From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 01:13:45 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:13:45 -0400
Subject: As I was saying...
In-Reply-To: <20060527131111.GA11915-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060527131111.GA11915@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20060601011345.GA14881@waltdnes.org>

On Sat, May 27, 2006 at 09:11:11AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote

>   That's right Google will *PAY* Dell to load its software.
> And so will Symantec (90-day free trial anti-virus) as will various
> other outfits.  In the final analysis, Dell probably makes more
> from promotional loads than it pays to Microsoft for OEM Windows.
> In the consumer market, with razor-thin margins, every additional
> dollar helps.
> 
>   Dell doesn't care if you wipe Windows and install a real OS on
> the day you get your new PC.  Dell still gets its money from the
> outfits who ask for their software to be loaded on your PC.  And
> Microsoft can honestly tell the us DOJ that it is no longer
> strong-arming Dell to load Windows on all its PCs.

  See http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6078219.html for some of the
problems associated with all the pre-loaded trial-ware garbage, e.g.
new machines that take minutes to boot, and are painfully slow.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
--
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From lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 03:17:36 2006
From: lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Yang)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <20060601011345.GA14881-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060601011345.GA14881@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20060601031736.72549.qmail@web52008.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello All,
   
  I have installed a new linux server on the network a few weeks back. It has RH Enterprise Server installed. Now I notice that sometimes, other linux workstations on the network are having difficulities pinging it. The problem is kind of on-and-off, however, if i ping the new server from the server runs dns, it never had any problem. 
   
  In addition, there are a few windows workstaions on the newtwork and when i ping the new server from them, i got a slight delay and it pings.
   
  Any idea what may be the cause.
   
  Many thanks, 
   
  Michael

		
---------------------------------
Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls  with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 04:10:41 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 00:10:41 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
Message-ID: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>

I use aterm rather than xterm (or konsole or rxvt or ...) because it
supports pseudo-transparency and is light-weight.  I have one minor
but nagging problem with it.

When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
(back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.  This can
be a real pain, as it makes the man pages hard to read and throws off
searches: the search target is still found, but isn't necessarily
displayed in the part of the man page you're seeing - so you have to
search for your search.

I've tried several things, such as the LESSCHARSET environment
variable (interesting effects, no solution) and "man -7 <progname>"
(no effect?).  Since less itself has no issue with `, ', or -, I have
to assume that the problem is introduced by the ?roff processing that
takes place before the page is displayed.  But I haven't the slightest
idea how to fix this.

Has anybody encountered this?  Any solutions?  Even if you don't have
an answer, verification of the problem on other distros/OSes would be
appreciated.  I'm running Ubuntu Breezy, but I seem to recall having a
very similar problem under a Debian and possibly even RedHat, and I
just verified equally bad behaviour under FC5.  rxvt (from which aterm
was forked/spawned) has very similar issues.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 05:16:35 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:16:35 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <20060601031736.72549.qmail-UCq1f0BmL0mA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060601031736.72549.qmail@web52008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jadu.o@kevnk.ohtz.aa.ij>



On Wed, 31 May 2006, Michael Yang wrote:

> Hello All,
>
>  I have installed a new linux server on the network a few weeks back. It has RH Enterprise Server installed. Now I notice that sometimes, other linux workstations on the network are having difficulities pinging it. The problem is kind of on-and-off, however, if i ping the new server from the server runs dns, it never had any problem.
>
>  In addition, there are a few windows workstaions on the newtwork and when i ping the new server from them, i got a slight delay and it pings.

see if there is a difference pinging by name or by ip.

Peter
--
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From lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 13:25:50 2006
From: lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Yang)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <jadu.o-S80Ddktwz6hCLFn+RhHjpw@public.gmane.org>
References: <jadu.o@kevnk.ohtz.aa.ij>
Message-ID: <20060601132550.74976.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you Peter, it does the same ping ip and name.

Peter <plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org> wrote:  

On Wed, 31 May 2006, Michael Yang wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I have installed a new linux server on the network a few weeks back. It has RH Enterprise Server installed. Now I notice that sometimes, other linux workstations on the network are having difficulities pinging it. The problem is kind of on-and-off, however, if i ping the new server from the server runs dns, it never had any problem.
>
> In addition, there are a few windows workstaions on the newtwork and when i ping the new server from them, i got a slight delay and it pings.

see if there is a difference pinging by name or by ip.

Peter
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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---------------------------------
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 13:30:36 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:30:36 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060601133036.GA23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 12:10:41AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> I use aterm rather than xterm (or konsole or rxvt or ...) because it
> supports pseudo-transparency and is light-weight.  I have one minor
> but nagging problem with it.
> 
> When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
> systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
> (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
> caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.  This can
> be a real pain, as it makes the man pages hard to read and throws off
> searches: the search target is still found, but isn't necessarily
> displayed in the part of the man page you're seeing - so you have to
> search for your search.
> 
> I've tried several things, such as the LESSCHARSET environment
> variable (interesting effects, no solution) and "man -7 <progname>"
> (no effect?).  Since less itself has no issue with `, ', or -, I have
> to assume that the problem is introduced by the ?roff processing that
> takes place before the page is displayed.  But I haven't the slightest
> idea how to fix this.
> 
> Has anybody encountered this?  Any solutions?  Even if you don't have
> an answer, verification of the problem on other distros/OSes would be
> appreciated.  I'm running Ubuntu Breezy, but I seem to recall having a
> very similar problem under a Debian and possibly even RedHat, and I
> just verified equally bad behaviour under FC5.  rxvt (from which aterm
> was forked/spawned) has very similar issues.

I know some characters MUST be escaped in man pages.  Some
viewers/processors seem to ignore the errors if the man page code
doesn't make sense, while others just screw up.  The characters you
mention certainly are among the ones I recall should be escaped.  Most
likely you are just seeing problems with badly written man pages.  I
have seen a number of man pages fixed with patches in debian packages
due to the same kind of screwup.

For example:

.\" DO NOT MODIFY THIS FILE!  It was generated by help2man 1.33.
.TH LS "1" "July 2004" "ls (coreutils) 5.2.1" "User Commands"
.SH NAME
ls \- list directory contents
.SH SYNOPSIS
etc...

Note how the - has to be escaped with a \?  If it isn't some man page
processors will get confused since the see a - without the proper
options around it.  Maybe that turns into the odd characters on some
systems.  The man page syntax seems odd, but I have never actually tried
to figure it out either.

Len Sorensen
--
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From shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 15:07:37 2006
From: shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:07:37 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606011107.37991.shrike@heinous.org>

On Thursday 01 June 2006 00:10, Giles Orr wrote:
> I use aterm rather than xterm (or konsole or rxvt or ...) because it
> supports pseudo-transparency and is light-weight.  I have one minor
> but nagging problem with it.
>
> When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
> systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
> (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
> caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.  This can
> be a real pain, as it makes the man pages hard to read and throws off
> searches: the search target is still found, but isn't necessarily
> displayed in the part of the man page you're seeing - so you have to
> search for your search.
>
> I've tried several things, such as the LESSCHARSET environment
> variable (interesting effects, no solution) and "man -7 <progname>"
> (no effect?).  Since less itself has no issue with `, ', or -, I have
> to assume that the problem is introduced by the ?roff processing that
> takes place before the page is displayed.  But I haven't the slightest
> idea how to fix this.
>
> Has anybody encountered this?  Any solutions?  Even if you don't have
> an answer, verification of the problem on other distros/OSes would be
> appreciated.  I'm running Ubuntu Breezy, but I seem to recall having a
> very similar problem under a Debian and possibly even RedHat, and I
> just verified equally bad behaviour under FC5.  rxvt (from which aterm
> was forked/spawned) has very similar issues.

Using the following, I do see (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen) correctly.
rxvt -ls -fn 8x12 -bg black -fg white -title &

However the line wraps of long man page lines is handled badly and I see 
umlaut a instead of a clean line wrap.

I've seen the problem you describe on some systems. I've never found a 
solution.

-Joseph-
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 15:20:40 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <200606011107.37991.shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com> <200606011107.37991.shrike@heinous.org>
Message-ID: <20060601152040.GB23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 11:07:37AM -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote:
> Using the following, I do see (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen) correctly.
> rxvt -ls -fn 8x12 -bg black -fg white -title &
> 
> However the line wraps of long man page lines is handled badly and I see 
> umlaut a instead of a clean line wrap.
> 
> I've seen the problem you describe on some systems. I've never found a 
> solution.

Could it be an issue of a broken terminal program, a bad locale setup,
or a using a program that doesn't support the locale or something
similar?

Len Sorensen
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 15:50:47 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:50:47 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060601155046.GA7944@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 12:10:41AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
>I use aterm rather than xterm (or konsole or rxvt or ...) because it
>supports pseudo-transparency and is light-weight.  I have one minor
>but nagging problem with it.
>
>When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
>systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
>(back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
>caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.  This can
>be a real pain, as it makes the man pages hard to read and throws off

You are not alone in this.  I have encountered this problem with about a
dozen terminal emulators (all on Debian testing).  The beginning of the
problem for me was using Unicode in my terminals.  That's when I found
the wonky quote characters in man pages.  I was initially using Eterm,
but if it has Unicode support I couldn't find it.  I switched to
rxvt-unicode and I eventually had to scrap that because of the problem
you mention.

I think it may be a font codepoint issue, because I have never seen the
problem when using an X-based remote terminal on Windoze.  (First with
Cygwin and now with FreeNX).  You could try changing your fonts and
seeing what you see.  Below are the terminals I remember testing and the
reasons I gave up on them:

Eterm           - no Unicode support
rxvt-unicode    - same error you saw
xterm           - no transparency, resource intensive
terminal.app    - too many dependancies
aterm           - same error you saw
mlterm          - slow, no transparency
gnome-terminal  - slow
konsole         - slow
wterm           - same error you saw
xvt             - same error you saw
xfce4-terminal  - works, is my current terminal

I hope that helps.
-- 

yours,

William

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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 17:07:28 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:07:28 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <20060601132550.74976.qmail-zT9n6x/3IzWA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060601132550.74976.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <lad.rfimi.bqbs@ayaaa.ij>


On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Michael Yang wrote:

> Thank you Peter, it does the same ping ip and name.

Ok, I think that the next thing to check is the cable and the switch to 
the machine that pings slowly. Note that a heavy loaded machine will 
answer slowly. There are also kernel tcp/ip stack tuning parameters 
which slow down ping responses deliberately.

Peter
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 17:18:52 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:18:52 -0400
Subject: KWLUG topic: XEN
Message-ID: <200606011318.54288.interlug@weait.net>

Hi all,

KWLUG is thrilled to have Jim Elliott from IBM as our special guest 
presenter for the meeting on Monday.  He'll be Showing and Telling 
virtualization including XEN.  

Monday, 05 June 2006.  Doors at 6, meeting at 7:00.  
http://kwlug.org/

No cover charge.  Open and Free to all with an interest in Linux.  See 
you here!
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 20:14:55 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:14:55 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <20060601155046.GA7944-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060601155046.GA7944@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606011314p711fb93i8ba639ed314a6262@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the responses, which inspired me to struggle on.  And
an answer seems to have been found.  I thought "what if I trace the
pipeline that man pages go through before they're displayed?  I could
find the error."  I didn't manage to get a definitive answer, but this
worked:

  gunzip -c /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz | groff -man -T ascii | less

Well, mostly ...  Tables don't get formatted.  Easily remedied, as it turns out:

  gunzip -c /usr/share/man/man1/man.1.gz | tbl | groff -mandoc -T ascii | less

And voila, the man pages display correctly in aterm!  But to use this
myself I'd have to write a script to search the $MANPATH and a bunch
of other stuff, so the search continued.  I also still don't know
where the breakage was because this can't be the same pipeline man
uses or things wouldn't be broken in aterm.

Anyway, several more hours of reading and the simple solution was
found.  Put this in your /etc/bashrc or whereever:

  MANOPT=-Eascii

*sigh*

A quick check seems to indicate this doesn't cause problems on the
console or in xterm.  I wouldn't expect it to, but thought I should
check.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 20:49:02 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:49:02 -0400
Subject: Microsoft's Linux overture: More sizzle, less steak
Message-ID: <447F52BE.6040508@pppoe.ca>

With input from our own Evan Leibovitch and Matthew Rice  :-)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060601.TWEINSIDER01/TPStory/Business

Meng
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 21:04:51 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:04:51 -0400
Subject: KWLUG topic: XEN
In-Reply-To: <200606011318.54288.interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606011318.54288.interlug@weait.net>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606011404n7a378d36p886dfc871e8c1317@mail.gmail.com>

Is anyone considering driving to this?  I'd love to go, but don't have
a car.  I'd be willing to chip in some money towards gas.  I could
meet almost anywhere in the GTA area (think "TTC").  Please mail me
off list.

PS. I bathe regularly and don't smoke.  I'd rather not listen to
country or opera during the ride, but should otherwise survive any
music played.  I'm not very opinionated ... if you use postings on the
GTALUG mailing list as a measurement.

On 6/1/06, interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org <interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> KWLUG is thrilled to have Jim Elliott from IBM as our special guest
> presenter for the meeting on Monday.  He'll be Showing and Telling
> virtualization including XEN.
>
> Monday, 05 June 2006.  Doors at 6, meeting at 7:00.
> http://kwlug.org/
>
> No cover charge.  Open and Free to all with an interest in Linux.  See
> you here!

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 21:39:19 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:39:19 -0400
Subject: KWLUG topic: XEN
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606011404n7a378d36p886dfc871e8c1317-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606011318.54288.interlug@weait.net>
	 <1f13df280606011404n7a378d36p886dfc871e8c1317@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1149197960.3340.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 17:04 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> Is anyone considering driving to this?  I'd love to go, but don't have
> a car.  I'd be willing to chip in some money towards gas.  I could
> meet almost anywhere in the GTA area (think "TTC").  Please mail me
> off list.
> 
> PS. I bathe regularly and don't smoke.  I'd rather not listen to
> country or opera during the ride, but should otherwise survive any
> music played.  I'm not very opinionated ... if you use postings on the
> GTALUG mailing list as a measurement.

House broken?

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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  1 23:54:33 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:54:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606011932590.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
| systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
| (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
| caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.

These programs are outputting UTF-8 (multicharacter encoding of
UNICODE).  In UTF-8, characters within the ASCII set have the same encoding
as in ASCII.

Other characters (eg. those you mentioned) take multiple bytes.
ISO-8859-1 characters that are not within ASCII take two bytes.

The best fix would be to convince your terminal program that it is
expecting UTF-8 from the programs running beneath it.

Alternatively, you could try to convince the programs to generate what
your terminal program is expecting.  But there are a lot of programs
to convince (including gcc!).

On Fedora Core 5, changing the definition of LANG in
/etc/sysconfig/i18n should do the trick (but I'm not sure that it
does).

I have a heck of a time with this, even when I start xterm like this:
  LANG=en_CA xterm -lc
I lose xterms when I display some SPAM subject lines with Chinese in
them.  I'm generally doing this through ssh from a FC5 system to a
RHL7.0 system, so there may be some kind of impedance mismatch in
their handling of $LANG.  The newest devolutions of xterm confuse
things with a helper program called "luit".
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 00:37:29 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:37:29 -0400
Subject: Microsoft's Linux overture: More sizzle, less steak
In-Reply-To: <447F52BE.6040508-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <447F52BE.6040508@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <447F5009.1642.129C2557@pking123.sympatico.ca>

I like it. Well-balanced, for once. It realistically portrayed the position of 
businesses in relation to Linux/Windows in more sober and less jingoistic terms.

Paul

On 1 Jun 2006 at 16:49, Meng Cheah spaketh these wourdes:

> With input from our own Evan Leibovitch and Matthew Rice  :-)
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060601.TWEINSIDER01/TPStory/Business
> 
> Meng
> --
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> 
> 
> __________ NOD32 1.1574 (20060601) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 


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From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 03:58:36 2006
From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:58:36 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
Message-ID: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>

A paper by Andrew S. Tanenbaum, Jorrit N. Herder, and Herbert Bos.

http://www.computer.org/portal/site/computer/menuitem.5d61c1d591162e4b0ef1bd108bcd45f3/index.jsp?&pName=computer_level1_article&TheCat=1005&path=computer/homepage/0506&file=cover1.xml&xsl=article.xsl&

Ivan.
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From lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 12:20:13 2006
From: lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Yang)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 05:20:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <lad.rfimi.bqbs-bm3YHE5mQ30@public.gmane.org>
References: <lad.rfimi.bqbs@ayaaa.ij>
Message-ID: <20060602122013.98511.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you for your reply.
   
  I have again pinged 192.168.3.51 (server) from 192.168.3.1 (workstation) and used tcpdump monitoring the traffic. It reported followoing: The interesting part is server has 2 NIC of the following mac address:  
  0:11:72:4b:dd:1 , 0:11:72:4b:dd:2
   
  The response is from 0:11:72:4b:dd:3, (last digit is '3', not 1 or 2) I wonder where this mac add is from. 
   
    15:22:39.797836 arp who-has 192.168.3.51 tell 192.168.3.1
15:22:39.798036 arp reply 192.168.3.51 is-at 0:11:72:4b:dd:3
   
  I appreciate your inputs as always ;o)
   
  Have a great day everybody!
   
  Michael

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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 15:54:59 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:54:59 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <447FB76C.1050006-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/06, Ivan Avery Frey <ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> http://www.computer.org/portal/site/computer/menuitem.5d61c1d591162e4b0ef1bd108bcd45f3/index.jsp?&pName=computer_level1_article&TheCat=1005&path=computer/homepage/0506&file=cover1.xml&xsl=article.xsl&

Good article, but that is the uglyest URL I've ever seen.
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 17:39:00 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:39:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Sy Ali wrote:

> Good article, but that is the uglyest URL I've ever seen.

Yes it is a good article.  I don't agree with everything he said.  For one 
thing I don't think that microkernels were dismissed as unacceptable at 
all (and it seems an odd thing for Mr Tannenbaum to say actually).

Microkernels have been relegated to the sidelines out of a desire for 
"more speed" "more speed".  Almost every research OS out there is based on 
a microkernel.

I've long disagreed with the notion that a microkernel has inherently 
harder to develop. Certainly more up front planning is required but with a 
well thought out and flexible structure and message passing mechanism 
development of the OS subsystems should actually move as quickly (if note 
more quickly) than in a monolithic kernel thanks in part to the well 
defined interfaces present.  Monolithic kernels are high susceptible to 
unintentional breakage.  How many times have we seen this on Linux[1].

Yes there is a performance hit.  Research consistently shows the 
performance hit to be <10% on a well built system.  Given the increased 
relibility (both in terms of the system staying up, and in terms of 
correctness of code) this is well worth it IMHO.

I for one would be very disapppointed if all of the OSes we use today were 
not relegated to history by 2025.  We know how to build better systems - 
we should go and do it.  Mind you there is no need to give up all our 
lovely applications.  A future microkernel can easily create an instance 
in which Linux apps can run at native speed.  Indeed such things exist now 
in terms of virtualisation and a POSIX interface is a required component 
of any serious microkernel system.

[1] Now was it 2.4.15 where a filesystem patch broke the buffer-cache 
resulting in filesystem corruption if you did not properly unmount before 
system halt?  Such a problem cannot occur between (for example) the 
filesystem code and buffer-cache in a microkernel any post than sshd can 
take down your web server now (ie, if it manages to do it, it is only 
because the system allowed the behaviour).

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 17:45:09 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:45:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021344300.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Robert Brockway wrote:

> resulting in filesystem corruption if you did not properly unmount before 
> system halt?  Such a problem cannot occur between (for example) the 
> filesystem code and buffer-cache in a microkernel any post than sshd can take

I mean any _more_ than.

*sigh*.

Need sleep :)

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 18:03:33 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:03:33 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 01:39:00PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote:
> Yes it is a good article.  I don't agree with everything he said.  For one 
> thing I don't think that microkernels were dismissed as unacceptable at 
> all (and it seems an odd thing for Mr Tannenbaum to say actually).
> 
> Microkernels have been relegated to the sidelines out of a desire for 
> "more speed" "more speed".  Almost every research OS out there is based on 
> a microkernel.

It is simpler, when doing research, to use a microkernel where
everything is its own little well defined module so you can replace one
piece at a time to see what changing the deisgn of one piece does the
the performance of the system.  Of course having to pass everything
around between modules takes time, where something like the linux kernel
will just pass a pointer to the memory whenever that is the most
efficient and reasonable thing to do.  This also means it is harder to
tear out and replace a subsystem in linux, although it isn't always that
bad.  After all sometime in 2.4.x (I think x=10) the VM system was
completely replace by someone elses code because the existing code
didn't work well, and the new one was simpler, more obvious, and clearly
worked.  The VM interface apparently is sufficiently abstracted that it
could just be replaced all at once without having to touch other code
that uses it.

> I've long disagreed with the notion that a microkernel has inherently 
> harder to develop. Certainly more up front planning is required but with a 
> well thought out and flexible structure and message passing mechanism 
> development of the OS subsystems should actually move as quickly (if note 
> more quickly) than in a monolithic kernel thanks in part to the well 
> defined interfaces present.  Monolithic kernels are high susceptible to 
> unintentional breakage.  How many times have we seen this on Linux[1].

I think much of the breakage seen on linux is just as likely on a micro
kernel system.  One thing the microkernel system is less liukely to see
is a pointer bug in one piece of code causing a problem at some other
random place in the system.  This certainly is useful, but I am not
convinced it is worth the tradeoff.

> Yes there is a performance hit.  Research consistently shows the 
> performance hit to be <10% on a well built system.  Given the increased 
> relibility (both in terms of the system staying up, and in terms of 
> correctness of code) this is well worth it IMHO.

The linux kernel seems pretty good at staying up.  So does BSD.  If your
memory management module blows up, what is the rest of the system
supposed to do on a microkernel system.  Microkernels don't
automatically make things more stable, they do make it somewhat easier
and clearer to make sure that one piece doesn't mess up another.  Of
course if one piece is critical to the operation of the system as a
whole, it has to be right no matter what, microkernel or not.

> I for one would be very disapppointed if all of the OSes we use today were 
> not relegated to history by 2025.  We know how to build better systems - 
> we should go and do it.  Mind you there is no need to give up all our 
> lovely applications.  A future microkernel can easily create an instance 
> in which Linux apps can run at native speed.  Indeed such things exist now 
> in terms of virtualisation and a POSIX interface is a required component 
> of any serious microkernel system.

Unix design hasn't given up yet.  It is evolving though.  We have memory
space seperation at least.  Of course some computer scientists are still
annoyed that IBM made the shared code/data memory design the common
accepted one, when other systems had code and data in seperate memory
spaces, which gave a lot of extra safety for the code since code would
not modify code, code would modify data.  The code memory space was not
writeable by the code, only by the OS when loading the code into memory.
Todays write protected code pages and that are just hacks to try and
deal with that old mistake.

> [1] Now was it 2.4.15 where a filesystem patch broke the buffer-cache 
> resulting in filesystem corruption if you did not properly unmount before 
> system halt?  Such a problem cannot occur between (for example) the 
> filesystem code and buffer-cache in a microkernel any post than sshd can 
> take down your web server now (ie, if it manages to do it, it is only 
> because the system allowed the behaviour).

A microkernel can have a buggy FS module too.  What is the difference?

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 18:06:52 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 21:06:52 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Ping response slow
In-Reply-To: <20060602122013.98511.qmail-dVZC01F8+9iA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060602122013.98511.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <x.cuo.xhvtk@rv.mx.aa>



Can you run nmap on your subnet ? Maybe both NICs of the server are 
connected to the same network ?

Peter
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 18:07:13 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:07:13 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
	 <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606021107x2b75aa72tcf50843d561d8f41@mail.gmail.com>

As an aside, one thing which piques my interest with regards to
stability and security is  the idea of jailing or otherwise carving up
the system's resources into virtualized machines.

If I'm not mistaken, Heretix and GoboLinux throw applications in a
sort of jail, at least for installation purposes, so that they can't
place files outside of defined areas.

Virtual machines takes that a step further by doing that also with
memory and such.

Jails are really cool and this topic is on my list of stuff to learn.

I think that security and stability can be achieved not only by
looking at the OS itself but also on how applications are stored and
run.

So one avenue for improvement would be changes to the OS and its
tools.  Another avenue is through virtualization and jails and the
like.  I like the avenue suggested in the article.. where a programing
language itself is designed around "safe" concepts.  I still think
jailing/virtualizing is necessary because people will want to run old
"untrusted" applications without rewriting/recompiling them.


I remember windows 95 touting that it was more stable because a
misbehaving application couldn't take down other applications.  This
was a real selling point (umm, a real pirating point?) for people who
tried to make windows 3.1 run multiple applications.


I personally would be willing to take a mere 10% hit on performance
(however _that_ is defined.. heh) for "stability".  I'd be willing to
take 50% or more to be able to better manager and trust my computer.
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 19:02:22 2006
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:02:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OTA and Linux
Message-ID: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>

The March product flyer from OTA on College Street shows a 'feature item'
which is an Acer laptop AS3623NWXMI loaded with...Linux. No mention of
Windows.

OTA has known about Linux for some time, but this is the first time I've
seen it as a feature item in their flyer.

(I like the Acer laptop AS3613WLCI that I got at Canada Computers, but the
battery life is pathetic, something like 20 minutes when operating a
wireless connection.)

Peter

-- 
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Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 19:11:34 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:11:34 +0000
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606021107x2b75aa72tcf50843d561d8f41-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
	 <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <1e55af990606021107x2b75aa72tcf50843d561d8f41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606021211k54ed6624x9d4f111140c6b3ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I personally would be willing to take a mere 10% hit on performance
> (however _that_ is defined.. heh) for "stability".  I'd be willing to
> take 50% or more to be able to better manager and trust my computer.

Jails are something which generally doesn't even have that cost...

There is some cost in terms of additional memory consumption; a few MB
per jail.  But they still get to share libraries, binaries, and cache
with the applications in other jails (or that aren't jailed) so that
the cost is really pretty minimal.

And this approach is, whether with explicit common mechanism or not,
one which has been getting increasingly used on Unix-like systems.
These days, hardly anyone runs Sendmail, with its "monolith" of
various aspects of instability.  They run Postfix or qmail, which,
without any special extra "jail" frameworks, run as much of the MTA
process under plain ordinary user contexts as possible.

And contrary to the "rules of thumb" about microkernel vs monolithic
kernel, the "split out" mailers tend to provide *higher* performance
than their monolithic brethren.

This isn't virtualization, which does tend to be expensive...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 19:58:23 2006
From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:58:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Transport to WestTLUG...
Message-ID: <20060602195823.14813.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

As I trust everyone knows there were some goodies left
over from the LinuxWorld Canada show that I have been
attempting to give away at the various local user
group meetings (TLUG, UU, NewTLUG). What hasn't
happened yet is stuff to WestTLUG, because I have not
been able to transport goodies out that way....

So, can I get someone who will be attending the next
WestTLUG meeting to cross paths with me in the next
few days to ferry some stuff to WestTLUG? My office is
near King and River, my home is near Yonge and
Eglinton.

Thanks.

Colin McGregor
--
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 20:02:48 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:02:48 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606021211k54ed6624x9d4f111140c6b3ce-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
	 <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <1e55af990606021107x2b75aa72tcf50843d561d8f41@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606021211k54ed6624x9d4f111140c6b3ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606021302w173e1f65y54909ccef898f421@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> This isn't virtualization, which does tend to be expensive...

CPUs are getting more direct support for concepts like this.  Perhaps,
over time, tweaks like this will help the various jailing methods be
less costly for performance.

It feels to me that applications will keep being written in a
haphazard way, and structures will get written to wrap around them for
security etc.
--
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 20:27:26 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:27:26 -0400
Subject: KWLUG topic: XEN
In-Reply-To: <1149197960.3340.13.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606011318.54288.interlug@weait.net>
	 <1f13df280606011404n7a378d36p886dfc871e8c1317@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1149197960.3340.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606021327k53606231oe43b9efacef26f74@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/06, John Van Ostrand <john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > PS. I bathe regularly and don't smoke.  I'd rather not listen to
> > country or opera during the ride, but should otherwise survive any
> > music played.  I'm not very opinionated ... if you use postings on the
> > GTALUG mailing list as a measurement.
>
> House broken?

Well, he top-posts.. but I suppose that's forgivable.  =)
--
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 20:44:00 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:44:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <20060602180333.GC23745-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> efficient and reasonable thing to do.  This also means it is harder to
> tear out and replace a subsystem in linux, although it isn't always that
> bad.  After all sometime in 2.4.x (I think x=10) the VM system was
> completely replace by someone elses code because the existing code
> didn't work well, and the new one was simpler, more obvious, and clearly
> worked.  The VM interface apparently is sufficiently abstracted that it
> could just be replaced all at once without having to touch other code
> that uses it.

My recollection of that event is that it was anything but clean.  It was 
quite a painful experience and took place over several months.  It's a 
perfect example of whatr I'm talking about - the monolithic design made 
the change hard.

> I think much of the breakage seen on linux is just as likely on a micro
> kernel system.  One thing the microkernel system is less liukely to see

I disagree.  A lot of problems have occured because the Linux kernel (and 
indeed any monolithic kernel) is not very modular.  Many of these problems 
simply can't occur when the only way system processes can communicate is 
through a tightly defined protocol.  See my earlier example of sshd and 
httpd: one can only kill the other if the kernel allows it (ie, if there 
is a bug in the kernel).

> is a pointer bug in one piece of code causing a problem at some other
> random place in the system.  This certainly is useful, but I am not
> convinced it is worth the tradeoff.

I absolutely am.  I am convinced we'll see much more rapid system 
development under a well planned microkernel system.

> The linux kernel seems pretty good at staying up.  So does BSD.  If your

Sure.  Because a lot of hard work has gone into it.  I am emphasising that 
it is simply easier to make a microkernel system stable.

> memory management module blows up, what is the rest of the system
> supposed to do on a microkernel system.  Microkernels don't
> automatically make things more stable, they do make it somewhat easier
> and clearer to make sure that one piece doesn't mess up another.  Of
> course if one piece is critical to the operation of the system as a
> whole, it has to be right no matter what, microkernel or not.

There are no absolutes but in a microkernel design there are less ways to 
kill the critical system (since less lines of code have the ability to 
kill it).

> Unix design hasn't given up yet.  It is evolving though.  We have memory

I think *nix is great.  It is the best OS out there in common use today. 
But it is showing its age.  Plan 9 is a great example of how unix would 
have been if it had been started in the 1990s.  I reiterate, if we have 
not advanced beyond the current crop of OSes in 20 years I think we've 
made a big mistake.  Most of the OSes on the horizon (experimental or 
otherwise) draw conceptually from unix while leaving behind much of the 
baggage.

>> [1] Now was it 2.4.15 where a filesystem patch broke the buffer-cache
>> resulting in filesystem corruption if you did not properly unmount before
>> system halt?  Such a problem cannot occur between (for example) the
>> filesystem code and buffer-cache in a microkernel any post than sshd can
>> take down your web server now (ie, if it manages to do it, it is only
>> because the system allowed the behaviour).
>
> A microkernel can have a buggy FS module too.  What is the difference?

But this is precisely the problem.  The bug was not in the FS, it was in 
the buffer-cache but it damaged the filesystem.  In a microkernel based 
system the communication protocol between the FS service and the 
buffer-cache service would not allow the damage to occur.  Indeed if it 
did the protocol itself would be at fault.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 22:06:13 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:06:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021724480.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org>

| On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

| > ... After all sometime in 2.4.x (I think x=10) the VM system was
| > completely replace by someone elses code because the existing code
| > didn't work well, and the new one was simpler, more obvious, and clearly
| > worked.  The VM interface apparently is sufficiently abstracted that it
| > could just be replaced all at once without having to touch other code
| > that uses it.
| 
| My recollection of that event is that it was anything but clean.  It was quite
| a painful experience and took place over several months.  It's a perfect
| example of whatr I'm talking about - the monolithic design made the change
| hard.

Interesting example.  I'll talk about it in the abstract because I
don't actually know/remember the details.  (I do remember being
unconvinced that the new VM was a Good Thing.)

An efficient VM system has its fingers in a lot of pies.  For example,
folks generally think that file caching should be done by the VM
system.  So the VM system needs to know things about file access
behaviour (typically access patterns are different for files and main
memory).  A VM system needs to know what the scheduler intends to do
(to stage pages, for example; to swap working sets out, perhaps, etc).
The VM manager might profitably know about about disk behaviour, at
quite a low level, to schedule page reads or writes optimally on the
physical hardware.  It may need to know about error behaviour of the
drive to know when it is safe to release a page frame, or perhaps kill
a process for which a page read failed.  I won't even go into OOM.
And this is all off the top of my head.

A simple VM is really easy.  It turns out that the VM is so crucial
on many systems (and hence all general purpose operating systems
worthy of the name) that it is deemed worthwhile to go beyond easy.
"As simple as possible, but no simpler."

| I disagree.  A lot of problems have occured because the Linux kernel (and
| indeed any monolithic kernel) is not very modular.

Actually, I suspect "microkernel" and "monolithic kernel" are being
used connotatively rather than denotatively.

Generally, I think microkernels are made up of a bunch of co-operating
sequential processes.  But what is the process model?

- separate address spaces?  This is often expensive in performance
  (MMU state changes do a lot of dammage).  UNIX folks just assume
  that different processes have different address spaces, but that is
  unwarranted.

- communication by message passing?  Not necessarily: "monitors" are a
  very nice concept and are in some ways cleaner (typically monitor
  calls involve strong typing whereas message passing typically does
  not).

- If communication is by message passing, what are the limits on messages?
  High performance systems I've seen have strong limits on the size of
  messages to keep down the marshalling and demarshalling costs.  Some
  get externalized: messages might contain pointers to buffers, for
  example (if there are shared address spaces).  On systems with
  separate address spaces for components, big messages might be
  handled as a page being handed off from one process to another.

- Do the programs (like ones written in C) need extra-lingual
  enforcement to make them safe to their neighbours (eg. separate
  address spaces)?  We in the UNIX world assume this, but it wasn't
  true in the Burroughs machines (from the B5000 of ~1960 on).  It
  isn't true of Java.

I've long had a dream that one could write a program in a clean,
modular fashion and that a processor (let's call it a compiler) could
implement it in a way that squeezed out inefficiency by carefully
implementing linkages.

|  Many of these problems
| simply can't occur when the only way system processes can communicate is
| through a tightly defined protocol.

Right.  That should be true in a monolithic kernel too.  I think that
various lint-like tools that are being brought to bear on the kernel
are trying to discover / enforce protocols.  How much better it would
be if those protocols were declared.

| > Unix design hasn't given up yet.  It is evolving though.  We have memory
| 
| I think *nix is great.  It is the best OS out there in common use today. But
| it is showing its age.  Plan 9 is a great example of how unix would have been
| if it had been started in the 1990s.  I reiterate, if we have not advanced
| beyond the current crop of OSes in 20 years I think we've made a big mistake.
| Most of the OSes on the horizon (experimental or otherwise) draw conceptually
| from unix while leaving behind much of the baggage.

UNIX (including Linux) is mostly "good enough" so it is hard to
replace it, even with something better.  Plan 9 didn't manage to.
Inferno didn't.  (It might be possible to replace it with something
worse, like MS Windows :-)

I think that there is a parallel with the x86.  It turned out to be
good enough.  We would all have prefered Alpha (wouldn't we?) from a
technical standpoint.

Heck, even X survived, and I'm startled too admit that it might be good
enough.  Yuck!

I like the ideas of Plan 9 a lot.  And I've had plenty of opportunity
to try it.  I've only once gotten so far as to try installing it on a
machine (I gave up at the first sign of trouble).  Why?  I've got a
tremendous investment in UNIX that I doubt is worth giving up.  The
only friend I know using Plan 9 is a Quacker -- I think that that is
no accident (no, not Pike; he's an old friend, but doesn't use Plan 9
AFAIK).
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 22:16:01 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 22:16:01 +0000
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
	 <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606021516j29147d23k5ed1c1b75486500@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
> > efficient and reasonable thing to do.  This also means it is harder to
> > tear out and replace a subsystem in linux, although it isn't always that
> > bad.  After all sometime in 2.4.x (I think x=10) the VM system was
> > completely replace by someone elses code because the existing code
> > didn't work well, and the new one was simpler, more obvious, and clearly
> > worked.  The VM interface apparently is sufficiently abstracted that it
> > could just be replaced all at once without having to touch other code
> > that uses it.
>
> My recollection of that event is that it was anything but clean.  It was
> quite a painful experience and took place over several months.  It's a
> perfect example of whatr I'm talking about - the monolithic design made
> the change hard.

Unfortunately, casting the IPC interfaces in stone introduces a new
set of restrictions and a new set of problems.

More vital, the move to a microkernel design means that you have a
"broken system" for a substantial period of time.

What we saw happen with Hurd was that:

"Of course 5  years from now that will be different,  but 5 years from
now  everyone  will  be  running  free  GNU on  their  200  MIPS,  64M
SPARCstation-5."  -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992

became

"I am aware of the benefits  of a micro kernel approach.  However, the
fact remains  that Linux is  here, and GNU  isn't --- and  people have
been working on Hurd for a lot longer than Linus has been working on
Linux." -- Ted T'so, 1992.

And it is worth considering that it is now 2006, some twelve years
hence, and Hurd /"free GNU" (as Tanembaum termed it) is still pretty
much a curiosity, with Really Substantial limitations.  (They still
are limited to 1GB filesystems, because of limitations in Mach's VM,
right???)

> > I think much of the breakage seen on linux is just as likely on a micro
> > kernel system.  One thing the microkernel system is less liukely to see
>
> I disagree.  A lot of problems have occured because the Linux kernel (and
> indeed any monolithic kernel) is not very modular.  Many of these problems
> simply can't occur when the only way system processes can communicate is
> through a tightly defined protocol.  See my earlier example of sshd and
> httpd: one can only kill the other if the kernel allows it (ie, if there
> is a bug in the kernel).

For better or worse, Linux *isn't* a microkernel, and the people
involved in its development *aren't interested* in going through the
process of tearing everything down to turn it into one.

It's fair to say that there were some unfortunate historical factors
in the Hurd experience.  They got held off by about 2 years, at the
time that interest in Linux was moving from curiosity to seriousness,
because people at CMU were promising RMS that "real soon now" there'd
be a GPLable release of Mach, and that simply took an atrocious amount
of time.

By the point in time that they had Mach code that they could use for
anything, Microsoft had bought out the CMU OS group to turn it into
the beginnings of Microsoft Research, and the prospective world view
that was "Everyone will be porting Mach everywhere, and all other
kernels will be curiosities" turned into "Nobody cares about Mach
anymore (except Steve Jobs) and nobody wants to touch Raschid's code,
either..."

Some of that could have turned out differently.  But it's worth
pointing out that in order to head towards a New World Order of
_Linux, The MicroKernel_, we'd have to assortedly see:

- People that have, for 15 years, been dead set *against*
microkernels, change their mind

- After changing their minds, at least a two year hiatus on having a
functioning system or *any* new feature of any sort as Linux got
refactored into microkernel components (something not dissimilar to
this has happened with the refactoring of X.org between version 6.9
and 7.0)

I don't see people considering either of those things to be anywhere
near acceptable.

> > is a pointer bug in one piece of code causing a problem at some other
> > random place in the system.  This certainly is useful, but I am not
> > convinced it is worth the tradeoff.
>
> I absolutely am.  I am convinced we'll see much more rapid system
> development under a well planned microkernel system.

Perhaps, but you need to have an "as big as designing X11 or BSD"
superproject involving hundreds of millions of dollars of funding at
academic and professional levels along with several years of work and
waiting time as predecessors to actually seeing the glimmerings of a
system smart enough to display "Hello, world!"

> > The linux kernel seems pretty good at staying up.  So does BSD.  If your
>
> Sure.  Because a lot of hard work has gone into it.  I am emphasising that
> it is simply easier to make a microkernel system stable.

With the pre-assumption that you have gotten the effort in place to
build a functional microkernel system in the first place.

> > Unix design hasn't given up yet.  It is evolving though.  We have memory
>
> I think *nix is great.  It is the best OS out there in common use today.
> But it is showing its age.  Plan 9 is a great example of how unix would
> have been if it had been started in the 1990s.  I reiterate, if we have
> not advanced beyond the current crop of OSes in 20 years I think we've
> made a big mistake.  Most of the OSes on the horizon (experimental or
> otherwise) draw conceptually from unix while leaving behind much of the
> baggage.

"Mistake" doesn't seem the right word to me.

There are some good arguments that we have *more primitive* systems
than what was the state of the art 20 years ago, between such things
as VMS, TOPS-20, Tenex, Genera, Multics, Stratus, and such.

It seems to me that the "market" for operating systems has been
scorched down to salting the ashen ground by the combination of what
Microsoft did in formulating MSR (where they basically gave OS
researchers piles of money to come to MSR and stop working on
competing systems), where they spent barrels of money to scare anyone
out of the "top end" of building expensive OSes, and the popularity of
Linux, which allows people to expect that they can get the
functionality of Unix "for free."

There are plenty of good things about Linux being free; one of those
things *isn't* "Because it encourages vendors to spend more on
developing competing OSes."
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 22:46:05 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:46:05 -0400
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
Message-ID: <4480876D.22152.270EB19@pking123.sympatico.ca>

Hi

According to the rave reviews given by LUG Radio, Elephant's Dream is the first 
Dreamworks-quality, all-digital animation based entirely on open-source products. 
It is not feature-length, so I can't call it a "movie" exactly. It is about 20 
minutes long, and has one version that is done for high-definition TV.

The GIMP, for example, was used to make most of the images you saw. I don't 
recall about how the movement happens. The format is AVI, that, as far as I can 
tell, has no codec known to man that can properly play it.

I got nowhere under Debian Sarge. XMMS, XINE, and Totem couldn't play it at all; 
and under Windows, the only player that recognised it was DIVX, but alas, DIVX 
could not render the sound. The kind of data was called "Tag 8192", whatever that 
is. 

The high-definition format played jerkily for me (my processor speed is likely 
too slow), while the "1024" format ran at a decent speed.

Anyone know how to play this sucker back with full audio?

Paul King

--
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 22:56:57 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:56:57 -0400
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
Message-ID: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F@pking123.sympatico.ca>

Silly me. The players are provided on the website.

     http://orange.blender.org/download/

It claims to be playable under  VLC Media Player, MPlayer, and   Media Player 
Classic. The format is given as AVI/MPEG4, and the audio is in AC3 5.1 Surround. 

There are also DVD images and QuickTime images I didn't see by scrolling further 
down.

The video was lovely. I'll get back to you on the sound. :-)

Paul

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Hi

According to the rave reviews given by LUG Radio, Elephant's Dream is the first 
Dreamworks-quality, all-digital animation based entirely on open-source products. 
It is not feature-length, so I can't call it a "movie" exactly. It is about 20 
minutes long, and has one version that is done for high-definition TV.

The GIMP, for example, was used to make most of the images you saw. I don't 
recall about how the movement happens. The format is AVI, that, as far as I can 
tell, has no codec known to man that can properly play it.

I got nowhere under Debian Sarge. XMMS, XINE, and Totem couldn't play it at all; 
and under Windows, the only player that recognised it was DIVX, but alas, DIVX 
could not render the sound. The kind of data was called "Tag 8192", whatever that 
is. 

The high-definition format played jerkily for me (my processor speed is likely 
too slow), while the "1024" format ran at a decent speed.

Anyone know how to play this sucker back with full audio?

Paul King

------- End of forwarded message -------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 22:57:19 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:57:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021724480.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021724480.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021843240.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

[Many excellent points made, but snipped for brevity].

> - Do the programs (like ones written in C) need extra-lingual
>  enforcement to make them safe to their neighbours (eg. separate
>  address spaces)?  We in the UNIX world assume this, but it wasn't
>  true in the Burroughs machines (from the B5000 of ~1960 on).  It

Yes this is an interesting design.  Personally I still prefer the idea of 
enforcing seperate through seperate addresses spaces.

> Right.  That should be true in a monolithic kernel too.  I think that

Certainly.  But are there any examples of monolithic kernels where it is 
true?  I don't know of any.  There may be some where it is partly true. 
The tendency seems to be to create spagetti code within a monolithc 
kernel.

Mind you, a monolith kernel is still susceptible to malicious code as any 
protocol designed would in essence be "self enforced" by the subsystems. 
In a microkernel it is possible to truly enforce the protocol (assuming 
seperate address spaces again).

> various lint-like tools that are being brought to bear on the kernel
> are trying to discover / enforce protocols.  How much better it would
> be if those protocols were declared.

Definitely.  With such an arrangement we would certainly be enjoying many 
of the benefits associated with microkernels.

> UNIX (including Linux) is mostly "good enough" so it is hard to
> replace it, even with something better.  Plan 9 didn't manage to.
> Inferno didn't.  (It might be possible to replace it with something
> worse, like MS Windows :-)

The "good enough" argument is spot on.  I just hope we break this mold in 
the future (and I think we will).  I very much doubt todays common OSes 
will be good enough in 2025.

> I like the ideas of Plan 9 a lot.  And I've had plenty of opportunity
> to try it.  I've only once gotten so far as to try installing it on a
> machine (I gave up at the first sign of trouble).  Why?  I've got a
> tremendous investment in UNIX that I doubt is worth giving up.  The

You don't actually have to give it up.  There is no problem with running 
part or all of UNIX (or something that looks and tastes identical) along 
side other OSes in a properly build microkernel system.  It's just about 
plugging in the right subsystem (and indeed many moderm OSes can already 
do this much).

To give you a couple of examples:

1. MkLinux.  An early Linux supported by Apple.  It can Linux on top of a 
microkernel.  According to Wikipedia the project is alive - there you go, 
I thought it was dead.

2. Some mainframes interact with the world by emulating UNIX - but only as 
much or as little as they need.  A very elegant design.

You could be running an microkernel right now and having a Linux 
subsystem runnig on top (as a set of services in userspace) along with a 
FreeBSD subsystem and a Plan9 subsystem.  In the end it is all just data.

IMHO our current attempts at virtualisation are a result of inability of 
underlying OS to virtualise properly.  I believe in the future the 
virtualisation will be seemless with the OS - I mean more than it is with 
any OS now - it will just be that people won't think of virtualisation as 
something seperate from the OS, it'll just be about plugging in the 
required subsystems and running what you need to run.  Each subsystem can 
see as much or as little of other subsystems as is needed.  This could all 
be governed by a powerful ACL system.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 23:14:34 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:14:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606021516j29147d23k5ed1c1b75486500-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>  <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
  <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net> 
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <d6d6637f0606021516j29147d23k5ed1c1b75486500@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021857350.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Christopher Browne wrote:

> Unfortunately, casting the IPC interfaces in stone introduces a new
> set of restrictions and a new set of problems.

I was thinking about this.  I don't think it has to be set in stone.

It should not be terribly difficult to make an extensible protocol.  I was 
thinking that pairs of services could even be allowed to have sub 
protocols specific only to their interaction.  I won't go too much into 
this as I know OS researchers have been over this many times.

Certainly designing a system which will not shackle you down the track is 
absolutely essential to the design of the microkernel.

> More vital, the move to a microkernel design means that you have a
> "broken system" for a substantial period of time.

There is nothing stopping us continuing to use existing OSes as the 
microkernel develops.

> What we saw happen with Hurd was that:
>
> "Of course 5  years from now that will be different,  but 5 years from
> now  everyone  will  be  running  free  GNU on  their  200  MIPS,  64M
> SPARCstation-5."  -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992

GNU/Mach/HURD are often citied as counter examples as to why we should not 
move to a microkernel. I don't think it is a good one.  All it proves is 
that that particular project has not worked out, not that the ideas behind 
the project are flawed.  There are many reasons why that project has not 
worked out yet and many of them have to do with humans.

> became
>
> "I am aware of the benefits  of a micro kernel approach.  However, the
> fact remains  that Linux is  here, and GNU  isn't --- and  people have
> been working on Hurd for a lot longer than Linus has been working on
> Linux." -- Ted T'so, 1992.

IMHO the increasing complexity of monolithic kernels will force a move to 
microkernels in the end.  How much large is a Unix kernel than it was 20 
years ago?  100 times, 1000 times.  The complexity of the kernel goes up 
at a superlinear rate.  As such I predict a case of deminishing returns 
unless order is brought to the chaos.  Ie, eventually a spagetti code 
kernel will become so complex the effort required to add new features will 
outweigh the benefit.

> And it is worth considering that it is now 2006, some twelve years
> hence, and Hurd /"free GNU" (as Tanembaum termed it) is still pretty

My argument to this is that we've only had computer for 50 or 60 years.
Right now we are still in the early experimental stages of development. 
It may be that eventually nothing like the operating system exists at all. 
In the mean time I am convinced that within the next 10-15 years we'll see 
microkernels become mainstream.

> Some of that could have turned out differently.  But it's worth
> pointing out that in order to head towards a New World Order of
> _Linux, The MicroKernel_, we'd have to assortedly see:

Oh I'm not prodicting Linux, the MicroKernel.  Oh no.  Excuse me if 
anything I said lead you to believe this.  No way.  Linux is a monolithic 
kernel and that way it will stay (IMHO).

I'm saying viable microkernels will arrive.  They will run all the same 
apps (POSIX subsystem that looks just like Linux from userspace, among 
others), they will acquire features and flexibility rapidly and they will 
become popular.  That's my prediction anyway.

>> I absolutely am.  I am convinced we'll see much more rapid system
>> development under a well planned microkernel system.
>
> Perhaps, but you need to have an "as big as designing X11 or BSD"
> superproject involving hundreds of millions of dollars of funding at
> academic and professional levels along with several years of work and
> waiting time as predecessors to actually seeing the glimmerings of a
> system smart enough to display "Hello, world!"

I don't think it'll need to be that big.  Big yes, but not that big.

> There are plenty of good things about Linux being free; one of those
> things *isn't* "Because it encourages vendors to spend more on
> developing competing OSes."

Yes a good point.

Well I may dip out of the thread.  I'll have to see how much time I have.
But I'll be reading :)

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  2 23:23:31 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:23:31 -0400
Subject: More on ELephant's Dream
Message-ID: <44809033.1275.29333B4@pking123.sympatico.ca>

Hello

The animation was barely 10 minutes, but played well on VLC Media Player, with 
excellent sound. (so far, under Windows). There are insrtuctions on how to get 
VLC to work under Sarge, while I will install once another download I am doing 
finishes under Windows.

Sound and video-quality are both excellent. The story line and script leave 
something to be desired. However, one has to work hard NOT to try to filter the 
animation through the major-league writing we have seen under Pixar and WETA. 
These guys are open-source pioneers, showing off their talent and skill on 
entirely open source technology. It deserves a great deal of respect from us.

The movie short is offered under Creative Commons, so as long as TLUG doesn't 
charge admission, it could be playable at the next TLUG meeting ...?

Paul King
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 03:06:38 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 23:06:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org

| The March product flyer from OTA on College Street shows a 'feature item'
| which is an Acer laptop AS3623NWXMI loaded with...Linux. No mention of
| Windows.

Interesting.  I have wondered if this is a way to sell a laptop
without the MS Windows tax, fully expecting that the buyer would load
up MS Windows after purchasing.  Perhaps Legitimately: many businesses
have a site license anyway (I think).

OTA's page for notebooks does not mention this model
  http://www.otapc.com/systems.php
but using google I found that the main page does have it (duh), in two
variants http://www.otapc.com/

    AS3623NWXMI Celeron-M370
    256MB,40GB,DVDRW14"
    LINUX$660

    AS3623WXMI CELEREON-M
    1.5GHz,512MB,40GB,DVDRWM
    14.1"WXGA,XP$790

acer.ca does not describe this model.  The name seems to imply "No
Windows" rather than "with Linux".

I wonder what distro?  This link mentions "Linpus Linux LE" (in
Thailand): http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22967

This seems like a fairly weak notebook.  But getting a mainstream
notebook running 100% under Linux is a real crap shoot.  This one
ought to be better supported.

On the other hand, look at this model no longer sold by NCIX
(Vancouver mail order):
  http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=15092&vpn=LX.A500C.022&manufacture=Acer
It says "No OS" and "LINUX BOOT-UP OS", so who knows.  It list this:

    Included Software

    Installed:

	* Acer? Arcade
	* Acer? eManager
	* Acer? Launch Manager
	* Adobe? Acrobat? Reader
	* CyberLink? PowerProducer,*
	* Norton AntiVirus?*
	* NTI CD-Maker*

    On CD shipped with system:

	* Acer? System Recovery

    *OEM, not full-featured, version.

Notice no Linux.  But what do Acer Arcade etc. run under?

Canada computers has this model, maybe.  Description is sparse; it
includes "wo/Windows".
  http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=007086&cid=896&PHPSESSID=a4fd180d4aa60b10c5bab4e1b1966aa1
A bunch of other local stores carry this model, or carried it (as
discovered by a google search).

It sure looks as if Acer is trying to travel below someone's radar.
Microsoft's?  Consumers'?

| (I like the Acer laptop AS3613WLCI that I got at Canada Computers, but the
| battery life is pathetic, something like 20 minutes when operating a
| wireless connection.)

That sounds defective.  This notebook has a Celeron M, which is a
reasonable CPU for notebooks (not like my notebook -- it has a
non-Mobile first generation AMD 64).

From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 03:47:52 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:47:52 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <44810668.6060604@pppoe.ca>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

>| From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org
>
>| The March product flyer from OTA on College Street shows a 'feature item'
>| which is an Acer laptop AS3623NWXMI loaded with...Linux. No mention of
>| Windows.
>
>Interesting.  I have wondered if this is a way to sell a laptop
>without the MS Windows tax, fully expecting that the buyer would load
>up MS Windows after purchasing.  Perhaps Legitimately: many businesses
>have a site license anyway (I think).
>
>OTA's page for notebooks does not mention this model
>  http://www.otapc.com/systems.php
>but using google I found that the main page does have it (duh), in two
>variants http://www.otapc.com/
>
>    AS3623NWXMI Celeron-M370
>    256MB,40GB,DVDRW14"
>    LINUX$660
>
>    AS3623WXMI CELEREON-M
>    1.5GHz,512MB,40GB,DVDRWM
>    14.1"WXGA,XP$790
>
>acer.ca does not describe this model.  The name seems to imply "No
>Windows" rather than "with Linux".
>
>I wonder what distro?  This link mentions "Linpus Linux LE" (in
>Thailand): http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22967
>
>This seems like a fairly weak notebook.  But getting a mainstream
>notebook running 100% under Linux is a real crap shoot.  This one
>ought to be better supported.
>
>On the other hand, look at this model no longer sold by NCIX
>(Vancouver mail order):
>  http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=15092&vpn=LX.A500C.022&manufacture=Acer
>It says "No OS" and "LINUX BOOT-UP OS", so who knows.  It list this:
>
>    Included Software
>
>    Installed:
>
>	* Acer? Arcade
>	* Acer? eManager
>	* Acer? Launch Manager
>	* Adobe? Acrobat? Reader
>	* CyberLink? PowerProducer,*
>	* Norton AntiVirus?*
>	* NTI CD-Maker*
>
>    On CD shipped with system:
>
>	* Acer? System Recovery
>
>    *OEM, not full-featured, version.
>
>Notice no Linux.  But what do Acer Arcade etc. run under?
>
>Canada computers has this model, maybe.  Description is sparse; it
>includes "wo/Windows".
>  http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=007086&cid=896&PHPSESSID=a4fd180d4aa60b10c5bab4e1b1966aa1
>A bunch of other local stores carry this model, or carried it (as
>discovered by a google search).
>
>It sure looks as if Acer is trying to travel below someone's radar.
>Microsoft's?  Consumers'?
>
>| (I like the Acer laptop AS3613WLCI that I got at Canada Computers, but the
>| battery life is pathetic, something like 20 minutes when operating a
>| wireless connection.)
>
>That sounds defective.  This notebook has a Celeron M, which is a
>reasonable CPU for notebooks (not like my notebook -- it has a
>non-Mobile first generation AMD 64).
>

When I dropped off some flyers re the Linux World show at Canada Computers,
I asked if they were into supporting Linux.

I was informed that the people who wanted Linux knew what they wanted 
and how to get it.
I understand at least one of the employees use Linux.

Meng
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 06:02:13 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 01:02:13 -0500
Subject: More on ELephant's Dream
In-Reply-To: <44809033.1275.29333B4-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44809033.1275.29333B4@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606022302v630c2abdq4ca2691630f162e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The movie short is offered under Creative Commons, so as long as TLUG doesn't
> charge admission, it could be playable at the next TLUG meeting ...?

Naw, you don't have to worry about that..


http://orange.blender.org/blog/creative-commons-license-2/

You are free to duplicate the DVDs and distribute or sell them, but in
that case you have to make your own cover art and DVD prints for it,
with of course the proper attribution as mentioned above in 3).

You are free to broadcast the movie and documentary on your local TV
station, just include the entire credits roll too.

You can organize a screening in a cinema, and charge an entrance fee
for it. Just include the movie credits in the screening.
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 06:08:05 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 01:08:05 -0500
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
In-Reply-To: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> According to the rave reviews given by LUG Radio, Elephant's Dream is the first
> Dreamworks-quality, all-digital animation based entirely on open-source products.
> It is not feature-length, so I can't call it a "movie" exactly. It is about 20
> minutes long, and has one version that is done for high-definition TV.

Curious that the DVDs are full-size though.  I would have thought that
for 20 minutes it'd be a smaller download.


On 6/2/06, Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I got nowhere under Debian Sarge. XMMS, XINE, and Totem couldn't play it at all;
> and under Windows, the only player that recognised it was DIVX, but alas, DIVX
> could not render the sound. The kind of data was called "Tag 8192", whatever that
> is.

I'm having similar issues.  Why did they choose something so obscure?
I'll just get the DVD.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 11:22:53 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:22:53 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org
> 
> | The March product flyer from OTA on College Street shows a 'feature item'
> | which is an Acer laptop AS3623NWXMI loaded with...Linux. No mention of
> | Windows.
> 
> Interesting.  I have wondered if this is a way to sell a laptop
> without the MS Windows tax, fully expecting that the buyer would load
> up MS Windows after purchasing.  Perhaps Legitimately: many businesses
> have a site license anyway (I think).

Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
systems.  Also, there's www.angelcomputer.com, who sell notebooks loaded
with Linux, Windows or no OS.  The Linux and no OS models are cheaper
than those with Windows.
> 
> OTA's page for notebooks does not mention this model
>   http://www.otapc.com/systems.php
> but using google I found that the main page does have it (duh), in two
> variants http://www.otapc.com/
> 
>     AS3623NWXMI Celeron-M370
>     256MB,40GB,DVDRW14"
>     LINUX$660
> 
>     AS3623WXMI CELEREON-M
>     1.5GHz,512MB,40GB,DVDRWM
>     14.1"WXGA,XP$790
> 
> acer.ca does not describe this model.  The name seems to imply "No
> Windows" rather than "with Linux".
> 
> I wonder what distro?  This link mentions "Linpus Linux LE" (in
> Thailand): http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22967
> 
> This seems like a fairly weak notebook.  But getting a mainstream
> notebook running 100% under Linux is a real crap shoot.  This one
> ought to be better supported.

My ThinkPad runs well, with all devices, including modem and WiFi
supported.  Also, with the push for Linux in China, Taiwan and
elsewhere, I expect a lot more computers will be supporting it.

<http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/06/03/2003311446>
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 11:24:28 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:24:28 -0500
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
	 <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606030424i68a9060k1c842d67d230cd8c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Curious that the DVDs are full-size though.  I would have thought that
> for 20 minutes it'd be a smaller download.

Whoops, I was thinking in terms of CDs and not DVDs.. it is a small
download for a DVD iso.  =)
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 12:18:28 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 07:18:28 -0500
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
	 <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606030518g4e3e2ce5vfb37b9d8853f34f6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/2/06, Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I got nowhere under Debian Sarge. XMMS, XINE, and Totem couldn't play it at all;
> > and under Windows, the only player that recognised it was DIVX, but alas, DIVX
> > could not render the sound. The kind of data was called "Tag 8192", whatever that
> > is.
>
> I'm having similar issues.  Why did they choose something so obscure?
> I'll just get the DVD.

I got the DVD.  It's a nice nod to The Matrix, but it could have been
written a lot better..

The unexplained time-elapse in the middle was a very bad idea.  The
voice for the younger character doesn't seem right to me maybe until
his accent came out way later.  The old guy tosses his walking stick
in one scene and mysteriously picks it back up in another.  =/

I can easily re-encode it to other video/audio codecs, but I don't
think it's particularly interesting apart from the last few minutes.
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 14:04:04 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:04:04 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <4481710D.9080800-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca>

James Knott wrote:

>Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
>Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
>systems.  
>
What's the name of the store?
I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.

Thanks.

Meng Cheah
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 14:33:18 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:33:18 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

>    AS3623NWXMI Celeron-M370
>    256MB,40GB,DVDRW14"
>    LINUX$660
>
>    AS3623WXMI CELEREON-M
>    1.5GHz,512MB,40GB,DVDRWM
>    14.1"WXGA,XP$790
>  
>
One small thing: Note that the $130 saved is not just because of the 
lack of Windows; the "Linux" system also comes with half the RAM.

>This seems like a fairly weak notebook.  But getting a mainstream notebook running 100% under Linux is a real crap shoot.
>
Not really. It's just a matter of getting a laptop without oddball 
hardware and choosing a distro that's designed to work well with laptops.

This is an area where I believe Mandriva shines. It can autodetect what 
kind of laptop, so if there's some hw-specific stuff that it can 
install, it will try. My install on Thinkpad T42 automatically installed 
support for the extra keys and hot-plugging the docking station.

Commercial support is available for laptops purchased from 
Emperorlinux.com, and they have a pretty good selection. Good resources 
for DIY laptop installers can be found at http://tuxmobil.org/ and 
http://www.linux-laptop.net/

It's always good to check these sites to see how well your intended 
purchase is supported.

- Evan
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 14:45:35 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:45:35 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <4481710D.9080800-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4481A08F.1050607@telly.org>

James Knott wrote:

>My ThinkPad runs well, with all devices, including modem and WiFi
>supported.  Also, with the push for Linux in China, Taiwan and
>elsewhere, I expect a lot more computers will be supporting it.
>  
>
There are already a great many products supporting Linux; they're just 
not sold here.
How many of the motorola Linux-based smartphones are available in North 
America?
The Zaurus, which was a flop for Sharp in America, is still sold in Asia.

><http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/06/03/2003311446>
>  
>
This is very good news because it means that the low-cost PC, laptop and 
motherboard vendors (such as Asus and Gigabyte) *must* provide 
Linux-compatible products. There is a benefit to this beyond short-term 
product availabilty, in that any "trusted hardware" designed to keep 
Linux off of new hardware cannot be sold to these increasingly 
significant markets. This means that there will be a good supply of 
current hardware components that will be able to run Linux regardless of 
the kind of motherboard-enforced DRM that Microsoft and others would 
like to implement.

- Evan


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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 15:39:14 2006
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:39:14 -0400
Subject: Smalltalk Club
In-Reply-To: <447DEA5E.9070803-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <C0A34F1F.5C9%cunnington@sympatico.ca> <447DEA5E.9070803@telly.org>
Message-ID: <e5saf6$rtm$1@sea.gmane.org>

Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Chris Cunnington wrote:
> 
>> Although Debian has not included Sqeuak (the Smalltalk virtual 
>> machine) in its distro yet,
>>
> Yet? Has Debian made any announced intention to change their mind and 
> include non-free (as in speech) software? Smalltalk is not open source 
> (using the OSI guidelines) or free software (under the GNU guidelines), 
> and that situation seems unlikely to change.
> 
>> as the licensing details have not been reset from the form Apple made 
>> for them in 1996, I'm not going to wait.

Squeak-1.1 is now available under APSL2. Version 1.1 is what Apple
originally released in 1996. Here's the announcement:
     http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-May/104466.html

Apparently, Alan Kay and Andreas Raab (a major Squeak contributor),
met with Steve Jobs a few months back, and then it happened.

Whether or not the "non-lawyers" that decide these matters at Debian
will consisider APSL2 good enough to include, is another question.

Edubuntu, Ubuntu (Dapper) release is supposed to include Squeak.
There was a push back from the education community to get Squeak
included, despite what issues Debian may have with licencing.

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From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 17:23:45 2006
From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:23:45 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <448196D4.6050204-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <20060603172345.GA13005@lupus.perlwolf.com>

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:04:04AM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
> 
> >Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
> >Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
> >systems.  
> >
> What's the name of the store?
> I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.

Their web sites are www.sub300.com and www.sub500.com (named for
their original entry level desktop system in US and Canadian
dollars back when the exchange rate differential was higher
and when most places had much more expensive prices on their
entry level systems).

They list their address as 344 Marlee Ave. but warn "Sorry,
no walk-in clients" and I can confirm that - I dropped by their
store (before I left Toronto) in the middle of a business day,
and there was nobody there.  I suspect they have a day job and
that the store location is used for assembly, testing, shipping,
etc. and that they only go there when they have a batch of
systems to set up (but that is extrapolation - I might have hit
them on a late lunch or they might have not heard the buzzer).

They use the Linspire (formerly known as Lindows) distribution.

I got my laptop from Open Sense Solutions, but at the time they
could only ship to US addresses and needed manual assistance to
take a non-US credit card. They use the Ubuntu distribution.
As an extra feature, on their desktop systems they sell the
hardware and provide the software changes to support having
multiple sets of keyboard/mouse/monitor on the same processor so
you can share the computer amongst a number of people at once.

I haven't had any problem with my laptop so far (3 weeks) but I
haven't tested out the use of all the hardware components yet -
I don't have a wireless host to connect to here, and don't need
a modem connection, and haven't tried to burn a CD or DVD yet.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 17:03:30 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:03:30 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <448196D4.6050204-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com>

Meng Cheah wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
> 
>> Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
>> Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
>> systems. 
> What's the name of the store?
> I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.

I don't recall.  I only remember that it's at the same location as a car
wash.
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 17:20:05 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:20:05 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <4481C0E2.9070405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca>

James Knott wrote:

>Meng Cheah wrote:
>  
>
>>James Knott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
>>>Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
>>>systems. 
>>>      
>>>
>>What's the name of the store?
>>I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't recall.  I only remember that it's at the same location as a car
>wash.
>
>  
>
I'll take a look around the next time I'm in the neighbourhood, thanks.
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 17:37:05 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:37:05 -0400
Subject: Laptops and Linux [was OTA and Linux]
In-Reply-To: <20060603172345.GA13005-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <20060603172345.GA13005@lupus.perlwolf.com>
Message-ID: <4481C8C1.5060503@pppoe.ca>

John Macdonald wrote:

>On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:04:04AM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote:
>  
>
>>James Knott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
>>>Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only Linux
>>>systems.  
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>What's the name of the store?
>>I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.
>>    
>>
>
>Their web sites are www.sub300.com and www.sub500.com (named for
>their original entry level desktop system in US and Canadian
>dollars back when the exchange rate differential was higher
>and when most places had much more expensive prices on their
>entry level systems).
>
>They list their address as 344 Marlee Ave. but warn "Sorry,
>no walk-in clients" and I can confirm that - I dropped by their
>store (before I left Toronto) in the middle of a business day,
>and there was nobody there.  I suspect they have a day job and
>that the store location is used for assembly, testing, shipping,
>etc. and that they only go there when they have a batch of
>systems to set up (but that is extrapolation - I might have hit
>them on a late lunch or they might have not heard the buzzer).
>
>They use the Linspire (formerly known as Lindows) distribution.
>
>I got my laptop from Open Sense Solutions, but at the time they
>could only ship to US addresses and needed manual assistance to
>take a non-US credit card. They use the Ubuntu distribution.
>As an extra feature, on their desktop systems they sell the
>hardware and provide the software changes to support having
>multiple sets of keyboard/mouse/monitor on the same processor so
>you can share the computer amongst a number of people at once.
>
>I haven't had any problem with my laptop so far (3 weeks) but I
>haven't tested out the use of all the hardware components yet -
>I don't have a wireless host to connect to here, and don't need
>a modem connection, and haven't tried to burn a CD or DVD yet.
>
>  
>
Thanks for the info.

Sometime ago, I was at PC Village on Yonge (near Bloor).
I asked if they sold laptops with Linux.
I was informed that they were busy enough with Windows.

The other day, I dropped by and they had a new tech.
And I just saw this on their website: *Acer Aspire 3623WXMI Notebook 
w/Linux*
http://www.pcvonline.com/productDetails.aspx?id=2426

They sell 55 Acer models and only one with Linux (the cheapest at $599).
Hugh may be right regarding Acer's marketing :-)

Meng





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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 19:28:24 2006
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:28:24 -0400
Subject: Smalltalk Club
In-Reply-To: <C0A37B98.5DB%cunnington-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447DEA5E.9070803@telly.org> <C0A37B98.5DB%cunnington@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <e5snst$8cl$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chris Cunnington wrote:
> Meeting once every six months, as the TSUG does, does not suit my learning
> needs. I need to talk to other people about the language.

For the last few years, the Smalltalk community has not had
to deal with newcomers. TSUG meetings, have lately been
"preaching to the converted", and most attendees already
know Smalltalk. It's entirely understandable that TSUG (as it
now functions) is not the right venue for you. I would think
that most Smalltalkers would regard your enthusiasm as a good
sign that there's a growing groundswell of interest in Smalltalk,
especially with technology like Seaside and Croquet now emerging.

Learning Smalltalk, when you're already a programmer who uses other
languages, can be a challenge, because edit/compile of files
just doesn't happen, when coding Smalltalk. A few hours working
with, or looking over the shoulder, of a Smalltalker can go a
long way toward breaking free of pre-conceived ideas about
programming, which hinder the learning of Smalltalk. For those
without a mentor/tutor, then IMO a somewhat poor substitute is the
Java Eclipse environment. The reason is that many Smalltalkers have
had a hand in designing and building it.

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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 19:30:56 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:30:56 -0400
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606030518g4e3e2ce5vfb37b9d8853f34f6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448089F9.5847.27ADE1F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
	 <1e55af990606022308yc7ffb7dk4ef336aa4ad8826b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1e55af990606030518g4e3e2ce5vfb37b9d8853f34f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1149363056.20086.8.camel@gandalf>

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 07:18 -0500, Sy Ali wrote:
> On 6/3/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On 6/2/06, Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > I got nowhere under Debian Sarge. XMMS, XINE, and Totem couldn't play it at all;
> > > and under Windows, the only player that recognised it was DIVX, but alas, DIVX
> > > could not render the sound. The kind of data was called "Tag 8192", whatever that
> > > is.
> >
> > I'm having similar issues.  Why did they choose something so obscure?
> > I'll just get the DVD.
> 
> I got the DVD.  It's a nice nod to The Matrix, but it could have been
> written a lot better..
> 

I say in another email that one has to be careful not to filter it
through what you've experienced under Pixar, Weta, Dreamworks, and the
like. THey all have professional writers and large budgets. This
animation was written by a rag-tag team of computer geeks, artists, and
other like minds with next to no budget. I think the accomplishment was
in the very fact that such a high-quality animation could be done using
entirely open-source software such as The GIMP and Blender.

> The unexplained time-elapse in the middle was a very bad idea.  The
> voice for the younger character doesn't seem right to me maybe until
> his accent came out way later.  The old guy tosses his walking stick
> in one scene and mysteriously picks it back up in another.  =/
> 

I said above the animation was 20 minutes; it is actually about 11
minutes (9.5 minutes not counting credits). The commentary on the
animation (not the alternative tracks on the DVD, but additional
interviews and commentary on the DVD) runs for almost 30 minutes. I
guess it takes longer to explain than to watch.

> I can easily re-encode it to other video/audio codecs, but I don't
> think it's particularly interesting apart from the last few minutes.
> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  3 20:29:59 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 16:29:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <44819DAE.5000705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org>

| D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

| >   But getting a mainstream notebook
| > running 100% under Linux is a real crap shoot.
| > 
| Not really. It's just a matter of getting a laptop without oddball hardware
| and choosing a distro that's designed to work well with laptops.

Most notebooks have oddball hardware:

- video chips that are not (yet?) supported by X.org.  Note that the
  "yet" doesn't help -- not supported NOW is the key issue.

  + old notebooks are often well supported, but who wants to buy an
    old notebook?

  + Intel chipsets are often well supported.  But the screen
    resolutions are in the BIOS ROM and often don't include the
    native resolution for the LCD!  There is a hack to solve this, but
    the hack is not standard issue in any distro that I know of:
	http://www.geocities.com/stomljen/

- 802.11g wireless radios are usually not supported by Linux these
  days

  + broadcom's chipset has finally been reverse engineered and I have
    the impression that the driver may be getting past beta.  Some
    functions are still missing, I think.

  + ndiswrapper is a hack that may work, but often it blows the kernel
    stacks (Linux is supposed to provide 4k for stacks (many distros
    choose to provide 8k to allow for sloppy drivers) but WinXP
    provides 64k so there is no guarantee that that an ndiswrapped
    driver will work).  ndiswrapper cannot provide all functions that
    a native driver would since the WinXP driver API isn't rich
    enough.

  + Intel and Atheros (I think) have open source drivers but require a
    binary slug of firmware that pure distro's won't include.

- ACPI (for suspend, for example) is really shaky in my experience.
  And the failures are hard to localize.  Apparently the AGP GART code
  is part of the problem.  Each device driver needs to do the right
  things.  So Linux is not blameless.

  The vendors' BIOS usually has ACPI that "works for WinXP" and may
  have serious bugs that they don't care to address.

  I talked to Bdale Garbee (HP Linux CTO) about this.  The laptop
  folks make some effort to have their "business" notebooks work with
  Linux, but none at all for the consumer models.  And once a model is
  superseded, no fixes are likely forthcoming.

  ACPI has replaced APM (which Linux did work well with, eventually)

- My notebook has a peculiar built-in flash memory reader.  It needs a
  slug of firmware loaded to make it act as a flash memory reader.
  There is a Linux driver that will load firmware.  But the firmware
  is only available, encrypted, in the WinXP driver.  TI has not
  chosen to release the unencrypted version, let alone the source.
  The author of the Linux driver knows how to decrypt it but appears
  to be scared of the DMCA or French law.

| This is an area where I believe Mandriva shines.

Ubuntu has apparently made a standing offer to manufacturers: send us
a few laptops and we'll work on supporting them.  Not much that they
can do about components with no released specs.

| It can autodetect what kind
| of laptop, so if there's some hw-specific stuff that it can install, it will
| try. My install on Thinkpad T42 automatically installed support for the extra
| keys and hot-plugging the docking station.

T42 is
(1) originally IBM, a fairly Linux-friendly company,
(2) been around for a while, and
(3) business class (quite expensive).
So it is not mainstream in the sense I meant it -- not Future Shop /
Best Buy, not getting cheap as dirt.  I personally drool over the T42p
(or maybe I mean T43p) but am unwilling to pay for it.

You might infer from this post that I have a certain amount of scar tissue.

| Commercial support is available for laptops purchased from Emperorlinux.com,
| and they have a pretty good selection. Good resources for DIY laptop
| installers can be found at http://tuxmobil.org/ and
| http://www.linux-laptop.net/

Sure, but these certainly are not mainstream.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 01:24:53 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:24:53 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <4481C4C5.6060300-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <44823665.1070303@rogers.com>

Meng Cheah wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
> 
>> Meng Cheah wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> James Knott wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Or perhaps they realize there's a market for computers loaded with
>>>> Linux.  There's a store on Dufferin, near Yorkdale that sells only
>>>> Linux
>>>> systems.     
>>> What's the name of the store?
>>> I'd like to drop by one of these days to check it out.
>>>   
>>
>> I don't recall.  I only remember that it's at the same location as a car
>> wash.
>>
>>  
>>
> I'll take a look around the next time I'm in the neighbourhood, thanks.


According to there web site, it's an on-line store.  :-(
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From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 01:39:44 2006
From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Erebus)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:39:44 -0400
Subject: Dapper and Firefox and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <44823665.1070303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca> <44823665.1070303@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <448239E0.1060209@rogers.com>



I upgraded to Dapper Drake (a.k.a. 6.6) the other day and the only down 
side is that periodically, for no reason that is readily apparent to me, 
when I return to my PC I find that either my Firefox and/or my 
Thunderbird have closed and I have to restart them.

Has this happened to anyone else?

Frank in Mississauga
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 02:02:32 2006
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 22:02:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dapper and Firefox and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <448239E0.1060209-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com>
 <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca>
 <44823665.1070303@rogers.com> <448239E0.1060209@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606032200560.6589@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Erebus wrote:

> I upgraded to Dapper Drake (a.k.a. 6.6) the other day and the only down side 
> is that periodically, for no reason that is readily apparent to me, when I 
> return to my PC I find that either my Firefox and/or my Thunderbird have 
> closed and I have to restart them.
>
> Has this happened to anyone else?

    What pages did you have open?

    I found that firefox often crashed when at my gmail account. This
    was with Mandriva, not Ubuntu, and it hasn't happened recently.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 02:05:54 2006
From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Erebus)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:05:54 -0400
Subject: Dapper and Firefox and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606032200560.6589-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca> <44823665.1070303@rogers.com> <448239E0.1060209@rogers.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606032200560.6589@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <44824002.7090103@rogers.com>

Good question, I typically have about 30 pages open (one of which is my 
GMail page). I didn't have this problem in the previous incarnation of 
Kubuntu with it's 1.0 version of Firefox.

Frank


Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Erebus wrote:
>
>> I upgraded to Dapper Drake (a.k.a. 6.6) the other day and the only 
>> down side is that periodically, for no reason that is readily 
>> apparent to me, when I return to my PC I find that either my Firefox 
>> and/or my Thunderbird have closed and I have to restart them.
>>
>> Has this happened to anyone else?
>
>    What pages did you have open?
>
>    I found that firefox often crashed when at my gmail account. This
>    was with Mandriva, not Ubuntu, and it hasn't happened recently.
>

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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 05:38:12 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 01:38:12 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
Message-ID: <20060604013812.5b24b96b.joehill@sympatico.ca>


I've been using rsync to keep a backup of my files on another local machine,
worked great...til today.

Sync'd my Sylpheed and Visor folders no problem, then went to sync my config
files like so:

[joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -rt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
ssh: connect to host 194.168.0.4 port 22: Connection timed out
rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [sender]
rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(434)

That's funny, because I can still SSH into that box.

Any idea what could have happened?

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The struggle between people and capital is now an epic struggle between life
and death." -- Vandana Shiva, World Social Forum, January 16, 2004
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From slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 10:17:14 2006
From: slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:17:14 +0200
Subject: Bang goes my UpTime or Lousy ScotiaBank
Message-ID: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>

Checking my account this morning I got:

"Reboot - your box has been online 24+ Hours"

Anyone else had this problem?

Any way of defeating it, short of changing banks?

It seems to be a recent change since I never had the message before

--
SlackRat
[Bill Henderson]
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From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 10:23:13 2006
From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 06:23:13 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
Message-ID: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719DF@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>

Joe,
On the daemon box, check the status of the xinet service. I find this hangs about every 6 months on my backup service. Killing it then starting it solves the problem. A restart doesn't do it 
D. 
Dave Bour
Desktop Solution Center
905.381.0077
dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca

For those who just want it to work...
Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 

(Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
PIN 3010A703 (as of May 23, 2006)  

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tlug at ss.org <owner-tlug at ss.org>
To: tlug at ss.org <tlug at ss.org>
Sent: Sun Jun 04 01:38:12 2006
Subject: [TLUG]: rsync suddenly fails?


I've been using rsync to keep a backup of my files on another local machine,
worked great...til today.

Sync'd my Sylpheed and Visor folders no problem, then went to sync my config
files like so:

[joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -rt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
ssh: connect to host 194.168.0.4 port 22: Connection timed out
rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [sender]
rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(434)

That's funny, because I can still SSH into that box.

Any idea what could have happened?

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The struggle between people and capital is now an epic struggle between life
and death." -- Vandana Shiva, World Social Forum, January 16, 2004
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 11:27:50 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 07:27:50 -0400
Subject: Bang goes my UpTime or Lousy ScotiaBank
In-Reply-To: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
References: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
Message-ID: <4482C3B6.5020907@rogers.com>

Slack Rat wrote:
> Checking my account this morning I got:
>  
> "Reboot - your box has been online 24+ Hours"
>  
> Anyone else had this problem?
>  
> Any way of defeating it, short of changing banks?
>  
> It seems to be a recent change since I never had the message before
>  

Maybe you should call your bank.  They appear to think you're running
Windows!  ;-)
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From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 14:05:10 2006
From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 10:05:10 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes - Mandriva
 LE2006
Message-ID: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca>

I have a small network with a Mandriva LE2006 box sharing files and 
printers with two WinXP boxes using Samba. The XP boxes can see and use 
the files and the Lexmark z22 usb printer attached to the Linux box. The 
Linux box can see and use the files on the two XP boxes and can see the 
two printers attached to these boxes, but not use them. One is a HP 
psc1300 printer and the other is a Lexmark z25. Everytime I try to print 
a test page to one of these printers, I hear the printer print a 
carriage return and that is it. I set the XP boxes to be able to accept 
print requests from Unix boxes. I have been trying to sort this out for 
a long time, doing a lot of research, posted the question on 
Linuxquestions.org.

Any ideas would be appreciated

-- 
Clive DaSilva CMA
Tel : 416-421-2480
Cell: 416-560-8820
Mandriva Linux LE 2006 kernel-2.6.12_22mdk

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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 14:17:54 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 10:17:54 -0400
Subject: Slackware 10.2 is released
Message-ID: <4482EB92.30206@pppoe.ca>

http://www.slackware.com/announce/10.2.php

Enjoy :-)

Meng Cheah
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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 14:46:45 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 10:46:45 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719DF-Jbakdu7TueDXKbHvCO1Mttbx/7hll2mj@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719DF@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
Message-ID: <20060604104645.7fdaba88.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 06:23:13 -0400
Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> On the daemon box, check the status of the xinet service.

I cannot find such a service. I am running Mandriva 2006 Official, and this is
what I see in /etc/init.d/

[joehill at node4 init.d]$ ls
acpi*       haldaemon*   mandrake_consmap     network*     portmap*     usb*
acpid*      halt*        mandrake_everytime*  nfs*         rawdevices*  webmin*
alsa*       harddrake*   mandrake_firstime*   nfslock*     single*      xfs*
atd*        keytable*    mDNSResponder*       nifd*        smb*
crond*      kheader*     messagebus*          ntpd*        sound*
dm*         killall*     mtink*               numlock*     sshd*
freshclam*  lisa*        netfs*               oki4daemon*  syslog*
functions   lm_sensors*  netplugd*            partmon*     udev*

Has xinetd been switched to something else?

> I find this hangs about every 6 months on my backup service. Killing it then
> starting it solves the problem. A restart doesn't do it 

How'd you know I tried that? ;-)

Thanks for you reply!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 15:59:24 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:59:24 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes
	- Mandriva LE2006
In-Reply-To: <4482E896.7010000-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca>
Message-ID: <1149436764.3710.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2006-06-04 at 10:05 -0400, Clive DaSilva wrote:
> I have a small network with a Mandriva LE2006 box sharing files and 
> printers with two WinXP boxes using Samba. The XP boxes can see and use 
> the files and the Lexmark z22 usb printer attached to the Linux box. The 
> Linux box can see and use the files on the two XP boxes and can see the 
> two printers attached to these boxes, but not use them. One is a HP 
> psc1300 printer and the other is a Lexmark z25. Everytime I try to print 
> a test page to one of these printers, I hear the printer print a 
> carriage return and that is it. I set the XP boxes to be able to accept 
> print requests from Unix boxes. I have been trying to sort this out for 
> a long time, doing a lot of research, posted the question on 
> Linuxquestions.org.
> 
> Any ideas would be appreciated

If the printer is reacting to the print job (you mentioned hearing a CR)
then the problem is the format of the print job arriving at the printer.
I'm not familiar with the printer, but the specs online say it supports
Linux and there are linux drivers for old Linux distros.

It is possible that Windows is sending a printer reset and that is the
movement that you hear.

I think this is key to your problem. When printing through a Windows PC
the print driver on Windows is not used, it assumes the print job is
already in a format suitable for the printer. This means that a suitable
print driver needs to be installed on the Linux system. The printer in
question sounds like an inexpensive version. These printers, especially
of that vintage, didn't support standard printer languages. They often
didn't support plain text, but required a print driver to produce a
bitmap suitable for the printer.

Try the print drivers provided by Lexmark. A lot of changes to print
spoolers has happened since then so there's a good chance that the
drivers will not work out of the box.

Another option is to try a similar print driver from the Linux distro.
My Fedora has a Z23 support.

I hope that helps.

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From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 16:28:22 2006
From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:28:22 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
Message-ID: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E1@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>

Don't know mandrake being a Fedora guy myself. Try a "ps -ef|grep rsync" on the daemon box and trace the process parent id.
Might help find the control/startup process. 
don't know what else to suggest. 
D
 
Dave Bour
Desktop Solution Center
905.381.0077
dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca

For those who just want it to work...
Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 

(Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
PIN 3010A703 (as of May 23, 2006)  

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tlug at ss.org <owner-tlug at ss.org>
To: tlug at ss.org <tlug at ss.org>
Sent: Sun Jun 04 10:46:45 2006
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: rsync suddenly fails?

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 06:23:13 -0400
Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> On the daemon box, check the status of the xinet service.

I cannot find such a service. I am running Mandriva 2006 Official, and this is
what I see in /etc/init.d/

[joehill at node4 init.d]$ ls
acpi*       haldaemon*   mandrake_consmap     network*     portmap*     usb*
acpid*      halt*        mandrake_everytime*  nfs*         rawdevices*  webmin*
alsa*       harddrake*   mandrake_firstime*   nfslock*     single*      xfs*
atd*        keytable*    mDNSResponder*       nifd*        smb*
crond*      kheader*     messagebus*          ntpd*        sound*
dm*         killall*     mtink*               numlock*     sshd*
freshclam*  lisa*        netfs*               oki4daemon*  syslog*
functions   lm_sensors*  netplugd*            partmon*     udev*

Has xinetd been switched to something else?

> I find this hangs about every 6 months on my backup service. Killing it then
> starting it solves the problem. A restart doesn't do it 

How'd you know I tried that? ;-)

Thanks for you reply!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac
--
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From michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 16:44:07 2006
From: michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Newman)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 12:44:07 -0400
Subject: Bang goes my UpTime or Lousy ScotiaBank
In-Reply-To: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
References: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
Message-ID: <44830DD7.4040107@gmail.com>

Slack Rat wrote:
> Checking my account this morning I got:
>  
> "Reboot - your box has been online 24+ Hours"
>  
> Anyone else had this problem?
Which browser are you using?
Maybe check your HTTP headers to see what kind of information your 
browser is sending out:
http://www.ioerror.us/ip/headers

More than likely it's something on their end. If a phone call won't fix 
it, there's always PC Financial. ;)
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 18:33:41 2006
From: slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:33:41 +0200
Subject: Bang goes my UpTime or Lousy ScotiaBank
References: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar> <44830DD7.4040107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c68805$67e9afe0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Newman" <michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

> Which browser are you using?
> Maybe check your HTTP headers to see what kind of information your 
> browser is sending out:
> http://www.ioerror.us/ip/headers
> 
> More than likely it's something on their end. If a phone call won't fix 
> it, there's always PC Financial. ;)

At the time I was using Opera, which I always use, set to ID as 
Internet Explorer from a Windows partition on a dual boot
XP/Slack 10.2 laptop

OK, so I didn't reboot and tried again a few minutes later with
the same result. "[blah] Reboot  [blah]"

I tried again  just now and everything went fine

They do refer to "security precautions" _before_ logging on
in one of their blurbs on how they protect privacy etc.
and I did get the message immediately on bringing up the 
ScotiaBank site via a bookmark.

It would have been middle of the night EDT when I logged in
and I am on a French ISP, but don't see how that would affect
it since I have had exactly the same setup for over a year now.

The only thing I could think of was that they  might have been 
trying some new security scheme in the night when things were 
relatively quiet.

-- 
Slackrat
[Bill Henderson]


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From agtnews-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 19:08:14 2006
From: agtnews-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Allen Taylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:08:14 -0400
Subject: Slackware 10.2 is released
In-Reply-To: <4482EB92.30206-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482EB92.30206@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <20060604190814.GA23025@thecat.localnet>

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 10:17:54AM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote:
> http://www.slackware.com/announce/10.2.php
> 
> Enjoy :-)

OK - I'll byte - am I missing something obvious here - something's gone
over my head? In any case, I've been a happy user of 10.2 since Sept.,
when it was released. I realize that Pat doesn't do too much in the way
of keeping fresh news on the slackware web site
(http://www.slackware.com) but the real news is in the change logs
(http://www.slackware.com/changelog/).

Looking forward to 10.3 (or 11.0)!

--
Allen
--
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 20:06:51 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:06:51 -0400
Subject: Slackware 10.2 is released
In-Reply-To: <20060604190814.GA23025-70WplSiaoiAG/9ncUZ6upg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482EB92.30206@pppoe.ca> <20060604190814.GA23025@thecat.localnet>
Message-ID: <44833D5B.9030109@pppoe.ca>

Allen Taylor wrote:

>On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 10:17:54AM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote:
>  
>
>>http://www.slackware.com/announce/10.2.php
>>
>>Enjoy :-)
>>    
>>
>
>OK - I'll byte - am I missing something obvious here - something's gone
>over my head? In any case, I've been a happy user of 10.2 since Sept.,
>when it was released. I realize that Pat doesn't do too much in the way
>of keeping fresh news on the slackware web site
>(http://www.slackware.com) but the real news is in the change logs
>(http://www.slackware.com/changelog/).
>
>Looking forward to 10.3 (or 11.0)!
>
>--
>Allen
>  
>
Mea culpa, I'd better get more sleep :-)

I've been running Debian and waiting to try Slackware 11.0 which is on 
pre-order.
I used to run Slackware until Pat's mystery illness which is when I 
switched to Debian.
I even downloaded the first 2 CDs thinking it was 11.0 :-)

Thanks for "byting".

"Sleep that knits up the ravell?d sleave of care,
The death of each day?s life, sore labour?s bath,
Balm of hurt minds, great nature?s second course,
Chief nourisher in life?s feast." - Macbeth

Meng Cheah
--
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From frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 20:43:28 2006
From: frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:43:28 -0400
Subject: Datasource pool  in exchange installing a forum on you home machine.
In-Reply-To: <448239E0.1060209-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca> <44823665.1070303@rogers.com> <448239E0.1060209@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <8C8562EAB16A1E4-16D4-DAA0@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com>

Hi,
 
I have a database cluster running on a 100M/1000G site($70CAD/month). If you need a database pool and you be happy to install our forum on your home machine, even running it at backend, we would provide you the database pool(JDBC). We need spread out the forum on multiple sites to help those people living in dictorship countries. We can also provide all source code loaded into Eclipse. It may be useful for you.
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Frank Peng. 
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com
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From frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 20:46:23 2006
From: frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:46:23 -0400
Subject: Datasource pool  in exchange installing a forum on you home
 machine.
In-Reply-To: <8C8562EAB16A1E4-16D4-DAA0-MSmFgb0UDN4dn2rV/jiQSbpta98KZJIQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <4481710D.9080800@rogers.com> <448196D4.6050204@pppoe.ca> <4481C0E2.9070405@rogers.com> <4481C4C5.6060300@pppoe.ca> <44823665.1070303@rogers.com> <448239E0.1060209@rogers.com> <8C8562EAB16A1E4-16D4-DAA0@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C8562F138B5164-16D4-DAAD@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com>

Please visit our web site for details.
 
https://breakevilaxis.org/mvnforum/mvnforum/index?lang=en
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Frank Peng. 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Sent: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:43:28 -0400
Subject: [TLUG]: Datasource pool in exchange installing a forum on you home machine. 


Hi,
 
I have a database cluster running on a 100M/1000G site($70CAD/month). If you need a database pool and you be happy to install our forum on your home machine, even running it at backend, we would provide you the database pool(JDBC). We need spread out the forum on multiple sites to help those people living in dictorship countries. We can also provide all source code loaded into Eclipse. It may be useful for you.
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Frank Peng. 


Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com 
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com
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From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  4 22:02:01 2006
From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:02:01 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes
 - Mandriva LE2006
In-Reply-To: <1149436764.3710.49.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca> <1149436764.3710.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <44835859.7060709@iprimus.ca>

John Van Ostrand wrote:

>On Sun, 2006-06-04 at 10:05 -0400, Clive DaSilva wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a small network with a Mandriva LE2006 box sharing files and 
>>printers with two WinXP boxes using Samba. The XP boxes can see and use 
>>the files and the Lexmark z22 usb printer attached to the Linux box. The 
>>Linux box can see and use the files on the two XP boxes and can see the 
>>two printers attached to these boxes, but not use them. One is a HP 
>>psc1300 printer and the other is a Lexmark z25. Everytime I try to print 
>>a test page to one of these printers, I hear the printer print a 
>>carriage return and that is it. I set the XP boxes to be able to accept 
>>print requests from Unix boxes. I have been trying to sort this out for 
>>a long time, doing a lot of research, posted the question on 
>>Linuxquestions.org.
>>
>>Any ideas would be appreciated
>>    
>>
>
>If the printer is reacting to the print job (you mentioned hearing a CR)
>then the problem is the format of the print job arriving at the printer.
>I'm not familiar with the printer, but the specs online say it supports
>Linux and there are linux drivers for old Linux distros.
>
>It is possible that Windows is sending a printer reset and that is the
>movement that you hear.
>
>I think this is key to your problem. When printing through a Windows PC
>the print driver on Windows is not used, it assumes the print job is
>already in a format suitable for the printer. This means that a suitable
>print driver needs to be installed on the Linux system. The printer in
>question sounds like an inexpensive version. These printers, especially
>of that vintage, didn't support standard printer languages. They often
>didn't support plain text, but required a print driver to produce a
>bitmap suitable for the printer.
>
>Try the print drivers provided by Lexmark. A lot of changes to print
>spoolers has happened since then so there's a good chance that the
>drivers will not work out of the box.
>
>Another option is to try a similar print driver from the Linux distro.
>My Fedora has a Z23 support.
>
>I hope that helps.
>
>--
>The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
>
>  
>
Thanks John

Trying that now, using the Z35 drivers but not much difference. I get 
the feeling that its more of a network problem than a driver problem, 
because when I pull up the CUPS admin in a browser, it shows the 
printers attached to the XP box but there is a comment under the printer 
line saying "tree connect failed" .... will have to keep researching this



-- 
Clive DaSilva CMA
Tel : 416-421-2480
Cell: 416-560-8820
Mandriva Linux LE 2006 kernel-2.6.12_22mdk

--
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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 00:26:08 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:26:08 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E1-Jbakdu7TueDXKbHvCO1Mttbx/7hll2mj@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E1@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
Message-ID: <20060604202608.3d8ad5bb.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:28:22 -0400
Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Don't know mandrake being a Fedora guy myself. Try a "ps -ef|grep rsync" on
> the daemon box and trace the process parent id. 

I did what you suggested and got this:

[joehill at node4 ~]$ ps -ef|grep rsync
joehill  11959 11916  0 20:18 pts/0    00:00:00 grep rsync

> Might help find the control/startup process.

Which is the PID that I need to kill?

Apologies for my newbishness :-)

Many thanks for your help!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ya know they murdered X And tried to blame it on Islam He turned the power to
the have-nots And then came the shot -- Rage Against the Machine
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 01:03:04 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:03:04 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <448382C8.8040203@telly.org>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

>Most notebooks have oddball hardware:
>
>- video chips that are not (yet?) supported by X.org.  Note that the
>  "yet" doesn't help -- not supported NOW is the key issue.
>  
>
Not my experience.

Check out the laptops currently available. How many use video that isn't 
Intel, ATI or nVidia?

>- 802.11g wireless radios are usually not supported by Linux these days
>  
>
Totally the opposite of my experience. Atheros and Intel, which 
constitute the bulk of the g-speed cards in laptops, are both well 
supported. The Atheros g-card in my Thinkpad was immediately seen and 
supported by the current Mandriva.

The fact that one vendor -- Broadcom -- is Linux-hostile does not equate 
to the whole class of hardware being poorly supported. Intel, Ralink and 
Realtek either actively participate in the development of drivers for 
their chipsets, or wrote it themselves! Anyone using the Centrino 
chipset bundle is certainly safe.

>  + Intel and Atheros (I think) have open source drivers but require a binary slug of firmware that pure distro's won't include.
>  
>
Then use a less-pure distro. ;-)

>- My notebook has a peculiar built-in flash memory reader.
>
Some of these are indeed oddball hardware. Some -- including CF/SD 
memory readers in IBM and Fijitsu laptops I have used -- look like USB 
connections and are supported completely.

>| This is an area where I believe Mandriva shines.
>
>Ubuntu has apparently made a standing offer to manufacturers: send us a few laptops and we'll work on supporting them.  Not much that they can do about components with no released specs.
>  
>
In Linux, sitting back and waiting for hardware vendors to send you 
stuff can be a very unrewarding tactic. As I said, Mandriva has been 
proactive in this area.

>(1) originally IBM, a fairly Linux-friendly company,
>  
>
As are HP, Fujitsu and Sharp -- between them you have some of the most 
popular laptop makers worldwide.

>(2) been around for a while,
>
The T43 is newer and just as well supported.

>(3) business class (quite expensive).
>  
>
The Thinkpad R series -- its mainstream units -- are also well 
supported. I have personally used X and T series with good success under 
Linux.

>So it is not mainstream in the sense I meant it -- not Future Shop Best Buy, not getting cheap as dirt.
>
A little research goes a long way. One can search through many different 
makes and models at http://www.linux-laptop.net/ and find out what 
others have said about the oddball-level of their hardware.

>| Good resources for DIY laptop installers can be found at http://tuxmobil.org/ and
>| http://www.linux-laptop.net/
>
>Sure, but these certainly are not mainstream.
>  
>
Why not?

- Evan
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 01:26:31 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:26:31 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <448382C8.8040203-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
	 <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
	 <448382C8.8040203@telly.org>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >- video chips that are not (yet?) supported by X.org.  Note that the
> >  "yet" doesn't help -- not supported NOW is the key issue.
> >
> Not my experience.
>
> Check out the laptops currently available. How many use video that isn't
> Intel, ATI or nVidia?

And of those current ATI and nVidia chips, how many are FULLY
supported?  They work - but not all features, and in most cases not as
fast as under Windows.  This is probably also true of the Intel
chipsets, but I'm more aware of the others.

I'm a huge Linux advocate myself.  But to argue vehemently for
something when there is significant proof to the contrary is probably
more damaging than it is productive.  Linux has weaknesses, and
acknowledging them is more likely to win converts than denying them.
Admit the flaws, then talk about the strengths - we have more than
enough of those.

P.S. to Sy: I had to look up "top posting."  Personally, I think it's
acceptable when the subject provides significant context, but I'll try
to avoid it in future.  I had no idea it was such a faux pas.  :-)

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 01:45:42 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:45:42 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>	 <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>	 <448382C8.8040203@telly.org> <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44838CC6.3000106@pppoe.ca>

Giles Orr wrote:

> I'm a huge Linux advocate myself.  But to argue vehemently for
> something when there is significant proof to the contrary is probably
> more damaging than it is productive.  Linux has weaknesses, and
> acknowledging them is more likely to win converts than denying them.
> Admit the flaws, then talk about the strengths - we have more than
> enough of those.

Lenovo To Shun Linux

http://www.crn.com/sections/infrastructure/infrastructure.jhtml?articleId=188701277

"We will not have models available for Linux, and we do not have custom 
order, either," said Frank Kardonski, Lenovo's worldwide product manager 
for Lenovo 3000 offerings. "What you see is what you get. And at this 
point, it's Windows."

If true, I'm deeply disappointed. I'm hoping that consumers will vote 
with their $ and feet.
In the long run, I beleive that they will come around but by then, they 
will have dissipated the goodwill
they paid buying the company and other companies will have increased 
their market share.

Meng Cheah

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From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 01:45:45 2006
From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:45:45 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
Message-ID: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>

Should also get a line something like:

Root xxx yyy 0 time port runtime /sbin/rsyncd 

If not, implies its already dead. If you do get a line, kll the yyy process

If dead, simply yet to start the service again

D. 
Dave Bour
Desktop Solution Center
905.381.0077
dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca

For those who just want it to work...
Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 

(Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
PIN 3010A703 (as of May 23, 2006)  

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tlug at ss.org <owner-tlug at ss.org>
To: tlug at ss.org <tlug at ss.org>
Sent: Sun Jun 04 20:26:08 2006
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: rsync suddenly fails?

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:28:22 -0400
Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Don't know mandrake being a Fedora guy myself. Try a "ps -ef|grep rsync" on
> the daemon box and trace the process parent id. 

I did what you suggested and got this:

[joehill at node4 ~]$ ps -ef|grep rsync
joehill  11959 11916  0 20:18 pts/0    00:00:00 grep rsync

> Might help find the control/startup process.

Which is the PID that I need to kill?

Apologies for my newbishness :-)

Many thanks for your help!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ya know they murdered X And tried to blame it on Islam He turned the power to
the have-nots And then came the shot -- Rage Against the Machine
--
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 01:50:51 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:50:51 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>	 <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>	 <448382C8.8040203@telly.org> <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44838DFB.1050702@telly.org>

Giles Orr wrote:

> And of those current ATI and nVidia chips, how many are FULLY
> supported?  They work - but not all features, and in most cases not as
> fast as under Windows.  This is probably also true of the Intel
> chipsets, but I'm more aware of the others.

Examples?

> But to argue vehemently for  something when there is significant proof 
> to the contrary is probably
> more damaging than it is productive.

I'm not arguing _for_ anything. I'm arguing _against_ the assertion that 
"getting a mainstream notebook running 100% under Linux is a real crap 
shoot". Things are far from perfect, but also nowhere nearly as bad as 
is being asserted.

As always, it is a matter of buyer beware. Anyone who doesn't do their 
shopping, to see what works and what doesn't, is going to get burned -- 
and this doesn't just apply to laptops (indeed, it doesn't just apply to 
Linux, either ;-) . A combination of a laptop using conventional 
components, together with a distro that supplies drivers for them and is 
tuned to the needs of laptop users, is going to increase their odds 
significantly. Finding a combination isn't difficult.

Anyone who complains that "Linux doesn't support my laptop" when they 
really mean "my distro doesn't support it" ought to know better. I still 
don't consider Ubuntu a laptop-friendly distro no matter what its makers 
claim. I wasn't able to install hedgehog well on my T42, and I gave up 
after a few tries. Mandriva, Xandros and IIRC even OpenSUSE are much 
better candidates based on what I've heard.

Even so, when Debian and Ubuntu honcho Jeff Waugh had his laptop stolen 
in Montr?al a fem months ago, he had no problem buying an off-the-shelf 
"mainstream" replacement in Toronto the next day, and having it working 
to his satisfaction at the TLUG meeting at which he presented shortly 
after.
 
- Evan

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From michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 02:04:29 2006
From: michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Newman)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:04:29 -0400
Subject: Bang goes my UpTime or Lousy ScotiaBank
In-Reply-To: <001901c68805$67e9afe0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
References: <000601c687c0$0da9f2f0$bd01a8c0@darkstar> <44830DD7.4040107@gmail.com> <001901c68805$67e9afe0$bd01a8c0@darkstar>
Message-ID: <4483912D.6020302@gmail.com>

Slack Rat wrote:
> The only thing I could think of was that they  might have been trying 
> some new security scheme in the night when things were relatively quiet.

There were a few complaints about it on Usenet and one gentleman's blog 
around the 15th of last month. Sounds like they've been fiddling.

Glad to hear that everything's working!

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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 02:08:59 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:08:59 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes
	- Mandriva LE2006
In-Reply-To: <44835859.7060709-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca>
	 <1149436764.3710.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <44835859.7060709@iprimus.ca>
Message-ID: <1149473340.3710.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2006-06-04 at 18:02 -0400, Clive DaSilva wrote:
> Trying that now, using the Z35 drivers but not much difference. I get 
> the feeling that its more of a network problem than a driver problem, 
> because when I pull up the CUPS admin in a browser, it shows the 
> printers attached to the XP box but there is a comment under the printer 
> line saying "tree connect failed" .... will have to keep researching this

The first thing I try to do in cases like this is to determine if the
printer is actually getting the print job. If the printer has an LED
that blinks when it recieves data, I watch it intently when I send a
print job.

The other tactic I try is to disable the printer (paper out, or turned
off) then I print the job and see if it appears in the Windows spooler.

If it is not making it to the Windows PC you may need to:

1. Print using an XP login and account. I usually setup a separate XP
account for this and set the password to not expire. You could also
enable the guest account and set suitable permissions on the Windows
printer, but I don't consider this to be very secure.

2. Apply some of the registry changes (usually found
in /usr/share/doc/samba*/registry).

3. Check firewall settings on the XP systems. It's always a pain when I
realize I was fighting a firewall the whole time.

4. Make sure that the samba server can resolve the PC name or has an IP
address in the printer setup. On larger windows networks one uses WINS
servers (samba with "wins server = yes") or DNS. Make sure that you can
run "nmblookup PCNAME" on Linux. This ensures that samba can find the
PC.

Manually test using smbclient:

smbclient -L PCNAME
smbclient //PCNAME/SHARE_NAME -I ip.add.re.ss -U XPLOGIN

Hope it helps.

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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 02:19:53 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 22:19:53 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4-Jbakdu7TueDXKbHvCO1Mttbx/7hll2mj@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
Message-ID: <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:45:45 -0400
Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Should also get a line something like:
> 
> Root xxx yyy 0 time port runtime /sbin/rsyncd 
> 
> If not, implies its already dead. If you do get a line, kll the yyy process
> 
> If dead, simply yet to start the service again

I guess that's the problem, I have no 'rsyncd' on that system :-\

So how the heck was I able to use rsync for a week?? LOL!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just has
an economy that makes no sense to capitalism.
--
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 08:35:20 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:35:20 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <44838CC6.3000106-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
  <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>  <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org>
  <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>  <448382C8.8040203@telly.org>
 <1f13df280606041826t20eb7645hc6c07775f8d98669@mail.gmail.com>
 <44838CC6.3000106@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <ubll.vqgzv@qvrc.gvp.iu>


On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Meng Cheah wrote:

> Lenovo To Shun Linux
>
> http://www.crn.com/sections/infrastructure/infrastructure.jhtml?articleId=188701277
>
> "We will not have models available for Linux, and we do not have custom 
> order, either," said Frank Kardonski, Lenovo's worldwide product manager for 
> Lenovo 3000 offerings. "What you see is what you get. And at this point, it's 
> Windows."

Byebye Lenovo. You just made sure that most sysadmins and technical IT 
officers will recommend your products to their company anymore.

Peter
--
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 08:39:59 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:39:59 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
 <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <onaov.r@mkicz.zlc.piiup.iu>



On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, JoeHill wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:45:45 -0400
> Dave Bour got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
>
>> Should also get a line something like:
>>
>> Root xxx yyy 0 time port runtime /sbin/rsyncd
>>
>> If not, implies its already dead. If you do get a line, kll the yyy process
>>
>> If dead, simply yet to start the service again
>
> I guess that's the problem, I have no 'rsyncd' on that system :-\
>
> So how the heck was I able to use rsync for a week?? LOL!

Someone *other* than you had rsyncd running on that system ? ;-)

Peter
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 12:43:55 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:43:55 -0400
Subject: Latex help
Message-ID: <20060605124355.GA8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

I'm trying to draw a box around a group of paragraphs.  That works
successfully but, the paragraphs inside the box, to not indent like
those outside of the box:

\fbox{
    \begin{minipage}{3.2in}

    This is paragraph one.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.

    This is paragraph two.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.

    \end{minipage}
}

This is a paragraph outside the box.  It indents correctly.

What have I missed?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 3 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
--
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 13:45:29 2006
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:45:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Latex help
In-Reply-To: <20060605124355.GA8809-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060605124355.GA8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <50207.207.188.65.23.1149515129.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>


The newsgroup comp.lang.tex would be a good place to ask this question.
Peter, (who has been known to top post..)

> I'm trying to draw a box around a group of paragraphs.  That works
> successfully but, the paragraphs inside the box, to not indent like
> those outside of the box:
>
> \fbox{
>     \begin{minipage}{3.2in}
>
>     This is paragraph one.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>     dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
>
>     This is paragraph two.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>     dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
>
>     \end{minipage}
> }
>
> This is a paragraph outside the box.  It indents correctly.
>
> What have I missed?
>
> --
> Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
> System Administrator    | Uptime 3 days
> http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>


-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 13:58:53 2006
From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dapper and Firefox and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <44824002.7090103-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44824002.7090103@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20060605135853.50949.qmail@web61317.mail.yahoo.com>

I got no problem with it either on Ubuntu 5.10. 


EK


Erebus <erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote: Good question, I typically have about 30 pages open (one of which is my 
GMail page). I didn't have this problem in the previous incarnation of 
Kubuntu with it's 1.0 version of Firefox.

Frank


Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Erebus wrote:
>
>> I upgraded to Dapper Drake (a.k.a. 6.6) the other day and the only 
>> down side is that periodically, for no reason that is readily 
>> apparent to me, when I return to my PC I find that either my Firefox 
>> and/or my Thunderbird have closed and I have to restart them.
>>
>> Has this happened to anyone else?
>
>    What pages did you have open?
>
>    I found that firefox often crashed when at my gmail account. This
>    was with Mandriva, not Ubuntu, and it hasn't happened recently.
>

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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 14:05:35 2006
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:05:35 +0300
Subject: Host how to
In-Reply-To: <20060526204006.GA10046-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870605252321y46cd5ab7w7bfa56a3a66a5df8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060526204006.GA10046@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <b8f780870606050705p4be97aa9s2ec35ab9e4f4f7e6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi again
 Thanks for the response. I am sorry I took a while to reply, but I am far
behind my mail. Anyway, it look like you are getting the expected response,
while it is failing on my box. Here is what i get when I try your example
word to word

# host tlug.ss.org
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
]# host waltdnes.org
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
# host 192.234.254.38
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached

Can't really explain it. I am using the same host to respond to this email
which mean I can't be having nwtwork problems. Could there be a specific
port I need to have iptable allow? Nothing else make sense as to why it
should work for you while its failing for me.
 As for what I was trying to so, I was helping a friend set up evolution. He
currently use a webmail and I wanted to poke his mail provider IP with nmap
and see if pop port is open. Unfortunately, I only had  domain name with me,
and nmap doesn't work very well with domain name for me. I hence tried using
"host" to extract the Ip and that is how I landed in above issue.
 Thank you for your help. At least I know I am in the write path, just
getting killed by some funky issues that I can't fathom

William


On 26/05/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 26, 2006 at 09:21:44AM +0300, Kihara Muriithi wrote
> > Hi,
> > There is this tool called host that is supposed to resolve a host
> > names to an IP. I am having issues on how to use it, i.e the syntax
> > and switch use to make it helpful. Man page is a little unfriendly
> > and google threw way too way too many useless pages due to the
> > heavy usage of the word "host" in other context. Would someone be
> > kind enough to type a few oxamples of how to use this tool, i.e one
> > extracting a name from IP address and the other doing reverse?
>
>   It's a general tool that can do *A LOT* of different things.  It also
> deals with DNS information, which is a complex area.  That's why it's
> not simple.  Some of the more common uses are...
>
>
> 1) Looking up IP addresses for specific machines.  It will also list
> mail handlers (MX)...
>
> [m3000][waltdnes][~] host tlug.ss.org
> tlug.ss.org has address 192.234.254.38
> tlug.ss.org mail is handled by 1 dsl.ss.org.
>
> [m3000][waltdnes][~] host waltdnes.org
> waltdnes.org has address 216.40.33.117
> waltdnes.org mail is handled by 10 manson.clss.net.
>
>
> 2) Converting IP addresses to machine names... if the machine has an
> rDNS entry in the first place
>
> [m3000][root][~] host 192.234.254.38
> Host 38.254.234.192.in-addr.arpa not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
>
> [m3000][waltdnes][~] host 216.40.33.117
> 117.33.40.216.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer ddwww.tucows.com.
>
>
> 3) Listing specific DNS records (MX, CNAME, etc)
>
> [m3000][root][~] host -t CNAME www.waltdnes.org
> www.waltdnes.org is an alias for www.clss.net.
>
> [m3000][waltdnes][~] host -t MX waltdnes.org
> waltdnes.org mail is handled by 10 manson.clss.net.
>
>
> --
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
> My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 14:23:11 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0400
Subject: Host how to
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870606050705p4be97aa9s2ec35ab9e4f4f7e6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870605252321y46cd5ab7w7bfa56a3a66a5df8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060526204006.GA10046@waltdnes.org>
	 <b8f780870606050705p4be97aa9s2ec35ab9e4f4f7e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1149517391.1749.135.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 17:05 +0300, Kihara Muriithi wrote:

> Hi again
>  Thanks for the response. I am sorry I took a while to reply, but I am
> far behind my mail. Anyway, it look like you are getting the expected
> response, while it is failing on my box. Here is what i get when I try
> your example word to word
> 
> # host tlug.ss.org
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
> ]# host waltdnes.org
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
> # host MailScanner warning: numerical links are often
> malicious:192.234.254.38
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
> 
> Can't really explain it. I am using the same host to respond to this
> email which mean I can't be having nwtwork problems. Could there be a
> specific port I need to have iptable allow? Nothing else make sense as
> to why it should work for you while its failing for me.
>  As for what I was trying to so, I was helping a friend set up
> evolution. He currently use a webmail and I wanted to poke his mail
> provider IP with nmap and see if pop port is open. Unfortunately, I
> only had  domain name with me, and nmap doesn't work very well with
> domain name for me. I hence tried using "host" to extract the Ip and
> that is how I landed in above issue.
>  Thank you for your help. At least I know I am in the write path, just
> getting killed by some funky issues that I can't fathom


That usually means that your /etc/resolv.conf has improper "nameserver"
addresses.

According to my man page, the way that you are using host uses the
standard DNS UDP protocols, so if DNS works, then so will host.

An alternative command, that I use regularly is dig. Dig provides the
same functionality except it outputs in BIND format which is not as easy
to read.

To see if it is your /etc/resolv.conf configuration find a DNS server IP
address and put it on the command line: e,g:

host tlug.ss.org 216.16.235.2

If that works then check your resolv.conf.

-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 14:23:35 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:23:35 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net> <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <20060605142335.GA30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 04:44:00PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote:
> My recollection of that event is that it was anything but clean.  It was 
> quite a painful experience and took place over several months.  It's a 
> perfect example of whatr I'm talking about - the monolithic design made 
> the change hard.

Only redhat kept resisting the change.  They dragged it out for their
users, everyone else just switched and was happy.  Alan Cox kept using
the old VM in his patches and redhat used that for months before Alan
finally accepted the new VM was the way to go.

> I disagree.  A lot of problems have occured because the Linux kernel (and 
> indeed any monolithic kernel) is not very modular.  Many of these problems 
> simply can't occur when the only way system processes can communicate is 
> through a tightly defined protocol.  See my earlier example of sshd and 
> httpd: one can only kill the other if the kernel allows it (ie, if there 
> is a bug in the kernel).
> 
> I absolutely am.  I am convinced we'll see much more rapid system 
> development under a well planned microkernel system.

Then what took Hurd so long?

> Sure.  Because a lot of hard work has gone into it.  I am emphasising that 
> it is simply easier to make a microkernel system stable.

Well other than QNX, I am still waiting to see a successful microkernel
system that gets used.

> I think *nix is great.  It is the best OS out there in common use today. 
> But it is showing its age.  Plan 9 is a great example of how unix would 
> have been if it had been started in the 1990s.  I reiterate, if we have 
> not advanced beyond the current crop of OSes in 20 years I think we've 
> made a big mistake.  Most of the OSes on the horizon (experimental or 
> otherwise) draw conceptually from unix while leaving behind much of the 
> baggage.

Well the unix user space is excelent.  Little tools (modular design
after all) that do one thing well, working together is great.  Of course
there is no reason a microkernel based system couldn't use the same user
space, and work great.

> But this is precisely the problem.  The bug was not in the FS, it was in 
> the buffer-cache but it damaged the filesystem.  In a microkernel based 
> system the communication protocol between the FS service and the 
> buffer-cache service would not allow the damage to occur.  Indeed if it 
> did the protocol itself would be at fault.

If I was to accidentally byte swap some data in one module (say it's a
module that does caching) before sending it to the filesystem module,
there is nothing the filesystem module can do to save me.  Bugs are
bugs, and they will hurt data in some cases.

Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 14:36:47 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:36:47 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 10:19:53PM -0400, JoeHill wrote:
> I guess that's the problem, I have no 'rsyncd' on that system :-\
> 
> So how the heck was I able to use rsync for a week?? LOL!

Simple.  You are using rsync over ssh NOT rsynd the daemon.  most people
don't use the deamon, unless they are offering an rsync public server.

If you can ssh to the machine with the same user and ip, then rsync
should work too.  Maybe turn on verbose on rsync and see if it says
anything.

Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 14:54:32 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:54:32 -0400
Subject: OTA and Linux
In-Reply-To: <448382C8.8040203-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <50150.207.188.64.136.1149274942.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606021957080.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <44819DAE.5000705@telly.org> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606031526280.28729@redshift.mimosa.com> <448382C8.8040203@telly.org>
Message-ID: <20060605145432.GC30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 09:03:04PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Not my experience.
> 
> Check out the laptops currently available. How many use video that isn't 
> Intel, ATI or nVidia?

Well nvidia is usually easy, but good luck finding a new laptop with
nvidia graphics.  Intel can usualyl be made to work, and ATI is just
plain painful in general if you get a new chip.

> Totally the opposite of my experience. Atheros and Intel, which 
> constitute the bulk of the g-speed cards in laptops, are both well 
> supported. The Atheros g-card in my Thinkpad was immediately seen and 
> supported by the current Mandriva.
> 
> The fact that one vendor -- Broadcom -- is Linux-hostile does not equate 
> to the whole class of hardware being poorly supported. Intel, Ralink and 
> Realtek either actively participate in the development of drivers for 
> their chipsets, or wrote it themselves! Anyone using the Centrino 
> chipset bundle is certainly safe.

Well every laptop I have seen in the last few years has used braodcom or
intel.  I don't think I have ever seen atheros in anything.

> Then use a less-pure distro. ;-)

Some people don't want to.  Adding the firmware yourself isn't a big deal
of course.

> Some of these are indeed oddball hardware. Some -- including CF/SD 
> memory readers in IBM and Fijitsu laptops I have used -- look like USB 
> connections and are supported completely.

The TI based ones (PCI connection not USB) used on many HP/Compaq
systems certain;ly is a pain.  Very dumb design, and doesn't work past
512MB cards (at least on the one I tried) under windows.

> In Linux, sitting back and waiting for hardware vendors to send you 
> stuff can be a very unrewarding tactic. As I said, Mandriva has been 
> proactive in this area.
> 
> As are HP, Fujitsu and Sharp -- between them you have some of the most 
> popular laptop makers worldwide.
> 
> The T43 is newer and just as well supported.
> 
> The Thinkpad R series -- its mainstream units -- are also well 
> supported. I have personally used X and T series with good success under 
> Linux.

I think ibm laptops have in general been the least painful to setup
linux on, until they started using ATI video chips on some models.  Then
I have no end of problems.

> A little research goes a long way. One can search through many different 
> makes and models at http://www.linux-laptop.net/ and find out what 
> others have said about the oddball-level of their hardware.

So you have to hope someone has already tried to make the model you want
work, and that they knew what they were doing and that they wrote a
report?

> Why not?

Because they cost too much compared to the junk sold at
futureshop/bestbuy/etc. :)

Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 15:18:24 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:18:24 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <20060605142335.GA30185-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net> <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net> <20060605142335.GA30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <44844B40.2000503@telly.org>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Then what took Hurd so long?
>   
The problem with Hurd's pace of development is not inherent in its design.

As everyone knows, the GNU project significantly predates the spat
between Torvalds and Tannenbaum. The difference in the speed of
development and popularity between Linux and Hurd (and arguably BSD too)
likely has more to do with community rather than technology.

While the FSF and its aims are well-supported, most of its support has
been passive rather than active. This is IMO because the GNU Project
(well, Stallman for sure) has never really grasped the community
development process that Eric Raymond tagged "the bazaar". I've always
maintained that Linus' talent at herding cats was always more important
to the growth of Linux than his talents as a coder. Smaller projects
that can be maintained by single people or small groups do fine under
the GNU umbrella, but their communities don't scale well. Hurd is just
one example; GNU Enterprise is another one that languishes.

The few GNU projects that have migrated to a broad community development
scheme (ie, gcc) needed a mutiny/fork in order to do so. Unfortunately,
for whatever reasons there's not enough interest in Hurd for such a
migration and revitalization to happen there. Yet.

- Evan
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 15:23:40 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:23:40 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605143647.GB30185-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
	<20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:36:47 -0400
Lennart Sorensen got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Simple.  You are using rsync over ssh NOT rsynd the daemon.  most people
> don't use the deamon, unless they are offering an rsync public server.

I get it, thanks!
 
> If you can ssh to the machine with the same user and ip, then rsync
> should work too.  Maybe turn on verbose on rsync and see if it says
> anything.

I tried with *3* v's, but all I could get was:

[joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -vvvrt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
opening connection using ssh 194.168.0.4 rsync --server -vvvtr . "~/backup/"
ssh: connect to host 194.168.0.4 port 22: Connection timed out
rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [sender]
rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(434)
_exit_cleanup(code=12, file=io.c, line=434): about to call exit(12)

One thing I notice is that it is using the --server option, I do not even see
that in the manpage :-\

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"We are going to have to go out of our minds before we can come to our senses."
-- Timothy Leary
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 15:26:33 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:26:33 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605152633.GB8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 11:23:40AM -0400, JoeHill wrote:
>[joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -vvvrt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
>opening connection using ssh 194.168.0.4 rsync --server -vvvtr . "~/backup/"
>ssh: connect to host 194.168.0.4 port 22: Connection timed out

There's your answer.  No connection to the remote host.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 3 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 15:30:45 2006
From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:30:45 -0400
Subject: AWStats-Bells and whistles
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP01E6966ECCFC4851E278A1AD940@CEZ.ICE>

I am looking for a web analysis tool.

I was thinking of using AWSTATS because it has a lot of cool bells and
whistles.

Anything else I should consider before going with AWSTATS?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 15:50:45 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:50:45 -0400
Subject: Latex help
In-Reply-To: <20060605124355.GA8809-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060605124355.GA8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605155045.GA16466@wp.magstar.net>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 08:43:55AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> I'm trying to draw a box around a group of paragraphs.  That works
> successfully but, the paragraphs inside the box, to not indent like
> those outside of the box:
> 
> \fbox{
>    \begin{minipage}{3.2in}
> 
>    This is paragraph one.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
> 
    \noindent 
>    This is paragraph two.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
> 
>    \end{minipage}
> }
> 
> This is a paragraph outside the box.  It indents correctly.
> 
> What have I missed?
> 
> -- 
> Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
> System Administrator    | Uptime 3 days
> http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 16:00:47 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:00:47 -0400
Subject: Latex help
In-Reply-To: <20060605155045.GA16466-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060605124355.GA8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060605155045.GA16466@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <20060605160047.GC8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 11:50:45AM -0400, William Park wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 08:43:55AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
>> I'm trying to draw a box around a group of paragraphs.  That works
>> successfully but, the paragraphs inside the box, to not indent like
>> those outside of the box:
>> 
>> \fbox{
>>    \begin{minipage}{3.2in}
>> 
>>    This is paragraph one.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>>    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
>> 
>    \noindent 
>>    This is paragraph two.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>>    dog.  XXX xxx xxxx xxx x x x xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx x xx x xxxxx.
>> 
>>    \end{minipage}
>> }
>> 
>> This is a paragraph outside the box.  It indents correctly.
>> 
>> What have I missed?

Actually, the "to not indent" is a typo.  It should be the paragraphs
inside the fbox do not indent.  I would like them to.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 3 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 16:19:40 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:19:40 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605152633.GB8809-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
	<20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605152633.GB8809@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605121940.540a65ae.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:26:33 -0400
Neil Watson got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> There's your answer.  No connection to the remote host.

Then why can I SSH into it?

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith
--
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From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 17:49:13 2006
From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:49:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on Linux?
Message-ID: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>

I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.

It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.

All tips and/or links will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Stephen

-- 
Stephen W. Clarke
Marketing and Communications Officer
Nray Services Inc.
33A King Street West
Dundas, ON L9H 1T5
CANADA

Tel: (905) 627-1302
Fax: (905) 627-5022
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 18:04:45 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:04:45 -0400
Subject: OT: MySQL mass updates
Message-ID: <20060605180445.GA12013@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

I have a database that needs updating, and I just wanted to see if
anyone has done something like this before.

Here's the problem - I have a constant string in one column that needs
to be updated to a different string, for all record.

In pseudocode, what I want to do is this:
  foreach row in table
    in column A, swap "something" with "somethingelse" leaving the rest
    of the column's content alone

I think that this could be done with a single, fairly simple command,
but I'd hate to screw up the whole database by getting it wrong.

Anyone have any suggestions?  Thanks.
-- 

yours,

William

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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 18:05:44 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:05:44 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605143647.GB30185-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
	<20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605140544.2767d048.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:36:47 -0400
Lennart Sorensen got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Simple.  You are using rsync over ssh NOT rsynd the daemon.  most people
> don't use the deamon, unless they are offering an rsync public server.

What if I used a different remote shell than SSH? It's just on a local net,
behind a firewall, so I'm not that concerned about security. I just don't know
what other remote shell I could use... :-\
 
> If you can ssh to the machine with the same user and ip, then rsync
> should work too.  Maybe turn on verbose on rsync and see if it says
> anything.

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The future is here. It's just not widely distributed yet." -- William Gibson
--
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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 18:15:53 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:15:53 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060604013812.5b24b96b.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060604013812.5b24b96b.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605141553.1a936f0d.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 01:38:12 -0400
JoeHill got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> [joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -rt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/

ROFLMAO! Now, I admit this is a *really stupid* mistake on my part, but I can't
believe none of *you* guys caught it, and I mean that in the nicest way. You
guys are geniuses, WTF? ;-)

Anyhow, see if you can spot what I was doing wrong, I'll give ya one more
chance ;-)

It's workin' fine now anyhow, thanks for all the responses and suggestions, and
I will *try* not to pull such boners in the future...

Cheers mates!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 18:18:17 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:18:17 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on
	Linux?
In-Reply-To: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel-u5iS8elThxsi7FR4L9eesA@public.gmane.org>
References: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>
Message-ID: <1149531497.1749.181.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 13:49 -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
> I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.
> 
> It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
> RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
> anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
> Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.
> 
> All tips and/or links will be appreciated.

Unless the RAID driver is in the kernel I don't bother using hardware
RAID (or driver RAID, as is the case with  most SATA RAID.) The problem
is maintenance. Most of the servers I take care of are not local and I
want them to come back up when I upgrade the kernel. The drivers for
SATA RAID are often proprietary or have to be compiled for each kernel
and placed into the initrd.

Since the cheap SATA raid is really software RAID (in the driver) I go
with the Linux software raid, which is more featureful. Every SATA RAID
card that I've seen can turn off the RAID feature.


-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 

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From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 19:00:34 2006
From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:00:34 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
Message-ID: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E5@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>

194 instead of 192?
Dave Bour
Desktop Solution Center
905.381.0077
dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca

For those who just want it to work...
Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 

(Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
PIN 3010A703 (as of May 23, 2006)  

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tlug at ss.org <owner-tlug at ss.org>
To: tlug at ss.org <tlug at ss.org>
Sent: Mon Jun 05 14:15:53 2006
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: rsync suddenly fails?

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 01:38:12 -0400
JoeHill got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> [joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -rt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/

ROFLMAO! Now, I admit this is a *really stupid* mistake on my part, but I can't
believe none of *you* guys caught it, and I mean that in the nicest way. You
guys are geniuses, WTF? ;-)

Anyhow, see if you can spot what I was doing wrong, I'll give ya one more
chance ;-)

It's workin' fine now anyhow, thanks for all the responses and suggestions, and
I will *try* not to pull such boners in the future...

Cheers mates!

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 16:07:11 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:07:11 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605160711.GD30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 11:23:40AM -0400, JoeHill wrote:
> I tried with *3* v's, but all I could get was:
> 
> [joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -vvvrt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
> opening connection using ssh 194.168.0.4 rsync --server -vvvtr . "~/backup/"
> ssh: connect to host 194.168.0.4 port 22: Connection timed out
> rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [sender]
> rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(434)
> _exit_cleanup(code=12, file=io.c, line=434): about to call exit(12)
> 
> One thing I notice is that it is using the --server option, I do not even see
> that in the manpage :-\

So if you do (as joehill): 'ssh 194.168.0.4:~/backup/' it works?

Perhaps you should try 192 instead of 194.

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 20:13:41 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:13:41 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605140544.2767d048.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060605140544.2767d048.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605201341.GE30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 02:05:44PM -0400, JoeHill wrote:
> What if I used a different remote shell than SSH? It's just on a local net,
> behind a firewall, so I'm not that concerned about security. I just don't know
> what other remote shell I could use... :-\

Well if you really wanted to you could use rsh, but you would have to
explicitly tell rsync to use that.  I wouldn't bother personally.  I
think it would be rsync -e rsh -otheroptions ...

Len Sorensen
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From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 20:28:58 2006
From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Tom Watts)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:28:58 -0400
Subject: OT: MySQL mass updates
In-Reply-To: <20060605180445.GA12013-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060605180445.GA12013@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4484940A.1040307@uoguelph.ca>



William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I have a database that needs updating, and I just wanted to see if
> anyone has done something like this before.
> 
> Here's the problem - I have a constant string in one column that needs
> to be updated to a different string, for all record.
> 
> In pseudocode, what I want to do is this:
>   foreach row in table
>     in column A, swap "something" with "somethingelse" leaving the rest
>     of the column's content alone
> 
> I think that this could be done with a single, fairly simple command,
> but I'd hate to screw up the whole database by getting it wrong.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?  Thanks.


Sounds like a fairly simple query.  If you're so concerned about messing 
up, could you just duplicate the database for testing purposes then run 
an update on the official database once you're satisfied?

Tom Watts
wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 20:32:08 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:32:08 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E5-Jbakdu7TueDXKbHvCO1Mttbx/7hll2mj@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E5@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
Message-ID: <20060605203208.GF30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 03:00:34PM -0400, Dave Bour wrote:
> 194 instead of 192?
> Dave Bour
> Desktop Solution Center
> 905.381.0077
> dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org
> 
> For those who just want it to work...
> Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 
> 
> (Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
> PIN 3010A703 (as of May 23, 2006)  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org <owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org>
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org <tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org>
> Sent: Mon Jun 05 14:15:53 2006
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: rsync suddenly fails?
> 
> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 01:38:12 -0400
> JoeHill got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
> 
> > [joehill at node1 ~]$ rsync -rt .config/ 194.168.0.4:~/backup/
> 
> ROFLMAO! Now, I admit this is a *really stupid* mistake on my part, but I can't
> believe none of *you* guys caught it, and I mean that in the nicest way. You
> guys are geniuses, WTF? ;-)
> 
> Anyhow, see if you can spot what I was doing wrong, I'll give ya one more
> chance ;-)
> 
> It's workin' fine now anyhow, thanks for all the responses and suggestions, and
> I will *try* not to pull such boners in the future...

I asked about 192 instead of 194 sometime this morning.  Maybe my email
is being slow.

Len Sorensen
--
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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 20:49:49 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:49:49 -0400
Subject: rsync suddenly fails?
In-Reply-To: <20060605160711.GD30185-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719E4@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
	<20060604221953.7e1f909c.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605143647.GB30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20060605112340.1f71bd24.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<20060605160711.GD30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060605164949.71dce643.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:07:11 -0400
Lennart Sorensen got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> So if you do (as joehill): 'ssh 194.168.0.4:~/backup/' it works?

No.
 
> Perhaps you should try 192 instead of 194.

Bingo! I feel like such a *tool*. That was the whole problem all along.

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the
poor have no food, they call you a communist." -- Archbishop Helder Camara
--
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  5 22:18:26 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:18:26 -0500
Subject: AWStats-Bells and whistles
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP01E6966ECCFC4851E278A1AD940-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP01E6966ECCFC4851E278A1AD940@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606051518t6d33b4bfi4904d5c4e141525b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/06, lfeder <lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> I am looking for a web analysis tool.

A supplement could be sales-n-stats [1] -- it has a free version
that's good for the site monitor[2].  It's been an interesting
experience so far:

[1] http://www.sales-n-stats.com/
[2] http://www.sales-n-stats.com/feature_tour/site_monitoring.html
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 01:42:56 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:42:56 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on Linux?
In-Reply-To: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel-u5iS8elThxsi7FR4L9eesA@public.gmane.org>
References: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>
Message-ID: <4484DDA0.2090603@utoronto.ca>

Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
> I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.
> 
> It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
> RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
> anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
> Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.
> 
> All tips and/or links will be appreciated.

Put the raid controller into plain IDE mode (if it has an option like 
that) and the use a softraid partitioning scheme when you install. Might 
have to fiddle with LVM a bit once you get the softraid setup properly.

Jamon

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From slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 09:25:15 2006
From: slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: 06 Jun 2006 11:25:15 +0200
Subject: confirm d4eb35a57903d9064fecece37c30e2c497161295
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1149583951.12936.hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.0.1149583951.12936.hw@gtalug.org>
Message-ID: <831wu2hc04.fsf@azurservers.com>

subscribe
-- 
Amicablement
Slackrat
(Bill Henderson)
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From slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 09:25:50 2006
From: slackrat-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: 06 Jun 2006 11:25:50 +0200
Subject: confirm 16c9a339370daa3fcf0dc3a553771266a26b8d69
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1149584078.12946.ms-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.0.1149584078.12946.ms@gtalug.org>
Message-ID: <83wtbufxep.fsf@azurservers.com>

subscribe
-- 
Amicablement
Slackrat
(Bill Henderson)
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 10:33:01 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 06:33:01 -0400
Subject: Lenovo denies ditching Linux
Message-ID: <448559DD.7040405@pppoe.ca>

Chinese computer supplier Lenovo has denied a report that it is planning 
to stop offering Linux on its range of PCs and laptops.

http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html*
*
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 13:41:31 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:41:31 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on Linux?
In-Reply-To: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel-u5iS8elThxsi7FR4L9eesA@public.gmane.org>
References: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>
Message-ID: <20060606134131.GA7858@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 01:49:13PM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
> I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.
> 
> It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
> RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
> anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
> Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.

Which kernel version does your install disk have?

In my experience (with in ICH5R) the bios had to be set to native sata
mode (the default was combined mode, which emulates ide for dos and
windows installer).

I believe the ICH7R if set to native mode should work with the AHCI
driver in newer 2.6 kernels (probably about 2.6.12 or higher if I
remember correctly).

The fakeraid will not work, unless your distribution does dmraid, and
even then I wouldn't recomend it.  Linux software raid as at least as
fast, and is portable between machines, and you can check the status
under linux.

Well looking around, whitebox el4 uses 2.6.9, which is too old for AHCI,
and too old for the ICH7R in general as far as I can tell.  You will
have to find an installer with a newer kernel with AHCI sata controller
support, and turn of the raid in the bios and make sure it's set to ahci
mode.

If you are lucky it might work in a compatibility mode if set to native
or something, if the sata_piix driver recognizes it as compatible with
older ich chips, although with a different PCI id, that isn't likely.

Len Sorensen
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 13:44:34 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:44:34 -0400
Subject: Lenovo denies ditching Linux
In-Reply-To: <448559DD.7040405-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <448559DD.7040405@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <448586C2.7010100@rogers.com>

Meng Cheah wrote:
> Chinese computer supplier Lenovo has denied a report that it is planning 
> to stop offering Linux on its range of PCs and laptops.
> 
> http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html*
> *


Well, if they deny it, it must be true!  ;-)

BTW, it helps if you post the correct URL.

<http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html>
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 13:52:15 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:52:15 -0400
Subject: Lenovo denies ditching Linux
In-Reply-To: <448586C2.7010100-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <448559DD.7040405@pppoe.ca> <448586C2.7010100@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4485888F.3020304@pppoe.ca>

James Knott wrote:

> Meng Cheah wrote:
>
>> Chinese computer supplier Lenovo has denied a report that it is 
>> planning to stop offering Linux on its range of PCs and laptops.
>>
>> http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html* 
>>
>> *
>
>
>
> Well, if they deny it, it must be true!  ;-)
>
> BTW, it helps if you post the correct URL.
>
> <http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html

Sorry, shoddy cut and paste job :-)
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 14:02:06 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:02:06 -0400
Subject: Anyone had xlock acting up?
Message-ID: <44858ADE.6060207@pppoe.ca>

I've just started to use xlock (xlockmore package on Debian Sarge).

It occurred to me what if it messed up?
How do I recover?

Has anyone had this experience or any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Meng Cheah
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 14:19:32 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:19:32 -0400
Subject: User groups or mailing list for Openview
Message-ID: <20060606141932.GB27683@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

Does anyone know of any active user groups or mailing list for HP
Openview?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 4 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 14:24:06 2006
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:24:06 -0400
Subject: OT: MySQL mass updates
In-Reply-To: <20060605180445.GA12013-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060605180445.GA12013@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <f9870c010606060724m42070035xe2965110c7f983fd@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/06, William O'Higgins Witteman <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> I have a database that needs updating, and I just wanted to see if
> anyone has done something like this before.
>
> Here's the problem - I have a constant string in one column that needs
> to be updated to a different string, for all record.
>
> In pseudocode, what I want to do is this:
>   foreach row in table
>     in column A, swap "something" with "somethingelse" leaving the rest
>     of the column's content alone
>
> I think that this could be done with a single, fairly simple command,
> but I'd hate to screw up the whole database by getting it wrong.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?  Thanks.


To simply update a column for an entire table,

  UPDATE table SET column = someTransformation(column);

Since there's no WHERE clause, this operates over the entire table.

If the transformation is more complicated, you may need to write a short
Perl script to do the same thing .. the advantage to that is you can do the
transformation and check that it works first, without actually updating the
database.


Now in terms of being able to go back in case you got it wrong, there are a
number of options.

1. Backup the table first, and restore it if things go wrong;
2. Create another column, and copy the original column to the new column,
and mess with the new column;
3. In Postgres, I would bracket my attempts with BEGIN WORK and COMMIT (if
it worked) or ROLLBACK (if not). I'm not as aware of whether that's offered
in MySQL yet, and which version of MySQL you have.


Finally, make sure your test ("Did it work?') is ironclad -- you don't want
to make the change then discover it's wrong for male students born in
Saskatchewan. Or something. Good luck.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 15:50:53 2006
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:50:53 -0400
Subject: Lenovo denies ditching Linux
In-Reply-To: <448586C2.7010100-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <448559DD.7040405@pppoe.ca> <448586C2.7010100@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP03A772400DBCE824E2E596EA950@CEZ.ICE>

James Knott wrote:
> Meng Cheah wrote:
>> Chinese computer supplier Lenovo has denied a report that it is 
>> planning to stop offering Linux on its range of PCs and laptops.
> Well, if they deny it, it must be true!  ;-)
> BTW, it helps if you post the correct URL.
> <http://news.com.com/Lenovo+denies+ditching+Linux/2100-1003_3-6080115.html>

So Lenovo will happily install Linux on your ThinkPad, only 
you have to get a licence for Linux, first.  Amusing.

         Mel.

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From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 17:22:34 2006
From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:22:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on 
     Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20060606134131.GA7858-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>
    <20060606134131.GA7858@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <18118.72.38.22.170.1149614554.squirrel@72.38.22.170>

Thank you all for your comments.

Len. You are correct the kernel in WBEL4 is 2.6.9.

I'm thinking I'll likely try installing Fedora Core 5 which uses 2.6.16 so
I can keep the "Red Hat" style. I'm running CentOS on my PBX but it's also
using 2.6.9.

Thanks again for the advise.

Stephen


> On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 01:49:13PM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
>> I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.
>>
>> It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
>> RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
>> anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
>> Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.
>
> Which kernel version does your install disk have?
>
> In my experience (with in ICH5R) the bios had to be set to native sata
> mode (the default was combined mode, which emulates ide for dos and
> windows installer).
>
> I believe the ICH7R if set to native mode should work with the AHCI
> driver in newer 2.6 kernels (probably about 2.6.12 or higher if I
> remember correctly).
>
> The fakeraid will not work, unless your distribution does dmraid, and
> even then I wouldn't recomend it.  Linux software raid as at least as
> fast, and is portable between machines, and you can check the status
> under linux.
>
> Well looking around, whitebox el4 uses 2.6.9, which is too old for AHCI,
> and too old for the ICH7R in general as far as I can tell.  You will
> have to find an installer with a newer kernel with AHCI sata controller
> support, and turn of the raid in the bios and make sure it's set to ahci
> mode.
>
> If you are lucky it might work in a compatibility mode if set to native
> or something, if the sata_piix driver recognizes it as compatible with
> older ich chips, although with a different PCI id, that isn't likely.
>
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>


-- 
Stephen W. Clarke
Marketing and Communications Officer
Nray Services Inc.
33A King Street West
Dundas, ON L9H 1T5
CANADA

Tel: (905) 627-1302
Fax: (905) 627-5022
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From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 17:33:03 2006
From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:33:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is it possible to run the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID on 
     Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20060606134131.GA7858-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <56097.72.38.22.170.1149529753.squirrel@72.38.22.170>
    <20060606134131.GA7858@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <18166.72.38.22.170.1149615183.squirrel@72.38.22.170>

Thank you all for your comments.

Len. You are correct the kernel in WBEL4 is 2.6.9.

I'm thinking I'll likely try installing Fedora Core 5 which uses 2.6.16 so
I can keep the "Red Hat" style. I'm running CentOS on my PBX but it's also
using 2.6.9.

Thanks again for the advise.

Stephen


> On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 01:49:13PM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
>> I'm trying to install Whitebox EL4 on a brand new server we just got.
>>
>> It came with the Intel ICH7R SATA RAID. (I'm pretty sure its a software
>> RAID and is designed to work only with Windows.) My question is, does
>> anyone out there know how I can go about making it work with Linux. My
>> Linux install disk does recognize the HDD even with the RAID turned off.
>
> Which kernel version does your install disk have?
>
> In my experience (with in ICH5R) the bios had to be set to native sata
> mode (the default was combined mode, which emulates ide for dos and
> windows installer).
>
> I believe the ICH7R if set to native mode should work with the AHCI
> driver in newer 2.6 kernels (probably about 2.6.12 or higher if I
> remember correctly).
>
> The fakeraid will not work, unless your distribution does dmraid, and
> even then I wouldn't recomend it.  Linux software raid as at least as
> fast, and is portable between machines, and you can check the status
> under linux.
>
> Well looking around, whitebox el4 uses 2.6.9, which is too old for AHCI,
> and too old for the ICH7R in general as far as I can tell.  You will
> have to find an installer with a newer kernel with AHCI sata controller
> support, and turn of the raid in the bios and make sure it's set to ahci
> mode.
>
> If you are lucky it might work in a compatibility mode if set to native
> or something, if the sata_piix driver recognizes it as compatible with
> older ich chips, although with a different PCI id, that isn't likely.
>
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>


-- 
Stephen W. Clarke
Marketing and Communications Officer
Nray Services Inc.
33A King Street West
Dundas, ON L9H 1T5
CANADA

Tel: (905) 627-1302
Fax: (905) 627-5022
--
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 18:35:45 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:35:45 -0400
Subject: Anyone had xlock acting up?
In-Reply-To: <44858ADE.6060207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44858ADE.6060207@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606061135n1f3e98acj8b7c1b5615adb00b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/06, Meng Cheah <meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I've just started to use xlock (xlockmore package on Debian Sarge).
>
> It occurred to me what if it messed up?
> How do I recover?
>
> Has anyone had this experience or any suggestions?

I've used both xlockmore and xscreensaver extensively.  The only
problem I've ever encountered is that one, I think xlockmore, didn't
deal too well with a dual screen setup about a year and a half ago so
I went with xscreensaver.  It didn't crash or anything, it just ran on
one screen only or some such.

If you have issues, you can always hit CTRL-ALT-F1 to get to a virtual
console and log in to kill the screensaver process.  I've done that
too - not out of need, just to test.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 20:21:32 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 16:21:32 -0400
Subject: Anyone had xlock acting up?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606061135n1f3e98acj8b7c1b5615adb00b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44858ADE.6060207@pppoe.ca> <1f13df280606061135n1f3e98acj8b7c1b5615adb00b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4485E3CC.7060001@pppoe.ca>

Giles Orr wrote:

> I've used both xlockmore and xscreensaver extensively.  The only
> problem I've ever encountered is that one, I think xlockmore, didn't
> deal too well with a dual screen setup about a year and a half ago so
> I went with xscreensaver.  It didn't crash or anything, it just ran on
> one screen only or some such.
>
> If you have issues, you can always hit CTRL-ALT-F1 to get to a virtual
> console and log in to kill the screensaver process.  I've done that
> too - not out of need, just to test.
>
Thank you.

CTRL-ALT-F2 works fine for me.
Tried CTRL-ALT-F1 and could not get to a prompt.

Thanks Giles.

Meng Cheah

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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 20:53:35 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Tue,  6 Jun 2006 16:53:35 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
Message-ID: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Does anyone have any experience with external cases
(USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?

I'd appreciate pointers to any brands that have worked
for you.

On another note, can anyone recommend a bootable Linux CD
(Live CD or some such) that will work on quite an old
machine (128 MB RAM) and has NTFS support?
--
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 21:11:14 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 00:11:14 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Anyone had xlock acting up?
In-Reply-To: <44858ADE.6060207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44858ADE.6060207@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <rduf.qt.ikmcsu@mbaaa.ij.jyyji>


On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Meng Cheah wrote:

> I've just started to use xlock (xlockmore package on Debian Sarge).
>
> It occurred to me what if it messed up?
> How do I recover?
>
> Has anyone had this experience or any suggestions?

What is 'messed up' ? xlockmore has about a hundred options, you need to 
get them right. I use it all the time (same config for about three years 
now) and I have no problems.

Depending on your X server settings you can 'zap' is using 
Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, or switch to a text terminal (Ctrl-Alt-Fx), and you 
can have several X sessions open on the same machine, and each locked by 
its xlockmore.

Peter
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 21:19:16 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:19:16 -0400
Subject: Anyone had xlock acting up?
In-Reply-To: <rduf.qt.ikmcsu-2UoUHMI14ECk1TzAnPAFpw@public.gmane.org>
References: <44858ADE.6060207@pppoe.ca> <rduf.qt.ikmcsu@mbaaa.ij.jyyji>
Message-ID: <4485F154.5020300@pppoe.ca>

Peter wrote:

>
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Meng Cheah wrote:
>
>> I've just started to use xlock (xlockmore package on Debian Sarge).
>>
>> It occurred to me what if it messed up?
>> How do I recover?
>>
>> Has anyone had this experience or any suggestions?
>
>
> What is 'messed up' ? xlockmore has about a hundred options, you need 
> to get them right. I use it all the time (same config for about three 
> years now) and I have no problems.
>
> Depending on your X server settings you can 'zap' is using 
> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, or switch to a text terminal (Ctrl-Alt-Fx), and 
> you can have several X sessions open on the same machine, and each 
> locked by its xlockmore.
>
> Peter

Thanks, Peter.

Just thinking ahead, what if?
Wanted some solutions/suggestions from experienced users.

It's working fine, I've got it using screensavers and in "- mode blank".

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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 21:30:36 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:30:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061726020.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I

I've used many Firewire or Firewire/USB enclosures and added my own HDDs 
over the years.

> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?

If the drive adheres to one of the ATA standards it should be fine.  Dell 
(like just about everyone else) just uses drives from one of the small 
number of drive manufacturers.  Therefore I'd say it should work fine.

> I'd appreciate pointers to any brands that have worked
> for you.

I've used a number of different brands.  Lately I've been using the Lantec 
NexStar 2 as it has Firewire & USB and (unlike some of the alternatives) 
is very quick to get a drive installed.

> On another note, can anyone recommend a bootable Linux CD
> (Live CD or some such) that will work on quite an old
> machine (128 MB RAM) and has NTFS support?

Knoppix 3.9 has read-write NTFS support.  Even much older versions had 
read-only support.  128MB will be fine to boot Knoppix.  If you are 
comfortable with the command line you may wish to boot with "knoppix 2" to 
come up without X.  This makes the boot much faster.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 21:55:51 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:55:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <20060605142335.GA30185-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca> <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060605142335.GA30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061731540.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> Then what took Hurd so long?

Disagreements, lack of direction, general human related problems that can 
derail even the best project.

>> Sure.  Because a lot of hard work has gone into it.  I am emphasising that
>> it is simply easier to make a microkernel system stable.
>
> Well other than QNX, I am still waiting to see a successful microkernel
> system that gets used.

OS-9 (not Mac OS9 but Microware OS-9)

> Well the unix user space is excelent.  Little tools (modular design
> after all) that do one thing well, working together is great.  Of course

That's part of the conceptual side which many OSes have taken on board (as 
per my earlier posts).

There is cruft in *nix userspace.  Why exactly is the command to send a 
signal to a process called "kill"? The name is historical but is defined 
in POSIX now.  This one was highlighted to me just recently when I was 
providing training on the shell and command line tools.

> there is no reason a microkernel based system couldn't use the same user
> space, and work great.

Yes, very true.  In fact I fully expect the popular MK (microkernel) 
systems of the coming decades to fully support a Linux 
look-alike environment among others.

I've alluded to this a bit in earlier posts:

My view of future OSes is MK based systems with low level services 
(functions we'd now have in a monolithic kernel) running in userspace and 
the ability to simulataneously abstract a large number of environments 
cleanly and have them talk.  What we today call virtualisation would only 
be a subset of the abstraction I'm talking about.

In an MK (in general) you lose in performance but you gain in stability 
and flexibility.  Experiments in the area show the performance loss is 
usually no more than 10% for an MK.  A well designed MK like recent 
versions of the L4 family can actually perform better than a monolithic 
kernel in some cases.

> If I was to accidentally byte swap some data in one module (say it's a
> module that does caching) before sending it to the filesystem module,
> there is nothing the filesystem module can do to save me.  Bugs are
> bugs, and they will hurt data in some cases.

If the caching module passes bad data, yes that could cause corruption. 
It also has nothing to do with my original assertion...

This part of the discussion arose when I pointed out that tampering in one 
part of a monolithic kernel broke another part.  I was (and still am) 
talking about code changes, not corrupt data.

No amount of tampering in one module will corrupt code in another module 
of a well designed MK system.  As they only communicate through a well 
defined protocol there remains integrity in the commands exchanged between 
the modules.  For example a buffer-cache module could only ask the 
filesystem module to do specific actions (flush block X to disk now, 
whatever).  The language the modules speak can be arbitrarily constrained.

A well defined MK system would probably even put constraints on how 
rapidly messages could be sent over the protocol to prevent an internal 
DoS.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun  6 22:08:44 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:08:44 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?

I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.  It 
works well.
>
> I'd appreciate pointers to any brands that have worked
> for you.
>
> On another note, can anyone recommend a bootable Linux CD
> (Live CD or some such) that will work on quite an old
> machine (128 MB RAM) and has NTFS support? 

You might try a Linux Rescue CD.  I also used one of those, to copy data 
from a crashed XP system.

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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 04:59:29 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed,  7 Jun 2006 00:59:29 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061726020.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061726020.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <20060607005929.sn4eh52fq8gkws8w@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org>:


>> I'd appreciate pointers to any brands that have worked
>> for you.
>
> I've used a number of different brands.  Lately I've been using the 
> Lantec NexStar 2 as it has Firewire & USB and (unlike some of the 
> alternatives) is very quick to get a drive installed.

Thanks.  Are these back-compatible with USB 1.1 ?

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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 05:11:04 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed,  7 Jun 2006 01:11:04 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <4485FCEC.9040801-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>:

> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
>> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
>> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
>> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
>> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?
>
> I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.  It 
> works well.

Thanks.  What's "Factory Direct"?  A search brings up unrelated
stuff; Adaptec themselves want fifty bucks for the case.

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From brandon-77Z/iqU1yLlrovVCs/uTlw at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 05:25:29 2006
From: brandon-77Z/iqU1yLlrovVCs/uTlw at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 01:25:29 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca> <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com> <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <EE48E7A3-C9B5-4763-81D9-39800D6F42A1@tri-coder.org>

I think he means www.factorydirect.ca.

On the topic of external enclosures, anyone know of an enclosure that  
supports SATA drives and does Firewire.  The only one I've found is  
on TigerDirect.ca, but is rather expensive due to support for  
everything (it supports IDE and SATA drives, and allows eSATA,  
FireWire and USB2.0 connections).


On Jun 7, 2006, at 1:11 AM, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:

> Quoting James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>:
>
>> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
>>> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
>>> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
>>> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
>>> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?
>>
>> I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.   
>> It works well.
>
> Thanks.  What's "Factory Direct"?  A search brings up unrelated
> stuff; Adaptec themselves want fifty bucks for the case.
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 11:04:04 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 07:04:04 -0400
Subject: Help, I need a working boa.conf file
Message-ID: <20060607110404.GA15124@waltdnes.org>

  This *SHOULD* be simple, but the manpage is rather sparse, and it also
seems to assume that I'm intimately familiar with NCSA-httpd, whose
directives boa.conf is modelled after.  After a couple of fruitless days
of banging head against brick wall, I'm swallowing my pride, and asking
for a working config.  I need...

  a) a working boa.conf file

  b) where do I put it

  c) what commandline ("-c" and/or "-r") parameters to pass to the
invocation of boa.

  I want to run boa on port 1024, and serve out /usr/portage/distfiles/
to another machine at home (*PLEASE* don't bother with httpd-replicator
as there are other issues).  Here's what I have so far...

Port 1024
Listen 192.168.123.252
User nobody
Group nogroup
DocumentRoot /usr/portage/distfiles
MimeTypes /dev/null
DirectoryMaker /usr/lib/boa/boa_indexer

  The client machine does connect to the server on port 1024, but gets a
404 error for the file it's trying to download.  I've manually confirmed
that the requested file exists.  I temporarily disconnected the ADSL
modem from the LAN, and shut down iptables, to remove the possibility of
blockage there.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 12:55:50 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:55:50 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>	<4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com> <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <4486CCD6.60208@rogers.com>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Quoting James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>:
> 
>> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
>>> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
>>> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
>>> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
>>> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?
>>
>> I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.  It 
>> works well.
> 
> Thanks.  What's "Factory Direct"?  A search brings up unrelated
> stuff; Adaptec themselves want fifty bucks for the case.

<http://www.factorydirect.ca/static/index.htm>

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun  7 13:26:46 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:26:46 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <20060607132646.GB7858@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 04:53:35PM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?

Well any USB external drive case for IDE should work.  A 4GB drive may
be old, but it is newer than than 540MB, and 2GB issues, so it should be
perfectly compliant with IDE standards.  Even Dell did not use non
standard hard disks.  Motherboards, power supplies, video cards, sound
cards, network cards, etc they mess with.  But the drives they seem to
have left alone.

> I'd appreciate pointers to any brands that have worked
> for you.
> 
> On another note, can anyone recommend a bootable Linux CD
> (Live CD or some such) that will work on quite an old
> machine (128 MB RAM) and has NTFS support?

No idea about NTFS.  Ram shouldn't be a problem for most linux
distributions.

Len Sorensen
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 02:03:19 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:03:19 -0400
Subject: Help, I need a working boa.conf file
In-Reply-To: <20060607110404.GA15124-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060607110404.GA15124@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <44878567.5060200@alteeve.com>

Walter Dnes wrote:
>   This *SHOULD* be simple, but the manpage is rather sparse, and it also
> seems to assume that I'm intimately familiar with NCSA-httpd, whose
> directives boa.conf is modelled after.  After a couple of fruitless days
> of banging head against brick wall, I'm swallowing my pride, and asking
> for a working config.  I need...
> 
>   a) a working boa.conf file
> 
>   b) where do I put it
> 
>   c) what commandline ("-c" and/or "-r") parameters to pass to the
> invocation of boa.
> 
>   I want to run boa on port 1024, and serve out /usr/portage/distfiles/
> to another machine at home (*PLEASE* don't bother with httpd-replicator
> as there are other issues).  Here's what I have so far...
> 
> Port 1024
> Listen 192.168.123.252
> User nobody
> Group nogroup
> DocumentRoot /usr/portage/distfiles
> MimeTypes /dev/null
> DirectoryMaker /usr/lib/boa/boa_indexer
> 
>   The client machine does connect to the server on port 1024, but gets a
> 404 error for the file it's trying to download.  I've manually confirmed
> that the requested file exists.  I temporarily disconnected the ADSL
> modem from the LAN, and shut down iptables, to remove the possibility of
> blockage there.
> 

Sorry for not cleaning out the clutter, but I just finished a 17 hour 
day... This is my (relevant) stuff for TLE-BU which uses a very slightly 
modified Boa web server. You should be able to dig out the relevant 
stuff but if not ask me and I will give you a cleaner version tomorrow 
or Friday.

I added a bunch of comments in the 'tb_httpd.conf' (boa.conf) file which 
should help (I hope).

Madison

Files:

My init.d script which starts/stops Boa (called tb_httpd in my program):

-= TLE-BU (Boa + (TLE-BU daemon <- ignore)) start script =-
#!/bin/sh
#
#               Written by Miquel van Smoorenburg <miquels-+QrN+Ec1w2rz+pZb47iToQ at public.gmane.org>.
#               Modified for Debian GNU/Linux
#               by Ian Murdock <imurdock-uOfJb789lUI8qNwGfFDJ/Q at public.gmane.org>.
#               Modified for boa by Bill Allombert <ballombe-8fiUuRrzOP0dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org>.
#
# Modified by Madison Kelly (digimer-agcygxvf9jodnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org) for use in TLE-BU
#

PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin
SERVER=/usr/share/tle-bu/httpd/tb_httpd
DAEMON=/usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/tbd
D_PID=/usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/tmp/tbd.pid
NAME=tb_httpd
DESC="TLE-BU"

test -x $SERVER || exit 0
test -x $DAEMON || exit 0

set -e

case "$1" in
   start)
         echo -n "Starting $DESC:"
         start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --exec $SERVER -- -f 
/etc/tb_httpd.conf -c /usr/share/tle-bu/httpd/
         echo -n " webserver,"
         start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --exec $DAEMON
         echo -n " daemon,"
         echo " done."
         ;;
   stop)
         echo -n "Stopping $DESC:"
         start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo --exec $SERVER
         echo -n " webserver,"
         start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo -p $D_PID
         echo -n " daemon,"
         echo " done."
         ;;
   restart)
         $0 stop
         sleep 1
         $0 start
         ;;
   *)
         N=/etc/init.d/$NAME
         echo "Usage: $N {start|stop|restart}" >&2
         exit 1
         ;;
esac

exit 0
-= TLE-BU (Boa + (TLE-BU daemon <- ignore)) start script =-


-= /etc/tb_httpd.conf (change to 'boa.conf' if you wish) =-
#
# This is the configuration file for the internal webserver used by 
'TLE-BU'.
# It must be in the '/etc' directory and it must be readable by the user 
defined
# in this file. This is a modified version of the 'Boa' web server. The 
rest of
# this config file is a near-exact copy of the default 'boa.conf' file 
save for
# the values used.
#
# Boa v0.94 configuration file
# Modified for TLE-BU, probably no longer compatible with normal Boa 
installs.
#
# The Boa configuration file is parsed with a custom parser.  If it
# reports an error, the line number will be provided; it should be easy
# to spot.  The syntax of each of these rules is very simple, and they
# can occur in any order.  Where possible these directives mimic those
# of NCSA httpd 1.3; I saw no reason to introduce gratuitous
# differences.

# $Id: tb_httpd.conf,v 1.3.2.6 2003/02/02 05:02:22 jnelson Exp $
# Port: The port Boa runs on.  The default port for http servers is 80.
# If it is less than 1024, the server must be started as root.
#Port 853
Port 853

# Listen: the Internet address to bind(2) to.  If you leave it out,
# it takes the behavior before 0.93.17.2, which is to bind to all
# addresses (INADDR_ANY).  You only get one "Listen" directive,
# if you want service on multiple IP addresses, you have three choices:
#    1. Run boa without a "Listen" directive
#       a. All addresses are treated the same; makes sense if the addresses
#          are localhost, ppp, and eth0.
#       b. Use the VirtualHost directive below to point requests to 
different
#          files.  Should be good for a very large number of addresses (web
#          hosting clients).
#    2. Run one copy of boa per IP address, each has its own configuration
#       with a "Listen" directive.  No big deal up to a few tens of 
addresses.
#       Nice separation between clients.
# The name you provide gets run through inet_aton(3), so you have to use 
dotted
# quad notation.  This configuration is too important to trust some DNS.
#Listen 127.0.0.1
Listen 127.0.0.1

#  User: The name or UID the server should run as.
# Group: The group name or GID the server should run as.
#User tle-bu
#Group tle-bu
User tle-bu
Group tle-bu

# ServerAdmin: The email address where server problems should be sent.
# Note: this is not currently used, except as an environment variable
# for CGIs.
#ServerAdmin root at localhost
ServerAdmin root at localhost

# ErrorLog: The location of the error log file. If this does not start
# with /, it is considered relative to the server root.
# Set to /dev/null if you don't want errors logged.
# If unset, defaults to /dev/stderr
# Please NOTE: Sending the logs to a pipe ('|'), as shown below,
#  is somewhat experimental and might fail under heavy load.
# "Usual libc implementations of printf will stall the whole
#  process if the receiving end of a pipe stops reading."
#ErrorLog "|/usr/sbin/cronolog --symlink=/var/log/boa/error_log 
/var/log/boa/error-%Y%m%d.log"
#ErrorLog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-error.log
ErrorLog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-error.log

# AccessLog: The location of the access log file. If this does not
# start with /, it is considered relative to the server root.
# Comment out or set to /dev/null (less effective) to disable.
# Useful to set to /dev/stdout for use with daemontools.
# Access logging.
# Please NOTE: Sending the logs to a pipe ('|'), as shown below,
#  is somewhat experimental and might fail under heavy load.
# "Usual libc implementations of printf will stall the whole
#  process if the receiving end of a pipe stops reading."
#AccessLog  "|/usr/sbin/cronolog --symlink=/var/log/boa/access_log 
/var/log/boa/access-%Y%m%d.log"
#AccessLog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-access.log
AccessLog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-access.log

# CGILog: The location of the CGI stderr log file. If this does not
# start with /, it is considered relative to the server root.
# The log file would contain any contents send to /dev/stderr
# by the CGI. If this is commented out, it defaults to whatever
# ErrorLog points.  Set to /dev/null to disable CGI stderr logging.
# Please NOTE: Sending the logs to a pipe ('|'), as shown below,
#  is somewhat experimental and might fail under heavy load.
# "Usual libc implementations of printf will stall the whole
#  process if the receiving end of a pipe stops reading."
#CGILog  "|/usr/sbin/cronolog --symlink=/var/log/boa/cgi_log 
/var/log/boa/cgi-%Y%m%d.log"
#CGILog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-cgi.log
CGILog /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/logs/tb_httpd-cgi.log

# UseLocaltime: Logical switch.  Uncomment to use localtime
# instead of UTC time
UseLocaltime

# ServerName: the name of this server that should be sent back to
# clients if different than that returned by gethostname + gethostbyname
#ServerName www.domain.com

# ScriptAlias: Maps a virtual path to a directory for serving scripts
# Example: ScriptAlias /htbin/ /www/htbin/
#ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/
ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /usr/share/tle-bu/cgi-bin/

# DocumentRoot: The root directory of the HTML documents.
# Comment out to disable server non user files.
#DocumentRoot /usr/share/tle-bu/non-cgi
DocumentRoot /usr/share/tle-bu/non-cgi

# DirectoryIndex: Name of the file to use as a pre-written HTML
# directory index.  Please MAKE AND USE THESE FILES.  On the
# fly creation of directory indexes can be _slow_.
# Comment out to always use DirectoryMaker
#DirectoryIndex index.html
DirectoryIndex index.html

# KeepAliveMax: Number of KeepAlive requests to allow per connection
# Comment out, or set to 0 to disable keepalive processing

#KeepAliveMax 1000
KeepAliveMax 1000

# KeepAliveTimeout: seconds to wait before keepalive connection times out
#KeepAliveTimeout 1200
KeepAliveTimeout 1200

# MimeTypes: This is the file that is used to generate mime type pairs
# and Content-Type fields for boa.
# Set to /dev/null if you do not want to load a mime types file.
# Do *not* comment out (better use AddType!)
#MimeTypes /etc/mime.types
MimeTypes /etc/mime.types

# DefaultType: MIME type used if the file extension is unknown, or there
# is no file extension.
#DefaultType text/plain
DefaultType text/plain

# CGIPath: The value of the $PATH environment variable given to CGI progs.
#CGIPath /bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin
CGIPath /bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin
-= /etc/tb_httpd.conf (change to 'boa.conf' if you wish) =-


Compile call (note that '$install_dir/httpd' is where the boa binary 
goes, change to suit your needs). I move the 'boa' binary to another 
directory to a new name 'tb_httpd'. Update anything above to reflect the 
name you use ('boa', I assume).

./configure --prefix=$install_dir/httpd --exec-prefix=$install_dir/httpd
make
mv src/boa $install_dir/httpd/tb_httpd


HTH!
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 09:54:41 2006
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 12:54:41 +0300
Subject: Apache help
Message-ID: <b8f780870606080254i5245f215xcae20e8cbb9be669@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
 One can set up apache in two ways, default (for lack of a more precise
name) and as virtual host (IP based and dns based). i have set up apache
using the later method. However, if apache encounter a situation which is
not configured on the virtual host section, it fall back to the default
(main) section.
 I would like to disable this behaviour. In short, I would like apache not
to consider any configuration under the main section whatever happen. What
can one change on the configuration file to be certain only the virtual host
section is ever considered?
 Finally, thanks for the help on host command in the previous mail. It
turned out that my resolv.conf file pointed to a nonexistent name server as
Astrand had suggested

William
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 10:18:52 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:18:52 -0400
Subject: Help, I need a working boa.conf file
In-Reply-To: <44878567.5060200-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060607110404.GA15124@waltdnes.org> <44878567.5060200@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20060608101852.GA17923@waltdnes.org>

On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 10:03:19PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote

> Sorry for not cleaning out the clutter, but I just finished a 17 hour 
> day... This is my (relevant) stuff for TLE-BU which uses a very slightly 
> modified Boa web server. You should be able to dig out the relevant 
> stuff but if not ask me and I will give you a cleaner version tomorrow 
> or Friday.
> 
> I added a bunch of comments in the 'tb_httpd.conf' (boa.conf) file which 
> should help (I hope).

  Thank you very much for your help.

  There's a /etc/init.d/boa script installed as part of the boa ebuild
in Gentoo.  But it doesn't handle multiple instances of boa.  I'm
willing to allow my backup machine to look at /usr/portage/distfiles,
but if I ever run a public webserver, I'll want a different config, on
a different port.

  Your commented boa.conf got me connected via links and w3m to the
"server" machine which allowed me to do the final debugging.  This is
part of trying to be "kinder and gentler" to the Gentoo mirrors by
attempting to use my main machine as the "Gentoo mirror" for my backup
machine.

  The final adjustment was "Alias".  Gentoo's emerge command always
looks in the "distfiles" folder  below whatever URL it's given for a
mirror.  E.g. if I specify "http://www.bad.example.com" as the mirror 
to use, it'll look in "http://www.bad.example.com/distfiles".  The
secondary machine's /etc/make.conf has the line...

GENTOO_MIRRORS="http://192.168.123.252:1024 ftp://ftp.ndlug.nd.edu/pub/gentoo/ http://mirror.datapipe.net/gentoo"

so it'll try my main machine (192.168.123.252 on port 1024) first.  I
invoke the portage server dedicated boa with the command...
boa -c /root/.boa/portage/
which implies that the config file to use is /root/.boa/portage/boa.conf

My /root/.boa/portage/boa.conf currently looks like so...

Port 1024
Listen 192.168.123.252
User nobody
Group nogroup
ErrorLog /var/log/boa/portage/error_log
AccessLog /var/log/boa/portage/access_log
DocumentRoot /usr/portage/distfiles/
UseLocaltime
DirectoryMaker /usr/lib/boa/boa_indexer
KeepAliveMax 1000
KeepAliveTimeout 10
MimeTypes /etc/boa/mime.types
DefaultType text/plain
Alias /distfiles /usr/portage/distfiles

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 12:21:27 2006
From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:21:27 -0400
Subject: Apache help
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870606080254i5245f215xcae20e8cbb9be669-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870606080254i5245f215xcae20e8cbb9be669@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4386c5b20606080521l345f51d1l9d9bb9713041252a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,
Not sure which version of Apache you're using, but I've found this
document very helpful in setting up vhosts:

>From http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/vhosts/examples.html#default

Setup 1: Catching every request to any unspecified IP address and
port, i.e., an address/port combination that is not used for any other
virtual host.
Server configuration:

    ...
    <VirtualHost _default_:*>
    DocumentRoot /www/default
    ...
    </VirtualHost>

Using such a default vhost with a wildcard port effectively prevents
any request going to the main server.

Cheers,
Aaron.


On 6/8/06, Kihara Muriithi <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi
>   One can set up apache in two ways, default (for lack of a more precise
> name) and as virtual host (IP based and dns based). i have set up apache
> using the later method. However, if apache encounter a situation which is
> not configured on the virtual host section, it fall back to the default
> (main) section.
>   I would like to disable this behaviour. In short, I would like apache not
> to consider any configuration under the main section whatever happen. What
> can one change on the configuration file to be certain only the virtual host
> section is ever considered?
>   Finally, thanks for the help on host command in the previous mail. It
> turned out that my resolv.conf file pointed to a nonexistent name server as
> Astrand had suggested
>
>  William
>
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 12:32:25 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:32:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060607005929.sn4eh52fq8gkws8w-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061726020.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <20060607005929.sn4eh52fq8gkws8w@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606080827310.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:

> Thanks.  Are these back-compatible with USB 1.1 ?

Yes, that should not be an issue.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 14:31:42 2006
From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: MySQL mass updates
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010606060724m42070035xe2965110c7f983fd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f9870c010606060724m42070035xe2965110c7f983fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060608143142.90021.qmail@web61316.mail.yahoo.com>

You can do it with 

UPDATE <table_name> SET <column> =
REPLACE(<column>,<something>,<somethingelse>)

You can also bracket it with START TRANSACTION and
COMMIT (or ROLLBACK as the case may be). But I would
still do some sort of backup for eventuality.

Hope that helps :-)

EK

--- Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On 6/5/06, William O'Higgins Witteman
> <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> > I have a database that needs updating, and I just
> wanted to see if
> > anyone has done something like this before.
> >
> > Here's the problem - I have a constant string in
> one column that needs
> > to be updated to a different string, for all
> record.
> >
> > In pseudocode, what I want to do is this:
> >   foreach row in table
> >     in column A, swap "something" with
> "somethingelse" leaving the rest
> >     of the column's content alone
> >
> > I think that this could be done with a single,
> fairly simple command,
> > but I'd hate to screw up the whole database by
> getting it wrong.
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions?  Thanks.
> 
> 
> To simply update a column for an entire table,
> 
>   UPDATE table SET column =
> someTransformation(column);
> 
> Since there's no WHERE clause, this operates over
> the entire table.
> 
> If the transformation is more complicated, you may
> need to write a short
> Perl script to do the same thing .. the advantage to
> that is you can do the
> transformation and check that it works first,
> without actually updating the
> database.
> 
> 
> Now in terms of being able to go back in case you
> got it wrong, there are a
> number of options.
> 
> 1. Backup the table first, and restore it if things
> go wrong;
> 2. Create another column, and copy the original
> column to the new column,
> and mess with the new column;
> 3. In Postgres, I would bracket my attempts with
> BEGIN WORK and COMMIT (if
> it worked) or ROLLBACK (if not). I'm not as aware of
> whether that's offered
> in MySQL yet, and which version of MySQL you have.
> 
> 
> Finally, make sure your test ("Did it work?') is
> ironclad -- you don't want
> to make the change then discover it's wrong for male
> students born in
> Saskatchewan. Or something. Good luck.
> 
> -- 
> Alex Beamish
> Toronto, Ontario
> 


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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 19:16:13 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:16:13 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
Message-ID: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb>


Hi all,

is there some tool that helps optimise Perl, in the manner of gprof or 
similar ?

thanks,
Peter
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 19:22:02 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:22:02 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <v.y-S9GV0EkPguNQecKtNiGE4w@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb>
Message-ID: <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 10:16:13PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> is there some tool that helps optimise Perl, in the manner of gprof or 
> similar ?

man Devel::DProf
man dprofpp

Use is something like:

# perl -d:DProf myscript.pl
# dprofpp

A temp file called tmon.out is created which is what dprofpp looks at.
dprofpp has options to display different information too.

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 19:37:14 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:37:14 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <20060608192202.GA559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi>



On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 10:16:13PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> is there some tool that helps optimise Perl, in the manner of gprof or
>> similar ?
>
> man Devel::DProf
> man dprofpp
>
> Use is something like:
>
> # perl -d:DProf myscript.pl
> # dprofpp
>
> A temp file called tmon.out is created which is what dprofpp looks at.
> dprofpp has options to display different information too.

Wow, that was fast ;-) Your answer got here before the echo of my own 
message. Thanks, that was useful.

But more exactly, does anyone know a more efficient way to increase a 
string variable's length, written like:

   $var = $var.$more

where this needs to be done 100,000 times in realtime (say, a few 
seconds) ?

$more is usually a line of text (~80chars) and $var can grow to 8 Megs.

I have thought of using a hash indexed by line numbers instead of a 
simple var. This will almost certainly be faster (depending on how 
horribly (?) the '.' operator is implemented). Before I do this, has 
anyone got a pointer to a discussion document on such issues ?

'.' seems to run in O(n^2) so far. Maybe Perl uses the C string storage 
convention internally instead of Pascal ? (ouch)

thanks,
Peter
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 19:54:51 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:54:51 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <l.mj-QzXrDcOdiwMExQAlNVyOzA@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi>
Message-ID: <20060608195451.GA15084@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 10:37:14PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>But more exactly, does anyone know a more efficient way to increase a 
>string variable's length, written like:
>
>  $var = $var.$more
>
>where this needs to be done 100,000 times in realtime (say, a few 
>seconds) ?

I certainly don't know, but if I were you I would seek the wisdom of the
Perl Monks <http://perlmonks.org>.  If past performance is any indicator
you will have a wealth of high-quality answers within just a few
minutes.
-- 

yours,

William

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 19:59:13 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:59:13 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <l.mj-QzXrDcOdiwMExQAlNVyOzA@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi>
Message-ID: <20060608195913.GB559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 10:37:14PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> Wow, that was fast ;-) Your answer got here before the echo of my own 
> message. Thanks, that was useful.
> 
> But more exactly, does anyone know a more efficient way to increase a 
> string variable's length, written like:
> 
>   $var = $var.$more
> 
> where this needs to be done 100,000 times in realtime (say, a few 
> seconds) ?
> 
> $more is usually a line of text (~80chars) and $var can grow to 8 Megs.
> 
> I have thought of using a hash indexed by line numbers instead of a 
> simple var. This will almost certainly be faster (depending on how 
> horribly (?) the '.' operator is implemented). Before I do this, has 
> anyone got a pointer to a discussion document on such issues ?
> 
> '.' seems to run in O(n^2) so far. Maybe Perl uses the C string storage 
> convention internally instead of Pascal ? (ouch)

Quite likely given how easy it is to make perl use c coded modules.

How would this perform:
@myvars = ();
loop over input {
	push @myvars,$more;
}
$var = join('', at myvars);
@myvars = (); # Just in case that helps perl free the memory sooner

Does that run any faster or is join implemented badly too?

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 20:07:45 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:07:45 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <l.mj-QzXrDcOdiwMExQAlNVyOzA@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi>
Message-ID: <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>


I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to 
know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.

Peter

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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 20:18:20 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:18:20 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <20060608195913.GB559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <20060608195913.GB559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <ikmztt.xttri.wfssx@iiupi.up.ig>


Lennart,

I will try your join() tomorrow, I cannot continue today.

thanks all, I will come back about this,
Peter

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 20:38:14 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:38:14 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv-KBbTu2WyDXs@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>
Message-ID: <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 11:07:45PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to 
> know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.

Perl don't have someting icky like $var .= $more; does it?

The problem is likely that when a string is created a certain amount of
space is allocated, but when adding to it, often you may have to copy
the whole string into a new bigger memory block before adding the new
stuff in.  Not sure how arrays are managed in perl, like do they have to
be copied and reallocated when stuff is added.  Can you predefine how
many entries it should have?  Does join do all the preallocation at
once, or does it just expand to a dumb loop doing the same thing you
were already doing?

How do you do it with a hash?

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  8 21:47:14 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 00:47:14 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <20060608203814.GC559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>
 <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>


On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 11:07:45PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to
>> know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.
>
> Perl don't have someting icky like $var .= $more; does it?

Not that I know of it.

> The problem is likely that when a string is created a certain amount of
> space is allocated, but when adding to it, often you may have to copy
> the whole string into a new bigger memory block before adding the new
> stuff in.  Not sure how arrays are managed in perl, like do they have to
> be copied and reallocated when stuff is added.  Can you predefine how
> many entries it should have?  Does join do all the preallocation at
> once, or does it just expand to a dumb loop doing the same thing you
> were already doing?

In C one allocates a buffer with room to spare and fills it by adding 
strings (never losing the length, a pointer points to the last byte put 
in, and a counter keeps track of the length). If one runs out of space, 
one reallocates the string in place. This is done rarely (say once in a 
thousand writes) when correctly set up. The speed can be amazing.

> How do you do it with a hash?

%hash=();
$idx=0;

cond loop {
   $hash{$idx++}=$line;
}

$res='';
$i=0;
while($i<$idx) {
   $res = $res.$hash{$i++};
}

this is fast, and could be faster by adding buckets. I think that Perl 
measures the length of the string and caches it. If the next access is 
'soon enough' the length must not be calculated again. The speedup 
factor is between 6 and 13 times (!) vs. using '.' standalone.

join is extremely slow. I will try it again in a different config. Using 
join is a little like using '.' I think.

Peter
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 01:06:00 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:06:00 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <xpokbi.suqfd-hSmL8EKQ8VS6DGjoySUwEHAV1P/rzPrF@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi> <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>
Message-ID: <20060609010600.GA18031@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 12:47:14AM +0300, Peter wrote:
>
>On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
>>On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 11:07:45PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>>>I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to
>>>know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.
>>
>>Perl don't have someting icky like $var .= $more; does it?
>
>Not that I know of it.

Yes, it does.  The ".=" works as you would expect.
-- 

yours,

William

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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 01:07:18 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu,  8 Jun 2006 21:07:18 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <4485FCEC.9040801-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>:

> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
>> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
>> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
>> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
>> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?
>
> I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.  It 
> works well.

How do you figure out which block device it is, when you want to mount
it?

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From rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 00:42:26 2006
From: rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org (Rick Delaney)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <xpokbi.suqfd-hSmL8EKQ8VS6DGjoySUwEHAV1P/rzPrF@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi> <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>
Message-ID: <20060609004226.GG21377@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 12:47:14AM +0300, Peter wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 11:07:45PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> >>I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to
> >>know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.
> >
> >Perl don't have someting icky like $var .= $more; does it?
> 
> Not that I know of it.

It does.  If you don't like the perlmonks suggestion you might want to
try the local Toronto Perl Mongers mailing list, tpm-BnhL/mGhxvQEbZ0PF+XxCw at public.gmane.org

> >How do you do it with a hash?
> 
> %hash=();
> $idx=0;
> 
> cond loop {
>   $hash{$idx++}=$line;
> }
> 
> $res='';
> $i=0;
> while($i<$idx) {
>   $res = $res.$hash{$i++};
> }
> 
> this is fast, and could be faster by adding buckets. I think that Perl 
> measures the length of the string and caches it. If the next access is 
> 'soon enough' the length must not be calculated again. The speedup 
> factor is between 6 and 13 times (!) vs. using '.' standalone.

Your problem is certainly not with '.' since you are still using it.
More likely you have nested loops or something but it is really
difficult to tell what you're trying to do with your pseudocode.

If all you want is all input in one variable then there are many ways to
do so directly.  One would be

    $var = join "", <INPUT>;

Faster would be

    { local $/; $var = <INPUT>; }


-- 
Rick Delaney
rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 02:06:50 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:06:50 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>	<4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com> <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <4488D7BA.5080503@rogers.com>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Quoting James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>:
> 
>> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any experience with external cases
>>> (USB or parallel port) for internal IDE drives?  I
>>> need one to work with quite an old drive (4GB).  It
>>> came with a Dell machine; I know Dell sometimes has
>>> some incompatibilities.  Will that make a difference?
>>
>> I recently bought an Adaptec case, from Factory Direct, for $20.  It
>> works well.
> 
> How do you figure out which block device it is, when you want to mount
> it?

That depends on your distro.  USB drives will generally appear as
/dev/sda etc.  In SUSE 10.1 the device gets mounted on /media/<drive
label>.  For example, my external hard drive, in that Adaptec case has
the very original label of "usbdrive" and so gets mounted
/media/usbdrive.  A pen drive that I keep attached to my key chain has
the label of JAMES KNOTT and thus get mounted on /media/JAMES KNOTT.



BTW, that Adaptec case is advertised in the current Factory Direct
flyer, which is in today's Toronto Star and should also be in all the
stores.  The listed price is $20.
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 03:51:03 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:51:03 -0400
Subject: OT- Micro$oft IPod
Message-ID: <1149825063.4559.1.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0
from
http://blog.eweek.com/blogs/katt/
from
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/

RickT
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 04:55:48 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 00:55:48 -0400
Subject: An alternative to http-replicator
Message-ID: <20060609045548.GA21071@waltdnes.org>

  We want to be "kinder and gentler" to the Gentoo mirrors.  I have 2
machines; my main machine and a 1999 450 mhz PIII as "hot backup".  I
try to keep the backup up to date with apps duplicating the main
machine, so that if the main machine dies, I can restore some data from
backups and be running in a couple of hours.

  The procedure for "emerge --rsync" using the main machine as server is
simple.  I'll now present my solution for /usr/portage/distfiles.  This
obviously works best for machines with a similar set of apps.  Run
emerge update on the server machine first.  It'll get the tarballs it
needs, and they'll be sitting in /usr/portage/distfiles, waiting to be
served out to other machines in your LAN that need the same tarballs.

  I use the "boa" webserver.  It's lighweight, simple to configure, and
you can run multiple instances simultaneously.  That is the best way to
separate privileges for different clients.

  *IMPORTANT*  Gentoo's emerge command always looks in the "distfiles"
folder below whatever URL it's given for a mirror.  E.g. if I specify
"http://www.bad.example.com" as the mirror to use, emerge will look in
"http://www.bad.example.com/distfiles".  The "Alias" declaration in
boa.conf handles this.  The secondary machine's /etc/make.conf has the
line...

GENTOO_MIRRORS="http://192.168.123.252:1024 ftp://ftp.ndlug.nd.edu/pub/gentoo/
+http://mirror.datapipe.net/gentoo"

so it'll try my main machine (192.168.123.252 on port 1024) first.  I
invoke the portage server dedicated boa with the command...
boa -c /root/.boa/portage/
which implies that the config file to use is /root/.boa/portage/boa.conf

My /root/.boa/portage/boa.conf currently looks like so...

Port 1024
Listen 192.168.123.252
User nobody
Group nogroup
ErrorLog /var/log/boa/portage/error_log
AccessLog /var/log/boa/portage/access_log
DocumentRoot /usr/portage/distfiles/
UseLocaltime
DirectoryMaker /usr/lib/boa/boa_indexer
KeepAliveMax 1000
KeepAliveTimeout 10
MimeTypes /etc/boa/mime.types
DefaultType text/plain
Alias /distfiles /usr/portage/distfiles

  Note that in addition to using a dedicated I/O port, the "portage
instance" of boa also has its own log files.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 08:45:19 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:45:19 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <v.y-S9GV0EkPguNQecKtNiGE4w@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb>
Message-ID: <molpk.r@ycdr.skct.aa>


Thanks to all who have responded. I did not have time to check the 
perlmonger links suggested, but I think I have solved my problem. 
Conclusions:

Solutions by speed:

   5. $var .= $line;
  13. %hash{$idx++} = $line; later collect this into $var using .= or join
180. $var = $var.$line;
n/a. @var = (@var, $line);

The first number is seconds runtime with my test dataset (8Megs). In all 
cases there is a 'collect' phase and a 'print' phase. The 'collect' 
phase has the $var .= $line; run in a certain phase of a state machine 
that analyzes <INPUT> lines. It can collect up to 100,000 lines of about 
80 characters (~8Megs). In all cases the modified collect instructions 
were placed in the exact same place in the code, and no loop rewriting 
was done. It can be said that there is some distance (code length 
speaking) between the calls to the collect statements.

thanks again,

Peter
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 09:51:59 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 05:51:59 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	 <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com>
	 <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606090251i45c6fa5at622bbdcbdc0a0d86@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/8/06, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org <moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> How do you figure out which block device it is, when you want to mount
> it?

One way is to run cfdisk, which comes with all Linux distributions. It
gives you a listing of the partitions on your main hard drive like so:

                                        Disk Drive: /dev/hda
                                  Size: 20490559488 bytes, 20.4 GB

     Name           Flags         Part Type    FS Type
[Label]           Size (MB)
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     hda1           Boot           Primary     W95 FAT32 (LBA)
                 16779.58
     hda5                          Logical     Linux ext3
[/]                 3174.96
     hda2                          Primary     Linux
                   534.65


Or try the command file -s /dev/hd*

$ file -s /dev/hd*
/dev/hda:  x86 boot sector; partition 1: ID=0xc, active, starthead 1,
startsector 63, 32772537 sectors; partition 2: ID=0x83, starthead 254,
startsector 38973690, 1044225 sectors; partition 4: ID=0xf, starthead
0, startsector 32772600, 6201090 sectors, code offset 0x48
/dev/hda1: x86 boot sector, code offset 0x58, OEM-ID "MSWIN4.1",
sectors/cluster 16, Media descriptor 0xf8, heads 255, hidden sectors
63, sectors 32772537 (volumes > 32 MB) , FAT (32 bit), sectors/FAT
15992, rootdir cluster 1338964, reserved3 0x800000, serial number
0xe5b1309, unlabeled
/dev/hda2: Linux/i386 swap file (new style) 1 (4K pages) size 130527 pages
/dev/hda4: x86 boot sector; partition 1: ID=0x83, starthead 1,
startsector 63, 6201027 sectors, extended partition table (last)\011
/dev/hda5: Linux rev 1.0 ext3 filesystem data (needs journal recovery)
/dev/hdc:  writable, no read permission
/dev/hdd:  writable, no read permission

Please CC me if you reply to this message.
Cheers,
Jason

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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 10:02:10 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:02:10 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes - Mandriva LE2006
In-Reply-To: <44835859.7060709-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca>
	 <1149436764.3710.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <44835859.7060709@iprimus.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606090302j54341654s61abc227f0bea50c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/06, Clive DaSilva <cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> printers attached to the XP box but there is a comment under the printer
> line saying "tree connect failed" .... will have to keep researching this
My memory on this is hazy but IIRC tree connect failed can indicate an
incorrect password.

Perhaps try using smbclient to connect, and use smbclient's debug
options. Or ask on the Mandriva forums, or better yet the Samba users'
mailing list if one exists.

Cheers,
Jason

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From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 13:55:02 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:55:02 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
Message-ID: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>

My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with 
authentication.

I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail (v1.3.1)

Any suggestions other than upgrade?

bob

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 14:33:26 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:33:26 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <xpokbi.suqfd-hSmL8EKQ8VS6DGjoySUwEHAV1P/rzPrF@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi> <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>
Message-ID: <20060609143326.GD559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 12:47:14AM +0300, Peter wrote:
> %hash=();
> $idx=0;
> 
> cond loop {
>   $hash{$idx++}=$line;
> }

Isn't using a hash with numerical keys rather like using an array except
possibly less efficient?

> $res='';
> $i=0;
> while($i<$idx) {
>   $res = $res.$hash{$i++};
> }
> 
> this is fast, and could be faster by adding buckets. I think that Perl 
> measures the length of the string and caches it. If the next access is 
> 'soon enough' the length must not be calculated again. The speedup 
> factor is between 6 and 13 times (!) vs. using '.' standalone.
> 
> join is extremely slow. I will try it again in a different config. Using 
> join is a little like using '.' I think.

Well something like this might work faster than hashes (not sure which
are faster):

@array=();

cond loop {
	push @array,$line;
}

$res='';
foreach $line(@array) {
	$res=$res.$line;
}

Of course I fail to see why that would be faster to perl than just doing
the line concatenation in the first place.

Doing loops that make longer strings might be more efficient to cut down
on copying the string to many times.  ie:

$res='';
$cound=0;
# Do 10 at a time
while($count+10 < scalar(@array)) {
	$res=$res.$array[$count+0].$array[$count+1].$array[$count+2].$array[$count+3].$array[$count+4].$array[$count+5].$array[$count+6].$array[$count+7].$array[$count+8].$array[$count+9];
	$count=$count+10;
}
# Do whatever is left under 10 at the end
while($count < scalar(@array)) {
        $res=$res.$array[$count];
        $count=$count+1;
}
Could expand on that to do 100 at a time, then 10 at a time, then 1,
etc.

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 14:35:31 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:35:31 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <molpk.r-uRGT/Bvv4eufpPMHVI/1wQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <molpk.r@ycdr.skct.aa>
Message-ID: <20060609143531.GE559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 11:45:19AM +0300, Peter wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all who have responded. I did not have time to check the 
> perlmonger links suggested, but I think I have solved my problem. 
> Conclusions:
> 
> Solutions by speed:
> 
>   5. $var .= $line;
>  13. %hash{$idx++} = $line; later collect this into $var using .= or join
> 180. $var = $var.$line;
> n/a. @var = (@var, $line);
> 
> The first number is seconds runtime with my test dataset (8Megs). In all 
> cases there is a 'collect' phase and a 'print' phase. The 'collect' 
> phase has the $var .= $line; run in a certain phase of a state machine 
> that analyzes <INPUT> lines. It can collect up to 100,000 lines of about 
> 80 characters (~8Megs). In all cases the modified collect instructions 
> were placed in the exact same place in the code, and no loop rewriting 
> was done. It can be said that there is some distance (code length 
> speaking) between the calls to the collect statements.

So .= appends efficiently, while $var = $var.$new recreates the line
each time (makes sense since that is what you are telling it to do).
Good to knwo the string append is rather efficient in perl then.

Len Sorensen
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 15:30:36 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:30:36 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026-u5UFdnW6R/KJ17fRuoxbtdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606090830n676cc564hd4862f588b4f6def@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/9/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with
> authentication.
>
> I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail (v1.3.1)

I used Kmail for a long time back around those version numbers.  I
apologize that I can't say "go to this tab and press that button," or
even tell you for sure that SMTP is in there, but I believe it is -
Kmail was already quite advanced then and I remember seeing it.  I'm
writing this almost fact-free missive because I'm not sure anyone else
is going to give you anything and I wanted to at least say "I think
it's possible."

> Any suggestions other than upgrade?

I'm going to suggest it anyway - at this point 7.2 is difficult to
maintain and you're missing out on all kinds of possibilities.  I
would encourage you to consider it.  Why would you not want to/be able
to?  We might have suggestions to help with that.

Good luck.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 15:42:21 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:42:21 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <20060609143326.GD559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>
 <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>
 <20060609143326.GD559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <jdjo.ivthwz.zhgvlr@iiupi.up.ig>


On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 12:47:14AM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> %hash=();
>> $idx=0;
>>
>> cond loop {
>>   $hash{$idx++}=$line;
>> }
>
> Isn't using a hash with numerical keys rather like using an array except
> possibly less efficient?

Why less efficient ? Arrays with variable length entries have to be 
stored somehow internally (i.e. not as plain arrays). One good way is 
hashes. Another is an array of pointers to typed (with size!) data on 
the heap.

>> $res='';
>> $i=0;
>> while($i<$idx) {
>>   $res = $res.$hash{$i++};
>> }
>>
>> this is fast, and could be faster by adding buckets. I think that Perl
>> measures the length of the string and caches it. If the next access is
>> 'soon enough' the length must not be calculated again. The speedup
>> factor is between 6 and 13 times (!) vs. using '.' standalone.
>>
>> join is extremely slow. I will try it again in a different config. Using
>> join is a little like using '.' I think.
>
> Well something like this might work faster than hashes (not sure which
> are faster):
>
> @array=();
>
> cond loop {
> 	push @array,$line;
> }
>
> $res='';
> foreach $line(@array) {
> 	$res=$res.$line;
> }

This is just like @array = (@array,$line); and it is slow. Slower than 
the other methods. I think that it all revolves around C convention 
storage for strings and Perl throwing away the length of a string if 
enough calculations come in between. Interestingly, $a .= $b; is much 
faster then $a = $a.$b; if used occasionally (i.e. lots of instructions 
in the loop). Both are as fast if used in a tight loop (which Perl 
likely optimizes).

My speed is reasonable now, using .= I go through data at ~600kBytes/sec 
without any unexpected CPU load peaks. A faster CPU would help (this 
runs on a 500Mhz P3 now).

I will put this question on a Perlmongers list when I have time.

thanks, the list really helped,

Peter
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From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 18:00:17 2006
From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:00:17 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026-u5UFdnW6R/KJ17fRuoxbtdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>
Message-ID: <4489B731.2080701@pobox.com>

bob wrote:
> My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with 
> authentication.
>
> I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail (v1.3.1)
>
> Any suggestions other than upgrade?
>
> bob
>   

Configure KMail to use your MTA to send mail, then configure your MTA to 
authenticate with Netrover. As a bonus, all mail sending programs will 
then work, not just KMail with its built-in SMTP function.

This is quite easy to do Postfix and Exim. I don't know anything about 
Sendmail.
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From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 18:29:32 2006
From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:29:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Job offer...
Message-ID: <20060609182932.29474.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Earlier this week I was at a wireless conference where
I bumped in to a gentleman who is looking looking for
someone to do what sounded like some fairly high end
web page programming and some training. The gentleman
in question has full time job with a local headhunting
firm, but this work that he wants done I gather is for
a charity project that he in involved with.

Anyone who would be interested in learning more,
e-mail me and I will be happy to do some
introductions.

Colin McGregor

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 18:34:03 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:34:03 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <4489B731.2080701-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com> <4489B731.2080701@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20060609183403.GB23618@wp.magstar.net>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 02:00:17PM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote:
> bob wrote:
> >My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with 
> >authentication.
> >
> >I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail 
> >(v1.3.1)
> >
> >Any suggestions other than upgrade?
> >
> >bob
> >  
> 
> Configure KMail to use your MTA to send mail, then configure your MTA to 
> authenticate with Netrover. As a bonus, all mail sending programs will 
> then work, not just KMail with its built-in SMTP function.
> 
> This is quite easy to do Postfix and Exim. I don't know anything about 
> Sendmail.

Equally easy for Sendmail, too. :-)

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 18:37:29 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:37:29 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <20060609183403.GB23618-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com> <4489B731.2080701@pobox.com> <20060609183403.GB23618@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <20060609183729.GB30233@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 02:34:03PM -0400, William Park wrote:
>
>Equally easy for Sendmail, too. :-)

Sure.  I belive it is something like this:
(*&%)*#)$*)(*% JFIEJF )*)*)*

:)

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 7 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 18:49:18 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:49:18 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026-u5UFdnW6R/KJ17fRuoxbtdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606091149m10d1a900kd700c034919be023@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/9/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with
> authentication.
> I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail (v1.3.1)
> Any suggestions other than upgrade?

Bob,
Just curious, what are your system specs? Also, do you not like upgrading? :)

I am typing this on an AMD 1.4-GHz equivalent machine with 128 MB of
RAM and a 20GB hard drive. I could be using my laptop instead, which
is faster, but this machine works 100% fine for web browsing, emacs,
and the C++ work I do for school, so it really doesn't make a
difference. Heavier work like rebuilding Wine from scratch is a task
better suited for doing on the other machine (or overnight).

I am on the latest Debian. To save disk space, I installed the base
system only, then installed the parts of KDE I wanted: that means most
of the kde-core package.

Cheers,
Jason
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 22:11:52 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 01:11:52 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <20060609183729.GB30233-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com> <4489B731.2080701@pobox.com>
 <20060609183403.GB23618@wp.magstar.net> <20060609183729.GB30233@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <gffs.miwwsj.yu@czvpi.up.iu>


On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 02:34:03PM -0400, William Park wrote:
>> 
>> Equally easy for Sendmail, too. :-)
>
> Sure.  I belive it is something like this:
> (*&%)*#)$*)(*% JFIEJF )*)*)*

bzzt, you have to code that as a m4 macro and run m4 on it.

Peter
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  9 22:59:04 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:59:04 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <gffs.miwwsj.yu-TNLh7Z0JHkjnE1QahLOxrw@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>
	 <4489B731.2080701@pobox.com> <20060609183403.GB23618@wp.magstar.net>
	 <20060609183729.GB30233@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	 <gffs.miwwsj.yu@czvpi.up.iu>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606091559j4146b3c0n6e3ff6a4abee0486@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/9/06, Peter <plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> bzzt, you have to code that as a m4 macro and run m4 on it.
Actually, you have to run m4 on it twice, because there are macros
that generate other macros. :P

-- 
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 01:55:49 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 21:55:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
 <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com> <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606092153550.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:

> How do you figure out which block device it is, when you want to mount
> it?

I've found the easiest way is to apply a label to the filesystem and mount 
it via the label in /etc/fstab.  The usb/firewire devices will be 
dynamically allocated block device names like sda, sdb, etc.  Using labels 
avoids a lot of messing around.

Here is an example entry from an /etc/fstab on one of our boxes:

LABEL=archive   /mnt/archive    xfs     defaults      0 0

Rob

-- 
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Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
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From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 03:24:54 2006
From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David C. Chipman)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 23:24:54 -0400
Subject: Job offer...
In-Reply-To: <20060609182932.29474.qmail-fjYszm/wOJWB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060609182932.29474.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060609232454.fb073db2.dchipman@ican.net>

	Hi Colin, 

		I might be interested, but I have some questions before actualy deciding: How does this person want to interact with the prospoective volunteer? I'm physically disabled, so if there is a question about accessability I may be "out". What (computer) languages are involved? Thanks, 

			-David Chipman

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:29:32 -0400 (EDT)
Colin McGregor <colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Earlier this week I was at a wireless conference where
> I bumped in to a gentleman who is looking looking for
> someone to do what sounded like some fairly high end
> web page programming and some training. The gentleman
> in question has full time job with a local headhunting
> firm, but this work that he wants done I gather is for
> a charity project that he in involved with.
> 
> Anyone who would be interested in learning more,
> e-mail me and I will be happy to do some
> introductions.
> 
> Colin McGregor
> 
> --
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 03:27:06 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 23:27:06 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca> <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com> <20060608210718.3k5us0qjoggsk0oo@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <20060610032706.GA22274@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 09:07:18PM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote

> How do you figure out which block device it is, when you want to mount
> it?

  The hard way...
  - as root, execute "fdisk -l" *BEFORE* connecting the device
  - as root, execute "fdisk -l"  *AFTER* connecting the device

  You should see an extra device "/dev/sda" or whatever.  Then you'd
have to manually mount it, which can only be done by root, unless you
have an entry for the device in /etc/fstab.  You're better off writing
udev rules to create a name that is always associated with that device.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 03:59:44 2006
From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 23:59:44 -0400
Subject: Voicecode
Message-ID: <200606092359.44895.marc@lijour.net>

Hi

does somebody know about the voicecode project?
It is supposed to help people with disability.

marc
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From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 11:34:54 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:34:54 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606091149m10d1a900kd700c034919be023-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com> <c241693f0606091149m10d1a900kd700c034919be023@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606100734.54703.ican@netrover.com>

My system has been "telling me" for a while now that it is time to upgrade.    
I guess my provider has provided the final push.

As a developer/researcher you just accumulate so much stuff under the everyday 
system that I dread the upgrade process.

bob 


On Friday 09 June 2006 02:49 pm, Jason Spiro wrote:
> On 6/9/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with
> > authentication.
> > I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail
> > (v1.3.1) Any suggestions other than upgrade?
>
> Bob,
> Just curious, what are your system specs? Also, do you not like upgrading?
> :)
>
> I am typing this on an AMD 1.4-GHz equivalent machine with 128 MB of
> RAM and a 20GB hard drive. I could be using my laptop instead, which
> is faster, but this machine works 100% fine for web browsing, emacs,
> and the C++ work I do for school, so it really doesn't make a
> difference. Heavier work like rebuilding Wine from scratch is a task
> better suited for doing on the other machine (or overnight).
>
> I am on the latest Debian. To save disk space, I installed the base
> system only, then installed the parts of KDE I wanted: that means most
> of the kde-core package.
>
> Cheers,
> Jason
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 17:25:25 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:25:25 -0400
Subject: Just wondering about console fonts
Message-ID: <1149960325.4389.15.camel@gandalf>

Hello

The console fonts under my old 1994 slack distro were a lot nicer than
anything under Sarge, and I especially prefer the roman font in the file
rl.fnt, which I am now using under Sarge.

Because the older fonts were nicer (IMO) and had more variety, I was
wondering why these fonts were abandoned. It does not appear that anyone
else has used them since, and I have recently gone thru Fedora and
Debian. Were they simply forgotten?

>From a 1994 distro I have (TransAmeritech/Slackware), I pulled out a
*.fnt font from a package in that distro. I read it into my font table
(under Debian Sarge) using 
   consolechars -f /<path_to_my_consolefonts>/rl.fnt
... and it worked. It also worked on reboot by sticking the command in
one of my /etc/init.d files (I think I had to replace a command in the
file console-screen.sh to do it).

Paul King


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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 19:32:21 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:32:21 -0500
Subject: Voicecode
In-Reply-To: <200606092359.44895.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606092359.44895.marc@lijour.net>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606101232s73ca2ef3lcc9f6627e906174d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/9/06, Marc Lijour <marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> does somebody know about the voicecode project?
> It is supposed to help people with disability.

Cool!

VoiceCode is an Open Source initiative started by the National
Research Council of Canada, to develop a programming by voice toolbox.
The aim of the project is to make programming through voice input as
easy and productive as with mouse and keyboard.

* http://voicecode.iit.nrc.ca/
* http://sourceforge.net/projects/voicecode
* http://voicecode.iit.nrc.ca/VCode_1_Doc/public/wiki.cgi?obj=Using_Voice_Code_to_program_on_Linux
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 19:37:55 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:55 -0400
Subject: Kmail and SMTP authentication
In-Reply-To: <200606100734.54703.ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606091354.k59DsF0Z018026@river.netrover.com>
	 <c241693f0606091149m10d1a900kd700c034919be023@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200606100734.54703.ican@netrover.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606101237n51b7353ck6d1ca2c14adb00f8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/10/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My system has been "telling me" for a while now that it is time to upgrade.
> I guess my provider has provided the final push.
>
> As a developer/researcher you just accumulate so much stuff under the everyday system that I dread the upgrade process.

I've learned after years of using Linux that having a couple of spare
partitions lying around never hurts.  Not that this helps you much if
you don't have a spare partition, but if you do or are willing to buy
an additional hard drive for your system, this will work.  Install
your new distro of choice on the "other" partition, and use GRUB/LILO
so you can boot both the new and the old distros.  Work on getting the
new distro up to spec when you have time, use the old distro when you
just need to get work done.  This assumes your /home/ is a separate
partition, but even that can be gotten around - use a softlink on the
new distro until you're ready to use the new distro permanently, then
do some partition housecleaning.

Fodder for the distro wars ...  I'm not too happy with Fedora Core 5:
it's bulky and the software installation is ugly and slow from the GUI
or the command line.  I left RedHat a little while after the
introduction of Fedora Core 1, went to Debian.  Debian does seem to
have the best/fastest/most reliable package system (also applies to
derivatives, best known being Ubuntu).  It also seems to have the
easiest upgrades.  Whatever you do, I don't think it would be a good
idea to "upgrade" at this point, too many releases have gone by.
Install a new distro on another partition, migrate all those config
files, recompile all those little apps ...  I feel your pain, if it
helps any.

> > On 6/9/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > My dialup provider (Netrover) has recently switched to SMTP with
> > > authentication.
> > > I can't find the place to set this in my RedHat 7.2 version of Kmail
> > > (v1.3.1) Any suggestions other than upgrade?

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 10 19:50:47 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:50:47 -0400
Subject: A few words about Crumz Restaurant
Message-ID: <1149969047.5012.24.camel@gandalf>

TLUGers:

A few weeks ago there was a thread discussing any recommended WIFi
internet cafe's. I mentioned Crumz here in Oakville as an alternative to
Starbuck's. I couldn't give much more detail, but I now have a few other
things to say about it, since I have now been there.

The service is very good. There is a distinctive Eurpoean atmosphere to
the place (tasteful furniture, still life paintings next to abstract
paintings depicting Einstein among other images -- I don't know why that
works as "European" but it seems to), a table of 4 PCs for people who
forgot to bring their laptops. On one side is a widescreen TV which was
tuned into the World Cup, in 5.1 surround.

If you bring a laptop, Internet is free; if you use their computers it's
about $3.50 flat rate. That is to say, there is no timer, and no login.
They use Windows XP. Usage of their PCs can be free also, so long as you
purchase a main course. They serve the usual Espresso, Latte, and so on.
However, the owner tells me that he has also some imported Turkish
coffee. All meals, sandwiches, and pastries are made on-site (unlike
Starbucks).

The only thing was that I wasn't satisfied with the location of and
number of plugins for laptops. Some plugins require going across seating
areas or across workstations, which may form a trip hazard for people
sitting away from the plugins, and in some cases (such as in my case), I
may have to bring an extension cord in case there is a crowd of people
and the better-situated plugins are taken. The day that I was there,
however, there was plenty of room, and if I brought my laptop, there
would have been no trouble finding a suitable plugin without having to
bring my own extension (I worry about this, because the battery on my
laptop usually lasts a matter of minutes before dying on me).

The website is http://www.crumzcafe.ca/, and it is located in the Town
Square on Lakeshore and George St.

Paul King



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From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 02:10:31 2006
From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:10:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A few words about Crumz Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <1149969047.5012.24.camel@gandalf>
References: <1149969047.5012.24.camel@gandalf>
Message-ID: <20060611021031.85775.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> TLUGers:
> 
> A few weeks ago there was a thread discussing any
> recommended WIFi
> internet cafe's. I mentioned Crumz here in Oakville
> as an alternative to
> Starbuck's. I couldn't give much more detail, but I
> now have a few other
> things to say about it, since I have now been there.

Well let me mention the Wireless Toronto folks, who
are involved in offering "free" wireless in the GTA,
including one Oakville location (Teriyaki Experience -
Oakville Town Centre, 200-240 North Service Rd.,
Oakville, 905-338-7312). 

The deal the Wireless Toronto people offer local
shop/cafe/resteraunt owner is:

 - Shop owner buys make/model WiFi hardware Wireless
Toronto specifies.
 - Shop owner pays for a high speed internet
connection.
 - Shop owner pays Wireless Toronto $50 per year to
cover server costs/PR.
 - Wireless Toronto does hardware set-up/install.
 - Wireless Toronto offers website to promote the shop
(and themselves).
 - Wireless Toronto offers set-up documentation at
each location.
 - Wireless Toronto does account management functions,
so they can take a stab at keeping users that are
TOTAL bad news off, and collect stats on who is using
network where.

Now, for MOST shop owners this is potentially a very
good deal as most shop owners don't have the knowledge
base to do a Wi-Fi set-up, never mind wanting to deal
with the other areas of doing a Wi-Fi set-up. The
reason for specifying the hardware is the Wireless
Toronto people are using the Linksys Linux routers, so
by reprogramming the routers they can pass some user
login functions out to the router (reducing the
bandwidth demands...). 

In dollars and cents, it would not take very many more
coffees per day sold to make this a solid money maker
for a coffee shop. 

So, 21 hot spots set-up from Oakville to Scarberia,
all kind of neat. Sort of doing a variation on what
the Toronto Free-Net (my tradition favourite free
Internet service) for the wireless world. 

Colin McGregor
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 02:45:12 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:45:12 -0400
Subject: A few words about Crumz Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <20060611021031.85775.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611021031.85775.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <448B83B8.6080106@pppoe.ca>

Colin McGregor wrote:

>--- Paul King <pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>TLUGers:
>>
>>A few weeks ago there was a thread discussing any
>>recommended WIFi
>>internet cafe's. I mentioned Crumz here in Oakville
>>as an alternative to
>>Starbuck's. I couldn't give much more detail, but I
>>now have a few other
>>things to say about it, since I have now been there.
>>    
>>
>
>Well let me mention the Wireless Toronto folks, who
>are involved in offering "free" wireless in the GTA,
>including one Oakville location (Teriyaki Experience -
>Oakville Town Centre, 200-240 North Service Rd.,
>Oakville, 905-338-7312). 
>
>The deal the Wireless Toronto people offer local
>shop/cafe/resteraunt owner is:
>
> - Shop owner buys make/model WiFi hardware Wireless
>Toronto specifies.
> - Shop owner pays for a high speed internet
>connection.
> - Shop owner pays Wireless Toronto $50 per year to
>cover server costs/PR.
> - Wireless Toronto does hardware set-up/install.
> - Wireless Toronto offers website to promote the shop
>(and themselves).
> - Wireless Toronto offers set-up documentation at
>each location.
> - Wireless Toronto does account management functions,
>so they can take a stab at keeping users that are
>TOTAL bad news off, and collect stats on who is using
>network where.
>
>  
>
Is information as to how detailed are the stats (not the stats itself) 
available?
Is there a privacy policy online to read?

Any info will be appreciated. Thanks.

>Now, for MOST shop owners this is potentially a very
>good deal as most shop owners don't have the knowledge
>base to do a Wi-Fi set-up, never mind wanting to deal
>with the other areas of doing a Wi-Fi set-up. The
>reason for specifying the hardware is the Wireless
>Toronto people are using the Linksys Linux routers, so
>by reprogramming the routers they can pass some user
>login functions out to the router (reducing the
>bandwidth demands...). 
>
>In dollars and cents, it would not take very many more
>coffees per day sold to make this a solid money maker
>for a coffee shop. 
>
>So, 21 hot spots set-up from Oakville to Scarberia,
>all kind of neat. Sort of doing a variation on what
>the Toronto Free-Net (my tradition favourite free
>Internet service) for the wireless world. 
>
>Colin McGregor
>--
>The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
>  
>
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 04:16:31 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:16:31 -0400
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061731540.3313-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>
	 <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <20060605142335.GA30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061731540.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606102116n43e7e920gf4b7e38f6f1000c7@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/06, Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
> > Then what took Hurd so long?
>
> Disagreements, lack of direction, general human related problems that can
> derail even the best project.

I don't think that was quite it.  There was agreement that they should
pursue using CMU Mach as the underlying kernel.  There was a
considerable delay because RMS was pursuing permission to use it at
much the same time that Microsoft was busy gutting the CMU Mach
project in order to assortedly populate their research division and
(equally important) to prevent Mach-based work from competing with
Windows NT.

By the time permission to use CMU Mach arrived, most of the people
interested in working on a "GNU kernel" had moved on to other projects
such as Linux.

> >> Sure.  Because a lot of hard work has gone into it.  I am emphasising that
> >> it is simply easier to make a microkernel system stable.
> >
> > Well other than QNX, I am still waiting to see a successful microkernel
> > system that gets used.
>
> OS-9 (not Mac OS9 but Microware OS-9)

There are others, but little that's not pretty much curiosity.

> > Well the unix user space is excelent.  Little tools (modular design
> > after all) that do one thing well, working together is great.  Of course
>
> That's part of the conceptual side which many OSes have taken on board (as
> per my earlier posts).
>
> There is cruft in *nix userspace.  Why exactly is the command to send a
> signal to a process called "kill"? The name is historical but is defined
> in POSIX now.  This one was highlighted to me just recently when I was
> providing training on the shell and command line tools.

That "kill" is poorly named is in no way a meaningful argument in
favor of using a microkernel.  Similarly, the fact that people get
confused as to why Unix often uses such directories as /bin, /sbin
/usr/sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/ucb to store differing programs is not a
reason for switching to a microkernel.

(The notion of a Union filesystem was something argued as being a good
thing about Hurd, but non-microkernels have implemented it, such as
BSD, Plan 9...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnionFS)

> > there is no reason a microkernel based system couldn't use the same user
> > space, and work great.
>
> Yes, very true.  In fact I fully expect the popular MK (microkernel)
> systems of the coming decades to fully support a Linux
> look-alike environment among others.
>
> I've alluded to this a bit in earlier posts:
>
> My view of future OSes is MK based systems with low level services
> (functions we'd now have in a monolithic kernel) running in userspace and
> the ability to simulataneously abstract a large number of environments
> cleanly and have them talk.  What we today call virtualisation would only
> be a subset of the abstraction I'm talking about.
>
> In an MK (in general) you lose in performance but you gain in stability
> and flexibility.  Experiments in the area show the performance loss is
> usually no more than 10% for an MK.  A well designed MK like recent
> versions of the L4 family can actually perform better than a monolithic
> kernel in some cases.

In Hurd, the notion of having all sorts of services managed as daemons
separate from any central "kernel" is certainly an interesting one.
In principle, that ought to allow restarting all sorts of services
without needing to reboot.

Of course, in practice, the Linux NFS server moved from a separate
server into the kernel because this made it significantly faster.

The last performance numbers I heard from the L4 folks was that they
could, by careful design, have the microkernel be only 10-15% slower
than the equivalent monolithic kernel.  I haven't seen any papers
recording the "microkernel performing better" claim.

> > If I was to accidentally byte swap some data in one module (say it's a
> > module that does caching) before sending it to the filesystem module,
> > there is nothing the filesystem module can do to save me.  Bugs are
> > bugs, and they will hurt data in some cases.
>
> If the caching module passes bad data, yes that could cause corruption.
> It also has nothing to do with my original assertion...
>
> This part of the discussion arose when I pointed out that tampering in one
> part of a monolithic kernel broke another part.  I was (and still am)
> talking about code changes, not corrupt data.
>
> No amount of tampering in one module will corrupt code in another module
> of a well designed MK system.  As they only communicate through a well
> defined protocol there remains integrity in the commands exchanged between
> the modules.  For example a buffer-cache module could only ask the
> filesystem module to do specific actions (flush block X to disk now,
> whatever).  The language the modules speak can be arbitrarily constrained.
>
> A well defined MK system would probably even put constraints on how
> rapidly messages could be sent over the protocol to prevent an internal
> DoS.

The Dragonfly BSD folk are trying to head down this sort of road,
using message passing (with choice of async/sync approaches).  Again,
this is a monolithic kernel; there is little that people consider
doing on microkernels that don't seem to benefit monolithic kernels...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 14:10:13 2006
From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Erebus)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:10:13 -0400
Subject: A few words about Crumz Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <1149969047.5012.24.camel@gandalf>
References: <1149969047.5012.24.camel@gandalf>
Message-ID: <448C2445.9020308@rogers.com>

Sounds like a nice place. Looks like it would be very easy to get to (even for people who come via transit).

Frank in Mississauga


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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 14:55:12 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:55:12 -0400
Subject: External cases for internal IDE drives; LiveCDs
In-Reply-To: <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060606165335.21ud0mv00sgg804o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	 <4485FCEC.9040801@rogers.com>
	 <20060607011104.hylo7m67zkswgckg@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606110755y6f967476g136dee09f937451d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/7/06, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org <moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> What's "Factory Direct"?  A search brings up unrelated
> stuff; Adaptec themselves want fifty bucks for the case.

Factory Direct (www.factorydirect.ca) and Computer Warehouse Outlet
(www.cwo.ca) are the main sellers of refurbished computers and
accessories in Toronto. The advantage of going into a physical store
in person is that you can usually try out the stuff in person in-store
to make sure it works before you buy it.

Other places to get stuff cheap or free are
http://www.redflagdeals.com (especially the forums),
http://toronto.craigslist.com (classified ads), and
http://www.freecycle.org (a set of mailing lists that let you give
away stuff for free, browse offers of free stuff, or request someone
give away something for free, and surprisingly, the system really
works. The Freecycle Network lists are especially good for
electronics, software and video games.)

Cheers,
Jason
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From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 18:57:05 2006
From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:57:05 -0400
Subject: Anyone get "Elephant's Dream" to work?
In-Reply-To: <4480876D.22152.270EB19-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <4480876D.22152.270EB19@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <448C6781.9040307@interlog.com>

Paul King wrote:
> The high-definition format played jerkily for me (my processor speed is likely 
> too slow), while the "1024" format ran at a decent speed.
> 
> Anyone know how to play this sucker back with full audio?

It plays on my machine (video and audio) with gmplayer. My machine is slow so 
the video playback isn't all that good but I can see the video. The audio 
track plays fine.

The file I am looking at is the one named Elephants_Dream_480-h264-st-aac.mov. 
It is a 480x270 image and uses the FFmpeg H.264 codec for video. It would 
appear to be a video codec that needs more computing power. I can watch a 
video that is in 640x368 aspect ratio which uses the FFmpeg MPEG-4 video codec 
with no problems in video or audio (as long as my machine is otherwise idle).

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172        |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus:
                                   |  Try to assimilate the world!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite>   |              -Pinkutus & the Borg
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 19:46:25 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:46:25 -0400
Subject: UserFriendly Strip Comments
Message-ID: <448C7311.6010103@rogers.com>


<http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20060611&mode=classic>
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 21:35:34 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:35:34 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
Message-ID: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>

  This sounds like something that's probably been done for other
reasons.  In Gentoo linux, source tarballs and patches are downloaded to
/usr/portage/distfiles.  And they accumulate there.  I prefer not to
blow them all away immediately.  There are often 1-line patches later on
that assume the presence of the original umpteen megabyte tarball.  If
it's not there, it has to be downloaded again, and the 1-line patch
applied to it.  I think that the best approach would be to delete files
after 30 days or so.

  So is thare a generic "aging out" script anywhere?

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 21:57:07 2006
From: rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org (Robin Humble)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:57:07 -0400
Subject: aterm/rxvt man page issues
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606011932590.28729-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280605312110icfc7335y1a9259702323580f@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606011932590.28729@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20060611215707.GA15058@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 07:54:33PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
>| From: Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>| When I use "man" (actually a special mode of "less" on most Linux
>| systems), it does weird things when displaying "`", "'", and "-"
>| (back-tick, single quote, and hyphen).  I get the letter "a" with a
>| caret over it replacing any of them, and some extra spaces.
>These programs are outputting UTF-8 (multicharacter encoding of
>UNICODE).  In UTF-8, characters within the ASCII set have the same encoding
>as in ASCII.
>
>Other characters (eg. those you mentioned) take multiple bytes.
>ISO-8859-1 characters that are not within ASCII take two bytes.
>
>The best fix would be to convince your terminal program that it is
>expecting UTF-8 from the programs running beneath it.

or try (csh/tcsh) 
  setenv LOCALE C
(sh/bash)
  export LOCALE=C

cheers,
robin

>
>Alternatively, you could try to convince the programs to generate what
>your terminal program is expecting.  But there are a lot of programs
>to convince (including gcc!).
>
>On Fedora Core 5, changing the definition of LANG in
>/etc/sysconfig/i18n should do the trick (but I'm not sure that it
>does).
>
>I have a heck of a time with this, even when I start xterm like this:
>  LANG=en_CA xterm -lc
>I lose xterms when I display some SPAM subject lines with Chinese in
>them.  I'm generally doing this through ssh from a FC5 system to a
>RHL7.0 system, so there may be some kind of impedance mismatch in
>their handling of $LANG.  The newest devolutions of xterm confuse
>things with a helper program called "luit".
>--
>The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 23:11:52 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:11:52 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060611213534.GA26414-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <l.lsxvkz@yqlo.frqa.aa>



On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Walter Dnes wrote:

>  This sounds like something that's probably been done for other
> reasons.  In Gentoo linux, source tarballs and patches are downloaded to
> /usr/portage/distfiles.  And they accumulate there.  I prefer not to
> blow them all away immediately.  There are often 1-line patches later on
> that assume the presence of the original umpteen megabyte tarball.  If
> it's not there, it has to be downloaded again, and the 1-line patch
> applied to it.  I think that the best approach would be to delete files
> after 30 days or so.
>
>  So is thare a generic "aging out" script anywhere?

find ... -atime -DD -exec rm {} \;  (man find)

Peter
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From skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 11 23:24:33 2006
From: skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Srinivasan Krishnan)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:24:33 -0400
Subject: Job posting
Message-ID: <1150068273.5305.6.camel@ambipapa>

Farematrix Inc. has an opening for a web developer.  Required skills are
HTML, Javascript, CSS, Linux, Apache, Perl and MySQL.  C and C++ would
be an asset, but are not essential.

If interested, please reply to webdev-iZsVJbH0xwR8TSXCB8ZpEw at public.gmane.org

Thanks,

Krishnan




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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 03:36:45 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:36:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Can We Make OSes Reliable and Secure
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606102116n43e7e920gf4b7e38f6f1000c7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <447FB76C.1050006@utoronto.ca>  <1e55af990606020854u3031e953s261469e79dff65e@mail.gmail.com>
  <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021322380.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net> 
 <20060602180333.GC23745@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606021631000.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
  <20060605142335.GA30185@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> 
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606061731540.3313@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <d6d6637f0606102116n43e7e920gf4b7e38f6f1000c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606112321150.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Christopher Browne wrote:

> There are others, but little that's not pretty much curiosity.

OS-9 and QNX certainly aren't curiosities.  There has definately been lack 
of movement in the microkernel world up to this point (at least as far as 
production ready OSes go).  I don't think it is a particularly good basis 
for assuming there will not be movement in the microkernel world in the 
future.

>> That's part of the conceptual side which many OSes have taken on board (as
>> per my earlier posts).
>> 
>> There is cruft in *nix userspace.  Why exactly is the command to send a
>> signal to a process called "kill"? The name is historical but is defined
>> in POSIX now.  This one was highlighted to me just recently when I was
>> providing training on the shell and command line tools.
>
> That "kill" is poorly named is in no way a meaningful argument in
> favor of using a microkernel.  Similarly, the fact that people get
> confused as to why Unix often uses such directories as /bin, /sbin
> /usr/sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/ucb to store differing programs is not a
> reason for switching to a microkernel.

Not did I ever asser it was :)  The conversation had wandered by this 
point.  If you go back you'll see I was pointing out that many unix 
concepts have been taken into more recent apps but the cruft had been left 
out.  I was giving examples of the cruft.  This applies equally well to 
microkernels and monolithic kernels.

> In Hurd, the notion of having all sorts of services managed as daemons
> separate from any central "kernel" is certainly an interesting one.
> In principle, that ought to allow restarting all sorts of services
> without needing to reboot.
>
> Of course, in practice, the Linux NFS server moved from a separate
> server into the kernel because this made it significantly faster.

True, but both are available.  Not surprisingly I use the user space nfsd 
if I can.

>> A well defined MK system would probably even put constraints on how
>> rapidly messages could be sent over the protocol to prevent an internal
>> DoS.
>
> The Dragonfly BSD folk are trying to head down this sort of road,
> using message passing (with choice of async/sync approaches).  Again,
> this is a monolithic kernel; there is little that people consider
> doing on microkernels that don't seem to benefit monolithic kernels...

That makes sense - most of the concepts should transfer fairly well, 
especially among disciplined monolithic kernel developers.

Discipline is a bit part of the problem IMHO.  Undisciplined microkernel 
developers may well discover their new module simply doesn't work.

Undisciplined monolithic kernel developers can touch enough bits of the 
kernel to make it work.  Discipline in this context can be imposed from 
above.

I ran across a great example recently.  Desiring proper per-user resource 
limits in the kernel I was reading up on recent efforts in that area. 
One developer was complaining about kernel developers within the Linux 
kernel avoiding code reuse and taking key resource allocation algorithms 
and planting them right within their own code.  Sometimes they are changed 
a little.  Anyone wanting to do good per-user resource management must 
consider all of the areas where resources are being allocated rather than 
one tightly defined area.

I think the discussion is starting to around in circles (inevitable in any 
thread this long).  I've said my piece and predict microkernels will 
become main stream in the future as their advantages outweight their 
disadvantages.  Only time will really tell.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 09:51:00 2006
From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:51:00 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060611213534.GA26414-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>; from waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org on Sun, Jun 11, 2006 at 17:35:34 -0400
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost>

On Sun Jun 11,2006 05:35:34 PM Walter Dnes wrote:
> In Gentoo linux, source tarballs and patches are
> downloaded to /usr/portage/distfiles.
> And they accumulate there.

Are you aware of the gentoo eclean command (part of gentoolkit, I 
believe)? This allows you to delete distfiles and packages for 
anything that isn't currently installed.


-- 
** Scott Allen   scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org **
**     Toronto, Ontario, Canada     **
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 15:06:29 2006
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:06:29 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060611213534.GA26414-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <f9870c010606120806k65a5c831i7d22dac9415c9f16@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/11/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>   This sounds like something that's probably been done for other
> reasons.  In Gentoo linux, source tarballs and patches are downloaded to
> /usr/portage/distfiles.  And they accumulate there.  I prefer not to
> blow them all away immediately.  There are often 1-line patches later on
> that assume the presence of the original umpteen megabyte tarball.  If
> it's not there, it has to be downloaded again, and the 1-line patch
> applied to it.  I think that the best approach would be to delete files
> after 30 days or so.
>
>   So is thare a generic "aging out" script anywhere?


Many years ago, I spent a little time writing a Perl script to clear the
/tmp directory of files that I was creating .. only to discover that someone
else had already encountered that problem and solved it. A long time ago. In
this case, tmpwatch is your friend.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
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From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 14:48:05 2006
From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:05 -0400
Subject: LVM: pvmove weird behaviour... is it normal?
Message-ID: <b7a3fe4a0606120748j57c36adbi401cddefd67ec5c0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.

I'm having what I think is some trouble with Linux LVM, and wanted to
see if anyone else has experienced the same sort of thing.

Background:  My machine is running Fedora Core 5, with all the latest
fixes.  System has a 20Gb IDE disk in it, with /boot as a normal
primary partition, and all the rest (/, /usr, swap, /tmp, /home) in
LVM.  I want to migrate to a new 40Gb disk.

My steps are as follows:

1. Add disk to system (as hdb)
2. Partition hda the same as hdb
3. Copy contents of /dev/hda1 to /dev/hdb1 (this is /boot)
4. Run pvcreate on /dev/hdb2 to make it a PV, and add it to the volume group
5. Run "pvmove" to migrate PEs from hda2 to hdb2
6. Go have some breakfast while it runs
7. Put GRUB in MBR on /dev/hdb
8. Shutdown, remove hda, make hdb hda, and boot up

So when I do this, everything goes well until step 5.  When I run the
pvmove command (the exact command is "pvmove -v -b /dev/hda2
/dev/hdb2) , it looks like it should be working, but nothing happens.
I expect to see some disk activity as things are being moved, but the
drive light is off.  After about 1 minute, the system becomes
unresponsive.  When I run any command, it just hangs.  The system
hasn't crashed as far as I can tell, but I cannot CTRL-C, I cannot ssh
in, nor can I switch to any other virtual consoles.

Eventually I gave up and just hit the reset button.  The system
reboots, mounts the filesystems, then tries to activate swap and hangs
up.  Booting in single user mode hangs at the command prompt in a
similar fashion.  Again, no drive activity is going on to speak of.

Finally, booting into emergency single user gives me a useable prompt.
 I can mount all the filesystems up, but when I try and run pvmove to
look at status, again, it hangs.

Has anyone else experienced this behaviour?  Is this normal for moving
PEs from one disk to another?  Something tells me that it is not.  I
had similar issues doing a similar migration on my MythTV box, but
after the initial command hang, after I rebooted, the pvmove completed
successfully.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

pm

-- 
Paul Mora
email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 16:47:17 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:47:17 -0400
Subject: LVM: pvmove weird behaviour... is it normal?
In-Reply-To: <b7a3fe4a0606120748j57c36adbi401cddefd67ec5c0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b7a3fe4a0606120748j57c36adbi401cddefd67ec5c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060612164717.GF559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 10:48:05AM -0400, Paul Mora wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I'm having what I think is some trouble with Linux LVM, and wanted to
> see if anyone else has experienced the same sort of thing.
> 
> Background:  My machine is running Fedora Core 5, with all the latest
> fixes.  System has a 20Gb IDE disk in it, with /boot as a normal
> primary partition, and all the rest (/, /usr, swap, /tmp, /home) in
> LVM.  I want to migrate to a new 40Gb disk.
> 
> My steps are as follows:
> 
> 1. Add disk to system (as hdb)
> 2. Partition hda the same as hdb
> 3. Copy contents of /dev/hda1 to /dev/hdb1 (this is /boot)
> 4. Run pvcreate on /dev/hdb2 to make it a PV, and add it to the volume group
> 5. Run "pvmove" to migrate PEs from hda2 to hdb2
> 6. Go have some breakfast while it runs
> 7. Put GRUB in MBR on /dev/hdb
> 8. Shutdown, remove hda, make hdb hda, and boot up
> 
> So when I do this, everything goes well until step 5.  When I run the
> pvmove command (the exact command is "pvmove -v -b /dev/hda2
> /dev/hdb2) , it looks like it should be working, but nothing happens.
> I expect to see some disk activity as things are being moved, but the
> drive light is off.  After about 1 minute, the system becomes
> unresponsive.  When I run any command, it just hangs.  The system
> hasn't crashed as far as I can tell, but I cannot CTRL-C, I cannot ssh
> in, nor can I switch to any other virtual consoles.
> 
> Eventually I gave up and just hit the reset button.  The system
> reboots, mounts the filesystems, then tries to activate swap and hangs
> up.  Booting in single user mode hangs at the command prompt in a
> similar fashion.  Again, no drive activity is going on to speak of.
> 
> Finally, booting into emergency single user gives me a useable prompt.
> I can mount all the filesystems up, but when I try and run pvmove to
> look at status, again, it hangs.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this behaviour?  Is this normal for moving
> PEs from one disk to another?  Something tells me that it is not.  I
> had similar issues doing a similar migration on my MythTV box, but
> after the initial command hang, after I rebooted, the pvmove completed
> successfully.
> 
> Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

If a pvmove fails, you have to restore the LVM to a known good config
before pvmove will run again it seems.  I managed to botch this myself a
while ago.  The lvmrestore command allowed me to restore to a backed up
config (I copied the backup config that looked like it was from before
the pvmove in place, and ran the restore command).  I had to modify the
lvm script to NOT active any LVMs at boot, but to have the tools run
directly on the block devices.  Until then, nothing worked.  After the
restore, I put it back, my LVMs came back up, and the next pvmove
command worked perfectly first time without making the system slow an
unresponsive or anything.  I still don't know what went wrong the first
time, other than perhaps doing it while the raid was still syncing the
new raid1 volume was the problem.  My second attempt I moved one LV at a
time off the old PV rather than moving everything.

Len Sorensen
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From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 17:25:11 2006
From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:25:11 -0400
Subject: LVM: pvmove weird behaviour... is it normal?
In-Reply-To: <20060612164717.GF559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <b7a3fe4a0606120748j57c36adbi401cddefd67ec5c0@mail.gmail.com> <20060612164717.GF559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <200606121325.11306.jason@detachednetworks.ca>

On Monday 12 June 2006 12:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> If a pvmove fails, you have to restore the LVM to a known good config
> before pvmove will run again it seems. ?I managed to botch this myself a
> while ago. ?The lvmrestore command allowed me to restore to a backed up
> config (I copied the backup config that looked like it was from before
> the pvmove in place, and ran the restore command). ?I had to modify the
> lvm script to NOT active any LVMs at boot, but to have the tools run
> directly on the block devices. ?Until then, nothing worked. ?After the
> restore, I put it back, my LVMs came back up, and the next pvmove
> command worked perfectly first time without making the system slow an
> unresponsive or anything. ?I still don't know what went wrong the first
> time, other than perhaps doing it while the raid was still syncing the
> new raid1 volume was the problem. ?My second attempt I moved one LV at a
> time off the old PV rather than moving everything.

In this situation, the CentOS Live CD can be extremely useful. 
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=03432#0

It has an LVM graphical tool that greatly eases LVM volume manipulation.

From the release announcement, it also has:

--snip--

Read / write access to XFS, JFS, ext3, ext2, NTFS, reiserfs.
LVM2 graphical tool
GNU Parted <http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/> CLI partition tool
QtParted <http://qtparted.sourceforge.net/> GUI partition tool
PartImage <http://www.partimage.org/> partition imager
EVMS <http://evms.sourceforge.net/> Enterprise volume management
smb4K <http://smb4k.berlios.de/> GUI SMB tool
ClamAV <http://www.clamav.net/> for virus scanning
chkrootkit <http://www.chkrootkit.org/> for finding potential root kits
MemTest86+ <http://www.memtest.org/> memory tester
System Log Viewer

--snip--


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Director of Networking, Operations and Systems
Detached Networks
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 20:00:08 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:00:08 -0400
Subject: hardware inventory
Message-ID: <20060612200008.GC14535@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

What does everyone use to keep hardware inventory?  Some threads on
Slashdot mentioned:
http://ocsinventory.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=Features
and
http://irm.stackworks.net/?q=node/12

Any comments or other recommendations?


-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 10 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 12 20:12:58 2006
From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:12:58 -0400
Subject: LVM: pvmove weird behaviour... is it normal?
In-Reply-To: <20060612164717.GF559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <b7a3fe4a0606120748j57c36adbi401cddefd67ec5c0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060612164717.GF559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <b7a3fe4a0606121312o7d9d5e07od28c0429b30550c1@mail.gmail.com>

Hello.

Thanks to those people that replied to my note.  I got things working;
here's what I did.

1. Booted from the FC5 DVD into rescue mode.  Elected NOT to mount any
filesystems.
2. Ran "pvmove --abort"
3. Reboot, select single user mode at the GRUB prompt.

That got me back up without the unresponsive hang.  I then tried doing
pvmove but by individual LVs (like Len suggested above), and that
worked like a charm.  When I only had 2 LVs left, I tried the "move
everything" pvmove, and it hung again.  I repeated the above
procedures, then migrated the LVs individually.

Once the allocated PEs were all off the drive, I removed it from the
VG using vgreduce.  Then I shut down the machine, removed the old
drive, put the new one as hda (master IDE on primary controller), and
booted from the FC5 DVD in rescue.  The partitions were all mounted
properly, then did the "chroot /mnt/sysimage", and "grub-install
/dev/hda".  A reboot later, and the machine was back up and running.

Weird how the pvmove doesn't deal with a mass move very well; it seems
to like doing it by individual LVs... I wonder why...

pm
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 02:33:14 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 22:33:14 -0400
Subject: Google earth beta4 available for linux
Message-ID: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca>

http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html

Haven't tried it, is it wine based like picassa or is it a proper port?

Jamon
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 04:48:30 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 00:48:30 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org> <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost>
Message-ID: <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org>

On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 05:51:00AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote

> Are you aware of the gentoo eclean command (part of gentoolkit, I 
> believe)? This allows you to delete distfiles and packages for 
> anything that isn't currently installed.

  As I tried to point out in the original posting, you can have
ooga-booga version x.y.z as an umpteen megabyte tarball.  Version
x.y.z.1 is the same tarball with a 1-line patch.  Version x.y.z.2 is
the same tarball with another patch.  Version x.y.z.3 is the same
tarball with yet another patch.

  Does eclean auto-magically transfer ownership of the tarball to the
latest installed version?  If so, it would be ideal for my needs.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 05:15:30 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:15:30 -0400
Subject: Teedledee and Tweedledum
Message-ID: <20060613051530.GB30107@waltdnes.org>

  Before anyone asks what relavance the following has to this list, let
me point out that CRIA's American counterparts were supportive and
lobbying for Fritz Hollings' SSSCA which, amongst other things, would've
outlawed linux as we know it, not to mention any computers capable of
running linux as we know it.  Be very afraid of these people.

  Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

  In http://michaelgeist.ca/component/option,com_content/task,view/id,1289/Itemid,85/nsub,/
Michael Geist mentioned the similarities between the list of
contributors to former Liberal heritage minister Bulte, and her CPC
counterpart, Bev Oda.  The way things are going on at the top, you'd
never know that Canadians had thrown out the Liberals in revulsion to
their corruption.  Some snippets from...

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1292

> At 10:01 in the morning of February 6, 2006, at the precise moment
> that a new Conservative cabinet was being sworn into office at
> Rideau Hall, David Dyer, a senior consultant with the Capital Hill
> Group and a registered lobbyist for the Canadian Recording Industry
> Association, sent an email to Patricia Neri, the Director General
> of Canadian Heritage's Copyright Policy Branch.
> 
> The email included a suggested outline for a March 2nd event focused
> on copyright reform.  It envisioned a meeting with the Canadian
> Heritage Deputy Minister Judith LaRoque, two hours of presentations
> from speakers sympathetic to CRIA's position, lunch with deputy
> ministers from Heritage, Industry, and International Trade, and a
> private meeting with the soon-to-named Minister of Canadian Heritage.
> 
> One month later, virtually the identical scenario played itself out
> in Canadian Heritage's Gatineau offices and in the private dining
> room of a swank nearby restaurant.

  CRIA is the so-called "Canadian" Recording Industry Association.  Its
board is composed of Graham Henderson and one representative from each
of the four largest multinational recording industry conglomerates.  All
independant Canadian labels have withdrawn from that body in disgust.

  How many of you have sent an email to the government asking for a
meeting with specific ministers and deputy ministers?  Those of you
who've done so *AND HAD THE REQUEST FULFILLED* please raise your
hands... I thought so.  But wait, it getters better/worse...

> In the weeks following the Dyer email, CRIA worked closely with
> Canadian Heritage to develop the copyright policy event.  An invitation,
> drafted with CRIA's assistance, was extended to seven different
> government departments and agencies.  The invitation set the stage for
> the reform process by stating that "Canada's copyright law has been
> criticized by the Supreme Court and a range of stakeholders, for not
> having kept up with the challenges posed by new technologies." This
> characterization is subject to challenge since the Supreme Court of
> Canada has in fact repeatedly focused on the need for a balanced
> approach to copyright reform, one that recognizes the interests and
> rights of both creators and users.

  So not only did CRIA snap their fingers, and the government jumped,
but CRIA also *HELPED DRAFT THE INVITATIONS* and used the invitations as
platforms for their propaganda.  Just when you think things can't get
any sleazier...

> Dyer also warned that CRIA would be coming to Ottawa with a financial
> request.  The music lobby group was planning a study on the Canadian
> music industry and was seeking $50,000 in funding from Canadian
> Heritage to help support the project.

  Ex-bleeping-scuse me... four multi-billion-dollar multi-nationals want
a government grant to pay for expenses they incur in lobbying the
Canadian government ?!?!?!?!

  It's hard enough for the average citizen to counter the lobby efforts
of multi-billion-dollar multi-nationals.  But when the foreign companies
get *FREE LOBBYING* (contents of the invitation to the meeting) and
*THEIR LOBBYING EXPENSES ARE PAID FOR BY THE TAXPAYER*, guess who ends
up running the country.  Hint, it ain't you and me.  Another point to
consider is any reporting requirements and spending limitations for
lobbyists.  Because the CRIA propaganda blast was on an invitation from
one arm of government to another arm of government, I doubt that the
cost of printing that propaganda will show up in any lobbyists' spending
disclosures.  Ditto for the $50,000 grant, which won't officially be
lobbyists' money that they're spending.

  What I'm afraid of is a Canadian SSSCA.  It can happen.  It will
happen if you don't write your MP.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 10:13:55 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:13:55 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
Message-ID: <448E57A3.22233.D5E8E53@pking123.sympatico.ca>

I was just wondering if anyone who is on Sympatico heard about them using a new 
news-hosting service. They have bandwidth caps apparently, at 1GB. Their new news 
host is at

http://bell.newshosting.com/bell/home.php

Has anyone tried this serivce? Does it suck as much as the original Sympatico 
service did? 

Paul King

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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 10:49:30 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:49:30 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
Message-ID: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>

OK, so I have tried the free Sympatico-based NewsHosting service. For that you 
get 1GB of free USENET traffic. 

It does suck as much as I suspected. It won't accept the username and password it 
gave me (which I entered on Agent), and PAN is unresponsive. I check the FAQ, and 
it says it recommends Outlook Express as the news agent.

Looks like they want to scare away customers.

Paul King

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From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 11:23:43 2006
From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:23:43 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060613044830.GA30107-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>; from waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org on Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 00:48:30 -0400
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org> <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost> <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost>

On Tue Jun 13,2006 12:48:30 AM Walter Dnes wrote:
> Does eclean auto-magically transfer ownership of the tarball
> to the latest installed version?  If so, it would be ideal
> for my needs.

With the -d switch, I believe eclean will keep only the files that 
would be required to re-build the versions of the packages that you 
currently have installed. I think, therefore, the answer is yes.

Anyway, you could try it after confirming that the distfiles for at 
least one package are in the state that you describe. If you use the 
-p (pretend) switch, it will show you what it would have deleted, but 
not actually perform the action.
  
-- 
** Scott Allen   scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org **
**     Toronto, Ontario, Canada     **
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From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 11:43:09 2006
From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:43:09 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
In-Reply-To: <448E57A3.22233.D5E8E53-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>; from pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 06:13:55 -0400
References: <448E57A3.22233.D5E8E53@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost>

On Tue Jun 13,2006 06:13:55 AM Paul King wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone who is on Sympatico heard about
> them using a new news-hosting service.

I'll probably try it soon since I used to use the old server.

> Does it suck as much as the original Sympatico service did?

What sucked about it? I never had a problem. However, I just pull all 
the latest articles, daily, from the groups I read, to a local spool. 
I then read offline when I have the time.


-- 
** Scott Allen   scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org **
**     Toronto, Ontario, Canada     **
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 12:12:34 2006
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:12:34 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <200606130812.34379.glayng@sympatico.ca>

Recommends Outbreak Express?  Once again, Sympatico shows just how much 
they've been partaking of Micro$oft's Kool-Aide.

It frustrates me on those few times when I call them how frequently (like, 
every other sentence) they say, "We don't support Linux."  I know already.  
I'm not asking them to support Linux; I'm asking them to support me.

On June 13, 2006 06:49, Paul King wrote:
> OK, so I have tried the free Sympatico-based NewsHosting service. For that
> you get 1GB of free USENET traffic.
>
> It does suck as much as I suspected. It won't accept the username and
> password it gave me (which I entered on Agent), and PAN is unresponsive. I
> check the FAQ, and it says it recommends Outlook Express as the news agent.
>
> Looks like they want to scare away customers.
>
> Paul King
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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-- 
there's no place like 127.0.0.1
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 12:50:11 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:50:11 -0400
Subject: Google earth beta4 available for linux
In-Reply-To: <448E23EA.3040703-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 10:33:14PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html
> 
> Haven't tried it, is it wine based like picassa or is it a proper port?

Almost certainly wine based again.  Wine already ran google earth
reasonably well (it had a few issues last I tried).  And if it is like
picassa, they get to use a single binary for both.

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 13:12:28 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:12:28 -0400
Subject: Google earth beta4 available for linux
In-Reply-To: <20060613125011.GG559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca> <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 08:50:11AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Almost certainly wine based again.  Wine already ran google earth
> reasonably well (it had a few issues last I tried).  And if it is like
> picassa, they get to use a single binary for both.

Seems to be lacking a lot to be desired.  No .deb for example.  Just a
@#$#$ .bin

On the other hand it appears to actually be native linux.  Uses libjpeg,
libmng, opengl libs, native libc threads, etc.

Len Sorensen
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From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 13:19:52 2006
From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Tom Watts)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:19:52 -0400
Subject: Google earth beta4 available for linux
In-Reply-To: <448E23EA.3040703-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <448EBB78.80200@uoguelph.ca>



Jamon Camisso wrote:
> http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html
> 
> Haven't tried it, is it wine based like picassa or is it a proper port?
> 
> Jamon

http://picasa.google.com/linux/faq.html#25

Hopefully if the response to a none-wine port is good, more apps 
will be native.

-Tom
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From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 13:46:58 2006
From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:46:58 +1000
Subject: Google earth beta4 available for linux
In-Reply-To: <20060613131228.GH559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca>
	 <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <1150206418.9166.2.camel@procyon.operationaldynamics.com>

On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 09:12 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On the other hand it appears to actually be native linux.  Uses libjpeg,
> libmng, opengl libs, native libc threads, etc.

>From a post to SLUG by Ben Buxton:

        "Actually, GE has been ported natively rather than using wine.
        The win32 version used QT and other cross platform libraries, so
        it made sense to use those natively in linux too.
        
        The guy in charge of porting it isn't a big wine fan and used to
        work for Loki who made native linux ports of games."

Original message in thread at:
http://lists.slug.org.au/archives/slug/2006/06/msg00367.html

Cheers,

AfC
Sydney

-- 
Andrew Frederick Cowie
Managing Director

Toronto:
   (416) 848 6072

http://www.operationaldynamics.com/
Management Consultants specializing in strategy,
organizational architecture, procedures to survive
change, and performance hardening for the people
and systems behind the mission critical enterprise.

Sydney  New York  Toronto  London

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From cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 14:24:30 2006
From: cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Charly Baker)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:24:30 -0400
Subject: 4 sisters
Message-ID: <200606131024.30754.cmb@fivefortyfour.com>

Has anyone found a video of the four sisters demolition in a non-proprietory 
format?

It seems most of the local news sites are married to Gates.

Charly Baker
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From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 14:40:39 2006
From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:40:39 -0400
Subject: 4 sisters
In-Reply-To: <200606131024.30754.cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606131024.30754.cmb@fivefortyfour.com>
Message-ID: <1150209639.5118.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5957296610604271764&q=four
+sisters


On Tue, 2006-13-06 at 10:24 -0400, Charly Baker wrote:
> Has anyone found a video of the four sisters demolition in a non-proprietory 
> format?
> 
> It seems most of the local news sites are married to Gates.
> 
> Charly Baker
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 14:59:24 2006
From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:59:24 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <200606130812.34379.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
	 <200606130812.34379.glayng@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <b7a3fe4a0606130759o6d84019o1a06f49407a1c382@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/13/06, Gary Layng <glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> It frustrates me on those few times when I call them how frequently (like,
> every other sentence) they say, "We don't support Linux."  I know already.
> I'm not asking them to support Linux; I'm asking them to support me.

You've got to tell them what they want to hear, and filter as
required.  When they say "Did you reboot your Windows box?" you say
"Yes, I did."  Don't tell them you're running Linux, unless you want
to hear the "Sorry, unsupported" line and get a nice hang up.

pm

-- 
Paul Mora
email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 15:33:11 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:33:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Projector required
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

Hi all.  The TLUG meeting is tonight[1].  We need a projector to be 
brought along.  Is anyone able to bring one this evening?[2].

[1] The front page of www.gtalug.org says June 11.  I can't edit that. 
The meeting announcement is correct.

[2] Oh man if the last 7 days had not been totally crazy I might have 
thought to mention this yesterday or even the day before.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 15:50:16 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:50:16 -0400
Subject: hardware inventory
In-Reply-To: <20060612200008.GC14535-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060612200008.GC14535@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606130850u6d7ebfa2v12b4d5b9f9f9dba7@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/12/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> What does everyone use to keep hardware inventory?
>
> Any comments or other recommendations?

Although I never used the feature, I saw it in remote anything [1].

I rather like this application, although they _still_ don't have a
Linux version (which was supposed to be out in 2001 when I last
chatted with them.. heh).


[1] http://remote-anything.com/
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 16:31:43 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:31:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Projector required
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131231270.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Robert Brockway wrote:

> Hi all.  The TLUG meeting is tonight[1].  We need a projector to be brought 
> along.  Is anyone able to bring one this evening?[2].

We may have a projector related emergency :(

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 16:52:55 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:52:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Projector required
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131231270.11861-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131231270.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131251100.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Robert Brockway wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Robert Brockway wrote:
>
>> Hi all.  The TLUG meeting is tonight[1].  We need a projector to be brought 
>> along.  Is anyone able to bring one this evening?[2].
>
> We may have a projector related emergency :(

I've been unable to confirm a projector for tonight.  If anyone could 
bring one it'd really get us out of a bind.  If one is coming please feel 
free to follow-up to this post.

Sorry about this everyone.  I've spoken to Drew and we have a backup plan 
to keep everyone entertained tonight if a projector cannot be located and 
if it causes a major problem.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 17:02:50 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:02:50 -0400
Subject: Projector required
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606131002j526d98el47d1bfedea644910@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/13/06, Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi all.  The TLUG meeting is tonight[1].  We need a projector to be
> brought along.  Is anyone able to bring one this evening?[2].

I do not own a projector, and I do not know anything about TLUG's
funding situation, but I am just curious: Are there places which rent
out projectors for a small fee? What if TLUG were to rent a projector?
Or perhaps some place that normally rents them would lend one for free
as a way of sponsoring TLUG?

Please CC me on all replies.
Regards,
Jason
-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
Specializing in Linux: Red Hat AS / ES, Debian, and others. We do Windows too.
Serving homes and companies globally via remote access tools. Fair flat rates.
Just send a note, phone 416-668-1491, or call Skype ID jasonspiro.
--
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 17:27:25 2006
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:27:25 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
In-Reply-To: <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost>
References: <448E57A3.22233.D5E8E53@pking123.sympatico.ca> <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP035EC3809FB9AAE9128AD2EA8C0@CEZ.ICE>

Scott Allen wrote:
> On Tue Jun 13,2006 06:13:55 AM Paul King wrote:
>> I was just wondering if anyone who is on Sympatico heard about
>> them using a new news-hosting service. 
[ ... ]
>> Does it suck as much as the original Sympatico service did?
> What sucked about it? I never had a problem. However, I just pull all 
> the latest articles, daily, from the groups I read, to a local spool. I 
> then read offline when I have the time.

"Sucked" is kind of extreme.  Completeness was spotty, both 
for posts and groups (it didn't carry comp.risks, for 
example.)  Reading on-line you could find the server going 
cataleptic for the odd few minutes, every once in a while.

Worst is the new basic service doesn't allow posting.  I 
have an email in asking what the extended service costs, 
before I click "activate", but I've got no answer yet.

	Cheers,        Mel.

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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 19:14:52 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:14:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <200606130812.34379.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
 <200606130812.34379.glayng@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606131510360.955@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: Gary Layng <glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org>

| Recommends Outbreak Express?  Once again, Sympatico shows just how much 
| they've been partaking of Micro$oft's Kool-Aide.
| 
| It frustrates me on those few times when I call them how frequently (like, 
| every other sentence) they say, "We don't support Linux."  I know already.  
| I'm not asking them to support Linux; I'm asking them to support me.

Yeah.  They're just like Toronto Hydro.  Every time I phone them about
a power failure, they remind me that they only support Sony appliances.

I sure wish regulatory agencies realized that monopolies should be
prevented from extending tentacles vertically.
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 20:36:13 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 20:36:13 +0000
Subject: Projector required
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606131002j526d98el47d1bfedea644910-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
	 <c241693f0606131002j526d98el47d1bfedea644910@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606131336r6cefc45eu31f0ffed05fa6de0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/13/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/13/06, Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Hi all.  The TLUG meeting is tonight[1].  We need a projector to be
> > brought along.  Is anyone able to bring one this evening?[2].
>
> I do not own a projector, and I do not know anything about TLUG's
> funding situation, but I am just curious: Are there places which rent
> out projectors for a small fee? What if TLUG were to rent a projector?
> Or perhaps some place that normally rents them would lend one for free
> as a way of sponsoring TLUG?

I have usually been able to borrow one from the office; being "on
call" this week meant I needed some backup (in case my phone goes off,
and I disappear in the middle of the meeting).  I've been able to find
that, so we do have a projector for today.

In the larger situation, there's always a bit of a challenge in terms
of how the projector will get from [some place where it was] to
[wherever it is to be used] and back.

If GTALUG owned a projector, that would change the issues a little
less than people might imagine it would.

There would be an "up side"; a modern projector would both offer
better resolution and smaller size/better portability than the
monstrosity I have been periodically carting around.  (Next time I
present, I will NOT be carting both a laptop and the projector around
on foot...  That part was distinctly unpleasant.)

But there would still be the issue of getting it, on a monthly basis,
from whereever it gets stowed to the meeting...

In any case, there will be a projector unless some kind of disaster
strikes in the next hour...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 21:33:27 2006
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:33:27 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <b7a3fe4a0606130759o6d84019o1a06f49407a1c382-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca> <200606130812.34379.glayng@sympatico.ca> <b7a3fe4a0606130759o6d84019o1a06f49407a1c382@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606131733.30276.glayng@sympatico.ca>

I've never had them hang up on me; I have had to filter out their incessant 
reminder.  After we successfully resolved the issue, I've assured them, "For 
someone who doesn't support Linux, you just did a pretty good job of 
supporting Linux!"

^_^

On June 13, 2006 10:59, Paul Mora wrote:
> On 6/13/06, Gary Layng <glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > It frustrates me on those few times when I call them how frequently
> > (like, every other sentence) they say, "We don't support Linux."  I know
> > already. I'm not asking them to support Linux; I'm asking them to support
> > me.
>
> You've got to tell them what they want to hear, and filter as
> required.  When they say "Did you reboot your Windows box?" you say
> "Yes, I did."  Don't tell them you're running Linux, unless you want
> to hear the "Sorry, unsupported" line and get a nice hang up.
>
> pm

-- 
there's no place like 127.0.0.1
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 23:29:26 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:29:26 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
In-Reply-To: <448EF57D.6090603-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost>
Message-ID: <448F1216.15762.5E76C7@pking123.sympatico.ca>

On 13 Jun 2006 at 13:27, Mel Wilson spaketh these wourdes:

> Scott Allen wrote:
> > On Tue Jun 13,2006 06:13:55 AM Paul King wrote:
> >> I was just wondering if anyone who is on Sympatico heard about
> >> them using a new news-hosting service. 
> [ ... ]
> >> Does it suck as much as the original Sympatico service did?
> > What sucked about it? I never had a problem. However, I just pull all 
> > the latest articles, daily, from the groups I read, to a local spool. I 
> > then read offline when I have the time.
> 
> "Sucked" is kind of extreme.  Completeness was spotty, both 

I think it is entirely appropriate. For the 4-part FAQ I posted, completeness 
was 100% lousy, and the newsgroup was spam-riddled, comparing with a German 
freenet server I used to use out of desparation (until it became a commercial 
service), there was no attempt to so much as lift a finger to manage the 
USENET server. The newsgroup sympatico.highspeed was full of people who 
complained and equally full of Sympatico Tech Support people who evaded 
questions and obfuscated what everyone could obviously see was the case: that
Sympatico had no intention of managing USENET, and didn't care what anyone 
thought.

Ever post an article to news.answers? Now, you can't just do it off the bat, 
because it is moderated by people at rtfm.mit.edu. FAQs posted to news.answers 
span all newsgroups, and to get your FAQ posted to news.answers, it has to be 
approved at rtfm. I got mine approved at rtfm. 

FAQs approved at rtfm, even multipart ones, would meet or exceed standards set by 
any USENET site. Most USENET site admins would find it unthinkable to NOT include 
the collection of FAQs posted to news.answers. However, Sympatico seems to think 
that omitting several parts of multipart TEXT postings to news.answers is an OK 
thing to do. By extension then, they also get omitted when posting them to the 
newsgroups they were written for. Of the four parts of my FAQ I have written only 
one ever makes it through to Sympatico -- the part where I list the changes and 
additions. That is, the entire rest of the FAQ -- or really, the FAQ itself -- is 
missing. When I logged on to the German freenet server, they are all there.

I have given up complaining to them, and I have been told they were "looking into 
it". They have been telling everyone that ever since they got into the business 
over 10 years ago. In retrospect, they were probably saying that because they 
were too polite to tell their customers to stop hounding them.

> for posts and groups (it didn't carry comp.risks, for 
> example.)  Reading on-line you could find the server going 
> cataleptic for the odd few minutes, every once in a while.
> 

All USENET servers will miss entire newsgroups (nobody wants to carry groups that 
no one reads), and they will add them if you ask. But if you ever comapred 
Sympatico with even the cheapest server out there (such as  the Free servers I 
used), Sympatico's completion WITHIN newsgroups was pathetic even compared with a 
free server! Not only would multipart posts be missing but scores of single-posts 
also. In its place was a huge amount of spam that were nearly absent on the 
freenet server. This can only be partially explained off in terms of the nature 
of message propagation in a USENET system. But I have noticed that this is a 
problem not only for sci.bio.food-science (my NG), but really all established 
newsgroups in the "Big 7" that I have seen.

> Worst is the new basic service doesn't allow posting.  I 
> have an email in asking what the extended service costs, 
> before I click "activate", but I've got no answer yet.

Just check the bell newshosting site:
   https://controlpanel.newshosting.com/newssignup/signup/?r=91809
for a price structure.

Warning: the only news reader they recommend is Outlook Express. The free service 
failed on my copies of Agent and PAN.  

Regards 

Paul King

> 
> 	Cheers,        Mel.
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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> 
> __________ NOD32 1.1597 (20060613) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 


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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 23:29:26 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:29:26 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
In-Reply-To: <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost>
References: <448E57A3.22233.D5E8E53@pking123.sympatico.ca>; from pking123@sympatico.ca on Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 06:13:55 -0400
Message-ID: <448F1216.1623.5E7703@pking123.sympatico.ca>

On 13 Jun 2006 at 7:43, Scott Allen spaketh these wourdes:

> On Tue Jun 13,2006 06:13:55 AM Paul King wrote:
> > I was just wondering if anyone who is on Sympatico heard about
> > them using a new news-hosting service.
> 
> I'll probably try it soon since I used to use the old server.
> 
> > Does it suck as much as the original Sympatico service did?
> 
> What sucked about it? I never had a problem. However, I just pull all 
> the latest articles, daily, from the groups I read, to a local spool. 
> I then read offline when I have the time.

What sucked? Puh-lenty. For one thing, Sympatico was notoriously bad 
at retaining both single and multipart postings. And, I don't mean just 
binary. I mean posts of literally everything - text, and binary. The 
numbers of posts that arrive at Sympatico themselves were incomplete 
compared even with free servers, and an abnormally high ratio of spam 
(this was also true for the Big 7), compared with free servers. In 
other words, there was utterly and absoutely no attempt to manage 
usenet in any way, shape or form. 

I say this with some passion, since I maintain a 4-part FAQ for sci.bio.food-
science. On Sympatico, only one part shows up.

Paul King

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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 23:29:26 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:29:26 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <200606130812.34379.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <448F1216.2599.5E7681@pking123.sympatico.ca>

On 13 Jun 2006 at 8:12, Gary Layng spaketh these wourdes:

> Recommends Outbreak Express?  

We have to think of a better nickname than that. "outbreak Express" sounds too 
liberating.

What about "Outhouse Excess"?

;->

Paul King

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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 13 23:35:02 2006
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:35:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <448F1216.2599.5E7681-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
 <448F1216.2599.5E7681@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131934210.6468@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Paul King wrote:

> On 13 Jun 2006 at 8:12, Gary Layng spaketh these wourdes:
>
>> Recommends Outbreak Express?
>
> We have to think of a better nickname than that. "outbreak Express" sounds too
> liberating.
>
> What about "Outhouse Excess"?

    Outhouse Excrement?

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 00:02:52 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 03:02:52 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <448F1216.2599.5E7681-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
 <448F1216.2599.5E7681@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <f.zpcgjk@ac.bdg.lv.iiupi>


On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Paul King wrote:

>> Recommends Outbreak Express?
>
> We have to think of a better nickname than that. "outbreak Express" sounds too
> liberating.
>
> What about "Outhouse Excess"?

I call it 'allesschluck express'. Allesschluck is a compund word (that I 
compounded) in German. It means swallow-all. Because that program will 
really take anything. Any virus, any spam, and all one's data.

Peter
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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 02:30:03 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:30:03 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <200606131733.30276.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca>
	<200606130812.34379.glayng@sympatico.ca>
	<b7a3fe4a0606130759o6d84019o1a06f49407a1c382@mail.gmail.com>
	<200606131733.30276.glayng@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060613223003.35a0c3dd.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:33:27 -0400
Gary Layng got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> there's no place like 127.0.0.1

LOL! Best sig *ever*. 

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 02:51:33 2006
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:51:33 -0400
Subject: NewsHosting (sympatico)
In-Reply-To: <20060613223003.35a0c3dd.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E5FFA.22888.D7F223F@pking123.sympatico.ca> <200606131733.30276.glayng@sympatico.ca> <20060613223003.35a0c3dd.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <200606132251.34361.glayng@sympatico.ca>

"Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac

Thanks, yours is pretty good too!

On June 13, 2006 22:30, JoeHill wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:33:27 -0400
>
> Gary Layng got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
> > there's no place like 127.0.0.1
>
> LOL! Best sig *ever*.

-- 
there's no place like 127.0.0.1
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 03:25:21 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:25:21 -0400
Subject: Building a toaster
Message-ID: <448F81A1.4060303@pppoe.ca>


Freedom Toasters are conveniently located, self-contained, 
computer-based, 'Bring 'n Burn' facilities.

Like vending machines, preloaded to dispense confectionery, Freedom 
Toasters are preloaded to dispense free digital products, including 
software, photography, music and literature.

The Freedom Toaster project began as a means of overcoming the 
difficulty in obtaining Linux and Open Source software due to the 
restrictive telecommunications environment in South Africa, where the 
easy downloading of large pieces of software is just not possible for 
everyone.

http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=Build

Meng Cheah
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 04:17:51 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Projector required
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606131336r6cefc45eu31f0ffed05fa6de0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606131128330.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net> 
 <c241693f0606131002j526d98el47d1bfedea644910@mail.gmail.com>
 <d6d6637f0606131336r6cefc45eu31f0ffed05fa6de0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606140014400.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Christopher Browne wrote:

> I have usually been able to borrow one from the office; being "on
> call" this week meant I needed some backup (in case my phone goes off,
> and I disappear in the middle of the meeting).  I've been able to find
> that, so we do have a projector for today.

Way to go Chris!

Lots of appreciation over here.  Thanks.

I do think we need to hash out the various pros and cons of a GTALUG owned 
projector.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 10:18:49 2006
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:18:49 -0400
Subject: The "new" news service at Sympatico
In-Reply-To: <448F1216.15762.5E76C7-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060613114309.GC9487@localhost> <448F1216.15762.5E76C7@pking123.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP01791D44BCFC0CDE4B3BE6EA8D0@CEZ.ICE>

Paul King wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2006 at 13:27, Mel Wilson spaketh these wourdes:

[ ... ]
> All USENET servers will miss entire newsgroups (nobody wants to carry groups that 
> no one reads), and they will add them if you ask. But if you ever comapred 
> Sympatico with even the cheapest server out there (such as  the Free servers I 
> used), Sympatico's completion WITHIN newsgroups was pathetic even compared with a 
> free server! Not only would multipart posts be missing but scores of single-posts 
> also. [ ... ]

True.  The free server in Berlin was fantastic while it
lasted.  After it went to a paid service in euros I went
back to the-wire's service and found out they'd contracted
with a really good back-end, that seemed as good as the
Berlin one.  (Might have been usenetserver.com, which seems
to be what they're using now.)  I would have to use dial-up
to get there.
> 
>> Worst is the new basic service doesn't allow posting.  I 
>> have an email in asking what the extended service costs, 
>> before I click "activate", but I've got no answer yet.
> 
> Just check the bell newshosting site:
>    https://controlpanel.newshosting.com/newssignup/signup/?r=91809
> for a price structure.
> 
> Warning: the only news reader they recommend is Outlook Express. The free service 
> failed on my copies of Agent and PAN.  

!!! Not only that, it amounts to a 25% price hike for the
high-speed account.

sales-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org is strangely quiet lately.

Maybe Magma would be worth the switch, as long as there
isn't going to be a large-cap ISP stampede toward unbundling.

Any advice?

          Cheers,        Mel.

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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 10:34:42 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:34:42 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org> <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost> <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org> <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost>
Message-ID: <20060614103442.GA17293@waltdnes.org>

On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 07:23:43AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote
> On Tue Jun 13,2006 12:48:30 AM Walter Dnes wrote:
> >Does eclean auto-magically transfer ownership of the tarball
> >to the latest installed version?  If so, it would be ideal
> >for my needs.
> 
> With the -d switch, I believe eclean will keep only the files that 
> would be required to re-build the versions of the packages that you 
> currently have installed. I think, therefore, the answer is yes.

  I ran "eclean -d distfiles" and it said...
" * Total space that has been freed in distfiles directory: 155.8 M"

  Next, I did an "emerge --sync" on the secondary machine which uses the
main machine as a mirror.  I followed that with a --fetchonly emerge.
All the files appeared to come from the "first mirror", i.e.
http://192.168.123.252:1024 and they came through at approx 11.15 mega-
*BYTES* per second!!!  I have boa serving out /usr/portage/distfiles on
my main machine.  So that worked out OK.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 14 19:06:52 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:06:52 -0400
Subject: looking for JBoss expert for a 3-5 day consulting gig
Message-ID: <5DCDB532-6CAF-4D43-86FC-2097350CAF23@visibleassets.com>

Anyone in the toronto area ?

Please contact me off list

Dave
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 10:16:01 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 06:16:01 -0400
Subject: Help: Google Earth can't find libGL.so.1
In-Reply-To: <20060613131228.GH559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca> <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060615101601.GA20522@waltdnes.org>

On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 09:12:28AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote
 
> On the other hand it appears to actually be native linux.  Uses libjpeg,
> libmng, opengl libs, native libc threads, etc.

  This seems like an opportunity for me to jump in with my question.  I
installed the bin.  However, when I try running it, I get...

waltdnes at m3000 ~ $ googleearth 
./googleearth-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libGL.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

  I do so have libGL.so.1

[m3000][root][~] find / -name libGL.so*
/usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1.2
/usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so

libGL.so.1.2 is the real file, with the other 2 being symlinks to it.
How do I get the file recognized?

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 14:24:05 2006
From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:24:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Help: Google Earth can't find libGL.so.1
In-Reply-To: <20060615101601.GA20522-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca> <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060615101601.GA20522@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151022160.17339@cruithne.localnet>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Walter Dnes wrote:
> waltdnes at m3000 ~ $ googleearth
> ./googleearth-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libGL.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
>  I do so have libGL.so.1
> [m3000][root][~] find / -name libGL.so*
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1.2
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so
> libGL.so.1.2 is the real file, with the other 2 being symlinks to it.
> How do I get the file recognized?

Easy way: as root, add /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib to your 
/etc/ld.so.conf file, then run "ldconfig".

You can also add /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib to your LD_LIBRARY_PATH 
environment variable.

HTH
JV
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 15:18:17 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 18:18:17 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <zziq.tdzmzz-KRemWmCAZyGV5ajEjIeNaA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>
 <c241693f0606120744p54674041n94b013c7884e2ca6@mail.gmail.com>
 <zziq.tdzmzz@xu.ogv.iiupi.up>
Message-ID: <m.mmicum@skqke.pqv.iiupi>


On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Peter wrote:

> <g>. To remove some of the danger one could do '-ctime +II -a -atime -DD -a 
> type f' where II is set to a date afther the last update/install. But

That should be '-ctime -CC -a atime +AA -a type f' with CC = 
today - date_of_install and AA = expiry time

P.
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From michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 16:09:58 2006
From: michael.r.newman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Newman)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:09:58 -0400
Subject: Open source event on Parliament Hill :)
Message-ID: <44918656.3060504@gmail.com>

http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/2497
"The Hon. Joe Fontana, P.C., M.P., Critic for Science & Research, would 
like to invite all Members of Parliament, Senators, and their staff to 
an all party information session on Open Source Software: a viable 
option to costly software packages."
OCLUG gets to go, too. I wonder if my MP is going...
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 16:38:17 2006
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:38:17 -0400
Subject: Open source event on Parliament Hill :)
In-Reply-To: <44918656.3060504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <44918656.3060504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606151238.18444.glayng@sympatico.ca>

Linkie?

On June 15, 2006 12:09, Michael Newman wrote:
> http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/2497
> "The Hon. Joe Fontana, P.C., M.P., Critic for Science & Research, would
> like to invite all Members of Parliament, Senators, and their staff to
> an all party information session on Open Source Software: a viable
> option to costly software packages."
> OCLUG gets to go, too. I wonder if my MP is going...
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 17:00:00 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:00:00 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
Message-ID: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

In Perl I can use print like this:

print <<"*END*";
This is line one
This is line two with quotations ""
*END*

Is there an equivalent in bash?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 13 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 17:25:46 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 20:25:46 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615170000.GA4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>



On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> In Perl I can use print like this:
>
> print <<"*END*";
> This is line one
> This is line two with quotations ""
> *END*

This is line two with quotations '""'
plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
> This is line two with quotations ""
> END
This is line two with quotations ""
plp at plp:~$

Peter
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 17:32:11 2006
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:32:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615170000.GA4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151329370.31593@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> In Perl I can use print like this:
>
> print <<"*END*";
> This is line one
> This is line two with quotations ""
> *END*
>
> Is there an equivalent in bash?

    See "Here Documents" in the man page:

cat <<EOF
This is line one
This is line two with quotations ""
EOF

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 17:33:44 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:33:44 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv-0T4ncGJthXQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>
Message-ID: <20060615173344.GB4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:25:46PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
>>This is line two with quotations ""
>>END

What about quoting the string so that no special characters are
interpreted?  The eqiuvilant of using single quotes?


-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 13 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:03:01 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:03:01 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <20060614103442.GA17293-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org>
	 <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost>
	 <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org>
	 <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost>
	 <20060614103442.GA17293@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606151103t414cce0eueaa4859b9b61906c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/14/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
[snip]
> Next, I did an "emerge --sync" on the secondary machine which uses the
> main machine as a mirror.  I followed that with a --fetchonly emerge.
> All the files appeared to come from the "first mirror", i.e.
> http://192.168.123.252:1024 and they came through at approx 11.15 mega-
> *BYTES* per second!!!

mega*bytes*? I am curious, what kind of network are you on?

Also, could something be distorting the count? IIRC it used to be that
when you downloaded a file in IE on Windows, it started downloading
while you were in the Save As... dialog box, but it did not count the
time you spent there, so the download speed counter often started at
500 Kb/s or more and then slowly settled down to the actual speed.

Please CC me on all replies.
Regards,
Jason
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:12:20 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:12:20 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615170000.GA4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060615181220.GA4485@wp.magstar.net>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 01:00:00PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> In Perl I can use print like this:
> 
> print <<"*END*";
> This is line one
> This is line two with quotations ""
> *END*
> 
> Is there an equivalent in bash?

Yes.  sed 's/print/cat/'

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:12:38 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:12:38 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615173344.GB4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	 <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>
	 <20060615173344.GB4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606151112h420cb6c1u84e0a9ce49bab22a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/15/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:25:46PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> >plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
> >>This is line two with quotations ""
> >>END
>
> What about quoting the string so that no special characters are
> interpreted?  The eqiuvilant of using single quotes?
>

I don't know if this feature is mentioned in the manpage, but cat
<<'END' seems to work for what you want.

The same thing works with here strings (a new feature in Bash 3.0 that
lets you write one-line here-documents easily. Plus, they go into your
up-arrow history so you can search for them with Ctrl-R etc.)

$ rev <<<"Current directory is $PWD"
r/orips/emoh/ si yrotcerid tnerruC
$ rev <<<'Current directory is $PWD'
DWP$ si yrotcerid tnerruC

Please CC me on all replies.
Regards,
Jason
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:14:36 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:14:36 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615170000.GA4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060615181436.GC4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

Thanks for the help everyone.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 13 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:29:33 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:29:33 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615181436.GC4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	 <20060615181436.GC4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1150396174.5650.0.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

Hmph.  I wrote the book on the shell I didn't even get a word in!  Well,
problem solved and good work everyone.

KB

On Thu, 2006-06-15 at 14:14 -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> Thanks for the help everyone.
> 
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:35:56 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:35:56 -0400
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
Message-ID: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

Since Ken missed out on the last one here's another.  I have script that
annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
not mine and may change in the future.  How can I automate the 'y'
answer?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 13 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:37:07 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:37:07 -0400
Subject: Open source event on Parliament Hill :)
In-Reply-To: <200606151238.18444.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44918656.3060504@gmail.com>
	 <200606151238.18444.glayng@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1150396627.8963.591.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2006-15-06 at 12:38 -0400, Gary Layng wrote:
> Linkie?

The original invitation to this event appeared here:
http://oclug.on.ca/archives/oclug-announce/2006-June/000178.html

I have sent an email to several local (to me) MPs to let them know that
I am
concerned about F/LOSS and that I encourage them to attend the
information session.  Please consider adding your voice.  

The list of Canadian MPs is here:
http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?TimePeriod=Current&Language=E


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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:11:26 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:11:26 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615173344.GB4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>
 <20060615173344.GB4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <hxt.jxokp@fdev.jmv.iiupi>



On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:25:46PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
>>> This is line two with quotations ""
>>> END
>
> What about quoting the string so that no special characters are
> interpreted?  The eqiuvilant of using single quotes?

What about it ? Special characters are not interpreted in the 
here-document. They are interpreted by the shell when and if this here 
document appears on a shell command line later. E.g.:

Q=`cat <<END
This is a line with a "$variable" in it
EOF`

echo $Q
echo "$Q"

Peter
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:37:32 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:37:32 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615173344.GB4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>
 <20060615173344.GB4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <y.z@eqxxi.grbz>



On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:25:46PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
>>> This is line two with quotations ""
>>> END
>
> What about quoting the string so that no special characters are
> interpreted?  The eqiuvilant of using single quotes?

I think that I do not understand the question.

Peter
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:45:23 2006
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:45:23 -0400
Subject: Open source event on Parliament Hill :)
In-Reply-To: <1150396627.8963.591.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <44918656.3060504@gmail.com> <200606151238.18444.glayng@sympatico.ca> <1150396627.8963.591.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200606151445.23298.glayng@sympatico.ca>

Thanks!!

On June 15, 2006 14:37, Interlug wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-15-06 at 12:38 -0400, Gary Layng wrote:
> > Linkie?
>
> The original invitation to this event appeared here:
> http://oclug.on.ca/archives/oclug-announce/2006-June/000178.html
>
> I have sent an email to several local (to me) MPs to let them know that
> I am
> concerned about F/LOSS and that I encourage them to attend the
> information session.  Please consider adding your voice.
>
> The list of Canadian MPs is here:
> http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?Time
>Period=Current&Language=E
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

-- 
there's no place like 127.0.0.1
--
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 18:48:54 2006
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:48:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <20060615183556.GD4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151448030.31593@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:

> Since Ken missed out on the last one here's another.  I have script that
> annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
> not mine and may change in the future.  How can I automate the 'y'
> answer?

echo y | /path/to/script

yes | /path/to/script


-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 20:19:35 2006
From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:19:35 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <20060615173344.GB4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	 <nlsr.czbjhj.lnzv@aaa.ij>  <20060615173344.GB4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <1150402775.29623.7.camel@home>

On Thu, 2006-06-15 at 13:33 -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:25:46PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> >plp at plp:~$ cat <<END
> >>This is line two with quotations ""
> >>END
> 
> What about quoting the string so that no special characters are
> interpreted?  The eqiuvilant of using single quotes?


[behdad at home devel]$ cat <<END
> echo $PWD
> END
echo /home/behdad/src/redhat/pango/devel
[behdad at home devel]$ cat <<\END
> echo PWD
> END
echo PWD


-- 
behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
        -- Dan Bern, "New American Language"

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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 20:42:17 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:42:17 -0400
Subject: Help: Google Earth can't find libGL.so.1
In-Reply-To: <20060615101601.GA20522-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca>
	 <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <20060615101601.GA20522@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606151342i6efef06fm54eb25adc570ac02@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/15/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> [m3000][root][~] find / -name libGL.so*
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so.1.2
> /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib/libGL.so
>
I use locate, it's much faster.

su -c 'updatedb'

Ten minutes later...

$ locate libGL.so
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1.2
/usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.so.1
/usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.so.1.2

Locate runs instantaneously, unlike find.

Also look into Beagle, Novell's desktop search tool for Linux, if it
is available on your platform. It is now available Debian for those
brave enough to run a mix of etch and sid.

As usual, just do: sudo aptitude install beagle

Regards,
Jason
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 15 21:06:43 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:06:43 -0400
Subject: saving images in google earth
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606151406p5d252be7kce6147beb4f30646@mail.gmail.com>

I am trying out the new Google Earth linux beta and I am having a
problem when I try to save images. If I go to the menu and choose
"File->Save Image", the option is greyed out and unavailable for use.
Anyone else experiencing the same problem, and how one might fix it? A
google search turns up someone else reporting the problem in a online
forum, but no response.

Thanks for any help!
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From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 02:07:24 2006
From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 22:07:24 -0400
Subject: printf in bash
In-Reply-To: <1150396174.5650.0.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615170000.GA4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060615181436.GC4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <1150396174.5650.0.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <20060616020724.GA7648@lupus.perlwolf.com>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 02:29:33PM -0400, Ken Burtch wrote:
> Hmph.  I wrote the book on the shell I didn't even get a word in!  Well,
> problem solved and good work everyone.

Well, here documents date back to early shells (they were
certainly in the Bourne shell, I think they were in the original
shell too).  Perl took them, with essentially the same syntax
(before bash was started, if my brief research is right that bash
dates back to 1991).

So, lots of people were able to answer this particular question
long before your book was written.  Perhaps a question that is
really bash specific will come along and make your day. 

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From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 02:14:59 2006
From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 22:14:59 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606151103t414cce0eueaa4859b9b61906c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org> <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost> <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org> <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost> <20060614103442.GA17293@waltdnes.org> <c241693f0606151103t414cce0eueaa4859b9b61906c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060616021458.GB7648@lupus.perlwolf.com>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 02:03:01PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
> On 6/14/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> [snip]
> >Next, I did an "emerge --sync" on the secondary machine which uses the
> >main machine as a mirror.  I followed that with a --fetchonly emerge.
> >All the files appeared to come from the "first mirror", i.e.
> >http://192.168.123.252:1024 and they came through at approx 11.15 mega-
> >*BYTES* per second!!!
> 
> mega*bytes*? I am curious, what kind of network are you on?
> 
> Also, could something be distorting the count? IIRC it used to be that
> when you downloaded a file in IE on Windows, it started downloading
> while you were in the Save As... dialog box, but it did not count the
> time you spent there, so the download speed counter often started at
> 500 Kb/s or more and then slowly settled down to the actual speed.

My guess was that it computed from the amount of data that
had been written.  The first buffer gets written in zero time,
and the next few are almost as fast.  Eventually the network
transmit buffers in the kernel get filled up, and things
slow down to the local network speed.  Even later, the entire
transmit window is filled and no more packets can be sent and
things slow down to the real end to end speed.  At each stage,
the computed transmit speed is too high, but starts approaching
the speed of the current limiting factor, but it takes quite
a while before the reported number is at all reasonable.

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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 03:22:32 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:22:32 -0400
Subject: Help: Google Earth can't find libGL.so.1
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151022160.17339-dm88P3lIUJm3mOxTGPmkd16hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca> <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060615101601.GA20522@waltdnes.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151022160.17339@cruithne.localnet>
Message-ID: <20060616032232.GA21620@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 10:24:05AM -0400, John Vetterli wrote

> Easy way: as root, add /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/lib to your 
> /etc/ld.so.conf file, then run "ldconfig".

  Slightly different in Gentoo, but the idea is the same

  OK, google-earth now runs^H^H^H^H crawls just fine.  There's a warning
that I'm using software when I should be using hardware.  Now back to
the Gentoo forum to see what I can do to speed up my Radeon X300.  I do
*NOT* want to go back to the proprietary fglrx driver.  It gives true
Windows emulation... including the lockups that require the power to be
recycled... grrr.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 03:59:28 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:59:28 -0400
Subject: Open source event on Parliament Hill :)
In-Reply-To: <200606151238.18444.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44918656.3060504@gmail.com> <200606151238.18444.glayng@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <44922CA0.6070202@telly.org>

Gary Layng wrote:

>Linkie?
>  
>
http://www.cluecan.ca/node/285

We'll be there. In fact, I think that CLUE had a part in making it happen.

- Evan

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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 21:06:50 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:06:50 -0400
Subject: PegaSoft - Tuesday - SQL Introduction
Message-ID: <1150492010.11791.11.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

Date:     Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 7:00 to 9:00 pm
Location: Linux Cafe near Christie subway stop
Topic:    Introduction to SQL

The next PegaSoft dinner meeting is Tuesday at the new location, the
Linux Cafe.  Ken will be presenting an introduction to the SQL database
language.  In addition, we'll have the usual open discussion on Linux
news and an update on member projects.  Attendance is free but please
email me to reserve a seat (the Cafe will remain open late to
accommodate the meeting if we have enough people coming).

More information at http://www.pegasoft.ca/events.html

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 22:13:07 2006
From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 18:13:07 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
Message-ID: <6344cf8feff8394bc7948f48d2a1ad19@millsgarthson.ca>

(This is a second-hand message about something a co-worker encountered, 
so I may have some details wrong.)

The system in question is a rack-mount server with two SATA drives that 
he would like to have in a raid configuration.  He has an Adaptec 
1210SA card that is advertised as doing the job.  It also claims to be 
Linux compatible.  When he attempts an installation -- using a 
bleeding-edge Debian distro, I believe -- it shows him the two disks as 
separate devices and asks how he wants them partitioned instead of 
treating the pair as a single volume.  (My assumption was that the 
controller should mask the existence of individual drives, but 
obviously not.)  The documentation has a section on creating a "driver 
floppy" which is seemingly useless since the machine has no floppy 
drive.

Q1: Does anyone have experience with making this card work or, on the 
other hand, with definitively failing to make it work?

Q2: If this isn't going to work, is there another hardware solution 
that reasonably priced?

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 16 22:28:47 2006
From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 18:28:47 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
Message-ID: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>

Been that route. Gave up. Card's for sale if anyone wants it. Used 4 hours
Went 2410 which is h/w raid instead. Got 3 now. All fine until h/w failure a week ago - still recovering now on one array
D

------Original Message------
From: phil
To: tlug at ss.org
ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org
Sent: Jun 16, 2006 6:13 PM
Subject: [TLUG]: SATA Raid

(This is a second-hand message about something a co-worker encountered, 
so I may have some details wrong.)

The system in question is a rack-mount server with two SATA drives that 
he would like to have in a raid configuration.  He has an Adaptec 
1210SA card that is advertised as doing the job.  It also claims to be 
Linux compatible.  When he attempts an installation -- using a 
bleeding-edge Debian distro, I believe -- it shows him the two disks as 
separate devices and asks how he wants them partitioned instead of 
treating the pair as a single volume.  (My assumption was that the 
controller should mask the existence of individual drives, but 
obviously not.)  The documentation has a section on creating a "driver 
floppy" which is seemingly useless since the machine has no floppy 
drive.

Q1: Does anyone have experience with making this card work or, on the 
other hand, with definitively failing to make it work?

Q2: If this isn't going to work, is there another hardware solution 
that reasonably priced?

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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Dave Bour
Desktop Solution Center
905.381.0077
dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca

For those who just want it to work...
Giving you complete IT peace of mind. 

(Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual verbose responses)
PIN 3010A5AF (as of June 12, 2006)  
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 17 00:51:45 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 20:51:45 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC-Jbakdu7TueDXKbHvCO1Mttbx/7hll2mj@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
Message-ID: <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com>

The areca cards are quite good

Dave
On 16-Jun-06, at 6:28 PM, Dave Bour wrote:

> Been that route. Gave up. Card's for sale if anyone wants it. Used  
> 4 hours
> Went 2410 which is h/w raid instead. Got 3 now. All fine until h/w  
> failure a week ago - still recovering now on one array
> D
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: phil
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Sent: Jun 16, 2006 6:13 PM
> Subject: [TLUG]: SATA Raid
>
> (This is a second-hand message about something a co-worker  
> encountered,
> so I may have some details wrong.)
>
> The system in question is a rack-mount server with two SATA drives  
> that
> he would like to have in a raid configuration.  He has an Adaptec
> 1210SA card that is advertised as doing the job.  It also claims to be
> Linux compatible.  When he attempts an installation -- using a
> bleeding-edge Debian distro, I believe -- it shows him the two  
> disks as
> separate devices and asks how he wants them partitioned instead of
> treating the pair as a single volume.  (My assumption was that the
> controller should mask the existence of individual drives, but
> obviously not.)  The documentation has a section on creating a "driver
> floppy" which is seemingly useless since the machine has no floppy
> drive.
>
> Q1: Does anyone have experience with making this card work or, on the
> other hand, with definitively failing to make it work?
>
> Q2: If this isn't going to work, is there another hardware solution
> that reasonably priced?
>
> ........................
> Phillip Mills
> Multi-platform software development
> (416) 224-0714
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
>
> Dave Bour
> Desktop Solution Center
> 905.381.0077
> dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org
>
> For those who just want it to work...
> Giving you complete IT peace of mind.
>
> (Sent via Blackberry - hence message may be shorter than my usual  
> verbose responses)
> PIN 3010A5AF (as of June 12, 2006)
>

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 17 15:36:06 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:36:06 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <6344cf8feff8394bc7948f48d2a1ad19-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org>
References: <6344cf8feff8394bc7948f48d2a1ad19@millsgarthson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060617153606.GI559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 06:13:07PM -0400, phil wrote:
> (This is a second-hand message about something a co-worker encountered, 
> so I may have some details wrong.)
> 
> The system in question is a rack-mount server with two SATA drives that 
> he would like to have in a raid configuration.  He has an Adaptec 
> 1210SA card that is advertised as doing the job.  It also claims to be 
> Linux compatible.  When he attempts an installation -- using a 
> bleeding-edge Debian distro, I believe -- it shows him the two disks as 
> separate devices and asks how he wants them partitioned instead of 
> treating the pair as a single volume.  (My assumption was that the 
> controller should mask the existence of individual drives, but 
> obviously not.)  The documentation has a section on creating a "driver 
> floppy" which is seemingly useless since the machine has no floppy 
> drive.
> 
> Q1: Does anyone have experience with making this card work or, on the 
> other hand, with definitively failing to make it work?
> 
> Q2: If this isn't going to work, is there another hardware solution 
> that reasonably priced?

The adaptec 1210 is a fake raid card.  It is not hardware raid.  It just
uses an Sil311x chip with a bios to emulate raid until the driver takes
over the job.  dmraid is a linux driver to deal with fake raids.  Debian
does NOT support dmraid at this time.

Real hardware raid cards cost quite a bit more (atlhough adaptec is good
at being expensive even when not hardware raid).

Some hardware raid cards that are supposed to work:
3ware
areca (drivers not yet included in kernels)
IT8212
promise ex83x0/ex163x0 cards (drivers not included in kernels)

There are quite a few more too.  Check here for some of them:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Hardware/sata.html

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 17 15:39:51 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:39:51 -0400
Subject: Help: Google Earth can't find libGL.so.1
In-Reply-To: <20060616032232.GA21620-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <448E23EA.3040703@utoronto.ca> <20060613125011.GG559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060613131228.GH559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060615101601.GA20522@waltdnes.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151022160.17339@cruithne.localnet> <20060616032232.GA21620@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20060617153951.GJ559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 11:22:32PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
>   Slightly different in Gentoo, but the idea is the same
> 
>   OK, google-earth now runs^H^H^H^H crawls just fine.  There's a warning
> that I'm using software when I should be using hardware.  Now back to
> the Gentoo forum to see what I can do to speed up my Radeon X300.  I do
> *NOT* want to go back to the proprietary fglrx driver.  It gives true
> Windows emulation... including the lockups that require the power to be
> recycled... grrr.

I suspect for that card the choice is software opengl or fglrx.  I don't
think anyone has gotten anywhere reverse engineering that one.

Len Sorensen
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 17 16:51:05 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:51:05 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <20060617153606.GI559-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <6344cf8feff8394bc7948f48d2a1ad19@millsgarthson.ca> <20060617153606.GI559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CD58EE25-B3A4-436B-BE0C-96B2D5EA0703@visibleassets.com>


On 17-Jun-06, at 11:36 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 06:13:07PM -0400, phil wrote:
>> (This is a second-hand message about something a co-worker  
>> encountered,
>> so I may have some details wrong.)
>>
>> The system in question is a rack-mount server with two SATA drives  
>> that
>> he would like to have in a raid configuration.  He has an Adaptec
>> 1210SA card that is advertised as doing the job.  It also claims  
>> to be
>> Linux compatible.  When he attempts an installation -- using a
>> bleeding-edge Debian distro, I believe -- it shows him the two  
>> disks as
>> separate devices and asks how he wants them partitioned instead of
>> treating the pair as a single volume.  (My assumption was that the
>> controller should mask the existence of individual drives, but
>> obviously not.)  The documentation has a section on creating a  
>> "driver
>> floppy" which is seemingly useless since the machine has no floppy
>> drive.
>>
>> Q1: Does anyone have experience with making this card work or, on the
>> other hand, with definitively failing to make it work?
>>
>> Q2: If this isn't going to work, is there another hardware solution
>> that reasonably priced?
>
> The adaptec 1210 is a fake raid card.  It is not hardware raid.  It  
> just
> uses an Sil311x chip with a bios to emulate raid until the driver  
> takes
> over the job.  dmraid is a linux driver to deal with fake raids.   
> Debian
> does NOT support dmraid at this time.
>
> Real hardware raid cards cost quite a bit more (atlhough adaptec is  
> good
> at being expensive even when not hardware raid).
>
> Some hardware raid cards that are supposed to work:
> 3ware
> areca (drivers not yet included in kernels)

I think they are in later 2.6 kernels
> IT8212
> promise ex83x0/ex163x0 cards (drivers not included in kernels)
>
> There are quite a few more too.  Check here for some of them:
> http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Hardware/sata.html
>
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 17 18:46:26 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:46:26 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
Message-ID: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a programmer.

"In 2005, I went for a job interview at a company in Niagara area which
manufacturers equipment for dentists. The receptionist said I was the
most polite and pleasant candidate they had interviewed. I walked into
the meeting room to talk with the HR person. With too much make-up,
over-styled hair and flirty-but-fashionable clothes, she looked like
someone who wanted to be a regular on "Sex in the City". "Our company,"
she said, "has offices in major American cities." You could almost hear
her add, "And I won't be stuck in this backwater dump for long." She
looked me over--overweight, glasses and balding--and immediately turned
cold. I wasn't one of those handsome TV guys. I was a computer geek
applying for a computer geek job. Interviewing me didn't fit with her
plans for becoming Somebody..."

Read the rest here:

http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_june_2006.html

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 00:25:12 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 20:25:12 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <1150569986.9511.5.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <1150590312.4212.18.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

Ouch, I feel for you Ken but I wouldn't put too much value in HR people.
Many of them have meaningless degrees in irrelevant subjects and are
often hired for their looks to dress up the office. You were simply at
the wrong company. I once had an interview with an HR person for a job.
The bit*h (maybe the same one ;) )raked me over the coals before I had a
chance to open my mouth. Having quickly evaluated the company and
situation I behaved (while having some fun in the process) in such a
bizarre manner that no self respecting loser would hire me. My reason
for this behavior was that if a company treats you poorly at first
meeting imagine what it would be like to work there ...yikes!!! Run,
don't walk away!!!. Yes I know many theories exist on how HR people
evaluate your personality through stressful situations, but who needs
that? Not me. Courtesy first then evaluation afterward. Don't take their
crap, fire something back. Set the tone for the interview. Your are also
interviewing them to see if you want to work there. You're better off
checking out another company through networking with professionals which
may require some schmoozing skills development. Get to know the OWNER or
PRESIDENT of the company first if possible.
Regards,
RickT
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca

On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 14:46 -0400, Ken Burtch wrote:
> This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a programmer.
> 
> "In 2005, I went for a job interview at a company in Niagara area which
> manufacturers equipment for dentists. The receptionist said I was the
> most polite and pleasant candidate they had interviewed. I walked into
> the meeting room to talk with the HR person. With too much make-up,
> over-styled hair and flirty-but-fashionable clothes, she looked like
> someone who wanted to be a regular on "Sex in the City". "Our company,"
> she said, "has offices in major American cities." You could almost hear
> her add, "And I won't be stuck in this backwater dump for long." She
> looked me over--overweight, glasses and balding--and immediately turned
> cold. I wasn't one of those handsome TV guys. I was a computer geek
> applying for a computer geek job. Interviewing me didn't fit with her
> plans for becoming Somebody..."
> 
> Read the rest here:
> 
> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_june_2006.html
> 
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 00:06:05 2006
From: rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org (Robin Humble)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 20:06:05 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>The areca cards are quite good

are they faster than software raid5?

we're thinking of giving up on hardware raid (3ware 12-way SATA mostly)
and just using software as (from our testing) it's both faster and cheaper.

cheers,
robin
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 01:55:55 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 21:55:55 -0400
Subject: Script to remove files older than 30 days?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606151103t414cce0eueaa4859b9b61906c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060611213534.GA26414@waltdnes.org> <20060612095100.GA1975@localhost> <20060613044830.GA30107@waltdnes.org> <20060613112343.GA9487@localhost> <20060614103442.GA17293@waltdnes.org> <c241693f0606151103t414cce0eueaa4859b9b61906c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060618015555.GA26201@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 02:03:01PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote
> On 6/14/06, Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> [snip]
> >Next, I did an "emerge --sync" on the secondary machine which uses the
> >main machine as a mirror.  I followed that with a --fetchonly emerge.
> >All the files appeared to come from the "first mirror", i.e.
> >http://192.168.123.252:1024 and they came through at approx 11.15 mega-
> >*BYTES* per second!!!
> 
> mega*bytes*? I am curious, what kind of network are you on?

  GVC 4-port ADSL modem + router combo (10/100 megabits).  The newer
machine has a 100/1000 megabit nic, and the older one has 10/100.

> Also, could something be distorting the count? IIRC it used to be that
> when you downloaded a file in IE on Windows, it started downloading
> while you were in the Save As... dialog box, but it did not count the
> time you spent there, so the download speed counter often started at
> 500 Kb/s or more and then slowly settled down to the actual speed.

  emerge (the Gentoo fetch and install command) uses wget.  The process
is automated.  I believe the numbers.  The Firefox tarball, 35 megabytes
worth, came down in approx 3 seconds.  I don't think the older machine's
hard drive can keep up that pace.  It seems to max out at around 3.5
megabytes.  However, 35 megs could queue up in ram, waiting to be written
to disc.  There's also a second or so of handshaking between files.  It
helps that the older machine (128 megs of ram) was only running sshd at
the time.  If the file was multi-gigabytes, it would easily fill up all
buffer space, and slow down to a more realistic speed.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 03:50:15 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:50:15 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <20060618000605.GA10740-Xa+LbO3DC1G2Q0qicKDiVp4VBq8PJc8F@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com>


On 17-Jun-06, at 8:06 PM, Robin Humble wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>> The areca cards are quite good
>
> are they faster than software raid5?

Well, there are other things besides speed. Hotswapping, battery  
backup, write cache, etc

I've heard that software raid was fast, or faster, but I still use  
hardware raid cards, for the above reasons.

The larger areca card has optional 1G write cache. With the Battery  
Backup it's not cheap, but then neither is my data
>
> we're thinking of giving up on hardware raid (3ware 12-way SATA  
> mostly)
> and just using software as (from our testing) it's both faster and  
> cheaper.
>
> cheers,
> robin
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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From rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 17:23:33 2006
From: rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org (Robin Humble)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:23:33 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca> <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <20060618172333.GA12018@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 11:50:15PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>On 17-Jun-06, at 8:06 PM, Robin Humble wrote:
>>On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>The areca cards are quite good
>>are they faster than software raid5?
>Well, there are other things besides speed. Hotswapping, battery  
>backup, write cache, etc

good points.
however if I put the software raid machine on a UPS, run it with 2 or
4G of ram, and use SATA drives then I have all of the above don't I?

hmmm... plus or minus how happy Linux and mdadm is with hotswapping
SATA drives - how well does that work these days?
you need a bit of chassis support, but that's trivial compared to
traumas that the kernel might suffer if it's not happy with SATA drives
coming and going.

>I've heard that software raid was fast, or faster, but I still use  
>hardware raid cards, for the above reasons.

yeah, we currently do as well. but next time out we'll probably re-try
software raid.

cheers,
robin
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 17:52:47 2006
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:52:47 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca> <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>

On June 17, 2006 23:50, Dave Cramer wrote:
> On 17-Jun-06, at 8:06 PM, Robin Humble wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> >> The areca cards are quite good
> >
> > are they faster than software raid5?
>
> Well, there are other things besides speed. Hotswapping, battery
> backup, write cache, etc

A counterpoint: hardware RAID is too dependent on your hardware being 
supported by the specific version of the kernel module. The MegaRAID 
fiasco is a good example. I have two servers that have MegaRAID SCSI 
controllers which were both running pre 2.6.9 kernels. I had added 
some new drives to the machines and had reconfigured the RAID volumes 
thus (knowingly) blowing away all the data on the drives. I figured I 
might as well install a modern distro. Imagine my surprise to find 
that my previously well-supported RAID controller was no longer 
automatically detected. I tried various distros thinking that the 
packagers of first one I tried might have screwed things up but none 
I tried, other than distros running pre 2.6.9 kernels, detected any 
volumes. A bit of digging and I found that for some reason, the 
megaraid modules had been renamed and were no longer included, if 
memory serves. We're not talking about some exotic or ancient 
technology that could be deprecated without having much of an impact. 
We're talking about one of the more popular SCSI RAID controllers on 
the market. Fortunately, I had no data riding on this.

During the course of searching for answers, I found some convincing 
arguments as to why hardware RAID was potentially dangerous so I've 
been happily using software RAID since. Performance? Don't know, 
don't care. It's "fast enough" but I am reasonably sure now that a 
kernel upgrade isn't going to render my machine unusable.

> I've heard that software raid was fast, or faster, but I still use
> hardware raid cards, for the above reasons.
>
> The larger areca card has optional 1G write cache. With the Battery
> Backup it's not cheap, but then neither is my data

Why is a battery backup for the RAID controller necessary if you have 
a good UPS and automated shutdown facility?
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis Corporation
3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

+1 416-410-3326
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 23:09:50 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:09:50 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca> <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com> <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F@visibleassets.com>


On 18-Jun-06, at 1:52 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:

> On June 17, 2006 23:50, Dave Cramer wrote:
>> On 17-Jun-06, at 8:06 PM, Robin Humble wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>> The areca cards are quite good
>>>
>>> are they faster than software raid5?
>>
>> Well, there are other things besides speed. Hotswapping, battery
>> backup, write cache, etc
>
> A counterpoint: hardware RAID is too dependent on your hardware being
> supported by the specific version of the kernel module. The MegaRAID
> fiasco is a good example. I have two servers that have MegaRAID SCSI
> controllers which were both running pre 2.6.9 kernels. I had added
> some new drives to the machines and had reconfigured the RAID volumes
> thus (knowingly) blowing away all the data on the drives. I figured I
> might as well install a modern distro. Imagine my surprise to find
> that my previously well-supported RAID controller was no longer
> automatically detected. I tried various distros thinking that the
> packagers of first one I tried might have screwed things up but none
> I tried, other than distros running pre 2.6.9 kernels, detected any
> volumes. A bit of digging and I found that for some reason, the
> megaraid modules had been renamed and were no longer included, if
> memory serves. We're not talking about some exotic or ancient
> technology that could be deprecated without having much of an impact.
> We're talking about one of the more popular SCSI RAID controllers on
> the market. Fortunately, I had no data riding on this.
>
> During the course of searching for answers, I found some convincing
> arguments as to why hardware RAID was potentially dangerous so I've
> been happily using software RAID since. Performance? Don't know,
> don't care. It's "fast enough" but I am reasonably sure now that a
> kernel upgrade isn't going to render my machine unusable.
>
>> I've heard that software raid was fast, or faster, but I still use
>> hardware raid cards, for the above reasons.
>>
>> The larger areca card has optional 1G write cache. With the Battery
>> Backup it's not cheap, but then neither is my data
>
> Why is a battery backup for the RAID controller necessary if you have
> a good UPS and automated shutdown facility?

Well, I have seen UPS's fail, and I figure my data is worth a whole  
lot more than the cost of a decent RAID card.

Dave
> -- 
> Regards,
>
> Clifford Ilkay
> Dinamis Corporation
> 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419
> Toronto, ON
> Canada  M4N 3P6
>
> +1 416-410-3326
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 02:36:11 2006
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:36:11 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <200606182236.13120.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>

On June 18, 2006 19:09, Dave Cramer wrote:
> On 18-Jun-06, at 1:52 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> > On June 17, 2006 23:50, Dave Cramer wrote:
> >> On 17-Jun-06, at 8:06 PM, Robin Humble wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 08:51:45PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> >>>> The areca cards are quite good
> >>>
> >>> are they faster than software raid5?
> >>
> >> Well, there are other things besides speed. Hotswapping, battery
> >> backup, write cache, etc
> >
> > A counterpoint: hardware RAID is too dependent on your hardware
> > being supported by the specific version of the kernel module. The
> > MegaRAID fiasco is a good example. I have two servers that have
> > MegaRAID SCSI controllers which were both running pre 2.6.9
> > kernels. I had added some new drives to the machines and had
> > reconfigured the RAID volumes thus (knowingly) blowing away all
> > the data on the drives. I figured I might as well install a
> > modern distro. Imagine my surprise to find that my previously
> > well-supported RAID controller was no longer automatically
> > detected. I tried various distros thinking that the packagers of
> > first one I tried might have screwed things up but none I tried,
> > other than distros running pre 2.6.9 kernels, detected any
> > volumes. A bit of digging and I found that for some reason, the
> > megaraid modules had been renamed and were no longer included, if
> > memory serves. We're not talking about some exotic or ancient
> > technology that could be deprecated without having much of an
> > impact. We're talking about one of the more popular SCSI RAID
> > controllers on the market. Fortunately, I had no data riding on
> > this.
> >
> > During the course of searching for answers, I found some
> > convincing arguments as to why hardware RAID was potentially
> > dangerous so I've been happily using software RAID since.
> > Performance? Don't know, don't care. It's "fast enough" but I am
> > reasonably sure now that a kernel upgrade isn't going to render
> > my machine unusable.
> >
> >> I've heard that software raid was fast, or faster, but I still
> >> use hardware raid cards, for the above reasons.
> >>
> >> The larger areca card has optional 1G write cache. With the
> >> Battery Backup it's not cheap, but then neither is my data
> >
> > Why is a battery backup for the RAID controller necessary if you
> > have a good UPS and automated shutdown facility?
>
> Well, I have seen UPS's fail, and I figure my data is worth a whole
> lot more than the cost of a decent RAID card.

As I explained above, I already have decent RAID cards, which I 
disable and subsequently use software RAID because it seems that 
kernel support for even popular cards can change without warning. My 
motivation clearly isn't cost since I already own the cards. Besides, 
I have seen all sorts of batteries fail. What makes the battery 
backup for your RAID card any more reliable than a UPS?
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis Corporation
3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

+1 416-410-3326
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From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 18 22:56:10 2006
From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:56:10
Subject: Free computer
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060618225610.0dcf4bdc@mail.look.ca>

Free computer

Pick up as soon as possible:

Intel Pentium II, 350 MHz

128 MB RAM

6 GB hard drive

CD burner

NIC (network interface card)

Pick up from the area near 401 and Kennedy Road, Scarborough.

Contact me for exact address. Give me your name and telephone number.


Jim McIntosh   416-292-8126   <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org>


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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 03:44:32 2006
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 23:44:32 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <1150569986.9511.5.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a programmer.
>
> "In 2005, I went for a job interview at a company in Niagara area which
> manufacturers equipment for dentists. The receptionist said I was the
> most polite and pleasant candidate they had interviewed. I walked into
> the meeting room to talk with the HR person. With too much make-up,
> over-styled hair and flirty-but-fashionable clothes, she looked like
> someone who wanted to be a regular on "Sex in the City". "Our company,"
> she said, "has offices in major American cities." You could almost hear
> her add, "And I won't be stuck in this backwater dump for long." She
> looked me over--overweight, glasses and balding--and immediately turned
> cold. I wasn't one of those handsome TV guys. I was a computer geek
> applying for a computer geek job. Interviewing me didn't fit with her
> plans for becoming Somebody..."


Hi Ken,

Dealing with HR is quite a challenge. They seem to be quite nice people, but
their job seems to be a really, really different job than what computer
geeks do. I think in order to make that meeting with HR work, you have to
play their game. You'll need the following Important Items:

[] Haircut, facial hair trimmed (men only);
[] The nicest clothes that you still feel comfortable in;
[] A briefcase if necessary;
[] Decent shoes; and
[] A positive 'Sales' attitude.

As another poster mentioned, a job interview is a meeting to see if you're a
good fit for the company, and if the company's a good fit for you. Both
parties are selling, and both parties are buying. This is no place for
"Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover".

After over twenty years of working on the software industry, I'm still not
sure what the right answers are to some of those HR stumpers:

[] Where do you want to be in five years? (I don't know .. In Madrid?
Driving a truck? Five years older?)
[] Why do you want to work here? (Because you'll pay me?)
[] Who's your hero? (Grace Hopper? Steve Wozniak?)
[] What's the accomplishment you're most proud of? (A dual mode
communications module implemented using a state machine with function
pointers, written using Object Oriented C .. are you OK? Do you need a glass
of water?)
[] Tell me about the last book you read. (Hint: Nothing from O'Reilly --
they mean something that had a plot.)

I think a job interview is like a performance, really .. and you have to be
up to giving a really good performance, even if it has little to do with how
you are in real life. In fact, a job interview is kind of like a software
demo. You smile, show everyone some cool stuff, crack a few jokes, they
laugh, applaud, and everyone's all smiles afterwards. To do that one on one
is tougher. A lot tougher.

I'm left-brained -- that means that when someone asks me an HR-type
question, I usually have to stop and think about an answer. One way to
prepare for that is to have someone bombard you with HR type questions --
you have to be ready to tell a story in 30 seconds that answers that
question. A yes or a no won't do it -- and a five minute discourse on
Captain Kirk vs. Captian Picard won't do it either.

Anyway, I'm just hoping my next employer is small enough that they don't
have an HR department, so I can skip that part of the hiring process
altogether. (I'm not looking for a job -- I'm just saying.) I'd rather drink
beer with a bunch of techies and see if we can work together, rather than
sit a chair with a glass of water in a really artificial social situation,
trying to make my way through the maze of HR-type questions.

I just wonder what it's like for an HR person to go through the same thing.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
ps Good luck, if you're still looking.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 15:14:23 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:14:23 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <CD58EE25-B3A4-436B-BE0C-96B2D5EA0703-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <6344cf8feff8394bc7948f48d2a1ad19@millsgarthson.ca> <20060617153606.GI559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CD58EE25-B3A4-436B-BE0C-96B2D5EA0703@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <20060619151423.GA26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 12:51:05PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> >areca (drivers not yet included in kernels)
> 
> I think they are in later 2.6 kernels

Last I checked, the drivers were still going through cleanup, since
Linus and company would not accept them in the state they were in (wrong
coding style, etc).

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 15:17:23 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:17:23 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <20060618000605.GA10740-Xa+LbO3DC1G2Q0qicKDiVp4VBq8PJc8F@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060619151723.GB26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 08:06:05PM -0400, Robin Humble wrote:
> are they faster than software raid5?

I don't know.  I guess it partially depends how much cpu power you have
to spare for running the raid.  Of course when running raid in software,
you end up transfering the parity data over the bus too, but if you are
on a slower bus (not an option with areca cards of course) then you
could end up with less throughput just as a result of that.  With PCI-X
and PCIe x8 that shouldn't be an issue of course.

> we're thinking of giving up on hardware raid (3ware 12-way SATA mostly)
> and just using software as (from our testing) it's both faster and cheaper.

Well I was told a few years ago at a linux show by a 3ware distributer,
that most of their customers used the 3ware cards with linux as simply a
sata controller with a lot of ports, and ran software raid on them.

Certainly the software raid always has the advantage of being hardware
neutral.

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 15:20:13 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:20:13 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <20060618172333.GA12018-Xa+LbO3DC1G2Q0qicKDiVp4VBq8PJc8F@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <188338C5-C86C-4E44-B9F6-BFACF9D47550@visibleassets.com> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca> <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com> <20060618172333.GA12018@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060619152013.GC26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 01:23:33PM -0400, Robin Humble wrote:
> good points.
> however if I put the software raid machine on a UPS, run it with 2 or
> 4G of ram, and use SATA drives then I have all of the above don't I?
> 
> hmmm... plus or minus how happy Linux and mdadm is with hotswapping
> SATA drives - how well does that work these days?

At this time, I don't believe hotswap is implemented in libata yet, so
it is not supported yet for most sata controllers.  Once it is
supported, then the majority of sata controllers will allow it.  There
are some (including a few rather common intel chips) which will probably
never support hotswap due to design mistakes.

> you need a bit of chassis support, but that's trivial compared to
> traumas that the kernel might suffer if it's not happy with SATA drives
> coming and going.

It will eventually work.  I haven't seen an announcement of support yet,
only that it is being worked on by some people.

Certainly the 3ware cards support hotswap in their drivers (which are
not libata based, but simply scsi style drivers).

Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 15:22:23 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:22:23 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <20060618000605.GA10740@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca> <2993E3D7-B581-4B36-BA20-E8B7B4566C2E@visibleassets.com> <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <20060619152223.GD26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 01:52:47PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> A counterpoint: hardware RAID is too dependent on your hardware being 
> supported by the specific version of the kernel module. The MegaRAID 
> fiasco is a good example. I have two servers that have MegaRAID SCSI 
> controllers which were both running pre 2.6.9 kernels. I had added 
> some new drives to the machines and had reconfigured the RAID volumes 
> thus (knowingly) blowing away all the data on the drives. I figured I 
> might as well install a modern distro. Imagine my surprise to find 
> that my previously well-supported RAID controller was no longer 
> automatically detected. I tried various distros thinking that the 
> packagers of first one I tried might have screwed things up but none 
> I tried, other than distros running pre 2.6.9 kernels, detected any 
> volumes. A bit of digging and I found that for some reason, the 
> megaraid modules had been renamed and were no longer included, if 
> memory serves. We're not talking about some exotic or ancient 
> technology that could be deprecated without having much of an impact. 
> We're talking about one of the more popular SCSI RAID controllers on 
> the market. Fortunately, I had no data riding on this.

The megaraid mess is certainly mind bogling.  I have never seen an
explanation for what the heck happened there.  No other hardware raid
has ever gone through that in linux that I know of.

> During the course of searching for answers, I found some convincing 
> arguments as to why hardware RAID was potentially dangerous so I've 
> been happily using software RAID since. Performance? Don't know, 
> don't care. It's "fast enough" but I am reasonably sure now that a 
> kernel upgrade isn't going to render my machine unusable.

Certainly being hardware neutral has its advantages was your raid card
to fail.  Just stick the drives on another card and load the driver and
start the raid again.

> Why is a battery backup for the RAID controller necessary if you have 
> a good UPS and automated shutdown facility?

Idiot touching power switch? :)

Len Sorensen
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 15:27:52 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:27:52 +0000
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <200606182236.13120.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms>
	 <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>
	 <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F@visibleassets.com>
	 <200606182236.13120.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606190827w677901eci1711353e44df8213@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/19/06, CLIFFORD ILKAY <clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> As I explained above, I already have decent RAID cards, which I
> disable and subsequently use software RAID because it seems that
> kernel support for even popular cards can change without warning. My
> motivation clearly isn't cost since I already own the cards. Besides,
> I have seen all sorts of batteries fail. What makes the battery
> backup for your RAID card any more reliable than a UPS?

The on-card BBU does not need to depend on the entire chain:
  UPS -->
      Power Cable -->
         PSU -->
            Motherboard -->
               CPU, RAM, ...

It shortens the chain to:
  Battery --> RAID Cache

The failure of *any* of the components in the first chain will corrupt
the filesystem.

In the case of the RAID card with BBU, *none* of those are forcible
dependancies.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 16:05:09 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:05:09 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606190827w677901eci1711353e44df8213-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F@visibleassets.com> <200606182236.13120.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <d6d6637f0606190827w677901eci1711353e44df8213@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060619160509.GE26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 03:27:52PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:
> The on-card BBU does not need to depend on the entire chain:
>  UPS -->
>      Power Cable -->
>         PSU -->
>            Motherboard -->
>               CPU, RAM, ...
> 
> It shortens the chain to:
>  Battery --> RAID Cache
> 
> The failure of *any* of the components in the first chain will corrupt
> the filesystem.
> 
> In the case of the RAID card with BBU, *none* of those are forcible
> dependancies.

Certainly running write caching is not a good idea without a battery
backed cache.  And write caching on the disk itself should never be
enabled.  I don't trust UPSs that much.  To easy to overload and get a
fun surprise when a power glitch does happen. :)

Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 19 16:50:18 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:50:18 -0400
Subject: SATA Raid
In-Reply-To: <20060619160509.GE26953-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <D5D44A2470D5E444B429857F75A2708008A719FC@ms07.mse2.exchange.ms> <200606181352.48474.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <04178772-5413-4D12-B08D-CA95CA42EF1F@visibleassets.com> <200606182236.13120.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <d6d6637f0606190827w677901eci1711353e44df8213@mail.gmail.com> <20060619160509.GE26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <EAAFD342-A2D3-4D02-97B4-38F5697946B4@visibleassets.com>

Personally, as I said, my data is worth way more than the hardware it  
is residing on. This is why I buy high quality RAID cards, with BBU,  
and hot swap drives. This is proven technology, and the code base is  
much smaller than the kernel. The point being that there are less  
failure paths.

In the end it's your choice. I've made mine.

Dave
On 19-Jun-06, at 12:05 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 03:27:52PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:
>> The on-card BBU does not need to depend on the entire chain:
>>  UPS -->
>>      Power Cable -->
>>         PSU -->
>>            Motherboard -->
>>               CPU, RAM, ...
>>
>> It shortens the chain to:
>>  Battery --> RAID Cache
>>
>> The failure of *any* of the components in the first chain will  
>> corrupt
>> the filesystem.
>>
>> In the case of the RAID card with BBU, *none* of those are forcible
>> dependancies.
>
> Certainly running write caching is not a good idea without a battery
> backed cache.  And write caching on the disk itself should never be
> enabled.  I don't trust UPSs that much.  To easy to overload and get a
> fun surprise when a power glitch does happen. :)
>
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 02:31:10 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Senior Linux Sysadmin position in Hamilton
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606192226210.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

Hi all.  I have a lead on a senior Linux sysadmin position in a large firm 
in Hamilton.  Indications are that the pay rate and benefits are good.

The work is general Linux sysadmin and I understand the firm wants the 
right person to start asap.

If you are interested please contact Gary Petch 
<gpetch-T3tDgiMepIQByk/5VCeuVlaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> as he has all the details.

Don't contact me as I can't help.  I repeat don't contact me about this, 
contact Gary.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 02:09:24 2006
From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:09:24
Subject: Free computer: committed to gentleman
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060620020924.6ef71b62@mail.look.ca>

I cannot take time to answer all the people who sent me e-mails, so here is
a detailed general answer.

The couple working in my apartment building as assistant superintendents
have an old PC.

I think that it belongs to the wife, (Vanessa ?), who used to work for
Microsoft Canada in the Atlantic provinces.

She tried to sell the old PC by a flyer on the laundry room's bulletin board.

She failed. I forget the price she asked.

She took down the flyer, and said that they would just toss it into the
garbage bin behind the building.

I said that it was a shame, and that I would mention it on a couple of
e-mail groups.

I chose to announce it in the monthly meeting of:
   - TLUG: Toronto Linux User Group
     meeting at University of Toronto,
     Tuesday night (June 13th) at 7 pm.

No one was interested, but they suggested posting to their entire e-mail
group.

The husband was not at all impatient.

I interpreted the wife (Vanessa ?) as becoming impatient. I may have been
wrong. I am weak at interpreting emotions.

I decided to post it on two e-mail groups:
   - PCCT: Personal Computer Club of Toronto
   - TLUG: Toronto Linux User Group
and, as an afterthought, on:
   - HAPPEN: Halton and Peel Professionals and Executives Network.

I handled _-=ALL=-_ telephone calls before receiving e-mail.

I got a lot of telephone calls:
   - 00:10 12:10 am Ms. C C.
                    She was not home the first two times when I tried to call.
                    I did not leave a message the first time.
                    I left a message the second time.
                    When I called a third time, she denied making any such
call,
                    emphasized that she would NEVER call anyone
                    at ten minutes after midnight,
                    and stated that Bell Canada's Caller ID
                    must have malfunctioned.
   - 08:45  8:45 am Mrs. L. J. J.
                    She expressed interest, but said
                    that without a monitor it would be useless,
                    and that it was a long drive across Toronto,
                    and that it should go to someone desperate enough
                    to call after midnight.
                    She was extremely kind, helpful and generous
                    in giving advice on job search.
   - 10:13 10:13 am Mr. S. S.
                    He was not home when I tried to call.
                    I did not leave a message.
   - 10:51 10:51 am An anonymous woman at Parkwood Association.
                    I left a message with the man receptionist
                    that the PC was already committed.
   - 11:31 11:31 am Mr. B. M.
                    This was probably not about the PC.
                    He was not home when I tried to call.
                    I left a message that I was returning his call,
                    which was returning my two calls.
   - 12:18 12:18 pm Mr. C. M-S
                    As I was looking at the long list of callers
                    to plan the order to contact them,
                    this gentleman called, and I committed it to him.
   - 13:54  1:54 pm Mr. D. G.
                    I mentioned that I had already
                    committed it to someone else.
------------------------------------------------------------------
After I handled all the telephone calls detected by Bell Canada
Caller ID, I received my e-mail and found even more responses.

In total, possibly nearly two dozen people responded.

I do not have time to give individual e-mail answers to everyone.

I have already spent hours giving individual answers to everyone
who telephoned.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I originally stated: "Pick up as soon as possible:".

Case and contents:
   - Intel Pentium II, 350 MHz

   - 128 MB RAM

   - 6 GB hard drive

   - CD burner

   - NIC (network interface card)

Note:
   - This is the CASE and CONTENTS ONLY.
   - This DEFINITELY DOES NOT INCLUDE MONITOR,
     and almost certainly DOES NOT INCLUDE KEYBOARD or MOUSE.
   - I think that she will keep the MONITOR, KEYBOARD and MOUSE.

Note: I originally stated:
   - "Pick up from the area near 401 and Kennedy Road, Scarborough.
     Contact me for exact address. Give me your name and telephone number.".

Note:
   - At 5 pm, I gave to Vanessa the name and telephone numbers
     of Mr. C. M-S., who called at 12:18 pm.
   - At 8 pm, Vanessa still had not called him, so he called me.
   - At 10 pm, Vanessa and her husband did not answer my knocking on their
door.
   - I decided to try tomorrow.

If I had realized that this would take so much of my time, I might have
asked for some money.


James E. McIntosh   416-292-8126   <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org>


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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 14:53:40 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:53:40 -0400
Subject: Persistant smartd errors...
Message-ID: <20060620145340.GA6219@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

I originally posted this to the hardware list, but got no response, so
I'm trying it here, too.  Any input would be appreciated.

A few weeks ago I started seeing prefailure messages in my logwatch
emails - it appeared that my hard drive was failing.

I dutifully bought a new drive, reinstalled on it, and pulled my data
over.  I finally got around to setting up smartd again, and I see more
prefailure messages of the same ilk - on the new drive.  The old drive
is still plugged in, and it is not mounted, but monitored, and has begun 
showing Seek_Time_Performance errors (again) as well.  Here is an excerpt
of my logs as summarized by logwatch:

 --------------------- Smartd Begin ------------------------

 /dev/hda :
    Prefailure: Seek_Time_Performance (8) changed to
      246, 247, 246,
    Usage: Power_On_Hours (9) changed to
      250,

 /dev/hdb :
    Usage: Power_On_Hours (9) changed to
      236,

 /dev/hda :
    started scheduled Short self-test 1 Time(s)

 /dev/hdb :
    started scheduled Short self-test 1 Time(s)

 ---------------------- Smartd End -------------------------

hda is the new drive, and hdb is the old one.  I am wondering if I a)
have crappy luck and bought a replacement drive that is also barfing or
b) have some other component of my system that is messing with my hard
drives on my first IDE cable.

I am looking for advice, because I do not have a replacement motherboard
or power supply to swap in to see if that is the problem, and I cannot
afford both at this time.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.
-- 

yours,

William

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:07:29 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:07:29 -0400
Subject: Persistant smartd errors...
In-Reply-To: <20060620145340.GA6219-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060620145340.GA6219@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20060620150632.GF26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 10:53:40AM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I originally posted this to the hardware list, but got no response, so
> I'm trying it here, too.  Any input would be appreciated.
> 
> A few weeks ago I started seeing prefailure messages in my logwatch
> emails - it appeared that my hard drive was failing.
> 
> I dutifully bought a new drive, reinstalled on it, and pulled my data
> over.  I finally got around to setting up smartd again, and I see more
> prefailure messages of the same ilk - on the new drive.  The old drive
> is still plugged in, and it is not mounted, but monitored, and has begun 
> showing Seek_Time_Performance errors (again) as well.  Here is an excerpt
> of my logs as summarized by logwatch:
> 
>  --------------------- Smartd Begin ------------------------
> 
>  /dev/hda :
>     Prefailure: Seek_Time_Performance (8) changed to
>       246, 247, 246,
>     Usage: Power_On_Hours (9) changed to
>       250,
> 
>  /dev/hdb :
>     Usage: Power_On_Hours (9) changed to
>       236,
> 
>  /dev/hda :
>     started scheduled Short self-test 1 Time(s)
> 
>  /dev/hdb :
>     started scheduled Short self-test 1 Time(s)
> 
>  ---------------------- Smartd End -------------------------
> 
> hda is the new drive, and hdb is the old one.  I am wondering if I a)
> have crappy luck and bought a replacement drive that is also barfing or
> b) have some other component of my system that is messing with my hard
> drives on my first IDE cable.
> 
> I am looking for advice, because I do not have a replacement motherboard
> or power supply to swap in to see if that is the problem, and I cannot
> afford both at this time.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.

I am trying to figure out where in the above smartd there is anything
that looks like a problem.  I don't see any, unless the
Seek_Time_Performance is the problem.

Is the data cable OK?
What happens if you swap hda and hdb?
Could it be a problem with the controller that only affects the first port?
Are you running an 80wire cable?
Are you using cable select or master/slave?
What model are these drives?
What chipset is the ide controller part of?
Which kernel version is it?

Len Sorensen
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:17:28 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:17:28 -0400
Subject: PegaSoft - Dinner Meeting Postponed
Message-ID: <1150816648.3750.16.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

This month's dinner meeting has been postponed to next month--Tuesday,
July 17-- due to too many people being away.

Ken B.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:38:09 2006
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:38:09 -0400
Subject: LPIC exam
Message-ID: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>

Hi ,

Not sure who this goes to but when do you guys set up LPIC exams if you do
at all? I was told at the linux expo that you guys do at a discounted price.

Please let me know if you do and when is the next one :)
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:48:03 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:48:03 +0000
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606200848i552a26eam2b12d358e2b33410@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, Dave Germiquet <davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Not sure who this goes to but when do you guys set up LPIC exams if you do
> at all? I was told at the linux expo that you guys do at a discounted price.
>
> Please let me know if you do and when is the next one :)

"We" don't...

Matthew Rice, of Starnix, is involved with deployment of LPIC tests,
and Starnix occasionally arranges for discounted exam offerings.  I
believe that RealWorldLinux was one of those occasions.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:51:30 2006
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:51:30 -0400
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>

       Sorry bout that. My email was a bit confusing, but they mentioned
they do them but sometimes it gets arranged to be done for the TLUG at
specified times.

       So this is not the case? thank you.



On 6/20/06, Dave Germiquet <davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hi ,
>
> Not sure who this goes to but when do you guys set up LPIC exams if you do
> at all? I was told at the linux expo that you guys do at a discounted price.
>
> Please let me know if you do and when is the next one :)
>
>
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 15:57:56 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:57:56 +0000
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
	 <32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, Dave Germiquet <davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>        Sorry bout that. My email was a bit confusing, but they mentioned
> they do them but sometimes it gets arranged to be done for the TLUG at
> specified times.
>
>        So this is not the case? thank you.

At one time, Matthew Rice was the speaker coordinator for TLUG, which
would be where the association used to be.  Robert Brockway has taken
on that position on, so there's no longer as strong a tie to Starnix.

Matthew is quite likely on the mailing list; if he has plans for any
discounted LPIC offerings, that's certainly something for him to speak
to.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:08:02 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:08:02 -0400
Subject: Persistant smartd errors...
In-Reply-To: <20060620150632.GF26953-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060620145340.GA6219@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060620150632.GF26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060620160802.GA6394@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 11:07:29AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>>  --------------------- Smartd Begin ------------------------
>> 
>>  /dev/hda :
>>     Prefailure: Seek_Time_Performance (8) changed to
>>       246, 247, 246,

>I am trying to figure out where in the above smartd there is anything
>that looks like a problem.  I don't see any, unless the
>Seek_Time_Performance is the problem.

I guess it is the "Prefailure" part that is giving me pause.

>Is the data cable OK?

Difficult to say - I can swap it out and see.

>What happens if you swap hda and hdb?

I was getting the same errors when hdb was hda.

>Could it be a problem with the controller that only affects the first port?

Possibly, but I seem to be getting the same errors on hdb as well.

>Are you running an 80wire cable?

Don't know, sorry.

>Are you using cable select or master/slave?

Master/slave.  I can change this if it might help.

>What model are these drives?

160Gb Maxtors

hda: Maxtor 6L160P0, ATA DISK drive
hdb: Maxtor 6L160P0, ATA DISK drive


>What chipset is the ide controller part of?

Don't know - the motherboard is an Asus, VIA-based (I think) the CPU is
an Athlon 2Ghz - there is no SATA on the board, I believe.

>Which kernel version is it?

Linux $hostname 2.6.15-1-k7 #2 Mon Mar 6 15:42:39 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
-- 

yours,

William

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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:11:12 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:11:12 -0400
Subject: Cross-compiling for Linux on an ARM device
Message-ID: <1e55af990606200911g24fe7365o3f05f2f7c4a1496b@mail.gmail.com>

(I bet nobody saw this coming...)


I picked up a new toy, a Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000[1] and I've been
playing around with the different Linux distributions.  (I might even
break down and try Debian)

I'm interested in learning more about cross compiling [2] software
with this as the host architecture [3].

I realise that this is a _very_ hairy topic, but I wanted to beg some
sagely advice as to what tools exist and what I ought to learn.

It sounds like what I need to learn (for most software) begins with
cross-compiling with gcc.  Is this true?  Where else should I be
pointed?

I don't think I'm psychotic enough (right now) to develop my own
distribution, but certainly maintaining ARM/Zaurus ports is something
I can see myself doing.


Oh, and if anyone wants to goof around with it, I'm working on a
Zaurus user group to meet at the Linux Cafe and can do some demos.  So
far I can get Doom, Heretic and Quake running just fine.  I'm working
on various game emulators.  Oh, and I also hear there are some
productivity applications.  ;)


Bunches of notes:

[1] http://jrandomhacker.info/Sharp_Zaurus_SL-series
[1] http://jrandomhacker.info/Sharp_Zaurus_SL-C1000
[2] http://jrandomhacker.info/Cross-compiling
[3] http://jrandomhacker.info/Sharp_Zaurus_SL-C1000/hardware
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:16:22 2006
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 20 Jun 2006 12:16:22 -0400
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
	<32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

"Christopher Browne" <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> writes:
> Matthew is quite likely on the mailing list; if he has plans for any
> discounted LPIC offerings, that's certainly something for him to speak
> to.

Yes, we can do an exam session.  Space permitting.

Historically, we've done these at NewTLUG meetings but, if we can get the
room at UofT, we could do one there, too.

So, how about this:

    Aug 8 - TLUG
    Aug 22 - NewTLUG (not certain where it'll be - seneca @york or IBM)

I'll talk to Herb about room for the NewTLUG site.  Who should I speak with
about the TLUG meeting, though?


Also, send me an e-mail if you are interested as well as which exams.  If I
don't get any e-mails in the next week, I'll assume that there's no interest
in the session.

I'll get final price confirmation but they should be $50 CAD (GST included)
as they were last time.

Lastly, it's only the 101 and 102 exams that are available now.

Regards,
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>           starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:18:37 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:18:37 -0400
Subject: Cross-compiling for Linux on an ARM device
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606200911g24fe7365o3f05f2f7c4a1496b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606200911g24fe7365o3f05f2f7c4a1496b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1150820317.19409.152.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2006-20-06 at 12:11 -0400, Sy Ali wrote:
> (I bet nobody saw this coming...)
> 
> 
> I picked up a new toy, a Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000[1] and I've been
> playing around with the different Linux distributions.  (I might even
> break down and try Debian)
> 
> I'm interested in learning more about cross compiling [2] software
> with this as the host architecture [3].
> 
> I realise that this is a _very_ hairy topic, but I wanted to beg some
> sagely advice as to what tools exist and what I ought to learn.

You might post this on the KWLUG list.  One of the regulars there gave a
presentation on cross compiling (and is a Zaurus-type).
http://kwlug.org/taxonomy/term/39


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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:34:18 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:34:18 -0400
Subject: Cross-compiling for Linux on an ARM device
In-Reply-To: <1150820317.19409.152.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606200911g24fe7365o3f05f2f7c4a1496b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1150820317.19409.152.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606200934w3276fdfbo4419b4aa9ad33053@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, Interlug <interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You might post this on the KWLUG list.  One of the regulars there gave a
> presentation on cross compiling (and is a Zaurus-type).

Thanks.  I've subscribed and fired off a modified post to that group.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 16:48:47 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:48:47 -0400
Subject: Persistant smartd errors...
In-Reply-To: <20060620160802.GA6394-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060620145340.GA6219@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060620150632.GF26953@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060620160802.GA6394@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20060620164845.GA29007@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 12:08:02PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I guess it is the "Prefailure" part that is giving me pause.

According to this some maxtor models don't get along with smartd in some
cases and give incorrect warnings.
http://forum.ensim.com/showthread.php?t=12473&goto=nextnewest

Check that out and see if that helps perhaps.

Len Sorensen
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From jose-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 19:06:07 2006
From: jose-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:06:07 -0400
Subject: syslog.conf network messages
Message-ID: <4498471F.7070400@totaltravelmarketing.com>

Hi There

I've been looking at the man pages for syslog.conf, and I need to start 
tracing the messages divided by services and more importantly by device 
(network cards, drives, etc), but I am not sure how to do this.

any advice?

Jose
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From louiehui_xu-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 20:45:11 2006
From: louiehui_xu-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (hui xu)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <20060620204512.92536.qmail@web50812.mail.yahoo.com>

Could anybody tell me where has a good training course on linux admin?  a good trainning means not only for exam but can really learn something deep.
   
  Thanks!
  hui
   
   
   
  

"G. Matthew Rice" <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
  "Christopher Browne" writes:
> Matthew is quite likely on the mailing list; if he has plans for any
> discounted LPIC offerings, that's certainly something for him to speak
> to.

Yes, we can do an exam session. Space permitting.

Historically, we've done these at NewTLUG meetings but, if we can get the
room at UofT, we could do one there, too.

So, how about this:

Aug 8 - TLUG
Aug 22 - NewTLUG (not certain where it'll be - seneca @york or IBM)

I'll talk to Herb about room for the NewTLUG site. Who should I speak with
about the TLUG meeting, though?


Also, send me an e-mail if you are interested as well as which exams. If I
don't get any e-mails in the next week, I'll assume that there's no interest
in the session.

I'll get final price confirmation but they should be $50 CAD (GST included)
as they were last time.

Lastly, it's only the 101 and 102 exams that are available now.

Regards,
-- 
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phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 21:13:42 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:13:42 -0400
Subject: Becoming a sysadmin (was: LPIC exam)
Message-ID: <c241693f0606201413s314515dfld9131d3758536dcd@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, hui xu <louiehui_xu-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Could anybody tell me where has a good training course on linux admin?  a
> good trainning means not only for exam but can really learn something deep.
>

Do you use Linux at home every day? The first step to becoming a Linux
system administrator is to learn to use Linux.

The best way to do this is to delete the C:\WINDOWS directory from all
your computers. That way, you won't be tempted to use Windows anymore,
because you won't be able to.

Sorry to be pedantic but: Do you have Linux installed? Which distro?
Which version? How much have you used it? Did you have any problems
with it? Does it have support for all the things you enjoy doing on
your computer, including BitTorrent / LimeWire and DVD burning if
applicable? (P2P file sharing and video capabilities are the most
common requested features with Linux that are not set up by default on
most Linux distros.)

Also, list: Are commercial postings frowned upon on this list? I do
in-home / in-office Linux training throughout the GTA for a reasonable
fee.

Kind regards,
Jason

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
Specializing in Linux: Red Hat AS / ES, Debian, and others. We do Windows too.
Serving homes and companies globally via remote access tools. Fair flat rates.
Just send a note, phone 416-781-5938, or call Skype ID jasonspiro.
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 20 21:16:43 2006
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Becoming a sysadmin (was: LPIC exam)
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606201413s314515dfld9131d3758536dcd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606201413s314515dfld9131d3758536dcd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50385.207.188.65.48.1150838203.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>



> The best way to do this is to delete the C:\WINDOWS directory from all
> your computers. That way, you won't be tempted to use Windows anymore,
> because you won't be able to.

I've found this isn't necessary. Just leave it to its own devices and it
corrupts itself out of existence.

;)

Peter

-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 04:37:15 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 00:37:15 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
Message-ID: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Does anyone have any experience making a
Netgear WG511 wireless card (PCMCIA) work
with Linux?  Thus far, I haven't even managed
to get Linux to acknowledge that the card exists.

Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
in Linux?

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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 04:54:34 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 00:54:34 -0400
Subject: Looking for St.Catharines/Niagara Linux contacts
Message-ID: <4498D10A.9060608@telly.org>

I'm trying to find people involved with LUGs in the Niagara region.
www.niagaralug.org, which was once used for a LUG in the area, is now
owned by a squatter.
Any contact info is appreciated.

Thanks!

- Evan

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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 05:54:57 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:54:57 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP04D2D24CB596B8555B586BB2840@CEZ.ICE>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience making a
> Netgear WG511 wireless card (PCMCIA) work
> with Linux?  Thus far, I haven't even managed
> to get Linux to acknowledge that the card exists.
> 
> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
> in Linux?

I have one that works, but it is a version 1 card. You can check to see 
if yours is version 1 or 2 by finding the place of manufacture printed 
on the card. If it says Taiwan it is a version 1 card that uses Prism/GT 
drivers and is supported out of the box. If it says China it is version 
2 and uses SoftMAC for firmware vs. version 1 which uses FullMAC (I 
think that's what the problem is, not exactly sure what it means 
though!). Version 2 might well use prism/gt, but because of the firmware 
issue, the prism driver just doesn't work properly. Seems work is being 
done (http://prism54.org), but that doesn't help you right now.

For more on the v1, v2, soft/full mac thing:
http://prism54.org/pipermail/prism54-devel/2004-September/001983.html

If, as I suspect, yours is a made in China or explicitly says v2, have 
you tried using ndiswrapper and the windows drivers? That might do you 
quite well.

Jamon
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 10:49:54 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:49:54 -0400
Subject: Webcam recommendations
Message-ID: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

Hi all,

I'm looking for a web cam.  Must have USB interface, work with Linux and
have the ability to store pictures, unattended, when movement occurs.
Can anyone offer a recommendation?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 19 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
--
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 12:13:28 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:13:28 -0400
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
Message-ID: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com>

Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?

There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I  
can't remember the name ?

Dave
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 12:27:22 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:27:22 -0700
Subject: Looking for St.Catharines/Niagara Linux contacts
In-Reply-To: <4498D10A.9060608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4498D10A.9060608@telly.org>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606210527l7b2b967m1f78710844c8b4af@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm trying to find people involved with LUGs in the Niagara region.
> www.niagaralug.org, which was once used for a LUG in the area, is now
> owned by a squatter.
> Any contact info is appreciated.

Ken Burtch is from that part of the world; you might have a chat with him...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 12:30:56 2006
From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:30:56 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
Message-ID: <44993C00.70207@rogers.com>

Jamon Camisso wrote:

> If it says China it is version 2 and uses SoftMAC for firmware vs. 
> version 1 which uses FullMAC (I think that's what the problem is, not 
> exactly sure what it means though!). Version 2 might well use 
> prism/gt, but because of the firmware issue, the prism driver just 
> doesn't work properly. Seems work is being done (http://prism54.org), 
> but that doesn't help you right now.
According to Linux Watch, Softmac support has been incorporated into the 
latest stable kernel version (Linux 2.6.17). Also included in this 
release are drivers for the Broadcom 43xx series of cards. More here:

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS3690656353.html



John

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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:01:24 2006
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 21 Jun 2006 09:01:24 -0400
Subject: Looking for St.Catharines/Niagara Linux contacts
In-Reply-To: <4498D10A.9060608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4498D10A.9060608@telly.org>
Message-ID: <lvslly7jdn.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> writes:
> I'm trying to find people involved with LUGs in the Niagara region.
> www.niagaralug.org, which was once used for a LUG in the area, is now
> owned by a squatter.
> Any contact info is appreciated.

Try Trevor Twining.  He was an active Linux guy and, I think, one of the
founders of a Niagara area lug.

trevor dot twining dash cogeco dot ca
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>           starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:05:25 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:05:25 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <20060621130525.GA9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 12:37:15AM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience making a
> Netgear WG511 wireless card (PCMCIA) work
> with Linux?  Thus far, I haven't even managed
> to get Linux to acknowledge that the card exists.
> 
> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
> in Linux?

Do you have pcmcia support working on your system?

Which revision is the wifi card?  According to this site
http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_part.php?brandname=Netgear
Most revisions can work with linux, but the marvell based one can not
(no surprise there).

Apparently there are 2 different v2 cards, one of which works well, one
of which is hard to make work, and then the marvell which is imposible.
This is worse than usual for a network equipment company.  Now they use
the same model and revision on different hardware.  I think this is a
good time to declare netgear off limits for purchases of new hardware.
:)

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:07:40 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:07:40 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <4498DF31.1030209-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca> <4498DF31.1030209@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060621130740.GB9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:54:57AM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> I have one that works, but it is a version 1 card. You can check to see 
> if yours is version 1 or 2 by finding the place of manufacture printed 
> on the card. If it says Taiwan it is a version 1 card that uses Prism/GT 
> drivers and is supported out of the box. If it says China it is version 
> 2 and uses SoftMAC for firmware vs. version 1 which uses FullMAC (I 
> think that's what the problem is, not exactly sure what it means 
> though!). Version 2 might well use prism/gt, but because of the firmware 
> issue, the prism driver just doesn't work properly. Seems work is being 
> done (http://prism54.org), but that doesn't help you right now.
> 
> For more on the v1, v2, soft/full mac thing:
> http://prism54.org/pipermail/prism54-devel/2004-September/001983.html
> 
> If, as I suspect, yours is a made in China or explicitly says v2, have 
> you tried using ndiswrapper and the windows drivers? That might do you 
> quite well.

Apparently china v2's require islsm (difficult to make work), while
taiwan v2's are simple to make work.

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:09:04 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:09:04 -0400
Subject: Webcam recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20060621104954.GA23280-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20060621130904.GC9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 06:49:54AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> I'm looking for a web cam.  Must have USB interface, work with Linux and
> have the ability to store pictures, unattended, when movement occurs.
> Can anyone offer a recommendation?

Motion detection and storage is your computer/software's problem, not
the webcam.

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:30:04 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:30:04 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Webcam recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20060621130904.GC9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
 <20060621130904.GC9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <pdhe.p@xtgqj.vfrdv.iiupi.up>


On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 06:49:54AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
>> I'm looking for a web cam.  Must have USB interface, work with Linux and
>> have the ability to store pictures, unattended, when movement occurs.
>> Can anyone offer a recommendation?
>
> Motion detection and storage is your computer/software's problem, not
> the webcam.

Not true, but this is the simple answer. Gear such as Neil needs exists, 
and some USB cameras can be programmed to work as he needs them to.

Peter
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From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:32:40 2006
From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Tom Watts)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:32:40 -0400
Subject: Fedora fonts
Message-ID: <44994A78.2000604@uoguelph.ca>

I recently reinstalled Fedora Core 5 and somewhere along the 
lines of applying updates and configuring things, the fonts 
changed.  It's not just each application, it's globally across 
the gnome desktop.  Checking fonts under preferences doesn't help 
so I'm wondering if anyone can help me find the fonts I'm looking 
for since I am clueless when it comes to fonts on Linux.  Any 
help would be great since I've always been satisfied with the 
default that Fedora offers and have never had to tweak this sort 
of thing before.

Thanks,
-- 
Tom Watts
wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:34:48 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:34:48 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1150896888.3732.53.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

On Sun, 2006-06-18 at 23:44 -0400, Alex Beamish wrote:
> On 6/17/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>         This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a
>         programmer.
> 
> Hi Ken, 
> 

Hello Alex,

Thanks for your comments.

My article was on dealing with rejection and the low self-esteem caused
by rejection.  It was not talking about how to deal with HR or how to
get hired.  My advice at the end was on what to do in spite of how HR
might treat you, and to do it for yourself and your self-esteem.

By talking about beating HR at their own game, you make it sound like IT
professionals can avoid rejection and if a person suffers rejection,
that it must be their fault for not playing the game properly.  I'm not
sure if that's what you meant.  I believe that rejection is inherently a
part of the current IT industry and hiring process.  Professionals need
to be aware of the emotional and psychological skills needed to deal
with that rejection, which are unfortunately seldom taught.

However, if you want to talk about HR...

> Dealing with HR is quite a challenge. They seem to be quite nice
> people, but their job seems to be a really, really different job than
> what computer geeks do. I think in order to make that meeting with HR
> work, you have to play their game. You'll need the following Important
> Items:

Programmers work with logic all day and sometimes use logic to try to
solve inherently illogical problems.  "The game" of HR people is that
they are called upon to judge someone without sufficient data, which is
inherently irrational.  They create they're own groundless ideas to
justify their decisions.  Since each HR person has their own unique
game, it's impossible to beat them at their own game since you don't
know what the game was until the interview is complete.

> [] Haircut, facial hair trimmed (men only);
> [] The nicest clothes that you still feel comfortable in;
> [] A briefcase if necessary;
> [] Decent shoes; and
> [] A positive 'Sales' attitude.

None of these will score points with HR people.  You walk in with a
beard, and the HR person says (illogically), "Beards mean he's hiding
his face so that means he's untrustworthy...rejected."  "His clothes are
not what my friends wear, he's a rebel...rejected."  "A briefcase can be
used to steal company secrets...rejected."  You're dealing with random,
illogical people.  There is no defense when you're walking cold into
this kind of situation.

Most advice dealing with HR boils down to: "say and do as little as
possible to give them no data on you to make their illogical
conclusions.  Be as bland as a potato because you cannot know beforehand
what criteria you'll be judged on."  Which is the opposite of what an
interview is supposed to be about.

How can a person have a good sales attitude if they have been rejected
so much they no longer believe in themselves?  This is why I wrote the
article.  You can't sell what you don't believe in, especially yourself.

> As another poster mentioned, a job interview is a meeting to see if
> you're a good fit for the company, and if the company's a good fit for
> you. Both parties are selling, and both parties are buying. This is no
> place for "Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover".

How egotistical does one have to be to believe that the parties are on
equal footing?  Putting my quote from "The Word" in context, Wheeler
(the corrupt publisher) confronts Randall (who's uncovered the truth).
Randall says that Wheeler's meeting him because Randall known too much
and they need to negotiate.  Wheeler responds, "...for all your
pretensions of high-mindedness and brain power, you're g***** stupid.
Your opposition would mean nothing to us, would amount to no more than
the inaudible croakings of a small frog in a big pond."  Does anyone
actually believe that an interview is about a two-party negotiation?
The company is trying to fill a hole in the organization tree, and
anybody will do...it doesn't have to be the best candidate and it
doesn't matter if the candidate fits provided the HR people go through
the _appearance_ of doing a job to ensure fit...a job the reality of
which they cannot do.

As I wrote in January, "You can't judge a book by its cover, even if you
measure the cover, have more than one person look at the cover, or are
so lazy that you pay someone to chose a cover for you. People are too
complex to label so superficially."  It's not possible to judge
"fitness" in a job interview, particularly when fitness has to do with
how one interacts with people who are not even at the interview, under
circumstances which cannot be duplicated during the interview. 

I was interviewed for an advanced tech support job at VMWare.  I made it
through three tiers of interviews, got along well with all the team
members I would be working with, demonstrated my Linux expertise and I
could handle the work.  The final interview was with the boss.  He
looked over my recent work on my resume and said, "But you're a
programmer.  You're the wrong kind of person for this job."  His
decision that I wouldn't fit was totally illogical and in defiance of
the facts: I mean, how could I clear three tiers of interviews as a
"plumber" applying for "airline pilot" job, as he implied.  Quite
clearly I had the skills and the fit.  My final thought was, "How did
this idiot get to be a manager at a respectable company?  Guys like that
make companies like VMWare look bad."

The point is there was nothing I could do to thwart that kind of gold
medal il-logic.

[snip]

> Anyway, I'm just hoping my next employer is small enough that they
> don't have an HR department, so I can skip that part of the hiring
> process altogether. (I'm not looking for a job -- I'm just saying.)
> I'd rather drink beer with a bunch of techies and see if we can work
> together, rather than sit a chair with a glass of water in a really
> artificial social situation, trying to make my way through the maze of
> HR-type questions.
> 
> I just wonder what it's like for an HR person to go through the same
> thing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that.

I agree.

> -- 
> Alex Beamish
> Toronto, Ontario
> ps Good luck, if you're still looking.

I'm employed, but we all need all the luck we can get.

KB

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:43:36 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:43:36 -0400
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
> 
> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I  
> can't remember the name ?

Hi Dave,

I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but I've
always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.

Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.  
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910


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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:45:21 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:45:21 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <44994D71.7000200@alteeve.com>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
> in Linux?

I've been using the Belkin USB2 card for over a year now on Debian and 
Ubuntu (5.10 and 6.06) with no problems at all.

Madison
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 13:54:43 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:54:43 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <1150590312.4212.18.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <1150590312.4212.18.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <1150898083.3732.63.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

Sorry for the late reply.  Thanks for the comments.
KB

On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 20:25 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> Ouch, I feel for you Ken but I wouldn't put too much value in HR people.
> Many of them have meaningless degrees in irrelevant subjects and are
> often hired for their looks to dress up the office. You were simply at
> the wrong company.

> [snip]

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:05:33 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:05:33 -0400
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <1150897416.19409.232.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com> <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10@visibleassets.com>

Hey,

Thanks, actually I"m looking for something a little more integrated.  
I've seen the Dallas stuff.

What I"m looking for is referred to as a host security module.

The end result is I want to create a Timestamp Authority. I've tried  
mod_tsa, but I get errors using the module.

Dave
On 21-Jun-06, at 9:43 AM, Interlug wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
>>
>> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I
>> can't remember the name ?
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but I've
> always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.
>
> Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:05:56 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:05:56 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <44993C00.70207-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44993C00.70207@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP10C4A56681CA73FEF341FFB2840@CEZ.ICE>

John McGregor wrote:
> Jamon Camisso wrote:
> 
>> If it says China it is version 2 and uses SoftMAC for firmware vs. 
>> version 1 which uses FullMAC (I think that's what the problem is, not 
>> exactly sure what it means though!). Version 2 might well use 
>> prism/gt, but because of the firmware issue, the prism driver just 
>> doesn't work properly. Seems work is being done (http://prism54.org), 
>> but that doesn't help you right now.
> According to Linux Watch, Softmac support has been incorporated into the 
> latest stable kernel version (Linux 2.6.17). Also included in this 
> release are drivers for the Broadcom 43xx series of cards. More here:
> 
> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS3690656353.html

Yeah, I saw that. I was more intetested in the ext3 performance increase 
than working wireless since mine has been fully supported for ages. 
You've spurred me on, I'm tweaking my 2.6.16 .config for 2.6.17 as I 
send this.

Jamon
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:45:27 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:45:27 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44995B87.8030303@telly.org>

Alex Beamish wrote:

> On 6/17/06, *Ken Burtch* <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org 
> <mailto:kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>> wrote:
>
>     This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a
>     programmer.
>
Hi Ken,

I don't think what you've gone through is in any way restricted to the 
IT field. I also have a few comments about what you said, and about 
Alex's response.

>     "In 2005, I went for a job interview at a company in Niagara area
>     which manufacturers equipment for dentists. The receptionist said
>     I was the most polite and pleasant candidate they had interviewed.
>     I walked into the meeting room to talk with the HR person. With
>     too much make-up, over-styled hair and flirty-but-fashionable
>     clothes, she looked like someone who wanted to be a regular on
>     "Sex in the City". "Our company," she said, "has offices in major
>     American cities." You could almost hear her add, "And I won't be
>     stuck in this backwater dump for long." She looked me
>     over--overweight, glasses and balding--and immediately turned
>     cold. I wasn't one of those handsome TV guys. I was a computer
>     geek applying for a computer geek job. Interviewing me didn't fit
>     with her plans for becoming Somebody..."
>
I have to say that the irony in the above paragraph floored me. You're 
complaining about the superficiality and lack of depth of the HR people, 
yet you above have been more than generous with your own negative 
stereotypes and assumptions.

She sized you up and you sized her up, and the interview went downhill 
from there. If your attitude in the interview reflected your first 
impressions as stated above, you may have subtly come across as 
disinterested as you said she was.

You're not applying for a job as a salesman. If the job is in 
programming or sysadmin you'll spend more time around computers than 
people, and your contact with most of your co-workers except for your 
direct team will be by phone or email. Looks count in the interview to 
indicate one's level of interest in the job, but hiring someone for IT 
(or, for that matter, any job in operations or production) uses a 
different set of criteria than for someone who is the company's face to 
clients or the public.

This is, of course, not to say that your Niagara HR person _wasn't_ 
incompetent -- but it was hard to say from your description if that was 
the case. Since you seemed so disgusted with the way she looked and 
acted, why complain when the favour is returned?

> [] Haircut, facial hair trimmed (men only);
> [] The nicest clothes that you still feel comfortable in;
> [] A briefcase if necessary;
> [] Decent shoes; and
> [] A positive 'Sales' attitude.

I'd agree with all except the briefcase, unless you have it chock-filled 
with code samples or reference letters that you think you'll need. Most 
can be carried in a small portfolio.

> After over twenty years of working on the software industry, I'm still 
> not sure what the right answers are to some of those HR stumpers:
>
> [] Where do you want to be in five years? (I don't know .. In Madrid? 
> Driving a truck? Five years older?)

They're trying to see if you have any vision for yourself deeper than 
next week. It's also a deliberately obscure question designed to get at 
more of you as an individual. There are lots of programmers out there 
who have good code samples and they may be looking to separate the 
candidates based on non-technical qualities. In some companies an 
ability to work to deadline, for example, is more important than the 
sheer brilliance of your code. And you know that they're trying to avoid 
anti-social BOFH types.

They also want to get a sense that you won't continue to be playing the 
job market the moment you walk in the door. Most companies make 
investments in their employees in various ways, and some sense that 
you're not _obviously_ using them as a three month stepping stone is 
probably helpful.

> [] Why do you want to work here? (Because you'll pay me?)

They want to see if you've done any research into who they are.

> [] Who's your hero? (Grace Hopper? Steve Wozniak?)

Also a gauge of character, partly in the content of your answer and 
partly how you react to being put on the spot.
"My father" is a perfectly acceptable answer if it's applicable.

> [] What's the accomplishment you're most proud of? (A dual mode 
> communications module implemented using a state machine with function 
> pointers, written using Object Oriented C .. are you OK? Do you need a 
> glass of water?)

They're literally giving you an opportunity to sell yourself. It's also 
another character test, in that such a description may force you to 
describe a technical task in non-technical terms -- are you up to it?

> [] Tell me about the last book you read. (Hint: Nothing from O'Reilly 
> -- they mean something that had a plot.)

Not necessarily a plot, just something that's not a computer manual. 
Non-fiction and humour books are fine.

> I'm left-brained -- that means that when someone asks me an HR-type 
> question, I usually have to stop and think about an answer. One way to 
> prepare for that is to have someone bombard you with HR type questions 
> -- you have to be ready to tell a story in 30 seconds that answers 
> that question. A yes or a no won't do it -- and a five minute 
> discourse on Captain Kirk vs. Captian Picard won't do it either.

I agree, to an extent. Attitude counts for a lot, especially for those 
interviews in which they're counting for you to be caught off-guard and 
being able to react quickly to the unexpected. Answering everything with 
a too-rehearsed canned answer is only marginally better than being 
totally dumbstruck.

> Anyway, I'm just hoping my next employer is small enough that they 
> don't have an HR department, so I can skip that part of the hiring 
> process altogether.

That works, but it also means that your avenues of movement within the 
company will be limited.

> (I'm not looking for a job -- I'm just saying.) I'd rather drink beer 
> with a bunch of techies and see if we can work together, rather than 
> sit a chair with a glass of water in a really artificial social 
> situation, trying to make my way through the maze of HR-type questions.

Ah, but that beer in the pub won't tell the employer how you react to 
stress, or how well you can work in a team or take instruction. It also 
won't tell you how your drinking buddies will act when they're jerks on 
the job. There's a good side to interviews have their share of worst 
case scenarios, so you know ahead of time how bad it can be.

- Evan

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From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:47:56 2006
From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:47:56 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>


I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few 
thermal issues.
I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know 
what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?

Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan 
at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you 
in advance!






.












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From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:48:27 2006
From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:48:27 -0400
Subject: colocation
Message-ID: <17af13780606210748l143f865dla74b78b558ccf3dc@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm, it seems the mailing list is "closed" (only subscribers can post)?
If yes this ought to be mentioned on the wiki.

I am looking for a good cheap colocation facility in TO.
Currently I am looking at this one:

http://www.3z.ca/

I'll be grateful for any tips positive or negative.

i
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:58:17 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:58:17 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP12ED5BCE71743B8311194AB2840@CEZ.ICE>

teddy mills wrote:
> 
> I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few 
> thermal issues.
> I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know 
> what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
> 
> Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan 
> at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you 
> in advance!

Ubuntu, SuSE, Fedora Core 5, Mandriva, and a few others would be your 
best options (no particular order for those first 4). Thermal & power 
settings are in the kernel, so you should be fine with almost any distro 
sporting a modular or at least intelligently compiled kernel.

Have you tried a distro on your laptop yet? I've found that the converse 
of what you've experienced is true: Linux managed to get my laptop fans 
working exactly the way they were supposed to, on at 50*C, speed 2 @ 
60*C, 3 @ 65 etc. etc. Different laptops different temps, but you get 
the idea. There are also some laptops with fans that can be controlled 
through software applications on Linux too. Dell Inspirons come to mind, 
not sure if they are currently, but the whole 8000 series was I think.

Jamon
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From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 14:58:17 2006
From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:58:17 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <200606211058.18054.jason@detachednetworks.ca>

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 10:47, teddy mills wrote:
> I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
> thermal issues.
> I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know
> what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
>
> Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan
> at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you
> in advance!

Ubuntu Dapper - 6.06 works flawlessly on my laptop. Power management, 
performance profiles, hibernate, suspend to ram all work fine.

Acer TravelMate 4400
AMD Turion ML30 64bit

I have also installed it on many other laptops with the same results.


-- 
Jason Shein
Director of Networking, Operations and Systems
Detached Networks
jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org
( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice
( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile
http://www.detachednetworks.ca
On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7
--
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:00:34 2006
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:00:34 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <1150896888.3732.53.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1150896888.3732.53.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <f9870c010606210800l1b0fdbe8gc8a3a0de25d2fbe6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 2006-06-18 at 23:44 -0400, Alex Beamish wrote:
> > On 6/17/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >         This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a
> >         programmer.
>
> How can a person have a good sales attitude if they have been rejected
> so much they no longer believe in themselves?  This is why I wrote the
> article.  You can't sell what you don't believe in, especially yourself.


I agree, you can't sell what you don't believe in. Here's my thinking.

While I may have made a few blunders along the way, my career does have a
few highlights, and I have written (and maintained) some pretty cool code.
Therefore, I believe I'm pretty good at writing and maintaining code. I've
also led a few technical seminars and mentored a few programmers in my time.
Therefore, I presume to be a Senior Programming guy.

On that basis, I feel comfortable going in a selling myself as a Senior
Programming person to someone who has a suitable opening. My confidence
doesn't extend to striking up conversations on the subway and passing out
business cards on Bloor St. .. but I can present lots of evidence that I
know my way around software, and that's what I'm selling.

After that, if they don't like my personality, or if I pick up on a bad vibe
at the employer, then it may not be possible to close the deal .. but I'm
confident that I can sell my technical side without a problem.

I was interviewed for an advanced tech support job at VMWare.  I made it
> through three tiers of interviews, got along well with all the team
> members I would be working with, demonstrated my Linux expertise and I
> could handle the work.  The final interview was with the boss.  He
> looked over my recent work on my resume and said, "But you're a
> programmer.  You're the wrong kind of person for this job."  His
> decision that I wouldn't fit was totally illogical and in defiance of
> the facts: I mean, how could I clear three tiers of interviews as a
> "plumber" applying for "airline pilot" job, as he implied.  Quite
> clearly I had the skills and the fit.  My final thought was, "How did
> this idiot get to be a manager at a respectable company?  Guys like that
> make companies like VMWare look bad."
>
> The point is there was nothing I could do to thwart that kind of gold
> medal il-logic.


Interesting .. this reminds me of an interview I had twenty years ago at
Gellman (dot) Hayward, a decent sized consulting firm long since swallowed
by the CGI borg (and I mean that in the nicest way possible). They had a
three tier hierarchy, with partners at the top, associates in the middle and
consultants at the bottom. This was a gang of very bright people.

Instead of going from the bottom up, they *started* with an interview with
the partner. Expecting a 15-20 minute interview, I was one on one with a
partner for close to 90 minutes. This was a very sharp guy with 30 years
experience, and I was exhausted at the end.

The second interview was with two associates .. I took the subway downtown
for the interview and ended up 10 minutes late because there was a stoppage.
Fortunately, one of the associates had been on the same train, so that got
things going on the right foot. The two associates then bounced me back and
forth like a ping pong ball, throwing questions in and interrupting me. It
was quite an education, and I got my Dear John letter shortly after that.
The third interview would have been with another consultant, if I'd made it
that far.

I agree, it seems a waste of time for you to go through three technical
interviews only to have a manager look at your resume and bounce you from
consideration on what sounds like technical grounds. In hindsight, I guess
you could have smiled and mentioned that the three groups you'd met with
already within his organization had been very happy with your technical
skills .. and then led the conversation onto happier topics.

Job interviews seem to be a bit like speed-dating .. in a few minutes you've
got to convey a lot of information and get to know the other party as well
as possible. Under those circumstances, I think the only way to survive is
to learn and practise sound bites, rather than do the improv thing when the
HR person starts in with the "What kind of tree would you be?" questions.

It's an interesting topic. And all I know about speed-dating is what I
picked up from the movies.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:02:14 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
 <32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>
 <d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c@mail.gmail.com>
 <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211058380.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, G. Matthew Rice wrote:

> So, how about this:
>
>    Aug 8 - TLUG
>    Aug 22 - NewTLUG (not certain where it'll be - seneca @york or IBM)
>
> I'll talk to Herb about room for the NewTLUG site.  Who should I speak with
> about the TLUG meeting, though?

Me :)  I've added a note to the page to indicate an LPIC exam may be held 
at the meeting.  Please note we do have a speaker for this meeting but I 
don't have a problem with running the exam before the talk (preferable 
to after IMHO).

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:02:32 2006
From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <20060621150232.7721.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- teddy mills <lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote: 
> I have no problem with running Linux on desktops
> because there are few 
> thermal issues.
> I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops,
> because I do not know 
> what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level
> control?
> 
> Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns
> on a laptop cpu fan 
> at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is
> getting
> Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on
> a laptop? Thank you 
> in advance!

I am currently running Debian Etch on my laptop (an
admittedly slow Pentium III 600), no problem. I know
the Ubuntu people boast about the strength of their
laptop support, and you might want to look at them.

As for fan use, with my laptop that is a BIOS
function. In the BIOS I can specify fan usage to be
battery optimized (use as little as possible, and if
that hurts performance, so be it), or I can select
performance optimized (use as often as required to get
max. performance, and if that hurts battery life so be
it).

So, periodically (like if I know I am going to be away
from electrical outlets for a while) I will change the
fan (and CPU speed, screen brightness, etc.) settings.

Colin McGregor
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:02:52 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:52 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <44995B87.8030303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44995B87.8030303@telly.org>
Message-ID: <1150902172.5443.7.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:45 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Alex Beamish wrote:
> 
> > On 6/17/06, *Ken Burtch* <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org 
> > <mailto:kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     This month I talk about dealing with depression if you are a
> >     programmer.
> >
> Hi Ken,
> 
> I don't think what you've gone through is in any way restricted to the 
> IT field. I also have a few comments about what you said, and about 
> Alex's response.
> 
> >     "In 2005, I went for a job interview at a company in Niagara area
> >     which manufacturers equipment for dentists. The receptionist said
> >     I was the most polite and pleasant candidate they had interviewed.
> >     I walked into the meeting room to talk with the HR person. With
> >     too much make-up, over-styled hair and flirty-but-fashionable
> >     clothes, she looked like someone who wanted to be a regular on
> >     "Sex in the City". "Our company," she said, "has offices in major
> >     American cities." You could almost hear her add, "And I won't be
> >     stuck in this backwater dump for long." She looked me
> >     over--overweight, glasses and balding--and immediately turned
> >     cold. I wasn't one of those handsome TV guys. I was a computer
> >     geek applying for a computer geek job. Interviewing me didn't fit
> >     with her plans for becoming Somebody..."
> >
> I have to say that the irony in the above paragraph floored me. You're 
> complaining about the superficiality and lack of depth of the HR people, 
> yet you above have been more than generous with your own negative 
> stereotypes and assumptions.
> 
> She sized you up and you sized her up, and the interview went downhill 
> from there. If your attitude in the interview reflected your first 
> impressions as stated above, you may have subtly come across as 
> disinterested as you said she was.

I never said that I treated her differently because of her attitude or
appearance...why are you saying that I did?  Are you saying that all
people are prejudiced?

> This is, of course, not to say that your Niagara HR person _wasn't_ 
> incompetent -- but it was hard to say from your description if that was 
> the case. Since you seemed so disgusted with the way she looked and 
> acted, why complain when the favour is returned?

Thank you, Evan.  You're ability to colour things to your own opinion is
most impressive. ;-)  When you want to comment on what I said instead of
making stuff up, let me know.

KB

> - Evan
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:03:37 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:03:37 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <44995C1C.7020003-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 10:47:56AM -0400, teddy mills wrote:
>
>I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few 
>thermal issues.
>I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know 
>what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
>I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
>
>Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan 
>at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
>Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you 
>in advance!

I would think that it is not so much a distro issue as it is laptop
compatibility issue, with a side order of configured-out-of-the-box ease
of use.

I have heard that Ubuntu and its variants are quite good, but I have no
personal experience with it|them.  I run Debian on my Thinkpad 600X, and
I have found it excellent.  It is an older laptop, and so I run apm
rather than ACPI, but it seems to do a fine job - but it's an older
laptop, so I may not actually encounter thermal issues.  What I can say
is that the battery lasts six times longer under Linux than it did on
Windoze, when I was dual-booting it.

These days there are a large number of distros that come with live CD
counterparts - run them as a live CD and test.
-- 

yours,

William

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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:13:12 2006
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 21 Jun 2006 11:13:12 -0400
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211058380.11861-li5fIuchzwS0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
	<32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<lvfyhzkdk9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211058380.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <lvlkrq35kn.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

Robert Brockway <rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org> writes:
> > I'll talk to Herb about room for the NewTLUG site.  Who should I speak
> > with about the TLUG meeting, though?
> 
> Me :)  I've added a note to the page to indicate an LPIC exam may be held at
> the meeting.  Please note we do have a speaker for this meeting but I don't
> have a problem with running the exam before the talk (preferable to after
> IMHO).

Before is fine.  At NewTLUG, we've done them in a separate room, parallel
with the actual meeting.  Either is fine.
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>           starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:15:38 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [NTL] Re:LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <lvlkrq35kn.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <32f6a8880606200838s1ced9830y883b303a1bfddd10@mail.gmail.com>
 <32f6a8880606200851p6aa553f0x3be1a4c92d24cadc@mail.gmail.com>
 <d6d6637f0606200857m27ec178bu457eed792fe7b9c@mail.gmail.com>
 <lvfyhzkdk9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211058380.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>
 <lvlkrq35kn.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211114430.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, G. Matthew Rice wrote:

> Before is fine.  At NewTLUG, we've done them in a separate room, parallel
> with the actual meeting.  Either is fine.

No problem.  I'm not sure we can get a 2nd room at U of T so this is why I 
was suggesting running it before.  Watch this space :)

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 15:24:24 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:24:24 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010606210800l1b0fdbe8gc8a3a0de25d2fbe6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1150896888.3732.53.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606210800l1b0fdbe8gc8a3a0de25d2fbe6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1150903464.4882.16.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

Having a large corporation (IBM...etc.) on your resume is a great
'status symbol' but with the number of interviews required to land a job
increasing it is worth considering a smaller business or startup if your
budget can take the uncertainty. The long term payoff can be huge.
Enduring only a few kicks at the can interviewing with large
corporations can destroy your self worth not to mention the enormous
waste of time and energy. It is interesting to note that many large
corporations were once startups and the executive were essentially
'cowboys' running by the seat of their pants on some sort of VC. The
employees large corporations hire ensure the 'cowboy executive' has long
term wealth while limiting the employee's earning potential. Larger
corporations do not guarantee the same lifelong job security they once
had.
RickT 

http://www.TorontoNUI.ca

On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 11:00 -0400, Alex Beamish wrote:
>         expertise and I
>         could handle the work.  The final interview was with the
>         boss.  He
>         looked over my recent work on my resume and said, "But you're
>         a
>         programmer.  You're the wrong kind of person for this
>         job."  His 
>         decision that I wouldn't fit was totally illogical and in
>         defiance of

-- 



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From ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:01:00 2006
From: ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ralph Ellis)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:01:00 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <200606211201.00613.ralphellis1@netscape.ca>

Suse 10.1 has a lot of laptop friendly features and soon will have more as the 
new kernel update is available. You can even get the kernel update now as it 
is available for download on the opensuse.org site as well. The only thing 
that you should note is that there is a fix to the automatic update function 
in the 10.1 distribution so you should run the YAST Online Update function on 
your first or second boot. The new kernel supports more of the wireless cards 
that are available on the market. Suse 10.1 also has more power conservation 
features available than earlier versions. Check out:

http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/
http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/mobility.html

but you can get all you need in a free download from:

http://en.opensuse.org/Download

I have been very pleased with Suse since version 10. 

The new version of Fedora Core is also out but I have not checked into the 
laptop support for version 5 yet. I find that Fedora supports slightly less 
hardware than Suse.
Ralph Ellis


On Wednesday 21 June 2006 10:47, teddy mills wrote:
> I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
> thermal issues.
> I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know
> what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
>
> Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan
> at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you
> in advance!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:12:44 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:12:44 -0400
Subject: Webcam recommendations
In-Reply-To: <pdhe.p-+YX2R2rzhYdvdVWLaNYn+WWHXxJMuy6s@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060621130904.GC9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <pdhe.p@xtgqj.vfrdv.iiupi.up>
Message-ID: <20060621161244.GD9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 04:30:04PM +0300, Peter wrote:
> Not true, but this is the simple answer. Gear such as Neil needs exists, 
> and some USB cameras can be programmed to work as he needs them to.

Well that would probably have a price tag to match, probably many times
higher than the cost of just a camera.

Len Sorensen
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From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:19:11 2006
From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:19:11 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Webcam recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20060621161244.GD9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
 <20060621130904.GC9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <pdhe.p@xtgqj.vfrdv.iiupi.up>
 <20060621161244.GD9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <qapuuk.xtv@px.vpkvp.iu.iiupi>



On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 04:30:04PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>> Not true, but this is the simple answer. Gear such as Neil needs exists,
>> and some USB cameras can be programmed to work as he needs them to.
>
> Well that would probably have a price tag to match, probably many times
> higher than the cost of just a camera.

No, but they are not called 'webcams' and they are not normally sold 
over the counter although some commercial webcams have such features. 
Kodak comes to mind here. Usually one uses an external trigger gizmo, 
but more recently it has become possible to detect motion in the picture 
on the camera.

Peter
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:26:37 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:26:37 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <44995244.7030806-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44993C00.70207@rogers.com> <44995244.7030806@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060621162637.GE9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 10:05:56AM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Yeah, I saw that. I was more intetested in the ext3 performance increase 
> than working wireless since mine has been fully supported for ages. 
> You've spurred me on, I'm tweaking my 2.6.16 .config for 2.6.17 as I 
> send this.

Just hope the tcp window scaling changes in 2.6.17 don't bite you for
any of the sites you connect to. :)  The throughput on fast links is
apparently wastly improved, while it causes serious retransmit and
trhoughput loss when going through broken routers that don't follow the
tcp specification correctly.  There are a few of those around
apparently.

Len Sorensen
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:38:58 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:38:58 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <20060621150337.GA10659-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>
	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>

> These days there are a large number of distros that come with live CD
> counterparts - run them as a live CD and test.

Except for Debian. I wonder what happened with the Debian Live project...

It is frustrating in general that Debian does not focus as much as
Ubuntu on user friendliness. Although they are improving, e.g. with
the new graphical installer in Etch, they are often a step behind:
e.g. Ubuntu's gnome-app-install does not work on Debian, e-mail me
off-list for details why.

Am I supposed to move to Ubuntu? I love Debian though, it Just Works.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
Specializing in Linux: Red Hat AS / ES, Debian, and others. We do Windows too.
Serving homes and companies globally via remote access tools. Fair flat rates.
Just send a note, phone 416-781-5938, or call Skype ID jasonspiro.
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:41:13 2006
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:41:13 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <44995B87.8030303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44995B87.8030303@telly.org>
Message-ID: <f9870c010606210941y4d7bf03an4f018e9a529737b6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Alex Beamish wrote:
>
> > After over twenty years of working on the software industry, I'm still
> > not sure what the right answers are to some of those HR stumpers:
> >
> > [] Where do you want to be in five years? (I don't know .. In Madrid?
> > Driving a truck? Five years older?)
>
> They're trying to see if you have any vision for yourself deeper than
> next week. It's also a deliberately obscure question designed to get at
> more of you as an individual. There are lots of programmers out there
> who have good code samples and they may be looking to separate the
> candidates based on non-technical qualities. In some companies an
> ability to work to deadline, for example, is more important than the
> sheer brilliance of your code. And you know that they're trying to avoid
> anti-social BOFH types.


OK -- maybe it's just me, but when I talk about expanding my knowledge base,
writing some cool software and maintaining a good base of software, rather
than talking about leading projects, becoming a VP and conquering the world,
I get the feeling the HR types are mentally stamping 'LOSER' on my ample
forehead. I just love doing the technical stuff -- if that's a weakness, so
be it.

> [] What's the accomplishment you're most proud of? (A dual mode
> > communications module implemented using a state machine with function
> > pointers, written using Object Oriented C .. are you OK? Do you need a
> > glass of water?)
>
> They're literally giving you an opportunity to sell yourself. It's also
> another character test, in that such a description may force you to
> describe a technical task in non-technical terms -- are you up to it?


I'm up for it -- I just have to remember that when I start talking about a
favourite project, I have to tailor the response to the audience, discussing
the technical aspects with the technical people, and the management aspects
with the management people. it's very important to know your audience -- I
was facetiously describing a technical achievement to an HR person, which is
something I wouldn't do in a real-life situation.

> I'm left-brained -- that means that when someone asks me an HR-type
> > question, I usually have to stop and think about an answer. One way to
> > prepare for that is to have someone bombard you with HR type questions
> > -- you have to be ready to tell a story in 30 seconds that answers
> > that question. A yes or a no won't do it -- and a five minute
> > discourse on Captain Kirk vs. Captian Picard won't do it either.
>
> I agree, to an extent. Attitude counts for a lot, especially for those
> interviews in which they're counting for you to be caught off-guard and
> being able to react quickly to the unexpected. Answering everything with
> a too-rehearsed canned answer is only marginally better than being
> totally dumbstruck.


Of course -- if the candidate is reading from index cards, or worse,
reciting something that's obviously been memorized, that's a big mistake --
but a rehearsed topic with a couple of rehearsed bullet points is good for a
90 second response outline. My weakness is trying to cram a five minute
answer into 90 seconds -- the solution is, of course, to provide at most a
90 second answer.

> Anyway, I'm just hoping my next employer is small enough that they
> > don't have an HR department, so I can skip that part of the hiring
> > process altogether.
>
> That works, but it also means that your avenues of movement within the
> company will be limited.


That doesn't bother me so much, if I'm getting well paid to do an
interesting job in a fun environment.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 16:55:25 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:55:25 -0400
Subject: Lone Coder Blog - A Lone Coder in a Big Pond
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010606210941y4d7bf03an4f018e9a529737b6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1150569986.9511.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>	 <f9870c010606182044m4597a83bo75c398c316b5944e@mail.gmail.com>	 <44995B87.8030303@telly.org> <f9870c010606210941y4d7bf03an4f018e9a529737b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <449979FD.1080403@telly.org>

Alex Beamish wrote:
> OK -- maybe it's just me, but when I talk about expanding my knowledge
> base, writing some cool software and maintaining a good base of
> software, rather than talking about leading projects, becoming a VP
> and conquering the world, I get the feeling the HR types are mentally
> stamping 'LOSER' on my ample forehead. I just love doing the technical
> stuff -- if that's a weakness, so be it.
It all depends. If they're looking for someone who is "management
material", capable of evolving from team player to team leader, and you
don't want that, then it's a mutually bad fit.

I agree that the growth mentality behind the private sector makes it
difficult for HR types to understand people who aren't interested in
moving up the management food chain. They're used to seeing raw ambition
and may be unable to easily deal with people who are content to be soldiers.

> I'm up for it -- I just have to remember that when I start talking
> about a favourite project, I have to tailor the response to the
> audience, discussing the technical aspects with the technical people,
> and the management aspects with the management people.
IMO this is critical -- taking care not to speak above or below the
level of the people on the other side. Indeed, the ability to explain
complex tech in easy to understand language is what I think many
employers would consider valuable.

> That doesn't bother me so much, if I'm getting well paid to do an
> interesting job in a fun environment.
Ah, the trifecta. Job satisfaction, good pay and an encouraging employer.

- Evan

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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 17:17:39 2006
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:17:39 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca> <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 12:38:58PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
>>These days there are a large number of distros that come with live CD
>>counterparts - run them as a live CD and test.
>
>Except for Debian. I wonder what happened with the Debian Live project...

It is still happening, as far as I know - but you don't need one for
Debian, because configs from Knoppix, Morphix, Mepis, Ubuntu and others
will work on Debian.

>It is frustrating in general that Debian does not focus as much as
>Ubuntu on user friendliness. Although they are improving, e.g. with
>the new graphical installer in Etch, they are often a step behind:
>e.g. Ubuntu's gnome-app-install does not work on Debian, e-mail me
>off-list for details why.

The primary focus for Debian is creating a tightly integrated system
that is apt-tastic - i.e. all significant system customization can be
done with the package manager - on a wide range of hardware.

>Am I supposed to move to Ubuntu? I love Debian though, it Just Works.

You can use Ubuntu as an install disk for Debian - change your apt
sources.list to point at Debian repositories, run an apt-get
dist-upgrade, and then maintain it as a Debian system henceforth, with
the configurations all set up by Ubuntu people for whom out-of-the-box
perfection is their primary interest.  It's not perfect - I usually
install Debian and use live CD configs to tune it rather than the other
way around.  As always, test carefully and treat your data as the
precious thing it is.
-- 

yours,

William

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From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 17:19:19 2006
From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:19:19 -0400
Subject: Fedora fonts
In-Reply-To: <44994A78.2000604-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44994A78.2000604@uoguelph.ca>
Message-ID: <1150910359.32002.4.camel@home>

On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 09:32 -0400, Tom Watts wrote:
> I recently reinstalled Fedora Core 5 and somewhere along the 
> lines of applying updates and configuring things, the fonts 
> changed.  It's not just each application, it's globally across 
> the gnome desktop.  Checking fonts under preferences doesn't help 
> so I'm wondering if anyone can help me find the fonts I'm looking 
> for since I am clueless when it comes to fonts on Linux.  Any 
> help would be great since I've always been satisfied with the 
> default that Fedora offers and have never had to tweak this sort 
> of thing before.

The default font on Fedora is Luxi Sans, but you may also want to try
Bitstream Vera.

> Thanks,

-- 
behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
        -- Dan Bern, "New American Language"

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From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 17:24:26 2006
From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Tom Watts)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:24:26 -0400
Subject: Fedora fonts
In-Reply-To: <1150910359.32002.4.camel@home>
References: <44994A78.2000604@uoguelph.ca> <1150910359.32002.4.camel@home>
Message-ID: <449980CA.50201@uoguelph.ca>



Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> 
> The default font on Fedora is Luxi Sans, but you may also want to try
> Bitstream Vera.
> 
>> Thanks,
> 

Thanks for the reply, but I figured out my problem earlier today. 
  For anyone interested, yesterday I built Java RPMs as 
instructed on www.fedorafaq.org then installed them. 
Uninstalling the Java fonts RPM solved the problem.

Thanks again!  Oh and thanks for the Fedora DVD!

-- 
Tom Watts
wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 17:32:42 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:32:42 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <20060621171739.GA11209-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>
	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
	 <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, William O'Higgins Witteman <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The primary focus for Debian is creating a tightly integrated system
> that is apt-tastic - i.e. all significant system customization can be
> done with the package manager - on a wide range of hardware.
>
So they don't mind it if most prospective users end up using Ubuntu,
as Distrowatch seems to indicate is happening? Why have two separate
distros, Debian and Ubuntu, each somewhat different? Why is it bad if
the Linux community standardizes mostly on one distro (Debian)? Of
course, to do that, Debian would probably have to focus less on
portability to so many architectures, and more on
usability/documentation issues. The lack of portability would be a
blow to the alternatives-to-i386-amd64-or-sparc-on-the-desktop camp
but it seems that camp is fairly dead anyway. :)

> You can use Ubuntu as an install disk for Debian - change your apt
> sources.list to point at Debian repositories, run an apt-get
> dist-upgrade, and then maintain it as a Debian system henceforth, with
> the configurations all set up by Ubuntu people for whom out-of-the-box
> perfection is their primary interest.  It's not perfect - I usually
> install Debian and use live CD configs to tune it rather than the other
> way around.  As always, test carefully and treat your data as the
> precious thing it is.

Yes, and there's the uncurse shell script abrotman from IRC #debian
wrote and put up on his website:
http://www.linuks.mine.nu/ubuntu/uncurse

The shell script is supposed to transform an installed Ubuntu system
into Debian. People on IRC used to sometimes run into problems after
they tried it. I haven't been on IRC recently, so I don't know the
latest news.

But it seems to me such configurations would be unsupported, and that
it would be unfair request support on such a config without telling
people you're using it. And what percentage of people on IRC would
help out people using such a config? :)

Cheers,
Jason


> --
>
> yours,
>
> William
>
>
>
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>
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> CKrxzcLVJGPV8FKKlQAR7f4=
> =+1ec
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>


-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Debian, Ubuntu, Windows XP / Server 2003, and others.
Serving homes and companies globally via remote access tools. Fair flat rates.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 17:41:55 2006
From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:41:55 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>
	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
	 <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
	 <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17af13780606211041i4d127637i2ac8322e8ef0899f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/21/06, William O'Higgins Witteman <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > The primary focus for Debian is creating a tightly integrated system
> > that is apt-tastic - i.e. all significant system customization can be
> > done with the package manager - on a wide range of hardware.
> >
> So they don't mind it if most prospective users end up using Ubuntu,
> as Distrowatch seems to indicate is happening? Why have two separate
> distros, Debian and Ubuntu, each somewhat different? Why is it bad if
> the Linux community standardizes mostly on one distro (Debian)? Of
> course, to do that, Debian would probably have to focus less on
> portability to so many architectures, and more on
> usability/documentation issues. The lack of portability would be a
> blow to the alternatives-to-i386-amd64-or-sparc-on-the-desktop camp
> but it seems that camp is fairly dead anyway. :)
>

Debian exists as a common denominator, refusing to make most choices for
the user.  For example, with Ubuntu, AFAIK, you have to use GNOME or
(with Kubuntu) KDE.  But some people want Xfce or no bloated desktop
stuff at all (yes, we still exist).

i
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 18:18:34 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:18:34 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>	 <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>	 <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44998D7A.4090502@telly.org>

Let's not forget the recent Tux Magazine distribution comparison, which
featured two TLUGgers as writers:

http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000189
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 18:37:27 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:27 +0000
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <44998D7A.4090502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>
	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
	 <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
	 <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44998D7A.4090502@telly.org>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606211137h262c74bh1050991c44ea0cb3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Let's not forget the recent Tux Magazine distribution comparison, which
> featured two TLUGgers as writers:
>
> http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000189

Unfortunately, the comments indicate that it didn't actually
accomplish any sort of "comparison," but rather just presented a
compilation of largely independent reviews.

-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 19:24:08 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:24:08 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606211137h262c74bh1050991c44ea0cb3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca>	 <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>	 <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com>	 <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>	 <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>	 <44998D7A.4090502@telly.org> <d6d6637f0606211137h262c74bh1050991c44ea0cb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44999CD8.7000707@telly.org>

Christopher Browne wrote:
>> http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000189
>
> Unfortunately, the comments indicate that it didn't actually 
> accomplish any sort of "comparison," but rather just presented a
> compilation of largely independent reviews.

A lot of comments also did the usual "well it didn't like _my_ favourite
best so it sucked" complaint.

Indeed, the approach was a little different from the usual "let's make a
big feature table" character of conventional comparisons that blandly
dominate the media landscape. However, the articles *did* have common
criteria to work with, and I invite anyone to read the piece and make
their own judgements on its utility, as well as the legitimacy of the
complaints.

- Evan

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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 19:40:51 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:40:51 +0100
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151448030.31593-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151448030.31593@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4499A0C3.9080608@quadratic.net>

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:
>
>> Since Ken missed out on the last one here's another.  I have script that
>> annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
>> not mine and may change in the future.  How can I automate the 'y'
>> answer?
>
> echo y | /path/to/script
>
> yes | /path/to/script
>
>

"expect" might do the job.

It's a "scripting" language designed to run against interactive sessions.

David
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 19:50:47 2006
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <4499A0C3.9080608-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606151448030.31593@localhost.localdomain> <4499A0C3.9080608@quadratic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606211547521.31593@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, David Thornton wrote:

> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>  On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Neil Watson wrote:
>> 
>> >  Since Ken missed out on the last one here's another.  I have script that
>> >  annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
>> >  not mine and may change in the future.  How can I automate the 'y'
>> >  answer?
>>
>>  echo y | /path/to/script
>>
>>  yes | /path/to/script
>
> "expect" might do the job.
>
> It's a "scripting" language designed to run against interactive sessions.

     If the script reads from stdin, expect is overkill, and the pipe
     will do the job. Expect's main use is for commands that read
     directly from the terminal (/dev/tty).

     Besides, if it's a scipt, it presumably can be changed, either so
     that it does read from stdin, or else doesn't ask at all.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 20:00:22 2006
From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:00:22 -0400
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <20060615183556.GD4111-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606211300w696c0667m9259b111273bda7c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/15/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I have script that
> annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
> not mine and may change in the future.

I am curious, what is the script?

--Jason, recalling the long process of learning to deal with the
vmware-install.pl script
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From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 20:02:18 2006
From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:02:18 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <200606211058.18054.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606211058.18054.jason@detachednetworks.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY111-F19C6AE695C6196291986D5B5840@phx.gbl>

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 10:47, teddy mills wrote:
 > I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
 > thermal issues.
 > I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know
 > what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
 > I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
 >
 > Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan
 > at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
 > Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you
 > in advance!

Ubuntu Dapper - 6.06 works flawlessly on my laptop. Power management,
performance profiles, hibernate, suspend to ram all work fine.

Acer TravelMate 4400
AMD Turion ML30 64bit

I have also installed it on many other laptops with the same results.


I run FC5 on my laptop and it power management works fine for the most part. 
However, there seems to be a problem with CPU frequency. It's always at half 
the speen the CPU should run at even when the laptop is plugged in. Anyone 
has experience with that particular problem?
Martin


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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 20:07:27 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:07:27 -0400
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606211300w696c0667m9259b111273bda7c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <c241693f0606211300w696c0667m9259b111273bda7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060621200727.GF25761@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 04:00:22PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
>On 6/15/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>I have script that
>>annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
>>not mine and may change in the future.
>
>I am curious, what is the script?

It's a script that comes with OpenView.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 19 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 20:19:26 2006
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 21 Jun 2006 16:19:26 -0400
Subject: automatically acknowledge commands
In-Reply-To: <20060621200727.GF25761-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060615183556.GD4111@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
	<c241693f0606211300w696c0667m9259b111273bda7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060621200727.GF25761@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <lvbqsmz2gh.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> writes:
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 04:00:22PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
> >On 6/15/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >>I have script that
> >>annoyingly requires a 'y' prompt part way through.  Alas, the script is
> >>not mine and may change in the future.
> >
> >I am curious, what is the script?
> 
> It's a script that comes with OpenView.

I wasn't watching this thread so I'm not certain if you got your answer.

If there's no other input to the script you could use the yes(1) command.

        yes | myscript

Or if it is always just one 'y', you could do:

        echo y | myscript


Hmm, starting to remind me of that Simpsons episode where Homer had to keep
typing 'yes' on his computer.  He found out that 'y' worked and claimed that
he tripled his productivity :)

HTH,
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>           starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 21:18:41 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org ('William Park')
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:18:41 -0400
Subject: [vsharma-nMRBk51z6VpWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org: RE: UNIX Administrator Job Opportunity l / Job 1710]
Message-ID: <20060621211841.GA641@wp.magstar.net>

----- Forwarded message from Varnika Sharma <vsharma-nMRBk51z6VpWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> -----

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:25:19 -0400
From: "Varnika Sharma" <vsharma-nMRBk51z6VpWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>
Subject: RE: UNIX Administrator Job Opportunity l / Job 1710
To: "'William Park'" <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01C69514.9D50CA80"

Good morning Mr. Park,

Thanks for your quick response and help. I am attaching the job description
which you can forward to the LUG's along with my contact details.

In case they need any other clarification/ information do let me know.


JOB TITLE: Unix System Administrator (Linux/Solaris)
JOB TYPE : Full Time /Permanent
LOCATION : Toronto

Requirements:

Strong Unix - Linux and Solaris System administration experience. Strong
experience working with the Unix boxes.

Linux is the key as they are working with this.

They have 100 Linux boxes, 8 Solaris boxes

ON call person who can carry pager

This is on the operations side.

Required to carry a pager 1 week per month on

Overtime

Good communication skills are needed.




 

Thanks again and you have a great day!



kind regards,

Varnika Sharma
IT Resource Consultant
Bevertec Cst Inc.
5935 Airport Rd, Suite 400
Mississauga, Ontario L4V 1W5
Tel: 416-695-7525 ext: 270
Fax 416-695-7526
Email: vsharma-nMRBk51z6VpWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org

Please feel free to visit our website www.bevertec.com
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From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 21:32:03 2006
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:32:03 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F19C6AE695C6196291986D5B5840-MsuGFMq8XAE@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606211058.18054.jason@detachednetworks.ca>
	 <BAY111-F19C6AE695C6196291986D5B5840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880606211432v19e27179nfbb790ab933d0d2d@mail.gmail.com>

I have a laptop and i remeber there's a kernel option to keep it from
running FULL Power so your chip won't overheat ...

i think anyway i can't recall

On 6/21/06, Martin Duclos <tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 21 June 2006 10:47, teddy mills wrote:
> > I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
> > thermal issues.
> > I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know
> > what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> > I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
> >
> > Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan
> > at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> > Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you
> > in advance!
>
> Ubuntu Dapper - 6.06 works flawlessly on my laptop. Power management,
> performance profiles, hibernate, suspend to ram all work fine.
>
> Acer TravelMate 4400
> AMD Turion ML30 64bit
>
> I have also installed it on many other laptops with the same results.
>
>
> I run FC5 on my laptop and it power management works fine for the most
> part.
> However, there seems to be a problem with CPU frequency. It's always at
> half
> the speen the CPU should run at even when the laptop is plugged in. Anyone
> has experience with that particular problem?
> Martin
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 21:32:46 2006
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:32:46 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880606211432v19e27179nfbb790ab933d0d2d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606211058.18054.jason@detachednetworks.ca>
	 <BAY111-F19C6AE695C6196291986D5B5840@phx.gbl>
	 <32f6a8880606211432v19e27179nfbb790ab933d0d2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880606211432r36e25b12ue85a62897ea68e90@mail.gmail.com>

oh to add on that.. AMD processors sometimes report less speed when its
running depending on the load it automatically adjusts on some of my
computers.

On 6/21/06, Dave Germiquet <davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> I have a laptop and i remeber there's a kernel option to keep it from
> running FULL Power so your chip won't overheat ...
>
> i think anyway i can't recall
>
>
> On 6/21/06, Martin Duclos <tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Wednesday 21 June 2006 10:47, teddy mills wrote:
> > > I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
> > > thermal issues.
> > > I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not
> > know
> > > what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> > > I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
> > >
> > > Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu
> > fan
> > > at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> > > Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank
> > you
> > > in advance!
> >
> > Ubuntu Dapper - 6.06 works flawlessly on my laptop. Power management,
> > performance profiles, hibernate, suspend to ram all work fine.
> >
> > Acer TravelMate 4400
> > AMD Turion ML30 64bit
> >
> > I have also installed it on many other laptops with the same results.
> >
> >
> > I run FC5 on my laptop and it power management works fine for the most
> > part.
> > However, there seems to be a problem with CPU frequency. It's always at
> > half
> > the speen the CPU should run at even when the laptop is plugged in.
> > Anyone
> > has experience with that particular problem?
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
> >
>
>
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 22:30:14 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 23:30:14 +0100
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com> <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain> <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <4499C876.3040904@quadratic.net>

what about a ntp server connected to a gps unit?

Would that do the job?

David

Dave Cramer wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Thanks, actually I"m looking for something a little more integrated. 
> I've seen the Dallas stuff.
>
> What I"m looking for is referred to as a host security module.
>
> The end result is I want to create a Timestamp Authority. I've tried 
> mod_tsa, but I get errors using the module.
>
> Dave
> On 21-Jun-06, at 9:43 AM, Interlug wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
>>>
>>> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I
>>> can't remember the name ?
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but I've
>> always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.
>>
>> Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.
>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>>
>
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 18:35:57 2006
From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:35:57
Subject: Free computer: Message 3: recommitted to lady
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060621183557.2967be46@mail.look.ca>

I cannot take time to answer all the people who sent me e-mails, so here is
a detailed general answer.

The couple working in my apartment building as assistant superintendents
(Mr. Aaron and Mrs. Vanessa M.) have an old PC case and contents.

It belongs to the wife, Mrs. Vanessa M., who used to work for Microsoft
Canada in the Atlantic provinces.

She tried to sell the old PC by a flyer on the laundry room's bulletin board.

She failed. I forget the price she asked.

She took down the flyer, and said that they would just toss it into the
garbage bin behind the building.

I said that it was a shame, and that I would mention it on a couple of
e-mail groups.

I chose to announce it in the monthly meeting of:
   - TLUG: Toronto Linux User Group
     meeting at University of Toronto,
     Tuesday night (June 13th) at 7 pm.

No one was interested, but they suggested posting to their entire e-mail
group.

The husband was not at all impatient.

I interpreted the wife (Vanessa ?) as becoming impatient. I probably was
wrong. I am weak at interpreting emotions.

I decided to post it on two e-mail groups:
   - PCCT: Personal Computer Club of Toronto
   - TLUG: Toronto Linux User Group
and, as an afterthought, on:
   - HAPPEN: Halton and Peel Professionals and Executives Network.

I handled _-=ALL=-_ outstanding telephone calls (detected by Caller ID)
before receiving e-mail.

I got a lot of telephone calls, which I listed most of in my previous
messages.
   - 12:18 12:18 pm Mr. C. M-S
                    As I was looking at the long list of callers
                    to plan the order to contact them,
                    this gentleman called, and I committed it to him.
------------------------------------------------------------------
After I handled all the telephone calls detected by Bell Canada
Caller ID, I received my e-mail and found even more responses.

In total, possibly nearly two dozen people responded.

I did not have time to give individual e-mail answers to everyone, but I
think that I did anyway.

I have already spent hours giving individual answers to everyone
who telephoned.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I originally stated: "Pick up as soon as possible:".

Case and contents:
   - Intel Pentium II, 350 MHz

   - 128 MB RAM

   - 6 GB hard drive

   - CD burner

   - NIC (network interface card)

Note:
   - This is the CASE and CONTENTS ONLY.
   - This DEFINITELY DOES NOT INCLUDE MONITOR,
     and almost certainly DOES NOT INCLUDE KEYBOARD or MOUSE.
   - I think that she will keep the MONITOR, KEYBOARD and MOUSE.

Note: I originally stated:
   - "Pick up from the area near 401 and Kennedy Road, Scarborough.
     Contact me for exact address. Give me your name and telephone number.".

Note:
   - At 5 pm, I gave to Vanessa the name and telephone numbers
     of Mr. C. M-S., who called at 12:18 pm.
   - At 8 pm, Vanessa still had not called him, so he called me.
     I was out shopping.
   - At 10 pm, I called him. He mentioned their lack of response.
   - At 10 pm, Vanessa and her husband did not answer my knocking on their
door.
   - I decided to try tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday's events:

incoming calls, detected by Caller ID:
   - 10:30 10:30 am V T
   - 11:19 11:19 am V T
   - 11:38 11:38 am fraudulent telephone number, using *Call Privacy
telephoned (--   )    -    : V T
   - 12:03:03 to 12:05:19: 2 minutes, 16 seconds
   - (He had not read my e-mail mentioning
      that I had already committed the computer to someone else.)
   - He said that he already had two computers,
     but a third could be useful for testing things.
   - I told him that I had already committed the computer
     to someone else.
telephoned (--   )    -    : Mr. C. M-S
   - 15:00:18 to 15:01:55: 1 minute, 37 seconds
   - Mr. C. M-S had called me the previous night at 8
     to ask why she had not contacted him.
   - I had knocked on their door after 10 pm to ask when they would call
Mr. C. M-S.
   - I had intended to go down to talk to Mrs. Vanessa
     to ask whether she had contacted him yet.
   - I had been received telephone calls
     and receiving and reading e-mails all day.
   - I had not had time to dress yet.
   - I decided to discover the status by asking Mr. C. M-S,
     to save the time to dress and find her.
   - I asked him whether she had contacted him yet.
   - He said that she had not.
   - This was more than 22 hours since I handed her
     his full name and telephone numbers.
   - He is not at all sure that he is interested in picking up a PC
     from a person who is intolerably rude.
note:
   - 00:10 12:10 am Ms. C C.
                    Status #1:
                         She was not home when I tried to call.
                         I did not leave a message.
                    Status #2:
                         She was not home when I tried to call.
                         I left a message.
                    Status #3:
                         She was at home when I called a third time.
                         She denied making any such call,
                         emphasized that she would NEVER call anyone
                         at ten minutes after midnight,
                         and stated that Bell Canada's Caller ID
                         must have malfunctioned.
incoming calls, detected by Caller ID:
   - 15:14 to 15:47 (3:14 pm) C. C.
   - Ms. A. P. of HAPPEN telephoned:
   - She introduced herself as my "crazy friend".
   - I did not recognize her voice.
   - Sunday night about 11:30 pm,
     I sent out the e-mail message about a free PC.
   - Ms. A. P. thought that she had found another night-owl,
     so she called me at ten minutes after midnight, Sunday night.
   - She has a roommate, Ms. C. C.
   - Ms. A. P. forgot to tell Ms. C. C. about the call.
   - I assumed that someone who would call at 10 after midnight
     would be awake at 20 after ten,
     so I called her, but woke up Ms. C. C., not Ms. A. P.,
     who had no idea that Ms. A. P. had called me.
   - Ms. A. P. wants it for her niece's 16th birthday party.
note:
   - 15:48: I took out garbage: rotting from kitchen.
            This was the rotting bean sprouts left over from my meal
            at the Vietnamese restaurant on Spadina
            the night of the Toronto Linux User Group.

            I talked to Mrs. Vanessa, the assistant superintendent.
            She is young, friendly, a whirlwind of energy,
            athletic, and might make a good Girl Guides leader.
            I mentioned that the gentleman had asked about the PC,
            and was surprised that after 22 hours she had not called.
            She mentioned that she is very busy:
               - She had just finished interviewing prospective tenants,
                 and telling them the procedures for becoming a tenant,
                 and what the rules were to avoid eviction.
               - I know that the corporation's headquarters
                 have issued a bulletin to them, threatening firing,
                 because they accept too many tenants
                 who stay only one year, so that the corporation
                 has to do cleaning and redecoration annually,
                 rather than pro-rate it over ten years,
                 so the superintendents have to carefully ask
                 without actually coming out and asking:
                 "So, how many years will you be living here ?"
               - Floorboard tiles in the laundry room have been detached
                 and stolen.
               - She had to go through a stinking collection of bags
                 and piles of garbage in a garbage-disposal room,
                 to identify who had left it all there,
                 in violation of Toronto municipal by-laws,
                 to ask the woman not to do it again,
                 so that no one would report the corporation
                 to the City of Toronto for violation of by-laws,
                 concerning insect infestation and fire hazards,
                 causing big league fines.
               - I know that someone had blocked the laundry room's
                 toilet with feces and huge amounts of toilet paper,
                 and she or her husband had to unclog it.
               - She has a doctor's appointment.
               - She has a dentist's appointment.
               - She said that yesterday she was so busy, non-stop,
                 that she had not had even one minute
                 to eat anything or drink anything,
                 and that most people don't know what it is like
                 to work non-stop with absolutely no food or drink
                 for over 32 hours.
               - She said that she works all day,
                 then has tenants knocking on her door
                 complaining of all sorts of things.
            She mentioned that she is not interested in giving her PC
            to a person who is impatient.
            I mentioned that, actually, a couple dozen people
            were also interested in the PC.
            I mentioned that a woman had called a few minutes ago,
            expressing interest in the PC.
            Mrs. Vanessa gave me her telephone number (and name)
            to pass on to the woman,
            so that the woman could leave a voicemail message.
telephoned (--   )    -    : Mr. C. M-S
   - 16:51:03 to 16:52:42: 1 minute, 39 seconds
   - He confirmed that he is not interested in picking up a PC
     from a person who is intolerably rude.
telephoned (--   )    -    : Miss A. P. of HAPPEN,
                             at the telephone number of:
                             Miss C. C.
   - 16:53:02 to 17:01:52: 8 minutes, 50 seconds
   - I gave her the telephone number for Mrs. Vanessa M.
   - She will call Mrs. Vanessa M.,
     emphasizing that she knows that Vanessa is a busy person,
     and that the pickup date and time will be at Vanessa's convenience.
----------------------------------------------
Wednesday
I am still getting e-mails asking for the PC:

>>  If nobody else wants that old Pentium II as a working machine, I would  
take it for usable parts like RAM, hard drive, NIC and CD burner.   
Main board might also be usable if it will support a faster CPU.

>> But please give priority to anyone else who asks for it as a running
computer.

>>  phone --- --- ----      email     x at x.com

>>  please acknowledge email
>>  thanks,
---------------------------------------------------
>>  Did somebody eventually pick up that old computer?
>>  If not, I am still interested  in it for parts and would go for it Wed
or Thur afternoon or evening, June 21 or 22, whichever is convenient
for them or you.
>>  Please email reply or leave phone message at --- --- ----.

>>  thanks
---------------------------------------------------
>>  I recall you wanted the Pentium II to be picked up quickly but  
interested parties seem to be procrastinating.
>>  Of course, I would not be upset if I dont get it.
>>  Please keep me in mind if the others dont follow through.
>>  I could pick it up daytime or evening, at your convenience.

>>  regards,
---------------------------------------------------
I need income urgently, and this was a bad time to use up 4 days of my time.

My eviction starts in a week.


James E. McIntosh   416-292-8126   <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org>


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 22:39:33 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:39:33 -0400
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <4499C876.3040904-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com> <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain> <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10@visibleassets.com> <4499C876.3040904@quadratic.net>
Message-ID: <E32DCA9D-C67E-4277-8891-059B8991C456@visibleassets.com>

That's pieces of it, yes. I've been trying to build mod_tsa with  
little luck

with a gps receiver and mod_tsa and a real cert that's all that is  
required.

At this point the hardware may be cheaper than my time. There's also  
a requirement for storing keys on a secure physical medium.

Dave
On 21-Jun-06, at 6:30 PM, David Thornton wrote:

> what about a ntp server connected to a gps unit?
>
> Would that do the job?
>
> David
>
> Dave Cramer wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>> Thanks, actually I"m looking for something a little more  
>> integrated. I've seen the Dallas stuff.
>>
>> What I"m looking for is referred to as a host security module.
>>
>> The end result is I want to create a Timestamp Authority. I've  
>> tried mod_tsa, but I get errors using the module.
>>
>> Dave
>> On 21-Jun-06, at 9:43 AM, Interlug wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
>>>>
>>>> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I
>>>> can't remember the name ?
>>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but I've
>>> always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.
>>>
>>> Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.
>>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 22:39:46 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100
Subject: hardware inventory
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606130850u6d7ebfa2v12b4d5b9f9f9dba7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060612200008.GC14535@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <1e55af990606130850u6d7ebfa2v12b4d5b9f9f9dba7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4499CAB2.808@quadratic.net>

I've used lshw and snmpwalk to get a feel for what I have out there.

Cheap, light-weight, far from perfect.

David

Sy Ali wrote:
> On 6/12/06, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> What does everyone use to keep hardware inventory?
>>
>> Any comments or other recommendations?
>
> Although I never used the feature, I saw it in remote anything [1].
>
> I rather like this application, although they _still_ don't have a
> Linux version (which was supposed to be out in 2001 when I last
> chatted with them.. heh).
>
>
> [1] http://remote-anything.com/
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 23:41:27 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:41:27 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP0388D006A71E577C801582AD840@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <4499D927.80901@rogers.com>

teddy mills wrote:
> 
> I have no problem with running Linux on desktops because there are few
> thermal issues.
> I do have a problem with running Linux on laptops, because I do not know
> what to look for to get the proper thermal support.
> I mean it has to be more than APIC thermal/fan level control?
> 
> Most Linux distros I have seen,  almost never turns on a laptop cpu fan
> at random times, no matter how hot the laptop is getting
> Can you recommend a distro that I can safely run on a laptop? Thank you
> in advance!

I've been running SUSE on my ThinkPad for about 3 years.  Works well and
even has specific ThinkPad support.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 21 23:33:04 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:33:04 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <4499D730.2040907@rogers.com>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:

> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
> in Linux?

A few months ago, I picked up a 2 port Adaptec PCMCIA card for $10, from
Factory Direct.  It works well, with no configuration needed.
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 02:59:21 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:59:21 -0700
Subject: Free computer: Message 3: recommitted to lady
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060621183557.2967be46-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <3.0.6.16.20060621183557.2967be46@mail.look.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606211959o193fbed8g109dab7f77352636@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:35:57, James McIntosh <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I need income urgently, and this was a bad time to use up 4 days of my time.

Very unfortunate, but it should really not be terribly surprising.

A PC like that is *not* worth very much, and, more particularly, it is
not worth going through any kind of grief to enact an exchange.  And
it sounds to me like the personalities involved are too brittle for
that to work out well.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's really not worth it to try to preserve
elderly computers unless they have some sort of meaningful historical
value, and that's certainly not the case for a commodity PC.

And alas, that was definitely a distraction from economic priorities...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 05:26:02 2006
From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 01:26:02 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
Message-ID: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net>

Hi

back in December we had an interesting thread about Linux and more generally 
FOSS in high school. It happens that I have an opportunity to discuss these 
topics at the Ministry of Education within a couple of days. I would 
appreciate if you had some links you would like to share. 

Regards,

Marc Lijour
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 13:31:08 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:31:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Becoming a sysadmin (was: LPIC exam)
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606201413s314515dfld9131d3758536dcd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606201413s314515dfld9131d3758536dcd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606220921290.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jason Spiro wrote:

[Discussion on how to become a sysadmin]

IMHO the best way to learn an OS is to use it and to solve problems. 
Anyone who loves solving problems will naturally do this and will

A good sysadmin should have a good working knowledge of:

- security
- system privileges (and how to use them)
- backups/restores

Don't just follow best practice, figure out why things are done in a 
certain way and consider alternatives.

Just a few hints, there is quite a lot to being a sysadmin.

> Also, list: Are commercial postings frowned upon on this list? I do
> in-home / in-office Linux training throughout the GTA for a reasonable
> fee.

Non-authoritative answer but I would say definitely no.  A lot of people 
here are involved in commercial Linux support and if such posts were 
permissible we'd end up with far too many.  Posts on Linux/Unix jobs 
available and posts on personal sales of equipment are generally ok on LUG 
lists.

One option is to put a short advertisement in your .sig (ie, a couple of 
lines).  This is acceptable all over the 'net.   See below for an example.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
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We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.
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From smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 14:01:32 2006
From: smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sheldon Mustard)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:01:32 -0400
Subject: sys admin 3 month contract
Message-ID: <22e435080606220701q6a888414wfcce7c760f8e1789@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

My employer is looking for someone to do a 3 month contract.  It is
based in Newmarket, ON and is with a Tier One Automotive supplier.
Email me your CV offlist if interested.

Skills desired, in order of importance:

unix (Sun, HP, IBM)
linux (Red Hat)
netapp
EMC Networker
Oracle / dba experience
hardware (servers and workstations)
CAD / PLM software experience

SJM

-- 
Sheldon Mustard
smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
"There will be no order, only chaos." - Pi (1998)
--
--
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From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 14:03:51 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:03:51 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project has added new reusable and extendable components
Message-ID: <200606221003.52835.ican@netrover.com>

The SIMPL open source project aims to bring Send/Receive/Reply (QNX style) 
message passing to Linux.

	https://sourceforge.net/projects/simpl
	http://users.netrover.com/~ican/simpl

The project has now been in existence for 7 years and the central LGPL'd 
toolkit is now quite stable and mature at v3.0.3.    It features several 
utilities in addition to the library including a full featured set of TCP/IP 
based surrogates which allow complete network transparency to the messaging.

The SIMPL project has a collection of reusable and extendable components 
called softwareICs:

	http://users.netrover.com/~ican/simpl/simpl_softwareICs.html

Three new ones have recently been added to the collection:

	- polling emitter
	- scheduler
	- proxy

The SIMPL project could always use developer help in expanding its reach 
particularly into the Python area.

If you think SIMPL might be useful for a project you are thinking about,  
don't hesitate to contact us on the SIMPL project mailing list.   We are more 
than willing to help you get up to speed with the toolkit.    If your 
application is itself open source we'd be more than happy to help with free 
coaching with your design.

In fact we recently helped a group in Brazil setup a SIMPL based data 
acquisition system for a physics teaching laboratory (straight public domain 
licence):

	https://sourceforge.net/projects/drdaq

We also helped the IO Anywhere network appliance company port their SIMPL 
based API into an open source LGPL'd library:

	https://sourceforge.net/projects/ioanywhere

bob
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 15:59:09 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:59:09 -0400
Subject: Question about Debian Unstable & Stable
In-Reply-To: <20060530144614.GA22088-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
References: <adbefcbf0605271000s56c5856bxe4aeeaae46adde3f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060529134619.GE18891@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <c241693f0605291655r553485e9q71f91b989d8551f6@mail.gmail.com>
	 <adbefcbf0605300626m19933a5ds4b844586251265b6@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060530144614.GA22088@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606220859s2e7db10er80d4b915dff4f7e@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/30/06, William O'Higgins Witteman <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I use testing on a couple of my machines, and I find it a nice balance
> between "everything-changing-all-the-time-latest-and-greatest-craziness"
> of unstable and the "everything-works-I'm-stuck-with-two-year-old-
> features" of stable.  Testing has security updates, so you are generally
> losing nothing.
>
> When I want something new and exciting what I'll do is change my
> /etc/apt/sources.list to draw from unstable, then do an "apt-get update"
> and then an "apt-get install $SHINY_NEW_THING" and then change my
> sources.list back to testing.  The shiny new thing (most recently Vim
> 7.0, very spiffy) is essentially pinned until testing catches up to that
> version, and then everything moves forward together.  Generally though,
> testing has everything I want in it.

Reviving an old thread I found via Gmail's excellent search functionality...

Would this work? I have never tried it.

1. Put testing first in your sources.list, then stable, then unstable

2. Set up /etc/apt/preferences so that the priorities are testing,
then stable, then unstable (see man apt_preferences for details)

3. When you install an app, it would come from testing when possible,
otherwise stable, unless you did a command like apt-get -t unstable
install vim

4. ...

5. Profit!

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Jason
Please CC me on replies.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 16:02:36 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:02:36 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
In-Reply-To: <200606220126.02268.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606220902s1d0ee4ap3ba0f40501f3220c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/06, Marc Lijour <marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> back in December we had an interesting thread about Linux and more generally
> FOSS in high school. It happens that I have an opportunity to discuss these
> topics at the Ministry of Education within a couple of days. I would
> appreciate if you had some links you would like to share.

Linux Weekly News (www.lwn.net) is a superb site with well-researched
articles. It has articles on Linux adoption in various countries every
so often. If you google for things like:

skolelinux OR schools site:lwn.net

you may find some, or else email the proprietor, a kind fellow, at
corbet at lwn.net.

At your presentation, consider bringing a laptop with Ubuntu,
OpenOffice, and Xgl installed. Especially Xgl. Everyone loves eye
candy. :-) I am recommending preinstalled instead of using the liveCD
because, of course, liveCDs are so slow. Though the new Ubuntu 6.06 CD
is a massive improvement over 5.10: one CD for both live and install,
and in live mode it boots up faster than before and without asking you
questions about keyboard layout etc.

(My brother installed Xgl recently. Boy is it impressive. Especially
the 3-D animated virtual desktop-switching feature is nice: just move
the mouse to the right edge of the screen and turn the scroll wheel.)

We'd be curious to know how the discussion with the Ministry goes.

Regards,
Jason
Please CC me on all replies.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 16:29:19 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:29:19 -0400
Subject: Laptop friendly Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44995C1C.7020003@sympatico.ca> <20060621150337.GA10659@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <c241693f0606210938w13d806di14fd4a826262a609@mail.gmail.com> <20060621171739.GA11209@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <c241693f0606211032x2415a2f4y429c1a306e29e5cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060622162919.GF9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:32:42PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
> So they don't mind it if most prospective users end up using Ubuntu,
> as Distrowatch seems to indicate is happening? Why have two separate
> distros, Debian and Ubuntu, each somewhat different? Why is it bad if
> the Linux community standardizes mostly on one distro (Debian)? Of
> course, to do that, Debian would probably have to focus less on
> portability to so many architectures, and more on
> usability/documentation issues. The lack of portability would be a
> blow to the alternatives-to-i386-amd64-or-sparc-on-the-desktop camp
> but it seems that camp is fairly dead anyway. :)

Many embedded systems use arm or mips or powerpc, and many are basing
their work on debian.  The s390 seems to be a bit of a dead project,
probably caused by a lack of people with access to the required
hardware.  I like being able to run the same system and setup on all my
machines.  We do have a use for at least one distribution that cares
about portability, and well we only have one, which is debian.

> Yes, and there's the uncurse shell script abrotman from IRC #debian
> wrote and put up on his website:
> http://www.linuks.mine.nu/ubuntu/uncurse
> 
> The shell script is supposed to transform an installed Ubuntu system
> into Debian. People on IRC used to sometimes run into problems after
> they tried it. I haven't been on IRC recently, so I don't know the
> latest news.
> 
> But it seems to me such configurations would be unsupported, and that
> it would be unfair request support on such a config without telling
> people you're using it. And what percentage of people on IRC would
> help out people using such a config? :)

Many people would, if they could, but since they don't know that setup,
it may be hard to help.  Of course most questions have the same answer
for both debian and ubuntu (not so for knoppix though), so it isn't
usually a problem.

Len Sorensen
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 17:15:23 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:15:23 -0400
Subject: Is IBM ThinkPad pointing stick scrolling (blue button) possible in Linux? Or with touchpads?
Message-ID: <c241693f0606221015y353af3e7kc18d21977c6c0123@mail.gmail.com>

IBM ThinkPads have classically come with three mouse buttons.

- The two normal buttons, which are red
- The small middle button, which is blue

The blue button is generally used for pointing stick scrolling. Press
or hold the blue button and the pointing stick in the middle of the
keyboard becomes an *analog* scroll wheel.

It is a superb feature. Although it doesn't work in all apps, it lets
you smoothly scroll through documents in Word, IE, etc. with analog
control. The harder you press the stick, the faster you go.

Is there a way to get this to work on Toshiba laptops in Linux when I
press the fourth mouse button?

Also, would it be possible to get a simulation of this feature on a
Dell Inspiron 1100 with a Synaptics touch pad and the Xorg Synaptics
driver? (e.g. finger in middle of pad = no scrolling, the farther you
move it from the middle, the faster it goes)

Please CC me on all replies.
Regards,
Jason

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 17:50:48 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:50:48 -0400
Subject: Free computer: Message 3: recommitted to lady
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606211959o193fbed8g109dab7f77352636-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3.0.6.16.20060621183557.2967be46@mail.look.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606211959o193fbed8g109dab7f77352636@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606221050n65e155afn235b33fd9cfc6590@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:35:57, James McIntosh <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm sorry to say it, but it's really not worth it to try to preserve
> elderly computers unless they have some sort of meaningful historical
> value, and that's certainly not the case for a commodity PC.

In some third-world countries, obsolete computers are all they have.
So why junk 'em when you can donate 'em?

And who knows, maybe "Computers for Schools Ontario" or "Reboot" would
take 'em. Or someone on the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freecycleto/
mailing list of course. :)

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 17:57:50 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:57:50 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
Message-ID: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The SIMPL open source project aims to bring Send/Receive/Reply (QNX style)
> message passing to Linux.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is Send/Receive/Reply message passing?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 18:06:19 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:06:19 -0400
Subject: Is IBM ThinkPad pointing stick scrolling (blue button)
	possible in Linux? Or with touchpads?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606221015y353af3e7kc18d21977c6c0123-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221015y353af3e7kc18d21977c6c0123@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1150999579.22741.18.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Thu, 2006-06-22 at 13:15 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
> IBM ThinkPads have classically come with three mouse buttons.
> 
> - The two normal buttons, which are red
> - The small middle button, which is blue
> 
> The blue button is generally used for pointing stick scrolling. Press
> or hold the blue button and the pointing stick in the middle of the
> keyboard becomes an *analog* scroll wheel.
> 
> It is a superb feature. Although it doesn't work in all apps, it lets
> you smoothly scroll through documents in Word, IE, etc. with analog
> control. The harder you press the stick, the faster you go.
> 
> Is there a way to get this to work on Toshiba laptops in Linux when I
> press the fourth mouse button?
> 
> Also, would it be possible to get a simulation of this feature on a
> Dell Inspiron 1100 with a Synaptics touch pad and the Xorg Synaptics
> driver? (e.g. finger in middle of pad = no scrolling, the farther you
> move it from the middle, the faster it goes)

Edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file. Locate the Section "Device"/Identifier
"Configured Mouse" section and add these options:

        Option          "EmulateWheel"          "true"
        Option          "EmulateWheelButton"    "2"

Restart X (logout) to enable the changes.


-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 18:09:25 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:09:25 +0000
Subject: Free computer: Message 3: recommitted to lady
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606221050n65e155afn235b33fd9cfc6590-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3.0.6.16.20060621183557.2967be46@mail.look.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606211959o193fbed8g109dab7f77352636@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606221050n65e155afn235b33fd9cfc6590@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606221109x5a9540d7ld36146968e9bb4da@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/21/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:35:57, James McIntosh <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I'm sorry to say it, but it's really not worth it to try to preserve
> > elderly computers unless they have some sort of meaningful historical
> > value, and that's certainly not the case for a commodity PC.
>
> In some third-world countries, obsolete computers are all they have.
> So why junk 'em when you can donate 'em?
>
> And who knows, maybe "Computers for Schools Ontario" or "Reboot" would
> take 'em. Or someone on the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freecycleto/
> mailing list of course. :)

I'd have to call it an "open question" whether they're a good deal for
any of those scenarios.

You can buy "beige boxes" remarkably cheaply these days; when you
consider power consumption (e.g. - megawatts per MIPS), or the cost of
deploying RAM, they may *NOT* be a good deal.

In the case of the third world case, it's sure to cost a reasonable
bundle of money to get the computer shipped, and that cost doesn't
vary based on how old the technology is.

We recently had a thread where a fellow was taking some computers to
Haiti; he started off with a bunch of 486DX "cast-offs," but found
that it was more sensible to buy a bunch of low end "beige boxes."
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 18:15:09 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:15:09 -0400
Subject: Sending IBM minicomputers to Africa (was: Free computer...)
Message-ID: <c241693f0606221115m6eba6900v188be9e77026b014@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You can buy "beige boxes" remarkably cheaply these days; when you
> consider power consumption (e.g. - megawatts per MIPS), or the cost of
> deploying RAM, they may *NOT* be a good deal.

Hmm... megawatts per MIPS...

So maybe Canadians should send the third world older IBM AS/400
minicomputers with OS/400 and OfficeVision? ;-) The 3270 terminals
would be a bit heavy to ship though, it'd be more efficient just to
link the AS/400s to IBM PC XTs running 5250 emulation software. Those
big old IBM line printers would be a bit heavy to ship too. Maybe
there's a way to hook 'em up to old HP LaserJets instead.

ObLinux reference: I wonder if Debian will work on machines that old.

As you can tell, this whole message was mostly in jest.

Mostly.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 20:27:02 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com>

On Thursday 22 June 2006 01:57 pm, Jason Spiro wrote:
> On 6/22/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > The SIMPL open source project aims to bring Send/Receive/Reply (QNX
> > style) message passing to Linux.
>
> Excuse my ignorance, but what is Send/Receive/Reply message passing?

There is a brief description of S/R/R on the SIMPL project website at:

http://users.netrover.com/~ican/simpl/srr.html

and also at:

http://users.netrover.com/~ican/simpl/simpl_paradigm.html

In reality the SIMPL API is really just 5 main functions:

????????name_attach() - to register a process name
????????name_locate() - to open a communication channel to a process found by 
name
????????Send() - throw off a message and wait for a response
????????Reply() - respond to a message
????????Receive() - wait for a message to be thrown your way

In my view API's can't get any easier than that.

In reality if you've ever coded a simple function you've already used S/R/R 
albeit within the confines of a single process and using the stack as a 
message transfer medium. ? ?However, ?all the elements of an S/R/R 
transaction are present in a function call. ? The function name is the 
equivalent of the SIMPL name. ? The main code outside the function is 
equivalent to the SIMPL sender ... the act of calling the function the 
equivalent of a name_locate() and a Send() wrapped in one. ? Once the 
function is called, ?the code execution "blocks" waiting for the function to 
execute and return ... the return in the function is the equivalent of a 
Reply(). ? Upon that function return the main code (equivalent to SIMPL 
sender) unblocks and resumes execution. ? ?The function code itself is 
equivalent to the SIMPL receiver ... with the function definition line being 
the equivalent of a SIMPL Receive(). ? The function code can be thought to 
"block" waiting for some code to call it. ?

The only aspect of SIMPL which doesn't have an analog in the function call 
scenerio is the name_attach() ... although starting up the executable might 
be the equivalent of that.

If you continue with the analogy the softwareICs in SIMPL are like objects in 
an OOP program with full encapsulation and methods ... albeit without all the 
fancy inheritance capabilities.

What SIMPL does is expand this notion of blocking "function calls" to the 
sphere of interprocess communication. ? ?This allows for good encapsulation 
and deployable executable testability as well as the possibility to disperse 
those executables transparently across any networking medium unchanged. 

In addition you can write your SIMPL modules in whatever language is most 
appropriate, ?with the choice of C, ?C++, ?JAVA, ?Tcl/Tk or Python at last 
count. ? ?Furthermore a SIMPL application can easily consist of modules 
written in different languages and as long as they agree on the message 
format they can happily coexist and cooperate.

Finally, ?in the case of Tcl/Tk the SIMPL paradagm has been extended 
transparently across OSs. ? ie. Tcl/Tk SIMPL code can run and Windows and 
talk to other SIMPL code on Linux ... or in at least one instance directly 
into a deeply embedded network appliance.

QNX was the first commercial OS to embrace this S/R/R paradigm for 
encapsulating complexity of software applications. ? ?They did this way back 
in the very early days of PC's in the early 80's. ? In fact QNX predates 
Microsoft.

While SIMPL doesn't have the all the polish, raw speed and feature set of a 
QNX, ?it is certainly "good enough" for lots of sophisticated applications on 
modern processors.

bob
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 21:56:59 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (david thornton)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:56:59 +0100
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <20060609004226.GG21377-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi> <20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh> <20060609004226.GG21377@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <449B122B.9020505@quadratic.net>

Rick Delaney wrote:

>On Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at 12:47:14AM +0300, Peter wrote:
>  
>
>>On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 11:07:45PM +0300, Peter wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I did it with a hash and it is 5 times faster. Still I would like to
>>>>know what the fastest way to do $var=$var.$add; is.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Perl don't have someting icky like $var .= $more; does it?
>>>      
>>>
>>Not that I know of it.
>>    
>>
>
>It does.  If you don't like the perlmonks suggestion you might want to
>try the local Toronto Perl Mongers mailing list, tpm-BnhL/mGhxvQEbZ0PF+XxCw at public.gmane.org
>
>  
>
>>>How do you do it with a hash?
>>>      
>>>
>>%hash=();
>>$idx=0;
>>
>>cond loop {
>>  $hash{$idx++}=$line;
>>}
>>
>>$res='';
>>$i=0;
>>while($i<$idx) {
>>  $res = $res.$hash{$i++};
>>}
>>
>>this is fast, and could be faster by adding buckets. I think that Perl 
>>measures the length of the string and caches it. If the next access is 
>>'soon enough' the length must not be calculated again. The speedup 
>>factor is between 6 and 13 times (!) vs. using '.' standalone.
>>    
>>
>
>Your problem is certainly not with '.' since you are still using it.
>More likely you have nested loops or something but it is really
>difficult to tell what you're trying to do with your pseudocode.
>
>If all you want is all input in one variable then there are many ways to
>do so directly.  One would be
>
>    $var = join "", <INPUT>;
>
>Faster would be
>
>    { local $/; $var = <INPUT>; }
>
>
>  
>
I realize there's not much to it, but can you walk us through "local $/" 
? I love brief code, just it's sometimes hard to understand.

David
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From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 22:03:56 2006
From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:03:56 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606220902s1d0ee4ap3ba0f40501f3220c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net> <c241693f0606220902s1d0ee4ap3ba0f40501f3220c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606221803.56535.marc@lijour.net>

On June 22, 2006 12:02 pm, Jason Spiro wrote:
> On 6/22/06, Marc Lijour <marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > back in December we had an interesting thread about Linux and more
> > generally FOSS in high school. It happens that I have an opportunity to
> > discuss these topics at the Ministry of Education within a couple of
> > days. I would appreciate if you had some links you would like to share.
>
> Linux Weekly News (www.lwn.net) is a superb site with well-researched
> articles. It has articles on Linux adoption in various countries every
> so often. If you google for things like:
>
> skolelinux OR schools site:lwn.net
>
> you may find some, or else email the proprietor, a kind fellow, at
> corbet at lwn.net.
>
> At your presentation, consider bringing a laptop with Ubuntu,
> OpenOffice, and Xgl installed. Especially Xgl. Everyone loves eye
> candy. :-) I am recommending preinstalled instead of using the liveCD
> because, of course, liveCDs are so slow. Though the new Ubuntu 6.06 CD
> is a massive improvement over 5.10: one CD for both live and install,
> and in live mode it boots up faster than before and without asking you
> questions about keyboard layout etc.
>
> (My brother installed Xgl recently. Boy is it impressive. Especially
> the 3-D animated virtual desktop-switching feature is nice: just move
> the mouse to the right edge of the screen and turn the scroll wheel.)
>
> We'd be curious to know how the discussion with the Ministry goes.
>
> Regards,
> Jason
> Please CC me on all replies.

Already thank you for your links and support.
I will let you know.

Marc
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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 22:13:45 2006
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 22 Jun 2006 18:13:45 -0400
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <449B122B.9020505-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>
	<20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>
	<20060609004226.GG21377@localhost.localdomain>
	<449B122B.9020505@quadratic.net>
Message-ID: <lv3bdwq1nq.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

david thornton <david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org> writes:
> >Faster would be
> >
> >    { local $/; $var = <INPUT>; }
> 
> I realize there's not much to it, but can you walk us through "local $/" ? I
> love brief code, just it's sometimes hard to understand.

Well, let's break it up:

{                 # Start a new block (and new scope)
  local $/;       # Define a locally scoped variable called $/ initialized to
                  # undef.  This is the 'input record separator' which is
                  # a '\n' by default.
  $var = <INPUT>; # Since 'nothing' separates records, the first read will
                  # read in everything.
}                 # end of scope; $/ goes back to whatever it was before. 

You should do a little reading up on what 'local' means, too.  There are a
number of scopes for variables in perl; global, local, my, our. (did I miss
any?).

HTH,
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>           starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 22 22:25:49 2006
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:25:49 -0400
Subject: know zero about wifi, need to know more -
Message-ID: <20060622182549.128677ca.tleslie@tcn.net>

I am taking delivery of a nokia 9300i cell phone soon,
and I want to use it in wifi mode in the house and around Toronto if there is coverage in the
area i happen to be in.
I nave never used wifi, and have some, probably really basic questions about it.

The nokia 9300i claims to have no manual set-up of wifi mode, just automatic ...
I can kinda guess what that means, but not exactly ...
When you are in a coffee shop that has wifi ... is it protect (or lack of it) just
by the simple proximity which with one can get the connection, or is there some kind of
authentication needed, and info from the provider.
With this talk of companies blanketing toronto with wifi, as a pay service, 
what do you obtain to get on their wifi network, and will any wifi enabled device be able to connect,
again there seems to be this issue of wifi authentication that i don't know about.

Now for the use in home, i'd want to get a wifi router.
Does any wifi router, provided the protocol is matched, work, or do some have authenication issues,
(or lack of)?
Given that the typical wireless home router has plenty of juice for services above what a wifi
pda/phone would need, and given the device itself is the limiting factor on distance issues,
does it make much sence to go after a super high quality (claim to have long range) wifi wireless
router?

anyone with any story/advice regarding hook up of wifi devices phone/pda at home, 
what they used, etc, would be appreciated, and because i also have a sharp linux pda,
and may put some linux computers in the house on wireless, it would be nice to know which 
devices are maximum linux friendly. With a bit of luck too nokia will abandon the symbian OS
on the next generations of nokia 9300 type phones and put in linux.

also does anyone have any experience with a EDGE rogers data feed on their phone and 
can comment about the real effective bandwidth, i know they say 20KB/s, but i am 
reading alot about 10KB max. and then real might be somewhat less, making it rather
"old modem'ish" as apposed to the claims the cell companies make about EDGE.
However, i am primarily getting it for its ssh/vnc ability to manage the data center
at those times i am out of touch with internet, and in a pinch, even a old 33.3K dial up speed
can do what i need, but would be interesting to see if anyone is actaully getting 20KB/s that
is being claimed for EDGE, because that would rock if so! 

-tl
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 00:48:07 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (david thornton)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 01:48:07 +0100
Subject: Perl optimisation help
In-Reply-To: <lv3bdwq1nq.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <v.y@awnm.aefw.kb> <20060608192202.GA559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>	<l.mj@ln.gw.ntu.irvpi> <hyyivv.onbzr.tsblgv@iu.iiupi>	<20060608203814.GC559@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>	<xpokbi.suqfd@uvoo.piiup.iu.iiafh>	<20060609004226.GG21377@localhost.localdomain>	<449B122B.9020505@quadratic.net> <lv3bdwq1nq.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <449B3A47.30005@quadratic.net>

G. Matthew Rice wrote:

>david thornton <david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org> writes:
>  
>
>>>Faster would be
>>>
>>>   { local $/; $var = <INPUT>; }
>>>      
>>>
>>I realize there's not much to it, but can you walk us through "local $/" ? I
>>love brief code, just it's sometimes hard to understand.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, let's break it up:
>
>{                 # Start a new block (and new scope)
>  local $/;       # Define a locally scoped variable called $/ initialized to
>                  # undef.  This is the 'input record separator' which is
>                  # a '\n' by default.
>  $var = <INPUT>; # Since 'nothing' separates records, the first read will
>                  # read in everything.
>}                 # end of scope; $/ goes back to whatever it was before. 
>
>You should do a little reading up on what 'local' means, too.  There are a
>number of scopes for variables in perl; global, local, my, our. (did I miss
>any?).
>
>HTH,
>  
>
genius! thanks for that.
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From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 15:41:14 2006
From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:41:14 -0400
Subject: LPIC exam
In-Reply-To: <20060620204512.92536.qmail-ySOG5rqd6taA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060620204512.92536.qmail@web50812.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1151077274.5163.42.camel@localhost.localdomain>

IBM offers on-line LPIC exam prep:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/lpi/



On Tue, 2006-20-06 at 16:45 -0400, hui xu wrote:
> Could anybody tell me where has a good training course on linux admin?
> a good trainning means not only for exam but can really learn
> something deep.
>  
> Thanks!
> hui
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> "G. Matthew Rice" <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>         "Christopher Browne" writes:
>         > Matthew is quite likely on the mailing list; if he has plans
>         for any
>         > discounted LPIC offerings, that's certainly something for
>         him to speak
>         > to.
>         
>         Yes, we can do an exam session. Space permitting.
>         
>         Historically, we've done these at NewTLUG meetings but, if we
>         can get the
>         room at UofT, we could do one there, too.
>         
>         So, how about this:
>         
>         Aug 8 - TLUG
>         Aug 22 - NewTLUG (not certain where it'll be - seneca @york or
>         IBM)
>         
>         I'll talk to Herb about room for the NewTLUG site. Who should
>         I speak with
>         about the TLUG meeting, though?
>         
>         
>         Also, send me an e-mail if you are interested as well as which
>         exams. If I
>         don't get any e-mails in the next week, I'll assume that
>         there's no interest
>         in the session.
>         
>         I'll get final price confirmation but they should be $50 CAD
>         (GST included)
>         as they were last time.
>         
>         Lastly, it's only the 101 and 102 exams that are available
>         now.
>         
>         Regards,
>         -- 
>         g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca
>         phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20
>         http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products
>         --
>         The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>         TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
>         columns
>         How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
> 
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From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 15:01:40 2006
From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:01:40 -0400
Subject: Rogers Portable Internet
Message-ID: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone use the new wireless Rogers Portable Internet
(http://www.shoprogers.com/Store/Cable/InternetContent/portable.asp)?
If so, are there any problems setting it up in Linux? Can I use a
router to share it between 2 computers?

Thanks for any info!

-Steve.
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From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 16:01:05 2006
From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:01:05 -0400
Subject: Free computer: committed to gentleman
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060620020924.6ef71b62-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <3.0.6.16.20060620020924.6ef71b62@mail.look.ca>
Message-ID: <449C1041.6060604@interlog.com>

James McIntosh wrote:
> If I had realized that this would take so much of my time, I might have
> asked for some money.

If you are finding that no one is that anxious to get the free computer I 
would say you should have just donated it to ReBoot. I'm sure they would take 
it off your hands. I believe they even give you a tax receipt for donations.

A PII 350 isn't a bad machine and would be useful to someone. It would just 
need a little more RAM and possibly a bigger hard drive depending on what 
someone wanted to do with it. I still run a PII 266MHz machine and am happy 
with it for most of what I do.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172        |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus:
                                   |  Try to assimilate the world!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite>   |              -Pinkutus & the Borg
--
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From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 15:09:36 2006
From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:09:36 -0400
Subject: Problems with Samba shared printers on two WinXP boxes
 - Mandriva LE2006
In-Reply-To: <1149436764.3710.49.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <4482E896.7010000@iprimus.ca> <1149436764.3710.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <449C0430.5040708@iprimus.ca>

John Van Ostrand wrote:

>On Sun, 2006-06-04 at 10:05 -0400, Clive DaSilva wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a small network with a Mandriva LE2006 box sharing files and 
>>printers with two WinXP boxes using Samba. The XP boxes can see and use 
>>the files and the Lexmark z22 usb printer attached to the Linux box. The 
>>Linux box can see and use the files on the two XP boxes and can see the 
>>two printers attached to these boxes, but not use them. One is a HP 
>>psc1300 printer and the other is a Lexmark z25. Everytime I try to print 
>>a test page to one of these printers, I hear the printer print a 
>>carriage return and that is it. I set the XP boxes to be able to accept 
>>print requests from Unix boxes. I have been trying to sort this out for 
>>a long time, doing a lot of research, posted the question on 
>>Linuxquestions.org.
>>
>>Any ideas would be appreciated
>>    
>>
>
>If the printer is reacting to the print job (you mentioned hearing a CR)
>then the problem is the format of the print job arriving at the printer.
>I'm not familiar with the printer, but the specs online say it supports
>Linux and there are linux drivers for old Linux distros.
>
>It is possible that Windows is sending a printer reset and that is the
>movement that you hear.
>
>I think this is key to your problem. When printing through a Windows PC
>the print driver on Windows is not used, it assumes the print job is
>already in a format suitable for the printer. This means that a suitable
>print driver needs to be installed on the Linux system. The printer in
>question sounds like an inexpensive version. These printers, especially
>of that vintage, didn't support standard printer languages. They often
>didn't support plain text, but required a print driver to produce a
>bitmap suitable for the printer.
>
>Try the print drivers provided by Lexmark. A lot of changes to print
>spoolers has happened since then so there's a good chance that the
>drivers will not work out of the box.
>
>Another option is to try a similar print driver from the Linux distro.
>My Fedora has a Z23 support.
>
>I hope that helps.
>
>--
>The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>
>
>  
>
Well I finally solved this one. After a LOT of research, I read that 
this printer (LexmarkZ25) does not work well or at all with CUPS, and it 
was suggested that I try LPRng. I installed LPRng and it works like a 
dream .. !Yay!

Thanls to all who passed along suggestions

-- 
Clive DaSilva CMA
Tel : 416-421-2480
Cell: 416-560-8820
Mandriva Linux LE 2006 kernel-2.6.12_22mdk

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From hanoglu-ueTEkjIHS1VWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 17:24:48 2006
From: hanoglu-ueTEkjIHS1VWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:24:48 -0400
Subject: Rogers Portable Internet
In-Reply-To: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <449C23E0.4020008@ideefixe.com>

bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote:
> , are there any problems setting it up in Linux? Can I use a
> router to share it between 2 computers?

"The Portable Internet modem is compatible with standard wired and 
wireless routers, so you can easily share your Portable Internet 
connection across your own local network. For a wireless set up, simply 
connect the Portable Internet modem to the router. All computers with a 
wireless adapter will then be able to share the connection. For 
computers that do not have a built-in wireless adapter, simply install a 
wireless card (typically for laptops easily installs in a slot in the 
laptop) or a USB wireless adapter."

From; 
http://www.shoprogers.com/store/cable/internetcontent/portable_accessories.asp?shopperID=EFC6LXTBM7L18K4MPG67WGBE37CD9B3C

So there shouldn't be any problem with Linux and above configuration.

Burhan
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 18:27:12 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:27:12 -0400
Subject: defectivebydesign anti-drm phone campaign
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP10918F8B4B22C01E86A5F8B27A0@CEZ.ICE>

A little OT, but very much related to us Linux users: 
http://www.defectivebydesign has been doing a phone campaign today, 
getting members to call RIAA/BPI/IFPI/CRIA representatives and voicing 
their concerns about DRM technologies. To anyone interested in the 
issue, give our CRIA contact a call (leave a message, I think they've 
stopped taking calls in his office :)

Graham Henderson CRIA Canada 416-967-7272 ext. 102

If you are a member of the site, you can leave a "Target Report" for 
other users to read, essentially letting people know what you said, what 
kind of response (if any) you got etc.

Jamon

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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 19:39:40 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:39:40 -0400
Subject: Rogers Portable Internet
In-Reply-To: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606231239g47319838y47094977be82779e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/06, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org <bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Does anyone use the new wireless Rogers Portable Internet
> (http://www.shoprogers.com/Store/Cable/InternetContent/portable.asp)?
> If so, are there any problems setting it up in Linux? Can I use a
> router to share it between 2 computers?

Yes.

I've got wireless for my business -- because wired is impossible to
get working properly here.

It's working fine.. it's just a standard net connection.. we link it
to a D-Link AirPlus-G Wireless VPN Router and it handles all the
connectivity nonsense.. then the connection gets shared out via wires
and over the air.

It's working great...

.. except for the 30GB limit.  With no warnings and immediate
disconnection when it's violated.  Oh, and businesses have no way to
check their usage except to phone in.  Sad.
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From rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 21:06:39 2006
From: rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org (Robin Humble)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:06:39 -0400
Subject: syslog.conf network messages
In-Reply-To: <4498471F.7070400-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org>
References: <4498471F.7070400@totaltravelmarketing.com>
Message-ID: <20060623210639.GA13102@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 03:06:07PM -0400, Jose wrote:
>I've been looking at the man pages for syslog.conf, and I need to start 
>tracing the messages divided by services and more importantly by device 
>(network cards, drives, etc), but I am not sure how to do this.

syslog isn't really meant to be a per-device mechanism.
its facility/priority stuff is also kinda obscure and not super-useful
IMHO.

what sort of messages are you expecting from NICs and drives anyway?

for drives we use smartd which can email when there are problems.
the kernel driver for the NICs will mostly use printk/DPRINTK or
similar and so will get thrown in with all the other kernel messages.

there are also montoring systems like ganglia and nagios

overall I'd suggest just using tail -f and grep on an existing syslog
file. if you have lots of machines then you can centralise the syslog
data as well as keeping local copies. eg. put
  *.info @192.168.some.ip
at the end of syslog.conf, and start syslogd on the server with -r.
that minimises the number of files that you need to monitor for
unusual activity.

cheers,
robin
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 23 23:05:48 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:05:48 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
Message-ID: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net>

Is there a way (say, short script) to print 20 lines of text, then
small image, then 20 lines of text, then image, ... ?

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 04:00:27 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:00:27 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060621130525.GA9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<20060621130525.GA9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060624000027.cumcpw8aasw48wss@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 12:37:15AM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>> Does anyone have any experience making a
>> Netgear WG511 wireless card (PCMCIA) work
>> with Linux?  Thus far, I haven't even managed
>> to get Linux to acknowledge that the card exists.
>>
>> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
>> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
>> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
>> in Linux?
>
> Do you have pcmcia support working on your system?

To be honest, I'm not sure how to tell.  But I think so;
a graphical tool whose name I can't remember (currently running
Windows so I can send this mail) did show a change when I
plugged the card in and took it out.

>
> Which revision is the wifi card?

Again, I don't know how to find out.  But it was made in
Taiwan.

Here's the messages I get from the kernel (2.6.8), over and
over again, if I try to boot with the card plugged in:

  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: islpci_open()
  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: resetting device...
  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: uploading firmware...
  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: prism54: request_firmware() failed 
for 'isl3890'
  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: could not upload firmware ('isl3890')

Thanks to all who've responded, by the way!


>  According to this site
> http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_part.php?brandname=Netgear
> Most revisions can work with linux, but the marvell based one can not
> (no surprise there).
>
> Apparently there are 2 different v2 cards, one of which works well, one
> of which is hard to make work, and then the marvell which is imposible.
> This is worse than usual for a network equipment company.  Now they use
> the same model and revision on different hardware.  I think this is a
> good time to declare netgear off limits for purchases of new hardware.
> :)
>
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>


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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 04:35:22 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:35:22 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <20060624000027.cumcpw8aasw48wss-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>	<20060621130525.GA9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060624000027.cumcpw8aasw48wss@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP01EECB7C22AE20EF505BA9B27B0@CEZ.ICE>

moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Quoting Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> 
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 12:37:15AM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org 
>> wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any experience making a
>>> Netgear WG511 wireless card (PCMCIA) work
>>> with Linux?  Thus far, I haven't even managed
>>> to get Linux to acknowledge that the card exists.
>>>
>>> Oh, on a slightly related note -- my laptop has
>>> USB 1.1, and I'm thinking of getting a PCMCIA
>>> USB 2.0 cardbus.  Any experiences using them
>>> in Linux?
>>
>> Do you have pcmcia support working on your system?
> 
> To be honest, I'm not sure how to tell.  But I think so;
> a graphical tool whose name I can't remember (currently running
> Windows so I can send this mail) did show a change when I
> plugged the card in and took it out.
> 
>>
>> Which revision is the wifi card?
> 
> Again, I don't know how to find out.  But it was made in
> Taiwan.
> 
> Here's the messages I get from the kernel (2.6.8), over and
> over again, if I try to boot with the card plugged in:
> 
>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: islpci_open()
>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: resetting device...
>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: uploading firmware...
>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: prism54: request_firmware() failed for 
> 'isl3890'
>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: could not upload firmware 
> ('isl3890')
> 
> Thanks to all who've responded, by the way!

Try downloading the latest firmware image from http://prism54.org. 
Here's the link for the card: http://prism54.org/firmware/1.0.4.3.arm

Move that file into your firmware directory (/lib/firmware for me) and 
then try inserting the card.

Jamon
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 15:24:40 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:24:40 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for laptop batteries
Message-ID: <449D5938.6060109@alteeve.com>

Hi all,

   Sorry for being off-topic, but here is to hoping that someone can 
give me a pointer.

   I've got a Thinkpad a22m with crappy half-dead 3,600mAh batteries. I 
know they make a 6,600mAh one and I even found two sellers in the GTA 
who sold them (one on the Queensway by the 427 and one on or near 
O'Conner but I didn't bookmark them and now can't find them.

   So, my question is, can anyone recommend a good place to get laptop 
batteries? I'm in the west end but can go pretty much anywhere in the GTA.

   Thanks all!!

Madison
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 15:46:06 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:46:06 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060623230548.GA19454-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <20060624154606.GG9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 07:05:48PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> Is there a way (say, short script) to print 20 lines of text, then
> small image, then 20 lines of text, then image, ... ?

Besides using a web browser by making it html?

Probably possible with tetex, or openoffice, or you could generate some
postscript with a perl script or something.

Len Sorensen
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From shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 15:49:14 2006
From: shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Vlad)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:49:14 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for laptop batteries
In-Reply-To: <449D5938.6060109-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <449D5938.6060109@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <f654b3a10606240849v11ae02b6qcd362f888f550d7@mail.gmail.com>

        Hmm...

        Why not troll eBay for sellers that have said battery and are
in the GTA area?

        Just a thought...


        -- Vlad

On 6/24/06, Madison Kelly <linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>    Sorry for being off-topic, but here is to hoping that someone can
> give me a pointer.
>
>    I've got a Thinkpad a22m with crappy half-dead 3,600mAh batteries. I
> know they make a 6,600mAh one and I even found two sellers in the GTA
> who sold them (one on the Queensway by the 427 and one on or near
> O'Conner but I didn't bookmark them and now can't find them.
>
>    So, my question is, can anyone recommend a good place to get laptop
> batteries? I'm in the west end but can go pretty much anywhere in the GTA.
>
>    Thanks all!!
>
> Madison
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>


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From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 17:21:09 2006
From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:21:09 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for laptop batteries
In-Reply-To: <449D5938.6060109-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <449D5938.6060109@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP034922CF4FB9F555077919AD7B0@CEZ.ICE>



Dundas/Church. 
Right across from the Tiger Express is a dude that replaces the batteries
from dead laptop units/camcorders/ipods etc.

Very reasonable.  $65 for your battery with new batteries in it.








-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Madison
Kelly
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:25 AM
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Looking for laptop batteries

Hi all,

   Sorry for being off-topic, but here is to hoping that someone can 
give me a pointer.

   I've got a Thinkpad a22m with crappy half-dead 3,600mAh batteries. I 
know they make a 6,600mAh one and I even found two sellers in the GTA 
who sold them (one on the Queensway by the 427 and one on or near 
O'Conner but I didn't bookmark them and now can't find them.

   So, my question is, can anyone recommend a good place to get laptop 
batteries? I'm in the west end but can go pretty much anywhere in the GTA.

   Thanks all!!

Madison
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 18:29:16 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:29:16 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for laptop batteries
In-Reply-To: <f654b3a10606240849v11ae02b6qcd362f888f550d7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <449D5938.6060109@alteeve.com> <f654b3a10606240849v11ae02b6qcd362f888f550d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <449D847C.3040903@alteeve.com>

Vlad wrote:
>        Hmm...
> 
>        Why not troll eBay for sellers that have said battery and are
> in the GTA area?
> 
>        Just a thought...
> 
> 
>        -- Vlad

I've bought six things off ebay over the years... three things never 
showed up and I only got my money back on one of those three no-shows. 
So call me paranoid, but I don't trust ebay any more. :p

Madison
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From shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 18:48:33 2006
From: shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Vlad)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:48:33 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for laptop batteries
In-Reply-To: <449D847C.3040903-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <449D5938.6060109@alteeve.com>
	 <f654b3a10606240849v11ae02b6qcd362f888f550d7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <449D847C.3040903@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <f654b3a10606241148q138f9588s34523c89dd3b38c7@mail.gmail.com>

        After dozens of flawless transactions and not a single
complaint, I'll say that anecdotal evidence is pointless to cite; just
don't buy stuff from shady sellers. :P

        -- Vlad

On 6/24/06, Madison Kelly <linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Vlad wrote:
> >        Hmm...
> >
> >        Why not troll eBay for sellers that have said battery and are
> > in the GTA area?
> >
> >        Just a thought...
> >
> >
> >        -- Vlad
>
> I've bought six things off ebay over the years... three things never
> showed up and I only got my money back on one of those three no-shows.
> So call me paranoid, but I don't trust ebay any more. :p
>
> Madison
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>


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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 19:05:13 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:05:13 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060624154606.GG9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net> <20060624154606.GG9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060624190513.GA4900@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 11:46:06AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 07:05:48PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> > Is there a way (say, short script) to print 20 lines of text, then
> > small image, then 20 lines of text, then image, ... ?
> 
> Besides using a web browser by making it html?
> 
> Probably possible with tetex, or openoffice, or you could generate some
> postscript with a perl script or something.

In fact, someone suggested the same on <comp.os.linux.misc>.  I totally
forgot about HTML.  I was thinking LaTeX, but I wasn't sure whether
200MB TeX would be installed on target machine, which this whole thing
is supposed to run.

Then again, HTML requires browser...  I'll look into generating
Postscript directly.  That would be the cleanest solution.  If not, I'll
go with HTML template.

Thanks Lennart.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 19:46:02 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:46:02 -0400
Subject: Netgear card
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP01EECB7C22AE20EF505BA9B27B0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621003715.pb3c9q0yswkk0k0o@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<20060621130525.GA9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20060624000027.cumcpw8aasw48wss@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<BAYC1-PASMTP01EECB7C22AE20EF505BA9B27B0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <20060624154602.2ifrel5euscsgooc@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>:

> moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>> Here's the messages I get from the kernel (2.6.8), over and
>> over again, if I try to boot with the card plugged in:
>>
>>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: islpci_open()
>>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: resetting device...
>>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: uploading firmware...
>>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: prism54: request_firmware() failed 
>> for 'isl3890'
>>  Jun 23 20:38:25 zermelo kernel: eth1: could not upload firmware ('isl3890')
>>
>> Thanks to all who've responded, by the way!
>
> Try downloading the latest firmware image from http://prism54.org. 
> Here's the link for the card: http://prism54.org/firmware/1.0.4.3.arm
>
> Move that file into your firmware directory (/lib/firmware for me) 
> and then try inserting the card.

That worked, thanks much!  For me the directory was
/usr/lib/hotplug/firmware and I had to rename
1.0.4.3.arm to isl3890 .  As soon as I did that,
the little green light on the card went on; I didn't
even have to take the card out and reinsert it!  Then
I had to copy the relevant files to make PPPoE work
in /etc/ppp/peers, making a wireless version (only change
was eth0->eth1).

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From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 24 21:48:27 2006
From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer)
Date: 24 Jun 2006 17:48:27 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060624190513.GA4900-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net>
	<20060624154606.GG9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20060624190513.GA4900@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <lty7vmw7h0.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> writes:

> On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 11:46:06AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 07:05:48PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> > > Is there a way (say, short script) to print 20 lines of text, then
> > > small image, then 20 lines of text, then image, ... ?
> > 
> > Besides using a web browser by making it html?
> > 
> > Probably possible with tetex, or openoffice, or you could generate some
> > postscript with a perl script or something.
> 
> In fact, someone suggested the same on <comp.os.linux.misc>.  I totally
> forgot about HTML.  I was thinking LaTeX, but I wasn't sure whether
> 200MB TeX would be installed on target machine, which this whole thing
> is supposed to run.
> 
> Then again, HTML requires browser...  I'll look into generating
> Postscript directly.  That would be the cleanest solution.

Depending on your definition of "clean". PS requires you to position text
(and images) explicitly. Consequently, you'll have to write PS routines to
fill your 20 lines of text and you may need to provide your PS program with
some details of the output device. There are examples of doing this kind of
thing in the PostScript Cookbook (also known as the blue book) which, IIRC,
is available on-line from Adobe.

Simpler would be to use groff which is likely to be installed on the target
machine.

-- 
tim writer <tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>                                  starnix inc.
647.722.5301                                      toronto, ontario, canada
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 02:04:53 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:04:53 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
In-Reply-To: <lty7vmw7h0.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net> <20060624154606.GG9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060624190513.GA4900@node1.opengeometry.net> <lty7vmw7h0.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <20060625020453.GA22067@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 05:48:27PM -0400, Tim Writer wrote:
> William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 11:46:06AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 07:05:48PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> > > > Is there a way (say, short script) to print 20 lines of text, then
> > > > small image, then 20 lines of text, then image, ... ?
> > > 
> > > Besides using a web browser by making it html?
> > > 
> > > Probably possible with tetex, or openoffice, or you could generate some
> > > postscript with a perl script or something.
> > 
> > In fact, someone suggested the same on <comp.os.linux.misc>.  I totally
> > forgot about HTML.  I was thinking LaTeX, but I wasn't sure whether
> > 200MB TeX would be installed on target machine, which this whole thing
> > is supposed to run.
> > 
> > Then again, HTML requires browser...  I'll look into generating
> > Postscript directly.  That would be the cleanest solution.
> 
> Depending on your definition of "clean". PS requires you to position text
> (and images) explicitly. Consequently, you'll have to write PS routines to
> fill your 20 lines of text and you may need to provide your PS program with
> some details of the output device. There are examples of doing this kind of
> thing in the PostScript Cookbook (also known as the blue book) which, IIRC,
> is available on-line from Adobe.
> 
> Simpler would be to use groff which is likely to be installed on the target
> machine.

I may have found a solution.  While reading up on 'html2ps', I found
GNU 'enscript'.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 02:20:22 2006
From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:20:22 -0400
Subject: What's the best free version of SUSE?
Message-ID: <449DF2E6.20501@utoronto.ca>

If one were to install SUSE Linux, which the best free version?

Ivan.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 02:24:57 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:24:57 -0400
Subject: What's the best free version of SUSE?
In-Reply-To: <449DF2E6.20501-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <449DF2E6.20501@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <449DF3F9.9060709@rogers.com>

Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
> If one were to install SUSE Linux, which the best free version?

Define "best".
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From ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 03:36:45 2006
From: ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ralph Ellis)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:36:45 -0400
Subject: What's the best free version of SUSE?
In-Reply-To: <449DF3F9.9060709-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <449DF2E6.20501@utoronto.ca> <449DF3F9.9060709@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <449E04CD.6060100@netscape.ca>

James Knott wrote:
> Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
>   
>> If one were to install SUSE Linux, which the best free version?
>>     
>
> Define "best".
>   
I think that Suse 10.1 is the most complete version that they have out 
with the broadest hardware support. I have used Suse 10.0 before and 
they both work well, are stable and have a huge range of software 
bundled with them. Suse 10.1 also includes AppArmour and several anti 
virus options. The only thing that you need to watch out for in Suse  
10.1 is that the first version out of the gate had some problems with 
the zen package updater software. Just make sure to run Yast Online 
Update in the first few boots to get the appropriate fix for that. 
Alternatively, you could use the Smart program to do updates either 
directly or with Smart Gui or KSmart Tray in KDE.
If you have a reasonably powerful 3D video card, the Xgl eye candy with 
the 3D desktop is a real show stopper. If your card is not officially 
supported, there are some work arounds that you can find in Novell's 
Cool Solutions section. Search for nVidia and Xgl. nVidia cards seem to 
work better than ATI for the Xgl option but in either case you need the 
proprietary software drivers. Curiously, the ATI X300 to X800 seem to 
work pretty well with Xgl but the higher level cards are touchier at 
least until ATI sorts out driver issues.
I have always been impressed with Suse. You do have to do some work to 
maximize the multimedia options such as download Mplayer and get the 
Win32 codecs but these are fairly minor issues that are resolved quickly.
The OS supports 64bit with AMD and Intel, 32 bit pentiums and Power Pc.
Ralph Ellis
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 06:28:20 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 02:28:20 -0400
Subject: Printing text, image, text, image, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060625020453.GA22067-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060623230548.GA19454@wp.magstar.net> <20060624154606.GG9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060624190513.GA4900@node1.opengeometry.net> <lty7vmw7h0.fsf@newsol.starnix.com> <20060625020453.GA22067@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20060625062820.GA23113@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 10:04:53PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> I may have found a solution.  While reading up on 'html2ps', I found
> GNU 'enscript'.

Yes, it was under my nose all along.  'man enscript' says
    ^@epsf[options]{filename}

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 19:06:35 2006
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:06:35 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
In-Reply-To: <200606220126.02268.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net>
Message-ID: <20060625190635.GA1700@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 01:26:02AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote
> Hi
> 
> back in December we had an interesting thread about Linux and more
> generally FOSS in high school. It happens that I have an opportunity
> to discuss these topics at the Ministry of Education within a couple
> of days. I would appreciate if you had some links you would like
> to share.

  For any English and/or literature classes, consider the cost of copies
of Dickens' or Shakespeare's works.  Now imagine being able to pass them
out on CD for free, and it's perfectly legal, too.  Project Gutenberg to
the rescue.  See http://www.gutenberg.org for details.  There are lots
of cash-strapped school districts that would love those cost savings.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 19:22:54 2006
From: paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Paul Osman)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:22:54 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
In-Reply-To: <20060625190635.GA1700-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net> <20060625190635.GA1700@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <D3BCB84B-2F54-458C-8229-BC718621510D@enomaly.com>

On 25-Jun-06, at 3:06 PM, Walter Dnes wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 01:26:02AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote
>> Hi
>>
>> back in December we had an interesting thread about Linux and more
>> generally FOSS in high school. It happens that I have an opportunity
>> to discuss these topics at the Ministry of Education within a couple
>> of days. I would appreciate if you had some links you would like
>> to share.
>
>   For any English and/or literature classes, consider the cost of  
> copies
> of Dickens' or Shakespeare's works.  Now imagine being able to pass  
> them
> out on CD for free, and it's perfectly legal, too.  Project  
> Gutenberg to
> the rescue.  See http://www.gutenberg.org for details.  There are lots
> of cash-strapped school districts that would love those cost savings.

First off, that would require every student to have easy access to a  
computer, which isn't realistic (especially in cash-strapped  
schools). Secondly, a lot of people would react negatively to the  
idea of reading an entire book on a computer (believe it or not, the  
choice of a typeface, proper type setting, kerning, etc *does* matter  
when you're reading for long periods of time). If I was required to  
read Sophocles on a computer for my English class, I'd poke my own  
damn eyes out. Finally, if you're lucky enough to be in an area like  
Toronto (or any major city I'd presume), most popular "classic" works  
can be obtained easily at 2nd hand bookstores for a couple dollars  
(not necessarily as cheap as a CD, but could approach the cost of the  
CD + Labour time to burn the necessary data). At the secondary school  
I went to, the first day of my 20th Century Lit class was spent  
compiling a list of such stores and their whereabouts. A better  
solution I think.

Then there's always the public library.

Cheers,
--
Paul 
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From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 20:56:12 2006
From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400
Subject: Linux in Education
In-Reply-To: <D3BCB84B-2F54-458C-8229-BC718621510D-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <200606220126.02268.marc@lijour.net> <20060625190635.GA1700@waltdnes.org> <D3BCB84B-2F54-458C-8229-BC718621510D@enomaly.com>
Message-ID: <200606251656.12614.marc@lijour.net>

On June 25, 2006 03:22 pm, Paul Osman wrote:
> First off, that would require every student to have easy access to a ?
> computer, which isn't realistic (especially in cash-strapped ?
> schools).

Well, we always have the 100-dollar laptop project on-going.
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

This month I could talk to one of the project members. They use quite 
interesting techniques to make that work.
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 23:05:17 2006
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:05:17 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
Message-ID: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>


"Warren Buffett, the world's second-richest man, said he will soon start giving away almost all of his fortune to charity, most of it going to a foundation controlled by the world's richest man, Bill Gates, Fortune magazine reported Sunday."

man this is sad!
give the world most sucessful mob boss 30+ billion $ to selectively spend on "good deeds".
Man i wanna frick'n puke.

Here's a thought Warren ... donate 2 billion of it to linux, and in 5 years you'll be the richest man
after Gates tanks, but i guess that never occured to him!
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 23:32:08 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:32:08 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>

ted leslie wrote:
> "Warren Buffett, the world's second-richest man, said he will soon start giving away almost all of his fortune to charity, most of it going to a foundation controlled by the world's richest man, Bill Gates, Fortune magazine reported Sunday."
> 
> man this is sad!
> give the world most sucessful mob boss 30+ billion $ to selectively spend on "good deeds".
> Man i wanna frick'n puke.
> 
> Here's a thought Warren ... donate 2 billion of it to linux, and in 5 years you'll be the richest man
> after Gates tanks, but i guess that never occured to him!

"The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation on Sunday announced $258.3 million
in new grants to fund the development of a vaccine and new drugs to
combat malaria."

http://news.com.com/Gates+charity+boosts+funding+for+malaria+vaccine+research/2100-11393_3-5923651.html

"New York, NY (May 25, 2006) ? The Global Alliance for TB Drug
Development (TB Alliance) announced today that it is receiving $104
million from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to advance a pipeline
of new TB drugs over the next five years in the global pursuit to find a
faster and more effective cure for tuberculosis."

http://www.tballiance.org/gates.asp

"The foundation's grants have provided funds for underrepresented
minority college scholarships, AIDS prevention, diseases that strike
mainly in the Third World, and other causes. The Foundation currently
provides 17% (US$86 million in 2006) of the world budget for the
attempted eradication of poliomyelitis (polio)[3]. In June 1999, Gates
and his wife donated US$5 billion to the foundation. They have donated
more than US$100 million to help children suffering from AIDS. On
January 26, 2005, it was announced that the Foundation had made a
further contribution of US$750 million to the international Vaccine Fund
to help fight diseases such as diphtheria, whooping cough, measles,
poliomyelitis and yellow fever. As of 2006, the foundation has an
endowment of approximately US$26.9 billion. To maintain its status as a
charitable foundation, it must donate at least 5% of its assets each
year. Thus the donations from the foundation each year would amount to
over $1 billion at a minimum."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

While there is likely much spin and people involved in these groups
making everything sound all rosy and such, those are some significant
numbers. Even if Buffet donates only $1billion a year through Gates, who
is loosing? Granted there may be a distribution pipeline, drug companies
skimming etc. etc. but still, Linux is irrelevant in this case... since
anything is better than nothing with such large sums involved.

Jamon

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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 23:46:40 2006
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:46:40 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
 head!
In-Reply-To: <449F1CF8.8020709-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	<449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>

you are of course assuming that the stamping out of innovation over 7-10 years of MS
hasn't amounted to global loses of in excess of  trillions of dollars, making all these
donation numbers strictly "tiddly winks" of a return against the massive losses racked up world wide
over the years.

-tl

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:32:08 -0400
Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> ted leslie wrote:
> > "Warren Buffett, the world's second-richest man, said he will soon start giving away almost all of his fortune to charity, most of it going to a foundation controlled by the world's richest man, Bill Gates, Fortune magazine reported Sunday."
> > 
> > man this is sad!
> > give the world most sucessful mob boss 30+ billion $ to selectively spend on "good deeds".
> > Man i wanna frick'n puke.
> > 
> > Here's a thought Warren ... donate 2 billion of it to linux, and in 5 years you'll be the richest man
> > after Gates tanks, but i guess that never occured to him!
> 
> "The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation on Sunday announced $258.3 million
> in new grants to fund the development of a vaccine and new drugs to
> combat malaria."
> 
> http://news.com.com/Gates+charity+boosts+funding+for+malaria+vaccine+research/2100-11393_3-5923651.html
> 
> "New York, NY (May 25, 2006) ? The Global Alliance for TB Drug
> Development (TB Alliance) announced today that it is receiving $104
> million from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to advance a pipeline
> of new TB drugs over the next five years in the global pursuit to find a
> faster and more effective cure for tuberculosis."
> 
> http://www.tballiance.org/gates.asp
> 
> "The foundation's grants have provided funds for underrepresented
> minority college scholarships, AIDS prevention, diseases that strike
> mainly in the Third World, and other causes. The Foundation currently
> provides 17% (US$86 million in 2006) of the world budget for the
> attempted eradication of poliomyelitis (polio)[3]. In June 1999, Gates
> and his wife donated US$5 billion to the foundation. They have donated
> more than US$100 million to help children suffering from AIDS. On
> January 26, 2005, it was announced that the Foundation had made a
> further contribution of US$750 million to the international Vaccine Fund
> to help fight diseases such as diphtheria, whooping cough, measles,
> poliomyelitis and yellow fever. As of 2006, the foundation has an
> endowment of approximately US$26.9 billion. To maintain its status as a
> charitable foundation, it must donate at least 5% of its assets each
> year. Thus the donations from the foundation each year would amount to
> over $1 billion at a minimum."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
> 
> While there is likely much spin and people involved in these groups
> making everything sound all rosy and such, those are some significant
> numbers. Even if Buffet donates only $1billion a year through Gates, who
> is loosing? Granted there may be a distribution pipeline, drug companies
> skimming etc. etc. but still, Linux is irrelevant in this case... since
> anything is better than nothing with such large sums involved.
> 
> Jamon
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 25 23:54:38 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:54:38 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>	<449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca> <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca>

ted leslie wrote:
> you are of course assuming that the stamping out of innovation over 7-10 years of MS
> hasn't amounted to global loses of in excess of  trillions of dollars, making all these
> donation numbers strictly "tiddly winks" of a return against the massive losses racked up world wide
> over the years.
> 
> -tl

Indeed I am in this case. Call me a bleeding heart, but I do think
sometimes instead of helping ourselves make things incrementally better,
our efforts and dollars would make much more of a tangible difference in
the quality of life for other people who are suffering in the world. Now
of course Linux can play a part in that endeavor, don't get me wrong,
for computing is not simply a lifestyle choice for many now.

It's tough to not think about things in binary -- I do agree that if
said hypothetical (or real for that matter) losses amount to any
substantial amount you could argue that innovation and such would mean
more wealth to redistribute/spend on said charitable endeavors. But
again, the fact is, Buffet seems to be attempting to do some good, as
are Gates and his wife. There is such a thing as redemption in my mind,
and I honestly think it would be a great thing indeed (ironic even?) for
the Gates' and Buffet to spend the money they've extracted from people
and companies over the years on charitable projects that we would never
have donated to in the first place for wont of maintaining our petty
middle class comforts.

That being said, I wouldn't have discovered computers without said
middle-class status... so it goes. Regardless, we're here now, someone
is trying to make a difference in the world. That someone *can* affect
the quality of life of a large number of people to a considerable
degree. Let's not forget that is really my entire point.

Jamon
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 01:17:51 2006
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the 
     head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
    <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>
    <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <50477.207.188.65.48.1151284671.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>


The United States in particular has a tradition of 'robber barons'
contributing back to society in their later years, or in their estates.
>From wikipedia, under Robber Baron (Industrialist):
-----------------------------------------------------------
New York City owes much of its monumental architecture and many of its
museums to the generous patronage of these men, most notably Rockefeller
Center, Grand Central Terminal, Cooper Union, The Frick Collection,
Carnegie Hall and The Astor Library. Carnegie sought to encourage literacy
and funded the establishment of 2500 public libraries across the U.S. and
around the world. However, the robber barons contributed minor fractions
of their wealth to charity[citation needed], and during their lives they
did not appear to have any particular inclination towards the perceived
common good. Although men such as J. P. Morgan were sometimes noted for
such misanthropic statements as "I owe the public nothing", Morgan
neverthless made significant contributions to the arts and universities.
-------------------------------------------------------

Gates is just carrying on that tradition. I'm no admirer of Microsoft, but
the fact that he is doing this at all - and at a relatively young age - is
positive.

Peter

-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 02:02:09 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:02:09 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
 head!
In-Reply-To: <449F223E.70706-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	<449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>
	<20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
	<449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:54:38 -0400
Jamon Camisso got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> There is such a thing as redemption in my mind,
> and I honestly think it would be a great thing indeed (ironic even?) for
> the Gates' and Buffet to spend the money they've extracted from people
> and companies over the years on charitable projects that we would never
> have donated to in the first place for wont of maintaining our petty
> middle class comforts.
> 
> That being said, I wouldn't have discovered computers without said
> middle-class status... so it goes. Regardless, we're here now, someone
> is trying to make a difference in the world. That someone *can* affect
> the quality of life of a large number of people to a considerable
> degree. Let's not forget that is really my entire point.

To my mind, I can see both sides. It is, as you say, possible (I hope for my
own sake!) to redeem oneself after past misdeeds.

What sticks in my craw is the point that Ted, if I understand correctly, was
trying to make.

You are correct that computing in general is mostly a concern of the wealthier
nations, and our 'petty middly class comforts'. Most people on the planet are
concerned with their next meal more than what's on Slashdot ;-)

However, I would wager that, sans M$'s monopoly, computing, free software, and
the benefits that result from connectivity, would *not* be limited to us in our
comfy Western Middle Class abodes.

Organization is one very important key to prosperity, and were it not for Gates
and others, I believe that computing technologies would have levelled the
playing field somewhat between the 'haves' and 'have nots' (here comes William
Park..."Commie!" LOL!)

In any case, history's been written, and Bill is trying, I guess to repay all
the money he stole, but I don't think he should be getting medals for it,
considering how he got it in the first place.

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
///////////////////////////
"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be
afraid of the People." -- V.
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 02:33:42 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:33:42 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>
	 <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net> <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca>
	 <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606251933r659aeb43j5f637b2fa0a59ff0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/25/06, JoeHill <joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> In any case, history's been written, and Bill is trying, I guess to repay all
> the money he stole, but I don't think he should be getting medals for it,
> considering how he got it in the first place.

Regrettably, what *isn't* obvious is what the alternatives would have been.

It seems to me that there was a considerable "historical
inevitability" to the emergence, in the early '90s, of a free Unix;
had it not been Linux, it might have been some BSD variant or (less
likely) Hurd.

But in the absence of Micro Soft, a New Mexico company, having grown
into Microsoft of Redmond, it is by no means obvious that the void
would have been filled by Linux or its alternatives.

In effect, Microsoft emerged because IBM was under some peculiar
pressures due to ongoing antitrust lawsuit activities.  At the time,
obvious alternatives for one product or another included Adobe, Apple,
Borland, Digital Research, DEC, IBM, Lotus, Sun and Visicorp.  None of
these are particularly "salt and light" compared to Microsoft; all
have their own bits of "seeming danger to freedom."

A MSFT-free world could easily be just as bad...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 02:57:42 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:57:42 -0400
Subject: Evolution vertical panes?
Message-ID: <1151290663.9503.3.camel@localhost>

I'm trying out Evolution for a week to see what features it has, and to
attempt to get a feel for the Gnome desktop (I'm a KDE fan). What I'm
wondering is if Evolution supports a vertical layout like the one
available in Thunderbird. I've poked around the menus and such but can't
seem to find an option to change the layout. 

Is this wrapping at 80 columns?

Thoughts?

Jamon

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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 05:20:48 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:20:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply
 message passing
In-Reply-To: <200606221627.03025.ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>
 <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>

| QNX was the first commercial OS to embrace this S/R/R paradigm for 
| encapsulating complexity of software applications. ? ?They did this way back 
| in the very early days of PC's in the early 80's. ? In fact QNX predates 
| Microsoft.

QNX Software Systems was founded in 1980.  Microsoft was founded in
1975.

The S/R/R of QNX was copied from a series of University of Waterloo
experimental operating systems.  The QNX founders were students at
Waterloo.

From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 05:40:10 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:40:10 -0400
Subject: Evolution vertical panes?
In-Reply-To: <1151290663.9503.3.camel@localhost>
References: <1151290663.9503.3.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <449F3AFA.32096.51BABAB@pking123.sympatico.ca>

Yes you have 80 columns.  

Paul 

On 25 Jun 2006 at 22:57, Jamon Camisso spaketh these wourdes:

> I'm trying out Evolution for a week to see what features it has, and to
> attempt to get a feel for the Gnome desktop (I'm a KDE fan). What I'm
> wondering is if Evolution supports a vertical layout like the one
> available in Thunderbird. I've poked around the menus and such but can't
> seem to find an option to change the layout. 
> 
> Is this wrapping at 80 columns?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Jamon
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
> 
> 
> __________ NOD32 1.1622 (20060625) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 


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From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 12:02:05 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:02:05 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com> <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <200606260802.06625.ican@netrover.com>

I stand corrected.

bob


On Monday 26 June 2006 01:20 am, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | From: bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>
> |
> | QNX was the first commercial OS to embrace this S/R/R paradigm for
> | encapsulating complexity of software applications. ? ?They did this way
> | back in the very early days of PC's in the early 80's. ? In fact QNX
> | predates Microsoft.
>
> QNX Software Systems was founded in 1980.  Microsoft was founded in
> 1975.
>
> The S/R/R of QNX was copied from a series of University of Waterloo
> experimental operating systems.  The QNX founders were students at
> Waterloo.
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 12:27:31 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:27:31 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
	head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 19:05 -0400, ted leslie wrote:
> "Warren Buffett, the world's second-richest man, said he will soon start giving away almost all of his fortune to charity, most of it going to a foundation controlled by the world's richest man, Bill Gates, Fortune magazine reported Sunday."
> 
> man this is sad!
> give the world most sucessful mob boss 30+ billion $ to selectively spend on "good deeds".
> Man i wanna frick'n puke.
> 
> Here's a thought Warren ... donate 2 billion of it to linux, and in 5 years you'll be the richest man
> after Gates tanks, but i guess that never occured to him!

My concern with this was that the B&M Gates Foundation would tie
microsoft products to the donations. Does anyone know how much of this
is happening?
-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 

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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 12:41:12 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:41:12 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
In-Reply-To: <1151324851.22741.145.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606260541x64fd764l93d18519db2990ea@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, John Van Ostrand <john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My concern with this was that the B&M Gates Foundation would tie
> microsoft products to the donations. Does anyone know how much of this
> is happening?

This is precisely what I was thinking.

I donate licenses to my software, which is more or less free for me to
produce, and bill it at the cost for it to have been purchased at
full-price.  I disregard any silly "discounts" that might occur in the
real world for bulk purchases.

I thus ensure that certain numbers get bolstered and as a side-benefit
I work a little more towards locking in various industries with using
my tools.

Oh, I also benefit when those who get the gift of my license pay me to
purchase my other software which only works on that gift license.

Plus there's the free publicity.

And maybe I get to ignore my guilt for a while longer too.

And impress my friends.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 14:21:53 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:53 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com> <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20060626142153.GH9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 01:20:48AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> QNX Software Systems was founded in 1980.  Microsoft was founded in
> 1975.
> 
> The S/R/R of QNX was copied from a series of University of Waterloo
> experimental operating systems.  The QNX founders were students at
> Waterloo.

The QNX design mirrors the real time course at waterloo fairly closely.
It of course has gone way beyond the requirements for the course, but it
does use the same message passing concept encouraged in the course, and
it runs on the same type of hardware as was used in the course (maybe
still is, not sure).

Len Sorensen
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 14:33:06 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:33:06 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <1151324851.22741.145.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <449FF022.1040401@telly.org>

John Van Ostrand wrote:

>My concern with this was that the B&M Gates Foundation would tie microsoft products to the donations. Does anyone know how much of this is happening?
>  
>
If MS or B&G donates to a cause, the software used in the delivery of 
that cause is usually Microsoft because it's donated as part of the 
charitable contribution. (It's also cheaper to provide $X worth of 
software than $X worth of cash.) Use of MS software then tends to spread 
through the recipient organization, beyond the specific program being 
funded, for matters of simplicity. There is not to my knowledge any 
contractual demand that MS be used exclusively; however, orgs that 
receive such benefit are unwilling to do _anything_ that might be 
perceived to annoy or upset their benefactor. Combine this with the fact 
that there is often fierce competition amongst orgs who want the money.

As a result, even orgs who are inclined to support open source have a 
double disincentive to use it anywhere in their organization. The 
availability of (legal) free Microsoft software, together with a 
well-known (and largely accurate) perception that Microsoft and Gates 
don't like open source leads to a self-imposed (rather than explicitly 
forced) embargo. The donors get to say that they do nothing to prevent 
their recipient orgs from using open source, yet none gets used.

This problem is nothing new, and predates the creation of the B&MG 
initiative. I first encountered it within the United Nations Development 
Program. In 2003, the UNDP was quite open source friendly, and started a 
special open source lab and program:
http://www.apdip.net/projects/2003/iosn
In 2004 Microsoft signed a deal with the UNDP offering $1B of support. 
While a lot of that support was in the form of contributed software 
licenses and forgiven piracy, there were also a good amount of computers 
and cash involved.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Jan04/01-23WorldEconomicForumPR.mspx
Almost overnight, support for open source within the UNDP worldwide 
evaporated, without a single formal request coming from Microsoft. The 
IOSN project was maintained, but appeared to evolve into something of a 
rogue. It's certainly underfunded, succeeds largely on the sheer 
willpower of its people, and has been moved from Malaysia (which has a 
very active and government-supported open source movement) to Thailand 
(in which there is some activity but nowhere near like Malaysia's).

In other words, I'm fairly certain that there is no formalized required 
abandonment of open source by orgs receiving Microsoft or Gates money. 
They don't need one. There is certainly an inferred and assumed dislike 
of open source, and people don't want to risk the patronage.

While of course it would be hugely bad press if the foundation were to 
cut off funds from an org using open source, that will never happen. 
Methods of coercion can be subtle enough to be essentially unprovable.

- Evan

--
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From be_a_sport-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 14:43:25 2006
From: be_a_sport-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kush)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:43:25 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <449FF022.1040401-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org>
Message-ID: <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com>

This is corruption thru bribing. Only nobody says it that way. They call 
it smart marketing.

The same is the case with MS providing ( free with a hidden agenda) 
software to educational institutions and libraries in Canada now to tie 
up the next generation into using its products and not opt for open source.

Kush

Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> If MS or B&G donates to a cause, the software used in the delivery of 
> that cause is usually Microsoft because it's donated as part of the 
> charitable contribution. (It's also cheaper to provide $X worth of 
> software than $X worth of cash.) Use of MS software then tends to 
> spread through the recipient organization, beyond the specific program 
> being funded, for matters of simplicity. There is not to my knowledge 
> any contractual demand that MS be used exclusively; however, orgs that 
> receive such benefit are unwilling to do _anything_ that might be 
> perceived to annoy or upset their benefactor. Combine this with the 
> fact that there is often fierce competition amongst orgs who want the 
> money.
>
> As a result, even orgs who are inclined to support open source have a 
> double disincentive to use it anywhere in their organization. The 
> availability of (legal) free Microsoft software, together with a 
> well-known (and largely accurate) perception that Microsoft and Gates 
> don't like open source leads to a self-imposed (rather than explicitly 
> forced) embargo. The donors get to say that they do nothing to prevent 
> their recipient orgs from using open source, yet none gets used.
>
> This problem is nothing new, and predates the creation of the B&MG 
> initiative. I first encountered it within the United Nations 
> Development Program. In 2003, the UNDP was quite open source friendly, 
> and started a special open source lab and program:
> http://www.apdip.net/projects/2003/iosn
> In 2004 Microsoft signed a deal with the UNDP offering $1B of support. 
> While a lot of that support was in the form of contributed software 
> licenses and forgiven piracy, there were also a good amount of 
> computers and cash involved.
> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Jan04/01-23WorldEconomicForumPR.mspx 
>
> Almost overnight, support for open source within the UNDP worldwide 
> evaporated, without a single formal request coming from Microsoft. The 
> IOSN project was maintained, but appeared to evolve into something of 
> a rogue. It's certainly underfunded, succeeds largely on the sheer 
> willpower of its people, and has been moved from Malaysia (which has a 
> very active and government-supported open source movement) to Thailand 
> (in which there is some activity but nowhere near like Malaysia's).
>
> In other words, I'm fairly certain that there is no formalized 
> required abandonment of open source by orgs receiving Microsoft or 
> Gates money. They don't need one. There is certainly an inferred and 
> assumed dislike of open source, and people don't want to risk the 
> patronage.
>
> While of course it would be hugely bad press if the foundation were to 
> cut off funds from an org using open source, that will never happen. 
> Methods of coercion can be subtle enough to be essentially unprovable.
>
> - Evan
>
> -

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 14:58:52 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:58:52 +0000
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <20060626142153.GH9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>
	 <20060626142153.GH9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606260758l11fb119cu49b69a8a48dae1c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 01:20:48AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> > QNX Software Systems was founded in 1980.  Microsoft was founded in
> > 1975.
> >
> > The S/R/R of QNX was copied from a series of University of Waterloo
> > experimental operating systems.  The QNX founders were students at
> > Waterloo.
>
> The QNX design mirrors the real time course at waterloo fairly closely.
> It of course has gone way beyond the requirements for the course, but it
> does use the same message passing concept encouraged in the course, and
> it runs on the same type of hardware as was used in the course (maybe
> still is, not sure).

During my "tenure" at UW, the RT course was running on 80186 systems.
That's the Intel CPU that was used a lot for embedded apps, but
barely, if ever, got seen on desktops.

The year I graduated was the year students had the option of either:
a) Controlling the model train, or
b) Controlling a robot arm that would move balls around in conjunction
with an apparatus where the balls would run around on grooves...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 15:06:13 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:06:13 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <449FF28D.8010901-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <449FF7E5.10704@telly.org>

Kush wrote:

> This is corruption thru bribing. Only nobody says it that way. They 
> call it smart marketing.


This is a problem but it's important not to hand-wring too long over it. 
The rise of open source has always been about the triumph of the 
grassroots over the power of marketing, and this is no exception.

And, lest we forget, the open source world is also the (relatively 
recent) recipient of substantial individual philanthropy, the result of 
which is Ubuntu Linux. While Shuttleworth is no Gates, his money has 
gone more directly and unabashedly towards support.

- Evan

--
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 15:10:12 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:10:12 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <449FF7E5.10704-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com> <449FF7E5.10704@telly.org>
Message-ID: <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5@visibleassets.com>

BTW, Y'all know Gates, and Buffet play bridge together.

--dc--
On 26-Jun-06, at 11:06 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

> Kush wrote:
>
>> This is corruption thru bribing. Only nobody says it that way.  
>> They call it smart marketing.
>
>
> This is a problem but it's important not to hand-wring too long  
> over it. The rise of open source has always been about the triumph  
> of the grassroots over the power of marketing, and this is no  
> exception.
>
> And, lest we forget, the open source world is also the (relatively  
> recent) recipient of substantial individual philanthropy, the  
> result of which is Ubuntu Linux. While Shuttleworth is no Gates,  
> his money has gone more directly and unabashedly towards support.
>
> - Evan
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 15:18:45 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:18:45 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside
	the	head!
In-Reply-To: <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
	 <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com>
	 <449FF7E5.10704@telly.org>
	 <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <1151335125.10260.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2006-26-06 at 11:10 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> BTW, Y'all know Gates, and Buffet play MONOPOLY together.

Fixed that for you.  ;-)

--
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 15:45:17 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:45:17 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com> <449FF7E5.10704@telly.org> <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <44A0010D.5040708@telly.org>

Dave Cramer wrote:

> BTW, Y'all know Gates, and Buffet play bridge together.


I thought that Gates played poker with Ted Turner, Michael Eisner, and 
Carter Pewterschmidt.

- Evan
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 16:21:01 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:21:01 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606260758l11fb119cu49b69a8a48dae1c3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com> <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606260111450.4774@redshift.mimosa.com> <20060626142153.GH9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <d6d6637f0606260758l11fb119cu49b69a8a48dae1c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060626162101.GI9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 02:58:52PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:
> During my "tenure" at UW, the RT course was running on 80186 systems.
> That's the Intel CPU that was used a lot for embedded apps, but
> barely, if ever, got seen on desktops.

I guess the Unisys Icons don't count. :)

> The year I graduated was the year students had the option of either:
> a) Controlling the model train, or
> b) Controlling a robot arm that would move balls around in conjunction
> with an apparatus where the balls would run around on grooves...

Yeah I did the same stuff, although we got to use an amazingly fast
486/33 with 4MB ram.  So much memory. :)

The robot arm was removed in the late 90s, not long before I graduated.

Len Sorensen
--
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 16:52:10 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:52:10 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside
	the	head!
In-Reply-To: <44A0010D.5040708-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
	 <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com>
	 <449FF7E5.10704@telly.org>
	 <04708CE4-7261-4B0F-ADA8-496E283120F5@visibleassets.com>
	 <44A0010D.5040708@telly.org>
Message-ID: <1151340730.22741.164.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 11:45 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

> I thought that Gates played poker with Ted Turner, Michael Eisner, and 
> Carter Pewterschmidt.


Sweeeet.
-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 
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From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 17:28:04 2006
From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:28:04 -0400
Subject: Excessive Uploading Found on DSL Line
Message-ID: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom@eol.ca>

I recently had a problem with my EOL DSL line. It turns out Bell had to
adjust the error correction. When I talked to the EOL tech afterward,
she said there was an excessive amount of uploading on my connection.
Naturally, she suspected a virus or something like that until I told
her I use Linux. Then she suggested that I might have a program on my
system that's phoning home. So now I have two questions:
1. Is there program I can use to locate a chatty app on the system?
2. Is there another reason for this uploading activity?

Note that I haven't included any stats because I'm not sure what
program to use to measure this uploading.

By the way, I used both chkrootkit and rkhunter to check for rootkits
and found nothing amiss. I checked my firewall at ShieldsUp and it's
still in stealth mode (however accurate/meaningful that is).

Thanks.


-- 
Glen Strom
gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 17:31:41 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:31:41 -0400
Subject: Excessive Uploading Found on DSL Line
In-Reply-To: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <20060626173141.GE23347@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

This is why firewalls should filter outbound traffic.  Configure
IPtables to log outbound dropped packets.  You might also consider using
Snort.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 24 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 18:24:24 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:24:24 -0400
Subject: Excessive Uploading Found on DSL Line
In-Reply-To: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <1151346264.22741.204.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:28 -0400, Glen Strom wrote:
> I recently had a problem with my EOL DSL line. It turns out Bell had to
> adjust the error correction. When I talked to the EOL tech afterward,
> she said there was an excessive amount of uploading on my connection.
> Naturally, she suspected a virus or something like that until I told
> her I use Linux. Then she suggested that I might have a program on my
> system that's phoning home. So now I have two questions:
> 1. Is there program I can use to locate a chatty app on the system?
> 2. Is there another reason for this uploading activity?
> 
> Note that I haven't included any stats because I'm not sure what
> program to use to measure this uploading.
> 
> By the way, I used both chkrootkit and rkhunter to check for rootkits
> and found nothing amiss. I checked my firewall at ShieldsUp and it's
> still in stealth mode (however accurate/meaningful that is).


I use tcpdump to see what the traffic is. You would use a line like
this:

tcpdump -i ppp0 

This shows one or two lines for every packet. Make sure that you are on
the console (or accessing from your LAN) otherwise it will see your SSH
packets and list them which causes more ssh packets, etc.

There was also a program called ntop that can be used to see where the
traffic is going and which port it is originating from.

-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 22:12:52 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:12:52 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <449FF28D.8010901-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A05BE4.10707@rogers.com>

Kush wrote:
> This is corruption thru bribing. Only nobody says it that way. They call
> it smart marketing.
> 
> The same is the case with MS providing ( free with a hidden agenda)
> software to educational institutions and libraries in Canada now to tie
> up the next generation into using its products and not opt for open source.
> 

<http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/business/0,39023166,39151789,00.htm>
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 22:14:19 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:14:19 -0400
Subject: Excessive Uploading Found on DSL Line
In-Reply-To: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <44A05C3B.2040106@rogers.com>

Glen Strom wrote:
> I recently had a problem with my EOL DSL line. It turns out Bell had to
> adjust the error correction. When I talked to the EOL tech afterward,
> she said there was an excessive amount of uploading on my connection.
> Naturally, she suspected a virus or something like that until I told
> her I use Linux. Then she suggested that I might have a program on my
> system that's phoning home. So now I have two questions:
> 1. Is there program I can use to locate a chatty app on the system?
> 2. Is there another reason for this uploading activity?
> 
> Note that I haven't included any stats because I'm not sure what
> program to use to measure this uploading.
> 
> By the way, I used both chkrootkit and rkhunter to check for rootkits
> and found nothing amiss. I checked my firewall at ShieldsUp and it's
> still in stealth mode (however accurate/meaningful that is).

You can try Ethereal or TCP dump, to see what's happening.  However, I
suspect the tech didn't know what she's talking about.  Why would any
amount of traffic cause a DSL line failure?  Also I'd suspect she was
adjusting levels or similar, to reduce error rate, not adjusting error
correction.
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From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 26 22:43:30 2006
From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:43:30 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the	head!
In-Reply-To: <44A05BE4.10707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net> <1151324851.22741.145.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <449FF022.1040401@telly.org> <449FF28D.8010901@rogers.com> <44A05BE4.10707@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A06312.2080405@golden.net>

James Knott wrote:
> Kush wrote:
>   
>> This is corruption thru bribing. Only nobody says it that way. They call
>> it smart marketing.
>>
>> The same is the case with MS providing ( free with a hidden agenda)
>> software to educational institutions and libraries in Canada now to tie
>> up the next generation into using its products and not opt for open source.
>>
>>     
>
> <http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/business/0,39023166,39151789,00.htm>
>   
Yeah I have to admit there is very likely a hidden agenda however after 
doing the daily Grok, here is a link directly off the site.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Grants/default.htm

Approx 50 % for global health.  How much truth is there to the figures, 
I'm not sure.  Just another angle.  If PJ is posting it on her site 
there might be just a bit of truth to it.

Please don't get me wrong I am not in any way a Micro$oft supporter 
however I will give credit where credit is due.

John



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From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 02:52:17 2006
From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:52:17 -0400
Subject: Toronto & FOSS, where are we?
Message-ID: <200606262252.17802.marc@lijour.net>

Hi

just stumbled across this event which took place yesterday in Paris.
It looks like Paris has some ambition regarding promoting Free Software.

Is there something similar in Canada, or down South?

http://www.paris-libre.org/

ML
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 03:45:05 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:45:05 -0500
Subject: Excessive Uploading Found on DSL Line
In-Reply-To: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060626132804.91ae2cae.gstrom@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606262045ib34a34fh2468dc3e1081409b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Glen Strom <gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> she said there was an excessive amount of uploading on my connection.

Bittorrent?  =)
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 03:59:50 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:59:50 -0400
Subject: OT:  Bill Gates' piracy confession
Message-ID: <44A0AD36.3010206@pppoe.ca>

Freudian slip?

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/2803

Meng Cheah


 Bill Gates' piracy confession

By Robert L. Mitchell <http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/blog/28> on 
Tue, 06/20/2006 - 12:53pm

If you read way down to the bottom of a Wall Street Journal interview 
with Bill Gates that ran yesterday, you'll discover that the Microsoft 
executive admitted to watching pirated movies on the Internet. The 
confession came as he was talking about content he had viewed on 
YouTube. Here's part of the exchange:

   WSJ: You watch physics lectures and Harlem Globetrotters [on YouTube]?

   Gates: This social-networking thing takes you to crazy places.

   WSJ: But those were stolen, correct?

   Gates: Stolen's a strong word. It's copyrighted content that the
   owner wasn't paid for. So yes.

The Internet's biggest social failure has been that it has served as 
enabling technology for rampant cheating and theft - and the 
rationalization of it. The Internet makes stealing so easy that most 
people don't even think about it.

Bill Gates' comments would appear to be a case in point. You can hear 
the wheels turning as Gates thinks through the reality of his actions 
before finally admitting that he has indeed downloaded and consumed 
copyrighted content.

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 15:38:26 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:38:26 -0400
Subject: Base64 in Redhat9, SuSe10, ...
Message-ID: <20060627153826.GA4104@wp.magstar.net>

On Slackware, I have 'mimencode' (part of Metamail package) which does
Base64 encoding/decoding.  I looked into Redhat 9 and SuSE 10, and can't
find anything comparable.  How do you guys encode/decode base64?

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 15:40:57 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:40:57 -0400
Subject: Base64 in Redhat9, SuSe10, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060627153826.GA4104-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060627153826.GA4104@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <1151422857.22741.274.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 11:38 -0400, William Park wrote:

> On Slackware, I have 'mimencode' (part of Metamail package) which does
> Base64 encoding/decoding.  I looked into Redhat 9 and SuSE 10, and can't
> find anything comparable.  How do you guys encode/decode base64?



#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#
use MIME::Base64;

while (<>) {
        chomp;
        print decode_base64($_);
}


-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 15:48:56 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:48:56 -0400
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
Message-ID: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com>

A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.

I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running just fine.

I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.

I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * for 
the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for testing).

I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.

But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.

Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I must do?

Thanks
Stephen

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 15:58:53 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:53 +0000
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A15368.8010703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606270858x36975b59nec654af14a50a8f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>
> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running just fine.
>
> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>
> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * for
> the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for testing).
>
> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>
> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>
> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I must do?

Is it possible that there is some sort of firewall setting that is
denying remote access?

It would make a lot of sense for there to be a default setting
somewhere [possibly in "network world"] that rejects remote
connections; that represents a "secure by default" behaviour, which is
pretty preferable, as compared to having things wide open, ready for
Bad People to do Bad Things...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 16:06:59 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:06:59 -0400
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606270858x36975b59nec654af14a50a8f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com> <d6d6637f0606270858x36975b59nec654af14a50a8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A157A3.1080701@rogers.com>

Christopher Browne wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>>
>> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running 
>> just fine.
>>
>> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>>
>> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * for
>> the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for 
>> testing).
>>
>> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>>
>> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>>
>> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
>> must do?
>
> Is it possible that there is some sort of firewall setting that is
> denying remote access?
>
> It would make a lot of sense for there to be a default setting
> somewhere [possibly in "network world"] that rejects remote
> connections; that represents a "secure by default" behaviour, which is
> pretty preferable, as compared to having things wide open, ready for
> Bad People to do Bad Things...

I don't have a firewall on the Linux box. It lies behind the router 
which I rely on to keep bad things out.

And the error message suggests that the connection is being denied, as 
opposed to being blocked.

Thanks
Stephen

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From Cyang-xQC+QCJY5AZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 16:19:37 2006
From: Cyang-xQC+QCJY5AZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Charlie Yang)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
Message-ID: <96AD91D781CCD511A66000B0D0D15C490345FDE9@mail.infobal.com>

I'm not clear what you did, usually i do below steps:
1. log into mysql
	mysql -u root

2.	INSERT INTO user (Host,User,Password)    VALUES('%','root',(''));
	FLUSH PRIVILEGES;
	#comment:  '%' can chanage to ip like "192.168.1.5"




-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen [mailto:stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:07 PM
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: MySQL Help - Remote Access


Christopher Browne wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>>
>> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running 
>> just fine.
>>
>> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>>
>> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * for
>> the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for 
>> testing).
>>
>> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>>
>> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>>
>> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
>> must do?
>
> Is it possible that there is some sort of firewall setting that is
> denying remote access?
>
> It would make a lot of sense for there to be a default setting
> somewhere [possibly in "network world"] that rejects remote
> connections; that represents a "secure by default" behaviour, which is
> pretty preferable, as compared to having things wide open, ready for
> Bad People to do Bad Things...

I don't have a firewall on the Linux box. It lies behind the router 
which I rely on to keep bad things out.

And the error message suggests that the connection is being denied, as 
opposed to being blocked.

Thanks
Stephen

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 16:21:02 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:21:02 -0400
Subject: Base64 in Redhat9, SuSe10, ...
In-Reply-To: <1151422857.22741.274.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060627153826.GA4104@wp.magstar.net> <1151422857.22741.274.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <20060627162102.GA4256@wp.magstar.net>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 11:40:57AM -0400, John Van Ostrand wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 11:38 -0400, William Park wrote:
> 
> > On Slackware, I have 'mimencode' (part of Metamail package) which does
> > Base64 encoding/decoding.  I looked into Redhat 9 and SuSE 10, and can't
> > find anything comparable.  How do you guys encode/decode base64?
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> #
> #
> use MIME::Base64;
> 
> while (<>) {
>         chomp;
>         print decode_base64($_);
> }

Hey, that's cheating. :-)  Thanks.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 17:35:44 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:35:44 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
	head!
In-Reply-To: <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca> <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca> <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1151429744.5418.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

Supposedly Al Capone ran soup kitchens to feed the hungry. Its ironic
that these billionaires are sending so much money abroad while their own
country is collapsing from inclement weather and corruption. American
elite business goals are to push for global domination. Africa is the
next logical untapped resource. Where are people going to live...on the
moon?
RickT

On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 22:02 -0400, JoeHill wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:54:38 -0400
> Jamon Camisso got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
> 
> > There is such a thing as redemption in my mind,
> > and I honestly think it would be a great thing indeed (ironic even?) for
> > the Gates' and Buffet to spend the money they've extracted from people
> > and companies over the years on charitable projects that we would never
> > have donated to in the first place for wont of maintaining our petty
> > middle class comforts.
> > 
> > That being said, I wouldn't have discovered computers without said
> > middle-class status... so it goes. Regardless, we're here now, someone
> > is trying to make a difference in the world. That someone *can* affect
> > the quality of life of a large number of people to a considerable
> > degree. Let's not forget that is really my entire point.
> 
> To my mind, I can see both sides. It is, as you say, possible (I hope for my
> own sake!) to redeem oneself after past misdeeds.
> 
> What sticks in my craw is the point that Ted, if I understand correctly, was
> trying to make.
> 
> You are correct that computing in general is mostly a concern of the wealthier
> nations, and our 'petty middly class comforts'. Most people on the planet are
> concerned with their next meal more than what's on Slashdot ;-)
> 
> However, I would wager that, sans M$'s monopoly, computing, free software, and
> the benefits that result from connectivity, would *not* be limited to us in our
> comfy Western Middle Class abodes.
> 
> Organization is one very important key to prosperity, and were it not for Gates
> and others, I believe that computing technologies would have levelled the
> playing field somewhat between the 'haves' and 'have nots' (here comes William
> Park..."Commie!" LOL!)
> 
> In any case, history's been written, and Bill is trying, I guess to repay all
> the money he stole, but I don't think he should be getting medals for it,
> considering how he got it in the first place.
> 
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 17:42:07 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:42:07 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
	head!
In-Reply-To: <1151429744.5418.6.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca> <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca> <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	 <1151429744.5418.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <1151430127.22741.284.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 13:35 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:

> Supposedly Al Capone ran soup kitchens to feed the hungry. Its ironic
> that these billionaires are sending so much money abroad while their own
> country is collapsing from inclement weather and corruption. American
> elite business goals are to push for global domination. Africa is the
> next logical untapped resource. Where are people going to live...on the
> moon?
> RickT

Still the people in New Orleans, are far better off than the people in
many other parts of the world. It must be tough for those displaced by
Katrina, but they are not starving to death, or dying, in mass, of
preventable diseases.

I really don't like the idea of the BMG foundation "pushing" MSFT with
their contributions whether it's intentional or implied. Is it really an
honourable contribution if it increases one's own profitability? But at
least much of it is going to good causes.

-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 
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From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 18:27:22 2006
From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer)
Date: 27 Jun 2006 14:27:22 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the head!
In-Reply-To: <1151430127.22741.284.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	<449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>
	<20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net> <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca>
	<20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<1151429744.5418.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	<1151430127.22741.284.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <ltfyhqv4hh.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

John Van Ostrand <john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org> writes:

> I really don't like the idea of the BMG foundation "pushing" MSFT with
> their contributions whether it's intentional or implied. Is it really an
> honourable contribution if it increases one's own profitability? But at
> least much of it is going to good causes.

Even that isn't the full story. Bill Gates and Microsoft have been actively
promoting the WTO's TRIPS agreement which, if I understand it correctly,
seeks to promote American intellectual property "rights" around the world. As
a result, a large portion (80% or more) of the money donated to fight
diseases like AIDS in Africa will end up in the corporate coffers of the
large American (and multi-national) pharmaceutical companies which developed
the drugs.

On the one hand, Gates appears to be doing good work through his
foundation. On the other, he (through his company) is promoting international
trade policies which undermine a lot of that good work.

-- 
tim writer <tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>                                  starnix inc.
647.722.5301                                      toronto, ontario, canada
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 18:28:42 2006
From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer)
Date: 27 Jun 2006 14:28:42 -0400
Subject: Base64 in Redhat9, SuSe10, ...
In-Reply-To: <20060627162102.GA4256-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060627153826.GA4104@wp.magstar.net>
	<1151422857.22741.274.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
	<20060627162102.GA4256@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <ltbqsev4f9.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

IIRC, you can also do it with openssl.

William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> writes:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 11:40:57AM -0400, John Van Ostrand wrote:
> > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 11:38 -0400, William Park wrote:
> > 
> > > On Slackware, I have 'mimencode' (part of Metamail package) which does
> > > Base64 encoding/decoding.  I looked into Redhat 9 and SuSE 10, and can't
> > > find anything comparable.  How do you guys encode/decode base64?
> > 
> > #!/usr/bin/perl
> > #
> > #
> > use MIME::Base64;
> > 
> > while (<>) {
> >         chomp;
> >         print decode_base64($_);
> > }
> 
> Hey, that's cheating. :-)  Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
> ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
> 	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
> BashDiff: Super Bash shell
> 	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
> 

-- 
tim writer <tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>                                  starnix inc.
647.722.5301                                      toronto, ontario, canada
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 27 23:15:04 2006
From: frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:15:04 -0400
Subject: How to add a charset for Linux libxml2 and libiconv?
In-Reply-To: <ltfyhqv4hh.fsf-ESSLbfkwD4uye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>	<449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca>	<20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net> <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca>	<20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>	<1151429744.5418.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>	<1151430127.22741.284.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <ltfyhqv4hh.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <8C86856A8358410-8A4-198BA@mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com>

Hi,
 
I am working on a project to set up an Apache reverse proxy server. The server need to modify the web pages' content in order to make it work. It has to deal with different charsets and convert them sometimes. The libxml2 I got does not supporting GB2312 charset. Actually this is the same as EUC_CN. This charset is supported in libiconv. There is a little job needed to make an aliase GB2312 for EUC_CN and add a charset in libxml2 source then recompile it. Any one familiar with this please give a hand!
 
I would share the experience of Sequoia database cluster, Tomcat two-way SSL(Client Authentication) set up, Sequoia database SSL and Apache forward proxy server over SSL if any one needed. Please visit my multilanguage web site, https://breakevilaxis.org/mvnforum/mvnforum/index?lang=en
If you want French, you can change it on the fly:
https://breakevilaxis.org/mvnforum/mvnforum/index?lang=fr
....
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Frank Peng.
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 00:01:58 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:01:58 +0100
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A15368.8010703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A1C6F6.2010804@quadratic.net>

Stephen wrote:
> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>
> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running just 
> fine.
>
> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>
> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * 
> for the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for 
> testing).
>
> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>
> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>
> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
> must do?
>
> Thanks
> Stephen
>
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
Just to be sure...

You added the "grant" lines to the remote MySQL server right? not your 
local mysql instance?

Can you telnet to port 3306 from the client to the server?

Can you use the account you created on the server ( while local to the 
server )?

Are you refering to the remot mahcine by IP or by name? Star with IP 
address and then move to name resolution.

David
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 01:34:27 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:27 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] RE:MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <96AD91D781CCD511A66000B0D0D15C490345FDE9-5KQwm+K1IxyQ6ZAhV5LmOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <96AD91D781CCD511A66000B0D0D15C490345FDE9@mail.infobal.com>
Message-ID: <44A1DCA3.1010208@rogers.com>

Charlie Yang wrote:
> I'm not clear what you did, usually i do below steps:
> 1. log into mysql
> 	mysql -u root
>
> 2.	INSERT INTO user (Host,User,Password)    VALUES('%','root',(''));
> 	FLUSH PRIVILEGES;
> 	#comment:  '%' can chanage to ip like "192.168.1.5"
>   
I used grant instead of insert into, and this had am identical effect. 
The table 'user' was updated.

I am still stuck....

Stephen

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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 01:47:50 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:47:50 -0400
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A1C6F6.2010804-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com> <44A1C6F6.2010804@quadratic.net>
Message-ID: <44A1DFC6.6060706@rogers.com>

David Thornton wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>>
>> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running 
>> just fine.
>>
>> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>>
>> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * 
>> for the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and 
>> for testing).
>>
>> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>>
>> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>>
>> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
>> must do?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Stephen
>>
>> -- 
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
> Just to be sure...
>
> You added the "grant" lines to the remote MySQL server right? not your 
> local mysql instance?
>
> Can you telnet to port 3306 from the client to the server?
>
> Can you use the account you created on the server ( while local to the 
> server )?
>
> Are you refering to the remot mahcine by IP or by name? Star with IP 
> address and then move to name resolution.
>
I only have MySQL on the server. The local machine having the problem 
with connecting only has MySQL Administrator and MySQL Query Browser. 
Just client software.

I was using terminal on the server to execute the GRANT statements. I 
verified with select statements that the updates worked.

When I try to telnet from the client to the server on port 3306 I get 
the error "Host 192.168.2.100 is not allowed to connect to this MySQL 
server" which is the exact error I get when trying to connect using 
MySQL Administrator.

Any local server access I try works exactly as expected.

I try to connect to the server with MySQL by IP address.


This is getting frustrating. I have been through tons of docs and done 
dozens of googles.

The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.

I explicitly added a bind-address and port statement to my.cnf to no effect.


I tried to figure out the Red Hat boot initialization but is very far 
away from standard linux. So many rc.* files....

Can't give up though.
Stephen

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 02:08:07 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:08:07 -0700
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A1DFC6.6060706-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com> <44A1C6F6.2010804@quadratic.net>
	 <44A1DFC6.6060706@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606271908p7932e387y3197d903f4e8b3a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> When I try to telnet from the client to the server on port 3306 I get
> the error "Host 192.168.2.100 is not allowed to connect to this MySQL
> server" which is the exact error I get when trying to connect using
> MySQL Administrator.

Consider that good news.

You have ruled out a number of reasons why it might not be working;
you now know that you *don't* have to look at things like ipchains or
pf or such at the network transport layer.

> This is getting frustrating. I have been through tons of docs and done
> dozens of googles.
>
> The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.

e.g. - insecure by default.

> I explicitly added a bind-address and port statement to my.cnf to no effect.

> I tried to figure out the Red Hat boot initialization but is very far
> away from standard linux. So many rc.* files....

That is according to standard; it's the SysV UNIX "way," and most
flavours of Linux use such...

You shouldn't need to look much at them; the scripts in those
directories shouldn't need to be customized.

> Can't give up though.

Apparently more of a search of the docs is necessary...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 02:25:19 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:25:19 -0400
Subject: wish i had a clue stick to smack buffet upside the
	head!
In-Reply-To: <1151430127.22741.284.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060625190517.65d12e4f.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F1CF8.8020709@utoronto.ca> <20060625194640.62dfdd21.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <449F223E.70706@utoronto.ca> <20060625220209.76ac0d80.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	 <1151429744.5418.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151430127.22741.284.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <1151461519.4470.11.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

No one likes to see human suffering. The studies I've seen (60 Minutes,
the press...) indicate only a very small percentage of aid $$ ends up
benefiting the intended people. The bulk of aid $$ ends up buying posh
lifestyles for third world leaders and their underlings. I'm not that
optimistic about the 'one laptop per child' effort for this reason.
Better to educate people and let them develop their own 'tools' whether
software or hardware. Companies such as M$FT only has it's own interest
in mind from what I can see...resulting in perpetual ignorance and
reliance on one supplier for solutions. A bad combination for most
benefiting only a few. Gates is hiding behind 'charity' to create an
image. The reality is he and his cohorts are thieves pure and simple.
Nothing changes that fact unless they give back all the money they have
duped out of consumers.

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 13:42 -0400, John Van Ostrand wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 13:35 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: 
> > Supposedly Al Capone ran soup kitchens to feed the hungry. Its ironic
> > that these billionaires are sending so much money abroad while their own
> > country is collapsing from inclement weather and corruption. American
> > elite business goals are to push for global domination. Africa is the
> > next logical untapped resource. Where are people going to live...on the
> > moon?
> > RickT
> Still the people in New Orleans, are far better off than the people in
> many other parts of the world. It must be tough for those displaced by
> Katrina, but they are not starving to death, or dying, in mass, of
> preventable diseases.
> 
> I really don't like the idea of the BMG foundation "pushing" MSFT with
> their contributions whether it's intentional or implied. Is it really
> an honourable contribution if it increases one's own profitability?
> But at least much of it is going to good causes.
> 
> -- 
> John Van Ostrand
>         Net Direct Inc.
>  
> Chief Technology
> Officer
>   564 Weber St. N. Unit
>                      12
>   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
>  map 
> john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
>        Ph: 519-883-1172
>  ext.5102
> Linux Solutions / IBM
> Hardware
>        Fx: 519-883-8533
>  
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 02:38:21 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:38:21 -0400
Subject: Solved: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A15368.8010703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A1EB9D.30000@rogers.com>

The user table, hosts field wants a % and not a *

I paid my dues on this lesson.

lol

Stephen wrote:
> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>
> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running just 
> fine.
>
> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>
> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * 
> for the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for 
> testing).
>
> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>
> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>
> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
> must do?
>
> Thanks
> Stephen
>
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
>


--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 10:18:53 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:18:53 -0400
Subject: Only people with Media Player may be "People ready"
Message-ID: <1151489933.4469.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

Latest saturation brainwashing push from Redmond requires Media Player
to view marketing materials. Looks like the rest of the planet without
Media Player won't be "people ready". I guess we should all just stay in
bed and not bother attempting to make a living without Microsoft's help.
How did the world function without Gates and Ballmer in the past?
RickT


-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 11:25:42 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:25:42 -0400
Subject: Only people with Media Player may be "People ready"
In-Reply-To: <1151489933.4469.6.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151489933.4469.6.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606280425i42f8b6d1j1c1ed1b9fd55ba50@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Rick Tomaschuk <rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Latest saturation brainwashing push from Redmond requires Media Player
> to view marketing materials. Looks like the rest of the planet without
> Media Player won't be "people ready". I guess we should all just stay in
> bed and not bother attempting to make a living without Microsoft's help.
> How did the world function without Gates and Ballmer in the past?

What will all the Windows XPN users do?
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 11:53:28 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:53:28 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
Message-ID: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>

Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or 
investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and 
to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations 
or other governmental request."

Bell Sympatico's new customer service agreement, which took effect June 
15, is a clear signal the telecommunications industry expects the 
Conservative government to revive the surveillance law, said Michael 
Geist, an Internet law professor at the University of Ottawa.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060627.gtsecurity0627/BNStory/Technology/
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 12:30:18 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:30:18 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
Message-ID: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Here's an interesting rumour for us to consider.  First seen on the
Yahoo! Financial SCOX forum. 

[Microsoft(r) tech support] told me that "in the fall, having the latest
WGA will become mandatory and if its not installed, Windows will give a
30 day warning and when the 30 days is up and WGA isn't installed,
Windows will stop working, so you might as well install WGA now."  --
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84 Ed Bott's Blog

This could be a complete fabrication, a case of broken telephone, FUD, a
trial balloon from Redmond or something else.  But what if it is close
to being true?  Any way to confirm or refute this?  Anybody know anybody
at Microsoft(r) with the ability, the clout and the willingness to get a
real answer on this?  A written answer, with attribution?  Of course,
with enough public outcry, Microsoft(r) will simply change their mind on
this (if it's a trial balloon) and claim that the speakers were "wrong,
misinformed, spoke out of turn," and deny all complicity.  

But what if it is true?  

How will the Linux community help people effected by this unilateral
termination of computer services?  How about Installfests?  Can we be
prepared to host installfests for large numbers of disaffected
Microsoft(r) users?   How about an installfest every week?  


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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 12:37:24 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:37:24 -0700
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1151497818.10260.158.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606280537p602afa87p58971106c111f27e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Interlug <interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> How will the Linux community help people effected by this unilateral
> termination of computer services?  How about Installfests?  Can we be
> prepared to host installfests for large numbers of disaffected
> Microsoft(r) users?   How about an installfest every week?

If they're willing to pay for it, it could be an installfest every day.

Volunteer efforts are only likely to be enough to get things started,
and to get some exposure of those that should be getting paid for
their time...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 12:38:28 2006
From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:38:28 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
Message-ID: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I just put together this machine with the following components:

Asus T2-P barebone (Case, motherboard and 200W PSU)
Intel Celeron 350 3.2 GHz
Corsair 512 MB PC2700 DDR RAM
LiteOn DVD 16x dual-sided burner
eVGA GeForce MX4000 64MB AGP w/TVOut

I've double and triple checked the connections. When I plug it in the
motherboard power light comes on, but when I hit the power button
nothing happens. I rechecked all power connections but it all seems
fine.

What would my troubleshooting steps be at this point?

Thanks,
Aaron.
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From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 12:43:10 2006
From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:43:10 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1151497818.10260.158.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <44A2411E.2484.20B5241@pking123.sympatico.ca>



On 28 Jun 2006 at 8:30, Interlug spaketh these wourdes:

> Here's an interesting rumour for us to consider.  First seen on the
> Yahoo! Financial SCOX forum. 
> 

<interesting story snipped>

> 
> But what if it is true?  

I don't believe it. It makes for a great scare, but it essentially hands over 
control of that part of the user base to Linux. I don't feel that Redmond would 
ever want to hand over control like that. I would gladly turf windows if forced 
by WGA to do so, and I know they don't want anyone to. That would break the 
illusion they have created that Windoze is the only viable operating system 
going.

> 
> How will the Linux community help people effected by this unilateral
> termination of computer services?  How about Installfests?  Can we be
> prepared to host installfests for large numbers of disaffected
> Microsoft(r) users?   How about an installfest every week?  
> 

Also, think of all the tech support possibilities!

Paul


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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 12:46:50 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:46:50 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A27A3A.3020304@alteeve.com>

Aaron Vegh wrote:
> Hi all,
> I just put together this machine with the following components:
> 
> Asus T2-P barebone (Case, motherboard and 200W PSU)
> Intel Celeron 350 3.2 GHz
> Corsair 512 MB PC2700 DDR RAM
> LiteOn DVD 16x dual-sided burner
> eVGA GeForce MX4000 64MB AGP w/TVOut
> 
> I've double and triple checked the connections. When I plug it in the
> motherboard power light comes on, but when I hit the power button
> nothing happens. I rechecked all power connections but it all seems
> fine.
> 
> What would my troubleshooting steps be at this point?
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.

What happens if you unplug everything non-essential and try to POST? Ie: 
unplug all drives, use on-board video if it has it, and such? Will it 
POST then? If not, try putting the RAM in a different DIMM slot. If you 
have any parts around, try different RAM or a different video card if 
you don't have on-board video.

If you can get it to POST with minimal parts then it's just a matter of 
putting parts back until it dies again and you have your answer. If you 
just can't get it to POST, does the PSU fan spin up? If not, and if you 
are careful, unplug the PSU from everything except something like an old 
CD-ROM or disk drive (switched PSUs need a load to power up) and then 
short pin 13 to ground.

Pin 13 on the main PSU power cable (the 20 or 24pin mainboard plug) is 
usually the only green one and is usually a slightly smaller gauge then 
the rest. Any black wire is ground. If the PSU is okay and the load is 
sufficient the PSU should power on and you'll head the fan spin. If it 
still doesn't you probably have a toasted PSU. Obviously you do this 
test at your own risk! :p

If you have another system that you can try the RAM in see if it works 
there. If so, then you probably have a bad mobo or CPU but either way it 
sounds like it came as one unit so it should be easy to get an RMA 
(replacement) for it.

HTH

Madison
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From alain.maisonneuve_lists-QX23z+6opsUOxlH4FaG5hA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 13:05:34 2006
From: alain.maisonneuve_lists-QX23z+6opsUOxlH4FaG5hA at public.gmane.org (alain.maisonneuve_lists-QX23z+6opsUOxlH4FaG5hA at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:05:34 -0700
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1151497818.10260.158.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>

I believe that a once a month install fest is a fantastic idea. More 
often then
that would be a bit of over kill.. it would be a great learning 
opportunity for
eveyone.

I would volunteer to help do install for sure.


Quoting Interlug <interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org>:

> Here's an interesting rumour for us to consider.  First seen on the
> Yahoo! Financial SCOX forum.
>
> [Microsoft(r) tech support] told me that "in the fall, having the latest
> WGA will become mandatory and if its not installed, Windows will give a
> 30 day warning and when the 30 days is up and WGA isn't installed,
> Windows will stop working, so you might as well install WGA now."  --
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84 Ed Bott's Blog
>
> This could be a complete fabrication, a case of broken telephone, FUD, a
> trial balloon from Redmond or something else.  But what if it is close
> to being true?  Any way to confirm or refute this?  Anybody know anybody
> at Microsoft(r) with the ability, the clout and the willingness to get a
> real answer on this?  A written answer, with attribution?  Of course,
> with enough public outcry, Microsoft(r) will simply change their mind on
> this (if it's a trial balloon) and claim that the speakers were "wrong,
> misinformed, spoke out of turn," and deny all complicity.
>
> But what if it is true?
>
> How will the Linux community help people effected by this unilateral
> termination of computer services?  How about Installfests?  Can we be
> prepared to host installfests for large numbers of disaffected
> Microsoft(r) users?   How about an installfest every week?
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>



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From transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 13:36:29 2006
From: transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Ahmad)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:36:29 -0400
Subject: OT:  Member in Waterloo
Message-ID: <44A285DD.6050601@sympatico.ca>

There is a member who subscribes to this list who is in Waterloo.  His 
sig at the bottom of his posts has a web site I want to get to.  Could 
he reply with the url directly to my email my account thanks.  I 
normally keep all the tlug messages but a couple months back I deleted 
what I had.  Thanks.
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From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 13:44:52 2006
From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Interlug)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:44:52 -0400
Subject: OT:  Member in Waterloo
In-Reply-To: <44A285DD.6050601-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A285DD.6050601@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1151502292.10260.195.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 09:36 -0400, Ahmad wrote:
> There is a member who subscribes to this list who is in Waterloo.  His 
> sig at the bottom of his posts has a web site I want to get to.  Could 
> he reply with the url directly to my email my account thanks.  I 
> normally keep all the tlug messages but a couple months back I deleted 
> what I had.  Thanks.

Hard to know who you mean from this.  

I'm sure you can find it in the archives.
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/


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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 14:36:27 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:36:27 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 08:38:28AM -0400, Aaron Vegh wrote:
> I just put together this machine with the following components:
> 
> Asus T2-P barebone (Case, motherboard and 200W PSU)
> Intel Celeron 350 3.2 GHz
> Corsair 512 MB PC2700 DDR RAM
> LiteOn DVD 16x dual-sided burner
> eVGA GeForce MX4000 64MB AGP w/TVOut
> 
> I've double and triple checked the connections. When I plug it in the
> motherboard power light comes on, but when I hit the power button
> nothing happens. I rechecked all power connections but it all seems
> fine.
> 
> What would my troubleshooting steps be at this point?

So when you connect the power supply you get a light indicating standby
power is present, but when you press the power button nothing happens?

Is the power button connected to the right pins on the board?

Is the speaker connected to you can hear any potential beep codes?

Is the cpu fan connected to the right power connecter on the main board
(I have seen boards that refuse to power on if the cpu fan isn't present
and working).

Len Sorensen
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 14:48:56 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:48:56 +0000
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw-2RFepEojUI1BfbfP7qimxQ7GUfgVobmE@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, alain.maisonneuve_lists-QX23z+6opsUOxlH4FaG5hA at public.gmane.org
<alain.maisonneuve_lists-QX23z+6opsUOxlH4FaG5hA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I believe that a once a month install fest is a fantastic idea. More
> often then
> that would be a bit of over kill.. it would be a great learning
> opportunity for
> eveyone.
>
> I would volunteer to help do install for sure.

There's something strange about Toronto, or something.

The last installfest was last summer, and it attracted exactly zero
outsiders, despite what looked like pretty decent publicity.

Discussion suggested that the root of it is likely to be the issue of
transportation.  The GTA is a strange place, in that regard:
 - We have a large central section which has pretty good subway service.
 - As a result of that, there is a downright rabid group of members who
   don't even want to *hear* about things that aren't on the subway line.
   "Cars evil," and such like.  (I'm not saying everyone's like this, but there
   is a loud minority...)

But this is TOTALLY incompatible with the notion of an InstallFest,
which requires that a diverse group of non-Linux-fanatics find it
*easy* to transport their computers.  THAT mandates being in a place
where it's easy to get by car.

Frankly, that's somewhat incompatible with Toronto.  Toronto has no
central place that is easy to get to by car.  There are places that
are easy to get to by car; they are not central.  There are places
that are central; they are not "car-convenient."

There's probably better luck to be had in smaller cities where it's
easy to get anywhere by car.

Find a place that's central, around Toronto, that is quick to get to
by car, that offers free parking, and you've got the place where an
InstallFest may work.  Unfortunately, I suspect that to fit the bill,
you'll have to go to Waterloo...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 16:00:53 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:00:53 -0400
Subject: Installfests?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com> <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A2A7B5.3080102@telly.org>

Christopher Browne wrote:

> The last installfest was last summer, and it attracted exactly zero
> outsiders, despite what looked like pretty decent publicity.

Christopher makes some good points, but I think there's far more to the 
issue than transportation.

A decade ago, installfests were *really* necessary. Linux wasn't easy to 
install, a lot of care was needed to determine what kind of hardware 
would work and what wouldn't, and there weren't specialized 
distributions finely tuned for old or underpowered or oddball (ie. PS/2) 
systems.

The current situation is very different. Most install-time hardware 
available today is well supported by Linux and almost all of it is 
auto-detected. Distros such as Xandros, Linspire and PCLinuxOS cater to 
newcomers. Live CDs pioneered by Knoppix allow people to easily find out 
how well their system is supported *before* doing an install. The number 
of Linux books, articles has skyrocketed, even in the mainstream IT 
media. And there are better DIY sites and distributions for people using 
Linux to breathe new life into old hardware.

In other words, I would submit that utility of the installfest has 
peaked. There is still a need for it, but the need is far less than it 
used to be. At a technical level, Linux simply isn't as intimidating any 
more.

IMO this requires an examination of tactics -- if not the installfest 
(or the installfest alone), then what? I would suggest that newcomers to 
Linux need more than handholding at install time, indeed they need to be 
better armed before even deciding to install.

Consider an event that combines an installfest with:
- how to install your own linux system (what distros, how to test, etc)
- seminars on "how to choose a distribution" or "the truth about the GPL"
- introduction lessons on how to tackle tricky install issues such as 
partitions
- basic sessions on entry-level Linux admin (users, files, printers, 
backups)
- tips on how to integrate Linux into an existing Windows installation 
(Wine, Samba, etc)
- OpenOffice training
- information on the problem with DRM and most applications of "trusted 
computing"
(These are just examples, but you get the idea...)

Look at what's happening elsewhere. In Ottawa and Montr?al, there have 
been successful new-user events that have followed similar tracks -- not 
depending on a single attraction but having a series of events.

Our Qu?becois friends are planning an event, the Quebec Free Information 
Week (SQIL), the week of November 12-20, that has been successful in its 
last two years. I have been approached to see if there is interest in 
spreading the idea (of FOSS events that week) to other Canadian cities. 
(http://sqil.info/)

Perhaps GTALUG would like to consider doing something at the same time. 
So long at the location is reasonably accessible by car and transit, I 
suggest it doesn't have to be totally central. But I think location is 
secondary to content -- give people a reason to come before you even 
talk about how they'll get there.

- Evan

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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 16:18:57 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:18:57 -0400
Subject: Anyone here working within the Toronto District School Board?
In-Reply-To: <44A2A7B5.3080102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com> <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com> <44A2A7B5.3080102@telly.org>
Message-ID: <44A2ABF1.6090705@telly.org>

Hi all,

CLUE has received a somewhat disturbing whistle-blowing email regarding 
the TDSB's clamping down on the use of FOSS within its realm. If there 
is someone here who is working in or with the TDSB, please contact me 
privately.

- Evan

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From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:20:16 2006
From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:20:16 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <20060628143627.GA1444-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,
Thanks for the comments thus far...

Madison wrote:

What happens if you unplug everything non-essential and try to POST? Ie:
unplug all drives, use on-board video if it has it, and such? Will it
POST then? If not, try putting the RAM in a different DIMM slot. If you
have any parts around, try different RAM or a different video card if
you don't have on-board video.

There's no effect at all, no matter what I pull. I moved RAM to a
different slot, pulled the hard drive, optical drive, floppy drive and
video card. The standby power light on the mobo is on, but absolutely
nothing happens when you hit the power button.

I'd love to hear a little more about shorting the ground to test the
PSU. Do I need a wire to connect the mainboard power plug to
something?

Lennart wrote

> So when you connect the power supply you get a light indicating standby
> power is present, but when you press the power button nothing happens?
That's correct.

>
> Is the power button connected to the right pins on the board?
I checked that and it appears to be connected properly.
>
> Is the speaker connected to you can hear any potential beep codes?
I don't have speakers connected...do you think it woudl help? I mean,
nothing happens when you hit the power; I guess I'd expect the PSU and
CPU fans to start turning, if nothing else.
>
> Is the cpu fan connected to the right power connecter on the main board
> (I have seen boards that refuse to power on if the cpu fan isn't present
> and working).
I checked htat too, it seems to be in the right plug. I unplugged and
replugged everythign just to be sure. Same problem!

I guess my thought now is that at least one component here is
fracked...I just need to figure out which one.

Thanks for your help...

Aaron.
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From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:26:55 2006
From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:26:55 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32@mail.gmail.com>

Solved!

I noticed that the PSU had 230V as the supply, and being naive in
these things I left it as-is. But a quick look at a couple other
machines here confirmed that they were all using 115V! I flipped the
switch and there you go.

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Aaron.



On 6/28/06, Aaron Vegh <aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi there,
> Thanks for the comments thus far...
>
> Madison wrote:
>
> What happens if you unplug everything non-essential and try to POST? Ie:
> unplug all drives, use on-board video if it has it, and such? Will it
> POST then? If not, try putting the RAM in a different DIMM slot. If you
> have any parts around, try different RAM or a different video card if
> you don't have on-board video.
>
> There's no effect at all, no matter what I pull. I moved RAM to a
> different slot, pulled the hard drive, optical drive, floppy drive and
> video card. The standby power light on the mobo is on, but absolutely
> nothing happens when you hit the power button.
>
> I'd love to hear a little more about shorting the ground to test the
> PSU. Do I need a wire to connect the mainboard power plug to
> something?
>
> Lennart wrote
>
> > So when you connect the power supply you get a light indicating standby
> > power is present, but when you press the power button nothing happens?
> That's correct.
>
> >
> > Is the power button connected to the right pins on the board?
> I checked that and it appears to be connected properly.
> >
> > Is the speaker connected to you can hear any potential beep codes?
> I don't have speakers connected...do you think it woudl help? I mean,
> nothing happens when you hit the power; I guess I'd expect the PSU and
> CPU fans to start turning, if nothing else.
> >
> > Is the cpu fan connected to the right power connecter on the main board
> > (I have seen boards that refuse to power on if the cpu fan isn't present
> > and working).
> I checked htat too, it seems to be in the right plug. I unplugged and
> replugged everythign just to be sure. Same problem!
>
> I guess my thought now is that at least one component here is
> fracked...I just need to figure out which one.
>
> Thanks for your help...
>
> Aaron.
>
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:29:01 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:29:01 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>	 <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A2BC5D.9050603@alteeve.com>

Aaron Vegh wrote:
> I'd love to hear a little more about shorting the ground to test the
> PSU. Do I need a wire to connect the mainboard power plug to
> something?

Unplug the PSU from everything. Plug back in one high-load device (ie: 
an old hard drive), preferably one with no value "just in case". Now 
look at the biggest power connector and in the middle on one side you 
should see a single green wire. Take something conductive (wire, 
paperclip, etc) and short that green wire with any of the black wires. 
Now plug in/turn the back rocker-switch on and see if the hard drive and 
PSU fans spins up. If so, your PSU is okay. If not, it's toast.

Again, do this at your own risk. :) If you want pictures google for 
this. I can't find any off hand but I know that I have seen articles 
showing how to do this before.

Madison
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:30:24 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:30:24 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com>	 <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>	 <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A2BCB0.6020505@alteeve.com>

Aaron Vegh wrote:
> Solved!
> 
> I noticed that the PSU had 230V as the supply, and being naive in
> these things I left it as-is. But a quick look at a couple other
> machines here confirmed that they were all using 115V! I flipped the
> switch and there you go.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Cheers,
> Aaron.

Be glad you aren't in the UK and it was the other way around. :p This is 
also why I really like Active PFC :p

Madison
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:41:23 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:41:23 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Frankly, that's somewhat incompatible with Toronto.  Toronto has no
> central place that is easy to get to by car.  There are places that
> are easy to get to by car; they are not central.  There are places
> that are central; they are not "car-convenient."

How about North York Central Library?  I'm not saying they'd give us
the space, but easy by car and by transit.

Having lived in a small town for a long time recently, I have to agree
that small towns are a lot better for installfests.

I'd be happy to help out if someone sets up an installfest.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 17:45:21 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:45:21 +0000
Subject: Installfests?
In-Reply-To: <44A2A7B5.3080102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44A2A7B5.3080102@telly.org>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606281045r7a1f5a78kedcb2fd1c7d89f24@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> > The last installfest was last summer, and it attracted exactly zero
> > outsiders, despite what looked like pretty decent publicity.
>
> Christopher makes some good points, but I think there's far more to the
> issue than transportation.
>
> A decade ago, installfests were *really* necessary. Linux wasn't easy to
> install, a lot of care was needed to determine what kind of hardware
> would work and what wouldn't, and there weren't specialized
> distributions finely tuned for old or underpowered or oddball (ie. PS/2)
> systems.

I seem to recall that the InstallFest attempt last year primarily
"peaked" with an attempt to put Linux onto a pretty baroque system.
And I agree, that's not of widespread interest.

> The current situation is very different. Most install-time hardware
> available today is well supported by Linux and almost all of it is
> auto-detected. Distros such as Xandros, Linspire and PCLinuxOS cater to
> newcomers. Live CDs pioneered by Knoppix allow people to easily find out
> how well their system is supported *before* doing an install. The number
> of Linux books, articles has skyrocketed, even in the mainstream IT
> media. And there are better DIY sites and distributions for people using
> Linux to breathe new life into old hardware.

We just got a bunch of Lenovo Thinkpads last week, at work; several of
us shared a single Ubuntu disk that gave us pretty much the
functionality we wanted out of the box.

(Alas, the state of the "Linux art" does not include decent support
for wireless with WPA + certificates...)

It's worth noting that this took about 10 minutes, and involved about
1/10 the questions that used to get asked the first time I installed
Debian.  There was nothing to agonize over; nothing that required that
I know obscure nooks and crannies of Unix to understand the issue.

I'm fairly well certain that installing Windows would be *way* more difficult...

> In other words, I would submit that utility of the installfest has
> peaked. There is still a need for it, but the need is far less than it
> used to be. At a technical level, Linux simply isn't as intimidating any
> more.

Hmm.  Disagree.  Linux is more complex than it ever was.

The difference is that there are distribution makers that have
diminished the sophistication of the configuration questions that they
ask.

- They *don't* ask you if you want to install via more or less obscure
means that require strange pre-configuration

- They don't ask you to decide how to partition disks; they make choices for you

- They don't ask you what software to install; they choose a large set
of packages for you

- They don't ask you to understand .xinitrc; they set up a lot of
defaults for you

> IMO this requires an examination of tactics -- if not the installfest
> (or the installfest alone), then what? I would suggest that newcomers to
> Linux need more than handholding at install time, indeed they need to be
> better armed before even deciding to install.
>
> Consider an event that combines an installfest with:
> - how to install your own linux system (what distros, how to test, etc)
> - seminars on "how to choose a distribution" or "the truth about the GPL"
> - introduction lessons on how to tackle tricky install issues such as
> partitions
> - basic sessions on entry-level Linux admin (users, files, printers,
> backups)
> - tips on how to integrate Linux into an existing Windows installation
> (Wine, Samba, etc)
> - OpenOffice training
> - information on the problem with DRM and most applications of "trusted
> computing"
> (These are just examples, but you get the idea...)

Yeah, in effect, speakers on various things that aren't particularly
about Linux or that are very "soft" matters.

> Look at what's happening elsewhere. In Ottawa and Montr?al, there have
> been successful new-user events that have followed similar tracks -- not
> depending on a single attraction but having a series of events.
>
> Our Qu?becois friends are planning an event, the Quebec Free Information
> Week (SQIL), the week of November 12-20, that has been successful in its
> last two years. I have been approached to see if there is interest in
> spreading the idea (of FOSS events that week) to other Canadian cities.
> (http://sqil.info/)
>
> Perhaps GTALUG would like to consider doing something at the same time.
> So long at the location is reasonably accessible by car and transit, I
> suggest it doesn't have to be totally central. But I think location is
> secondary to content -- give people a reason to come before you even
> talk about how they'll get there.

There are worse ideas to be had.

SQIL seems to exclude non-Quebec activities, which isn't exactly the
most inclusive way to go.

There's merit to doing something like that, though.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 18:10:13 2006
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:10:13 -0400
Subject: Installfests?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606281045r7a1f5a78kedcb2fd1c7d89f24-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>	 <44A2A7B5.3080102@telly.org> <d6d6637f0606281045r7a1f5a78kedcb2fd1c7d89f24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A2C605.10207@telly.org>

Christopher Browne wrote:

>> At a technical level, Linux simply isn't as intimidating any
>> more.
>
>
> Hmm.  Disagree.  Linux is more complex than it ever was.

Complex != intimidating. We're both right.

> The difference is that there are distribution makers that have
> diminished the sophistication of the configuration questions that they
> ask.
>
> - They *don't* ask you if you want to install via more or less obscure
> means that require strange pre-configuration
>
> - They don't ask you to decide how to partition disks; they make 
> choices for you
>
> - They don't ask you what software to install; they choose a large set
> of packages for you
>
> - They don't ask you to understand .xinitrc; they set up a lot of
> defaults for you

All true. And in many cases, the pre-configured defaults suit many 
people. Thus exists the benefit of a series of sessions for people (who 
want to know) to learn what is going on under the hood. Not everyone who 
drives wants to know how to change their oil, but at least they need to 
know it has to be done.

The reality is that many of the target audience for such an event don't 
want to know about a file called ".xinitrc", let alone how to change it. 
They _celebrate_ the hiding of such details. (Heaven knows they're used 
to Windows hiding all those details from them too.)

The end result is that Linux can be _both_ more complex and less 
intimdating to install. Those who want a lot of pre-set defaults have 
their distros, those who want fine control and for everything compiled 
on the fly can get that too. People who are interested in getting more 
complex after a simple start can do so over time. Those who don't like 
the existing choices of pre-defined install settings can roll their own 
derivative distros.

My point remains that new distros and new hardware don't require 
installfests as much as they used to.

> Yeah, in effect, speakers on various things that aren't particularly
> about Linux or that are very "soft" matters.

Well, yes. Hardcore devotees know where to get _their_ fix.

> SQIL seems to exclude non-Quebec activities, which isn't exactly the
> most inclusive way to go.

Well, by definition it is "la semaine Qu?becoise"... :-)

I will note that it was the SQIL folks who came to us (CLUE) first to 
ask if there might be interest in extending the concept nationally. So 
clearly they're thinking of a series of co-ordinated events, though 
their own resources limit them to local planning. I don't think it'll 
bother them if GTALUG plans exclude non-Toronto events.

I also note that osw.ca is used by OCLUG for its Open Source Weekend 
events, and could be persuaded to let it be used for a national Open 
Source Week.

- Evan

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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 18:15:57 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Installfests?
In-Reply-To: <44A2A7B5.3080102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
 <44A2A7B5.3080102@telly.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606281334520.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

At the risk of this sounding like a "me too" post...

> In other words, I would submit that utility of the installfest has peaked. 
> There is still a need for it, but the need is far less than it used to be. At

I agree.  These days installfests are more about hand holding than 
defeating mighty installation problems.  Of course given that many of the 
boxes will have MS-Win installed already care needs to be taken to retain 
data (evening after considering a solid lawyer-written disclaimer).

> a technical level, Linux simply isn't as intimidating any more.

As far as the installation goes, agreed.  It's a much more complex beast 
than it used to be but users do get the opprotunity to ignore much of that 
complexity if they want to.

> IMO this requires an examination of tactics -- if not the installfest (or the 
> installfest alone), then what? I would suggest that newcomers to Linux need 
> more than handholding at install time, indeed they need to be better armed 
> before even deciding to install.

I'm a great believer in informed choice.  I never tell anyone that Linux 
is something they must use or that they'll like it more than what they are 
using now.  I suggest they consider their options and remain open to the 
possiblity that Linux could be very beneficial to their use of a computer.

I also strongly encourage people to consider what open standards mean for 
freedom and the future but that's another topic.

> Our Qu?becois friends are planning an event, the Quebec Free Information Week 
> (SQIL), the week of November 12-20, that has been successful in its last two

Nov 11-19 according to the page.  Perhaps QC is across the international 
dateline ;)

Based on new user talks I've done in the past it seems alot of people 
don't know what apps are out there in FOSS land and they would like to see 
them in action.

Open Office
firefox
GIMP
Other apps that are more eye catching on the big screen.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.

From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 18:28:52 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:28:52 -0400
Subject: pptp
Message-ID: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Has anyone any experience connecting
to MS VPNs over PPTP?  I'm particularly
interested in knowing what options
in /etc/ppp/options.pptp correspond
to what choices in the network setup
wizard in Windows (I have the connection
working in Windows, so if I just knew
what those things correspond to, I should
be able to set it up from Linux (debian stable).)

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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 19:01:38 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:01:38 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A26DB8.1050801-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Meng Cheah <meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or
> investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and
> to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations
> or other governmental request."

This can't be good.

Also when this kind of thing happens, couldn't it end up happening
that they could monitor your Internet usage for other reasons (not
listed) too?

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060627.gtsecurity0627/BNStory/Technology/

Meng, why not paste the whole article like they do on Usenet, so that
people can comment on the article to the list? :)

Regards,
Jason
--
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 19:15:11 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:15:11 -0400
Subject: Wireless; Vista; etc. (was: Installfests?)
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281215t2008e797y55589b9c7975d0c0@mail.gmail.com>

Email sent to Toronto LUG list. CC'ed debian-laptop list because of
relevant questions about wireless.

On 6/28/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne at gmail.com> wrote:
> (Alas, the state of the "Linux art" does not include decent support
> for wireless with WPA + certificates...)
Or decent support for certain wireless chipsets at all, it seems. :-(

Has it ever happened before that someone tried to come up with a
"Linux Certified" logo, trademark it, and convince certain Wi-Fi
vendors to put it on the outside of their packaging?

If not, someone should. (OSDL? Debian? Ubuntu? Red Hat? IBM?)

> I'm fairly well certain that installing Windows would be *way* more difficult...

Yes, but perhaps that's only because of drivers. Windows XP is six
years old, and it's almost guaranteed that on a modern computer you'll
have hardware whose drivers aren't on the Windows XP CD. I have a
feeling the problem will go away for a few years again when Vista
comes out and includes drivers for everything.

> On 6/28/06, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > In other words, I would submit that utility of the installfest has
> > peaked. There is still a need for it, but the need is far less than it
> > used to be. At a technical level, Linux simply isn't as intimidating any
> > more.
>
> Hmm.  Disagree.  Linux is more complex than it ever was.
>
> The difference is that there are distribution makers that have
> diminished the sophistication of the configuration questions that they
> ask.
Precisely, and bravo to those vendors for doing so.

Please CC me,
Jason

-- 
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I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 19:23:57 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:23:57 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
	 <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1151522637.4639.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

I understand it's part of that 'freedom' thing we keep hearing about.
The freedom to do as you are told by Mayflower babies, Dukes, Earls, and
so on ... ;). But seriously if you have nothing to hide...at some levels
who cares. Just don't outline ALL your business secrets online.

RickT
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca

For the big words see 'dictionary.com'

On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 15:01 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Meng Cheah <meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or
> > investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and
> > to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations
> > or other governmental request."
> 
> This can't be good.
> 
> Also when this kind of thing happens, couldn't it end up happening
> that they could monitor your Internet usage for other reasons (not
> listed) too?
> 
> > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060627.gtsecurity0627/BNStory/Technology/
> 
> Meng, why not paste the whole article like they do on Usenet, so that
> people can comment on the article to the list? :)
> 
> Regards,
> Jason
> --
> Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
> I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
> Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
> jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
-- 



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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 19:26:03 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:26:03 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> How about North York Central Library?
Sounds fine to me, I live in North York.

> I'm not saying they'd give us
> the space, but easy by car and by transit.
I called their room booking line at 416 397 5969. They do not give
away, but only rent out rooms: a "small" boardroom is $15/hr, and a
"large" boardroom is $35/hr. There's Fairview Mall (which has free
parking), North York Central,  and more. None have Wi-Fi or Ethernet
yet.

Also, how about York University? Maybe someone there can find us a space there?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 19:42:24 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:42:24 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
Message-ID: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

Some sort of developer environment/show (like Google summer of code) may
be preferable to a simple Installfest. People need to see how to develop
applications for Linux from sketch to debugged product. Window$
advocates keep harping on how Linux does'nt have the 'developer model'
like what the world's greediest men from Redmond developed. A push to
promote multiple developer environments to quickly churn out
applications will turn some heads.
RickT
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 20:00:13 2006
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:00:13 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Also, how about York University? Maybe someone there can find us a space there?

While York is great if you have a car (so long as it's not rush hour!)
it fails the previously mentioned test for ease of use by other means
of transportation.  It's a very difficult target by bike, and a royal
pain by transit.  I went to a NewTLUG meeting there recently and it
took me about 1 hour and 40 minutes to get there (I live near the
Danforth, out east) despite having a bus line all its own.  For a
most-of-the-day installfest I guess I'd make the trek, but NewTLUG
will have to put on a pretty spectacular show to draw me when the
transit time exceeds the meeting duration (sorry guys - I want to
attend!).

Campuses are good, if the LUG has people (students, faculty, staff,
doesn't matter) on that campus: pretty much anyone can book some kind
of space if they're affiliated with the institution.  And you're
almost guaranteed free internet access.  Do we have a connection with
a car- and transit-friendly campus in town?  I'm not sure U of T
qualifies either: very transit- and bike-friendly, horrible for cars.
Although it's better on weekends.

Better at tossing out questions than answers ...
--  Giles
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 20:01:27 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:01:27 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <1151522637.4639.7.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>	 <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a@mail.gmail.com> <1151522637.4639.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <44A2E017.2000203@pppoe.ca>

Rick Tomaschuk wrote:

>I understand it's part of that 'freedom' thing we keep hearing about.
>The freedom to do as you are told by Mayflower babies, Dukes, Earls, and
>so on ... ;). But seriously if you have nothing to hide...at some levels
>who cares. Just don't outline ALL your business secrets online.
>
>RickT
>http://www.TorontoNUI.ca
>
>For the big words see 'dictionary.com'
>
>  
>
It's not that you have something to hide :-)
but to have control of access to your own information, among other things.

This, like most issues, is not black and white and I have no answers :-)

Take Psiphon for example. Psiphon is part of the CiviSec Project run by 
the Citizen Lab at the Munk Centre for International Studies at the 
University of Toronto. The CiviSec Project is funded by the Open Society 
Institute.

 From http://psiphon.civisec.org/
*What is Psiphon?*
Psiphon is a censorship circumvention solution allowing users to access 
blocked sites in countries where the Internet is censored. Psiphon turns 
a regular home computer into a personal, encrypted server capable of 
retrieving and displaying web pages anywhere.

*Who will use Psiphon?*
Psiphon operates through networks of trust. There are Psiphon providers, 
who install and run the server in an uncensored country and Psiphon 
users who login and access the server from a country that censors the 
Internet.


Can't this be also used by pedophiles among others?
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 20:02:54 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:02:54 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A2E06E.8020607@pppoe.ca>

Jason Spiro wrote:

>> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060627.gtsecurity0627/BNStory/Technology/ 
>>
>
>
> Meng, why not paste the whole article like they do on Usenet, so that
> people can comment on the article to the list? :)
>

I'm already off-topic :-)
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:07:10 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:07:10 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <1151523744.4639.17.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 15:42 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> Some sort of developer environment/show (like Google summer of code) may
> be preferable to a simple Installfest. People need to see how to develop
> applications for Linux from sketch to debugged product. Window$
> advocates keep harping on how Linux does'nt have the 'developer model'
> like what the world's greediest men from Redmond developed. A push to
> promote multiple developer environments to quickly churn out
> applications will turn some heads.
> RickT

PegaSoft has its annual Summer Programming Challenge and Linux Summer
Retreat in August.  However, my experience is that developers are
interested unless there's a big wad of cash involved.

Ken B.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:09:23 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:09:23 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281409l1ca07627j6d15e27f00c682a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
[advice and questions snipped]
> Better at tossing out questions than answers ...

But you provided useful advice, too.

Also, sometimes, especially in research, asking good questions is just
as important as finding the answers. :-)
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:15:34 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:15:34 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A2E06E.8020607-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
	 <c241693f0606281201v624a44f7p965edc4fe940943a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44A2E06E.8020607@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281415v47de6033y9a0897e12eced43e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Meng Cheah <meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Jason Spiro wrote:
> > Meng, why not paste the whole article like they do on Usenet, so that
> > people can comment on the article to the list? :)
>
> I'm already off-topic :-)
>
Aren't things like security, privacy, software patents, Windows Vista,
etc. basically on-topic despite the charter? :-)

BTW, how will Psiphon be better than Tor, the free onion routing
service run by volunteer sysadmins and others?

Jason
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:23:08 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:23:08 -0400
Subject: OT: Member in Waterloo
In-Reply-To: <1151502292.10260.195.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A285DD.6050601@sympatico.ca>
	 <1151502292.10260.195.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281423l1d7b016chf80fc813d7dd4963@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Interlug <interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
[snip]
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/

Is there a way to get the gmane people to rename this to gtalug or
gmane.org.user-groups.linux.ontario.tlug or something?
(gmane.org.user-groups.tlug is the Taiwan Linux User Group.) I had no
idea gmane covered TLUG until I read your message.

Gmane's hierarchy people have generally done a superb job of
categorizing mailing lists into a tree, but they must have had a
harder time with user groups. The categories there are more of a mess.
:)

By the way, does anyone know: is it possible to do a full-text search
through all of gmane's archives?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:32:17 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:32:17 +0000
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <1151528830.5626.1.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 15:42 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> > Some sort of developer environment/show (like Google summer of code) may
> > be preferable to a simple Installfest. People need to see how to develop
> > applications for Linux from sketch to debugged product. Window$
> > advocates keep harping on how Linux does'nt have the 'developer model'
> > like what the world's greediest men from Redmond developed. A push to
> > promote multiple developer environments to quickly churn out
> > applications will turn some heads.
> > RickT
>
> PegaSoft has its annual Summer Programming Challenge and Linux Summer
> Retreat in August.  However, my experience is that developers are
> interested unless there's a big wad of cash involved.

I don't see there being any value in trying to do the "stunt" of
having a LUG arrange something like this.  This isn't the sort of
activity that leverages the Strength of Geographical Community that
LUGs hold.

There's too much diversity of interests and too little specificity of
competence in such contexts.

It is something that does, instead, frequently occur when groups
associated with particular OSS projects get together.

For instance, July 10-12th, there will be a PostgreSQL "Code Sprint"
in Toronto as most of the core developers will be in Toronto in one
spot.

There have frequently been similar groupings at conferences:
 - X11 work at various technical conferences over the years when a
bunch of X-heads have been present
 - OLS tends to be preceded by this sort of activity for Linux kernel developers
 - The days before BSDCAN involved meetings of the BSD core folk together

In each of those cases, that's playing to the strength of the respective group.

When I was in Texas, there were several proposals for "coding stunts"
that would always fall through because making up a project for the
purposes of the stunt turned out to not attract anyone...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:33:27 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:33:27 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <200606221627.03025.ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281433vfd04e8ao792559a98a3d7f6c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> In reality the SIMPL API is really just 5 main functions:
>
> name_attach() - to register a process name
> name_locate() - to open a communication channel to a process found by
> name
> Send() - throw off a message and wait for a response
> Reply() - respond to a message
> Receive() - wait for a message to be thrown your way

Isn't this similar to the use of TCP sockets or Unix named sockets?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Contact me anytime for a FREE 5-minute consultation.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:39:35 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:39:35 -0400
Subject: Insecurity by default (was: MySQL Help)
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.
>
> e.g. - insecure by default.

I hate "insecure by default" products. It's led to so many PHP
injection attacks internet wide you wouldn't believe it, including PHP
bulletin board software worms that attack server machines.

How can "insecurity by default" be discouraged, though? Boycott such products???

Jason

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:43:27 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0000
Subject: Insecurity by default (was: MySQL Help)
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606281443m4a98085dq7b4499c72acb36f0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On 6/27/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.
> >
> > e.g. - insecure by default.
>
> I hate "insecure by default" products. It's led to so many PHP
> injection attacks internet wide you wouldn't believe it, including PHP
> bulletin board software worms that attack server machines.
>
> How can "insecurity by default" be discouraged, though? Boycott such products???

I'd be dumb to argue with that ;-).

Others might beg to differ...
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:48:39 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:48:39 -0400
Subject: defectivebydesign anti-drm phone campaign
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP10918F8B4B22C01E86A5F8B27A0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP10918F8B4B22C01E86A5F8B27A0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606281448p5ff85839w52f5951cc6c9c8b2@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/06, Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> A little OT, but very much related to us Linux users:
> http://www.defectivebydesign has been doing a phone campaign
A phone campaign? Brilliant! :-)

But is there only one number in Toronto people can call?'

Regards,
Jason
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 21:57:52 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:57:52 +0000
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281433vfd04e8ao792559a98a3d7f6c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200606221627.03025.ican@netrover.com>
	 <c241693f0606281433vfd04e8ao792559a98a3d7f6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606281457g68b20bdex22ccaab09b1e6fea@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/22/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> > In reality the SIMPL API is really just 5 main functions:
> >
> > name_attach() - to register a process name
> > name_locate() - to open a communication channel to a process found by
> > name
> > Send() - throw off a message and wait for a response
> > Reply() - respond to a message
> > Receive() - wait for a message to be thrown your way
>
> Isn't this similar to the use of TCP sockets or Unix named sockets?

Sure, it's *similar*.

But that's only true in the bland sense that "everything on Unix
involves manipulating files."  Which may at some level be true, but if
you're trying to reverse engineer someone's binary data format, it may
include a whole lot of cursing...

By layering the API on top, you don't need, as a programmer, to pay
attention to the details of how messages go back and forth.  It's easy
to work with messages; they look nice and atomic, as opposed to
figuring out how many bytes to read from a socket.

The docs for Isect outline this nicely...
http://isectd.sourceforge.net/isect_1.html#SEC1

---------------------------------------------
Long before the buzzwords "client-server" and "middleware" were ever
coined, programmers used middleware to build client-server systems.
They programmed using character or block IO directly to the network
devices which may have been proprietary, like Data General's MCA
cards, or standard like UARTs for serial communications.

Over TCP/IP networks, regardless whether the network interface is
token-ring, ethernet, or PPP, the socket library developed at the
University of Berkeley became the standard way for programs running on
different computers (or even the same computer) to communicate with
each other.

But writing servers is more complicated than just read()ing requests
from a client. What if there are multiple clients? What if the client
dies while you're still processing? What if the server dies? How does
the client find the server? Should or must the server be multitasking?
How should semaphores be used? These issues all concern network
programming and have little (read: nothing) to do with what the
programmer really needs the server to do. In fact, for simple server
programs the overhead of the network programming may make it not worth
it to create the server in the first place.
---------------------------------------------
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 22:04:18 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:04:18 +0100
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <E32DCA9D-C67E-4277-8891-059B8991C456-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com> <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain> <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10@visibleassets.com> <4499C876.3040904@quadratic.net> <E32DCA9D-C67E-4277-8891-059B8991C456@visibleassets.com>
Message-ID: <44A2FCE2.3090003@quadratic.net>

<top post>

Update please!

how are you getting on? Jury rig? Duct tape?
Bash script?
COTS Solution?

David

Dave Cramer wrote:
> That's pieces of it, yes. I've been trying to build mod_tsa with 
> little luck
>
> with a gps receiver and mod_tsa and a real cert that's all that is 
> required.
>
> At this point the hardware may be cheaper than my time. There's also a 
> requirement for storing keys on a secure physical medium.
>
> Dave
> On 21-Jun-06, at 6:30 PM, David Thornton wrote:
>
>> what about a ntp server connected to a gps unit?
>>
>> Would that do the job?
>>
>> David
>>
>> Dave Cramer wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> Thanks, actually I"m looking for something a little more integrated. 
>>> I've seen the Dallas stuff.
>>>
>>> What I"m looking for is referred to as a host security module.
>>>
>>> The end result is I want to create a Timestamp Authority. I've tried 
>>> mod_tsa, but I get errors using the module.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> On 21-Jun-06, at 9:43 AM, Interlug wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>>> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I
>>>>> can't remember the name ?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but I've
>>>> always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.
>>>>
>>>> Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.
>>>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910
>>>>
>>>>

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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 22:31:37 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:31:37 -0500
Subject: [TRUG]Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281411y7347ceaen6f15abdb5870fcda-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <c241693f0606281411y7347ceaen6f15abdb5870fcda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606281531u6f820830ged4feb4260d1267f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Didn't the Toronto Ruby Users Group do a hacking night once?
>
> TRUG people: How did it go? I wasn't there. (Please CC tlug at ss.org.)

It went well, but needed more planning beforehand so as to get
everyone productive sooner.  If we had a few more hours (and the will
to use them) we would definitely have used them productively.

We only had a couple of Ruby-capable people, the rest were there to
see what it was like and to get a good paired programming experience.

Everyone walked away with questions answered and a head full of ideas.
 Some of us continued a bit of work, but without cohesive leadership I
don't see how the project could ever come to a conclusion (a capable
ruby-native tar/etc library)

I fear this is like the rest of all hobbyist-created software, where
the main drive is self-motivation.  Self-motivation which is often
based on individual needs and other "difficult to herd" traits.


So when it comes to developerfests, installfests, hackathons and the
like.. the question to keep asking to the people you want to heard is:
 "Why should they care?" .. for the greater Good isn't usually good
enough.  From boredom.. that's not going to get you far.  For ego..
maybe.  For the excitement and learning, yes that's on the right
track.

So to herd the cats one must engage them either by solving their
problems or enticing their curiosity.

Would I be interested in an installfest?  No, because my distribution
is best.  I already know how to install it, so why would I care to see
someone else do it.  Why would I care to help someone else install it,
it's easy to install.. it's not my problem.. I don't know them.. I
have better things to do.. etc..

Similar issues exist when combining developers.. if they're working on
a common goal.. something of interest, then combining them is easy.
If the reason for their combination can't be found and maintained,
then like all the 0.5-beta releases out there, it will only half work,
at best.  Unless someone else appears out of thin air to take over the
project.  That seems to be the reasoning behind most projects.. they
solve a problem for themselves, and totally ignore general usage and
good usability, and will tell others to continue/fix/update the
software themselves, since that was their own motivation.


ok, ranting now..
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 23:08:08 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:08:08 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <44A2FA79.1080401-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A2FA79.1080401@mastcommunications.ca>
Message-ID: <20060628190808.ejqh4hquw44kk88o@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Whoops, I meant to send this to the list

Quoting Marc Evelyn <marc-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN at public.gmane.org>:

>> Has anyone any experience connecting
>> to MS VPNs over PPTP?  I'm particularly
>> interested in knowing what options
>> in /etc/ppp/options.pptp correspond
>> to what choices in the network setup
>> wizard in Windows (I have the connection
>> working in Windows, so if I just knew
>> what those things correspond to, I should
>> be able to set it up from Linux (debian stable).)
>
> I have it working with Ubuntu (Breezy & Dapper) and a colleague has 
> it working
> with Gentoo.
>
> We both used the instructions found at the pptpclient.sourceforge.net 
> site. The
> Debian-specific page is here:
>
> http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/howto-debian.phtml

Thanks; I'd already found that page.  The problem is
it has all these instructions about doing one thing if
the Moon is in the seventh house and something else
if you draw a royal fizbin, and I don't know which are
the appropriate choices.  That's why I was hoping someone
could provide a map between these options and the Windows
terminology for them.
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 23:09:53 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:09:53 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <44A302BB.30008-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A2FA79.1080401@mastcommunications.ca>
	<20060628175621.510j5dfxmogg40ck@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<44A302BB.30008@mastcommunications.ca>
Message-ID: <20060628190953.b5nn86dwqogc8w8c@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Meant to send this to the list, too.

Quoting Marc Evelyn <marc-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN at public.gmane.org>:

> "man pptp" and "man pppd" will describe all of the options.
>
> My pptp.options file  is the same as in Step 2. on the aforementioned 
> page (or
> the Ubuntu version of it); chaps.secrets is identical to what's found 
> in Step 3;
> and my "tunnel" file is identical to what's found in Step 4.
>
> What specific Windows terminology was of interest?

Once you've set up a networking connection for VPN in Windows,
if you go to the Networking tab, highlight TCP/IP, and choose
"Properties", and then "Advanced", there's a checkbox on the
"General" tab that says "Use default gateway on remote network".
I need to know what option corresponds to (un)checking that box.

If you then choose the DNS tab on the same dialog box, I need
to know what corresponds to the radio button saying "Append
primary and connection specific DNS suffixes", the text box
for "DNS suffix for this connection", and the checkboxes
that say "Register this connection's addresses in DNS"
and "Use this connection's DNS suffix in DNS registration".

Thanks,
Mike

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From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 28 23:25:55 2006
From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:25:55 +0100
Subject: MySQL Help - Remote Access
In-Reply-To: <44A15368.8010703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A15368.8010703@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A31003.80304@quadratic.net>

OMG!!!!!

* not wildcard in mysql ..
% is wildcard.

More:
http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/connection-access.html


Stephen wrote:
> A bit off topic but I am using a (Red Hat) Linux server.
>
> I have Apache, PHP, Samba, and local connections to MySQL running just 
> fine.
>
> I want to do remote connections using MySQL administrator.
>
> I have added rows (Using GRANT) in the user table with host set to * 
> for the accounts I want to use. (This is on a private network, and for 
> testing).
>
> I flushed the privileges, and even rebooted the machine.
>
> But I get an error saying I cannot connect from the remote computer.
>
> Is there some global setting in a config file, or something else I 
> must do?
>
> Thanks
> Stephen
>
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 00:02:20 2006
From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:02:20 -0400
Subject: Suse 10.1 & 10.2 kernel versions
Message-ID: <44A3188C.6000003@rogers.com>

Hey,

Can anyone tell me what the stock kernel versions are for suse 10.1 and 
the 10.2 alphas, and when updated what the latest versions are?

Cheers,
B
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 00:30:09 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:30:09 -0400
Subject: Suse 10.1 & 10.2 kernel versions
In-Reply-To: <44A3188C.6000003-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A3188C.6000003@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0@CEZ.ICE>

Byron Sonne wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the stock kernel versions are for suse 10.1 and 
> the 10.2 alphas, and when updated what the latest versions are?

2.6.16.13 and 2.6.16.18 respectively. Distrowatch is great for package 
version details for any released distro, tuxmachines does frequent 
reviews of alpha/beta and released versions, usually giving important 
details like kernel version, gcc, etc.

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse

http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/7615

Jamon
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 00:31:21 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:31:21 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A26DB8.1050801-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>

Meng Cheah wrote:
> Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or
> investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and
> to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations
> or other governmental request."
> 
> Bell Sympatico's new customer service agreement, which took effect June
> 15, is a clear signal the telecommunications industry expects the
> Conservative government to revive the surveillance law, said Michael
> Geist, an Internet law professor at the University of Ottawa.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060627.gtsecurity0627/BNStory/Technology/

Perhaps people should be encouraged to use encryption on their email etc.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 00:31:29 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:31:29 -0400
Subject: User Friendly
Message-ID: <44A31F61.4070804@rogers.com>


<http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/06jun/uf009228.gif>
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From ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 01:08:19 2006
From: ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ralph Ellis)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:08:19 -0400
Subject: Suse 10.1 & 10.2 kernel versions
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A3188C.6000003@rogers.com> <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <44A32803.5000800@netscape.ca>

Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Byron Sonne wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what the stock kernel versions are for suse 10.1 
>> and the 10.2 alphas, and when updated what the latest versions are?
>
> 2.6.16.13 and 2.6.16.18 respectively. Distrowatch is great for package 
> version details for any released distro, tuxmachines does frequent 
> reviews of alpha/beta and released versions, usually giving important 
> details like kernel version, gcc, etc.
>
> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse
>
> http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/7615
>
> Jamon
> -- 
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
I recently started using the 2.6.16.20 kernel which I think was just out 
on the weekend. It seems to work just fine. The only alpha parts that I 
have had any problems with are the upgrades on k3b. Stick with the older 
version on that. Otherwise the 10.1.1 alpha seems to work a little 
faster than 10.1 and is stable.
Ralph Ellis
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 01:19:19 2006
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:19:19 -0400
Subject: Insecurity by default (was: MySQL Help)
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A32A97.8040306@rogers.com>

Jason Spiro wrote:
>> > The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.
>>
>> e.g. - insecure by default.
>
> I hate "insecure by default" products. It's led to so many PHP
> injection attacks internet wide you wouldn't believe it, including PHP
> bulletin board software worms that attack server machines.
>
> How can "insecurity by default" be discouraged, though? Boycott such 
> products???

Hmmm... how often is a database server never accessed across a network? 
I just don't see that many database administrators going into the server 
room to do their work.

I agree with the sentiment, but this is not a very good example of a 
violation.

Stephen

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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 01:42:39 2006
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:42:39 -0400
Subject: hardware digital timestamp appliance
In-Reply-To: <44A2FCE2.3090003-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <23217FE2-FD12-43F9-8F6C-ABDA22B72AB3@visibleassets.com> <1150897416.19409.232.camel@localhost.localdomain> <D06CE62F-9C7F-4827-A809-0D6C8746FC10@visibleassets.com> <4499C876.3040904@quadratic.net> <E32DCA9D-C67E-4277-8891-059B8991C456@visibleassets.com> <44A2FCE2.3090003@quadratic.net>
Message-ID: <F2889C11-F03C-45D0-9275-703B7D44D726@visibleassets.com>

David,

At this point I have mod_tsa built, but it errors out, I don't have  
the time at the moment to figure out why.

I did get opentsa built and confirmed that I can digitally timestamp  
a document. AFAICT, it's a moot point, I don't think timestamping  
your own documents is allowed?

dave
On 28-Jun-06, at 6:04 PM, David Thornton wrote:

> <top post>
>
> Update please!
>
> how are you getting on? Jury rig? Duct tape?
> Bash script?
> COTS Solution?
>
> David
>
> Dave Cramer wrote:
>> That's pieces of it, yes. I've been trying to build mod_tsa with  
>> little luck
>>
>> with a gps receiver and mod_tsa and a real cert that's all that is  
>> required.
>>
>> At this point the hardware may be cheaper than my time. There's  
>> also a requirement for storing keys on a secure physical medium.
>>
>> Dave
>> On 21-Jun-06, at 6:30 PM, David Thornton wrote:
>>
>>> what about a ntp server connected to a gps unit?
>>>
>>> Would that do the job?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>> Hey,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, actually I"m looking for something a little more  
>>>> integrated. I've seen the Dallas stuff.
>>>>
>>>> What I"m looking for is referred to as a host security module.
>>>>
>>>> The end result is I want to create a Timestamp Authority. I've  
>>>> tried mod_tsa, but I get errors using the module.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>> On 21-Jun-06, at 9:43 AM, Interlug wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 2006-21-06 at 08:13 -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
>>>>>> Does anyone know a manufacturer of these?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a company in Ottawa that was doing secure cards, but I
>>>>>> can't remember the name ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure what level of integration you are looking for, but  
>>>>> I've
>>>>> always had a Jones for the stuff these guys make.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warning: This link is of interest to Electronics Geeks only.
>>>>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2910
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>

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From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 02:27:05 2006
From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:27:05 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A31F59.4050004-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
	<44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:31:21 -0400
James Knott got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Perhaps people should be encouraged to use encryption on their email etc.

Definitely. However...

...perhaps people should call Sympatico and cancel their service. If they are
not challenged on this, then eventually all ISP's will think it's okay to
support a Police State.

Any suggestions as to an alternative? God, please, not Rogers ;-)

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
///////////////////////////
"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be
afraid of the People." -- V.
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 02:28:15 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:28:15 -0700
Subject: Insecurity by default (was: MySQL Help)
In-Reply-To: <44A32A97.8040306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248@mail.gmail.com>
	 <44A32A97.8040306@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606281928y33145e9eyeec7431087f0af56@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Jason Spiro wrote:
> >> > The MySQL docs say networking is on by default.
> >>
> >> e.g. - insecure by default.
> >
> > I hate "insecure by default" products. It's led to so many PHP
> > injection attacks internet wide you wouldn't believe it, including PHP
> > bulletin board software worms that attack server machines.
> >
> > How can "insecurity by default" be discouraged, though? Boycott such
> > products???
>
> Hmmm... how often is a database server never accessed across a network?
>
> I agree with the sentiment, but this is not a very good example of a
> violation.

_The Database Hacker's Handbook : Defending Database Servers_ points
at this very issue as being a visible failing of most of the 7
databases that it analyzes in depth.

Yes, databases are commonly accessed across a network; configuring it
to be thus accessible by default, is, however, a clear mistake.  It
means that if the database is installed, by default, then there's a
hole.  If you weren't aware that the database was installed, that's a
hole you are unaware of.

At one time, Red Hat's distributions opened up a whole lot of services
to the network by default.  "Script kiddies" had a heyday with this;
they had services to attack that users weren't even aware they had
running and needed to secure.

> I just don't see that many database administrators going into the server
> room to do their work.

Nonsense.  I'm not talking about some requirement of going to the
console to access the database.  Defaulting to "local only" is a
decent start; that requires that you have SSH access; that gets you to
a shell on the DB server, and from there, you can use local access.

If you only have one server in your environment, THAT'S FINE.  Local
access is all that's needed; restricting access to the DB to local
users means that an attacker has to get in via ssh or telnet or such,
and has already gotten local access.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 03:12:04 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:12:04 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

A 'stunt' is a bad idea. I hate working for free. I still think one
event with many developer environments on hand to introduce to the
novice to the strengths and weaknesses of particular programming
environments for particular applications. I remember when the Vic20 came
out. Everyone was typing lines of code from the manual to see how an
actual lame computer program functioned. People are results oriented.
What could be more boring than an accounting convention? A computer
programming convention. Not many people want to watch a screen full of
brace brackets for hours on end. They want to see a quick evolution of
ideas into usable mouse clicks and keyboard strokes which will produce a
relevant output at the printer or screen or car dashboard or TIVO box or
hand held device or bank machine or ..... 

On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 21:32 +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 15:42 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> > > Some sort of developer environment/show (like Google summer of code) may
> > > be preferable to a simple Installfest. People need to see how to develop
> > > applications for Linux from sketch to debugged product. Window$
> > > advocates keep harping on how Linux does'nt have the 'developer model'
> > > like what the world's greediest men from Redmond developed. A push to
> > > promote multiple developer environments to quickly churn out
> > > applications will turn some heads.
> > > RickT
> >
> > PegaSoft has its annual Summer Programming Challenge and Linux Summer
> > Retreat in August.  However, my experience is that developers are
> > interested unless there's a big wad of cash involved.
> 
> I don't see there being any value in trying to do the "stunt" of
> having a LUG arrange something like this.  This isn't the sort of
> activity that leverages the Strength of Geographical Community that
> LUGs hold.
> 
> There's too much diversity of interests and too little specificity of
> competence in such contexts.
> 
> It is something that does, instead, frequently occur when groups
> associated with particular OSS projects get together.
> 
> For instance, July 10-12th, there will be a PostgreSQL "Code Sprint"
> in Toronto as most of the core developers will be in Toronto in one
> spot.
> 
> There have frequently been similar groupings at conferences:
>  - X11 work at various technical conferences over the years when a
> bunch of X-heads have been present
>  - OLS tends to be preceded by this sort of activity for Linux kernel developers
>  - The days before BSDCAN involved meetings of the BSD core folk together
> 
> In each of those cases, that's playing to the strength of the respective group.
> 
> When I was in Texas, there were several proposals for "coding stunts"
> that would always fall through because making up a project for the
> purposes of the stunt turned out to not attract anyone...
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 03:14:19 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:14:19 -0500
Subject: OT: Member in Waterloo
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606281423l1d7b016chf80fc813d7dd4963-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A285DD.6050601@sympatico.ca>
	 <1151502292.10260.195.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <c241693f0606281423l1d7b016chf80fc813d7dd4963@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606282014m80916c2sc0c617cbb1fc17d8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> By the way, does anyone know: is it possible to do a full-text search
> through all of gmane's archives?

Maybe through google?
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 03:25:45 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:25:45 -0500
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>
	 <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606282025l392c0a15l3df238e162575925@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, JoeHill <joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Any suggestions as to an alternative? God, please, not Rogers ;-)

Strangely, I just confirmed that the Rogers wireless internet access
is unmetered for business users, and I'm strongly thinking of jumping
ship so that I can also discard the phone service and get VoIP of some
kind.

I'll start another thread for VoIP services.  I don't know much about
what's out there.
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 03:29:46 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:29:46 -0500
Subject: [OT] VoIP recommendations
Message-ID: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769@mail.gmail.com>

Strangely, I just confirmed that the Rogers wireless internet access
is unmetered for business users, and I'm strongly thinking of jumping
ship so that I can also discard the phone service and get VoIP of some
kind.

So what all is out there?  The last time I checked, Skype didn't have
inbound numbers for Canada.  =/

What's particularly easy to use, requiring no computer?  Standalone
boxes are interesting enough that I'd like to learn about what's out
there.
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 03:34:43 2006
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:34:43 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>	<44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com> <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CD602BC5496877828FE2B27C0@CEZ.ICE>

JoeHill wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:31:21 -0400
> James Knott got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
> 
>> Perhaps people should be encouraged to use encryption on their email etc.
> 
> Definitely. However...
> 
> ...perhaps people should call Sympatico and cancel their service. If they are
> not challenged on this, then eventually all ISP's will think it's okay to
> support a Police State.
> 
> Any suggestions as to an alternative? God, please, not Rogers ;-)

Wireless Nomad? I'm not sure what their policy is, and well, if the
gov't reintroduces the legislation to which Sympatico seems to be
preemptively adhering, it might make little difference. The other
thought, ISP's could well be checking on users anyways...

I guess the other question, mightn't Bell allowed to monitor dry dsl 
lines that are leased to smaller isp's? If not the lines themselves, how 
about the uplink to the Bell-Nexxia network?

Jamon



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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 04:29:20 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:29:20 -0500
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CD602BC5496877828FE2B27C0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>
	 <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	 <BAYC1-PASMTP08CD602BC5496877828FE2B27C0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606282129l59712365le0aaa6403627b0e4@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Wireless Nomad?

http://www.wirelessnomad.com

Whoa.. awesome.  Thanks for the mention.
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From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 04:29:04 2006
From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:29:04 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A26DB8.1050801-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <44A35710.9060303@rogers.com>

I don't want to be a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure all ISPs will bend 
over for the government, or wind up extinct.

For folks that have trouble delivering reliable service, one would 
expect them to be even more incapable of delivering on moral obligations.
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From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 05:17:29 2006
From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David C. Chipman)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:17:29 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	<d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060629011729.0c2218ad.dchipman@ican.net>

	Hi Gang, 

Do we have a connection with
> a car- and transit-friendly campus in town?  

		My mother is a UofT professor. Is that close enough? I'll have to ask her if she would help. But, she teaches in the Med School-I don't know if that matters, through. Later, 

			-David Chipman
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 10:46:15 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:46:15 -0400
Subject: [OT] VoIP recommendations
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A3AF77.3060200@pppoe.ca>

Sy Ali wrote:

> Strangely, I just confirmed that the Rogers wireless internet access
> is unmetered for business users, and I'm strongly thinking of jumping
> ship so that I can also discard the phone service and get VoIP of some
> kind.
>
> So what all is out there?  The last time I checked, Skype didn't have
> inbound numbers for Canada.  =/
>
> What's particularly easy to use, requiring no computer?  Standalone
> boxes are interesting enough that I'd like to learn about what's out
> there.

You may want to check out http://www.taug.ca/index.php?page=home

*TAUG Meeting & Social (was last night)
*This month David Cook of Advantech will be giving a talk on embedded 
platforms and Asterisk. He will be covering the various non-standard 
platforms available, with a focus on the linux-friendly Linksys WRT54GS 
and OpenWRT distribution, the methods of installation, as well as the 
peculiarities of running Asterisk on embedded systems.



> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
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From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 10:46:33 2006
From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:46:33 -0400
Subject: Rogers Portable Internet
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606231239g47319838y47094977be82779e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1e55af990606231239g47319838y47094977be82779e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <adbefcbf0606290346m627ba7c7pe020c2bd6f2f0ff0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> .. except for the 30GB limit.  With no warnings and immediate
> disconnection when it's violated.  Oh, and businesses have no way to
> check their usage except to phone in.  Sad.

What happens when you exceed? Do they start charging you extra?
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 10:52:00 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:52:00 -0500
Subject: Rogers Portable Internet
In-Reply-To: <adbefcbf0606290346m627ba7c7pe020c2bd6f2f0ff0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <adbefcbf0606230801x409f03bbhcf39ec3954ef1f53@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1e55af990606231239g47319838y47094977be82779e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <adbefcbf0606290346m627ba7c7pe020c2bd6f2f0ff0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606290352m76ad652fl5b04e58cb98eced0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org <bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/23/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> > .. except for the 30GB limit.  With no warnings and immediate
> > disconnection when it's violated.  Oh, and businesses have no way to
> > check their usage except to phone in.  Sad.
>
> What happens when you exceed? Do they start charging you extra?

When I was first signing up I inquired after theri limits.

They said that I'd just be disconnected and there would be no extra
charges, nor could I pay more to exceed usage.

I called in recently to see what my usage was like this month, and
apparently they don't metre the usage at all.  =/

However, if I knew about it I would have gone with
http://www.wirelessnomad.com .. check them out.
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 11:31:03 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:31:03 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <44A35710.9060303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <44A35710.9060303@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <44A3B9F7.7000503@pppoe.ca>

Byron Sonne wrote:

> I don't want to be a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure all ISPs will bend 
> over for the government, or wind up extinct.
>
Not only ISPs :-)

 From The Toronto Star today, 
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151531412964&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

Excepts below:

Bank of Canada governor David Dodge knew in 2002 that the U.S. 
government wanted data from an international banking organization for 
use in its war on terror.Dodge declined yesterday to comment on the U.S. 
program, in which information on international financial transactions ? 
including Canadian data ? was given to the Americans.

John McCallum, finance critic for the federal Liberals, said Canadians 
should be worried if personal information was sent to the CIA.It would 
fly in the face of Canadian law and banking practice, said McCallum, a 
senior executive with Royal Bank of Canada before joining former prime 
minister Paul Martin's cabinet as minister and secretary of state for 
financial institutions.

No one involved with the Canadian banking system, SWIFT or the U.S. 
government will say what Canadian financial data, if any, might have 
been seen by U.S. authorities, but Canada's privacy commissioner is 
looking into the program.Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart did not 
elaborate yesterday on what form her inquiry will take, but a 
spokesperson stressed that the possible breach is being taken 
seriously."Obviously this is something we can't ignore," said Anne-Marie 
Hayden, speaking for Stoddart. "We are looking into the matter, though 
the extent to which we get involved has yet to be determined. There are 
questions around jurisdiction."It's unclear what steps Stoddart can 
take, beyond making recommendations to halt any exchange of information.
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From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 11:34:14 2006
From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:34:14 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <1151550724.4466.30.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>

On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 23:12 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> A 'stunt' is a bad idea. I hate working for free. I still think one
> event with many developer environments on hand to introduce to the
> novice to the strengths and weaknesses of particular programming
> environments for particular applications.

That won't happen unless you can convince the developers that it is
worth their time.  That is, to show financial benefit.  LUGS have no
money to pay developers to overcome their intertia, unless they can
justify it to their bosses as a day of work.

With PegaSoft's Summer Programming Challenge, I'd love to offer $10,000
first prize...but like many programmers, I've spent half of the last 5
years unemployed after the 9/11 IT crumble.  The PegaSoft Summer Retreat
is another story.  I don't know why more people don't sign up to get
away for a weekend and have some 1-on-1 Linux collaboration, unless they
don't want to book a vacation day.  Last year's retreat was the best
time I had all summer.

Ken B.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken O. Burtch                                     Phone: 905-562-0848
Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash"            Fax: 905-562-0848
http://www.pegasoft.ca                            Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear.

--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 12:14:01 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:14:01 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <1151580854.3722.10.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Ken Burtch <kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 23:12 -0400, Rick Tomaschuk wrote:
> > A 'stunt' is a bad idea. I hate working for free. I still think one
> > event with many developer environments on hand to introduce to the
> > novice to the strengths and weaknesses of particular programming
> > environments for particular applications.
>
> That won't happen unless you can convince the developers that it is
> worth their time.  That is, to show financial benefit.  LUGS have no
> money to pay developers to overcome their intertia, unless they can
> justify it to their bosses as a day of work.

Did I, or did I not give several counterexamples?

The committee that is organizing the PostgreSQL conference next week
does NOT have money to pay people.  Nonetheless, many have expressed
interest in getting together to work on the software.

You guys are missing the point of how free software has come to be in
the first place.  Without people volunteering to write code, there
would be no Linux, no GCC, no GNU tools, no X.org, no PostgreSQL, no
Apache, no Perl.

There would be no Linux distributions, and there would be no TLUG.

Admittedly, it all exists, now, and people that are incapable of
imagining working on it "for free" can sponge off the efforts of all
the volunteers.  Indeed, people that are unwilling to do anything
without being paid can use the software without paying the people that
were willing.

Of course, what we've noticed in the community is that those are the
sorts of people that are the least stable members of the user
community.  Companies that are happy to "leech" off our efforts
without making any kind of contribution themselves are readily here
today, and gone tomorrow, when their perceived "business strategy"
changes.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 12:22:20 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:22:20 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <20060629011729.0c2218ad.dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060629011729.0c2218ad.dchipman@ican.net>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606290522v7b20955bpcfda09df86f62d9f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, David C. Chipman <dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>         Hi Gang,
>
> Do we have a connection with
> > a car- and transit-friendly campus in town?
>
>                 My mother is a UofT professor. Is that close enough? I'll have to ask her if she would help. But, she teaches in the Med School-I don't know if that matters, through. Later,

That would only help if UofT were simultaneously car- and transit-friendly.

It is transit-friendly, though that's pretty useless to someone trying
to lug a computer and monitor and keyboard and cabling in.

"Transit-friendly" is not "install-friendly," because you've got
cumbersome computer equipment to tote around.

And UofT cannot possibly be car-friendly, because you have to get the
car in through traffic to a location that's NOT alongside a major
highway that doesn't have ample amounts of free parking.

In short, no, UofT downtown is a very questionable location for an InstallFest.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:00:46 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:00:46 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com> <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060629130046.GB1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 01:20:16PM -0400, Aaron Vegh wrote:
> I don't have speakers connected...do you think it woudl help? I mean,
> nothing happens when you hit the power; I guess I'd expect the PSU and
> CPU fans to start turning, if nothing else.

The speaker is the first place motherboards output error codes, since
they don't have video yet, and it can be done with a lot less processing
requirements.  Some boards can give beep codes even with no ram or cpu
installed.  It is worth hooking it up.

> I checked htat too, it seems to be in the right plug. I unplugged and
> replugged everythign just to be sure. Same problem!
> 
> I guess my thought now is that at least one component here is
> fracked...I just need to figure out which one.

The check of the power supply by shorting together the power on pins is
useful.  It may be the power supply is not listening to that signal and
hence never turns on (standby power is of course always on).

Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:02:43 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:02:43 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com> <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060629130243.GC1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 01:26:55PM -0400, Aaron Vegh wrote:
> Solved!
> 
> I noticed that the PSU had 230V as the supply, and being naive in
> these things I left it as-is. But a quick look at a couple other
> machines here confirmed that they were all using 115V! I flipped the
> switch and there you go.

Doh!  You mean there are still power supplies that aren't automatic? :)
Actually my latest power supply (a silverstone) also has the switch and
came set for 230V.  But since I was reading the instructions and it said
to check the switch setting, I did that before even installing it.

I guess the LED doesn't mind getting 1/2 the voltage it should be.  2.5V
is enough to light it even though it should be 5V.  At least it is
better than if they shipped it set to 115V and you plugged it into 230V.
Then it would do much more than nothing. :)

Len Sorensen
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From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:12:35 2006
From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:12:35 -0400
Subject: How can we help?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606290522v7b20955bpcfda09df86f62d9f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151497818.10260.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>	 <20060628060534.j2bm79bcficgo8cw@webmail.swiftpenguin.com>	 <d6d6637f0606280748j1f9923ebp77e925486bfffe9a@mail.gmail.com>	 <1f13df280606281041m57ec4f36y4293e19b0ec7f23b@mail.gmail.com>	 <c241693f0606281226x4516027cp389a25d6f52dc2c3@mail.gmail.com>	 <1f13df280606281300q2db4a7cfibf56d3db68669b88@mail.gmail.com>	 <20060629011729.0c2218ad.dchipman@ican.net> <d6d6637f0606290522v7b20955bpcfda09df86f62d9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A3D1C3.6070705@pppoe.ca>

Christopher Browne wrote:

> In short, no, UofT downtown is a very questionable location for an 
> InstallFest.

Last night at the Asterisk meeting, I asked Simon whether he had to pay 
for the use of the Members Lounge of the North York Civic Centre (in Mel 
Lastman Square). Simon informed me that as TAUG was non-profit, they had 
it for free. He also suggested the North York Library as an alternative 
although a fee would be required.

I didn't check out the parking but according to the TAUG website
Driving:

    The North York Civic Centre (in Mel Lastman Square) is located on
    the West side of Yonge Street, just North of Yonge and Sheppard.
    There is plenty of (P)arking behind the building at 180 Beecroft
    Road, or underneath Empress Walk (entrance is off of Yonge and
    Emwood Ave.) 

TTC:

    The North York Civic Centre (in Mel Lastman Square) is located at
    the North York Centre subway stop, one stop North of Sheppard Station. 


Perhaps other members would know better about parking at both venues.

Personally, I'd like to hear a series of short talks on Linux and 
applications for small businesses.
Examples of financial/accounting, POS, etc. Any members would like to 
contribute?

My 2-cents :-)
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From ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:29:55 2006
From: ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (bob)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:29:55 -0400
Subject: SIMPL open source project... / Send/Receive/Reply message passing
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606281457g68b20bdex22ccaab09b1e6fea-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606221057j4ddc6c38g656b122ddd992566@mail.gmail.com> <c241693f0606281433vfd04e8ao792559a98a3d7f6c@mail.gmail.com> <d6d6637f0606281457g68b20bdex22ccaab09b1e6fea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606290929.55945.ican@netrover.com>

On Wednesday 28 June 2006 05:57 pm, Christopher Browne wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On 6/22/06, bob <ican-rZHaEmXdJNJWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > In reality the SIMPL API is really just 5 main functions:
> > >
> > > name_attach() - to register a process name
> > > name_locate() - to open a communication channel to a process found by
> > > name
> > > Send() - throw off a message and wait for a response
> > > Reply() - respond to a message
> > > Receive() - wait for a message to be thrown your way
> >
> > Isn't this similar to the use of TCP sockets or Unix named sockets?
>
> Sure, it's *similar*.
>
> But that's only true in the bland sense that "everything on Unix
> involves manipulating files."  Which may at some level be true, but if
> you're trying to reverse engineer someone's binary data format, it may
> include a whole lot of cursing...
>
> By layering the API on top, you don't need, as a programmer, to pay
> attention to the details of how messages go back and forth.  It's easy
> to work with messages; they look nice and atomic, as opposed to
> figuring out how many bytes to read from a socket.
>
> The docs for Isect outline this nicely...
> http://isectd.sourceforge.net/isect_1.html#SEC1
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Long before the buzzwords "client-server" and "middleware" were ever
> coined, programmers used middleware to build client-server systems.
> They programmed using character or block IO directly to the network
> devices which may have been proprietary, like Data General's MCA
> cards, or standard like UARTs for serial communications.
>
> Over TCP/IP networks, regardless whether the network interface is
> token-ring, ethernet, or PPP, the socket library developed at the
> University of Berkeley became the standard way for programs running on
> different computers (or even the same computer) to communicate with
> each other.
>
> But writing servers is more complicated than just read()ing requests
> from a client. What if there are multiple clients? What if the client
> dies while you're still processing? What if the server dies? How does
> the client find the server? Should or must the server be multitasking?
> How should semaphores be used? These issues all concern network
> programming and have little (read: nothing) to do with what the
> programmer really needs the server to do. In fact, for simple server
> programs the overhead of the network programming may make it not worth
> it to create the server in the first place.
> ---------------------------------------------

Don't forget the built in synchronization that comes from the S/R/R messaging.   
This is a huge benefit when trying to design and debug complex networked 
systems.

As a rule regardless of how they are deployed (single node or multinode) S/R/R 
systems are forced to behave reproducably.     Nothing makes a testing 
engineer wish for a career change more than a system which exibits chaotic 
and unreproducable behavior.

In fact most S/R/R systems are built and fully tested on a single node and 
then simply redeployed on a network.     If done properly the only thing that 
changes is the apparent execution speed.    The S/R/R sychronization looks 
after insuring that the message sequence is always reproducable ... network 
or not.

The earliest SIMPL implementations (~1997) were done on an AIX system using 
TCP/IP sockets to carry all the messaging.   The current implementation uses 
shared memory blocks to carry the message traffic (locally) and named pipes 
(fifos) to provide a select()'able fd for synchronization.    Along the way 
there have been kernel module implementations of SIMPL ... most of which are 
in severe need of maintainence attention as the Linux kernel internals keep 
evolving.    Although the kernel module implementations offered better 
performance (rivaling QNX in on some hardware) than the shared memory/fifo 
implementation the issues of maintenance overwelmed that advantage in most 
cases.

Actually there still is a TCP/IP implementation of SIMPL which was originally 
developed to allow Tcl/Tk applets to converse,  but has since been extended 
to any inter OS Tcl/Tk communication. (eg.  Windows to Linux,  or Linux to 
deeply embedded devices).

To carry the messages between nodes the SIMPL project provides generic 
surrogates which convert the local shared memory to a TCP/IP stream and then 
back again.   The surrogate framework is general enough that any data 
transport scheme (eg. RS232/485,  replicated memory  etc.) could be used 
transparently and even in parallel (as a failover redundancy scheme).

The surrogates embody all the "knowledge" of the network and simply treat the 
messages as data packets to be transported.     The surrogate abstraction 
saves the programmer a great deal of effort and allows him/her to concentrate 
on building the application code to solve the problem at hand.

bob
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From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:50:02 2006
From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:50:02 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606282025l392c0a15l3df238e162575925-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>
	 <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	 <1e55af990606282025l392c0a15l3df238e162575925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1151589002.22741.352.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>

On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:25 -0500, Sy Ali wrote:
> Strangely, I just confirmed that the Rogers wireless internet access
> is unmetered for business users, and I'm strongly thinking of jumping
> ship so that I can also discard the phone service and get VoIP of some
> kind.

Email for business users is metered, and quite strictly. If you exceed
their limit (e.g. running a mailling list) they will cut off your
Internet access. A simple phone call is all it takes to re-instate it,
but the second time, you're cut off for a week with no recourse. This
was over a year ago but I doubt they changed their policy. 
-- 
John Van Ostrand
         Net Direct Inc.
 
Chief Technology Officer
564 Weber St. N. Unit 12
   Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 
 map 
john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org
        Ph: 519-883-1172
 ext.5102
Linux Solutions / IBM
Hardware
        Fx: 519-883-8533
 

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 13:53:45 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:53:45 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <20060629135345.GD1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 02:28:52PM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Has anyone any experience connecting
> to MS VPNs over PPTP?  I'm particularly
> interested in knowing what options
> in /etc/ppp/options.pptp correspond
> to what choices in the network setup
> wizard in Windows (I have the connection
> working in Windows, so if I just knew
> what those things correspond to, I should
> be able to set it up from Linux (debian stable).)

I thought PPTP was dead due to the security issues it has?

Len Sorensen
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From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 14:59:46 2006
From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Insecurity by default (was: MySQL Help)
In-Reply-To: <44A32A97.8040306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <c241693f0606281439m79a40624vfd2b3bb6f42e2248@mail.gmail.com>
 <44A32A97.8040306@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606291057210.11861@mimosa.opentrend.net>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Stephen wrote:

> Hmmm... how often is a database server never accessed across a network? I 
> just don't see that many database administrators going into the server room 
> to do their work.

There is a middle ground here.  When I want to access a DB I typically ssh 
to the server and access the DB over localhost using mysql or psql.  A lot 
of DB servers I use/manage are not listening on any network interface 
except lo but I certainly don't need to physically visit them to access 
the DB.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc.        Phone:          +1-905-821-2327
Senior Technical Consultant  Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073
OpenTrend Solutions Ltd      Email:          support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org
                              Web:            www.opentrend.net
We are open 24x365 for technical support.  Call us in a crisis.

If you are emailing regarding an open ticket please consider
mentioning the ticket ID as this will assist us in responding
as quickly as possible.
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 15:34:38 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:34:38 -0400
Subject: OT: Member in Waterloo
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606282014m80916c2sc0c617cbb1fc17d8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A285DD.6050601@sympatico.ca>
	 <1151502292.10260.195.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <c241693f0606281423l1d7b016chf80fc813d7dd4963@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1e55af990606282014m80916c2sc0c617cbb1fc17d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606290834y685c950bq1aac208dc8d474e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > By the way, does anyone know: is it possible to do a full-text search
> > through all of gmane's archives?
>
> Maybe through google?

Dunno. I just found their search page, though; http://search.gmane.org/

I wonder why they don't put a search box on their group view pages.
--
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 15:39:07 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:39:07 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You guys are missing the point of how free software has come to be in
> the first place.  Without people volunteering to write code, there
> would be no Linux, no GCC, no GNU tools, no X.org, no PostgreSQL, no
> Apache, no Perl.
>
> There would be no Linux distributions, and there would be no TLUG.
>
> Admittedly, it all exists, now, and people that are incapable of
> imagining working on it "for free" can sponge off the efforts of all
> the volunteers.  Indeed, people that are unwilling to do anything
> without being paid can use the software without paying the people that
> were willing.
>
Many do non-developers do send bug reports or write documentation
(e.g. on webpages or on wikis) though.

Jason

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 16:56:15 2006
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:56:15 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > You guys are missing the point of how free software has come to be in
> > the first place.  Without people volunteering to write code, there
> > would be no Linux, no GCC, no GNU tools, no X.org, no PostgreSQL, no
> > Apache, no Perl.
> >
> > There would be no Linux distributions, and there would be no TLUG.
> >
> > Admittedly, it all exists, now, and people that are incapable of
> > imagining working on it "for free" can sponge off the efforts of all
> > the volunteers.  Indeed, people that are unwilling to do anything
> > without being paid can use the software without paying the people that
> > were willing.
> >
> Many do non-developers do send bug reports or write documentation
> (e.g. on webpages or on wikis) though.


Coding is overrated IMO.  It's cool, but overrated.

There are so many other aspects to developing products that
"non-programmers" are needed for.  Media, PR, organization, project
management - these are all things sucessful projects require, and most
need help with.

Just my $0.02  =)

-- 
Scott Elcomb
http://w3.avidus.ca/

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle,
stand like a rock."

  - Thomas Jefferson
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 16:59:49 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:49 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <20060629135345.GD1444-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<20060629135345.GD1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060629125949.otatge1z0g8g04ws@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:

> On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 02:28:52PM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
>> Has anyone any experience connecting
>> to MS VPNs over PPTP?  I'm particularly
>> interested in knowing what options
>> in /etc/ppp/options.pptp correspond
>> to what choices in the network setup
>> wizard in Windows (I have the connection
>> working in Windows, so if I just knew
>> what those things correspond to, I should
>> be able to set it up from Linux (debian stable).)
>
> I thought PPTP was dead due to the security issues it has?

First I've heard of it.  Could you elaborate on that?

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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 17:09:46 2006
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:09:46 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <1151523744.4639.17.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0606291009j27552e55l8f2a0340b72f75a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Rick Tomaschuk <rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Some sort of developer environment/show (like Google summer of code) may
> be preferable to a simple Installfest. People need to see how to develop
> applications for Linux from sketch to debugged product. Window$
> advocates keep harping on how Linux does'nt have the 'developer model'
> like what the world's greediest men from Redmond developed. A push to
> promote multiple developer environments to quickly churn out
> applications will turn some heads.
> RickT

Rather separating hacking from the newbies, might it be better to run
a hackfest alongside an installfest?  That way the new folks looking
for help would see first-hand how their free/libre software is made -
albiet in a PR-friendly way.

-- 
Scott Elcomb
http://w3.avidus.ca/

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle,
stand like a rock."

  - Thomas Jefferson
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 18:38:00 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:38:00 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291138s6e4425e8v886b35de4a731a24@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Scott Elcomb <psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Coding is overrated IMO.  It's cool, but overrated.
>
> There are so many other aspects to developing products that
> "non-programmers" are needed for.  Media, PR, organization, project
> management - these are all things sucessful projects require, and most
> need help with.
>

It is overrated, but isn't that because it is hard for most OSS fans
to sit and find the time and concentration for good long coding
sessions?

Though many excellent projects are also sorely lacking good
documentation (sometimes even a README and FAQ) and a good, nicely
graphic-designed homepage. Perhaps that's because the people who
contribute these things don't always get enough credit. Why are
webmasters and doc writers not mentioned in the
Help->About...->Credits... box of most apps?

--
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 18:39:35 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:39:35 +0000
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Scott Elcomb <psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > You guys are missing the point of how free software has come to be in
> > > the first place.  Without people volunteering to write code, there
> > > would be no Linux, no GCC, no GNU tools, no X.org, no PostgreSQL, no
> > > Apache, no Perl.
> > >
> > > There would be no Linux distributions, and there would be no TLUG.
> > >
> > > Admittedly, it all exists, now, and people that are incapable of
> > > imagining working on it "for free" can sponge off the efforts of all
> > > the volunteers.  Indeed, people that are unwilling to do anything
> > > without being paid can use the software without paying the people that
> > > were willing.
> > >
> > Many do non-developers do send bug reports or write documentation
> > (e.g. on webpages or on wikis) though.
>
>
> Coding is overrated IMO.  It's cool, but overrated.
>
> There are so many other aspects to developing products that
> "non-programmers" are needed for.  Media, PR, organization, project
> management - these are all things sucessful projects require, and most
> need help with.

Show me a project that has a good set of non-programmers but no
programmers that has produced useful software, and I'll gladly agree.

At the base, software projects require that code be written.  Without
that, there is no project.

People can help by doing other things.  Submitting good bug reports is
something I'd put high on the list.

But you can only influence free software projects in limited ways if
you aren't writing code.  And I see no reason for apology for that;
far too often, the fact that business-based development operates the
opposite way leads to the many sorts of idiocy recounted in Dilbert
cartoons.

The idiots that couldn't write the software if their lives depended on
it make ludicrous promises about functionality that they aren't
responsible to live up to.

One of the reasons why many of us came to Linux is that it was created
by programmers for programmers, rather than being designed by morons
for morons.  I see no reason to apologize for that; it wasn't a
mistake.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 18:44:40 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:44:40 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291144u29e5d6a7h65c7f94811b6871b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> One of the reasons why many of us came to Linux is that it was created
> by programmers for programmers, rather than being designed by morons
> for morons.  I see no reason to apologize for that; it wasn't a
> mistake.

Are you saying Linux should be made harder to use so non-experts won't
get the benefits of Linux and will be forced to use Windows or MacOS
instead?? :-)

The security holes of Windows (which allowed Blaster, Code Red, and
lots of spyware) affect the companies we deal with and work at, and
affect our friends and relatives too. Indirectly, they affect us all.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 18:47:30 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:47:30 -0400
Subject: OT: Big Brother watching you surf?
In-Reply-To: <1151589002.22741.352.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A26DB8.1050801@pppoe.ca> <44A31F59.4050004@rogers.com>
	 <20060628222705.1fd23cd7.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	 <1e55af990606282025l392c0a15l3df238e162575925@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151589002.22741.352.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291147x46349eecgcfe285c484602e8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, John Van Ostrand <john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Email for business users is metered, and quite strictly.
Why would they prevent business users from running non-spammish
mailing lists? Is this an overdone anti-spam measure? A cost-saving
measure? In other words, what's in it for Sympatico?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 18:51:48 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:51:48 -0400
Subject: OT: Bill Gates' piracy confession
In-Reply-To: <44A0AD36.3010206-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A0AD36.3010206@pppoe.ca>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291151h29d52655sd4412ea9b52e51c8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Meng Cheah <meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> [snip]
> By Robert L. Mitchell <http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/blog/28> on
> Tue, 06/20/2006 - 12:53pm
>
> If you read way down to the bottom of a Wall Street Journal interview
> with Bill Gates that ran yesterday, you'll discover that the Microsoft
> executive admitted to watching pirated movies on the Internet. The
> confession came as he was talking about content he had viewed on
> YouTube.
> [snippity snip]

Does YouTube not have a good system for flagging copyrighted content?
If it did then this issue would probably not have come up.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 19:03:29 2006
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:03:29 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0606291203u7089db43wda8fd133614a5e6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Scott Elcomb <psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
[...]
> > Coding is overrated IMO.  It's cool, but overrated.
> >
> > There are so many other aspects to developing products that
> > "non-programmers" are needed for.  Media, PR, organization, project
> > management - these are all things sucessful projects require, and most
> > need help with.
>
> Show me a project that has a good set of non-programmers but no
> programmers that has produced useful software, and I'll gladly agree.

Not looking for anyone to agree.  Code is just as necessary as the
rest, and in a sense, perhaps a little more-so.  End-user expectations
require the other components as well is all I meant.  ;-)

> But you can only influence free software projects in limited ways if
> you aren't writing code.  And I see no reason for apology for that;
> far too often, the fact that business-based development operates the
> opposite way leads to the many sorts of idiocy recounted in Dilbert
> cartoons.

Dilbert r0x.  Heheh.

Seriously though, I believe the perspective "only influence free
software projects in limited way if you aren't writing code" is
intuitive, but perhaps a little inaccurate.  No need to apologize at
all.  Takes alot of perspectives to build a community.

> The idiots that couldn't write the software if their lives depended on
> it make ludicrous promises about functionality that they aren't
> responsible to live up to.

Well, in part that might be a good thing.  If a prospective client
does actually spend some time in research (aka "the open source
method" - or the scientific one for that matter...) then they will
locate consultants or other specialists worth their salt.

Good business generates good business.

> One of the reasons why many of us came to Linux is that it was created
> by programmers for programmers, rather than being designed by morons
> for morons.  I see no reason to apologize for that; it wasn't a
> mistake.

Again, no need to apologize.  's a fact.

But maybe that thought is just one step on a longer journey.  All of
the world has tasted of Pandora's Box.

-- 
Scott Elcomb
http://w3.avidus.ca/

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle,
stand like a rock."

  - Thomas Jefferson
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 19:55:12 2006
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:55:12 +0000
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606291144u29e5d6a7h65c7f94811b6871b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291144u29e5d6a7h65c7f94811b6871b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0606291255j37f08f76s91ed1ab982649ff8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > One of the reasons why many of us came to Linux is that it was created
> > by programmers for programmers, rather than being designed by morons
> > for morons.  I see no reason to apologize for that; it wasn't a
> > mistake.
>
> Are you saying Linux should be made harder to use so non-experts won't
> get the benefits of Linux and will be forced to use Windows or MacOS
> instead?? :-)

I think there's a place for ignoring non-experts, at certain times...
<http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/03/msg02288.html>

Quoting selectively:

Executive Summary
=================

	1. Stupid Users are Bad.
	2. Stupid Users are Bad for Debian.
		therefore:
	3. Stupid Users should be ignored.

"Many people still complain that Debian is difficult, if not impossible, to
install and I poo on them. If they can't persevere the mountain, they
should not enjoy the fruits of the valley beyond it. "

"It is my hope that Debian maintainers read this and realize that a
larger base of users isn't necessarily a good thing. I believe that Debian
has found a niche with the advanced Linux user who doesn't have the time
to maintain trivial packages but doesn't want to lose the robustness of
CLIs but always have the option of customizing what they wish. A base of
users who would rather not download and recompile 'awk' but still have the
option to download apache source, recompile it, and integrate it as the
binary package would have. And finally, an excellent base of
self-supporting users who appreciate Debian for the advantages it gives
them and the way it keeps those annoying newbies out."

Debian came into existence, grew, and continues to grow due to its
"niche" of the "advanced Linux user who doesn't have the time to
maintain trivial packages."

If you get 5000 users, each of whom maintain two or three packages,
that makes for a POWERFUL system, which is what Debian is.

The considerable automation of package management means that people
aren't forced to do a lot of maintenance work to keep up to date; they
maybe have to resolve issues with the few packages that they
themselves are responsible for.

It has, of late, been getting more and more difficult to get major new
releases of Debian released; this hasn't been hurting my systems that
pluck from the code as I wish.

This doesn't represent an argument that someone else couldn't put
together some friendly front end to make a Debian-based distribution
that *can* be usable by "clueless users."  That is, after all, what
Ubuntu and Knoppix have done, in slightly different ways, and I
daresay I found it convenient last week when I installed Ubuntu on a
new laptop; I didn't have to bother with making many decisions.  It is
simply an argument against letting the ignorant make decisions about
Debian.

> The security holes of Windows (which allowed Blaster, Code Red, and
> lots of spyware) affect the companies we deal with and work at, and
> affect our friends and relatives too. Indirectly, they affect us all.

Sure.

But demanding that everything be made user-friendly without regard to
the consequences leads to the risk of plenty of the same things
happening all over again.

Microsoft shoved systems out on the basis that the marketing people
made wild promises about what was only vaguely available.  Do the same
thing to Linux, and the same sorts of problems can recur.
-- 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This
is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and
`||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jose-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 20:57:29 2006
From: jose-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (Jose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:57:29 -0400
Subject: syslog.conf network messages
In-Reply-To: <20060623210639.GA13102-Xa+LbO3DC1G2Q0qicKDiVp4VBq8PJc8F@public.gmane.org>
References: <4498471F.7070400@totaltravelmarketing.com> <20060623210639.GA13102@lemming.cita.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <44A43EB9.80207@totaltravelmarketing.com>

Robin Humble wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 03:06:07PM -0400, Jose wrote:
>   
>> I've been looking at the man pages for syslog.conf, and I need to start 
>> tracing the messages divided by services and more importantly by device 
>> (network cards, drives, etc), but I am not sure how to do this.
>>     
>
> syslog isn't really meant to be a per-device mechanism.
> its facility/priority stuff is also kinda obscure and not super-useful
> IMHO.
>
> what sort of messages are you expecting from NICs and drives anyway?
>
> for drives we use smartd which can email when there are problems.
> the kernel driver for the NICs will mostly use printk/DPRINTK or
> similar and so will get thrown in with all the other kernel messages.
>
> there are also montoring systems like ganglia and nagios
>
> overall I'd suggest just using tail -f and grep on an existing syslog
> file. if you have lots of machines then you can centralise the syslog
> data as well as keeping local copies. eg. put
>   *.info @192.168.some.ip
> at the end of syslog.conf, and start syslogd on the server with -r.
> that minimises the number of files that you need to monitor for
> unusual activity.
>
> cheers,
> robin
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
>
>
>   
Basically, we need to create a mechanism that would allow us to strip 
down messages coming in, may be on a daily basis according to the device 
in a different log file, so I thought that I could configure using 
syslog.conf to enforce it to catch the messages by device and pointing 
them to different files maybe using the local*, but I am not sure if 
this is possible at all.

Any advice

Thanks again for your time

J
--
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 21:26:01 2006
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:26:01 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606291138s6e4425e8v886b35de4a731a24-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291138s6e4425e8v886b35de4a731a24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0606291426i434deb66vfc85581d709735ee@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Scott Elcomb <psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Coding is overrated IMO.  It's cool, but overrated.
> >
> > There are so many other aspects to developing products that
> > "non-programmers" are needed for.  Media, PR, organization, project
> > management - these are all things sucessful projects require, and most
> > need help with.
> >
>
> It is overrated, but isn't that because it is hard for most OSS fans
> to sit and find the time and concentration for good long coding
> sessions?

I'd say no.  It's hard to sit and find the time for research.

> Though many excellent projects are also sorely lacking good
> documentation (sometimes even a README and FAQ) and a good, nicely
> graphic-designed homepage. Perhaps that's because the people who
> contribute these things don't always get enough credit. Why are
> webmasters and doc writers not mentioned in the
> Help->About...->Credits... box of most apps?

There are lots of jobs out there where people do not recieve the
credit they deserve.  On a more positive note, Web developers /are/
recognized as a job classification by the GoC:

http://www23.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/2001/e/groups/2175.shtml

-- 
Scott Elcomb
http://w3.avidus.ca/

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle,
stand like a rock."

  - Thomas Jefferson
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 21:29:23 2006
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:29:23 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <20060629125949.otatge1z0g8g04ws-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20060629135345.GD1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060629125949.otatge1z0g8g04ws@mail.math.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <20060629212923.GE1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 12:59:49PM -0400, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote:
> First I've heard of it.  Could you elaborate on that?

PPTP, at least as implemented by Microsoft back in NT4 when it was their
big thing, is not secure.  There were many bugs found in the
win95/98/NT4 code for pptp.  Many have been fixed, and they did switch
to using MS-CHAP v2, from the older much easier to break authentication.
As for how secure it is now, I am not sure, since from what I can tell,
MS-CHAP v2 is even considered fairly easy to crack.  The encryption is
only 40 or 128bit RC4 (if you happen to have the 128bit version, which
in the past of course was export controlled in the US).  40 bit
encryption is breakable in a very short time by brute force.  128 isn't
too bad.

A google search on pptp security has lots of info, although a lot is at
least a few years old, mainly since no one really cares about pptp
anymore now that we have ipsec, which was designed by people who know
how to make encryption, not by microsoft or the 802.11 group. :)

Len Sorensen
--
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 22:09:51 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:09:51 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>

I have a external USB hard drive with 2 partitions (sda1 -swap, sda2
-ext3) that I regularly attach to my main box as a backup drive.
Today, when I attached this external drive it states it has a "unknown
partition table" and refuses to mount.

Output of 'tail -n 50 /var/log/messages':

Jun 29 17:38:36 kambei kernel: usb 5-4: new high speed USB device
using ehci_hcd and address 4
Jun 29 17:38:37 kambei kernel: usb 5-4: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice
Jun 29 17:38:37 kambei kernel: scsi1 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass
Storage devices
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel:   Vendor: WDC WD16  Model: 00JB-00GVA0
     Rev:  0 0
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel:   Type:   Direct-Access
     ANSI SCSI revision: 00
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel: SCSI device sda: 312581808 512-byte
hdwr sectors (160042 MB)
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel: sda: Write Protect is off
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel: SCSI device sda: 312581808 512-byte
hdwr sectors (160042 MB)
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel: sda: Write Protect is off
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel:  sda: unknown partition table
Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel: sd 1:0:0:0: Attached scsi disk sda

When I try to mount the partition manually 'sudo mount -t ext3
/dev/sda2 /media/backup':

mount: special device /dev/sda2 does not exist

...and 'sudo cfdisk /dev/sda' outputs:

Unknown partition table type
Do you wish to start with a zero table [y/N] ?

Does starting with a zero table mean I lose all data on the disk? How
would I recover the previous partition table? Thanks for any help!
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From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 22:10:25 2006
From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:10:25 -0400
Subject: pptp
In-Reply-To: <20060629212923.GE1444-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060628142852.wajuwqi88wwc4sg0@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<20060629135345.GD1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20060629125949.otatge1z0g8g04ws@mail.math.yorku.ca>
	<20060629212923.GE1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060629181025.2k81u4o7rg0owkss@mail.math.yorku.ca>

Quoting Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:

> A google search on pptp security has lots of info, although a lot is at
> least a few years old, mainly since no one really cares about pptp
> anymore now that we have ipsec, which was designed by people who know
> how to make encryption, not by microsoft or the 802.11 group. :)

Well, that's all great, but it's not my VPN so I don't get
to choose.  I'm still hoping someone can help me map the
Windows options to the Linux ones.

Thanks,
Mike

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 22:10:35 2006
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:10:35 -0400
Subject: OT: troubleshooting steps on a custom-built PC?
In-Reply-To: <20060629130243.GC1444-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4386c5b20606280538k2921ed71s5bc71bc2eb11b02f@mail.gmail.com> <20060628143627.GA1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4386c5b20606281020j2b4b6f06oc1f2a08655277925@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20606281026m2aad33eal570623f5ac9f0b32@mail.gmail.com> <20060629130243.GC1444@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <44A44FDB.6080604@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> I guess the LED doesn't mind getting 1/2 the voltage it should be.  2.5V
> is enough to light it even though it should be 5V.

LEDs are current, not voltage driven.  In fact you'll find the voltage
across one is fairly constant, over a wide range of currents.  Also, the
power supply won't deliver just 1/2 the voltage.  It will try to
maintain its rated output, if possible.

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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 22:30:16 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:30:16 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Daniel Armstrong <dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
[snip]
> When I try to mount the partition manually 'sudo mount -t ext3
> /dev/sda2 /media/backup':
>
> mount: special device /dev/sda2 does not exist
>
> ...and 'sudo cfdisk /dev/sda' outputs:
>
> Unknown partition table type
> Do you wish to start with a zero table [y/N] ?
>
> Does starting with a zero table mean I lose all data on the disk?

Yes.

> How
> would I recover the previous partition table?
I have no clue. For starters: Does the disk work on other Linux
machines? Windows machines? (If you cannot check those: Does it work
when you boot off a Linux liveCD?) Also, what do you get when you run
gparted, gpart, sfdisk, or fdisk on the disk?

Please CC me,
Jason

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 22:48:25 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:48:25 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > ...and 'sudo cfdisk /dev/sda' outputs:
> >
> > Unknown partition table type
> > Do you wish to start with a zero table [y/N] ?
> >
> > Does starting with a zero table mean I lose all data on the disk?
>
> Yes.
>
> > How
> > would I recover the previous partition table?
> I have no clue. For starters: Does the disk work on other Linux
> machines? Windows machines? (If you cannot check those: Does it work
> when you boot off a Linux liveCD?) Also, what do you get when you run
> gparted, gpart, sfdisk, or fdisk on the disk?
>

I have tried connecting this external drive to other Linux machines...
same problem. Running cfdisk on the drive gives the result above...
fdisk and QTParted show an empty drive.
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:07:00 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:07:00 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606291255j37f08f76s91ed1ab982649ff8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291144u29e5d6a7h65c7f94811b6871b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291255j37f08f76s91ed1ab982649ff8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291607q6ba88aa7ja7442c6c31be764e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> [lots of good points and summarizing snipped]
>
> I think there's a place for ignoring non-experts, at certain times...
> <http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/03/msg02288.html>
>

I read it. Interesting article.

But why not have one distro with an expert mode for experts (e.g. with
a lower DEBCONF_PRIORITY etc.) and a regular mode?

1. Is it because non-experts will try to choose expert mode and then
ask for help?

2. Is it because the mailing lists, IRC channels, and especially the
forums will be filled with newbies?

3. Is it because then Mark Shuttleworth and his corporation Canonical
Ltd., who are giving away an excellent product for free called Ubuntu,
would get less name recognition?

I believe all these 3 problems are solvable.

1. Set a policy of not answering newbie questions for people who
choose expert mode.

2. Create expert lists and channels. Set a policy of not answering
newbie questions there.

3. Provide lots of recognition to Canonical on the combined-distro website.

So, do you think my proposal would have worked? And is it truly too
late to reunite Debian and Ubuntu into one distro with normal and
expert modes, or would the politics be too much?

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:09:43 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:09:43 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291609h13770bdaka78326ce56f04dc0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Daniel Armstrong <dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I have no clue. For starters: Does the disk work on other Linux
> > machines? Windows machines? (If you cannot check those: Does it work
> > when you boot off a Linux liveCD?) Also, what do you get when you run
> > gparted, gpart, sfdisk, or fdisk on the disk?
> >
>
> I have tried connecting this external drive to other Linux machines...
> same problem. Running cfdisk on the drive gives the result above...
> fdisk and QTParted show an empty drive.
>
gpart is nice, it scans the disk and figures out what the partition
table ought to be.

(I took the liberty of replying on-list even though you mailed me
offlist. Perhaps now someone else can help too.)

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:36:23 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:36:23 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606291609h13770bdaka78326ce56f04dc0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291609h13770bdaka78326ce56f04dc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606291636hbd0351hc44c2455ce2533c0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I have tried connecting this external drive to other Linux machines...
> > same problem. Running cfdisk on the drive gives the result above...
> > fdisk and QTParted show an empty drive.
> >
> gpart is nice, it scans the disk and figures out what the partition
> table ought to be.

Thanks for the gpart suggestion! Looks like a useful tool - I am
reading its man page right now, and will give it a try.
--
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:45:10 2006
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:45:10 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060629234510.GA988@wp.magstar.net>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 06:09:51PM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> I have a external USB hard drive with 2 partitions (sda1 -swap, sda2
> -ext3) that I regularly attach to my main box as a backup drive.
> Today, when I attached this external drive it states it has a "unknown
> partition table" and refuses to mount.
...
> Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel:   Vendor: WDC WD16  Model: 00JB-00GVA0

>From top of my head:
    1. WDC -- good life lesson here.
    2. bad USB enclosure -- take the harddisk out of USB enclosure, and
	    connect directly to IDE cable.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>, Toronto, Canada
ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive
	   http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html
BashDiff: Super Bash shell
	  http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
--
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From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:47:33 2006
From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0400
Subject: Developerfests vs Installfests
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1151523744.4639.17.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151528830.5626.1.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606281432v57ec3346ha7550b66e6ce7bb3@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1151550724.4466.30.camel@spot1.localhost.com>
	 <1151580854.3722.10.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca>
	 <d6d6637f0606290514s1c3c62b0j5bed091c17c609a9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606290839l28b96d02x65c17eca4607b638@mail.gmail.com>
	 <99a6c38f0606290956g6db92a18j75b4a6d23363df64@mail.gmail.com>
	 <d6d6637f0606291139q3f567660u267104e20da89f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1151624853.4486.23.camel@spot1.localhost.com>

I can manage quite well setting up my own *NIX systems. I have some
programming skills in C, shell scripts etc. and certifications in the
industry. I shudder when I consider hiring a programmer to write me some
piece of code. My first thought is let some of these mouthy programmers
get their own line of credit/VC and hire some mouthy spoiled brat to
drain their resources while writing crap code with endless revisions,
errors, excuses. My next thought is how can I avoid using computers
altogether allowing me to keep my line of credit/VC and invest in some
other area which will allow me more profitability and enjoyment of my
money. The thought that programmers live in a vacuum independent of the
economy is kind of far out in orbit. Our world requires some
interdependence. Computer programs are for the benefit of business,
science, problem solving. Business is about creating an environment
favorable to a win/win situation for both sides and is subject to supply
and demand. The reason I use Linux is for the 'community' knowledge pool
which can allow me some chance to be competitive in my business
undertakings. 
RickT

On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 18:39 +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:
> But you can only influence free software projects in limited ways if
> you aren't writing code.  And I see no reason for apology for that;
> far too often, the fact that business-based development operates the
> opposite way leads to the many sorts of idiocy recounted in Dilbert
> cartoons.
> 
> The idiots that couldn't write the software if their lives depended on
> it make ludicrous promises about functionality that they aren't
> responsible to live up to.
> 
> One of the reasons why many of us came to Linux is that it was created
> by programmers for programmers, rather than being designed by morons
> for morons.  I see no reason to apologize for that; it wasn't a
> mistake.
-- 
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca


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From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 29 23:47:32 2006
From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:47:32 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291630h4570890bw9733175028b319d0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291611u6f4c925eo4bf2559601afb7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291630h4570890bw9733175028b319d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c241693f0606291647of9a99c0qd9556db04543b01e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Daniel Armstrong <dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> But I wonder... is this "unknown partition table" an indication the
> drive is failing? I will have to investigate some diagnostic tools for
> checking hard drive health.
>
SMART is a nonintrusive way. smart-monitor can warn you of bad SMART
test results. Or smartmontools, if you want a tool you can use
interactively. Or your PC's BIOS might show the results of a SMART
check at every boot.

The Ultimate Boot CD has a bunch of HDD manufacturer utilities on it.
Dunno if there are any diagnostics on it though.

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also do computer training and spyware removal for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org / 416-781-5938 / Skype ID: jasonspiro
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml




From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 00:01:43 2006
From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:01:43 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] Re:Suse 10.1 & 10.2 kernel versions
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A3188C.6000003@rogers.com> <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <44A469E7.5070800@rogers.com>

> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse
> http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/7615

Handy sites, thanks :) I wanted to find out if they were at 2.6.17 yet.
--
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From ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 00:14:18 2006
From: ralphellis1-VsqqI1RANlEsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ralph Ellis)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:14:18 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] Re:Suse 10.1 & 10.2 kernel versions
In-Reply-To: <44A469E7.5070800-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <44A3188C.6000003@rogers.com> <BAYC1-PASMTP013BF0F200E03399572AC8B27C0@CEZ.ICE> <44A469E7.5070800@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <200606292014.18263.ralphellis1@netscape.ca>

On Thursday 29 June 2006 20:01, Byron Sonne wrote:
> > http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse
> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/7615
>
> Handy sites, thanks :) I wanted to find out if they were at 2.6.17 yet.
> --
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The 2.6.16.20 kernel is the latest out so far that I have seen.

http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/suse/

I have tried it and it works well. You just have to reinstall and proprietary 
ATI or nVidia drivers after upgrading.
Ralph Ellis
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 02:30:22 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:30:22 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <20060629234510.GA988-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060629234510.GA988@wp.magstar.net>
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606291930v53258cb9i94545efa22accb30@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 06:09:51PM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> > I have a external USB hard drive with 2 partitions (sda1 -swap, sda2
> > -ext3) that I regularly attach to my main box as a backup drive.
> > Today, when I attached this external drive it states it has a "unknown
> > partition table" and refuses to mount.
> ...
> > Jun 29 17:38:42 kambei kernel:   Vendor: WDC WD16  Model: 00JB-00GVA0
>
> From top of my head:
>     1. WDC -- good life lesson here.
>     2. bad USB enclosure -- take the harddisk out of USB enclosure, and
>             connect directly to IDE cable.

I have bought several Western Digital drives in the last few years
with no problems... until today, that is. :-)

What drives manufacterer would you recommend?

I think this drive is toast. This is what I get from gpart:

~$ gpart /dev/sda

Begin scan...
Possible partition(Linux swap), size(486mb), offset(0mb)

* Warning: short read near sector(1760409), 36864 bytes instead of
66048. Skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(1760481), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(1760544), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(1760607), skipping...

* Warning: short read near sector(5103828), 39424 bytes instead of
66048. Skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(5103905), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(5103968), skipping...

* Warning: short read near sector(275035595), 39936 bytes instead of
66048. Skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(275035673), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(275035736), skipping...

* Warning: short read near sector(290522207), 37888 bytes instead of
66048. Skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(290522281), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(290522344), skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(290522407), skipping...

* Warning: short read near sector(311186155), 39936 bytes instead of
66048. Skipping...

* Warning: read error (EIO) near sector(311186233), skipping...
End scan.

Checking partitions...
Partition(Linux swap or Solaris/x86): primary
Ok.

Guessed primary partition table:
Primary partition(1)
type: 130(0x82)(Linux swap or Solaris/x86)
size: 486mb #s(995960) s(63-996022)
chs:  (0/1/1)-(61/254/56)d (0/1/1)-(61/254/56)r

Primary partition(2)
type: 000(0x00)(unused)
size: 0mb #s(0) s(0-0)
chs:  (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)d (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)r

Primary partition(3)
type: 000(0x00)(unused)
size: 0mb #s(0) s(0-0)
chs:  (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)d (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)r

Primary partition(4)
type: 000(0x00)(unused)
size: 0mb #s(0) s(0-0)
chs:  (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)d (0/0/0)-(0/0/0)r

This drive had 2 primary partitions on it - gpart correctly noted that
sda1 was a swap partition, but fails to see that sda2 was a ext3
partition. Plus all those read errors.
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 02:33:03 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:33:03 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0606291647of9a99c0qd9556db04543b01e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291530p2b31b353m22b91b0844f13784@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291548q6e74e1eel6a0b2607317e7849@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291611u6f4c925eo4bf2559601afb7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291630h4570890bw9733175028b319d0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291647of9a99c0qd9556db04543b01e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606291933k686108ffn64fd51ff5268f4e7@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Daniel Armstrong <dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > But I wonder... is this "unknown partition table" an indication the
> > drive is failing? I will have to investigate some diagnostic tools for
> > checking hard drive health.
> >
> SMART is a nonintrusive way. smart-monitor can warn you of bad SMART
> test results. Or smartmontools, if you want a tool you can use
> interactively. Or your PC's BIOS might show the results of a SMART
> check at every boot.

I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip, along with alerting me to gpart.
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From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 03:07:21 2006
From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:07:21 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291933k686108ffn64fd51ff5268f4e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com> <c241693f0606291647of9a99c0qd9556db04543b01e@mail.gmail.com> <61e9e2b10606291933k686108ffn64fd51ff5268f4e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606292307.21614.jason@detachednetworks.ca>

On Thursday 29 June 2006 22:33, Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> On 6/29/06, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On 6/29/06, Daniel Armstrong <dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > But I wonder... is this "unknown partition table" an indication the
> > > drive is failing? I will have to investigate some diagnostic tools for
> > > checking hard drive health.
> >
> > SMART is a nonintrusive way. smart-monitor can warn you of bad SMART
> > test results. Or smartmontools, if you want a tool you can use
> > interactively. Or your PC's BIOS might show the results of a SMART
> > check at every boot.
>
> I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip, along with alerting me to gpart.
> --

To use gparted, try the gparted livecd
http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php

Data recovery is one of the main things we do.
http://www.detachednetworks.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=28

As suggested, if possible connect the drive directly to a pc through an IDE 
cable in order to eliminate the possibility that your USB case is damaged.

I will also recommend running the diagnostics utility from your drive 
manufacturer before running gparted.
For a western digital drive, download & burn the following ISO image.
http://support.wdc.com/download/dlg/Diag504cCD.iso

One more thing to note. If the drive is failing, and you want to attempt to 
get the files back off of the drive, then run it as little as possible. Also 
open or remove the drive from the USB case to allow for better ventilation in 
order to dissipate heat.

-- 
Jason Shein
Director of Networking, Operations and Systems
Detached Networks
jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org
( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice
( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile
http://www.detachednetworks.ca

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From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 05:11:41 2006
From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 01:11:41 -0400
Subject: [OT] VoIP recommendations
In-Reply-To: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <adbefcbf0606292211h52d41d4dpfccd08017ae3f08c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Strangely, I just confirmed that the Rogers wireless internet access
> is unmetered for business users, and I'm strongly thinking of jumping
> ship so that I can also discard the phone service and get VoIP of some
> kind.
>
> So what all is out there?  The last time I checked, Skype didn't have
> inbound numbers for Canada.  =/
>
> What's particularly easy to use, requiring no computer?  Standalone
> boxes are interesting enough that I'd like to learn about what's out
> there.

Rogers Home Phone:

http://www.shoprogers.com/store/cable/rhp/default.asp

-Steve.
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From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 06:33:14 2006
From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:33:14 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <200606292307.21614.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <c241693f0606291647of9a99c0qd9556db04543b01e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <61e9e2b10606291933k686108ffn64fd51ff5268f4e7@mail.gmail.com>
	 <200606292307.21614.jason@detachednetworks.ca>
Message-ID: <61e9e2b10606292333i10386fd5pad487a7d021e4562@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/06, Jason Shein <jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> As suggested, if possible connect the drive directly to a pc through an IDE
> cable in order to eliminate the possibility that your USB case is damaged.
>
> I will also recommend running the diagnostics utility from your drive
> manufacturer before running gparted.
> For a western digital drive, download & burn the following ISO image.
> http://support.wdc.com/download/dlg/Diag504cCD.iso

I removed the drive from the external USB case and connected it to the
IDE cable, but the problem of "unknown partition table" persists.

I downloaded the Western Digital diagnostics iso and ran a full test -
returned a result of no errors found.

The data on this problematic drive exists on other drives, so I am
going to go ahead and use cfdisk to re-partition the drive and see how
that works out.

Thanks for the suggestions!
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 06:55:02 2006
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:55:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] VoIP recommendations
In-Reply-To: <adbefcbf0606292211h52d41d4dpfccd08017ae3f08c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769@mail.gmail.com>
 <adbefcbf0606292211h52d41d4dpfccd08017ae3f08c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606300240090.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>

| From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
| 
| On 6/28/06, Sy Ali <sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

| > So what all is out there?  The last time I checked, Skype didn't have
| > inbound numbers for Canada.  =/
| > 
| > What's particularly easy to use, requiring no computer?  Standalone
| > boxes are interesting enough that I'd like to learn about what's out
| > there.
| 
| Rogers Home Phone:
| 
| http://www.shoprogers.com/store/cable/rhp/default.asp

That service probably works well at emulating Bell service at a modest
discount.  Probably an eminently reasonable choice.

But...

You are just trading one monopoly for another.  As I understand it,
the Rogers offering does not use ordinary IP over your cable modem.
It has a dedicated datapath that no other company can access.

If you really want to play with disruptive technology (and bleed a bit
in the process), go for true VoIP, preferably one that follows
standards.  That means: SIP (or IAX).  Not Skype (proprietary
non-disclosed protocol).

Asterisk is cool.  You still need something the bridge the IP and PSTN
(telephone) worlds.  That's what Skype-out is.  That's what Vonnage is
(if you strip out the crap).  I like Unlimitel.ca.  Vbuzzer might be
OK.  One of the important things about VoIP is that you have a wide choice 
of competitive suppliers.

I still have a POTS line (Plain Old Telephone Service).  Really old:
pulse dial, not touchtone.  It is a *lot* more reliable than my
internet connections, even without considering the reliability of
the things layered on top.  It is also a lot more reliable than mobile
phones.

But I'm following VoIP and have deployed it once.

TAUG is an interesting and vibrant group.
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From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 09:17:57 2006
From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:17:57 -0500
Subject: [OT] VoIP recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606300240090.4774-phKd+DpA3E7v+jA/tZBGeEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
References: <1e55af990606282029w1f8f6df1waa0d42540a54d769@mail.gmail.com>
	 <adbefcbf0606292211h52d41d4dpfccd08017ae3f08c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.61.0606300240090.4774@redshift.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <1e55af990606300217ocf5de44g969b01e7c2c71d5a@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the reocmmendations so far.  It looks like I may go for
Wireless Nomad[1] for my internet connection.

I'd rather avoid Rogers' phone.  For various reasons, but mostly
because it's horiffically expensive and has no options to speak of.
i.e. it has _all_ "options" and no choice in the matter.  I looked at
them a while back.. looked through what they were doing.  Decided
against them.

I don't need to particularly care about reliability past a certain
functional point.  I don't use my phone much.  Maybe a few times a
month to be honest.  So it seems silly for me to have one that's
"always on" and to be paying for that privaledge.  I may just get a
voicemail box of some kind and some sort of skypeout functionality.


[1] http://www.wirelessnomad.com
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 14:53:26 2006
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:53:26 -0400
Subject: Resolved: was Re:OT: Looking for laptop batteries
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP034922CF4FB9F555077919AD7B0-NW7P6tAEKYY@public.gmane.org>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP034922CF4FB9F555077919AD7B0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <44A53AE6.805@alteeve.com>

lfeder wrote:
> 
> Dundas/Church. 
> Right across from the Tiger Express is a dude that replaces the batteries
> from dead laptop units/camcorders/ipods etc.
> 
> Very reasonable.  $65 for your battery with new batteries in it.

Thanks for the advice, but I was looking for new. I ended up going to 
"RouterSale" (http://store.247computersale.com/), a small company on 
O'Conner where the owner was pretty nice. I got the 6600mAh one and it's 
working great (it's a Hong Kong knock-off though, which I expected for 
the price).

Madison
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From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 21:12:32 2006
From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:12:32 -0400
Subject: unknown partition table
In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <61e9e2b10606291509t1c476817g73b899e8901eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A593C0.4060508@interlog.com>

Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> Does starting with a zero table mean I lose all data on the disk? How
> would I recover the previous partition table? Thanks for any help!

It usually means you have lost all the data on the disk unless you know 
*exactly* what the partition table settings were before. If you know the old 
settings, you might be able to reset the table and regain access to your data.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172        |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus:
                                   |  Try to assimilate the world!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite>   |              -Pinkutus & the Borg
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 30 23:49:38 2006
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:49:38 -0400
Subject: Webcam recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20060621130904.GC9728-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20060621104954.GA23280@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060621130904.GC9728@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20060630234938.GA31554@ettin.watson-wilson.ca>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 09:09:04AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 06:49:54AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
>> I'm looking for a web cam.  Must have USB interface, work with Linux and
>> have the ability to store pictures, unattended, when movement occurs.
>> Can anyone offer a recommendation?
>
>Motion detection and storage is your computer/software's problem, not
>the webcam.

OK.  What make and model of webcam have people successfully used with
Linux?

-- 
Neil Watson             | Gentoo Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 29 days
http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
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