:29:20PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Not working for me: >> >> [chris at p733 ~]$ lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> [chris at p733 ~]$ /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> [chris at p733 ~]$ su >> Password: >> [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> > > You may have to set a default printer or specify the name of one with -P > xxx > > lpoptions -d printername sets the default for your user. > > /var/run/cups/printcap lists which printers cups currently knows about. > [root at p733 chris]# /var/run/cups/printcap bash: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory [root at p733 chris]# cat /var/run/cups/printcap cat: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory I don't have that file. The only thing in the cups directory is cups.sock and another directory (certs which contains nothing): [root at p733 chris]# ls -a /var/run/cups/certs . .. 0 Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 22:08:31 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:08:31 -0400 Subject: iPod Nano In-Reply-To: <47277124.70509-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <471DF2B7.3070103@chrisaitken.net> <1193146776.29908.71.camel@localhost> <472222B2.3000406@chrisaitken.net> <20071029173930.GE27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47261C01.5030102@chrisaitken.net> <47265E7F.9010508@chrisaitken.net> <47277124.70509@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4727AB5F.40901@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: Here's two more commands (from a website) that didn't work to install amarok: [root at p733 chris]# sudo yum install amarok livna 100% |=========================| 2.1 kB 00:00 primary.sqlite.bz2 100% |=========================| 157 kB 00:01 fedora 100% |=========================| 2.1 kB 00:00 http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again [root at p733 chris]# sudo yum --enablerepo=freshrpms install Error getting repository data for freshrpms, repository not found [root at p733 chris]# sudo yum --enablerepo=livna install amarok-extras-nonfree http://linuxdownload.adobe.com/linux/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: adobe-linux-i386. Please verify its path and try again [root at p733 chris]# If anyone knows a working repository (and how to configure yum to point to it) please let me know. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 22:32:37 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:32:37 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071030211554.GO27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 03:29:20PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Not working for me: >> >> [chris at p733 ~]$ lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> [chris at p733 ~]$ /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> [chris at p733 ~]$ su >> Password: >> [root at p733 chris]# /usr/bin/lpr /home/chris/Desktop/Calendar.pdf >> /usr/bin/lpr: Error - no default destination available. >> > > You may have to set a default printer or specify the name of one with -P > xxx > > lpoptions -d printername sets the default for your user. > [root at p733 chris]# lpq -PPSC_1600_series PSC_1600_series is ready no entries [root at p733 chris]# lpoptions -d PSC_1600_series job-sheets=none,none printer-info='HP PSC 1600 Foomatic/hpijs' printer-is-accepting-jobs=1 printer-is-shared=1 printer-make-and-model='HP PSC 1600 Foomatic/hpijs (recommended)' printer-state=3 printer-state-change-time=1193782101 printer-state-reasons=none printer-type=36892 [root at p733 chris]# Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 06:46:42 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:46:42 -0400 Subject: iPod Video Message-ID: <20071031024642.53435f98@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Got my flashy new iPod Classic today, it's really sweet :-) Anyhow, got a friend to load some stuff on it while I was at work using iTunes, then when I came home decided to load my music collection and some videos. Fired up gtkpod and loaded some music and thought I would try transferring some mp4 video files as well. Gtkpod did not complain and showed that it had transferred the files successfully and updated the database on the device. However, now when I access the iPod's menu, it shows no available files at all... The device and gtkpod both show that some storage is being used on the iPod, but none of it can be accessed from the iPod menu. Anyone have some experience with this? I'd rather not have to go through the trouble of getting iTunes running under Wine. I did try using Amarok as Chris Gow had suggested, but gave up as its interface, like so many KDE apps, is completely inscrutable to me. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Bender: I get a good vibe from this place. Nice long dinner table, quiet well-behaved spiders, graveyards adjacent.... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 07:06:24 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:06:24 -0400 Subject: iPod Video In-Reply-To: <20071031024642.53435f98-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071031024642.53435f98@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071031030624.645dcd93@node1.freeyourmachine.org> JoeHill wrote: > Got my flashy new iPod Classic today, it's really sweet :-) > > Anyhow, got a friend to load some stuff on it while I was at work using > iTunes, then when I came home decided to load my music collection and some > videos. Fired up gtkpod and loaded some music and thought I would try > transferring some mp4 video files as well. > > Gtkpod did not complain and showed that it had transferred the files > successfully and updated the database on the device. However, now when I > access the iPod's menu, it shows no available files at all... > > The device and gtkpod both show that some storage is being used on the iPod, > but none of it can be accessed from the iPod menu. > > Anyone have some experience with this? I'd rather not have to go through the > trouble of getting iTunes running under Wine. > > I did try using Amarok as Chris Gow had suggested, but gave up as its > interface, like so many KDE apps, is completely inscrutable to me. Oh, those fargin bastages at Apple... "As recently reported on Slashdot, Apple, in its infinite wisdom, has added a checksum to the iPod database apparently to restrict non-iTunes products (like Amarok via libgpod) from having the ability to add music. To me this sounds pretty familiar. This is the same thing they did to iTunes 4.5 to make it harder for other apps to read off their DAAP shares, they changed it again in iTunes 7; open source apps are still unable to read iTunes 7 DAAP shares." http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/496-iPod-Classic-Will-Be-Supported.html So it looks like I have to either get iTunes running or get the latest version of gtkpod or Amarok. -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ Fry: You gotta help me, Bender. How can I prove I'm human? Bender: You could drop dead. That'd show 'em. Fry: I don't wanna. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 08:31:55 2007 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:31:55 -0400 Subject: iPod Video -- Success! In-Reply-To: <20071031030624.645dcd93-RM84zztHLDxPRJHzEJhQzbcIhZkZ0gYS2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org> References: <20071031024642.53435f98@node1.freeyourmachine.org> <20071031030624.645dcd93@node1.freeyourmachine.org> Message-ID: <20071031043155.6233e389@node1.freeyourmachine.org> JoeHill wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > > Got my flashy new iPod Classic today, it's really sweet :-) > > > > Anyhow, got a friend to load some stuff on it while I was at work using > > iTunes, then when I came home decided to load my music collection and some > > videos. Fired up gtkpod and loaded some music and thought I would try > > transferring some mp4 video files as well. > > > > Gtkpod did not complain and showed that it had transferred the files > > successfully and updated the database on the device. However, now when I > > access the iPod's menu, it shows no available files at all... > > > > The device and gtkpod both show that some storage is being used on the iPod, > > but none of it can be accessed from the iPod menu. > > > > Anyone have some experience with this? I'd rather not have to go through the > > trouble of getting iTunes running under Wine. > > > > I did try using Amarok as Chris Gow had suggested, but gave up as its > > interface, like so many KDE apps, is completely inscrutable to me. > > Oh, those fargin bastages at Apple... > > "As recently reported on Slashdot, Apple, in its infinite wisdom, has added a > checksum to the iPod database apparently to restrict non-iTunes products (like > Amarok via libgpod) from having the ability to add music. To me this sounds > pretty familiar. This is the same thing they did to iTunes 4.5 to make it > harder for other apps to read off their DAAP shares, they changed it again in > iTunes 7; open source apps are still unable to read iTunes 7 DAAP shares." > > http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/496-iPod-Classic-Will-Be-Supported.html > > So it looks like I have to either get iTunes running or get the latest version > of gtkpod or Amarok. All hail the gtkpod devel team :-) Just in case anyone else needs this info: 0. Install libmp4v2-devel so that gtkpod is build with support for...well, mp4. 1. Grab libgpod svn: svn co https://gtkpod.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/gtkpod/libgpod/trunk libgpod *Important* read the README.sysinfo file and follow the instructions. ...then build and install the usual way (I used ./configure --prefix=/usr) 2. Grab gtkpod svn: svn co https://gtkpod.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/gtkpod/gtkpod/trunk gtkpod ...and build and install the usual way. You should be good to go. I know I am. Woot! -- JoeHill ++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm a fraud - a poor, lazy, sexy fraud." -Bender -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 11:31:57 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:31:57 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20071031113157.GA12660@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 04:14:29PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote > With the widespread popularity of JavaScript-based application > frameworks, people *MUST* have support for it in their browsers in > order to be able to use the web-based services that they are CHOOSING > to use. s/JavaScript-based application/Active-X on IE running on Windows/ At some point, you have to decide that increased whizbang features are not worth the increased security problems. It's just a question of where you draw the line. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 11:36:15 2007 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:36:15 -0400 Subject: ECMAScript ("Javascript") Version 4 - FALSE ALARM In-Reply-To: <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0710221304o35563b1lcfeb8cb3136970d@mail.gmail.com> <20071027074427.GA7030@waltdnes.org> <99a6c38f0710270800t5d9c93b6t843d7c8b73d3396e@mail.gmail.com> <67D7294B-8224-415C-84DC-49EDE552EBBD@mozilla.org> <20071030051131.GA9786@waltdnes.org> <7ac602420710300018g6eb38855i1a59661ca68330e7@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710300947g3670c3b0w44efa9260ae80ffd@mail.gmail.com> <7ac602420710301022q66d1e177x384bf66d6994b3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071031113615.GC12660@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:22:25PM -0400, Ian Petersen wrote > Bugs in the language are different from bugs in an arbitrary > interpreter for that language and, more to the point, Walt was > denigrating the _language_, not its interpreter. I was going after the general concept of a more powerful scripting language executing on my machine. Whether it's JS4, or Silverlight, or Flash with the next version of ActionScript is beside the point. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 Q. Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Microsoft security? A. I think it would be a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 14:41:35 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:41:35 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <4727A881.207-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:56:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > [root at p733 chris]# /var/run/cups/printcap > bash: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory > [root at p733 chris]# cat /var/run/cups/printcap > cat: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory > > I don't have that file. The only thing in the cups directory is > cups.sock and another directory (certs which contains nothing): > > [root at p733 chris]# ls -a /var/run/cups/certs > . .. 0 Maybe fedora picked a different location for it. Or maybe your cups really believes it has no printers configured. You can also check the printer list on http://localhost:631/printers -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 14:42:31 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:42:31 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <4727B105.8070200-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 06:32:37PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > [root at p733 chris]# lpq -PPSC_1600_series > PSC_1600_series is ready > no entries > [root at p733 chris]# lpoptions -d PSC_1600_series > job-sheets=none,none printer-info='HP PSC 1600 Foomatic/hpijs' > printer-is-accepting-jobs=1 printer-is-shared=1 > printer-make-and-model='HP PSC 1600 Foomatic/hpijs (recommended)' > printer-state=3 printer-state-change-time=1193782101 > printer-state-reasons=none printer-type=36892 > [root at p733 chris]# Well that should have set the default. If lpq now works without arguments then you should be set. You can also set default paper sizes and such using lpoptions. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:16:26 2007 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <20071031144231.GQ27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> I've been using an old HP Vectra VL (PII-266) as a monitor to keep tabs on the systems in my rack. Recently a co-worker gave me a used 21 inch monitor (IBM P260) to expand the visual real estate on my system. I'm enjoying the extra desktop space but the refresh rate is driving me nuts. (60 Hz). I'd like to upgrade the video card but don't want to buy one that won't work. It will have to be PCI, support 1600x1200 at 85Hz and run with the existing PSU (124W). I tried a Radeon 9250(64-bit) that I had in the office but the system wouldn't post with it in. I've been looking at either a Radeon 7000 (no fan) or a Radeon 9000 (with fan). Do any of you have recommendations? I'm running a dual boot system of Puppy Linux and Ubuntu 7.10, but with video cards as old as the one's I'm looking at, drivers shouldn't be an issue. Thanks, Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:32:33 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: SPF question Message-ID: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> Hey all, So I ran into a problem with my Sender Policy Framework DNS entry. My message was rejected because of my SPF entry in my DNS zone file because I used my ISP's SMTP server. My question is, how do you setup an SPF entry when email users of your domain are literally all over the world? It's impractical to impossible to create a list of all the different MTAs my users may use, and given that many ISPs now block port 110 to any server other than their own SMTP server(s), asking non-techy users to use non-standard ports when setting up their email program is also not feasible. In case it helps, this is my SPF for my alteeve.com domain: alteeve.com. in txt "v=spf1 ip4:192.139.81.0/8 a mx mx:alteeve.com -all" Is there an alternate to SPF I should look at? Thanks all! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:41:59 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:41:59 -0700 Subject: Insignia (NS-DV4G) and Linux Message-ID: <3a97ef0710310841x1546dc0cw8abc49bd7ee81ff3@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, Awhile back I picked up an Insignia (NS-DV4G) mp3 player, as I had heard here in the LUG that it's got fairly decent Linux compatibility and offers various features I wanted (playlists, expansion slot, etc). As a general-use mp3 player it works well, but I'm having a bugger of a time getting playlists or MTP (media transfer protocol) communication working in 'nix. I've tried various apps, including Amarok (which in current versions does have options for MTP devices, but doesn't detect the player as such). Can anyone with one of these gadgets suggest a good way to get playlists working and/or MTP transfers? Thanks, TJA -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:48:16 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:48:16 -0400 Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <20071031154816.GR27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 11:16:26AM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > I've been using an old HP Vectra VL (PII-266) as a monitor to keep tabs on > the systems in my rack. Recently a co-worker gave me a used 21 inch > monitor (IBM P260) to expand the visual real estate on my system. I'm > enjoying the extra desktop space but the refresh rate is driving me nuts. > (60 Hz). I'd like to upgrade the video card but don't want to buy one that > won't work. It will have to be PCI, support 1600x1200 at 85Hz and run with > the existing PSU (124W). What is the current video card? What kind of system has a 124W PS? > I tried a Radeon 9250(64-bit) that I had in the office but the system > wouldn't post with it in. I've been looking at either a Radeon 7000 (no > fan) or a Radeon 9000 (with fan). The BIOS didn't like it? > Do any of you have recommendations? > > I'm running a dual boot system of Puppy Linux and Ubuntu 7.10, but with > video cards as old as the one's I'm looking at, drivers shouldn't be an > issue. Getting a PCI video card is getting harder. Getting one that uses low enough power might be nearly imposible, especially since it has to be high end enough to drive the display at that resolution and refresh. My recommendation is to do one of: 1) Live with it, since hopefully you don't look at the screen very often. Costs nothing except possibly your sanity. 2) Reduce the resolution to 1280x960 or 1152x864 to get decent refresh. Costs you some screen space but no money. 3) Buy a better computer with a sane power supply. You can pick up "off lease" business machines with P3 for about $100 and P4 for about $200 which will probably drive the screen just fine, and will be much better performing machines than the P2 crap box. Costs a bit of money and possibly uses a bit more electricity (not that running a 21" CRT is cheap). 4) Buy a 20" flat panel instead so that 1600x1200 at 60hz is in fact perfect. Dell has a 2007FP model that is 1600x1200 for $389. So cost quite a bit, and who would want such a nice screen on a monitoring machine. Doesn't make sense unless you actually look at it a lot. This would recuce the power expense by quite a bit over the 21" CRT of course. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:52:47 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:52:47 -0400 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: <4728A011.1070103-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 11:32:33AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > So I ran into a problem with my Sender Policy Framework DNS entry. My > message was rejected because of my SPF entry in my DNS zone file because > I used my ISP's SMTP server. > > My question is, how do you setup an SPF entry when email users of > your domain are literally all over the world? It's impractical to > impossible to create a list of all the different MTAs my users may use, > and given that many ISPs now block port 110 to any server other than > their own SMTP server(s), asking non-techy users to use non-standard > ports when setting up their email program is also not feasible. > > In case it helps, this is my SPF for my alteeve.com domain: > > alteeve.com. in txt "v=spf1 ip4:192.139.81.0/8 a mx mx:alteeve.com -all" > > Is there an alternate to SPF I should look at? SPF probably makes great sense to large ISPs who can't imagine users wanting to do email from anywhere else or run their own domains. SPF sucks for actual mail users. I guess you could setup a webmail system for users of your domain to use for all email, or you could in fact configure them to use a different port when talking to your mail server and always send all mail through that mail server for your domain. Other than that, can't think of anything that would work. I think SPF sucks. :) If I can't mail someone because they insist on SPF, well that's their loss as far as I am concerned. It ranks up there with sender verification systems. The policy is: Do not make _me_ solve _your_ spam problem. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 16:28:43 2007 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:28:43 -0400 Subject: Insignia (NS-DV4G) and Linux In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710310841x1546dc0cw8abc49bd7ee81ff3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710310841x1546dc0cw8abc49bd7ee81ff3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4549c08f0710310928k36b07d83w794b2817bac86ea4@mail.gmail.com> On 31/10/2007, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Hello All, > > > Awhile back I picked up an Insignia (NS-DV4G) mp3 player, as I had > heard here in the LUG that it's got fairly decent Linux compatibility > and offers various features I wanted (playlists, expansion slot, etc). > As a general-use mp3 player it works well, but I'm having a bugger of > a time getting playlists or MTP (media transfer protocol) > communication working in 'nix. I've tried various apps, including > Amarok (which in current versions does have options for MTP devices, > but doesn't detect the player as such). Can anyone with one of these > gadgets suggest a good way to get playlists working and/or MTP > transfers? I use gnomad2, which supports playlist editing and MTP for my Creative Zen player. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 16:29:50 2007 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <20071031154816.GR27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031154816.GR27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <28831.192.168.20.1.1193848190.squirrel@nray.ca> Len, Thanks for the feedback. > What is the current video card? What kind of system has a 124W PS? The current video card is a nVidia TNT2 (16MB) that I had kicking around. The system is an HP Vectra VL box (desktop model). > The BIOS didn't like it? Not sure why it didn't POST. My guess is either: 1) because it was a 64-bit card the system arch didn't understand it or 2) because it's power draw was so high it couldn't get to the setup screen > Getting a PCI video card is getting harder. Getting one that uses low > enough power might be nearly imposible, especially since it has to be high > end enough to drive the display at that resolution and refresh. As for finding the card, looking at the brisk trade in low end video cards on eBay I don't think that will be too difficult. The challenge as I see it is to figure out which brand/model card to buy. The thought of buying a new system had crossed my mind but I was hoping to spend $20-$30 on a new card instead of $100 on a new system. Thanks again, Stephen On Wed, October 31, 2007 11:48, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 11:16:26AM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > >> I've been using an old HP Vectra VL (PII-266) as a monitor to keep tabs >> on the systems in my rack. Recently a co-worker gave me a used 21 inch >> monitor (IBM P260) to expand the visual real estate on my system. I'm >> enjoying the extra desktop space but the refresh rate is driving me >> nuts. (60 Hz). I'd like to upgrade the video card but don't want to buy >> one that won't work. It will have to be PCI, support 1600x1200 at 85Hz >> and run with the existing PSU (124W). > > What is the current video card? What kind of system has a 124W PS? > > >> I tried a Radeon 9250(64-bit) that I had in the office but the system >> wouldn't post with it in. I've been looking at either a Radeon 7000 (no >> fan) or a Radeon 9000 (with fan). > > The BIOS didn't like it? > > >> Do any of you have recommendations? >> >> >> I'm running a dual boot system of Puppy Linux and Ubuntu 7.10, but with >> video cards as old as the one's I'm looking at, drivers shouldn't be >> an issue. > > Getting a PCI video card is getting harder. Getting one that uses low > enough power might be nearly imposible, especially since it has to be high > end enough to drive the display at that resolution and refresh. > > My recommendation is to do one of: > > > 1) Live with it, since hopefully you don't look at the screen very > often. Costs nothing except possibly your sanity. > > 2) Reduce the resolution to 1280x960 or 1152x864 to get decent refresh. > Costs you some screen space but no money. > > > 3) Buy a better computer with a sane power supply. You can pick up "off > lease" business machines with P3 for about $100 and P4 for about $200 which > will probably drive the screen just fine, and will be much better > performing machines than the P2 crap box. Costs a bit of money and > possibly uses a bit more electricity (not that running a 21" CRT is > cheap). > > 4) Buy a 20" flat panel instead so that 1600x1200 at 60hz is in fact > perfect. Dell has a 2007FP model that is 1600x1200 for $389. So cost > quite a bit, and who would want such a nice screen on a monitoring > machine. Doesn't make sense unless you actually look at it a lot. This > would recuce the power expense by quite a bit over the 21" CRT of course. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 16:41:00 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:41:00 +0000 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: <20071031155247.GS27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007 3:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > SPF probably makes great sense to large ISPs who can't imagine users > wanting to do email from anywhere else or run their own domains. SPF > sucks for actual mail users. SPF *may* also make sense for large entities that: a) Send out a lot of mail, and b) Are targets for fraudulent mail EBay and PayPal would fit into that category, as would banks. It seems not too outrageous for them to try to tell the world things like: "If you get mail claiming to be from our domain that doesn't contain our digital signature, then we're willing to suggest that it is fraudulent and may be safely thrown away." or "If you get mail claiming to be from our domain that was not sent from one of our IP addresses, then it did not pass through proper channels and may be safely thrown away." But that certainly imposes some burdens on the flexibility of one's mail management. For the "digital signature" case, for instance, it implies that people in the organization MUST pass their messages through a mail server that knows how to generate the digital signatures. If those servers are pretty locked down, which is appropriate, then this implies some possible inconvenience in getting outgoing mail signed. This doesn't seem like something that everyone would want to apply to their mail. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 17:30:33 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:30:33 -0400 Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <28831.192.168.20.1.1193848190.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031154816.GR27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28831.192.168.20.1.1193848190.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <20071031173033.GT27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 12:29:50PM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > The current video card is a nVidia TNT2 (16MB) that I had kicking around. > The system is an HP Vectra VL box (desktop model). Hmm, the TNT2 usually had a pretty decent ramdac. My 32MB TNT2 had no problem driving 1600x1200 at 85Hz. I suppose it is possible a really really cheap 16MB card might have seriously skimped on the ramdac and doesn't have the needed bandwidth (although 240MHz should give you 1600x1200 at 85Hz). Modern video cards tend to have 400MHz ramdacs. That can drive 2048x1536 at plenty quite well. Could you post your X log file. Perhaps it will give some indication why the refresh rate is sucking. > Not sure why it didn't POST. My guess is either: > 1) because it was a 64-bit card the system arch didn't understand it > or No it is a 32bit PCI card, with a 64bit video chip. The Rage128 was a 128bit video chip. That just means the memory interface is that wide, or that it works on that many bits at a time. It's just marketing really. After all the latest nvidia 8800GTX could be said to be 128 threads * 128 bits (assuming 4 32bit floast to handle RGBa with floats), or maybe even 256 bits (I know there is at least work towards working with doubles in the shader engines), which by some old measures would make for a very big number of bits. > 2) because it's power draw was so high it couldn't get to the setup screen Much more likely. > As for finding the card, looking at the brisk trade in low end video cards > on eBay I don't think that will be too difficult. The challenge as I see > it is to figure out which brand/model card to buy. > > The thought of buying a new system had crossed my mind but I was hoping to > spend $20-$30 on a new card instead of $100 on a new system. The problem is finding one that can drive the screen while still being that low end. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 17:35:26 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:35:26 -0400 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071031173526.GU27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 04:41:00PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > SPF *may* also make sense for large entities that: > a) Send out a lot of mail, and > b) Are targets for fraudulent mail > > EBay and PayPal would fit into that category, as would banks. > > It seems not too outrageous for them to try to tell the world things like: > > "If you get mail claiming to be from our domain that doesn't contain > our digital signature, then we're willing to suggest that it is > fraudulent and may be safely thrown away." Well since not everyone insists on checking SPF, there are plenty of ways for those scams to get through anyhow. A much better way to deal with those phishing emails is to make people less stupid. Not sure how much luck we will have on that. Perhaps I am overly optimistic in the average ability of the population as a whole. > "If you get mail claiming to be from our domain that was not sent from > one of our IP addresses, then it did not pass through proper channels > and may be safely thrown away." > > But that certainly imposes some burdens on the flexibility of one's > mail management. For the "digital signature" case, for instance, it > implies that people in the organization MUST pass their messages > through a mail server that knows how to generate the digital > signatures. If those servers are pretty locked down, which is > appropriate, then this implies some possible inconvenience in getting > outgoing mail signed. > > This doesn't seem like something that everyone would want to apply to > their mail. Well it is a trade off between convinience and control. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 18:48:33 2007 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:48:33 +0000 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: <20071031173526.GU27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031173526.GU27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007 5:35 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 04:41:00PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > > SPF *may* also make sense for large entities that: > > a) Send out a lot of mail, and > > b) Are targets for fraudulent mail > > > > EBay and PayPal would fit into that category, as would banks. > > > > It seems not too outrageous for them to try to tell the world things like: > > > > "If you get mail claiming to be from our domain that doesn't contain > > our digital signature, then we're willing to suggest that it is > > fraudulent and may be safely thrown away." > > Well since not everyone insists on checking SPF, there are plenty of > ways for those scams to get through anyhow. Sure, but it's not a zero-sum game. If this mechanism meant that those users of Yahoo, Google, and Hotmail were no longer "pestered" by fraudulent email from a dozen SPFed sources, that would remove millions of messages per week, and presumably eliminate some non-zero quantity of frauds from being perpetrated. It might not help you, but it would be a help. > A much better way to deal > with those phishing emails is to make people less stupid. Not sure how > much luck we will have on that. Perhaps I am overly optimistic in the > average ability of the population as a whole. The thing is, the Nigerian "419 scams" date back decades, and evidently continue to be effective because of the combination of greed and gullibility. They were happening before email existed. The essential problems are not technical ones... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "... memory leaks are quite acceptable in many applications ..." (Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, page 220) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:00:49 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:00:49 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071031144135.GP27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:56:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> [root at p733 chris]# /var/run/cups/printcap >> bash: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory >> [root at p733 chris]# cat /var/run/cups/printcap >> cat: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory >> >> I don't have that file. The only thing in the cups directory is >> cups.sock and another directory (certs which contains nothing): >> >> [root at p733 chris]# ls -a /var/run/cups/certs >> . .. 0 >> > > Maybe fedora picked a different location for it. Or maybe your cups > really believes it has no printers configured. You can also check the > printer list on http://localhost:631/printers > I have aprinter and it prints locally and I print to it from three other computers around the house. It's at 192.168.0.2:631/printers/PSC_1600_series Maybe I should just type all that into the printer dialogue box in xpdf. Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:08:47 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:08:47 -0400 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031173526.GU27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20071031190847.GV27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 06:48:33PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > The thing is, the Nigerian "419 scams" date back decades, and > evidently continue to be effective because of the combination of greed > and gullibility. They were happening before email existed. > > The essential problems are not technical ones... Exactly. I also don't think a technical solution is going to solve it either. Maybe there has to be a test to take before you are allowed to use email. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:11:34 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:11:34 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <4728D0E1.9050609-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071031191134.GW27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:00:49PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have aprinter and it prints locally and I print to it from three other > computers around the house. It's at 192.168.0.2:631/printers/PSC_1600_series > > Maybe I should just type all that into the printer dialogue box in xpdf. If you can do 'lpq' and get status of PSC_1600_series, then doing lpr should work too, assuming you have cupsys's lpr and not some other print system's copy of lpr. Both lpr and lpq are bsd style commands. lp and lpstat would be the sysv equivelants. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:15:19 2007 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:19 -0400 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: <20071031190847.GV27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031173526.GU27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031190847.GV27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4728D447.9050600@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 06:48:33PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: >> The thing is, the Nigerian "419 scams" date back decades, and >> evidently continue to be effective because of the combination of greed >> and gullibility. They were happening before email existed. >> >> The essential problems are not technical ones... > > Exactly. I also don't think a technical solution is going to solve it > either. Maybe there has to be a test to take before you are allowed to > use email. :) All of the valid topics you both bring up aside (and thank you for them!), but reason for using SPF came about because a *massive* flood of bounced messages started coming in to my 'admin at ...' email claiming that user's of my domain were sending out messages (from IPs in eastern countries). I needed a way to tell these other mail servers that these messages where, in fact, not coming from me or my users. Now I realize the flaw in saying "Only validate email coming from this range of IPs" because of legit foreign users, but at the times it looked like a great solutions and did indeed bring the flood down to the usual trickle. So back to my original question; is there a way, shy of creating a big list of IPs/ISPs my users may route their SMTP mail through, to tell other MTAs what is legit from my users? I'm coming to the sad realization that, no, probably not. *sigh* Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:08:44 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:08:44 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <4728D0E1.9050609-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <4728D2BC.8080600@chrisaitken.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:56:17PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: >> >>> [root at p733 chris]# /var/run/cups/printcap >>> bash: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory >>> [root at p733 chris]# cat /var/run/cups/printcap >>> cat: /var/run/cups/printcap: No such file or directory >>> >>> I don't have that file. The only thing in the cups directory is >>> cups.sock and another directory (certs which contains nothing): >>> >>> [root at p733 chris]# ls -a /var/run/cups/certs >>> . .. 0 >>> >> >> Maybe fedora picked a different location for it. Or maybe your cups >> really believes it has no printers configured. You can also check the >> printer list on http://localhost:631/printers >> > I have aprinter and it prints locally and I print to it from three > other computers around the house. It's at > 192.168.0.2:631/printers/PSC_1600_series > > Maybe I should just type all that into the printer dialogue box in xpdf. I just tried that by the way. I typed 'http://localhost:631/printers/PSC_1600_series' into the 'Print with command' dialogue box in xpdf and it still didn't print. > > Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:18:23 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:18:23 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071031191134.GW27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> <20071031191134.GW27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4728D4FF.1070503@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:00:49PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> I have aprinter and it prints locally and I print to it from three other >> computers around the house. It's at 192.168.0.2:631/printers/PSC_1600_series >> >> Maybe I should just type all that into the printer dialogue box in xpdf. >> > > If you can do 'lpq' and get status of PSC_1600_series, then doing lpr > should work too, assuming you have cupsys's lpr and not some other print > system's copy of lpr. Both lpr and lpq are bsd style commands. lp and > lpstat would be the sysv equivelants. > Well, whaddya know? lp works. All that time all I had to do was remove the 'r' form 'lpr'. :) Thanks, Chris > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:28:09 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:28:09 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <4728D4FF.1070503-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> <20071031191134.GW27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D4FF.1070503@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: <20071031192809.GX27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:18:23PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > Well, whaddya know? lp works. All that time all I had to do was remove > the 'r' form 'lpr'. In that case I would find out which package provides lpr, and if it is NOT cups, then remove the package and install the correct cups package instead. On debian this is cupsys-bsd. lp and lpstat is provided by cupsys-client. Fedora would probably name things entirely different, so I have no idea. rpm -qf `which lpr` should give an idea which package is responsible. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:29:56 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:29:56 -0400 Subject: SPF question In-Reply-To: <4728D447.9050600-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4728A011.1070103@alteeve.com> <20071031155247.GS27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031173526.GU27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20071031190847.GV27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D447.9050600@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20071031192956.GY27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:15:19PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > All of the valid topics you both bring up aside (and thank you for > them!), but reason for using SPF came about because a *massive* flood of > bounced messages started coming in to my 'admin at ...' email claiming that > user's of my domain were sending out messages (from IPs in eastern > countries). I needed a way to tell these other mail servers that these > messages where, in fact, not coming from me or my users. > > Now I realize the flaw in saying "Only validate email coming from this > range of IPs" because of legit foreign users, but at the times it looked > like a great solutions and did indeed bring the flood down to the usual > trickle. > > So back to my original question; is there a way, shy of creating a big > list of IPs/ISPs my users may route their SMTP mail through, to tell > other MTAs what is legit from my users? > > I'm coming to the sad realization that, no, probably not. *sigh* Nope, I can't think of a way either. Simply having your users authenticate and connect back to you somehow to send their mail would work around that, but is more complicated to configure the client for. As long as morons keep buying stuff from spammers, we just can't win. :( -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 19:49:08 2007 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <20071031173033.GT27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031154816.GR27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28831.192.168.20.1.1193848190.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031173033.GT27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <29312.192.168.20.1.1193860148.squirrel@nray.ca> Len, Part of the reason my refresh rate is sucking is that I couldn't get xorg to run (in Puppy) with this video card (TNT2) so I've been using Xvesa which near as I can tell doesn't allow for changing the refresh rate. I can get xorg to run with ubuntu 7.10 but can only get 800x600 resolution. As a result most of the time I'm using puppy. Stephen On Wed, October 31, 2007 13:30, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Could you post your X log file. Perhaps it will give some indication > why the refresh rate is sucking. -- Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 20:11:46 2007 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:11:46 -0400 Subject: Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <29312.192.168.20.1.1193860148.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727B105.8070200@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144231.GQ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28669.192.168.20.1.1193843786.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031154816.GR27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <28831.192.168.20.1.1193848190.squirrel@nray.ca> <20071031173033.GT27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <29312.192.168.20.1.1193860148.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <20071031201146.GZ27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:49:08PM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Part of the reason my refresh rate is sucking is that I couldn't get xorg > to run (in Puppy) with this video card (TNT2) so I've been using Xvesa > which near as I can tell doesn't allow for changing the refresh rate. > > I can get xorg to run with ubuntu 7.10 but can only get 800x600 > resolution. As a result most of the time I'm using puppy. The 'nv' driver should run that card perfectly. Vesa certainly won't work well since vesa always picked shitty refresh rates for their modes. As long as you do not boot with the console using some graphical mode, you should be able to configure X to just use the nv driver and run at 1600x1200 and it should probably even pick up DDC info from the monitor and pick the right refresh rate by itself. If you want you can include the xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log in a message and I can have a look at it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 21:24:48 2007 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:24:48 -0700 Subject: Insignia (NS-DV4G) and Linux In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0710310841x1546dc0cw8abc49bd7ee81ff3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0710310841x1546dc0cw8abc49bd7ee81ff3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0710311424l651d8946q87c7335d5f94cc05@mail.gmail.com> Responding to myself here: Grabbed the CVS for libmtp and compiling that from source, as well as a source install of amarok. Looks like between the two of them they now manage to detect the insignia player and manage songs/playlists. I also added the following udev rule to /etc/udev/rules.d/libmtp.rules ... #Insignia NS-DV4G SYSFS{idVendor}=="19ff", SYSFS{idProduct}=="0303", SYMLINK+="libmtp-%k", MODE="660", GROUP="audio" If anyone else happens to have this player, I hope this might be useful to them. On Oct 31, 2007 8:41 AM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Hello All, > > > Awhile back I picked up an Insignia (NS-DV4G) mp3 player, as I had > heard here in the LUG that it's got fairly decent Linux compatibility > and offers various features I wanted (playlists, expansion slot, etc). > As a general-use mp3 player it works well, but I'm having a bugger of > a time getting playlists or MTP (media transfer protocol) > communication working in 'nix. I've tried various apps, including > Amarok (which in current versions does have options for MTP devices, > but doesn't detect the player as such). Can anyone with one of these > gadgets suggest a good way to get playlists working and/or MTP > transfers? > > > > Thanks, > > > TJA > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 477-1784 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 477-1784 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 21:20:50 2007 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:20:50 -0400 Subject: printing .pdf In-Reply-To: <20071031192809.GX27645-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <47274805.2060205@chrisaitken.net> <20071030153120.GL27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <47278610.2070808@chrisaitken.net> <20071030211554.GO27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4727A881.207@chrisaitken.net> <20071031144135.GP27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D0E1.9050609@chrisaitken.net> <20071031191134.GW27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4728D4FF.1070503@chrisaitken.net> <20071031192809.GX27645@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4728F1B2.6020305@chrisaitken.net> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:18:23PM -0400, Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Well, whaddya know? lp works. All that time all I had to do was remove >> the 'r' from 'lpr'. >> > > In that case I would find out which package provides lpr, and if it is > NOT cups, then remove the package and install the correct cups package > instead. > So that cups will print from the lpr command? You understand I'm able to print from xpdf now, right? > On debian this is cupsys-bsd. lp and lpstat is provided by > cupsys-client. Fedora would probably name things entirely different, so > I have no idea. > > rpm -qf `which lpr` should give an idea which package is responsible. > [root at p733 chris]# rpm -qf `which lpr` cups-1.2.12-4.fc7 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists