Fwd: Re:Installfest thoughts

Tue Sep 13 01:26:13 UTC 2005

The following was written about the time the TLUG mail
list had it's problems, and so bounced.

Now, with the general meeting September 13th, I would
strongly suggest that candidates better than Edward
Chin be found for GTALUG (and no, NOT ME), as he seems
totally unable to grasp key points in the operation of
a not-for-profit group.

Colin McGregor

--- echin <edward.chin-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 1)	If I understand your concern correctly, you are
> worried about the liability 
> that Colin McGregor might incur.	
> My concern is that GTAlug and all the volunteers
> (including Colin McGregor) 
> are covered.	

If this is your concern (and I hope it is), then
please, please, please show it.

And while liability is a key concern, I am also
concerned about appearances, that we not look like a
bunch of stupid jerks.

> 2)	As an officer of GTAlug, it is my 
> responsibility to protect the interests of 
> GTAlug to the best of my ability.

Again, if this is your responsibility, then please,
please, please do it.

> 3)	The GTAlug Installfest Release Form was 
> prepared based on the form at 

>
http://ldp.rtin.bz/HOWTO/html_single/Installfest-HOWTO/

Again, none of the release forms on that website were
checked by an Ontario based lawyer. Both release forms
have potential problems in this province, both could
lead us into SERIOUS trouble.

> > which is part of The Linux Documentation Project.
> > 	
> > Added detail came from the Victoria Linux User
> Group
> > 
> >
>
http://distributions.linux.com/howtos/Installfest-HOWTO/legalprotection.shtml
> > 	
> > and the Kitchener-Waterloo Linux User Group
> > http://www.thinkers.org/kwlug/waiver.php

Ok, so did these people get it right? Did these people
take some other user group release form, fiddle with
it and trust that they Had everything covered? Was a
typo made between what their lawyer might have come up
with and getting it on to the website? I don't have an
answer to these questions.

I didn't even totally trust the lawyer I contacted,
with reason. When I got the first draft back from the
lawyer, I checked it as closely as a non-lawyer can
check things, and saw one trivial word that seemed out
of place, so I asked about it. Yes, even lawyers on
occasion can/do make typos. So again, it is a case of
check, double and triple check things. When it may be
your tail on the legal line, trust no one.

> 4)	It may be noted that the Seneca College 
> version, http://linux.senecac.on.ca/survey.html
> although brief, would probably suffice.

No, the Seneca release form makes NO effort to limit
liability in case someone gets physically hurt at
Seneca.

> 5)	To respond to the question of checking by a 
> local lawyer, I trusted KWLUG and Seneca College.(A 
> mistake, perhaps?)

Yes, a serious mistake.

> As to a review of the release/waiver, I posted a
> link on 10 Aug 05 to the 
> mailing list - well before 26 Aug 05.
> 	
> 6)	With regards to multiple release/waiver forms,
> the more; the better. Personally, I would like to 
> have every version, I could find, signed. Then there
> might be less likelihood that there could be a claim
> that all the release/waivers were not understood.

This is INSANE!!! If I went to an event and I was
asked to sign a dozen release forms all saying almost
the same thing I would:

- Assume I am dealing with a bunch of total
  incompetent idiots.
- Not sign anything then run (not walk) away.

I mean how hard is it to find a local lawyer who can
come write and/or check a release form so that we are
legally protected? The answer is, it isn't hard.

> 7)	Since the GTAlug Installfest Release Form was
> prepared and printed by 18 Aug 05(see mailing 
> list)well before Colin McGregor prepared his 26 Aug
> 05 version, it might imply that Mr. McGregor has
> less confidence in the GTAlug or any other version.

I don't trust ANY form that has NOT been checked by a
local lawyer. As the form Eddie came up with was not
checked by a local lawyer, I don't trust it, period.

> Also, there was NEVER any suggestion that Mr.
> McGregor nor any volunteer could not have their own
> personal waiver form.

Ok, so are you saying that each volunteer in the room
is supposed to have there own release form (in
addition to I assume one for the whole room)... The
mind boggles...

> NOR was there any suggestion that volunteers (we are
> all volunteers) could not take steps to indemnify 
> themselves.
> > To suggest that GTAlug or any of its members would
> > expose volunteers or anyone 
> > to liability is a very unworthy comment to make.
> > It is an insulting and libelous lie.

Look, Eddie, anybody can sue anybody else for ANY
reason, that is the law. I COULD legally sue you
because I thought your hair wasn't the right shade of
green. Any fair/sane court would laugh such a hair
colour lawsuit out of court instantly, and then you
could counter-sue for my causing such legal annoyance.
A counter suit over a past frivolous lawsuit would
almost certainly win (explains why the courts are not
clogged with suits over things like hair colour).

GTAlug by doing an installfest DOES expose the people
involved to liability, might not very much, but yes
there are liability issue. The small amount of
liability can be brought to effectively zero with a
PROPER release form, one checked by a local lawyer.

I said effectively zero in the above paragraph because
someone could still sign the form, have problems
then go to court saying something like "I was was
mentally incompetent when I signed the form, the
install fest people must have known this, and I should
be allowed to sue for $$$". A proper bank vault does
not stop ALL bad people and a proper release form will
not stop all legal issues, but proper precautions
reduces the chance of trouble to ALMOST nothing.

Technically speaking GTAlug does expose people people
to risk and liability on a regular basis (people could
get killed in traffic coming/going to meetings).
Likewise, volunteers could be sued for not doing
enough to promote GTAlug to blue haired, bankrupt,
blind, black lesbians (like I said about anyone can
sue for any reason). The only real question is how do
we reduce the risk and liability down to such a very
low level that it becomes basically a joke.

Colin McGregor

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml