From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 04:51:24 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:51:24 -0500 Subject: April TUX Magazine Message-ID: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan for their respective contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks guys! Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 09:58:09 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 04:58:09 -0500 Subject: [OT: Humor] Worst tech of 2006 (so far) Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604010158r6ff94cb1vccdeacbf75c7608d@mail.gmail.com> A CNET Top 10 list: http://www.cnet.com/4520-11524-6478472.html?tag=cnetfd.sd Kinda funny that I learned about the device described in entry #9 from a TLUG'ger not too long ago. =) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 10:15:16 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 05:15:16 -0500 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <20060331185420.5d0e3b42.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <20060331185420.5d0e3b42.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604010215i5d7b7ef9l2d48d696324c39af@mail.gmail.com> On 3/31/06, JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:24:10 -0500 > Scott Elcomb got an infinite number of monkeys to type out: > > > "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" lol. > This from a country that has consistently violated every single document it's > ever signed, from it's own constitution to treaties to trade agreements to arms > control agreements to, etc. etc. > > Microsoft has a good friend in that bunch of gangster thugs. > > Sorry, I know this is about MS, but my sense of irony went off like a > clarion ;-) > > The bad news is, the EU will probably kowtow (sp?), but the *great* news is > the US, and MS, are rapidly losing ground where the growth is strongest: Latin > America and Asia. > > Bye bye MS, bye bye US. Good riddance. I've no problem with Windows (besides the standard security concerns). My problem is with the Leadership at MicroSoft. Gates and his company have done a lot for getting computer technology to the masses. Unfortunately, it gave them big heads. As far as the US thing goes, I also just found this: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/31/senate.censure.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest These are "volatile" times methinks. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 10:25:55 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 11:25:55 +0100 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, Paul Scott Elcomb wrote: >(Gotta love RSS) > >"U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" > >http://tinyurl.com/g34ja >http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/business/worldbusiness/31soft.html?ex=1301461200&en=ff316e2e5a416a24&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > >When will it stop? > >-- >Scott Elcomb >psema4.gotdns.com > >"A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be >peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care >enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a >revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We >can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." > > - John F. Kennedy >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- http://www.zleap.net http://www.openoffice.org http://www.linux.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.1 GIT d S: a C+++ UL++++ P+ L++ W++ N+ W--- O! V! PS+ Y! t+++ 5 X+++ R tv- b- DI! D++ G e H! r! z? -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK---- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 12:25:03 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 07:25:03 -0500 Subject: Slashdot for Linuxchix? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604010425u19e78735t3c1a06113d64ad15@mail.gmail.com> Heheh. Where's the Ladies at? =) http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/31/1644225 http://www.linuxchix.org/ -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 14:33:34 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 09:33:34 -0500 Subject: Slashdot for Linuxchix? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604010425u19e78735t3c1a06113d64ad15-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604010425u19e78735t3c1a06113d64ad15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <442E8F3E.6070900@alteeve.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > Heheh. Where's the Ladies at? =) > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/31/1644225 > http://www.linuxchix.org/ That's a neat page, thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 19:23:07 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 14:23:07 -0500 Subject: slowwness at boot (hours) In-Reply-To: <1143832612.3542.25.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060331190616.10174.qmail@web88010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1143832612.3542.25.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> Message-ID: <200604011423.07943.marc@lijour.net> On March 31, 2006 02:16 pm, John Van Ostrand wrote: > On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 11:06 -0800, Matthew Godycki wrote: > > I'm going to guess that you're experiencing hardware failure. > > The only times I've ever seen slow reading disk drives and > > otherwise erratic behaviour like you describe has been when > > I've had hard drives fail. > > The other option is that the file system is still a little mangled. I'd > try a forced fscsk > > fsck -f /dev/blah > > And see if it finds anything wrong. Plenty of things go wrong. I asked to fix it each time, but it does not seem to reach a fix point. I play it again and it finds new errors. Is the hard drive dying? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 21:08:44 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:08:44 -0500 Subject: Riddle me this ... Message-ID: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 21:24:10 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:24:10 -0500 Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org> References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <442EEF7A.9010504@rogers.com> Paul King wrote: > I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ > > This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this > supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. > > That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. IPv6 IP addresses are in hex format e.g.11:22:33:44:55:66:77:88... etc, for 128 bits. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 22:22:51 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 17:22:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org> References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: | From: Paul King | I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ | | This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this | supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. | | That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. Linux man pages are a bit embarrassing. They don't accurately describe what the code does or is supposed to do. This should be described in inet_addr(3) but it isn't. Go to a BSD manual or the Single UNIX(R) Secification: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xns/inet_addr.html Values specified using dot notation take one of the following forms: a.b.c.d When four parts are specified, each is interpreted as a byte of data and assigned, from left to right, to the four bytes of an Internet address. a.b.c When a three-part address is specified, the last part is interpreted as a 16-bit quantity and placed in the rightmost two bytes of the network address. This makes the three-part address format convenient for specifying Class B network addresses as 128.net.host. a.b When a two-part address is supplied, the last part is interpreted as a 24-bit quantity and placed in the rightmost three bytes of the network address. This makes the two-part address format convenient for specifying Class A network addresses as net.host. a When only one part is given, the value is stored directly in the network address without any byte rearrangement. All numbers supplied as parts in dot notation may be decimal, octal, or hexadecimal, as specified in the ISO C standard (that is, a leading 0x or 0X implies hexadecimal; otherwise, a leading 0 implies octal; otherwise, the number is interpreted as decimal). If I were dictator, I'd require the a.b.c.d form. All others are so rarely used that they are confusing. And I'd require each component to be decimal. Spammers use these obscure forms to disguise what they are doing. Ping treats this number as an IP address too, and reports which one in the dotted quad form: $ ping 1121829475 Warning: no SO_TIMESTAMP support, falling back to SIOCGSTAMP PING 1121829475 (66.221.194.99) from 192.139.70.107 : 56(84) bytes of data. Interestingly, "dig -x 1121829475" does the wrong thing: $ dig -x 1121829475 ... ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;1121829475.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ... The correct QUESTION SECTION would be: ;99.194.221.66.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 22:24:12 2006 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:24:12 -0500 Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org> References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <442EFD8C.2040909@buynet.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul King wrote: > I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ > > This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this > supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. I've allways thought that the 1121829475 would be the decimal equivalent of the 4 diget base 256 number or: 66 x 256^3 = 1107296256 + 221 x 256^2 = 14483456 + 194 x 256^1 = 49664 + 166 x 256^0 = 166 = 1121829542 ...I don't know where the extra 67 comes from ;-) > That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. > > Paul King > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFELv2MU+pQaeEFGGARAunEAJdyR7ifoA6ikv5m42FmKrGv3sNpAJ9lTf+c pK6rUc1il640RKKh3/KNrw== =SWRe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 22:27:33 2006 From: shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Vlad) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 17:27:33 -0500 Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <442EEF7A.9010504-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> <442EEF7A.9010504@rogers.com> Message-ID: That is NOT an IPv6 address. I... won't explain why, lest I end up flaming James. IPv4 addresses can be converted into a "base 10" number; that is, one that doesn't use octets. See: http://www.network-tools.com/help/ ; scroll down a bit for an explanation and example. Of how that encoding format works. Cheers, --Vlad On 4/1/06, James Knott wrote: > Paul King wrote: > > I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ > > > > This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this > > supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. > > > > That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. > > IPv6 IP addresses are in hex format e.g.11:22:33:44:55:66:77:88... etc, > for 128 bits. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- end -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 22:46:07 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:46:07 -0500 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <442E5533.4090200-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> Paul Sutton wrote: > Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the > UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, > We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to assert British independence from America. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 23:01:00 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 18:01:00 -0500 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <442F02AF.2000303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> Message-ID: <442F062C.2010500@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Paul Sutton wrote: > >> Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the >> UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, >> We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, > > > To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to > assert British independence from America. I hear they're even going to have a tea party. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 1 23:15:46 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 18:15:46 -0500 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <442F02AF.2000303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604011515n4f3f2c1dj90b6c2115c7baf25@mail.gmail.com> On 4/1/06, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Paul Sutton wrote: > > > Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the > > UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, > > We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, > > > To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to > assert British independence from America. Isn't it though? Maybe it's 'cause I'm from Hamilton and all, but the last time I checked, Canadians (when they were Brit's) where the only people to EVER sack Washington. Heheh. =) In all seriousness though, the US has lots of bright folks. It's simply awful that so much greed has worked it's way into Capitalism. The balance is off. For what it's worth, the FSF and the EFF are beacons for me - kinda like the CN Tower, just nobody seems to remember. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 01:30:39 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 20:30:39 -0500 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Just curious if anyone out there has an opinion. I joined the TLUG list back in '04 with the question "What is the status of Open Source in Canada?" Jury's still out on that question, but _there are_ some Countries who take FOSS and related topics seriously. Amongst those I'd consider "in-tune" are the Netherlands, Germany, Australia, and Britain. Gotta include the U.S. - regardless of the U.S. Federal Governments' stance on things, a great number of U.S. citizens (and some States) undertand and support FOSS. So in the end, where is Canada in the scheme of things? How can we do better? -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 04:09:50 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 23:09:50 -0500 Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> <442EEF7A.9010504@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200604012309.50877.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Saturday 01 April 2006 17:27, Vlad wrote: > That is NOT an IPv6 address. I... won't explain why, lest I > end up flaming James. > > IPv4 addresses can be converted into a "base 10" number; that > is, one that doesn't use octets. > > See: http://www.network-tools.com/help/ ; scroll down a bit > for an explanation and example. Of how that encoding format works. > > Cheers, > > --Vlad There is an online conversion tool here that works in both directions. http://www.kloth.net/services/iplocate.php If I input the address in question ( 1121829475 ) its output is as follows: The conversion result: IP dotted quad IP decimal IP hex IP Binary 66.221.194.99 1121829475 42DDC263 01000010 11011101 11000010 01100011 Reverse DNS lookup on host 66.221.194.99: Host 99.194.221.66.in-addr.arpa not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 04:55:27 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 20:55:27 -0800 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/1/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > So in the end, where is Canada in the scheme of things? How can we do > better? Canada falls out of a history involving all of the important things in the economy (entertainingly, beer would be near the top of the list ;-)) being produced by enterprises belonging to a small number of affluent families. Historical aside: It is interesting to observe that there are only a couple of names named as afiliated with the Family Compact, typically Bishop Strachan and John Simcoe. Doubtless the likes of the Molsons and Labatts were amongst them. For all that this supposedly ended in 1838, it's quite interesting that Canada remains a nation of a goodly number of family billionaires. The formal control of the government by the Family Compact may have ended, but the nation remains one dominated by very large companies and with remarkably conservative economic attitudes, local attitudes towards particular political parties aside. All four federal parties are oriented to a favoring of big, entrenched businesses, albeit with varying flavours of preference. None of them, and only a paucity of the country's population, have any reason to oppose the sorts of things that DRM-heavy companies whether Microsoft, Sony, or buddies of the movie and recording distribution apparatuses of the world. We do have "opposition activists" movements, but they haven't been oriented to economically-abstract things like "free software," but rather: a) Opposition to things American for the purpose of trying to distinguish us from Americans; b) Social policies, notably over "human rights" issues surrounding sexual matters (e.g. - reproductive choices and sexual orientation) Our governments prefer to sell things, particularly when budgets are tight. - They have been quite amenable to the desires of DRM-type folk. - You don't have free access to mapping data, as is the case in the US; you gotta pay royalties for a license to use it. - Traditionally, things like software produced by the US government is implicitly in the public domain; there may be exceptions, but there's quite a lot of stuff like NETLIB that is "public domain." There is no Canadian equivalent to this tradition... - Databases are commonly considered proprietary, whether that be Stats Can data or postal code lists, where the US treats that sort of thing as being more or less "public domain." I don't think there's any existing large group that could be harnessed as a natural constitency to oppose the ills that are involved. Stepping back to the beginning, when names that predate Confederation like Molson and Labatt are still prominent, and when we have the ongoing Lord Black issue, I'm not sure there's reason to believe that the Family Compact ever died off, when families are still there... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 05:34:41 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 08:34:41 +0300 (IDT) Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604011515n4f3f2c1dj90b6c2115c7baf25-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> <99a6c38f0604011515n4f3f2c1dj90b6c2115c7baf25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Apr 2006, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to >> assert British independence from America. I am curious what the 21th century version of a Boston tea party looks like. Probably an exchange of classified emails followed by a vow by the relevant leaders never to play golf together again, and a little harder visa regime at the borders. Oh wait, they are doing the visa thing now, no ? > In all seriousness though, the US has lots of bright folks. It's > simply awful that so much greed has worked it's way into Capitalism. > The balance is off. I think that the greed is sort of built into Capitalism, and that's the way it's supposed to be. It's the 'Demos' in democracy that is thin and far between. > For what it's worth, the FSF and the EFF are beacons for me - kinda > like the CN Tower, just nobody seems to remember. The problem I see with this is, that the people to whom these beacons are thorns do remember them all the time. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tarverator-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 05:59:48 2006 From: tarverator-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Tarver) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 21:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060402055948.51019.qmail@web50213.mail.yahoo.com> If you are on this list, I would answer: "Keep doing what you are doing, and vote Green." http://www.linux.ca/drupal/node/34 http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/01/18/1556238&tid=136 Cheers, --Tarver Everything is the way it is because it got that way. ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott Elcomb [snip] How can we do better? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 08:56:16 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 04:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | Canada falls out of a history involving all of the important things in | the economy (entertainingly, beer would be near the top of the list | ;-)) being produced by enterprises belonging to a small number of | affluent families. | | | Historical aside: It is interesting to observe that there are only a | couple of names named as afiliated with the Family Compact, typically | Bishop Strachan and John Simcoe. Doubtless the likes of the Molsons | and Labatts were amongst them. Actually, no. The Family Compact was mostly folks in York (now known as Toronto). It was an Upper Canada institution. Molson was from Montreal. Labatt was from London, Ontario, and didn't found his brewery until after the era of the Family Compact. Not Simcoe. He left town in 1796. Wikipedia says that the FC (Fedora Core?) didn't start until after the War of 1812. If you want to know the names of Family Compact members, wander around down town, south of the U of T, looking at street signs. I'm would guess Henry, McCaul, Beverly, Baldwin, Sullivan, and so on were members (but not Dundas, Yonge, Queen, St. George). None of this really changes your argument. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 10:33:29 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 05:33:29 -0500 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> On 4/1/06, Christopher Browne wrote: [...] > None of them, and only a paucity of the country's population, have any > reason to oppose the sorts of things that DRM-heavy companies whether > Microsoft, Sony, or buddies of the movie and recording distribution > apparatuses of the world. Sure we need economic infrastructure, but DRM is posion. Just like the rest of the minefield that is Intellectual Property. And that paucity thing needs to change. C-60? C-78? (both from the last parliament) http://www.onlinerights.ca/ > I don't think there's any existing large group that could be harnessed > as a natural constitency to oppose the ills that are involved. There is one - the citizens. What I mean hear is that we have enabling technology. We have problem solvers, students, teachers, business, everybody on the net. Harnessing the mind of a nation is an engineering problem, so it's not insurmountable. > Stepping back to the beginning, when names that predate Confederation > like Molson and Labatt are still prominent, and when we have the > ongoing Lord Black issue, I'm not sure there's reason to believe that > the Family Compact ever died off, when families are still there... Then maybe some of the usually quieter families need to stand up. Oh wait, they're all blogging. =) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 11:00:23 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 06:00:23 -0500 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402055948.51019.qmail-Ch0+YJVTF0KA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <20060402055948.51019.qmail@web50213.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604020400t5e3a15a2v7afd9c0c90ffb990@mail.gmail.com> On 4/2/06, Tarver wrote: > If you are on this list, I would answer: "Keep doing what you are doing, and vote Green." I hope I'm on this list. If not then it's time for a trip to the doctor's office. lol. Will do and will do. =) Found the Greens had things to say about FOSS back during the 2004 election. It'll be interesting to watch the party's leadership race: http://newsletter.greenparty.ca/Media_Release/ -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 11:41:41 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 07:41:41 -0400 Subject: Riddle me this ... In-Reply-To: <442EEF7A.9010504-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <442EA58C.21638.F60B647@pking123.sympatico.ca> <442EEF7A.9010504@rogers.com> Message-ID: <442FB875.1070704@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Paul King wrote: >> I recently got a spam that had a link whose host was: http://1121829475/ >> >> This actually led to an Internet site (http://www.lttnetsolutions.com/). Is this >> supposed to be the new format for ipv6? nslookup gives its IP as 66.221.194.166. >> >> That has got to be the strangest URL I have seen. > > IPv6 IP addresses are in hex format e.g.11:22:33:44:55:66:77:88... etc, > for 128 bits. > Sorry, that should have been 1111:2222:3333:4444... etc. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 13:23:26 2006 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> > > Harnessing the mind of a nation is an engineering problem, so it's not > insurmountable. Hilarious! I know I'm among kindred spirits when a quote like this makes sense to me. Scott, I believe that conditions change for the better in other countries because a group of citizens form a successful lobby group, and after a campaign of public awareness and letter-writing, for example, they successfully influence policy. Waiting for the Green Party to make it into office is a fool's game: I like them as well as anyone but in Canada we're in for a long wait. Much better to rally the support of as many like-minded individuals as we can, and start a foundation, a Canadian FSF for example. It's not rocket science: - A small group of us would act as organizers and strategists. - We would decide on a course of action that would result in us achieving our goals. - The majority of the membership would assist in getting those actions accomplished. Simple, right? I don't know if an organization like that already exists (frankly, I was merely taken with Scott's analysis of the situation this morning, so I haven't done research), but if so, they are clearly not doing their job! We have, on this list, some of the smartest people anywhere. It would be a shame if we couldn't harness that group intelligence to do some good for our society. Cheers, Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 13:38:50 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 09:38:50 -0400 Subject: slowwness at boot (hours) In-Reply-To: <200604011423.07943.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060331190616.10174.qmail@web88010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1143832612.3542.25.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <200604011423.07943.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <1143985131.25785.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 14:23 -0500, Marc Lijour wrote: > Plenty of things go wrong. I asked to fix it each time, but it does not seem > to reach a fix point. I play it again and it finds new errors. > > Is the hard drive dying? With older Unix we had to run fsck multiple times until it ran clean. I don't think that is necessarily the case here. First get a backup if you can. Run dmesg, if the hard disk is dying you should see messages regarding your disks or your RAID card. Checkout smartd, it can give more detailed information about your disks. Also go the mfg's web site and grab their disk testing tool. If the disk looks good it may be that the file system is mangled in such a way that it can't be fixed, basically a bug in the fs driver. I've seen this before. I would also give the system a work out in any way that you can. Run memtest86 for memory. Use whatever tools you have at hand to verify CPU and cache. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 14:01:55 2006 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:01:55 -0400 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <442F02AF.2000303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060402140154.GC19035@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 05:46:07PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Paul Sutton wrote: > > >Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the > >UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, > >We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, > > > To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to > assert British independence from America. And I bet they throw a tea party as part of their operations. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 13:51:57 2006 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> > How to apply: > Please send a detailed CV with photo That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's picture? The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like employers asking for photos in a job application, see: http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp Quote: --- Subject: Photographs Avoid asking: * for photo to be attached to applications or sent to interviewer before interview --- Fernando > and 3 email > contacts for > references, by e-mail to > andrew.emili-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org - subject line "TLUG: > Application for Linux > Systems Administrator Position" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 14:18:52 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <442E06CC.2080606-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan > for their respective > contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks > guys! Thanks for the kind words. In looking through the issue I noticed the "Gadget Guy" article is by a Sean Carruthers, who according to the mini-biography is "a freelance technology journalist from Toronto". This is not a name I am familiar with, is he on the list here, and just been keeping a LOW profile? Or is this someone we should encourage to join the list? Or is the above note the literal truth, but not the whole truth (i.e.: I could say I am from Burlington, Ontario, even though I have not lived there since age 8), and has no interest in things in Toronto? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 15:07:11 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:07:11 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <20060402141852.57266.qmail-2K+iNxKRQwOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: He writes for Hub Canada. IIRC, Toronto Computes / The Computer Paper had been getting thinner and thinner over the years and finally decided some time ago to stop publishing tabloid-size newspapers and to put out a very thin, full-color magazine-size paper instead. The new format focuses much more on gadgets and less on computing. Good publication, but IMO not enough Linux coverage. :) Jason 2006/4/2, Colin McGregor : > --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan > > for their respective > > contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks > > guys! > > Thanks for the kind words. > > In looking through the issue I noticed the "Gadget > Guy" article is by a Sean Carruthers, who according to > the mini-biography is "a freelance technology > journalist from Toronto". This is not a name I am > familiar with, is he on the list here, and just been > keeping a LOW profile? Or is this someone we should > encourage to join the list? Or is the above note the > literal truth, but not the whole truth (i.e.: I could > say I am from Burlington, Ontario, even though I have > not lived there since age 8), and has no interest in > things in Toronto? > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 15:30:51 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 11:30:51 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <442FEE2B.6000708@rogers.com> Jason Spiro wrote: > He writes for Hub Canada. > > IIRC, Toronto Computes / The Computer Paper had been getting thinner > and thinner over the years and finally decided some time ago to stop > publishing tabloid-size newspapers and to put out a very thin, > full-color magazine-size paper instead. The new format focuses much > more on gadgets and less on computing. Good publication??? At free, it's over priced. ;-) A friend often brings copies of it. I don't even bother glancing through it, even though I used to read Toronto Computes and The Computer Paper. > Good publication, but IMO not enough Linux coverage. :) It also doesn't have enough OS/2 coverage. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 16:44:01 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 12:44:01 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: >Just curious if anyone out there has an opinion. > >I joined the TLUG list back in '04 with the question "What is the status of Open Source in Canada?" > > Much the same as it is in most countries. Some are worse, some are better. >Jury's still out on that question, but _there are_ some Countries who take FOSS and related topics seriously. > > At a governmental level, there are very few countries who actually promote open source as public policy. Brazil, Cuba, China and Malaysia come to mind. In most countries the struggle is simply to achieve a balanced playing field, to not give any specific advantage to open source but to reduce the obstacles of inertia and monopoly power. There are not many countries with policies continuing to actively favour proprietary models; many of these are third-world countries who are the recipients -- directly or indirectly -- of software vendor largesse. And then there's Ireland, which publicly champions the proprietary-vendor case within Europe. >Amongst those I'd consider "in-tune" are the Netherlands, Germany, Australia, and Britain. > I'd say that those are countries in which the level playing field is better established, you can add to that Japan and France... but none have taken the leap to assert that using open source is good for society. I'm also curious to know why you would include Britain, which I personally would not have put on an "in-tune"list; I'd put Britain about even with Canada on this issue, maybe even a bit behind. >Gotta include the U.S. - regardless of the U.S. Federal Governments' stance on things, a great number of U.S. citizens (and some States) undertand and support FOSS. > > You mean the country that gave the world the DMCA, and used politics as a lever through WIPO to force similar tactics on the rest of the world? Please. Another email thread on this list speaks of the US government intervention on behalf of Microsoft at the EU. >So in the end, where is Canada in the scheme of things? > In Canada, as elsewhere, there is good and bad. Some public jurisdictions are very hospitable to open source (Qu?bec, Manitoba), some are hostile (Ontario), and some are at various levels of acceptance if not support. Industry Canada has gone from opposition to acceptance and that job isn't over yet. Canada has many things to be proud of in the world of open source. It is the home of OpenBSD, and the Xandros development team. The previous owner of Xandros, Corel, was the first company to promote Linux through the sponsorship of international sport. It is the centre of a significant amount of software development, and was one of the key countries in producing security related projects such as Feeswan (and again, OpenBSD). One of the first commercial-grade apps for Linux was an accounting system by Alberta-based Linux Canada, it's got to be a decade old by now. Canada is the home of OLS, one of the world's three major Linux technical conferences along with LinuxTag and linux.conf.au and the only one of its kind in North America. Long before IBM and HP caught wind, one of the world's first publicly-known enterprise early adopters of Linux was Canadian National Railways. Canadian LUGs, co-ordinated by CLUE, organized the world's first National Installfest. Canada is birthplace and stil home of the Linux Professional Institute, an internationally-recognized institution bringing together grassroots and coroprate support. In a survey of open source user groups in Canada started for CLUE, I've found more than 100 active groups (112 at last count and still growing). Given our population that would seem to inducate a fairly active grassroots compared to many countries. (To see my work in progress on this, see http://old.linux.ca/flexinode/table/1) At the government level, Canada is the only G7 country not yet to have implemented the WIPO edicts on strengthening copyright law to enshrine DRM. The bill C-60 that died with the last parliament, while worse than the status quo, was widely regarded as considerably more enlightened than the US DMCA or equivalent EU regulations. And even _that_ may be improved by the new government: http://michaelgeist.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1174&Itemid=85 >How can we do better? > > There is still much to be done. Silliness such as considering the postal code directory proprietary information indicates where the public attitude towards the public domain needs more help. And yet even that has been identified and is slowly being addressed: http://creativecommons.ca/documents/pressrelease.publicdomain_registry.pdf Still, there are many continuing obstacles as the well-funded content and proprietary software industries continue their assault on openness and balance between creator and consumer rights. That is one of the reasons for the changing focus of CLUE, as that group aligns itself to engage in more policy advocacy to deal with that challenge. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 16:16:49 2006 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 12:16:49 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060402135157.66476.qmail-DUzfRPVUikSA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 09:51:57AM -0400, Fernando Duran wrote: > > > How to apply: > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's > picture? > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like > employers asking for photos in a job application, see: > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp But, how do you meet the quota, then? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 17:43:43 2006 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 13:43:43 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <442FFF51.6080904-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 12:44:01PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Long before IBM and HP caught wind, one of the world's first > publicly-known enterprise early adopters of Linux was Canadian > National Railways. How come we never hear about companies using Linux? Is there something about the marketplace which givem them disadventage? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 18:03:09 2006 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:03:09 -0400 Subject: question for TLUGgers Message-ID: <443011DD.1030906@rogers.com> > > >How come we never hear about companies using Linux? Is there something >about the marketplace which givem them disadventage? > With the exceptions of Microsoft and SCO, FUD factories are generally looked upon as illegitimate business expenses. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 18:04:55 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:04:55 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402174343.GA4039-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <44301247.2010605@telly.org> William Park wrote: >How come we never hear about companies using Linux? Is there something >about the marketplace which givem them disadventage? > > Vendors such as IBM do publish success stories. However, the reality is that most companies don't care to call attention to themselves in areas that are not related to their core business. You don't hear about what brand of vehicles FedEx chooses for its fleet even though that is extremely important information in some sectors. CN is a railroad, not an IT company. They stand very little to gain from publicity about their choice of Linux, unless they have a deliberate interest in being seen as an innovator. (And, thanks to the growth of open source, these days using Linux is not the "innovation" it used to be :-) ) The community needs to take the initiative to identify these users. If anyone is interested in helping collect Canadian open source success stories, let me know. There are certainly ways to publicize this. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 18:24:01 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 14:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402174343.GA4039-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <20060402182401.85498.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- William Park wrote: > On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 12:44:01PM -0400, Evan > Leibovitch wrote: > > Long before IBM and HP caught wind, one of the > world's first > > publicly-known enterprise early adopters of Linux > was Canadian > > National Railways. > > How come we never hear about companies using Linux? > Is there something > about the marketplace which givem them disadventage? A number of reason I expect. I spoke to one GTALug regular who works as a consultant. Said consultant noted about one Ontario Government minister who at a meeting claimed his department was an all Microsoft shop. This our consultant friend knew to be wrong as the DNS servers for said department were some old but still serviceable Sun machines running Solaris. Now, if your an information technology guy (or gal) in this minister's department are you going to contradict your boss, or do like keeping your job? I mean it is our job to keep things working at the lowest possible cost, boasting about how you saved $ for the organization is not part of the job description. Some of us do talk about how we saved the organizations $, like I did here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7127 Other situations it may not be in your best interest to talk about how you are saving money. Besides not wanting to contradict a mistaken boss, or not wanting to play PR department, you may not want to talk about open source for other reasons: - Your firm is a partner with a major firm software firm who's good graces you need from a $ standpoint, so talk of Linux could hurt you in $. - You boss is susceptible to pressure from know nothing higher ups, higher ups who would get phone calls from a major software firm if it were known you were not using their products exclusively. - You are in a very cutthroat industry. You want the opposition to think you are spending the $ on commercial software and encourage them to spend similar $ on non-free solutions... There are no doubt other reasons why people don't want to talk open source, suffice it to say there are reasons why some folks don't want to talk open source solutions. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 18:37:03 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:37:03 +0100 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <20060402140154.GC19035-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> <20060402140154.GC19035@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <443019CF.2020204@zen.co.uk> Did not mean any offence. UKIP is about independance from europe not the USA, Paul John Macdonald wrote: >On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 05:46:07PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > >>Paul Sutton wrote: >> >> >> >>>Have forwarded this to my local lug in the UK. May also contact the >>>UKIP (UK Independance party,) who speak out against European policy, >>>We don't want to be dictated to by Europe, and certainly not the US, >>> >>> >>To me, it's downright charming to know that a political party exists to >>assert British independence from America. >> >> > >And I bet they throw a tea party as part of their operations. > > > -- http://www.zleap.net http://www.openoffice.org http://www.linux.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.1 GIT d S: a C+++ UL++++ P+ L++ W++ N+ W--- O! V! PS+ Y! t+++ 5 X+++ R tv- b- DI! D++ G e H! r! z? -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK---- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 18:41:03 2006 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:41:03 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <442D4608.9030605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Kevin Cozens wrote: > >> John Moniz wrote: >> >>> I have a PC I am setting up with FC4 for my son. Initially, I >>> installed RH7.3 (what a great distro). I had yum working and >>> updated/installed a few packages. >> >> [snip] >> >>> I presently have another FC4 machine with the very same version of >>> yum and it works fine, so it shouldn't be the yum version that's the >>> problem. It seems that the problem might be the network, but I don't >>> know what. >>> >>> Any ideas? If I can't get it fixed, it means re-installing FC4 from >>> scratch, then dumping it for another distro if it happens again. >> >> >> Since the machine which has the non-working yum was upgraded from >> RH7.3 I would suggest you take a look at the contents of the >> yum.repos.d directory. The only files in there should be files ending >> in '.repo'. If you have files ending in .rpmsave the yum update >> wasn't complete and needed some manual intervention. > > > You might also check that the repositories listed there are set to > enabled. Open each file and look for the enabled line and make sure > that enabled=1 for each of the core repositories. > > Jamon Hi and thanks for the suggestions. There are no .rpmsave files in the yum.repos.d directory. I also made sure that all repositories listed are set to enabled. They are exacty the same as the repositories on my other system, which does work. I also did a 'yum clean all' As per Tom W.'s suggestion to make sure that the baseurl exists, here's what I think is the baseurl that is causing the problem. There may be others, but it doesn't get passed this one: #baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/ And here is the mirror site listed: mirrorlist=http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/updates-released-fc$releasever What would be the command that would return the value for '$releasever' and '$basearch' so I can check whether it makes sense? I can access the following site, which I would think is the right one: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ I also changed the baseurl line to the above - no luck. Is it possible that, even though I am able to access the internet, yum isn't? Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 19:51:36 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Tom Watts) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 15:51:36 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <44301ABF.5090903-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: John Moniz wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> Kevin Cozens wrote: >> >>> John Moniz wrote: >>> >>>> I have a PC I am setting up with FC4 for my son. Initially, I >>>> installed RH7.3 (what a great distro). I had yum working and >>>> updated/installed a few packages. >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>>> I presently have another FC4 machine with the very same version of >>>> yum and it works fine, so it shouldn't be the yum version that's the >>>> problem. It seems that the problem might be the network, but I don't >>>> know what. >>>> >>>> Any ideas? If I can't get it fixed, it means re-installing FC4 from >>>> scratch, then dumping it for another distro if it happens again. >>> >>> >>> Since the machine which has the non-working yum was upgraded from >>> RH7.3 I would suggest you take a look at the contents of the >>> yum.repos.d directory. The only files in there should be files ending >>> in '.repo'. If you have files ending in .rpmsave the yum update >>> wasn't complete and needed some manual intervention. >> >> >> You might also check that the repositories listed there are set to >> enabled. Open each file and look for the enabled line and make sure >> that enabled=1 for each of the core repositories. >> >> Jamon > > Hi and thanks for the suggestions. > > There are no .rpmsave files in the yum.repos.d directory. I also made > sure that all repositories listed are set to enabled. They are exacty > the same as the repositories on my other system, which does work. I also > did a 'yum clean all' > > As per Tom W.'s suggestion to make sure that the baseurl exists, here's > what I think is the baseurl that is causing the problem. There may be > others, but it doesn't get passed this one: > #baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/ > > And here is the mirror site listed: > mirrorlist=http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/updates-released-fc$releasever > > > What would be the command that would return the value for '$releasever' > and '$basearch' so I can check whether it makes sense? I can access the > following site, which I would think is the right one: > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ > > I also changed the baseurl line to the above - no luck. > > Is it possible that, even though I am able to access the internet, yum > isn't? > > Thanks, > > John. Did you remove the # from the baseurl line? # comments that line, thus ignoring the value of that baseurl...at least to my knowledge, that's what it does. Also, I think you're safe to assume that $releasever and $basearch are returning the correct values. If you're not comfortable with that, by all means, it's safe to just put those values in yourself. Other than uncommenting that line, I'm not sure what else to suggest. Maybe copy the yum.repos.d directory from the machines that work? Good luck. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 21:47:14 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:47:14 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402182401.85498.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> <20060402182401.85498.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060402214714.GA16754@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 02:24:01PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote > I mean it is our job to keep things working at the lowest possible > cost, boasting about how you saved $ for the organization is not > part of the job description. The saving-money argument is probably the way to go. Let's be realistic, the Canadian political future holds Conservative and Liberal governments, not Green Party governments. Selling Open Source as a social movement won't help. Selling it as a cost-cutting measure will perk up ears at both major parties. Where I work (Environment Canada), so far it's been a matter of linux replacing old-fashioned unix. Let's just say that a beefed up PC with 4 gigs of RAM, plus RAID, plus linux comes in way below the cost of an RS6000 running AIX, or an HP server running HPUX. And Exceed has lost at least a few seats to Cygwin. This hasn't been a concious Open Source advocacy; it's been a case of people throughout the organization trying to get their jobs done within the constraints of post-1993 budget cuts. Voters, politicians, and civil servants may not care for a "social movement". Fiscal responsibility and "more bang for the buck", via "Free Software" is something they can comprehend. That's the selling tactic we should use. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 21:49:58 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:49:58 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402174343.GA4039-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <20060402214958.GB16754@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 01:43:43PM -0400, William Park wrote > How come we never hear about companies using Linux? Is there something > about the marketplace which givem them disadventage? Something called privacy. Same thing as you not wanting TV reporters walking up to you with a live camera and asking intimate questions about your sex life. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 22:53:10 2006 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 18:53:10 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <443055D6.4040702@sympatico.ca> Tom Watts wrote: > > > John Moniz wrote: > >> Jamon Camisso wrote: >> >>> Kevin Cozens wrote: >>> >>>> John Moniz wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a PC I am setting up with FC4 for my son. Initially, I >>>>> installed RH7.3 (what a great distro). I had yum working and >>>>> updated/installed a few packages. >>>> >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> I presently have another FC4 machine with the very same version of >>>>> yum and it works fine, so it shouldn't be the yum version that's >>>>> the problem. It seems that the problem might be the network, but I >>>>> don't know what. >>>>> >>>>> Any ideas? If I can't get it fixed, it means re-installing FC4 >>>>> from scratch, then dumping it for another distro if it happens again. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Since the machine which has the non-working yum was upgraded from >>>> RH7.3 I would suggest you take a look at the contents of the >>>> yum.repos.d directory. The only files in there should be files >>>> ending in '.repo'. If you have files ending in .rpmsave the yum >>>> update wasn't complete and needed some manual intervention. >>> >>> >>> >>> You might also check that the repositories listed there are set to >>> enabled. Open each file and look for the enabled line and make sure >>> that enabled=1 for each of the core repositories. >>> >>> Jamon >> >> >> Hi and thanks for the suggestions. >> >> There are no .rpmsave files in the yum.repos.d directory. I also made >> sure that all repositories listed are set to enabled. They are exacty >> the same as the repositories on my other system, which does work. I >> also did a 'yum clean all' >> >> As per Tom W.'s suggestion to make sure that the baseurl exists, >> here's what I think is the baseurl that is causing the problem. There >> may be others, but it doesn't get passed this one: >> #baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/ >> >> And here is the mirror site listed: >> mirrorlist=http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/updates-released-fc$releasever >> >> >> What would be the command that would return the value for >> '$releasever' and '$basearch' so I can check whether it makes sense? >> I can access the following site, which I would think is the right one: >> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ >> >> I also changed the baseurl line to the above - no luck. >> >> Is it possible that, even though I am able to access the internet, >> yum isn't? >> >> Thanks, >> >> John. > > > Did you remove the # from the baseurl line? # comments that line, > thus ignoring the value of that baseurl...at least to my knowledge, > that's what it does. > > Also, I think you're safe to assume that $releasever and $basearch are > returning the correct values. If you're not comfortable with that, by > all means, it's safe to just put those values in yourself. > > Other than uncommenting that line, I'm not sure what else to suggest. > Maybe copy the yum.repos.d directory from the machines that work? > > Good luck. > > Tom Watts > wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Yes, I had tried uncommenting the baseurl line. I think it's suppose to commented out, but here's what happens when I remove it: #yum update Setting up Update Process Setting up repositories http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: Trying other mirror. Cannot open/read repomd.xml file for repository: updates-released failure: repodata/repomd.xml from updates-released: [Errno 256] No more mirrors to try. Error: failure: repodata/repomd.xml from updates-released: [Errno 256] No more mirrors to try. It adds "repodata/repomd.xml" to the end of the url. Really puzzling to me, I guess I don't understand yum. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-ez87/0RVufPQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 22:55:56 2006 From: legrady-ez87/0RVufPQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:55:56 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060402214714.GA16754-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> <20060402182401.85498.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060402214714.GA16754@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <70A2146C-B87A-4383-BBC3-6D32F5511A38@Rogers.com> At Morgan Stanley, it's thousands of IBM Linux blades replacing thousands of Sun departmental servers as they go obsolete. Tom -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 23:12:09 2006 From: shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:12:09 -0500 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604021912.09543.shrike@heinous.org> Same subject, but another thought on it: Why does it matter what software brand our government uses? Sometimes it does, and sometimes it does not. 1. The government in power holds the responsibility to use the money we send the as effeciently as possible. Our job is to police them better and not let the money we earned so hard go to waste. 2. If someone at the government sends you a document you cannot open because it's in a proprietary format, I think you are within your right to require they re-send it in an open format, or the government needs to provide each person a license for the format. Why does it matter what OS some other company chooses? It probably doesn't most of the time. However, I'm all for billing people that send me virus and spam. If I ran an ISP I would be very strict about such things, and would monitor for virus type activity very carefully. I do know some contractors who only provide Linux based services. They seem to be doing just fine here in TO and there is plenty of business. So, this area still isn't doing too badly. -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 23:22:19 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:22:19 -0400 Subject: "U.S. Asks European Union to Be Fair in Microsoft Case" In-Reply-To: <443019CF.2020204-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0603311224va603e43k32b7a8173aa88e5e@mail.gmail.com> <442E5533.4090200@zen.co.uk> <442F02AF.2000303@telly.org> <20060402140154.GC19035@lupus.perlwolf.com> <443019CF.2020204@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <44305CAB.8090903@telly.org> Hi Paul, > Did not mean any offence. None taken. :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 23:27:47 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:27:47 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <200604021912.09543.shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <200604021912.09543.shrike@heinous.org> Message-ID: <44305DF3.7040904@telly.org> Joseph Kubik wrote: >Why does it matter what OS some other company chooses? > Safety in numbers. Now that the obstacles to use of open source are less technical and more political/economic, advocates need to deal with the CYA mentality of managers for whom "safety" is more important than reduced cost or greater flexibility. Having evidence of widespread use of open source in many industries helps confront FUD-based objections that it's too unproven. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 23:37:12 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:37:12 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <442E06CC.2080606-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <44306028.2030102@telly.org> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan for their > respective contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks guys! Thanks for the good words. Having the right distro win was a nice bonus, even without screenshots :-). - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 2 23:47:28 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:47:28 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <44306290.8020200@utoronto.ca> Tom Watts wrote: >> Hi and thanks for the suggestions. >> >> There are no .rpmsave files in the yum.repos.d directory. I also made >> sure that all repositories listed are set to enabled. They are exacty >> the same as the repositories on my other system, which does work. I >> also did a 'yum clean all' >> >> As per Tom W.'s suggestion to make sure that the baseurl exists, >> here's what I think is the baseurl that is causing the problem. There >> may be others, but it doesn't get passed this one: >> #baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/ >> >> And here is the mirror site listed: >> mirrorlist=http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/updates-released-fc$releasever >> >> >> What would be the command that would return the value for >> '$releasever' and '$basearch' so I can check whether it makes sense? I >> can access the following site, which I would think is the right one: >> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ >> >> I also changed the baseurl line to the above - no luck. >> >> Is it possible that, even though I am able to access the internet, yum >> isn't? >> >> Thanks, >> >> John. > > Did you remove the # from the baseurl line? # comments that line, thus > ignoring the value of that baseurl...at least to my knowledge, that's > what it does. > > Also, I think you're safe to assume that $releasever and $basearch are > returning the correct values. If you're not comfortable with that, by > all means, it's safe to just put those values in yourself. > > Other than uncommenting that line, I'm not sure what else to suggest. > Maybe copy the yum.repos.d directory from the machines that work? Changing the $releasever and $basearch worked for me when upgrading from FC5 beta 3 to FC5. I think I just browsed the ftp mirror and copied the path directly into the relevant files. Tom's idea of copying the directory from your working machine sounds like a great one. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 01:16:49 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 21:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <44305DF3.7040904-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <200604021912.09543.shrike@heinous.org> <44305DF3.7040904@telly.org> Message-ID: <50674.207.188.65.194.1144027009.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Now that the obstacles to use of open source are less > technical and more political/economic, advocates need to deal with the > CYA mentality of managers for whom "safety" is more important than > reduced cost or greater flexibility. Having evidence of widespread use > of open source in many industries helps confront FUD-based objections > that it's too unproven. There is a huge irony here. Not too long ago, IBM were the main beneficiaries of the CYA mentality in companies. 'Nobody got fired for buying IBM' it was said. Now IBM is backing Linux and Open Source, and they themselves have to deal with the FUD factor. Indeed, it does seem true: what goes around comes around. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 416-465-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 01:31:49 2006 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:31:49 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <44306290.8020200-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> <44306290.8020200@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <44307B05.7040604@sympatico.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Tom Watts wrote: > >>> Hi and thanks for the suggestions. >>> >>> There are no .rpmsave files in the yum.repos.d directory. I also >>> made sure that all repositories listed are set to enabled. They are >>> exacty the same as the repositories on my other system, which does >>> work. I also did a 'yum clean all' >>> >>> As per Tom W.'s suggestion to make sure that the baseurl exists, >>> here's what I think is the baseurl that is causing the problem. >>> There may be others, but it doesn't get passed this one: >>> #baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/ >>> >>> And here is the mirror site listed: >>> mirrorlist=http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/updates-released-fc$releasever >>> >>> >>> What would be the command that would return the value for >>> '$releasever' and '$basearch' so I can check whether it makes sense? >>> I can access the following site, which I would think is the right one: >>> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ >>> >>> I also changed the baseurl line to the above - no luck. >>> >>> Is it possible that, even though I am able to access the internet, >>> yum isn't? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> John. >> >> >> Did you remove the # from the baseurl line? # comments that line, >> thus ignoring the value of that baseurl...at least to my knowledge, >> that's what it does. >> >> Also, I think you're safe to assume that $releasever and $basearch >> are returning the correct values. If you're not comfortable with >> that, by all means, it's safe to just put those values in yourself. >> >> Other than uncommenting that line, I'm not sure what else to suggest. >> Maybe copy the yum.repos.d directory from the machines that work? > > > Changing the $releasever and $basearch worked for me when upgrading > from FC5 beta 3 to FC5. I think I just browsed the ftp mirror and > copied the path directly into the relevant files. > > Tom's idea of copying the directory from your working machine sounds > like a great one. > > Jamon I searched several times for an alternate to http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ and can't find one (tried ftp also). I also copied the repo directory from my working system and that made no change at all. I think I'm left with re-installing FC4 from scratch. What a pain!!! If that doesn't work, I'll be switching distros. Thanks for the advice. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 01:48:30 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:48:30 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <44307B05.7040604-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> <44306290.8020200@utoronto.ca> <44307B05.7040604@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <44307EEE.1010502@utoronto.ca> John Moniz wrote: > I searched several times for an alternate to > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ > and can't find one (tried ftp also). I also copied the repo directory > from my working system and that made no change at all. > > I think I'm left with re-installing FC4 from scratch. What a pain!!! If > that doesn't work, I'll be switching distros. > > Thanks for the advice. Have you tried http://tank.cns.utoronto.ca/fedora/core/updates/4/i386/ ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 02:13:10 2006 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 22:13:10 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <44307EEE.1010502-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> <442CBEE4.5010507@interlog.com> <442D4608.9030605@utoronto.ca> <44301ABF.5090903@sympatico.ca> <44306290.8020200@utoronto.ca> <44307B05.7040604@sympatico.ca> <44307EEE.1010502@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <443084B6.7080800@sympatico.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > John Moniz wrote: > >> I searched several times for an alternate to >> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ >> and can't find one (tried ftp also). I also copied the repo directory >> from my working system and that made no change at all. >> >> I think I'm left with re-installing FC4 from scratch. What a pain!!! >> If that doesn't work, I'll be switching distros. >> >> Thanks for the advice. > > > Have you tried http://tank.cns.utoronto.ca/fedora/core/updates/4/i386/ ? Thanks Jamon. I hadn't tried that site as I wasn't aware of it. But it gave me the same thing. It almost appears like yum is having dns problems. The thing is, I can get to the internet just fine. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From imranqau-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 02:45:21 2006 From: imranqau-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Muhammad Imran) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 02:45:21 +0000 Subject: mknod errors on boot Message-ID: Helo everybody, When my Fedora Core 4 system boots up, i get these error message on the very first boot screen: mknod: error creating /dev/console : 17 mknod: error creating /dev/null : 17 mknod: error creating /dev/zero : 17 However, sometimes mysteriously these errors disappear and system boots up fine. I have tried several re-boots but haven't seen these errors. But, at times i still get these errors. I did a google search, and read man page of mknod but couldn't get any clue about these errors. any thoughts? Thanks, Imran. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 04:02:47 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 00:02:47 -0400 Subject: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? Message-ID: <44309E67.1040404@telly.org> [ this was originally sent as private email to Aaron in response to his mail; however after he and I got into some lively two-way discussion it seemed reasonable to make the points to a wider audience. ] Aaron Vegh wrote: >Much better to rally the support of as many like-minded individuals as >we can, and start a foundation, a Canadian FSF for example. Hello Aaron. What you suggest is exactly what we're trying to do with the revival-in-progress at CLUE. The idea here was to be a little more inclusive than a Canadian FSF, in that there is a substantial component of the open source community here that is GPL-hostile (the significant BSD and Perl communities, for instance). CLUE chose that it was better to be inclusive, and to work to support as much of the community as possible. CLUE has already enlisted the support of academics and policy makers to help us develop reasonable, coherent positions that can be advanced in Ottawa and elsewhere. We are working with CIPPIC on Ottawa and KMDI in Toronto, and folks like Micheal Geist are on our Advisory Council. Some of our supporters in parliament hill are already working from the inside :-) To get more of an idea of where we're at, have a look at http://www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/home/news.asp?id=37960 http://www.cluecan.ca/goals http://www.cluecan.ca/projects http://www.cluecan.ca/background Anyone interesting in helping is achieve these goals, though helping with one of our projects or assisting with the website development is certainly welcomed. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 11:03:59 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Canada Prep. meeting Message-ID: <20060403110359.98374.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Just plan a short low-key review meeting as to where things stand regarding the Linux World Canada show. The meeting will be at the Starbucks Coffee shop inside the Indigo Bookstore, North West corner of Yonge and Eglinton starting at 7:00 PM. Colin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 13:26:16 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:26:16 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060402161649.GA3833-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> > > > How to apply: > > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > > > That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's > > picture? > > > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like > > employers asking for photos in a job application, see: > > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp > > But, how do you meet the quota, then? They didn't say what it should be a photo of. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 15:07:33 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:07:33 +0000 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/2/06, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > > > Harnessing the mind of a nation is an engineering problem, so it's not > > insurmountable. > > Hilarious! I know I'm among kindred spirits when a quote like this > makes sense to me. > > Scott, I believe that conditions change for the better in other > countries because a group of citizens form a successful lobby group, > and after a campaign of public awareness and letter-writing, for > example, they successfully influence policy. > > Waiting for the Green Party to make it into office is a fool's game: I > like them as well as anyone but in Canada we're in for a long wait. Actually, the governance challenges they have apparently been facing, of late, are very similar to what a "Canadian FSF" would have to address... I gather that they have fallen into a trap where the party leader needs to be able to overcome democratic process within the party... > Much better to rally the support of as many like-minded individuals as > we can, and start a foundation, a Canadian FSF for example. It's not > rocket science: > > - A small group of us would act as organizers and strategists. > - We would decide on a course of action that would result in us > achieving our goals. > - The majority of the membership would assist in getting those actions > accomplished. The problem with that is political, one of governance. Who is it that decides on the course of action? Who decides which "wannabe-FSF" organization winds up being The One??? Richard Stallman leads the FSF quite compellingly out of the fact that he is very much a "prophetic figure." The near-joke is that he's the "Pope" of Free Software, and the excruciating care with which he tends to speak fits with the "ex-cathedra" notion of the authoritativeness of papal statements. There is also a relevant analogy to be drawn to another religious figure, John the Baptist; Stallman spent years essentially alone in his belief in "the cause" as, as it were, "a voice crying in the wilderness", seeking that people prepare to use free software. He has authority out of the fact that he was the one "crying in the wilderness" for so many years. An attempt to found a Canadian FSF would founder almost certainly as there isn't anyone with a comparable level of monomania that would be the clear authority. Regionalism would further fragment this, as there is no satisfactory place to found the organization. Why shouldn't someone in Calgary start another foundation that represents them? Ditto for Montreal. > We have, on this list, some of the smartest people anywhere. It would > be a shame if we couldn't harness that group intelligence to do some > good for our society. The trouble is that politics is HARD... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 15:10:07 2006 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:10:07 -0400 Subject: Linux World Canada Prep. meeting In-Reply-To: <20060403110359.98374.qmail-iE2/U85ktn6B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060403110359.98374.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44313ACF.3080904@pppoe.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: >Just plan a short low-key review meeting as to where >things stand regarding the Linux World Canada show. >The meeting will be at the Starbucks Coffee shop >inside the Indigo Bookstore, North West corner of >Yonge and Eglinton starting at 7:00 PM. > > > Is this meeting today, Monday April 3? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 15:35:37 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:35:37 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <44301247.2010605-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> <44301247.2010605@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060403153537.GD4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 02:04:55PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Vendors such as IBM do publish success stories. However, the reality is > that most companies don't care to call attention to themselves in areas > that are not related to their core business. You don't hear about what > brand of vehicles FedEx chooses for its fleet even though that is > extremely important information in some sectors. Well the supplier might make a big deal out of getting the contract to supply them. And you could just look at their vehicles to tell who makes them. > CN is a railroad, not an IT company. They stand very little to gain from > publicity about their choice of Linux, unless they have a deliberate > interest in being seen as an innovator. (And, thanks to the growth of > open source, these days using Linux is not the "innovation" it used to > be :-) ) People probably prefer that they focus on making trains go, on time, on the track and not into each other. :) > The community needs to take the initiative to identify these users. If > anyone is interested in helping collect Canadian open source success > stories, let me know. There are certainly ways to publicize this. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 15:42:56 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:42:56 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > An attempt to found a Canadian FSF would founder almost certainly as > there isn't anyone with a comparable level of monomania that would be > the clear authority. Regionalism would further fragment this, as > there is no satisfactory place to found the organization. Why > shouldn't someone in Calgary start another foundation that represents > them? Ditto for Montreal. Perhaps the foundational approach is not the way to go then. Perhaps treating Linux as a product like any other, marketing it as such to consumers/businesses would be the better approach. Anything tinged with ideology (whatever that is) or political rhetoric automatically tunes people out -- but products, not so much. As users, developers, and advocates, we should in the marketing business, not in the now well established technical support business, or political arena (more on this in a moment). Not that there isn't a place for either, just that at the moment I'd say (and am for that matter) that energy should be directed at getting people to take notice outside of the aforementioned areas. >> We have, on this list, some of the smartest people anywhere. It would >> be a shame if we couldn't harness that group intelligence to do some >> good for our society. Intelligence or cleverness, which is more important to convincing someone to consider Linux? For that matter, just getting people to understand *what* Linux is would be a huge task but would probably do more good than any amount of politicking or mega/monomaniacal ravings or vision. > The trouble is that politics is HARD... And essentially meaningless empty rhetoric directed at making it appear that governments are engaged in something other than hiding the fact that they are trying to hide from the public who originally gave them their mandate. Politics is not the avenue *yet*. Someday it will be, but right now, people don't even know what Linux is. They've heard the name for sure -- there is a huge amount of curiosity out there -- it's just a matter of getting people's attention *without* resorting to politics. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 15:52:22 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:52:22 +0000 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <44314280.3060902-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 4/3/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > An attempt to found a Canadian FSF would founder almost certainly as > > there isn't anyone with a comparable level of monomania that would be > > the clear authority. Regionalism would further fragment this, as > > there is no satisfactory place to found the organization. Why > > shouldn't someone in Calgary start another foundation that represents > > them? Ditto for Montreal. > > Perhaps the foundational approach is not the way to go then. Perhaps > treating Linux as a product like any other, marketing it as such to > consumers/businesses would be the better approach. Anything tinged with > ideology (whatever that is) or political rhetoric automatically tunes > people out -- but products, not so much. As users, developers, and > advocates, we should in the marketing business, not in the now well > established technical support business, or political arena (more on this > in a moment). Not that there isn't a place for either, just that at the > moment I'd say (and am for that matter) that energy should be directed > at getting people to take notice outside of the aforementioned areas. ideology is a given in this case. The only way to avoid political rhetoric is to continually declare the basic political principles, all the time. > >> We have, on this list, some of the smartest people anywhere. It would > >> be a shame if we couldn't harness that group intelligence to do some > >> good for our society. > > Intelligence or cleverness, which is more important to convincing > someone to consider Linux? For that matter, just getting people to > understand *what* Linux is would be a huge task but would probably do > more good than any amount of politicking or mega/monomaniacal ravings or > vision. > > > The trouble is that politics is HARD... > > And essentially meaningless empty rhetoric directed at making it appear > that governments are engaged in something other than hiding the fact > that they are trying to hide from the public who originally gave them > their mandate. Politics is not the avenue *yet*. Someday it will be, but > right now, people don't even know what Linux is. They've heard the name > for sure -- there is a huge amount of curiosity out there -- it's just a > matter of getting people's attention *without* resorting to politics. You're missing the point. Any time more than one person gets together, there's politics. Figuring out that you can start talking when I stop talking, or vice versa, is a policy, and hence politics. When a group of people get together, and you have to figure out a way to have someone speak next in an organized manner, THAT'S POLITICS. If you try to "avoid resorting to politics," then that's a simple evasion of the simple truth, that any time people get together, "politics happens." Pretending the irrelevance of that is as sure a route to failure as exists. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 16:02:15 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Canada Prep. meeting In-Reply-To: <44313ACF.3080904-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <44313ACF.3080904@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20060403160215.83853.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yes. --- Meng Cheah wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: > > >Just plan a short low-key review meeting as to > where > >things stand regarding the Linux World Canada show. > >The meeting will be at the Starbucks Coffee shop > >inside the Indigo Bookstore, North West corner of > >Yonge and Eglinton starting at 7:00 PM. > > > > > > > Is this meeting today, Monday April 3? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 16:37:16 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:37:16 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44314F3C.8020802@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >>Waiting for the Green Party to make it into office is a fool's game: I >>like them as well as anyone but in Canada we're in for a long wait. >> >> > >Actually, the governance challenges they have apparently been facing, >of late, are very similar to what a "Canadian FSF" would have to >address... > Not necessarily. In the FSF the leader *is* the organization; there's transparency but no governance per se. If you "join" the FSF you don't have voting rights; you've bought into the vision and have no say in its direction. CLUE is taking a different direction, moving to be a completely democratic body in pursuit of similar vision but different strategies. Open source doesn't need another Stallman or Raymond or Perens or Maddog. It needs organizations, not personalities, groups with articulate leadership who are more debaters and organizers than philosophers and visionaries. In a properly democratic org the vision and goals are more important than the people who execute them. Figureheads are necessary only so far as the media needs them, but that's all. A perfect example of this is Linux Australia, a group that nicely passes the baton between leaders without losing purpose or competence. It prevents burnout and creates multiple qualified leaders rather than depending on a single point of failure. If natural leaders emerge, that's a nice bonus but not required. >Who is it that decides on the course of action? Who decides which "wannabe-FSF" organization winds up being The One??? > > How many are there? In Canada there are only two organizations that are not focused on meetings, and have open source advocacy as their primary goals: CLUE and FACIL. They work in tandem with others such as EFF and Creative Commons -- it doesn't all have to be under one roof. >Richard Stallman leads the FSF quite compellingly out of the fact that he is very much a "prophetic figure." The near-joke is that he's the >"Pope" of Free Software, and the excruciating care with which he tends to speak fits with the "ex-cathedra" notion of the authoritativeness of papal statements. > > That the FSF represents the orthodoxy within a diverse and far-more-secular movement known as open source is fairly well established. On the other hand we have the "pragmatists", the many who share in much of the vision but not all of it (and certainly not the tactics or the leadership of the orthodoxy). One _can_ advocate open source while hating the GPL; Perl and BSD folks do it all the time. >An attempt to found a Canadian FSF would founder almost certainly as there isn't anyone with a comparable level of monomania that would be the clear authority. > Fine, since the movement already has enough icons and doesn't need more. It needs organization in which authority comes from the collective rather than being imposed on it. >Regionalism would further fragment this, as there is no satisfactory place to found the organization. Why >shouldn't someone in Calgary start another foundation that represents them? Ditto for Montreal. > > Actually, this has already happened. There are, at last count. more than 100 user groups in Canada. Most of them have specific focus and purpose and do that well. If the intent is to serve a more regional or national purpose, that's OK too. Another nice thing about not depending on icons is that it's easier to spread the work around. >The trouble is that politics is HARD... > > Yes, but the consequences of inaction are harder. CLUE is taking what we consider to be a reasonable shot at a national lobbying/advocacy effort. It is designed to be inclusive of the community, focusing on shared values rather than those that separate us. There are sufficient common values, IMO, that allow die-hard GNU/Linux congregants to have common ground with the pragmatists, and that unite people across the country. Will CLUE succeed? Don't know; I think it has a good shot, with endorsements and support from folks like Micheal Geist, Bob Young and Dick Hardt (founder of ActiveState). In any case, it is far better to try and fail than not to try. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 17:21:40 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:21:40 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <20060403153537.GD4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <442FFF51.6080904@telly.org> <20060402174343.GA4039@wp.magstar.net> <44301247.2010605@telly.org> <20060403153537.GD4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <443159A4.1000806@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>CN is a railroad, not an IT company. They stand very little to gain from >>publicity about their choice of Linux, unless they have a deliberate >>interest in being seen as an innovator. >> >People probably prefer that they focus on making trains go, on time, on >the track and not into each other. :) > > That's why it's up to others to call attention to their choice of tech. CN doesn't care that its use of open source helps demonstrate its stability and mission-critical suitability to others, but advocates and marketers certainly care. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 18:09:22 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:09:22 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <443164D2.5030303@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >ideology is a given in this case. > > The line between "vision" and "ideology" is a thin one. >The only way to avoid political rhetoric is to continually declare the basic political principles, all the time. > > Or you simply enshrine the vision and mission of the org into the bylaws, and post them for all to see: http://www.cluecan.ca/intro http://www.cluecan.ca/goals Once the vision and mission are set, then all the ensuing internal debate is how to execute within that context. Next come goals, and then strategy and tactics to achieve the goals. Internal debate on these issues can be heated, but as long as it's in the shared interest of reaching the vision, that's OK. >>Someday it will be, but right now, people don't even know what Linux is. >> So what? Most people don't know what a catalytic converter is either, but they still drive cars. "Having everyone know what Linux is" is not IMO a useful goal or strategy. Having open source and open standards promoted and accepted amongst relevant developers of public policy is far more useful. "Educating the public understand that distributing free software is not piracy" serves a broader goal, and this particular kind of public awareness is IMO far more important to "the vision" than ensuring that everyone's heard of Linux. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 19:20:24 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:20:24 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <44317578.90107@utoronto.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/3/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Christopher Browne wrote: >>> An attempt to found a Canadian FSF would founder almost certainly as >>> there isn't anyone with a comparable level of monomania that would be >>> the clear authority. Regionalism would further fragment this, as >>> there is no satisfactory place to found the organization. Why >>> shouldn't someone in Calgary start another foundation that represents >>> them? Ditto for Montreal. >> Perhaps the foundational approach is not the way to go then. Perhaps >> treating Linux as a product like any other, marketing it as such to >> consumers/businesses would be the better approach. Anything tinged with >> ideology (whatever that is) or political rhetoric automatically tunes >> people out -- but products, not so much. As users, developers, and >> advocates, we should in the marketing business, not in the now well >> established technical support business, or political arena (more on this >> in a moment). Not that there isn't a place for either, just that at the >> moment I'd say (and am for that matter) that energy should be directed >> at getting people to take notice outside of the aforementioned areas. > > ideology is a given in this case. > > The only way to avoid political rhetoric is to continually declare the > basic political principles, all the time. > >>>> We have, on this list, some of the smartest people anywhere. It would >>>> be a shame if we couldn't harness that group intelligence to do some >>>> good for our society. >> Intelligence or cleverness, which is more important to convincing >> someone to consider Linux? For that matter, just getting people to >> understand *what* Linux is would be a huge task but would probably do >> more good than any amount of politicking or mega/monomaniacal ravings or >> vision. >> >>> The trouble is that politics is HARD... >> And essentially meaningless empty rhetoric directed at making it appear >> that governments are engaged in something other than hiding the fact >> that they are trying to hide from the public who originally gave them >> their mandate. Politics is not the avenue *yet*. Someday it will be, but >> right now, people don't even know what Linux is. They've heard the name >> for sure -- there is a huge amount of curiosity out there -- it's just a >> matter of getting people's attention *without* resorting to politics. > > You're missing the point. I think that the reverse is true. I suppose I'm guilty of not defining the word in an extremely measured and specific manner; indeed, I don't define it at all, but you are relying on a totally different conception of politics that the one to which I refer in a clear and referential enough manner. See below. > Any time more than one person gets together, there's politics. > > Figuring out that you can start talking when I stop talking, or vice > versa, is a policy, and hence politics. > > When a group of people get together, and you have to figure out a way > to have someone speak next in an organized manner, THAT'S POLITICS. > > If you try to "avoid resorting to politics," then that's a simple > evasion of the simple truth, that any time people get together, > "politics happens." Pretending the irrelevance of that is as sure a > route to failure as exists. How then does a company like Apple or Microsoft successfully market a product? When was the last time a marketing campaign launched by either of the two companies relied on being openly political? When was the last time that you saw a television or magazine ad that highlighted the "political" dynamics of the development or marketing teams? Your definition of politics doesn't change the fact that marketing a product is far easier if there is no tinge of the "political" involved. Of course, it's not impossible, but on the whole, and in the most general sense I can possibly muster in these few words, I pronounce it to be extremely difficult or unlikely to be successful. That being said, I can imagine those few successes would be of most magnificent proportions. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 20:23:44 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:23:44 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <44317578.90107-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> <44317578.90107@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Jamon Camisso wrote: > How then does a company like Apple or Microsoft successfully market a > product? When was the last time a marketing campaign launched by either of > the two companies relied on being openly political? When was the last time > that you saw a television or magazine ad that highlighted the "political" > dynamics of the development or marketing teams? Your definition of politics > doesn't change the fact that marketing a product is far easier if there is no > tinge of the "political" involved. Of course, it's not impossible, but on the > whole, and in the most general sense I can possibly muster in these few > words, I pronounce it to be extremely difficult or unlikely to be successful. > That being said, I can imagine those few successes would be of most > magnificent proportions. Openly political marketing campaigns exist when the potential buyers cannot understand the technical merits and/or are not to understand the technical merits, and/or are fed up with numbers and graphs. FUD is politics. A professionally done comparison between operating systems, with uptime, footprint, coo evaluations and stress and security testing will cause the eyes of most readers to glaze over after the first 3 pages out of 50+. So marketing and advertising for the masses is and will remain politics. It can be FUD, it can be appeal to basic instincts (pictures of good food, nice ladies, happy workers), it can be a lot of things. But a merit-based comparison using canonicalized metrics and scientifically done it will not be. Ever. So I think that what must be done, it to first understand that the annoying little ms videos played before some free video clips from the internet, which spread FUD about Linux coo and security and integration cost, without saying a word about ms server excepting 'maybe turning back to it' while giving up on linux, are FUD, are politics, and are 'ad pinguinem' attacks in the best election campaign smear/lawyer talk pattern, complete with the noisy 70's stick-shifting car and Indian (subcontinent) scenery, and insinuating nasal speaker voice and the royal 'we' tense used by him. So, in the context of this list 'not engaging in ms bashing', one should verify whether this position is valid. FUD and politics are here to stay. I did not make the rules of this game, but I play to stay in the game, and maybe to win. One of the names of the game is FUD and smearing. Sorry about that. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 20:28:57 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NewTLUG Meeting @ LWNW Message-ID: <20060403202857.95309.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I sent the following in for publication in the Linux World Canada show guide as a description regarding the April NewTLUG meeting: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The April 2006 NewTLUG meeting. Topic: "Linux Distribution Smack-Down" or An Introductory Look At Why To Choose One Linux Over Another. We will look at why there are so many diverse Linux distributions and how to benefit from the choice. A number of local power users will discuss the more prominent distributions and explain why they choose one over another. This meeting is free and everyone is welcome. Date: April 25, 2006 Time: 7:00 to 10:00pm Room: 201D Currently scheduled topics and speakers are: - Why so many distributions and how users benefit - Debian & Knoppix - Colin McGregor - Fedora - Paul Mora - Mandriva - Evan Leibovitch - MEPIS and PCLOS - Geoff Mitchell - Ubuntu ? David Patrick Come join us. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 20:30:56 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:30:56 -0400 Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> <44317578.90107@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604031330h7a57a9cj3843a92763575e50@mail.gmail.com> On 4/3/06, Peter wrote: > [...] FUD is politics. Note that Fud is politics does NOT equal Politics is fud. > A professionally done Period. It makes _all_ the difference. > So, in the context of this list 'not engaging in ms bashing', one should > verify whether this position is valid. FUD and politics are here to > stay. I did not make the rules of this game, but I play to stay in the > game, and maybe to win. One of the names of the game is FUD and > smearing. Sorry about that. Amen. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 21:56:24 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:56:24 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Question for TLUGgers: How can Canada take a leading role in FOSS? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604031330h7a57a9cj3843a92763575e50-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604011730o312d0acasd392f876d33e1991@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604020333w40bc8e1ehf483c61baef7a836@mail.gmail.com> <4386c5b20604020623o24398f95h5466714d42487678@mail.gmail.com> <44314280.3060902@utoronto.ca> <44317578.90107@utoronto.ca> <99a6c38f0604031330h7a57a9cj3843a92763575e50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/3/06, Peter wrote: >> [...] FUD is politics. > > Note that Fud is politics does NOT equal Politics is fud. I agree, but sometimes it takes years to find the difference. >> A professionally done > > Period. It makes _all_ the difference. For whoever has a college degree and/or the understanding and the patience to read it to the end. And most potential buyers don't. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 3 23:22:09 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:22:09 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4431AE21.80807@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: >>>> How to apply: >>>> Please send a detailed CV with photo >>> That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's >>> picture? >>> >>> The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like >>> employers asking for photos in a job application, see: >>> http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp >> But, how do you meet the quota, then? > > They didn't say what it should be a photo of. Here's my photo. ;-) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tux2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4608 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 02:14:31 2006 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: YUM Error Message-ID: <61164.69.63.50.135.1144116871.squirrel@69.63.50.135> > Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> John Moniz wrote: >> >>> I searched several times for an alternate to >>> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/4/i386/ >>> and can't find one (tried ftp also). I also copied the repo directory >>> from my working system and that made no change at all. >>> >>> I think I'm left with re-installing FC4 from scratch. What a pain!!! >>> If that doesn't work, I'll be switching distros. >>> >>> Thanks for the advice. >> >> >> Have you tried http://tank.cns.utoronto.ca/fedora/core/updates/4/i386/ ? > > Thanks Jamon. I hadn't tried that site as I wasn't aware of it. But it > gave me the same thing. > > It almost appears like yum is having dns problems. The thing is, I can > get to the internet just fine. > > John. > -- > Yum has a tendency to hang on to all the old cruft. Whenever I have a problem with yum the first thing I try is a full clean up: yum clean all And then: yum check-update I never do a 'yum update' when there are hundreds of packages in need of upgrading. This can put you at the mercy of a painfully slow mirror. Yum is fickle but it beats Up2date. ---------------------------- Powered by Execulink Webmail http://www.execulink.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 03:08:20 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:08:20 -0400 Subject: non-interactive XML editor Message-ID: <4431E324.6070301@georgetown.wehave.net> Hi, I'm hoping someone here has worked with XML enough to give me some hints on a good tool to use. I need to generate some XML out of text files, I would be quite happy to use a command line tool like this: xmldohicky -d person.dtd -o mytarget.xml user.name=bob I would expect (perhaps I expect too much of XML) that such a tool would recognize that I wish to build a document of type person and that user.name actually means insert a section with value bob into the section and create the section if it doesn't exist ... I suppose it's called a node, right? I'm not against using perl/ruby/whatever, I just expect there must be a simple command line tool like I'm suggesting ... if only I could find it. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 03:25:54 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:25:54 -0500 Subject: non-interactive XML editor In-Reply-To: <4431E324.6070301-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4431E324.6070301@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <200604032325.55009.marc@lijour.net> On April 3, 2006 11:08 pm, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Hi, > > I'm hoping someone here has worked with XML enough to give me some hints on > a good tool to use. I need to generate some XML out of text files, I would > be quite happy to use a command line tool like this: > > xmldohicky -d person.dtd -o mytarget.xml user.name=bob > > I would expect (perhaps I expect too much of XML) that such a tool would > recognize that I wish to build a document of type person and that user.name > actually means insert a section with value bob into the > section and create the section if it doesn't exist ... I suppose > it's called a node, right? > > I'm not against using perl/ruby/whatever, I just expect there must be a > simple command line tool like I'm suggesting ... if only I could find it. As an IDE I would recommand oxygenXML which is just awesome. But it does not answer your question (and it is not free, just awesome!). I see one problem in your situation, how is xmldohicky going to guess the format of the text files? If the format was fixed, for example XML (to take the problem the other way around) it would be extremely easy to generate whatever output format you wish by using XSL Transformation (xsltproc is your tool, it comes in libxslt-xsltproc). If your input format is known, say it is CSV, you may find prebuilt scripts on the internet for that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 04:52:15 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:52:15 -0400 Subject: Article on creating strong passwords Message-ID: <200604040052.15445.jason@detachednetworks.ca> http://www.lockdown.co.uk/?pg=combi&s=articles Highlights the importance of choosing a strong password. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 06:06:42 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:06:42 -0400 Subject: Article on creating strong passwords In-Reply-To: <200604040052.15445.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200604040052.15445.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <44320CF2.1030106@utoronto.ca> Jason Shein wrote: > http://www.lockdown.co.uk/?pg=combi&s=articles > > Highlights the importance of choosing a strong password. > Interesting that with 96 characters, 8 characters if properly mixed are apparently more than sufficient for creating a strong password. Does anyone else on the list run Folding at Home or any of the distributed.net projects? I'm more inclined to Folding at home myself. If you don't, help out and donate your unused cpu cycles. http://folding.stanford.edu/ http://www.distributed.net/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 13:03:39 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 09:03:39 -0400 Subject: non-interactive XML editor In-Reply-To: <200604032325.55009.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <4431E324.6070301@georgetown.wehave.net> <200604032325.55009.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <44326EAB.60107@georgetown.wehave.net> Marc Lijour wrote: > I see one problem in your situation, how is xmldohicky going to guess the > format of the text files? If the format was fixed, for example XML (to take > the problem the other way around) it would be extremely easy to generate > whatever output format you wish by using XSL Transformation (xsltproc is your > tool, it comes in libxslt-xsltproc). I know what each element is. For example I have a files called packages which lists things like apache, postfix - one per line. When I encounter a package file I know each line should be stuffed into a install.software.package (node/element/whatever). I'll take a look at xsltproc, perhaps that will do what I want. Thansk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 15:33:48 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:33:48 -0400 Subject: Posting Sys Admin Jobs to mailing group In-Reply-To: <50632.207.188.65.194.1143753113.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>; from phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org on Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 04:11:53PM -0500 References: <442C1DA4.1020106@sympatico.ca> <50632.207.188.65.194.1143753113.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20060404113348.B9134@diamond.ss.org> The policy the executive group has had for pushing on 7 years now, is that job postings is a direct benefit to the members on this list and are thus explicitly allowed. The rational was that anyone looking for work would have direct benefit by this policy, and everyone has an indirect benefit because allowing job postings gave companies easier access to the linux professionals in this city. The only thing I believe we ask is that you reply in private to the poster, which means the poster should have a valid return to: email address. Bill On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 04:11:53PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Speaking strictly for myself, I am not offended by these notices as long > as they don't overwhelm the other messages. > > Finding a job is hard work, so I suggest that the group should be flexible > when the newsgroup can facilitate this process. > > It might be a good idea to agree on some sort of prefix (eg, 'JP:' for job > posting). Then those of us that are not interested can easily bypass those > messages. > > I would suggest also that job postings from employment agencies are not > appropriate. That could get out of hand very quickly. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > http://www.syscompdesign.com > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > 416-465-0325 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 15:52:30 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 11:52:30 -0400 Subject: Posting Sys Admin Jobs to mailing group In-Reply-To: <20060404113348.B9134-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <442C1DA4.1020106@sympatico.ca> <50632.207.188.65.194.1143753113.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20060404113348.B9134@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4432963E.5060707@telly.org> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >The policy the executive group has had for pushing on 7 years now, is that job postings is a direct benefit to the members on this list and are thus explicitly allowed. > One would think that such a firm and longstanding policy would have found its way into the guidelines posted at http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Are there any other stealth policies? Posting them is a good way to eliminate ambiguities, not to mention threads like this one. :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 15:56:04 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:56:04 -0400 Subject: Posting Sys Admin Jobs to mailing group In-Reply-To: <4432963E.5060707-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <442C1DA4.1020106@sympatico.ca> <50632.207.188.65.194.1143753113.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20060404113348.B9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432963E.5060707@telly.org> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604040856r4f05d619n3def16ac1668c799@mail.gmail.com> On 4/4/06, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >The policy the executive group has had for pushing on 7 years now, is that job postings is a direct benefit to the members on this list and are thus explicitly allowed. > > > One would think that such a firm and longstanding policy would have > found its way into the guidelines posted at > http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Are there any other stealth policies? Posting them is a good way to > eliminate ambiguities, not to mention threads like this one. :-) I wrote an FAQ ages ago, it was never migrated to the Wiki. It was however, logically butchered at one point in a rewrite. Here's the copy from 2002: http://webhome.idirect.com/~mgjk/tlug/faq.html Since there's now a board and some official structure or something, maybe it can be voted on, mangled, fought over and so on. It used to be part of the sigs... not at that URL mind you. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 16:33:25 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 12:33:25 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <442C51EF.8090708-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 04:47:27PM -0500 References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> > > >It would be unfortunate if you were to poison the ongoing good relations, > > > I have, on multiple occasions, tried to establish contact to enable > better relations between GTALUG, NewTLUG, and other groups in the > region. I spoke with you personally at length about the benefits of > doing this and you appeared to agree. Yet even getting the courtesy of a > reply to requests to the GTALUG board, directly or through > intermediaries such as yourself and William, appears to be an impossible > task. I have made concrete suggestions about plans to increase GTALUG > membership, but have yet to even be heard on them by the Board. And I > have heard offline from other area LUGs that want nothing to do with GTALUG. > > If these are good relations I hesitate to ask what constitutes bad. I > welcome any attempts to improve this situation. > You may not be aware of this, but Herb is one of the executives in GTALUG, so if NEWTLUG wants to 'establish contact' all Herb has to do is pick up a phone and call a special meeting of the executive. WestLug's representation in GTALUG also happens to be one of the board members. I could point out the even UU has a representative on GTALUG Executive but that happened completely by accident. There are two other regular groups in Toronto, The Linux Meet Up group and the Uof T LUG. The first I approached about co-operation and they decided that it wasn't necessary, and the second we can't find a single person that belongs to this group. There are specific educational organization and companies that we are on friendly terms with as well. We have friendly relations with at least a dozen other LUGs within the regional area, from Kingston to Kitchener to New Market. The general attitude we have taken is that we have our house to deal with and they have ther own houses to deal with, and if there ever comes up an issue that requires regional cooperation we will be ready to cooperate. We have tried to get cross postings of each others meetings on the various mailing lists, but that has been the extent of the cooperation we felt was necessary with these other groups so far. They seem to have the same belief. Now, the question that is being asked in the GTALUG executive meetings is what exactly is your role in anything. Herb has not given any reason to believe that you or anyone else is responsible for any of the day to day jobs within NEWTLUG. We have not been contacted officially or unofficially by any of the executives of CLUE either. You claim to represent them, so when were you appointed or elected into their executive? In fact when did CLUE have an election? Since I'm a memeber of CLUE I should have been notified of the annual election. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 16:35:52 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 12:35:52 -0400 Subject: YUM Error In-Reply-To: <442C888D.409-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 08:40:29PM -0500 References: <442C888D.409@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20060404123552.D9134@diamond.ss.org> You may have gotten an answer to this so if you did please ignore. The error is because you have an invaid URL to the repository. Check your /etc/yum.conf and make sure the uRLs listed there are still valid. Bill On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 08:40:29PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > Hi all; > > I have a PC I am setting up with FC4 for my son. Initially, I installed > RH7.3 (what a great distro). I had yum working and updated/installed a > few packages. > > Then I upgraded to FC4. After the upgrade, I did a 'yum update' and a > huge number of packages were updated successfully, although I initially > had to get rid of a few packages (probably left over from RH7.3) because > of incompatibilties. All in all, yum successfuly downloaded and updated > over 600M of packages. > > The next time I did a 'yum update', I got the following: "Error: Cannot > find a valid baseurl for repo: updates-released" (or extras or anything > else) > > I have spent hours trying different things, including re-installing yum. > I got lots of hits on google, but nothing I was able to use. Most tips > dealt with changing proxies (I don't use a proxy) or fixing the DNS set > up (it appears to be working when I ping a web site or use the command > 'host '). > > I presently have another FC4 machine with the very same version of yum > and it works fine, so it shouldn't be the yum version that's the > problem. It seems that the problem might be the network, but I don't > know what. > > Any ideas? If I can't get it fixed, it means re-installing FC4 from > scratch, then dumping it for another distro if it happens again. > > Thanks, > > John. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 16:56:59 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 12:56:59 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>; from mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:26:16AM -0400 References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> The most likely scenerio is that you need to get some kind of security clearance for the biology lab at U of T. They do some pretty interesting things there and they don't want to grant someone access to a place that routinely deals with diseases that can kill the population of the city. Bill On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:26:16AM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > > > How to apply: > > > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > > > > > That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's > > > picture? > > > > > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like > > > employers asking for photos in a job application, see: > > > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp > > > > But, how do you meet the quota, then? > > They didn't say what it should be a photo of. > > -Mike > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 17:37:38 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 13:37:38 -0400 Subject: RPM trouble in rescue mode Message-ID: <20060404173738.GA6089@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> I'm trying to recover a broken system using Redhat's rescue mode (Redhat AS 4). I have the root file system mounted and I've chroot'ed. When trying to install some RPMs, up2date fails with 'exit status 255'. No further explaination is given. I tried using rpm instead of up2date and I had the same error. What does this mean and how to I fix it? -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 31 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 18:07:08 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:07:08 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <20060404123325.C9134-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> Bill wrote: >Now, the question that is being asked in the GTALUG executive meetings is what exactly is your role in anything. > You could have always asked me; I'm not exactly inaccessible. That you choose to ask this in a public forum rather than private email is unfortunate. >We have not been contacted officially or unofficially by any of the executives of CLUE > That is an absolute lie. I sent an email to the GTALUG Board February 23rd, identifying myself as Executive Director of CLUE and requesting a meeting. (That role can be easily verified at http://www.linux.ca/drupal/clue-people). At this meeting, I wanted to present some proposals (which are still on the table, of anyone's interested) that would result in increased revenue and membership for GTALUG and a strengthening of the regional user community. I also proposed sharing resources at LinuxWorld; I'd thought that a combined LI/CLUE/GTALUG booth would have sent a good message to the public and made best use of scarce resources. I followed up with personal conversations with Christopher and William, who acknowledged receipt of my request. On March 3, in frustration of not receiving any reply, I posted to this list: >I have made repeated offers to to multiple GTALUG Board members regarding sharing resources (people, money, furniture, banners, card scanners , media relations, etc.) and I'm still hoping to co-operate. If anyone on the GTALUG board is reading this, please mail me back and let's see how we can get the most mileage from working together. > Colin replied: >Well, a response to your offer was considered at the last board meeting, and I gather that a formal response is being written. > No response, formal or otherwise, ever came. Can we please transcend the petty bureaucracy and games playing, folks? There is SO much that needs to be done, and such a limited amount of resources. There are good people in GTALUG and CLUE and throughout the community, yet Queen's Park is the most anti-open-source province in the country. Why is co-operation necessary to help fix this so much of a minefield? Why is GTALUG the only user group not to respond, let alone work together? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 20:00:51 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:00:51 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <4432B5CC.3010101-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 02:07:08PM -0400 References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060404160051.A10509@diamond.ss.org> On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 02:07:08PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Bill wrote: > > >Now, the question that is being asked in the GTALUG executive meetings is what exactly is your role in anything. > > > You could have always asked me; I'm not exactly inaccessible. That you > choose to ask this in a public forum rather than private email is > unfortunate. > Yet you have no problem airing out all the issues you have on the same public mailing list. You wonder why the GTALUG board doesn't take you seriously, it is simply you choose to attack every policy decision they make publicly on this list. If you want cooperation you have to give people a reason to coopoerate. > >We have not been contacted officially or unofficially by any of the executives of CLUE > > > That is an absolute lie. > > I sent an email to the GTALUG Board February 23rd, identifying myself as > Executive Director of CLUE and requesting a meeting. (That role can be > easily verified at http://www.linux.ca/drupal/clue-people). As I said in my post, myself and in fact several of the board members are also members of CLUE. CLUE has been around seven years now. When do they plan to elect a board. All the official CLUE mailings that come to me are from Bill Trayner. > > At this meeting, I wanted to present some proposals (which are still on > the table, of anyone's interested) that would result in increased > revenue and membership for GTALUG and a strengthening of the regional > user community. I also proposed sharing resources at LinuxWorld; I'd > thought that a combined LI/CLUE/GTALUG booth would have sent a good > message to the public and made best use of scarce resources. And I know that Chris specifically answered this by stating that the plans for Linux World had been finalized, and if CLUE wants to share resources next year it can be discussed but for this year any changes were out of the question. > > > Can we please transcend the petty bureaucracy and games playing, folks? > There is SO much that needs to be done, and such a limited amount of > resources. There are good people in GTALUG and CLUE and throughout the > community, yet Queen's Park is the most anti-open-source province in the > country. Why is co-operation necessary to help fix this so much of a > minefield? Why is GTALUG the only user group not to respond, let alone > work together? > There is no minefield. GTALUG has as its mandate to promote local groups, to develop local relations, and to run several meetings. You are asking GTALUG to expand its scope to include provincial and national issues. Now this means that we have to consider carefully our role. For example, we have no control over our members or the community at large, so had you put a request to this list asking for volunteers no one would have objected. If you had put a notice of some open source advocacy event and asked the list to support that no one had minded. The point though is you are asking directly for help from GTALUG and this means that GTALUG's board must consider if it wants to expand its role. As an informal group we have done it in the past so its not out of the question to do it in the future. GTALUG is treading carefully simply because we do represent the largest city in Canada, a city that many people dislike simply on principal. We do not wish to tread on other peoples toes even if by accident. For this reason alone many of the things GTALUG does is done in the background without much fan fair. You ranting on this list about not getting any cooperation is the fast way to be ignored. Now seeing that you have managed to speak to three board members about this topic in the last month or so, and none of them seem to be impressed enough with what you were saying to pursue it, you should start wondering if you are communicating the ideas correctly. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 20:33:31 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:33:31 -0400 Subject: RPM trouble in rescue mode In-Reply-To: <20060404173738.GA6089-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org>; from tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org on Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 01:37:38PM -0400 References: <20060404173738.GA6089@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060404163331.B10509@diamond.ss.org> I have no idea what this means, but I do have some advise: - test the rpm you are trying to install (rpm --test ). This should give you that warm and fuzzy feeling that your rpm isn't pooched. - the worst case scenerio what you may need to do is 'upgrade' your installation back to the original. This means put in the RedHat CD and choose to the upgrade path. Hope I helped. Bill On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 01:37:38PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm trying to recover a broken system using Redhat's rescue mode (Redhat > AS 4). I have the root file system mounted and I've chroot'ed. When > trying to install some RPMs, up2date fails with 'exit status 255'. No > further explaination is given. I tried using rpm instead of up2date and > I had the same error. What does this mean and how to I fix it? > > -- > Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux > System Administrator | Uptime 31 days > http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 21:07:23 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:07:23 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <20060404160051.A10509-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <20060404160051.A10509@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4432E00B.2070401@telly.org> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >Yet you have no problem airing out all the issues you have on the same public mailing list. You wonder why the GTALUG board doesn't take you seriously, it is simply you choose to attack every policy decision they make publicly on this list. > > Whether I agree with all of GTALUG's positions or not, I still see value in co-operation in the service of the community. When I speak on this list it is not as a representative of anyone. When I asked to speak to GTALUG it was in my capacity as ExecDir of CLUE. The co-operation I ask is with CLUE, not with me. There is no need to make things personal; it is important and professional to recognize that community need overrides personal differences. If there is a complaint with doing this on the list then I invite anyone on the Board to engage in a dialogue offline. >All the official CLUE mailings that come to me are from Bill Trayner. > > Yes, Bill is still deeply involved, but he's not the only one there. Perhaps if people spent less time asking "who the hell are you?" and more time looking for opportunities to serve the community, we'd all be better off. Even if I didn't represent any group, is GTALUG too busy to provide an audience to a longtime community member with a concrete idea to increase its membership? OTOH, if GTALUG can't separate the personal from the professional, and having someone else from CLUE make the proposal will move this forward faster, just say so. It's too much to ask Bill to come in from Kitchener to address the Board, but I can ask Matt to take my place if that will help. >There is no minefield. GTALUG has as its mandate to promote local groups, to develop local relations, and to run several meetings. You are asking GTALUG to expand its scope to include provincial and national issues. > > The Board of GTALUG doesn't even know what I'm asking because it hasn't given me the opportunity. I am not asking anyone to exceed their mandate, what I'm proposing is a concept well understood by the other groups who are working with us. >The point though is you are asking directly for help from GTALUG > The Board of GTALUG don't _know_ what I'm asking for because I haven't been given the chance to ask. Before you can refuse something you need to know what you're refusing. I again request the opportunity to address the Board of GTALUG, either at a meeting or in offline email. If I am given the chance to speak I believe the Board will find my proposal to have value. If it will help for someone else from CLUE to do this, that's OK too. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 22:49:51 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:49:51 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux Message-ID: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 4 23:36:15 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 19:36:15 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <4432E00B.2070401-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 05:07:23PM -0400 References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <20060404160051.A10509@diamond.ss.org> <4432E00B.2070401@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060404193615.A11871@diamond.ss.org> > > >All the official CLUE mailings that come to me are from Bill Trayner. > > > > > Yes, Bill is still deeply involved, but he's not the only one there. > Perhaps if people spent less time asking "who the hell are you?" and > more time looking for opportunities to serve the community, we'd all be > better off. Even if I didn't represent any group, is GTALUG too busy to > provide an audience to a longtime community member with a concrete idea > to increase its membership? > > OTOH, if GTALUG can't separate the personal from the professional, and > having someone else from CLUE make the proposal will move this forward > faster, just say so. It's too much to ask Bill to come in from Kitchener > to address the Board, but I can ask Matt to take my place if that will help. > > >There is no minefield. GTALUG has as its mandate to promote local groups, to develop local relations, and to run several meetings. You are asking GTALUG to expand its scope to include provincial and national issues. > > > > > The Board of GTALUG doesn't even know what I'm asking because it hasn't > given me the opportunity. I am not asking anyone to exceed their > mandate, what I'm proposing is a concept well understood by the other > groups who are working with us. You have had three different opportunities to explain enough to three different board members. Each of them at the end of your conversation with you felt that the issue can be tabled until after Linux World. I wasn't privy to the individual conversation but I was at the board meeting afterwards where everyone of them agreed it can wait. If your plans are hinged on Linux World, you made no attempt to make them believe this. > > >The point though is you are asking directly for help from GTALUG > > > The Board of GTALUG don't _know_ what I'm asking for because I haven't > been given the chance to ask. Before you can refuse something you need > to know what you're refusing. I don't believe anything has been refused. The simple matter is that you didn't impress the board members enough to believe that you had a workable plan, or that your plan had some kind on time limit. > > I again request the opportunity to address the Board of GTALUG, either > at a meeting or in offline email. If I am given the chance to speak I > believe the Board will find my proposal to have value. If it will help > for someone else from CLUE to do this, that's OK too. > You know if you are seriously looking for a meeting, you can simply convince Herb that your plan is worth pursuing. He can call a board meeting at the drop of a hat. Convincing me is pretty much useless, since I have at best an advisory role on the board. I have no vote but I'm invited, most likely to maintain a level of continuity since I seem to be the only one left that has knowledge of the idiosyncarcies of many things we have done in the past. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 00:32:43 2006 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 20:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060404125659.E9134-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20060405003243.24895.qmail@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> As the link I posted suggests: "photos for security passes or company files can be taken after selection". IANAL but the rule of thumb is that the prospect employer shouldn't ask for something that could be used to discriminate wrongfully a candidate. Things like age or other personal data that the company needs (for insurance coverage for example) can be asked after the job offer is made. I'm a little sensitive since after a job interview last year (for a job posted here by the way) they asked me to fill out a form with personal data, including date of birth. The form was labelled "to be filled out only by candidates who are offered a position" or something of the sort. I pointed that out and they dismissed it "it's OK", and you don't want to come as a jerk if you think you're getting the job. Next day I got an email with a rejection. So I wondered if somebody freaked out when they read about my age - I look much younger :-) Anyways the gods rewarded me with a much better job... Fernando --- billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > The most likely scenerio is that you need to get > some kind of security clearance for the biology lab > at U of T. They do some pretty interesting things > there and they don't want to grant someone access to > a place that routinely deals with diseases that can > kill the population of the city. > > Bill > > On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:26:16AM -0400, Mike > Kallies wrote: > > > > > How to apply: > > > > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > > > > > > > That's irregular. Why do you need an > applicant's > > > > picture? > > > > > > > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't > like > > > > employers asking for photos in a job > application, see: > > > > > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp > > > > > > But, how do you meet the quota, then? > > > > They didn't say what it should be a photo of. > > > > -Mike > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 00:53:33 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 20:53:33 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <4432F80F.6000204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> James Knott wrote: > It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would highly recommend reimage/reinstall as well. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 00:55:52 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 20:55:52 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <4433150D.3080104-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> Fraser Campbell wrote: > It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would highly > recommend reimage/reinstall as well. Of course the ease with which 2,000 machine became irrecoverably infected is definitely a business case for Linux. I was just pointing out that it's good to see MS admitting that reinstall/reimage is best, it might be a while before they start recommending reinstall with Linux though ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 01:10:56 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:10:56 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <44331598.6080206-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <44331920.1040004@rogers.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > Fraser Campbell wrote: > >> It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would >> highly recommend reimage/reinstall as well. > > Of course the ease with which 2,000 machine became irrecoverably > infected is definitely a business case for Linux. > > I was just pointing out that it's good to see MS admitting that > reinstall/reimage is best, it might be a while before they start > recommending reinstall with Linux though ;-) > I provide Windows support for a very large corporation (~190,000 employees) and I really feel sorry for the employees, when I hear of the problems they experience running Windows. If only the powers that be would realize the problems they're causing themselves, by running MS software. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 02:24:47 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:24:47 -0400 Subject: RPM trouble in rescue mode In-Reply-To: <20060404173738.GA6089-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060404173738.GA6089@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604041924p591b2ebfpcd4f2cf4d8548f44@mail.gmail.com> On 4/4/06, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm trying to recover a broken system using Redhat's rescue mode (Redhat > AS 4). I have the root file system mounted and I've chroot'ed. When > trying to install some RPMs, up2date fails with 'exit status 255'. No > further explaination is given. I tried using rpm instead of up2date and > I had the same error. What does this mean and how to I fix it? >From http://www.rpm.org/hintskinks/returncode/ [quote] Summary What do the various rpm return code values mean? I cannot find a chart. Symptom I looked for a return code meaning chart, when RPM returned a non-zero return code, I cannot find an interpertation. I tried to RTFM ... Background Return codes have to have arcane meanings, don't they? This is *nix, after all ... Diagnosis You are thinking too hard. Solution There is presently no deep meaning to non-zero RPM return codes. [/quote] Lol. Anyway, following that there's a list message suggesting the return code is a counter for the number of failed packages. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 02:29:29 2006 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:29:29 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1144204169.21056.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com> I had attempted to advertise a Linux/NUI related promotion in their classifieds sometime ago and they screwed up to placement even though I was well before the deadline. They missed the issue for a time sensitive ad and refused to credit me but rather ran the ad at a later time once my event was over. If you'll notice they are 'Micro$oft centric'. Where do you think all their revenue comes from? Monopoly power...from dealers ads. RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 11:07 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote: > He writes for Hub Canada. > > IIRC, Toronto Computes / The Computer Paper had been getting thinner > and thinner over the years and finally decided some time ago to stop > publishing tabloid-size newspapers and to put out a very thin, > full-color magazine-size paper instead. The new format focuses much > more on gadgets and less on computing. > > Good publication, but IMO not enough Linux coverage. :) > > Jason > > 2006/4/2, Colin McGregor : > > --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan > > > for their respective > > > contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks > > > guys! > > > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > > In looking through the issue I noticed the "Gadget > > Guy" article is by a Sean Carruthers, who according to > > the mini-biography is "a freelance technology > > journalist from Toronto". This is not a name I am > > familiar with, is he on the list here, and just been > > keeping a LOW profile? Or is this someone we should > > encourage to join the list? Or is the above note the > > literal truth, but not the whole truth (i.e.: I could > > say I am from Burlington, Ontario, even though I have > > not lived there since age 8), and has no interest in > > things in Toronto? > > > > > > Colin McGregor > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 03:33:46 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 23:33:46 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060405003243.24895.qmail-n1WsU41tAEyA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org>; from liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 08:32:43PM -0400 References: <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> <20060405003243.24895.qmail@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060404233346.A13203@diamond.ss.org> I agree that it isn't the best way to go about doing it. In fact the best way is to be strictly up front and say, after initial interviews a security check needs to be done and if you pass that a final interview will be conducted. That way you know what you are getting into. The worst situation is when you are offered a job and then a security clearance is asked of you, which is what you are suggesting. That said, the government (and U of T research is about as government as it gets) rarely wants to come out and say the obvious. In this case they will have your name and a picture. They can check against a database of people they consider undesirable before bothering with anything. Bill On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 08:32:43PM -0400, Fernando Duran wrote: > As the link I posted suggests: "photos for security > passes or company files can be taken after selection". > > > IANAL but the rule of thumb is that the prospect > employer shouldn't ask for something that could be > used to discriminate wrongfully a candidate. Things > like age or other personal data that the company needs > (for insurance coverage for example) can be asked > after the job offer is made. > > I'm a little sensitive since after a job interview > last year (for a job posted here by the way) they > asked me to fill out a form with personal data, > including date of birth. The form was labelled "to be > filled out only by candidates who are offered a > position" or something of the sort. I pointed that > out and they dismissed it "it's OK", and you don't > want to come as a jerk if you think you're getting the > job. Next day I got an email with a rejection. So I > wondered if somebody freaked out when they read about > my age - I look much younger :-) > > Anyways the gods rewarded me with a much better job... > > Fernando > > --- billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > The most likely scenerio is that you need to get > > some kind of security clearance for the biology lab > > at U of T. They do some pretty interesting things > > there and they don't want to grant someone access to > > a place that routinely deals with diseases that can > > kill the population of the city. > > > > Bill > > > > On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:26:16AM -0400, Mike > > Kallies wrote: > > > > > > How to apply: > > > > > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > > > > > > > > > That's irregular. Why do you need an > > applicant's > > > > > picture? > > > > > > > > > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't > > like > > > > > employers asking for photos in a job > > application, see: > > > > > > > > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp > > > > > > > > But, how do you meet the quota, then? > > > > > > They didn't say what it should be a photo of. > > > > > > -Mike > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > --------------------- > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 03:48:20 2006 From: paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Paul Osman) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 23:48:20 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060404233346.A13203-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> <20060405003243.24895.qmail@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> <20060404233346.A13203@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On 4-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I agree that it isn't the best way to go about doing it. In fact > the best way is to be strictly up front and say, after initial > interviews a security check needs to be done and if you pass that a > final interview will be conducted. That way you know what you are > getting into. > > The worst situation is when you are offered a job and then a > security clearance is asked of you, which is what you are suggesting. > > That said, the government (and U of T research is about as > government as it gets) rarely wants to come out and say the > obvious. In this case they will have your name and a picture. They > can check against a database of people they consider undesirable > before bothering with anything. > > Bill > This may be the case sometimes, but I used to work in a biology research lab at the University of Toronto and I can assure you that there were no security checks required. These are research facilities, usually employing students and researchers at undergraduate, graduate and postdoctoral levels. I've worked in a couple of other labs at other institutions and I've never had to pass a security check or whatnot. Cheers, Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 03:59:24 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 19:59:24 -0800 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <1144204169.21056.7.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1144204169.21056.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/06, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I had attempted to advertise a Linux/NUI related promotion in their > classifieds sometime ago and they screwed up to placement even though I > was well before the deadline. They missed the issue for a time sensitive > ad and refused to credit me but rather ran the ad at a later time once > my event was over. If you'll notice they are 'Micro$oft centric'. Where > do you think all their revenue comes from? Monopoly power...from dealers > ads. They're a magazine, engaged in selling ads; that's their "bread and butter." The phrase "money not stink" should be relevant here. It seems wasteful for them to throw away a possible regular stream of money from you. Are you really certain that they refused your money out of "Microsoft-centrism," or is it not possible that their classifieds group are overworked, underpaid and screw up frequently overall? -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 04:31:05 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 00:31:05 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <1144204169.21056.7.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1144204169.21056.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20060405003105.3c3b91d6.tleslie@tcn.net> if you paid on no-sign credit card, just charge it back, i would've. -tl On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:29:29 -0400 Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I had attempted to advertise a Linux/NUI related promotion in their > classifieds sometime ago and they screwed up to placement even though I > was well before the deadline. They missed the issue for a time sensitive > ad and refused to credit me but rather ran the ad at a later time once > my event was over. If you'll notice they are 'Micro$oft centric'. Where > do you think all their revenue comes from? Monopoly power...from dealers > ads. > RickT > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > > On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 11:07 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote: > > He writes for Hub Canada. > > > > IIRC, Toronto Computes / The Computer Paper had been getting thinner > > and thinner over the years and finally decided some time ago to stop > > publishing tabloid-size newspapers and to put out a very thin, > > full-color magazine-size paper instead. The new format focuses much > > more on gadgets and less on computing. > > > > Good publication, but IMO not enough Linux coverage. :) > > > > Jason > > > > 2006/4/2, Colin McGregor : > > > --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan > > > > for their respective > > > > contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks > > > > guys! > > > > > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > > > > In looking through the issue I noticed the "Gadget > > > Guy" article is by a Sean Carruthers, who according to > > > the mini-biography is "a freelance technology > > > journalist from Toronto". This is not a name I am > > > familiar with, is he on the list here, and just been > > > keeping a LOW profile? Or is this someone we should > > > encourage to join the list? Or is the above note the > > > literal truth, but not the whole truth (i.e.: I could > > > say I am from Burlington, Ontario, even though I have > > > not lived there since age 8), and has no interest in > > > things in Toronto? > > > > > > > > > Colin McGregor > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 06:11:00 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 02:11:00 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated Message-ID: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> See article at http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9590-6057456.html where Nicholas Negroponte (a fan of linux, if there ever was one) admits the obvious; linux needs to be slimmed down. Here's my take on the root cause... too damn many people trying to re-invent perl. Perl is bad enough itself; it's on OK operating system, but it lacks a lightweight scripting language. However, there seem to be a bunch of perl-clones springing up all over the place. Install half-a-dozen apps, and you'll get tons of dll's - one app will require that you install perl - another app will require that you install python - another app will require that you install PHP - another app will require that you install QT - another app will require that you install GTK - another app will require that you install Java - another app will require that you install Ruby ...and the list goes on and on. Install several apps, and you're using a couple of gigs worth of libraries/dlls. Launch several apps at once, and if you don't have a couple of gigs of RAM to simultaneously hold all the dlls and libraries, you'll be swapping big time. Linux does need a dictator to depracate some of the dll-madness. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 07:24:25 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 03:24:25 -0400 Subject: Negroponte to Gates: I think we need to collaborate and not go to war. Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604050024j18856c4wcba85c9279056ecc@mail.gmail.com> Glad to see Negroponte didn't take Gates' comments laying down: "Jeez, get a decent computer where you can actually read the text, and you're not sitting there cranking the thing while you're trying to type," Gates said at a Washington, D.C., conference last month. "It's not about a weak computer," Negroponte fired back Tuesday. "It's about a slim, thin, fast computer." Negroponte added that his organization already was working with Microsoft to develop a version of the supercheap machine that would run a stripped-down version of Windows. "So jeez, why criticize me in public?" he complained. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/265508_laptop05.html -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 07:29:10 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:29:10 +0300 (IDT) Subject: voip in Canada Message-ID: Hi all, I have been reading about this: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060404.wvoipp0404/BNStory/Technology/home and I would like to know what the real real situation is, among Linux users. I am an Asterisk user and part time developer (i.e. I write small patches that solve my problems). Of course I am asking from the Linux point of view. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 07:49:47 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:49:47 +0300 (IDT) Subject: [ot]: how they crossed over the Behring straits Message-ID: A spectacular picture: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060405.wdip0405/PhotoGallery01?slot=8 that ice looks really thin to me. Scary. What's the plan if one steps through it ? Has anyone got more links on the subject of the straits-crossing on ice or water ? This is not a Linux issue (well, it remotely relates to penguins ...) but I cannot find info on this due to search engine pollution. Private replies are welcome. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 08:01:07 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:01:07 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405061100.GA7763-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > cause... too damn many people trying to re-invent perl. Perl is bad > enough itself; it's on OK operating system, but it lacks a lightweight > scripting language. However, there seem to be a bunch of perl-clones Imho Perl is not so bad but I wish they had not obfuscated the manpages ... Anyway shipping a Linux distro with 2,500 applications preinstalled requires four nines for zero bugs. Also the dependency tree is at least three deep for most applications. Unless something will be done about this soon (esp. dependencies) bad things will start happening. A 3-deep dependency tree is not sustainable imho. Maybe partially precompiled libraries can reduce the depth of the dependency tree. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 08:10:18 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 04:10:18 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> Peter wrote: > >> cause... too damn many people trying to re-invent perl. Perl is bad >> enough itself; it's on OK operating system, but it lacks a lightweight >> scripting language. However, there seem to be a bunch of perl-clones > > Imho Perl is not so bad but I wish they had not obfuscated the manpages ... > > Anyway shipping a Linux distro with 2,500 applications preinstalled > requires four nines for zero bugs. Also the dependency tree is at least > three deep for most applications. Unless something will be done about > this soon (esp. dependencies) bad things will start happening. A 3-deep > dependency tree is not sustainable imho. Maybe partially precompiled > libraries can reduce the depth of the dependency tree. Take a look at klik then. I haven't used it myself, but it seems to beis gaining a decent following. Now of course, it is for desktop apps, but still... You'll notice, however, that OpenOffice is not available anywhere on the site ;) http://klik.atekon.de/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 09:02:28 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 04:02:28 -0500 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <44337B6A.2040401-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <200604050502.29041.marc@lijour.net> On April 5, 2006 04:10 am, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Peter wrote: > >> cause... too damn many people trying to re-invent perl. Perl is bad > >> enough itself; it's on OK operating system, but it lacks a lightweight > >> scripting language. However, there seem to be a bunch of perl-clones > > > > Imho Perl is not so bad but I wish they had not obfuscated the manpages > > ... > > > > Anyway shipping a Linux distro with 2,500 applications preinstalled > > requires four nines for zero bugs. Also the dependency tree is at least > > three deep for most applications. Unless something will be done about > > this soon (esp. dependencies) bad things will start happening. A 3-deep > > dependency tree is not sustainable imho. Maybe partially precompiled > > libraries can reduce the depth of the dependency tree. > > Take a look at klik then. I haven't used it myself, but it seems to beis > gaining a decent following. Now of course, it is for desktop apps, but > still... You'll notice, however, that OpenOffice is not available > anywhere on the site ;) > http://klik.atekon.de/ > > Jamon Mandriva also came up with an easier install scheme with the kiosk: http://wwwnew.mandriva.com/en/company/press/pr/mandriva_pioneers_new_linux_distribution_systems However, this does not solve the dependency issue (RPMs, debs, still have to depend one from the others). Other tools are addressing this problem. Actually the problem is so complex that the current tools do not find the optimum solution for installing packages (and sometimes they find none when there is one). For example, history (http://www.edos-project.org/xwiki/bin/Main/history) is a program for querying a Debian packages stored in a MySQL database filled with debsqlfill. It can be directly used on the command line, but it also has an advanced interactive mode. You can ask it about dependencies between deb packages. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 10:11:54 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:11:54 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <200604050502.29041.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> <200604050502.29041.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Marc Lijour wrote: > Mandriva also came up with an easier install scheme with the kiosk: > http://wwwnew.mandriva.com/en/company/press/pr/mandriva_pioneers_new_linux_distribution_systems ,,, snip What I was trying to say is, that the depth of the dependency tree must be reduced. No package manager will fix that, but prelinking libraries into larger libraries by usage group, and distributing those as packages would likely fix the problem. As an example, most KDE apps depend on a dozen libraries, each. It makes sense to combine that dozen libraries into one, and distribute that as a single package. Then a set of KDE libs would depend only one that (large) package. If a library changes in the package, then a new edition of the package appears, and *that* is upgraded, thus guaranteeing that the dependencies are maintained. This effectively shifts the responsability to keep track of dependencies to the aggregator, from the end user where they are now. In fact, this is already so, but it is neither explicit nor enforced. No new package manager is required, but someone has to start building and maintaining the aggregate libs. The people in the best position to do this, are large distribution aggregators, like Debian, RH and SuSe. This would also reduce the pain that occurs when libraries are partially upgraded and the whole slew of dependencies must be upgraded to follow. Later, applications that depend on the aggregate could be compiled against an aggregate stub layer, added to the aggregate and exporting its required functions. That might open the way to dynamic (runtime) library selection sometime in the future. $0.002, from a guy who has been to dependency hell and back several times in the last ~10 years of continuous Linux use, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 11:15:44 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 07:15:44 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> <200604050502.29041.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604050415w78a91c22s58bc3f405bd79f72@mail.gmail.com> On 4/5/06, Peter wrote: > No new package manager is required, but someone has to start building > and maintaining the aggregate libs. The people in the best position to > do this, are large distribution aggregators, like Debian, RH and SuSe. > This would also reduce the pain that occurs when libraries are partially > upgraded and the whole slew of dependencies must be upgraded to follow. > Later, applications that depend on the aggregate could be compiled > against an aggregate stub layer, added to the aggregate and exporting > its required functions. That might open the way to dynamic (runtime) > library selection sometime in the future. How does an idea of this scope get moved upstream - would (or could/should) the FSF and OSDL "route" communications in this type of scenario? > $0.002, from a guy who has been to dependency hell and back several > times in the last ~10 years of continuous Linux use, Is that before or after tax? ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 11:55:46 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:55:46 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604050415w78a91c22s58bc3f405bd79f72-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> <200604050502.29041.marc@lijour.net> <99a6c38f0604050415w78a91c22s58bc3f405bd79f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/5/06, Peter wrote: >> No new package manager is required, but someone has to start building >> and maintaining the aggregate libs. The people in the best position to >> do this, are large distribution aggregators, like Debian, RH and SuSe. >> This would also reduce the pain that occurs when libraries are partially >> upgraded and the whole slew of dependencies must be upgraded to follow. >> Later, applications that depend on the aggregate could be compiled >> against an aggregate stub layer, added to the aggregate and exporting >> its required functions. That might open the way to dynamic (runtime) >> library selection sometime in the future. > > How does an idea of this scope get moved upstream - would (or > could/should) the FSF and OSDL "route" communications in this type of > scenario? I have no idea. Eventually someone will tell someone who will tell someone (repeat 6 times) and then someone who can do something about it will hear about it. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 12:25:25 2006 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:25:25 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <44337B6A.2040401-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 4/5/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > Take a look at klik then. I haven't used it myself, but it seems to beis > gaining a decent following. Now of course, it is for desktop apps, but > still... You'll notice, however, that OpenOffice is not available > anywhere on the site ;) > http://klik.atekon.de/ > > Jamon > Actually, OpenOffice is on this page: http://klik.atekon.de/popular.htm Doesn't look like the most recent version though. I've used klik while running live version of Kanotix (custom Knoppix distro) and the apps seem to work great. All in a single file that you can store on a USB partition or wherever. -Steve. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:19:41 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:19:41 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 Message-ID: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> Hi I am using a K8V SE deluxe but it is getting old and I had a couple of issues with it. The last one being that the VIA chipset cannot recognize SATA-II drives.... For the record, I bought the Maxtor Diamond 10 and it comes without jumper settings (I know it is not a IDE drive) hence I can't tell it to emulate SATA (1) as other drives permit. Do you know of a good motherboard out there? Thanks, marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:25:19 2006 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:25:19 -0400 Subject: April TUX Magazine In-Reply-To: <20060405003105.3c3b91d6.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <442E06CC.2080606@utoronto.ca> <20060402141852.57266.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1144204169.21056.7.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20060405003105.3c3b91d6.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <1144243519.4173.13.camel@spot1.localhost.com> I had a surprising amount of resistance, confusion, grief, repeating stories ad nauseam from the order desk and supervisors concerning my simple NUI ad for a non profit group in the classifieds. First and foremost TC/Computer Paper later HUB were surprisingly unconcerned with weather my ad was placed or not and the billing dept was more trouble to deal with than was worth. If you'll notice they've dropped classifieds all together...so make your own conclusion. As was pointed out 'rags' make their $$ with advertising. I'm sure if I bought a whole page there wouldn't have been a problem. RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 00:31 -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > if you paid on no-sign credit card, just charge it back, i would've. > > -tl > > On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:29:29 -0400 > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > > I had attempted to advertise a Linux/NUI related promotion in their > > classifieds sometime ago and they screwed up to placement even though I > > was well before the deadline. They missed the issue for a time sensitive > > ad and refused to credit me but rather ran the ad at a later time once > > my event was over. If you'll notice they are 'Micro$oft centric'. Where > > do you think all their revenue comes from? Monopoly power...from dealers > > ads. > > RickT > > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > > > > > On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 11:07 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > He writes for Hub Canada. > > > > > > IIRC, Toronto Computes / The Computer Paper had been getting thinner > > > and thinner over the years and finally decided some time ago to stop > > > publishing tabloid-size newspapers and to put out a very thin, > > > full-color magazine-size paper instead. The new format focuses much > > > more on gadgets and less on computing. > > > > > > Good publication, but IMO not enough Linux coverage. :) > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > 2006/4/2, Colin McGregor : > > > > --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > > > Just wanted to say good job to both Colin and Evan > > > > > for their respective > > > > > contributions to the April issue of TUX. Thanks > > > > > guys! > > > > > > > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > > > > > > In looking through the issue I noticed the "Gadget > > > > Guy" article is by a Sean Carruthers, who according to > > > > the mini-biography is "a freelance technology > > > > journalist from Toronto". This is not a name I am > > > > familiar with, is he on the list here, and just been > > > > keeping a LOW profile? Or is this someone we should > > > > encourage to join the list? Or is the above note the > > > > literal truth, but not the whole truth (i.e.: I could > > > > say I am from Burlington, Ontario, even though I have > > > > not lived there since age 8), and has no interest in > > > > things in Toronto? > > > > > > > > > > > > Colin McGregor > > > > -- > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > > > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:30:11 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:30:11 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405061100.GA7763-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:11:00AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > See article at http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9590-6057456.html where > Nicholas Negroponte (a fan of linux, if there ever was one) admits the > obvious; linux needs to be slimmed down. Here's my take on the root > cause... too damn many people trying to re-invent perl. Perl is bad > enough itself; it's on OK operating system, but it lacks a lightweight > scripting language. However, there seem to be a bunch of perl-clones > springing up all over the place. > > Install half-a-dozen apps, and you'll get tons of dll's > - one app will require that you install perl > - another app will require that you install python > - another app will require that you install PHP > - another app will require that you install QT > - another app will require that you install GTK > - another app will require that you install Java > - another app will require that you install Ruby > > ...and the list goes on and on. Install several apps, and you're using > a couple of gigs worth of libraries/dlls. Launch several apps at once, > and if you don't have a couple of gigs of RAM to simultaneously hold all > the dlls and libraries, you'll be swapping big time. Linux does need a > dictator to depracate some of the dll-madness. Actually I think you are entirely wrong. Linux is so efficient at the use of memory for shared objects that it only loads one copy no matter how many programs and users are using it. The scripting languages are very small, and allow for even smaller applications, while on windows you would generally get a huge bloated binary instead which shares nothing with anyone else. QT and GTK, well yes those are quite bloated and I am not sure why. Java is just useless bloat in my opinion and should be used for anything. I have no problem running perl and python and such on a 486/66 wiht 48M ram without swapping. QT and GTK and Java would all be very very bad for it. Those are the real problem. Feel free to avoid all X applications, or at least any that use anything more than athena widgets. Good luck on that. It's simpler to just not use X, or at least anything beyong twm/xterm. Not a bad idea in general though. Very efficient. Of course all of these are applications that you can _choose_ to install. They are NOT linux (they all run the same way on solaris, hpux, aix, etc). If your linux distribution of choice insist on installing all that by default, maybe you should find a better distribution that doesn't tell you what to install by default. So there may be a problem of bloat in distribution default installs, but that is not a linux problem. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:30:58 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:30:58 -0400 Subject: RPM trouble in rescue mode In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604041924p591b2ebfpcd4f2cf4d8548f44-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060404173738.GA6089@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <99a6c38f0604041924p591b2ebfpcd4f2cf4d8548f44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060405133058.GA30142@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 10:24:47PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: >Solution >There is presently no deep meaning to non-zero RPM return codes. >[/quote] > >Lol. > >Anyway, following that there's a list message suggesting the return >code is a counter for the number of failed packages. :) What remains is why the RPM refused to install. I've tried rebuilding the RPM database but the problem persists. I found some articles that hint that SElinux may be the problem. As I am using the CD's rescue mode, I don't understand how SElinux could be turned on let alone how to turn it off. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 32 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:32:40 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:32:40 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:01:07AM +0300, Peter wrote: > Imho Perl is not so bad but I wish they had not obfuscated the manpages > ... > > Anyway shipping a Linux distro with 2,500 applications preinstalled > requires four nines for zero bugs. Also the dependency tree is at least > three deep for most applications. Unless something will be done about > this soon (esp. dependencies) bad things will start happening. A 3-deep > dependency tree is not sustainable imho. Maybe partially precompiled > libraries can reduce the depth of the dependency tree. I don't have problems with the dependancy tree on debian. Depth is not an issue. Correctness is. If the dependancy list is complete and only contains what is needed, then it will simply work, no matter if you end up with a 50 level dependancy. Partially precompiled libraries doesn't make sense, and just sounds like a huge mess. Besides the dependancies are handled entirely by the packaging system, all you ahve to do is tell it what packages you want installed and it handles everything else for you. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:47:04 2006 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:47:04 -0400 Subject: Negroponte to Gates: I think we need to collaborate and not go to war. In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604050024j18856c4wcba85c9279056ecc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604050024j18856c4wcba85c9279056ecc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1144244824.4173.18.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Bill Gates the philanthropist and Bill Gates the businessman are in conflict," Negroponte said after the speech. "I think we need to collaborate and not go to war." IMHO Gates/Ballmer are egomaniacs - Obsessive preoccupation with the self. One of the first things taught in program design (the course which I took anyways...) are the concept of 'egoless programming'. On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 03:24 -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Glad to see Negroponte didn't take Gates' comments laying down: > > "Jeez, get a decent computer where you can actually read the text, and > you're not sitting there cranking the thing while you're trying to > type," Gates said at a Washington, D.C., conference last month. > > "It's not about a weak computer," Negroponte fired back Tuesday. "It's > about a slim, thin, fast computer." Negroponte added that his > organization already was working with Microsoft to develop a version > of the supercheap machine that would run a stripped-down version of > Windows. "So jeez, why criticize me in public?" he complained. > > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/265508_laptop05.html > > -- > Scott Elcomb > psema4.gotdns.com > > "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be > peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care > enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a > revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We > can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." > > - John F. Kennedy > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 13:52:45 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:52:45 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 In-Reply-To: <200604050919.42106.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20060405135245.GG4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:19:41AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > I am using a K8V SE deluxe but it is getting old and I had a couple of issues > with it. The last one being that the VIA chipset cannot recognize SATA-II > drives.... They are _supposed_ to be backwards compatible. > For the record, I bought the Maxtor Diamond 10 and it comes without jumper > settings (I know it is not a IDE drive) hence I can't tell it to emulate SATA > (1) as other drives permit. > > Do you know of a good motherboard out there? Well you are not the first person I have read about with problems on that type of drive. I saw one person on lkml that had two maxtors, with a slightly different model code. One worked, the other was unstable. Are you running the latest bios version for the board? (Latest is 1402 from March 2nd, 2006). So far I have been very happy with an A8V Deluxe, although I have not run SATA2 drives on it, just a pair of WD 250G SATA1 drives. There are people seeing problems with maxtor drives on intel, via, sil, and other controllers. I think maxtor has screwed up their sata firmware (just as seagate had in the past). Here is a thread from last month on lkml about it: http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0603.2/0295.html Many people seeing odd problems it seems, and saying changing disks to hitachi or wd or whatever makes the problem go away. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:02:08 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:02:08 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 In-Reply-To: <20060405135245.GG4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> <20060405135245.GG4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200604051002.08370.marc@lijour.net> On April 5, 2006 09:52 am, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:19:41AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > > I am using a K8V SE deluxe but it is getting old and I had a couple of > > issues with it. The last one being that the VIA chipset cannot recognize > > SATA-II drives.... > > They are _supposed_ to be backwards compatible. This is what I heard but look at this: http://support.asus.com/faq/faq.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=K8V%20SE%20Deluxe and this http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1337&p_created=1112379341&p_sid=Zo1GRuIh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NSZwX3Byb2RzPTIwMyZwX2NhdHM9MCZwX3B2PTEuMjAzOzIudTAmcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9mbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD12aWE*&p_li=&p_topview=1 The problem is that the Maxtor drive has not jumper... > > > For the record, I bought the Maxtor Diamond 10 and it comes without > > jumper settings (I know it is not a IDE drive) hence I can't tell it to > > emulate SATA (1) as other drives permit. > > > > Do you know of a good motherboard out there? > > Well you are not the first person I have read about with problems on > that type of drive. I saw one person on lkml that had two maxtors, with > a slightly different model code. One worked, the other was unstable. > > Are you running the latest bios version for the board? (Latest is 1402 > from March 2nd, 2006). I downloaded one yesterday. But the last one seems to be 1007? http://support.asus.com/download/download.aspx?SLanguage=en-us > > So far I have been very happy with an A8V Deluxe, although I have not > run SATA2 drives on it, just a pair of WD 250G SATA1 drives. > > There are people seeing problems with maxtor drives on intel, via, sil, > and other controllers. I think maxtor has screwed up their sata > firmware (just as seagate had in the past). > > Here is a thread from last month on lkml about it: > http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0603.2/0295.html Mine > > Many people seeing odd problems it seems, and saying changing disks to > hitachi or wd or whatever makes the problem go away. I should try that. Thanks. > > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:07:07 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:07:07 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 In-Reply-To: <200604051002.08370.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> <20060405135245.GG4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200604051002.08370.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20060405140706.GH4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:02:08AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > This is what I heard but look at this: > http://support.asus.com/faq/faq.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=K8V%20SE%20Deluxe > > and this > http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1337&p_created=1112379341&p_sid=Zo1GRuIh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NSZwX3Byb2RzPTIwMyZwX2NhdHM9MCZwX3B2PTEuMjAzOzIudTAmcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9mbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD12aWE*&p_li=&p_topview=1 > > The problem is that the Maxtor drive has not jumper... I guess don't buy maxtor if you have a via chipset then (although having read all the problems lately, I will just stick to the WD drives I have used for a number of years now with no problems). > I downloaded one yesterday. But the last one seems to be 1007? > http://support.asus.com/download/download.aspx?SLanguage=en-us Well it sounds like the hardware simply doesn't like the new drives. Odd, I would have thought the drives would default to SATA1 mode until they could negotiate faster with the controller. I guess they don't all do that. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:36:02 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Apr 2006 10:36:02 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <4432B5CC.3010101-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> Message-ID: Evan Leibovitch writes: > Why is GTALUG the only user group not to respond, let alone work > together? I think it's 'eddies in the space-time continuum.' Maybe you guys can 'chat' at LinuxWorld. Or, at least, glare at each other from across the aisle from your booths. ;) -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:37:47 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Apr 2006 10:37:47 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060404125659.E9134-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: > On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:26:16AM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > > > > How to apply: > > > > > Please send a detailed CV with photo > > > > > > > > That's irregular. Why do you need an applicant's > > > > picture? > > > > > > > > The Canadian Human Rights Commission doesn't like > > > > employers asking for photos in a job application, see: > > > > http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/screening_employment-en.asp > > > > > > But, how do you meet the quota, then? > > > > They didn't say what it should be a photo of. I think that they did. I read it as 'send a detailed CV with a photo of said CV'. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:40:56 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:40:56 -0400 Subject: voip in Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92ee967a0604050740l37b8d9f6sdd1a6a0df0f9332b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/5/06, Peter wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have been reading about this: > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060404.wvoipp0404/BNStory/Technology/home > > and I would like to know what the real real situation is, among Linux > users. I am an Asterisk user and part time developer (i.e. I write > small patches that solve my problems). Of course I am asking from the > Linux point of view. Myself and some coworkers have been using dedicated hardware to get VoIP service. One fellow I know uses it to get a 416 area code from Barrie, another from Oshawa. There's no PC involved, just a D-link box hanging off your DSL or Cable. The downside is that my 3web service went down, and their lousy tech support means I'll have to spend an hour pay-per-minute on my cell so as to get my phoneline back. So far, I'm not impressed with either service. The VoIP has been of unreliable quality and 3web has offered terrible service. I'll probably call Rogers today to see what they can do. I'm sure their service is equally terrible, and more expensive, but maybe they can get the line running again. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:44:37 2006 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:44:37 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> Message-ID: <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 10:36, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > I think it's "Eddie's in the space-time continuum." Eddie now prefers to be known as Edward. Does every TLUG post at this reply depth decay to bad jokes, pop-culture references and puns? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:59:09 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Apr 2006 10:59:09 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <200604051044.38625.interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> Message-ID: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org writes: > Does every TLUG post at this reply depth decay to bad jokes, > pop-culture references and puns? Nah. It usually decays to someone complaining about the bad jokes, pop-culture references and puns ;) HTH, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 14:55:10 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:55:10 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <200604051044.38625.interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> Message-ID: <1144248910.4433da4ee9c5a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org: > On Wednesday 05 April 2006 10:36, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > > I think it's "Eddie's in the space-time continuum." > > Eddie now prefers to be known as Edward. > > Does every TLUG post at this reply depth decay to bad jokes, > pop-culture references and puns? Sir, the possibility of that not happening is approximately 3,720 to 1. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 15:48:36 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:48:36 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <442BF2AB.8010505@telly.org> <442C51EF.8090708@telly.org> <20060404123325.C9134@diamond.ss.org> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> Message-ID: <4433E6D4.5080704@telly.org> G. Matthew Rice wrote: >Maybe you guys can 'chat' at LinuxWorld. Or, at least, glare at each other >from across the aisle from your booths. ;) > > The organizers knew better, I suspect. ;-) CLUE is near the centre of the show floor in #704. GTALUG is against the wall at #108. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 15:53:02 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:53:02 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20060405155302.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:37:47AM -0400, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > I think that they did. I read it as 'send a detailed CV with a photo of said > CV'. A photo of the CV? As in a photo of the paper? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 16:56:07 2006 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:56:07 -0400 Subject: Domain registrars Message-ID: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> I'm looking to register some domain names and just park them for now. Google pointed me here: http://www.webnames.ca/ Anyone got an opinion on this provider? Any alternate suggestions? I want to register to .ca and .com domains. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From systems-qMtYMQfCx00 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 17:17:09 2006 From: systems-qMtYMQfCx00 at public.gmane.org (Kyril Stoikopoulos) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:17:09 -0400 Subject: Domain registrars References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> Message-ID: <000901c658d4$c54dd040$cb00a8c0@stlc.com> I use www.domainsatcost.ca and have had no problems cost about $15/yr to register a domain and it allows you to change everything by signing in. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul DiRezze" To: "TLUG mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:56 PM Subject: [TLUG]: Domain registrars > I'm looking to register some domain names and just park them for now. > Google pointed me here: > > http://www.webnames.ca/ > > Anyone got an opinion on this provider? Any alternate suggestions? > > I want to register to .ca and .com domains. > > paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/301 - Release Date: 04/04/2006 > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 17:29:17 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:29:17 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405133240.GF4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Besides the dependancies are handled entirely by the packaging system, > all you ahve to do is tell it what packages you want installed and it > handles everything else for you. Yes, assuming all the packages come from the same distribution and generation. G*d help you if you want to mix from various distros or generations, however. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 17:41:01 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:41:01 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org writes: >> Does every TLUG post at this reply depth decay to bad jokes, >> pop-culture references and puns? > > Nah. It usually decays to someone complaining about the bad jokes, > pop-culture references and puns ;) And eventually someone gets fed up and invokes the Godwin clause. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 17:53:40 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:53:40 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> Message-ID: <44340424.8030509@telly.org> Peter wrote: > > eventually someone gets fed up and invokes the Godwin clause. Can that be done without the mention of a certain political party? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 17:59:13 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:59:13 -0400 Subject: Semi-pro or pro graphics people Message-ID: <92ee967a0604051059od811a35we581549749fda2b9@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, For the past several years, I've participated in a Linux event called the "Linuxbierwanderung". A friend of mine is hosting it this year, and we seem to be short somebody to help develop a T-Shirt design. I was hoping that I could get her in touch with someone with an interest in Linux and a flare for graphics work to develop a tasteful and interesting graphic. I can help her arrange samples of previous years designs so as to get an idea of what we're trying to do. The shirts won't be printed locally, as travelling with them is a pain. As usual, we have to put faith in an out-of-town production house. BTW, this year's event is in Lithuania, I'm uncertain if I can make it myself, too many personal commitments at the moment. This would be a rare opportunity for most people to see a part of the world they'd normally have no reason to visit. http://www.mkuncaitis.com/lbw06/ Thanks, -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 18:06:42 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:06:42 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <44340424.8030509-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> <44340424.8030509@telly.org> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604051106k25edf8b1k80c913f06cd1484c@mail.gmail.com> > > eventually someone gets fed up and invokes the Godwin clause. > > Can that be done without the mention of a certain political party? Did the Nazis' ration saurkraut? -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 18:08:42 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:08:42 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405133240.GF4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200604051408.43293.marc@lijour.net> On April 5, 2006 09:32 am, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:01:07AM +0300, Peter wrote: > > Imho Perl is not so bad but I wish they had not obfuscated the manpages > > ... > > > > Anyway shipping a Linux distro with 2,500 applications preinstalled > > requires four nines for zero bugs. Also the dependency tree is at least > > three deep for most applications. Unless something will be done about > > this soon (esp. dependencies) bad things will start happening. A 3-deep > > dependency tree is not sustainable imho. Maybe partially precompiled > > libraries can reduce the depth of the dependency tree. > > I don't have problems with the dependancy tree on debian. Depth is not > an issue. Correctness is. If the dependancy list is complete and only > contains what is needed, then it will simply work, no matter if you end > up with a 50 level dependancy. > > Partially precompiled libraries doesn't make sense, and just sounds like > a huge mess. > > Besides the dependancies are handled entirely by the packaging system, > all you ahve to do is tell it what packages you want installed and it > handles everything else for you. As soon as we have conflict nodes, installability becomes NP-hard. http://www.edos-project.org/xwiki/bin/Main/Wp2Complexity And the package management tools are far from perfect. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 18:37:35 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:37:35 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 08:29:17PM +0300, Peter wrote: > Yes, assuming all the packages come from the same distribution and > generation. G*d help you if you want to mix from various distros or > generations, however. Well that does make it harder. Debian's system at least tries to deal with that, and usually manages. There are people who don't know what they are doing making packages with crappy dependancies however which break things. The system can't protect you from human error. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 18:38:44 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:38:44 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <200604051408.43293.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200604051408.43293.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20060405183844.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:08:42PM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > As soon as we have conflict nodes, installability becomes NP-hard. > http://www.edos-project.org/xwiki/bin/Main/Wp2Complexity > > And the package management tools are far from perfect. I don't see why. If exim and postfix conflict, then you can only install one of them at a time. Simple to solve. Works for me. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 19:04:21 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405061100.GA7763-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: This is a topic near and dear to my heart. We who are old timers remember when UNIX ran very well on a machine with 256K -- as a timesharing system. The stuff that has been added since is very valuable, but the cost has not seemed in any way proportional. Cost is: computer resources (memory, disk space, CPU), human resources (API size, tool complement size, documentation size), and probably others that are not at the top of my mind. It basically boils down to complexity. It is very hard to simplify anything. The only generally successful technique is to start over. (Decremental Improvement(TM) is possible but hard work for usually meagre results. Best such results are achieved when attacking low-hanging fruit that is not visible to an interface.) It is very hard to get buy-in for starting over. The best way to start over is to start from a different space and converge (collide) with the old space. Think of Christensen's disruptive technology http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/christensen.htm Examples from within the Linux world: Knoppix, Tom's Root Boot, hand-held distros, LTSP. ================ Good design is slow and careful. The growth of software is often pell mell. ================ Complexity is very cheap in computer software. Much cheaper than any other medium that I can think of (other than the written word). We therefore get way too much. ================ Modularity is the main tool to fight complexity. Complaints about dependencies may relate to bad modularity. ================ A random collection of things that currently annoy me: - XML config files. - packaging that isn't portable - enormous libraries (glibc, gtk, qt, ...) - overgrown scripting languages (bash, for example) - boot time - unfathomable interconnections (e.g. whatever it is that mounts USB devices when I plug them into my Fedora Core 5 system) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 19:38:28 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:38:28 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405183735.GJ4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 08:29:17PM +0300, Peter wrote: >> Yes, assuming all the packages come from the same distribution and >> generation. G*d help you if you want to mix from various distros or >> generations, however. > > Well that does make it harder. Debian's system at least tries to deal > with that, and usually manages. There are people who don't know what > they are doing making packages with crappy dependancies however which > break things. The system can't protect you from human error. Speaking of which, since human error is unavoidable, who would you prefer to err, the packager who makes 1 library from 12, or 10,000 users who cannot make two nines between them ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 20:01:20 2006 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:01:20 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 In-Reply-To: <200604050919.42106.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <44342210.1020700@rogers.com> It's not a motherboard per se, but I've been very impressed with my Shuttle XPC (SN25P). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 20:07:41 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:07:41 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: ... > that are not at the top of my mind. It basically boils down to > complexity. Uhuh. And since complexity is here to stay the point is to shift it onto someone who can handle it. The aggregator for example. > It is very hard to simplify anything. The only generally successful > technique is to start over. And the costliest ? > Examples from within the Linux world: Knoppix, Tom's Root Boot, > hand-held distros, LTSP. But none of these are *less* complex. They are *more* complex, however, the complexity is better hidden from the user. > Good design is slow and careful. The growth of software is often pell > mell. Yes. And, worse, nobody can pay for/wait for good design. The only way to live with contemporary c**p software is to run it on systems that can take almost any abuse gracefully (by virtue of them having been abused and improved to resist the abuse for 30 years). Like *nix. > Complexity is very cheap in computer software. Much cheaper than any > other medium that I can think of (other than the written word). We > therefore get way too much. Complexity is way too cheap imho. Few people realize what can of worms lies hidden in a 100-line 'flawless' VB or Tcl (or Javascript) program that relies on a million lines of library code to run. They will find out, at the latest, when the (one of) the library(es) is updated, thus triggering bug #878655c.bis . Then it will turn out that the bug requires a complete rewrite of a module that has been unmaintained since 1989. Then someone writes a workaround in the high level code. Then the 100-line clean code becomes a 180-line unclean code. Three episodes later, you have what your web browser loads as Javascript when you browse the average media website nowadays. And you (the user) *trust* it to be relatively safe and mostly work. Hey, there are people who believe in Santa, and there is no way to prove them wrong. Not that it's bad to believe in Santa or anything. > Modularity is the main tool to fight complexity. Complaints about > dependencies may relate to bad modularity. Yes, but please see above about who is to handle the unavoidable complexity. > - XML config files. XML is a pet peeve of mine. First there were config files, and they were hard to maintain and coordinate. Then there were SQL datbases where one had to also maintain the schema besides using the correct drivers and front end scripts. Then there was HTML which did markup at terrible cost in bandwidth and readability. And then they 'improved' it by generalizing the part that consumed the bandwidth and decided to use *that* to replace configs and SQL. So now it is no longer possible to edit it by hand without putting in about a bug per line edited. Great stuff. Not really. And then your (the developer's) code depends on someone else's implementation of an XML editor and a XML library done by yet another guy. > - packaging that isn't portable That is not so true. Packages can be converted with minimum effort. For example using mc you can 'navigate' inside a package and get what you need or export it etc. > - enormous libraries (glibc, gtk, qt, ...) This is unavoidable. But it is better if someone else than the average user takes care of their cohesiveness, as a working set. > - overgrown scripting languages (bash, for example) Agreed, there should be a fallback simple language, like sh. There is (e.g. ash etc). > - boot time ? it's not so bad. A normal system comes up well under a minute. Oh, you mean KDE boot time ;-) Ok, I understand. ;-) > - unfathomable interconnections (e.g. whatever it is that mounts USB > devices when I plug them into my Fedora Core 5 system) cat /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 20:09:53 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:09:53 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <44340424.8030509-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> <44340424.8030509@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> eventually someone gets fed up and invokes the Godwin clause. > > Can that be done without the mention of a certain political party? I think that a politically correct group can take a hint before the ultimate measure must be taken. I.e. invoking the name of the clause should trigger a Pavlovian reflex and cause the thread to close by itself ;-) With more training, it will no longer be necessary to invoke the name of the clause ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 20:51:46 2006 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:51:46 -0400 Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> <44340424.8030509@telly.org> Message-ID: <44342DE2.1000307@pppoe.ca> Peter wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >>> eventually someone gets fed up and invokes the Godwin clause. >> >> >> Can that be done without the mention of a certain political party? > > > I think that a politically correct group can take a hint before the > ultimate measure must be taken. I.e. invoking the name of the clause > should trigger a Pavlovian reflex and cause the thread to close by > itself ;-) With more training, it will no longer be necessary to > invoke the name of the clause ;-) > Termination of a thread through obscurity? :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 21:04:55 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:04:55 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux World Updates In-Reply-To: <44342DE2.1000307-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20060330145257.13832.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4432B5CC.3010101@telly.org> <200604051044.38625.interlug@weait.net> <44340424.8030509@telly.org> <44342DE2.1000307@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: > Termination of a thread through obscurity? :-) Voluntary, unassisted self-termination of threads by their rise to a higher level of consciousness. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 21:08:40 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:08:40 +0000 Subject: Domain registrars In-Reply-To: <4433F6A7.6050307-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 4/5/06, Paul DiRezze wrote: > I'm looking to register some domain names and just park them for now. > Google pointed me here: > > http://www.webnames.ca/ > > Anyone got an opinion on this provider? Any alternate suggestions? > > I want to register to .ca and .com domains. Here should be an authoritative list of CIRA-approved .ca registrars. http://ro.cira.ca/re_choose_en ICANN accredits registrars for global TLDs such as .com, .info, .org http://www.icann.org/registrars/accredited-list.html For .com, that would include: http://www.verisign.com/information-services/naming-services/com-net-registry/page_002166.html Being an employee of a registry, I officially cannot provide recommendations, though you might find it interesting to discover where I'd have registered my domain cbbrowne.com... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 21:41:21 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 17:41:21 -0400 Subject: RPM trouble in rescue mode In-Reply-To: <20060405133058.GA30142-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060404173738.GA6089@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <99a6c38f0604041924p591b2ebfpcd4f2cf4d8548f44@mail.gmail.com> <20060405133058.GA30142@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <44343981.3070209@utoronto.ca> Neil Watson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 10:24:47PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> Solution >> There is presently no deep meaning to non-zero RPM return codes. >> [/quote] >> >> Lol. >> >> Anyway, following that there's a list message suggesting the return >> code is a counter for the number of failed packages. > > :) What remains is why the RPM refused to install. I've tried > rebuilding the RPM database but the problem persists. I found some > articles that hint that SElinux may be the problem. As I am using the > CD's rescue mode, I don't understand how SElinux could be turned on let > alone how to turn it off. > If it is selinux, I believe you can turn it off by passing selinux=0 as an argument to the kernel when booting the livecd. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 5 23:20:16 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:20:16 -0400 Subject: [ot]: how they crossed over the Behring straits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443450B0.7060605@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > > A spectacular picture: > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060405.wdip0405/PhotoGallery01?slot=8 > > > that ice looks really thin to me. Scary. What's the plan if one steps > through it ? Has anyone got more links on the subject of the > straits-crossing on ice or water ? This is not a Linux issue (well, it > remotely relates to penguins ...) but I cannot find info on this due to > search engine pollution. Private replies are welcome. They probably walked strait across. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 03:02:00 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:02:00 -0400 Subject: Motherboard for AMD64 In-Reply-To: <200604050919.42106.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604050919.42106.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <443484A8.80204@georgetown.wehave.net> Marc Lijour wrote: > I am using a K8V SE deluxe but it is getting old and I had a couple of issues > with it. The last one being that the VIA chipset cannot recognize SATA-II > drives.... > > For the record, I bought the Maxtor Diamond 10 and it comes without jumper > settings (I know it is not a IDE drive) hence I can't tell it to emulate SATA > (1) as other drives permit. > > Do you know of a good motherboard out there? I'm happy with my "ASUS A8N-E ACPI BIOS Revision 1011-004". The chipset fan that it came with it was garbage I've replaced it with a heatsink which seems to work fine. Had a few issues but they've all cleared up since BIOS update: - needed reset button following reboot or shutdown - unknown ide opcode errors for my pata drive I have one SATA and one PATA drive, both Seagate. System has been up 24 hours a day for quite a while (I think I've had it 6 months). -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 03:28:44 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:28:44 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405061100.GA7763-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> On 4/5/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > See article at http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9590-6057456.html where > Nicholas Negroponte (a fan of linux, if there ever was one) admits the > obvious; linux needs to be slimmed down. I disagree. Disk space is cheap and users don't care. It's more important to have nice tools which fit the varying kinds of developers so that better software can be created. Dependancies aren't a problem.. let the package manager handle it. If things get out of hand, it'll get fixed.. All a user cares about is *make it go*. A serious distribution has already balanced things quite nicely and a linux distro still won't take an intimidating amount of drive space to run. Low-end systems are a niche and not a large concern. There are some very good specialized-distributions for them anyways. Servers are more of a concern for various reasons. I still don't worry too much though. Desktop users don't care.. they just want to see their apps work and work well. Dependancy hell is avoidable by breaking packages into smaller bits.. but at a very serious cost for maintainance. So what if I need to download less bloated dependancies to install my app.. when everything is several steps behind the latest version because the packagers haven't had the time to keep everything up to date. Packaging tools do need improvement. I actually sat down and experimented with building RPMs. Ugh. That sucks. Package management is iffy.. heck, I just want proper descriptions for all the software in my repository. Hasn't anyone thought to have a website-style package manager that acts as a gateway to screenshots, explanations, documentation and the like? It'd be nice to know what an application is without having to google around for a better description, or go to the thing's site (if I can find it) for info. It is unfortunate that these new languages like Perl came out .. that we can't all use one single good old language like Ruby. But that'll never happen. All that choice nonsense people keep going on about. Everyone wants to do their own half-assed thing so the world is full of 85% quality stuff. If there were a real concern, then projects like heretix would take off. This project will be rewriting all the scripts, the package management, making a custom software distribution application.. it breaks away from insane legacy choices, etc etc. But choice.. the developers want their choice. So all those libraries and dependancies (and their dependancies) exist. I wouldn't force a developer to use specific tools.. many would stop contributing to the application pool. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 04:47:12 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:47:12 -0700 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/5/06, Sy Ali wrote: > On 4/5/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > > See article at http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9590-6057456.html where > > Nicholas Negroponte (a fan of linux, if there ever was one) admits the > > obvious; linux needs to be slimmed down. > > I disagree. Disk space is cheap and users don't care. *Almost* true. Yes, disk space is cheap. And yes, libraries do get shared, particularly if you run multiple apps using the same "desktop environment." However, the DE guys have had a habit of squandering every hardware improvement by adding fancier display rendering every time there's an improvement. There's the notion of widget "engines" where you can pretty much have every menu bar and window edge do Purty Things that chew up memory and CPU power. Memory is usually the problem; that's what gets excessively consumed... > It's more important to have nice tools which fit the varying kinds of > developers so that better software can be created. Dependancies > aren't a problem.. let the package manager handle it. If things get > out of hand, it'll get fixed.. - The problems are probably most visible with the likes of Gentoo, where the recursiveness of the build process is the most "in your face." - With the lack of "meta-tools" for RPM-based systems, the people building packages suffer greatly. - With Debian, it probably mostly "just works" because they had "distribution building tools" on their todo list earlier than others... > All a user cares about is *make it go*. A serious distribution has > already balanced things quite nicely and a linux distro still won't > take an intimidating amount of drive space to run. Yeah. 320GB disks are now getting cheap... > Low-end systems are a niche and not a large concern. There are some > very good specialized-distributions for them anyways. There can be fine-grained exceptions to this, but I think you're basically right. When any vendor gets into involvement with Linux, they are NOT interested in deploying it on 3-year-old hardware; that's a business area that is looking for headaches. Vendors are interested in involvement with reasonably "late-breaking" hardware, and anything recently built will have at least 32MB of video RAM, if not 128MB, and 256MB of RAM, if not 512MB, etcetera, etcetera... It's well and good to talk about retasking old servers, but there's not Real Money to be made there, so that's more a hobbyist thing than anything vendors of any sort will care about. > Servers are more of a concern for various reasons. I still don't > worry too much though. > > Desktop users don't care.. they just want to see their apps work and work well. > > Dependancy hell is avoidable by breaking packages into smaller bits.. > but at a very serious cost for maintainance. So what if I need to > download less bloated dependancies to install my app.. when everything > is several steps behind the latest version because the packagers > haven't had the time to keep everything up to date. This points essentially at something like Debian... Not "bleeding edge" to the point of cutting yourself... > Packaging tools do need improvement. I actually sat down and > experimented with building RPMs. Ugh. That sucks. Package > management is iffy.. heck, I just want proper descriptions for all the > software in my repository. Hasn't anyone thought to have a > website-style package manager that acts as a gateway to screenshots, > explanations, documentation and the like? It'd be nice to know what > an application is without having to google around for a better > description, or go to the thing's site (if I can find it) for info. Pretty much any packaging system has at least that much metadata lying around, so this seems a "solved problem" as far as data collection goes. For sure, RPM, Debian packages, and BSD Ports provide coherent places to assemble, for each package: a) Brief descriptions b) URL to source There are conventions, in Debian and BSD, for where to stow documentation, as well as in LSB. > It is unfortunate that these new languages like Perl came out .. that > we can't all use one single good old language like Ruby. But that'll > never happen. All that choice nonsense people keep going on about. > Everyone wants to do their own half-assed thing so the world is full > of 85% quality stuff. That's another discussion :-). It's looking to me like the choices added since Common Lisp and Tcl were mostly steps backward, but apparently "to each his own" is a vital enough principle that we have to support way too many scripting languages. This actually points to the curious question of how a successor compiled language can emerge. Today, probably 95% of things get compiled from one of {C|C++|Java} (with token amounts of FORTRAN still around). The fragmentation of scripting languages (which do way more than scripting) makes it quite the puzzle as to what the shape of a successor to Java would be. I don't imagine it's C#, which looks plenty like Java anyways. I'm not sure what else... > If there were a real concern, then projects like heretix would take > off. This project will be rewriting all the scripts, the package > management, making a custom software distribution application.. it > breaks away from insane legacy choices, etc etc. > > But choice.. the developers want their choice. So all those libraries > and dependancies (and their dependancies) exist. I wouldn't force a > developer to use specific tools.. many would stop contributing to the > application pool. The latter is the forcible argument *against* trying to forcibly unify GNOME and KDE and such. People don't recognize that managing open source projects is a matter more like "herding cats," where, when participants are volunteers, you can't force them to do anything. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 04:49:17 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:49:17 -0400 Subject: [ot]: how they crossed over the Behring straits In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:49:47AM +0300 References: Message-ID: <20060406004917.A18161@diamond.ss.org> I realize this completely off topic, but I can't resist. Think snow shoes. If a pair of snow shoes can keep you on unpacked fluffy snow by spreading your weight they should have no problem on even thin ice. Bill On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:49:47AM +0300, Peter wrote: > > A spectacular picture: > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060405.wdip0405/PhotoGallery01?slot=8 > > that ice looks really thin to me. Scary. What's the plan if one steps > through it ? Has anyone got more links on the subject of the > straits-crossing on ice or water ? This is not a Linux issue (well, it > remotely relates to penguins ...) but I cannot find info on this due to > search engine pollution. Private replies are welcome. > > thanks, > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 05:15:18 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 01:15:18 -0400 Subject: non-interactive XML editor In-Reply-To: <4431E324.6070301-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4431E324.6070301@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: 2006/4/3, Fraser Campbell : > I'm not against using perl/ruby/whatever, I just expect there must be a > simple command line tool like I'm suggesting ... if only I could find it. So use Perl. :) Even if the tool did exist, it'd be faster to hack up a two-line Perl script to do it yourself than to search for and find the tool. If you're not yet good with regular expressions, there's a good one-chapter introduction to regular expressions in the book "Learning Perl." Or just search Google for the words regular expression tutorial. A basic knowledge of regexp syntax is unbelievably useful for things like this, for the grep(1) tool, and for advanced search-and-replaces in Vim and Emacs. Cheers, Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 05:19:58 2006 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 01:19:58 -0400 Subject: Java Question Message-ID: Anyone know if Java supports the select function that C has? i.e. use FD_SET etc to wait on an array of file descriptors for read,write,exception events. Cheers, Randy -- Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world --John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 10:57:17 2006 From: paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Paul Osman) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 06:57:17 -0400 Subject: Java Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6-Apr-06, at 1:19 AM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > Anyone know if Java supports the select function that C has? i.e. use > FD_SET etc to wait on an array of file descriptors for > read,write,exception events. > > Cheers, > > Randy Hi Randy, Java doesn't have a select() function per say, but afaik you can use the java.nio.channels.Selector class to do I/O multiplexing. Here's a link: http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/09/01/nio.html Cheers, Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 12:51:30 2006 From: paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org (Paul Nash) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:51:30 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >It is unfortunate that these new languages like Perl came out .. that >we can't all use one single good old language like Ruby. But that'll >never happen. All that choice nonsense people keep going on about. >Everyone wants to do their own half-assed thing so the world is full >of 85% quality stuff. Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, PHP, python or even TCL. Different languages for different uses: Larrry Wall wrote Perl for system administrators to rip logfiles to pieces. As a professional sysadmin, Perl is still my #1 tool for generic system automation (/bin/sh doesn't count). It can do stuff to text that even vi(1) has some difficulty with. AWK was designed to handle tables of data, which it does well. You can use perl instead, but AWK is simpler/cleaner. TCL was designed to be small and easy to embed in tools (hence "Tool Control Language"). It's mostly linked to the Tk toolkit, but I've seen it used in lots and lots of places. ... and so on. There's a *nix tradition of building lots of small tools that do one thing, and do it well. I remember the flames when ls(1) had a 'sort' option added, as this turned it into a tool that did two things and duplicated what another tool did. Perl is an exception, in that it is big and does lots of things, and that you can do thing sin many different ways withing Perl (think swiss army knife cum cordless drill cum chainsaw cum hammer cum ...). It's just too damn useful to do without. As for the rest, they have their places (I suppose). If you think that something is half-arsed and only 85% there, either don't use it (and the tools that depend on it) or roll up your sleeves and provide the missing 15%. My own personal peeve is the number of projects that start at version 0.01, and somehow stabilise at version 0.9. If it works and is usable, call it version 1, for god's sake! paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 14:47:00 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405183844.GK4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <200604051408.43293.marc@lijour.net> <20060405183844.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200604061047.01097.marc@lijour.net> On April 5, 2006 02:38 pm, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:08:42PM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > > As soon as we have conflict nodes, installability becomes NP-hard. > > http://www.edos-project.org/xwiki/bin/Main/Wp2Complexity > > > > And the package management tools are far from perfect. > > I don't see why. If exim and postfix conflict, then you can only > install one of them at a time. Simple to solve. Works for me. You never experienced a failure to install? Somebody talked about dependency hell in this thread before. The fact is the current situation is far from perfect. Let's take an example with Debian apt which we presented recently. We have tested Apt?s behavior on a snapshot of the Debian pool taken in the middle of 2005, and available in the EDOS subversion repository as Data/Sources/Packages-pool.gz. Of the many tests performed, we retain the following three, which clearly exhibit some of Apt?s limitations. ? apt-get install abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 fails ? apt-get install abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 abiword-common=2.2.7-3 succeeds ? apt-get install abiword-common=2.2.7-3 abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 succeeds, but installs one more package! As you can see apt fails to devise a solution to install abiword though there are (first case). Solutions found by apt are also order-dependent as you can see in the later cases. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 14:48:25 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:48:25 -0400 Subject: non-interactive XML editor In-Reply-To: <44326EAB.60107-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4431E324.6070301@georgetown.wehave.net> <200604032325.55009.marc@lijour.net> <44326EAB.60107@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <200604061048.26051.marc@lijour.net> On April 4, 2006 09:03 am, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Marc Lijour wrote: > > I see one problem in your situation, how is xmldohicky going to guess > > the format of the text files? If the format was fixed, for example XML > > (to take the problem the other way around) it would be extremely easy to > > generate whatever output format you wish by using XSL Transformation > > (xsltproc is your tool, it comes in libxslt-xsltproc). > > I know what each element is. For example I have a files called packages > which lists things like apache, postfix - one per line. When I > encounter a package file I know each line should be stuffed into a > install.software.package (node/element/whatever). What not writing a perl script (or other) to output xml for you? Before you have xml you can't use xml tools. > I'll take a look at xsltproc, perhaps that will do what I want. > > Thansk > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 14:59:28 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 06 Apr 2006 10:59:28 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060405155302.GI4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> <20060405155302.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:37:47AM -0400, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > > I think that they did. I read it as 'send a detailed CV with a photo of said > > CV'. > > A photo of the CV? As in a photo of the paper? Why not? It's less likely to get you a human rights complaint than a photo of the applicant. And a HR/recruiter/manager wouldn't be so obtuse as to ask for a photo, would they? -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 15:44:28 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 11:44:28 -0400 Subject: Proxy websites Message-ID: <4435375C.70701@telly.org> Hi there. A friend works at a Very Large Company, which is blocking access to sites this friend wants to access (specifically gmail). I recall that there were proxy sites on the net that allowed you to get around these kinds of obstacles. I found the site freeproxy.ru, but many of the sites listed there are also blocked. Is there a better list? Like the ones used by Chinese students? ;-) Feel free to send any pointers personally to me if you don't want the info blasted on the whole list. Discretion can be assumed. Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 15:57:02 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 11:57:02 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <200604061047.01097.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <200604051408.43293.marc@lijour.net> <20060405183844.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200604061047.01097.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20060406155702.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:47:00AM -0400, Marc Lijour wrote: > You never experienced a failure to install? Somebody talked about dependency > hell in this thread before. The fact is the current situation is far from > perfect. Let's take an example with Debian apt which we presented recently. > > We have tested Apt???s behavior on a snapshot of the Debian pool taken in the > middle of 2005, and available in the EDOS subversion repository as > Data/Sources/Packages-pool.gz. Of the many tests performed, we retain the > following three, which clearly exhibit some of Apt???s limitations. > ??? apt-get install abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 fails > ??? apt-get install abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 abiword-common=2.2.7-3 > succeeds > ??? apt-get install abiword-common=2.2.7-3 abiword-gnome=2.2.7-3 > succeeds, but installs one more package! > > As you can see apt fails to devise a solution to install abiword though there > are (first case). Solutions found by apt are also order-dependent as you can > see in the later cases. Was this a snapshot of debian stable, or debian development? gnome transitions cause breakage due to incorrect packages sometimes. They get fixed, before they are released. Passing versions to apt-get is also not for normal use. So the test might be interesting in terms of trying to make apt better, but it is not a test of normal use or even of how apt is meant to be used. gnome packages do seem to be among the more frequently broken. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 16:30:47 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:30:47 -0400 Subject: Proxy websites In-Reply-To: <4435375C.70701-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4435375C.70701@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060406163047.GA7092@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Ultimately, I would recommend against circumventing your workplace proxy settings. It is grounds for dismissal, and may be easily detected, both from a network standpoint and an over-the-shoulder inspection. That said, I would set up an SSH server somewhere outside the workplace with the listening port set to 443 (HTTPS) (of anything that is not filtered via the firewall). Log in via straight SSH and run a client-side X server, launching a browser through the encrypted tunnel, or use something like FreeNX and the non-free NX client, and launch a remote X session. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 16:52:12 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:52:12 -0400 Subject: Proxy websites In-Reply-To: <4435375C.70701-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 11:44:28AM -0400 References: <4435375C.70701@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060406125212.B18161@diamond.ss.org> The real question is should he be trying to get around the security the company put in. Such behaviour is grounds for dismissal. Quite a few companies deliberately put up lame security solutions and simply watch the logs for the people to go around them because it is a sign that such people are wasting company time on personal business. Bill On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 11:44:28AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi there. > > A friend works at a Very Large Company, which is blocking access to > sites this friend wants to access (specifically gmail). > I recall that there were proxy sites on the net that allowed you to get > around these kinds of obstacles. > > I found the site freeproxy.ru, but many of the sites listed there are > also blocked. Is there a better list? Like the ones used by Chinese > students? ;-) > > Feel free to send any pointers personally to me if you don't want the > info blasted on the whole list. Discretion can be assumed. > > Thanks! > > - Evan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 16:55:05 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:55:05 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: ; from matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:59:28AM -0400 References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> <20060405155302.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060406125505.C18161@diamond.ss.org> We are talking about a lab that is excempt to many regulations because of National Security. Bill On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:59:28AM -0400, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 10:37:47AM -0400, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > > > I think that they did. I read it as 'send a detailed CV with a photo of said > > > CV'. > > > > A photo of the CV? As in a photo of the paper? > > Why not? It's less likely to get you a human rights complaint than a photo > of the applicant. > > And a HR/recruiter/manager wouldn't be so obtuse as to ask for a photo, would > they? > -- > g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca > phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 > http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 16:58:21 2006 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:58:21 -0400 Subject: Proxy websites In-Reply-To: <20060406125212.B18161-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <4435375C.70701@telly.org> <20060406125212.B18161@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <7583D0C9-AC3A-4ECC-BBCF-4F5F7E6E0E6F@visibleassets.com> On a more serious note, does anyone know how skype punches through firewalls. This is for a legitimate embedded device application. Dve On 6-Apr-06, at 12:52 PM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > The real question is should he be trying to get around the security > the company put in. Such behaviour is grounds for dismissal. Quite > a few companies deliberately put up lame security solutions and > simply watch the logs for the people to go around them because it > is a sign that such people are wasting company time on personal > business. > > Bill > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 11:44:28AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Hi there. >> >> A friend works at a Very Large Company, which is blocking access to >> sites this friend wants to access (specifically gmail). >> I recall that there were proxy sites on the net that allowed you >> to get >> around these kinds of obstacles. >> >> I found the site freeproxy.ru, but many of the sites listed there are >> also blocked. Is there a better list? Like the ones used by Chinese >> students? ;-) >> >> Feel free to send any pointers personally to me if you don't want the >> info blasted on the whole list. Discretion can be assumed. >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Evan >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 17:34:11 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:34:11 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <20060406125505.C18161-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060402135157.66476.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <20060402161649.GA3833@wp.magstar.net> <92ee967a0604030626v56e17b5bo20fb8fa3368ae37f@mail.gmail.com> <20060404125659.E9134@diamond.ss.org> <20060405155302.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060406125505.C18161@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604061034h451120bj885f2db1b3adf988@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > We are talking about a lab that is excempt to many regulations because of National Security. We could hope so. Can't confirm this as yet, but I'm looking. Heard at work this morning that an armoury was broken into in the GTA. This is the stuff that makes me think that the free/libre/open source mentality is needed - where decisions get made. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 17:50:29 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:50:29 -0400 Subject: Semi-pro or pro graphics people In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604051059od811a35we581549749fda2b9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <92ee967a0604051059od811a35we581549749fda2b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604061050l2ca3b131xd1f98326e081b2ad@mail.gmail.com> On 4/5/06, Mike Kallies wrote: > I can help her arrange samples of previous years designs so as to get > an idea of what we're trying to do. The shirts won't be printed > locally, as travelling with them is a pain. As usual, we have to put > faith in an out-of-town production house. Putting the samples online would be helpful to give people something to look at. Might shake some ideas loose. Do you know what printing/transfer process will be used? The type/color(s) of shirt? > BTW, this year's event is in Lithuania, I'm uncertain if I can make it > myself, too many personal commitments at the moment. This would be a > rare opportunity for most people to see a part of the world they'd > normally have no reason to visit. The area looks and sounds beautiful. I expect it would make quite a memorable trip. Just wish I had the cash and less of them commitments. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 18:31:43 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 21:31:43 +0300 (IDT) Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit Message-ID: This is an unbelievable lawsuit. Just how long can they pull it on ? Longer than the Bold and the Beautiful ? According to Slashdot IBM are feeling that the lawsuit is Kafkaesque (with references to 'Der Proze?'). I already knew that. Is there some precedent to how long a lawsuit can be drawn out ? Peter From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 18:47:26 2006 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:47:26 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604061034h451120bj885f2db1b3adf988-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060406125505.C18161@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0604061034h451120bj885f2db1b3adf988@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604061447.27204.interlug@weait.net> On Thursday 06 April 2006 13:34, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/6/06, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > We are talking about a lab that is excempt to many regulations > > because of National Security. > > We could hope so. Can't confirm this as yet, but I'm looking. Too bad the original poster didn't care to clarify this issue regarding his job posting. It's an interesting topic. My instinct is that asking for a photo with a resume is wrong in Canada. I've been told that in India it is expected that you will submit a photo with your resume. That was in 1998, so things may have changed in the interim. So I asked a law student that I know, what the deal is. Turns out we are all correct. It's wrong to use a photo of the applicant for discrimination. But it's okay to require a photo if it is needed for some reason. See the example below. Here is the reply from the law student. If you need a "Real Answer" buy one from your own lawyer. This is not legal advice. > I know that employees at Canadian nuclear facilities with the advent of the new > 'war on terror' were required to submit to background checks, along with their > spouses, who had no contact with the plants, and this was held to be > justifiable; a lot of what feels wrong in law probably isn't. ? > > The Charter protects an individual from unreasonable search and seizure, > protection of life, liberty and security of the person, and no discrimination > (along with a bunch of other stuff, of course). ?Nothing in the Charter really > seems directly on point to having to submit a photo at the outset, unless it's > for a discriminatory purpose. > > The way the Charter works is that even if something is contrary to the Charter, > there's still a s. 1 analysis in which the violation could be considered a > reasonable limit. ?This analysis looks at the objectives of the statute, and the > impairment on the rights of the individual. ?Note that the Charter only applies > to federal or provincial acts, since it deals with stuff prescribed by law, so > private acts are not captured by the Charter. > > All that being said, assuming, arguendo, that the lab is governed by an enabling > statute, the purpose of the photo is likely not discriminatory in itself, but > rather for identification purposes given security issues. ?Even if it were to > breach the individual's Charter rights, which I don't really see it doing, it > would probably be justifiable as a reasonable limit under s. 1. > > Where I think that there may be more play is with PIPEDA, which applies to > commercial organizations and federal works and undertakings (e.g. banks, > railways etc.). ?PIPEDA requires that the purposes for which information > (including photos) is being sought be communicated when it is requested, that > the individual consent (although consent can be implied), and that collection be > limited to that which is necessary for the purposes. ? > > As an example, being asked to provide a photo for a credit card application is > probably unrelated to the purpose of verifying credit or establishing identity, > and would be unreasonable in this instance. ?If, however, you had to provide a > photo since it would be put on the front of the credit card as a form of visual > identification, then the request would be reasonable. > > Regardless, it seems as if there is probably a national security or > identification argument that is being made to justify the request at the outset. > ?I am sure that they've checked the legal requirements, or are being forced to > ask, since this is the kind of thing that pisses people off and makes them cause > trouble, and employers don't like that as a rule. > > Sorry for being so verbose. ?Hope that helps. ?If you need more info, let me > know more details about the institution and the exact wording on the form and I > can dig a little more for you. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 18:54:14 2006 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:54:14 -0400 Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604061454.15643.interlug@weait.net> On Thursday 06 April 2006 14:31, Peter wrote: > This is an unbelievable lawsuit. Just how long can they pull it on ? > Longer than the Bold and the Beautiful ? According to Slashdot IBM > are feeling that the lawsuit is Kafkaesque (with references to 'Der > Proze?'). I already knew that. Is there some precedent to how long a > lawsuit can be drawn out ? > > Peter Groklaw.com and the Yahoo! Finance message board for stock symbol SCOX (The SCO Group) are good sites for those with an interest in this case. Also have a look at ip-wars.net I heard that question asked several times, but have never seen a canonical answer. I think that when one or more parties to the suit want to drag it out, it can go just about forever. That said, two of the three discovery phases have already closed (with some exceptions) and dispositive motions will be allowed again in a month or two IIRC. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 19:03:50 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Peter wrote: > This is an unbelievable lawsuit. Just how long can > they pull it on ? > Longer than the Bold and the Beautiful ? According > to Slashdot IBM are > feeling that the lawsuit is Kafkaesque (with > references to 'Der > Proze?'). I already knew that. Is there some > precedent to how long a > lawsuit can be drawn out ? I am not a lawyer, and I only talk to them when I feel I must. Still, I am sure with appeals this may drag out several more years. Think about it, when SCO started this @#$% SCO shares were about $1 each, they are now around $4 each (granted for a time they were over $15 each), so, this lawsuit has been great for the executives who have been issued and then cashed out SCO stock. The minute the lawsuit is over, when SCO has been proven not to have a hope of shaking IBM down for $$$ then SCO's assets return to being a dying Unix business and they will the liability of a massive IBM counter suit. So, SCO executives milk this for every dollar they can get for themselves and they want this suit to go on as long as possible. IBM is in no great rush, they want SCO DEAD in a way that leaves NO question regarding IBM having acted improperly. So, IBM is patient, but they will crush SCO, just later rather than sooner. In other words IBM will do everything in the courts by the book and take SCO's claims apart slowly, methodically. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 20:50:18 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405133011.GE4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Actually I think you are entirely wrong. Linux is so efficient at the > use of memory for shared objects that it only loads one copy no matter > how many programs and users are using it. Precisely. (I've been tempted to make several follow-ups to Lennart in this thread saying "me too" :) The argument that "we should cut down diversity" has been applied to the GUIs on X as well in recent years. Not only won't this work (in open source we have no way of enforcing any sort of computer use) there is simply no need for it. Many seem to forget that the desktop/window manager can be set on a per user basis. I use fvwm2 everywhere. In doing so I am not placing any restrictions on other people who are using the box at the same time as I am. The idea that all computers should use the same GUI so that users can understand the environment when they sit down is specious to me. We should be encouraging everyone to use their environment on whatever box they happen to be on. Then their _exact_ environment will be available to them. We should be discouraging people just "sitting down" at an open terminal (logged in as someone else) in the first place. This especially applies to the work place where too often accounts are left open for others to use. If no one users others accounts then understanding how the account is setup becomes irrelevant. I took this topic from scripting languages to GUIs but I think the point is made: diversity is not a bad thing[1]. Trying to stiffle diversity in any manner, even if it's just the scripting language I can use to solve a problem, scares me a lot. As Len mentions, copy-on-write paging (allowing apps to reuse memory even among different users) is a powerful thing in the OS. It really comes into its own on multi-user boxes. The amount of memory that gets reused is often amazing. [1] I happen to think diversity is a good thing in the non-computer world too :) My wife and I come from different cultures and we've adopted aspects of other cultures in to our daily life. Eg, we eat kimchi several times per week despite the fact neither of us has any Korean heritage. The modern world offers the ability to pick and choose the parts of other cultures that you like and just adopt them. Ok, I've digressed enough :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 21:10:36 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:10:36 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <200604061447.27204.interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060406125505.C18161@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0604061034h451120bj885f2db1b3adf988@mail.gmail.com> <200604061447.27204.interlug@weait.net> Message-ID: <443583CC.8070808@utoronto.ca> interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Thursday 06 April 2006 13:34, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> On 4/6/06, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >>> We are talking about a lab that is excempt to many regulations >>> because of National Security. >> We could hope so. Can't confirm this as yet, but I'm looking. > > Too bad the original poster didn't care to clarify this issue > regarding his job posting. It's an interesting topic. My instinct is > that asking for a photo with a resume is wrong in Canada. I've been > told that in India it is expected that you will submit a photo with > your resume. That was in 1998, so things may have changed in the > interim. > > So I asked a law student that I know, what the deal is. Turns out we > are all correct. It's wrong to use a photo of the applicant for > discrimination. But it's okay to require a photo if it is needed for > some reason. See the example below. > > Here is the reply from the law student. If you need a "Real Answer" buy > one from your own lawyer. This is not legal advice. It's too bad that if you submit a photo and it is used for discriminatory purposes i.e. you don't get an interview lets say, you can't really prove that you were subject to discrimination. As much as the Charter is there, it shouldn't really apply. If anyone applying for a job submits a photo with their application because it is requested, then they are complicit in whatever violation of whatever rights they claim are being violated -- if you permit it you promote it. Wrong or not, there isn't really anything to be done about it IMO, apart from not submitting a photo. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 21:13:59 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:13:59 -0400 Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: <20060406190350.75474.qmail-iE2/U85ktn6B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44358497.20301@utoronto.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Peter wrote: >> This is an unbelievable lawsuit. Just how long can >> they pull it on ? >> Longer than the Bold and the Beautiful ? According >> to Slashdot IBM are >> feeling that the lawsuit is Kafkaesque (with >> references to 'Der >> Proze?'). I already knew that. Is there some >> precedent to how long a >> lawsuit can be drawn out ? > > I am not a lawyer, and I only talk to them when I feel > I must. > > Still, I am sure with appeals this may drag out > several more years. Think about it, when SCO started > this @#$% SCO shares were about $1 each, they are now > around $4 each (granted for a time they were over $15 > each), so, this lawsuit has been great for the > executives who have been issued and then cashed out > SCO stock. The minute the lawsuit is over, when SCO > has been proven not to have a hope of shaking IBM down > for $$$ then SCO's assets return to being a dying Unix > business and they will the liability of a massive IBM > counter suit. So, SCO executives milk this for every > dollar they can get for themselves and they want this > suit to go on as long as possible. > > IBM is in no great rush, they want SCO DEAD in a way > that leaves NO question regarding IBM having acted > improperly. So, IBM is patient, but they will crush > SCO, just later rather than sooner. In other words IBM > will do everything in the courts by the book and take > SCO's claims apart slowly, methodically. They're doing a good job at defending themselves I'd say. Groklaw has a great article today titled "A Chart to Immortalize SCO's Lack of Specificity". Take a read here: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060405202303212 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 22:08:10 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:08:10 -0500 Subject: apt, urpmi, rpm patented? Message-ID: <200604061808.11075.marc@lijour.net> Another controversial topic: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14217 http://esoft.com/company/press_detail1.cfm?ID=102 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 22:47:37 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:47:37 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1e55af990604061547k5c9ce479wd83d3d1625d65469@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, Robert Brockway wrote: > (in open source we have no way of enforcing any > sort of computer use) It's still an interesting thought to suggest that overall the pool of ability would be better spent if directed under enlightened depotism. I mean.. if less options existed but more intelligent configurability existed.. that would be nice. Fewer choices but much more mature choices. > [1] I happen to think diversity is a good thing in the non-computer world > too :) My wife and I come from different cultures and we've adopted > aspects of other cultures in to our daily life. Plus, cross-culture kids are cute! *point self* -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 22:48:43 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:48:43 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604061548i63eb6cf5x2347363b364720b8@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, Christopher Browne wrote: > Memory is usually the problem; that's what gets excessively consumed... Aah, too true. With lots of choice and lots of dependancies a user might be tempted to use a widely varied collection of applications.. each one of those applications takes memory, and each of their dependancies also does. This does slow things down a noticible amount. > It's well and good to talk about retasking old servers, but there's > not Real Money to be made there, so that's more a hobbyist thing than > anything vendors of any sort will care about. I think that older hardware is a very interesting concern for hobbyists. I know I was very interested when I was running older hardware. I found it quite fascinating to find alternate software which was smaller and with lighter dependancies. I was *very* pleased to see what Linux could do. > This points essentially at something like Debian... Not "bleeding > edge" to the point of cutting yourself... I guess the sacrifice is that power users who really do like being on the edge are now forced to build their own applications from source. This used to be quite annoying, but it's gotten quite a lot easier. I think that the balance a distro like debian has is quite good. But then again, there are all kinds.. and so all kinds of distributions exist, and will always exist to promote the varying choices. I guess the argument is that reducing choices won't make the remaining pool of applications/libraries/distributions/programmers more productive.. it'll just reduce choices. > > I just want proper descriptions for all the > > software in my repository. Hasn't anyone thought to have a > > website-style package manager that acts as a gateway to screenshots, > > explanations, documentation and the like? > Pretty much any packaging system has at least that much metadata lying > around, so this seems a "solved problem" as far as data collection > goes. I'd generally agree that there is a very plain "it just barely works" solution for most package managers.. but.. the package manager's metadata should be thought on at length.. just like the website is. It really should describe things better. Finding a typo is one thing, but not having a clue why an application is different than any other application is really annoying. Of course, at that point I install it.. and its dependancies.. and try it out. Then I uninstall it.. and.. am left with all the dependancies to clean up myself. =) > This actually points to the curious question of how a successor > compiled language can emerge. I think that hobbyist developers have become vastly more intelligent and organized over time. If something peeks its head up and it could posture enough to get noticed and demonstrate that it could be useful, it'll spread like wildfire. I'd like to think this would happen.. but I've seen some spectacular things in my wandering, and these things have not taken off at all. It's really odd. However many developers could be agile enough to change gears and try something new, there are least that many developers who are in love with their tools too much to play with another tool which might be better down the road. > > I wouldn't force a > > developer to use specific tools.. many would stop contributing to the > > application pool. > > The latter is the forcible argument *against* trying to forcibly unify > GNOME and KDE and such. People don't recognize that managing open > source projects is a matter more like "herding cats," where, when > participants are volunteers, you can't force them to do anything. *shudder* unify them? Why ever would one want that? The philosophies seem very different.. I use applications from either (because I have a summer home in dependancy hell) and they do look, feel and work quite different. I happen to like KDE and could care less of Gnome vanishes, but hey.. people like Gnome and I don't dislike most people so they can have their Gnome. =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 23:03:45 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:03:45 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, Paul Nash wrote: > > >It is unfortunate that these new languages like Perl came out .. that > >we can't all use one single good old language like Ruby. But that'll > >never happen. All that choice nonsense people keep going on about. > >Everyone wants to do their own half-assed thing so the world is full > >of 85% quality stuff. > > Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit > knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, > PHP, python or even TCL. Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) > Different languages for different uses: > ... and so on. > There's a *nix tradition of building lots of small tools that do one thing, > and do it well. I remember the flames when ls(1) had a 'sort' option > added, as this turned it into a tool that did two things and duplicated > what another tool did. I always thought the unix philosophy of specializing and splintering applications into unique tasks made the learning curve quite a bit steeper. For me, it's still so steep that I'm not willing to bother with chaining tools together when I can find one tool which can do things passably well. But even in cases where it's best to chain tools together, it's so very very frustrating to have to learn something new completely from scratch and have to figure out how the extra pieces fit together. Usability varies between tools. They all work differently and so one needs to learn new skills for each new application. For example, take rsync over ssh. Two tools that taste great together. But for a user, they just want the ability to synchronize in a few common ways.. but one must learn to work with the two of them separately and then together. This isn't a strong argument, since there is good documentation out there. Well, sortof good documentation. Well.. lots of mediocre HOWTOs. The answers are there and I found them easily enough. Still, this isn't always the case. Even now I don't understand why I can't pass more parameters to an application to have it do additional things. I mean.. if the other application exists, then have the first application use it transparently. > As for the rest, they have their places (I suppose). If you think that > something is half-arsed and only 85% there, either don't use it (and the > tools that depend on it) or roll up your sleeves and provide the missing > 15%. I still argue that it's not possible to be handed anything at 100% because every developer is off working on their own 85%. As a user, I think that I would end up learning the tool and bending it to my uses instead of working on the remaining 15. > My own personal peeve is the number of projects that start at version 0.01, > and somehow stabilise at version 0.9. If it works and is usable, call it > version 1, for god's sake! I think it's funny when a project reaches the .9 and goes belly up, and somehow everyone who's anyone is using it like it's stable.. because it's been around for so long. I also think it's morbidly funny when spectacularly cool applications sit around at the "almost usable" stage and never make their way to completion. Somehow, the logic that another interested developer will swoop in and take over just doesn't happen in the real world. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 23:08:45 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:08:45 -0400 Subject: Changing the word separators in X Message-ID: <1e55af990604061608v226fb14fk5ff41a87b5b87bdf@mail.gmail.com> I've got a vague problem and I'm not sure how to search for my answers. I'm looking for some search terms so I can run off and do some research. I cannot stand the word separators which I see everywhere. In every application it seems to work a little different. However, I'm most interested in general X apps. I have bash configured so that I can ctrl-left/right to hop between words. It works the way I expect (not that I use it much). However, word separators don't work the way I expect in X, using various window managers in various applications, like for example Firefox. Does anyone have any idea where I would begin looking for configuring an xorg / KDE setup to have different word separators? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 6 23:42:11 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 19:42:11 -0400 Subject: apt, urpmi, rpm patented? In-Reply-To: <200604061808.11075.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604061808.11075.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <4435A753.5010606@utoronto.ca> Marc Lijour wrote: > Another controversial topic: > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14217 > > http://esoft.com/company/press_detail1.cfm?ID=102 IANAL, but I'd say that is an essentially spurious clam of OSnews -- I don't know how rpm, yum, etc. are licensed but they've been around for much longer than the patent awarded to eSoft "by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on November 1, 2005." Perhaps if those tools are not patented under the GPL1/2 (GPL3 has patent sections I think) then the claim might have some merit as applied to open source package management etc., though still totally unenforceable if actually applied to our tools of choice -- I'd still keep using rpm deb etc. In fact, if it ever came to it that our package management systems were threatened, some solidarity amongst users and distributions might emerge, actually benefiting the community. Purely speculation there though. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 01:21:51 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:21:51 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <44331598.6080206-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 20:55 -0400, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would highly > > recommend reimage/reinstall as well. For a novice user, perhaps. RPM based systems can be fixed quite easily. Altered files can be found with "rpm -Va" and inspected. The toughest one I had was when infected files like 'ls' and 'ps' would re-infect when run. Installing RPMs that used infected commands in pre or post install scripts would re-infect. Even then the --noscripts option worked great. If you're worried about root kits becoming smart enough to mangle the RPM database, then archive and sign it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 01:34:01 2006 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 21:34:01 -0400 Subject: Java Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Paul, the site looks interesting On 4/6/06, Paul Osman wrote: > Hi Randy, > > Java doesn't have a select() function per say, but afaik you can use > the java.nio.channels.Selector class to do I/O multiplexing. Here's a > link: > > http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/09/01/nio.html > > Cheers, > Paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world --John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 02:32:04 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:32:04 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405133011.GE4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060407023204.GA6886@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:30:11AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Actually I think you are entirely wrong. Linux is so efficient at the > use of memory for shared objects that it only loads one copy no matter > how many programs and users are using it. Only one copy of perl, only one copy of python, only one copy of PHP, only one copy of QT, only one copy of GTK, only one copy of Java, only one copy of Ruby... etc, etc. *THAT IS THE PROBLEM*. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 02:31:55 2006 From: paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org (Paul Nash) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:31:55 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) You're right, it is. Ruby dates back to Feb 24, 1993. I thought that it was a child of the late '90's. However, AWK was written in 1977, and Perl 1 was foisted on an unsuspecting world in 1987. They all have different uses. Perl has evolved over time, but was and still is primarily a system administration tool. It is spectacularly good at that. >This isn't a strong argument, since there is good documentation out >there. Well, sortof good documentation. Well.. lots of mediocre >HOWTOs. The answers are there and I found them easily enough. Still, >this isn't always the case. In most cases, the documentation stinks. That's why you should RTFS :-). We don't call it "open source" for nothing, you know ... >As a user, I think that I would end up learning the tool and bending >it to my uses instead of working on the remaining 15. Can you say "Microsoft"? There, it's not that hard. Try again a few times, and when you can do it without barfing, pop into Best Buy and get an application that you can just "learn and use". >I also think it's morbidly funny when spectacularly cool applications >sit around at the "almost usable" stage and never make their way to >completion. Somehow, the logic that another interested developer will >swoop in and take over just doesn't happen in the real world. It depends on the developer and/or development team. *YOU* think that they are driven to develop a spectacular product that will install easily, work right out the box, and do everything that you want. Oh, and have decent documentation as well. I have been writing software for over 20 years. When people pay me money, I write software that meets all their specs, installs effortlessly (well, embedded stuff takes some effort, so this is relative), is well documented, and so on. Folk who write software for re-sale do this too. Well, in theory, anyway (cf. Microsoft and many others). When I write software for my own use, I put in enough features to satisfy my needs (or the most critical ones), I hack up a user interface that works well enough for me, and I document that stuff that isn't totally obvious to me or that I think that I'll forget. I generally keep such software to myself, by some end up in wider circulation. In these cases, I don't care whether anyone else wants something done better -- if they do, they are at liberty to do it. If they give me money, I'll do it. If they complain to me, I put them in my kill-file and never hear from them again. This sort of software isn't pretty, because it answers a need that *I* have. However, other people have often found it useful, and in some cases have built on my basic work to produce some quite full-featured products. Bully for them! In one or two cases, I have even used their versions rather than my own, although I usually use my own. When I find someone else's software that does most of what I want, I may ask them for some advice, or for explanations about why they did things in some specific ways, but if I want it to work differently, the onus is on *ME* to change it, not them. Sometimes I pick up the remnants of dead projects and resurrect them enough to fit my needs. You gets what you pays for. paul Config files may be non-existent or arcane. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 03:32:04 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:32:04 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <44337B6A.2040401-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <44337B6A.2040401@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060407033204.GC6886@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 04:10:18AM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote > Take a look at klik then. I haven't used it myself, but it seems to > beis gaining a decent following. Now of course, it is for desktop > apps, but still... You'll notice, however, that OpenOffice is not > available anywhere on the site ;) http://klik.atekon.de/ Gentoo handles dependancies very well, and that's what I currently use. The "portage" utility figures out what you need and pulls it in. Since Gentoo builds most stuff from source tarballs, it doesn't have the RPM syndrome of having to worry about whatever weird combination of libraries was on the developer's machine when he built the RPM. My benchmark for Gentoo dependancy management is... - build a text-console-only system - "emerge gimp" just before going to bed When I get up to go to work, I have a functional Gimp and support libs, along with a functional TWM, X windowing gui and support libs. RPM-hell... what's that? And for bonus points, Gentoo will build apps optimized to use every last feature of *MY* cpu, not a lowest-common- denominator cpu. Yes, there are dependancy-handling solutions that will pull in all the necessary dependancies. They solve the symptom, but not the root problem. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 03:36:22 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:36:22 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated Message-ID: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 01:11:54PM +0300, Peter wrote > $0.002, from a guy who has been to dependency hell and back several > times in the last ~10 years of continuous Linux use, Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 03:43:38 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:43:38 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060405183735.GJ4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060407034338.GE6886@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:37:35PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Well that does make it harder. Debian's system at least tries to deal > with that, and usually manages. There are people who don't know what > they are doing making packages with crappy dependancies however which > break things. The system can't protect you from human error. Case in point... older versions of OpenOffice. Would not build without PAM, and wouldn't build or run without Java. After a lot of yelling and screaming, the current version will build against GCJ instead of a Java runtime, and it'll build with merely PAM-headers present, not requiring PAM itself. It's one of the few packages for which I opt to use a pre-built binary. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 03:40:37 2006 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407033622.GD6886-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Walter Dnes wrote: > Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for > some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. > And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to > optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. Yeah, that may also make you feel it runs faster, it's like placebo, you know ;) --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 04:26:27 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 00:26:27 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144372911.17053.9.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2006/4/6, John Van Ostrand : > RPM based systems can be fixed quite easily. > Altered files can be found with "rpm -Va" and inspected. And I don't know much about it but perhaps Anthony Towns' cruft(8) utility can do the same thing for Debian-based distros. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not a sysadmin... But is this really any easier than reimaging when a large enough percentage of files on a large enough number of machines become infected or corrupted? Reimaging is easy enough that even junior help-desk workers can do the repetitive part of the work, and they probably already know how to do it. They are less likely to know how to use other tools like rpm -Va, and so would have to be taught. Plus, I assume rpm -Va does not affect binaries not originally from any .rpm which is sitting in /usr/local/stow or in a user's home directory. Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 04:37:28 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 00:37:28 -0400 Subject: VoIP (was: Proxy websites) Message-ID: 2006/4/6, Dave Cramer : > On a more serious note, does anyone know how skype punches through > firewalls. This is for a legitimate embedded device application. Perhaps they use UPnP, or perhaps all conversations go through a central server (the U.S. Department of Homeland Security would encourage such a setup I'm sure), or perhaps only conversations where both users are firewalled go through a central server. I wonder, too, how Skype conference calls work. A telecom expert by the name of Isen wrote an excellent paper called Rise of the Stupid Network (available on the web) which talks about the big telcos. He explains that a big failing of the telcos is that they make features (e.g. three-way calling, call waiting) built into the telephone network instead of implemented in the phones. This makes the network a crufty and expensive one to maintain, and makes it very difficult to add new functionality. He predicts that the telcos will sink unless they adopt new technologies that work on "stupid" networks that just forward bits, such as the Internet. (Of course, I think Bell Canada will still be around for a while, as people depend on the reliability of the Bell phone system, but anyhow...) I wonder if Skype (and Gmail Talk, once they support conferencing... it's inevitable) will forward conference calls through a central server for sound mixing and echo cancellation - if they did, that would start to go against the Stupid Network idea. Won't IP multicast be a reality Real Soon Now(tm)? Isn't a central server a limitation, as opposed to an advantage? P.S. It's late at night, sorry I'm rambling... :-) Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 04:52:24 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:52:24 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1144385545.19433.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 00:26 -0400, Jason Spiro wrote: > 2006/4/6, John Van Ostrand : > > RPM based systems can be fixed quite easily. > > Altered files can be found with "rpm -Va" and inspected. > And I don't know much about it but perhaps Anthony Towns' cruft(8) > utility can do the same thing for Debian-based distros. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not a sysadmin... I don't know what cruft does but rpm -Va validates the installed files by checksum, size, ctime, perms, etc against what was originally installed. > But is this really any easier than reimaging when a large enough > percentage of files on a large enough number of machines become > infected or corrupted? Depends on your user base and the desktops. Not all offices use images. Sure the large ones do, but imaging can remove setup and other data. An in-place repair can retain all the customizations and works whether or not an image was used to deploy the system. Since most rootkits replace the same binaries the procedure could be as simple as: chattr -ias /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/sbin/* /usr/bin/* /etc/* rpm -ivh --noscripts --force procps... psutils... findutils... etc. etc. A quick ps check will show the nasty the processes. A find using the date stamp of the worm executable will locate other files. A removal of the worm exe will prevent it from starting even if you don't check for startup code (inittab, cron, profile, etc.) > Reimaging is easy enough that even junior help-desk workers can do the > repetitive part of the work, and they probably already know how to do > it. They are less likely to know how to use other tools like rpm -Va, > and so would have to be taught. If an intrusion is detected it should not be left to a help desk junior. A senior or intermediate admin should diagnose, document, evaluate the risk, scan for others and give help desk instructions on removal. This could be a shell script. > Plus, I assume rpm -Va does not affect binaries not originally from > any .rpm which is sitting in /usr/local/stow or in a user's home > directory. Correct. Binaries not from an RPM will not get checked. Tripwire can be used instead, or you can create RPM packages for each custom program. Seems like if one went to the bother of creating, testing and deploying images, that one would take the time to create RPMS and deploy with kickstart. I'm confused about the concern with a user's home dir. How does a reimage fix a home dir. It either blows it and the user's data away (if it's local) or it remains intact and ready to re-infect because it's on a server. In my experience it has also been that out-of-date servers are the ones that are most affected by root kits. They have the exposed services. They also are not usually deployed by images and often are complex enough that re-installation would cause too much downtime. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 05:28:49 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:28:49 +0300 (IDT) Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: <44358497.20301-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <44358497.20301@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Jamon Camisso wrote: > They're doing a good job at defending themselves I'd say. Groklaw has a great > article today titled "A Chart to Immortalize SCO's Lack of Specificity". Take > a read here: > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060405202303212 That is what I was alluding to with Kafkas 'Lawsuit'. In it, a man is accused of a crime, judged, and convicted. He never finds out what he is accused of. Catch 22 without *any* hilarity. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 05:45:01 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:45:01 +0300 (IDT) Subject: VoIP (was: Proxy websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > the name of Isen wrote an excellent paper called Rise of the Stupid > Network (available on the web) which talks about the big telcos. He > explains that a big failing of the telcos is that they make features > (e.g. three-way calling, call waiting) built into the telephone > network instead of implemented in the phones. This makes the network a > crufty and expensive one to maintain, and makes it very difficult to > add new functionality. He predicts that the telcos will sink unless > they adopt new technologies that work on "stupid" networks that just > forward bits, such as the Internet. (Of course, I think Bell Canada I think that Isen did not know about economies of scale and maintainabbility over 20 years. A small PX that serves 10,000 people fits in a single small room, can be upgraded in software to support 3-way calls and anything you like, and all the parts that go poof when lightning strikes anywhere within 2-3km, are in that room. The equipment, once laid out, can be expected to last 20 years of continuous use, with some minor maintenance. Of course none of this is good for data services, but there is *nothing* wrong with the way a normal telco operates (and has been for almost 100 years now). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 06:11:49 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:11:49 -0400 Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <44358497.20301@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <443602A5.7060700@utoronto.ca> Peter wrote: > On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> They're doing a good job at defending themselves I'd say. Groklaw has >> a great article today titled "A Chart to Immortalize SCO's Lack of >> Specificity". Take a read here: >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060405202303212 > > That is what I was alluding to with Kafkas 'Lawsuit'. In it, a man is > accused of a crime, judged, and convicted. He never finds out what he is > accused of. Catch 22 without *any* hilarity. Having only ever read The Metamorphosis, that allusion (and the Catch 22) was lost on me. I'll them to my list of things to read. In this case though, I can't see how IBM will be convicted. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 07:34:09 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:34:09 +0300 (IDT) Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: <443602A5.7060700-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <44358497.20301@utoronto.ca> <443602A5.7060700@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> That is what I was alluding to with Kafkas 'Lawsuit'. In it, a man is >> accused of a crime, judged, and convicted. He never finds out what he is >> accused of. Catch 22 without *any* hilarity. > > Having only ever read The Metamorphosis, that allusion (and the Catch 22) was > lost on me. I'll them to my list of things to read. In this case though, I > can't see how IBM will be convicted. http://www.fragmentsweb.org/stuff/10kafka.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_22 Note: Kafka is not easy reading. He hated paragraph breaks for some reason. Joseph Heller is too easy reading, and it usually makes people re-read it a few times later looking for wisdom missed the first few times ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 07:34:58 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:34:58 +0300 (IDT) Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: <443602A5.7060700-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060406190350.75474.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <44358497.20301@utoronto.ca> <443602A5.7060700@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Also Kafka's 'Trial' is on Project Gutenberg, full text. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 09:05:21 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 05:05:21 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <443583CC.8070808-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <84e9f1ee0603301920o7434533cy4357dbaf7c0f728f@mail.gmail.com> <20060406125505.C18161@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0604061034h451120bj885f2db1b3adf988@mail.gmail.com> <200604061447.27204.interlug@weait.net> <443583CC.8070808@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604070205r67623524y35cdfb3f0e71e6a6@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Wrong or not, there isn't really anything to be done about it IMO, apart > from not submitting a photo. Or a photo of tux. That was great. =) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 09:48:54 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 05:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Walter Dnes wrote: > >> Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for >> some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. >> And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to >> optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. > > Yeah, that may also make you feel it runs faster, it's like > placebo, you know ;) So what we need is a control experiment. We take 2 identical systems, compile one for the correct cpu and the other for i386. Then we have the admin run a series of commands on each box while wearing a blindfold. The admin has to tell us which system is faster. Let's call it the "Gentoo challenge". :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 11:32:36 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 07:32:36 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the younger Open Souce crowd. Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 13:07:42 2006 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George In-Reply-To: <443583CC.8070808-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443583CC.8070808@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060407130742.48153.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > So I asked a law student that I know, what the > deal is. Turns out we > > are all correct. It's wrong to use a photo of the > applicant for > > discrimination. But it's okay to require a photo > if it is needed for > > some reason. See the example below. I think that's the idea and it's clearly expressed in the Human Rights Comission documents; the employers can ask for things if they are related to performing the job, like a picture if you are applying for a modeling job, or they can discriminate against people in wheelchairs if the job requires lifting heavy equipment (that's why in retail you have to confirm you can lift 20 pounds or whatever) or driving a forklift, but not if the job involves say, writing code in a computer. > > It's too bad that if you submit a photo and it is > used for > discriminatory purposes i.e. you don't get an > interview lets say, you > can't really prove that you were subject to > discrimination. As much as > the Charter is there, it shouldn't really apply. If > anyone applying for > a job submits a photo with their application because > it is requested, > then they are complicit in whatever violation of > whatever rights they > claim are being violated -- if you permit it you > promote it. I disagree. We're going way off-topic here, but that's like saying that people who sign abusive contracts (by ignorance for example) are accomplices of people doing something illegal in the first place. > > Wrong or not, there isn't really anything to be done > about it IMO, apart > from not submitting a photo. Something can be done, in the same way that when you see something you think is illegal; you can report it to the proper place - the Human Rights Comission in this case, and then they'll investigate the case. Fernando > > Jamon > -- --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 13:29:26 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:29:26 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407023204.GA6886-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407023204.GA6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060407132926.GM4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:32:04PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:30:11AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > Actually I think you are entirely wrong. Linux is so efficient at the > > use of memory for shared objects that it only loads one copy no matter > > how many programs and users are using it. > > Only one copy of perl, only one copy of python, only one copy of PHP, > only one copy of QT, only one copy of GTK, only one copy of Java, only > one copy of Ruby... etc, etc. *THAT IS THE PROBLEM*. Would you like to go back to things like HPUX 9 and applications written in fortran 77? HPUX 9 didn't even support shared libraries. They were all static. To deal with running X on this, they linked ALL of the X stuff (window manager, xterm, cde desktop manager, etc) into a single multiuse binary, since they did support copy on write. So xterm was an 8MB binary, hardlinked to the same binary as the X server and the window manager, etc. Good luck as soon as you tried to run any other X application, which of course also ended up rather huge, and being a new binary would of course not share one bit with the X stuff already running. The fortran 77 application I remember dealing with was unigraphics. Since fortran 77 didn't have dynamic memory allocation, they had setup most structures as arrays of 65536 elements, just in case they ever needed them. So a single instance of the application took about 95MB of ram, no matter what size your drawing was. I have a pretty good idea what the 256MB ram those workstations had in them cost at the time (this was around 1997). Remember kde and gtk are optional. Linux does not require them. No one makes you use them on your system if you don't want to, and there are lots of useful programs that don't use them. You don't need php at all if you don't run a web server with php scripting (most of my machines don't). You don't need java (most of my machines don't have java either), you don't need ruby (whatever uses that anyhow?). perl and python I do have lots of things using, and they are not that big. You don't need emacs (that should save more space than most of the scripting languages), and you can run without gtk and qt installed, as long as you are willing to not use a certain set of applications. At least qt is easy to avoid. firefox is kind of nice to have around, although there is always opera I guess. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 13:32:05 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:32:05 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604061548i63eb6cf5x2347363b364720b8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061548i63eb6cf5x2347363b364720b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060407133205.GN4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 06:48:43PM -0400, Sy Ali wrote: > I guess the sacrifice is that power users who really do like being on > the edge are now forced to build their own applications from source. > This used to be quite annoying, but it's gotten quite a lot easier. I > think that the balance a distro like debian has is quite good. Actually if you run debian's 'unstable' branch, you are pretty close to bleeding edge a lot of the time. > I'd generally agree that there is a very plain "it just barely works" > solution for most package managers.. but.. the package manager's > metadata should be thought on at length.. just like the website is. > It really should describe things better. Finding a typo is one thing, > but not having a clue why an application is different than any other > application is really annoying. > > Of course, at that point I install it.. and its dependancies.. and try > it out. Then I uninstall it.. and.. am left with all the dependancies > to clean up myself. =) aptitude in debian actually flags things installed as a dependancy as 'auto installed' and will remove it when nothing depends on it anymore. There is also deborphan, although it is a bit more work to use. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 13:42:54 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:42:54 -0400 Subject: VoIP (was: Proxy websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2006/4/7, Peter : > > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > I think that Isen did not know about economies of scale and > maintainabbility over 20 years. A small PX that serves 10,000 people > fits in a single small room, can be upgraded in software to support > 3-way calls and anything you like, and all the parts that go poof when > lightning strikes anywhere within 2-3km, are in that room. The > equipment, once laid out, can be expected to last 20 years of continuous > use, with some minor maintenance. > > Of course none of this is good for data services, but there is *nothing* > wrong with the way a normal telco operates (and has been for almost 100 > years now). Hmm, that makes sense, I guess PBX's are very cheap and very reliable when you think of the TCO. But how about for Bell Canada? Would you not agree that a large part of telcos' profit comes from added-value features like call waiting, 3-way calling, etc. and collect calls and other overpriced long distance services especially? And that it is much more difficult to add more added-value features to the telephone network than to a VoIP protocol? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 14:31:09 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:31:09 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407033622.GD6886-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Walter Dnes : > > Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for > some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. > And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to > optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. > Are the benefits of Gentoo all that they are cracked up to be? I've been looking into it for a old computer and don't know if all the in-depth configuration I've been hearing about will be worth it. I suppose my question is, is Gentoo a Joe-Linux-user distro or a Joe-power-Linux-user-with-years-and-years-of-sysadmin-experiences distro? Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 14:39:00 2006 From: paul-trWFDORQd8hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Paul Osman) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:39:00 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407023204.GA6886-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407023204.GA6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 6-Apr-06, at 10:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:30:11AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > >> Actually I think you are entirely wrong. Linux is so efficient at >> the >> use of memory for shared objects that it only loads one copy no >> matter >> how many programs and users are using it. > > Only one copy of perl, only one copy of python, only one copy of > PHP, > only one copy of QT, only one copy of GTK, only one copy of Java, only > one copy of Ruby... etc, etc. *THAT IS THE PROBLEM*. There's a very simple solution to that problem: don't install applications that depend on these things. That's what emerge -- pretend is for. What you're complaining about is a bit of a contradiction... it seems you want a lot of applications (I assume this is why you're pulling in these dependencies) but you don't want programmers to have a lot of choices... those choices (Ruby, Perl, Python, etc) are precisely the reason that there are so many applications for you to use. Solution: either only install applications with light dependencies, or suck it up and enjoy all those apps you like. You'll need python on perl at the very least (perl is so ubiquitous and well, portage is written in python) but they really don't take up *that* much space. -Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 15:10:39 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:10:39 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1144420269.443677ad968cf-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <443680EF.3030608@utoronto.ca> wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Quoting Walter Dnes : >> Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for >> some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. >> And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to >> optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. >> > > Are the benefits of Gentoo all that they are cracked up to be? I've been > looking into it for a old computer and don't know if all the in-depth > configuration I've been hearing about will be worth it. I suppose my question > is, is Gentoo a Joe-Linux-user distro or a > Joe-power-Linux-user-with-years-and-years-of-sysadmin-experiences distro? Both, depending on how far you want to go, just like any other distro. The install handbook walks you through the process in 11 steps. Fairly easy to follow, and it can use precompiled binaries for its major pieces (OpenOffice, Gnome, KDE etc.) so that you don't have to leave it on compiling for 3 days on older hardware. Despite what some claim, there is more at work than the placebo effect with regards to speed. Though I haven't done anything in a rigorously controlled manner, the speed increase in many applications is, both in terms of lanuch speed and responsiveness, noticeable and appreciated when compared to other distros. Give it a try if you are at all curious, you might find that it's just what you have been looking for. I don't use it much anymore, but that's just my preference; for no particular reason at all. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 15:14:02 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:14:02 +0000 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1144420269.443677ad968cf-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Quoting Walter Dnes : > > > > Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for > > some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. > > And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to > > optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. > > > > Are the benefits of Gentoo all that they are cracked up to be? I've been > looking into it for a old computer and don't know if all the in-depth > configuration I've been hearing about will be worth it. I suppose my question > is, is Gentoo a Joe-Linux-user distro or a > Joe-power-Linux-user-with-years-and-years-of-sysadmin-experiences distro? Gentoo seems to be an enormous "placebo effect," where people seem to imagine that compiling things with their fave custom flags makes things mo betta. So what it's more for are the people that want Total Control that thought that Slackware was irritating because it didn't have enough packages for them. http://funroll-loops.org/ The argument there is that Gentoo is a "annoying teenager next door with a 90hp import sporting a 6 foot tall bolt-on wing." http://funroll-loops.org/gentoo.jpg "Gentoo Linux: It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others." -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:33:06 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:33:06 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:03:45PM -0400, Sy Ali wrote: > > Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit > > knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, > > PHP, python or even TCL. > > Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) Looks to me like: PHP: 1995 Java: 1995 Ruby: 1993 Python: 1991 Perl: 1987 TCL: 1968 (hardly a newcomer) I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at least compared to perl. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:34:57 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:34:57 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060407173457.GP4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 11:40:37PM -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > Sounds like you're ready for Gentoo. No dependancy hell, except for > > some idiotic software that insists on other stuff that you *DON'T* want. > > And that can be bypassed with a little extra work. And you get to > > optimize the executables for *YOUR* cpu. > > Yeah, that may also make you feel it runs faster, it's like > placebo, you know ;) After waiting for the compile, anything will feel fast. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:36:54 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060407173654.GQ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 05:48:54AM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > So what we need is a control experiment. We take 2 identical systems, > compile one for the correct cpu and the other for i386. Then we have the > admin run a series of commands on each box while wearing a blindfold. The > admin has to tell us which system is faster. > > Let's call it the "Gentoo challenge". Why i386? glibc can't even compile for i386 anymore (needs i486 I believe). At least use that. That is what debian uses now. i386 gets the missing instructions (only a few) emulated in the kernel similar to how the fpu is emulated when missing. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:50:58 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:50:58 +0000 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <20060407173306.GO4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:03:45PM -0400, Sy Ali wrote: > > > Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit > > > knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, > > > PHP, python or even TCL. > > > > Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) > > Looks to me like: > PHP: 1995 > Java: 1995 > Ruby: 1993 > Python: 1991 > Perl: 1987 > TCL: 1968 (hardly a newcomer) > > I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at > least compared to perl. :) According to the history of tcl (having it in the .tk TLD is pretty cool :-)) http://www.tcl.tk/about/history.html work began on Tcl in early 1988. So it's more or less a contemporary of Perl... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:52:20 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:52:20 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407173654.GQ4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173654.GQ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Lennart Sorensen : > On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 05:48:54AM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > > So what we need is a control experiment. We take 2 identical systems, > > compile one for the correct cpu and the other for i386. Then we have the > > admin run a series of commands on each box while wearing a blindfold. The > > admin has to tell us which system is faster. > > > > Let's call it the "Gentoo challenge". > > Why i386? glibc can't even compile for i386 anymore (needs i486 I > believe). At least use that. That is what debian uses now. i386 gets > the missing instructions (only a few) emulated in the kernel similar to > how the fpu is emulated when missing. > > Len Sorensen This is getting un-linux related, but I've never known what i386/486/etc. refers to and how you tell the difference. I know that x86 simply refers to the Intel architecture, but the numbers 3 to 6 are what I don't know. Like, does Pentium II or III correspond to one of those numbers? Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 17:59:29 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:59:29 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407034338.GE6886-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407034338.GE6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060407175929.GR4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 11:43:38PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Case in point... older versions of OpenOffice. Would not build > without PAM, and wouldn't build or run without Java. After a lot of > yelling and screaming, the current version will build against GCJ > instead of a Java runtime, and it'll build with merely PAM-headers > present, not requiring PAM itself. It's one of the few packages for > which I opt to use a pre-built binary. Somehow debian managed to make it run without java (I think it MIGHT have needed java to build). Not sure why any system would not want pam anyhow. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 18:12:27 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:12:27 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173654.GQ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <20060407181227.GS4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:52:20PM -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > This is getting un-linux related, but I've never known what i386/486/etc. refers > to and how you tell the difference. I know that x86 simply refers to the Intel > architecture, but the numbers 3 to 6 are what I don't know. Like, does Pentium > II or III correspond to one of those numbers? i386 was the intel 80386 processor's instruction set. For the most part intel has been good at maintaining compabitility with older chips when they release a new one. New chips might not run optimally with code optimized for an older chip, but they will run the code at least. The intel 80486 added a few instructions which were found to be useful to what the 386 offered, some of which make some common operations much simpler and faster to implement. This is why glibc decided to use them at the expense of 386 support. The 486 also had a pipeline, and code tends to be optimized for that when you compile for a 486, while the 386 simply did one instruction at a time, and didn't start another one until done the prior one. 486 code runs quite well on newer chips, since they all have pipelines, and most of the added instructions are for special purposes. i586 tends to refer to the pentium (P5) generation of chips. I don't remember if the k6 is considered i586 or i686 level of instructions, but nexgen, cyrix M* and a few others were using this instruction set. i686 is the instruction set of the P6 generation, which is the Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium !!!, and Pentium 4, as well as the Athlon processors (also sometimes called k7). Different cpus added more new instructions (the P3 added a new mode as well to handle the registers added by SSE). Code that uses new instructions needs that level of cpu, while code can be optimized fairly well for most of them in the same way. The Pentium 4 is probably the most different of all of them, due to having a much much longer pipeline that normal and relying much more on the new instructions for peak performance. amd64 (x86_64) is the instruction set of the Opteron/Athlon 64 series of chips, which takes the instruction set of the i686 and adds new 64bit instructions, and yet another mode of operation (the long mode for 64bit). Intel cpus support these extensions if they have em64t support. Of the 32bit architectures, the 386 to 486 transition probably had the most to gain due to some very key added instructions. Most of the later ones (before 64bit) were only adding instructions for multimedia and vector processing, which often requires writing the assembly manually for the key parts to use it. Some programs even look at the cpu features and pick a code path that supports the optimal instruction set for that cpu (mplayer for example). If you optimize for a specific generation, other generations will probably run slightly less efficiently, while if you compile for a specific instruction set, older generations can't run the code at all. gcc has options both for optimization (alignment and instruction ordering) and for instruction set choice (which instructions are allowed to be used). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 18:15:40 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:15:40 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 05:50:58PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote: > > Looks to me like: > > PHP: 1995 > > Java: 1995 > > Ruby: 1993 > > Python: 1991 > > Perl: 1987 > > TCL: 1968 (hardly a newcomer) > > > > I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at > > least compared to perl. :) > > According to the history of tcl (having it in the .tk TLD is pretty cool :-)) > http://www.tcl.tk/about/history.html > work began on Tcl in early 1988. So it's more or less a contemporary of Perl... Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would have expected in 1968. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 18:17:56 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060407181756.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:32:36AM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the younger > Open Souce crowd. > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? What qualifies people as 'younger'? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 18:21:06 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Quoting Lennart Sorensen > : > > > On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 05:48:54AM -0400, Robert > Brockway wrote: > > > So what we need is a control experiment. We > take 2 identical systems, > > > compile one for the correct cpu and the other > for i386. Then we have the > > > admin run a series of commands on each box while > wearing a blindfold. The > > > admin has to tell us which system is faster. > > > > > > Let's call it the "Gentoo challenge". > > > > Why i386? glibc can't even compile for i386 > anymore (needs i486 I > > believe). At least use that. That is what debian > uses now. i386 gets > > the missing instructions (only a few) emulated in > the kernel similar to > > how the fpu is emulated when missing. > > > > Len Sorensen > > This is getting un-linux related, but I've never > known what i386/486/etc. refers > to and how you tell the difference. I know that x86 > simply refers to the Intel > architecture, but the numbers 3 to 6 are what I > don't know. Like, does Pentium > II or III correspond to one of those numbers? When it comes to the numbers, the 8086 was Intel's first effort at a 16-bit CPU chip, which was followed by the cost reduced version the 8088 CPU (a chip that was used by IBM for the first IBM PCs, as it looked to the software developers to be a 16 bit chip, but to the hardware developers like an 8 bit chip). This was followed by the 80186 chip (that for several reasons tanked in the market), then came the 80286 chip. Next came the 80386 or Intel '386 or simply i386 chip, which is what Linus wrote the first Linux for (because there was some hardware support for virtual memory on the chip). Next came another upgrade to the 80486 chip. In other words things went as follows: - 8086 - 8088 - 80186 - 80286 - 80386 - 80486 For Intel there was a marketting problem with the 80486 chip, after a court battle Intel found out they could NOT trademark just a number, so they could not say stop AMD from calling their Intel 80486 act-alike chip an 80486. The the replacement for the Intel 80486 chip was called a Pentium, with Intel trademarking the name so that no other firm could use that name in connection with a CPU chip. Since then each generation of Intel chips has had the Pentium name plus a name or a number. So this lot went as follows: - Pentium - Pentium Pro - Pentium II - Pentium III - Pentium IV Hope this helps. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 18:37:33 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:37:33 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407182106.99729.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060407183733.GV4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 02:21:06PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > For Intel there was a marketting problem with the > 80486 chip, after a court battle Intel found out they > could NOT trademark just a number, so they could not > say stop AMD from calling their Intel 80486 act-alike > chip an 80486. The the replacement for the Intel 80486 > chip was called a Pentium, with Intel trademarking the > name so that no other firm could use that name in > connection with a CPU chip. Since then each generation > of Intel chips has had the Pentium name plus a name or > a number. So this lot went as follows: > > - Pentium > - Pentium Pro > - Pentium II > - Pentium III > - Pentium IV > > Hope this helps. Ehm, I wonder if intel thinks they can trademark 'core', 'solo' or 'duo'? I guess they are only trademarking them as combinations. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ulf.kellermann-IcexAN+8CcBBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 19:06:52 2006 From: ulf.kellermann-IcexAN+8CcBBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Ulf Kellermann) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:06:52 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <20060407181756.GU4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <20060407181756.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200604071506.53260.ulf.kellermann@exaecon.com> Hi my age +1 Ulf On Friday 07 April 2006 14:17, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:32:36AM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the younger > > Open Souce crowd. > > > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? > > What qualifies people as 'younger'? > > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 19:07:20 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:07:20 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the younger > Open Souce crowd. > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? Depending on where it is and how young a young 'un must be, I can say that I'd be interested. Some of the fellows who listen to LUGradio regularly have suggested finding a pub and listening there at some point as well (a pub that will bear with the language and listeners). Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 19:29:03 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:29:03 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <4436B868.5000903-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: 2006/4/7, Jamon Camisso : > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? Jamon, I'd definitely be interested, the problem is that though I'm only 21 I've stopped learning new games. Except NetHack. I only started a few months ago and now I'm already 1% through the game! :-D Too bad NetHack isn't multiplayer... > Depending on where it is and how young a young 'un must be, I can say > that I'd be interested. Some of the fellows who listen to LUGradio > regularly have suggested finding a pub and listening there at some > point as well (a pub that will bear with the language and listeners). It'd be even better if we made our own podcast in competition to LUGRadio, coming out, say, every 2 months. Would people on list be interested? Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 19:50:45 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 22:50:45 +0300 (IDT) Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <20060407181540.GT4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is > from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have > realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would > have expected in 1968. Lisp is higher level than Tcl and predates it ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 20:07:48 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:07:48 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: 2006/4/7, Peter : > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is > > from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have > > realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would > > have expected in 1968. > > Lisp is higher level than Tcl and predates it ... > The problem is with the brackets. No matter how good Lisp is, people will still stay away from learning more about it because they're scared of parentheses for some reason. :-) Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 20:24:20 2006 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > 2006/4/7, Peter : >> On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is >>> from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have >>> realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would >>> have expected in 1968. >> >> Lisp is higher level than Tcl and predates it ... >> > The problem is with the brackets. No matter how good Lisp is, people > will still stay away from learning more about it because they're > scared of parentheses for some reason. :-) The problem is not the parentheses so much as the style that lisp coders use: "))))))))))))))" does look intimidating. If they were indented in the way most other language styles prefer, they would be quite understandable. -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 20:33:50 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:33:50 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Lisp uses an almost universally-standard Lisp indentation style known as "pretty-printing." I'm sure Paul Graham mentions Lisp editing tools somewhere on his website full of great Lisp info, www.paulgraham.com but Emacs and I think maybe even Vim can do pretty-printing automatically. On 4/7/06, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > 2006/4/7, Peter : > >> On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >>> Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is > >>> from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have > >>> realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would > >>> have expected in 1968. > >> > >> Lisp is higher level than Tcl and predates it ... > >> > > The problem is with the brackets. No matter how good Lisp is, people > > will still stay away from learning more about it because they're > > scared of parentheses for some reason. :-) > > The problem is not the parentheses so much as the style that lisp > coders use: "))))))))))))))" does look intimidating. If they were > indented in the way most other language styles prefer, they would > be quite understandable. > > -- > Chris F.A. Johnson > =================================================================== > Author: > Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 20:37:02 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > Too bad NetHack isn't multiplayer... My I suggest Crossfire: http://crossfire.real-time.com There are a few forks too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 21:21:19 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:21:19 +0000 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > 2006/4/7, Peter : > >> On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >>> Doh. I misread the small print on the chart I looked at. Yes tcl is > >>> from 1988. :( So it matches with perl in age. :) I thought have > >>> realized that given it is a much higher level language than what I would > >>> have expected in 1968. > >> > >> Lisp is higher level than Tcl and predates it ... > >> > > The problem is with the brackets. No matter how good Lisp is, people > > will still stay away from learning more about it because they're > > scared of parentheses for some reason. :-) > > The problem is not the parentheses so much as the style that lisp > coders use: "))))))))))))))" does look intimidating. If they were > indented in the way most other language styles prefer, they would > be quite understandable. "Parentheses? What parentheses? I haven't noticed any parentheses since my first month of Lisp programming. I like to ask people who complain about parentheses in Lisp if they are bothered by all the spaces between words in a newspaper..." -- Kenny Tilton If you're using a text editor that knows how to indent parentheses in good form, then it truly does cease to be a problem after about the first month of programming in Lisp. The following is a bit of Lisp that, as it happens, runs about every 60 seconds on several of my boxes, in order to update .signatures. Yeah, there are a bunch of parentheses at the end of the function. Putting them on separate lines would NOT make the code any more readable; to the contrary, it would make it a lot LESS readable. (defun build-cookie-file (dest cookie) (let ((fpath (cookielocation-fpath dest)) (signer (cookielocation-signer dest)) (website (cookielocation-website dest)) (prefix-lines (cookielocation-prefix-lines dest)) (suffix-lines (cookielocation-suffix-lines dest)) (humorlessp (cookielocation-humorlessp dest)) (cookieprefix (cookielocation-cookieprefix dest))) (with-open-file (out fpath :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) (loop for cookieline in prefix-lines do (format OUT "~A~%" cookieline)) (if humorlessp (format OUT *LIBSIG* signer) (loop for cookieline in (append (if website (list signer website)) cookie) do (format OUT "~A~%" (funcall cookieprefix cookieline)))) (loop for cookieline in suffix-lines do (format OUT "~A~%" cookieline))))) -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/lisp.html "A lot of people come to this newsgroup and do nothing but complain about Lisp. I think maybe they are such heavy complainers that they think they read comp.lain.lisp." -- Erik Naggum -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 21:59:17 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:59:17 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: > My I suggest Crossfire: > > http://crossfire.real-time.com > > There are a few forks too. Hmm, I think I'll look into that. For now I just use Slash'EM over Don Libes' kibitz(1) with my cousin. We take turns and constantly discuss strategy and what to do next. Since he's on Windoze, I've made him an account, he SSHes in, and he kibitzes in to localhost. We use Skype for VoIP because GnomeMeeting requires too many open ports and I use a cheap off-the-shelf SMC router. (For those of you who've never used kibitz: Kibitz comes in the expect(1) examples folder, but it's a very well-debugged script that lets two people cooperatively play NetHack*H*H*H*H*H*H*H*H*H*H*H I mean, work on software development and other worthy projects.) :-) Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:14:47 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 07 Apr 2006 18:14:47 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Sy Ali" writes: > > Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit > > knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, > > PHP, python or even TCL. > > Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) Tcl, too. back from 1988 or 1989, I believe. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:16:37 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 07 Apr 2006 18:16:37 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <20060407173306.GO4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > Looks to me like: > PHP: 1995 > Java: 1995 > Ruby: 1993 > Python: 1991 > Perl: 1987 > TCL: 1968 (hardly a newcomer) > > I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at > least compared to perl. :) I think that you have the wrong Tcl: http://www.tcl.tk/about/history.html 1988. Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:17:12 2006 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 07 Apr 2006 18:17:12 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: "Christopher Browne" writes: > > I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at > > least compared to perl. :) > > According to the history of tcl (having it in the .tk TLD is pretty cool :-)) > http://www.tcl.tk/about/history.html > work began on Tcl in early 1988. So it's more or less a contemporary of Perl... Sheesh. I really should read the whole thread before responding ... /me slinks away... -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:15:12 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:15:12 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4436E470.2060103@utoronto.ca> Jason Spiro wrote: > 2006/4/7, Jamon Camisso : >>> Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? > > Jamon, > > I'd definitely be interested, the problem is that though I'm only 21 > I've stopped learning new games. > > Except NetHack. I only started a few months ago and now I'm already 1% > through the game! :-D > > Too bad NetHack isn't multiplayer... Same goes for angband... >> Depending on where it is and how young a young 'un must be, I can say >> that I'd be interested. Some of the fellows who listen to LUGradio >> regularly have suggested finding a pub and listening there at some >> point as well (a pub that will bear with the language and listeners). > > It'd be even better if we made our own podcast in competition to > LUGRadio, coming out, say, every 2 months. Would people on list be > interested? Sure, that sounds like a great idea! jokosher (the lugradio project for a multitrack audio editor) would be a great tool to use too. I'm sure that many people on this list and in the Toronto area would be interesting to interview and would be only to happy to speak. Competition? Hmm, collaboration or representation sound like better words to me. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:20:04 2006 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:20:04 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> (Scott Elcomb's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2006 07:32:36 -0400") References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87u095auzv.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> "Scott Elcomb" writes: > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the > younger Open Souce crowd. Is there any interest for a House/Lan > party? Hey, I'd love to meet other young 'uns. I'll be out from April 23 to April 30. Maybe May 5 or 6? Bring your favorite game / project / hack / whatever. (Mine would be my really hairy ~/.emacs config, I guess... ;) ) -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:25:44 2006 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:25:44 -0400 Subject: 85% languages In-Reply-To: (Christopher Browne's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:21:19 +0000") References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <87psjtauqf.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> "Christopher Browne" writes: > "Parentheses? What parentheses? I haven't noticed any parentheses > since my first month of Lisp programming. I like to ask people who > complain about parentheses in Lisp if they are bothered by all the > spaces between words in a newspaper..." > -- Kenny Tilton I totally agree. LISP's parentheses just make the syntax more consistent. After a while, you get used to hitting ) enough times. The editor's color and indentation cues make sure everything's right. And non-LISP people have no idea how much fun it is to have editing commands that work on blocks... =) -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 22:31:18 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 01:31:18 +0300 (IDT) Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > The problem is not the parentheses so much as the style that lisp > coders use: "))))))))))))))" does look intimidating. If they were > indented in the way most other language styles prefer, they would > be quite understandable. There is a version of Lisp where you can have the editor put in the )))... by just putting in a '}'. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 7 23:47:52 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:47:52 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4436FA28.9010009@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to hear from the younger > Open Souce crowd. > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? And perhaps have some singing at the party? "This lan is your lan. This lan is my lan..." ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 00:10:20 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:10:20 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173654.GQ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1144432340.4436a6d456bc7@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <4436FF6C.4000502@rogers.com> wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > This is getting un-linux related, but I've never known what i386/486/etc. refers > to and how you tell the difference. I know that x86 simply refers to the Intel > architecture, but the numbers 3 to 6 are what I don't know. Like, does Pentium > II or III correspond to one of those numbers? The first 32 bit CPUs from Intel were the 80386 and then 80486, following in the line from the 16 bit 8088 & 8086 and 80286. Intel started using the "Pentium" name, when they found they couldn't trademark numbers. For a bit more history, their 1st CPU was the 4 bit 4004 followed by the 4040, then they went 8 bits with the 8008 and 8080. They also made other CPU's that were not generally used in PCs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 00:17:42 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:17:42 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604071717g3a6749at58f2650c3d321fc3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/6/06, Paul Nash wrote: > > >Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) > > You're right, it is. Ruby dates back to Feb 24, 1993. I thought that it > was a child of the late '90's. I thought it was a bit older.. I'm reading some more into it and I'd say Ruby is 1995 (first release appearance). > In most cases, the documentation stinks. That's why you should RTFS :-). > We don't call it "open source" for nothing, you know ... I'll start getting into that when my Ruby skills improve. Then I'll also start hacking away to put inline documentation (RDoc is a nice concept, although I disagree with the markup) > >As a user, I think that I would end up learning the tool and bending > >it to my uses instead of working on the remaining 15. > > Can you say "Microsoft"? There, it's not that hard. Try again a few > times, and when you can do it without barfing, pop into Best Buy and get an > application that you can just "learn and use". Here's the problem: Most mainstream software (read: Microsoft / Windows) has defaults which aren't user-definable and which are geared towards people who have trouble walking and blinking. I'll admit that it's gotten a lot better.. but I wasn't enough of a drooling idiot to want to think in the ways that were defined for me. Plus I was unsettled at needing to steal all the software I used. Most mainstream linux software is built from another perspective. Much of the mainstream stuff (think the popular KDE apps) have sane defaults and are very configurable and nice. This is about where I sit these days. Other popular but less "complete" software can have widely varying sanity levels for defaults but can also be very customizable. With effort these can be shaped to a user's desire. This is where I was, although I spent more time learning and configuring than I'd like to admit. I'm not stupid, but a lot of software sure makes me seem that way. =) Fringe linux software has poor documentation and is only barely functional, or used to be barely functional but has aged and is no longer contemporary enough to be dropped in and used in a common environment. A lot of this stuff is "holy crap that's cool!" but won't ever work out of the box. There's lots of other stuff out there that's even crazier and which could promise incredible things but they're just not ready for actual use. This stuff is pre-pre-alpha, barely done, specialized or narrow-sighted use, etc. Now when I say that I'd rather spend my time bending the software to my needs than developing to get it to 100%, this is only because I'm so desperately lacking in the qualities needed. I end up doing documentation, bug reports and the like rather than actual "useful" coding. And so as a regular user, I end up spending my time shopping for better software or learning how to configure software better rather than cutting it open and fiddling about with its code. > It depends on the developer and/or development team. *YOU* think that they > are driven to develop a spectacular product that will install easily, work > right out the box, and do everything that you want. Oh, and have decent > documentation as well. I'd say it's a safe assumption when it's a more public project which has a user-facing website -- i.e. not a man page turned into HTML, but good docs, tutorials, a mailing list or forum and the like. These are more my concern. These are the applications which are 85% to me. The applications which a hobbyiest would create wouldn't generally get its own URL, attract multiple developers, have user resources like a public mailing list etc. These I wouldn't put so much of a perfectionist's eye on. For the 85s, it does seem to me that their goals include making "best of breed" software .. things like features, configurability, usability, documentation etc. Stepping back and looking at all the choices.. there are cases when I'll see bits and pieces of the "right way to do it" in one applciation which are missing in another.. and vice versa. This is why I end up feeling like each application is capable of more. However, I guess I can't fault there being so many choices.. programmers all have their tool preferences. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 01:22:44 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <4436FA28.9010009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4436FA28.9010009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060408012244.92326.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- James Knott wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > I'll be away for the weekend but I am curious to > hear from the younger > > Open Souce crowd. > > > > Is there any interest for a House/Lan party? I think I would be game for such a thing, and depending on event size I MIGHT even be game for hosting such an event. Hummm, I would have to upgrade the bedroom ethernet ports to 100 Base-T...currently the bedrooms (unlike the rest of the house) are only 10 Base-T... > And perhaps have some singing at the party? > > "This lan is your lan. This lan is my lan..." ;-) Have a look at: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20040815 Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 03:36:18 2006 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:36:18 -0400 Subject: Proxy websites In-Reply-To: <7583D0C9-AC3A-4ECC-BBCF-4F5F7E6E0E6F-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <4435375C.70701@telly.org> <20060406125212.B18161@diamond.ss.org> <7583D0C9-AC3A-4ECC-BBCF-4F5F7E6E0E6F@visibleassets.com> Message-ID: Dave Cramer wrote: > On a more serious note, does anyone know how skype punches through > firewalls. This is for a legitimate embedded device application. The answer may be here: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~mema/courses/cs264/papers/skype-infocom2006.pdf -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 03:54:06 2006 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 23:54:06 -0400 Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/6/06, Peter wrote: > > > This is an unbelievable lawsuit. Just how long can they pull it on ? > Longer than the Bold and the Beautiful ? According to Slashdot IBM are > feeling that the lawsuit is Kafkaesque (with references to 'Der > Proze?'). I already knew that. Is there some precedent to how long a > lawsuit can be drawn out ? Well, there's always the USA v. IBM[1] suit .. launched January 17, 1969, it went to trial May 19, 1975 and was ultimately withdrawn January 8, 1982. That suit was one of the reasons that caused IBM to license an operating system for their IBM PC, rather than develop or buy one -- which suited young Bill Gates just fine. But I digress. The SCO v. IBM case is, to me, a biased observer, a much more clear cut case than USA v. IBM. Lawyers aren't fans of lawsuits. They'd rather negotiate some kind of settlement. I imagine that's what SCO thought would happen .. they'd sue, haggle for a few months, then get the equivalent of half IBM's annual budget for paper clips and be happily be on their way, probably never imagining that it would go to trial. What SCO didn't count on was 1) a very active open source community popping up and tracking the lawsuit[2] and generally tearing their arguments to shreds and 2) a willing opponent not at all in the mood for a settlement. Linux is providing IBM with lots of business -- and IBM doesn't want anything to harm that business. So, it's a business decision to fight this case. Anyway, they don't want companies to get into the habit of suing them and getting piles of cash in a settlement. I expect IBM will either win their case or SCO will collapse, making the case moot. I'm sure the community would prefer that SCO play the case out so we could see what all the fuss was about, and whether there really ever was any infringing code. But SCO's case depends on two legs, the other of which is that SCO 'owns' UNIX. Only if both those legs hold does SCO have a chance; if either one falls, the case falls. To me, neither of those legs looks strong at all. In the meantime, we wait, and observe the twilight zone/parallel universe that SCO's stock price seems to live in. Yes, I'm sure many of us are impatient, but like Wiley E. Coyote falling through the air, gravity will work its magic and SCO will eventually be a lovely cartoon crater in the desert. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario 1. http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/1980.htm 2. http://www.groklaw.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 05:15:10 2006 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 01:15:10 -0400 Subject: sco:ibm lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604080115.10813.glayng@sympatico.ca> On April 7, 2006 23:54, Alex Beamish wrote: > What SCO didn't count on was 1) a very active open source community popping > up and tracking the lawsuit[2] and generally tearing their arguments to > shreds and 2) a willing opponent not at all in the mood for a settlement. > > Linux is providing IBM with lots of business -- and IBM doesn't want > anything to harm that business. So, it's a business decision to fight this > case. Anyway, they don't want companies to get into the habit of suing them > and getting piles of cash in a settlement. I expect IBM will either win > their case or SCO will collapse, making the case moot. > Another thing that SCOX didn't count on was the fact that IBM would actually worry about how being accused of theft would affect their business. They've been accused of criminal acts, and are defending their good name as the asset it is. Companies hire IBM to store their data, how would you like to give the corporate equivalent to the family silver to a thief for safekeeping? Microsoft, which has as valuable a "good name" as Jack the Ripper (how many moms name their kid "Jack the Ripper"?), screamed, "We confess (now tell us what the hell we did)!" and paid, knowing full well that the funds would be used to fund a FUD campaign against Linux. I feel this easy early victory misled SCOX into thinking IBM would be almost as easy a pushover. -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 05:22:14 2006 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 01:22:14 -0400 Subject: Lisp ) completion (was Re: 85% languages) In-Reply-To: (Peter's message of "Sat, 8 Apr 2006 01:31:18 +0300 (IDT)") References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407181540.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <877j60myk9.fsf_-_@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Peter writes: > There is a version of Lisp where you can have the editor put in the > )))... by just putting in a '}'. Come to think of it, that shouldn't be too hard to rig in Emacs. Does anyone already have an Emacs Lisp snippet for that? -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 10:36:06 2006 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 06:36:06 -0400 Subject: VoIP (was: Proxy websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is some evidence that they do use a central server for password authentication, then after that it is a variation of the kazaa protocol. Dave On 7-Apr-06, at 12:37 AM, Jason Spiro wrote: > 2006/4/6, Dave Cramer : >> On a more serious note, does anyone know how skype punches through >> firewalls. This is for a legitimate embedded device application. > Perhaps they use UPnP, or perhaps all conversations go through a > central server (the U.S. Department of Homeland Security would > encourage such a setup I'm sure), or perhaps only conversations where > both users are firewalled go through a central server. > > I wonder, too, how Skype conference calls work. A telecom expert by > the name of Isen wrote an excellent paper called Rise of the Stupid > Network (available on the web) which talks about the big telcos. He > explains that a big failing of the telcos is that they make features > (e.g. three-way calling, call waiting) built into the telephone > network instead of implemented in the phones. This makes the network a > crufty and expensive one to maintain, and makes it very difficult to > add new functionality. He predicts that the telcos will sink unless > they adopt new technologies that work on "stupid" networks that just > forward bits, such as the Internet. (Of course, I think Bell Canada > will still be around for a while, as people depend on the reliability > of the Bell phone system, but anyhow...) > > I wonder if Skype (and Gmail Talk, once they support conferencing... > it's inevitable) will forward conference calls through a central > server for sound mixing and echo cancellation - if they did, that > would start to go against the Stupid Network idea. Won't IP multicast > be a reality Real Soon Now(tm)? Isn't a central server a limitation, > as opposed to an advantage? > > P.S. It's late at night, sorry I'm rambling... :-) > > Jason > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 11:46:54 2006 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 07:46:54 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407182106.99729.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>; from colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 14:21:06 -0400 References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> On Fri Apr 07,2006 02:21:06 PM Colin McGregor wrote: > This was followed by the 80186 chip (that for several > reasons tanked in the market) The 80186 only "tanked" in the consumer market. The various versions of it were very popular in embedded systems. Intel, AMD (and others?) made it part of there embedded line of components. It is still being made today. I would bet that far more '186 based chips have been produced than '286 and '486 combined. (There are numerous CPU's based on the '386 still being produced for the embedded market, so it's in the same boat as the '186.) The company I work for still makes and sells equipment using the 80186 (and '386, but neither in new designs). -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 12:09:44 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 08:09:44 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> Message-ID: <4437A808.7080006@rogers.com> Scott Allen wrote: > On Fri Apr 07,2006 02:21:06 PM Colin McGregor wrote: >> This was followed by the 80186 chip (that for several >> reasons tanked in the market) > > The 80186 only "tanked" in the consumer market. The various versions of > it were very popular in embedded systems. Intel, AMD (and others?) made > it part of there embedded line of components. It is still being made > today. I would bet that far more '186 based chips have been produced > than '286 and '486 combined. (There are numerous CPU's based on the '386 > still being produced for the embedded market, so it's in the same boat > as the '186.) > > The company I work for still makes and sells equipment using the 80186 > (and '386, but neither in new designs). > > Also many of those older chips still exist in logic libraries, for use in custom chips for embedded systems. With these, you'd select a CPU core, add some memory and I/O and you've got a custom controller chip for some device. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 12:21:52 2006 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 08:21:52 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <20060408012244.92326.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4436FA28.9010009@rogers.com> <20060408012244.92326.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > And perhaps have some singing at the party? > > > > "This lan is your lan. This lan is my lan..." ;-) > What then? A resounding version of "It's the End of the Lan as you know it" while we clean up at the end. Or maybe that would be more appropriate at the being. -- Mark Lane, CET -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 12:51:51 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 08:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> References: <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> Message-ID: <20060408125151.11896.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Scott Allen wrote: > On Fri Apr 07,2006 02:21:06 PM Colin McGregor wrote: > > This was followed by the 80186 chip (that for > several > > reasons tanked in the market) > > The 80186 only "tanked" in the consumer market. The > various versions > of it were very popular in embedded systems. Intel, > AMD (and others?) > made it part of there embedded line of components. > It is still being > made today. I would bet that far more '186 based > chips have been > produced than '286 and '486 combined. (There are > numerous CPU's based > on the '386 still being produced for the embedded > market, so it's in > the same boat as the '186.) I am not sure as to numbers, as I have seen '286 and '486 based dedicated controllers. Still, yes, we do tend to forget the 100s of millions of CPU chips that get buried inside things like alarm systems, industrial machines, children's toys, automobiles (often arguably toys for very big children) and even jewellery (don't believe the last one, then see here: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/digital-jewelry3.htm). One of the most successful lines of CPU chips, at least in terms of numbers, that almost nobody has heard of is the Microchip PIC family of CPU chips. Depending on the CPU, quantity ordered, etc., they can be had for as little as $0.43 (U.S.). Now, 43 cents doesn't get much of a CPU, but for some jobs (toasters?) this is just fine, and Microchip has made billions of these low end CPU chips... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 14:04:38 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 10:04:38 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> Message-ID: <1e55af990604080704m74867f52g26452bef23dd69ff@mail.gmail.com> On 4/8/06, Scott Allen wrote: > The 80186 only "tanked" in the consumer market. The various versions > of it were very popular in embedded systems. Intel, AMD (and others?) > made it part of there embedded line of components. It is still being > made today. I've got an hp 200lx palmtop which runs an 80186 (overclocked to almost 15mhz!). I looked into getting Linux running on it.. but at the time nothing was mature enough (minix wasn't quite alive). There was some hacking done to get support for the pcmcia and such.. but nothing was bundled when I last looked. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 19:49:39 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 15:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For the young 'uns... Message-ID: <20060408194939.56713.qmail@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sacha Chua wrote: > Colin McGregor writes: > > hosting such an event. Hummm, I would have to > upgrade > > the bedroom ethernet ports to 100 > Base-T...currently > > the bedrooms (unlike the rest of the house) are > only > > 10 Base-T... > > Mmmm... What about wireless? Good point. Just over a week ago I got a ZyXEL HS-100W wireless router, and a SMC wireless card... For reasons that I will note in one of my next articles I don't totally trust wireless, but yes that is very much an option... > Wireless internet = yummy. I ended up introducing a > couple of other > geeks to social bookmarking the other night just > because I had a > laptop and wireless Net... Well, there is a very nice SMALL park, the "Cloud Forest Conservatory" downtown on Richmond Street a stone throw from Yonge (across the street from the Hudson's Bay Queen Street store) that with the announcement of Wi-Fi in the downtown core come end of June I would love to be able to sit out and do some real work at :-) . Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 8 20:07:37 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:07:37 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <20060408194939.56713.qmail-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060408194939.56713.qmail@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44381809.6040609@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Sacha Chua wrote: >> Colin McGregor writes: >>> hosting such an event. Hummm, I would have to >> upgrade >>> the bedroom ethernet ports to 100 >> Base-T...currently >>> the bedrooms (unlike the rest of the house) are >> only >>> 10 Base-T... >> Mmmm... What about wireless? > > Good point. Just over a week ago I got a ZyXEL HS-100W > wireless router, and a SMC wireless card... For > reasons that I will note in one of my next articles I > don't totally trust wireless, but yes that is very > much an option... I have my WiFi set up on the hostile side of my firewall, so that I have to use ssh or a vpn to access my network. The same vpn configuration gets me into my network from elsewhere. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 00:47:33 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:47:33 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <4436B868.5000903@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1e55af990604081747s32535d9n11934906ff697ea6@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Jason Spiro wrote: > Too bad NetHack isn't multiplayer... On 4/7/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Same goes for angband... Multiplayer Angband: http://mangband.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From akshay-c8nXU9rt5iNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 10:38:37 2006 From: akshay-c8nXU9rt5iNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Akshay Lamba) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 14:38:37 +0400 Subject: exim configuration Message-ID: <4438E42D.7020801@lambaweb.com> Hi All, Need some help in configuring a exim installation. I'm trying to configure exim such that all incoming and outgoing mails is to be copied to a specific email ID. For example, for a domain called www.domain.com hosted on a linux server, I need all outgoing and incoming mails to be copied to user-9IKiO1iGCm/QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org The closest thing to this that google threw up was, http://www.devco.net/archives/2006/03/24/saving_copies_of_all_email_using_exim.php Would appreciate if anyone could point out how I could go from the above link to enabling the system for my requirement. Best regards, Akshay -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 11:06:06 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 07:06:06 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144385545.19433.18.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1144385545.19433.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060409110606.GA11337@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 12:52:24AM -0400, John Van Ostrand wrote > Since most rootkits replace the same binaries the procedure could be as > simple as: > > chattr -ias /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/sbin/* /usr/bin/* /etc/* And what's to prevent a rootkit from issuing a chattr command to unprotect those files? > rpm -ivh --noscripts --force procps... psutils... findutils... etc. etc. *ASSUMING*, of course, that the RPM and psutils and findutils binaries, themselves, haven't been compromised by a rootkit, or that the rootkit hasn't patched the kernel to hide bad files/processes from these utils. > A quick ps check will show the nasty the processes. A find using the > date stamp of the worm executable will locate other files. A removal of > the worm exe will prevent it from starting even if you don't check for > startup code (inittab, cron, profile, etc.) This may work against amateur skript-kiddie level worms. A rootkit written for the Russian Mob is likely to be much more difficult to remove without re-imaging. "RRU" (Re-partition, Re-install, and Update) is still the best advice. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 12:49:48 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 08:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pho Hung & TLUG Message-ID: <20060409124948.62640.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, the April issue of Linux Format is out on newstands in Toronto (well, at least I saw it at the Indigo bookstore at Yonge & Eglinton), and there you will see my little write-up about GTALug on page 103. The article comes complete with a picture of Herb Richter with Sacha Chua and there is a picture of the Pho Hung restaurant. As noted in the article there is a group of us that do get together at Pho Hung (350 Spadina Ave.) at 6:00 PM before each TLUG meeting (which will be this Tuesday April 11). So anyone interested in having a bit of Vietnamese style food before the TLUG meeting feel free to join us... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 11:29:25 2006 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 07:29:25 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604080704m74867f52g26452bef23dd69ff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>; from sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Sat, Apr 08, 2006 at 10:04:38 -0400 References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> <1e55af990604080704m74867f52g26452bef23dd69ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060409112925.GA1953@localhost> On Sat Apr 08,2006 10:04:38 AM Sy Ali wrote: > I've got an hp 200lx palmtop which runs an 80186 (overclocked to > almost 15mhz!). The equipment that the company I work for makes uses an 80C186XL-25 which runs at 25Mhz without overclocking. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 13:19:02 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 16:19:02 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060409112925.GA1953@localhost> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> <1e55af990604080704m74867f52g26452bef23dd69ff@mail.gmail.com> <20060409112925.GA1953@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Scott Allen wrote: > On Sat Apr 08,2006 10:04:38 AM Sy Ali wrote: >> I've got an hp 200lx palmtop which runs an 80186 (overclocked to >> almost 15mhz!). > > The equipment that the company I work for makes uses an 80C186XL-25 which > runs at 25Mhz without overclocking. The 80C186XL-25 denotes 25MHz speed. I think that you knew this. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 14:07:17 2006 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:07:17 -0400 Subject: Firewall for my laptop Message-ID: <20060409140717.GA3918@localhost> I decided that it would be a good idea to internally firewall my laptop. At any given time, I may be connected to the Internet using ethernet, wireless or dialup-ppp. Ideally, I would like to have access to anything from the machine and no access to the machine from the outside. Since the requirements are simple, I decided to use iptables directly. IP forwarding is turned off. Here is what I came up with (the output is from iptables-save): # Generated by iptables-save v1.3.4 on Thu Apr 6 17:18:20 2006 *filter :INPUT DROP [827:74998] :FORWARD ACCEPT [0:0] :OUTPUT ACCEPT [131:10381] -A INPUT -i lo -j ACCEPT -A INPUT -m state --state RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT COMMIT # Completed on Thu Apr 6 17:18:20 2006 Assuming that the proper iptables state handling modules have been loaded for the protocols that I run, is this sufficient to accomplish my goal and are there any problems? Thanks, Scott A. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 9 20:49:35 2006 From: amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 16:49:35 -0400 Subject: Turning off blank screen on IBM laptop? Message-ID: Hi All, I'm using my linux IBM T21 laptop (running a libranet install of Debian) for presentations and have the problem that my screen goes blank after a few minutes of inactivity. So far, I have tried a couple of things to turn off the screen saver, but none have worked. These include: 1. xset -dpms xset s off 2. turning off the blank screen settings in the Genome windows manager under: Applications/destop preferences/advanced screen saver 3. Adding the following options into: /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 Option "BlankTime" "60" Option "StandbyTime" "70" Option "SuspendTime" "80" Option "OffTime" "90" So far none of these have worked for me. I am wondering if any one has any suggestions or experience with this? Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 01:44:52 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Turning off blank screen on IBM laptop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060410014452.22966.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Let me offer an obvious suggestion that is not on your list, check your laptop's BIOS. I ran into that as an issue with my Toshiba laptop ... took me longer than I would care to admit to find my screen saver issue was a BIOS setting... Colin McGregor --- Alex Maynard wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm using my linux IBM T21 laptop (running a > libranet install of Debian) > for presentations and have the problem that my > screen goes blank after > a few minutes of inactivity. > > So far, I have tried a couple of things to turn off > the screen saver, but > none have worked. These include: > > 1. xset -dpms > xset s off > > 2. turning off the blank screen settings in the > Genome windows > manager under: Applications/destop > preferences/advanced > screen saver > > 3. Adding the following options into: > /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 > > Option "BlankTime" "60" > Option "StandbyTime" "70" > Option "SuspendTime" "80" > Option "OffTime" "90" > > So far none of these have worked for me. I am > wondering if any one has any > suggestions or experience with this? > > Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 02:16:57 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 22:16:57 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once Message-ID: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> Having been on freenode for more hours a day than I care to admit for more days/months/years than I care to admit (pick one or all of the three), I am writing this to encourage anyone who reads this to use the #toronto-lug irc channel on freenode. So many lugs, smaller and larger, have thriving channels and there is no reason why gtalug shouldn't have one of the best with the 1000 or so members subscribed to this list, and the pool of expertise and just plain computers running 24/7. It's time that people got to introducing themselves to/on irc. Sure there are monthly meets and other various related user group meetings, but we should still make a good showing of things. There are people in the channel at this very moment, some of whom are there more than anyone else, who live in the UK and *not* in Toronto. Please, let's all try to make a better showing of things, perhaps foster an open atmosphere for new people to come and chat, etc. etc. IRC is a great thing, both for wasting time *and* for doing and learning linux related stuff. With talk of house/lan parties, a gtalugradio podcast of some sort, Linuxworld coming up, and all manner of other related stuff going on, surely we could at least have more than the current 12 users, perhaps with more than 1 line of text per day? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 02:19:35 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 22:19:35 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060409112925.GA1953@localhost> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20060408114654.GA1974@localhost> <1e55af990604080704m74867f52g26452bef23dd69ff@mail.gmail.com> <20060409112925.GA1953@localhost> Message-ID: <1e55af990604091919n4f999b7ao2610b704661d34ed@mail.gmail.com> On 4/9/06, Scott Allen wrote: > On Sat Apr 08,2006 10:04:38 AM Sy Ali wrote: > > I've got an hp 200lx palmtop which runs an 80186 (overclocked to > > almost 15mhz!). > > The equipment that the company I work for makes uses an 80C186XL-25 > which runs at 25Mhz without overclocking. (drifting further off topic) Awesome! I wish that palmtops didn't all go whimdoze-ce and that the small clamshell design stuck around. Palmtops are either hopeless (pens) or massive. I remember researching all kinds of little bitty things, and did see lots of little 386 devices and such. Nobody really packaged anything nice enough for me though. Yes, nowadays there are some slick mini-laptops that I ought to start saving up for.. assuming that Linux can work on them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 02:34:58 2006 From: amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 22:34:58 -0400 Subject: Turning off blank screen on IBM laptop? In-Reply-To: <20060410014452.22966.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410014452.22966.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Colin McGregor wrote: > Let me offer an obvious suggestion that is not on your > list, check your laptop's BIOS. I ran into that as an > issue with my Toshiba laptop ... took me longer than I > would care to admit to find my screen saver issue was > a BIOS setting... > That worked! Thank you! Alex > Colin McGregor > > --- Alex Maynard wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I'm using my linux IBM T21 laptop (running a > > libranet install of Debian) > > for presentations and have the problem that my > > screen goes blank after > > a few minutes of inactivity. > > > > So far, I have tried a couple of things to turn off > > the screen saver, but > > none have worked. These include: > > > > 1. xset -dpms > > xset s off > > > > 2. turning off the blank screen settings in the > > Genome windows > > manager under: Applications/destop > > preferences/advanced > > screen saver > > > > 3. Adding the following options into: > > /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 > > > > Option "BlankTime" "60" > > Option "StandbyTime" "70" > > Option "SuspendTime" "80" > > Option "OffTime" "90" > > > > So far none of these have worked for me. I am > > wondering if any one has any > > suggestions or experience with this? > > > > Alex > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 02:54:39 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 22:54:39 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <4439C019.3000806-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4439C8EF.7070604@lansystems.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > IRC is a great thing, both for wasting time *and* for doing and > learning linux related stuff. With talk of house/lan parties, a > gtalugradio podcast of some sort, Linuxworld coming up, and all manner > of other related stuff going on, surely we could at least have more > than the current 12 users, perhaps with more than 1 line of text per day? That's the actual issue. To attract there has to be substance. I made an effort to be in the channel for a week, and that was the best game of idle-rpg I've ever seen. It becomes a hassle to check in on the chan and see a dozen "zyx joined" "yxz left", and no discussion. -- Vince Hillier vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org System Administrator -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 03:54:26 2006 From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David C. Chipman) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:54:26 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <4439C019.3000806-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060409235426.3a7ae67a@david.chipman> Hiya Jamon, I'm in the chatroom right now, as are you. However, you don't seem to be replying to anybody (though nor is anybody else, so...). I hope we can talk some time, -David Chipman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 05:13:45 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 01:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407182106.99729.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | This was | followed by the 80186 chip (that for several reasons | tanked in the market), then came the 80286 chip. The 186 was a fine re-do of the 8086. It was a bit faster (shift-by-n took 1 cycle instead of n, multiply was much better). It had a few nice new instructions (push immediate was useful). Nothing too dramatic. As I remember it, there was only one reason that I know of for it to fail in the PC market. The IBM PC BIOS was entered by an INT instruction. This instruction simulates an interrupt. Actually, this is an evolution from the 8080 where (advanced) hardware interrupts actually jammed an INT instruction into the CPU. So it isn't just a simulation. An INT instruction has a one-byte immediate operand (i.e. a built in constant) to specify the interrupt vector to use. Certain interrupt numbers could be generated by built-into-the-microprocessor hardware (i.e. not optional). So a few numbers were reserved. In the 80186, these reserved interrupt numbers overlapped with some of the numbers chosen by IBM for BIOS calls. Oops. So: MSDOS could run on a '186, but programs that used (some?) BIOS calls could not be run on a '186. This seems like a tiny problem, but the market demanded that IBM PC binaries run on clones. This only became clear after a few products were released using the '186. Actually, some of the manufacturers wanted to be a little different and better, thinking that they could capture the market (think Victor, Olivetti, Tandy). It didn't work out that way. I own a UNIX machine that used an 8086. I sped it up by installing a NEC V30 CPU. This had the same pin-out as the 8086 but was essentially a 80186 (with a z80 or 8080 mode, I forget which). The only problem I had was that there was a bug in the kernel that caused it to flip in 8080 mode. I hacked the compiler to exploit some new instructions to gain a little code density. So the reason the '186 "failed" is because of a silly detail of compatibility. Since then, x86 CPUs lean over backwards to be backward compatible. To a fault. One example: the A20 gate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A20_line We LINUX users don't need this and it is just hystorical cruft to us. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 10:27:52 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:27:52 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407175929.GR4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407034338.GE6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407175929.GR4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060410102752.GA23460@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:59:29PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Somehow debian managed to make it run without java (I think it MIGHT > have needed java to build). That's been solved in the current version (2.0). It was older versions (1.4?) that had the Java dependancy. > Not sure why any system would not want pam anyhow. If I were running an internet-exposed server, or letting a bunch of people log in, I'd use either PAM or NSA SElinux. For a single-user desktop machine, it is overkill. Not only that, "everything you know is wrong" when it comes to configuring files. You end up using a different set of files. My introduction to PAM's idiosyncracies came early in my Gentoo days. I have a regular user account for day-to-day stuff, and a dedicated (not root) second account for certain admin stuff. I discovered that when the first user logs on, all character devices are chowned to that user, with permissions 600 until such time as it logs off. A user that logs on, before user1 logs off, is out of luck if it wants to play MP3s *EVEN IF USER1 NEVER TOUCHES AUDIO*, because /dev/sound/* and /dev/snd/* have all been chowned exclusively to the previous logon. To allow user2 to play MP3s, I had to log both users off, and log on user2 before logging on user1. I can do without that garbage, thank you. There is a place for PAM... as an optional security system in the same menu item of "make menuconfig" as where you find NSA SElinux. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 14:32:27 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:32:27 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060410102752.GA23460-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133240.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060405183735.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407034338.GE6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407175929.GR4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060410102752.GA23460@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060410143227.GW4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 06:27:52AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > That's been solved in the current version (2.0). It was older versions > (1.4?) that had the Java dependancy. Well I know openoffice 1.x on debian ran without java as well. So they did something to it. > If I were running an internet-exposed server, or letting a bunch of > people log in, I'd use either PAM or NSA SElinux. For a single-user > desktop machine, it is overkill. Not only that, "everything you know is > wrong" when it comes to configuring files. You end up using a different > set of files. > > My introduction to PAM's idiosyncracies came early in my Gentoo days. > I have a regular user account for day-to-day stuff, and a dedicated (not > root) second account for certain admin stuff. I discovered that when > the first user logs on, all character devices are chowned to that user, > with permissions 600 until such time as it logs off. A user that logs > on, before user1 logs off, is out of luck if it wants to play MP3s *EVEN > IF USER1 NEVER TOUCHES AUDIO*, because /dev/sound/* and /dev/snd/* have > all been chowned exclusively to the previous logon. To allow user2 to > play MP3s, I had to log both users off, and log on user2 before logging > on user1. I can do without that garbage, thank you. > > There is a place for PAM... as an optional security system in the same > menu item of "make menuconfig" as where you find NSA SElinux. None of that is PAM's fault. On debian, which uses pam, the audio devices are not messed with, when someone logs in. Instead they are owned by group 'audio' and any user in that group can use audio. Simple, clean, efficient, and it works well. I have seen redhat mess with permissions when you login, and I certainly never liked that setup myself. Just because you can make pam do something doesn't mean you must do it, and it doesn't mean pam is broken because you can do such things. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 15:41:12 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:41:12 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <20060409235426.3a7ae67a-lQMCrfjKGrJ3Ex1Y5TzZUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060409235426.3a7ae67a@david.chipman> Message-ID: <443A7C98.5090003@utoronto.ca> David C. Chipman wrote: > Hiya Jamon, > > I'm in the chatroom right now, as are you. However, you > don't seem to be replying to anybody (though nor is anybody else, > so...). I hope we can talk some time, Do not be dissuaded anyone, this message is to be disregarded in light of the fact that there was (and presently is more) talking in the channel. Also, I've come across this page listing some multiplayer rpg's for irc channels: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=271484 Any takers now? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andrew.emili-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 16:08:37 2006 From: andrew.emili-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrew Emili) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:08:37 -0400 Subject: JP: Linux System Adminstrator, UofT St. George (WITHDRAWN) Message-ID: <84e9f1ee0604100908w684c2014k5819139b76111cf6@mail.gmail.com> UPDATE: JP: Linux System Administrator, UofT St. George (Withdrawn) This position is withdrawn. Please do not apply. On 4/7/06, Fernando Duran wrote: > > --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > So I asked a law student that I know, what the > > deal is. Turns out we > > > are all correct. It's wrong to use a photo of the > > applicant for > > > discrimination. But it's okay to require a photo > > if it is needed for > > > some reason. See the example below. > > I think that's the idea and it's clearly expressed in > the Human Rights Comission documents; the employers > can ask for things if they are related to performing > the job, like a picture if you are applying for a > modeling job, or they can discriminate against people > in wheelchairs if the job requires lifting heavy > equipment (that's why in retail you have to confirm > you can lift 20 pounds or whatever) or driving a > forklift, but not if the job involves say, writing > code in a computer. > > > > > It's too bad that if you submit a photo and it is > > used for > > discriminatory purposes i.e. you don't get an > > interview lets say, you > > can't really prove that you were subject to > > discrimination. As much as > > the Charter is there, it shouldn't really apply. If > > anyone applying for > > a job submits a photo with their application because > > it is requested, > > then they are complicit in whatever violation of > > whatever rights they > > claim are being violated -- if you permit it you > > promote it. > > I disagree. We're going way off-topic here, but that's > like saying that people who sign abusive contracts (by > ignorance for example) are accomplices of people doing > something illegal in the first place. > > > > > Wrong or not, there isn't really anything to be done > > about it IMO, apart > > from not submitting a photo. > > Something can be done, in the same way that when you > see something you think is illegal; you can report it > to the proper place - the Human Rights Comission in > this case, and then they'll investigate the case. > > Fernando > > > > > Jamon > > -- > > > --------------------- > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 17:32:27 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Booth volunteers wanted... Message-ID: <20060410173227.2156.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> April 25th and 26th the Linux World Canada show will be on down at the Metro Convention Centre, and I am looking to staff (well, overstaff) the GTALug booth. At the moment I have a list of 10 people who are game to staff the GTALug booth, and I am looking for maybe 10 more people. What I want is a situation we have 2 people in the booth at all times, where volunteers will spend 1-2 hours working the booth each day and then can spend most of the time looking in on the other booths, exhibits, etc.. In other I want a situation were things are light on the booth duties, heavy on the learn from the other booths. Here is a list of the people who have currently volunteered for booth duty: - Cheah, Ming - Chillcott, Gordon - Cunningham, Leah - Cunningham, Seneca - Frey, Ivan - McGregor, Colin - Mills, Teddy - Richter, Herb - Sullivan, Drew - Weatherill, Amos Who else would like to join the list? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 17:54:57 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:54:57 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <4439C8EF.7070604-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <4439C8EF.7070604@lansystems.ca> Message-ID: On 4/9/06, Vince Hillier wrote: > That's the actual issue. To attract there has to be substance. I made > an effort to be in the channel for a week ... > With talk of house/lan parties, a gtalugradio > podcast of some sort, Linuxworld coming up, and all manner of other > related stuff going on, surely we could at least have more than the > current 12 users, perhaps with more than 1 line of text per day? So Alt-Tab over to your IRC client and start talking. :-) C'mon, it's not *that* hard to start a conversation: just ask a question or just say "hi all, what's up". Even if nobody notices your comment at first, sooner or later someone will, and you can probably set your IRC client to alert you when someone types anything in the channel. And if you're annoyed with keeping a full-scale IRC client open see http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/IRC_with_Gaim and follow the easy instructions. Don't forget to Alt-click on #toronto-lug in your buddy list and select "Auto-join". Cheers, Jason, who's taking a break from all IRC usage for now :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 19:18:14 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Canada Button List Message-ID: <20060410191814.96864.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am going to be making up some 2.25" round metal buttons with the GTALug logo for the Linux World Canada show. The plan is to have buttons like you would see for election campaigns (the "Vote for Jane Smith" type buttons), with the GTALug logo and the person's name superimposed on the badge. What I want to know is who will be at the show and wants one of these buttons. I am planning to make up badges for everyone who has volunteered for the booth, but beyond that I would like all the GTALug people who will be at the show, volunteering or not to have one of these badges. So, who wants a GTALug button? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 20:45:05 2006 From: geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:45:05 -0400 Subject: Linux World Canada Button List Message-ID: <20060410204505.HCBH16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> As you know I'm doing a presentation on one of the distributions, so I'd like a button. Geoff. Mitchell > > From: Colin McGregor > Date: 2006/04/10 Mon PM 03:18:14 EST > To: "tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org" > Subject: [TLUG]: Linux World Canada Button List > > I am going to be making up some 2.25" round metal > buttons with the GTALug logo for the Linux World > Canada show. The plan is to have buttons like you > would see for election campaigns (the "Vote for Jane > Smith" type buttons), with the GTALug logo and the > person's name superimposed on the badge. > > What I want to know is who will be at the show and > wants one of these buttons. I am planning to make up > badges for everyone who has volunteered for the booth, > but beyond that I would like all the GTALug people who > will be at the show, volunteering or not to have one > of these badges. So, who wants a GTALug button? > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 20:51:50 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Canada Button List In-Reply-To: <20060410204505.HCBH16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net-S6HM6mcWxYWbHxUYzX/Bp7Dks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410204505.HCBH16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20060410205150.89588.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > As you know I'm doing a presentation on one of the > distributions, so I'd like a button. Geoff. Mitchell I would be delighted to do this, do you want your name printed: - Geoff. Mitchell Or would you prefer some other variation such as: - G. Mitchell Thanks. Colin McGregor > > From: Colin McGregor > > Date: 2006/04/10 Mon PM 03:18:14 EST > > To: "tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org" > > Subject: [TLUG]: Linux World Canada Button List > > > > I am going to be making up some 2.25" round metal > > buttons with the GTALug logo for the Linux World > > Canada show. The plan is to have buttons like you > > would see for election campaigns (the "Vote for > Jane > > Smith" type buttons), with the GTALug logo and the > > person's name superimposed on the badge. > > > > What I want to know is who will be at the show and > > wants one of these buttons. I am planning to make > up > > badges for everyone who has volunteered for the > booth, > > but beyond that I would like all the GTALug people > who > > will be at the show, volunteering or not to have > one > > of these badges. So, who wants a GTALug button? > > > > Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 20:57:24 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:57:24 -0400 Subject: Linux World Canada Button List In-Reply-To: <20060410191814.96864.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410191814.96864.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604101357m7a4a680ay3f6ee883477863d5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Colin McGregor wrote: > So, who wants a GTALug button? WoOt! I'll take one. =) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 21:05:57 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:05:57 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <20060407181756.GU4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <20060407181756.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604101405vb684985r740babf1dbe7be6c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > What qualifies people as 'younger'? Their state of mind? =) I was thinking at least drinking age since that's a fairly popular thing to do at a house party. I have a few more thoughts on the idea, but I'm waiting for feedback from the other AVP project heads... 2 of whom are experienced in setting up decent sized LAN parties and 1 of which does so on a fairly regular basis for some Windoze folks. For context, the AVP project is not a foss project. AVP is a group of 4 friends, the project is to create projects - some may be Open Source, some not. I expect to be speaking next month on our first official project which is f/oss. The question about the house/lan party was only meant to be exploratory - we've been considering the idea for several months but weren't sure what to expect from the community. Since there's some interest, we'll investigate further. If we do it though, expect loud (but good) music. I'll even try to get o0_avid_0o to spin some Jono Bacon. As in his re-make of ESR's Free Software Song. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 21:09:53 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:09:53 -0400 Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604101405vb684985r740babf1dbe7be6c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <20060407181756.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0604101405vb684985r740babf1dbe7be6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604101409y1fb2de49wd94ac7a5885515ca@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/7/06, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > If we do it though, expect loud (but good) music. I'll even try to > get o0_avid_0o to spin some Jono Bacon. As in his re-make of ESR's > Free Software Song. ;-) Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson. ESR is not RMS! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 17:15:42 2006 From: geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (GG.m) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:15:42 +0000 Subject: Linux World Canada Button List In-Reply-To: <20060410205150.89588.qmail-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410205150.89588.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443A92BE.7090006@sympatico.ca> Geoff.Mitchell replied: Geoff. Mitchell would be fine. Colin McGregor wrote: > --- geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> As you know I'm doing a presentation on one of the >> distributions, so I'd like a button. Geoff. Mitchell >> > > I would be delighted to do this, do you want your name > printed: > > - Geoff. Mitchell > > Or would you prefer some other variation such as: > > - G. Mitchell > > Thanks. > > Colin McGregor > > >>> From: Colin McGregor >>> Date: 2006/04/10 Mon PM 03:18:14 EST >>> To: "tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org" >>> Subject: [TLUG]: Linux World Canada Button List >>> >>> I am going to be making up some 2.25" round metal >>> buttons with the GTALug logo for the Linux World >>> Canada show. The plan is to have buttons like you >>> would see for election campaigns (the "Vote for >>> >> Jane >> >>> Smith" type buttons), with the GTALug logo and the >>> person's name superimposed on the badge. >>> >>> What I want to know is who will be at the show and >>> wants one of these buttons. I am planning to make >>> >> up >> >>> badges for everyone who has volunteered for the >>> >> booth, >> >>> but beyond that I would like all the GTALug people >>> >> who >> >>> will be at the show, volunteering or not to have >>> >> one >> >>> of these badges. So, who wants a GTALug button? >>> >>> Colin McGregor >>> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 17:09:43 2006 From: geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (g4G60m_mitch) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:09:43 +0000 Subject: Linux World Canada Button List In-Reply-To: <20060410205150.89588.qmail-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410204505.HCBH16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> <20060410205150.89588.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Geoff. Mitchell wrote: Geoff. Mitchell would be fine, thanks. Colin McGregor wrote: > --- geofm-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: >> As you know I'm doing a presentation on one of the >> distributions, so I'd like a button. Geoff. Mitchell > > I would be delighted to do this, do you want your name > printed: > > - Geoff. Mitchell > > Or would you prefer some other variation such as: > > - G. Mitchell > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 21:21:04 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:21:04 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca Message-ID: <200604101721.04814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Hello all. WestTLUG now has a place to call their own. We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future meetings, now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take place on the first Tuesday of the month. The mailing list will be fully operational within a few days time. All other parts of the site are now operational. We have a marketplace area for members to sell their used hardware, and give away free items as well. Feel free to have a look around, and we are open to suggestions on improving the site. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 21:21:09 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For the young 'uns... In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604101409y1fb2de49wd94ac7a5885515ca-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604070432n6601ce90yd95ed22e369e3e7b@mail.gmail.com> <20060407181756.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0604101405vb684985r740babf1dbe7be6c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604101409y1fb2de49wd94ac7a5885515ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51016.207.188.65.194.1144704069.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson. ESR is not RMS! > I should hope not. ESR: Equivalent Series Resistance (in capacitors) RMS: Root Mean Square (as in voltage, effective value) Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 416-465-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 21:37:14 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:37:14 +0300 (IDT) Subject: about patents Message-ID: An article well worth reading imho: http://www.paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 22:22:00 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:22:00 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <200604101721.04814.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200604101721.04814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604101522q2ca37fc8o356646c216170e1a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Jason Shein wrote: > We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future meetings, > now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take place on the > first Tuesday of the month. Ug. Might be too tired, but how does one add a post to the forums? If your membership/guests aren't TLUG regulars then I'd love to re-present what I'm planning for TLUG next month. (If they are, well at least it's good practice!) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 22:54:42 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:54:42 -0400 Subject: Doubleplusungood Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604101554u1b483907sde74f41a06de5c1b@mail.gmail.com> EFF recently launched a lawsuit against AT&T. For those unaware of the suit, it seems that AT&T and the NSA teamed up to 'tap the internet. Here's Mark Klein's account on Wired.com http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70621-0.html If anyone has further info, please post details or email me off-list. Thanks! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 22:57:32 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:57:32 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604101522q2ca37fc8o356646c216170e1a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <200604101721.04814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <99a6c38f0604101522q2ca37fc8o356646c216170e1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604101857.33305.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Monday 10 April 2006 18:22, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/10/06, Jason Shein wrote: > > We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future > > meetings, now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take > > place on the first Tuesday of the month. > > Ug. Might be too tired, but how does one add a post to the forums? Logged in members only may post. Enter the area you would like to post to, and the link appears at the top left of the content on that page. "::post new topic::" > If your membership/guests aren't TLUG regulars then I'd love to > re-present what I'm planning for TLUG next month. (If they are, well > at least it's good practice!) What topic would that be? I would be glad to forward that offer to the group. We currently have one individual making a small ( 15 - 30 min ) presentation, but other than that we are open. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 23:06:31 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:06:31 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443AE4F7.9030105@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The 186 was a fine re-do of the 8086. It was a bit faster (shift-by-n > took 1 cycle instead of n, multiply was much better). It had a few > nice new instructions (push immediate was useful). Nothing too > dramatic. No pull immediate? ;-) > I own a UNIX machine that used an 8086. I sped it up by installing a > NEC V30 CPU. This had the same pin-out as the 8086 but was > essentially a 80186 (with a z80 or 8080 mode, I forget which). I replaced the 8088, in my XT clone, with a V20. It included an 8080 mode and could run CP/M-80. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 00:01:13 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:01:13 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144372911.17053.9.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> John Van Ostrand wrote: >>Fraser Campbell wrote: >> >>>It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would highly >>>recommend reimage/reinstall as well. > > For a novice user, perhaps. RPM based systems can be fixed quite easily. > Altered files can be found with "rpm -Va" and inspected. The toughest > one I had was when infected files like 'ls' and 'ps' would re-infect > when run. Installing RPMs that used infected commands in pre or post > install scripts would re-infect. Even then the --noscripts option worked > great. A full review would mean inspecting every single init script and config file for differences from original and inspecting every single file not owned by RPM - "rpm -Va" won't tell you that a modified /etc/sysconfig/network file is actually starting some spambot. Every single user's files should be suspect as well - you wouldn't want a user's .bashrc/.profile/.cshrc/.??? reinstalling a rootkit on you. chkrootkit probably helps though I haven't tried it on hacked systems before since I was always able to find the hacks via hints in /proc - or maybe I just thought that I always found the hacks. A hacked system might be fixable but I stick by opinion that it's both easier and better to reinstall in many cases no matter how much you know. > If you're worried about root kits becoming smart enough to mangle the > RPM database, then archive and sign it. Or use tripwire look alikes. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 00:51:03 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:51:03 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <443AF1C9.8020104-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 20:01 -0400, Fraser Campbell wrote: > John Van Ostrand wrote: > > >>Fraser Campbell wrote: > >> > >>>It is quite a reasonable approach. On a hacked Linux box I would highly > >>>recommend reimage/reinstall as well. > > > > For a novice user, perhaps. RPM based systems can be fixed quite easily. > > Altered files can be found with "rpm -Va" and inspected. The toughest > > one I had was when infected files like 'ls' and 'ps' would re-infect > > when run. Installing RPMs that used infected commands in pre or post > > install scripts would re-infect. Even then the --noscripts option worked > > great. > > A full review would mean inspecting every single init script and config > file for differences from original and inspecting every single file not > owned by RPM - "rpm -Va" won't tell you that a modified > /etc/sysconfig/network file is actually starting some spambot. rpm -Va will tell you that it was modified, it's up to you to check the file. A quick reboot and a clean rpm -Va followed by a ps, netstat, etc will ensure that you've caught everything. > Every single user's files should be suspect as well - you wouldn't want a > user's .bashrc/.profile/.cshrc/.??? reinstalling a rootkit on you. How would a re-install help unless you intend to replace, restore or delete those files? If your going to do that why not on a "fixed" system then too? > chkrootkit probably helps though I haven't tried it on hacked systems > before since I was always able to find the hacks via hints in /proc - or > maybe I just thought that I always found the hacks. Me too. > A hacked system might be fixable but I stick by opinion that it's both > easier and better to reinstall in many cases no matter how much you know. It really depends on the system and the administrator. A re-install of a complex system that would take days to reconfigure may be more of a business hit than the hour to fix it. If it's just a web server then a re-install could work, as long as you can restore the application data fast enough. Still you may end up restoring hacked files. > > If you're worried about root kits becoming smart enough to mangle the > > RPM database, then archive and sign it. > > Or use tripwire look alikes. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 01:52:56 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:52:56 -0700 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144716664.15143.17.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 4/10/06, John Van Ostrand wrote: > It really depends on the system and the administrator. A re-install of a > complex system that would take days to reconfigure may be more of a > business hit than the hour to fix it. The only reason for it to be "acceptable" to get stuck with this is if you have a totally unmaintainable system that is actually impossible to reinstall. If we had such a problem with a database server, you can bet it'll be *toast*, down to reimaging from scratch. It's not that hard. And what you really want with your systems is the ability to rebuild from scratch, *easily*. See ; the folks in that organization find it unacceptable if they can't rebuild a server *from scratch* in 20 minutes. If anything, Linux should be easier than the "traditional Unixes" to do this with. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 02:11:39 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:11:39 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144716664.15143.17.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <443B105B.6070602@georgetown.wehave.net> John Van Ostrand wrote: >>A full review would mean inspecting every single init script and config >>file for differences from original and inspecting every single file not >>owned by RPM - "rpm -Va" won't tell you that a modified >>/etc/sysconfig/network file is actually starting some spambot. > > > rpm -Va will tell you that it was modified, it's up to you to check the > file. > > A quick reboot and a clean rpm -Va followed by a ps, netstat, etc will > ensure that you've caught everything. And a: for fs in /all /file /systems; do find $fs -exec rpm -qf '{}' \; | grep 'not owned' done Verify that all the suspect files not belonging to RPMs are ok. All this from a rescue system of course since no utility (find, ps, netstat) can be trusted on the hacked system. >>Every single user's files should be suspect as well - you wouldn't want a >>user's .bashrc/.profile/.cshrc/.??? reinstalling a rootkit on you. > > How would a re-install help unless you intend to replace, restore or > delete those files? If your going to do that why not on a "fixed" system > then too? It has to be done on the fixed system as well. Every shortcut introduces a little more risk, on some systems such stringent checking would be hugely time consuming of course. >>A hacked system might be fixable but I stick by opinion that it's both >>easier and better to reinstall in many cases no matter how much you know. > > It really depends on the system and the administrator. A re-install of a > complex system that would take days to reconfigure may be more of a > business hit than the hour to fix it. > > If it's just a web server then a re-install could work, as long as you > can restore the application data fast enough. Local accounts vs not, local state vs not would factor in the decision. The risk profile of a system might force reinstall or file-by-file checks no matter what the business hit and pain. One would hope that there's a good DR plan covering how to rebuild the server ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfriedt-u6hQ6WWl8Q3d1t4wvoaeXtBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 10 22:13:53 2006 From: cfriedt-u6hQ6WWl8Q3d1t4wvoaeXtBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Christopher Friedt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:13:53 +0000 Subject: Booth volunteers wanted... In-Reply-To: <20060410173227.2156.qmail-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410173227.2156.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443AD8A1.6030905@visible-assets.com> I can do it too ;-) I live right downtown so commuting for me is no problem either. ~/Chris Colin McGregor wrote: > April 25th and 26th the Linux World Canada show will > be on down at the Metro Convention Centre, and I am > looking to staff (well, overstaff) the GTALug booth. > > At the moment I have a list of 10 people who are game > to staff the GTALug booth, and I am looking for maybe > 10 more people. What I want is a situation we have 2 > people in the booth at all times, where volunteers > will spend 1-2 hours working the booth each day and > then can spend most of the time looking in on the > other booths, exhibits, etc.. In other I want a > situation were things are light on the booth duties, > heavy on the learn from the other booths. Here is a > list of the people who have currently volunteered for > booth duty: > > - Cheah, Ming > - Chillcott, Gordon > - Cunningham, Leah > - Cunningham, Seneca > - Frey, Ivan > - McGregor, Colin > - Mills, Teddy > - Richter, Herb > - Sullivan, Drew > - Weatherill, Amos > > Who else would like to join the list? > > Colin McGregor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 02:34:34 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:34:34 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1144722875.15143.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 18:52 -0700, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/10/06, John Van Ostrand wrote: > > It really depends on the system and the administrator. A re-install of a > > complex system that would take days to reconfigure may be more of a > > business hit than the hour to fix it. > > The only reason for it to be "acceptable" to get stuck with this is if > you have a totally unmaintainable system that is actually impossible > to reinstall. Not impossible, just time consuming. > If we had such a problem with a database server, you can bet it'll be > *toast*, down to reimaging from scratch. It's not that hard. But if an image doesn't exist? > And what you really want with your systems is the ability to rebuild > from scratch, *easily*. See ; the > folks in that organization find it unacceptable if they can't rebuild > a server *from scratch* in 20 minutes. I can see how, in a very locked down environment, that one could recover from an image in 20 minutes but a re-install would take far longer than that. It would be nice if all servers could be restored in 20 minutes. In most cases it's just not possible. Even then, a data restore could take hours beyond the imaging time. I've dealt with customers that don't have a backup or an image. To re-install would take a full-backup, re-install, re-configure, restore, then the ensuing issues. On simple servers with lots of data this can take many hours. On complex servers with previous admins long gone, and poor documentation its a days-long event. > If anything, Linux should be easier than the "traditional Unixes" to > do this with. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 03:11:33 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:11:33 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <20060405133011.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060407023204.GA6886@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060411031133.GA24627@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 10:39:00AM -0400, Paul Osman wrote > There's a very simple solution to that problem: don't install > applications that depend on these things. OK, I'll admit I want to have my cake and eat it too. I would much rather prefer to have a choice from a lot of apps and use fewer separate re-implimentations of perl. For those of you that need to run a resource-limited older desktop or laptop, have a look at http://www.puppylinux.com -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 03:12:30 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:12:30 -0700 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144722875.15143.34.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1144722875.15143.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 4/10/06, John Van Ostrand wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 18:52 -0700, Christopher Browne wrote: > > On 4/10/06, John Van Ostrand wrote: > > > It really depends on the system and the administrator. A re-install of a > > > complex system that would take days to reconfigure may be more of a > > > business hit than the hour to fix it. > > > > The only reason for it to be "acceptable" to get stuck with this is if > > you have a totally unmaintainable system that is actually impossible > > to reinstall. > > Not impossible, just time consuming. It can be effectively impossible if the work cannot be accomplished within acceptable time constraints. Suppose it would require a couple weeks of redevelopment effort to get a bunch of CGIs modified to run on more modern hardware. > > If we had such a problem with a database server, you can bet it'll be > > *toast*, down to reimaging from scratch. It's not that hard. > > But if an image doesn't exist? For Linux, an image is only a CD-ROM away. For our AIX servers, this is the sort of thing we keep images for... > > And what you really want with your systems is the ability to rebuild > > from scratch, *easily*. See ; the > > folks in that organization find it unacceptable if they can't rebuild > > a server *from scratch* in 20 minutes. > > I can see how, in a very locked down environment, that one could recover > from an image in 20 minutes but a re-install would take far longer than > that. > > It would be nice if all servers could be restored in 20 minutes. In most > cases it's just not possible. Even then, a data restore could take hours > beyond the imaging time. I've dealt with customers that don't have a > backup or an image. To re-install would take a full-backup, re-install, > re-configure, restore, then the ensuing issues. On simple servers with > lots of data this can take many hours. On complex servers with previous > admins long gone, and poor documentation its a days-long event. Sheer disaster, particularly in the case where the server was compromised, and you can NOT trust it anymore. If you actually need high availability... - Inadequate procedures means you don't got it. - Inadequate documentation means you don't got it. - Inability to reimage quickly means you don't got it. > > If anything, Linux should be easier than the "traditional Unixes" to > > do this with. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 03:54:36 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:54:36 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <20060411035436.GB24627@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 03:14:02PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote > http://funroll-loops.org/ > http://funroll-loops.org/gentoo.jpg There are some people who should not be running any version of linux. Gentoo seems to get its fair share. Gentoo is more powerful because it gives the user more control. E.g. a car with an automatic transmission, you can floor the gas pedal, and it'll shift gears for you. On a manual transmission car... - if you know what you're doing, you can run circles around an auto- transmission vehicle with the same engine. How many auto-transmission cars win races? - if you don't know what you're doing, you can blow up the engine The idiots who insist on "-O9" and "MAKEOPTS=-j16" and stupid unrolling are like leadfooted drivers in manual transmission cars, who push the pedal to the floor and ignore the red line. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 03:55:07 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:55:07 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060407173457.GP4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173457.GP4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060411035507.GC24627@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:34:57PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > Yeah, that may also make you feel it runs faster, it's like > > placebo, you know ;) > > After waiting for the compile, anything will feel fast. :) My personal experience... - an old "breakout-style" video game called "Xboing" - ran OK on my old 1999 Dell (450 mhz PIII, 128 megs ram) under Debian - speed level 1 was a bit slow, and I could handle up to speed level 3 - under Gentoo, with optimizations, Xboing runs so fast that you have to hack the source and insert a massive delay loop, in order to make it playable at the "slowest" speed. The worst part is that on older machines, which benefit the most from using every last optimization, compiling takes the longest. Gentoo no longer uses a "Stage 1" or "stage 2" install. Every install is what used to be known as "stage 3". You can always run things overnight. A worst-case scenario, a 400 mhz PII, with 128 megs of ram, took approx 8 hours to get from a basic text-console-only install to installing Gimp. That includes X (and supporting libraries, and TWM, and Gimp (and supporting libraries). -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 04:06:15 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:06:15 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <200604101857.33305.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604101522q2ca37fc8o356646c216170e1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443AF2F7.32536.7A1A69F@pking123.sympatico.ca> Congratrs on the site. Who hosts it? Paul King On 10 Apr 2006 at 18:57, Jason Shein spaketh these wourdes: > On Monday 10 April 2006 18:22, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On 4/10/06, Jason Shein wrote: > > > We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future > > > meetings, now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take > > > place on the first Tuesday of the month. > > > > Ug. Might be too tired, but how does one add a post to the forums? > > Logged in members only may post. Enter the area you would like to post to, > and the link appears at the top left of the content on that page. > "::post new topic::" > > > If your membership/guests aren't TLUG regulars then I'd love to > > re-present what I'm planning for TLUG next month. (If they are, well > > at least it's good practice!) > > What topic would that be? I would be glad to forward that offer to the group. > We currently have one individual making a small ( 15 - 30 min ) presentation, > but other than that we are open. > > -- > Jason Shein > Director of Networking, Operations and Systems > Detached Networks > jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org > ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice > ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile > http://www.detachednetworks.ca > On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 > > Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > __________ NOD32 1.1481 (20060410) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 05:01:11 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:01:11 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <443AF2F7.32536.7A1A69F-uuyTbqJmvjjRzhN20pBLLPQsgn7MoEWs@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604101522q2ca37fc8o356646c216170e1a@mail.gmail.com> <443AF2F7.32536.7A1A69F@pking123.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200604110101.11587.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Tuesday 11 April 2006 00:06, Paul King wrote: > Congratrs on the site. Who hosts it? > > Paul King Thanks. I host it from Detached Networks. My little contribution. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 05:05:13 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:05:13 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <443AE4F7.9030105-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407182106.99729.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <443AE4F7.9030105@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, James Knott wrote: > No pull immediate? ;-) pop immediate (as in, balloon) ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 05:10:05 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:10:05 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <4439C019.3000806-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> This isn't a rant against IRC, so please don't take it personally, but an email list has some major advantages over IRC. IRC is OK for live communication, but not everybody can be on at the same time, plus I'm not exactly a fast typist. Over the years, I've graduated from being a hunt-n-peck 2-finger typist, to a 4-finger (plus thumbs for spacebar) typist. And you don't really want to even think about "texting" with me on a cellphone. Let's just say "I don't get it" when it comes to the "texting" obsession. I recently joined the 21st century, and got the basic Virgin Mobile "minute-2-minute" plan. At $3.75+GST per month (if you use it infrequently), it can't be beat for emergency use. And you get to carry over unused credits if you top up on time (or even better, go with auto-top-up). - Email enables TIVO-like "timeshifting". This gives me time to compose a readable reply. This not only helps the slow typists, but allows one to do offline research ("googling") before replying to questions. - Email exchanges can be longer and more much more detailed than a series of one-liners. Could you even begin to write your plea in your original message on IRC? And of course, you can attach files. - Email exchanges can be in parallel, whereas IRC is serial, i.e. only one person typing at a time IRC has its place, and where immediacy is required it's nice, but one-size-does-not-fit-all. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:15:03 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:15:03 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <20060411051005.GD24627-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <443BB9E7.90400@utoronto.ca> Walter Dnes wrote: > This isn't a rant against IRC, so please don't take it personally, but > an email list has some major advantages over IRC. IRC is OK for live > communication, but not everybody can be on at the same time, plus I'm > not exactly a fast typist. Over the years, I've graduated from being a > hunt-n-peck 2-finger typist, to a 4-finger (plus thumbs for spacebar) > typist. And you don't really want to even think about "texting" with me > on a cellphone. Let's just say "I don't get it" when it comes to the > "texting" obsession. I recently joined the 21st century, and got the > basic Virgin Mobile "minute-2-minute" plan. At $3.75+GST per month (if > you use it infrequently), it can't be beat for emergency use. And you > get to carry over unused credits if you top up on time (or even better, > go with auto-top-up). I agree, and most wholeheartedly at that. Texting: perhaps airtime is cheap enough here that we don't need it and can just talk on a cellphone when necessary? In other places/plans however, texting makes simple economic sense for quick messages. > - Email enables TIVO-like "timeshifting". This gives me time to > compose a readable reply. This not only helps the slow typists, but > allows one to do offline research ("googling") before replying to > questions. I've had many an exchange of ideas and help that consisted entirely of links posted to a channel. Email cannot compare with something like that for speed and effectiveness. > - Email exchanges can be longer and more much more detailed than a > series of one-liners. Could you even begin to write your plea in > your original message on IRC? And of course, you can attach files. Not at all. I could indeed try, but would likely be yelled at (or kicked by freenode) for spamming the channel. On the other hand, most irc clients have a built in file transfer mechanism and many high volume channels use pastebins for linking to large chunks of text. One thing that I still have trouble with in irc/im is lack of punctuation and grammar. While I'm not perfect in my own usage by any means, I nevertheless find it rather disconcerting -- I agree with you (I think) on that point. > - Email exchanges can be in parallel, whereas IRC is serial, i.e. only > one person typing at a time I've yet to come across a threaded irc client (impossible I'd say). However, typing someone's name is a simply natter of the first letter or two, and then tab completion kicks in. If your name appears in the channel, you are notified by your client, and can easily change the colour of any line containing your name. This system allows multiple conversations at once without you loosing track of who said what to whom. Audio notifications too. > IRC has its place, and where immediacy is required it's nice, but > one-size-does-not-fit-all. Agreed. There is a time and a place for both email and IRC. However, it seems like IRC's place is rather lacking in presence at the moment -- that's essentially my entire point. Thanks for your response though; reasons are always useful things to consider. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:15:18 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:15:18 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <20060411051005.GD24627-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060411141518.GX4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 01:10:05AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > This isn't a rant against IRC, so please don't take it personally, but > an email list has some major advantages over IRC. IRC is OK for live > communication, but not everybody can be on at the same time, plus I'm > not exactly a fast typist. Over the years, I've graduated from being a > hunt-n-peck 2-finger typist, to a 4-finger (plus thumbs for spacebar) > typist. And you don't really want to even think about "texting" with me > on a cellphone. Let's just say "I don't get it" when it comes to the > "texting" obsession. I recently joined the 21st century, and got the > basic Virgin Mobile "minute-2-minute" plan. At $3.75+GST per month (if > you use it infrequently), it can't be beat for emergency use. And you > get to carry over unused credits if you top up on time (or even better, > go with auto-top-up). Sounds like a nifty plan. As for typing, I took a typing course in high school. I learned some stuff, although I do in fact not type "by the rules". I think I have a modified way of doing it that works better for programming (and with my hand size/finger length I can do things like ctrl+letter/number one handed. Even alt+functionkey is normally not hard with one hand and seems pretty natural.) > - Email enables TIVO-like "timeshifting". This gives me time to > compose a readable reply. This not only helps the slow typists, but > allows one to do offline research ("googling") before replying to > questions. I use google while on irc. irc does lack a spell checker, although I almost never remember to spell check my email either. > - Email exchanges can be longer and more much more detailed than a > series of one-liners. Could you even begin to write your plea in > your original message on IRC? And of course, you can attach files. I can write lots of details in one irc message. And there is always places like #flood or a pastebin for showing people a file. And dcc if you want to transfer a file although that sometimes doesn't work due to people using cheap crappy routers. :) > - Email exchanges can be in parallel, whereas IRC is serial, i.e. only > one person typing at a time No, irc is often used parallel. Lots of conversations take place at the same time. > IRC has its place, and where immediacy is required it's nice, but > one-size-does-not-fit-all. That is certainly true. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:23:36 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:23:36 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060411035436.GB24627-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060411035436.GB24627@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060411142336.GY4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 11:54:36PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > There are some people who should not be running any version of linux. > Gentoo seems to get its fair share. Gentoo is more powerful because it > gives the user more control. E.g. a car with an automatic transmission, > you can floor the gas pedal, and it'll shift gears for you. On a manual > transmission car... > > - if you know what you're doing, you can run circles around an auto- > transmission vehicle with the same engine. How many auto-transmission > cars win races? That depends how you define "auto-transmission". Some of the sequential gearboxes used on race cars need no clutch to change gears, just hitting buttons, and even that could be automated (it is on many cars that use sequential gearboxes, at least as an option, ie the Smart has such an option). > - if you don't know what you're doing, you can blow up the engine Unless the engineers were smart enough to put a governor on it. I know my car has one. And that is not just because it's a manual transmission. Of course I never have any reason to go past 2/3 of the way to red line, since there just isn't much power left past that point. > The idiots who insist on "-O9" and "MAKEOPTS=-j16" and stupid unrolling > are like leadfooted drivers in manual transmission cars, who push the > pedal to the floor and ignore the red line. They certainly must like broken in subtle odd ways software. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:26:01 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:26:01 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060411035507.GC24627-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173457.GP4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060411035507.GC24627@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060411142601.GZ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 11:55:07PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > My personal experience... > > - an old "breakout-style" video game called "Xboing" > > - ran OK on my old 1999 Dell (450 mhz PIII, 128 megs ram) under Debian > > - speed level 1 was a bit slow, and I could handle up to speed level 3 > > - under Gentoo, with optimizations, Xboing runs so fast that you have > to hack the source and insert a massive delay loop, in order to make > it playable at the "slowest" speed. > > The worst part is that on older machines, which benefit the most from > using every last optimization, compiling takes the longest. Gentoo no > longer uses a "Stage 1" or "stage 2" install. Every install is what > used to be known as "stage 3". You can always run things overnight. A > worst-case scenario, a 400 mhz PII, with 128 megs of ram, took approx 8 > hours to get from a basic text-console-only install to installing Gimp. > That includes X (and supporting libraries, and TWM, and Gimp (and > supporting libraries). Makes me wonder if the source code was the same version, and whether you may have configured debian to use vesa and gentoo to use native x drivers for the system. Both are much more plausible than optimizations. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:27:56 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:27:56 -0400 Subject: Business case for switching to Linux In-Reply-To: <1144716664.15143.17.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4432F80F.6000204@rogers.com> <4433150D.3080104@georgetown.wehave.net> <44331598.6080206@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144372911.17053.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <443AF1C9.8020104@georgetown.wehave.net> <1144716664.15143.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060411142756.GA4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 08:51:03PM -0400, John Van Ostrand wrote: > rpm -Va will tell you that it was modified, it's up to you to check the > file. > > A quick reboot and a clean rpm -Va followed by a ps, netstat, etc will > ensure that you've caught everything. Assuming you can trust the rpm binary, the rpm database, anything else on the system. Once compromised, you can't trust ANYTHING on the system. Boot from some other media, running only tools from that media, and trust nothing from the original install, including the data without verifying it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 14:37:54 2006 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:37:54 -0400 Subject: PegaSoft - April 18 - A System for Managing Game Entities Message-ID: <1144766274.1506.9.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> The next PegaSoft meeting is Tuesday, April 18, 2006 at 7:00 pm at the Bedford Road Swiss Chalet near the St. George subway station. RSVP Mel Wilson if you plan to attend (http://www.pegasoft.ca/people.html). Attendance is free. The presentation topic will be the article "A System for Managing Game Entities" by Matthew Harmon from the book "Game Programming Gems IV". The organization and inter-communication of cooperating AI agents in a computer game setting. More information at http://www.pegasoft.ca/events.html -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 15:27:16 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:27:16 -0400 Subject: The new WestTLUG Mailing List is active. Message-ID: <200604111127.16556.jason@detachednetworks.ca> If anyone is interested, you can go here to subscribe. http://westtlug.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=11 -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 15:36:18 2006 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:36:18 -0400 Subject: chording keyboards (wasLets all use the IRC channel for once) In-Reply-To: <20060411141518.GX4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411141518.GX4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Lennart Sorensen wrote: > As for typing, I took a typing course in high school. I learned some > stuff, although I do in fact not type "by the rules". I think I have a > modified way of doing it that works better for programming (and with my > hand size/finger length I can do things like ctrl+letter/number one > handed. Even alt+functionkey is normally not hard with one hand and > seems pretty natural.) I do these "chords" too, and it probably is natural. Whenever I do it, I think "against the rules" because I took typing in high school too. I think you can buy chording keyboards, but they're too expensive because they're not mass market. I've also tried a handykey (that's what I think it's called). It's a combined air-mouse and chording keyboard. You kind of wave your hand in the air, and that motion moves the cursor. I found it too uncomfortable. The real goal was to alleviate discomfort in my right hand from "mousing". My solution was to learn keyboard shortcuts, and struggle for a month or so to learn to "mouse" with my left hand. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 16:04:15 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:04:15 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <443BB9E7.90400-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <443BB9E7.90400@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <443BD37F.1000602@telly.org> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Walter Dnes wrote: > >> - Email enables TIVO-like "timeshifting". This gives me time to >> compose a readable reply. This not only helps the slow typists, but >> allows one to do offline research ("googling") before replying to >> questions. > > > I've had many an exchange of ideas and help that consisted entirely of > links posted to a channel. Email cannot compare with something like > that for speed and effectiveness. Speed? Sure, because it's in real time. Effectiveness? Certainly not. IRC is horrible for lengthy messages, especially when you want to do any kind of formatting such as using point form or quotations or code fragments. If you break up a message into usable chunks it's likely to get split by other peoples' conversation. Compounding the problem is when that other conversation is totally unrelated. And as you point people to hacks such as pastebins, you already diminish the supposed benefits of IRC. If your question can be answered by a one-line answer, and the person with the right answer is there in the 'room', then IRC is good. Often waiting for the experts to see and answer, in a format and time convenient to them, provides a more effective -- if not faster -- response to complex questions and issues. You can't follow IRC easily by thread as you can in email. And, unlike using a list server such as mailman, archiving is haphazard, redundant, and lacks the facility of email to create mailboxes and file stuff for you automatically using tools like procmail. Internet Relay Chat is good for just that -- Chat. It is a reasonable tool for specific scheduled online meetings; the Open Source Weekend folks use it to great advantage in this way. It's also good for social interaction because it provides immediate gratification. But IRC doesn't scale -- having more than a dozen people talking at the same time, especially in multiple unrelated conversations, is almost unreadable. > One thing that I still have trouble with in irc/im is lack of > punctuation and grammar. While I'm not perfect in my own usage by any > means, I nevertheless find it rather disconcerting -- I agree with you > (I think) on that point. I find that use of smilies is an imperative in IRC/IM, as written sarcasm etc has less time to be digested or even recognized. The lack of vocal inflection is even more of an issue when the conversation is so immediate. > If your name appears in the channel, you are notified by your client, > and can easily change the colour of any line containing your name. > This system allows multiple conversations at once without you loosing > track of who said what to whom. Audio notifications too. Being able to traverse an thread in isolation, whether current or archived, is a strength of email that IRC can't begin to approach. Then there's the issue of aliases. Most IRC users don't even offer their real names for "info" requests, so you don't know who you're talking to (and -- worse -- can't match IRC names to mailing-list names or emails). This may not be a biggie to some, but I've definitely heard from others who liken the widespread use of oh-so-clever aliases on IRC/IM to a trip to kiddieland or CB radio. >> IRC has its place, and where immediacy is required it's nice, but >> one-size-does-not-fit-all. > > > Agreed. There is a time and a place for both email and IRC. However, > it seems like IRC's place is rather lacking in presence at the moment > -- that's essentially my entire point. IMO just asking for participation is pointless unless there's a purpose to the conversations. In the absence of such purpose, IRC is nothing more than the digital equipment of a bunch of people hanging around a lamp-post, each saying "I dunno -- what do _you_ want to do?" and hoping someone else with offer something to talk about. The purpose can be trivial but needs to be there. The useful IRC channels in which I participate -- CLUE, OSW, Drupal Ecommerce -- have purpose to their conversations. To be sure there is some spontaneous chit-chat, but those things are at their most useful when a small group has a task to tackle collectively and is there at the same time. When you ask people to go to IRC, have you answered the question "why change"? Outside of social banter -- which hasn't really succeeded amongst the existing IRC participants -- what is the compelling reason to go to IRC, learn new software and protocols and aliases, etc? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 16:07:26 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:07:26 +0000 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <4439C8EF.7070604@lansystems.ca> Message-ID: On 4/10/06, Jason Spiro wrote: > So Alt-Tab over to your IRC client and start talking. :-) C'mon, it's > not *that* hard to start a conversation: just ask a question or just > say "hi all, what's up". Even if nobody notices your comment at first, > sooner or later someone will, and you can probably set your IRC client > to alert you when someone types anything in the channel. The benefit of IRC is that it is a near-synchronous conversation. The problem with IRC is that it requires near-synchronous conversation. I'm pretty happy with the fact that I can track email, an asynchronous messaging system, as closely *or as infrequently* as I wish. If I ignore email for 6 hours, that doesn't forcibly hinder conversation at all. The same is NOT true for IRC; ignore IRC for five minutes, and a conversation may scroll away... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 19:59:59 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:59:59 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <443BD37F.1000602-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <443BB9E7.90400@utoronto.ca> <443BD37F.1000602@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604111259x46284bf6i35b95375ce4db127@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > When you ask people to go to IRC, have you answered the question "why > change"? Outside of social banter -- which hasn't really succeeded > amongst the existing IRC participants -- what is the compelling reason > to go to IRC, learn new software and protocols and aliases, etc? For me, this is a key question. It's also the reason I never learned any IRC commands beyond '/me' Instant Messaging (ala Jabber/MSN/etc) are (I suspect) simply simplified versions of IRC, and are as easy to learn as cooking hotdogs in the microwave. I'll jump on #tlug or #clue every now and then if there's a need (or just to say hi once in a while) but other than that, I just can't be bothered to learn IRC. (That'd be a challenge btw - jus' gimme a reason! ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 20:45:29 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:45:29 -0400 Subject: Lets all use the IRC channel for once In-Reply-To: <443BD37F.1000602-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <443BB9E7.90400@utoronto.ca> <443BD37F.1000602@telly.org> Message-ID: <443C1569.2080107@utoronto.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Internet Relay Chat is good for just that -- Chat. It is a reasonable > tool for specific scheduled online meetings; the Open Source Weekend > folks use it to great advantage in this way. It's also good for social > interaction because it provides immediate gratification. But IRC doesn't > scale -- having more than a dozen people talking at the same time, > especially in multiple unrelated conversations, is almost unreadable. That's a matter of opinion I'd say. #ubuntu and #gentoo are two channels I can think of off hand to which this statement might find itself some opposition. Personal preference more than anything I'd say -- some like it, some don't. > IMO just asking for participation is pointless unless there's a purpose > to the conversations. In the absence of such purpose, IRC is nothing > more than the digital equipment of a bunch of people hanging around a > lamp-post, each saying "I dunno -- what do _you_ want to do?" and hoping > someone else with offer something to talk about. The purpose can be > trivial but needs to be there. Pursue that question too far and you end up in a nihilistic division by zero loop. I think I was clear in my original post that when I wrote that the purpose, though not explicitly stated or implied as such, should be to "perhaps foster an open atmosphere for new people to come and chat" and "IRC is a great thing, both for wasting time *and* for doing and learning linux related stuff. With talk of house/lan parties, a gtalugradio podcast of some sort, Linuxworld coming up, and all manner of other related stuff going on, surely we could at least have more than the current 12 users, perhaps with more than 1 line of text per day?" > The useful IRC channels in which I participate -- CLUE, OSW, Drupal > Ecommerce -- have purpose to their conversations. To be sure there is > some spontaneous chit-chat, but those things are at their most useful > when a small group has a task to tackle collectively and is there at > the same time. > > When you ask people to go to IRC, have you answered the question "why > change"? Outside of social banter -- which hasn't really succeeded > amongst the existing IRC participants -- what is the compelling reason > to go to IRC, learn new software and protocols and aliases, etc? See above. Additionally, what more purpose need there be in relation to the above? I can imagine that many people who subscribe to this list don't/didn't even know that #toronto-lug exists. Someone was on the channel the other day who had never used it before -- if you want a purpose/reason, then that's it -- community, profile, and ideas. Linux related discussion *can* be a social thing too -- irc is just another medium of exchange, suitable for some and not for others. I don't think I'm asking anyone to change at all. While the medium may well be the message, what pray tell is wrong with the message? People using technology is what keeps many of in employed. If people didn't use irc for something (and those that do must find some meaning and purpose in it else they wouldn't I should think) how far is it to go and simply say don't use techonology for anything at all, for any social or even technical purposes? It's a slippery slope to just dismiss it out of hand. I do however recognize your opinion and thoughts on the subject and by no means do I wish to sway you, only to make it known to others that the channel exists and that there is utility in it. I don't use the channel just as much as the next person, but I'd like to and am making an attempt, regardless of how trivial such a purpose may be construed. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 02:33:06 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:33:06 -0400 Subject: Slony-1 and nodes to node sync Message-ID: <443C66E2.9010507@utoronto.ca> Chris: From what I heard tonight, it is not possible to sync a node with the last complete transaction common to all other nodes? I'm imagining an origin server that is nearly maxed out for some reason and a node or nodes that needs to be caught up asap. Perhaps this is too much of a hypothetical what if... Regardless, how hard would it be to poll other nodes and use them to sync a lagging node up to a point where it wouldn't be so much of a drain on the master? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 18:53:29 2006 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:53:29 -0400 Subject: network appliance Message-ID: Anyone have a recommendation for a very small network appliance, something under 1k with a few network ports. I want to make a dedicated VPN out of it. DAVE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 06:09:42 2006 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: network appliance Message-ID: <200604120609.k3C69gqd023394@localhost.generalconcepts.com> | Anyone have a recommendation for a very small network appliance, | something under 1k with a few network ports. I want to make a | dedicated VPN out of it. "Network Appliance" is a well defined term for something apparently completely different from what you're looking for, but would Soekris boxes meet your needs? http://www.soekris.com/ 3 ethernet, compact flash, case, power supply, about $200US. Cheers John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 06:19:23 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:19:23 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060411142601.GZ4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <20060407173457.GP4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060411035507.GC24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411142601.GZ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060412061923.GA13568@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 10:26:01AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Makes me wonder if the source code was the same version, Definitely same version. It's actually "abandon-ware", hosted at http://www.techrescue.org/xboing/ so it's not being actively updated. The documentation in /usr/share/doc/xboing-2.4-r1/changes.doc.gz says "Version 2.4 - 22nd November 1996". > and whether you may have configured debian to use vesa and gentoo > to use native x drivers for the system. Nope. Same physical machine, in both cases running Blackbox on native X. VESA requires root privileges, which I try to avoid. Furthermore, the VESA routines assume 80x25 fonts on a standard VGA (640x400) textmode console. I run 80x48 on a 640x480 VGA textmode console, and it gets badly screwed up when exiting VESA. I found this out "the hard way" when experimenting with VESA in mplayer. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 00:11:51 2006 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:11:51 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml The requested URL /subscribe.shtml was not found on this server. No.. I do not want to unsubscribe. I want to unsubscribe from one address only (an address I can not send messages from anymore). I managed to subscribe from another one (so I am twice as happy as most of you, since I receive two copies of messages every time someone posts here). I do not want to be ugly either. I did a mailing lists administrator job (free) as well and I am aware of the pain it brings. Oh, yes, I did write to what I thought was email address of admin of this list but that did not result in any outcome. Again, I may understand... but... I want to unsubscribe ;) This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 07:48:55 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 03:48:55 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <200604112011.51615.softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> Message-ID: <443CB0E7.3030508@telly.org> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > >The requested URL /subscribe.shtml was not found on this server. > >Oh, yes, I did write to what I thought was email address of admin of this list >but that did not result in any outcome. Again, I may understand... but... I >want to unsubscribe ;) > >This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, >a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. > > I don't understand the jump from "it's difficult to unsubscribe from the TLUG mailing list" to "SMTP sucks". Admin of a mailing list has little to do with the underlying protocols. Most lists to which I subscribe use mailman or some other such administrative tool that facilitates not only subscription options, but also related things such as digest and archive generation. We've come a long way from the old listserv days, and even *that* involved a fairly simple unsub process compared to what you're going through. The fact that one list's administration is giving you problems hardly indicates an indictment of the delivery protocol. To be sure, SMTP has its warts -- but what you are going through is not one of them. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 11 20:15:39 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:15:39 -0400 Subject: chording keyboards (wasLets all use the IRC channel for once) In-Reply-To: References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411141518.GX4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604111315y6410d5b0s8f6f034d6c3bd5d5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Yanni Chiu wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > As for typing, I took a typing course in high school. I learned some > > stuff, although I do in fact not type "by the rules". I think I have a > > modified way of doing it that works better for programming (and with my > > hand size/finger length I can do things like ctrl+letter/number one > > handed. Even alt+functionkey is normally not hard with one hand and > > seems pretty natural.) > > I do these "chords" too, and it probably is natural. > Whenever I do it, I think "against the rules" because > I took typing in high school too. Even though I've been hacking away since I was about 10, I also took the typing course in High School. (Ok, I took it 3 times - hey, practice makes perfect! Not to mention incredably easy credits... lol.) I didn't realize there was a name for it though... "Chording" - actually seems a fairly apt name for it. When I (unintentionally) removed a bit of my ring finger late last year (in a car door of all places) I thought I was going to die. How's a programmer supposed to program when they can't type?!?! lol. I didn't though. Instead, I learned just how much typing one can really do with only 4 fingers and a thumb. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 11:27:50 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:27:50 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060411142336.GY4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060411035436.GB24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411142336.GY4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060412112750.GB13568@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 10:23:36AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > - if you know what you're doing, you can run circles around an auto- > > transmission vehicle with the same engine. How many auto-transmission > > cars win races? > > That depends how you define "auto-transmission". Some of the sequential > gearboxes used on race cars need no clutch to change gears, just hitting > buttons, and even that could be automated (it is on many cars that use > sequential gearboxes, at least as an option, ie the Smart has such an > option). The mechanics of changing gears are different, but you still get to do it manually. And if you know what you're doing, you will beat a fully auto system. > > The idiots who insist on "-O9" and "MAKEOPTS=-j16" and stupid > > unrolling are like leadfooted drivers in manual transmission cars, > > who push the pedal to the floor and ignore the red line. > > They certainly must like broken in subtle odd ways software. Some of them were genuinely ignorant of the facts, and will change their ways when informed of what they're doing wrong, so I try not to be too harsh first time I encounter someone doing that. Others simply refuse to change regardless of repeated warnings. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 11:28:42 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:28:42 -0400 Subject: network appliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060412112842.GA21091@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 02:53:29PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: >Anyone have a recommendation for a very small network appliance, >something under 1k with a few network ports. I want to make a >dedicated VPN out of it. Just yesterday on the Debian Weekly News I something that might work for you - the Linksys NSLU2. Here's a place describing how to get Debian on it: http://www.cyrius.com/journal/debian/beta2-nslu2 Here's the product description: http://www1.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=640 And here's a local store with one for sale of $91: http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=004999&cid=990.434 Hope that helps :-) Let us know how you do. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 12:10:10 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:10:10 -0400 Subject: Bytecc 2.5" External Drive Enclosure - bus power supplies enough juice? In-Reply-To: <440F3ECB.3090006-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10603081143i1a87c5a0re37cef0566b2dee3@mail.gmail.com> <000001c642e9$8f881070$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <61e9e2b10603081204s75fcc7fv610ffb1fb889ab78@mail.gmail.com> <440F3ECB.3090006@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604120510y35c239c5h59a2a3f8eea8c19@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I recently purchased a Vantec Nexstar 2.5" model from Filtech for > $19.99. I've got a 40gig drive in it that runs off my Asus laptop very > well without any power adapter or doubled up cable (it does come with > the 2 port cable however). Simple and cheap, I highly recommend it. > Nothing fancy but it works. I ended up purchasing the Vantec enclosure from Filtech - as suggested - and wrote up a HOWTO detailing the setup of Kanotix on a USB external drive as a portable computing solution: http://biohackery.com/howto-install-linux-on-a-usb-external-drive-for-nomadic-computing Thanks for the earlier tips posted on this list. In my HOWTO under 'Resources' I mention LUGs in general and put in a link to GTALUG in particular. Wow... I am loving Kanotix right now. What an amazing distro - did a permanent hard drive install on my main box as well. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 13:28:22 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:28:22 -0400 Subject: Slony-1 and nodes to node sync In-Reply-To: <443C66E2.9010507-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443C66E2.9010507@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <443D0076.7090003@utoronto.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Chris: > > From what I heard tonight, it is not possible to sync a node with the > last complete transaction common to all other nodes? I'm imagining an > origin server that is nearly maxed out for some reason and a node or > nodes that needs to be caught up asap. > > Perhaps this is too much of a hypothetical what if... Regardless, how > hard would it be to poll other nodes and use them to sync a lagging node > up to a point where it wouldn't be so much of a drain on the master? Nevermind with this: I realised that the nodes don't have triggers enabled on their tables so this idea is just me trying to understand something that is far to technically complex for my meager abilities and technical needs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 13:30:47 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:30:47 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060412112750.GB13568-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060411035436.GB24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411142336.GY4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060412112750.GB13568@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060412133047.GB4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 07:27:50AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > The mechanics of changing gears are different, but you still get to do > it manually. And if you know what you're doing, you will beat a fully > auto system. Some modern automatics, you can't beat. They change gears too fast. You can possibly beat them at picking the right time to change, but that too is becoming very difficult. > Some of them were genuinely ignorant of the facts, and will change > their ways when informed of what they're doing wrong, so I try not to > be too harsh first time I encounter someone doing that. Others simply > refuse to change regardless of repeated warnings. Some people simply refuse to learn from other people's experience. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 14:10:56 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:10:56 -0500 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <200604112011.51615.softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > The requested URL /subscribe.shtml was not found on this server. Aah, so the problem lives on. There have been a few other people who have brought this up over the past long while. I'd help, but I've no clue where to begin to find the mailing list footer. In the meantime, I hope the info on the wiki is correct: http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Please send a mail to: tlug-request-HcP7FbCj2GFAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org tlug-announce-request-HcP7FbCj2GFAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org And in the body of the message, place only: "subscribe" to subscribe or "unsubscribe" to unsubscribe, without the quotes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 14:12:21 2006 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:12:21 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Job Announcement: ICS looking for C and C++ programmers...paying "good dollar" Message-ID: <200604121012.22011.interlug@weait.net> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Job Announcement: ICS looking for C and C++ programmers...paying "good dollar" Date: Wednesday 12 April 2006 09:30 From: Jon maddog Hall To: gnhlug-announce-42Xinq3euNkdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Cc: maddog-2l5V8CiXCHs at public.gmane.org Hi, A friend and long time associate of mine, Peter Winston has a company called ICS. Those of you with hair that is turning grey or white may remember Peter's company sponsoring the old Xhibition shows in the early days of the X Window System. You may also remember ICS from their support of Motif, and from their builder tools. Peter is looking for C and C++ programmers, and I have been told by him that he is paying "good dollar" for salaries. I asked Peter for a better description of the job, and he sent me this: Integrated Computer Solutions, Inc. (ICS), the leader in advanced graphical user interface development, has a number of positions available for C++ Programmers. The successful candidates MUST have 1-3 years of GUI programming experience and solid C++ software engineering experience. Recent experience with Qt is a plus. Our customers often require security clearance and US Citizenship. As a member of the ICS staff, you will be a part of the largest independent supplier of add-on products, training, and professional services for the Qt multi-platform framework developed by Trolltech. Currently we have positions in the Boston, DC, Houston and Silicon Valley areas. You will: o Design, develop, code, test, document, and support C++ and Qt software applications. o You will act as a Qt user interface expert for ICS. Due to the nature of Qt, development happens on several operating systems (Windows, Linux, Unix, and Macintosh), and the developer needs to be familiar with at least two of them, and able to work on the remaining ones. o You will also be expected to attend customer meetings which will require travel. You have: o Incredible coding skills. o Excellent command of written and spoken English. o Bachelor's degree or equivalent. o Incredible insight into all the aspects of software development, including client/server programming. o The ability to travel. o Strong interpersonal and communication skills You are: o Self-motivated combined with a proven ability to work well in teams o Able to learn quickly and willing to share knowledge o Flexible, enjoying a fast changing and unpredictable environment Please send resumes to jobs-OVFjX/pycg8 at public.gmane.org -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: maddog-2l5V8CiXCHs at public.gmane.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. _______________________________________________ gnhlug-announce mailing list gnhlug-announce-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A at public.gmane.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-announce ------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 16:09:15 2006 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:09:15 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <443CB0E7.3030508-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> <443CB0E7.3030508@telly.org> Message-ID: <200604121209.16145.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On April 12, 2006 03:48, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > >The requested URL /subscribe.shtml was not found on this server. > > > >Oh, yes, I did write to what I thought was email address of admin > > of this list but that did not result in any outcome. Again, I may > > understand... but... I want to unsubscribe ;) > > > >This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp > > is a mess, a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other > > communication protocols. > > I don't understand the jump from "it's difficult to unsubscribe > from the TLUG mailing list" to "SMTP sucks". > > Admin of a mailing list has little to do with the underlying > protocols. Most lists to which I subscribe use mailman or some > other such administrative tool that facilitates not only > subscription options, but also related things such as digest and > archive generation. As a Mailman list admin, I have to wonder why so many people subscribe to digests. How can anyone follow a thread that spans days if they're receiving a daily digest? Perhaps a digest subscriber can explain the benefits of subscribing that way. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 16:23:10 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:23:10 -0400 Subject: Bytecc 2.5" External Drive Enclosure - bus power supplies enough juice? In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604120510y35c239c5h59a2a3f8eea8c19-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10603081143i1a87c5a0re37cef0566b2dee3@mail.gmail.com> <000001c642e9$8f881070$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <61e9e2b10603081204s75fcc7fv610ffb1fb889ab78@mail.gmail.com> <440F3ECB.3090006@utoronto.ca> <61e9e2b10604120510y35c239c5h59a2a3f8eea8c19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443D296E.5010805@utoronto.ca> Daniel Armstrong wrote: > On 3/8/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> I recently purchased a Vantec Nexstar 2.5" model from Filtech for >> $19.99. I've got a 40gig drive in it that runs off my Asus laptop very >> well without any power adapter or doubled up cable (it does come with >> the 2 port cable however). Simple and cheap, I highly recommend it. >> Nothing fancy but it works. > > I ended up purchasing the Vantec enclosure from Filtech - as suggested > - and wrote up a HOWTO detailing the setup of Kanotix on a USB > external drive as a portable computing solution: > > http://biohackery.com/howto-install-linux-on-a-usb-external-drive-for-nomadic-computing > > Thanks for the earlier tips posted on this list. In my HOWTO under > 'Resources' I mention LUGs in general and put in a link to GTALUG in > particular. > > Wow... I am loving Kanotix right now. What an amazing distro - did a > permanent hard drive install on my main box as well. Brilliant. Great howto -- very comprehensive. Dl'ing kanotix now to put on my 40gb 2.5" drive. Thanks. Anyone considering a livecd with persistent /home, programs, settings, and speed should read Daniel's excellent howto. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 17:44:59 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:44:59 +0000 Subject: Slony-1 and nodes to node sync In-Reply-To: <443C66E2.9010507-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443C66E2.9010507@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Chris: > > From what I heard tonight, it is not possible to sync a node with the > last complete transaction common to all other nodes? I'm imagining an > origin server that is nearly maxed out for some reason and a node or > nodes that needs to be caught up asap. That wouldn't happen because the origin is the only place where updates take place. Something sort of like what you're talking about can be the case at failover time; if the master fails, you might find that different subscribers are "differently up to date," and, notably, the node you want to take over might not be as up to date as other nodes. If *that* happens, the node that is to take over will catch up based on the data on the other available nodes until it has the latest SYNC available. But that's a failover thing, not the "usual" activity. > Perhaps this is too much of a hypothetical what if... Regardless, how > hard would it be to poll other nodes and use them to sync a lagging node > up to a point where it wouldn't be so much of a drain on the master? In a way that's the point of the notion of "cascading" subscribers. You might have a subscriber list like... Node Feeds From ------------------------------------------------ A Nowhere - I'm the origin! B A C B D B E B Thus, A directly feeds node B, which then feeds a bunch more nodes, which means that node B "takes the heat" rather than node A. The idea of dynamically switching around the subscriptions to try to diminish loading is interesting, in principle. No one has done it in practice as far as I know; the trouble with it isn't so much theoretical as the "practical" matter of having some "objective" measure of how heavily loaded the nodes are. What with computers having a whole bunch of different kinds of resources (consider CPUs, memory, disk I/O, memory bandwidth, network bandwidth), making up a metric to use seems more trouble than it's worth. In practice, if you really need High Availability, you need to fairly seriously overprovision enough of the systems that you expect them NOT to be challenged, which means that what we might call "static routing" is normally good enough. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 17:47:40 2006 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:47:40 -0400 Subject: OT: Oracle Message-ID: Hi, I am interested in pursuing an education in Oracle. I'm wondering what employment opportunities exist for someone with Oracle Certification? If anyone has any information or ideas, I'd be very grateful! I think there should be many opportunities as almost every industry uses databases. I'm also wondering how hard it is for someone with a certificate, but no work experience, to find employment in this field. OCA: Oracle Certified Associate OCP: Oracle Certified Professional Thanks for any help. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 18:07:56 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:07:56 +0000 Subject: OT: Oracle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/06, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I am interested in pursuing an education in Oracle. I'm wondering what > employment opportunities exist for someone with Oracle Certification? > If anyone has any information or ideas, I'd be very grateful! > > I think there should be many opportunities as almost every industry > uses databases. I'm also wondering how hard it is for someone with a > certificate, but no work experience, to find employment in this field. There almost always is the rub... There historically are plenty of places that could use someone who is an experienced Oracle DBA; places which need that typically can't afford the time and effort to take someone inexperienced and make them experienced because there's Important Stuff We Need To Do Now. As mentioned last night, Afilias does have openings for DBAs. And it's worth mentioning that we're not exclusively looking for people that already have enormous PostgreSQL experience, as we have historically found that to be difficult to search for. Experience with other databases would be considered valuable; the things that tend to be of "negative value" are what is classically a sort of "Oracle bigotry," namely where people think that how Oracle implements things is necessarily the Only Way Databases Are Supposed To Work. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 18:37:05 2006 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 14:37:05 -0400 Subject: OT: Oracle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/12/06, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I am interested in pursuing an education in Oracle. I'm wondering what > > employment opportunities exist for someone with Oracle Certification? > > If anyone has any information or ideas, I'd be very grateful! > > > > I think there should be many opportunities as almost every industry > > uses databases. I'm also wondering how hard it is for someone with a > > certificate, but no work experience, to find employment in this field. > > There almost always is the rub... There historically are plenty of > places that could use someone who is an experienced Oracle DBA; places > which need that typically can't afford the time and effort to take > someone inexperienced and make them experienced because there's > Important Stuff We Need To Do Now. > > As mentioned last night, Afilias does have openings for DBAs. And > it's worth mentioning that we're not exclusively looking for people > that already have enormous PostgreSQL experience, as we have > historically found that to be difficult to search for. > > Experience with other databases would be considered valuable; the > things that tend to be of "negative value" are what is classically a > sort of "Oracle bigotry," namely where people think that how Oracle > implements things is necessarily the Only Way Databases Are Supposed > To Work. > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html Christopher, Thanks for the info. Right now I am reading an SQL book that is very good at showing the differences in DBMSes... Oracle, PostgreSQL, MySQL, DB2 and even Msoft. I plan on delving into the opensource ones (PostgreSQL and MySQL) as much as possible too. Primarily I picked Oracle because it is the defacto industry standard, but also so that I can obtain a "certificate", as that is what employers always want to see (or so it seems). Thanks for your words of encouragement. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 19:32:03 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:32:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Oracle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443D55B3.3020902@telly.org> Hello Steve, >Right now I am reading an SQL book that is very >good at showing the differences in DBMSes... Oracle, PostgreSQL, >MySQL, DB2 and even Msoft. I plan on delving into the opensource ones >(PostgreSQL and MySQL) as much as possible too. Primarily I picked >Oracle because it is the defacto industry standard, but also so that I >can obtain a "certificate", as that is what employers always want to >see (or so it seems). > > There are alternatives to Oracle if certification is important: http://www.mysql.com/training/certification/ - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 20:10:36 2006 From: shiwan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Vlad) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:10:36 -0400 Subject: network appliance In-Reply-To: <20060412112842.GA21091-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060412112842.GA21091@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I'm going to assume that you want A Real Appliance(tm), since we're talking about VPNs. (Before the flame war starts, for the purposes of this discussion FreeS/WAN / OpenS/WAN / whatever it's called now does NOT count.) I recommend one of the following, depending on needs: * Juniper NetScreen 5GT 10U - can do 10 VPN tunnels, with the throughput being up to 20Mbps 3DES/AES. (~US$350 for a used one, or US$425 for a new one. About twice that for an unlimited user (read: MIPs) version.) It can even handle 10 VLANs, in Trust/Untrust mode. * Cisco PIX 501 10U - same number of tunnels, but throughput is much lower: 3Mbps for 3DES, and 4.5Mbps for AES. Same costs, but crappier software, IMHO. * Cisco 800 Series router. You can even get one with something like an ADSL WIC built-in, to use as an edge device; grab an IP Security IOS bundle for it, and you're set. Costs will vary, but still under 1k. There's other options, too: WatchGuard and SofaWare at Home (embedded CheckPoint) are supposedly decent. Maybe try SonicWall or FortiNet FortiGate (if you don't mind that they've been sued for infringing the GPL). I'm open to suggestions, of course. I've had the pleasure of working with dozens of NetScreens in one environment, and almost a hundred PIXen in another. Cheers, -- Vlad On 4/12/06, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 02:53:29PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > >Anyone have a recommendation for a very small network appliance, > >something under 1k with a few network ports. I want to make a > >dedicated VPN out of it. > > Just yesterday on the Debian Weekly News I something that might work for > you - the Linksys NSLU2. Here's a place describing how to get Debian on > it: > http://www.cyrius.com/journal/debian/beta2-nslu2 > > Here's the product description: > http://www1.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=640 > > And here's a local store with one for sale of $91: > http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=004999&cid=990.434 > > Hope that helps :-) > > Let us know how you do. > -- > > yours, > > William > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFEPORqHQtmiuz+KT8RAi61AJ0YkQTbC5dH7rgTWTykxyXgnbJslQCePCdo > fluz2VJmw38dx8ANKSawDpk= > =lzSI > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- end -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 20:17:58 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:17:58 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) Message-ID: On 4/11/06, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, > a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. SMTP has problems that make spammers' jobs easier. But at least some ISPs are experimenting with new anti-spam techniques, such as allowing email senders to pay a tiny fee to bypass spam filters. Perhaps once enough large e-mail providers adopt this technique, the spam problem will be reduced. Of course, as Wikipedia[1] points out, when malware authors send email from the PCs they infect, they will probably find a way to charge those fees to the PCs' owners. Hopefully that will only encourage people to be more careful about PC security instead of being a fatal blow to the popularity of cost-based systems. Jason [1] See http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_e-mail_abuse#Cost-Based_systems and scroll down to the "Issues" heading. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 20:43:58 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:43:58 +0000 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/11/06, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > > This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, > > a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. > > SMTP has problems that make spammers' jobs easier. > > But at least some ISPs are experimenting with new anti-spam > techniques, such as allowing email senders to pay a tiny fee to bypass > spam filters. Perhaps once enough large e-mail providers adopt this > technique, the spam problem will be reduced. And you seem unconcerned about the chilling effects of this on mailing lists such as this one? A "tiny fee" would be a couple cents per recipient. If there are 500 members of a mailing list such as this, and 10 messages per day, that would mean that the "anti spam" fees to get THIS mail through would be on the order of $100/day. Technical mailing lists would no longer be available "for free"... I'm exceedingly unimpressed with these "cost-based" proposals... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 20:57:12 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:57:12 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443D69A8.3070906@utoronto.ca> Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/11/06, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, >> a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. > > SMTP has problems that make spammers' jobs easier. > > But at least some ISPs are experimenting with new anti-spam > techniques, such as allowing email senders to pay a tiny fee to bypass > spam filters. Perhaps once enough large e-mail providers adopt this > technique, the spam problem will be reduced. > > Of course, as Wikipedia[1] points out, when malware authors send email > from the PCs they infect, they will probably find a way to charge > those fees to the PCs' owners. Hopefully that will only encourage > people to be more careful about PC security instead of being a fatal > blow to the popularity of cost-based systems. Haven't read the wikipedia article (been following on other places), but I wonder if you meant to say "instead of being a fatal blow?" I should think that in this case, unsuspecting users would be an *asset* in striking the fatal blow at a pay-per-message scheme. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 22:46:23 2006 From: leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:46:23 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604121846.23454.leah@frauerpower.com> On Wednesday 12 April 2006 10:10, Sy Ali wrote: > In the meantime, I hope the info on the wiki is correct: > http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Please send a mail to: > > tlug-request-HcP7FbCj2GFAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org > tlug-announce-request-HcP7FbCj2GFAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org > > And in the body of the message, place only: > > "subscribe" to subscribe or "unsubscribe" to unsubscribe, without > the quotes. Last I checked, the email based method still works. The current TLUG list is on an outmoded majordomo system that is planned to be replaced with the new lists.gtalug.org mailman server at some point. Maybe before the apocalypse... There is some question to if the list should be renamed to gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org or to tlug-kPTIhHHajqCUDcPCtBIScg at public.gmane.org Leah -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 22:47:40 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:47:40 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <443D69A8.3070906-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443D69A8.3070906@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I wonder if you meant to say "instead of being a fatal blow?" I should > think that in this case, unsuspecting users would be an *asset* in > striking the fatal blow at a pay-per-message scheme. Jamon, Christopher, I would prefer a bond-based system by far: a system where there's only a charge if the recipient clicks the "This is spam" button. A stamp-based system such as the one that AOL is setting up is worse, but currently IIRC it's in a limited stage where unpaid emails are still delivered, they're just passed through ordinary anti-spam filtering software first. This limited stage may turn out to be far better than nothing at all. Also, it wouldn't be that hard to switch to a bond-based system later on. The use of a stamp system during the trial period is a good way to figure out whether people want to use a paid email system at all. Regards, Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:11:47 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:11:47 -0400 Subject: Disk space by filetype Message-ID: I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. But first, I wonder: Is there an easy way for me find out what proportion of my disk is made of what sorts of files? This would allow me to answer such questions as: What proportion of my disk do binaries and libraries take up anyway? Text files? (For example, my /var/lib/dpkg/info directory takes up 28MB. Nothing there is compressed. Makes you wonder if whole-disk compressed file systems are worth it...) Could I have hundreds of megabytes of .o files left over from compiling things? I'm sure I could hack something up in perl, but if there was a nice graphical tool it'd be even better. I couldn't find anything in Debian's apt repository or on freshmeat. xdiskusage and kdirstat do not do this measurement. gdmap colorizes by filetype but does not have the summary reporting functionality I am looking for. Any thoughts? Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:17:30 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:17:30 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <200604121846.23454.leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72@mail.gmail.com> <200604121846.23454.leah@frauerpower.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Leah Cunningham wrote: > Last I checked, the email based method still works. The current TLUG list is > on an outmoded majordomo system that is planned to be replaced with the new > lists.gtalug.org mailman server at some point. Maybe before the > apocalypse... I find mailman's web interface sometimes makes simple things difficult. Is there a good alternative web interface for mailing list subscription and unsubscription? > There is some question to if the list should be renamed to gtalug at gtalug.org > or to tlug-kPTIhHHajqCUDcPCtBIScg at public.gmane.org IMO, gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org would be easier to remember. Maybe we could also ask the freenode volunteer staff to redirect #gtalug so it takes people directly to #toronto-lug. Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:37:34 2006 From: leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:37:34 -0400 Subject: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Classifieds Message-ID: <200604121937.34208.leah@frauerpower.com> I get a lot of random messages from folks asking if they can provide some offer to the GTALUG list, advertise for jobs or services wanted, etc. It occurred to me that it might be useful to folks to have an area on the website like an informal community bulletin board/classifieds area for stuff that people are not sure belongs on the mailing list, but would like to advertise to GTALUG members and associates. So, I created an area on the wiki called http://gtalug.org/wiki/Classifieds where folks can post stuff like this. Obviously, since it is a wiki, if folks feel that your offering is offensive, or out of date, or whatever, it may just go *poof* I have some examples on there for copying and pasting for those who are not wiki familiar. Just wanted to let folks on the list know about it in case you have people who are asking you about these sorts of things too. -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:23:22 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:23:22 -0400 Subject: [OT] AirPort card needed Message-ID: <1144884202.27312.2.camel@neo> Good evening, If anyone has old regular [cardbus] airport card hanging around, I would take it for 40$. Thanks, Pavel APN: 630-2883 or around that. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:41:18 2006 From: leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:41:18 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604121846.23454.leah@frauerpower.com> Message-ID: <200604121941.18147.leah@frauerpower.com> On Wednesday 12 April 2006 19:17, Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/12/06, Leah Cunningham wrote: > > Last I checked, the email based method still works. The current TLUG > > list is on an outmoded majordomo system that is planned to be replaced > > with the new lists.gtalug.org mailman server at some point. Maybe before > > the apocalypse... > > I find mailman's web interface sometimes makes simple things > difficult. Is there a good alternative web interface for mailing list > subscription and unsubscription? > > > There is some question to if the list should be renamed to > > gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org or to tlug-kPTIhHHajqCUDcPCtBIScg at public.gmane.org > > IMO, gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org would be easier to remember. Maybe we could > also ask the freenode volunteer staff to redirect #gtalug so it takes > people directly to #toronto-lug. Yes, I think probably it will be gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org and maybe we'll have an alias for the other... That's a really good idea. If anyone has the time to poke some freenode staff member about it, I think it should be done. -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:29:26 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:29:26 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: <200604121846.23454.leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72@mail.gmail.com> <200604121846.23454.leah@frauerpower.com> Message-ID: <1144884566.27377.4.camel@neo> > lists.gtalug.org mailman server at some point. Maybe before the > apocalypse... R.S.N. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:44:12 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:44:12 -0400 Subject: Bytecc 2.5" External Drive Enclosure - bus power supplies enough juice? In-Reply-To: <443D296E.5010805-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10603081143i1a87c5a0re37cef0566b2dee3@mail.gmail.com> <000001c642e9$8f881070$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <61e9e2b10603081204s75fcc7fv610ffb1fb889ab78@mail.gmail.com> <440F3ECB.3090006@utoronto.ca> <61e9e2b10604120510y35c239c5h59a2a3f8eea8c19@mail.gmail.com> <443D296E.5010805@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604121644h1b4e1599l31e4e7b97ca502b8@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > I ended up purchasing the Vantec enclosure from Filtech - as suggested > > - and wrote up a HOWTO detailing the setup of Kanotix on a USB > > external drive as a portable computing solution: > > > > http://biohackery.com/howto-install-linux-on-a-usb-external-drive-for-nomadic-computing > > > > Brilliant. Great howto -- very comprehensive. Dl'ing kanotix now to put > on my 40gb 2.5" drive. Thanks. Anyone considering a livecd with > persistent /home, programs, settings, and speed should read Daniel's > excellent howto. Thanks Jamon! Hope the HOWTO proves useful. Let me know how it works out for you. -- Daniel W. Armstrong :: friendly freaks of nature www.biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:46:06 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:46:06 -0400 Subject: Booth volunteers wanted... In-Reply-To: <20060410173227.2156.qmail-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410173227.2156.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604121646o452ef823p52e5cab232ea465d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Colin McGregor wrote: > April 25th and 26th the Linux World Canada show will > be on down at the Metro Convention Centre, and I am > looking to staff (well, overstaff) the GTALug booth. Hi Colin... I would be happy to help out at the booth. Count me in. -- Daniel W. Armstrong :: friendly freaks of nature www.biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:46:22 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:46:22 -0700 Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, I found one that can filter by filetype. It's called qdu. The server where it is hosted seems to have been down but if you search on Google for qdu-2.2.tar.gz you can find a copy elsewhere. http://freshmeat.net/qdu Cheers, Jason On 4/12/06, Jason Spiro wrote: > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. > > But first, I wonder: Is there an easy way for me find out what > proportion of my disk is made of what sorts of files? > > This would allow me to answer such questions as: What proportion of my > disk do binaries and libraries take up anyway? Text files? (For > example, my /var/lib/dpkg/info directory takes up 28MB. Nothing there > is compressed. Makes you wonder if whole-disk compressed file systems > are worth it...) Could I have hundreds of megabytes of .o files left > over from compiling things? > > I'm sure I could hack something up in perl, but if there was a nice > graphical tool it'd be even better. I couldn't find anything in > Debian's apt repository or on freshmeat. xdiskusage and kdirstat do > not do this measurement. gdmap colorizes by filetype but does not have > the summary reporting functionality I am looking for. > > Any thoughts? > Jason > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 12 23:50:47 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:50:47 -0400 Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604121950.47499.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Wednesday 12 April 2006 19:11, Jason Spiro wrote: > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. > > But first, I wonder: Is there an easy way for me find out what > proportion of my disk is made of what sorts of files? > > This would allow me to answer such questions as: What proportion of my > disk do binaries and libraries take up anyway? Text files? (For > example, my /var/lib/dpkg/info directory takes up 28MB. Nothing there > is compressed. Makes you wonder if whole-disk compressed file systems > are worth it...) Could I have hundreds of megabytes of .o files left > over from compiling things? > > I'm sure I could hack something up in perl, but if there was a nice > graphical tool it'd be even better. I couldn't find anything in > Debian's apt repository or on freshmeat. xdiskusage and kdirstat do > not do this measurement. gdmap colorizes by filetype but does not have > the summary reporting functionality I am looking for. > > Any thoughts? > Jason > -- Not quite exactly what you are looking for, but Filelight is still great for determining where the disk space is being consumed. http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=9887 It is available through apt. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/kde/filelight -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 00:29:18 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:29:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Oracle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443D9B5E.5050901@rogers.com> bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi, > > I am interested in pursuing an education in Oracle. I'm wondering what > employment opportunities exist for someone with Oracle Certification? > If anyone has any information or ideas, I'd be very grateful! > > I think there should be many opportunities as almost every industry > uses databases. I'm also wondering how hard it is for someone with a > certificate, but no work experience, to find employment in this field. > > OCA: Oracle Certified Associate > OCP: Oracle Certified Professional Oracle has an office in Mississauga. Perhaps they could provide some tips. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 00:32:49 2006 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:32:49 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060412203249.6d063b77.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:17:58 -0400 Jason Spiro got an infinite number of monkeys to type out: > > This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a > > mess, a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication > > protocols. > > SMTP has problems that make spammers' jobs easier. M$ by *far* exceeds SMTP in making spammers' jobs easier. http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,60747,00.html > But at least some ISPs are experimenting with new anti-spam > techniques, such as allowing email senders to pay a tiny fee to bypass > spam filters. Perhaps once enough large e-mail providers adopt this > technique, the spam problem will be reduced. Penalizing honest users for the negligence of the idiots at Microsoft and the criminal behaviour of spammers sounds like something China would come up with, not a free society. We let insurance companies and banks get away with this, let's not start with ISP's. Anyway, any ISP that implements something like this stupidity is just going to give impetus for others (with brains) to start up operations that don't treat all their customers as potential criminals, and I'll be the first to sign up. -- JoeHill / RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just has an economy that makes no sense to capitalism. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 00:35:13 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:35:13 -0400 Subject: Booth volunteers wanted... In-Reply-To: <20060410173227.2156.qmail-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060410173227.2156.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1144888514.27580.0.camel@neo> Count me in, Pavel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 04:09:40 2006 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:09:40 -0400 Subject: chording keyboards (wasLets all use the IRC channel for once) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604111315y6410d5b0s8f6f034d6c3bd5d5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411141518.GX4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0604111315y6410d5b0s8f6f034d6c3bd5d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443DCF04.30500@utoronto.ca> Scott Elcomb wrote: > > When I (unintentionally) removed a bit of my ring finger late last > year (in a car door of all places) I thought I was going to die. > How's a programmer supposed to program when they can't type?!?! lol. > > I didn't though. Instead, I learned just how much typing one can > really do with only 4 fingers and a thumb. Didn't you mean to say 3 fingers and a thumb and should have said 7 fingers and two thumbs. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 04:15:34 2006 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:15:34 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing... etc In-Reply-To: References: <4433F6A7.6050307@rogers.com> <200604112011.51615.softquake@gmail.com> <1e55af990604120710u782338d8le51cb2f0d4680e72@mail.gmail.com> <200604121846.23454.leah@frauerpower.com> Message-ID: <443DD066.5090800@utoronto.ca> Jason Spiro wrote: > IMO, gtalug-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org would be easier to remember. Maybe we could > also ask the freenode volunteer staff to redirect #gtalug so it takes > people directly to #toronto-lug. Shouldn't #gtalug become the official irc channel and have #toronto-lug redirected to it? Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 05:15:26 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:15:26 -0400 Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? Message-ID: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> The weather is getting nicer, and I occasionally walk to and/or from work. I do need the 40 minutes excercise each way, but it gets boring thinking to myself for 40 minutes. An MP3 player would be a solution. I'm looking for the following characteristics... - can play MP3 and hopefully OGG files - can be managed from linux. I don't care whether it's a USB port or loading up a *STANDARD* memory card via my all-in-one card reader. I obviously do not want something that requires me to run the manufacturer's proprietary Windows-only control program -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 05:15:49 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:15:49 -0400 Subject: Linux fat/bloated In-Reply-To: <20060412133047.GB4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060407033622.GD6886@waltdnes.org> <1144420269.443677ad968cf@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060411035436.GB24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411142336.GY4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060412112750.GB13568@waltdnes.org> <20060412133047.GB4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060413051548.GB6986@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:30:47AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Some modern automatics, you can't beat. They change gears too fast. > You can possibly beat them at picking the right time to change, > but that too is becoming very difficult. "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". This applies to automatic transmissions as well. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 05:16:08 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:16:08 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413051608.GC6986@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 08:43:58PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote > And you seem unconcerned about the chilling effects of this on > mailing lists such as this one? I'd actually prefer a closed nntp server with loosely-moderated groups. Mailing lists are a pretty good imitation of usenet, but I would prefer the real thing. It shouldn't be any more effort/hassle to maintain than a mailing list. And you wouldn't have to worry about tripping over spamfilters. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 06:47:02 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? In-Reply-To: <20060413051526.GA6986-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | An MP3 player would be a solution. | I'm looking for the following characteristics... | | - can play MP3 and hopefully OGG files | | - can be managed from linux. I don't care whether it's a USB port or | loading up a *STANDARD* memory card via my all-in-one card reader. | I obviously do not want something that requires me to run the | manufacturer's proprietary Windows-only control program There are many choices that are good, bad, or somewhere in between. iPods are OK but expensive. They can even run Linux (but the only advantage of doing so (AFAIK) is that you can then play oggs). Traditionally, iRiver was the device of choice for Linux folks but iRiver has mostly gone over the the dark side (PaysForSure(TM)). This is what I chose recently: http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=009219&cid=MP.29&PHPSESSID=fe028cb7628857f9fe0d098c13c320fb + cheap ($60) so you can easily write it off and replace it when something better comes along + small, light, solid state + does OGG (and MP3 and WMA) + looks like a USB drive to a computer, so no fancy programs are required + has a built-in USB plug, so you don't need to carry a USB cable. + 512M is fine (not generous). I guess that amounts to a few hundred songs (I don't use mine for music, so I don't actually know) - not all headphones fit because there isn't a lot of clearance between the plug and the bridge to which the lanyard can be tied. - built-in "Li-poly" battery is probably not replaceable. - voice recorder is OK. Telephone quality? 8000KHz mono. - no radio - cannot seem to fast forward through oggs that I have created by capturing CBC's stream. I don't understand the issues involved so this might not be possible. - no bookmark feature, as far as I can tell. But when you turn it on, it resumes where it left off. I am not able to judge sound quality because I don't listen to music. I also have cheap headphones (not the bundled ones -- I haven't tried them). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 08:03:38 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:03:38 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <20060413051608.GC6986-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060413051608.GC6986@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1144915418.11725.2.camel@neo> I would second that. There will always be central database of messages present. There more reusabilty on user side of things. One can refer to earlier topic to early comer but not so with email. my 2c. ? ???, 13/04/2006 ? 01:16 -0400, Walter Dnes ?????: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 08:43:58PM +0000, Christopher Browne wrote > > > And you seem unconcerned about the chilling effects of this on > > mailing lists such as this one? > > I'd actually prefer a closed nntp server with loosely-moderated > groups. Mailing lists are a pretty good imitation of usenet, but I > would prefer the real thing. It shouldn't be any more effort/hassle to > maintain than a mailing list. And you wouldn't have to worry about > tripping over spamfilters. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 08:21:41 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:21:41 -0400 Subject: MP3 Players In-Reply-To: <440CF7EE.7070402-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4403BB56.5020103@sympatico.ca> <4405999B.3060909@georgetown.wehave.net> <440CF7EE.7070402@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> > Thanks to all for the pointers, it really gave me a good idea what to > look for. I found a couple of players at Staples which play MP3 and Ogg > (iRiver and Samsung), so that's probably the way I'll go. Don't get iriver, since they have fallen to dark side not only legally but technically too. Their new players aren't supported even by old iriver software. And supplied package comes only for windows. From reviews Samsung memory stick may well be the bargain. If you want to go for sound quality i'd recommend shuffle. I read some very technical reviews, specifying that shuffle is best of the ipods in terms of sound quality, better then any their other offerings. Cheers, Pavel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 08:26:43 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? In-Reply-To: <20060413051526.GA6986-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Walter Dnes wrote: > The weather is getting nicer, and I occasionally walk to and/or from > work. I do need the 40 minutes excercise each way, but it gets boring > thinking to myself for 40 minutes. An MP3 player would be a solution. > I'm looking for the following characteristics... > > - can play MP3 and hopefully OGG files In my research last year I found a lot supported ogg vorbis. Often it was advertised on the back of the packaging but not the front. Useful link for hardware compatibility: http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/PortablePlayers We took a printout of this list when we went to get ours :) > - can be managed from linux. I don't care whether it's a USB port or > loading up a *STANDARD* memory card via my all-in-one card reader. Unless a usb device is totally bizarre it should just appear as a mass storage device. > I obviously do not want something that requires me to run the > manufacturer's proprietary Windows-only control program I bought an Ogg player just plugged it in and it in and mounted it. I could have used the mtools :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 08:36:47 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications Binaries (and thus libraries) tend to compress poorly. I'd say you have little to gain from doing this. I bought a 300GB drive in a combined firewire/usb2 enclosure for about $240 (incl tax) the day before yesterday. IMHO the solutions to this problem are: a) Increasing drive capacity b) Improved data management c) Both a and b. > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. Feel free to strip your binaries if they are not already. No problem there if you don't want debugging output. The savings still won't be huge. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 09:01:40 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:01:40 -0400 Subject: MP3 Players In-Reply-To: <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> References: <4403BB56.5020103@sympatico.ca> <4405999B.3060909@georgetown.wehave.net> <440CF7EE.7070402@sympatico.ca> <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> Message-ID: <20060413050140.79222cd0.tleslie@tcn.net> I got my Wife a Rio Forge sport, its about 80$ (now) i think, what really cool about it, is when i got it, i think it only had 256M storage, but takes SD, and now you can get a SD 2GB for 60$ . She uses it on her Win box, but since in this thread, it was mentioned that they should just plugin to the usb and mount as mass storage , i will try that. The Rio has radio and also EQ. The EQ , i think , is a must, my brother has a shuffle, and i thought it was cool, especially the size. But comparing it to the Rio Sportage, since shuffle doesnt have EQ, with the SD expansion, lcd menu/display, etc, the Rio just smokes the Shuffle. Rio also ranked unbelievably high in reviews. It comes with very good buds. The Sport also is drop proof, as its made for running, etc, splash proof, etc. It fairly small, but the thing they give you to ware it on your wrist is kinda dorky. nothing beats shuffle for the portability factor, i mean its basically just a gum stick on a pair of head phones. But without EQ, the shuffles is basically useless, unless you eq all your tunes before hand. Rio has pretty amazing battery life too. Rio has cool menu navigation, book marks, fav's,etc. If i was getting one, i'd get another in a second. I have my Linux Sharp Zaurus i use for a mp3 player, all be it an expensive one .... but on that note, if you want a really cool Linux mp3 player, get a used Zaurus on ebay!! :) if the Rio Sport Forge is a choice you make .. i can see if it mounts on Linux before you buy. Rio uses mp3 and wma , it doesnt take mp3's at a low bit rate, only wma, but i dont like using mp3 players at low bit rates, and with a 2GB expansion SD card being cheap, you can 192 the songs and still fit tonnes. -tl On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:21:41 -0400 Pavel Zaitsev wrote: > > > Thanks to all for the pointers, it really gave me a good idea what to > > look for. I found a couple of players at Staples which play MP3 and Ogg > > (iRiver and Samsung), so that's probably the way I'll go. > > Don't get iriver, since they have fallen to dark side not only legally > but technically too. Their new players aren't supported even by old > iriver software. And supplied package comes only for windows. > From reviews Samsung memory stick may well be the bargain. If you want > to go for sound quality i'd recommend shuffle. I read some very > technical reviews, specifying that shuffle is best of the ipods in terms > of sound quality, better then any their other offerings. > Cheers, > Pavel > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 09:12:52 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:12:52 -0400 Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413051252.7c09dd46.tleslie@tcn.net> Many years ago i went and stripped my binaries, killed X, something in X required atleast one of its files to be non-stripped, i just restored the /usr/X11R6 and it gave me my graphics back. I stripped everything else on the system fine however. Doesn't pay to get to picky with space savings, i just bought two 500GB hardrives for 340$ each, this shit just keeps coming down in price. I take 20GB drives out of servers, and smash them to distroy the data on them, thats a whole lot cheaper then formatting them (truely format them to clean them) and try and peddle them for 3$ each. I am sure some of the refurb shops must have used 20GB HD's for 5$ a peice, if that? -tl On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications > > Binaries (and thus libraries) tend to compress poorly. I'd say you have > little to gain from doing this. > > I bought a 300GB drive in a combined firewire/usb2 enclosure for about > $240 (incl tax) the day before yesterday. > > IMHO the solutions to this problem are: > > a) Increasing drive capacity > > b) Improved data management > > c) Both a and b. > > > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. > > Feel free to strip your binaries if they are not already. No problem > there if you don't want debugging output. The savings still won't be > huge. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 > Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 09:21:45 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:21:45 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: <443D69A8.3070906@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/12/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> I wonder if you meant to say "instead of being a fatal blow?" I should >> think that in this case, unsuspecting users would be an *asset* in >> striking the fatal blow at a pay-per-message scheme. > > Jamon, Christopher, > > I would prefer a bond-based system by far: a system where there's only > a charge if the recipient clicks the "This is spam" button. A Hmm, there is a point to this. Charge up front anyway and if there is *no* 'spam' feedback credit the sender account for the amount charged ? After a while there should be a floating sum in each account, that covers mail cost per billing period. That sum would be zero for all non-commercial accounts which do not send spam. So commercial spam would cost the sender money and normal mail would not. Moreover, spammers would have feedback as to what 'goes' and what does not. Then, one could implement nonlinear pricing for mass spam, e.g. a spam would cost as little as a postage stamp, but 10,000 per week returned as spam would up the price to 50c/mail (the ISP makes $5000 cash per spammer account per week), 20,000 for $1/mail etc. Sounds good so far, no ? I mean, if there is no negative feedback built into the system, it will run away. So far, the positive feedback is the revenue from spam, and it is not countered by anything. The negative feedback being built now must balance this, or it will be useless. If Internet stories are true, then one can 'buy' into a botnet for $25 per thousand of zombies. If returns are what is also mentioned on the net, then $25 buys the real advertiser $50 to $250 in business. So to quench this, the cost of running 1000 zombies must be made to exceed $250, or $0.25 per zombie. Since each zombie could send thousands of emails until caught, putting a price as small as 1 cent per email returned as spam should drive the cost of spamming through the roof, first by making small but significant charges at zombied computer operators appear, who would likely prefer to spend the spam tax on antivirus programs and proper setup. Effectively there would be a computer mismanagement charge for people who do not secure their machines and leave them open to attack, amounting to $10 or more per month per machine (assuming 10,000 emails returned as spam at 1 cent each per month). This would prod 'innocent ignorers' into action. Of course it would do nothing for real spammers, but they would have to start buying serious bandwidth since zombies should start being scarce after a while. $0.01 Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 09:23:07 2006 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 06:23:07 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried many strategies to free up some space on my numerous systems. In particular, I tried a) compression of infrequently used files b) removing rarely used files c) locate and eliminate duplicates d) delete older versions of same files (e.g., backup versions) e) increase drive capacity (purchase a drive) In fact, I spent years doing a-d, and finally came to the conclusion that e is the cheapest if your time has any value at all. Like Robert said, the savings gained in method a to d are usually insignificant and are not worth the effort. Drives are way cheaper that what they used to be (and their life-expectancy is proportionally less) that you can just buy a larger drive every once in a while (e.g., every year or 2 years, depending on your needs). Numerical example: 200GB internal HDD is about $100. 5 hours of data management is likely to get you a few 100MB's on an 40GB drive (based on own experience). f) write files to DVDs. DVDs are under $0.25/each these days, but again, with a short life expectancy. Write your files to 2 DVDs, that's about $0.50 per ~4GB. Cheaper than spending $100 if all you need is a few GBs. In fact, DVDs are cheaper than HDDs per GB (even when you write data on 2 DVDs) but are less convenient. And since most of the data that takes a lot of space typically doesn't change (movies, music, images, compressed programs), you don't care in these cases that data on DVDs is static. BTW, if you don't have a DVD writer, internal ones are under $50 these days. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications > > Binaries (and thus libraries) tend to compress poorly. I'd say you have > little to gain from doing this. > > I bought a 300GB drive in a combined firewire/usb2 enclosure for about > $240 (incl tax) the day before yesterday. > > IMHO the solutions to this problem are: > > a) Increasing drive capacity > > b) Improved data management > > c) Both a and b. > > > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. > > Feel free to strip your binaries if they are not already. No problem > there if you don't want debugging output. The savings still won't be > huge. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 > Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 09:32:47 2006 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 06:32:47 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Invitation to Present at CEOS'06 Message-ID: Dear TLUGers: I would like to invite you to give a talk, present a poster, or a demo at the upcoming Conference on Engaging in Open Source (CEOS'06). Last year was the first CEOS and it was a huge success. This year we are focusing on contributions from the FOSS community. Full details are on the CEOS web site at: http://ceos.dal-acm.ca Key items are reproduced here. Topics: Pretty much anything related to FOSS Important Dates: * Deadline for Submission of Papers, Posters and Demos: 28 April 2006 * Notification of Acceptance: 05 May 2006 * Deadline for Camera-ready Submissions: 12 May 2006 * Early Registration Discount Ends: 05 May 2006 * Online Registration Deadline: 25 May 2006 * Conference: 1-2 June 2006 Papers will be screened by the steering committee for quality and relevance, but will not be peer-reviewed. Have you done anything interesting with FOSS in the past 12 month (or more) and you think that others may benefit from your experience? Send us a couple pages with your preference to give a talk, poster, and/or demo. We also have sponsorship opportunities of various levels available if your company is interested in supporting the event. Question? Comments? Not sure? Send us an email! ceos-ULEjM0V0dPWw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Looking forward to your participation, Tony Abou-Assaleh CEOS'06 Co-Chair ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 13:11:22 2006 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 09:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Inverting Linux Screen Display Message-ID: <28651.209.161.207.36.1144933882.squirrel@209.161.207.36> I'm going to be installing a linux workstation in my kitchen (so my wife can access her database of recipes). In order to save space, I figure I'll mount an LCD screen under the cupboards so that it can be folded up and out of the way when not in use. The main problem with this idea is that the screen will have to be mounted upside down. Does anyone know and easy way to invert the screen display? I'll likely be using gnome. (If that helps.) Thanks. Stephen -- Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 33A King Street West Dundas, ON L9H 1T5 CANADA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 14:35:06 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:35:06 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) Message-ID: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Peter : > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jason Spiro wrote: > > > On 4/12/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> I wonder if you meant to say "instead of being a fatal blow?" I should > >> think that in this case, unsuspecting users would be an *asset* in > >> striking the fatal blow at a pay-per-message scheme. > > > > Jamon, Christopher, > > > > I would prefer a bond-based system by far: a system where there's only > > a charge if the recipient clicks the "This is spam" button. A > > Hmm, there is a point to this. Charge up front anyway and if there is > *no* 'spam' feedback credit the sender account for the amount charged ? > After a while there should be a floating sum in each account, that > covers mail cost per billing period. That sum would be zero for all > non-commercial accounts which do not send spam. So commercial spam would > cost the sender money and normal mail would not. Moreover, spammers > would have feedback as to what 'goes' and what does not. Then, one could > implement nonlinear pricing for mass spam, e.g. a spam would cost as > little as a postage stamp, but 10,000 per week returned as spam would up > the price to 50c/mail (the ISP makes $5000 cash per spammer account per > week), 20,000 for $1/mail etc. Sounds good so far, no ? > > I mean, if there is no negative feedback built into the system, it will > run away. So far, the positive feedback is the revenue from spam, and it > is not countered by anything. The negative feedback being built now must > balance this, or it will be useless. If Internet stories are true, then > one can 'buy' into a botnet for $25 per thousand of zombies. If returns > are what is also mentioned on the net, then $25 buys the real advertiser > $50 to $250 in business. So to quench this, the cost of running 1000 > zombies must be made to exceed $250, or $0.25 per zombie. Since each > zombie could send thousands of emails until caught, putting a price as > small as 1 cent per email returned as spam should drive the cost of > spamming through the roof, first by making small but significant charges > at zombied computer operators appear, who would likely prefer to spend > the spam tax on antivirus programs and proper setup. > > Effectively there would be a computer mismanagement charge for people > who do not secure their machines and leave them open to attack, > amounting to $10 or more per month per machine (assuming 10,000 emails > returned as spam at 1 cent each per month). This would prod 'innocent > ignorers' into action. Of course it would do nothing for real spammers, > but they would have to start buying serious bandwidth since zombies > should start being scarce after a while. > > $0.01 > Peter Let me start by saying that I haven't been actively following this thread so I may be very misinformed, but you're last paragraph really struct a chord with me, particularly this sentence: "This would prod 'innocent ignorers' into action." Now, I don't know if you are talking about charging business servers, who should be taking appropriate action to ensure they're not part of the problem or actual home users (Mom and Pop), but I'm under the impression that it is the latter. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I can just imagine the outrage of people who are already frustrated by computers having to pay an additional charge to be on the internet when, I think, a lot of these people are on the internet only because they feel they have to be. They are already upset about paying for something they don't fully understand. Again, I may have misinterpreted this thread and I did get lost trying to follow the outline of your plan, so correct me if I have made a mistake here. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 15:28:04 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: <20060413051252.7c09dd46.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20060413051252.7c09dd46.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, ted leslie wrote: > > Many years ago i went and stripped my binaries, > killed X, > something in X required atleast one of its files to be non-stripped, > i just restored the /usr/X11R6 and it gave me my graphics back. > I stripped everything else on the system fine however. Oh that should so not happen. Sounds like a bug in the linker. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 15:37:32 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:37:32 -0500 Subject: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Classifieds In-Reply-To: <200604121937.34208.leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200604121937.34208.leah@frauerpower.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604130837v7782735fpe7b6b0f04abc0c07@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Leah Cunningham wrote: > So, I created an area on the > wiki called http://gtalug.org/wiki/Classifieds where folks can post stuff > like this. I've enabled sub-pages. Now one can very easily create a new page as a branch off of the classifieds page. * Edit the classifieds page http://gtalug.org/index.php?title=Classifieds&action=edit * Go to the appropriate section and add a link [[/like this]] .. name it something nice like [[/akme inc hiring senior wigit developer]] * Save the page, visit your link.. add your content and save. Making pages this way makes sure they don't get lost in the madness that is the wiki *cough* "cms". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 15:40:54 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:40:54 -0400 Subject: Disk space by filetype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413154054.GC4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 07:11:47PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote: > I often seem to fill up my hard drive to the max. > > I have been wondering if it is practical to write a script to use UPX > to pack the binaries and shared libraries of seldom-used applications > (those whose last access time is long ago.) Or perhaps even strip > them, though that makes GDB backtraces upon crashes quite useless. Debian binaries (except -dbg/-dev files) are already stripped by policy. > But first, I wonder: Is there an easy way for me find out what > proportion of my disk is made of what sorts of files? du -shx /usr/* /var/* /lib /root /home/* That should give you a pretty good idea where the space is going. /home, /usr/src and /usr/local are quite common, as is some places in /var. Do you ever run apt-get clean, to wipe out the download cache of packages? They can get pretty big if never cleaned out. > This would allow me to answer such questions as: What proportion of my > disk do binaries and libraries take up anyway? Text files? (For > example, my /var/lib/dpkg/info directory takes up 28MB. Nothing there > is compressed. Makes you wonder if whole-disk compressed file systems > are worth it...) Could I have hundreds of megabytes of .o files left > over from compiling things? The stuff in /var/lib/dpkg is uncompressed since it runs scripts from there, and the other stuff in /var/lib/dpkg is uncompressed because it would be awful slow if it wasn't, and most people can spare 50 or 100M of disk space these days without a second thought. > I'm sure I could hack something up in perl, but if there was a nice > graphical tool it'd be even better. I couldn't find anything in > Debian's apt repository or on freshmeat. xdiskusage and kdirstat do > not do this measurement. gdmap colorizes by filetype but does not have > the summary reporting functionality I am looking for. Go buy a new harddrive. They are very cheap. 250GB drives are like $110 now. Everytime you do an upgrade, all your upx work would go to waste. If you run out of space, either uninstall programs you don't use (you are likely to have some), remove files you don't use (I know I have plenty of those around), and/or get another bigger drive. I use the last option. It is very efficient and saves time and frustration. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 15:43:37 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:43:37 -0400 Subject: Inverting Linux Screen Display In-Reply-To: <28651.209.161.207.36.1144933882.squirrel-ctOtsPOrP6A3X41L6F08GA@public.gmane.org> References: <28651.209.161.207.36.1144933882.squirrel@209.161.207.36> Message-ID: <20060413154337.GD4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 09:11:22AM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > I'm going to be installing a linux workstation in my kitchen (so my wife > can access her database of recipes). In order to save space, I figure I'll > mount an LCD screen under the cupboards so that it can be folded up and > out of the way when not in use. The main problem with this idea is that > the screen will have to be mounted upside down. Does anyone know and easy > way to invert the screen display? I'll likely be using gnome. (If that > helps.) Some X drivers support xrandr extension, which allows you to rotate the display with the xrandr utility. You can also rotate some in the config file (I think nvidia support that option, but not xrandr, at least not on my card). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 16:08:47 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: Inverting Linux Screen Display In-Reply-To: <20060413154337.GD4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <28651.209.161.207.36.1144933882.squirrel@209.161.207.36> <20060413154337.GD4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <443E778F.7060808@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 09:11:22AM -0400, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> I'm going to be installing a linux workstation in my kitchen (so my wife >> can access her database of recipes). In order to save space, I figure I'll >> mount an LCD screen under the cupboards so that it can be folded up and >> out of the way when not in use. The main problem with this idea is that >> the screen will have to be mounted upside down. Does anyone know and easy >> way to invert the screen display? I'll likely be using gnome. (If that >> helps.) > > Some X drivers support xrandr extension, which allows you to rotate the > display with the xrandr utility. You can also rotate some in the config > file (I think nvidia support that option, but not xrandr, at least not > on my card). Not especially helpful, but KDE does rotation -- you have to figure that if you can do it in 4 clicks with KDE, there is an option in gnome somewhere (gconf-editor perhaps?) to do it in two. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 17:50:11 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Button List Message-ID: <20060413175011.38089.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> One of the goodies we are doing for the Linux World Canada Show will be to have 2.25" round metal buttons with the GTALug logo (created by Leah Cunningham) and a person's name superimposed over that. Anyone on this mailing list who plans to be at the Linux World Canada show can have one of these buttons (well, the first 100 such people anyway, as that is how many parts I have to make these buttons). Below you will see my current button list, if your not on the list and would like to have a button let me know ASAP (you will see everyone who has volunteered to help in the booth is on the list). Further, if your name is not listed the way you would like it on the button again let me know ASAP (you will see that Allan Rocker and Don Ramajan have both noted they wanted something different from first/last name). I would suggest that people with long names think about doing something to shorten what is is on the button as the long names will force me to go to small (harder to read) font sizes .... but you guys get the final call on how you want to be presented... - Current button list: 1. Allan 2. Daniel Armstrong 3. Christopher Browne 4. Meng Cheah 5. Gordon Chillcott 6. Teresa Chin 7. Leah Cunningham 8. Seneca Cunningham 9. don-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org 10. Scott Elcomb 11. Behdad Esfahbod 12. Ivan Frey 13. Christopher Friedt 14. Andrew Hammond 15. Colin McGregor 16. Geoff Mitchell 17. Teddy Mills 18. David J. Patrick 19. Paul Mora 20. Jeffrey Pikul 21. Herb Richter 22. Jason Shein 23. Drew Sullivan 24. Bill Thanis 25. Amos Weatherill 26. Pavel Zaitsev Allan = Allan Rocker don-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org = Don Ramajan Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 17:54:20 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:54:20 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Effectively there would be a computer mismanagement charge for people >> who do not secure their machines and leave them open to attack, >> amounting to $10 or more per month per machine (assuming 10,000 emails >> returned as spam at 1 cent each per month). This would prod 'innocent >> ignorers' into action. Of course it would do nothing for real spammers, >> but they would have to start buying serious bandwidth since zombies >> should start being scarce after a while. >> >> $0.01 >> Peter > > Let me start by saying that I haven't been actively following this thread so I > may be very misinformed, but you're last paragraph really struct a chord with > me, particularly this sentence: "This would prod 'innocent ignorers' into > action." Now, I don't know if you are talking about charging business servers, > who should be taking appropriate action to ensure they're not part of the > problem or actual home users (Mom and Pop), but I'm under the impression that > it is the latter. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I can just imagine the outrage of > people who are already frustrated by computers having to pay an additional > charge to be on the internet when, I think, a lot of these people are on the > internet only because they feel they have to be. They are already upset about > paying for something they don't fully understand. They will pay for it exactly the way they pay for 'author rights' when buying media intended for backing up computers and exactly how they pay for gas taxes which are unexplainably high etc. I do not have a plan but I have a pretty good spam filter and I have the same email address since at least 1996, and published on my website too (since then). So I know exactly how much spam increased or decreased in the last ten years. We are at the point where spam is mandatory to justify ISP bandwidth, whereas email is optional. As far as I am concerned, this could go on forever. However, since it's legal to send spam and it costs nothing, I think that it should be every network user's patriotic duty to send at least 10,000 random emails per month, to random addresses or even unknown people, with wishes of good health, and politics, and cookie recipes. I would even offer to write such a program, which would send fortune cookies and sell nothing whatsoever, to random addresses. Let's see who is going to whine about bandwidth *then*. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 18:01:41 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:01:41 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: > Let me start by saying that I haven't been actively following this thread so I > may be very misinformed, but you're last paragraph really struct a chord with > me, particularly this sentence: "This would prod 'innocent ignorers' into > action." Now, I don't know if you are talking about charging business servers, > who should be taking appropriate action to ensure they're not part of the > problem or actual home users (Mom and Pop), but I'm under the impression that > it is the latter. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I can just imagine the outrage of > people who are already frustrated by computers having to pay an additional > charge to be on the internet when, I think, a lot of these people are on the > internet only because they feel they have to be. They are already upset about > paying for something they don't fully understand. Anybody who sends email that gets returned as spam, beyond a certain small quota that takes care of temporary misconfigurations, should be charged in escrow, by his own ISP. If the email is not returned as spam, say within a week, the fee is waived. Mailing lists request and receive special permission. Anybody who sends spam using that ISP pays through the nose. Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused. The ISPs will be only too glad to oblige. Any spammer on their network would be charged to the tune of $20,000 per month. This would be good, because other ISPs who would receive the spam could sue them, and they would need the money for legal costs... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 18:29:51 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:29:51 -0500 Subject: chording keyboards (wasLets all use the IRC channel for once) In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604111315y6410d5b0s8f6f034d6c3bd5d5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4439C019.3000806@utoronto.ca> <20060411051005.GD24627@waltdnes.org> <20060411141518.GX4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0604111315y6410d5b0s8f6f034d6c3bd5d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604131129m2f2d03b2r7882ac5052add2ee@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I didn't though. Instead, I learned just how much typing one can > really do with only 4 fingers and a thumb. I was exposed to typing courses and I immediately recognized how capable I was with just using intuition and reflexes to type. Like all education back then, I could do everything better on my own rather than face the stupidity of the education system. I started out typing with my index fingers, and a thumb for the space bar. Then I used two fingers and that's about where I've evolved to. I'll occasionally use my ring fingers when typing words which have letters which are close to oneanother on the keyboard. This lets me thrum my fingers across the keyboard in wierd ways. For the control-key I only ever use the left-hand key. I use it one of two ways. I'll fold my pinky finger under my hand and use the end-knuckle or I'll use the left-size of my palm near my pinky. I fold my left thumb under my hand to use the left alt key. I was clocked by an employment agency at 130 wpm while typing this way. I think that's a load of crap, but I still type quite fast and with surprising accuracy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 18:53:25 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Volunteer List / Information Message-ID: <20060413185325.60836.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have been actively attempting to over staff the GTALug booth with volunteers for the Linux World Canada show. The idea being that we have 2-3 people in the booth at any given time and MOST of the volunteers are free to look in at the other booths and take in the event. I think we are now more that covered in this area, still if you really want to help let me know and I will slot you in somewhere :-) . Below you will see who I currently have listed for booth volunteers. Further down below you will see a DRAFT briefing for those who will be staffing the booth (if you see a problem with the briefing (beyond the info. I don't yet have, like some details on May meetings) let me know and I will see what can be done...). My current plan is to send in the "final" exhibitor list next Wednesday, April 19th. - Current "Exhibitor" list: 1. Armstrong, Daniel 2. Cheah, Meng 3. Chillcott, Gordon 4. Chin, Teresa 5. Cunningham, Leah 6. Cunningham, Seneca 7. Esfahbod, Behdad 8. Frey, Ivan 9. Christopher Friedt 10. Hammond, Andrew 11. McGregor, Colin 12. Mills, Teddy 13. Patrick, David J. 14. Pikul, Jeffrey 15. Rambajan, Don 16. Richter, Herb 17. Rocker, Allan 18. Sullivan, Drew 19. Thanis, Bill 20. Weatherill, Amos 21. Zaitsev, Pavel -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Booth Volunteer Briefing Draft April 13th, 2006: Thank you, for volunteering to help staff the GTALug booth at the Linux World Canada show. We do want to have some fun with this event but there some things that we do need to keep in mind: Dress code: Business casual is the rule here, if it would be appropriate for a relaxed but professional IT department it should be fine here. This does mean that things like ratty T-Shirts are OUT. Business: Under our agreement with Plum Communications our booth can only be used for is the promotion of GTALug, we can NOT conduct other business in/by the booth. If someone wants to talk about things that might involve another business relationship, invite the person for a cup coffee and AWAY from the booth. There is a food court with several restaurants across the street, under Simcoe Park Badges: Under Plum Communications rules an exhibitor can not enter another exhibitor?s booth except by invitation. So, to see the other the booths, arrange for a second non-exhibitor badge (a regular (free) show badge, a press badge or ). Sleep, food, and hygiene: We will be going with a 6-2-1 rule for all volunteers, namely everyone is required to get at least 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep, at least 2 solid meals, and at least 1 shower/bath per 24 hours. If it appears that a volunteer in the GTALug booth has not meet the 6-2-1 rule they will be asked to leave until they do meet those minimums. NewTLUG: The April meeting will be at the show, room 201D Tuesday, 7 PM with the topic being a distribution comparison. The speakers will be: Debian & Knoppix - Colin McGregor Fedora Core - Paul Mora Mandriva - Evan Leibovitch MEPIS and PCLOS - Geoff Mitchell Ubuntu ? David Patrick Booth stuff: There is no electrical power in the booth. We have made arrangements to get some snacks for booth volunteers, and have a conditional exemption from the convention centre to bring in outside food that can be offered in the booth. If there is something you really want to snack on at the booth let Colin know ASAP. All snack foods must be in individually wrapped, bite size servings, and be nut free. Free stuff (?swag?): For booth volunteers there is some snack food. For GTALug people we will have some 2.25? pin back badges with GTALug logo & names printed on them. For everyone we have some Ubuntu install CDs for i386, Mac and AMD64 to hand out. Next meetings: TLUG: May 9th, 7:30 PM, University of Toronto, NewTLUG: May 23rd, 7:00 PM WestTLug: May 2nd, Sheridan, 1430 Trafalgar Road, Oakville, ON Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 19:43:42 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:43:42 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Peter : > Anybody who sends email that gets returned as spam, beyond a certain > small quota that takes care of temporary misconfigurations, should be > charged in escrow, by his own ISP. If the email is not returned as spam, > say within a week, the fee is waived. Mailing lists request and receive > special permission. Anybody who sends spam using that ISP pays through > the nose. Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the > alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the > computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused. > The ISPs will be only too glad to oblige. Any spammer on their network > would be charged to the tune of $20,000 per month. This would be good, > because other ISPs who would receive the spam could sue them, and they > would need the money for legal costs... > > Peter "Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused." This is absolutely what I don't believe can happen. I guess that's just how I see it and will drag my feet the whole way should anyone decide to implement this system. Second, how are the ISPs going to separate the mailing lists from the spammers? I'm thinking the measures they would need to take would just be too great and time consuming to be worthwhile. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 20:53:30 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:53:30 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? Message-ID: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Hi all, Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any experience/recommendations? Thanks all! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 20:58:19 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:58:19 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Quoting Peter : > >> Anybody who sends email that gets returned as spam, beyond a certain >> small quota that takes care of temporary misconfigurations, should be >> charged in escrow, by his own ISP. If the email is not returned as spam, >> say within a week, the fee is waived. Mailing lists request and receive >> special permission. Anybody who sends spam using that ISP pays through >> the nose. Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the >> alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the >> computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused. >> The ISPs will be only too glad to oblige. Any spammer on their network >> would be charged to the tune of $20,000 per month. This would be good, >> because other ISPs who would receive the spam could sue them, and they >> would need the money for legal costs... >> >> Peter > > "Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the alternative of > terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the computer and maybe paying > a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused." > > This is absolutely what I don't believe can happen. I guess that's just how I > see it and will drag my feet the whole way should anyone decide to implement > this system. You have the right to oppose it, but judging from the track record of opposition, it will result in two parallel tracks on the ground, left by your heels ;-) Of course, I wish you good luck. Maybe you are right, and I am wrong, but I feel that something must be done. > Second, how are the ISPs going to separate the mailing lists from the spammers? > I'm thinking the measures they would need to take would just be too great and > time consuming to be worthwhile. No, there are few mailing lists per originating host. Each mailing list admin asks the host admin for permission to run said list. This is willingly granted and the host admin simply sets the 'allowed' spam (actually 5xx response) quota for that account very high (to be able to cope with the usual chaff that occurs when running mailing lists and clients unsubscribe without telling etc). The spam quota can be implemented by something as simple as a mail filter that totalizes 5xx responses and keeps message ids per user for a week (to validate incoming 5xxs which may be bogus). Once a month the 5xxs count per user is turned into billing information. That's it. One could set alarms per sequence (many 5xxs one after the other), per quantity, etc. In certain countries the ISPs are already obliged to do this by law (not to keep just the ids, but also the messages). Then, later, ISPs could start charging each other by 5xxs caused. E.g. if ISP A sends mail to B causing say >10,000 5xxs per month .and. this is more than, say, 10% of their mutual traffic then it makes sense for B to 'sue' A (through some sort of arbiter that does not yet exist), to recover the cost of the 'damage' (in fact B has real costs because this is real bandwidth B pays for - if this traffic would not exist then B could save money by downgrading a broadband link, for example). Some sort of 'standard' mutual contract could be established by the arbiter body that would govern the percentage and the numbers and other issues, by size, type, etc. The teeth of the arbiter body would consist in its ability to recommend participating hosts to ban all traffic from/to A if A does not comply within a set time. Nobody would be obliged to do anything, *but* most hosts have an interest to do so since they now have proof that they are losing money (by buying bandwidth) to accomodate proven spam from A, and could 'sue' too if having proof (5xxed messages from A). A would voluntarily implement the spam quota and tariff to its users because of liability. If A is ever caught out spamming, and has no money to settle the damage, it can become deleted by being vetoed by enough hosts, following the arbiter's recommendation. After a few furious exchanges there should exist a sort of equilibrium where email continues to be free, mailing lists enjoy a special regime (i.e. more leeway from ISPs and hosts when they bounce lots of messages occasionally), and spammers pay for what they send. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 21:07:28 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:07:28 +0000 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EBA4A.1060302-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/06, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces > MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help > me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any > experience/recommendations? Borland Paradox was traditionally an answer; Lotus Approach has also been popular. Building something like this tends to be insufficiently "personally rewarding" in and of itself for this sort of thing to be available for free. Not with the prices of Windows tools... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 21:14:14 2006 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:14:14 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EBA4A.1060302-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <75EF6E03-CB32-11DA-97B5-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Apr 13, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that > replaces > MS Access? In one sense, there are lots...database products that are much better than Access, but they require quite a bit more effort to configure, convert, and program. Are you looking for something to interact with directly (i.e. creating tables, forms, and reports) or something to act as a backend to a pre-built application? Then there's the BASE component of OO.org 2.0, which I haven't played with (but *really* should) and it sounds more targeted to the level of user that would be inclined toward Access. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 21:28:57 2006 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:28:57 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EBA4A.1060302-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <17c359fc0604131428s6d78db39o8992e352bdcfbc64@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces > MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help > me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any > experience/recommendations? > > Thanks all! > > Madison I may get laughed at for this but I like MySQL and phpMyAdmin for a quick hack of a database. You can grab both in one easy package with XAMPP: http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html . It's sweet. -Leigh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 13 23:46:39 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:46:39 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EBA4A.1060302-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <443EE2DF.7090706@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces > MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help > me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any > experience/recommendations? OpenOffice includes a database app, but I have no idea how it compares to Access. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 00:44:35 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:44:35 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: ; from paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w@public.gmane.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:31:55PM -0400 References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060413204435.A7259@diamond.ss.org> > > When I write software for my own use, I put in enough features to satisfy > my needs (or the most critical ones), I hack up a user interface that works > well enough for me, and I document that stuff that isn't totally obvious to > me or that I think that I'll forget. I generally keep such software to > myself, by some end up in wider circulation. In these cases, I don't care > whether anyone else wants something done better -- if they do, they are at > liberty to do it. If they give me money, I'll do it. If they complain to > me, I put them in my kill-file and never hear from them again. I do take bug reports. I may decide after the bug is reported it is working as designed or not reproducable, or Its a limitation not a bug. If they persist then they fall into the killfile. > > This sort of software isn't pretty, because it answers a need that *I* > have. However, other people have often found it useful, and in some cases > have built on my basic work to produce some quite full-featured products. > Bully for them! In one or two cases, I have even used their versions > rather than my own, although I usually use my own. > I prefer that they submit the changes for incorporation into the next version. > When I find someone else's software that does most of what I want, I may > ask them for some advice, or for explanations about why they did things in > some specific ways, but if I want it to work differently, the onus is on > *ME* to change it, not them. Sometimes I pick up the remnants of dead > projects and resurrect them enough to fit my needs. > > You gets what you pays for. > That is my attitude. And also my attidue is that linux requires a bit of sweat equity. If you don't want to invest that sweat equity don't use linux. If you are paid to use linux then stop complaining and learn how to use linux. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 00:50:58 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:50:58 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <20060407173306.GO4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>; from lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org on Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:33:06PM -0400 References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060413205058.B7259@diamond.ss.org> So PHP, Java, are just hitting puberty, Ruby has its hormones raging, Python is now an obnoxious teenager, Perl just hit adulthood and is confused, and tcl is pushing middle age and is complaining about its back and knees going. Of course Fortran is looking to retire, but can't convince anyone to let it. Bill On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:33:06PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:03:45PM -0400, Sy Ali wrote: > > > Minor point, but Perl has been around for longer than I care to admit > > > knowing about. Certainly much longer than relative newcomers like Ruby, > > > PHP, python or even TCL. > > > > Ruby is a lot older than you realise. =) > > Looks to me like: > PHP: 1995 > Java: 1995 > Ruby: 1993 > Python: 1991 > Perl: 1987 > TCL: 1968 (hardly a newcomer) > > I think TCL is the one I most object to be considered a newcomer, at > least compared to perl. :) > > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 01:57:37 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:57:37 -0400 Subject: 85% languages (was Re:Linux fat/bloated) In-Reply-To: <20060413205058.B7259-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060405061100.GA7763@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604052028p6670add9nc5af996e85f6d5a6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604061603s3cf86965hfccaa4a04f063f9a@mail.gmail.com> <20060407173306.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060413205058.B7259@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <1e55af990604131857r415e4a2eib860da1e27e17d9a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > So PHP, Java, are just hitting puberty, Ruby has its hormones raging, Python is now an obnoxious teenager, Perl just hit adulthood and is confused, and tcl is pushing middle age and is complaining about its back and knees going. > > Of course Fortran is looking to retire, but can't convince anyone to let it. They're all from different cultures and with different abilities. Some seem to be old hands with some things but are also old dogs with other things. Some are caught up with teen/tween fads and hype. Like Ruby + Rails + Ajax and "I have a book out, I have a book out!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 02:49:10 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:49:10 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? Message-ID: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> Would there be any interest/use in a howto section on gtalug.org? I've been fiddling with gmail and exim4 today and finally got it (sort of) working. There are lots of other howtos for this (and postfix/sendmail/gmail) out there, but none are really comprehensive i.e. going over mailsever basics and such too. Just wondering if people of all skill levels would be willing to contribute to any howto? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 03:37:19 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:37:19 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? In-Reply-To: <443F0DA6.8050809-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Would there be any interest/use in a howto section on gtalug.org? I've > been fiddling with gmail and exim4 today and finally got it (sort of) > working. There are lots of other howtos for this (and > postfix/sendmail/gmail) out there, but none are really comprehensive > i.e. going over mailsever basics and such too. Just wondering if people > of all skill levels would be willing to contribute to any howto? In a similar vein, would there be any interest in setting up a news aggregator to bring together the feeds of GTALUG members... sort of along the lines of "Planet Debian" - http://planet.debian.net/ - maybe a "Planet GTALUG"? That way, we could pool together our linux adventures and write our HOWTOs in the tool of our choice - blogs, wikis, whatever can provide a feed - and provide a single combined feed that we could subscribe. This might prove a nice complement to a HOWTO wiki page. -- Daniel W. Armstrong :: friendly freaks of nature www.biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 03:42:11 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:42:11 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443F1A13.6030905@utoronto.ca> Daniel Armstrong wrote: > On 4/13/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Would there be any interest/use in a howto section on gtalug.org? I've >> been fiddling with gmail and exim4 today and finally got it (sort of) >> working. There are lots of other howtos for this (and >> postfix/sendmail/gmail) out there, but none are really comprehensive >> i.e. going over mailsever basics and such too. Just wondering if people >> of all skill levels would be willing to contribute to any howto? > > In a similar vein, would there be any interest in setting up a news > aggregator to bring together the feeds of GTALUG members... sort of > along the lines of "Planet Debian" - http://planet.debian.net/ - maybe > a "Planet GTALUG"? > > That way, we could pool together our linux adventures and write our > HOWTOs in the tool of our choice - blogs, wikis, whatever can provide > a feed - and provide a single combined feed that we could subscribe. > This might prove a nice complement to a HOWTO wiki page. That's a great idea. surely someone would like to showoff their perl hackery skills and create an rss scraper? Perhaps PHP then? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 03:49:26 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:49:26 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> I notice that the GTALUG website uses the GNU FDL for "copyleft" protection. I just started a blog and use the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ - which, to my reading, basically mirrors the terms the GPL offers for software, i.e. the freedom to modify, the freedom to use for whatever purpose, the requirement to share any changes under the same license terms, the requirement for attribution. Does anyone have any experience to share in creating non-software projects like documentation or media projects such as podcasts in which they use a open source license such as the GNU FDL or a Creative Commons license, and why they chose one over the other? - Daniel W. Armstrong :: friendly freaks of nature www.biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 04:31:04 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:31:04 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? In-Reply-To: <443F0DA6.8050809-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1e55af990604132131k1ccd6c02s8c556df7fe0bd86d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Would there be any interest/use in a howto section on gtalug.org? I've > been fiddling with gmail and exim4 today and finally got it (sort of) > working. There are lots of other howtos for this (and > postfix/sendmail/gmail) out there, but none are really comprehensive > i.e. going over mailsever basics and such too. Just wondering if people > of all skill levels would be willing to contribute to any howto? The short answer is "go ahead!". ---- The long answer is.. If there's a better place to put such HOWTOs which the local and global communities could better find and use, then "in theory" it ought to be found. However, theory is too slow and the gtalug wiki is right here and right now.. and for convenience's sake it's great that it gets used. There are two ways to go about this. The easy way is to just create sub-pages from your own user page. So for me, I would go to [[User:Sy]] and edit the page, creating [[/gmail and exim4]]. Following this link I could create my notes. The searchability of the wiki would let this stuff be found relatively easily. This system allows any user to create whatever notes they'd like. I'm neither concerned about space or bandwidth, unless someone's HOWTO suddenly explodes in popularity. However, this fast-and-loose method doesn't make things particularly organised. Some would say that wiki's aren't meant to organize content, but people like me are nuts enough to do it anyways. This leads us to the second method. The second method is to try to create some sort of organized HOWTOs section on the wiki. Organizing a wiki is like herding cats. I find it both to be great fun but others might not. This organized section would have to be shaped and re-shaped as new materials come in.. so that things can stay attractive and navigable. I'm all for helping out. I myself write all kinds of notes on everything I ever touch. I like that I can easily find my notes later and re-use the effort. Just make sure you record dates / version numbers for everything, and when notes become obsolete don't delete / overwrite them but set them aside for historical purposes. Not that my old NeoPlanet notes would do anyone any good.. but you never know. ;) So to sum it up.. it's perfectly ok use the wiki like your own personal stomping ground. Just create sub-pages from your own personal pages. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 04:35:25 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:25 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604132135n7918c1e6u631c8d43a3745d90@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > In a similar vein, would there be any interest in setting up a news > aggregator to bring together the feeds of GTALUG members... sort of > along the lines of "Planet Debian" - http://planet.debian.net/ - maybe > a "Planet GTALUG"? At some point there was some discussion on having a joined calendar for all the events for ontario user groups. It's this "joining of forces" which is one of the more effective tools we have. A combined news feed would certainly go far towards bringing everyone together. Maybe more than one feed would be cool: * The primary is usergroup and high-priority issues. Community stuff. * Another could include industry news and the like. * Another could be topical articles, discussions etc. * Yet another could be interesting off-topic stuff like cool new toys, jokes and articles. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 04:45:13 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:45:13 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604132145h53338f16y5c1e1c546eb872bb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > Does anyone have any experience to share in creating non-software > projects like documentation or media projects such as podcasts in > which they use a open source license such as the GNU FDL or a Creative > Commons license, and why they chose one over the other? I use the attribution sharealike creative commons license because I find it very straightforward to understand. So all the blogging, articles and notes on my wiki [1] and whatever projects I end up tinkering with get released pretty openly I basically don't care what gets done with my stuff as long as I get a nod, and that's only so that the end-user isn't mislead as to the origins of a work (i.e. I don't care about ego or fame). And so because I don't particularly care, I went for the more accessible license which I could easily understand. I was also lazy and didn't want to persue Gnu stuff because there's a lot of politics and anger over there, which I don't want to associate with. [1] http://jrandomhacker.info -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 04:47:46 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:47:46 -0400 Subject: MP3 Players In-Reply-To: <20060413050140.79222cd0.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <4403BB56.5020103@sympatico.ca> <4405999B.3060909@georgetown.wehave.net> <440CF7EE.7070402@sympatico.ca> <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> <20060413050140.79222cd0.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <1e55af990604132147s2720b3e9g149d89c587184e88@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, ted leslie wrote: > Rio uses mp3 and wma , it doesnt take mp3's at a low bit rate, only wma, > but i dont like using mp3 players at low bit rates, and with a 2GB expansion SD card being cheap, > you can 192 the songs and still fit tonnes. This is a serious drawback for people who listen to comedy or audio books.. those are usually lower bitrate. How low is too low for a rio? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 05:33:39 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:33:39 -0400 Subject: MP3 Players In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604132147s2720b3e9g149d89c587184e88-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4403BB56.5020103@sympatico.ca> <4405999B.3060909@georgetown.wehave.net> <440CF7EE.7070402@sympatico.ca> <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> <20060413050140.79222cd0.tleslie@tcn.net> <1e55af990604132147s2720b3e9g149d89c587184e88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060414013339.34139093.tleslie@tcn.net> oddly enough the rio comes with some audible.com stuff! i think its 56Kbit for wma, but can only go own to 128 (or 96) for mp3 so yeah a lot of books and podcasts would be nice at 56Kb if mplayer can convert and spit out wmv8/9 i wonder if something on linux can encode wma ? i hate using ms stuff, but for a simple audio codec .. its not gonna kill me. I also read that someone put a 1GB sd in it, but one would hope a 2GB would work, but i guess until someone tries. -tl On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:47:46 -0400 "Sy Ali" wrote: > On 4/13/06, ted leslie wrote: > > Rio uses mp3 and wma , it doesnt take mp3's at a low bit rate, only wma, > > but i dont like using mp3 players at low bit rates, and with a 2GB expansion SD card being cheap, > > you can 192 the songs and still fit tonnes. > > This is a serious drawback for people who listen to comedy or audio > books.. those are usually lower bitrate. > > How low is too low for a rio? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 05:33:48 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: MP3 Players In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604132147s2720b3e9g149d89c587184e88-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4403BB56.5020103@sympatico.ca> <4405999B.3060909@georgetown.wehave.net> <440CF7EE.7070402@sympatico.ca> <1144916501.11704.7.camel@neo> <20060413050140.79222cd0.tleslie@tcn.net> <1e55af990604132147s2720b3e9g149d89c587184e88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443F343C.7000505@utoronto.ca> Sy Ali wrote: > On 4/13/06, ted leslie wrote: >> Rio uses mp3 and wma , it doesnt take mp3's at a low bit rate, only wma, >> but i dont like using mp3 players at low bit rates, and with a 2GB expansion SD card being cheap, >> you can 192 the songs and still fit tonnes. > > This is a serious drawback for people who listen to comedy or audio > books.. those are usually lower bitrate. > > How low is too low for a rio? Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to encode to a higher bitrate when uploading to the device? You can't loose any quality that isn't there to be lost can you? Sure it might take a while depending on your computer and lame settings, but 56 to 96kbps wouldn't be too difficult a thing considering the apparent benefits of the unit otherwise. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 13:59:36 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:59:36 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > Does anyone have any experience to share in creating non-software > projects like documentation or media projects such as podcasts in > which they use a open source license such as the GNU FDL or a Creative > Commons license, and why they chose one over the other? I use a few of the CC licenses, depending on the media. When I work with images for example, I usually base them on images already under a CC license. For original graphic works I mostly use Attribution-ShareAlike since my visual art skills are limited... If someone thinks they can use them commercially, power to 'em. In audio works[1] I'm a _little_ better so for these, I'm using Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike. I am more than willing to provide commercial exemptions (as allowed by CC licenses[2]) - basically, I'd like to know when/if they're being distributed say in commercials or videos - a (small) piece of the pie would encourage me to focus more on audio development. Although you've specifically request info about non-software projects, I'd like to point out some of the code that I posted on the GTALUG wiki. SAL (a set of Perl modules) "inherited" the FDL license upon posting it to the wiki[3] and I continued with that license when uploading the code to CPAN. My reasoning for this is that perl code is similar in many ways to HTML. It's (almost always) distributed as source-only. Since it's source, it's also documentation. More descriptive comments and cleaner code would increase it's documentation value, but in general I think the FDL is valid even for code. - Scott. [1] I intend to bring CD's containing the code I wish to present on. Due to the nature of the project, media adds to the overall effect so it's included with the software. As a side-note, the included audio is an "open source album," complete with source code. The down-side is that requires proprietary software that AFAIK only runs on windows. [2] "Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder" [3] Can this be overridden with an explicit statement in a wiki entry, say for licensing code snippets under the GPL? -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 14:07:56 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:07:56 -0400 Subject: gtalug.org wiki and howtos? In-Reply-To: <443F1A13.6030905-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <443F0DA6.8050809@utoronto.ca> <61e9e2b10604132037i3338fb75m230779d8dea55174@mail.gmail.com> <443F1A13.6030905@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604140707l67ac8f95s7c279ed9559568b0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Daniel Armstrong wrote: > > On 4/13/06, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> Would there be any interest/use in a howto section on gtalug.org? I've > >> been fiddling with gmail and exim4 today and finally got it (sort of) > >> working. There are lots of other howtos for this (and > >> postfix/sendmail/gmail) out there, but none are really comprehensive > >> i.e. going over mailsever basics and such too. Just wondering if people > >> of all skill levels would be willing to contribute to any howto? > > > > In a similar vein, would there be any interest in setting up a news > > aggregator to bring together the feeds of GTALUG members... sort of > > along the lines of "Planet Debian" - http://planet.debian.net/ - maybe > > a "Planet GTALUG"? > > > > That way, we could pool together our linux adventures and write our > > HOWTOs in the tool of our choice - blogs, wikis, whatever can provide > > a feed - and provide a single combined feed that we could subscribe. > > This might prove a nice complement to a HOWTO wiki page. > > That's a great idea. surely someone would like to showoff their perl > hackery skills and create an rss scraper? Perhaps PHP then? I think both are really good ideas. Doing RSS stuff in Perl isn't that difficult, and I suspect it's about as easy in PHP. I'd love to help on this front, but I'm bogged down with various projects over the next couple months. If somebody wants to pick it up and run with it, feel free to drop a line. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 15:54:05 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:54:05 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > [2] "Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from > the copyright holder" I noticed this, but I didn't realise it could be used as a notification system for the non-commercial license case. Cool. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 16:24:00 2006 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:24:00 -0400 Subject: [OT] Old sendmail versions (8.6.0 in particular) In-Reply-To: <43D8240B.10903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43D80F26.8070501@rogers.com> <20060126011448.GA4824@node1.opengeometry.net> <43D8240B.10903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <443FCCA0.4050103@interlog.com> Byron Sonne wrote: >> ftp://ftp.cert.dfn.de/pub/tools/net/sendmail/past-releases/ >> There are patches, but can't find the tarball to which you apply them. > > And now you know my pain ;) You can find the source for version 8.6.9 at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/slackware/2.1/source/n/sendmail/ For some reason the sendmail.org site has no pointer to any version control based repository of Sendmail otherwise you could have gotten it from there. It didn't take long to find with Google (less than 15 minutes). I just thought about how Linux distros have source code available for the packages they use. I though of Slackware as the second version of Linux I ever used. The last one I used was Slackware 96. After that it was easy. You can use the 8.6 patches at sendmail.org to upgrade or downgrade the 8.6.9 to make whichever version of 8.6 you need. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 16:51:25 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:51:25 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed Message-ID: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> I just received a brand new Touch Systems computer. Trying to install FC Core 4 (or 2 for that matter) the cursor just keeps flashing under the line "running /sbin/loader". It's been fifteen minutes. WIll it take an hour just to start the installation? I don't think the h/w is that complex. I managed to install W98 on a 3 GB partition I created earlier. System has 480 MB RAM. 149 GB hard drive. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 17:00:28 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:00:28 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <20060414165126.5035.qmail-oZic0ScuCLMGvIJkKQROuQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Message-ID: <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org writes: > I just received a brand new Touch Systems computer. Trying to install FC > Core 4 (or 2 for that matter) the cursor just keeps flashing under the > line "running /sbin/loader". It's been fifteen minutes. WIll it take an > hour just to start the installation? I don't think the h/w is that > complex. > The motherboard manual (ASUS Proactive ai Series P5S800-VM) makes no mention of linux support -- only W98SE/ME/2000/XP/2003. Is there something in thuis motherboard to thwart linux users? Something like that was alluded to in a post on this list a week or so ago (though not, I think, in reference to this motherboard). Chris P.S. The screen is still stuck at "running /sbin/loader". Although the cursor is flashing ubnder that line, I guess for my purposes it's "hung". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 17:17:20 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:17:20 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <20060414170028.15912.qmail-oZic0ScuCLMGvIJkKQROuQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Message-ID: <20060414171720.4066.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org writes: > P.S. The screen is still stuck at "running /sbin/loader". Although the > cursor is flashing ubnder that line, I guess for my purposes it's "hung". I found a couple of references to people that had trouble w this m/b and anaconda but no answers to their queries. I tried running the installation w 'linux text -noprobe' but I'm getting the exact same problem. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 18:07:12 2006 From: shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:07:12 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <20060414171720.4066.qmail-oZic0ScuCLMGvIJkKQROuQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414171720.4066.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Message-ID: <200604141407.13495.shrike@heinous.org> On Friday 14 April 2006 13:17, caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org writes: > > > > > P.S. The screen is still stuck at "running /sbin/loader". Although the > > cursor is flashing ubnder that line, I guess for my purposes it's "hung". > > I found a couple of references to people that had trouble w this m/b and > anaconda but no answers to their queries. > I tried running the installation w 'linux text -noprobe' but I'm getting > the exact same problem. > > > > Chris > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml Try Text mode, with "noapic or apic=0 or apic=off -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 21:06:08 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:06:08 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604141406w9a1bb6dob65cabeaf0749178@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Sy Ali wrote: > On 4/14/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > [2] "Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from > > the copyright holder" > > I noticed this, but I didn't realise it could be used as a > notification system for the non-commercial license case. Cool. Heheh. Can you do me a favor, Sy? If you're going to change the license on the image at http://jrandomhacker.info/Image:Forest_and_mist_1.jpg please let me know? Reason I ask is 'cause I hijacked that image for my project (attribution given, of course. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 14 21:49:45 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:49:45 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604141449ha8c0557n71306e316e053b79@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/11/06, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > > This all actually comes back to the problem I once mentioned: smtp is a mess, > > a hugest mess on the internet bettween all other communication protocols. > > SMTP has problems that make spammers' jobs easier. > > But at least some ISPs are experimenting with new anti-spam > techniques, such as allowing email senders to pay a tiny fee to bypass > spam filters. Perhaps once enough large e-mail providers adopt this > technique, the spam problem will be reduced. Not sure if this is the right message to inject this tidbit (about AOL) because I haven't read the sub-threads yet, but... >From the EFFector newsletter: [quote] * AOL Censors Email Tax Opponents Blocked Delivery Emails Mentioning www.DearAOL.com San Francisco - This week, AOL blocked delivery to AOL customers of all emails that include a link to www.DearAOL.com. Over 100 people who signed a petition to AOL tried sending messages to their AOL-using friends, and received a bounce-back message informing them that their email "failed permanently." "The fact is, ISPs like AOL commonly make these kinds of arbitrary decisions every day - silently banning huge swathes of legitimate mail on the flimsiest of reasons - and no one hears about it," said Danny O'Brien, Activism Coordinator of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). "AOL's planned CertifiedEmail system would let it profit from this power by offering to charge legitimate mailers to bypass these malfunctioning filters." After the original version of this press release was sent out Thursday afternoon, AOL stopped blocking email with links to www.DearAOL.com. This incident only increases our worry about organizations that don't have the ability to seek instant press attention. The next time AOL's anti-spam filters fail for a small organization - or one without political muscle - will they move so quickly to fix them? Or will they push organizations to just sign up with Goodmail and pay to avoid the problem? When reports of undelivered email started rolling in to the DearAOL.com Coalition, MoveOn co-founder Wes Boyd decided to see for himself if it was true. "I tried to email my brother-in-law about DearAOL.com, and AOL sent me a response as if he had disappeared," said Boyd. "But when I sent him an email without the DearAOL.com link, it went right through." While AOL may imply that censoring www.DearAOL.com is part of some anti-spam effort, its own customers are witnessing how faulty AOL's spam measures would be if that were the case. "I forwarded www.DearAOL.com to my own AOL account and it was censored. Apparently I can't even tell myself about it," said Kelly Tessitore from Framingham, Massachusetts. "This proves the DearAOL.com Coalition's point entirely: left to their own devices, AOL will always put its own self- interest ahead of the public interest in a free and open Internet," said Timothy Karr, campaign director of Free Press, a national, nonpartisan organization working on media reform and Internet policy issues. "AOL wants us to believe they won't hurt free email when their pay-to-send system is up and running. But if AOL is willing to censor the flow of information now to silence their critics, how could anyone trust that they will preserve the free and open Internet down the road? Their days of saying 'trust us' are over - their credibility is zero, zip, nada." The DearAOL.com Coalition represents over 15 million people combined - and has grown from 50 member organizations to 600 in a month. Since the beginning of the DearAOL.com campaign, more than 350,000 Internet users have signed letters to AOL opposing its pay to send proposal. Coalition members include craigslist founder Craig Newmark, the Association of Cancer Online Resources, EFF, Free Press, the AFL-CIO, MoveOn.org Civic Action, Gun Owners of America, and others. For more on the issues surrounding pay-to-send email, join EFF for a debate on April 20 in San Francisco. EFF's O'Brien and tech expert Esther Dyson will face off over the question "Email -- Should the Sender Pay?" Entrepreneur and EFF cofounder Mitch Kapor will moderate. More information about the DearAOL.com Coalition: More information on next week's debate: For the initial press release: [/quote] -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 03:47:00 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:47:00 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604141406w9a1bb6dob65cabeaf0749178-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604141406w9a1bb6dob65cabeaf0749178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604142047k60057afasdb2cb307e63445a3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Heheh. Can you do me a favor, Sy? > > If you're going to change the license on the image at > http://jrandomhacker.info/Image:Forest_and_mist_1.jpg please let me > know? > > Reason I ask is 'cause I hijacked that image for my project > (attribution given, of course. ;-) Would you like a higher-resolution version donated to your project? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 04:08:26 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 00:08:26 -0400 Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? In-Reply-To: References: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060415040826.GA12303@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 02:47:02AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > This is what I chose recently: > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=009219&cid=MP.29&PHPSESSID=fe028cb7628857f9fe0d098c13c320fb Looks interesting, as does its 1-gig big brother. Does it handle VBR (Variable Bit Rate) and is there a problem with playing "low bit rate" MP3 (e.g. 64 kbits/sec)? -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 04:13:09 2006 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 00:13:09 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EE2DF.7090706-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> <443EE2DF.7090706@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200604150013.10133.marc@lijour.net> On April 13, 2006 07:46 pm, James Knott wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces > > MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help > > me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any > > experience/recommendations? > > OpenOffice includes a database app, but I have no idea how it compares > to Access. They claim it to be equivalent to Access. But I have still to ear some feedback about how it compare to it in term of both features, usability and likeliness to Access. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 06:49:04 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 02:49:04 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 03:43:42PM -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote >> "Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the >> alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing the >> computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused." > This is absolutely what I don't believe can happen. I guess that's just how I > see it and will drag my feet the whole way should anyone decide to implement > this system. What I'm waiting for is somebody getting their computer zombied, and used in a DDOS, or spamblast, and being sued for "contributory negligence" by the victim. This might scare some sense into people. > Second, how are the ISPs going to separate the mailing lists from > the spammers? Long live NNTP. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 11:05:48 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:05:48 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <200604150013.10133.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> <443EE2DF.7090706@rogers.com> <200604150013.10133.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <4440D38C.2090405@rogers.com> Marc Lijour wrote: > On April 13, 2006 07:46 pm, James Knott wrote: >> Madison Kelly wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces >>> MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help >>> me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any >>> experience/recommendations? >> OpenOffice includes a database app, but I have no idea how it compares >> to Access. > > They claim it to be equivalent to Access. But I have still to ear some > feedback about how it compare to it in term of both features, usability and > likeliness to Access. I guess the big question is whether it does what Madison wants. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 13:25:24 2006 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:25:24 -0400 Subject: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? In-Reply-To: <443EBA4A.1060302-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <443EBA4A.1060302@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <000301c66090$0fc28040$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> #include Hello Madison. The trend that is promoted by most database vendors for *serious* app development now is really to move away from file based solutions towards client server (even if a local single user app is being developed). I would most probably use SQL Server 2005 Express Edition as your backend; which is free. It is a free version of SQL Server and can be used as a drop in replacement for MS Access. If you want to migrate everything in MS Access you can use the upsizing wizard and move everything over to SQL. After that you can use any Win32 GUI development product to access the data once it is in. SQL Server is really simple to setup/manage and it's quite quick. Oracle and IBM have similar products called Oracle Express and DB2 Express which are also free. Oracle and IBM also have tools to move from MS Access called workbench and the DB2 migration toolkit respectively. I dunno much about the IBM solution but both the Oracle and Microsoft products are limited by 4gb of data, 1gb of memory and 1 CPU. I would assume that the IBM product is similarly handicapped. Personally, both IBM and Oracle are a pain in the butt to setup and configure; but they are very reliable products. I have only used DB2 as a backend to IBM's LDAP server and it was a serious resource hog (but then again it was on a VM with 256 MB of RAM and Win2k3..... lol). These products are not OSS but they sure are free. Have fun and good luck. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Madison > Kelly > Sent: April 13, 2006 4:54 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: OSS on Win32 app to replace MS Access? > > Hi all, > > Does anyone know of a free (oss ideally) app for windows that replaces > MS Access? I've never used access so a plain google wouldn't really help > me because I need something that works well. Anyone here have any > experience/recommendations? > > Thanks all! > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 18:55:08 2006 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 14:55:08 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? Message-ID: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 services (cable + internet, in my case). Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 19:06:28 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:06:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060415185508.GA11170-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <44414434.3030807@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k > up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 > services (cable + internet, in my case). > > Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? > I have the Extreme 5 Mb/800 Kb service and it works fine. The "Lite" should be similar, though slower and only one mail ID. Incidentally, the IP addresses on Rogers, while DHCP, change so seldom that they're virutally static. You also get a consistent, though long, host name that never changes, so long as you use the same NIC & modem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 19:43:12 2006 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:43:12 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On April 13, 2006 14:01, Peter wrote: > > Let me start by saying that I haven't been actively following > > this thread so I may be very misinformed, but you're last > > paragraph really struct a chord with me, particularly this > > sentence: "This would prod 'innocent ignorers' into action." > > Now, I don't know if you are talking about charging business > > servers, who should be taking appropriate action to ensure > > they're not part of the problem or actual home users (Mom and > > Pop), but I'm under the impression that it is the latter. THIS > > WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I can just imagine the outrage of people who > > are already frustrated by computers having to pay an additional > > charge to be on the internet when, I think, a lot of these people > > are on the internet only because they feel they have to be. They > > are already upset about paying for something they don't fully > > understand. > > Anybody who sends email that gets returned as spam, beyond a > certain small quota that takes care of temporary misconfigurations, > should be charged in escrow, by his own ISP. If the email is not > returned as spam, say within a week, the fee is waived. Mailing > lists request and receive special permission. Anybody who sends > spam using that ISP pays through the nose. Anybody whose computer > was zombied gets a scary bill and the alternative of terminating > the account or immediately sanitizing the computer and maybe paying > a reduced fee for the inconvenience caused. The ISPs will be only > too glad to oblige. Any spammer on their network would be charged > to the tune of $20,000 per month. This would be good, because other > ISPs who would receive the spam could sue them, and they would need > the money for legal costs... Who is going to mind the minders? I would have to trust the ISPs, who would have a vested interest in making sure that they return as little of your proposed deposit as possible. I'll live with the scourge of spam, thank you, rather than give companies like Rogers and Bell that pose as ISPs even more control than they already have. As for penalizing the average person whose machine gets turned into a spam zombie, that would only punish them for the malicious actions of the criminals who compromised their computers. First, I'm skeptical that these machines are as big a problem as the anti-spam zealots seem to think they are because most ISPs now block port 25. Second, even if they are compromised, whose fault is that? The average person buys a computer, most likely running Windows, in good faith, gets an Internet connection, and just wants to "get stuff done". It's unrealistic to expect that they should all become sysadmins and tech experts just to send and receive email, type letters, and use a browser. This technology is supposed to make their lives easier, not more complicated. All these proposals are just misdirected anger. Rather than penalize the spammers, they will victimize the victims even further. If such proposals are ever implemented, legitimate users will have to put up a deposit. Spammers of course will not because they would have no need to. They will just keep doing what they've been doing, stealing resources from others, using stolen credit cards to pay for hosting and putting up that wonderful deposit that you propose, stealing identities, finding spammer-friendly ISPs, and so on. By the time someone notices that their credit card has been misused, the spammer could have sent out several hundred million pieces of spam and moved onto the next person to burn. In other words, it will be business as usual for the spammers while it will be anything but for everyone else. I will never support and in fact will fight tooth and nail any measure that requires the sender to pay to send email, even if that payment is refundable and I certainly get more than my fair share of spam every day. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 20:03:01 2006 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:03:01 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <20060415064904.GA13106-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On April 15, 2006 02:49, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 03:43:42PM -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote > > >> "Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the > >> alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing > >> the computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the > >> inconvenience caused." > > > > This is absolutely what I don't believe can happen. I guess > > that's just how I see it and will drag my feet the whole way > > should anyone decide to implement this system. > > What I'm waiting for is somebody getting their computer zombied, > and used in a DDOS, or spamblast, and being sued for "contributory > negligence" by the victim. This might scare some sense into > people. Blame the victim. As long as you're throwing around big lawyerly sounding phrases like "contributory negligence", why aren't you proposing that Microsoft be sued or in some way censured? Could it be because Microsoft has deeper pockets and is not likely to roll over but the grandma whose Windows machine got compromised is a softer target? -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 20:10:11 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:10:11 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Who is going to mind the minders? I would have to trust the ISPs, who > would have a vested interest in making sure that they return as > little of your proposed deposit as possible. I'll live with the > scourge of spam, thank you, rather than give companies like Rogers > and Bell that pose as ISPs even more control than they already have. I was trying to suggest a self-regulating decentralised system, based on voluntary participation by ISPs. An ISP has no interest to keep money from the deposit. As a user, you would switch providers asap. > As for penalizing the average person whose machine gets turned into a > spam zombie, that would only punish them for the malicious actions of > the criminals who compromised their computers. First, I'm skeptical Try to find an analogy: parking your car unlocked and with the keys in the ignition, and not minding if someone takes a trip with it from time to time. Worse, he could use it to harass someone or set up a bank heist, and you still don't mind. Assume the car was really locked but it has locks of a well-known flawed type, that anyone can open with a master key. > that these machines are as big a problem as the anti-spam zealots > seem to think they are because most ISPs now block port 25. Second, > even if they are compromised, whose fault is that? The average person > buys a computer, most likely running Windows, in good faith, gets an > Internet connection, and just wants to "get stuff done". It's That's the flaw. The 'in good faith' ... default setup ... Windows part. The point is, this set of assumptions is WRONG. Because the default setup does not deliver, and has not, so the 'in good faith' is seriously flawed. > unrealistic to expect that they should all become sysadmins and tech > experts just to send and receive email, type letters, and use a > browser. This technology is supposed to make their lives easier, not > more complicated. Leave your car unlocked, it's your business. Knowingly have others use it to heist a bank, and you're guilty. There is no kind of question about it. The question is, how do you pay for the damage ? Jail is out, doing nothing is out, warnings and begging does not help, so use some language most people understand: $, Pesos, Shekels, Loonies. Not too steep, it would be bad for business, but it should be clear to anyone that a proper (as opposed to illegal or pirated) antivirus setup and yearly subscription is significantly cheaper than ignoring the sluggish pc and the popup hijackings of the web browser. > All these proposals are just misdirected anger. Rather than penalize > the spammers, they will victimize the victims even further. If such There has got to be a system that balances the low cost of sending spam. The one I proposed would be one, there could be others. Until the ability of making money by sending spam will not be balanced by costs, spam will NOT CEASE to be a problem. In other words, any solution will have to involve money. Spam is being sent because it is cheap. That has to stop. > proposals are ever implemented, legitimate users will have to put up > a deposit. Spammers of course will not because they would have no > need to. They will just keep doing what they've been doing, stealing > resources from others, using stolen credit cards to pay for hosting But it will become harder and harder for them to do so. Because users who so far let their systems wide open (I really don't care why, after two or three warnings they have to fess up or return to offline life, or pay for the bandwidth and costs - not last that of infecting their network neighbors and people on their contact lists - they are helping waste - one of them). So the cost of finding and setting up 'zombies' will grow until it will start quenching the demand for spam, from the people who pay for it. It's just the way I see it. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 20:46:08 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:46:08 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On April 15, 2006 02:49, Walter Dnes wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 03:43:42PM -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote >> >>>> "Anybody whose computer was zombied gets a scary bill and the >>>> alternative of terminating the account or immediately sanitizing >>>> the computer and maybe paying a reduced fee for the >>>> inconvenience caused." >>> >>> This is absolutely what I don't believe can happen. I guess >>> that's just how I see it and will drag my feet the whole way >>> should anyone decide to implement this system. >> >> What I'm waiting for is somebody getting their computer zombied, >> and used in a DDOS, or spamblast, and being sued for "contributory >> negligence" by the victim. This might scare some sense into >> people. > > Blame the victim. As long as you're throwing around big lawyerly > sounding phrases like "contributory negligence", why aren't you > proposing that Microsoft be sued or in some way censured? Could it be Agree 100%, but they would sue back and win even if they would loose (see the antitrust case for a precedent). Grandma can afford to pay a $10 'fine' when she neglected to notice that her computer slowed down a lot and seems to be thrashing a lot, and ignored this for about a month, instead of calling her support person. She could have saved the call if she would have installed a more secure system, like Linux, or kept out of trouble. The small fee should start make John Q. Public notice that something is wrong with the way they make decisions about software and who sets it up in a language they understand, that of dollar and cents. Unlike the language of futile warnings and polite requests to upgrade software and install protection, and to have this done by someone who really knows what he's doing. After a while word should get around and people should start doing the right thing before trouble starts, or at least asap. Pavlovian reflex induced by modern billing methods. Of course the cost for people who comply in the first place would be essentially zero (less the deposit, which could be sold as a refundable 'online fraud insurance fee' - and that's exactly what it is). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:14:22 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:14:22 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604142047k60057afasdb2cb307e63445a3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604141406w9a1bb6dob65cabeaf0749178@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604142047k60057afasdb2cb307e63445a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604151514s76bd976dnccbafa57c3af928a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Sy Ali wrote: > Would you like a higher-resolution version donated to your project? To be honest, I'm working in prototype mode still and I don't have time atm to include proper support for it. Screen Resolution detection is... uhm, under construction. =) At some point though, yes please! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:28:32 2006 From: dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org (Dominic Bonfiglio) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:28:32 -0400 Subject: experience with hdparm Message-ID: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> hi, has anyone tried to speed up their linux system using hdparm? any luck? any risks? thanks, dominic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:43:07 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:43:07 -0400 Subject: experience with hdparm In-Reply-To: <44417390.7040604-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20060415184307.02044ea2.tleslie@tcn.net> if dma is off, then turning it on speeds thing up HUGE, but usually it will go on auto if the IDE controller (chip set), etc is detected in kernel. So usually you don't have to play with it. If you do have dma=0 and change it to d=1 and it takes, and doesnt give you any issues, then you might want to check you boot log and see why its chooses to not go with DMA (by default).... as for 16/32 transfer, etc, again usually auto ... probably have to make sure your bios has the right options for your drives. -tl On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:28:32 -0400 Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > hi, > > has anyone tried to speed up their linux system using hdparm? any luck? > any risks? > > thanks, > dominic > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:40:02 2006 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:40:02 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060415185508.GA11170-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <44417642.8060604@utoronto.ca> I have Roger's Ultra Lite. I get speeds that are greater than what's stated. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:57:12 2006 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:57:12 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2006 at 11:46:08PM +0300 References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20060415185712.B335@diamond.ss.org> > > Agree 100%, but they would sue back and win even if they would loose > (see the antitrust case for a precedent). Grandma can afford to pay a > $10 'fine' when she neglected to notice that her computer slowed down a > lot and seems to be thrashing a lot, and ignored this for about a month, > instead of calling her support person. She could have saved the call if > she would have installed a more secure system, like Linux, or kept out > of trouble. The small fee should start make John Q. Public notice that > something is wrong with the way they make decisions about software and > who sets it up in a language they understand, that of dollar and cents. > Unlike the language of futile warnings and polite requests to upgrade > software and install protection, and to have this done by someone who > really knows what he's doing. The problem with 'the small fee' scenerio is that it will become the reason to police things. Instead of investigating and stopping spammers, the authorities in question will investigate and fine the victoms of these attacks. Also the victims of these attacks may quickly decide that the fee 'is part of doing business' espeically if its infrequent and small. What you will get is the situation similar to parking enforcement. The authorities aren't interested in stopping illegal parking or remedying it by legislating solutions because the infraction is too lucrative a business. > > After a while word should get around and people should start doing the > right thing before trouble starts, or at least asap. Pavlovian reflex > induced by modern billing methods. More likely they will see the fine as part of doing business. If getting caught is infrequent, then why bother with the latest updates? Also if such a system is instituted why don't you think that a class action suit against Microsoft won't ensue. It is their product that is causing people to be fined. Why do you think a civil court won't find Microsoft negligent? Finally why do you think you ISP wouldn't end up in court for allowing such dangerous practices on their network? An ISP can easily set up a quota system (say 1000 emails a day) and 99.99% of the machines out there wouldn't notice. This would immediately kill all spammers. The few people (say someone running a mailing list) can put in for an exemption, have to sign papers saying they will take responsibility for any spam from their machine generates. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 15 22:57:18 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:57:18 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604151514s76bd976dnccbafa57c3af928a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604140659nee4c3f9je7a73e4b5c4fde40@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604140854q7022f55aof733f12df381b217@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604141406w9a1bb6dob65cabeaf0749178@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604142047k60057afasdb2cb307e63445a3@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604151514s76bd976dnccbafa57c3af928a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604151557m1705f650p1bea2ef01f55d1e3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/15/06, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/14/06, Sy Ali wrote: > > Would you like a higher-resolution version donated to your project? > > To be honest, I'm working in prototype mode still and I don't have > time atm to include proper support for it. Screen Resolution > detection is... uhm, under construction. =) > > At some point though, yes please! Ok, remind me later and I'll fish out the 5 megabit version for you, licensed however you need. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 00:12:54 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> >> What I'm waiting for is somebody getting their computer zombied, >> and used in a DDOS, or spamblast, and being sued for "contributory >> negligence" by the victim. This might scare some sense into >> people. > Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I avoid lawyers, except as drinking buddies. You leave your car unlocked. A criminal steals the car and then hits someone with it. Is that 'contributory negligence'? As far as I know, it's not. On the other hand, suppose you leave your house unlocked. Someone steals an improperly stored gun and uses it to kill another person. Is that contributory negligence? Again, as far as I know, it's not. The gun owner would get dinged for unsafe storage of a firearm. The gun owner *might* be sued by the relatives of the deceased person, depending on the circumstances. However, a firearm is *much* more obviously a dangerous device than a computer. And killing someone is obviously much more serious than sending spam. So the onus would be on the person initiating the suit to show that they had suffered serious monetary losses, and that the owner of the computer should have taken measures to prevent its misappropriation. Furthermore, as a practical matter it's not much use suing individuals unless they have deep pockets. It might be more effective to sue the manufacturer of the operating system. They may have deep pockets, but the pockets are full of lawyers. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 00:46:44 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? In-Reply-To: <20060415040826.GA12303-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> <20060415040826.GA12303@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 02:47:02AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote | | > This is what I chose recently: | > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=009219&cid=MP.29&PHPSESSID=fe028cb7628857f9fe0d098c13c320fb | | Looks interesting, as does its 1-gig big brother. The 1G version no longer has the virtue of being cheap. It costs twice as much as the 1G. I expect that there are more interesting players at that price. | Does it handle VBR | (Variable Bit Rate) and is there a problem with playing "low bit rate" | MP3 (e.g. 64 kbits/sec)? You can download the manual. I don't have the URL at hand. Here's from the specifications: MPEG1/2/2.5 Layer3(8Kbps ~ 320Kbps, 8KHz ~ 48KHz) WMA, Audio ASF (48Kbps ~ 192Kbps, 8KHz ~ 48KHz), Ogg(Q0~Q9) The manual refers to limitations in fast forwarding and rewinding VBRs so I guess it handles them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 01:02:20 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 04:02:20 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <20060415185712.B335-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20060415185712.B335@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> software and install protection, and to have this done by someone who >> really knows what he's doing. > > The problem with 'the small fee' scenerio is that it will become the > reason to police things. Instead of investigating and stopping > spammers, the authorities in question will investigate and fine the > victoms of these attacks. Also the victims of these attacks may > quickly decide that the fee 'is part of doing business' espeically if > its infrequent and small. Maybe, but either way it would eventually make service cheaper for whom is compliant. Eventually the larger bandwidth and admin time consumed by zombied hosts and spammers will translate into dollars, and those who are not among the 'flawed' will likely be eligible for rebates, lower prices, etc. This in turn could attract other customers to sign up at the new, lower prices. The current situation is, that the sender of bulk email pays *the least*, as opposed to the 10,000 receivers. This is the problem. Until this problem will not be addressed, there will be no peace. > What you will get is the situation similar to parking enforcement. The > authorities aren't interested in stopping illegal parking or remedying > it by legislating solutions because the infraction is too lucrative a > business. Agreed. That's why I was thinking of escrow, and voluntary only (as in ISP volunteering to do this). Also the 'regulatory body' would be formed from among the volunteers (probably with input from a user panel). After all, RBL lists and so on are a variant of this, but without financial teeth. >> After a while word should get around and people should start doing the >> right thing before trouble starts, or at least asap. Pavlovian reflex >> induced by modern billing methods. > > More likely they will see the fine as part of doing business. If > getting caught is infrequent, then why bother with the latest updates? True, but their fees would allow the ISPs to settle matters otherwise. F.ex. by buying bulk antivirus protection. They would also wise up and eventually boot such users, because of the threat of being ostracized by the other ISPs in the network (for wasting their bandwidth and disk space and cpu time). After all, this is exactly what an admin at the receiving end of a wall of spam does now: blacklist the origin block for a while. > Also if such a system is instituted why don't you think that a class > action suit against Microsoft won't ensue. It is their product that is > causing people to be fined. Why do you think a civil court won't find > Microsoft negligent? It is almost irrelevant how, when, and for how much a court finds them in NA. Ever since they were indicted for being a monopoly and walked away from it as if nothing has happened, and ever since the kafkaesque interminable lawsuit about Linux, the credibility of that legal system has become irrelevant in this context (that of the state or a class action suing monopolies, or patents). > Finally why do you think you ISP wouldn't end up in court for allowing > such dangerous practices on their network? Which dangerous practices ? The ones they have been allowing since they exist and occasionally indulged in (as when forwarding spam or providing colocation, dns, mx, and routing to known spammers) ? > An ISP can easily set up a quota system (say 1000 emails a day) and > 99.99% of the machines out there wouldn't notice. This would > immediately kill all spammers. The few people (say someone running a > mailing list) can put in for an exemption, have to sign papers saying > they will take responsibility for any spam from their machine > generates. Agreed. But this lacks teeth. Somehow, the dollar incentive to sending spam must be countered. But how ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 01:54:33 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: experience with hdparm In-Reply-To: <44417390.7040604-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> References: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > hi, > > has anyone tried to speed up their linux system using hdparm? any luck? > any risks? I did a talk on this at TLUG a couple of years back. There are some risks associated with non-standard IDE interfaces and chipsets. I've never had data loss despite using hdparm on a regular basis. Having said this, I always backup before playing with hdparm. I did crash a box once when I enabled DMA - it was writing to disk at the time. This was an experiment :) Here are the settings I have on one box at the moment. This is pretty typical: /sbin/hdparm -a8 -c1 -d1 -k1 -m16 -u1 -W1 /dev/hda Experimentation is often required for ideal settings. You can do speed testing on the disks with hdparm and also with bonnie++ Always always always back up before tweaking parameters using hdparm or speed testing once you have tweaked the parameters. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 03:12:52 2006 From: dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org (Dominic Bonfiglio) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:12:52 -0400 Subject: experience with hdparm In-Reply-To: References: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4441B634.4040408@gmx.de> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, Dominic Bonfiglio wrote: > >> hi, >> >> has anyone tried to speed up their linux system using hdparm? any luck? >> any risks? > > I did a talk on this at TLUG a couple of years back. There are some > risks associated with non-standard IDE interfaces and chipsets. I've > never had data loss despite using hdparm on a regular basis. Having > said this, I always backup before playing with hdparm. > > I did crash a box once when I enabled DMA - it was writing to disk at > the time. This was an experiment :) > > Here are the settings I have on one box at the moment. This is pretty > typical: > > /sbin/hdparm -a8 -c1 -d1 -k1 -m16 -u1 -W1 /dev/hda > > Experimentation is often required for ideal settings. > > You can do speed testing on the disks with hdparm and also with bonnie++ > > Always always always back up before tweaking parameters using hdparm > or speed testing once you have tweaked the parameters. > > Rob > dear rob and ted, thanks for the advice! dominic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 03:20:42 2006 From: dominicbonfiglio-Mmb7MZpHnFY at public.gmane.org (Dominic Bonfiglio) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:20:42 -0400 Subject: Linux-compatable MP3 players? In-Reply-To: References: <20060413051526.GA6986@waltdnes.org> <20060415040826.GA12303@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4441B80A.3070103@gmx.de> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Walter Dnes > > | On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 02:47:02AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > | > | > This is what I chose recently: > | > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=009219&cid=MP.29&PHPSESSID=fe028cb7628857f9fe0d098c13c320fb > | > | Looks interesting, as does its 1-gig big brother. > > > > On Friday I bought the 60-dollar 512 MB Samsung mp3 player from Canada computer. So far, I am really impressed: nice design, the USB charging is quite handy, the sound is very good, and it works well with linux. my only problem: I haven't been able to integrate it with amaroK yet, but i read on their Web site that they are trying to improve generic mp3 player integration for future releases. ---dominic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 03:52:10 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:52:10 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1144957422.443ea9ee0ba3a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <20060415064904.GA13106@waltdnes.org> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20060416035210.GA15161@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Apr 15, 2006 at 04:03:01PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote > Blame the victim. As long as you're throwing around big lawyerly > sounding phrases like "contributory negligence", why aren't you > proposing that Microsoft be sued or in some way censured? Could it > be because Microsoft has deeper pockets and is not likely to roll > over but the grandma whose Windows machine got compromised is a > softer target? Actually, I should've been clearer about the distinction between straight "negligence" and "contributory negligence". - if MS made a corrective patch available then it's in the clear. - Joe's porn websight suing John Smith for allowing his computer to participate in a DDOS would be a straight "negligence" complaint. - John Smith sues MS because he got 0wn3d by a botnet, and fined by his ISP. If John Smith didn't have up-to-date patches/anti-virus and firewall, MS can claim "contributory negligence" on John Smith's part. I.e. John Smith suffered damage (fined by ISP, kicked off the net, whatever) because of his own negligence. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 12:43:34 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 08:43:34 -0400 Subject: GNU FDL License vs. Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604132145h53338f16y5c1e1c546eb872bb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604132049r1eddcc66oe3222548cc4d15c6@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990604132145h53338f16y5c1e1c546eb872bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604160543k75aa192fo7886598c0cef6c84@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Sy Ali wrote: > And so because I don't particularly care, I went for the more > accessible license which I could easily understand. I was also lazy > and didn't want to persue Gnu stuff because there's a lot of politics > and anger over there, which I don't want to associate with. > Thanks for the feedback. The Creative Commons License does seem a lot more straightforward, and using the non-commercial clause (with a laissez-faire attitude towards granting permission) as a form of notification of what others might want to do with the work is a good idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 15:15:03 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:15:03 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <44425F77.1040301@telly.org> To me, spam is simply a scaled up, cheapened-down version of flyers in the mailbox. It used to be argued that in paper spam the sender bore all the cost, but that is no longer true given increasing municipal restrictions on waste collection. Given the existence of online directories, even the phone book is arguably a very heavy, very wasteful, and increasingly costly-to-dispose-of physical spam. Of course, that gets to the issue of what spam is, which I heard most people defined as "any email that I didn't ask for, either of a commercial or hostile nature". At one level this is difficult to deal with since folks are bombarded with many unsolicited messages every day, so where do you draw the line? Do you send a bill to the pizza parlour or real estate agent because their flyer contributed to the fact you're over your weekly-bag garbage limit? What if you live near a supermailbox and your lawn is filled with the spam of others, now your problem? IMO the problem has both a technical and a human component. The technical component, to me, is the fact that spam catchers are becoming better and smarter. The Maia-spamassasin-etc system upon which I rely has been extremely effective at enforcing the criteria that I personally establish for email acceptability. The rate of false positives is under one-third of a percent and still dropping. Meanwhile, I agree with those who suggest that ISPs who currently set limits on bandwidth, mailbox size etc. should also establish separate personal and business limits/rates for outgoing email. At a personal/policy level, I see spam as a privacy issue much like problems faced by harassing or daemon-dialled phone calls or getting tons of paper mail that must be read and disposed of. While spam is a bigger nuisance because of the volume -- for now -- I see "paper spam" as being a bigger environmental problem. I believe that public policy has to treat privacy issues in the big picture, and spam in itself is just one of many parts of this picture. Most spam that I see appears to relate to fraudulent activity (phishing, 419, "OEM software", fake drugs), and IMO should be attacked on this levels as crime at the source. If countries can have treaties on protecting their citizens' intellectual property, they should also be able to co-operate on reducing international fraud. Law enforcement doesn't *have* to be far behind the perps if the public will exists. Most of the pay-per-use answers I've seen here are hardly worthwhile. They may reduce the volume of spam somewhat, but will not eliminate the larger problem and create new problems and inconveniences of their own. They will allow people who can pay for the privilege to continue to spam, while others who may have a more legitimate or desperate message to get out will be stopped. Turning "general spam" into "spam for those who can afford it" is not IMO a sensible approach. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 15:23:27 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:23:27 -0400 Subject: about patents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604160823kccaf9f8gf2a145f6d26081e5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Peter wrote: > > An article well worth reading imho: > > http://www.paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html Speaking of patents... There is an article in today's New York Times about how NTP - in pursuit of their lawsuit against RIM - buried information about a fellow named Geoff Goodfellow who had done earlier work on wireless email. Man, what a bunch of bottomfeeders... The article is here: http://tinyurl.com/kxwdr I'm curious, though, how RIM missed digging up this info themselves. Considering the money involved, you would think they would have moved heaven and earth to destroy NTP's patent claims. Also, the article states that Port 99 is reserved for pushing an electronic mail message to a wireless pager - I just looked in /etc/services, and I don't see a mention of this. Is the article mistaken, or am I missing something? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 17:05:02 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:05:02 -0400 Subject: about patents In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604160823kccaf9f8gf2a145f6d26081e5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604160823kccaf9f8gf2a145f6d26081e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604161005x2b5520aft9cf1dbdcb4d19912@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/06, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > On 4/10/06, Peter wrote: > > > > An article well worth reading imho: > > > > http://www.paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html A though provoking read, though I'm not sure I could support software patents, even if the USPTO (or even CIPO) cleaned things up. As an example, if I go an write an OS what's to stop M$ from coming along and destroying such competition if they've got patents on some procedures needed to make a system work? I remember once upon a time, function calls like printf() and writeln() were safe to use... (Wouldn't expect to get sued for using these, but they illustrate the point, I think.) > Speaking of patents... There is an article in today's New York Times > about how NTP - in pursuit of their lawsuit against RIM - buried > information about a fellow named Geoff Goodfellow who had done earlier > work on wireless email. Man, what a bunch of bottomfeeders... > > The article is here: > > http://tinyurl.com/kxwdr > > I'm curious, though, how RIM missed digging up this info themselves. > Considering the money involved, you would think they would have moved > heaven and earth to destroy NTP's patent claims. Another good article, but an even better question. Mr. Goodfellow was retained by NTP and signed an NDA. But still, that doesn't account for the fact the Mr. Goodfellow was once in partnership with RIM according to the article... > Also, the article states that Port 99 is reserved for pushing an > electronic mail message to a wireless pager - I just looked in > /etc/services, and I don't see a mention of this. Is the article > mistaken, or am I missing something? tcp/99 and udp/99 are assigned to the 'Metagram' protocol: http://www.insecure.org/nmap/data/nmap-services -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 17:08:47 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:08:47 -0400 Subject: about patents In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604161005x2b5520aft9cf1dbdcb4d19912-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604160823kccaf9f8gf2a145f6d26081e5@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604161005x2b5520aft9cf1dbdcb4d19912@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44427A1F.3060801@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > I remember once upon a time, function calls like printf() and > writeln() were safe to use... > > (Wouldn't expect to get sued for using these, but they illustrate the > point, I think.) I thought those were SCO's IP. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 20:13:12 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:13:12 +0300 (IDT) Subject: about patents In-Reply-To: References: <61e9e2b10604160823kccaf9f8gf2a145f6d26081e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Apr 2006, Peter wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Apr 2006, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > >> Speaking of patents... There is an article in today's New York Times >> about how NTP - in pursuit of their lawsuit against RIM - buried >> information about a fellow named Geoff Goodfellow who had done earlier >> work on wireless email. Man, what a bunch of bottomfeeders... >> >> The article is here: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/kxwdr >> >> I'm curious, though, how RIM missed digging up this info themselves. >> Considering the money involved, you would think they would have moved >> heaven and earth to destroy NTP's patent claims. >> >> Also, the article states that Port 99 is reserved for pushing an >> electronic mail message to a wireless pager - I just looked in >> /etc/services, and I don't see a mention of this. Is the article >> mistaken, or am I missing something? > > The whole email push patent story is b*11***s since message > storage/forwarding (i.e. push) exists since radiograms were sent with TTYs > over shortwave using repeaters (1940s), and since hams sent Baudot and Sstv > (there you have your multimedia) either directly (broadcast bulletins too), > or via store/forward, even through sattelites (Oscar), which was a popular > sport in the 1980s and still is. It all boils down to what the uspto will > consider 'previous art' when awarding a patent (i.e. if a 'message receiving > apparatus' can be an ASR32/KSR32 tty mounted in a van or command car coupled > to a Collins or General Radio or Telefunken receiver and modem, or does it > have to be smaller than x inches on a side, or flat, to be considered > 'portable' - or whether a 'message sending apparatus' has to be a computer or > can it be a Moore-Mealy automaton implemented with TTL chips and driven by a > keyboard or paper tape and magnetic tape, or whether the usual XY matrix > switch (which can be as complex as a small phone exchange) used to route TTY > signals in a radio switchboard is computer enough, or does it have to be less > than - what? - 70 TTLs ? 50 TTLs ? 10 LSIs ? 1 chip ?). Just for laughs, the > Wikipedia article on tty: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype > > (and follow up to telegraphy and therein TOR and RTTY) > > You would be surprised to know how many 'recently patented' procedures and > devices have previous art. Joysticks, mouse-like devices (f.ex. pantographs), > trackballs, single-click action, double-click action, triple-click action, > many of these have been used since at least the second half of the 19th > century for various things, many connected to telecom and electricity. > > Almost the entire terminology used in IT, as in packets, checksums, headers, > envelopes, network numbers, message numbers, station numbers, retransmit > counts, ACKs, CCs etc, goes back to the massive tty, telegraph and radio > networks used before and during WW2. > > F.ex. I know that the multi-click was used for an electric gearbox (this is > still used - see paddleshift), thus 'selecting a different function depending > on the number of button clicks and their duration' (I won't even mention > slide projectors which use said technique to go forward, backward and to the > end of the magazine since the 1950s at least). > > Also wouldn't you say that dropping a coin into a vending machine and > pressing a button corresponding to the desired merchandise would be a 'one > click buy' ? Never mind, to each his own. I am not in the usa. All I can hope > is that the powers that be elsewhere realise what the adoption of us > 'standards' for patents and IP mean for their everyday life. > > If the current kafkaesque lawsuit vs. linux, and the previous RIM affair, > were no warnings, then nothing will ever be. I especially liked the request > made by the us to the EC parts which handle the latest ms antitrust debacle, > to 'give ms a fair treatment'. Meaning what, exactly ? Conviction by an > european Penfield Jackson followed by forgetting the whole thing ? > > Peter > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 16 21:52:59 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:52:59 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <44425F77.1040301-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <44425F77.1040301@telly.org> Message-ID: <20060416215259.GA16407@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006 at 11:15:03AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote > Most spam that I see appears to relate to fraudulent activity (phishing, > 419, "OEM software", fake drugs), and IMO should be attacked on this > levels as crime at the source. If countries can have treaties on > protecting their citizens' intellectual property, they should also be > able to co-operate on reducing international fraud. Law enforcement > doesn't *have* to be far behind the perps if the public will exists. One theory I've seen advanced on the NANAE (news.admin.net-abuse.email) newsgroup is that "main-sleaze" (i.e. "legitimate business") wants the crooks kicked out so that they can take over and flood your mailbox. What *REALLY* annoys big business about spam, is that today's crooks might give people the impression that *ALL* email advertising is a scam. I see it not as a crusade to clean up email, but rather as a turf war between different spam gangs. I would much rather have "the crooks" running spam. Right now, it's the small-time crooks whining about blocklists obstructing their "right to frea speach". Imagine what things would be like if it was Wal-Mart, etc, getting their spam^H^H^H^H exciting offers blocked. Blocklists would be outlawed in no time flat. > Most of the pay-per-use answers I've seen here are hardly worthwhile. > They may reduce the volume of spam somewhat, but will not eliminate the > larger problem and create new problems and inconveniences of their own. They're *NOT INTENDED TO REDUCE SPAM*, at least not directly. The idea behind "certified email" is that AOL's garbage^H^H^H^H^H^H^H super-duper email client will show a special flag indicating that, yes indeed, this email actually did come from your bank, not a phisher. The idea is to reduce fraud. If it makes phishing less effective and reduces the incentive for phishers to spam, that would be a serendipitous side-effect. > They will allow people who can pay for the privilege to continue to > spam, Spam is a very low-cost advertising medium, with a very low response rate. But you can make up for it with volume. Adding even a bit of overhead to the equation makes spam uneconomical as a broadcast advertising medium. That'll stop 90% of the spam (except see below). > while others who may have a more legitimate or desperate message to > get out will be stopped. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH NNNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!! If you look carefully at the list at http://www.dearaol.com you'll see all the usual American lib-left suspects... moveon.org, Democrat National Committee, AFL-CIO, and various "voters leagues". You think things are bad now, wait till politicians de-fang anti-spam technologies to make sure that their "urgent messages" get through. These are the same hypocrites who put in laws over-riding no-soliciting restrictions to allow politicians to go knocking door-to-door and over-ride do-not-call lists to allow pollsters and politicians to keep your phone ringing off the hook every election. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 01:31:37 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World Canada Meeting Message-ID: <20060417013137.54387.qmail@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I would like to get together with the Linux World Canada volunteers Monday at 7:00 PM at the Starbucks inside the Yonge & Eglinton Indigo book store. Key items for this meeting will be paperwork and handouts. If anyone attending the meeting has easy access to a colour printer and could print out a 5 page OpenOffice .sxd file please let me know. Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 01:55:17 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:55:17 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <44425F77.1040301-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <44425F77.1040301@telly.org> Message-ID: <1145238917.4523.10.camel@gandalf> On Sun, 2006-04-16 at 11:15 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Most of the pay-per-use answers I've seen here are hardly worthwhile. > They may reduce the volume of spam somewhat, but will not eliminate the > larger problem and create new problems and inconveniences of their own. > They will allow people who can pay for the privilege to continue to > spam, while others who may have a more legitimate or desperate message > to get out will be stopped. Turning "general spam" into "spam for those > who can afford it" is not IMO a sensible approach. > > - Evan Good points all, but not having seen the start of this thread, I am intrigued by the title nonetheless. I agree that paying for email wouldn't solve anything. I guess by "certified" would imply to put into place a system by which all mail that does not possess said "certificate" is excluded from acceptance by any mailing list or person. I am not sure that that would be easily carried out, since all email is, in some way, context- dependent. There is email from a list; there is email from "the wild beyond" (friends we hadn't seen in some time); there is email from web pages whom we willingly accepted information be emailed to us (I am guilty of doing this on occasion); there is email from friends we know and have frequent contact with; there is email from co-workers in an office network, often subjected to illicit email. Anything I can think of that would distinguish friend from foe by said certificate would likely add to the complexity at the user end. At the end of the day, someone, somewhere will compromise the "certificate system", and spam will continue afresh, and you will have to go back to filtering again. Sorry if I sound pessimistic. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 01:57:01 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060415185508.GA11170-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> William Park wrote: > I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k > up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 > services (cable + internet, in my case). > > Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? I had Roger's lite a few years ago (probably 5 years actually), at that time it was 128K down. I think I could have lived with 128K down if it were not for their also limiting the number of connections - if I recall correctly there was a total of 4 simultaneous connections allowed. I would get TCP error messages even just browsing a webpage. If you can live with the 128k up then I'd say go for it, just double check if they limit you on number of tcp connections (it probably just applies to http). If you do have a land line you may wish to consider DSL. I've been with teksavvy since the final istop fiasco. 3M/800K service is $29.95/month - I pay an extra $4/month on top of that for a static IP. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 02:11:07 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:11:07 -0400 Subject: xine on FC3 Message-ID: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> I finally have xine working on Fedora Core 3, but it required a bunch of RPM files which I found in various nameless, faceless RPM distro sites. I have had some problems with sound (it would cut out when I stop and restart a video). Right now I am watching an AVI-format video called "Computer Networks: The Heralds of Resource Sharing", copied from a 1970s film made by ARPANet. Ironically, while this AVI is in a now-obsolete Windows format, it *only* seems to be playable in Linux. This is not true for AVI files in general. Normally, Windows Media Player will complain about some resource not being found, but play it anyway. But Media Player doesn't even know what this file is. Right now, a person is drawing a network diagram, and explaining why IMPs were favoured over direct 50-kilobit connections. Later they will discuss TIPs and timesharing. The film is a true museum piece, but everything they say about the impact on society and the quantum leaps in technological advances appear to hold true today. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 02:39:00 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:39:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <4442F5ED.5090202-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> Fraser Campbell wrote: > William Park wrote: > >> I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k >> up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 >> services (cable + internet, in my case). >> >> Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? > > I had Roger's lite a few years ago (probably 5 years actually), at that > time it was 128K down. I think I could have lived with 128K down if it > were not for their also limiting the number of connections - if I recall > correctly there was a total of 4 simultaneous connections allowed. I > would get TCP error messages even just browsing a webpage. > > If you can live with the 128k up then I'd say go for it, just double > check if they limit you on number of tcp connections (it probably just > applies to http). > > If you do have a land line you may wish to consider DSL. I've been with > teksavvy since the final istop fiasco. 3M/800K service is $29.95/month > - I pay an extra $4/month on top of that for a static IP. For that price I think you could subscribe to Wireless Nomad with the exact same 3M/800K speed. I've been considering them for a while now and would be interested to hear from people who use them (linuxcaffe, etc.). Does anyone know if a static IP is an option with them? What about more general information? Do they use custom firmware on the WRT-54GL? Can I use my own WRT-54GL? Their residential plan can be seen here: http://wirelessnomad.ca/services/wireless/residential Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 02:53:36 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:53:36 -0400 Subject: xine on FC3 In-Reply-To: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> References: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <44430330.5070000@utoronto.ca> Paul King wrote: > I finally have xine working on Fedora Core 3, but it required a bunch of > RPM files which I found in various nameless, faceless RPM distro sites. Nameless/faceless meaning obscure, or meaning obfuscatory so as to not name the site? freshrpms has FC3 xine rpms, and their repositories (for various distros/FC versions) integrate with most of the common package management systems on the different versions of FC. > I have had some problems with sound (it would cut out when I stop and > restart a video). > > Right now I am watching an AVI-format video called "Computer Networks: > The Heralds of Resource Sharing", copied from a 1970s film made by > ARPANet. Ironically, while this AVI is in a now-obsolete Windows format, > it *only* seems to be playable in Linux. This is not true for AVI files > in general. Normally, Windows Media Player will complain about some > resource not being found, but play it anyway. But Media Player doesn't > even know what this file is. That depends on the actual codecs in use within the file. If I understand it correctly, avi is more of a container for audio and video data than it is an indicator of the compatibility of said data -- the internally interleaved (audio video interleave) streams can be encoded in whatever codec you like. > Right now, a person is drawing a network diagram, and explaining why > IMPs were favoured over direct 50-kilobit connections. Later they will > discuss TIPs and timesharing. The film is a true museum piece, but > everything they say about the impact on society and the quantum leaps in > technological advances appear to hold true today. Where does one find this video (if it is freely available that is)? I have no idea what the preceding paragraph means (in technical terms), but I find historical accounts of technology (and things and events in general) are always always always interesting and can usually shed no small amount of insight into current trends and technology. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 04:54:46 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 00:54:46 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <4442FFC4.2080408-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> go to that link and look at their coverage area ... one think for sure with them, is you will be a early adopter and probably have to put up with some seriously spotty access!! There is a bitch'n new internet access coming out soon in Toronto and GTA .. broadband over hydro lines. What amazing about it, is it 8Megs ...... 8Megs SYSMETRIC!!! for 5$ cheaper then basic bell adsl price. If this makes it out ... man talk about a serious home feed!!! It is first being targetted at condo's, and then an spread out to homes on certain step-down power grid sectors. If it shows up in my neighbourhood, 8Mbits/sec symetric ... thats a no brainer! -tl > use my own WRT-54GL? > > Their residential plan can be seen here: > http://wirelessnomad.ca/services/wireless/residential > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 05:02:52 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 01:02:52 -0400 Subject: xine on FC3 In-Reply-To: <44430330.5070000-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> <44430330.5070000@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1145250172.4523.50.camel@gandalf> On Sun, 2006-04-16 at 22:53 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Paul King wrote: > > I finally have xine working on Fedora Core 3, but it required a bunch of > > RPM files which I found in various nameless, faceless RPM distro sites. > > Nameless/faceless meaning obscure, or meaning obfuscatory so as to not > name the site? freshrpms has FC3 xine rpms, and their repositories (for > various distros/FC versions) integrate with most of the common package > management systems on the different versions of FC. > there were several different sites which I visited for xine, xine-lib, and several supporting packages. I didn't think it was all that relevant to mention them, or even try to remember what they were. I just entered a package name on Google, and went to the first relevant site that had a viable package for FC3. I only visited freshrpms once. There was also rpmfind, I think, as well as several sites that looked like rpmfind (they may have well been rpmfind, although I can't recall). > > I have had some problems with sound (it would cut out when I stop and > > restart a video). > > > > Right now I am watching an AVI-format video called "Computer Networks: > > The Heralds of Resource Sharing", copied from a 1970s film made by > > ARPANet. Ironically, while this AVI is in a now-obsolete Windows format, > > it *only* seems to be playable in Linux. This is not true for AVI files > > in general. Normally, Windows Media Player will complain about some > > resource not being found, but play it anyway. But Media Player doesn't > > even know what this file is. > > That depends on the actual codecs in use within the file. If I > understand it correctly, avi is more of a container for audio and video > data than it is an indicator of the compatibility of said data -- the > internally interleaved (audio video interleave) streams can be encoded > in whatever codec you like. > I think it was later hacked into being a container for other formats once Windows refused to support it in favour of WMV or whatever the multimedia flavour-of-the-month is. > > Right now, a person is drawing a network diagram, and explaining why > > IMPs were favoured over direct 50-kilobit connections. Later they will > > discuss TIPs and timesharing. The film is a true museum piece, but > > everything they say about the impact on society and the quantum leaps in > > technological advances appear to hold true today. > > Where does one find this video (if it is freely available that is)? I The newsgroups: alt.binaries.documentaries (if the binary hasn't expired). It is a shade over 122 megabytes to download. Then you need to unrar the parts. They explain what IMPs and TIPs are in the video. IMPs appear to be a predecessor to modems. TIPs are the same, except that they are used by timeshared mainframes, allowing several users to access the same connection to the outer world. The alternative was to have a direct connection between computers that was a mere 50 kilobits per second. IMPs were an improvement in that it could chop up information into these newfangled things (for the '70s) called "packets", then reassemble these packets at the other end on a receiving IMP before sending it to the person's computer. On a timeshared system, that means that person A, B, and C should, in theory, be able to send packets simultaneously to the same or different destinations, and not worry that the packets will get all jumbled up. Nobody ever says the word "modem". Maybe the word was not known then, but I think that was the technology being discussed. > have no idea what the preceding paragraph means (in technical terms), > but I find historical accounts of technology (and things and events in > general) are always always always interesting and can usually shed no > small amount of insight into current trends and technology. > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 05:02:41 2006 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 01:02:41 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <4442FFC4.2080408-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Jamon Camisso wrote: > For that price I think you could subscribe to Wireless Nomad with the > exact same 3M/800K speed. I've been considering them for a while now and > would be interested to hear from people who use them (linuxcaffe, etc.). > Does anyone know if a static IP is an option with them? What about more > general information? Do they use custom firmware on the WRT-54GL? Can I > use my own WRT-54GL? > > Their residential plan can be seen here: > http://wirelessnomad.ca/services/wireless/residential After 10 minutes reading their site and FAQ, I still could not understand the service and how it works. Luckily I found a link (on the site) to: http://www.govtech.net/digitalcommunities/story.php?id=97229 "Wireless Nomad, using their own DSL service as backhaul, installs custom-built meshing Wi-Fi access points on the premises of each of the co-op's members or subscribers. These provide each member with a wired DSL connection, an 802.11g wireless local area network, and high speed wireless roaming throughout the areas in the city covered at no extra charge." The rest of the article explains how the service works. Very interesting. But I hesitate because I know something always screws up when I change phone/internet (maybe it's intentional, on the part of the telco/cable co's, so that you don't make a habit of switching to better deals). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 05:06:21 2006 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 01:06:21 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Yanni Chiu wrote: > ... Luckily I found a link > (on the site) to: Oops, I think the link was from a blog that was linked from the site. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 06:54:09 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 02:54:09 -0400 Subject: experience with hdparm In-Reply-To: References: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1e55af990604162354p510f438tfef82d173d29a387@mail.gmail.com> On 4/15/06, Robert Brockway wrote: > /sbin/hdparm -a8 -c1 -d1 -k1 -m16 -u1 -W1 /dev/hda > > You can do speed testing on the disks with hdparm and also with bonnie++ Thanks for reminding me about hdparm. I'll try out your settings. Everything's backed up in triplicate.. =) For reference, speed testing with hdparm is: hdparm -t /dev/hda -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 07:06:56 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 03:06:56 -0400 Subject: experience with hdparm In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604162354p510f438tfef82d173d29a387-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <44417390.7040604@gmx.de> <1e55af990604162354p510f438tfef82d173d29a387@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604170006y20af5f51t25aadc4d385018e4@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Sy Ali wrote: > On 4/15/06, Robert Brockway wrote: > > > /sbin/hdparm -a8 -c1 -d1 -k1 -m16 -u1 -W1 /dev/hda > > > > You can do speed testing on the disks with hdparm and also with bonnie++ > > Thanks for reminding me about hdparm. I'll try out your settings. And considering that those settings gave me a 13MB/s _decrease_ in speed, I'll have to experiment at some future date. =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 10:10:23 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 06:10:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> ted leslie wrote: > go to that link and look at their coverage area ... > one think for sure with them, is you will be a early adopter and probably > have to put up with some seriously spotty access!! > > There is a bitch'n new internet access coming out soon in > Toronto and GTA .. broadband over hydro lines. > What amazing about it, is it 8Megs ...... 8Megs SYSMETRIC!!! for 5$ cheaper then basic bell adsl price. > If this makes it out ... man talk about a serious home feed!!! > It is first being targetted at condo's, and then an spread out to homes on certain > step-down power grid sectors. > If it shows up in my neighbourhood, 8Mbits/sec symetric ... thats a no brainer! Broadband over power lines is a very bad idea. It tends to cause a lot of interference to licenced radio services. The broadband service uses the same spectrum as many radio services and since the power lines weren't designed to carry those frequencies, they act like antennas. There are a couple of battles going on in the U.S. about this right now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 14:13:03 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:13:03 -0400 Subject: Hard Drives, mirroring and SATA Message-ID: <20060417141303.GA10600@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> I think I may have a failing hard drive. I haven't seen any glitches at all - everything works great - but I see this in my logwatch report: --------------------- Smartd Begin ------------------------ /dev/hda : Prefailure: Seek_Time_Performance (8) changed to 247, 248, 249 Warnings: Warning via mail to $ME at locahost: successful - 1 Time(s) Sending warning via mail to $ME at locahost ... - 1 Time(s) ---------------------- Smartd End ------------------------- So I'm worried. Should I worry? The next question is, how do I mirror a hard drive (rather than go through the hassle of reinstalling)? Can I do a dd from one drive to another? Do I need to do this with a live CD? Or is it easier to just reinstall? Lastly, should I just buy another IDE drive, or should I get an SATA drive (the difference seems to be about $4 more SATA)? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 15:07:42 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:07:42 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060415185508.GA11170-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: <20060417150742.GE4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Apr 15, 2006 at 02:55:08PM -0400, William Park wrote: > I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k > up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 > services (cable + internet, in my case). > > Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? Well other than the usual: They block port 25, they don't allow servers, you can't get a static ip, they have a bandwidth quota and will cut you off (supposedly permanently) if you exceed it, etc, then the service is usually reliable, and the speed really is what they promise (unless the server is too slow you are connecting to). I think I have noticed 3 or 4 outages in the last year, and I think the longest was 3 or 4 hours. Most were 10 to 15 minutes I think. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 15:18:34 2006 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:18:34 +0000 Subject: Items I am selling which may be of some interest Message-ID: <1145287114.15923.9.camel@gandalf> To get to the point, this is what I am selling on EBay: NT4/W95 MCSE Certification Software (New Riders) (Item 8797783639) (http://tinyurl.com/k5f9h) Lord of the Rings (theatre version, all of them are 2CD Sets): Fellowship of the Ring (Item 9127022876) (http://tinyurl.com/odt4s) The Two Towers (Item 9127023467) (http://tinyurl.com/plx3h) The Return of the King (Item 9127024003) (http://tinyurl.com/f4s6d) Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 15:23:53 2006 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060415185508.GA11170-SBOj+Tp9hCvc29vQ/UIUOA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> Message-ID: On 4/15/06, William Park wrote: > > I'm thinking about trying Roger's internet Lite account (1M down, 128k > up, $31.95 month). Partly, because I get 5% discount if I bundle 2 > services (cable + internet, in my case). > > Anyone has horror stories to talk me out of it? > Be very careful when bundling services from Rogers or anyone else, because you cannot "unbundle" without some severe penalties. Read the fine print on the agreement. >From what I understand, if you want to remove or "unbundle", you not only pay some service fee, but you have to pay back the money you saved when you first signed up! Right from the Rogers.com website, in the Terms and Conditions for it's bundles: **Early termination fees: For each Rogers Cable service category (i.e. cable TV, Internet and Rogers Home Phone?) that is terminated prior to the expiry of the 24-month commitment period, Rogers Cable shall be entitled to charge an early termination fee as liquidated damages, which fee shall be equal to the value of the Better Choice Bundles? discount received in respect of the terminated service category (to a maximum of $100 per service category if the termination occurs during months 1 through 12 of the 24-month commitment period, and to a maximum of $50 per service category if the termination occurs during months 13 through 24 of the 24-month commitment period). For any Rogers Wireless service that is terminated prior to the expiry of the relevant commitment period, early cancellation fees of $20 per month for each month remaining in the commitment period (to a maximum of $200) apply. pm *-- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 15:42:55 2006 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:42:55 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On April 15, 2006 20:12, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> What I'm waiting for is somebody getting their computer > >> zombied, and used in a DDOS, or spamblast, and being sued for > >> "contributory negligence" by the victim. This might scare some > >> sense into people. > > Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I avoid lawyers, except as drinking > buddies. > > You leave your car unlocked. A criminal steals the car and then > hits someone with it. Is that 'contributory negligence'? As far as > I know, it's not. > > On the other hand, suppose you leave your house unlocked. Someone > steals an improperly stored gun and uses it to kill another person. > Is that contributory negligence? > > Again, as far as I know, it's not. The gun owner would get dinged > for unsafe storage of a firearm. The gun owner *might* be sued by > the relatives of the deceased person, depending on the > circumstances. > > However, a firearm is *much* more obviously a dangerous device than > a computer. And killing someone is obviously much more serious than > sending spam. If someone leaves their computer unpatched, runs without anti-virus software and their computer is compromised and used for nefarious reasons, as far as I'm concerned they only contributed as much as Ontario Hydro, Future Shop, their employer, HP, Rogers, or any other entity that could peripherally be involved in having that computer on-line so that criminals and other miscreants could exploit it. If someone forgets their keys in the ignition of their car and if it is stolen, used in the commission of a crime, and while attempting to evade police, the thief causes a crash that results in fatalities, as far as I'm concerned, the owner of the car contributed as much as Canadian Tire for the tires on the car, the manufacturer for producing the vehicle in the first place, the dealership that sold the vehicle, the garage that maintains the vehicle, and any other entity that may be remotely involved in enabling that vehicle to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Given your association with the so-called "Coalition" for Gun Control propaganda machine, I'm hardly surprised that you would drag in guns into the discussion and then attempt to frame the discussion in certain ways by using words like "obviously" in order to reinforce the self-serving "guns, scary - guns, bad" message. It isn't obvious at all that guns are more dangerous than computers if one examines such a statement dispassionately. In that light, that statement makes as much sense as saying that emus are more dangerous than oranges. In the hands of the wrong person, a computer can be more dangerous than a gun. The converse is also true of course. It depends on the context and the players. For the sake of argument, let's substitute radios for computers. In this context, they can be used for the same purposes, for efficiently spreading a message. In Rwanda, the radio was used to spread a message of hatred and to advocate genocide. As a result, close to one million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered by radical Hutus mostly wielding decidedly low-tech weapons, machetes, and occasionally, guns. Does this mean that radios are "obviously" more dangerous than guns? No, it just means that in some contexts, they can be more dangerous tools than guns. So, to get back to your scenario about the break-in where the thief steals a gun, the way that the Firearms Act is worded and the thing that makes it so objectionable is that "proper storage" is poorly defined, actually by design, in order to give the Crown maximum latitude in laying charges against the victim of the theft, the owner of the gun. This is offensive on so many levels and smacks of the "hooliganism" charges under Communist regimes that were leveled against people when the state couldn't find anything else to charge them with. If a gun is stolen, the first inclination of the police is to lay a charge of improper storage, the warped logic being, if it was stored properly, it couldn't have been stolen. I contend that, silly "safe storage" laws aside, even if one hangs a gun on their mantlepiece and it is stolen and subsequently used in the commission of a crime, that the fault lays completely with the thief, not the owner of the gun whose gun was stolen, not Mike Harris (or the politician you blame for everything) for cutting back on programs, not with his mommy who obviously didn't give the miscreant enough hugs, etc. Unfortunately, attempting to blame everyone else but the miscreants for their actions seems be all too prevalent in our society. > So the onus would be on the person initiating the suit to show that > they had suffered serious monetary losses, and that the owner of > the computer should have taken measures to prevent its > misappropriation. Who's going to decide which measures are sufficient? I hope we never see the day that we see such lawsuits for it will only hurt everyone, through higher fees for Internet access, computers, insurance, more hassles, more bureaucracy, the general tendency to over-regulate everything, concentration of power in the hands of larger players, and reduced innovation. The same chaotic system that enables spammers to flourish also enables small players to come up with disruptive ideas and technologies that enable them to take on bigger, established players. I'll stick with the chaotic system we have now, thank you. > Furthermore, as a practical matter it's not much use suing > individuals unless they have deep pockets. It might be more > effective to sue the manufacturer of the operating system. They may > have deep pockets, but the pockets are full of lawyers. What if the OS in question is Linux? Who are you going to sue then? I would not be surprised if most of the spam on the Internet today originates from a Linux server that hasn't been compromised and is doing exactly what it was designed to do, pump out lots of mail reliably, something which the Linux bigots claim Windows can't do reliably anyway. In other words, to cop a phrase from the gun debate, "Operating systems don't send spam. People send spam." :) In the many years I've been running Windows, I've never run anti-virus software on any of my Windows machines and none of them have ever been infected. I still have an NT 4 Server that was first commissioned in 1999. I can't tell you the last time it was patched and I couldn't care less because it doesn't do anything critical. I only turn it on occasionally when I need to run some apps that will only run on that particular OS with that patch level. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of such machines out there that are frozen in time and can never move forward without much effort. And yes, some of them happen to run Linux or BSD with known issues. All this zeal to find fault with the owners of machines that are supposedly turned into spam zombies is really just a proxy for Microsoft bashing that is all too common amongst Linux bigots, which is silly, since there is no proof whatsoever that the majority of spam originates from Windows machines anyway. How are these spam zombies supposedly sending out mail now that most ISPs are already blocking port 25? I suspect that the majority of spam still originates from Unix-like systems at spammer-friendly ISPs. As long as idiots buy the stuff that spammers sell, spammers will continue plying their trade. If they flash enough money, they will always find an ISP willing to look the other way. If they can't, they can always find an unwitting ISP that they can defraud of services by using a stolen credit card or a legitimate credit card obtained via identity theft. Most spam has a profit motive behind it. The way to reduce or eliminate the profit in spamming is not with these misguided "certified e-mail" schemes that any spammer with half a brain can circumvent easily but to attack them at the source, by prosecuting the spammers for their criminal activities. That is easier said than done when many of the players are adept at evading the authorities, located in jurisdictions where their activities may not be considered illegal, or located in jurisdictions where it is easy to buy off the authorities. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 17:23:10 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:23:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <4443698F.6030806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 06:10:23AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Broadband over power lines is a very bad idea. It tends to cause a lot > of interference to licenced radio services. The broadband service uses > the same spectrum as many radio services and since the power lines > weren't designed to carry those frequencies, they act like antennas. > > There are a couple of battles going on in the U.S. about this right now. What if they only do it where the power lines are underground? There seems to be a number of places in europe using it without major complaints about radio interference. There also doesn't seem to be many places left in europe with above ground power wires. They also have the advantage there, that by running double the voltage, the need a lot less transformers around (although they are bigger), since you can run a lot further from the transformer before the voltage drop is significant. This makes it much cheaper to install the network gear at the transformer for an area than it is here where we have a transformer every few hundred meters. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 18:16:02 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:16:02 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > If someone leaves their computer unpatched, runs without anti-virus > software and their computer is compromised and used for nefarious > reasons, as far as I'm concerned they only contributed as much as > Ontario Hydro, Future Shop, their employer, HP, Rogers, or any other > entity that could peripherally be involved in having that computer > on-line so that criminals and other miscreants could exploit it. You are right, *but* once the phenomenon becomes rampant people are told by their sheriff, employer, car maker, and other authorities, to lock the g*d d**n car up already or start paying fines made specially for people who leave cars unlocked. That time is now. >> So the onus would be on the person initiating the suit to show that >> they had suffered serious monetary losses, and that the owner of >> the computer should have taken measures to prevent its >> misappropriation. > > Who's going to decide which measures are sufficient? I hope we never > see the day that we see such lawsuits for it will only hurt everyone, > through higher fees for Internet access, computers, insurance, more > hassles, more bureaucracy, the general tendency to over-regulate > everything, concentration of power in the hands of larger players, I was proposing a *voluntary* system where ISPs participate. No obligation on any side. Users can always take their business elsewhere. But users and ISPs in such an arrangement will save money because much less of their bandwidth and virus filter load, and mailbox sizes, will be clogged with spam. With present day numbers, in many places this may mean halving the size of user mailboxes. > What if the OS in question is Linux? Who are you going to sue then? I > would not be surprised if most of the spam on the Internet today > originates from a Linux server that hasn't been compromised and is > doing exactly what it was designed to do, pump out lots of mail > reliably, something which the Linux bigots claim Windows can't do > reliably anyway. In other words, to cop a phrase from the gun debate, > "Operating systems don't send spam. People send spam." :) True. But port 25 incoming has nothing to do with spam sending. Current botnets send spam by forging packets or so it seems. > issues. All this zeal to find fault with the owners of machines that > are supposedly turned into spam zombies is really just a proxy for > Microsoft bashing that is all too common amongst Linux bigots, which > is silly, since there is no proof whatsoever that the majority of > spam originates from Windows machines anyway. Nobody said anything about specific operating systems. I wrote that it may be better for clueless users to have qualified people secure their systems, instead of their friendly neighbor using an illicit copy of norton av or whatever. And if so, better install a Linux version since it seems to be easier to secure and stays up longer. After all, this is a linux user list, no ? > How are these spam zombies supposedly sending out mail now that most > ISPs are already blocking port 25? I suspect that the majority of Port 25 has nothing to do with it on the sending side. The packets are forged, header, origin port and everything. > obtained via identity theft. Most spam has a profit motive behind it. > The way to reduce or eliminate the profit in spamming is not with > these misguided "certified e-mail" schemes that any spammer with half > a brain can circumvent easily but to attack them at the source, by > prosecuting the spammers for their criminal activities. That is > easier said than done when many of the players are adept at evading > the authorities, located in jurisdictions where their activities may > not be considered illegal, or located in jurisdictions where it is > easy to buy off the authorities. This is not about certified email, it is about an idea I had to charge a minimal sum in escrow, by the ISP, for sent mail. If a 5xx response is not seen in a week, the fee is waived. Additionally there would be a quota of 'allowed' spam to cover unintended mistakes. This would give ISPs a small button to push to make users keep their systems clean. About your idea that Unix machines send the majority of spam, I do not agree. The largest spam-originating countries are well known, USA is one of them, and due to the low penetration of Linux it is logical that the majority of spam comes from something else. The mahority of installations are Windows machines. Spam origins vary widely enough to eliminate the idea that they come from a few machines. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 19:47:15 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <50454.207.188.65.194.1145303235.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Given your association with the so-called "Coalition" for Gun Control > propaganda machine, I'm hardly surprised that you would drag in guns > into the discussion and then attempt to frame the discussion in > certain ways by using words like "obviously" in order to reinforce > the self-serving "guns, scary - guns, bad" message. If TLUG was ambivalent about a discussion of Microsoft intrigue, I'm sure they are *really* ambivalent about a debade on guns. So I'll respond to a couple of points here (because they have been made in public) and then we can move the debate off list. (Anyone who is fascinated by this topic is welcome to email me: I'll put you on the CC list. I don't expect there will be too many.) My association with the Coalition for Gun Control is as Secretary and one of the founding members. I'm quite proud its achievements. Reading the quote marks around "Coalition" as a 'so called', I draw readers attention to the Coalition web page: http://www.guncontrol.ca/English/Home/Home.htm Notice that there are 350 organizations - including police associations and public health organizations - that have endorsed the Coalition. In my book, that makes it real. I feel a bit foolish saying this - it does seem a bit obvious - but I think most people would agree that guns are more dangerous than say, radios or computers - or emus. Sure, radios and computers are like anything, they can be used for a nefarious purpose. You could bury people under a pile of dead emus, for example. But computers and radios - and probably emus - have other uses. On the other hand, the primary purpose of a gun is to maim or kill something, at a distance. (Yes, I know about Practical Shooters, Target Shooting, Collecting. I argue that those applications are not the Primary Purpose.) Incidentally, before I get accused of this, I'm not in favour of banning guns. (There are some exceptions: you can't own a Uzi submachine gun, you can't own a grenade launcher..) People are welcome to own and shoot, as long as they store the guns properly and obey the regulations. > I contend that, silly "safe storage" laws aside, Having met parents who have lost a kid because the safe storage rules weren't followed, I don't see them as silly at all. I've been in many debates on this topic, some public, some private, and I'm willing to continue the discussion - off list, and if the temperature can be kept to a reasonable level. If anyone would like to read the arguments for gun control, there are many documents on the Coalition web page. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 19:55:38 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:55:38 -0400 Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20060417195538.GG4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 09:16:02PM +0300, Peter wrote: > True. But port 25 incoming has nothing to do with spam sending. Current > botnets send spam by forging packets or so it seems. Sure it does. It has a lot to do with sending spam. If your ISP blocks outgoing port 25, then you can't make a connection to any mailserver anywhere, so you can't send any email at all. The only place you can send email is through the ISP email server, and then they have a log of who did it and when. It is probably the single most effective thing an ISP can do, much as I personally hate not being able to do my own email server. > Port 25 has nothing to do with it on the sending side. The packets are > forged, header, origin port and everything. You can't forge the destination, which is port 25 on some mail server. It has everything to do with sending. You have to connect to deliver. > About your idea that Unix machines send the majority of spam, I do not > agree. The largest spam-originating countries are well known, USA is one > of them, and due to the low penetration of Linux it is logical that the > majority of spam comes from something else. The mahority of > installations are Windows machines. Spam origins vary widely enough to > eliminate the idea that they come from a few machines. Certainly windows machines with malware on them on a high speed permanently on connection is a major source of spam. It is too bad a lot of ISPs do not block port 25 outgoing, although even if they do email can still be sent through the mail server of the isp if the malware is clever enough to do that. If the ISP then doesn't respond to spam complaints, well then there isn't much you can do. The ISP does have to take some interest in preventing machines on their network from being a source of spam. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 20:11:34 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:11:34 -0400 Subject: Best mount options for USB flash drives? Message-ID: <20060417201134.GB17187@waltdnes.org> Flash drives have a finite (large, but still finite) number of writes before a sector "wears out". I just got an MP3 player and am charging the internal battery... via USB... nice. The player is formatted fat32 according to "fdisk -l". I assume that "noatime" is a necessity. Even with a FAT32 fs, the "ls" command will cause the "access time" attribute for a file to be rewritten. "noatime" overrides that. I'm not sure whether or not "sync" is even possible on a FAT32 mount, but my gut feeling is that "async" should be "kinder and gentler" on the flash drive, because it gathers together a bunch of separate writes into one big write. Does USB2 versus USB1.1 make any difference? Am I right, wrong, out to lunch, whatever? -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 20:59:56 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:59:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060417172310.GF4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060417165956.0c26d487.tleslie@tcn.net> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:23:10 -0400 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 06:10:23AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > > Broadband over power lines is a very bad idea. It tends to cause a lot > > of interference to licenced radio services. The broadband service uses > > the same spectrum as many radio services and since the power lines > > weren't designed to carry those frequencies, they act like antennas. > > > > There are a couple of battles going on in the U.S. about this right now. > Just talked to the CEO of the company doing the roll out, he says thats old news, and the newer equipment deals with it better, they still have issues with HAM ops, but Canada has given it there blessing. -tl > What if they only do it where the power lines are underground? > > There seems to be a number of places in europe using it without major > complaints about radio interference. There also doesn't seem to be many > places left in europe with above ground power wires. They also have the > advantage there, that by running double the voltage, the need a lot less > transformers around (although they are bigger), since you can run a lot > further from the transformer before the voltage drop is significant. > This makes it much cheaper to install the network gear at the > transformer for an area than it is here where we have a transformer > every few hundred meters. > > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 21:09:20 2006 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:09:20 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: Life After the Bubble Burst Message-ID: <1145308160.25682.6.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> My April blog entry is out and discusses poverty and employment in Ontario, and whether computers should be considered a luxury item anymore. http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_april_2006.html -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 21:21:54 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:21:54 -0400 Subject: Best mount options for USB flash drives? In-Reply-To: <20060417201134.GB17187-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417201134.GB17187@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060417212154.GH4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 04:11:34PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Flash drives have a finite (large, but still finite) number of writes > before a sector "wears out". I just got an MP3 player and am charging > the internal battery... via USB... nice. > > The player is formatted fat32 according to "fdisk -l". I assume that > "noatime" is a necessity. Even with a FAT32 fs, the "ls" command will > cause the "access time" attribute for a file to be rewritten. "noatime" > overrides that. I'm not sure whether or not "sync" is even possible on > a FAT32 mount, but my gut feeling is that "async" should be "kinder and > gentler" on the flash drive, because it gathers together a bunch of > separate writes into one big write. Does USB2 versus USB1.1 make any > difference? > > Am I right, wrong, out to lunch, whatever? sync became an option recently. It used to ignore it. It is not a nice thing to do to the flash driver, and makes accesses very very slow. fat doesn't have a concept of atime or ctime, only mtime, so it does nothing assuming it is even allowed by mount. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 21:22:34 2006 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:22:34 -0400 Subject: PegaSoft - Tomorrow - A System for Managing Game Entities Message-ID: <1145308955.25682.14.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> The next PegaSoft dinner meeting is tomorrow night at 7:00 pm at the Bedford Road Swiss Chalet, on Bloor Street near the St. George subway stop. RSVP Mel Wilson if you plan to attend (http://www.pegasoft.ca/people.html). Attendance is free. The presentation topic will be the article "A System for Managing Game Entities" written by Matthew Harmon from the book "Game Programming Gems IV". The organization and inter-communication of cooperating AI agents in a computer game setting. Also on the agenda: PegaSoft's participation with CLUE at LinuxWorld. Also, the latest update on PegaSoft's online game project. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 23:37:54 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:37:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060417172310.GF4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 06:10:23AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Broadband over power lines is a very bad idea. It tends to cause a lot >> of interference to licenced radio services. The broadband service uses >> the same spectrum as many radio services and since the power lines >> weren't designed to carry those frequencies, they act like antennas. >> >> There are a couple of battles going on in the U.S. about this right now. > > What if they only do it where the power lines are underground? There's still potential leakage within the building. > > There seems to be a number of places in europe using it without major > complaints about radio interference. There also doesn't seem to be many > places left in europe with above ground power wires. They also have the > advantage there, that by running double the voltage, the need a lot less > transformers around (although they are bigger), since you can run a lot > further from the transformer before the voltage drop is significant. > This makes it much cheaper to install the network gear at the > transformer for an area than it is here where we have a transformer > every few hundred meters. You don't appear to understand quite how our electrical system is configured. What we have here, is a 240V distribution network, with the center point grounded. This means that when the two sides are balanced there is no current in the grounded "neutral" wire. Even when they are not perfectly balanced, only the difference current is carried by the neutral wire. As a result of this, the transmission efficiencies are comparable. It also means that consumer level devices generally have only 120V in them, which is far safer than 240V. As far as I know, this sort of system doesn't occur in Europe. Also, European transformers will be larger, due to the lower power line frequencies, which required more iron than 60 Hz power. Transform core size is determined by power levels and frequency and not by voltage. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 23:48:08 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:48:08 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060417165956.0c26d487.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20060417165956.0c26d487.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <44442938.5000805@rogers.com> ted leslie wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:23:10 -0400 > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 06:10:23AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >>> Broadband over power lines is a very bad idea. It tends to cause a lot >>> of interference to licenced radio services. The broadband service uses >>> the same spectrum as many radio services and since the power lines >>> weren't designed to carry those frequencies, they act like antennas. >>> >>> There are a couple of battles going on in the U.S. about this right now. > > Just talked to the CEO of the company doing the roll out, > he says thats old news, and the newer equipment deals with it better, > they still have issues with HAM ops, but Canada has given it there blessing. > -tl > One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is that such a service must not cause interference to a licenced service and must accept interference from a licenced service. This means that if there is, for example, interference to a "Ham" or from one, it is the reponibility of the power company to resolve the problem. Unfortunately the neighbours are more likely to blame the Ham, should they experience interference. Then there are the various mobile radio services, aviation, short wave broadcast etc., that have the potential for interference. The same situation occurs with the cable TV channels, but the cable companies use coaxial cable, which is designed for this use and does a good job at preventing leakage. The same cannot be said about power lines. As far as it being "old news", nothing can be further from the truth, as it's an ongoing problem in the U.S.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 23:58:22 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:58:22 -0400 Subject: Hard Drives, mirroring and SATA In-Reply-To: <20060417141303.GA10600-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417141303.GA10600@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1e55af990604171658t6ebedaedwd0d57c9f05f1cf86@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > The next question is, how do I mirror a hard drive (rather than go > through the hassle of reinstalling)? Can I do a dd from one drive to > another? Do I need to do this with a live CD? Or is it easier to just > reinstall? Mount both hard drives, then do: rsync -av --delete --progress /path/to/source/ /path/to/dest/ I do this to back up to secondary and tertiary hard drives. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 17 23:58:54 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:58:54 -0400 Subject: Hard Drives, mirroring and SATA In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604171658t6ebedaedwd0d57c9f05f1cf86-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417141303.GA10600@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <1e55af990604171658t6ebedaedwd0d57c9f05f1cf86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604171658u732aca0co11569a61d400d829@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Sy Ali wrote: > Mount both hard drives, then do: > > rsync -av --delete --progress /path/to/source/ /path/to/dest/ > > I do this to back up to secondary and tertiary hard drives. Urr.. of course I mirrorred the partitioning scheme and do this rsync for each partition. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 00:21:29 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:21:29 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: Life After the Bubble Burst In-Reply-To: <1145308160.25682.6.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1145308160.25682.6.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <1e55af990604171721x12a8bb5ak6eee22ed6412775b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Ken Burtch wrote: > My April blog entry is out and discusses poverty and employment in > Ontario, and whether computers should be considered a luxury item > anymore. > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_april_2006.html I can say from exposure and discussion that the situation isn't like most people believe. The "poverty line" is a strange state where people are even more desperate than the rest of us to spend any surplus on entertainment. This could be cigarettes, coffee, drinking, cable tv, gambling and.. internet access. People who aren't addicted to alcohol, caffeine or nicotine often turn to television and the internet. Sometimes when it becomes a tradeoff one sort of person goes one way and another goes the other way. Television is awfully mind-numbing stuff, and so to is the internet. Computers end up replacing television for some people, because the bill really is significant enough to make it a choice. The fact that the internet is a job search tool makes it tempting for many to go that route. That's about the poverty line, where things like welfare can be depended upon. Below that.. a safe place to sleep becomes a luxury. Above that, computers become an elaborate part of the support network.. they're required to be used for various kinds of government services.. they're also an integral part of the job search. If the government responded to poverty with a free $50 computer and paid-for low-speed internet it would indeed be well-received. This isn't so hard to do, considering things like welfare startup fees are allowable for essentials like pots and a bed.. I'd be willing to bet that if a computer were listed it would go over just fine. Now for the truth.. I'm adding to the problem by hiring work outside of the country. Good on-site IT people need to be here.. but good remote brainpower can be found anywhere, and for a whole heck of a lot less. I'm able to keep my job and make a living because the business can keep its costs down. The upside is that I'd never look outside of the country for core business partners and management (or salespeople!!). Really smart grunts can be found overseas.. but really smart partners can't. Sales and service people ought to have intimate cultural awareness, so I'd never go overseas for that.. even if such services could be performed remotely. I'm willing to charge more to provide better service, because people really are willing to spend more to get good service. Especially once they've tasted big-company crap like Dell's customer service / technical support. There are some things which will never be done well enough remotely, and high-level communication is one of those things. If ever I figure out how to make high-level communications work well remotely.. I may well move away.. and cut my pay (I'm paid less, the company makes more money, everyone gets a better cut of the profits.. it all works out, while I work on my tan) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 00:55:53 2006 From: paul-fQIO8zZcxYtFkWKT+BUv2w at public.gmane.org (Paul Nash) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:55:53 -0400 Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <444426D2.5090603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> Message-ID: >You don't appear to understand quite how our electrical system is >configured. What we have here, is a 240V distribution network, with the >center point grounded. This has got way off-topic, but that's only part of the story. Without going into too much technicality (I last build big power grids in the early '80s, so the details are getting hazy), the major characteristic of the "not-North-America" approach is to use 3-phase power. The cool bit about 3-phase reticulation is that 3 x 100 amp feeder cables (the three phases) with *NO* neutral conductor, feeding a delta-wired transformer, will deliver 300 amps of useable current at the full rated voltage (distribution is usually 11kV; this gives 3.3MVA useable). In a split-phase system, 2 x 100 amp feeders *with a 100amp neutral* (total of 3 x 100 amp cables) on an 11kV circuit will give a maximum of 1.1MVA, or a third of the power. The North American system was designed as a kludge to be able to deliver 240V power to appliances like stoves and water heaters while still providing 120V power to most other devices. If it *far* from optimal. Having a grounded neutral and limited residual current protection are entirely separate debates, which would give European safety regulators an absolute field say. To get this back on track, it's like the NTSC and PAL standards, which were butchered together to maintain backwards compatibility, or *gasp* *shock horror* *IT content* Windoze' various layers of backwards compatibility. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 02:04:42 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:04:42 -0400 Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> Paul Nash wrote: >> You don't appear to understand quite how our electrical system is >> configured. What we have here, is a 240V distribution network, with the >> center point grounded. > > This has got way off-topic, but that's only part of the story. Without > going into too much technicality (I last build big power grids in the early > '80s, so the details are getting hazy), the major characteristic of the > "not-North-America" approach is to use 3-phase power. 3-phase to homes elsewhere??? It's certainly used in business & industry here. > > The cool bit about 3-phase reticulation is that 3 x 100 amp feeder cables > (the three phases) with *NO* neutral conductor, feeding a delta-wired > transformer, will deliver 300 amps of useable current at the full rated > voltage (distribution is usually 11kV; this gives 3.3MVA useable). Another nice feature of 3 phase is constant power, no matter the phase angle. > > In a split-phase system, 2 x 100 amp feeders *with a 100amp neutral* (total > of 3 x 100 amp cables) on an 11kV circuit will give a maximum of 1.1MVA, or > a third of the power. > > The North American system was designed as a kludge to be able to deliver > 240V power to appliances like stoves and water heaters while still > providing 120V power to most other devices. If it *far* from optimal. > > Having a grounded neutral and limited residual current protection are > entirely separate debates, which would give European safety regulators an > absolute field say. > > To get this back on track, it's like the NTSC and PAL standards, which were > butchered together to maintain backwards compatibility, or *gasp* *shock > horror* *IT content* Windoze' various layers of backwards compatibility. > > paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 02:28:30 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <4444493A.7080000-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> Message-ID: <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Another nice feature of 3 phase is constant power, no matter the phase > angle. IANAPG (I am not a power guy), but: Phase angle between voltage and current? Isn't that the power factor? PF is a huge issue in industry. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 02:38:29 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:38:29 -0400 Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <44445125.8020908@rogers.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Another nice feature of 3 phase is constant power, no matter the phase >> angle. > > IANAPG (I am not a power guy), but: > > Phase angle between voltage and current? Isn't that the power factor? PF > is a huge issue in industry. Sorry about not being clearer. In single phase 60 Hz power, there are 120 power peaks per second or 2 per cycle, when the voltage and current are maximum (assuming non-reactive load). With 3 phase, the power is constant throughout the cycle, with no peaks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 03:15:51 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <44445125.8020908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <44445125.8020908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <50253.207.188.65.194.1145330151.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Sorry about not being clearer. In single phase 60 Hz power, there are > 120 power peaks per second or 2 per cycle, when the voltage and current > are maximum (assuming non-reactive load). With 3 phase, the power is > constant throughout the cycle, with no peaks. OK, I get it. Also, as I recall, a three-phase induction motor has better starting torque than a two-phase motor. Peter > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 05:51:33 2006 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 01:51:33 -0400 Subject: xine on FC3 In-Reply-To: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> References: <1145239867.4523.25.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <20060418015133.3c66e2ea.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:11:07 -0400 Paul King wrote: > I finally have xine working on Fedora Core 3, but it required a bunch of > RPM files which I found in various nameless, faceless RPM distro sites. > > I have had some problems with sound (it would cut out when I stop and > restart a video). Paul, I installed xine and gxine from source, and it works pretty well. I do have problems with sound cutting out, but I have assumed that this is due to my computer being a PII/350. I figure I need something faster. Wait until I try my DVD player. :) -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 01:14:46 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 04:14:46 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <20060417195538.GG4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151603.02179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <50096.207.188.65.194.1145146374.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <200604171142.57595.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20060417195538.GG4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 09:16:02PM +0300, Peter wrote: >> True. But port 25 incoming has nothing to do with spam sending. Current >> botnets send spam by forging packets or so it seems. > > Sure it does. It has a lot to do with sending spam. If your ISP blocks > outgoing port 25, then you can't make a connection to any mailserver > anywhere, so you can't send any email at all. The only place you can > send email is through the ISP email server, and then they have a log of > who did it and when. It is probably the single most effective thing an > ISP can do, much as I personally hate not being able to do my own email > server. But that would be a 'properly' (ahem) configured ISP. We are talking about the _other_ ones. Plus, you said, yourself, what is wrong with that. Obviously the blocking of outgoing 25 won't pull in many customers at a colocated server farm or any ISP interested in supplying power users in general. >> Port 25 has nothing to do with it on the sending side. The packets are >> forged, header, origin port and everything. > > You can't forge the destination, which is port 25 on some mail server. > It has everything to do with sending. You have to connect to deliver. Yes, you can. The case of a 'bsofh' ISP is not what I was considering. Most spam origins aren't like that at all. They are _too_ lax. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 01:18:25 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 04:18:25 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Best mount options for USB flash drives? In-Reply-To: <20060417201134.GB17187-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417201134.GB17187@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Walter Dnes wrote: > Flash drives have a finite (large, but still finite) number of writes > before a sector "wears out". I just got an MP3 player and am charging > the internal battery... via USB... nice. > > The player is formatted fat32 according to "fdisk -l". I assume that > "noatime" is a necessity. Even with a FAT32 fs, the "ls" command will > cause the "access time" attribute for a file to be rewritten. "noatime" > overrides that. I'm not sure whether or not "sync" is even possible on > a FAT32 mount, but my gut feeling is that "async" should be "kinder and > gentler" on the flash drive, because it gathers together a bunch of > separate writes into one big write. Does USB2 versus USB1.1 make any > difference? My current options for automounting cameras and flash drives are: fs="vfat"; options="rw,async,noatime,users,exec,uid=plp,gid=users,umask=000";; additionally, automount is run with --timeout=2 which causes fast unmounts. Fast enough that you have to be real quick to pull the drive out before it stops flashing. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 06:50:12 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:50:12 +0300 (IDT) Subject: C struct construct question Message-ID: Hi all, I found an unusual C construct in Asterisk source code and I am looking for an explanation. Of course I cannot find one online. Here is a quote: static const struct ast_channel_tech local_tech = { .type = type, .description = tdesc, .capabilities = -1, .requester = local_request, .send_digit = local_digit, .call = local_call, .hangup = local_hangup, .answer = local_answer, .read = local_read, .write = local_write, .exception = local_read, .indicate = local_indicate, .fixup = local_fixup, .send_html = local_sendhtml, }; how does this work ? References ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 08:05:02 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:05:02 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Inuktut character set Message-ID: For example, to render this page: http://collections.ic.gc.ca/arviat/htmlipg/3placesif/3placesi0.html Where can I find hard data (strandards etc) ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 08:12:15 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:12:15 +0300 (IDT) Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <44445125.8020908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <44445125.8020908@rogers.com> Message-ID: >>> Another nice feature of 3 phase is constant power, no matter the phase >>> angle. >> >> IANAPG (I am not a power guy), but: >> >> Phase angle between voltage and current? Isn't that the power factor? PF >> is a huge issue in industry. > > Sorry about not being clearer. In single phase 60 Hz power, there are > 120 power peaks per second or 2 per cycle, when the voltage and current > are maximum (assuming non-reactive load). With 3 phase, the power is > constant throughout the cycle, with no peaks. In 2-phase quadrature power you have the exact same result. That is not the reason why 3-ph is better. The reason is copper line weight per unit length and power transmitted is maximum, for a given voltage, and it is much easier to generate high power dc from it (especially with 19th century equipment). IANAPG too, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 08:53:03 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:53:03 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Will certified e-mail stop spam? (was: unsubscribing... etc) In-Reply-To: <20060416215259.GA16407-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <1144938906.443e619a12eb3@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <200604151543.12710.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <44425F77.1040301@telly.org> <20060416215259.GA16407@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: An example of what can happen when 'nobody cares' about a 'slight misconfiguration': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/13/d-link_time_row_escelates/ Okay, this time it's a manufacturer. Next time, it's a software update that causes Xx10^4 computers to do an effective DDNS on an unsuspecting free service. Who pays for that ? Okay, this is not email, but it clearly illustrates the problem. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 10:13:04 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 06:13:04 -0400 Subject: 380v vs 240v power In-Reply-To: <50253.207.188.65.194.1145330151.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <4444493A.7080000@rogers.com> <50152.207.188.65.194.1145327310.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <44445125.8020908@rogers.com> <50253.207.188.65.194.1145330151.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4444BBB0.2090002@rogers.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Sorry about not being clearer. In single phase 60 Hz power, there are >> 120 power peaks per second or 2 per cycle, when the voltage and current >> are maximum (assuming non-reactive load). With 3 phase, the power is >> constant throughout the cycle, with no peaks. > > OK, I get it. Also, as I recall, a three-phase induction motor has better > starting torque than a two-phase motor. Curious. I see you're in EE at Ryerson, which is where I learned most of what I know about 3 phase power, in the AC Circuits course. However, it's been 20 years since I looked at that stuff. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 10:30:31 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:30:31 +0300 (IDT) Subject: more fud, this time electronic Message-ID: That's a neat trick. Moving 4.5 million records of pages that hardly score traffic to a Windows server, and then seeing a 5% gain in web space share as a result of it. http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2006/04/17/perens_launches_open_source_domain_parking_service.html Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 13:56:48 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:56:48 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <4442DB57.4070701-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414171720.4066.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <200604141407.13495.shrike@heinous.org> <4442DB57.4070701@vianet.ca> Message-ID: <20060418135648.11653.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Joseph Kubik wrote: >>>> P.S. The screen is still stuck at "running /sbin/loader". Although the >>>> cursor is flashing ubnder that line, I guess for my purposes it's >>>> "hung". >>>> >>>> >>> I found a couple of references to people that had trouble w this m/b and >>> anaconda but no answers to their queries. >>> I tried running the installation w 'linux text -noprobe' but I'm getting >>> the exact same problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >>> >>> >> Try Text mode, with "noapic or apic=0 or apic=off OK, I tried that. It's still hanging at the exact same place. Chris >> -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 14:27:18 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:27:18 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <4442DB2F.8040107-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414180033.GA12408@localhost> <4442DB2F.8040107@vianet.ca> Message-ID: <20060418142718.20512.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Stephen wrote: >> Try a live CD distribution to check the hardware out first ! Looks like the hardware is okay - Agnula LIve is running. I knew the hardware was okay as I have installed W98 on 3 GB of the hard drive. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 15:00:27 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:00:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <444426D2.5090603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 07:37:54PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > There's still potential leakage within the building. Sure, but is that that much compared to non insulated wires on a pole? > You don't appear to understand quite how our electrical system is > configured. What we have here, is a 240V distribution network, with the > center point grounded. This means that when the two sides are balanced > there is no current in the grounded "neutral" wire. Even when they are > not perfectly balanced, only the difference current is carried by the > neutral wire. As a result of this, the transmission efficiencies are > comparable. It also means that consumer level devices generally have > only 120V in them, which is far safer than 240V. As far as I know, this > sort of system doesn't occur in Europe. Also, European transformers > will be larger, due to the lower power line frequencies, which required > more iron than 60 Hz power. Transform core size is determined by power > levels and frequency and not by voltage. I do know how it is setup. I was talking about the difference on a single phase and ground. Europe runs 3 phase with 240V between a phase and ground and about 400V between phases. Here we have 2 phase with 120V between phase and ground, and 240V between the phases. Industrial may get 3 phase power, but households don't. They certainly run larger transformers (50hz vs 60hz is not that big a difference, but it is something), but they also run larger areas from one transformer (after all, if you loose 1V over distance X, and you allow 1% drop on your line, starting out at twice as much, means you can go twice the distance before you lose 1%.) As for safer, well sure. I must admit I haven't liked being zapped by either one. Of course 120V can kill you too. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 15:06:39 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:06:39 -0400 Subject: C struct construct question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060418150639.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 09:50:12AM +0300, Peter wrote: > > Hi all, > > I found an unusual C construct in Asterisk source code and I am looking > for an explanation. Of course I cannot find one online. Here is a quote: > > static const struct ast_channel_tech local_tech = { > .type = type, > .description = tdesc, > .capabilities = -1, > .requester = local_request, > .send_digit = local_digit, > .call = local_call, > .hangup = local_hangup, > .answer = local_answer, > .read = local_read, > .write = local_write, > .exception = local_read, > .indicate = local_indicate, > .fixup = local_fixup, > .send_html = local_sendhtml, > }; > > how does this work ? References ? I think it is creating a static contant structure named local_tech of type 'strict ast_channel_tech' and initializing the contants by specifying which members of the struct to set to what value. Given you use local_tech.type to access it, it makes sense to be allowed to do .type = type when initializing it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 15:15:29 2006 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C struct construct question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Peter wrote: > I found an unusual C construct in Asterisk source code and I am looking for > an explanation. Of course I cannot find one online. Here is a quote: > static const struct ast_channel_tech local_tech = { > .type = type, > .description = tdesc, > .capabilities = -1, > .requester = local_request, > .send_digit = local_digit, > .call = local_call, > .hangup = local_hangup, > .answer = local_answer, > .read = local_read, > .write = local_write, > .exception = local_read, > .indicate = local_indicate, > .fixup = local_fixup, > .send_html = local_sendhtml, }; > how does this work ? References ? This syntax specifies which field in struct ast_channel_tech receives which value, as opposed to having to list the the values in the same order as they were declared in. Have a look at: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.0/gcc/Designated-Inits.html That web page is for gcc version 4.1.0, but that feature seems to have been in gcc since the first 3.x release. HTH JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 15:41:33 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:41:33 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418150027.GI4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> > As for safer, well sure. I must admit I haven't liked being zapped by > either one. Of course 120V can kill you too. A British electrical engineer once told me that there are a disproportionate number of deaths by 240 volt systems due to electrocution. He then added that there are a disproportionate number of deaths from 120 volt systems by fire. His only conclusion was to learn from both systems and exceed the code whenever practical. E.g. GFICs everywhere you can put them, Arc fault wherever you can put them, a couple gauges thicker wire than you'd normally use, more spacious device boxes, greater separation of the wiring, judicious use of nail guards, etc etc. Of course he was an EE, not an Electrician. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 15:55:06 2006 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C struct construct question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, John Vetterli wrote: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Peter wrote: > > I found an unusual C construct in Asterisk source code and I am looking for > > an explanation. Of course I cannot find one online. Here is a quote: > > static const struct ast_channel_tech local_tech = { > > .type = type, > > .description = tdesc, > > .capabilities = -1, > > .requester = local_request, > > .send_digit = local_digit, > > .call = local_call, > > .hangup = local_hangup, > > .answer = local_answer, > > .read = local_read, > > .write = local_write, > > .exception = local_read, > > .indicate = local_indicate, > > .fixup = local_fixup, > > .send_html = local_sendhtml, }; > > how does this work ? References ? > > This syntax specifies which field in struct ast_channel_tech receives > which value, as opposed to having to list the the values in the same order > as they were declared in. Have a look at: > > http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.0/gcc/Designated-Inits.html > > That web page is for gcc version 4.1.0, but that feature seems to have > been in gcc since the first 3.x release. Yes, and this is a C99 addition. > HTH > JV --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 16:27:48 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:27:48 +0100 Subject: Linux expo Message-ID: <44451384.2040501@zen.co.uk> Just to wish the group best of Luck at the Expo, next week, Paul Sutton (UK) -- http://www.zleap.net http://www.openoffice.org http://www.linux.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.1 GIT d S: a C+++ UL++++ P+ L++ W++ N+ W--- O! V! PS+ Y! t+++ 5 X+++ R tv- b- DI! D++ G e H! r! z? -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK---- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 16:31:37 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Inuktut character set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Peter | For example, to render this page: | | http://collections.ic.gc.ca/arviat/htmlipg/3placesif/3placesi0.html | | Where can I find hard data (strandards etc) ? At one point, I helped my daughter fix a Gnome input method for Inuktitut. So I new some of this. But I've forgotten. Inuktitut can be written several different ways. For instance, the Greenlanders use the Roman alphabet. In Canada, some use the Roman Alphabet and some use an syllabary based on Pittman Shorthand symbols. Here as a link that might contain correct information: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/inuktitut.htm Recent versions of Unicode have code points for the Inuktitut syllabary. Unfortunately, many folks use some MS Windows 3.x hack (codepage?) to encode text. I don't know what the page you mention is doing. The page says it is encoded in iso-8859-1 which just cannot do the job. Perhaps the "nunacom" font they use overlays Roman glyphs with Inuktitut glyphs. Yuck. As far as I understand, there is no single authority for the language so that details, including how to write and spell, vary across the north. PS: Here's an example of a Windows-centric approach. Unfortunately, this is the Nunavut government. Paid for by us. I have not looked to see what the actual fonts are like (Unicode or code page): http://www.gov.nu.ca/Nunavut/English/font/ Hmm. From viewing http://www.gov.nu.ca/inuktitut/ it looks as if they are using Unicode. Good! I seem to remember that this was not the case a couple of years ago. Licenses for all Inuktitut fonts that we found prevented free redistribution. I hope that that has changed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 16:38:18 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:38:18 +0300 (IDT) Subject: C struct construct question In-Reply-To: <20060418150639.GJ4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060418150639.GJ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I think it is creating a static contant structure named local_tech of > type 'strict ast_channel_tech' and initializing the contants by > specifying which members of the struct to set to what value. Given you > use local_tech.type to access it, it makes sense to be allowed to do > .type = type when initializing it. You seem to be right. This compiles cleanly: struct foo { int a; int b; int c; } foo; static const struct foo bar = { .a = 0, .b = 1, }; Hmm, 17 years of C and still finding new tricks ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 16:39:28 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:39:28 +0300 (IDT) Subject: C struct construct question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, John Vetterli wrote: > This syntax specifies which field in struct ast_channel_tech receives which > value, as opposed to having to list the the values in the same order as they > were declared in. Have a look at: > > http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.0/gcc/Designated-Inits.html > > That web page is for gcc version 4.1.0, but that feature seems to have been > in gcc since the first 3.x release. Yes. And that's the problem. I don't think that this is very portable. gcc 2.x.x did *not* support this and neither do my books mention it. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 16:44:43 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:44:43 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Mike Kallies wrote: >> As for safer, well sure. I must admit I haven't liked being zapped by >> either one. Of course 120V can kill you too. > > A British electrical engineer once told me that there are a > disproportionate number of deaths by 240 volt systems due to > electrocution. True, but that's likely because the Brits use no GFIs ? > He then added that there are a disproportionate number of deaths from > 120 volt systems by fire. True, it is possible to have a short at 120V and the cable resistance simply prevents the fuse from going off. Eventually the cable catches fire. E.g. 10 ohms gives only 12 Amps (1440 Watts). A couple of dirty prongs on a power plug can easily add up to 3-4 ohms. On a 220V circuit this would almost not matter (the cable would get toasty after a while but at only 6 Amps nothing bad would happen). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 17:00:51 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:00:51 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Inuktut character set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > At one point, I helped my daughter fix a Gnome input method for > Inuktitut. So I new some of this. But I've forgotten. Thanks, the information was useful. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 17:43:02 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:43:02 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 11:41:33AM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > A British electrical engineer once told me that there are a > disproportionate number of deaths by 240 volt systems due to > electrocution. > > He then added that there are a disproportionate number of deaths from > 120 volt systems by fire. > > His only conclusion was to learn from both systems and exceed the code > whenever practical. E.g. GFICs everywhere you can put them, Arc fault > wherever you can put them, a couple gauges thicker wire than you'd > normally use, more spacious device boxes, greater separation of the > wiring, judicious use of nail guards, etc etc. > > Of course he was an EE, not an Electrician. I keep wondering why north america uses metal boxes to put their outlets in, when europe uses plastic. Plastic doesn't conduct power if a wire gets close to it. It also doesn't deform the same way when being installed. Some work I have seen done by electricians building houses leaves the box so mangled it becomes very hard to actually put stuff in it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 19:41:16 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:41:16 +0100 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418174302.GK4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> When I was at college we were told that it's the current (Amps) that actually kills you, in the Uk the mains is 13 Amps, not sure what it is in the USA / Canada, also the Root Mean Squared on the 50 hz frequency means that you multiply this 240 volts by 1.414 (I think). We were also told that 50 Hertz (hurts) 60 Kills either as a way of remembering the differnt frequencies or perhps that 60hz is more dangerous, so perhaps the RMS on 60hz is higher, We also covered 3 phase in the UK which is 415 volts and a higher current, certainly ovens here are at 30 AMPS. Regarding fire if you short a 9v battery with a screwdriver and say left this in a pile of paper, (stupid I know), it could catch fire, which is why you have to be careful with such equipment this can be done accidently i.e drop battery, and it lands somewhere and shorts, Any comments, can anoyne clarify this. what does GFI mean? I will try and find out if we use it or not, Paul Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 11:41:33AM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > >>A British electrical engineer once told me that there are a >>disproportionate number of deaths by 240 volt systems due to >>electrocution. >> >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 19:41:20 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418174302.GK4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I keep wondering why north america uses metal boxes to put their outlets | in, when europe uses plastic. Plastic doesn't conduct power if a wire | gets close to it. It also doesn't deform the same way when being | installed. Some work I have seen done by electricians building houses | leaves the box so mangled it becomes very hard to actually put stuff in | it. So you are saying that plastic is less plastic than metal. Hmm. Intuitively (i.e. perhaps not actually) plastic seems more prone to burning. As I understand it, and you mentioned this earlier, each transformer in Europe supports more houses than each transformer in NA. Normally broadband-over-electrical-power-cables uses signals that don't cross those transformers. So it has been thought that BOEPC was more practical in Europe. But still not practical. I remember that in the .com boom Nortel had a project to use BOEPC in England, but it was abandoned. So what is the architecture that is thought to make sense here and now? Nodes at each transformer? Ethernet cable from transformer to each subscriber from the node? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 20:29:31 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <444540DC.2070808-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 08:41:16PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote: > When I was at college we were told that it's the current (Amps) that > actually kills you, in the Uk the mains is 13 Amps, not sure what it is > in the USA / Canada, also the Root Mean Squared on the 50 hz frequency > means that you multiply this 240 volts by 1.414 (I think). > > We were also told that 50 Hertz (hurts) 60 Kills either as a way of > remembering the differnt frequencies or perhps that 60hz is more > dangerous, so perhaps the RMS on 60hz is higher, We also covered 3 > phase in the UK which is 415 volts and a higher current, certainly ovens > here are at 30 AMPS. > > Regarding fire if you short a 9v battery with a screwdriver and say left > this in a pile of paper, (stupid I know), it could catch fire, which is > why you have to be careful with such equipment this can be done > accidently i.e drop battery, and it lands somewhere and shorts, > > Any comments, can anoyne clarify this. > > > what does GFI mean? I will try and find out if we use it or not, I believe it is Ground Fault Interupter (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html) I believe the idea is that it trips (disconnects) if the power flow through the live and neutral isn't the same (so some current must be going through ground instead of the neatral instead, which means something is shorting somewhere). So if somehow you touch the live wire, and get zapped, it should instantly notice that some of the power isn't returning through the neatral or another phase, and shuts off the power. After all the power that goes through you isn't going back the way it should. A GFI will trip is the current is off by a few milli amps, while it would take a short to ground drawing the full 15A or whatever your breaker is for a longer period for your breaker/fuse to blow. I mostly see GFIs installed as part of the outlet in bathrooms and outdoors, while in europe I have often seen a single GFI installed on the main incoming 3 phase line to a house, so everything is covered at once. Of course given I lived in Denmark, which until very recently didn't believe in grounded outlets at all, having the GFI protect everything was probably a good idea. It seems the theory in north america has been that if the hot wire shorts to the case of something, the case is grounded, so it will overload the breaker/fuse and turn of the power, before any person gets a chance to touch it, and anything that isn't grounded is supposed to have a fully insulated case so it can't possibly conduct power to the user. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 20:45:22 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:45:22 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <444540DC.2070808-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Paul Sutton wrote: > When I was at college we were told that it's the current (Amps) that actually > kills you, in the Uk the mains is 13 Amps, not sure what it is in the USA / > Canada, also the Root Mean Squared on the 50 hz frequency means that you > multiply this 240 volts by 1.414 (I think). > > We were also told that 50 Hertz (hurts) 60 Kills either as a way of > remembering the differnt frequencies or perhps that 60hz is more dangerous, > so perhaps the RMS on 60hz is higher, We also covered 3 phase in the UK > which is 415 volts and a higher current, certainly ovens here are at 30 AMPS. > > Regarding fire if you short a 9v battery with a screwdriver and say left this > in a pile of paper, (stupid I know), it could catch fire, which is why you > have to be careful with such equipment this can be done accidently i.e drop > battery, and it lands somewhere and shorts, > Any comments, can anoyne clarify this. A GFI is a Ground Fault Interrupter. It's a box that is mounted in the fuse panel and pops if a person touches a live wire and ground anywhere on a circuit. It also pops if there is leakage from the wiring to ground (in the walls). It will pop so fast that it actually saves the life of the person being electrocuted. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 20:57:23 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:57:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418202931.GL4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/06, Lennart Sorensen wrote: ... > I mostly see GFIs installed as part of the outlet in bathrooms and > outdoors, while in europe I have often seen a single GFI installed on > the main incoming 3 phase line to a house, so everything is covered at > once. Of course given I lived in Denmark, which until very recently > didn't believe in grounded outlets at all, having the GFI protect > everything was probably a good idea. It seems the theory in north > america has been that if the hot wire shorts to the case of something, > the case is grounded, so it will overload the breaker/fuse and turn of > the power, before any person gets a chance to touch it, and anything > that isn't grounded is supposed to have a fully insulated case so it > can't possibly conduct power to the user. Yeah, those are the devices, GFI(C)s ground fault interrupt (circuits). They make you replace your ungrounded outlets with the GFIC if you need to inspect an old house. The grounded case will protect you by offering much, much less resistance to ground than your body. It doesn't matter if the fuse blows. E.g. if a neutral shorts to the case after the load, the fuse won't blow at all, but the case will be live. If you manage to reduce your resistance sufficiently, like holding your water faucet while fishing your wet corded razor out of the sink, then only a GFIC can save you. The GFIC is a pain in the butt with big motors because the motors temporarily unbalance the current by storing the power in momentum. ...Although I've used a conventional GFIC with an outdoor lawn mower and haven't had any problems. Washing machines and fridges might be the only things big enough to cause problems for them. Which is good becuase an outdoor electric lawnmower without a GFIC always seemed like a dumb idea to me. The point is that you can't use them _everywhere_, there are limits. I'm pretty sure I've seen plastic device boxes used in Canada, I don't know anything about them. They seem simple enough, but who knows what the codes say :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:08:49 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:08:49 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418150027.GI4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <44457181.8070704@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 07:37:54PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> There's still potential leakage within the building. > > Sure, but is that that much compared to non insulated wires on a pole? Insulation doesn't have much effect on RF, except as a bit of additional loss. Shielding is what makes the big difference. You can use coaxial cable, as the cable companies do or twisted pairs, like the phone company, to reduce interference. Power lines are just big antennas. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:15:59 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:15:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418174302.GK4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4445732F.5090508@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 11:41:33AM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: >> A British electrical engineer once told me that there are a >> disproportionate number of deaths by 240 volt systems due to >> electrocution. >> >> He then added that there are a disproportionate number of deaths from >> 120 volt systems by fire. >> >> His only conclusion was to learn from both systems and exceed the code >> whenever practical. E.g. GFICs everywhere you can put them, Arc fault >> wherever you can put them, a couple gauges thicker wire than you'd >> normally use, more spacious device boxes, greater separation of the >> wiring, judicious use of nail guards, etc etc. >> >> Of course he was an EE, not an Electrician. > > I keep wondering why north america uses metal boxes to put their outlets > in, when europe uses plastic. Plastic doesn't conduct power if a wire > gets close to it. It also doesn't deform the same way when being > installed. Some work I have seen done by electricians building houses > leaves the box so mangled it becomes very hard to actually put stuff in > it. The reason for the boxes is mechanical protection and if metal, has to be grounded. There are also plastic boxes available, which have only a ground strap, for connecting to the outlets etc. I have also seen some horrible work by electricians. In my mother's house, built in 1957, there was one outlet in the kitchen, where the ground terminal was "connected" to the box by a nail that merely touched the box. Of course, after 40 years, that nail was rusty. Also, whenever you buy a home, go through it with a tester, that verifies proper connections to all the outlets. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:31:23 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:31:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <444540DC.2070808-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060415185508.GA11170@wp.magstar.net> <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <444576CB.8030000@rogers.com> Paul Sutton wrote: > When I was at college we were told that it's the current (Amps) that > actually kills you, in the Uk the mains is 13 Amps, not sure what it is > in the USA / Canada, also the Root Mean Squared on the 50 hz frequency > means that you multiply this 240 volts by 1.414 (I think). While it is the current that kills, it won't flow without the voltage to push it. In a resistive circuit, current is prortional to voltage. > > We were also told that 50 Hertz (hurts) 60 Kills either as a way of > remembering the differnt frequencies or perhps that 60hz is more > dangerous, so perhaps the RMS on 60hz is higher, We also covered 3 > phase in the UK which is 415 volts and a higher current, certainly ovens > here are at 30 AMPS. RMS (root mean squared) is independent of frequency. It's the equivalent DC value, that will carry the same amount of energy. With sine waves, it's 70.7% of the peak voltage. If you want, you can go back to calculus to work it out. > > Regarding fire if you short a 9v battery with a screwdriver and say left > this in a pile of paper, (stupid I know), it could catch fire, which is > why you have to be careful with such equipment this can be done > accidently i.e drop battery, and it lands somewhere and shorts, > Any comments, can anoyne clarify this. The battery would have to produce enough current, to create sufficient heat. > > > what does GFI mean? I will try and find out if we use it or not, Ground fault interupter. It measures the current in both the hot and neutral wire. If unbalanced, it assumes there's a fault (such as through someone) and kills the circuit. They are required by law near sinks and outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:36:59 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:36:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <20060418202931.GL4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <4442FFC4.2080408@utoronto.ca> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4445781B.8030905@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > everything was probably a good idea. It seems the theory in north > america has been that if the hot wire shorts to the case of something, > the case is grounded, so it will overload the breaker/fuse and turn of > the power, before any person gets a chance to touch it, and anything > that isn't grounded is supposed to have a fully insulated case so it > can't possibly conduct power to the user. At work these days, I support Windows users. It wouldn't be much of a loss, if some of them touched a live wire. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:39:09 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Mike Kallies | Yeah, those are the devices, GFI(C)s ground fault interrupt | (circuits). They make you replace your ungrounded outlets with the | GFIC if you need to inspect an old house. We did that in our house. Voluntarily. The house was built after Hurricane Hazel (October 1954). | The GFIC is a pain in the butt with big motors because the motors | temporarily unbalance the current by storing the power in momentum. I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I wonder if it is because it has power factor correction. I don't really know what that is (something to do with why EEs use complex numbers). Or why it would trip GFIs (or if it is something else about my notebook that is bothering them). The Wikipedia entry explains why these might be used with switchmode power supplies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor_correction -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 18 23:45:34 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:45:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44457A1E.40609@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Mike Kallies > > | Yeah, those are the devices, GFI(C)s ground fault interrupt > | (circuits). They make you replace your ungrounded outlets with the > | GFIC if you need to inspect an old house. > > We did that in our house. Voluntarily. The house was built after > Hurricane Hazel (October 1954). > > | The GFIC is a pain in the butt with big motors because the motors > | temporarily unbalance the current by storing the power in momentum. > > I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I > wonder if it is because it has power factor correction. I don't > really know what that is (something to do with why EEs use complex > numbers). Or why it would trip GFIs (or if it is something else about > my notebook that is bothering them). There might be leakage through a cable to some other device. > > The Wikipedia entry explains why these might be used with switchmode > power supplies. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor_correction > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 09:35:00 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:35:00 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a power cord which has a longer ground prong. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 10:04:29 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:04:29 +0300 (IDT) Subject: free fonts Message-ID: Are the Larabie fonts an option for X11 ? http://www.larabiefonts.com/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 10:14:18 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:14:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44460D7A.5080209@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I > > Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a > power cord which has a longer ground prong. ??? I've never heard of a ground prong being too short. They're designed so that the ground connection is made, before the power connects. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 11:01:59 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:01:59 +0300 (IDT) Subject: neat script Message-ID: Slightly ot, but neat (warning: no xxx filter is used on google.images, with predictable results): http://blog.outer-court.com/story/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 13:27:46 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:27:46 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: <44460D7A.5080209-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> <44460D7A.5080209@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, James Knott wrote: > Peter wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >>> I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I >> >> Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a >> power cord which has a longer ground prong. > > ??? > > I've never heard of a ground prong being too short. They're designed so > that the ground connection is made, before the power connects. Depends in which country. Think about it, the input filter network with a ground prog will have caps which will charge abruptly when connecting. If the ground prong enters first, the next pin to touch produces unbalanced current in the circuit to charge the caps on its side. This may trip a GFI. I don't think that a longer ground prong would help (a shorter one might but it may be dangerous). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 18:52:32 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: popping GFIs [was Re: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts?] In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Peter | On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | | > I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I | | Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a power cord | which has a longer ground prong. It has 3 prongs. If I remember correctly, when I use a "cheater" (leaving ground unconnected), the GFI does not pop. This is probably not a safety concern since the power connector on the laptop itself appears to have only has two terminals. The poping is sometimes (always?) many minutes after the notebook is plugged in. I've not experimented with it much because there are a bunch of other devices on the same GFI that need to be labouriously reset whenever the GFI goes off. I have tried the notebook with other GFIs and it does pop them. Hmm. Now that I have a meter, I should figure out how much power the notebook uses. (This desktop, with an Athlon 64 3800+ x2 and an nVidia 7800 GTX, excluding the monitor, seems to take 124W as I type this; seems rather low to me.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 19 20:57:24 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: popping GFIs [was Re: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts?] In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50984.207.188.65.194.1145480244.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > It has 3 prongs. If I remember correctly, when I use a "cheater" > (leaving ground unconnected), the GFI does not pop. This is probably > not a safety concern since the power connector on the laptop itself > appears to have only has two terminals. > > The poping is sometimes (always?) many minutes after the notebook is > plugged in. > The GFI works by detecting any unbalance in current between line and neutral. (In the GFI, the line and neutral conductors thread through a magnetic toroid. If the currents are equal, then there is no net induction of magnetic flux in the core. If the currents are unbalanced, there is an AC flux. Another 'detection' coil turns that AC flux into a voltage that is used to trip the GFI breaker.) There is a time delay built into the GFI, but the delay may also be a function of the power supply warming up. In any case, when you use a three-prong plug the unbalanced current must be going to the ground connection. So there is probably some leakage current to ground in that power supply. You can be adventuresome and use a two-prong plug or conservative and replace the power supply. Just don't use the laptop when you're in the bathtub. ;) Or in other situations where your body is well and truly connected to earth ground. In those situations, the leakage current may find a path from some metallic point on the laptop, through you, and to the earth ground. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 00:34:10 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:34:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> <44460D7A.5080209@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4446D702.308@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, James Knott wrote: > >> Peter wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>> >>>> I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I >>> >>> Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a >>> power cord which has a longer ground prong. >> >> ??? >> >> I've never heard of a ground prong being too short. They're designed so >> that the ground connection is made, before the power connects. > > Depends in which country. Think about it, the input filter network with > a ground prog will have caps which will charge abruptly when connecting. > If the ground prong enters first, the next pin to touch produces > unbalanced current in the circuit to charge the caps on its side. This > may trip a GFI. I don't think that a longer ground prong would help (a > shorter one might but it may be dangerous). ???? Most of the capacitors, would be in the power circuit, that is between the hot and neutral wires. They are both the same length. Again the ground is longer for safety reasons. As for the capacitors, almost any electronic and many electrical devices have them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 00:43:36 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:43:36 -0400 Subject: popping GFIs [was Re: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts?] In-Reply-To: References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <20060417005446.09da1749.tleslie@tcn.net> <4443698F.6030806@rogers.com> <20060417172310.GF4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444426D2.5090603@rogers.com> <20060418150027.GI4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4446D938.7080908@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Peter > > | On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | > | > I don't know why but my notebook will pop them. Very annoying. I > | > | Does it have 3 prongs or 2 ? If it has 3 it may help to change to a power cord > | which has a longer ground prong. > > It has 3 prongs. If I remember correctly, when I use a "cheater" > (leaving ground unconnected), the GFI does not pop. This is probably > not a safety concern since the power connector on the laptop itself > appears to have only has two terminals. If it wasn't a concern, the manufacturer wouldn't have put the 3rd pin there. Using a "cheater" to bypass a grounded plug is illegal. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 01:30:53 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:30:53 -0400 Subject: neat script In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/06, Peter wrote: > http://blog.outer-court.com/story/ Lol - that is kinda cool. Some supplemental coding - say to support a minimal thesaurus - would help flesh it out. For example, I tried "My spaceship is orange, and very fast." which worked ok - except that no pic's are returned for the word "my." Definately a unique use for Google Image Search though. For PHP folks, you can find some hints on how it was done and some sample code at http://blog.outer-court.com/forum/14006.html -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 02:03:16 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:03:16 -0700 Subject: Groupware Evaluation Message-ID: Here's an interesting summary article of an organization that did some evaluations of OSS "groupware" packages... http://www.itwales.com/997890.htm It seems quite a mixed bag; a lot of the systems are quite severely hindered by the "we may call it OSS, but that version isn't properly supportable; you *actually* want to buy licenses from us if you want to use it" problem. I'm not sure how current it all is, but it seemed consistent with the way things were the last I took a look at it... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 03:01:35 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:01:35 -0400 Subject: Groupware Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4446F98F.5040104@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >Here's an interesting summary article of an organization that did some >evaluations of OSS "groupware" packages... > >http://www.itwales.com/997890.htm > >It seems quite a mixed bag; a lot of the systems are quite severely hindered by the "we may call it OSS, but that version isn't properly supportable; you *actually* want to buy licenses from us if you want to use it" problem. > > Yes, unfortunately. >I'm not sure how current it all is, but it seemed consistent with the >way things were the last I took a look at it... > > LPI experimented with OpenGroupware but I absolutely despised the interface and could never get the hang of it. I think the reviewers were too focused on the web-UI options and didn't give enough of an effort to the client-server options (after all, that's what someone comes from if they're using shared Outlook data using an Exchange server...). Kolab looks pretty solid as a server, what seems immature is the range of clients for it. (http://www.kolab.org/about-kolab-clients.html) KDE's Kontact is good but only for that platform. I'd heard that Evolution worked with Kolab but haven't tested it; that might be a very powerful combination. For a while there were high hopes for an integrated OpenOffice client for Kolab -- that has evolved into the Java-based "Glow" (http://groupware.openoffice.org/glow/) which is still pre-alpha despite the fact this effort has been around for many years. Now I see attention focused on two projects, neither of which was on the Welsh list: 1) The groupware extensions to Thunderbird, using Kolab as a backend (http://www.gargan.org/extensions/synckolab.html) 2) For those who really want a web interface, Google Calendar - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 03:24:10 2006 From: leah-L9i2b+zLJ9LIrURfT66hzQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:24:10 -0400 Subject: Groupware Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604192324.10530.leah@frauerpower.com> I was contemplating giving a talk on this as opposed to LDAP, as planned sometime in the future as I've been doing lots of evaluations, installations, etc. Their article is pretty honest about the state of things. I have mostly focused my attention on OpenXChange, Zimbra, and Scalix. Ultimately, I ended up sticking with OpenXChange. It is very difficult to install by hand, but there is some good documentation out there, and many folks have now written installation scripts that make the installation process quite simple (especially for CentOS 4.x). I use it on both SUSE and CentOS platforms. The biggest win with OpenXChange is that it allows you total freedom on the back end. You are not tied to specific versions of anything besides the Java servelet code base. You can impliment various LDAP/MTA/IMAP backend combinations. That means you can use the OS provided packages and security updates, unlike Zimbra. Scalix is closer to this model in that you use the OS provided packages, but it is not flexible in terms of letting you chose alternates to it's preferred MTA (sendmail), etc. I have also tested the Outlook connector, and it works quite well, (there is a license fee.) The community is a little hard to find, but is quite responsive once you find them. The forums are good, there is an IRC channel, and the wiki, while ugly, works. The main downfalls of OX are that it could use some updates to it's legacy Postgres and LDAP schemas. Also, imo, it is a bit too dependant on the DB for some of the groupware features. However, it does mean that it tends to work even if you back end servers are missing some features. The other thing to note is that because it is legacy, it is, at least proven and in production software. The original SUSE OX project was started around 1999, iirc. Another problem is a lack of nice web based mgt tools. I've been working on one that is rails based for OX, and am looking into thee possibility of virtualmin integration (would work for dovecot IMAP, I think). However, as I need domain level admin support, and none of the products I have mentioned have it, it kind of doesn't matter. Zimbra provides this feature in their commercial version, but not the OSS version, which does make it tempting. Scalix doesn't seem to have the feature yet. Anywho, there's my 2bits + half a shilling. Leah On Wednesday 19 April 2006 22:03, Christopher Browne wrote: > Here's an interesting summary article of an organization that did some > evaluations of OSS "groupware" packages... > > http://www.itwales.com/997890.htm > > It seems quite a mixed bag; a lot of the systems are quite severely > hindered by the "we may call it OSS, but that version isn't properly > supportable; you *actually* want to buy licenses from us if you want > to use it" problem. > > I'm not sure how current it all is, but it seemed consistent with the > way things were the last I took a look at it... > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 03:48:35 2006 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:48:35 -0400 Subject: teksavvy Message-ID: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to teksavvy? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 05:03:32 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to > teksavvy? Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support Linux. This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 05:06:08 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Groupware Evaluation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Christopher Browne wrote: > Here's an interesting summary article of an organization that did some > evaluations of OSS "groupware" packages... > > http://www.itwales.com/997890.htm > > It seems quite a mixed bag; a lot of the systems are quite severely > hindered by the "we may call it OSS, but that version isn't properly > supportable; you *actually* want to buy licenses from us if you want > to use it" problem. > > I'm not sure how current it all is, but it seemed consistent with the > way things were the last I took a look at it... The article didn't look at eGroupWare or phpGroupWare. I wonder why. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 06:20:27 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:20:27 +0300 (IDT) Subject: neat script In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/19/06, Peter wrote: >> http://blog.outer-court.com/story/ > > Lol - that is kinda cool. Some supplemental coding - say to support a > minimal thesaurus - would help flesh it out. For example, I tried "My > spaceship is orange, and very fast." which worked ok - except that no > pic's are returned for the word "my." Hmm, strange dinosaurs at unc.edu ? try this: 'tyrannosaurs and pterodactyls' What the **** is that ? Maybe Google should set up an xxx classification for its images collection. soon. Can you picture the image story visualizer being used to tech kids the names of objects and the occasional pterodactyl showing up ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 13:56:13 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: popping GFIs [was Re: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts?] In-Reply-To: <4446D938.7080908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> <4446D938.7080908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604200656t1a43b0adhc42c2438dce16e74@mail.gmail.com> > > It has 3 prongs. If I remember correctly, when I use a "cheater" > > (leaving ground unconnected), the GFI does not pop. This is probably > > not a safety concern since the power connector on the laptop itself > > appears to have only has two terminals. > > If it wasn't a concern, the manufacturer wouldn't have put the 3rd pin > there. > > Using a "cheater" to bypass a grounded plug is illegal. That depends on your definition of "is" I'm sure using the cheater breaks the rules that the supply was tested under. I personally wouldn't be concerned.... only when plugging into a GFIC. In theory, the GFIC could be a three prong ungrounded outlet anyway :-) But yeah, manufacturers wouldn't have used a 3-prong outlet if they didn't have a reason to. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 14:06:56 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:06:56 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <1145542016.44479580baf7a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Robert Brockway : > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > > Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to > > teksavvy? > > Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If > the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows > just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows > and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. > > When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their > credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the > conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support Linux. > This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 > Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. What ISPs do support Linux (for home use)? Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 14:06:58 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:06:58 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <1145542018.444795822d60a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Robert Brockway : > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > > Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to > > teksavvy? > > Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If > the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows > just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows > and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. > > When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their > credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the > conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support Linux. > This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 > Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. What ISPs do support Linux (for home use)? Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 14:36:54 2006 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISP supports Linux In-Reply-To: <1145542018.444795822d60a-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <1145542018.444795822d60a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <50154.207.188.65.194.1145543814.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > What ISPs do support Linux (for home use)? The Pathcom technical support walked me through a connection problem under Linux, and they seemed to be quite comfortable doing so. Whether that's official or not I don't know. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 15:14:22 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:14:22 -0400 Subject: neat script In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604200814r5eba6933u66f3bfdc0480f416@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Peter wrote: > Maybe Google should set up an xxx classification for its images > collection. soon. Ouch. http://labs.google.com/faq.html#contact doesn't help at all. Anyone know if they have a suggestion-box type email account or interface? -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 16:16:00 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:16:00 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604200916k646286d0n64d39d2c579301e8@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > > Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to > > teksavvy? > > Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If > the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows > just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows > and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. > > When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their > credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the > conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support Linux. > This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). I'm a former iStop refugee myself and switched over to Teksavvy. While they might not support Linux officially, the few times I had to call their technical support they were very helpful and the fact I was on Linux did not deter them. I am happy with my service. What are some Linux-friendly-and-proud-of-it ISPs? -- Daniel W. Armstrong :: build-it-yourself biology http://biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 20 16:28:57 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:28:57 -0400 Subject: neat script In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604200814r5eba6933u66f3bfdc0480f416-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604200814r5eba6933u66f3bfdc0480f416@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604200928w29988955k96666218d5891950@mail.gmail.com> > > Maybe Google should set up an xxx classification for its images > > collection. soon. There is a CGI parameter called '&safe' that can be set to 'on'. Don't know what the Google API's equivalent is yet. > > http://labs.google.com/faq.html#contact doesn't help at all. > > Anyone know if they have a suggestion-box type email account or interface? Asked on google.public.support.general -- As a kid, I would havve loved to have been able to make books in this way. Choose your own adventure style. I tried it once - when I was 10; started by drawing a picture using the C-64's keyboard graphics set and ended up an addict. If it could be made safe, I'd like to see it. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 00:26:57 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:26:57 -0400 Subject: popping GFIs [was Re: Anyone with Roger's Lite accounts?] In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604200656t1a43b0adhc42c2438dce16e74-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4442F5ED.5090202@georgetown.wehave.net> <92ee967a0604180841l291a11d7pbb37aee730231785@mail.gmail.com> <20060418174302.GK4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <444540DC.2070808@zen.co.uk> <20060418202931.GL4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <92ee967a0604181357t3fbf9ac9wb0f8977a9f54787e@mail.gmail.com> <4446D938.7080908@rogers.com> <92ee967a0604200656t1a43b0adhc42c2438dce16e74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444826D1.1060805@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: >>> It has 3 prongs. If I remember correctly, when I use a "cheater" >>> (leaving ground unconnected), the GFI does not pop. This is probably >>> not a safety concern since the power connector on the laptop itself >>> appears to have only has two terminals. >> If it wasn't a concern, the manufacturer wouldn't have put the 3rd pin >> there. >> >> Using a "cheater" to bypass a grounded plug is illegal. > > That depends on your definition of "is" I guess he'll find out, when he has to settle with his insurance company. > > I'm sure using the cheater breaks the rules that the supply was tested > under. I personally wouldn't be concerned.... only when plugging into > a GFIC. In theory, the GFIC could be a three prong ungrounded outlet > anyway :-) That's not what I was referring to. A GFI is a permissable method of using 3 prong plugs, when grounded outlets are not available. When using a cheater, the safety mechanism, provided by the 3rd pring is defeated. > > But yeah, manufacturers wouldn't have used a 3-prong outlet if they > didn't have a reason to. > > -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 00:27:47 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:27:47 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: <1145542016.44479580baf7a-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <1145542016.44479580baf7a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <44482703.1010605@rogers.com> wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Quoting Robert Brockway : > >> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Ansar Mohammed wrote: >> >>> Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to >>> teksavvy? >> Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If >> the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows >> just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows >> and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. >> >> When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their >> credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the >> conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support Linux. >> This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). >> >> Rob >> >> -- >> Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 >> Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 >> OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org >> Web: www.opentrend.net >> We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > > > What ISPs do support Linux (for home use)? Define "support". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 02:25:44 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:25:44 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <444842A8.60902@lansystems.ca> Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Is anyone using teksavvy? I am planning on moving from simpatico to > teksavvy? > > > I used teksavvy for 3 years, they're a great ISP. My plan with them consisted of a 3mb dsl line, a /29, delegated reverse dns for less then Rogers/Sympatico. They also didn't mind the fact that I ran about 6 servers from my network. While they don't officially support linux, they're more then helpful, all the time. Rocky, Marc, and Doug (not sure if doug is still there) were extremely patient in getting me up and running 3 years ago, going way out of there way to meet my insane requests. This is the reward of dealing with "smaller" ISPs. They usually care about their customers, unlike the huge conglomerates. I referred at least 3-5 people to their service, and they're still with them without an complaints. Vince -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 02:35:33 2006 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:35:33 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <444844F5.6090002@georgetown.wehave.net> Robert Brockway wrote: > When I asked, Teksavvy stated that they do not support Linux. To their > credit they were quite open about this even though it was clear from the > conversation I would not be going with them if they did not support > Linux. This was about 1 year ago (just after iStop stopped). I've been with them since that time, never noticed an outage, never had any issues with them, never have had occasion to call except on the day that I got set up. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 03:11:46 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:11:46 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: <44482703.1010605-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <1145542016.44479580baf7a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <44482703.1010605@rogers.com> Message-ID: <44484D72.9080508@telly.org> James Knott wrote: >>>Personally I like to endorse and use ISPs that openly support Linux. If >>>the DSL has a problem I'm just not interested in installing MS-Windows >>>just to prove that the problem is not at my end. I don't run MS-Windows >>>and I have better things to do than do a timewasting installation. >>> >>> > >Define "support". > > In this context -- being able to diagnose connectivity and solve problems even though the customer is using Linux and can't set Windows in a certain way. In this respect, Rogers is half there -- while their techs make it clear that their service does not guarantee service for Linux clients, they still work with me. We are generally able to work through problems once they know I can use tools such as dig, traceroute, and ifconfig to help with the necessary diagnostics from my end. In most cases I can give them better information than they can get from customers with Windows diagnostics, which makes their work easier and as a result they're usually quite helpful. (Of course, it doesn't matter what OS you use when the main resolution is usually "reboot the cablemodem :-P".) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 03:24:10 2006 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:24:10 -0400 Subject: Croquet SDK beta released Message-ID: Check out the demo movies at: http://croquet-bento.blogspot.com/2006/04/croquet-sdk-released.html It's a collaborative 3D environment - see the movie, a picture's worth a 1000 words. Croquet itself is under a MIT-like license. The underlying Squeak system is under "Squeak" license. There's some debate over the license, but regardless, edubuntu will be (already does?) include Squeak. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 10:17:47 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:17:47 -0400 Subject: teksavvy In-Reply-To: <44484D72.9080508-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <003101c6642d$4f3bc1a0$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <1145542016.44479580baf7a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <44482703.1010605@rogers.com> <44484D72.9080508@telly.org> Message-ID: <4448B14B.5060807@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > In this respect, Rogers is half there -- while their techs make it clear > that their service does not guarantee > service for Linux clients, they still work with me. We are generally > able to work through problems once they know I can use tools such as > dig, traceroute, and ifconfig to help with the necessary diagnostics > from my end. In most cases I can give them better information than they > can get from customers with Windows diagnostics, which makes their work > easier and as a result they're usually quite helpful. > > (Of course, it doesn't matter what OS you use when the main resolution > is usually "reboot the cablemodem :-P".) Try sending them an ethereal dump. ;-) I had a problem with email, that started when they switched to Yahoo. It took a while to find someone who even knew what a network monitor was, but the problem was finally resovled. I was able to show them the problem, with that dump and a few sample spams that were blocking my mail downloads. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 14:45:14 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:45:14 -0400 Subject: anaconda won't proceed In-Reply-To: <20060418145405.GA24531@localhost> References: <20060414165126.5035.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414170028.15912.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060414180033.GA12408@localhost> <4442DB2F.8040107@vianet.ca> <20060418142718.20512.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> <20060418145405.GA24531@localhost> Message-ID: <20060421144514.26943.qmail@mail.vianet.ca> Stephen writes: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 10:27:18AM -0400 or thereabouts, caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Stephen wrote: >> >> >> >> >>Try a live CD distribution to check the hardware out first ! >> >> Looks like the hardware is okay - Agnula LIve is running. I knew the >> hardware was okay as I have installed W98 on 3 GB of the hard drive. > > That wasn't the point vis-a-vis Windows. It was to see if the Linux > kernel had any problems with your hardware, as is obviously the case > with the distro you're attempting to install. Yes. As it turns out this is going to have to be a dual-boot (with xp) -- I don't have a choice in that. however, that uncovered something. xp didn't see the hard drive. The vendor tells me it's an ATA serial drive that xp doesn't know. Or more properly it's a hard drive the motherboard doesn't know. He instructed me to get the driver (in a folder called RAID for some reason) from the ASUS motherboard CD, put it on a floppy and install it at F6 during xp installation. I did that and xp is happy and installed. > It's better to stick to a good distro like Debian Stable/Testing. The > other distros don't often have the quality control that Debian has. It's > rather famous in this regard. With all due respect I'll stick with the RH-FC line. I've been using it for years and run a successful business with two networked FC (2 and 4) boxes. It's a good fit for me. I've tried hopping to different OSes to solve problems and it's always caused me more grief than good. I'll do what I always do and find a solution that works for RH-FC. I've never installed a driver before installing the OS but it looks like I'll have to learn to do that. I'll find a driver so that linux recognizes the hard drive. I don't know how to do that but I'll find out, I guess. > So, my advice is to try Debian, forget FC or whatever flavour of the > month you are using or attempting to install. Ouch! Well, thanks. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 15:36:12 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:36:12 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help Message-ID: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> I am trying to parse a string in BASH. I have two goals. First, exit if the string contains anything other than 0-9, a-z or '.'. Second escape all '.' to '\.'. # Check for a proper url if [[ $DOMAIN = [^a-b0-9\.] ]] ; then echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." exit 1 fi # We must escape special characters $DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//\./\\./} Alas, my code does not work as I had hoped. The first test always passes even if DOMAIN contains other characters. The second test tries to open a file. It returns the error "No such file or directory." -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 15:52:26 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:52:26 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421153612.GA7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060421155226.GM4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:36:12AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I am trying to parse a string in BASH. I have two goals. First, exit if the > string contains anything other than 0-9, a-z or '.'. Second escape all '.' > to > '\.'. > > # Check for a proper url > if [[ $DOMAIN = [^a-b0-9\.] ]] ; then > echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." > exit 1 > fi > > # We must escape special characters > $DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//\./\\./} DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//\./\\./} > > > Alas, my code does not work as I had hoped. The first test always passes > even > if DOMAIN contains other characters. The second test tries to open a file. > It > returns the error "No such file or directory." You wouldn't believe how many times I have made that mistake in bash. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:11:04 2006 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421153612.GA7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Neil Watson wrote: > I am trying to parse a string in BASH. I have two goals. First, exit if the > string contains anything other than 0-9, a-z or '.'. Second escape all '.' to > '\.'. > > # Check for a proper url > if [[ $DOMAIN = [^a-b0-9\.] ]] ; then > echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." > exit 1 > fi > > # We must escape special characters > $DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//\./\\./} > > > Alas, my code does not work as I had hoped. The first test always passes even > if DOMAIN contains other characters. The second test tries to open a file. It > returns the error "No such file or directory." Do you mean a-b or a-z? No capital letters? LC_COLLATE=C case $DOMAIN in *[!a-z0-9.]*) echo "Invalid URL: a-z, 0-9 and . allowed only." exit 1 ;; esac DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//./\\.} -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:29:29 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:29:29 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060421162929.GB7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 12:11:04PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > Do you mean a-b or a-z? No capital letters? I mean a-z. Still not working. # Check for a proper url if [[ $DOMAIN = *[!a-z0-9.]* ]] ; then echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." exit 1 fi # We must escape special characters DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//./\\.} Check 1 works. The substitution returns and error (DOMAIN: command not found). -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:32:44 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:32:44 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421162929.GB7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060421162929.GB7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060421163244.GC7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> White space is the enemy :) # We must escape special characters DOMAIN=${DOMAIN//./\\.} -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:33:05 2006 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421162929.GB7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060421162929.GB7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 12:11:04PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > Do you mean a-b or a-z? No capital letters? > > I mean a-z. Still not working. > > # Check for a proper url > if [[ $DOMAIN = *[!a-z0-9.]* ]] ; then > echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." > exit 1 > fi > > # We must escape special characters > DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//./\\.} DOMAIN=${DOMAIN//./\\.} > > Check 1 works. The substitution returns and error (DOMAIN: command not > found). > > --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:35:11 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421163244.GC7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060421162929.GB7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060421163244.GC7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060421163511.GN4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 12:32:44PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > White space is the enemy :) > > # We must escape special characters > DOMAIN=${DOMAIN//./\\.} Oh right. That's another common mistake I often make. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 16:48:27 2006 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421162929.GB7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060421162929.GB7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 12:11:04PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > >> Do you mean a-b or a-z? No capital letters? > > I mean a-z. Still not working. Did you try the code I posted? > # Check for a proper url > if [[ $DOMAIN = *[!a-z0-9.]* ]] ; then > echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." > exit 1 > fi > > # We must escape special characters > DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//./\\.} > > Check 1 works. The substitution returns and error (DOMAIN: command not > found). Syntax error (my mistake in copying). That should be: DOMAIN=${DOMAIN//./\\.} -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 18:08:32 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:08:32 +0300 (IDT) Subject: neat script In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604200814r5eba6933u66f3bfdc0480f416-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604191830w1f13f0aideeb4afd753c1e87@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0604200814r5eba6933u66f3bfdc0480f416@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 4/20/06, Peter wrote: >> Maybe Google should set up an xxx classification for its images >> collection. soon. > > Ouch. > > http://labs.google.com/faq.html#contact doesn't help at all. > > Anyone know if they have a suggestion-box type email account or interface? After checking some more I see that keywords like large, small, medium and even xxx bring no unexpected surprises. BUT the ranking is shifting all the time. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 19:18:06 2006 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:18:06 -0400 Subject: Hard Drives, mirroring and SATA In-Reply-To: <20060417141303.GA10600-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417141303.GA10600@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1CEC60DD-42DB-4C81-BD2F-797CAB28FD86@ca.afilias.info> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 17-Apr-06, at 10:13, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I think I may have a failing hard drive. I haven't seen any > glitches at > all - everything works great - but I see this in my logwatch report: > > --------------------- Smartd Begin ------------------------ > > > /dev/hda : > Prefailure: Seek_Time_Performance (8) changed to 247, 248, 249 > > Warnings: > Warning via mail to $ME at locahost: successful - 1 Time(s) > Sending warning via mail to $ME at locahost ... - 1 Time(s) > > ---------------------- Smartd End ------------------------- > > So I'm worried. Should I worry? > > The next question is, how do I mirror a hard drive You probably mean clone, not mirror. Mirroring is done through the RAID subsystem. However it's a bit messy to retro-fit a mirror. I suspect you don't want to go this route. > (rather than go > through the hassle of reinstalling)? Can I do a dd from one drive to > another? If they're identical drives, absolutely. However, you probably don't want to try it while they're mounted. > Do I need to do this with a live CD? Or is it easier to just > reinstall? If you've backed your data up then a re-install makes more sense. Gives you an opportunity to throw in an upgrade while you're at it. If you have a complicated mess of a system that you don't want to spend any more time on than absolutely necessary, then you might want to clone the data onto a separate disk. There are plenty of ways to do this. Switching to maintenance mode, formatting and mounting the new disk then copying data over is probably the easiest. There are plenty of ways to accomplish this too. > Lastly, should I just buy another IDE drive, or should I get an SATA > drive (the difference seems to be about $4 more SATA)? Thanks. SATA offers higher IO as well as smaller and easier to manage cables. The SATA disk subsystem in Linux is substantially better than the other disk subsystems. Assuming you have a supported SATA controller already on your motherboard, then it's a no-brainer. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org DBA, Afilias Canada Corp. Ltd. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFESS/ugfzn5SevSpoRAjBLAKCZ2ev05hLrxrDIrqmYKiAF1fjwHACbBF/6 El5nnB82jiiNHyj410bQ/PY= =1KI/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 19:31:33 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:31:33 -0400 Subject: Hard Drives, mirroring and SATA In-Reply-To: <1CEC60DD-42DB-4C81-BD2F-797CAB28FD86-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060417141303.GA10600@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <1CEC60DD-42DB-4C81-BD2F-797CAB28FD86@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: <20060421193133.GA7473@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 03:18:06PM -0400, Andrew Hammond wrote: >>The next question is, how do I mirror a hard drive > >You probably mean clone, not mirror. Mirroring is done through the >RAID subsystem. However it's a bit messy to retro-fit a mirror. I >suspect you don't want to go this route. Good to know, thanks. >>(rather than go >>through the hassle of reinstalling)? Can I do a dd from one drive to >>another? > >If they're identical drives, absolutely. However, you probably don't >want to try it while they're mounted. Good point. >>Do I need to do this with a live CD? Or is it easier to just >>reinstall? > >If you've backed your data up then a re-install makes more sense. >Gives you an opportunity to throw in an upgrade while you're at it. I use Debian, so I don't need to upgrade - I do that a a couple of times a week. I generally only reboot when my kernel gets upgraded. >>Lastly, should I just buy another IDE drive, or should I get an SATA >>drive (the difference seems to be about $4 more SATA)? Thanks. > >SATA offers higher IO as well as smaller and easier to manage cables. >The SATA disk subsystem in Linux is substantially better than the >other disk subsystems. Assuming you have a supported SATA controller >already on your motherboard, then it's a no-brainer. Good to know - if only my motherboard supported it :-( Next upgrade, for sure. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 21 20:47:04 2006 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:47:04 -0400 Subject: BASH regex help In-Reply-To: <20060421153612.GA7037-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060421153612.GA7037@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060421204704.GA17725@wp.magstar.net> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:36:12AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > I am trying to parse a string in BASH. I have two goals. First, exit if the > string contains anything other than 0-9, a-z or '.'. Second escape all '.' > to > '\.'. > > # Check for a proper url > if [[ $DOMAIN = [^a-b0-9\.] ]] ; then if [[ $DOMAIN == [^a-b0-9\.] ]] ; then > echo "Invalid URL a-b, 0-9 and . allowed only." > exit 1 > fi > > # We must escape special characters > $DOMAIN = ${DOMAIN//\./\\./} DOMAIN=${DOMAIN//./\\./} -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 15:51:26 2006 From: shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:51:26 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <200604101721.04814.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200604101721.04814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <200604231151.27113.shrike@heinous.org> How are you doing for presenters? I have a 30 minute presentation of how to use Ethereal that I recently put together for work, and would be happy to share with you all as well. I also have a session on debugging ESX server core dumps, that I may be able to re-tailor for a public audience / the linux kernel if you think that would be interesting. Cheers, -Joseph- On Monday 10 April 2006 17:21, Jason Shein wrote: > Hello all. > > WestTLUG now has a place to call their own. > > We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future > meetings, now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take > place on the first Tuesday of the month. > > The mailing list will be fully operational within a few days time. All > other parts of the site are now operational. > > We have a marketplace area for members to sell their used hardware, and > give away free items as well. > > Feel free to have a look around, and we are open to suggestions on > improving the site. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 16:00:59 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:00:59 -0400 Subject: Announcing http://westtlug.ca In-Reply-To: <200604231151.27113.shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> References: <200604101721.04814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <200604231151.27113.shrike@heinous.org> Message-ID: <200604231201.00280.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Sunday 23 April 2006 11:51, Joseph Kubik wrote: > How are you doing for presenters? > I have a 30 minute presentation of how to use Ethereal that I recently put > together for work, and would be happy to share with you all as well. > > I also have a session on debugging ESX server core dumps, that I may be > able to re-tailor for a public audience / the linux kernel if you think > that would be interesting. > > Cheers, > -Joseph- We would love to have you present in the future. We have our presenters arranged for this month, but feel free to send me some details off-list and I will present the idea to the group at the May meeting. If anyone else would be interested in presenting in the future, please contact me off-list or on the WestTLUG mailing list, in order to minimize traffic to the TLUG list. > On Monday 10 April 2006 17:21, Jason Shein wrote: > > Hello all. > > > > WestTLUG now has a place to call their own. > > > > We are looking for presentation topics ( & presenters ) for future > > meetings, now taking place at Sheridan College in Oakville. Meetings take > > place on the first Tuesday of the month. > > > > The mailing list will be fully operational within a few days time. All > > other parts of the site are now operational. > > > > We have a marketplace area for members to sell their used hardware, and > > give away free items as well. > > > > Feel free to have a look around, and we are open to suggestions on > > improving the site. > -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 16:10:23 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:10:23 -0400 Subject: WestTLUG Meeting May 2, 2006 Message-ID: <200604231210.23999.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Date: May 2, 2006 Where: Sheridan College (Trafalgar Campus) 1430 Trafalgar Rd. Oakville SPARK building, Room J114 Time: 7:00 PM Map: http://agfileserver.sheridanc.on.ca/contact_lug.php Speaker # 1: Evan Leibovitch Executive Director of CLUE and a longtime Canadian OSS advocate/consultant http://www.cluecan.ca/about Topic: Linux Business Issues and the Canadian Open Source environment Past articles authored by Evan: http://www.telly.org/articles http://www.telly.org/articles-zdnet Speaker # 2: Agron Selimaj Topic: At the last meeting Agron informed us of some software he has created. He will be presenting his utility which he has described as "an addition to the 'sendmail to root' practise that sends MSN messages to any MSN account from the command line." It is available for Linux, MS Windows and Mac. Q&A Session to follow the presentations. Come check out our new home! http://www.westtlug.ca -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 17:03:48 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Search Engine Strategies Conference & Expo Message-ID: <20060423170348.79443.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Of note at the same time as the Linux World Canada show April 25th and 26th, and in the same building, the Metro Convention Centre, there will be a ?Search Engine Strategies Conference & Expo?. For anyone interested more information can be seen here: http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/toronto06/index.html . If you register in advance getting on to the show floor for that even is free. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 17:33:51 2006 From: frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:33:51 -0400 Subject: How to list the ports open and closed by my firewall? In-Reply-To: <200604231210.23999.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200604231210.23999.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <8C8351338A43100-2D88-8672@mblkn-m02.sysops.aol.com> Hi, I made a simple firewall and I did not block some ports but some clients says my firewall blocked some ports. How do I know which ports are open and which are closed by my firewall? Thanks. Frank Peng. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 18:37:13 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:37:13 -0400 Subject: How to list the ports open and closed by my firewall? In-Reply-To: <8C8351338A43100-2D88-8672-MSmFgb0UDN444ZnZnvunG7pta98KZJIQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200604231210.23999.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <8C8351338A43100-2D88-8672@mblkn-m02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20060423143713.5d349373.tleslie@tcn.net> iptables -L if your using iptables, if your using the older ipchains ... it might be similar. if you are using nat, and you want to see that to, then iptables -L -t nat it is very valuable to enable iptables debugging, as you can do a dmesg or /var/log/messages and see any activity that is denied and at what rule it was denied, but you would have to have your iptables set up to do this. -tl On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:33:51 -0400 frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi, > > I made a simple firewall and I did not block some ports but some clients says my firewall blocked some ports. How do I know which ports are open and which are closed by my firewall? > > Thanks. > > Frank Peng. > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 18:53:52 2006 From: shrike-3aB5TwEFUAhAfugRpC6u6w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:53:52 -0400 Subject: How to list the ports open and closed by my firewall? In-Reply-To: <8C8351338A43100-2D88-8672-MSmFgb0UDN444ZnZnvunG7pta98KZJIQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200604231210.23999.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <8C8351338A43100-2D88-8672@mblkn-m02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200604231453.52955.shrike@heinous.org> On Sunday 23 April 2006 13:33, frankpeng-VsqqI1RANlHk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi, > > I made a simple firewall and I did not block some ports but some clients > says my firewall blocked some ports. How do I know which ports are open and > which are closed by my firewall? > > Thanks. > > Frank Peng. > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com nmap is a tool for this. http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 20:14:19 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:14:19 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Linux expo In-Reply-To: <44451384.2040501-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <44451384.2040501@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: > Just to wish the group best of Luck at the Expo, next week, > Paul Sutton (UK) Me too. I hope that there will be pictures put up afterwards ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 23 20:16:19 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:16:19 +0300 (IDT) Subject: serial sustained speed (115kBauds) Message-ID: Hi all, has anyone here got experience with sustained 115.2 kBauds on PCs running Linux ? With 16550A compatible USARTs ? I would like to know what to expect drop-wise. I.e. whether a normally loaded (<0.5) machine can cope with sustained speed of such magnitude. Anyexperiences will be welcome. Sustained means hours or days at this speed (f.ex. driving HDLC synchronous link or similar). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 03:22:27 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:22:27 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync Message-ID: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> I want to start using rsync instead of cp or scp to back up my system. Since my 160 gig "bigdrive" is USB 1.1 (don't ask), wiping the old copy of /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes/ and copying over my entire /home/waltdnes/ is painful. Just doing the differences will obviously save time. 1) Do I understand correctly that rsync will ensure that the copy is identical to the source, i.e. local files that I've changed since the last rsync will be changed on the copy, local files that have been added and deleted will be added and deleted, respectively, on the copy? I want to mirror my local directory. 2) "local backup" Given a home directory... [m3000][waltdnes][~] ll /home/ | grep waltdnes$ drwxr-xr-x 67 waltdnes users 5432 Apr 23 21:38 waltdnes Given a directory on an external USB drive [m3000][waltdnes][~] ll /mnt/bigdrive/ | grep waltdnes$ drwxr-xr-x 66 waltdnes users 5360 Apr 15 02:49 waltdnes If I understand the man page example properly, the command... rsync -a /home/waltdnes/ /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes ...will back up /home/waltdnes/ to /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes/ 3) Backup to my "hot backup" machine, a 6-year-old Dell (don't laugh, it still does 90% of what I need). Assume that I have the appropriate entries in /etc/sudoers on m450, and I've set up ssh so that "ssh m450" from my "waltdnes" user is identical to "ssh waltdnes at m450"... #!/bin/bash ssh m450 sudo /etc/init.d/rsyncd restart sleep 10 rsync -a /home/waltdnes/ m450:/misc/linkback/home/waltdnes ssh m450 sudo /etc/init.d/rsyncd stop I'm hazy on the transport, but I understand that ssh is the default. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 04:24:04 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:24:04 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" Message-ID: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as shown at CEBIT 2006. Their slogan is "Say NO to Wintel". Warning; the following link is to an 11 minute plus AVI video file. At 84,823,686 bytes, dialup users are out of luck. The link is... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 04:53:26 2006 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:53:26 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424042404.GA32390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060424005326.4c9f4b11.tleslie@tcn.net> interesting, i'd consider getting one, but i am confused about the reference to 400Mhz/800Mhz godson c2 cpu? i am assuming its 586 compat. but usually when you see Mhz staged like this, its for power vs. battery on a portable. and its not usually 50% between numbers. I couldnt see anything on this oddity, and one googl'd report just said it was a 800Mhz ... my worry is , at 400Mhz it would be to much of a dog. My dell is still a 800Mhz and generally usable, but some where between 400Mhz and 800Mhz there is a place called - extreme frustration. Be nice to hear that it performs as a true 800Mhz pent 4 would, that would be acceptable, but i am not seeing anything explaining the 400/800Mhz spec. :( -tl On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:24:04 -0400 "Walter Dnes" wrote: > US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as > shown at CEBIT 2006. Their slogan is "Say NO to Wintel". Warning; the > following link is to an 11 minute plus AVI video file. At 84,823,686 > bytes, dialup users are out of luck. The link is... > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 > > -- > Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 > My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 11:12:58 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux expo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060424111258.22278.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Peter wrote: > > > Just to wish the group best of Luck at the Expo, > next week, > > Paul Sutton (UK) > > Me too. I hope that there will be pictures put up > afterwards ... Well, you can see my take on the show last year here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8262 further, I am going to write an article on the show this year for LinuxJournal.com ... Colin McGregor > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 12:51:09 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 05:51:09 -0700 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424042404.GA32390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 4/23/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as > shown at CEBIT 2006. Their slogan is "Say NO to Wintel". Warning; the > following link is to an 11 minute plus AVI video file. At 84,823,686 > bytes, dialup users are out of luck. The link is... > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 Here's the vendor web site: http://yellowsheepriver.org/products.html What this has is a 64 bit MIPS CPU. In effect, it may well be (underneath) is the "MIPS Holy Grail," namely a "commodity" motherboard for 64 bit MIPS. The reason why we never saw interesting deployments (in quantity) of ARM, PPC, and MIPS-based Linux systems is that there weren't vendors offering $100 motherboards. There was a brief existence of "not outrageously priced" Alpha hardware, but for the other architectures, you had little way to get "commodity" hardware for them. You could only get $100 motherboards for Intel (and clones thereof) CPUs. This is actually fairly exciting, even if the CPU is somewhat wimpy. First generation may be wimpy, but if it sells, at all, there can be later generations... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 13:40:29 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:40:29 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <20060424032227.GA31705-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > I want to start using rsync instead of cp or scp to back up my system. > Since my 160 gig "bigdrive" is USB 1.1 (don't ask), wiping the old copy > of /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes/ and copying over my entire /home/waltdnes/ is > painful. Just doing the differences will obviously save time. > > 1) Do I understand correctly that rsync will ensure that the copy is > identical to the source, i.e. local files that I've changed since the > last rsync will be changed on the copy, local files that have been > added and deleted will be added and deleted, respectively, on the copy? > I want to mirror my local directory. > I use rsync to mirror my home directory to an external USB drive. To ensure that deleted files are also removed on your backup drive requires the "--delete" option. For example, to mirror my home directory to my backup drive mounted at "/media/backup" I execute: rsync -av --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ Be careful using the delete option. Before running this command, its good to do a test run using the "-n" option: rsync -avn --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ | less ...and just page through the output to ensure that rsync is doing what you want it to do. Some things like the cache directory in Firefox you might want to exclude to save time: rsync -av --delete --exclude "Cache/" /home/daniel/ media/backup/daniel/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 13:43:56 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:43:56 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604240643s2cfe90c4gc50ae399a87938ec@mail.gmail.com> On 4/24/06, Daniel Armstrong wrote: > ...and just page through the output to ensure that rsync is doing what > you want it to do. Some things like the cache directory in Firefox you > might want to exclude to save time: > > rsync -av --delete --exclude "Cache/" /home/daniel/ media/backup/daniel/ > Whoops... forgot the slash... should be... rsync -av --delete --exclude "Cache/" /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 14:44:49 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:44:49 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424005326.4c9f4b11.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> <20060424005326.4c9f4b11.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20060424144449.GO4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 12:53:26AM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > interesting, > i'd consider getting one, > but i am confused about the reference to 400Mhz/800Mhz godson c2 cpu? > i am assuming its 586 compat. but usually when you see Mhz staged like this, > its for power vs. battery on a portable. and its not usually 50% between numbers. > I couldnt see anything on this oddity, and one googl'd report just said it > was a 800Mhz ... > my worry is , at 400Mhz it would be to much of a dog. > My dell is still a 800Mhz and generally usable, but some where between 400Mhz and 800Mhz > there is a place called - extreme frustration. > Be nice to hear that it performs as a true 800Mhz pent 4 would, that would be acceptable, > but i am not seeing anything explaining the 400/800Mhz spec. :( Many modern CPUs have frequency changing on the fly based on load. Saves power and makes less heat as a result. When they are idle the slow down. That said, don't expect any VIA cpu at 800mhz to be anywhere near the speed of an amd or intel at 800mhz. They are very different designs made for very different purposes. AMD is quite justified in rating their 500MHz geode LX as an 800 because they compare it to a VIA. The VIAs are nice cheap low power CPUs though, although I would rather have a Geode NX or even LX based system myself to play with. Those are much harder to find though. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 14:56:13 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:56:13 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060424145612.GP4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 05:51:09AM -0700, Christopher Browne wrote: > Here's the vendor web site: > http://yellowsheepriver.org/products.html > > What this has is a 64 bit MIPS CPU. Neat. It's the chinese mips clone I remember reading about a few years ago. Nice to see they got it working. > In effect, it may well be (underneath) is the "MIPS Holy Grail," > namely a "commodity" motherboard for 64 bit MIPS. > > The reason why we never saw interesting deployments (in quantity) of > ARM, PPC, and MIPS-based Linux systems is that there weren't vendors > offering $100 motherboards. There was a brief existence of "not > outrageously priced" Alpha hardware, but for the other architectures, > you had little way to get "commodity" hardware for them. You could > only get $100 motherboards for Intel (and clones thereof) CPUs. ARM is gaining a lot of popularity due to the NSLU2. > This is actually fairly exciting, even if the CPU is somewhat wimpy. > First generation may be wimpy, but if it sells, at all, there can be > later generations... Hard to find anything that compares at that price. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 14:58:49 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:58:49 -0400 Subject: serial sustained speed (115kBauds) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060424145849.GQ4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 11:16:19PM +0300, Peter wrote: > has anyone here got experience with sustained 115.2 kBauds on PCs > running Linux ? With 16550A compatible USARTs ? I would like to know > what to expect drop-wise. I.e. whether a normally loaded (<0.5) machine > can cope with sustained speed of such magnitude. Anyexperiences will be > welcome. Sustained means hours or days at this speed (f.ex. driving HDLC > synchronous link or similar). I would expect any decent PC to keep up with 115200. I would expect a 486 to keep up with that if it wasn't busy, as long as the UART is buffered (which a 16550A is). I haven't done any synchronous connections over serial port on a PC though so I am not sure what that would involve. HDLC over T1/E1 seems fine on a 266MHz geode though. :) The hardware probably helps out a bit though. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 15:29:58 2006 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: April 25th. NewTLUG meeting: The What, Why and How of Linux Distributions (reminder) Message-ID: This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held Tues April 25th., 7:00pm at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, during the LinuxWorld and NetworkWorld Conference & Expo Topic: The What, Why and How of Linux Distributions: 1) What is a Distribution? 2) Why there are so many diverse Linux distributions and how users benefit from the choice. 2) How To Choose One Linux Distribution Over Another: A number of local power users will discuss a few of the more prominent distributions and explain why they chose one over another. Scheduled Distribution discussion and speakers are: - Debian & Knoppix - Colin McGregor - Fedora - Paul Mora - Mandriva - Evan Leibovitch - PCLinuxOS and SimplyMEPIS - Geoff Mitchell - Ubuntu - David Patrick Time, Date and Location: Date: April 25, 2006 Time: 7:00 to 10:00pm Room: 201D LinuxWorld and NetworkWorld Conference & Expo April 24-26, at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre see If you haven't already, you have until *April 23* to claim your *free* pass to the tradeshow: -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 18:47:22 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:47:22 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question Message-ID: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> Hi all, I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. For example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type in your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've been googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfriedt-u6hQ6WWl8Q3d1t4wvoaeXtBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 15:07:39 2006 From: cfriedt-u6hQ6WWl8Q3d1t4wvoaeXtBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Christopher Friedt) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:07:39 +0000 Subject: LinuxWorld volounteer's meeting tonight In-Reply-To: <20060424111258.22278.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424111258.22278.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <444CE9BB.70100@visible-assets.com> Sorry to post this on the list, but my messages to Colin haven't received any replies, so I'm guessing that they aren't making it to his inbox. I'm supposed to be volounteering with the TLUG booth tomorrow & wednesday, but I won't be able to make the 7:00 meeting tonight because I have a language course between 6 and 8:30. Could someone fill me in on what I miss at the 7:00 meeting? Email me directly at cfriedt-u6hQ6WWl8Q3d1t4wvoaeXtBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org if you prefer, or call me @ 416 829 4131. Thanks a bunch in advance ;-) ~/Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 19:12:06 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:12:06 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444D1D3A.1080209-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200604241512.06443.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Monday 24 April 2006 14:47, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. > For example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type > in your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I > don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). > > Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've > been googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! > > Madison Supposedly this is built into OOWriter, so that exporting ( properly made ) forms made in OOWriter become PDF forms as well. http://documentation.openoffice.org/manuals/oooauthors2/0215WG-UsingFormsInWriter.pdf -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 19:15:26 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:15:26 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <200604241512.06443.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <200604241512.06443.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <444D23CE.40507@alteeve.com> Jason Shein wrote: > On Monday 24 April 2006 14:47, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. >> For example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type >> in your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I >> don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). >> >> Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've >> been googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! >> >> Madison > > Supposedly this is built into OOWriter, so that exporting ( properly made ) > forms made in OOWriter become PDF forms as well. > > http://documentation.openoffice.org/manuals/oooauthors2/0215WG-UsingFormsInWriter.pdf > > Wonderful, thank you!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 20:02:10 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:02:10 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444D1D3A.1080209-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20060424200210.GR4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 02:47:22PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. > For example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type > in your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I > don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). > > Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've > been googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! I doubt it can do that (yet). I think right now it just generates PDFs the way it makes postscript. The way adobe makes forms and thumbnails and hyperlinsk and all that involves more complex tools as far as I can tell. I don't imagine setting up form fields in openoffice is enough to make it happen. scribus seems to do forms somewhat, although not the same way acrobat does them. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 21:22:14 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re Reminder: Ottawa Linux Symposium registration deadline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:37:27 -0800 | From: Jason Spiro | Subject: [TLUG]: Reminder: Linux Symposium early bird deadline is tomorrow; | also, LinuxWorld/NetWorkWorld Expo | The Ottawa Linux Symposium is coming up. | The conference is from Wed. July 19th to Sat. night July 22nd. You end | up staying longer if you also register for the extra desktop | developers' / Kernel Summit / GCC conferences that are before and | after. The OLS website is http://www.linuxsymposium.org if you're | interested. At http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Linux_Symposium there | are links to the sister conference websites. | | Normal early registration is $350 ($200 for students.) If you register | today or tomorrow, it's $300 ($150 for students). The next deadline is coming up: $350 if you register before the end of the month. I just registered. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 21:56:29 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424042404.GA32390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 This is Flash. It won't work on my Municator :-( Just kidding. It won't work on my x86_64 Linux. | US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as | shown at CEBIT 2006. Nice price point. I think. Depends on what it is for. Probably not a great desktop. If it can run headless, it might have a bunch of appliance applications. A bit more expensive than a router and not enough ethernet ports to do that job (two would be the minimum; I don't think USBs are a suitable substitute, but I may be wrong). I don't know what 400/800 means. Usually these split speeds mean something bad. Factory options include WiFi "WLAN card". But it also speaks of WiFi via USB dongle. So I suspect that there is no minipci slot. | From: Christopher Browne | What this has is a 64 bit MIPS CPU. Better than my Linksys router which only has 32-bit MIPS. On the other hand, little that either the router or this box does can benefit from 64-bit processing. (My router was a lot cheaper but it isn't as expandable; memory is limited to 32M, for example; it does run headless.) The company's address is in Macau. A Portugese colony until 1999. Now a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China. Kind of like Hong Kong. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 22:05:50 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:05:50 +0000 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 4/24/06, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as > | shown at CEBIT 2006. > > Nice price point. I think. Depends on what it is for. Probably not > a great desktop. > > If it can run headless, it might have a bunch of appliance > applications. Ah, but if it can run as a "poor man's desktop," there's a *huge* Chinese market for that... > I don't know what 400/800 means. Usually these split speeds mean > something bad. It may be a case of having the option of slowing down to cut power usage. That could be useful, maybehaps. Particularly for "appliance-like" applications. Or when someone walks away for a while... > Factory options include WiFi "WLAN card". But it also speaks of WiFi > via USB dongle. So I suspect that there is no minipci slot. I'd be surprised if it was terribly expandable. > | From: Christopher Browne > > | What this has is a 64 bit MIPS CPU. > > Better than my Linksys router which only has 32-bit MIPS. On the > other hand, little that either the router or this box does can benefit > from 64-bit processing. (My router was a lot cheaper but it isn't as > expandable; memory is limited to 32M, for example; it does run > headless.) Agreed. The case where 64 bits is worthwhile involves either: a) An application that's nearly DSP-like b) >2GB of RAM A "wimpy PC" won't be a place where 64 bits is particularly interesting... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Steven.Nagy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 23:33:15 2006 From: Steven.Nagy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Steven Nagy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:33:15 -0400 Subject: Linux expo fee Message-ID: <20060424233317.E5AC0121343@acheron.ss.org> Hi everybody, It's a bit late now to register for the expo online, but I was quite busy and I realized too late that the online registration closed. Do I have to pay 50$ if I want to register at the event tomorrow afternoon? Is the event closing around 5PM every day? Thank you for the answers, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 23:51:21 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:51:21 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444D1D3A.1080209-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <444D6479.1010305@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. For > example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type in > your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I > don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). > > Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've been > googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! IIRC, you need Adobe Reader v7 on Windows for that. Of course you can print anything to a PDF in Linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 24 23:59:38 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:59:38 -0400 Subject: Linux expo fee In-Reply-To: <20060424233317.E5AC0121343-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424233317.E5AC0121343@acheron.ss.org> Message-ID: <444D666A.6060502@telly.org> Steven Nagy wrote: > Hi everybody, > > It?s a bit late now to register for the expo online, but I was quite > busy and I realized too late that the online registration closed. > > Do I have to pay 50$ if I want to register at the event tomorrow > afternoon? > No. Download and print http://www.lwnwexpo.plumcom.ca/pdfs/LWNW_Tradeshow_Pass.pdf and bring it with you to the show. You'll still have to endure the line-ups but at least you won't be caught with the fee. > Is the event closing around 5PM every day? > The exhibit hall is open 11-6 on Tuesday and 11-5 on Wednesday. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 00:08:39 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:08:39 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424042404.GA32390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <444D6887.4080906@telly.org> Walter Dnes wrote: > US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as >shown at CEBIT 2006. Their slogan is "Say NO to Wintel". Warning; the >following link is to an 11 minute plus AVI video file. At 84,823,686 >bytes, dialup users are out of luck. The link is... >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 > > For those who want to see specs and stuff, go to http://www.yellowsheepriver.org/ - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From irussell30-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 00:57:24 2006 From: irussell30-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Iain Russell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:57:24 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> Hi There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), that allows you to generate a pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, but there might be a version that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... Regards Iain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madison Kelly" To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 2:47 PM Subject: [TLUG]: OpenOffice / PDF question > Hi all, > > I've seen PDFs (ie: from the government) that had editable fields. > For example, where it asked for your name you could click on it and type > in your name. Once you were done, you printed the PDF with your data (I > don't think you could re-save the PDF with your data). > > Has anyone done this in OpenOffice 2.0? Is it even possible? I've > been googling and rtfm'ing to no avail. Thanks!! > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 01:34:06 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:34:06 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18-v9kHpEKRHsj1SG5uegYMGbDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <444D7C8E.10103@rogers.com> Iain Russell wrote: > Hi > > There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), that allows you to generate a > pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, but there might be a version > that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... OO can already create PDFs on it's own. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 02:54:16 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:54:16 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <20060424042404.GA32390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1e55af990604241954q259d2f06i85f060975cf7531@mail.gmail.com> On 4/24/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > US$146 super-compact computer running (taa-daa) linux on a VIA chip as > shown at CEBIT 2006. Their slogan is "Say NO to Wintel". Warning; the > following link is to an 11 minute plus AVI video file. At 84,823,686 > bytes, dialup users are out of luck. The link is... > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9203462148706105599 Cute. Reminds me of a game console. Thanks for sharing. Would I get one? Well.. it has some serious cuteness factor, plus it's quiet. If I could run my own software on it then maybe, but since I can't (since much of my software won't compile on it) I wouldn't be interested. How long would it take for MAME to get ported to it? *blink* -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 04:09:36 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:09:36 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604240643s2cfe90c4gc50ae399a87938ec-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> <61e9e2b10604240643s2cfe90c4gc50ae399a87938ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060425040936.GA2113@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:43:56AM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote > rsync -av --delete --exclude "Cache/" /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ Do I understand correctly that you can say "Cache/" instead of "/home/danial/.mozilla/firefox/blahblahblah.default/Cache/" ? That would be nice. While we're at it, my setup is a bit unusual in that I point both my email and usenet spools into my home directory. Email is OK. Usenet, could be interesting. I'd like to save the structure of the usenet directories, plus the ".minmax" file in each group, without actually saving a gazillion articles. My current backup script starts off with... if [ -a /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip ]; then rm /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip fi zip -9r /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip /home/waltdnes/spoolastra/* -i */.minmax This saves the structure in a zip file in my home directory. This zip file gets backed up as part of the backup. I exclude /home/waltdnes/spoolastra/slrnpull/news/* from tar. As a start, here's what I'm looking at so far... #!/bin/bash if [ -a /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip ]; then rm /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip fi zip -9r /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip /home/waltdnes/spoolastra/* -i */.minmax rsync -av --delete --exclude-from=.excludersync /home/waltdnes/ \ /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes/ The file ~/.excludersync would contain the lines... /home/waltdnes/spoolastra/slrnpull/news/ /home/waltdnes/.mozilla/firefox/account1.default/Cache /home/waltdnes/.mozilla/firefox/account2.default/Cache ...and possibly others. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 10:24:17 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 06:24:17 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <20060425040936.GA2113-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> <61e9e2b10604240643s2cfe90c4gc50ae399a87938ec@mail.gmail.com> <20060425040936.GA2113@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <444DF8D1.7070002@rogers.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:43:56AM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote > >> rsync -av --delete --exclude "Cache/" /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ > > Do I understand correctly that you can say "Cache/" instead of > "/home/danial/.mozilla/firefox/blahblahblah.default/Cache/" ? That > would be nice. No, it means you can say "Cache/" instead of > "/home/danial/.mozilla/firefox/yadayadayada.default/Cache/" ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 12:54:51 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:54:51 -0400 Subject: Awesome demo of "Municator" In-Reply-To: <1e55af990604241954q259d2f06i85f060975cf7531-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424042404.GA32390@waltdnes.org> <1e55af990604241954q259d2f06i85f060975cf7531@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060425125451.GS4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 10:54:16PM -0400, Sy Ali wrote: > Cute. Reminds me of a game console. Thanks for sharing. > > Would I get one? Well.. it has some serious cuteness factor, plus > it's quiet. If I could run my own software on it then maybe, but > since I can't (since much of my software won't compile on it) I > wouldn't be interested. > > How long would it take for MAME to get ported to it? *blink* xmame would probably compile and run (although probably not that fast) on it. Probably similar to me running mame on an athlon 700. Then again it might be a bit faster, since x86 was never a good architecture for emulating other cpus. Maybe I should get one of these and an nslu2 to get more architectures for running debian on. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 12:55:55 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:55:55 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444D6479.1010305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <444D6479.1010305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060425125555.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 07:51:21PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > IIRC, you need Adobe Reader v7 on Windows for that. Of course you can > print anything to a PDF in Linux. Adobe reader 7 on linux won't view them? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 13:43:08 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:43:08 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <20060425125555.GT4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <444D6479.1010305@rogers.com> <20060425125555.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <444E276C.7080408@alteeve.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 07:51:21PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> IIRC, you need Adobe Reader v7 on Windows for that. Of course you can >> print anything to a PDF in Linux. > > Adobe reader 7 on linux won't view them? Hi Len, I was asking about creating PDFs will user-input fields... Something that OOo doesn't seem able to do (yet). Jason pointed out a great document that I am reading that *might* let me do it, well see. Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 13:44:27 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:44:27 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18-v9kHpEKRHsj1SG5uegYMGbDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <444E27BB.9020009@alteeve.com> Iain Russell wrote: > Hi > > There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), that allows you to generate a > pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, but there might be a version > that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... Hi Iain, Nope, only for Windows. Looked like a neat program otherwise though. I have a windows machine here at work that I might try installing it on if I can't find any other way to do it. Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 13:46:48 2006 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:46:48 -0400 Subject: Debian Repository GPG question for Opera Message-ID: Hi, I'm running Debian and added the Opera Debian repository (SID) to my sources.list and was able to apt-get the opera browser this way. However, I got the message that it was an untrusted source (I have to import the GPG key, but I have not been able to find out where to get the proper key for this repository)... Thanks for any help. Hopefully see some of you tomorrow at LinuxWorld! -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 13:58:42 2006 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Network Symbology Message-ID: <1927.209.161.207.36.1145973522.squirrel@209.161.207.36> Does anyone know if there is a standardized set (ISO, ASTM, etc) of network symbols? Thanks, Stephen -- Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 33A King Street West Dundas, ON L9H 1T5 CANADA Tel: (905) 627-1302 Fax: (905) 627-5022 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 14:51:16 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:51:16 -0400 Subject: Debian Repository GPG question for Opera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060425145116.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:46:48AM -0400, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'm running Debian and added the Opera Debian repository (SID) to my > sources.list and was able to apt-get the opera browser this way. > However, I got the message that it was an untrusted source (I have to > import the GPG key, but I have not been able to find out where to get > the proper key for this repository)... > > Thanks for any help. Hopefully see some of you tomorrow at LinuxWorld! You could contact opera and tell them to please sign their release file so that debian doesn't complain about it not being able to verify. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 15:12:10 2006 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:12:10 -0400 Subject: Debian Repository GPG question for Opera In-Reply-To: <20060425145116.GU4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20060425145116.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > You could contact opera and tell them to please sign their release file > so that debian doesn't complain about it not being able to verify. > > Len Sorensen > -- Hi Len, If you think they will listen to me, then I will do that... :-) I thought maybe there was a different specific key that I had to get, like I needed to do for the Marillat Repositories. Or I can just ignore the security message... -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 15:14:58 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:14:58 -0400 Subject: Debian Repository GPG question for Opera In-Reply-To: References: <20060425145116.GU4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060425151458.GV4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 11:12:10AM -0400, bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > If you think they will listen to me, then I will do that... :-) They might. > I thought maybe there was a different specific key that I had to get, > like I needed to do for the Marillat Repositories. You aren't missing a key since they didn't even sign it in the first place. Maybe they just hadn't realized it since many people just download the deb from the web page and don't know it has a repository available. Sarge doesn't check release signatures so it would be working fine as it is. > Or I can just ignore the security message... You can just ignore it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 17:26:52 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:26:52 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444E27BB.9020009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> <444E27BB.9020009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <444E5BDC.8030801@zen.co.uk> Openoffice.org can export files to PDF, Paul Madison Kelly wrote: > Iain Russell wrote: > >> Hi >> >> There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), >> that allows you to generate a >> pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, >> but there might be a version >> that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... > > > Hi Iain, > > Nope, only for Windows. Looked like a neat program otherwise though. > I have a windows machine here at work that I might try installing it > on if I can't find any other way to do it. > > Thanks! > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- http://www.zleap.net http://www.openoffice.org http://www.linux.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.1 GIT d S: a C+++ UL++++ P+ L++ W++ N+ W--- O! V! PS+ Y! t+++ 5 X+++ R tv- b- DI! D++ G e H! r! z? -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK---- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 17:33:51 2006 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:33:51 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444E5BDC.8030801-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> <444E27BB.9020009@alteeve.com> <444E5BDC.8030801@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <444E5D7F.7070508@alteeve.com> Yes, but the question is can it create PDFs with user-input fields (a la government forms and such). Madison Paul Sutton wrote: > Openoffice.org can export files to PDF, > Paul > > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Iain Russell wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), >>> that allows you to generate a >>> pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, >>> but there might be a version >>> that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... >> >> >> Hi Iain, >> >> Nope, only for Windows. Looked like a neat program otherwise though. >> I have a windows machine here at work that I might try installing it >> on if I can't find any other way to do it. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 18:23:10 2006 From: jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (J. Schaap) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:23:10 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444E5D7F.7070508-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> <444E27BB.9020009@alteeve.com> <444E5BDC.8030801@zen.co.uk> <444E5D7F.7070508@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1145989390.11959.19.camel@lnx2.scx.ca> In OOo2.x Java has to be enabled. Open a XML Form (Under: File > New > XML Form Document). Insert text boxes, Option buttons, Check boxes, etc. Safe file or export to pdf. In Adobe reader 7.0 the fields can be filled, clicked etc. I have made some simple forms with fillable text and check boxes and exported these as fillable pdf forms. All in Linux, including Adobe Reader. Adobe Reader will not save the the file but it can be printed (A popup in Adobe Reader will tell you to print) as a postscript file. Of course this ps file cannot be edited. I assume that list boxes, combo boxes will work too. On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 13:33 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Yes, but the question is can it create PDFs with user-input fields (a la > government forms and such). > > Madison > > Paul Sutton wrote: > > Openoffice.org can export files to PDF, > > Paul > > > > Madison Kelly wrote: > > > >> Iain Russell wrote: > >> > >>> Hi > >>> > >>> There's a program called PDFcreator (you'll find it on SourceForge), > >>> that allows you to generate a > >>> pdf file from a separate application - I use it with MS Word, Excel, > >>> but there might be a version > >>> that works with OpenOffice applications...not sure... > >> > >> > >> Hi Iain, > >> > >> Nope, only for Windows. Looked like a neat program otherwise though. > >> I have a windows machine here at work that I might try installing it > >> on if I can't find any other way to do it. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 25 23:59:48 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:59:48 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <20060425125555.GT4688-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <444D6479.1010305@rogers.com> <20060425125555.GT4688@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <444EB7F4.7030902@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 07:51:21PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> IIRC, you need Adobe Reader v7 on Windows for that. Of course you can >> print anything to a PDF in Linux. > > Adobe reader 7 on linux won't view them? As I understand it, it can view but not change them. I could be wrong however. It's happen once or twice before. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 03:05:03 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:05:03 -0400 Subject: Network Symbology In-Reply-To: <1927.209.161.207.36.1145973522.squirrel-ctOtsPOrP6A3X41L6F08GA@public.gmane.org> References: <1927.209.161.207.36.1145973522.squirrel@209.161.207.36> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604252005g6d1d16c6mf3bf5c84ab4ecdba@mail.gmail.com> On 4/25/06, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a standardized set (ISO, ASTM, etc) of > network symbols? An old (2003) conversation[1] at Merit Network suggests there isn't a well-defined standard, with a follow-up post pointing to some Cisco icons[2] that might be handy. There is also "A Formal Symbology For Network And Incident Visualisation"[3]. Don't think this one is a "standard", but might be useful if you require generic representations and/or wish to modify[4] the icons - say to include a corporate visual theme for website integration. [1] http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/2003-01/threads.html#00449 [2] http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac50/ac47/2.html [3] http://www.meshuggeneh.net/shoki/symbols/ [4] http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/ -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 03:22:21 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:22:21 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060426032221.GA4296@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:40:29AM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote > I use rsync to mirror my home directory to an external USB drive. To > ensure that deleted files are also removed on your backup drive > requires the "--delete" option. For example, to mirror my home > directory to my backup drive mounted at "/media/backup" I execute: > > rsync -av --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ > > Be careful using the delete option. Before running this command, its > good to do a test run using the "-n" option: > > rsync -avn --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ | less > > ...and just page through the output to ensure that rsync is doing what > you want it to do. Some things like the cache directory in Firefox you > might want to exclude to save time: After much banging of head against brick wall, accompanied by a certain amount of squishy sounds, I finally got it to do what I want it to do. It seems that while you can specify full pathnames for source and destination directories, exclude patterns are chrooted. E.g. "/home/waltdnes/spoolastra/slrnpull/news/" does *NOT* work as an exclude pattern, but "spoolastra/slrnpull/news/" does work. Is this related to "use chroot = yes" in rsyncd.conf? I don't intend to change that line, but I did waste quite a bit of time figuring this one out. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 03:23:37 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:23:37 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice / PDF question In-Reply-To: <444E27BB.9020009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444D1D3A.1080209@alteeve.com> <006a01c66803$3769a9a0$d9d28d18@budu1.on.cogeco.ca> <444E27BB.9020009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604252023s41ecadc0gd91773a99b2b3b30@mail.gmail.com> On 4/25/06, Madison Kelly wrote: > I have a windows machine here at work that I might try installing it on > if I can't find any other way to do it. It's not a tool for obtaining generic input from a user, but It does make for a great default Windoh's printer (particularly on laptops). Well worth a look-see if you're not running OOo or Adobe software. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 03:34:13 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:34:13 -0400 Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> >From Wired.com "The European Commission forced the world's largest software maker to offer a product no one wanted and no one bought, Microsoft told a European Union court on Monday as it began trying to overturn a landmark antitrust ruling." Umm... Ok, now that's an interesting angle. Don't you just hate it when countries force companies to sell their wares. (Or is that warez?) http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,70722-0.html?tw=rss.politics -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." - John F. Kennedy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 05:32:38 2006 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 01:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cheapish video card for Linux Message-ID: As I understand it, the latest ATI video card that has an open source driver with 3d acceleration is the 9250. I've also heard that it might cease to be manufactured soon (but I actually doubt this). CTY is selling this model cheap -- $35.99 this week. This may not be the best one possible. (AGP, 128M, s-video and VGA out). http://www.cty.ca/specials.htm Canada Computers has several models based on this chip. One with the same features as the CTY one, plus a DVI out, costs $43.99. Well worth it if you might want to drive two displays or to drive a good LCD (one with DVI). http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=006186&cid=999.821&PHPSESSID=a417dc5c68a6f1b694f71f2ba51670b4 Another one uses PCI instead of agp, but is significantly pricier at $73.99: http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=005884&cid=999.876&PHPSESSID=a417dc5c68a6f1b694f71f2ba51670b4 They have other models too, but the descriptions are not complete. Oh, filtechcomputer.com beats Canada Computer's prices by a bit. Other stores may too. Some models have 64-bit access to memory and some have 128-bit. The specs are not clear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 07:40:48 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:40:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Toronto Linux Meetup Message-ID: Is anyone going to this on May 2: http://linux.meetup.com/22/events/4892870/?a=cn1_cn2&gj=ej3 Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 10:22:40 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:22:40 -0400 Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444F49F0.3090602@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: >>From Wired.com > > "The European Commission forced the world's largest software maker to > offer a product no one wanted and no one bought, Microsoft told a > European Union court on Monday as it began trying to overturn a > landmark antitrust ruling." > > Umm... Ok, now that's an interesting angle. Don't you just hate it > when countries force companies to sell their wares. (Or is that > warez?) > > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,70722-0.html?tw=rss.politics It's curious how MS maintains that things like Internet Explorer and Media Player have to be part of the operating system, when other companies and operating systems do just fine keeping that sort of things as applications, particularly when you consider that it was the tight binding of IE into Windows that has resulted in so many security flaws. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 11:02:16 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:02:16 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' In-Reply-To: <444F49F0.3090602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> <444F49F0.3090602@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, James Knott wrote: > It's curious how MS maintains that things like Internet Explorer and > Media Player have to be part of the operating system, when other > companies and operating systems do just fine keeping that sort of things > as applications, particularly when you consider that it was the tight > binding of IE into Windows that has resulted in so many security flaws. I think that the whole thing, lawsuit and primary motive included, is a kind of a closed source joke. If it had been open source, there would have been no difficulty in adding or deleting players at will, by integrators or by users. This lawsuit is an integral part of the closed source circus. And it is far from having reached a limit of any kind. I do not think that the relevant people realise that this is just a drop in an ocean. Yesterday it was serial comms programs and then it was spreadsheets and text editors and then it was browsers and now it's media players. Tomorrow it could be USB-powered electric toothbrushes, and who knows what else after that. This is an ongoing process in which a well-placed company uses every possible leverage to increase and maintain its market share. These people are in the game for the money, not the product or its quality. That has passed to the second or N-th plane aeons ago. If they feel they will have something to gain by locking someone else out, they will do it. It is not called 'locking out', it is called 'integration' or 'safe default settings' or whatever, but it amounts to the same thing. With a track record like they have, it would be logically wrong not to try to lock someone out. They have succeeded with this tactic in, what, 8 cases out of 10 in the last 10 years or so. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 14:40:00 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:40:00 -0400 Subject: VNC fails to start Message-ID: <1146062400.444f8640aa728@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Hi, I'm trying to access my computer at home by using VNC through Firefox. I just changed my router settings last night so that my internal IP is static and updated the port forwarding table to reflect the IP. I also use ssh and can connect to ther computer no problem via ssh but when trying to connect to the server via Firefox, I get the Java loading screen then it fails with a message in the status bar saying "Loading Java Applet Failed". I'm fairly certain I've set everything up correctly because I was able to VNC to the machine from itself by using my external IP. Am I missing something here? Thanks. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:08:47 2006 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:08:47 -0400 Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> <444F49F0.3090602@rogers.com> Message-ID: <92ee967a0604260808n5c6c5f39l7939d5d115c78061@mail.gmail.com> > These people are in the game for the money, not the product or its > quality. ... Just like Wired. I can't bear to read them anymore. I'm sure they're just exaggerating about something somebody at MS said so as to express an inflamatory viewpoint that matches stereotypes about the company. Does anybody know if the AP article was given to any other news sources or does Wired have exclusive rights to that article? There are a few similar articles out there, but none I found worded identically. Could the author be tailoring the spin for their customer publications? I wonder if MCP Magazine will pick up a variant :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:29:39 2006 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:29:39 +0100 Subject: Network Symbology In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0604252005g6d1d16c6mf3bf5c84ab4ecdba-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1927.209.161.207.36.1145973522.squirrel@209.161.207.36> <99a6c38f0604252005g6d1d16c6mf3bf5c84ab4ecdba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444F91E3.6050609@zen.co.uk> I think the same problem is aparent in electronics, the US symbol for an AND gate is different to that of British Standard, even though most people use the US standards, there is no one world wide agreement on standards, on advantge with the US one is that it saves people from attempting to draw a & which is not easy, really, Paul Scott Elcomb wrote: >On 4/25/06, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > > >>Does anyone know if there is a standardized set (ISO, ASTM, etc) of >>network symbols? >> >> > >An old (2003) conversation[1] at Merit Network suggests there isn't a >well-defined standard, with a follow-up post pointing to some Cisco >icons[2] that might be handy. > >There is also "A Formal Symbology For Network And Incident >Visualisation"[3]. Don't think this one is a "standard", but might be >useful if you require generic representations and/or wish to modify[4] >the icons - say to include a corporate visual theme for website >integration. > >[1] http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/2003-01/threads.html#00449 >[2] http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac50/ac47/2.html >[3] http://www.meshuggeneh.net/shoki/symbols/ >[4] http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/ > >-- >Scott Elcomb >psema4.gotdns.com > >"A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be >peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care >enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a >revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We >can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability." > > - John F. Kennedy >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- http://www.zleap.net http://www.openoffice.org http://www.linux.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.1 GIT d S: a C+++ UL++++ P+ L++ W++ N+ W--- O! V! PS+ Y! t+++ 5 X+++ R tv- b- DI! D++ G e H! r! z? -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK---- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:39:38 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:39:38 +0000 Subject: cheapish video card for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/26/06, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Some models have 64-bit access to memory and some have 128-bit. The > specs are not clear. There's getting to be some interesting secondary uses for these cards; they tend to have higher speed memory interfaces than your general purpose CPU has got,. http://www.gpgpu.org/ The interesting peer reviewed thing was that a group (including Jim Gray, one of the database/transaction "famed authors") found that using GPUs to help do Big Sorts turned out to provide a pretty big performance boost. Nifty case that may be somewhat practical to use, as long as you have a suitable nVidia card (ATI not supported): http://gamma.cs.unc.edu/GPUSORT/ What is kind of interesting is that this allows us to revisit tape sort algorithms, that section of Knuth that we all thought was essentially useless because "nobody uses tape anymore." (On a similar note, PostgreSQL 8.2 looks like it will be using a more sophisticated tape sorting system from Knuth; there has been some talk about GPUSORT, not that people are ready to trust it, yet...) Waterloo's CGL has implemented a metaprogramming system for graphics cards called Sh; see . The obvious "wins" relate to graphics, but there are some pretty neat non-graphical applications. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From papking-12iEnVOfRRN3dIFgGiF13tBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:40:59 2006 From: papking-12iEnVOfRRN3dIFgGiF13tBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Paul Apking) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:40:59 -0400 Subject: Deploying windows updates with Linux? Message-ID: <444F948B.6060902@equitabletrust.com> Does anyone know a good tool to do this with Linux? -- Regards, Paul Apking Network Administrator The Equitable Trust Company 30 St. Clair St. West Toronto, Ont. M4V 3A1 Ph: 416-515-2299 Mobile: 416-624-6079 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:49:18 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:49:18 -0400 Subject: Open port Message-ID: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> I have just finished a fresh install of Debian, and while hunting down a different problem I noted that I have an odd, open port on my system. Here's the output of nmap localhost: Starting Nmap 4.00 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2006-04-26 11:43 EDT Interesting ports on localhost (127.0.0.1): (The 1665 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed) PORT STATE SERVICE 22/tcp open ssh 25/tcp open smtp 111/tcp open rpcbind 113/tcp open auth 443/tcp open https 816/tcp open unknown 2628/tcp open dict Nmap finished: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 0.285 seconds What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost 816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate this. Any suggestions? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:49:17 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:49:17 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Network Symbology In-Reply-To: <444F91E3.6050609-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <1927.209.161.207.36.1145973522.squirrel@209.161.207.36> <99a6c38f0604252005g6d1d16c6mf3bf5c84ab4ecdba@mail.gmail.com> <444F91E3.6050609@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Paul Sutton wrote: > I think the same problem is aparent in electronics, the US symbol for an AND > gate is different to that of British Standard, even though most people use > the US standards, there is no one world wide agreement on standards, on > advantge with the US one is that it saves people from attempting to draw a & > which is not easy, really, It is not so simple. There are actually three systems in use, the US type, the old Euro style and the new Euro style (IEC/DIN). The latter is the boxy kind with normed symbols for the control and buffer sections of chips. >From the drawing point of view, the old Euro style is the easiest imho. The US style requires wiggly lines for resistors and lots of neat curves for gates. These are hard to draw and many old cad packages used to approximate curves with straight segments, which guaranteed an ugly appearence. The old Euro style uses boxes or triangles for everything (even resistors), and is by far the easiest to draw by hand. The new Euro style is the hardest to draw by hand and requires minutes of poring over datasheets for each part to get the details right (arrow, half arrow or circle and as before, to indicate signal direction for each pin). So nobody really draws the new style Euro schematics without a CAD package. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 15:56:44 2006 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:56:44 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060426154918.GA17634-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20060426155644.GA27779@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> What does netstat tell you? -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux System Administrator | Uptime 2 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 16:02:46 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:02:46 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Deploying windows updates with Linux? In-Reply-To: <444F948B.6060902-SHEVDZ1kpJ4gvB26Rb+75tBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <444F948B.6060902@equitabletrust.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Paul Apking wrote: > Does anyone know a good tool to do this with Linux? Apache ? Samba ? If you use a trusted site you can make the users visit it (secure too) and the package would be downloaded and installed (by a webpage that you get to write). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 16:10:47 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:10:47 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060426155644.GA27779-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060426155644.GA27779@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20060426161047.GA17775@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:56:44AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: >What does netstat tell you? It doesn't tell *me* anything - I don't know what the results mean, or how to interpret them. If it would help you though, here is the output from netstat -l (I'm hoping this is the right command): Active Internet connections (only servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address State tcp 0 0 *:dict *:* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *:sunrpc *:* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *:816 *:* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *:auth *:* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *:smtp *:* LISTEN tcp 0 0 localhost:6010 *:* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 *:ssh *:* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 *:smtp *:* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 ip6-localhost:6010 *:* LISTEN tcp6 0 0 *:https *:* LISTEN udp 0 0 *:810 *:* udp 0 0 *:813 *:* udp 0 0 *:sunrpc *:* Active UNIX domain sockets (only servers) Proto RefCnt Flags Type State I-Node Path unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 10431 /tmp/.font-unix/fs7100 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 84204 /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 84277 /tmp/ssh-HKPxW15394/agent.15394 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 84313 /tmp/.ICE-unix/15399 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 18088 /tmp/orbit-username/linc-1c89-0-22f7432515af6 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 84365 /tmp/xmms_username.0 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 84568 /tmp/orbit-username/linc-3c3f-0-692f30f2c82e3 unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33596 private/mailman unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 87580 @/tmp/fam-username- unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 10392 /dev/printer unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33497 public/cleanup unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33508 private/rewrite unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33512 private/bounce unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33516 private/defer unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33520 private/trace unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33524 private/verify unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33528 public/flush unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33532 private/proxymap unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33536 private/smtp unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33540 private/relay unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33544 public/showq unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33548 private/error unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33556 private/local unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33560 private/virtual unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33564 private/lmtp unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33568 private/anvil unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33576 private/maildrop unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33580 private/uucp unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33584 private/ifmail unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33588 private/bsmtp unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33592 private/scalemail-backend unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33504 private/tlsmgr unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33572 private/scache unix 2 [ ACC ] STREAM LISTENING 33552 private/discard -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From papking-12iEnVOfRRN3dIFgGiF13tBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 16:15:45 2006 From: papking-12iEnVOfRRN3dIFgGiF13tBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Paul Apking) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:15:45 -0400 Subject: Deploying windows updates with Linux? In-Reply-To: References: <444F948B.6060902@equitabletrust.com> Message-ID: <444F9CB1.3060800@equitabletrust.com> We use Samba currently. Do you recommend any other utilities that can be used on linux to deploy patches and updates to windows clients? (Eg. like SUS) I've looked at WPKG, but I am wondering if there is anything more automated? Thanks, Regards, Paul Apking Network Administrator The Equitable Trust Company 30 St. Clair St. West Toronto, Ont. M4V 3A1 Ph: 416-515-2299 Mobile: 416-624-6079 Peter wrote: > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Paul Apking wrote: > >> Does anyone know a good tool to do this with Linux? > > Apache ? Samba ? If you use a trusted site you can make the users > visit it (secure too) and the package would be downloaded and > installed (by a webpage that you get to write). > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 17:08:42 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:08:42 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060426154918.GA17634-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have just finished a fresh install of Debian, and while hunting down a > different problem I noted that I have an odd, open port on my system. > Here's the output of nmap localhost: > > Starting Nmap 4.00 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2006-04-26 11:43 EDT > Interesting ports on localhost (127.0.0.1): > (The 1665 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed) > PORT STATE SERVICE > 22/tcp open ssh > 25/tcp open smtp > 111/tcp open rpcbind > 113/tcp open auth > 443/tcp open https > 816/tcp open unknown > 2628/tcp open dict > > Nmap finished: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 0.285 seconds > > What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is > different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open > port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost > 816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, > but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate > this. root# fuser -vn tcp 816 Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 17:12:35 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:12:35 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Deploying windows updates with Linux? In-Reply-To: <444F9CB1.3060800-SHEVDZ1kpJ4gvB26Rb+75tBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <444F948B.6060902@equitabletrust.com> <444F9CB1.3060800@equitabletrust.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Paul Apking wrote: > We use Samba currently. Do you recommend any other utilities that can be > used on linux to deploy patches and updates to windows clients? (Eg. > like SUS) I've looked at WPKG, but I am wondering if there is anything > more automated? Afaik you could use an automated domain logon to Samba and have the logon script execute the installation of the patch by itself, as soon as the client machine loads it (or later, to spread the load and give a chance to opt out). But I have never used such an automated script. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 17:14:36 2006 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:14:36 -0400 Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r Message-ID: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 18:12:04 2006 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: <444FAA7C.50904-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Lance F. Squire wrote: > Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? Hi Lance. This is actually a function of the filesystem type and its mount options. VFAT will mount as read-write by default, NTFS will mount as read-only in general. This is because until recently NTFS read-write support was buggy. If you have a recent enough kernel and recent enough supporting tools you will be able to get read-write mounted NTFS. To make the filesystem mount read-write when it is defaulting to read-only use something like this: mount -o rw /dev/hda1 /win If you find when doing this that it still refuses to mount read-write then the version of the kernel & tools are too old to support safe read-write access. If you just need access in order to change something recent Knoppix cdroms support read-write NTFS access. You may wish to look in /etc/fstab to look at the mount options set there too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 18:41:07 2006 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:41:07 -0400 Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <444FBEC3.9040700@alteeve.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Lance F. Squire wrote: > >> Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? > > > Hi Lance. This is actually a function of the filesystem type and its > mount options. > Thanks, but I should have included more info. My bad. Ubuntu automounts the partitions at boot. Seem to be owned by root. They are all VFAT (win 98se) Have set fstab to make them user mountable/unmountable. Currently, after boot, my wife has to umount the bartition she wants to move files to, then remount it, to get user write access. (or open a text window and 'sodo cp whatever...) What we would like is the system to come-up with the drives already user writable. 'sudo' woulden't let me set group/other writable on the /dev/hda# partitions. Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 19:06:40 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:06:40 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: <444FBEC3.9040700-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> <444FBEC3.9040700@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Lance F. Squire wrote: > What we would like is the system to come-up with the drives already user > writable. Add mount options to fstab to the effect of uid=her_user_name or umask=000 (the latter is dangerous). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 19:15:22 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:15:22 -0400 Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1146078921.444fc6ca0339b@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting Robert Brockway : > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Lance F. Squire wrote: > > > Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? > > Hi Lance. This is actually a function of the filesystem type and its mount > options. > > VFAT will mount as read-write by default, NTFS will mount as read-only in > general. This is because until recently NTFS read-write support was buggy. > > If you have a recent enough kernel and recent enough supporting tools you > will be able to get read-write mounted NTFS. To make the filesystem mount > read-write when it is defaulting to read-only use something like this: > > mount -o rw /dev/hda1 /win > > If you find when doing this that it still refuses to mount read-write then > the version of the kernel & tools are too old to support safe read-write > access. If you just need access in order to change something recent > Knoppix cdroms support read-write NTFS access. > > You may wish to look in /etc/fstab to look at the mount options set there > too. > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-905-821-2327 > Senior Technical Consultant Urgent Support: +1-416-669-3073 > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. Is writing to NTFS now working well enough to use on a day-to-day basis? ie. would you be confident in writing to an NTFS partition with a Windows install without damaging anything? For years I've been reading NTFS but have not dared to mount without the read-only option. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jbb-tOWS9K1ch1dDPfheJLI6IQ at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 19:51:02 2006 From: jbb-tOWS9K1ch1dDPfheJLI6IQ at public.gmane.org (Jordan Baker) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:51:02 -0400 Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: <444FAA7C.50904-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3846D52D-F7D3-4B21-B9D8-94F132FCAED4@contradix.com> On 26-Apr-06, at 1:14 PM, Lance F. Squire wrote: > Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? > > Lance Have you taken a look at Captive NTFS? http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/ It basically uses NT's NTFS driver with a thin NT Kernel emulation layer. Very complete implementation of NTFS and has worked well for me in the past. Not too sure about performance though.... KNOPPIX uses this I believe... Jordan Baker jbb-tOWS9K1ch1dDPfheJLI6IQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 22:31:11 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:31:11 -0500 Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604260808n5c6c5f39l7939d5d115c78061-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> <444F49F0.3090602@rogers.com> <92ee967a0604260808n5c6c5f39l7939d5d115c78061@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604261531p1b1e901id54128b3d9169f1e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, Mike Kallies wrote: > I wonder if MCP Magazine will pick up a variant :-) I hear that rumours are open source. ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 22:34:00 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:34:00 -0500 Subject: cheapish video card for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e55af990604261534p277f577oaf7f4ed799fd8326@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/26/06, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > Some models have 64-bit access to memory and some have 128-bit. The > > specs are not clear. > > There's getting to be some interesting secondary uses for these cards; > they tend to have higher speed memory interfaces than your general > purpose CPU has got,. > > http://www.gpgpu.org/ That is so cool. This is the first thing that I thought about when these wierd graphics-acceleration cards started coming out, way back when. awesome.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 23:49:02 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:49:02 -0400 Subject: Microsoft: 'We're the Victim' In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0604260808n5c6c5f39l7939d5d115c78061-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0604252034y724c400r192987f9d8449402@mail.gmail.com> <444F49F0.3090602@rogers.com> <92ee967a0604260808n5c6c5f39l7939d5d115c78061@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <445006EE.9060205@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: >> These people are in the game for the money, not the product or its >> quality. ... > > Just like Wired. > > I can't bear to read them anymore. I'm sure they're just exaggerating > about something somebody at MS said so as to express an inflamatory > viewpoint that matches stereotypes about the company. > > Does anybody know if the AP article was given to any other news > sources or does Wired have exclusive rights to that article? There > are a few similar articles out there, but none I found worded > identically. Could the author be tailoring the spin for their > customer publications? > > I wonder if MCP Magazine will pick up a variant :-) There's some stuff about it on Groklaw. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 26 23:53:27 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:53:27 -0400 Subject: Making Windows partitions user w/r In-Reply-To: <444FAA7C.50904-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <444FAA7C.50904@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <445007F7.8070305@rogers.com> Lance F. Squire wrote: > Whats the best way to make Windows partitions user writable in Ubuntu? Use FAT32 partitions and adjust umask to allow writing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 00:06:45 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:06:45 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060426161047.GA17775-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060426155644.GA27779@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> <20060426161047.GA17775@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <44500B15.1070904@lansystems.ca> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:56:44AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > > >>What does netstat tell you? >> >> > >It doesn't tell *me* anything - I don't know what the results mean, or >how to interpret them. If it would help you though, here is the output >from netstat -l (I'm hoping this is the right command): > Couple of things you can do: 1) as root run netstat -anp|grep 2628 2) fuser -n tcp 2628 (this will return the PID of the process bound to that port, then run ps on that pid) 3) lsof|grep processname (process name from step 2) 4) cat /proc//cmdline (replace with the PID #). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 13:56:24 2006 From: john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org (John Van Ostrand) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:56:24 -0400 Subject: VNC fails to start In-Reply-To: <1146062400.444f8640aa728-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1146062400.444f8640aa728@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <1146146184.20486.3.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:40 -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to access my computer at home by using VNC through Firefox. I just > changed my router settings last night so that my internal IP is static and > updated the port forwarding table to reflect the IP. I also use ssh and can > connect to ther computer no problem via ssh but when trying to connect to the > server via Firefox, I get the Java loading screen then it fails with a message > in the status bar saying "Loading Java Applet Failed". > > I'm fairly certain I've set everything up correctly because I was able to VNC to > the machine from itself by using my external IP. > > Am I missing something here? Thanks. Perhaps it's just the web server portion of VNC that is having problems (i.e. port 580x) Have you tried to use the vncviewer directly? -- John Van Ostrand Net Direct Inc. Chief Technology Officer 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 map john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org Ph: 519-883-1172 ext.5102 Linux Solutions / IBM Hardware Fx: 519-883-8533 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 14:06:31 2006 From: wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:06:31 -0400 Subject: VNC fails to start In-Reply-To: <1146146184.20486.3.camel-H4GMr3yegGDiLwdn3CfQm+4hLzXZc3VTLAPz8V8PbKw@public.gmane.org> References: <1146062400.444f8640aa728@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1146146184.20486.3.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> Message-ID: <1146146791.4450cfe7ac26a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Quoting John Van Ostrand : > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:40 -0400, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying to access my computer at home by using VNC through Firefox. I > just > > changed my router settings last night so that my internal IP is static and > > updated the port forwarding table to reflect the IP. I also use ssh and > can > > connect to ther computer no problem via ssh but when trying to connect to > the > > server via Firefox, I get the Java loading screen then it fails with a > message > > in the status bar saying "Loading Java Applet Failed". > > > > I'm fairly certain I've set everything up correctly because I was able to > VNC to > > the machine from itself by using my external IP. > > > > Am I missing something here? Thanks. > > Perhaps it's just the web server portion of VNC that is having problems > (i.e. port 580x) Have you tried to use the vncviewer directly? > > -- > John Van Ostrand > Net Direct Inc. > > Chief Technology Officer > 564 Weber St. N. Unit 12 > Waterloo, ON N2L 5C6 > map > john-Da48MpWaEp0CzWx7n4ubxQ at public.gmane.org > Ph: 519-883-1172 > ext.5102 > Linux Solutions / IBM > Hardware > Fx: 519-883-8533 > > Thanks for the advice, but it turned out to be a misconfigured router; two machines with the same IP...dumb. Tom Watts wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 14:45:33 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:45:33 -0400 Subject: Linuxworld, the day after Message-ID: <4450D90D.2030406@telly.org> Hello all, Let me be the first to comment on how well organized and executed was the GTALUG presence at LinuxWorld. It was professional and engaging. The NewTLUG meeting was well attended and IMO went quite well, even if it did run a bit long (though I will take partial responsibilty for that :-) ). In all, from what I could see it was a well-run presence and a great effort. Colin and the team are to be commended and congratulated. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 17:15:40 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:15:40 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 08:08:42PM +0300, Peter wrote: >>What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is >>different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open >>port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost >>816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, >>but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate >>this. > >root# fuser -vn tcp 816 Thank you, that tells me that the user process is "rpc.statd", which I assume is supposed to be there and nothing to worry about. Thanks also to Vince, who suggested the same thing. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 17:57:41 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:57:41 -0400 Subject: Linuxworld, the day after In-Reply-To: <4450D90D.2030406-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4450D90D.2030406@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604271057k319380fei582b06e2e92cca04@mail.gmail.com> On 4/27/06, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > In all, from what I could see it was a well-run presence and a great > effort. Colin and the team are to be commended and congratulated. Congratulations on a job well done then. I had the misfortune of not being able to make to the show at all this year. Looking forward to reading some writeups on the event. :-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 18:22:55 2006 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:22:55 -0400 Subject: http://www.explorerdestroyer.com/ Message-ID: <1146162175.5956.1.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Get this tool for switching people from IE to Firefox. For each person you switch, Google gives you $1, Microsoft loses marketshare, and an angel gets its wings. RickT -- http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 19:02:07 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:02:07 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060427171540.GA21145-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 08:08:42PM +0300, Peter wrote: > >>> What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is >>> different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open >>> port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost >>> 816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, >>> but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate >>> this. >> >> root# fuser -vn tcp 816 > > Thank you, that tells me that the user process is "rpc.statd", which I > assume is supposed to be there and nothing to worry about. Thanks also > to Vince, who suggested the same thing. Actually you should firewall it imho. Same for all rpc* ports. Do not connect to the internet with that port open. It belongs to nfs/nfsd and portmap. So stop and disable that service if not using it. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 19:45:46 2006 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:45:46 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: <20060426032221.GA4296-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> <20060426032221.GA4296@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Walter Dnes wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:40:29AM -0400, Daniel Armstrong wrote > > > I use rsync to mirror my home directory to an external USB drive. To > > ensure that deleted files are also removed on your backup drive > > requires the "--delete" option. For example, to mirror my home > > directory to my backup drive mounted at "/media/backup" I execute: > > > > rsync -av --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ > > > > Be careful using the delete option. Before running this command, its > > good to do a test run using the "-n" option: > > > > rsync -avn --delete /home/daniel/ /media/backup/daniel/ | less > > > > ...and just page through the output to ensure that rsync is doing what > > you want it to do. Some things like the cache directory in Firefox you > > might want to exclude to save time: > > After much banging of head against brick wall, accompanied by a > certain amount of squishy sounds, I finally got it to do what I want it > to do. It seems that while you can specify full pathnames for source > and destination directories, exclude patterns are chrooted. E.g. > "/home/waltdnes/spoolastra/slrnpull/news/" does *NOT* work as an exclude > pattern, but "spoolastra/slrnpull/news/" does work. Is this related to > "use chroot = yes" in rsyncd.conf? I don't intend to change that line, > but I did waste quite a bit of time figuring this one out. Walter, My condolences .. I have run into the same challenge using the 'exclude' argument with rsync. The logic behind it at the time was impenetrable -- all I know is I got it to do what I wanted, albeit with a ridiculously long command line. Someday I'll have to have a look at the code that's behind that logic .. while I'm locked safely in a padded room, of course. Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 21:02:04 2006 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:02:04 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20060427210204.GA21507@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 10:02:07PM +0300, Peter wrote: > >On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > >>On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 08:08:42PM +0300, Peter wrote: >> >>>>What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is >>>>different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open >>>>port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost >>>>816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, >>>>but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate >>>>this. >>> >>>root# fuser -vn tcp 816 >> >>Thank you, that tells me that the user process is "rpc.statd", which I >>assume is supposed to be there and nothing to worry about. Thanks also >>to Vince, who suggested the same thing. > >Actually you should firewall it imho. Same for all rpc* ports. Do not >connect to the internet with that port open. It belongs to nfs/nfsd and >portmap. So stop and disable that service if not using it. The machine is behind a firewall, which is why I wasn't too worried, but thank you. I am not using NFS, so the culprit is portmap. What does portmap do that I need? Why is it installed by default? -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 21:31:09 2006 From: devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Devin Whalen) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:31:09 -0400 Subject: OT Perl Programmer Message-ID: <1146173469.4881.85.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> Hey, The company I work for is looking for 1 or 2 Perl programmers. We are a very small company of 8 people. We develop a web application for POS companies (Point of Sale or debit and interac machines) as well as Manufacturing companies. Some of the things we work with are Perl, FreeBSD, PostgreSQL, Linux, Apache, Oracle, and DB2. Most of our work deals with a Perl web application that connects up to a PostgreSQL database on a FreeBSD server. So if you don't know Oracle that doesn't really matter we just have one client who wanted to run the application on Sun and connect up to Oracle. Here are a list of skills we would like you to have: Perl, HTML, CSS, Javascript, SQL and be comfortable with working on a *NIX machine. You don't have to be an expert in all of them or anything, this is just what our ideal candidate would have. We are located at Richmond and Bathurst. Send your resume to: info-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org The contact person is Bryan Organ. If you have any questions don't hesitate to drop me a line off list of course. Thanks. P.S. Yes, I have sent this same job posting on this list before. We hired someone on the list and now we need more people. -- Devin Whalen Programmer Synaptic Vision Inc Phone-(416) 539-0801 Fax- (416) 539-8280 543 Richmond Street West Toronto, Ontario Suite 223 M5V 1Y6 Box 105 Home-(416) 653-3982 Take back the Web with FireFox....a browser you can trust www.getfirefox.com .-. /v\ L I N U X // \\ /( )\ ^^-^^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 21:58:59 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:58:59 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060427210204.GA21507-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427210204.GA21507@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <44513EA3.3000200@utoronto.ca> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 10:02:07PM +0300, Peter wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 08:08:42PM +0300, Peter wrote: >>> >>>>> What is the "unknown" process listening on 816? I notice that this is >>>>> different port than it had before a reboot, but there was still an open >>>>> port (I think it had a port around 900-ish). If I "telnet localhost >>>>> 816" a session is opened, and I am informed that ^] is the escape key, >>>>> but that's all it says, and I don't know how to further investigate >>>>> this. >>>> root# fuser -vn tcp 816 >>> Thank you, that tells me that the user process is "rpc.statd", which I >>> assume is supposed to be there and nothing to worry about. Thanks also >>> to Vince, who suggested the same thing. >> Actually you should firewall it imho. Same for all rpc* ports. Do not >> connect to the internet with that port open. It belongs to nfs/nfsd and >> portmap. So stop and disable that service if not using it. > > The machine is behind a firewall, which is why I wasn't too worried, but > thank you. I am not using NFS, so the culprit is portmap. What does > portmap do that I need? Why is it installed by default? Portmap does exactly that, it maps specified running programs to specified (known/registered) ports on your system. In the case of NFS, incoming requests for NFS contact the portmap daemon to see where and how to contact NFS itself. It is an intermediary that occupies a crucial position in regard to NFS. Apart from that, I'm not familiar with any other programs that use it, so I can't comment on it outside of its NFS role. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 22:32:18 2006 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:32:18 +0300 (IDT) Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060427210204.GA21507-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427210204.GA21507@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > The machine is behind a firewall, which is why I wasn't too worried, but > thank you. I am not using NFS, so the culprit is portmap. What does > portmap do that I need? Why is it installed by default? Portmap is the 'mother' of all the rpc processes, i.e. nfsd, mountd, statd etc. It coordinates them and the ports they use. Normal *nix installations often use nfs and rpc (sort of rsh) and that's the rpc's main function. If you do not use nfs turn it off in all runlevels or from your admin tool. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 27 22:21:43 2006 From: caitken-Bm8TULXj0r/3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:21:43 -0400 Subject: specify own path mail file Evolution? Message-ID: <445143F7.6040205@vianet.ca> Has anyone here tried to specify your own path to the mail file (or whatever it's called in Evolution)? I want to do this for ease of backup (it's a production machine for my business). Can you let me know how to do this? I searched *all* items in Properties. Nothing looks like what I want. I've done this in Mozilla Mail and Thunderbird. I don't know how to do this in Evolution. The only thing I found that looks close is, after searching the web, an item to override server-supplied namespace. I'm not sure if this is what I want though... Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 00:21:19 2006 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:21:19 -0400 Subject: USB stick partition problems In-Reply-To: References: <441C7EA5.3070707@interlog.com> Message-ID: <44515FFF.9080206@interlog.com> bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > On 3/18/06, *Kevin Cozens* Which model of PNY stick are you using? I have a couple of 512Meg > Attache and > I am unable to change it to a Linux formatted device. It just throws > up lots > of device errors. The FAQ at the PNY web site says the device can > not be > partitioned. [snip] > That *is* odd... I have the Attache 1GB model, and as I mentioned, I > partitioned it fine at first, then deleted the partitions and > re-formatted in windows (bad), but now thanks to Lennart's advice, I was > able to create partitions again that work in Linux (using cfdisk). The > device errors sound a little scary. What are the messages? It is starting to look like the device doesn't work with a machine that only supports USB 1.0 from what I am seeing. My machine has a problem with it but another machine I have access to which uses a Pentium 4 seems to have little problem with it. The messages I get from the device when I try and use it in Linux are: Mar 1 14:53:31 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: Attached scsi removable disk sdb Mar 1 14:53:34 pc scsi.agent[2919]: disk at /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.2/usb1/1-1/1-1:1.0/host3/target3:0:0/3:0:0:0 Mar 1 14:53:38 pc fstab-sync[2968]: added mount point /media/USB1 for /dev/sdb1 Mar 1 14:53:39 pc kernel: SELinux: initialized (dev sdb1, type vfat), uses genfs_contexts Mar 1 14:58:41 pc kernel: usb 1-1: reset full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4 Mar 1 14:58:44 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:00 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:00 pc kernel: usb 1-1: reset full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4 Mar 1 14:59:03 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:18 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:18 pc kernel: usb 1-1: reset full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4 Mar 1 14:59:29 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device not accepting address 4, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:29 pc kernel: usb 1-1: reset full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: usb 1-1: device not accepting address 4, error -110 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: usb 1-1: USB disconnect, address 4 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: scsi: Device offlined - not ready after error recovery Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: SCSI error: return code = 0x10000 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 272 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 30 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: rejecting I/O to device being removed Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 31 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 32 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 33 Mar 1 14:59:39 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 34 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 35 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 36 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 37 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 38 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sdb1, logical block 39 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: lost page write due to I/O error on sdb1 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: rejecting I/O to device being removed Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: SCSI error: return code = 0x10000 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 512 Mar 1 14:59:40 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: rejecting I/O to device being removed -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 01:49:08 2006 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:49:08 -0500 Subject: http://www.explorerdestroyer.com/ In-Reply-To: <1146162175.5956.1.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1146162175.5956.1.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990604271849m4df3b8acte61c3a1538f94933@mail.gmail.com> > http://explorerdestroyer.com Awesome. I also bumped into http://www.killbillsbrowser.com via that site. It was a fun read. Of course, I hear there's a separate mailing list for ms-bashing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 04:12:14 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:12:14 -0400 Subject: USB stick partition problems In-Reply-To: <44515FFF.9080206-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <441C7EA5.3070707@interlog.com> <44515FFF.9080206@interlog.com> Message-ID: <20060428041214.GA8807@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 08:21:19PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote > It is starting to look like the device doesn't work with a machine that > only supports USB 1.0 from what I am seeing. My machine has a problem with > it but another machine I have access to which uses a Pentium 4 seems to > have little problem with it. > > The messages I get from the device when I try and use it in Linux are: > > Mar 1 14:53:31 pc kernel: sd 3:0:0:0: Attached scsi removable disk sdb > Mar 1 14:53:34 pc scsi.agent[2919]: disk at > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.2/usb1/1-1/1-1:1.0/host3/target3:0:0/3:0:0:0 > Mar 1 14:53:38 pc fstab-sync[2968]: added mount point /media/USB1 for > /dev/sdb1 > Mar 1 14:53:39 pc kernel: SELinux: initialized (dev sdb1, type vfat), uses > genfs_contexts > Mar 1 14:58:41 pc kernel: usb 1-1: reset full speed USB device using > uhci_hcd I have some devices that will not run, or are flakey, under uhci_hcd. I've had to rebuild my kernel with ohci_hcd in the kernel, and uhci_hcd as a module that does *NOT* autoload. I run ohci_hcd (USB 1.1) most of the time. For big backups to USB2-capable devices, I... modprobe uhci_hcd udevstart < do the backup or whatever > rmmod uhci_hcd udevstart I know that it looks ugly, but it works. I think the problem may be that USB 2 drivers won't work with USB 1.1 hardware. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 04:23:25 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:23:25 -0400 Subject: Questions about rsync In-Reply-To: References: <20060424032227.GA31705@waltdnes.org> <61e9e2b10604240640v3bab6fd3ncde406fe6767b463@mail.gmail.com> <20060426032221.GA4296@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060428042325.GB8807@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 03:45:46PM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote > My condolences .. I have run into the same challenge using the 'exclude' > argument with rsync. The logic behind it at the time was impenetrable -- all > I know is I got it to do what I wanted, albeit with a ridiculously long > command line. That's what include and exclude files are for. Here's "~/bin/sync1" #!/bin/bash if [ -a /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip ]; then rm /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip fi zip -9r /home/waltdnes/minmax.zip /home/waltdnes/spoolastra/* -i */.minmax rsync -av --delete --exclude-from=/home/waltdnes/.excludersync1 \ /home/waltdnes/ /mnt/bigdrive/waltdnes/ ...and here's "~/.excludersync1" spoolastra/slrnpull/news/ .mozilla/firefox/aaaaaaaa.default/Cache/ .mozilla/firefox/bbbbbbbb.trading/Cache/ According to what I've googled, you can get away with just one file. If you prefix lines will a "+" that expanded file pattern will be included, and lines prefixed with "-" will exclude files *REGARDLESS* of whether the list is invoked as "--exclude-from" or "include-from"!!! It is parsed in order, so you can do some cute stuff about what is included or excluded, i.e. you can have exceptions to exceptions, etc. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 06:19:42 2006 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:19:42 +0300 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427210204.GA21507@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Hi, Portmap is a Sun contribution to Unix, which in my opinion was unnecessary. The idea behind it was to minimize port usage. Unfortunately, only NIS and NFS use it. So, if you happen to be using any one of those services, you essentially use two ports instead of one. If you are running both of them, you would be using three ports. Ironically, this was the situation portmap was supposed to avoid. Portmap probably would have been beneficial if it was widely adopted. However, politics i.e, why do we need to use Sun's technology - ensured it remained irrelevant until the end of the world. William On 28/04/06, Peter wrote: > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > > > The machine is behind a firewall, which is why I wasn't too worried, but > > thank you. I am not using NFS, so the culprit is portmap. What does > > portmap do that I need? Why is it installed by default? > > Portmap is the 'mother' of all the rpc processes, i.e. nfsd, mountd, > statd etc. It coordinates them and the ports they use. Normal *nix > installations often use nfs and rpc (sort of rsh) and that's the rpc's > main function. If you do not use nfs turn it off in all runlevels or > from your admin tool. > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 15:28:04 2006 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: http://www.explorerdestroyer.com/ In-Reply-To: <1146162175.5956.1.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1146162175.5956.1.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > Get this tool for switching people from IE to Firefox. > For each person you switch, Google gives you $1, Microsoft loses > marketshare, and an angel gets its wings. > RickT That looks almost as annoying as pop-up ads. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 15:41:35 2006 From: dwarmstrong-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Daniel Armstrong) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:41:35 -0400 Subject: HAL's father Message-ID: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I heard *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got goosebumps! http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) -- Daniel W. Armstrong :: build-it-yourself biology http://biohackery.com :: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 16:00:57 2006 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:00:57 -0400 Subject: HAL's father In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44523C39.50108@utoronto.ca> Daniel Armstrong wrote: > I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer > synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I heard > *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got goosebumps! > > http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html > > "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) Great find that. Freakish isn't it? And perfect pitch too. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 16:31:04 2006 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:31:04 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux Message-ID: I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 17:26:58 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:26:58 +0000 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly special problems. It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been released recently... http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 17:35:56 2006 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:35:56 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux Message-ID: It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for AMD64/EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention anything else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64-bit technology but I will give it a try. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Browne Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly special problems. It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been released recently... http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 19:22:08 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:22:08 -0400 Subject: Open port In-Reply-To: <20060427210204.GA21507-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20060426154918.GA17634@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427171540.GA21145@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20060427210204.GA21507@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20060428192208.GA5287@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 05:02:04PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > The machine is behind a firewall, which is why I wasn't too worried, but > thank you. I am not using NFS, so the culprit is portmap. What does > portmap do that I need? Why is it installed by default? Portmap is used by remote procedure call stuff, such as nfs, fam, etc. /etc/rpc gives you an idea what things use portmap. I have portmap running bound to 127.0.0.1 so it doesn't listen to outside connections, but allows things that want it to still work locally. NFS is probably the most common user of portmap, but certainly not the only one. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 19:25:51 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:25:51 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060428192551.GB5287@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 12:31:04PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. > Woody did not support x86_64, and isn't supported at all anymore. Sarge (3.1) has unofficial support (although security does consider it supported) at amd64.debian.net, and etch will have full official support for it. Just look for the amd64 port of debian. Of course the i386 version runs fine on that machine, it just doesn't use any of the 64bit features. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 19:27:21 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:27:21 -0400 Subject: USB stick partition problems In-Reply-To: <20060428041214.GA8807-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <441C7EA5.3070707@interlog.com> <44515FFF.9080206@interlog.com> <20060428041214.GA8807@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20060428192721.GC5287@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 12:12:14AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > I have some devices that will not run, or are flakey, under uhci_hcd. > I've had to rebuild my kernel with ohci_hcd in the kernel, and uhci_hcd > as a module that does *NOT* autoload. I run ohci_hcd (USB 1.1) most of > the time. For big backups to USB2-capable devices, I... > > modprobe uhci_hcd > udevstart > < do the backup or whatever > > rmmod uhci_hcd > udevstart > > I know that it looks ugly, but it works. I think the problem may be > that USB 2 drivers won't work with USB 1.1 hardware. uhci and ohci are two different implementations of usb 1.x, ehci is the usb 2.x implementation that every fortunately agreed on. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 19:38:24 2006 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:38:24 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <090810EE-1910-401E-8865-B565245FBFD0@ca.afilias.info> On 28-Apr-06, at 13:35, Phillip Qin wrote: > It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for AMD64/ > EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention anything > else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64-bit > technology but I will give it a try. In a hacking environment, cool. But for production, if you don't _need_ 64 bit, why deal with the headaches? If you do need 64 bit, don't buy a Xeon to run it on. Drew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > Christopher Browne > Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux > > On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone > know whether > > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying > to order a > > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. > > Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? > > If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly > special problems. > > It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been > released recently... > > http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 19:53:29 2006 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:53:29 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux Message-ID: But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The port does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with AMD64 extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit userspace.". _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hammond Sent: April 28, 2006 3:38 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux On 28-Apr-06, at 13:35, Phillip Qin wrote: It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for AMD64/EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention anything else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64-bit technology but I will give it a try. In a hacking environment, cool. But for production, if you don't _need_ 64 bit, why deal with the headaches? If you do need 64 bit, don't buy a Xeon to run it on. Drew -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org ] On Behalf Of Christopher Browne Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin > wrote: > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly special problems. It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been released recently... http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 20:03:52 2006 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:03:52 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060428200352.GD5287@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 03:53:29PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The port > does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with AMD64 > extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit > userspace.". There is the sane option of not buying from a stupid supplier. :) Right now Dell very much qualifies as a very stupid supplier. You can just pretend they are xeons without em64t and run the i386 version on them. It runs just as it always has. The tests I have read about so far indicate that on averate an intel with em64t runs long mode (64bit) slightly slower than 32bit mode in general, and an Amd runs slightly faster in long mode than in 32bit mode. On a some very very pointer heavy code, both might be slightly slower, but that is very unusual code. On some fpu intensive code, both are likely faster in long mode since it uses sse rather than x87 instructions for floating point in long mode. It does very clearly show that Amd designed their chip for 64bit, while intel patched it on as an afterthought when it became necesary to compete. Of course I don't like proprietary hardware which doesn't have free drivers available, so whenever possible I avoid it. Dell has a long standing tradition of loving to ship the latest greatest proprietary hardware. I would NEVER buy a Dell system. Their monitors and TVs sure, but not their systems (or their printers for that matter). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 20:26:12 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:26:12 +0000 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The port > does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with AMD64 > extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit > userspace.". Well, then, that strikes me as an excellent reason to NOT buy servers from Dell. We stopped doing it a while back because they were severely underperforming. Here is a canonical example of the trouble with Dell: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-performance/2004-12/msg00164.php =---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Way off topic, but Dell regularly advertises included hardware that is "almost" the same as the name brand hardware if purchased individually. My brother bought a Dell and needed to upgrade his video driver and the Dell tech said he has to use Dell's drivers rather than the manufacturers driver because the video card isn't identical to the manufacturers. Of course the manufacturer had an updated driver that fixed the problem while Dell had only the broken one. He upgraded the driver anyway and it worked. Do you want to purchase hardware from a vendor that tries to shave every dollar off the hardware cost, even if compatibility or performance suffers? I don't. -- Bruce Momjian =---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 20:57:57 2006 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:57:57 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C66DD9A-8784-4045-8C2F-8B04955C5B6C@ca.afilias.info> HP sells a solid quad Opteron box, and if you don't require quad, the list grows from there. But, as I said before, if you don't _need_ 64 bit, why bother? Since you haven't said anything about what you plan to do with this box, it'd be silly to comment further. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org DBA, Afilias Canada Corp. Ltd. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A On 28-Apr-06, at 15:53, Phillip Qin wrote: > But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. > The port does say ?The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit > CPUs with AMD64 extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, > and a common 64bit userspace.?. > > > > > > > > > > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > Andrew Hammond > Sent: April 28, 2006 3:38 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux > > > > On 28-Apr-06, at 13:35, Phillip Qin wrote: >> It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for >> AMD64/EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention >> anything else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64- >> bit technology but I will give it a try. > > > In a hacking environment, cool. But for production, if you don't > _need_ 64 bit, why deal with the headaches? > > > > If you do need 64 bit, don't buy a Xeon to run it on. > > > > Drew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > Christopher Browne > Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux > > On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone > know whether > > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying > to order a > > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. > > Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? > > If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly > special problems. > > It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been > released recently... > > http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 21:21:55 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:21:55 -0400 Subject: I think some email addresses were added to this list in error In-Reply-To: <026501c66adf$0542c130$6501a8c0@CJ> References: <026501c66adf$0542c130$6501a8c0@CJ> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604281421na956e20pc4a5a8f3b4376b44@mail.gmail.com> On 4/28/06, Carl E. Jones, CFP wrote: > > I think some email addresses were added to this list in error. I have to admit, I wouldn't normally respond to something like this, but it does certainly seem an interesting (and potentially even effective) way to populate a list.... > If you do not > want to receive information about things related to magic and/or clowning, > please hit reply and I'll be glad to take you off the list. If you get > emails after you've asked to be removed it means one of several things: > > 1. I didn't get your request to remove you, so please send it again. > 2. You have more than one address on the list that needs to be removed, so > please let me know what other addresses you have. I'll be glad to remove > them. I don't send, or like to get, spam. > 3. Someone is forwarding my emails to you. I can't do anything about that. > Sorry.... > > I maintain a very strict "remove" policy. When asked to remove an address, I > do - immediately. That's nice, but to be perfectly honest, it looks alot like spam - albiet very well-formed spam. Were I not interested in humor, art, and magic (perhaps of completely different form) then I'd have been more than willing to add this address in my spam filters. May still do so - how many addresses were "accidentally" added, and more importantly... how did you get them? [I'm rather forthright about people's Rights (particularly online) and, quite frankly, not afraid take anyone on. Gimme a good reason to stay on the list. Alternatively, get ready - I'm undecided atm as to how to recieve your message.] > If you can't get an email through to me, just drop me a note at: > PO Box 146 > Euless, Texas, USA 76039 Very bizzare. Anyone other of these "new additions" recieving?? [PS - TLUG pls ignore - unless you know something I don't. ;-) ] Take care all. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 21:29:15 2006 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:29:15 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux Message-ID: It would be a replacement for my aging web server. _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hammond Sent: April 28, 2006 4:58 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux HP sells a solid quad Opteron box, and if you don't require quad, the list grows from there. But, as I said before, if you don't _need_ 64 bit, why bother? Since you haven't said anything about what you plan to do with this box, it'd be silly to comment further. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org DBA, Afilias Canada Corp. Ltd. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A On 28-Apr-06, at 15:53, Phillip Qin wrote: But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The port does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with AMD64 extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit userspace.". _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org ] On Behalf Of Andrew Hammond Sent: April 28, 2006 3:38 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux On 28-Apr-06, at 13:35, Phillip Qin wrote: It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for AMD64/EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention anything else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64-bit technology but I will give it a try. In a hacking environment, cool. But for production, if you don't _need_ 64 bit, why deal with the headaches? If you do need 64 bit, don't buy a Xeon to run it on. Drew -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [ mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Browne Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin < Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know whether > Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to order a > server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly special problems. It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been released recently... http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:21:40 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:21:40 -0400 Subject: HAL's father In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4452A384.80304@rogers.com> Daniel Armstrong wrote: > I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer > synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I heard > *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got goosebumps! > > http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html > > "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) So, I guess Hal's just a chip off the old block. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:26:34 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:26:34 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4452A4AA.4090408@lansystems.ca> Phillip Qin wrote: > But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The > port does say ?The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs > with /AMD64/ extension and all Intel CPUs with /EM64T/ extension, and > a common 64bit userspace.? > Hi Phillip, I get hardware from Dell nearly weekly, and I can confirm that they're still shipping standard Xeons. The Xeon MP is the processor with 64 bit capabilities. The Xeon MP is literally a clone of the AMD64 set. Intel duplicated the instruction set from AMD64, and it's 100% compatible, however, slower ;) Both generations of the Xeon will run standard 32 bit fine. If you want 64 bit, go with the opterons. Sun's X4100's are very sexy, however slightly limited in terms of disk space and raid options. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] *On Behalf Of > *Andrew Hammond > *Sent:* April 28, 2006 3:38 PM > *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Subject:* Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux > > On 28-Apr-06, at 13:35, Phillip Qin wrote: > >> It says "compilation time optimization uses a common base for >> AMD64/EM64T instead of legacy i386 cruft" but doesn't mention >> anything else about the EM64T. I am not familiar with the new 64-bit >> technology but I will give it a try. >> > In a hacking environment, cool. But for production, if you don't > _need_ 64 bit, why deal with the headaches? > > If you do need 64 bit, don't buy a Xeon to run it on. > > Drew > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Browne > Sent: April 28, 2006 1:27 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: EM64T and linux > > On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin > wrote: >> I know I shall post it to debian's user list. But does anyone know > whether >> Debian 3.0 woody supports Intel EM64T architecture? I am trying to > order a >> server. But Dell only ships Xeon with EM64T architecture. > > Do you want to run it as a 32 bit system? Or 64 bit? > > If you run in 32 bit mode, then it shouldn't present any particularly > special problems. > > It may be more interesting in 64 bit mode, as Debian/AMD-64 has been > released recently... > > http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/ > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > !DSPAM:4452508b61882855512685! > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:24:11 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:24:11 -0400 Subject: HAL's father In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4452A41B.1030706@rogers.com> Daniel Armstrong wrote: > I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer > synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I heard > *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got goosebumps! > > http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html > > "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) Perhaps that should be "Open the iPod bay doors HAL..." ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:33:48 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:33:48 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4452A65C.7000500@lansystems.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: > >> But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. The >> port >> does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with AMD64 >> extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit >> userspace.". > > Well, then, that strikes me as an excellent reason to NOT buy servers > from Dell. That's pretty black and white no? The 64 bit processors run 32 bit code fine. > > We stopped doing it a while back because they were severely > underperforming. I'd like to see "serverly" defined, as they're not that bad. > Here is a canonical example of the trouble with Dell: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-performance/2004-12/msg00164.php The posting blasts Dell's linux support. Who chooses a vendor based on support? You shouldn't be purchasing linux servers if you have no in house linux expertise. It then goes into saying that the Perc's perform poorly, which again is undefined. They aren't bad, especially compared to Mylex. The posting then chews Dell for video card support issues - I thought this was a server? I think that's a Postgres mailing list... can you say... moot? There is definite advantages to running Postgres on non Xeon hardware, however that article doesn't justify "not buying dell". That said, yes, Opterons rock. They'll blow a Xeon away - any day. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:31:37 2006 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:31:37 -0400 Subject: HAL's father In-Reply-To: <44523C39.50108-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> <44523C39.50108@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4452A5D9.7090103@rogers.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Daniel Armstrong wrote: >> I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer >> synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I heard >> *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got goosebumps! >> >> http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html >> >> "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) > > Great find that. Freakish isn't it? And perfect pitch too. I wonder if that would get Arthur C. Clarke in trouble with current IP laws? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 28 23:46:27 2006 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:46:27 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: <4452A65C.7000500-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4452A65C.7000500@lansystems.ca> Message-ID: <052217A9-0961-4563-944A-AA47183E8E11@visibleassets.com> On 28-Apr-06, at 7:33 PM, Vince Hillier wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > >> On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: >> >>> But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. >>> The port >>> does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs >>> with AMD64 >>> extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common >>> 64bit >>> userspace.". >> >> Well, then, that strikes me as an excellent reason to NOT buy >> servers from Dell. > > > That's pretty black and white no? The 64 bit processors run 32 bit > code fine. > >> >> We stopped doing it a while back because they were severely >> underperforming. > > I'd like to see "serverly" defined, as they're not that bad. Dell servers are what they are, they don't perform well for postgresql. This is a well known fact. The reason is because their disk I/O is very poor. Disk I/O affects all applications. For the same money you can get much better hardware. But it's your money Chris is giving you the benefit of the experience of a company that uses a lot of servers. You can choose to accept this charity or not... > >> Here is a canonical example of the trouble with Dell: >> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-performance/2004-12/msg00164.php > > The posting blasts Dell's linux support. Who chooses a vendor > based on support? You shouldn't be purchasing linux servers if you > have no in house linux expertise. It then goes into saying that > the Perc's perform poorly, which again is undefined. They aren't > bad, especially compared to Mylex. The posting then chews Dell for > video card support issues - I thought this was a server? I think > that's a Postgres mailing list... can you say... moot? > > There is definite advantages to running Postgres on non Xeon > hardware, however that article doesn't justify "not buying dell". > That said, yes, Opterons rock. They'll blow a Xeon away - any day. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 00:01:43 2006 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code Monkey In-Reply-To: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060429000143.94730.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I ran across the following after a reference to this on the Slashdot.org news website. A (slightly rude but very funny) song about life as a programmer: http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2006/04/14/thing-a-week-29-code-monkey/ Of note the song was released under a "Creative Commons" licence so please feel free to copy :-) . Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 00:21:39 2006 From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:21:39 -0400 Subject: HAL's father In-Reply-To: <4452A5D9.7090103-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <61e9e2b10604280841h48cb9cefs9ff97cab90e72cd6@mail.gmail.com> <44523C39.50108@utoronto.ca> <4452A5D9.7090103@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060428202139.32c53f33.gstrom@eol.ca> On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:31:37 -0400 James Knott wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > > Daniel Armstrong wrote: > >> I saw this linked over on Boing Boing - an mp3 sample of computer > >> synthesized speech produced at Bell Laboratories in 1961. When I > >> heard *what* song they programmed the computer to sing I got > >> goosebumps! > >> > >> http://musicyouwont.blogspot.com/2006/04/hals-father.html > >> > >> "Open the pod bay doors HAL..." :-) > > > > Great find that. Freakish isn't it? And perfect pitch too. > > I wonder if that would get Arthur C. Clarke in trouble with current > IP laws? -- It turns out that the link between the movie and the original recording is not an accident. I found this at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(film): "Hal's haunting version of the popular song "Daisy Daisy" (Daisy Bell) was inspired by a computer synthesized arrangement by Max Mathews, which Arthur C. Clarke had heard in 1962 at the Bell Laboratories Murray Hill facility when he was coincidentally visiting friend and colleague John Pierce. At that time, a remarkable speech synthesis demonstration was being performed by physicist John Larry Kelly, Jr who created one of the most famous moments in the history of Bell Labs by using an IBM 704 computer to synthesize speech. Kelly's voice recorder synthesizer vocoder recreated the song "Daisy Bell", with Max Mathews providing the musical accompaniment. Arthur C. Clarke was so impressed that he later told Kubrick to use it in the film." -- Glen Strom gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 02:43:13 2006 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 22:43:13 -0400 Subject: Anti-FUD From Redhat Message-ID: <200604282243.13265.jason@detachednetworks.ca> This put a smile on my face :) http://www.redhat.com/truthhappens/ -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca On-Site Computer Services - Available 24/7 Earn your service for FREE! Ask about our referral program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 04:42:42 2006 From: vince-WxfNDWQh5LNIo2TaICnI/Q at public.gmane.org (Vince Hillier) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 00:42:42 -0400 Subject: EM64T and linux In-Reply-To: <052217A9-0961-4563-944A-AA47183E8E11-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <4452A65C.7000500@lansystems.ca> <052217A9-0961-4563-944A-AA47183E8E11@visibleassets.com> Message-ID: <4452EEC2.5000507@lansystems.ca> Dave Cramer wrote: > > On 28-Apr-06, at 7:33 PM, Vince Hillier wrote: > >> Christopher Browne wrote: >> >>> On 4/28/06, Phillip Qin wrote: >>> >>>> But all the servers Dell offers use the EM64T. I have no choice. >>>> The port >>>> does say "The port consists of kernels for all AMD 64bit CPUs with >>>> AMD64 >>>> extension and all Intel CPUs with EM64T extension, and a common 64bit >>>> userspace.". >>> >>> >>> Well, then, that strikes me as an excellent reason to NOT buy >>> servers from Dell. >> >> >> >> That's pretty black and white no? The 64 bit processors run 32 bit >> code fine. >> >>> >>> We stopped doing it a while back because they were severely >>> underperforming. >> >> >> I'd like to see "serverly" defined, as they're not that bad. > > Dell servers are what they are, they don't perform well for > postgresql. This is a well known fact. The reason is because their > disk I/O is very poor. Disk I/O affects all applications. > > For the same money you can get much better hardware. But it's your > money Chris is giving you the benefit of the experience of a company > that uses a lot of servers. You can choose to accept this charity or > not... Phillip is looking for a web server, not a postgres server. I've yet to see a site that would degrade a dell due to I/O issues. Your frontends should be doing minimal seeking, if they aren't, you need a new system architect. Backends are a whole different discussion. Advice much appreciated... Charity? Move along... move along. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 16:09:55 2006 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:09:55 -0400 Subject: serial sustained speed (115kBauds) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060429120955.10c75481.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:16:19 +0300 (IDT) Peter wrote: > > Hi all, > > has anyone here got experience with sustained 115.2 kBauds on PCs > running Linux ? With 16550A compatible USARTs ? I would like to know > what to expect drop-wise. I.e. whether a normally loaded (<0.5) machine > can cope with sustained speed of such magnitude. Anyexperiences will be > welcome. Sustained means hours or days at this speed (f.ex. driving HDLC > synchronous link or similar). > > Peter Peter, I used to transfer information between my desktop (PII/350) and laptop (P233) using a serial cable. I used 115KB, and Zmodem as my transfer protocol. Usually, it worked. If my transfer failed, I simply tried again. This may not be good enough for you. I have not done this since I acquired a USB pen flash. I seem to recall reading the old Serial-HOWTO by Greg Hankins, and ignoring the more recent ones. This has been updated since, and the new version may be more helpful. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 16:15:20 2006 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 13:15:20 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Presenting at CEOS Message-ID: It seems that the submission process sounded too complex. Let me simplify things a bit: If you think you have something interesting that you'd like to talk about, send us a paragraph or two, by email, in plain text, by the end of next week (May 5). If you're interested in presenting but need more time to write your paragraph, send us an email and let us know. Unlike last year's CEOS, this year's CEOS will be directed toward the community. Registration fees will also reflect this fact (they will be 2-3 times cheaper than last year!!!). Presentations will be 15-20 minutes. We have two guest speakers: Mako Hill from MIT Media Lab and Alain Desilets from NRC, Ottawa. We will also have a number of tutorials. If you wish to organize a tutorial, let us know ASAP. Subscribe to the announcement list on the web site to stay updated. http://ceos.dal-acm.ca Spread the word to all interested parties! Cheers, Tony Abou-Assaleh CEOS Co-Chair -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 17:37:36 2006 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:37:36 -0700 Subject: Presenting at CEOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/29/06, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > It seems that the submission process sounded too complex. The only thing I regarded as a particular "complexity" in it is the set of logistics involved in being in Halifax on June 1/2. My spring is looking sufficiently complex already as to rule that out :-(. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html Oddly enough, this is completely standard behaviour for shells. This is a roundabout way of saying `don't use combined chains of `&&'s and `||'s unless you think G?del's theorem is for sissies'. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 19:25:18 2006 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:25:18 -0400 Subject: Presenting at CEOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0604291225x27773e8ds19e37f0c53c124f7@mail.gmail.com> On 4/29/06, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 4/29/06, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > It seems that the submission process sounded too complex. > > The only thing I regarded as a particular "complexity" in it is the > set of logistics involved in being in Halifax on June 1/2. My spring > is looking sufficiently complex already as to rule that out :-(. Same boat here. I nearly sent a request (and some info) in - then realized JIT that the conference was in Nova Scotia. I'd love to visit Eastern Canada, especially on OSS business. Maybe next year. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 29 19:29:37 2006 From: pavel-XHBUQMKE58M at public.gmane.org (Pavel Zaitsev) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:29:37 -0400 Subject: Code Monkey In-Reply-To: <20060429000143.94730.qmail-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20060429000143.94730.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1146338977.24873.0.camel@neo> ".. internets .." ??? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: ??? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????? URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 05:34:09 2006 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 01:34:09 -0400 Subject: USB stick partition problems In-Reply-To: <20060428192721.GC5287-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <441C7EA5.3070707@interlog.com> <44515FFF.9080206@interlog.com> <20060428041214.GA8807@waltdnes.org> <20060428192721.GC5287@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20060430053409.GB12208@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 03:27:21PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 12:12:14AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > > I have some devices that will not run, or are flakey, under uhci_hcd. > > I've had to rebuild my kernel with ohci_hcd in the kernel, and uhci_hcd > > as a module that does *NOT* autoload. I run ohci_hcd (USB 1.1) most of > > the time. For big backups to USB2-capable devices, I... > > > > modprobe uhci_hcd > > udevstart > > < do the backup or whatever > > > rmmod uhci_hcd > > udevstart > > > > I know that it looks ugly, but it works. I think the problem may be > > that USB 2 drivers won't work with USB 1.1 hardware. > > uhci and ohci are two different implementations of usb 1.x, ehci is the > usb 2.x implementation that every fortunately agreed on. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!! Mea culpa, mea culpa. My one mistake for 2006. I just went and did what I should've done before posting the previous message, and went to root, and ran "make menuconfig" to check... ohci_hcd is built into the kernel. ehci_hcd is built as a module, and is subject to "modprobe" and "rmmod". -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 06:08:37 2006 From: jasonspiro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Spiro) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:08:37 +0000 Subject: VNC fails to start In-Reply-To: <1146146791.4450cfe7ac26a-2RFepEojUI13G5Uu0KmH2CwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1146062400.444f8640aa728@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1146146184.20486.3.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <1146146791.4450cfe7ac26a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: On 4/27/06, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Thanks for the advice, but it turned out to be a misconfigured router; two > machines with the same IP...dumb. Hmmm... if I recall correctly, I once saw a Windows XP machine in my old school library show a strange balloon notification. it had the same IP as another machine, and it had automatically switched its IP to 169.254.something.somethingelse (which IIRC is in the unconfigured IP address space). Now you've made me curious about a few things: :-) 1. does Windows always notice all IP collisions, or only sometimes? 2. can the Linux networking stack automatically notice collisions too and pop up a dialog box notification via DBUS? 3. can cheap home routers bought at Future Shop notice statically-configured-machine IP address collisions as well and display a warning on the web interface's Status screen? Cheers, Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 12:25:40 2006 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:25:40 -0400 Subject: ZeroConf was VNC fails to start In-Reply-To: References: <1146062400.444f8640aa728@webmail.uoguelph.ca> <1146146184.20486.3.camel@venture.office.netdirect.ca> <1146146791.4450cfe7ac26a@webmail.uoguelph.ca> Message-ID: <4454ACC4.4080006@utoronto.ca> Jason Spiro wrote: > On 4/27/06, wattst-dxuVLtCph9gsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Thanks for the advice, but it turned out to be a misconfigured router; two >> machines with the same IP...dumb. > > Hmmm... if I recall correctly, I once saw a Windows XP machine in my > old school library show a strange balloon notification. it had the > same IP as another machine, and it had automatically switched its IP > to 169.254.something.somethingelse (which IIRC is in the unconfigured > IP address space). ZeroConf! It's an RFC. It's been out for a long time. Mac OS X has it, too. > > Now you've made me curious about a few things: :-) > > 1. does Windows always notice all IP collisions, or only sometimes? I think Windows has had it since Win95. Does it work? No idea. > > 2. can the Linux networking stack automatically notice collisions too > and pop up a dialog box notification via DBUS? There is a Debian package called zeroconf. I don't know if it logs collision corrections. > > 3. can cheap home routers bought at Future Shop notice > statically-configured-machine IP address collisions as well and > display a warning on the web interface's Status screen? I think this was the one sticking point preventing me from moving to ZeroConf. And since I had DHCP working, I didn't bother doing any further investigation. ZeroConf in a way, IIRC, was derived from ideas that created AppleTalk. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 13:15:03 2006 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:15:03 -0400 Subject: Linux audio (pt. 2) Message-ID: <5620D45E-D84B-11DA-BB1F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> This is a long-winded rant; feel free to ignore it. I don't expect any solutions to the various problems mentioned, but letting off a little steam and getting my thoughts organized may help my emotional state. :-) ====== The first time I ever installed Linux was ten years ago next month. I remember it as being an adventure, trying to find a kernel that had enough of the right drivers to support our hardware, odd boot configurations.... I'm very glad that for most purposes today I can boot a CD and, perhaps an hour later, have a configured system for development with databases, assorted servers, and a usable desktop. On the other hand, there's music. When I first bought my current system in February, I tried connecting a Tascam USB audio interface and discovered that the driver for it didn't actually work. While deciding which Linux distribution I wanted to run as my main OS, I tried the USB audio driver on each of them. It would typically load OK and then either crash configuration tools or simply not talk to the device. Even in the best cases, it might appear, but without any interface for selecting it. However, I was still intrigued by the feature list for the latest version of Rosegarden4, a package for combining audio and MIDI music tracks, editing notation, applying plug-in effects and more, so I came up with the idea that I could use the USB box under Windows XP (where it worked fine) to do audio recording and MIDI input, then reboot to Linux for mixing, production effects, and rendering. A bit annoying as workflow goes, but this is a hobby, not a profession. I installed some packages under SuSE 10, figuring out enough about ALSA, jackd, DSSI, and LADSPA to get them working with the motherboard sound card. Then came the big moment when I brought up Rosegarden4 and it told me it didn't like the 2.6.13 kernel supplied with the distribution because the timer resolution was too low. Sigh. Back when I was looking at various distributions, I'd heard of something called DeMuDi, a somewhat rare beast that was said to be customized for music applications. Ok, I have a spare partition; why not go for the software that's designed for this purpose? DistroWatch didn't seem to know anything about it, possibly because it is now being promoted as Agnula instead. Finally finding it, I started installing. My first hint that something might be wrong was when it failed to identify various bits of hardware that were correctly detected by the other eight-or-ten distributions I'd tried on this machine. The second hint was learning that all the versions of the music software in DeMuDi were both seriously out-of-date and mostly incompatible with each other in terms of dependencies. Third, it reported all kinds of errors during boot. Fourth, it detected my existing SuSE installation and wrote unusable entries for it into menu.lst, making it unbootable from that grub instance. (Now fixed.) After all that, DeMuDi surprised me by recognizing *both* of my sound interfaces. It then reverted to form by refusing to talk to *either* of them -- not even a beep, let alone playing a CD or MP3. (And even if it had worked, its version of Rosegarden4 was too old, and not upgradable without breaking too many other packages.) At the moment, the best option I can think of under Linux is to search for (or build) an alternate kernel for SuSE 10 that has better timer resolution. But I also think that insanity my lurk in that direction. Cakewalk's home edition of Sonar for XP, which appears to do everything Rosegarden4 promises, is a couple of hundred bucks and is looking cheaper all the time. (But I don't *like* Windows! And I need abcm2ps, which means I'd want to run Emacs on XP to edit those files...ick!) Mostly, over the past ten years, setting up Linux has become nice and boring, but for some applications, unfortunately, the spirit of adventure lives on. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 18:20:59 2006 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 30 Apr 2006 14:20:59 -0400 Subject: Linux audio (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <5620D45E-D84B-11DA-BB1F-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <5620D45E-D84B-11DA-BB1F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: phil writes: > This is a long-winded rant; feel free to ignore it. I don't expect any > solutions to the various problems mentioned, but letting off a little steam > and getting my thoughts organized may help my emotional state. :-) [snip] > I installed some packages under SuSE 10, figuring out enough about ALSA, > jackd, DSSI, and LADSPA to get them working with the motherboard sound card. > Then came the big moment when I brought up Rosegarden4 and it told me it > didn't like the 2.6.13 kernel supplied with the distribution because the > timer resolution was too low. Could the problem be as simple as needing this: dev.rtc.max-user-freq=1024 in /etc/sysctl.conf? This is described here: http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/rtc.html which is primarily oriented to a 2.4 kernel. With Debian Sarge on a 2.6 kernel, I've found that the "genrtc" module is loaded instead of "rtc" and, as a result, the above parameter doesn't exist. This: # modprobe -r genrtc # modprobe rtc will fix it temporarily. I've not looked into how to always load rtc (instead of genrtc) at boot. [snip] > At the moment, the best option I can think of under Linux is to search > for (or build) an alternate kernel for SuSE 10 that has better timer > resolution. I'd be surprised if that's required. I would look into what Rosegarden4's timer requirements are and how they're supported. Once you know that, you'll probably find it's not too difficult to make sure you have the appropriate modules loaded. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 20:33:00 2006 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:33:00 -0400 Subject: Linux audio (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: References: <5620D45E-D84B-11DA-BB1F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <842BE3F5-D888-11DA-A27B-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Apr 30, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Tim Writer wrote: > I would look into what Rosegarden4's > timer requirements are and how they're supported. According to the error message it pops up, the resolution is, "Please contact your Linux distributor for more information." There are a variety of discussions I've read, arguing about a 'correct' setting for the kernel timer (100, 250, 864, 1000, 2000), but none of them talk about it as a settable option. On this system, lsmod doesn't show either rtc or genrtc in its list and modprobe says "not found" for both. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 22:20:44 2006 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:20:44 -0400 Subject: The Stallman signature tax Message-ID: <4455383C.6080701@telly.org> "I decline to support the newly formed gratis autograph movement" - RMS http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/04/28/1648203 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 30 23:00:56 2006 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 30 Apr 2006 19:00:56 -0400 Subject: Linux audio (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <842BE3F5-D888-11DA-A27B-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <5620D45E-D84B-11DA-BB1F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <842BE3F5-D888-11DA-A27B-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: phil writes: > On Apr 30, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Tim Writer wrote: > > > I would look into what Rosegarden4's > > timer requirements are and how they're supported. > > According to the error message it pops up, the resolution is, "Please contact > your Linux distributor for more information." There are a variety of > discussions I've read, arguing about a 'correct' setting for the kernel timer > (100, 250, 864, 1000, 2000), but none of them talk about it as a settable > option. On this system, lsmod doesn't show either rtc or genrtc in its list > and modprobe says "not found" for both. Yes, they appear to be talking about the kernel HZ value which is a settable option in 2.6.13 and later. It should be straightforward to build a custom kernel with HZ=1000. I would use that as it was the previous default. I'm not familiar with building custom kernels for SUSE. On other RPM based distros, there's a kernel-source RPM which includes the kernel sources with any patches applied by the distro. In addition, there's usually a file in /boot which contains the configuration of the running kernel, something like /boot/config-2.6.13-1-686. With the kernel-source RPM installed, building a custom kernel with HZ=1000 should go _something like_ this: # cd /usr/src/linux # make mrproper # cp /boot/config-2.6.13-1-686 .config # vi .config Change value of kernel HZ variable (I'm unsure of the exact name) # make oldconfig # make dep # make # make modules # make modules_install # cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.13-1custom Actual paths and versions will be different for your system. If you're using an initial RAM disk (initrd), you will have to make a new one. Finally, modify your Grub or LILO config to boot your custom kernel. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml