From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 03:32:14 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:32:14 -0400 Subject: fast isp for data streaming server? In-Reply-To: <433DC00D.1020608-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <433DC00D.1020608@istop.com> Message-ID: Once again, I can highly recommend pair Networks .. they have high volume plans .. http://pair.com/services/high_volume/ that cover large traffic applications such as the ones I believe you're describing. Alex On 9/30/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > The subject might have been raised here many times. I am no so good in > it, though, thats why I am formulating the question in my own words. > > One of the companies I know is planning to provide a demo of their > application to other companies around the world. They have an > outstending product indeed. Their application will require as fast as > possible connection for streaming data between the server located > somewhere in the world and client software that will be located anywhere. > > I wonder what criteria should be considered in that case when looking > for an appropriate server hosting? Is it mauch a matter if each of them > has a very fast connection? I would guess that no. > > Or, perhaps, if they are going to make a presentation let say for client > in Toronto, perhaps the best choice would be an isp in Toronto hosting > the server? > > zb. > > > > -- > Zbigniew Koziol, SoftQuake^(tm) Open Source Business Solutions > Web Development, Linux, Web Mail Fax Voice Servers, Networking > Consultations, Innovative Technologies Tel/Fax: 1-416-530-2780 > Toronto, Canada, http://www.softquake.ca, info-lcEyp1+e+UdAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 08:12:25 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Remotely User Linux Server's Web Browser. How do I? In-Reply-To: <20050929202403.GE20109-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <433C2E9C.4080307@rogers.com> <20050929202403.GE20109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Two methods: > > Run Xvnc or one of the other vnc servers on linux, and forward the port > for vnc through putty's ssh link and use a vnc client and run mozilla on > the x server providing vnc on linux. > > Or install cygwin and it's x server, then startx on windows, and ask > putty to forward the X connection (simple and easy to do) and you can > just run X applications and they will display on your local x server. > > I would recomend option 2 in general, although option 1 you can > disconnect and come back to later without loosing your X session which > can be handy at times. Kind of like screen for X applications. I agree with Lennart and others and also recommend Cygwin over VNC for this sort of usage. I find it offers superior performance. Taking the Cygwin X Server to full screen (which it can be set to to on start up) makes using X in this environment very convenient IMHO. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 15:56:12 2005 From: skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Srinivasan Krishnan) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 11:56:12 -0400 Subject: Linux developer positions open in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> References: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> Message-ID: <1128182172.3086.7.camel@ambipapa> I was asked by a friend to post this. Please direct your enquiries, resumes etc. to tapovan-rieW9WUcm8FVaraqhrzeZA at public.gmane.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Location: Based in Ottawa, CANADA Duration: 11 months contract position. Rate: To be in USD $40/ hr No of Positions # Upto 20 openings Will hire off a phone interview A software designer with data services experience is required within the BCM Technology team. The candidate should have previous experience in the design and integration of data capabilities including: * IP datapath, bridging, VLAN, Diffserv * Routing stacks * Linux: NetFilter, queuing disciplines, tcp/udp stack, ip tables, sockets, scheduling, spin locks * Programming in C/C++ * IP routing protocols and MIB implementation * FR, ATM, PPP and Ethernet knowledge is an asset * Highly developed creativity in effectively applying new ideas from all sources in executing tasks and solving problems at hand Experience Required: The candidate will have a proven track record (2-4 years minimum) with references for the following skills: - Embedded Linux driver development (including development environment, debug tools and GNU tool chain) - U-boot experience with PowerQuick Processor - Structured programming (C, C++) with experience writing Detailed Design Documentation (FDs and DDs), Nortel Development processes would be an asset - Solid Telecom and Datacom experience (telephony and data interfaces and protocols) - Has worked in a close knit team environment. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 00:07:35 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:07:35 -0400 Subject: Hosting Provider Suggestions In-Reply-To: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> References: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> Message-ID: <433F24C7.1000607@georgetown.wehave.net> jeff-/qp0DKbAOldBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > I've been using 1and1 for a couple of years now and it's been reliable.. > They are pretty cheap too > > http://order.1and1.com/xml/order/ServerRoot > > $69 for a root server with either redhat 9, FC2, debian or suse Glad to hear you find them reliable. I've been with them for a few months and it's been rock solid. It's only hosting personal email for now so I'm not monitoring closely, must start doing that ... can't beat 1000GB/month for $49 or $69 (my case). The main reason I went with them was because they offered a web based reset and recovery system, I didn't see the other big providers offering a recovery system. I documented my setup so that I wouldn't forget how to do it: http://www.wehave.net/linux/custom1and1.html Fraser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 15:20:54 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 11:20:54 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument Message-ID: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like Bill's. http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 16:36:47 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 12:36:47 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <433FD45F.27469.B11AA2C@localhost> The article traces back to Fox News. I don't recall anyone ever accusing Fox News of high-integrity journalism. So, apparently, the State of Massachusetts, by choosing to embrace an open-source document format, is killing (Microsoft's) innovation and stifling (Microsoft's share in the control over) democracy. I am sure that M$ could write drivers that support the open document format, but I guess now the open format will make it possible for other vendors to enter the market with alternatives to MS Word. And that will truly hurt Microsoft's "innovation", among the other things it will hurt. It is a truly disgusting article, but if you just consider where it is coming from, you can just ignore them and go back to bed. These people are not journalists, but they play one on Fox News. The article reads pretty much like a Microsoft press release. James Prendergast, the author is in this piece, Seems to be nothing more than a stenographer for Microsoft. While it is an opinion piece, notice there is no balance from open source advocates provided by Fox. Pendergrast represents Americans For Technology Leadership, founded by Microsoft (I checked their website), Staples Business Depot, CompUSA, and a handful of citizens groups. (http://www.techleadership.org/about/) The article gives the impression of this being a piece from a "concerned grassroots citizen". But it is anything but that. > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of > the business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled > brats will be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a > lawyer...like Bill's. http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html > > RickT > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > __________ NOD32 1.1238 (20050930) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:00:52 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cheap or free HP workstations Message-ID: On Craig's List, someone is offering a pair of HP 712/80 workstations: http://toronto.craigslist.org/sys/100901843.html One is running Debian, the other HP-UX. The ad offers little description, but this seems to be a good overview: http://www.openpa.net/systems/712.html I sent mail to the advertiser -- that is my only connection to this deal. He said that if nobody wants them, they will be sent to the garbage. No monitors are included. The computer has VGA and PS/2 connectors. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:02:42 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:02:42 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the > business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will > be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like > Bill's. > http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html > > RickT "Jim Prendergast is executive director of Americans for Technology Leadership, a coalition of technology professionals, companies and organizations that supports limited government regulation of technology. An earlier version of this column failed to disclose that Microsoft Corporation is a founding member of ATL." From the column at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170724,00.html Convenient that. Is this James Prendergast the same E. James Prendergast that was a high up at DuPont and longtime employee of Motorola and AT&T? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:11:33 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > The article traces back to Fox News. I don't recall anyone ever > accusing Fox News of high-integrity journalism. Note that, to their credit, Fox did add this statement: Jim Prendergast is executive director of Americans for Technology Leadership, a coalition of technology professionals, companies and organizations that supports limited government regulation of technology. An earlier version of this column failed to disclose that Microsoft Corporation is a founding member of ATL. Other founding members include Staples, Inc., CompUSA and Citizens Against Government Waste. and posted a separate article about it: > So, apparently, the > State of Massachusetts, by choosing to embrace an open-source > document format, is killing (Microsoft's) innovation and stifling > (Microsoft's share in the control over) democracy. I am sure that M$ > could write drivers that support the open document format, but I > guess now the open format will make it possible for other vendors to > enter the market with alternatives to MS Word. And that will truly > hurt Microsoft's "innovation", among the other things it will hurt. > > It is a truly disgusting article, but if you just consider where it > is coming from, you can just ignore them and go back to bed. These > people are not journalists, but they play one on Fox News. The > article reads pretty much like a Microsoft press release. James > Prendergast, the author is in this piece, Seems to be nothing more > than a stenographer for Microsoft. While it is an opinion piece, > notice there is no balance from open source advocates provided by > Fox. Pendergrast represents Americans For Technology Leadership, > founded by Microsoft (I checked their website), Staples Business > Depot, CompUSA, and a handful of citizens groups. > (http://www.techleadership.org/about/) > > The article gives the impression of this being a piece from a > "concerned grassroots citizen". But it is anything but that. > >> Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a >> felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format >> which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for >> Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of >> the business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled >> brats will be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a >> lawyer...like Bill's. http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html >> >> RickT >> http://www.TorontoNUI.ca >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1238 (20050930) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================== Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:18:30 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:18:30 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <433FD45F.27469.B11AA2C@localhost> References: <433FD45F.27469.B11AA2C@localhost> Message-ID: <43401666.3080903@rogers.com> pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > The article traces back to Fox News. I don't recall anyone ever > accusing Fox News of high-integrity journalism. Well, at least they published a follow up. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170916,00.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:26:05 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:26:05 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510021026g48bad339l9592c80295f5c47f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/05, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the > business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will > be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like > Bill's. > http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html I haven't read the full article yet and I hardly an expert, but a particular line caught my eye. I've been following this Massachusetts story in papers and magazines for a little bit now... this line just doesn't seem to follow: "The policy promises to burden taxpayers with new costs and to disrupt how state agencies interact with citizens, businesses and organizations." The whole point of what Mass. is doing is to reduce those costs by using only open standards, isn't it? -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 17:58:20 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:58:20 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> I was skimming through the latest Tux magazine last night, and saw a reference to REALbasic. I used to use it under Windows, and was always happy with it, so I grabbed my copy and checked it out... Man have they ever grown. Now they're a multiplatform VB - and where I couldn't get Gambas running, REAL is. Apparently, standard edition is free for linux (I'm running in 6-mo demo mode, pending more info from their public forums) - in which case there might be all kinds of new linux desktop applications showing up RSN. http://www.realbasic.com/ Special note: Companies wanting to develop with a RAD might especially want to consider looking at this. The licensing fees for Pro Edition are about what you might expect. The cool part is that for < $1000 you can develop professionally for Linux, Mac, and (ug) Windows all at the same time. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 18:12:24 2005 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:12:24 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <200510021412.24264.glayng@sympatico.ca> At least Groklaw (among others) did do a nice, thorough debunking of the article. On October 2, 2005 11:20, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the > business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will > be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like > Bill's. > http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html > > RickT > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 18:15:09 2005 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:15:09 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510021026g48bad339l9592c80295f5c47f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <99a6c38f0510021026g48bad339l9592c80295f5c47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510021415.10143.glayng@sympatico.ca> Another point of what Mass. is trying to do is to assert their sovereignty over their own records, so that they're not beholden to one single supplier for ever and ever, amen. And that is what a certain convicted monopolist can neither fathom nor condone. On October 2, 2005 13:26, psema4 wrote: > On 10/2/05, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the > > business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will > > be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like > > Bill's. > > http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html > > I haven't read the full article yet and I hardly an expert, but a > particular line caught my eye. > > I've been following this Massachusetts story in papers and magazines > for a little bit now... this line just doesn't seem to follow: > > "The policy promises to burden taxpayers with new costs and to disrupt > how state agencies interact with citizens, businesses and > organizations." > > The whole point of what Mass. is doing is to reduce those costs by > using only open standards, isn't it? > > -- > - SGE > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 20:56:04 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:56:04 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> > Apparently, standard edition is free for linux (I'm running in 6-mo > demo mode, pending more info from their public forums) Selecting "demo" during installation is apparently the same as installing a Standard Edition key under linux. According to REAL Software, corrections to the captions used during the registration process are being made for the next release to clarify this somewhat. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jeff-/qp0DKbAOldBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 21:02:51 2005 From: jeff-/qp0DKbAOldBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Jeff Buan) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:02:51 -0400 Subject: Hosting Provider Suggestions In-Reply-To: <433F24C7.1000607-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <433F24C7.1000607@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <00a201c5c794$a6d23b50$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> > The main reason I went with them was because they offered > a web based reset and recovery system, I didn't see the > other big providers offering a recovery system. I'm pretty pleased with their recovery options, only problem I got is the time for which I recover my files back. The good thing is my employer also rents a dedicated server there and I could move files around for temporary backup so the speed transfer is very fast. > I documented my setup so that I wouldn't forget how to > do it: > http://www.wehave.net/linux/custom1and1.html Thanks for the write-up that's very detailed. I use the Plesk system, my clients seems to like it very much so I'm stuck with fedora 2 for the meantime. Jeff -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 22:49:39 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:49:39 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510021026g48bad339l9592c80295f5c47f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <99a6c38f0510021026g48bad339l9592c80295f5c47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43406403.2090302@georgetown.wehave.net> psema4 wrote: > I've been following this Massachusetts story in papers and magazines > for a little bit now... this line just doesn't seem to follow: > > "The policy promises to burden taxpayers with new costs and to disrupt > how state agencies interact with citizens, businesses and > organizations." There are costs in switching, some users will need retraining and if they start emailing around staroffice docs they will have issues with interoperability. Mind you I do agree that he is an idiot, he is focusing on short-term pain and ignoring the benefits (cost and otherwise). Fraser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 22:55:17 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:55:17 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <42A4BBAD.10002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <42A4BBAD.10002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43406555.5050602@georgetown.wehave.net> James Knott wrote: > Have any local stores picked this up yet? I don't recall seeing it on newstands. Thanks, Fraser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 23:14:02 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:14:02 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <43401666.3080903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <433FD45F.27469.B11AA2C@localhost> Message-ID: <4340317A.1789.C7D5A49@localhost> It is nice of them to do this, but I think if anyone at Fox bothered to perform a few clicks of their mouse on a web browser (like I did), they could have found this out for themselves on Day 1. > pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > The article traces back to Fox News. I don't recall anyone ever > > accusing Fox News of high-integrity journalism. > > Well, at least they published a follow up. > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170916,00.html > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 23:23:59 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:23:59 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects Message-ID: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Hi all, This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask anyway... "How do you promote a new OSS program?" As many of you know through my endless questions here I've been working on a program for over a year and a half. It's finally nearing the first major release and now I have time to turn my attentions to "Getting the word out". The problem is, I have no clue how to do that. It's on SourceForge and it's pretty high in it's "trove" (category) but that doesn't seem too helpful in and of itself (though the services provided by SourceForge are great!). I've got a forum up and running on the program's website and I am well into the process of writting a manual for the program. None of these though actually bring in potential users though (hopefully they will let people find credit in the program once they show up though). So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or work on one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let the community know it's out there? As always, thank you all very much! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 23:29:33 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:29:33 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <43406555.5050602-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <42A4BBAD.10002@rogers.com> <43406555.5050602@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <43406D5D.2010300@rogers.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> > > Have any local stores picked this up yet? I don't recall seeing it on > newstands. As far as I know, it's not a paper magazine. You have to download the PDF files. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 2 23:36:21 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Hi there, Just post an announcement to a couple _related_ mailing lists when you make a major release. If it's good and it's needed, people find it pretty soon. behdad On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" > > As many of you know through my endless questions here I've been > working on a program for over a year and a half. It's finally nearing > the first major release and now I have time to turn my attentions to > "Getting the word out". The problem is, I have no clue how to do that. > > It's on SourceForge and it's pretty high in it's "trove" (category) > but that doesn't seem too helpful in and of itself (though the services > provided by SourceForge are great!). I've got a forum up and running on > the program's website and I am well into the process of writting a > manual for the program. None of these though actually bring in potential > users though (hopefully they will let people find credit in the program > once they show up though). > > So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or > work on one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let > the community know it's out there? > > As always, thank you all very much! > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > --behdad http://behdad.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 00:41:20 2005 From: anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (Anthony Tekatch) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:41:20 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051002204120.22cb50f4@pino> On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:23:59 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or > work on one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let > the community know it's out there? I have put my projects on http://freshmeat.net/ , the scrolling news announcement is read by many. Also, if possible, try to make your app available for many distributions (RPM, Debian, Windows, etc), many people cannot be bothered to "use the source". Cheers, Anthony Tekatch http"//unihedron.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 00:41:34 2005 From: anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (Anthony Tekatch) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:41:34 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051002204134.7295654b@pino> On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:23:59 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or > work on one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let > the community know it's out there? I have put my projects on http://freshmeat.net/ , the scrolling news announcement is read by many. Also, if possible, try to make your app available for many distributions (RPM, Debian, Windows, etc), many people cannot be bothered to "use the source". Cheers, Anthony Tekatch http://unihedron.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 01:36:52 2005 From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Frank a.k.a. Erebus) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:36:52 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <43406D5D.2010300-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43406D5D.2010300@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> I went to visit the website, but unfortunately the "subscribe" feature is one I can't get to work (which is sad when it's free haha). Frank in Mississauga -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 02:00:30 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 22:00:30 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> Message-ID: <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> Frank a.k.a. Erebus wrote: > I went to visit the website, but unfortunately the "subscribe" feature is > one I can't get to work (which is sad when it's free haha). Why won't it work? I had no problem with it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 02:36:00 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051003023600.8873.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> The big issue here as I see it is that the state of Mass. has informed its software vendors that it plans to standardize on the OpenDocument file format and will only purchase software capable of doing this. M$ has declined the request and will not include "Open" or "Save As" OpenDocument format files in future version of Word. Why? Because they know better. The last time someone told me they did not have what I wanted I went somewhere else and Mass. will do the same, big deal. M$ is not trying to "quash" OpenDocument they just don't care what the customer wants, is this new for M$? I think not. groklaw has been following this story since the start, here's the latest one. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050929134232923 and there is a very good OGG of the last meeting which I viewed but can't find the link. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 02:39:37 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:39:37 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510021939ydb6911es94871adc8fa34eb8@mail.gmail.com> > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" To add to the list of suggestions, perhaps also consider writing an article on your software - what it does, a quick walkthrough on getting it up and running, etc. I've seen some references on writing articles*, but I'm still a few months away from needing to follow up on them. There are a couple authors on the list who might be able to add some thoughts on this as well. * Googling for "howto write articles" turns up a fair number of results. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 03:49:54 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 23:49:54 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <20051003023600.8873.qmail-YeifL7/2okOA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003023600.8873.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > groklaw has been following this story since the start, > here's the latest one. > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050929134232923 > > and there is a very good OGG of the last meeting which > I viewed but can't find the link. This would be the link to which you are referring: http://www.softwaregarden.com/cgi-bin/oss-sig/wiki.pl?OpenFormatMeetingSept2005 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 10:55:23 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:55:23 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <20051003023600.8873.qmail-YeifL7/2okOA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> > The big issue here as I see it is that the state of > Mass. has informed its software vendors that it plans > to standardize on the OpenDocument file format and > will only purchase software capable of doing this. > > M$ has declined the request and will not include > "Open" or "Save As" OpenDocument format files in > future version of Word. Why? Because they know better. I read this too, but I am not sure that they "don't care". If they are going to take the line of attack they are doing, it is because their lawyers told them not to support it, because it would weaken their attack of the technology. > > The last time someone told me they did not have what I > wanted I went somewhere else and Mass. will do the > same, big deal. M$ is not trying to "quash" > OpenDocument they just don't care what the customer > wants, is this new for M$? I think not. > I am quite sure that MS cares about the format and would not find it hard to write drivers for it. However, even if they did, that is not the issue in my view. The issue for MS is that an open document standard invites the possibility of competition from other vendors where none was possible before. An open standard is also something they can no longer "embrace and extend" as they had for all the other standards. This will hurt their bottom line, and lighten the iron grip they now have on the market. This is why MS wants to kill it. And, as your interesting article reference shows, even to the point of misrepresenting it ("close down" the OpenDocument standard for example). > groklaw has been following this story since the start, > here's the latest one. > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050929134232923 > > and there is a very good OGG of the last meeting which > I viewed but can't find the link. > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From csmillie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 12:55:30 2005 From: csmillie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin Smillie) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:55:30 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" I think Firefox probably has the best promotional model I've seen. One of its keys is that they promote to 2 different user markets, develoeers and users. Alot of OSS projects only focus on the developers. They've also done a great job of using buzz marketing techniques, tell a friend, community forums, firefox shirts/stickers etc.., online badges/buttons to promote FF on blogs/websites. Depending on what your product does I'd suggest you try all of these. Let your community promote your product. Seth Godin has written alot of books on buzz marketing techniques, his blog is available here: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/ If you can give me more details on your project I can provide some more specific approaches. Good luck, Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 12:43:48 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 08:43:48 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <434090BE.2080002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> If anyone wants copies, I have them lurking in my gmail account. They're kinda big, so you'll need to be able to handle big attachments. Let me know offlist if you want 'em. I'm not entirely impressed with it, I have to say. But then, I'm getting on for an O.F., so it's not meant for me. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 13:21:22 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:21:22 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <43412784.2070407-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <43413052.3090101@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > If anyone wants copies, I have them lurking in my gmail account. They're > kinda big, so you'll need to be able to handle big attachments. Let me > know offlist if you want 'em. > > I'm not entirely impressed with it, I have to say. But then, I'm getting > on for an O.F., so it's not meant for me. It is intended for beginners, but there is some info that's useful for more experienced users. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 13:23:12 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 06:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> References: <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> Message-ID: <20051003132313.62114.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:55:23 -0400, pking123 wrote: >it is because their lawyers told them not to support it, because it would weaken their attack of the technology. Exactally, I was looking at it from the view of an empowered user, which due to free software now exsist. One of the articles in the thread focuses on how M$ is at the same position that IBM was when M$ started. I've been waiting to see the first chinks in the armor of Bill the Great and Linux on its own would not be it. The US Antitrust should have been it but a big customer standing up and saying "your software is not good enough for us, we are choosing the alternative" IS! Expect to see a M$ head office response to this, the lawyers and "best minds in the business world" need a few days to brew the FUD... Should be here soon. http://news.google.com/news?q=microsoft Freedom and openness is a big, heavy sword and we heard the sound of it swinging last week. Get used to it! __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 13:39:27 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <20051003132313.62114.qmail-Ll7QUFR2QLiA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> <20051003132313.62114.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50669.207.188.67.74.1128346767.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> This is an interesting comment on Microsoft's strategy, in adding .pdf export capability: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26631 Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 14:00:57 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:00:57 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <43413052.3090101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> <43413052.3090101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43413999.4030200@telly.org> >It is intended for beginners, but there is some info that's useful for >more experienced users. > > Originally it *was* going to be a paper-based magazine. Then, as almost a last-minute change, the decision was made by the heads of Linux Journal (which publishes Tux) to go PDF-only (a well as do some other major changes, including how much writers got paid). I submitted an article to the "original" Tux and don't know if it showed up in the PDF version. I 've never seen it. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 14:29:07 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 03 Oct 2005 10:29:07 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Madison Kelly writes: > So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or work on > one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let the community > know it's out there? Some good ideas already (freshmeat, sourceforge, getting an article written). You could also set up a *-user and *-developer mailing list, create a website for the project (with or without sourceforge resources) with a roadmap and plans for future releases, etc.. Create packages. Not only for download but try to get it added to distros. Become the package maintainer for debian (that'll get it added quickly). Also, tell the guys running the linuxworld toronto show that you want to give a talk. And, lastly, don't expect to get the kind of attention that firefox or OOo gets. You may never get more than the occasional patch (or nothing) from the community. HTH, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 14:38:01 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:38:01 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43414249.8010006@telly.org> G. Matthew Rice wrote: >Create packages. Not only for download but try to get it added to distros. >Become the package maintainer for debian (that'll get it added quickly). > > Absolutely. Having RPM packages (at least those that will install on SuSE/Novell, Fedora/RedHat and Mandriva) will get them listed in rpmfind as well as into those distros' unofficial contrib areas. From there. if/once the project shows both relevance and maturity, it may just be included on their distributions which will get even more attention. Also. Don't forget to publicize your project in mailing lists or on blogs dealing with subject matter relevant to your project. Since you say it rates high within its category, are you sure that everyone with an interest in that category knows about it? And last but not least, post something on linuxpr.com. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 14:57:39 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:57:39 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4340D5DB.2350.EFF7829@localhost> Message-ID: <434146E3.1020705@rogers.com> pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: >I am quite sure that MS cares about the format and would not find it >hard to write drivers for it. However, even if they did, that is not >the issue in my view. The issue for MS is that an open document >standard invites the possibility of competition from other vendors >where none was possible before. An open standard is also something >they can no longer "embrace and extend" as they had for all the other >standards. This will hurt their bottom line, and lighten the iron >grip they now have on the market. This is why MS wants to kill it. >And, as your interesting article reference shows, even to the point >of misrepresenting it ("close down" the OpenDocument standard for >example). > > > I think this is the real point. Microsoft is trying to maximize the "migration-hassle-quotient". Microsoft knows that given a choice between a change that's good for them and what they are used to, users will choose what they know about 19 times out of 20. Historically speaking, this also worked against them when they were trying to unseat Lotus 123 and Wordperfect. In each case, Microsoft had a better product for about 2 - 4 years before market share numbers reflected it. Arguably, it took the resources of it's operating systems monopoly (proprietary hooks and other dirty tricks) to unseat the market leaders at the time. That's why I believe Linux and open source will win. But I also believe most users will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, towards more open and eventually better technologies. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 14:59:00 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 07:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43406C0F.3080309-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051003145900.39500.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Madison Kelly wrote: > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 > question" but I guess it > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" My project on sourceforge only appeals to a very limited audience and I usually promote it by handing out a business card I printed myself when I meet someone interested like at trade shows or when visiting clients. If you feel your's appeals to a wider audiance... Believe it or not but the commercial linux mags you see on the store shelves are always looking for articles. You could ask the editors for guide lines for story submission or send an outline of your plans for a story to the editor. Just don't expect to get paid, these guys are very stingy. On the bright side this also makes you a "Published Writer" which looks good on the old cv. Best of luck. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:09:13 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <434146E3.1020705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <434146E3.1020705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051003150913.59816.qmail@web51001.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul DiRezze wrote: > I think this is the real point. Microsoft is trying > to maximize the > "migration-hassle-quotient". FUD, FUD and all FUD. M$ is planning on killing the .doc format in favour of some form of encumbered XML in the next version of Word. Likely this new version of Word will require a new version of Windoze. It is also likely this new version of Windoze will require a new more powerful version of computer to run it on. Talk about a migration hassle??? And expensive!!! This is the opportunity free software has been looking for. They got a hot potato with this argument. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:07:39 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:07:39 -0400 Subject: Linux Cafe Message-ID: <4341493B.3040408@rogers.com> Anyone know what the URL for the Linux Cafe is? When I try www.linuxcafe.ca, all I get a page with the word "Test." on it. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:31:20 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:31:20 -0300 (ADT) Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <20051003145900.39500.qmail-YeifL7/2okOA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003145900.39500.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > --- Madison Kelly wrote: > > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 > > question" but I guess it > > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. It has a lot of tips and 'lessons' on how to run an OSS project. http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:41:57 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:41:57 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi there, > > Just post an announcement to a couple _related_ mailing lists > when you make a major release. If it's good and it's needed, > people find it pretty soon. > > behdad I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as spam. How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first release of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not potentially offend/anger users? Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:45:12 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:45:12 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <20051002204134.7295654b@pino> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <20051002204134.7295654b@pino> Message-ID: <43415208.40101@alteeve.com> Anthony Tekatch wrote: > On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:23:59 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or >>work on one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let >>the community know it's out there? > > > I have put my projects on http://freshmeat.net/ , the scrolling news > announcement is read by many. > > Also, if possible, try to make your app available for many distributions > (RPM, Debian, Windows, etc), many people cannot be bothered to "use the > source". > > > Cheers, > Anthony Tekatch > http://unihedron.com I've finished an installer specifically with the hopes of wrapping 'deb', 'rpm' and similar packages with it. Once I finish the manual and tieing up loose ends in the program found while testing the last step will be teaching myself how to package the program. Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 11:49:49 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:49:49 +0000 Subject: Linux Cafe In-Reply-To: <4341493B.3040408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4341493B.3040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200510031149.49814.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On October 3, 2005 03:07 pm, Paul DiRezze wrote: > Anyone know what the URL for the Linux Cafe is? > > When I try www.linuxcafe.ca, all I get a page with the word "Test." on it. > > paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml http://www.linuxcaffe.ca -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:47:23 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:47:23 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510021939ydb6911es94871adc8fa34eb8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <99a6c38f0510021939ydb6911es94871adc8fa34eb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4341528B.40004@alteeve.com> psema4 wrote: >> This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it >>doesn't hurt to ask anyway... >> >> "How do you promote a new OSS program?" > > > To add to the list of suggestions, perhaps also consider writing an > article on your software - what it does, a quick walkthrough on > getting it up and running, etc. > > I've seen some references on writing articles*, but I'm still a few > months away from needing to follow up on them. > > There are a couple authors on the list who might be able to add some > thoughts on this as well. > > > * Googling for "howto write articles" turns up a fair number of results. Authors, ideas? :) I think this would be a great idea. I've got some experience writting from when I used to teach at college and from a couple of presentations I've given to the TLUG group. I'll want to wait until after the first actual release though, I should suspect, so that I don't get interest and then lose people because I brought their attention to the program too soon. Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:51:59 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:51:59 +0000 Subject: Linux Cafe In-Reply-To: <4341493B.3040408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4341493B.3040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4341539F.3000301@cheapersafer.com> Paul DiRezze wrote: > Anyone know what the URL for the Linux Cafe is? > > When I try www.linuxcafe.ca, all I get a page with the word "Test." on > it. > http://www.linuxcaffe.ca - note the ff Linuxcafe.ca is somebody in Montreal with a sense of humour whois linuxcafe.ca... Tech-Mailbox: awesome-svuAfwFLUQneddfLkeSwRA at public.gmane.org NS1-Hostname: ns1.damnit.linuxcafe.ca NS2-Hostname: ns1.screwyou.linuxcafe.ca Linuxcaffe.ca and .com are working for now... Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:54:43 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:54:43 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43415145.4080801-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43415443.5040407@telly.org> Madison Kelly wrote: > I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as > spam. How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first > release of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not > potentially offend/anger users? Very often just putting something clear such as "new OSS project announcement" in the subject line will alert people to what you're sending. Those who aren't interested can delete without opening. Others know in advance what they're about to read. On the 'Net, it's hard to do many things without offending somebody. But don't let that stop you trying to get the word out; it's not like you're trying to sell them something... - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 15:52:11 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:52:11 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434153AB.4060705@alteeve.com> Colin Smillie wrote: > On 10/2/05, *Madison Kelly* > wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 question" but I guess it > doesn't hurt to ask anyway... > > "How do you promote a new OSS program?" > > > I think Firefox probably has the best promotional model I've seen. One > of its keys is that they promote to 2 different user markets, develoeers > and users. Alot of OSS projects only focus on the developers. > > They've also done a great job of using buzz marketing techniques, tell a > friend, community forums, firefox shirts/stickers etc.., online > badges/buttons to promote FF on blogs/websites. Depending on what your > product does I'd suggest you try all of these. Let your community > promote your product. Seth Godin has written alot of books on buzz > marketing techniques, his blog is available here: > > http://sethgodin.typepad.com/ > > If you can give me more details on your project I can provide some more > specific approaches. > > Good luck, > > Colin I should look into how much it would cost to print a dozen or two Tees for an upcoming TLUG meeting then? I could perhaps give them out with a CD of the program and a copy of the manual? How would you guys feel about that? Would it be invasive to the meeting (given that it's not directly related to TLUG)? It might be moot if it's too expensive. What ather items? Would you guys rather get Tees or perhaps mugs or something? Or do you guys think that is tacky and wouldn't help get the word out in any effective way anyway? I read the Seth Godin blog, it seems really interesting. When I get home tonight I'll read into the archives. Do you know of any other "marketting gurus" that I should look at? I am always warry of "marketers" because of so many bad decisions that they seem to make (1,000,000,000bytes = Gigabyte?!?!) but I also figure there are some real gems like this Seth guys seems to be. Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:01:10 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:01:10 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434155C6.9020808@alteeve.com> G. Matthew Rice wrote: > Madison Kelly writes: > >>So to those of you who have your own semi-popular OSS program (or work on >>one), how did you do it? How long did it take? How do you let the community >>know it's out there? > > > Some good ideas already (freshmeat, sourceforge, getting an article written). > > You could also set up a *-user and *-developer mailing list, create a website > for the project (with or without sourceforge resources) with a roadmap and > plans for future releases, etc.. > > Create packages. Not only for download but try to get it added to distros. > Become the package maintainer for debian (that'll get it added quickly). > > Also, tell the guys running the linuxworld toronto show that you want to give > a talk. > > And, lastly, don't expect to get the kind of attention that firefox or OOo > gets. You may never get more than the occasional patch (or nothing) from the > community. > > HTH, It does, thank you! My worry about approaching distributors at this point is that my code is still young. I suspect there will be bugs and I don't want to risk my one chance to get into a distro like Debian (which would be a dream!). How do you think a distributor like Debian or Redhat would take to a new program that is admittedly young and still 'beta'? If they rejected it, do you think that would effect approaching them again in the future with a more mature version? I've developed it partially of Fedora and partially (lately) on Debian so I am pretty confident of it's stability on those platforms. I've built a web page and decided to use a Bulletin Board-style Forum you see a lot these days (already setup and running). Do you guys, as coders, think you might use a forum like that or do you think many developers are wed to traditional mailing lists like this? I am wondering if it might be worth setting up a mailing list along side the forum or if that would be spreading people too thin at this stage... I am hoping that my program (a web-based backup program) will have a certain amount of wide appeal but I have /no/ illusions of grandeur like that. Firefox, OpenOffice, Perl, Apache and such are where they are because of tremendously stable code and years of being smart behind them. My program is quite tiny be comparison but I still hope to make a mark in my niche. :) Madison PS - Is there generally a fee to present at the Linux shows? Maybe a booth wouldn't be a bad idea... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:05:46 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:05:46 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43414249.8010006-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43414249.8010006@telly.org> Message-ID: <434156DA.10002@alteeve.com> > And last but not least, post something on linuxpr.com. > > - Evan I'll look at that site now, thank you very much! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:10:10 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:10:10 +0000 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43415145.4080801-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434157E2.5060108@cheapersafer.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > > I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as > spam. How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first > release of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not > potentially offend/anger users? > Well, putting an URL and a key phrase in a .sig is almost always acceptable - and so is introducing stuff via a question, like, "I'm working on this program that raises the dead and I wondered if anyone knows a good place to sell used coffins?". I'd say as long as you don't post too often and the package has some relationship to the list topic you should be OK or if you ask for input etc. I agree with others that an article is a good way to do it as well. If you put a short, say 2 or 3 paragraphs, article up on a personal blog and then get a friend to submit it to the Newsvac section of Newsforge that can generate some hits right away and then you can sell a longer version of the article to places like Newsforge etc. I put some links and info on markets for software related articles at http://www.cheapersafer.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/WritingInfo Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:08:38 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:08:38 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: References: <20051003145900.39500.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43415786.8080509@alteeve.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >>--- Madison Kelly wrote: >> >>> This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 >>>question" but I guess it >>>doesn't hurt to ask anyway... >>> >>> "How do you promote a new OSS program?" > > > Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. It has a lot of > tips and 'lessons' on how to run an OSS project. > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ > > Cheers, > > TAA I read that some time ago but I think it might mean more to me now so I will, thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:07:56 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:07:56 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <20051003145900.39500.qmail-YeifL7/2okOA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003145900.39500.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4341575C.4070305@alteeve.com> B B wrote: > --- Madison Kelly wrote: > >> This is probably the proverbial "$64,000 >>question" but I guess it >>doesn't hurt to ask anyway... >> >> "How do you promote a new OSS program?" > > > My project on sourceforge only appeals to a very > limited audience and I usually promote it by handing > out a business card I printed myself when I meet > someone interested like at trade shows or when > visiting clients. > > If you feel your's appeals to a wider audiance... > Believe it or not but the commercial linux mags you > see on the store shelves are always looking for > articles. You could ask the editors for guide lines > for story submission or send an outline of your plans > for a story to the editor. Just don't expect to get > paid, these guys are very stingy. On the bright side > this also makes you a "Published Writer" which looks > good on the old cv. > > Best of luck. I wouldn't worry about being paid, I'd just like to have some exposure. Once I tie up the loose and finish the docs (a manual) and get at least an RPM and DEB package going I will send off some proposals. Any suggestions on which magazines I should approach first? Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:12:14 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:12:14 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43415443.5040407-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> <43415443.5040407@telly.org> Message-ID: <4341585E.2030606@alteeve.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as >> spam. How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first >> release of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not >> potentially offend/anger users? > > > > Very often just putting something clear such as "new OSS project > announcement" in the subject line will alert people to what you're > sending. Those who aren't interested can delete without opening. Others > know in advance what they're about to read. > > On the 'Net, it's hard to do many things without offending somebody. But > don't let that stop you trying to get the word out; it's not like you're > trying to sell them something... > > - Evan Perhaps prepending the subject with 'OT: New OSS Program' might help, too. Well, I'll hold off announcing it until it's out of 'release candidate' stage (another month?). I want to at least have a finished cake before I invite people to take a bite. :p Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:14:13 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:14:13 -0400 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <434157E2.5060108-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> <434157E2.5060108@cheapersafer.com> Message-ID: <434158D5.8090409@alteeve.com> Rob Sutherland wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> >> I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as >> spam. How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first >> release of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not >> potentially offend/anger users? >> > Well, putting an URL and a key phrase in a .sig is almost always > acceptable - and so is > introducing stuff via a question, like, "I'm working on this program > that raises the dead > and I wondered if anyone knows a good place to sell used coffins?". I'd > say as long as > you don't post too often and the package has some relationship to the > list topic you should be > OK or if you ask for input etc. > > I agree with others that an article is a good way to do it as well. If > you put a short, say 2 or 3 paragraphs, > article up on a personal blog and then get a friend to submit it to the > Newsvac section of Newsforge > that can generate some hits right away and then you can sell a longer > version of the article to > places like Newsforge etc. I put some links and info on markets for > software related articles > at http://www.cheapersafer.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/WritingInfo > > Rob Thanks for the link with the list. Do you think those magazines that pay might be more or less inclined to print an article if I waive the fee they normally pay people? At this point I am looking for exposure more than income. :) Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:21:07 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:21:07 -0400 Subject: Debian upgrade issue Message-ID: <20051003162107.GA7773@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> When I run a dist-upgrade on my Debian testing system, I notice the following: The following packages have been kept back: x-window-system-core 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded. I've done some looking, but I cannot seem to find out why this package has been kept back, or what to do about it. It is a meta-package, which complicates the issue, and I'm pretty sure that this isn't significant, it's just wonky and bugs me. Does anyone have a suggestion about how I can upgrade this package? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:32:58 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:32:58 +0000 Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <434158D5.8090409-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> <434157E2.5060108@cheapersafer.com> <434158D5.8090409@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43415D3A.6090303@cheapersafer.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Rob Sutherland wrote: > >> Madison Kelly wrote: >> >> > > Thanks for the link with the list. Do you think those magazines that > pay might be more or less inclined to print an article if I waive the > fee they normally pay people? At this point I am looking for exposure > more than income. :) > No, I don't think that would make a difference - they seem to decide more on whether the topic's hot and whether they've covered it recently than on cost. Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 16:33:02 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:33:02 -0400 Subject: Debian upgrade issue In-Reply-To: <20051003162107.GA7773-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003162107.GA7773@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <43415D3E.10500@alteeve.com> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > When I run a dist-upgrade on my Debian testing system, I notice the > following: > > The following packages have been kept back: > x-window-system-core > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded. > > I've done some looking, but I cannot seem to find out why this package > has been kept back, or what to do about it. It is a meta-package, which > complicates the issue, and I'm pretty sure that this isn't significant, > it's just wonky and bugs me. Does anyone have a suggestion about how I > can upgrade this package? Thanks. I believe this is the package for (or related to) the x.org server which replaces the XFree86 server that is the default for Debian. If you are willing to test out find a repository with the 'xorg' package (or is it 'xorg-server'?). Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:09:01 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:09:01 -0400 Subject: Debian upgrade issue In-Reply-To: <43415D3E.10500-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003162107.GA7773@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43415D3E.10500@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051003170901.GA8365@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 12:33:02PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: >William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >>When I run a dist-upgrade on my Debian testing system, I notice the >>following: >> >>The following packages have been kept back: >> x-window-system-core >>0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded. >> >>I've done some looking, but I cannot seem to find out why this package >>has been kept back, or what to do about it. It is a meta-package, which >>complicates the issue, and I'm pretty sure that this isn't significant, >>it's just wonky and bugs me. Does anyone have a suggestion about how I >>can upgrade this package? Thanks. > >I believe this is the package for (or related to) the x.org server which >replaces the XFree86 server that is the default for Debian. If you are >willing to test out find a repository with the 'xorg' package (or is it >'xorg-server'?). Yes, the problem occurred when an upgrade migrated me from XFree86 to x.org (which I am using) I think that all of that dependencies are met, but I am unsure, and I'm having trouble locating a report on why this package is being held back on my system. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:13:28 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:13:28 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 02, 2005 at 04:56:04PM -0400, psema4 wrote: > > Apparently, standard edition is free for linux (I'm running in 6-mo > > demo mode, pending more info from their public forums) > > Selecting "demo" during installation is apparently the same as > installing a Standard Edition key under linux. > > According to REAL Software, corrections to the captions used during > the registration process are being made for the next release to > clarify this somewhat. Hmm, in my experience the majority of software developed using VB is of a quality such that the world would have been better off had it never been written. Why not just use python or something with wxwindows if you want cross platform. Or use libsdl and gcc/g++ and you can write code that runs on either without too much extra overhead. >From what I have seen most of these tools make crappy hard to maintain code and are only a time saver for getting a proof of concept demo out the door, but should not be used for a full application development. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:22:08 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:22:08 -0400 Subject: Debian upgrade issue In-Reply-To: <20051003162107.GA7773-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003162107.GA7773@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051003172208.GB7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 12:21:07PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > When I run a dist-upgrade on my Debian testing system, I notice the > following: > > The following packages have been kept back: > x-window-system-core > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded. > > I've done some looking, but I cannot seem to find out why this package > has been kept back, or what to do about it. It is a meta-package, which > complicates the issue, and I'm pretty sure that this isn't significant, > it's just wonky and bugs me. Does anyone have a suggestion about how I > can upgrade this package? Thanks. To find out why try just doing: apt-get install x-window-system-core and it will tell you what the problem is, or it will tell you it has to remove x and install y to update the package. This happens sometimes when a major change happsn that it isn't sure it should perform automatically (such as xfree86 to x.org transition). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:25:15 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:25:15 -0400 Subject: Linux developer positions open in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <1128182172.3086.7.camel@ambipapa> References: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> <1128182172.3086.7.camel@ambipapa> Message-ID: <20051003172515.GC7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 11:56:12AM -0400, Srinivasan Krishnan wrote: > I was asked by a friend to post this. Please direct your enquiries, > resumes etc. to tapovan-rieW9WUcm8FVaraqhrzeZA at public.gmane.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Location: Based in Ottawa, CANADA > Duration: 11 months contract position. > Rate: To be in USD $40/ hr > No of Positions # Upto 20 openings > Will hire off a phone interview > > > > A software designer with data services experience is required within the > BCM Technology team. The candidate should have previous experience in > the design and integration of data capabilities including: > * IP datapath, bridging, VLAN, Diffserv > * Routing stacks > * Linux: NetFilter, queuing disciplines, tcp/udp stack, ip tables, > sockets, scheduling, spin locks > * Programming in C/C++ > * IP routing protocols and MIB implementation > * FR, ATM, PPP and Ethernet knowledge is an asset > * Highly developed creativity in effectively applying new ideas from all > sources in executing tasks and solving problems at hand > > Experience Required: > > The candidate will have a proven track record (2-4 years minimum) with > references for the following skills: > > - Embedded Linux driver development (including development environment, > debug tools and GNU tool chain) > - U-boot experience with PowerQuick Processor > - Structured programming (C, C++) with experience writing Detailed > Design Documentation (FDs and DDs), Nortel Development processes would > be an asset > - Solid Telecom and Datacom experience (telephony and data interfaces > and protocols) > - Has worked in a close knit team environment. Hmm, so is Nortel finally getting around to replacing the NT/Jave system of the BCM with Linux? Odd, I thought I remember a couple of years ago they were talking about doing that, I thought it would have been done already. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 18:15:27 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A question for those running their own OSS projects In-Reply-To: <43415145.4080801-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43406C0F.3080309@alteeve.com> <43415145.4080801@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <50136.207.188.67.74.1128363327.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Just put 'Announce:' and then the subject. Or if it's commercial' 'Commercial:'. If you do this and only do it once, I have found that there are no complaints. People who are offended by commercial announcements can then just delete without reading the message. Peter > Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> Just post an announcement to a couple _related_ mailing lists >> when you make a major release. If it's good and it's needed, >> people find it pretty soon. >> >> behdad > > I've been thinking of that but I always worry it will come off as spam. > How would you suggest approaching a message to annouce the first release > of a new program on a list like, say, this one and not potentially > offend/anger users? > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 18:22:48 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:22:48 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown Message-ID: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> This announcement is going out to the ruby and linux groups, because I am an admin on their wikis. Wikis all over the world are being subjected to a very widespread distributed and automated wiki spam attack. http://www.google.ca/search?client=foo&q=wikitikitavi What does this mean to you? Some pages may appear blank until I clean them up. Anonymous editing will be removed entirely, and will never come back. Ever. FINALLY, after all these years.. wikis are being forced to grow up. In response, I will be locking things down and will begin assembling some brains so as to generate more permanent solutions. In the mean time, there are several very simple solutions I will put in place. What's foolish is that this attack amounts to absolutely nothing. Search engine ranking isn't influenced one little bit by any of this. This spamming is simply a childish annoyance. The spam deposited is:
[[http://WTHP1.coolhost.biz] [WTHPD1]] [http://WTHP2.coolhost.biz WTHPD2] [[http://WTHP3.coolhost.biz | WTHPD3]] [http://WTHP4.coolhost.biz | WTHPD4] [WTHPD5 | http://WTHP5.coolhost.biz] [[http://WTHP6.coolhost.biz WTHPD6]]
-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 19:45:40 2005 From: zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:45:40 -0500 Subject: Linux Cafe In-Reply-To: <4341539F.3000301-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw@public.gmane.org> References: <4341493B.3040408@rogers.com> <4341539F.3000301@cheapersafer.com> Message-ID: <43418A64.8080200@zee4.com> Rob Sutherland wrote: > Paul DiRezze wrote: > >> Anyone know what the URL for the Linux Cafe is? >> >> When I try www.linuxcafe.ca, all I get a page with the word "Test." >> on it. >> > http://www.linuxcaffe.ca - note the ff Cool, right in my neighbourhood (or close anyways) :) Zoltan -- www.YYZTech.ca Toronto talks tech. www.Dine.TO Toronto's premier restaurant search engine. Get Thunderbird -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 20:38:45 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:38:45 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <20051003171328.GA7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> > Hmm, in my experience the majority of software developed using VB is of > a quality such that the world would have been better off had it never > been written. I'd agree for the most part. I've always hated VB. The value I see in it though, is the same value that made RAD tools so popular. The ability to quickly create featureful linux desktop applications is important for bringing increasing numbers of people to the linux desktop, and offers, I think, some serious potential for innovative startups. I am certain the resultant executables will not be as good as if they'd been done with gcc, but for the most part, the average home user couldn't really care less about how it was built. In addition to the standard GUI and database components, it includes components for building games, internet applications, etc. The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a good thing for the desktop. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 21:02:04 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:02:04 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051003210204.GD7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 04:38:45PM -0400, psema4 wrote: > I'd agree for the most part. I've always hated VB. The value I see > in it though, is the same value that made RAD tools so popular. > > The ability to quickly create featureful linux desktop applications is > important for bringing increasing numbers of people to the linux > desktop, and offers, I think, some serious potential for innovative > startups. I have seen some amazingly nice programs written in python (which I have never gotten around to learning myself) using some of the handy libraries it has, and it can make graphical useful applications with much less effort than you would think. I doubt the commercial RAD tool would do better. Using one of the RAD tools tends to just tie you into a proprietary runtime and leaves you with code that is often not portable to anything else should you decide you need to continue development. I don't think this is at all the kind of thing Linux (or Windows for that matter) needs. > I am certain the resultant executables will not be as good as if > they'd been done with gcc, but for the most part, the average home > user couldn't really care less about how it was built. Well you can make crap with gcc too, it just takes more effort than most people are willing to put into it. > In addition to the standard GUI and database components, it includes > components for building games, internet applications, etc. Tools to let non programmers think they can write programs are not that useful in my opinion because they don't make people good programers. > The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid > code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a good > thing for the desktop. Because desktop users expect crappy applications? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 22:03:25 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:03:25 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <20051003210204.GD7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> <20051003210204.GD7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4341AAAD.8000600@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 04:38:45PM -0400, psema4 wrote: > > >>In addition to the standard GUI and database components, it includes >>components for building games, internet applications, etc. >> >> > >Tools to let non programmers think they can write programs are not that >useful in my opinion because they don't make people good programers. > > I don't think this is the point of VB or RB (both of which I've used). Often it's about speeding up (macro-izing) some operation or mocking up a prototype or writing a one-screen wizard that will never be distributed. Sometimes a crappy program done quickly is exactly what's needed. IMO that's what these environments are best for. But I'd have to agree that now that Python and its ilk exist and are mature, proprietary dev environments are more trouble than they are worth. What VB and RB can do is easily done. What they can't do is often near impossible or at least not worth the square peg in the round hole type of effort required. >>The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid >>code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a good >>thing for the desktop. >> >> > >Because desktop users expect crappy applications? > > No, but often any application (even a crappy one) is better than no application. For a good number of years VB was all there was that lessened the effort required to get a problem solved without bugging IT people at your company. Having also struggled with Open Office Basic, I can say that the integration of VBA into MS Office is still by far the best development environment in an office suite that I have used. Having said all that, I'm still moving to Linux, Open Office and Python because I want what I learn today to be useful 5+ years from now. MS keeps changing the rules every 2-3 years to a degree that's excessively counter-productive, not to mention costly. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 22:08:36 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:08:36 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <20051003210204.GD7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> <20051003210204.GD7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510031508o7572b8d0k711b454c54e61eae@mail.gmail.com> > I have seen some amazingly nice programs written in python (which I have > never gotten around to learning myself) using some of the handy > libraries it has, and it can make graphical useful applications with > much less effort than you would think. I doubt the commercial RAD tool > would do better. Using one of the RAD tools tends to just tie you into > a proprietary runtime and leaves you with code that is often not > portable to anything else should you decide you need to continue > development. Python's one of the main reason's I'm heading over to Seneca's OSS Symposium this month. It'll be nice to finally take a look at it. I don't know about the runtime situation - at first glance, it looks like it's producing static executables, but will have to spend some time and get a better idea of how "bad" the output is. > I don't think this is at all the kind of thing Linux (or Windows for > that matter) needs. Whether any OS needs it or not, the tool's exist. Either programmers can make them useful, or non-programmers will. :S > > I am certain the resultant executables will not be as good as if > > they'd been done with gcc, but for the most part, the average home > > user couldn't really care less about how it was built. > > Well you can make crap with gcc too, it just takes more effort than most > people are willing to put into it. Lmao. > > In addition to the standard GUI and database components, it includes > > components for building games, internet applications, etc. > > Tools to let non programmers think they can write programs are not that > useful in my opinion because they don't make people good programers. Agreed, though there's nothing but education and experience to make a good programmer. Programming concepts are mostly not specific to any tool or language though. > > The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid > > code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a good > > thing for the desktop. > > Because desktop users expect crappy applications? Not really. Because after hearing about linux often enough they'll take a look. The more similarities that exist between desktop applications (on linux, mac, 'doze) the easier it will be for them to migrate from one OS to another. If I could count the number of times I've had "average" home users look at linux, only to watch them fall back to windows because app-x doesn't work anything like it does on windows... -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 22:44:41 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:44:41 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux Message-ID: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> This was an old thread, but I found it VERY interesting ATI is currently hiring (at head office in Markam) mutliple people to work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca) nice to hear! I assume with hired guns in shop, ATI can no longer (for long) have unofficial linux support. hopefully soon they will have fully supported linux drivers. -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 22:56:47 2005 From: troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tro) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:56:47 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> On Monday October 3 2005 14:22, Sy Ali wrote: > Wikis all over the world are being subjected to a very widespread > distributed and automated wiki spam attack. ... > Anonymous editing will be removed entirely, and will never > come back. Ever. > > FINALLY, after all these years.. wikis are being forced to grow up. > Sy, we had the same problem at http://gentoo-wiki.com/ recently, but we contained it with http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SpamBlacklist_extension . Take a look. I think locking down the wiki will destroy its usefullness, but it's up to you, I guess. Cheers, Dmitri -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 23:04:57 2005 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:04:57 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <20051003132313.62114.qmail-Ll7QUFR2QLiA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003132313.62114.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510031904.57986.glayng@sympatico.ca> The M$ head office response has already started. As they can't put their name on the FUD directly, they've called out the usual suspects, in this case James Prendergast, executive director of Americans for Technology Leadership, a political pressure group that includes as its founders (surprise, surprise), Microsoft. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170724,00.html Fox News got such a hit from this article that they were forced to add this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170916,00.html Of course the problem that M$ has with this is: 1) In order to keep their monopoly on the desktop, they need to keep everyone on a proprietary format, which means keeping their office suite from reading and saving files in the OpenDocument format; 2) In order to sell to Massachusetts, they need to allow their office suite to read and save files in the OpenDocument format. Of course these are irreconcilables, which is why M$ is currently in a high state of panic. On October 3, 2005 09:23, B B wrote: > On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:55:23 -0400, pking123 wrote: > >it is because their lawyers told them not to support > > it, because it would weaken their attack of the > technology. > > Exactally, I was looking at it from the view of an > empowered user, which due to free software now exsist. > One of the articles in the thread focuses on how M$ is > at the same position that IBM was when M$ started. > > I've been waiting to see the first chinks in the armor > of Bill the Great and Linux on its own would not be > it. The US Antitrust should have been it but a big > customer standing up and saying "your software is not > good enough for us, we are choosing the alternative" > IS! > > Expect to see a M$ head office response to this, the > lawyers and "best minds in the business world" need a > few days to brew the FUD... Should be here soon. > http://news.google.com/news?q=microsoft > > Freedom and openness is a big, heavy sword and we > heard the sound of it swinging last week. Get used to it! > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stevenwoon-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 23:23:07 2005 From: stevenwoon-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Steven Woon) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 19:23:07 -0400 Subject: Expedia.ca is not friendly to Firefox/Linux Message-ID: <1128381788.4626.11.camel@sw_laptop1.semfosys.com> Message says it all - expedia.ca is not friendly to Firefox/Linux, at least for now (hopefully). -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: support-6E0zOJYHXTszCDX4PKsTzLDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org To: stevenwoon-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: 4105:Expedia.ca, Other questions, comments, or feedback - Case ID: [REQ:21773310] Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:01:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Dear Steven Woon: Thank you for contacting Expedia.ca regarding your difficulty with our website. Please be assured that this difficulty is only a temporary problem. Expedia.ca has been compatible with all browsers and platforms in the past, however, Expedia.ca is currently compatible only with browsers operating on Microsoft Windows platforms as a result of our last site update. Our technical department is aware of this issue, and is currently reviewing the situation. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, and expect that the website should be functioning on all platforms shortly. Please feel free to contact us at 1-888-EXPEDIA (1-888-397-3342) if you have any further questions. Our Customer Support Representatives are available to assist you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Thank you for choosing Expedia.ca! Customer Support Team Expedia.ca Now were getting somewhere! -----Original Message----- From: Sent: 10/3/2005 8:23:34 AM To: support-6E0zOJYHXTszCDX4PKsTzLDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org Subject: 4105:Expedia.ca, Other questions, comments, or feedback - Case ID: [REQ:21773310] * TPID: 4 * Name: Steven Woon * TUID: Guest * E-mail Address: stevenwoon-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org * Phone Numbers: +1 (905) 7440446 * Itinerary Number: * Subject: 4105:Expedia.ca, Other questions, comments, or feedback -------------------------------- * Comment: Your website doesn't work well with Firefox 1.02 on Fedora 4 Linux. Looks like it doesn't support the standards (foraml) HTML standard, but the prioprietary extensions own by Microsoft. Finally decided to purchase my air ticket from Toronto, Canada to <..snip..> through travelociy.ca. I like your site but cannot use it because it probably only works with MS Windows. I do not use Microsoft products in my company. Best regards, Steven Woon Thornhill, Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 22:09:17 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:09:17 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <43413052.3090101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> <43413052.3090101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4341AC0D.201@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > > It is intended for beginners, but there is some info that's useful for > more experienced users. It's not so much the content, James, it's more the presentation. TUX's use of PDF is exceptionally poor; not merely is each issue twice the file size it needs to be, but it's not really doing anything that couldn't be done equally well with static web content. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 00:16:45 2005 From: anthony-e6QRBlwUI3iaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (Anthony Tekatch) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:16:45 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <4341AC0D.201-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> <43413052.3090101@rogers.com> <4341AC0D.201@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051003201645.56706f24@pino> On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:09:17 -0400, "Stewart C. Russell" wrote: > It's not so much the content, James, it's more the presentation. TUX's > use of PDF is exceptionally poor; not merely is each issue twice the > file size it needs to be, but it's not really doing anything that > couldn't be done equally well with static web content. Right, the content is rather 'beginnerish', but I find the format of wide aspect ratio and full-screen-opening is much easier to read than a 8.5"x11" PDF viewed on a standard landscape monitor. When reading standard 8.5"x11" PDF files, I usually waste many key-clicks resizing and panning the image just to read the whole article. TUX is one of the very few that actually got this viewability right. Most web pages are not formatted for easy computer viewing, having to scroll or page-down just to see a few more sentences at the bottom is just not user friendly. I guess it's time I invested in a scroll-wheel mouse :) My $0.02 worth, Anthony Tekatch http://unihedron.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 00:53:38 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 05:53:38 +0500 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <200510031856.48310.troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > Sy, we had the same problem at http://gentoo-wiki.com/ recently, but we > contained it with http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SpamBlacklist_extension . I know of the extension and I'll check it out. Unfortunately it appears to be 1.4-only so it won't apply to my own personal wiki, but at the very least it should be applied to the various 1.4 wikis that I know of. > Take a look. I think locking down the wiki will destroy its usefullness, but > it's up to you, I guess. I'd tend to agree.. except that I have never seen open collaboration done by anonymous users.. their contributions tend to be towards spelling and link corrections. =/ Thanks for the tip.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:09:50 2005 From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Frank a.k.a. Erebus) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:09:50 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <20051003201645.56706f24@pino> References: <20051003201645.56706f24@pino> Message-ID: <20051004011031.684D712133B@acheron.ss.org> Turns out that I couldn't use FireFox to start a subscription, but could do it in IE. Good news is that now I can use FireFox to download back issues. Frank -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:31:22 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:31:22 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <20051004011031.684D712133B-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051004011031.684D712133B@acheron.ss.org> Message-ID: <4341DB6A.2020108@rogers.com> Frank a.k.a. Erebus wrote: > Turns out that I couldn't use FireFox to start a subscription, but could do > it in IE. Good news is that now I can use FireFox to download back issues. I had no problem using Mozilla. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:32:18 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:32:18 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <4341AC0D.201-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003013729.A55C31215AF@acheron.ss.org> <434090BE.2080002@rogers.com> <43412784.2070407@sympatico.ca> <43413052.3090101@rogers.com> <4341AC0D.201@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4341DBA2.1040102@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> >> It is intended for beginners, but there is some info that's useful for >> more experienced users. > > It's not so much the content, James, it's more the presentation. TUX's > use of PDF is exceptionally poor; not merely is each issue twice the > file size it needs to be, but it's not really doing anything that > couldn't be done equally well with static web content. I find that PDF package to be very nice to read, unlike so many other documents, web sites etc. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:38:53 2005 From: troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tro) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:38:53 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> On Monday October 3 2005 20:53, Sy Ali wrote: > On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > I know of the extension and I'll check it out. Unfortunately it > appears to be 1.4-only so it won't apply to my own personal wiki, but > at the very least it should be applied to the various 1.4 wikis that I > know of. Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. Cheers, Dmitri -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:49:05 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:49:05 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <200510032138.53561.troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4341DF91.1030907@istop.com> > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. Wikis will never work fine. Never ever. These things are too complex. They have too many security holes. They have them because the must have them. It follows from how they are developed and used. Oh, I see, someone cries now. I dont know why. I knew that they are too complex and unsecure for years. Didnt I write that they are not secure? ;) I prefer rather write my own application. At least I know where the possible problems are. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 02:04:32 2005 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:04:32 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <4341DF91.1030907-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <4341DF91.1030907@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051003220432.74830158.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:49:05 -0400 Zbigniew Koziol got an infinite number of monkeys to type out: > > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. > > Wikis will never work fine. Never ever. I've heard that somewhere before, but about something else... Oh yeah, the horseless carriage, telephones, wireless, the Internet, etc. You get right to work on that new application of yours to replace Wikis. The world needs you :-) -- JoeHill / RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 02:12:45 2005 From: chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org (Chris Friedt) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:12:45 -0400 Subject: m3u support for gnomebaker Message-ID: This wasn't a huge deal, but I had a chance to improve some existing code in gnomebaker (http://gnomebaker.sourceforge.net). My patch simply allows the user to include m3u files as potential files. Looks like my few lines of code will make it onto 0.5.0 . Also blogged about it (http://www.perpetual-notion.myftp.org/blog/?p=58). Incidentally, does anyone want to sell an oscilloscope :) I just thought you guys (n' gals) might laugh at the part about Billly ;-) heheheee... ps: When is our next meeting?? I have zero concept of time/day/year... actually, I thought today was still a day in one of my past lives as a penguin ;-) ~/Chris ______________________________ Christopher Friedt Ryerson University Computing & Communication Services (416) 979-5000 x6831 chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 02:33:32 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <20051004011031.684D712133B-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051004011031.684D712133B@acheron.ss.org> Message-ID: <200510032233.32589.mervc@eol.ca> On Monday 03 October 2005 21:09, Frank a.k.a. Erebus wrote: > Turns out that I couldn't use FireFox to start a subscription, but could > do it in IE. Good news is that now I can use FireFox to download back > issues. > > Frank And I have had no problems using Konqueror, since day 1. Incidentally, I subscribed and paid my approx $50, but it was returned promptly when the decision not to print was made. I have a suspicion that they didn't get enough paid subscriptions to make it worth while. And the sister magazine probably has a lot of articles available. The biggest complaint seems to be its' KDE' orientation that gets explained each month. I always find 'new to me stuff' so I enjoy it. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Kubuntu Linux KDE v. 3.4.2 Desktop Kontact v. 1.1.2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 02:36:13 2005 From: troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tro) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:36:13 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <20051003220432.74830158.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <4341DF91.1030907@istop.com> <20051003220432.74830158.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200510032236.13552.troworld@gmail.com> On Monday October 3 2005 22:04, JoeHill wrote: > On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:49:05 -0400 > > Zbigniew Koziol got an infinite number of monkeys to type out: > > > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. > > > > Wikis will never work fine. Never ever. > > I've heard that somewhere before, but about something else... > > Oh yeah, the horseless carriage, telephones, wireless, the Internet, etc. > > You get right to work on that new application of yours to replace Wikis. > The world needs you :-) And here I was trying not to feed the troll. :) Dmitri -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 02:45:34 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:45:34 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <200510031904.57986.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003132313.62114.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4341B48E.22296.179DA5@localhost> > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170724,00.html > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170916,00.html > The points you bring up regarding the above links was covered earlier in this thread. There was also a fascinating article from Groklaw earlier in this thread if you are following this stuff, complete with a purportedly unedited OGG file depicting the 2-hour meeting between representatives from Microsoft and the Government of Massachusetts regarding civil rights, OpenDocument and Microsoft's XML format. While it is 2 hours long, after hearing the first hour, it seemed to be a pretty lively discussion (how can you lose, with topics like that?). Points are brought up revealing (to me at least) MS's plans to abandon the ".doc" format. At this point, I would like to say as an asside: an extension like ".doc", like ".txt", appears to be vendor- neutral, yet it is hard to *not* identify the ".doc" extension with MS Word. I imagine, unless someone can say that I am mistaken, that they would keep the ".doc" extension as "hot property", and change the file format. In contrast, StarOffice had to settle for a crummy ".sxw" extension (I know it was their choice, but we can see that vendors are now running out of recognisable 3-letter extensions). I can't see Microsoft going that way. > Of course the problem that M$ has with this is: > 1) In order to keep their monopoly on the desktop, they need to keep > everyone on a proprietary format, which means keeping their office > suite from reading and saving files in the OpenDocument format; 2) In > order to sell to Massachusetts, they need to allow their office suite > to read and save files in the OpenDocument format. > > Of course these are irreconcilables, which is why M$ is currently in a > high state of panic. > > On October 3, 2005 09:23, B B wrote: > > On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:55:23 -0400, pking123 wrote: > > >it is because their lawyers told them not to support > > > > it, because it would weaken their attack of the > > technology. > > > > Exactally, I was looking at it from the view of an > > empowered user, which due to free software now exsist. > > One of the articles in the thread focuses on how M$ is > > at the same position that IBM was when M$ started. > > > > I've been waiting to see the first chinks in the armor > > of Bill the Great and Linux on its own would not be > > it. The US Antitrust should have been it but a big > > customer standing up and saying "your software is not > > good enough for us, we are choosing the alternative" > > IS! > > > > Expect to see a M$ head office response to this, the > > lawyers and "best minds in the business world" need a > > few days to brew the FUD... Should be here soon. > > http://news.google.com/news?q=microsoft > > > > Freedom and openness is a big, heavy sword and we > > heard the sound of it swinging last week. Get used to it! > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > > to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > there's no place like 127.0.0.1 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > __________ NOD32 1.1240 (20051003) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 03:05:47 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:05:47 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <200510032233.32589.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051004011031.684D712133B@acheron.ss.org> <200510032233.32589.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4341F18B.6010102@rogers.com> Merv Curley wrote: > On Monday 03 October 2005 21:09, Frank a.k.a. Erebus wrote: >> Turns out that I couldn't use FireFox to start a subscription, but could >>do it in IE. Good news is that now I can use FireFox to download back >>issues. >> >>Frank > > And I have had no problems using Konqueror, since day 1. > > Incidentally, I subscribed and paid my approx $50, but it was returned > promptly when the decision not to print was made. I have a suspicion that > they didn't get enough paid subscriptions to make it worth while. And the > sister magazine probably has a lot of articles available. > > The biggest complaint seems to be its' KDE' orientation that gets explained > each month. I always find 'new to me stuff' so I enjoy it. Now, if only they'd do something about that "Margo Parfait". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 03:05:49 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:05:49 +0500 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <200510032138.53561.troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > On Monday October 3 2005 20:53, Sy Ali wrote: > > On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > > I know of the extension and I'll check it out. Unfortunately it > > appears to be 1.4-only so it won't apply to my own personal wiki, but > > at the very least it should be applied to the various 1.4 wikis that I > > know of. > > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. Ok.. I played around with it. Is there some special kind of chicken I should sacrifice to make pages editable at all after installing it? My various spam blacklists are all empty/renamed and when this extension is installed.. editing any page just gives a totally blank result when attempting a save. Did you do anything special to get it working for gentoo's wiki? For now I'm completely locking down my own wiki. My own solution will be to allow anonymous access to talk pages only (via some hackery), and I will additionally look into this sort of protection on top of that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 03:11:38 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:11:38 +0500 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <4341DF91.1030907-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510031856.48310.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510031753k40deb26dq271ea97d70756a65@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <4341DF91.1030907@istop.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990510032011p29ed7047s82f7748bf94a9d79@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. > > Wikis will never work fine. Never ever. > > These things are too complex. They have too many security holes. They > have them because the must have them. It follows from how they are > developed and used. > > Oh, I see, someone cries now. I dont know why. I knew that they are too > complex and unsecure for years. Didnt I write that they are not secure? ;) > > I prefer rather write my own application. At least I know where the > possible problems are. Wikis are fundamentally flawed, indeed. Developers are two steps behind spamming techniques. Administrators are overwhelmed at dealing with problems.. the list of issues goes on. Please do write your own, then come back with some respect for the wikis that can tout that a slashdotting is barely noticible. A Real wiki is most certainly not a weekend project, but I'll be the first to admit that most wiki developers all have very comfortable blinders on. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 03:26:14 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 23:26:14 -0400 Subject: MythTV Presentation Message-ID: Hello Everyone. Thanks to all who came out to IBM for last week's NewTLUG meeting on building a PVR. I had a great time presenting, and you were all a fantastic audience. By popular request, I've made my presentation slides available via the following URL: http://www.mora.ca/newtlug/mythtvtalk.pdf Enjoy! pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 04:02:23 2005 From: troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tro) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 00:02:23 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510040002.24450.troworld@gmail.com> On Monday October 3 2005 23:05, Sy Ali wrote: > On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > > Works fine on Gentoo Wiki, which is 1.5. > > Ok.. I played around with it. Is there some special kind of chicken I > should sacrifice to make pages editable at all after installing it? > My various spam blacklists are all empty/renamed and when this > extension is installed.. editing any page just gives a totally blank > result when attempting a save. I wasn't the one installing, so I can't help you, sorry. It shouldn't give a blank result. It simply runs a regex against an entire edit. If it matches a bad url, it will show a "this change was blocked" page; otherwise, it doesn't interfere. I do remember that the predefined wikipedia/mediawiki blacklist that's supposed to be used by default caused problems and had to be disabled. Dmitri -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 12:57:54 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:57:54 -0400 Subject: Expedia.ca is not friendly to Firefox/Linux In-Reply-To: <1128381788.4626.11.camel@sw_laptop1.semfosys.com> References: <1128381788.4626.11.camel@sw_laptop1.semfosys.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/05, Steven Woon wrote: > Message says it all - expedia.ca is not friendly to Firefox/Linux, at > least for now (hopefully). Expedia was a Microsoft project that spun off. I'm not surprised that it's IE only! I had a dog of a time convincing the Canadian Blood Service's webmaster that Firefox/Opera/Konqueror are "important." I don't know if my annoying e-mails contributed at all but the site now loads in FF. -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 13:13:39 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:13:39 +0500 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <200510040002.24450.troworld-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502@mail.gmail.com> <200510040002.24450.troworld@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990510040613w6353fab4y287ad17daf298a96@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > On Monday October 3 2005 23:05, Sy Ali wrote: > > Ok.. I played around with it. Is there some special kind of chicken I > > should sacrifice to make pages editable at all after installing it? > > My various spam blacklists are all empty/renamed and when this > > extension is installed.. editing any page just gives a totally blank > > result when attempting a save. > > I wasn't the one installing, so I can't help you, sorry. It shouldn't give a > blank result. It simply runs a regex against an entire edit. If it matches a > bad url, it will show a "this change was blocked" page; otherwise, it doesn't > interfere. > > I do remember that the predefined wikipedia/mediawiki blacklist that's > supposed to be used by default caused problems and had to be disabled. Curiously, I was _only_ able to get the wikimedia blacklist to work. I'll revisit it at a later point. Unfortunately this won't solve the present problem, since it seems to be engineered to only deface and not actually change pageranking or the like. And of course something as important as a spam filter isn't natively supported by the wiki.. and of course it wouldn't actually work as advertised either.. I can only use one single blacklist. =/ Well.. I'll revisit things later.. and hopefully I can get chongqed's list to work, and also use the database page to work. Bleh. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 13:16:09 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:16:09 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument References: <20051003132313.62114.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> <4341B48E.22296.179DA5@localhost> Message-ID: <001101c5c8e5$db101f20$6501a8c0@ibm5b4y3a0pgrq> M$ did not win the City of Munich deal even if their offer was lower than the one that got selected. Brazil also took a strong position about not getting trapped by M$ and their bullying marketing practices. The real debate is about long-term benefits of using or not using proprietary technologies. The .doc and OpenDocument issue does not seem to me like the real issue. The real issue is about the choice between being forced to spend millions every few years to upgrade proprietary systems or leave proprietary standards and decide how much we want to spend and when to upgrade the technology. That's where many public organizations around the world are today, and this movement will only get more momentum every day, despite anything M$ will try doing. That means hundreds of millions of $$$ less in M$ coffres every day. This is the real issue! Money speaks... Fran?ois Ouellette -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 13:42:15 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:42:15 -0400 Subject: Microsoft trying to quash OpenDocument In-Reply-To: <1128266454.13516.9.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1128266454.13516.9.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: I'm joing this thread late, but to get the whole story, visit GrokLaw.Net, specifically this article http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050929134232923 which essentially tears the whole story to shreds .. in a very nice way. There are other related articles to do with Massachusetts and open source file formats .. it makes for very interesting reading, especially the part about Microsoft doing an about face on announcing support for output as PDF from their family of applications. My advice, when you hear about something that Microsoft's doing, check out GrokLaw -- odds are that there's an article there already. It's like SlashDot, but the average age is 20 years better -- less lEEt, more erudite. ;) Alex On 10/2/05, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > Latest crap...Convicted monopolist (antitrust is supposed to be a > felony) Microsoft which claims its "word"(tm - go figure) file format > which it has changed over the last few years, is the best choice for > Government, Banks, Legal Firms, Accounting Offices, and the rest of the > business spectrum. It seems any attempt to unseat the spoiled brats will > be met with severe opposition. I sure wish my daddy was a lawyer...like > Bill's. > http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/30/0010.html > > RickT > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 13:58:41 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:58:41 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux In-Reply-To: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051004135841.GE7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 06:44:41PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > This was an old thread, > but I found it VERY interesting > ATI is currently hiring (at head office in Markam) > mutliple people to > > work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca) > > nice to hear! > > I assume with hired guns in shop, ATI can no longer (for long) have unofficial linux support. > hopefully soon they will have fully supported linux drivers. Yeah I applied there about 22 months ago when they were looking for exactly the same thing. Nothing new, but at the time they only had (supposedly) one person working on the linux drives (using the windows opengl core and such). Hopefully they have a lot more now. I never heard back from them at the time, although they did seem rather flooded with applications (I think over a thousand people showed up that day for various positions). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 14:04:55 2005 From: Chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org (Chris Friedt) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:04:55 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux Message-ID: I was contacted by someone at ATI about this position a few years ago too. I was still a student at that point, and they needed someone immediately, so I missed the opportunity :( They've had this posted on their company site for a long time too. ~/Chris ______________________________ Christopher Friedt Ryerson University Computing & Communication Services (416) 979-5000 x6831 chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org >>> lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org 10/04/05 9:58:41 am >>> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 06:44:41PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > This was an old thread, > but I found it VERY interesting > ATI is currently hiring (at head office in Markam) > mutliple people to > > work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca) > > nice to hear! > > I assume with hired guns in shop, ATI can no longer (for long) have unofficial linux support. > hopefully soon they will have fully supported linux drivers. Yeah I applied there about 22 months ago when they were looking for exactly the same thing. Nothing new, but at the time they only had (supposedly) one person working on the linux drives (using the windows opengl core and such). Hopefully they have a lot more now. I never heard back from them at the time, although they did seem rather flooded with applications (I think over a thousand people showed up that day for various positions). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 15:39:40 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:39:40 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux In-Reply-To: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On 10/3/05, ted leslie wrote: > > This was an old thread, > but I found it VERY interesting > ATI is currently hiring (at head office in Markam) > mutliple people to > > work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca ) Interesting that when I tried to visit the site .. it had problems. -------------------------------- Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:35:48 GMT work8.user_login: SIGNATURE (parameter names) MISMATCH VARIABLES IN FORM NOT IN PROCEDURE: NON-DEFAULT VARIABLES IN PROCEDURE NOT IN FORM: PI_USER_TYPE,PI_USERNAME,PI_PASSWORD,PI_ACTION DAD name: db PROCEDURE : work8.user_login URL : http://jobs.workopolis.com:80/jobshome/db/work8.user_login PARAMETERS : =========== ENVIRONMENT: ============ PLSQL_GATEWAY=WebDb GATEWAY_IVERSION=2 SERVER_SOFTWARE=Oracle HTTP Server/1.3.22 (Unix) mod_plsql/9.0.2.0.0 DAV/1.0.2 (OraDAV enabled) mod_oc4j/3.0 mod_fastcgi/2.2.10 mod_perl/1.26 GATEWAY_INTERFACE=CGI/1.1 SERVER_PORT=80 SERVER_NAME=jobs.workopolis.com REQUEST_METHOD=GET QUERY_STRING= PATH_INFO=/work8.user_login SCRIPT_NAME=/jobshome/db .... -------------------------------- Looks like their site is undergoing some work as well. Alex -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 16:10:00 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:10:00 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux In-Reply-To: <20051004135841.GE7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051004135841.GE7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051004161000.GA2269@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:58:41AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 06:44:41PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > This was an old thread, but I found it VERY interesting ATI is > > currently hiring (at head office in Markam) mutliple people to > > > > work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca) > > > > nice to hear! > > > > I assume with hired guns in shop, ATI can no longer (for long) have > > unofficial linux support. hopefully soon they will have fully > > supported linux drivers. > > Yeah I applied there about 22 months ago when they were looking for > exactly the same thing. Nothing new, but at the time they only had > (supposedly) one person working on the linux drives (using the windows > opengl core and such). Hopefully they have a lot more now. > > I never heard back from them at the time, although they did seem > rather flooded with applications (I think over a thousand people > showed up that day for various positions). I suspect it's another PR exercise. They can just hire the guys who wrote the current ATI drivers. Or, publish their specs, and see who takes the bait. In other words, you better have a fully written driver in your portfolio (or resume). I read their job description (some time ago), and I couldn't understand what that had to do with writing ATI video driver for Linux. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 16:56:32 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:56:32 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: <1e55af990510040613w6353fab4y287ad17daf298a96-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502@mail.gmail.com> <200510040002.24450.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510040613w6353fab4y287ad17daf298a96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So here's a strange idea. Could you use the mediawiki RSS feed feature, email the rss changes to an email account running some spam filter. Then if the filter alerts, use that as a basis to revert the wiki edit? -Joseph- P.S. you should try this rock, it's killer! On 10/4/05, Sy Ali wrote: > > On 10/4/05, Tro wrote: > > On Monday October 3 2005 23:05, Sy Ali wrote: > > > Ok.. I played around with it. Is there some special kind of chicken I > > > should sacrifice to make pages editable at all after installing it? > > > My various spam blacklists are all empty/renamed and when this > > > extension is installed.. editing any page just gives a totally blank > > > result when attempting a save. > > > > I wasn't the one installing, so I can't help you, sorry. It shouldn't > give a > > blank result. It simply runs a regex against an entire edit. If it > matches a > > bad url, it will show a "this change was blocked" page; otherwise, it > doesn't > > interfere. > > > > I do remember that the predefined wikipedia/mediawiki blacklist that's > > supposed to be used by default caused problems and had to be disabled. > > Curiously, I was _only_ able to get the wikimedia blacklist to work. > I'll revisit it at a later point. Unfortunately this won't solve the > present problem, since it seems to be engineered to only deface and > not actually change pageranking or the like. > > And of course something as important as a spam filter isn't natively > supported by the wiki.. and of course it wouldn't actually work as > advertised either.. I can only use one single blacklist. =/ > > Well.. I'll revisit things later.. and hopefully I can get chongqed's > list to work, and also use the database page to work. Bleh. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 17:25:28 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:25:28 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux References: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051004135841.GE7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004161000.GA2269@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <000501c5c908$af3f26c0$6501a8c0@ibm5b4y3a0pgrq> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Park" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ATI driver support for linux > On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:58:41AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 06:44:41PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > > This was an old thread, but I found it VERY interesting ATI is > > > currently hiring (at head office in Markam) mutliple people to > > > > > > work on Linux/ATI drivers (see workopolis.ca) > > > > > > nice to hear! > > > > > > I assume with hired guns in shop, ATI can no longer (for long) have > > > unofficial linux support. hopefully soon they will have fully > > > supported linux drivers. > > > > Yeah I applied there about 22 months ago when they were looking for > > exactly the same thing. Nothing new, but at the time they only had > > (supposedly) one person working on the linux drives (using the windows > > opengl core and such). Hopefully they have a lot more now. > > > > I never heard back from them at the time, although they did seem > > rather flooded with applications (I think over a thousand people > > showed up that day for various positions). > > I suspect it's another PR exercise. They can just hire the guys who > wrote the current ATI drivers. Or, publish their specs, and see who > takes the bait. In other words, you better have a fully written driver > in your portfolio (or resume). I read their job description (some time > ago), and I couldn't understand what that had to do with writing ATI > video driver for Linux. I lost faith in ATI a while ago... pity! They have awesome hardware but their drivers have always been poor... I supported them for many years but most of their Win drivers were so-so since the Mach64 models, their Linux support on current cards sucks. Fran?ois Ouellette -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 17:52:56 2005 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:52:56 -0400 Subject: raid controller Message-ID: I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two 400GB HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data on the raid drives? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 18:29:31 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: ATI driver support for linux In-Reply-To: <000501c5c908$af3f26c0$6501a8c0@ibm5b4y3a0pgrq> References: <20051003184441.5a084ef0.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051004135841.GE7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004161000.GA2269@node1.opengeometry.net> <000501c5c908$af3f26c0$6501a8c0@ibm5b4y3a0pgrq> Message-ID: <20051004182931.GF7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 01:25:28PM -0400, Francois Ouellette wrote: > I lost faith in ATI a while ago... pity! They have awesome hardware but > their drivers have always been poor... > I supported them for many years but most of their Win drivers were so-so > since the Mach64 models, their Linux support on current cards sucks. Yeah I too was quite happy with the vga wonder xl24, the mach32 VRAM VLB card, but the windows drivers were not that good when windows became the thing to run. Anything in dos with it's own drivers or using vesa generalyl ran pretty good. By the time of win98 the drivers for the rage II's tv tuner support was dreadful and very buggy, and I stopped buying ATI cards since I wasn't willing to put up with crap drivers. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 19:17:00 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:17:00 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051004191700.GG7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 01:52:56PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two 400GB > HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data on the raid > drives? Must likely yes. Using onboard proprietary software raid is just asking for trouble. Some boards MIGHT use the same on disk format if they use the same controller chip and mostly the same firmware version. I also would rather use something with known good performance for software raid rather than something proprietary that ties me to a specific board and someone's (usually) secret implementation. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 19:24:32 2005 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:24:32 -0400 Subject: raid controller Message-ID: Are you suggesting something like Promise SATA Raid0/1 Controller TX2300? -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sent: October 4, 2005 3:17 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: raid controller On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 01:52:56PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two 400GB > HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data on the raid > drives? Must likely yes. Using onboard proprietary software raid is just asking for trouble. Some boards MIGHT use the same on disk format if they use the same controller chip and mostly the same firmware version. I also would rather use something with known good performance for software raid rather than something proprietary that ties me to a specific board and someone's (usually) secret implementation. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:4342d53e268275075413804! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 19:58:22 2005 From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David C. Chipman) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:58:22 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1128455902.24961.19.camel@david.chipman> Hi Phillip, I've not used RAID before, but I'll see if I can answer your question. I doubt you'll lose any information, just by swapping motherboards. Why would you? The information is still on the disk, after all. I hope this helps, -David Chipman PS; Good luck on the hardware swap, On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 13:52 -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two > 400GB HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data on > the raid drives? > > -- There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 20:11:39 2005 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:11:39 -0400 Subject: raid controller Message-ID: I just want decide whether I will go for the raid controller on my motherboard or buy a raid card. However, raid is not configured in software, it is rather setup in raid controller's bios. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of David C. Chipman Sent: October 4, 2005 3:58 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: raid controller Hi Phillip, I've not used RAID before, but I'll see if I can answer your question. I doubt you'll lose any information, just by swapping motherboards. Why would you? The information is still on the disk, after all. I hope this helps, -David Chipman PS; Good luck on the hardware swap, On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 13:52 -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two > 400GB HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data on > the raid drives? > > -- There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:4342deec269721487720440! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 20:17:33 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:17:33 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 4, 2005 13:52, Phillip Qin wrote: > I have an onboard SATA raid controller. I plan to use RAID-1 on two > 400GB HDDs. If I replace/upgrade my motherboard, will I lose data > on the raid drives? I will second what Lennart wrote and can cite first-hand experience with the problem of using hardware RAID. I have a couple of servers that use the MegaRAID controller. MegaRAID is not exactly uncommon. I had Linux running on both of those machines at one time or another, one a Dell, the other an HP, both fully supporting the drives that were created by the hardware controller. They were both long overdue for a refresh so rather than do an upgrade and preserve the same disk formatting, I wanted to do a fresh installation with LVM so that I could have some flexibility. No matter which distro I tried, no current version would detect the drives created by the hardware RAID controller. It turns out there was a change in the megaraid module after the 2.6.9 version of the kernel. The same module no longer supports the older hardware. So, I blew away the hardware RAID sets, disabled the RAID controllers completely, and used Linux software RAID and LVM. Software RAID is not likely to change to the point where you will not be able to see the drives that were created by older versions whereas apparently, hardware RAID support can change for the worse over time. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From agtnews-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 20:31:43 2005 From: agtnews-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Allen Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:31:43 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <1128455902.24961.19.camel-lQMCrfjKGrJ3Ex1Y5TzZUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1128455902.24961.19.camel@david.chipman> Message-ID: <20051004203143.GA15841@thecat.localnet> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 03:58:22PM -0400, David C. Chipman wrote: > Hi Phillip, > > I've not used RAID before, but I'll see if I can answer your question. > I doubt you'll lose any information, just by swapping motherboards. Why > would you? The information is still on the disk, after all. I hope this > helps, > > -David Chipman > > PS; Good luck on the hardware swap, Unfortunately, the data will still be on the disk but unless you have the software/bios/controller that knows the exact format that the data is stored in, you won't be able to access it. From my readings, when I was setting up some RAID servers, you have to be very careful with hardware raid, especially if it's implemented as an onboard bios rather than true hardware. No two implementations are exactly alike! For my purposes, I have used the Linux based software raid for a RAID-5 at home and and a RAID-1 at my wife's church and have been quite happy so far. With these setups, I can take one or two (for the RAID-5) disks to another machine, boot the correct version of Linux, and bingo, all data is available. Of course, implementing RAID does not eliminate the need for other backups of your data. :-) Allen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ryan-TmYVyGByI+TYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:16:05 2005 From: ryan-TmYVyGByI+TYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Ryan Sanders) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:16:05 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4342F115.3080603@iclei.org> > I will second what Lennart wrote and can cite first-hand experience > with the problem of using hardware RAID. I have a couple of servers > that use the MegaRAID controller. MegaRAID is not exactly uncommon. I > had Linux running on both of those machines at one time or another, > one a Dell, the other an HP, both fully supporting the drives that > were created by the hardware controller. They were both long overdue > for a refresh so rather than do an upgrade and preserve the same disk > formatting, I wanted to do a fresh installation with LVM so that I > could have some flexibility. No matter which distro I tried, no > current version would detect the drives created by the hardware RAID > controller. It turns out there was a change in the megaraid module > after the 2.6.9 version of the kernel. The same module no longer > supports the older hardware. So, I blew away the hardware RAID sets, > disabled the RAID controllers completely, and used Linux software > RAID and LVM. Software RAID is not likely to change to the point > where you will not be able to see the drives that were created by > older versions whereas apparently, hardware RAID support can change > for the worse over time. If you are really worried about data loss, the best answer is to is to back up your data first / perform regular backups ;) Ryan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:33:34 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:33:34 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051003171328.GA7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 01:13:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Hmm, in my experience the majority of software developed using VB > is of a quality such that the world would have been better off had > it never been written. > > Why not just use python or something with wxwindows if you want > cross platform. Or use libsdl and gcc/g++ and you can write code > that runs on either without too much extra overhead. > > From what I have seen most of these tools make crappy hard to maintain > code and are only a time saver for getting a proof of concept demo out > the door, but should not be used for a full application development. Freebasic (aka fbc) is free, free, free as in GPL (LGPL for the library). It started off as a QBASIC/Quickbasic clone and it has some extensions. I used QBASIC a lot in DOS and Windows at work (before discovering Cygwin and bash scripting). For stuff where perl is overkill, not to mention slow, a Quickbasic clone makes a lot more sense. If you can write QBASIC code (text or graphics), you can write fbc. It currently runs on DOS (32-bit mode), all Windows versions, and linux. The "basic" aproach is to write code in a text file, and compile. fbc foobar.bas ...generates a native executable named foobar. There is an IDE available if you prefer. The project home is http://sourceforge.net/projects/fbc/ and the support forum is http://www.freebasic.net -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 22:20:15 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:20:15 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <4342F115.3080603-TmYVyGByI+TYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <4342F115.3080603@iclei.org> Message-ID: <200510041820.15903.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 4, 2005 17:16, Ryan Sanders wrote: > > I will second what Lennart wrote and can cite first-hand > > experience with the problem of using hardware RAID. I have a > > couple of servers that use the MegaRAID controller. MegaRAID is > > not exactly uncommon. I had Linux running on both of those > > machines at one time or another, one a Dell, the other an HP, > > both fully supporting the drives that were created by the > > hardware controller. They were both long overdue for a refresh so > > rather than do an upgrade and preserve the same disk formatting, > > I wanted to do a fresh installation with LVM so that I could have > > some flexibility. No matter which distro I tried, no current > > version would detect the drives created by the hardware RAID > > controller. It turns out there was a change in the megaraid > > module after the 2.6.9 version of the kernel. The same module no > > longer supports the older hardware. So, I blew away the hardware > > RAID sets, disabled the RAID controllers completely, and used > > Linux software RAID and LVM. Software RAID is not likely to > > change to the point where you will not be able to see the drives > > that were created by older versions whereas apparently, hardware > > RAID support can change for the worse over time. > > If you are really worried about data loss, the best answer is to > is to back up your data first / perform regular backups ;) Perhaps you missed the part where I said this was a fresh installation with the objective of switching to LVM. Clearly, data loss was not a worry since I was going to quite deliberately destroy all the data on those drives when I deleted all the partitions and created new ones with LVM. The issue was that the MegaRAID controller that was previously supported by Linux was no longer supported so I could not even install as the drives were no longer visible to Linux. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 22:24:41 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 18:24:41 -0400 Subject: Mounting Kodak EasyShare Dig Camera Message-ID: <43430129.7020606@sympatico.ca> I have a Kodak EasyShare DX7630 digital camera (PTP) that has built-in 32MB memory and an SD card. Has anyone been able to mount this type of camera? I haven't been able to do it. A simple mount (exclusive of gphoto2) would be good enough for me. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 22:44:53 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: October Meeting Message-ID: Hi all. I've had a bit of trouble securing someone for the October meeting. Would anyone like to step up to the plate for a 60 minute talk on their favourite Linux related subject? If so email me. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 00:04:20 2005 From: skrishnan-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Srinivasan Krishnan) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:04:20 -0400 Subject: Linux developer positions open in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <20051003172515.GC7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <004401c5c492$35bd12a0$6501a8c0@ATLANTIS> <1128182172.3086.7.camel@ambipapa> <20051003172515.GC7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1128470660.1156.4.camel@ambipapa> On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 13:25 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Hmm, so is Nortel finally getting around to replacing the NT/Jave system > of the BCM with Linux? Odd, I thought I remember a couple of years ago > they were talking about doing that, I thought it would have been done > already. > Actually, I believe they already have a Linux based release in 4.0, which IIRC was to have been out in June/ July. My company does have a BCM, which unfortunately still runs NT (release 3.6), but is surprisingly stable. Krishnan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 01:56:29 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: October Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50077.207.188.67.74.1128477389.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Rob - I did a talk a few years ago for TLUG on using Tcl to prototype user interfaces for electronic hardware. The project I talked about at that time has matured and so I could talk about how it developed and the things we've learned about using Tcl. This would be of particular interest to electrical engineers in the group. I can also talk about the pros and cons of Tcl for this type of application. We have a hardware oscilloscope and signal generator running under a Tcl GUI that we could demo. This would be for 11 October, right? I won't feel badly if you get a better offer, either ;). Wh Peter > Hi all. I've had a bit of trouble securing someone for the October > meeting. Would anyone like to step up to the plate for a 60 minute talk > on their favourite Linux related subject? > > If so email me. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 > Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 02:18:28 2005 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:18:28 -0400 Subject: PCB Help...Again In-Reply-To: <4330BC30.9050705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <432B8C13.3000403@alteeve.com> <432CC830.1020900@alteeve.com> <1127022461.6450.2.camel@david> <432E30B0.7080409@alteeve.com> <432E36BC.3090600@alteeve.com> <4330BC30.9050705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434337F4.8010706@alteeve.com> Thanks to all who tried to help! I finaly got it! Although the 'configure' script didn't complain, I needed gtk2-devel installed also. Once that was installed, it compiled and installed perfectly. Now I can work with my original file Again! Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hanoglu-ueTEkjIHS1VWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 03:14:22 2005 From: hanoglu-ueTEkjIHS1VWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:14:22 -0400 Subject: Mounting Kodak EasyShare Dig Camera In-Reply-To: <43430129.7020606-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43430129.7020606@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4343450E.8020005@ideefixe.com> Hello, John Moniz wrote: > I have a Kodak EasyShare DX7630 digital camera (PTP) that has built-in > 32MB memory and an SD card. Has anyone been able to mount this type of > camera? I haven't been able to do it. A simple mount (exclusive of > gphoto2) would be good enough for me. If it supports, you can mount it with "mount" command. Open a terminal, become root, do "tail -f /var/log/messages" and then plug the camera and watch the terminal. If you see that Linux recognizes it as a storage device, then you can mount it with "mount" command. Burhan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 03:15:36 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:15:36 -0400 Subject: October Meeting In-Reply-To: <50077.207.188.67.74.1128477389.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50077.207.188.67.74.1128477389.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051005031536.GA2716@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:56:29PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Rob - > > I did a talk a few years ago for TLUG on using Tcl to prototype user > interfaces for electronic hardware. The project I talked about at that > time has matured and so I could talk about how it developed and the > things we've learned about using Tcl. This would be of particular > interest to electrical engineers in the group. I can also talk about > the pros and cons of Tcl for this type of application. > > We have a hardware oscilloscope and signal generator running under a > Tcl GUI that we could demo. > > This would be for 11 October, right? > > I won't feel badly if you get a better offer, either ;). That would be interesting demo. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 03:16:17 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:16:17 -0400 Subject: Mounting Kodak EasyShare Dig Camera In-Reply-To: <43430129.7020606-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43430129.7020606@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051005031617.GA5248@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 06:24:41PM -0400, John Moniz wrote: >I have a Kodak EasyShare DX7630 digital camera (PTP) that has built-in >32MB memory and an SD card. Has anyone been able to mount this type of >camera? I haven't been able to do it. A simple mount (exclusive of >gphoto2) would be good enough for me. I haven't had much success mounting cameras, but I have had no trouble with SD or CF cards in cardreaders - which have the advantage of not draining the camera battery and letting you swap media and keep shooting while off-loading your photos. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 05:54:53 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: October Meeting In-Reply-To: <50077.207.188.67.74.1128477389.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50077.207.188.67.74.1128477389.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I won't feel badly if you get a better offer, either ;). Hi Peter. I just got an earlier offer :) I would like to schedule you in for a later meeting though. We can take this to private email. As a sign of the fact that I've been in Toronto for a while now I actually remember when you did the talk before :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 09:33:15 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:33:15 +0300 (IDT) Subject: regexp matching question Message-ID: Hi all I need to match email messages using regexec(3). I would like to match as much as possible in a piece, i.e. the interesting headers and the body (which could be large). Can this be done and is it economical (speedwise) to use a single hairy regexp to match the whole message or is it better to match the message and then parse it ? formail already does this somehow (I have not looked yet). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 11:41:44 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:41:44 -0400 Subject: Mounting Kodak EasyShare Dig Camera In-Reply-To: <43430129.7020606-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43430129.7020606@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: If the camera can support it, switch from ptp mode to generic (classic) mode. If you really want to use ptp then try jphoto. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of John Moniz > Sent: October 4, 2005 6:25 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: Mounting Kodak EasyShare Dig Camera > > I have a Kodak EasyShare DX7630 digital camera (PTP) that has built-in > 32MB memory and an SD card. Has anyone been able to mount this type of > camera? I haven't been able to do it. A simple mount (exclusive of > gphoto2) would be good enough for me. > > John. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:33:50 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:33:50 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have any experiences with these drives? Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB IDE (16MB Cache, 7200rpm) Specifically, any BAD experiences? Also, do they run quiet at all? I'm seeing them selling for around $160, which sounds like a good deal. Thanks for any info. -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:43:35 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:43:35 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <1128455902.24961.19.camel-lQMCrfjKGrJ3Ex1Y5TzZUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1128455902.24961.19.camel@david.chipman> Message-ID: <20051005134335.GI7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 03:58:22PM -0400, David C. Chipman wrote: > I've not used RAID before, but I'll see if I can answer your question. > I doubt you'll lose any information, just by swapping motherboards. Why > would you? The information is still on the disk, after all. I hope this > helps, Because a raid has to store information about the raid on the disk in a format the raid card can read and recognize. This data is usually vendor specific. There is no standard that I have ever heard of for how to put raid information onto a disk in the raid. The data is still on the disk, but if you can't start the raid because your raid controller doesn't understand the raid information on the disk, then you can't access the data. Different vendors might even place the raid data on the disk in a different order. Different stripe sizes, etc (doesn't apply to raid1, but does to everything else of course). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:41:36 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:41:36 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051005134136.GH7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 03:24:32PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > Are you suggesting something like Promise SATA Raid0/1 Controller TX2300? If Promise makes a hardware raid card, I am not aware of it. I certainly haven't heard of any that had linux drivers. They make lots of proprietary software raid cards (where the driver/cpu does all the work, and they are nowhere near as efficient as linux's software raid drivers). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:47:36 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:47:36 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051005134736.GJ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 04:17:33PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I will second what Lennart wrote and can cite first-hand experience > with the problem of using hardware RAID. I have a couple of servers > that use the MegaRAID controller. MegaRAID is not exactly uncommon. I > had Linux running on both of those machines at one time or another, > one a Dell, the other an HP, both fully supporting the drives that > were created by the hardware controller. They were both long overdue > for a refresh so rather than do an upgrade and preserve the same disk > formatting, I wanted to do a fresh installation with LVM so that I > could have some flexibility. No matter which distro I tried, no > current version would detect the drives created by the hardware RAID > controller. It turns out there was a change in the megaraid module > after the 2.6.9 version of the kernel. The same module no longer > supports the older hardware. So, I blew away the hardware RAID sets, > disabled the RAID controllers completely, and used Linux software > RAID and LVM. Software RAID is not likely to change to the point > where you will not be able to see the drives that were created by > older versions whereas apparently, hardware RAID support can change > for the worse over time. Actually it appears there are now two megaraid drivers, and you need to use the right one to access the old format. I think that would be the megaraid_mbox driver. The other driver is the megaraid driver. In the older kernels yeah that was just megaraid. I haven't used a megaraid card so I am not sure why they changed things and started having two drivers. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:51:39 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:51:39 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051005135139.GK7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 04:11:39PM -0400, Phillip Qin wrote: > I just want decide whether I will go for the raid controller on my > motherboard or buy a raid card. However, raid is not configured in software, > it is rather setup in raid controller's bios. Using the onboard card is just a controller and running linux software raid, is what I always do. Even many real raid cards can't match the performance of linux software raid on a modern cpu if the cpu doesn't really have much else to do. People even use 3ware hardware raid cards as just 12 port sata controllers in a single slot, and ignore the onboard raid ability since linux software raid can be much faster in many cases. Usually if it is less than $200 for the card, it is NOT a real raid card. It is at best a fake raid proprietary software raid card (which was very bad support in linux if any at all). Usually most scsi hardware raid cards are support, and things like 3ware and areca sata hardware raid cards are supported. I believe most start at around $400 for the card and can easily hit $2000+ for a scsi raid card. I imagine you can probably get a 16 to 24 port sata raid card for about $1000. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:53:05 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:53:05 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051004213334.GA31863-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 05:33:34PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Freebasic (aka fbc) is free, free, free as in GPL (LGPL for the > library). It started off as a QBASIC/Quickbasic clone and it has some > extensions. I used QBASIC a lot in DOS and Windows at work (before > discovering Cygwin and bash scripting). For stuff where perl is > overkill, not to mention slow, a Quickbasic clone makes a lot more > sense. If you can write QBASIC code (text or graphics), you can write > fbc. It currently runs on DOS (32-bit mode), all Windows versions, and > linux. > > The "basic" aproach is to write code in a text file, and compile. > fbc foobar.bas > ...generates a native executable named foobar. There is an IDE > available if you prefer. > > The project home is http://sourceforge.net/projects/fbc/ and the > support forum is http://www.freebasic.net I really don't think I miss BASIC at all. Nope quite sure. :) Why use BASIC when many much nicer languages with saner syntax exist like OCAML, Python, etc. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 13:56:57 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:56:57 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051005135657.GM7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:33:50AM -0400, Steve wrote: > Does anyone have any experiences with these drives? > > Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB IDE (16MB Cache, 7200rpm) > > Specifically, any BAD experiences? Also, do they run quiet at all? I'm > seeing them selling for around $160, which sounds like a good deal. So far the reviews look good. I haven't used one. I have used mostly WD drives lately, although I do have a couple of 80GB Diamond Plus 9 I think they are. Other than one failing the day I installed it out of the batch, the rest have worked great. It seems that generally Maxtor's merge with Quantum has managed to keep producing very nice drives. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:13:13 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:13:13 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: <20051005135657.GM7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005135657.GM7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/5/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:33:50AM -0400, Steve wrote: > > Does anyone have any experiences with these drives? > > > > Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB IDE (16MB Cache, 7200rpm) > > > > Specifically, any BAD experiences? Also, do they run quiet at all? I'm > > seeing them selling for around $160, which sounds like a good deal. > > So far the reviews look good. I haven't used one. I have used mostly > WD drives lately, although I do have a couple of 80GB Diamond Plus 9 I > think they are. Other than one failing the day I installed it out of > the batch, the rest have worked great. > > It seems that generally Maxtor's merge with Quantum has managed to keep > producing very nice drives. > > Lennart Sorensen Failing the first day is the best time for it to happen! :-) Thanks for the info. -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:38:48 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:38:48 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: References: <20051005135657.GM7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051005143848.GN7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:13:13AM -0400, Steve wrote: > Failing the first day is the best time for it to happen! :-) Yes I thought it was a perfect time to fail too. I think it lasted 2 or 3 hours. No problem getting it exchanged either. > Thanks for the info. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:37:45 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:37:45 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <20051005134736.GJ7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051005134736.GJ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200510051037.46179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 5, 2005 09:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Actually it appears there are now two megaraid drivers, and you > need to use the right one to access the old format. I think that > would be the megaraid_mbox driver. The other driver is the > megaraid driver. Tried both. Neither worked. Linux software RAID has been working fine. > In the older kernels yeah that was just megaraid. > > I haven't used a megaraid card so I am not sure why they changed > things and started having two drivers. Or why they couldn't call the *newer* one something else, like megaraid2, or some such thing. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:40:08 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:40:08 -0400 Subject: raid controller In-Reply-To: <200510051037.46179.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200510041617.33644.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051005134736.GJ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200510051037.46179.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051005144008.GO7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:37:45AM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Tried both. Neither worked. Linux software RAID has been working fine. Now that certainly is stupid. You can't just abandon existing users because you think it is convinient. How weird. There has to be more to the driver mess. > Or why they couldn't call the *newer* one something else, like > megaraid2, or some such thing. I can't imagine. Crazy developer? :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:51:02 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 10:51:02 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4343E856.9040901@telly.org> Steve wrote: >Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB IDE (16MB Cache, 7200rpm) > >Specifically, any BAD experiences? Also, do they run quiet at all? I'm >seeing them selling for around $160, which sounds like a good deal. > > I have no experience with the Maxtors. When I was shopping around recently, I was advised by multiple sources that Seagate Barracudas were the quietest of the bunch. Noise was important to me, so I took the advice; I have mine in an Antec Sonata2 case and you can barely hear the thing when it's on. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 14:59:16 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:59:16 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: <4343E856.9040901-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4343E856.9040901@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051005145916.GP7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:51:02AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have no experience with the Maxtors. When I was shopping around > recently, I was advised by multiple sources that Seagate Barracudas were > the quietest of the bunch. Noise was important to me, so I took the > advice; I have mine in an Antec Sonata2 case and you can barely hear the > thing when it's on. Seagate sata drives have also had a lot of problems with certain sata controllers due to firmware bugs in the seagate drives. I hope they have fixed it by now, but I have been avoiding seagate drives for that reason. The controller might have been considered picky or odd, but the drive was the one violating the sata spec. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 15:42:27 2005 From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:42:27 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB Message-ID: I run 8 of these in 2. Adaptec hot swap boxes (built in fans) with no problems but it's warm. When originally installed in the Dell sc420 drive slots (supports 4 drives, 2 installed, and oem drive), constant data failures and smart errors about overheating. These drives run VERY HOT and need decent airflow to keep them in check D Dave Bour Desktop Solution Center 905.381.0077 dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca For those who just want it to work... Giving you complete IT peace of mind. (Sent via Blackberry) PIN 30073084 (as of May 9,2005) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org Sent: Wed Oct 05 09:56:57 2005 Subject: Re: [TLUG]: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:33:50AM -0400, Steve wrote: > Does anyone have any experiences with these drives? > > Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB IDE (16MB Cache, 7200rpm) > > Specifically, any BAD experiences? Also, do they run quiet at all? I'm > seeing them selling for around $160, which sounds like a good deal. So far the reviews look good. I haven't used one. I have used mostly WD drives lately, although I do have a couple of 80GB Diamond Plus 9 I think they are. Other than one failing the day I installed it out of the batch, the rest have worked great. It seems that generally Maxtor's merge with Quantum has managed to keep producing very nice drives. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 16:00:28 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:00:28 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: <20051005145916.GP7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4343E856.9040901@telly.org> <20051005145916.GP7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4343F89C.90805@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Seagate sata drives have also had a lot of problems with certain sata >controllers due to firmware bugs in the seagate drives. > Didn't come across that, but then I went for good old parallel ATA. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 16:04:44 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:04:44 -0400 Subject: [OT] Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/5/05, Dave Bour wrote: > > I run 8 of these in 2. Adaptec hot swap boxes (built in fans) with no > problems but it's warm. When originally installed in the Dell sc420 drive > slots (supports 4 drives, 2 installed, and oem drive), constant data > failures and smart errors about overheating. > These drives run VERY HOT and need decent airflow to keep them in check > D > Dave Bour Dave, Thanks for the warning. I will definitely keep that in mind. I might install a fan for it if I decide to buy (I've already got an unused fan mount for that bay). -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 16:09:14 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:09:14 -0300 (ADT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you would like to 'grep' a mailbox file and extract messages containing some RE, the easiest and fastest way I know of is using cgrep from the University of Waterloo. I have a link to the source code + a report that shows how to do the above at: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/greps.html Using regexec might not be the way to go because it requires the entire string to be in memory. If you want to deal with large strings (stored in files) properly, then you'd be reinventing the grep program, so just look at the source code instead. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Peter wrote: > > Hi all > > I need to match email messages using regexec(3). I would like to match > as much as possible in a piece, i.e. the interesting headers and the > body (which could be large). Can this be done and is it economical > (speedwise) to use a single hairy regexp to match the whole message or > is it better to match the message and then parse it ? formail already > does this somehow (I have not looked yet). > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 16:41:09 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:41:09 +0300 (IDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > If you would like to 'grep' a mailbox file and extract messages containing > some RE, the easiest and fastest way I know of is using cgrep from the > University of Waterloo. > > I have a link to the source code + a report that shows how to do the above > at: > > http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/greps.html > > Using regexec might not be the way to go because it requires the entire > string to be in memory. If you want to deal with large strings (stored in > files) properly, then you'd be reinventing the grep program, so just look > at the source code instead. Ok, thanks. I wanted to use regexec because I intend to process the data in the message but you may be right. Having the whole string in memory is not really necessary. I have implemented a function that has a suitably large 'window' on the file open in memory. I have also looked at the formail program source, which does what I need but it very hard to understand. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 20:04:13 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Projector for Oct talk Message-ID: Hi all. We'll be needing a projector suitable for connection to a laptop for the October talk. Could some kind person offer to bring one along. TIA. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 20:02:19 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:02:19 -0400 Subject: SUSE 9.3 and PostgreSQL? Message-ID: <4344314B.2010009@alteeve.com> Hi all, This may be a foolish question but... I am working on the docs for my program and wanted to make sure the program works on SUSE 9.3 (and record what it took to get it going). Now, the thing is I can't seem to find PostgreSQL in the YaST package manager any where? Can someone tell me what package name I am looking for or if PostgreSQL is even available for SUSE 9.3 (short of manually installing it)? Thanks! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 20:44:34 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:44:34 -0400 Subject: SUSE 9.3 and PostgreSQL? In-Reply-To: <4344314B.2010009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4344314B.2010009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: I think that you have to have the 9.3 DVD to install postgres. Not on the CDs for some reason???? -Joseph- On 10/5/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > This may be a foolish question but... > > I am working on the docs for my program and wanted to make sure the > program works on SUSE 9.3 (and record what it took to get it going). > Now, the thing is I can't seem to find PostgreSQL in the YaST package > manager any where? > > Can someone tell me what package name I am looking for or if > PostgreSQL is even available for SUSE 9.3 (short of manually installing > it)? > > Thanks! > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up > Main project page: http://tle-bu.org > Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 > Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 20:45:24 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:45:24 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43443B64.20500@sympatico.ca> The O'Reilly regex book -- at least the first edition I have -- spent a whole chapter on explaining an enormous catch-all expression for mail messages. I actually remember understanding it, until I ran out of stack space a few minutes later. I suspect there's a Perl library that'll do this for you, probably in Mail::* cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 20:52:31 2005 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:52:31 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510031508o7572b8d0k711b454c54e61eae-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> <20051003210204.GD7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031508o7572b8d0k711b454c54e61eae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <940DE32F-F60C-4E4A-BCDE-BF339457D487@ca.afilias.info> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 3-Oct-05, at 18:08, psema4 wrote: > Python's one of the main reason's I'm heading over to Seneca's OSS > Symposium this month. It'll be nice to finally take a look at it. > > I don't know about the runtime situation - at first glance, it looks > like it's producing static executables, but will have to spend some > time and get a better idea of how "bad" the output is. Python is a scripting language. Like many scripting languages, it can be compiled to bytecode, but it still requires an interpreter to run. I'm wondering if by "bad" you're talking about execution speed. Many of python's critics point to benchmarks which demonstrate that a program written in python runs slower than a similar program written in whatever language they happen to be looking at. The limiting factor in the vast majority of computing related problems is not runtime speed. >> I don't think this is at all the kind of thing Linux (or Windows for >> that matter) needs. >> > > Whether any OS needs it or not, the tool's exist. Either programmers > can make them useful, or non-programmers will. :S You assume that non-programmers have the capacity to make such tools useful. However, I'd suggest that there are people who simply do not think in a way that allow them to do anything like programming. Unless your RAD tool finds a completely new way of either doing or at least representing the process of computing, it will not enable these people. >>> In addition to the standard GUI and database components, it includes >>> components for building games, internet applications, etc. >>> >> >> Tools to let non programmers think they can write programs are not >> that >> useful in my opinion because they don't make people good programers. >> > > Agreed, though there's nothing but education and experience to make a > good programmer. Programming concepts are mostly not specific to any > tool or language though. Programming paradigms are often suggested, facilitated or even enforced by languages. For example, it requires quite a bit of effort to do object oriented programming in c, however it's almost impossible to avoid in python. However I should point out that some peoples thought processes just do not map very well to the methods that computer science has to date discovered. >>> The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid >>> code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a >>> good >>> thing for the desktop. >>> >> >> Because desktop users expect crappy applications? >> > > Not really. Because after hearing about linux often enough they'll > take a look. The more similarities that exist between desktop > applications (on linux, mac, 'doze) the easier it will be for them to > migrate from one OS to another. > > If I could count the number of times I've had "average" home users > look at linux, only to watch them fall back to windows because app-x > doesn't work anything like it does on windows... Perhaps that is because windows suites their needs better? Helping users define and then meet their needs is the only form of advocacy that makes sense to me. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Data Services Group Manager, Afilias Canada Corp. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRD0Pgfzn5SevSpoRAgWvAJ91BK57EKW8sLvwSm1tmpQ9zZUJcQCgmLQX mKUQaJp3G403YLZljstRDnc= =cxsR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 21:12:42 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:12:42 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 12:33:15PM +0300, Peter wrote: > > Hi all > > I need to match email messages using regexec(3). I would like to match > as much as possible in a piece, i.e. the interesting headers and the > body (which could be large). Can this be done and is it economical > (speedwise) to use a single hairy regexp to match the whole message or > is it better to match the message and then parse it ? formail already > does this somehow (I have not looked yet). Such question is asked by newbie. But, since you're asking this, there must be something else to it. Can you give an example? Header and body are separate section of email message, so they should be searched separately. There is no reason why an email message shouldn't be in memory (ie. procmail does it), so without more detail, it's difficult to answer. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 21:27:16 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:27:16 +0300 (IDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <43443B64.20500-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43443B64.20500@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > The O'Reilly regex book -- at least the first edition I have -- spent a whole > chapter on explaining an enormous catch-all expression for mail messages. I > actually remember understanding it, until I ran out of stack space a few > minutes later. > > I suspect there's a Perl library that'll do this for you, probably in Mail::* Wee, I have that book. Why did I not look on the shelf ? I was trying to make sense of it using Perl and I discovered that perl -wlpe 's/../../m;' does not work as I thought it would. The loop implied by -lp seems to sabotage the potential of the /m flag. Another thing to try is tcl. tcl's regexp(n) gives full access to regexp (including subexpression matches etc). I have used it a lot this year. However tcl has really strange quoting rules under certain circumstances imho. Please keep the ideas coming, I can already see some progress. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 21:58:36 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:58:36 +0300 (IDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051005211242.GA2093-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 12:33:15PM +0300, Peter wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> I need to match email messages using regexec(3). I would like to match >> as much as possible in a piece, i.e. the interesting headers and the >> body (which could be large). Can this be done and is it economical >> (speedwise) to use a single hairy regexp to match the whole message or >> is it better to match the message and then parse it ? formail already >> does this somehow (I have not looked yet). > > Such question is asked by newbie. But, since you're asking this, there > must be something else to it. Can you give an example? > > Header and body are separate section of email message, so they should be > searched separately. There is no reason why an email message shouldn't > be in memory (ie. procmail does it), so without more detail, it's > difficult to answer. Basically I have several mail files which contain messages and duplicates thereof (possibly with different headers). The goal is to end up with one file containing all the messages, with duplicates pruned. In theory formail should be able to split the files into messages and feed them to something that can uniq them (the criteria for uniq is identical body, disregarding all headers). So far I am using a scheme where formail splits the message, then again the body and relevant headers, and then I compute a md5sum hash on the body and refer to the message by that hash as a key. Duplicates end up with the same key and are rejected after a comparison. I used md5sum because it is well-tested. I also do a comparison before rejecting a duplicate. The problem is that formail fails to properly split certain files and I do not know why. I tried to understand the problem but formail source is un-maintainable imho. Thus I am trying to work around it using my own matcher. That's where the regexp question came in. The question was, whether someone tried to use the regexp C library to match and then split whole messages, possibly 5+MB in size. I think that it can be done, if the Content-length: header is ignored, but I don't know, so I ask. If it is possible, then it may save me some work with a 'proper' parser that matches the header start, the header end/body start and the file end/next message start. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pkay-Wu5PbJhdqlKw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 23:38:03 2005 From: pkay-Wu5PbJhdqlKw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Phil Kay) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 19:38:03 -0400 Subject: SUSE 9.3 and PostgreSQL? In-Reply-To: <4344314B.2010009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4344314B.2010009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1128555484.25476.2.camel@athlonlinux.thekays.ca> On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:02 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > This may be a foolish question but... > > I am working on the docs for my program and wanted to make sure the > program works on SUSE 9.3 (and record what it took to get it going). > Now, the thing is I can't seem to find PostgreSQL in the YaST package > manager any where? > > Can someone tell me what package name I am looking for or if > PostgreSQL is even available for SUSE 9.3 (short of manually installing it)? Madison, I did an ftp install and the package names in YaST are postgresql and postgresql-server. I did search in YaST for postgre and that's what came up. -- Phil Kay -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 00:30:02 2005 From: rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org (Rick Delaney) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:30:02 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <43443B64.20500@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051006003002.GA18424@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:27:16AM +0300, Peter wrote: > > I was trying to make sense of it using Perl and I discovered that perl > -wlpe 's/../../m;' does not work as I thought it would. The loop implied > by -lp seems to sabotage the potential of the /m flag. You can change the record separator on the command-line so that /m becomes useful again. Process entire message: perl -0777 -wpe 's/../../m' < message Process a paragraph at a time (the header is the first paragraph): perl -00 -wpe 's/../../m' < message -- Rick Delaney rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 01:24:03 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:24:03 -0400 Subject: SUSE 9.3 and PostgreSQL? In-Reply-To: <1128555484.25476.2.camel-qgzJPrZbLTdkqIDb8vvs/hD8XtZQyXOh@public.gmane.org> References: <4344314B.2010009@alteeve.com> <1128555484.25476.2.camel@athlonlinux.thekays.ca> Message-ID: <43447CB3.3060805@alteeve.com> Phil Kay wrote: > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:02 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >> This may be a foolish question but... >> >> I am working on the docs for my program and wanted to make sure the >>program works on SUSE 9.3 (and record what it took to get it going). >>Now, the thing is I can't seem to find PostgreSQL in the YaST package >>manager any where? >> >> Can someone tell me what package name I am looking for or if >>PostgreSQL is even available for SUSE 9.3 (short of manually installing it)? > > > Madison, > > I did an ftp install and the package names in YaST are postgresql and > postgresql-server. I did search in YaST for postgre and that's what > came up. > Thanks. I hadn't defined a web source for packages so YaST was still looking on the CDs which doesn't seem to have those packages. I was able to find RPMs for PostgreSQL on RPMFind.net though. Thanks for the reply (thanks to Andrew and Joseph, too!) Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 02:54:14 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:54:14 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:58:36AM +0300, Peter wrote > The problem is that formail fails to properly split certain files > and I do not know why. I tried to understand the problem but formail > source is un-maintainable imho. Thus I am trying to work around it > using my own matcher. That's where the regexp question came in. The problem is that there are no "out-of-band" separaters in an mbox file. There are certain header-pattern conventions which imply a separator. You can run into situations where the text of an email message contains what looks like headers/separators, even to the most sophisticated matching algorithm. It can be hard to separate email body >From headers. It's not quite as bad as Microsoft's "begin loveletter.txt.exe" cockup, but the principle is the same. If you subscribe to a procmail or other anti-spam list, where people post sample email headers, you *WILL* see formail screw up the splits. This is one area where maildir format reigns supreme. PS, I originally got into linux because I wanted to test procmail filters on my home machine. Several years ago (dog's ages) dialup accounts were 25 or 30 hours per month, with surcharges for extra usage. I read on the procmail mailing list that some people were running procmail on linux. I went out and got a remaindered intro to linux book with Redhat 5.2 CD's, and installed linux on an old clunker machine. The rest is history. BTW, is it possible to search the list archive for the first email from waltdnes-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org all those years ago? It would be either late 1999 or sometime in 2000. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 02:54:43 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:54:43 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051005135305.GL7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:53:05AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > I really don't think I miss BASIC at all. Nope quite sure. :) > > Why use BASIC when many much nicer languages with saner syntax exist > like OCAML, Python, etc. I've recently begun a personal pet project where I need to process a honking big text file and produce a relatively smaller, but still quite large text file. I need a *COMPILED* language for that. I need to have multiple filehandles reading from the same input file. I need to do string-handling and number-crunching. If..THEN..ELSE, SELECT CASE, and various looping constructs are required. I do *NOT* need "abject ornamentation". I do *NOT* need multiple inheritance that creates an object that's both a tooth paste *AND* a floor wax. Bill Gates' "Visual Basic" abortion has "embraced and extended" Basic and given lean/mean compiled Basics an undeserved bad reputation. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 03:28:27 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051006025414.GA1448-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:58:36AM +0300, Peter wrote > > > The problem is that formail fails to properly split certain files > > and I do not know why. I tried to understand the problem but formail > > source is un-maintainable imho. Thus I am trying to work around it > > using my own matcher. That's where the regexp question came in. > > The problem is that there are no "out-of-band" separaters in an mbox > file. There are certain header-pattern conventions which imply a > separator. You can run into situations where the text of an email > message contains what looks like headers/separators, even to the most > sophisticated matching algorithm. It can be hard to separate email body > >From headers. It's not quite as bad as Microsoft's > "begin loveletter.txt.exe" cockup, but the principle is the same. If > you subscribe to a procmail or other anti-spam list, where people post > sample email headers, you *WILL* see formail screw up the splits. This > is one area where maildir format reigns supreme. I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but AFAIK, a new message is started when the regexp "^From:" matches, and the header ends when two consecutive new lines (Dos or Unix conventions) match. What's wrong with that? --behdad http://behdad.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rfk-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 05:23:08 2005 From: rfk-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Robert F. Kennedy) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:23:08 -0400 Subject: DNS and cached files In-Reply-To: <20050831161603.GW28567-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20050831161603.GW28567@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <015d01c5ca36$09bd1ac0$1902a8c0@coilnetworks.com> Hello, I recently changed my ISP from Istop to teksavvy and so I had to update my DNS setting with my new static IP. To make my email system more robust I also added a backup MX server with dnsmadeeasy.com. When I did this I set my mail server and the backup server to the same priority number of twenty. I quickly got feedback on my mistake and set my mail server to 10. Most emails go throught now but occasionally some come back with the Postfix "mail loops back to myself" error. Also, checking on my MX settings with dnstuff.com show the old settings. I made the changes more than a week ago, is there a way to speed up the updating of cached files? The server is shambhalatoronto.org. Thanks for any assistance, Robert -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 05:24:26 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:24:26 -0400 Subject: REAL Linux In-Reply-To: <940DE32F-F60C-4E4A-BCDE-BF339457D487-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031338q13d4fe89kb7383a0395764999@mail.gmail.com> <20051003210204.GD7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <99a6c38f0510031508o7572b8d0k711b454c54e61eae@mail.gmail.com> <940DE32F-F60C-4E4A-BCDE-BF339457D487@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510052224s726e87a2j9bba6de6b3e62fe6@mail.gmail.com> > Python is a scripting language. Like many scripting languages, it can > be compiled to bytecode, but it still requires an interpreter to run. :-) I've written a couple interpreters and compilers. Even a bytecode eating virtual machine based partly on those expirements. Found a usenet copy of Jack Crenshaw's "Let's build a compiler!" series a long time ago, it seems. Anyway, had to try it. Never thought to look again until just now, but it's available at http://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/ It's a wonderful read. > I'm wondering if by "bad" you're talking about execution speed. Many > of python's critics point to benchmarks which demonstrate that a > program written in python runs slower than a similar program written > in whatever language they happen to be looking at. > > The limiting factor in the vast majority of computing related > problems is not runtime speed. "Bad" was referring to how much bloat is in the output from the REALbasic compiler. I'd like to look closer at python, I've just never had a lot of time for it. Seeing a presentation on it should be good. > >> I don't think this is at all the kind of thing Linux (or Windows for > >> that matter) needs. > > > > Whether any OS needs it or not, the tool's exist. Either programmers > > can make them useful, or non-programmers will. :S > > You assume that non-programmers have the capacity to make such tools > useful. However, I'd suggest that there are people who simply do not > think in a way that allow them to do anything like programming. > Unless your RAD tool finds a completely new way of either doing or at > least representing the process of computing, it will not enable these > people. No, but often times people (or those who employ them) that are not suited to it, try to make themselves suited. As I think Lennart hinted at earlier, RAD tools have the unfortunate side effect of making people believe they are good at programming. > >> Tools to let non programmers think they can write programs are not > >> that > >> useful in my opinion because they don't make people good programers. > > > > Agreed, though there's nothing but education and experience to make a > > good programmer. Programming concepts are mostly not specific to any > > tool or language though. > > Programming paradigms are often suggested, facilitated or even > enforced by languages. For example, it requires quite a bit of effort > to do object oriented programming in c, however it's almost > impossible to avoid in python. No doubts here about oop c. Win32 was a painful api to work with. It's also impossible to avoid using objects in a RAD environment, hence a several year love affair with Delphi. Then I found perl and linux. lol. One of the things I picked up on when I first started writing in basic... I was 10, and learned the most fundamental component of programming. Boolean logic. The lesson stuck in my head so firmly I couldn't stop and became an addict. All languages have pros and cons, but an aweful lot of "theory" can still be transferred between languages. Flow constructs for example. For's, if's, and thens. Or constructors and exceptions, in object oriented languages. The hardest thing about going from one language to another is just getting used to the new syntax. At least that's been my experience. > >>> The programmer in me definately agrees we don't need any more horrid > >>> code. On the other hand, my advocate side is thinking this is a > >>> good > >>> thing for the desktop. > >> > >> Because desktop users expect crappy applications? > > > > Not really. Because after hearing about linux often enough they'll > > take a look. The more similarities that exist between desktop > > applications (on linux, mac, 'doze) the easier it will be for them to > > migrate from one OS to another. > > > > If I could count the number of times I've had "average" home users > > look at linux, only to watch them fall back to windows because app-x > > doesn't work anything like it does on windows... > > Perhaps that is because windows suites their needs better? Helping > users define and then meet their needs is the only form of advocacy > that makes sense to me. Which is why I originally posted. ;-) Helping users run applications that fit their needs is exactly what I'd like to do. They should be able to use their apps - no matter what OS or platform they're using. REALbasic may offer that, a chance to bring oridinary people a little closer to seeing the value of linux. RB might be a proprietary product, but it can still help people migrate. And I know there are programmers on the list. Some of them may have used VB. Maybe they've got an idea for the desktop. I intend to try it out. If I run up against a desktop app that I need, I can whip it off. (Probably nothing special for a while, but the reason's top secret still. ;-) Others might be able to use it to generate some business might like the cross-platform bit. I dunno. Just thought I'd share. The more sharing, the more people learn. And in the end, somebody down the line might even start using linux, because we shared our thoughts. That sounds a little idealogical and over the top, but that doesn't stop it from being a potential reality. Sharing is the only advocacy that make sense to me. Take care, - Scott. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 05:40:49 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:40:49 -0300 (ADT) Subject: DNS and cached files In-Reply-To: <015d01c5ca36$09bd1ac0$1902a8c0-B7WYQ2cLakwWhyVFc8JwjA@public.gmane.org> References: <015d01c5ca36$09bd1ac0$1902a8c0@coilnetworks.com> Message-ID: Hi Robert, To my knowledge, you can't really speed up updating caches world-wide at the moment. There are improvements to DNS in the works that will make this possible in the future, but from what I know it's not in effect yet. BTW, how's the service with teksavvy? I'm thinking of getting a line. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Robert F. Kennedy wrote: > Hello, > > I recently changed my ISP from Istop to teksavvy and so I had to update > my DNS setting with my new static IP. To make my email system more > robust I also added a backup MX server with dnsmadeeasy.com. When I did > this I set my mail server and the backup server to the same priority > number of twenty. I quickly got feedback on my mistake and set my mail > server to 10. Most emails go throught now but occasionally some come > back with the Postfix "mail loops back to myself" error. Also, checking > on my MX settings with dnstuff.com show the old settings. I made the > changes more than a week ago, is there a way to speed up the updating of > cached files? The server is shambhalatoronto.org. > > Thanks for any assistance, > Robert > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:53:42 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:53:42 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051006025443.GB1448-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:54:43PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > I've recently begun a personal pet project where I need to process a > honking big text file and produce a relatively smaller, but still quite > large text file. I need a *COMPILED* language for that. I need to have > multiple filehandles reading from the same input file. I need to do > string-handling and number-crunching. If..THEN..ELSE, SELECT CASE, and > various looping constructs are required. ocaml has very nice string, list and other type handling, and IS compiled. It runs pretty darn fast too. > I do *NOT* need "abject ornamentation". I do *NOT* need multiple > inheritance that creates an object that's both a tooth paste *AND* a > floor wax. Bill Gates' "Visual Basic" abortion has "embraced and > extended" Basic and given lean/mean compiled Basics an undeserved bad > reputation. The object oriented parts of ocaml are entirely optional addons to caml (a specific version of ml) that you don't need to use. The language woks very well on it's own. The compiler is generating very nice fast binaries, and it has many nice libraries available for use. It's string and list handling makes working in C seem like torture. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:18:58 2005 From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 11:18:58 -0400 Subject: Pro IV Message-ID: <1128611939.9349.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Does anyone have any experience with this language/environment? I have a company that is giving my employer a proposal for a software package that will need some customization in order to tailor it to our processes. Their back end runs on RHE, with a proprietary database for Pro IV. We're a little concerned about using them for the project, as time is our major concern, and none of us had heard of Pro IV before we met with this company. Any comments/recommendations, etc are appreciated. -- Vince Fry vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org www.vincefry.com The box said "Requires Windows 95 or better." So I installed LINUX -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:40:19 2005 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:40:19 -0400 Subject: Hosting Provider Suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <873bnqmsuw.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <17c359fc05092713003ea5943d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A39DE03-B6C4-49B5-9DEC-B1B57C4FF45C@ca.afilias.info> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 27-Sep-05, at 16:25, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 9/27/05, Leigh Honeywell wrote: > >> On 9/27/05, Charles philip Chan wrote: >> >>> Hello all: >>> >>> I would like some recommendations for a cheap, but reliable hosting >>> provider that provides a full LAMP environment. >>> >>> Thank you in advance. >>> >>> Charles >>> >> >> I've been super happy with http://moonbase.info/ for a cPanel hoster. >> > > Interesting; I know them... > > It would be most interesting (in a somewhat unfortunate way :-() if > there was a hiccup this week, as the principal is presently in > Europe... > -- His business partner was here the whole time keeping an eye on things. Way to FUD on a couple of guys who are running a small business in a competitive sector and doing a damn fine job of it. I've recommended moonbase.info on a number of occasions. Everyone I've sent to them has had a good experience. I have no qualms about recommending them in the future. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Data Services Group Manager, Afilias Canada Corp. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRUVjgfzn5SevSpoRAjqDAKCElIEg9DWhVePVsBfBhUTrf0g4wQCcDAmE LVPOv4pyWBe+RjDWSQFDoxk= =xSmJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 22:34:29 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:34:29 -0400 Subject: Can't format a 200GB drive larger that 129GB Message-ID: <4345A675.9020901@alteeve.com> Hi all, For some reason 'fdisk' (and 'parted') only see the new drive in my USB carrier as 129GB (137GB using 1,000,000,000b/gig). Has anyone seen this before? I am running Debian Sarge under a 2.6 kernel so I should expect that 200GB are supported... Thanks all! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 00:37:11 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:37:11 -0400 Subject: DNS and cached files In-Reply-To: <015d01c5ca36$09bd1ac0$1902a8c0-B7WYQ2cLakwWhyVFc8JwjA@public.gmane.org> References: <015d01c5ca36$09bd1ac0$1902a8c0@coilnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4345C337.4090207@georgetown.wehave.net> Robert F. Kennedy wrote: > robust I also added a backup MX server with dnsmadeeasy.com. When I did > this I set my mail server and the backup server to the same priority > number of twenty. I quickly got feedback on my mistake and set my mail > server to 10. Most emails go throught now but occasionally some come Here's what I see: shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 20 mail.shambhalatoronto.org. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 30 mx2.dnsmadeeasy.com. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 40 mx3.dnsmadeeasy.com. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 20 mx1.dnsmadeeasy.com. Since mx1.dnsmadeeasy.com and mail.shambhalatoronto.org still have the same priority you will have trouble. > back with the Postfix "mail loops back to myself" error. Also, checking > on my MX settings with dnstuff.com show the old settings. I made the > changes more than a week ago, is there a way to speed up the updating of > cached files? The server is shambhalatoronto.org. If you *really* changed your MX to priority 10 then probably the step you forgot was to update the serial number in your master zone. If you don't change your master's serial number the slaves will never retrieve the updated zone and roughly 3/8 of the emails to you will loop. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 00:59:17 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 20:59:17 -0400 Subject: Kickstart Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236@mail.gmail.com> I've spent a bunch of this week racing around as if my head'd been lopped off. Been looking at how to build RHL-based kiosks and am just about ready to build my first "automated" installer using kickstart. I'll be testing with VMware (LinuxWorld swag, woot!) later this evening. I unfortunately need to have at least half a dozen machines loaded up as kiosks 3 days ago. I suppose this is relatively straight-forward. If there's anything here that'll b0rk the install process I'd sure appreciate hearing about it. Also, any gotchas about using Kickstart? Anything in particular to watch out for? TIA (btw, this project is meant for business kiosks, not public ones you might see at a mall or library, so I'm taking short cuts the first time through. There are a couple packages not locked down by this ks.cfg snippet - like X handling of ctl-alt-backspace. I just don't have the time to go and find all the trouble spots then how to fix 'em from kickstart just yet. It has been terribly educational though.) -Scott. [-- Snippet Starts --] # Kickstart file for CentOS 4.1based kiosks (gnome/firefox) # %post section, non-chroot # add kiosk user, no password useradd kiosk passwd -d kiosk # import kiosk metacity / gnome configuration # dumpfile created with: gconftool-2 --dump / > kioskgconf sudo kiosk gconftool-2 --load=/mnt/cdrom/kiosks/kiosk.gconf # import media (splash screen, desktop background, and greeter theme) mount /dev/cdrom /mnt/cdrom cp -Rp /mnt/cdrom/kiosks/images /home/kiosk/ tar -zxf /mnt/cdrom/kiosks/GDM-Blueish.tar.gz mv bluish-gdm /usr/share/gdm/themes # install additional rpms (need to check redistribution rights/licenses) # rpm -i /mnt/cdrom/kiosks/AdobeReader_enu-7.0.1-1.i386.rpm # /usr/local/Adobe/Acrobat7.0/Browser/install_browser_plugin -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 01:09:56 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:09:56 -0400 Subject: TUX | The First and Only Magazine for the New Linux User In-Reply-To: <4341F18B.6010102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051004011031.684D712133B@acheron.ss.org> <200510032233.32589.mervc@eol.ca> <4341F18B.6010102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200510062109.56519.mervc@eol.ca> On Monday 03 October 2005 23:05, James Knott wrote: > Now, if only they'd do something about that "Margo Parfait". > -- Don't read the article and you won't be offended. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Kubuntu Linux KDE v. 3.4.2 Desktop Kontact v. 1.1.2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 01:16:53 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:16:53 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051007011653.GA2757@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:58:36AM +0300, Peter wrote: > Basically I have several mail files which contain messages and > duplicates thereof (possibly with different headers). The goal is to end > up with one file containing all the messages, with duplicates pruned. > > In theory formail should be able to split the files into messages and > feed them to something that can uniq them (the criteria for uniq is > identical body, disregarding all headers). > > So far I am using a scheme where formail splits the message, then again > the body and relevant headers, and then I compute a md5sum hash on the > body and refer to the message by that hash as a key. Duplicates end up > with the same key and are rejected after a comparison. I used md5sum > because it is well-tested. I also do a comparison before rejecting a > duplicate. > > The problem is that formail fails to properly split certain files and I > do not know why. I tried to understand the problem but formail > source is un-maintainable imho. Thus I am trying to work around it using > my own matcher. That's where the regexp question came in. > > The question was, whether someone tried to use the regexp C library to > match and then split whole messages, possibly 5+MB in size. I think that > it can be done, if the Content-length: header is ignored, but I don't > know, so I ask. If it is possible, then it may save me some work with a > 'proper' parser that matches the header start, the header end/body start > and the file end/next message start. If Formail is failing, then I doubt regex(3) would help. Find out why it's failing. For manual regex solution, try csplit inbox '/^From /' '{*}' which will split mbox emails into each file. Or, if you are bored, you can try my extended Bash shell, all=`< inbox` set -- "${all|,$'\nFrom '}" Here, messages are now $1, $2, etc. All emails are missing 'From ', except for the first email. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 03:06:08 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:06:08 -0400 Subject: Pro IV In-Reply-To: <1128611939.9349.5.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <1128611939.9349.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 10/6/05, Vince Fry wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with this language/environment? I have a > company that is giving my employer a proposal for a software package > that will need some customization in order to tailor it to our > processes. Their back end runs on RHE, with a proprietary database for > Pro IV. > > We're a little concerned about using them for the project, as time is > our major concern, and none of us had heard of Pro IV before we met with > this company. > > Any comments/recommendations, etc are appreciated. It evidently dates back to the 1970s, according to the vendor's web site... The fact that it hasn't taken the world by storm after having 30 years to do so doesn't encourage me that there is anything to alleviate your concerns... If the database is proprietary, that means you are shackling yourself to the vendor, which pretty much discards the benefits you might have imagined you'd get from running on an "open" platform like Linux... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 00:35:00 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 06 Oct 2005 20:35:00 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <873bne17wr.fsf@buug.org> Behdad> I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but AFAIK, a new message is Behdad> started when the regexp "^From:" matches, and the header ends Behdad> when two consecutive new lines (Dos or Unix conventions) match. Behdad> What's wrong with that? It's "^From " , without the colon. These lines are, at least technically speaking, _not_ part of the header; they are added during delivery, reflecting the "envelope" return address (ie. the information from SMTP protocol), which can be entirely different from the contents of the From: header. This mechanism makes it necessary to escape occurences of this pattern within the message body; the usual convention is to change a leading "From " into ">From ". My guess is it's this escaping (and reverting it for final human consumption) that can be hard to get right in code and a source of possible subtle bugs, though in my experience formail is solid as a rock. The format certainly does leave a bad case of kludge aftertaste; I agree that Maildirs are much cleaner. But you need a filesystem that can handle the gobs of files in a single directory for Maildirs. -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 00:40:01 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 06 Oct 2005 20:40:01 -0400 Subject: Can't format a 200GB drive larger that 129GB In-Reply-To: <4345A675.9020901-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4345A675.9020901@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <87y856yxb2.fsf@buug.org> Madison> Hi all, For some reason 'fdisk' (and 'parted') only see the new Madison> drive in my USB carrier as 129GB (137GB using Madison> 1,000,000,000b/gig). Has anyone seen this before? I am running Madison> Debian Sarge under a 2.6 kernel so I should expect that 200GB Madison> are supported... Have you tried to wipe out the MBR and start from scratch (for example, with install-mbr)? -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 04:11:23 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kickstart In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > I suppose this is relatively straight-forward. If there's anything > here that'll b0rk the install process I'd sure appreciate hearing > about it. Also, any gotchas about using Kickstart? Anything in > particular to watch out for? TIA I've setup Kickstart and also Jumpstart (Solaris) a few times. I can't think of any one that will jump out and bite you from behind a tree. I would say setting these sorts of things up is not hard but it can be involved. This is particularly true when you get into things pxe, tftp (some versions chroot, others don't) and bootparamd (if you need it). > (btw, this project is meant for business kiosks, not public ones you > might see at a mall or library, so I'm taking short cuts the first > time through. There are a couple packages not locked down by this > ks.cfg snippet - like X handling of ctl-alt-backspace. I just don't If you're using a display manager than a ctrl-alt-bksp should just restart the display manager and throw the user back to a graphical login prompt (or back into a session if this is how it has been configured). This is a good thing IMHO. It gives the user a way out if the X session gets very b0rked (short of X skewing the video registers). Remember too the X server can crash on its own so you really want it to restart and bring the display manager back up regardless of how it is killed. > have the time to go and find all the trouble spots then how to fix 'em > from kickstart just yet. It has been terribly educational though.) Choosing a window manager which lets you lock everything down and then proceeding to do so is a good plan. You could go for chroots, virtual boxes, etc, if you were really paranoid about the environment. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 05:12:23 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:12:23 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051006145342.GQ7966-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:53:42AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > The object oriented parts of ocaml are entirely optional addons to > caml (a specific version of ml) that you don't need to use. The > language woks very well on it's own. The compiler is generating very > nice fast binaries, and it has many nice libraries available for use. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Your description also fits FreeBasic. It looks like a tossup for a newbie who hasn't programmed at all. For someone who is reasonably familiar with QBASIC or QuickBasic, FreeBasic is an easy upgrade path rather than learning a new language. That was the deciding point for me. > It's string and list handling makes working in C seem like torture. Working in C makes working in C seem like torture. I tried. It's string primitives are... primitive... beyond belief. Any language where you risk buffer overflow simply reading or concatenating strings is b at dly b0rk3n. Don't get me wrong; for programming to the bare metal, such as is required for writing an OS or a driver, C walks all over cpu-specific assembler, and is almost 100% portable between architectures. It's supreme in that area, but it sucks at scientific or text-processing applications. "Horses for courses", etc. For people not part of the scene it may be hard to believe, but there is a thriving QBASIC/QuickBasic-based community. It's not a nostalgia scene like Commodore or Apple ][ communities. Video games are being written in FreeBasic (and other QBASIC-like languages) today. Sites like http://www.qbasicnews.com/ and http://forum.qbasicnews.com/ (where FreeBasic has it's own sub-forum) are all over if you look. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 05:13:27 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:13:27 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051007051327.GC4077@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 11:28:27PM -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote > I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but AFAIK, a new message is > started when the regexp "^From:" matches, and the header ends > when two consecutive new lines (Dos or Unix conventions) match. > What's wrong with that? In ordinary emails, probably nothing. With maildir, I don't see the "^From " (*NOT* "^From:" as in your message). The rule there is that the headers begin at line 1, and end with the first set of two consecutive "newlines". But what happens when you're on a procmail or anti-spam mailing-list where people deliberately (and properly, I might add) post sample headers that match your criteria for a new message??? For working with procmail when being passed one message at a time (e.g. POP or fetchmail or analyzing multiple maildir format messages) the way to avoid problems is to specify a ridiculously high number with formail's "-m" parameter. I.e. you avoid false splits by effectively telling formail not to split out messages, regardless of what it sees. As I said, that works fine when you *KNOW* that you're working with *ONLY ONE MESSAGE*. The mbox format problem is that *ALL* the messages are kept in one humoungous file. formail *MUST* attempt to split them apart using heuristics. If someone plunks a set of valid sample headers into the body of message without quoting the headers, that will cause formail to think it sees a new message. The message that I was replying to talked about problems splitting out messages, and that implies mbox format. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rfk-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 05:30:54 2005 From: rfk-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Robert F. Kennedy) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:30:54 -0400 Subject: DNS and cached files In-Reply-To: <4345C337.4090207-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4345C337.4090207@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <20051007053059.42E054A9EE@barracuda.teksavvy.com> Hi Fraser and Tony, Fraser that was my mistake exactly - it had been so long that I had worked on a db.domain file that I had completely forgotten that very important detail - update the serial number. Thank you. Tony, My service with Teksavvy is coming in around 2200Kb these days but I've had problems during peak times but I think this is a line issue. They have been very professional and fast administering my setup and when I call their tech support, a real person answers the phone and quickly. That was my main beef with Cybersurf - I was on my own (half-hour waits on the phone, call disconnects etc.) I switched to Teksavvy after I read someone's recommendation from this list. Thanks, Robert -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Fraser Campbell Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:37 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: DNS and cached files Robert F. Kennedy wrote: > robust I also added a backup MX server with dnsmadeeasy.com. When I did > this I set my mail server and the backup server to the same priority > number of twenty. I quickly got feedback on my mistake and set my mail > server to 10. Most emails go throught now but occasionally some come Here's what I see: shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 20 mail.shambhalatoronto.org. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 30 mx2.dnsmadeeasy.com. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 40 mx3.dnsmadeeasy.com. shambhalatoronto.org mail is handled by 20 mx1.dnsmadeeasy.com. Since mx1.dnsmadeeasy.com and mail.shambhalatoronto.org still have the same priority you will have trouble. > back with the Postfix "mail loops back to myself" error. Also, checking > on my MX settings with dnstuff.com show the old settings. I made the > changes more than a week ago, is there a way to speed up the updating of > cached files? The server is shambhalatoronto.org. If you *really* changed your MX to priority 10 then probably the step you forgot was to update the serial number in your master zone. If you don't change your master's serial number the slaves will never retrieve the updated zone and roughly 3/8 of the emails to you will loop. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 05:52:11 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:52:11 -0300 (ADT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051007051327.GC4077-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <20051007051327.GC4077@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: For the maildir format, it is illegal to have "^From " anywhere in the body of the message (or even the header). The program that creates the maildir file, appends a 'From blah blah' line to each message, and ensure that no such line appears anywhere in the message. If such a line appears, then it is suffixed by '>'. At least this is how it's done on the system I checked. To ensure that my mail client doesn't do all the conversion, I sent an email using telnet to port 25, included 'From blah' line in the header and in the body. Both were suffixed by '>' when I opened the maildir file (using less). Further, the 'From blah' in the header was moved to become the first line of the body. I think it is because a header must not contain spaces before ':' (along with other restrictions). In short, if you're dealing with a (valid, non-corrupted) maildir file, then it is safe to use '^From ' as a message delimiter. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 11:28:27PM -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote > > > I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but AFAIK, a new message is > > started when the regexp "^From:" matches, and the header ends > > when two consecutive new lines (Dos or Unix conventions) match. > > What's wrong with that? > > In ordinary emails, probably nothing. With maildir, I don't see the > "^From " (*NOT* "^From:" as in your message). The rule there is that > the headers begin at line 1, and end with the first set of two > consecutive "newlines". > > But what happens when you're on a procmail or anti-spam mailing-list > where people deliberately (and properly, I might add) post sample > headers that match your criteria for a new message??? For working with > procmail when being passed one message at a time (e.g. POP or fetchmail > or analyzing multiple maildir format messages) the way to avoid problems > is to specify a ridiculously high number with formail's "-m" parameter. > I.e. you avoid false splits by effectively telling formail not to split > out messages, regardless of what it sees. > > As I said, that works fine when you *KNOW* that you're working with > *ONLY ONE MESSAGE*. The mbox format problem is that *ALL* the messages > are kept in one humoungous file. formail *MUST* attempt to split them > apart using heuristics. If someone plunks a set of valid sample headers > into the body of message without quoting the headers, that will cause > formail to think it sees a new message. > > The message that I was replying to talked about problems splitting out > messages, and that implies mbox format. > > -- > Walter Dnes > An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will > eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, > and has a lower TCO, than linux. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 12:46:32 2005 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: regexp matching question Message-ID: <200510071246.j97CkWLs090761@localhost.generalconcepts.com> | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh | | In short, if you're dealing with a (valid, non-corrupted) maildir file, | then it is safe to use '^From ' as a message delimiter. If you're dealing with a maildir file, wouldn't it be simpler to use the end of the file as the message delimiter? (Maildir format is one message per file.) Perhaps you were thinking of the "mbox" format that is typically used in places like /var/spool/mail/userid? "mbox" uses "^From " as the message delimiter. (FreeBSD has an mbox(5) man page.) (I had always thought the delimiter was "\n\nFrom " but apparently I'm incorrect.) John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 13:50:05 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <873bne17wr.fsf-4SqnbbNSRR0@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <873bne17wr.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > > Behdad> I'm not sure what you exactly mean, but AFAIK, a new message is > Behdad> started when the regexp "^From:" matches, and the header ends > Behdad> when two consecutive new lines (Dos or Unix conventions) match. > Behdad> What's wrong with that? > > It's "^From " , without the colon. These lines are, at least technically > speaking, _not_ part of the header; they are added during delivery, > reflecting the "envelope" return address (ie. the information > from SMTP protocol), which can be entirely different from the contents > of the From: header. > > This mechanism makes it necessary to escape occurences of this pattern > within the message body; the usual convention is to change a leading "From " > into ">From ". My guess is it's this escaping (and reverting it for > final human consumption) that can be hard to get right in code and a > source of possible subtle bugs, though in my experience formail is solid > as a rock. In fact many clients don't revert it back for viewing. I see ">From" at the beginning of the line all the time in my mailbox. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 14:20:56 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:20:56 -0400 Subject: Can't format a 200GB drive larger that 129GB In-Reply-To: <87y856yxb2.fsf-4SqnbbNSRR0@public.gmane.org> References: <4345A675.9020901@alteeve.com> <87y856yxb2.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <43468448.3010408@alteeve.com> Ian Zimmerman wrote: > Madison> Hi all, For some reason 'fdisk' (and 'parted') only see the new > Madison> drive in my USB carrier as 129GB (137GB using > Madison> 1,000,000,000b/gig). Has anyone seen this before? I am running > Madison> Debian Sarge under a 2.6 kernel so I should expect that 200GB > Madison> are supported... > > Have you tried to wipe out the MBR and start from scratch (for example, > with install-mbr)? > Hmm, I don't have (and can't find) tue 'install-bmr' program. At any rate, It is looking like it's a 48-bit addressing limit on the IDE to USB2 controller (an undocumented one). I got my hand on another 250GB USB2 drive and it came up just fine. *sigh* Thanks though for replying! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 15:57:07 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:57:07 -0300 (ADT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <200510071246.j97CkWLs090761-bi+AKbBUZKYsbE7Vo+MiNSGuMlDgniV8mpATvIKMPHk@public.gmane.org> References: <200510071246.j97CkWLs090761@localhost.generalconcepts.com> Message-ID: Yes, mbox. Thanks. TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, John Sellens wrote: > | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh > | > | In short, if you're dealing with a (valid, non-corrupted) maildir file, > | then it is safe to use '^From ' as a message delimiter. > > If you're dealing with a maildir file, wouldn't it be simpler to > use the end of the file as the message delimiter? (Maildir format > is one message per file.) > > Perhaps you were thinking of the "mbox" format that is typically > used in places like /var/spool/mail/userid? "mbox" uses "^From " > as the message delimiter. (FreeBSD has an mbox(5) man page.) > (I had always thought the delimiter was "\n\nFrom " but apparently > I'm incorrect.) > > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 21:54:07 2005 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: <20051007051223.GB4077-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > Working in C makes working in C seem like torture. I tried. It's > string primitives are... primitive... beyond belief. Any language where > you risk buffer overflow simply reading or concatenating strings is > b at dly b0rk3n. Don't get me wrong; for programming to the bare metal, > such as is required for writing an OS or a driver, C walks all over > cpu-specific assembler, and is almost 100% portable between > architectures. It's supreme in that area, but it sucks at scientific or > text-processing applications. "Horses for courses", etc. If you find there's a task that's difficult in C you can probably find a library to make it easier. People writing text-processing applications aren't sticking to the string primitives. There's also the speed issue: people writing scientific applications may want as much speed as possible for massive number-crunching. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 02:23:44 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:23:44 -0400 Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 05:54:07PM -0400, John Vetterli wrote > If you find there's a task that's difficult in C you can probably > find a library to make it easier. People writing text-processing > applications aren't sticking to the string primitives. FreeBasic is written in C. So I technically am using a C library when I use FreeBasic. Does that make you happy? > There's also the speed issue: people writing scientific applications > may want as much speed as possible for massive number-crunching. The original mainframe-based BASICs, and MS's GWBASIC and QBASIC were interpreted byte-code, and accordingly slow. FreeBasic is a compiled C program. It has the speed of a compiled C program. Look, I'm not attacking C. It was designed as a system implementation language for unix. It does what it was designed to do, and does it very well. Trying to use it beyond its intended purpose is where you run into problems. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 02:29:56 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:29:56 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051006025414.GA1448-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051008022956.GB6001@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:54:14PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote > The problem is that there are no "out-of-band" separaters in an mbox > file. There are certain header-pattern conventions which imply a > separator. You can run into situations where the text of an email > message contains what looks like headers/separators, even to the most > sophisticated matching algorithm. It can be hard to separate email body > From headers. It's not quite as bad as Microsoft's Look Ma. No prefixing in maildir, and it works OK for me. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 02:34:39 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:34:39 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <873bne17wr.fsf-4SqnbbNSRR0@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <873bne17wr.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <20051008023439.GC6001@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 08:35:00PM -0400, Ian Zimmerman wrote > The format certainly does leave a bad case of kludge aftertaste; > I agree that Maildirs are much cleaner. But you need a filesystem > that can handle the gobs of files in a single directory for Maildirs. [m3000][waltdnes][~] grep sda /etc/fstab /dev/sda1 / reiserfs noatime,notail 0 1 /dev/sda5 none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sda6 /home reiserfs noatime,notail 0 1 -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 02:58:49 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Oct 2005 22:58:49 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051007051223.GB4077-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <87mzlkaf4m.fsf@buug.org> Lennart> It's string and list handling makes working in C seem like torture. Walter> Working in C makes working in C seem like torture. I tried. Walter> It's string primitives are... primitive... beyond belief. Any Walter> language where you risk buffer overflow simply reading or Walter> concatenating strings is b at dly b0rk3n. Don't get me wrong; for Walter> programming to the bare metal, such as is required for writing Walter> an OS or a driver, C walks all over cpu-specific assembler, and Walter> is almost 100% portable between architectures. It's supreme in Walter> that area, but it sucks at scientific or text-processing Walter> applications. "Horses for courses", etc. One thing: have you looked at the "new" C (C99)? It is quite a bit more convenient, just by adding very few well thought out features. The main winner is variable length arrays which makes it possible what used to be done with alloca() but portably and cleanly, and avoid a lot of dynamic allocations. I think a lot of the torturous feeling writing C comes from the standard library, rather than from the language. Some of the POSIX API is as botched as anything M$ have come up with. -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 04:48:15 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 00:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: <20051008022344.GA6001-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 05:54:07PM -0400, John Vetterli wrote > > > If you find there's a task that's difficult in C you can probably > > find a library to make it easier. People writing text-processing > > applications aren't sticking to the string primitives. > > FreeBasic is written in C. So I technically am using a C library when > I use FreeBasic. Does that make you happy? Not really. FreeBasic is a C application, not library. It does contain a runtime library too, but you are not using it directly, the compiler is generating code that uses that library. > Look, I'm not attacking C. It was designed as a system implementation > language for unix. It does what it was designed to do, and does it very > well. Trying to use it beyond its intended purpose is where you run > into problems. If you find yourself arguing about how C is not suitable for some task, then you probably don't have a complete set of languages in your toolbox. These days C and Python do all you need for regular application development (not huge applications, not web applications). When you know Python for example, you never argue that C is not suitable for text processing, you simply use Python. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 12:51:19 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 15:51:19 +0300 (IDT) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051008022956.GB6001-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <20051008022956.GB6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: >> From headers. It's not quite as bad as Microsoft's > > Look Ma. No prefixing in maildir, and it works OK for me. You are not going to like this but I made progess with my customized formail replacement: a) there are mail messages with 990+ character long lines. All invariably generated by microshit email tools (and I do not mean spam) b) there are attempted exploits (buffer or stack overrun) which can confuse pattern matchers which use small buffers. I used huge (and I mean huge) buffers. c) formail tries hard to cope with these problems but some make it crash as I can see. By crashing I mean it is unable to match the pattern properly and misses messages. d) escaped or unescaped From headers do cause problems especially when they are fed unquoted into a mailbox by clueless scripts and other tools. Not otherwise. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 13:39:31 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:39:31 +0300 (IDT) Subject: more regexp: sed trouble ? Message-ID: My sed copy seems not to want to work in multi-line mode. Any ideas ? plp at plp$ sed --version GNU sed version 4.0.9 Copyright (C) 2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, to the extent permitted by law. plp at plp$ echo -e "a\n\n\nb"|sed -re 's/\n\n/yes/g' a b plp at plp$ echo -e "a\na"|sed -re '/.*/Ml' a$ a a$ a ----- HUH ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 15:03:39 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:03:39 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051006025443.GB1448-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 10/5/05, Walter Dnes wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:53:05AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > I really don't think I miss BASIC at all. Nope quite sure. :) > > > > Why use BASIC when many much nicer languages with saner syntax exist > > like OCAML, Python, etc. > > I've recently begun a personal pet project where I need to process a > honking big text file and produce a relatively smaller, but still quite > large text file. I need a *COMPILED* language for that. I need to have > multiple filehandles reading from the same input file. I need to do > string-handling and number-crunching. If..THEN..ELSE, SELECT CASE, and > various looping constructs are required. Hi Walter, I don't know if I'm suggesting something that's already been burnt to a crisp, but either awk or Perl will give you great speed for processing honking big text files, even using multiple file handles. Perl (with which I have some experience) can be used without object orientation and multiple inheritance. You can use it strictly (heh) as a command line utility; no vast GUI to deal with. I have successfully used Perl with multi-gigabyte files; it's an industrial strength solution. Only if speed is absolutely the highest priority should you need to go to hand optimized C code .. and I have lots of experience with C as well, it's lightning fast but can be slow to develop. Perl is almost as fast, but very quick to develop. Alex I do *NOT* need "abject ornamentation". I do *NOT* need multiple > inheritance that creates an object that's both a tooth paste *AND* a > floor wax. Bill Gates' "Visual Basic" abortion has "embraced and > extended" Basic and given lean/mean compiled Basics an undeserved bad > reputation. > > -- > Walter Dnes > An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will > eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, > and has a lower TCO, than linux. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 16:26:29 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:26:29 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 10/8/05, Alex Beamish wrote: > I have successfully used Perl with multi-gigabyte files; it's an industrial > strength solution. Only if speed is absolutely the highest priority should > you need to go to hand optimized C code .. and I have lots of experience > with C as well, it's lightning fast but can be slow to develop. Perl is > almost as fast, but very quick to develop. Reality tends to be that you can harness the [string libraries / regexp libraries / other collection abstractions ] in other languages and get comparable or better results than you'd get out of C. String manipulation, for instance, is so painful to do in C that you don't do sophisticated things with strings. Allocating memory is similarly painful, meaning that you only do dynamic allocation if you *REALLY* need to because of the complexity and painfulness of debugging that results. In contrast, consider that Perl has *highly tuned* libraries for processing strings, regexes, and such, and allocating memory for data structures doesn't require much thought. It makes it entirely possible that a Perl program where the major processing is actually done by the regex portions might be FASTER than a hand-written C alternative that doesn't harness as sophisticated a "string engine." In practice, programs written in pretty well any language can pretty easily saturate a 10 Base T link if you're talking to a web server and doing "computational things." (Database access changes the story somewhat.) It is not all that often where it is worthwhile doing the optimizations that require resorting to [C|Assembly Language]; for any of the higher level languages where significant optimization effort has been done, such as Perl, Python, Scheme, Lisp, and such, the *performance* benefits from using C are quite likely to be limited. It is quite often likely for small tasks that "optimizing" by writing in C (or C++) represents a premature optimization. If you can more quickly jot an algorithm up in [Pick Dynamic Language of Choice], you can figure out what is important to fix up ALGORITHM-wise if you have to rewrite it in C. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 18:16:02 2005 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:16:02 -0400 Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list Message-ID: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Hi, I'm working on a project right now that requires me to send out "daily prompts" to a set of participants. My preference is to send the emails via mailman so that I've got all the subscriber management tools; however, I'm pretty sure that mailman won't let me set a month's worth of messages and then set the dates that the emails are sent out on. I can write a little shell script to have a message sent to mailman at specified times/dates but I'd like to have a nice little GUI interface to add/edit the messages. Before I go ahead and write my own, does anyone know if something like this already exists? regards, emma -- Emma Jane Hogbin www.xtrinsic.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 18:57:21 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:57:21 -0400 Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> References: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Message-ID: <20051008185721.GA2633@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 02:16:02PM -0400, Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > Hi, > > I'm working on a project right now that requires me to send out "daily > prompts" to a set of participants. My preference is to send the emails via > mailman so that I've got all the subscriber management tools; however, I'm pretty > sure that mailman won't let me set a month's worth of messages and then > set the dates that the emails are sent out on. I can write a little shell > script to have a message sent to mailman at specified times/dates but I'd > like to have a nice little GUI interface to add/edit the messages. Before > I go ahead and write my own, does anyone know if something like this > already exists? Not that I know of. At first reading, 'crontab' comes to mind. But, you want interactive GUI, which rules out 'crontab' because you have to be "present" to click this and that. My suggestion is to do the GUI first, and save the final messages to YYYY-MM-DD directories, like 2005-10-08 2005-10-09 ... Then, send out the emails with crontab. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 21:10:58 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:10:58 +0300 (IDT) Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> References: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Message-ID: I dealt with this via shell script. You may also want to look at gcal(1) which allows you to set up a whole calendar of dates and tcal(1) which allows you to run things sheduled in the future (such as sending a warning x days before something is going to be celebrated). The output of gcal need not go to a terminal, it can be piped into a script that emails the relevant file or whatever, plus running gcal from cron will automatically email you the output, plus gcal has an exec option (see below). Just put gcal in a cron job and make up your own calendar of important events. (hint: gcal in cron will send you email and your email account/procmail can act as list distributor - or subscribe the address whence gcal/crontab runs to the relevant mailing list - i.e. create the ml user and run gcal from his crontab - depending on what you want to generate you may want to mark up the mail using m4 or such, not that gcal is missing on options). I have a similar setup to remind me of birthdays and so on. I get mail once a day about important dates etc. plus the normal holidays. The interesting option set for gcal is 'gcal -m -f myevents.gcal' and for you likely --execute-command. The file has a very simple syntax. E.g.: YYYYMMDD text special (see manual) 00000101 Someone born on 1970.01.01%i19700101 ... gcal doc is in 'info gcal' (the manpage is a joke). Making a template to edit the myevents.gcal in tcl/tk should be easy. You are going to like the info ;-) (there is a reason for my posting the relevant part here). (hint: gcal cannot be used to boil coffee. But it already knows how to do almost everything else, I think). hope this helps, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 22:19:17 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <20051008022956.GB6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051008221917.GA14222@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 03:51:19PM +0300, Peter wrote > > Look Ma. No prefixing in maildir, and it works OK for me. > > You are not going to like this but I made progess with my customized > formail replacement: What's not to like? I agree that formail runs into trouble occasionally, and a more specialized tool can do a better job in a specific area. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 23:10:35 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:10:35 +0200 (IST) Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: <20051008221917.GA14222-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <20051008022956.GB6001@waltdnes.org> <20051008221917.GA14222@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: >> You are not going to like this but I made progess with my customized >> formail replacement: > > What's not to like? I agree that formail runs into trouble > occasionally, and a more specialized tool can do a better job in a > specific area. We agree then. Could you please tell if the sed example works in your sed version ? echo -e "a\na"|sed -e '/\n/M s/.\+/yes/g' fails here. Thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 9 00:08:32 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:08:32 -0400 Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> References: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Message-ID: On 10/8/05, Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > I'm working on a project right now that requires me to send out "daily > prompts" to a set of participants. My preference is to send the emails via > mailman so that I've got all the subscriber management tools; however, I'm pretty > sure that mailman won't let me set a month's worth of messages and then > set the dates that the emails are sent out on. I can write a little shell > script to have a message sent to mailman at specified times/dates but I'd > like to have a nice little GUI interface to add/edit the messages. Before > I go ahead and write my own, does anyone know if something like this > already exists? At "first blush," this sounds like a perfect task for cron. Alas, no *direct* GUI for that :-(. At "second blush," this sounds like "pgjob" . The idea of that is to define a schema and some tools for constructing something akin to cron that stores jobs as a set of database tuples. There are several merits of that approach, over "traditional cron": 1. You can define more sophisticated semantics as to when jobs should execute, as well as to seqencing of jobs. 2. Sticking it in a database eliminates the need for Yet Another Language Parser for yet another file format 3. You can do more extensive logging of the results than cron does, and perhaps even allow jobs to point to one another 4. Using a DBMS for storage means that it's already multiuser capable, and it is easy to allow additional processes to, in an automated fashion, read and write job information The result of this might simply be that you have a daemon and/or cron job that wakes up once every minute or so to check what jobs need to be run, and that "controller" job might be a gratifyingly simple shell script... A third approach that comes to mind is to Use Another Existing Scheme, namely that of cfengine. It has a way of defining timeframes when events should be invoked. For instance... A rule might look thus: (Hr01|Hr03|Hr07)::(Min00_05|Min05_10)::(Monday|Tuesday):: "/home/cbbrowne/scripts/something_to_run_at_137_00-10_onMonAndTues.sh" Unfortunately, I think what this would require is that you start by defining the DB schema and then have a process that builds the cfengine script. Modifications would have to take place in the database, not by hacking the script... In any case, the "magic" in all of these cases is in building that "nice little GUI interface." If someone were to build a decent DBMS-based scheduler, people would come... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 9 12:55:32 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 09 Oct 2005 08:55:32 -0400 Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Message-ID: <87oe5yetob.fsf@buug.org> Christopher> At "first blush," this sounds like a perfect task for cron. Christopher> Alas, no *direct* GUI for that :-(. What about webmin/usermin? -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 9 16:15:49 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:15:49 -0400 Subject: time-delayed emails to a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> References: <20051008181602.GM4566@smeagol> Message-ID: <200510091215.49352.mervc@eol.ca> On Saturday 08 October 2005 14:16, Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > Hi, > > I'm working on a project right now that requires me to send out "daily > prompts" to a set of participants. My preference is to send the emails > via mailman so that I've got all the subscriber management tools; > however, I'm pretty sure that mailman won't let me set a month's worth of > messages and then set the dates that the emails are sent out on. I can > write a little shell script to have a message sent to mailman at > specified times/dates but I'd like to have a nice little GUI interface to > add/edit the messages. Before I go ahead and write my own, does anyone > know if something like this already exists? > If you are using KDE then Kcron will schedule your dates and times but you will have to come up with a script that it can run in order to to send the correct messages to the correct places. And even if it doesn't do this job, it is a tool I use regularly for cron tasks. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Kubuntu Linux KDE v. 3.4.2 Desktop Kontact v. 1.1.2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 00:42:51 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:42:51 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please Message-ID: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> I've a week off and I'm looking to take a crack at learning how to program in Python. Here's a list of the places I've bookmarked: http://www.python.org/doc/ and more specifically http://wiki.python.org/moin/ http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide http://www.python.org/doc/Intros.html http://www.python.org/topics/ I'm looking for additional resources (links, names of books, whatever...) that you think may help me out. I'm a hobby programmer using mostly BASIC(s) and some Java. I know procedural programming and I know what encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphism are but I have very little experience in using them as I've written just a few Java programs (i.e., I guess I could use a primer in OO programming). Any ideas? paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 01:21:15 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:21:15 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: <4349B90B.9050405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051010012115.GA3028@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 08:42:51PM -0400, Paul DiRezze wrote: > I've a week off and I'm looking to take a crack at learning how to > program in Python. Here's a list of the places I've bookmarked: > > http://www.python.org/doc/ Forget Wiki. Get the official tutorial in the official doc. Practice on your machine. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 03:13:32 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:13:32 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: <4349B90B.9050405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/9/05, Paul DiRezze wrote: > I'm looking for additional resources (links, names of books, > whatever...) that you think may help me out. I'd suggest that you take some programs you have already written in other languages and see about reimplementing them in Python. This can give you a feel for how comfortable you are with, in effect, the "edges" that you generally happen to use. If your favorite shell/Perl/Java script uses regexes extensively, this forces you to figure out comparable ways of doing things. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 12:22:59 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:22:59 -0400 Subject: Linux stars in MS movie Message-ID: <434A5D23.8030906@rogers.com> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 19:21:39 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:21:39 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: <4349B90B.9050405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> Message-ID: <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/05, Paul DiRezze wrote: > I've a week off and I'm looking to take a crack at learning how to > program in Python. Here's a list of the places I've bookmarked: > > http://www.python.org/doc/ > and more specifically > http://wiki.python.org/moin/ > http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide > http://www.python.org/doc/Intros.html > http://www.python.org/topics/ > > I'm looking for additional resources (links, names of books, > whatever...) that you think may help me out. > > I'm a hobby programmer using mostly BASIC(s) and some Java. I know > procedural programming and I know what encapsulation, inheritance and > polymorphism are but I have very little experience in using them as I've > written just a few Java programs (i.e., I guess I could use a primer in > OO programming). > > Any ideas? > > paul Have a gander at http://diveintopython.org . There's also an informal Python study / hack session at Linuxcaffe every Wednesday evening. -Leigh -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 19:27:20 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:27:20 -0400 Subject: Linux stars in MS movie References: <434A5D23.8030906@rogers.com> Message-ID: <002301c5cdd0$b4239690$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Knott" To: "tlug" Sent: Monday, 10 October, 2005 8:22 Subject: [TLUG]: Linux stars in MS movie > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml There are some things M$ cannot avoid or fight! UNIX technology for animation has been around for a long time, I don't think anyone would even think of using M$ Server for that kind of application. Fran?ois Ouellette "I can easily be satisfied with the very best". -- Winston Churchill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 22:55:16 2005 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Leigh Honeywell wrote: > ... There's also an informal > Python study / hack session at Linuxcaffe every Wednesday evening. This sounds interesting. Any info on time? newbies welcome? JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 23:05:30 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:05:30 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434AF3BA.7030804@rogers.com> After reading the title, I thought that maybe there was a Monty Python week on TV soon. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 02:18:50 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:18:50 -0400 Subject: [ANN] wiki lockdown In-Reply-To: References: <1e55af990510031122o3dda909cr9f433efc6a4b68da@mail.gmail.com> <200510032138.53561.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510032005i5e2d4333v20fde226b2d8a502@mail.gmail.com> <200510040002.24450.troworld@gmail.com> <1e55af990510040613w6353fab4y287ad17daf298a96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990510101918q4fae5ff6k734cc84ccc41f8ee@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > So here's a strange idea. > Could you use the mediawiki RSS feed feature, email the rss changes to an > email account running some spam filter. Then if the filter alerts, use that > as a basis to revert the wiki edit? I have no idea why this message didn't get sent.. heh I wouldn't know where to begin. I don't think anyone's looked at it from that angle. One of the concerns is that administrators don't like the pages to even exist in the history of a page.. they want to ban the edit from ever saving in the first place, instead of playing catchup by reverting. Curiously, chongqed.org has a bot which goes out and tidies up people's wikis using a "good bot".. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 04:18:42 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:18:42 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: <434AF3BA.7030804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0@mail.gmail.com> <434AF3BA.7030804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <434B3D22.2050308@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: >After reading the title, I thought that maybe there was a Monty Python >week on TV soon. ;-) > > I wish. Ten for that, you must be mad! paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 18:29:12 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:29:12 +0000 Subject: Local trade zone at cheapersafer.com Message-ID: <434C0478.7030800@cheapersafer.com> I decided to add a classified ad section to my business site, so that I could advertise components I want to sell and advertise for things I want. It occurred to me that it would be a good thing to have a buy and sell area for geeks and freelancers in the GTA, so I'm inviting people on the list to check it out at http://www.cheapersafer.net/ads/ Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 20:36:15 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: <20051008022344.GA6001-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | The original mainframe-based BASICs, and MS's GWBASIC and QBASIC were | interpreted byte-code, and accordingly slow. Amazingly enough, the original BASIC (at Dartmouth College) was an incremental compiler. Each line was separately compiled, as it was entered, to machine code! I think that that is the reason for the odd (crude) variable naming rules -- all variables existed (26 x 11 numeric variables were possible). PS: I played with a later version of that BASIC implementation in 1967. Mind you, I had no idea about compilers until perhaps year later. What I was impressed with was time sharing (using a Teletype terminal). Previously, I had mostly done batch computing with turn-around measured in months. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 21:10:49 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In defense of BASIC In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <50934.207.188.67.74.1129065049.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> At Durham College in about 1970 I used a PDP-8S, which was a 12 bit *serial* machine, so everything that went through the ALU went through one bit at a time. Amazingly, this thing supported 4 (four) teletypes, timesharing the DEC version of BASIC, something called FOCAL. It was extremely slow when all four terminals were in use, but it did work. It also had a hard disk drive, the diameter of which was measured in feet and made a sound like a washing machine on the spin cycle. Capacity in 100's of kilobytes! I also wrote in Commodore BASIC what is probably the world's slowest multitasking operating system, to turn the lighting and sound audiovisual system for the ROM Bat Cave. The context switch time was measured in fractions of a second. It worked beautifully, but the ROM turned it off because it made the exhibit 'too popular'. Those BASIC dialects were useful and we had to work with them because they were the only game in town at the time, but I'd never use them in preference to a modern programming language. Peter > | From: Walter Dnes > > | The original mainframe-based BASICs, and MS's GWBASIC and QBASIC were > | interpreted byte-code, and accordingly slow. > > Amazingly enough, the original BASIC (at Dartmouth College) was an > incremental compiler. Each line was separately compiled, as it was > entered, to machine code! I think that that is the reason for the odd > (crude) variable naming rules -- all variables existed (26 x 11 > numeric variables were possible). > > PS: I played with a later version of that BASIC implementation in > 1967. Mind you, I had no idea about compilers until perhaps year > later. What I was impressed with was time sharing (using a Teletype > terminal). Previously, I had mostly done batch computing with > turn-around measured in months. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 10:56:26 2005 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:56:26 -0400 Subject: Linux programmer jobs available Message-ID: <20051012105626.GA9463@localhost> The company I work for has posted the availablility of some Linux related programming positions. Please contact the company, not me, for more information. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 18:04:10 2005 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:04:10 -0400 Subject: Python week - comments please In-Reply-To: References: <4349B90B.9050405@rogers.com> <17c359fc0510101221xc2ff8cfjf1c2bd6220ce82f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CCBCD80-9D7D-4778-9073-CA5EC3C66C8B@ca.afilias.info> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10-Oct-05, at 18:55, John Vetterli wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Leigh Honeywell wrote: > >> ... There's also an informal >> Python study / hack session at Linuxcaffe every Wednesday evening. >> > > This sounds interesting. Any info on time? newbies welcome? It officially runs from 7pm to 8pm. Newbies welcome and encouraged. Course fee is to buy stuff from Dave since he's not charging us for the space. Bring a laptop if you have one, and make sure python is installed and ready to go. IDLE is also highly recommended. The text, to the extent there is a text, is Dive into Python. You should have a copy of it locally (it's available for download in a number of formats). You'll also need to have the python docs on your machine. They typically come with python, so hunt around and bookmark them beforehand. We seem to be migrating towards team programming and eventually XP methodologies. You might want to read up on these and see what you think about them. We're doing some computer science oriented stuff right now, but the next project will involve file--system manipulation and trickery. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Data Services Group Manager, Afilias Canada Corp. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDTVAagfzn5SevSpoRAqacAJ0WpFkUWPqjD0/Koo6ykRuAcVzhkACfYWTf v09OXUUUazsfaq/JF3sY2dw= =czv6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:16:44 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:16:44 -0400 Subject: Kickstart In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051012201643.GA1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 08:59:17PM -0400, psema4 wrote: > I've spent a bunch of this week racing around as if my head'd been lopped off. > > Been looking at how to build RHL-based kiosks and am just about ready > to build my first "automated" installer using kickstart. I'll be > testing with VMware (LinuxWorld swag, woot!) later this evening. I > unfortunately need to have at least half a dozen machines loaded up as > kiosks 3 days ago. > > I suppose this is relatively straight-forward. If there's anything > here that'll b0rk the install process I'd sure appreciate hearing > about it. Also, any gotchas about using Kickstart? Anything in > particular to watch out for? TIA > > (btw, this project is meant for business kiosks, not public ones you > might see at a mall or library, so I'm taking short cuts the first > time through. There are a couple packages not locked down by this > ks.cfg snippet - like X handling of ctl-alt-backspace. I just don't > have the time to go and find all the trouble spots then how to fix 'em > from kickstart just yet. It has been terribly educational though.) I know when I made an installer for a kiosk a couple of years ago, I eventually decided that using a normal installer with pre seeded answers was too much work. So I installed one kiosk as it should be, tar'd the filesystem, and made a bootable cd with an initrd that simply partitioned the HD in a predetermined way and made filesystems on the partitions and extracted the tar file, then updated the ip settings and a few other files. That was it, all done. Took about 2 minutes from power on until ready. No extracting packages or creating databases or anything, since it was already done. I simply extracted the contents of the filesystem. Turned out to be by far the simplest to maintain too. Just update one kiosk as you wanted it updated, and then future installs would have the new tar of the updated kiosk setup. For setting up many _different_ systems with varying hardware and such, a kickstart/preseed method is handy since it can do more taking hardware into account. But for identical systems, nothing beats some kind of disk imaging. If they are all able to connect to a local network, and net boot, something like systemimager might be even better. You could load them all in parallel once you setup one of them and image it. athlon:~# apt-cache search systemimager systemimager-boot-i386-standard - SystemImager boot binaries for i386 client nodes systemimager-boot-ia64-standard - SystemImager boot binaries for ia64 client nodes systemimager-client - Utilities for creating an image and upgrading client machines systemimager-common - Utilities and libraries common to both the server and client systemimager-doc - Manual and other documentation systemimager-server - Automate GNU/Linux installs and upgrades over a network systemimager-server-flamethrowerd - SystemImager boot binaries for i386 client nodes systemimager-ssh-i386 - SystemImager boot binaries for i386 client nodes systemimager-ssh-ia64 - SystemImager boot binaries for ia64 client nodes systeminstaller - Creates Linux distribution images from a set of packages athlon:~# apt-cache show systemimager-ssh-i386 Package: systemimager-ssh-i386 Priority: optional Section: admin Installed-Size: 1320 Maintainer: dann frazier Architecture: all Source: systemimager-ssh Version: 3.2.3-4 Depends: systemimager-boot-i386-standard (>= 3.2.0), systemimager-boot-i386-standard (<< 3.3.0) Filename: pool/main/s/systemimager-ssh/systemimager-ssh-i386_3.2.3-4_all.deb Size: 1281766 MD5sum: 7f04f2970335bd7b635883187e7f3dfe Description: SystemImager boot binaries for i386 client nodes SystemImager is a set of utilities for installing GNU/Linux disk images to client machines over the network. Images are stored in flat files on the server, making updates easy. The rsync protocol is used for transfers, making updates efficient. . This provides an optional ssh component for the image server, which adds the ability to do secure, automated installs. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 21:21:15 2005 From: zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:21:15 -0500 Subject: Local trade zone at cheapersafer.com In-Reply-To: <434C0478.7030800-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw@public.gmane.org> References: <434C0478.7030800@cheapersafer.com> Message-ID: <434D7E4B.7050703@zee4.com> Rob Sutherland wrote: > I decided to add a classified ad section to my business site, so that > I could advertise components > I want to sell and advertise for things I want. It occurred to me that > it would be a good thing to > have a buy and sell area for geeks and freelancers in the GTA, so I'm > inviting people on the > list to check it out at http://www.cheapersafer.net/ads/ > > Rob > Looks nice, thanks for the link. Zoltan -- www.YYZTech.ca Toronto talks tech. www.Dine.TO Toronto's premier restaurant search engine. Get Thunderbird -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:28:04 2005 From: leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:28:04 -0400 Subject: SUSE 9.3 and PostgreSQL? In-Reply-To: <4344314B.2010009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4344314B.2010009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1129148884.5142.39.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Hey, I thought I sent a reply to this a while ago, but I was looking through the list and don't see it, so here goes again, just in case. For whatever reason the postgresql packages for SUSE 9.3 were not on the regular CDs but were on the DVD image. They are also available via the Apt repository for SUSE RPMs, which is a nice simple way to get them. I have docs for setting that up at: https://heinous.org/wiki/Apt_on_SUSE oogabooga:~ # apt-cache search postgresql postgresql - Basic Clients and Utilities for PostgreSQL postgresql-contrib - Contributed Extensions and Additions to PostgreSQL postgresql-devel - PostgreSQL development header files and libraries postgresql-docs - HTML Documentation for PostgreSQL postgresql-libs - Shared Libraries Required for PostgreSQL Clients postgresql-pl - The PL/Tcl, PL/Perl, and PL/Python Procedural Languages for PostgreSQL postgresql-server - The Programs Needed to Create and Run a PostgreSQL Server postgresql-debuginfo - Debug information for package postgresql postgresql-jdbc - JDBC Drivers for PostgreSQL . . . Cheers, Leah On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:02 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > This may be a foolish question but... > > I am working on the docs for my program and wanted to make sure the > program works on SUSE 9.3 (and record what it took to get it going). > Now, the thing is I can't seem to find PostgreSQL in the YaST package > manager any where? > > Can someone tell me what package name I am looking for or if > PostgreSQL is even available for SUSE 9.3 (short of manually installing it)? > > Thanks! > > Madison > -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:28:04 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:28:04 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051007051223.GB4077-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 01:12:23AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Your description also fits > FreeBasic. It looks like a tossup for a newbie who hasn't programmed at > all. For someone who is reasonably familiar with QBASIC or QuickBasic, > FreeBasic is an easy upgrade path rather than learning a new language. > That was the deciding point for me. Well I have used basic. It by itself is not a very good language for many things. Various versions have extended it in ways to try and make it useful. ML is much older and has managed to survive without needing many extensions added to make it useful. To me that makes it a better language. The native support for lists as a type is very handy (one of the few things I like from lisp like languages) and the ability to define the same function with different argument types and have it automatically pick the function that applies based on the type of the arguments. Enforcing types strictly also catches many programming mistakes other languages that are not strongly types easily miss. no version of basic I have ever seen has much of a clue about types. > Working in C makes working in C seem like torture. I tried. It's > string primitives are... primitive... beyond belief. Any language where > you risk buffer overflow simply reading or concatenating strings is > b at dly b0rk3n. Don't get me wrong; for programming to the bare metal, > such as is required for writing an OS or a driver, C walks all over > cpu-specific assembler, and is almost 100% portable between > architectures. It's supreme in that area, but it sucks at scientific or > text-processing applications. "Horses for courses", etc. > > For people not part of the scene it may be hard to believe, but there > is a thriving QBASIC/QuickBasic-based community. It's not a nostalgia > scene like Commodore or Apple ][ communities. Video games are being > written in FreeBasic (and other QBASIC-like languages) today. Sites > like http://www.qbasicnews.com/ and http://forum.qbasicnews.com/ (where > FreeBasic has it's own sub-forum) are all over if you look. Just because it is being used doesn't make it a great language for the job. Lots of people use java and I am quite sure for most of the purposes there are better language choices. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:29:48 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:29:48 -0400 Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 04:36:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Amazingly enough, the original BASIC (at Dartmouth College) was an > incremental compiler. Each line was separately compiled, as it was > entered, to machine code! I think that that is the reason for the odd > (crude) variable naming rules -- all variables existed (26 x 11 > numeric variables were possible). > > PS: I played with a later version of that BASIC implementation in > 1967. Mind you, I had no idea about compilers until perhaps year > later. What I was impressed with was time sharing (using a Teletype > terminal). Previously, I had mostly done batch computing with > turn-around measured in months. Hmm, I underestimated the age of basic it would seem. I thought it was from the 70s some time. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:55:33 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:55:33 -0400 Subject: The hidden email Message-ID: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> Hi all, I didn't get a chance to give out my email address after the presentation so here it is. If anyone wanted to ask/suggest/critisize something, now you can easily find me. Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 21:06:16 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:06:16 -0300 (ADT) Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: TLUG/GTALUG Membership benefits. In-Reply-To: <1129146420.1223.0.camel-v5PwOrKzT3TZQciNwA3an+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <1129146420.1223.0.camel@drugs.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: How is it a special offer, if it is more expensive than the competition? Does the price include a modem? If so, then maybe. If not, then a place like teksavvy.com has a way more attractive offer. 100GB per month, monthly (rather than yearly) fee, and over $6 cheaper per month. Their site seems to offer info only on business lines, not residential. Am I missing something? Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Drew Sullivan wrote: > Special ISP offers for Fall > > Support GTALUG and get low-cost broadband at the same time! GTALUG has > partnered with Interlink Connectivity (http://www.iplink.net) to offer > reduced prices on broadband and colocation services for members of > GTALUG. A portion of the fees will be going to GTALUG to support our > efforts. > > Interlink's (http://www.iplink.net) residential DSL service: > > * $500.00 yearly fee (~41.66 per month) > * 3.0Mbps download 640k upload > * 1 assigned static IP address > * 10G per month data transfer > (Other residential broadband services are also available.) > > Interlink's (http://www.iplink.net) colocation service: > > * Interlink will provide one month free on all their colocation > services to GTALUG members. > * Colocation services starting at $50.00 per month for 1U and go > up to full racks. > Offer expires November 30,2005. Contact Dennis > Mansillo (mailto:dmansillo-in1zDm/uaHCsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) (416-585-9971 x691) for > additional details. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. http://tlug.ss.org > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 21:39:53 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:39:53 -0400 Subject: regexp matching question In-Reply-To: References: <20051005211242.GA2093@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051006025414.GA1448@waltdnes.org> <20051008022956.GB6001@waltdnes.org> <20051008221917.GA14222@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051012213953.GA11738@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 01:10:35AM +0200, Peter wrote > > > >>You are not going to like this but I made progess with my customized > >>formail replacement: > > > > What's not to like? I agree that formail runs into trouble > >occasionally, and a more specialized tool can do a better job in a > >specific area. > > We agree then. Could you please tell if the sed example works in your > sed version ? > > echo -e "a\na"|sed -e '/\n/M s/.\+/yes/g' > > fails here. Thanks, [m3000][waltdnes][~] echo -e "a\na"|sed -e '/\n/M s/.\+/yes/g' a a [m3000][waltdnes][~] bash --version GNU bash, version 3.00.16(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. Running on an AMD64. Gentoo linux with... CFLAGS="-O2 -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -march=athlon -m3dnow -mmmx -msse -msse2 -mfpmath=sse" -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 21:58:53 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:58:53 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: <434D7845.1000301-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> Message-ID: First off, great work! Questions: -Do the device comments need to be unique? -Do the Job comments need to be unique? (what is the job unique id?) -I have some "large" datasets here at work, if you want me to test anything in particular let me know. -what options are there for making the UI more drag and drop? Could a gnome / kde app be built that could be in addition to the web interface? Suggestions: -If possible add a hook into the hotplug subsystem so that if a device is added while you are looking at the devices / files menu you don't have to hit refresh? -SMB as destinations might be nice if you could come up with a clever way to do it? -Add an option such that if a job is missed it runs at the next boot. For running on desktop machines. Or, in case there was a clock jump and cron missed. -Handle extended attributes as well. --see man (1) attr -- -Add some way to do a onetime full system backup (including the boot area). I'm not sure if there are already utilities that you could just source for this? -Add an option to create "virtual destinations" (loopback devices ) that become cd isos and DVD isos that could then be burned. -Some way to do incremental backups (like rdif?) -Add some modularity so that people could add a database backup module. Or any other custom app they wanted. -make the programs like rsync and df etc, easy to custom configure. -Add a way to do a gzip and archive (or tar / gzip) so that people can use the same UI even if they have limited space. There's what I've got so far. -Joseph- On 10/12/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > I didn't get a chance to give out my email address after the > presentation so here it is. If anyone wanted to ask/suggest/critisize > something, now you can easily find me. > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up > Main project page: http://tle-bu.org > Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 > Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 22:56:46 2005 From: leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:56:46 -0400 Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt Message-ID: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> I have a strange problem that I am hoping for comments on. I am trying to migrate a bunch of Apache users from a htpasswd file over to LDAP accounts. I have a script that will do what I want for me, however, what I have been discovering is that the crypt that is used for Apache password files is specific and appears to not be 100% compatible with standard unix crypted passwords. I am therefore trying to find a clean way to somehow convert a bunch of Apache crypted passwords to standard Unix crypt format, or even MD5 or SHA. Any clue where I would start? Doing a crypt like this works fine for LDAP in perl: my($cpass) = crypt "$pass",(join '', ('.', '/', 0..9, 'A'..'Z','a'..'z')[rand 64, rand 64]); -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 22:55:16 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:55:16 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: TLUG/GTALUG Membership benefits. In-Reply-To: References: <1129146420.1223.0.camel@drugs.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: <20051012225516.GA20449@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 06:06:16PM -0300, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > How is it a special offer, if it is more expensive than the competition? > Does the price include a modem? If so, then maybe. If not, then a place > like teksavvy.com has a way more attractive offer. 100GB per month, > monthly (rather than yearly) fee, and over $6 cheaper per month. > > Their site seems to offer info only on business lines, not residential. > > Am I missing something? I think modem is included, because the standard package on their website says "modem included". It would be silly, otherwise. It's about $3 cheaper than competitions which average around $45. Probably cheaper if it's dynamic IP. :-) > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Drew Sullivan wrote: > > Interlink's (http://www.iplink.net) residential DSL service: > > > > * $500.00 yearly fee (~41.66 per month) > > * 3.0Mbps download 640k upload > > * 1 assigned static IP address > > * 10G per month data transfer > > (Other residential broadband services are also available.) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 23:18:07 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:18:07 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: TLUG/GTALUG Membership benefits. In-Reply-To: <20051012225516.GA20449-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1129146420.1223.0.camel@drugs.int.iplink.net> <20051012225516.GA20449@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <7248B39B-3B76-11DA-A16D-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Oct 12, 2005, at 6:55 PM, William Park wrote: > It's about $3 > cheaper than competitions which average around $45. Probably cheaper > if > it's dynamic IP. I have static for $32/month, but with my own modem. Even someone like Pathcom, who is more consumer-oriented is only $384/year including modem (dynamic). I suspect that the ISP in the announcement is one that's used to business pricing rather than residential service. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 20:32:20 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:32:20 -0400 Subject: Kickstart In-Reply-To: <20051012201643.GA1494-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510061759n1373c8d8g84591d07dbd7c236@mail.gmail.com> <20051012201643.GA1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510121332s60f199bcx87c55abc924f2ebb@mail.gmail.com> > For setting up many _different_ systems with varying hardware and such, > a kickstart/preseed method is handy since it can do more taking hardware > into account. But for identical systems, nothing beats some kind of > disk imaging. Unfortunately I'm using mixed hardware in this project. There's been a bunch of guesswork, burning, testing, correcting, guesswork, burning... etc going on in getting this to work. Building this kickstart file has been a serious pain in the rear, but should be worth it when it's finished. > If they are all able to connect to a local network, and net boot, > something like systemimager might be even better. You could load them > all in parallel once you setup one of them and image it. Now that's something I'll have to remember. System Imager is looking awfully handy. Thanks Lennart -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 00:37:39 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:37:39 +0200 (IST) Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt In-Reply-To: <1129157806.5142.51.camel-9IF+Noda+gbcChojucYrHiae+QG6wtwz@public.gmane.org> References: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Leah Cunningham wrote: > Any clue where I would start? Doing a crypt like this works fine for One word: john (the ripper) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 00:00:31 2005 From: leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:00:31 -0400 Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt In-Reply-To: References: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: <1129161631.5142.53.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 02:37 +0200, Peter wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Leah Cunningham wrote: > > > Any clue where I would start? Doing a crypt like this works fine for > > One word: john (the ripper) That's what I was afraid of, and indeed I'm half way through the passwd file now, I just wondered if there were any clever tricks to get around having to crack the file. Or perhaps, a way to get pam or ldap to better deal with the apache crypts. Leah -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 00:16:57 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 12 Oct 2005 20:16:57 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <87r7aqclty.fsf@buug.org> Joseph> -Add an option such that if a job is missed it runs at the next Joseph> boot. For running on desktop machines. Or, in case there was a Joseph> clock jump and cron missed. Can this be done administratively using anacron? -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 01:50:06 2005 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) =?iso-8859-1?q?Gagn=E9?=) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:50:06 -0400 Subject: Marcel live on Computer America tonight Message-ID: <200510122150.06498.mggagne@salmar.com> Hello everyone, I know it's a bit short notice, but here goes. tonight at 10:00 PM Eastern time (7:00 PM Pacific), I will be appearing live on the Computer America radio show. ?This is America's longest running nationally syndicated tech radio show (14 years and counting). It's also a live show with live callers so if you want to be on the air, check out the Computer America Website. You can listen to the show on streaming audio or live on local radio stations across the United States who carry the Computer America radio program. To find a station near you or to listen online, click yon link. ? ?http://computeramerica.com/listen.htm There's also a Java chat page available so you can take part in the live show. Just follow the link to http://computeramerica.com/launch.php. MP3s of the show will be made available soon afterwards. I'll post those on my Website sometime tomorrow (or as soon as I know the details). Take care out there. -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Mandatory home page reference - http://www.marcelgagne.com/ Author : "Moving to Linux" (second edition) "Moving to the Linux Business Desktop" "Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!" "Linux System Administration, A User's Guide" Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.marcelgagne.com/wftllugform.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 14:11:20 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:11:20 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434E6B08.8040705@alteeve.com> Joseph Kubik wrote: > First off, great work! Thank you! :) > Questions: w00t! I love questions. > -Do the device comments need to be unique? Nope. Comments are strictly for the user's benefit. > -Do the Job comments need to be unique? (what is the job unique id?) Nope. THe Unique ID is assigned by the system when the device is first seen and can't be changed. This is what the program uses to ID the device inside the program which is why the comment can be so flexible. > -I have some "large" datasets here at work, if you want me to test > anything in particular let me know. > -what options are there for making the UI more drag and drop? Could a > gnome / kde app be built that could be in addition to the web interface? At this point having as many different scenarios tested with both small and large datasets is the biggest help people can give me (though I'm open for other kinds of help, too :) ). So if you get a change to try a very large dataset as a stress test I would very much be interested in the results. > Suggestions: > -If possible add a hook into the hotplug subsystem so that if a device > is added while you are looking at the devices / files menu you don't > have to hit refresh? The problem there would be how could I tell the client to reload the page without something like a Java applet? Being a standard web interface the connection between the client and server is torn down once the data has been passed. > -SMB as destinations might be nice if you could come up with a clever > way to do it? Letting SMB (and vfat, etc) be destination partitions would be relatively trivial. Perhaps I should add a setting that a user could enable that would allow those partitions be destinations. The reason I don't currently allow them to be destinations is that Unix-style permissions can't be saved. If a user understands this and isn't concerned then it should be fine. > -Add an option such that if a job is missed it runs at the next boot. > For running on desktop machines. Or, in case there was a clock jump and > cron missed. As Ian mentioned in the reply, there might be an alternative to 'cron' that would support this. I was thinking of adding a method to switch out certain apps (like changing 'rsync' for 'rdiff' for the people who wanted versioning of source media). If something like 'anacron' would solve this I could make 'cron' swappable as well. > -Handle extended attributes as well. --see man (1) attr -- May I ask, is this something that normally needs to be installed? I don't seem to have that on my system and 'attribute' is rather general. It seems that I missed something important along the way. :p > -Add some way to do a onetime full system backup (including the boot > area). I'm not sure if there are already utilities that you could just > source for this? Hmm, I think 'dd' or something similar would do that. The biggest question would be writting the boot sector on the destination drive. Other than that though you could essentially do this already. On a given destination drive format it to be similar to your system's partition (like including a swap partition). Then create a backup job for each partition (ie: a job called 'boot partition', 'home partition', etc) and in each job tell it to backup only the specific source and set the destination partition it could use to be the equivelant partition on your destination device(s). Set the backup jobs to run back to back and you should have backup drives that are ready to boot. Perhaps to get around the boot record issue is to just set the proper partition on the destination drive to be bootable. After that you should be good to go with a 'bare-metal' recovery. You have peaked my interest! I will try this today myself and if it works I will add a section in the manual to describe exactly how to do this. > -Add an option to create "virtual destinations" (loopback devices ) that > become cd isos and DVD isos that could then be burned. That is a good idea but it would also be bigger deal to tie into the program itself. If you manually create a loopback device the program should see it then you could treat it like any other destination. Again, I will try this (after the bare-metal test) and see if it works and document it if so. > -Some way to do incremental backups (like rdif?) As I mentioned, I am thinking of a way to make certain apps like 'rsync' replaceable. If I can do this then adding versioning should be as trivial as changing a setting. > -Add some modularity so that people could add a database backup module. > Or any other custom app they wanted. The reason the v0.3 devel cycle will be "from scratch" is specifically to make the code modular. Not doing so in the first place was an oversight on my behalf. v0.4 will be the first full release that will be modular (and hopefully be the code base that will evolve from then on). > -make the programs like rsync and df etc, easy to custom configure. The 'settings' menu was my attempt to do that. I have already decided though that v0.3/4 will just use a plain-text config file to simplify it further (the idea nehind in the program was to make it easier to access and edit but it added too much complexity and 'gotchas'). > -Add a way to do a gzip and archive (or tar / gzip) so that people can > use the same UI even if they have limited space. Well, the idea behind not doing this originally was to simplify restore but enough people have asked for it that it will most likely be a feature in the next version. > There's what I've got so far. > -Joseph- That was wonderful, thank you very much! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 14:30:02 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:30:02 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434E6F6A.7070204@alteeve.com> Joseph Kubik wrote: > -what options are there for making the UI more drag and drop? Could a > gnome / kde app be built that could be in addition to the web interface? Woops, I missed this question. I suspect that it *could* be but not with the v0.2 release. I made the mistake of tieing the interface right into the code instead of keeping it separate which I very much plan to do in the next devel cycle. I personally haven't written anything for Gnome/KDE (or GTK or other gui toolkits) so I am not sure exactly what would be required but given the next version will be modular I will be passing just basic display information to the display module (ie: use this template to display this data). I don't think it would be hard for someone to take information like that and make a GUI app for it. If you or anyone here is experienced with writting GUIs and/or would be willing to help with that I would love to have a chat to make sure I keep the output from the modules in a format that you (or whoever) could work with. If not then maybe as I get closer to finishing the v0.3 devel cycle I will take a stab at it myself. :) Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 08:31:02 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt In-Reply-To: <1129157806.5142.51.camel-9IF+Noda+gbcChojucYrHiae+QG6wtwz@public.gmane.org> References: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Leah Cunningham wrote: > I have a strange problem that I am hoping for comments on. I am trying > to migrate a bunch of Apache users from a htpasswd file over to LDAP > accounts. I have a script that will do what I want for me, however, > what I have been discovering is that the crypt that is used for Apache > password files is specific and appears to not be 100% compatible with > standard unix crypted passwords. I am therefore trying to find a clean > way to somehow convert a bunch of Apache crypted passwords to standard > Unix crypt format, or even MD5 or SHA. > > Any clue where I would start? Doing a crypt like this works fine for > LDAP in perl: > > my($cpass) = crypt "$pass",(join '', ('.', '/', 0..9, > 'A'..'Z','a'..'z')[rand 64, rand 64]); Hi Leah, Can you give us examples maybe? From my experiments, the crypt is the same: [behdad at home ~]$ htpasswd -c -b htpasswd behdad testPass Adding password for user behdad [behdad at home ~]$ cat htpasswd behdad:tjwWZenZA50Fs [behdad at home ~]$ perl -e 'print crypt("testPass", "tj")' tjwWZenZA50Fs [behdad at home ~]$ but the MD5 format is different: [behdad at home ~]$ htpasswd -c -m -b htpasswd behdad testPass Adding password for user behdad [behdad at home ~]$ cat htpasswd behdad:$apr1$uP4iP...$05P2T5MH8yXH7qJEQwezV. where in Unix passwd files, the initial $apr1$ is simply $1$. If you simply remove the "apr", no, it doesn't work. You may find this recent blog entry helpful: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alvaro?entry=md5_and_apache_magic_string --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 15:12:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:12:18 -0400 Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt In-Reply-To: <1129161631.5142.53.camel-9IF+Noda+gbcChojucYrHiae+QG6wtwz@public.gmane.org> References: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> <1129161631.5142.53.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: <20051013151218.GA32650@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 08:00:31PM -0400, Leah Cunningham wrote: > That's what I was afraid of, and indeed I'm half way through the passwd > file now, I just wondered if there were any clever tricks to get around > having to crack the file. Or perhaps, a way to get pam or ldap to > better deal with the apache crypts. Even if you can crach the passwords, part of a problem would be that the password it gives you may not be the same as what the user uses. They would just be two passwords which both hash to the same thing using that particular crypt. So if you were to use that and re encrypt it with another algorithm, now the users real password (the one they believe to be their password) won't work anymore. Unless you have the plaintext passwords, you can't change encryption. There is just no way. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 15:18:33 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:18:33 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: <434E6B08.8040705-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> <434E6B08.8040705@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051013151833.GB32650@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 10:11:20AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > >-Add a way to do a gzip and archive (or tar / gzip) so that people can > >use the same UI even if they have limited space. > > Well, the idea behind not doing this originally was to simplify > restore but enough people have asked for it that it will most likely be > a feature in the next version. I use afio rather than tar/gzip since afio compresses each file in the archive with gzip rather than creating the archive and then compressing it. You loose some compression as a result but not much, but you gain the ability to quickly seek through the file to the head for the file you want and then start decompressing the file (and only the file) rather than having to decompress the whole thing to find the header and filedata you want, as you would with tar/gzip. Makes restores very very fast while still gaining compression. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 19:21:12 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:21:12 -0400 Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: <20051012202948.GC1494-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/12/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 04:36:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > Amazingly enough, the original BASIC (at Dartmouth College) was an > > incremental compiler. Each line was separately compiled, as it was > > entered, to machine code! I think that that is the reason for the odd > > (crude) variable naming rules -- all variables existed (26 x 11 > > numeric variables were possible). > > > > PS: I played with a later version of that BASIC implementation in > > 1967. Mind you, I had no idea about compilers until perhaps year > > later. What I was impressed with was time sharing (using a Teletype > > terminal). Previously, I had mostly done batch computing with > > turn-around measured in months. > > Hmm, I underestimated the age of basic it would seem. I thought it was > from the 70s some time. Well, I was fooling around with BASIC on a high school teletype machine starting in Fall 1973, and it was not at all new by then .. it was a pretty standard language that was used on quite a few systems. Of course, my Dad got me addicted by showing my little bits of APL code, and by road-testing an IBM 'portable' called the 5100 that did both APL and BASIC. It was called a portable because .. it had a handle. That unit weighed 50-60 pounds, and would only have fit on Andre the Giant's lap. Alex -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 20:06:15 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:06:15 -0400 Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051013200615.GE26305@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 03:21:12PM -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > On 10/12/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 04:36:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > Amazingly enough, the original BASIC (at Dartmouth College) was an > > > incremental compiler. Each line was separately compiled, as it was > > > entered, to machine code! I think that that is the reason for the odd > > > (crude) variable naming rules -- all variables existed (26 x 11 > > > numeric variables were possible). > > > > > > PS: I played with a later version of that BASIC implementation in > > > 1967. Mind you, I had no idea about compilers until perhaps year > > > later. What I was impressed with was time sharing (using a Teletype > > > terminal). Previously, I had mostly done batch computing with > > > turn-around measured in months. > > > > Hmm, I underestimated the age of basic it would seem. I thought it was > > from the 70s some time. > > > Well, I was fooling around with BASIC on a high school teletype machine > starting in Fall 1973, and it was not at all new by then .. it was a pretty > standard language that was used on quite a few systems. > > Of course, my Dad got me addicted by showing my little bits of APL code, and > by road-testing an IBM 'portable' called the 5100 that did both APL and > BASIC. It was called a portable because .. it had a handle. That unit > weighed 50-60 pounds, and would only have fit on Andre the Giant's lap. That category of machine was generally referred to as luggable rather than portable - by anyone who had ever ported one. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 20:11:03 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:11:03 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <434EBF57.1080609@rogers.com> Alex Beamish wrote: > Well, I was fooling around with BASIC on a high school teletype machine > starting in Fall 1973, and it was not at all new by then .. it was a > pretty standard language that was used on quite a few systems. My first programming "experience" was Fortran, also in high school, a couple of years earlier. We had to use pencil mark cards, which the teacher took down to the board office, where the computer was located. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 20:58:10 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:58:10 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support Message-ID: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Hi all, I have been working on testing my backup program on different distributions (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I wanted advice on which distributions I should test next. So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I couldn't test them all). I have Mandrake, Slackware and Ubuntu up next. If anyone knows of a list of Linux distributions by popularity that would also be a great help. Thanks! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 21:08:21 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <434ECA62.2010408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been working on testing my backup program on different distributions > (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I wanted advice on which > distributions I should test next. > > So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do you > think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I couldn't test > them all). > > I have Mandrake, Now called Mandriva. > Slackware and Ubuntu up next. If anyone knows of a list of > Linux distributions by popularity that would also be a great help. Gentoo seems popular. See for more info and rankings. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================== Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 21:21:07 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:21:07 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <434ECA62.2010408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: FreeBSD is a must! I'd be happy to assist with that. Same goes for Mac OSX. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been working on testing my backup program on different > distributions (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I wanted > advice on which distributions I should test next. > > So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do > you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I > couldn't test them all). > > I have Mandrake, Slackware and Ubuntu up next. If anyone knows of a > list of Linux distributions by popularity that would also be a great help. > > Thanks! > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up > Main project page: http://tle-bu.org > Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 > Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 21:32:41 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:32:41 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <434ED279.5090004@rogers.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > FreeBSD is a must! I'd be happy to assist with that. Same goes for Mac > OSX. Don't forget CP/M. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 23:37:52 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:37:52 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: <434EBF57.1080609-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: Message-ID: <434EB790.5453.10E77F79@localhost> > Alex Beamish wrote: > > > Well, I was fooling around with BASIC on a high school teletype > > machine starting in Fall 1973, and it was not at all new by then .. > > it was a pretty standard language that was used on quite a few > > systems. > > My first programming "experience" was Fortran, also in high school, a > couple of years earlier. We had to use pencil mark cards, which the > teacher took down to the board office, where the computer was located. For the record, some early major high-level programming languages were released in the following years: FORTRAN -- 1957 (first high-level language) LISP -- 1958 COBOL -- 1959 BASIC -- 1964 PASCAL -- 1968 Can't vouch for accuracy, but there is a nice timeline at: http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#02 And most of these dates (except COBOL) came from: http://tinyurl.com/3p9nm (Princeton University). > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 00:50:02 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:50:02 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Haven't seen much information about this since last year, but apparently it's become a little heated... "A battle has erupted over who governs the internet, with America demanding to maintain a key role in the network it helped create and other countries demanding more control. The European commission is warning that if a deal cannot be reached at a meeting in Tunisia next month the internet will split apart." http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/13/1843200 http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,16559,1589967,00.html -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 01:08:53 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:08:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434F0525.5000807@istop.com> psema4 wrote: > Haven't seen much information about this since last year, but > apparently it's become a little heated... > > "A battle has erupted over who governs the internet, with America > demanding to maintain a key role in the network it helped create and > other countries demanding more control. > > The European commission is warning that if a deal cannot be reached at > a meeting in Tunisia next month the internet will split apart." > > http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/13/1843200 > http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,16559,1589967,00.html Well, well, so ICANN is under a contract from US department of commerce? ;) Actually, Internet was a failure. It was supposed to create a new medium where mind control could be excercied, but the idea did not work, almost entirely. Contrary, it become the bastion of free speach. So, I am not surprised that there are voices to shut it down, or at least, to partition it. Northern America has a long tradition of isolating itself from their cultural roots (which are, btw, in Europe, mostly). But I am rather optimistic: there are already too many billions of $$ behind the Internet, and cutting it down to parts would mean huge losses. Though, from another hand, these who care for shouting mouths do not care so much for money because they have them from other sources. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 01:30:01 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (meng) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:30:01 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434F0525.5000807-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434F0525.5000807@istop.com> Message-ID: <434F0A19.7060909@pppoe.ca> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Well, well, so ICANN is under a contract from US department of > commerce? ;) > > Actually, Internet was a failure. It was supposed to create a new > medium where mind control could be excercied, but the idea did not > work, almost entirely. Contrary, it become the bastion of free speach. > > So, I am not surprised that there are voices to shut it down, or at > least, to partition it. Northern America has a long tradition of > isolating itself from their cultural roots (which are, btw, in Europe, > mostly). > > But I am rather optimistic: there are already too many billions of $$ > behind the Internet, and cutting it down to parts would mean huge > losses. Though, from another hand, these who care for shouting mouths > do not care so much for money because they have them from other sources. > http://european.de.orsn.net/faq.php From the above faq: ORSN is an abbreviation for Open Root Server Network and stands for a network of DNS servers in member countries of the European Union and/or neighbouring countries. The ORSN serves as a alternative for the existing root-server network since February 2002, which is coordinated by the ICANN. In contrast to the root servers of the ICANN, the ORSN servers should predominantly be placed in Europe. The maximum number of ORSN root-servers will be 13. Why does the internet need "ORSN"? Until now, the administration is done by the USA and/or the ICANN. Therefor, a large number of root-servers is located in America. A loss or the modification of the root-server information could result in serious consequences for all other countries concerning their internet use. It is for example possible to stop a whole country from using the internet. In practice, this scenario didn't happen so far but it can't be excluded either. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 14:27:23 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 14 Oct 2005 10:27:23 -0400 Subject: The history of the world: part 1 (was Re:Re: In defence of C) In-Reply-To: <434EB790.5453.10E77F79@localhost> References: <434EB790.5453.10E77F79@localhost> Message-ID: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org writes: > Can't vouch for accuracy, but there is a nice timeline at: > http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#02 There's a prettier version at: http://www.oreilly.com/news/languageposter_0504.html And if you ever see ORA at a conference, try to grab their poster of it. It's very nice. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 19:33:58 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:33:58 +0200 (IST) Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > Haven't seen much information about this since last year, but > apparently it's become a little heated... Imho, to answer the question 'how will it affect you', ask yourself: how did any government (your owns or another countries) action affect your internet access and experience in the previous ten years give or take a little. If your answer to that is 'not at all', then that's probably the answer to how much the 'falling apart' that is about to start (since when was the internet cohesive anyway ? - so what are they going to do, set up border filters like in China ?). Come on. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 18:52:01 2005 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:52:01 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > >> Haven't seen much information about this since last year, but >> apparently it's become a little heated... > > > Imho, to answer the question 'how will it affect you', ask yourself: > how did any government (your owns or another countries) action affect > your internet access and experience in the previous ten years give or > take a little. If your answer to that is 'not at all', then that's > probably the answer to how much the 'falling apart' that is about to > start (since when was the internet cohesive anyway ? - so what are > they going to do, set up border filters like in China ?). Come on. > I agree that the threat of this as portrayed by the media is seriously overblown but this could have some serious consequences. In the short term nothing is likely to change, but long term the picture is a bit different. What happens if the EU/UN decide to ignore ICANN and setup their own version? Suddenly there are two "authoritative" bodies passing out IP address blocks and managing domain names. If things aren't resolved, this will begin to play havoc with routing and DNS. There are enough government services around the world that require a healthy, functioning internet that they would be forced to choose sides and possibly cut connections to the other. Suddenly the internet isn't so global anymore. That said, I'm fairly certain that it won't get anywhere close to this. No matter how stupid the Bush administration is, too many multinational (read: wealthy) corporations depend on a globally functional internet for something like this to carry on for long. Of course, if said corporations decide it's not worth the trouble to lobby and get together to start setting up their own "Corpnet" then I will start getting worried. Regards, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 18:52:48 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 14 Oct 2005 14:52:48 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Peter writes: > Imho, to answer the question 'how will it affect you', ask yourself: how did > any government (your owns or another countries) action affect your internet > access and experience in the previous ten years give or take a little. If > your answer to that is 'not at all', then that's probably the answer to how > much the 'falling apart' that is about to start (since when was the internet > cohesive anyway ? - so what are they going to do, set up border filters like > in China ?). Come on. Maybe so but if they take all of the AOL users with them, I'm all for it. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 18:57:34 2005 From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:57:34 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU Message-ID: This just might become the world catylst for ipv6. If not, it would at least be the end of spam Dave Bour Desktop Solution Center 905.381.0077 dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca For those who just want it to work... Giving you complete IT peace of mind. (Sent via Blackberry) PIN 30073084 (as of May 9,2005) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org Sent: Fri Oct 14 14:52:01 2005 Subject: Re: [TLUG]: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > >> Haven't seen much information about this since last year, but >> apparently it's become a little heated... > > > Imho, to answer the question 'how will it affect you', ask yourself: > how did any government (your owns or another countries) action affect > your internet access and experience in the previous ten years give or > take a little. If your answer to that is 'not at all', then that's > probably the answer to how much the 'falling apart' that is about to > start (since when was the internet cohesive anyway ? - so what are > they going to do, set up border filters like in China ?). Come on. > I agree that the threat of this as portrayed by the media is seriously overblown but this could have some serious consequences. In the short term nothing is likely to change, but long term the picture is a bit different. What happens if the EU/UN decide to ignore ICANN and setup their own version? Suddenly there are two "authoritative" bodies passing out IP address blocks and managing domain names. If things aren't resolved, this will begin to play havoc with routing and DNS. There are enough government services around the world that require a healthy, functioning internet that they would be forced to choose sides and possibly cut connections to the other. Suddenly the internet isn't so global anymore. That said, I'm fairly certain that it won't get anywhere close to this. No matter how stupid the Bush administration is, too many multinational (read: wealthy) corporations depend on a globally functional internet for something like this to carry on for long. Of course, if said corporations decide it's not worth the trouble to lobby and get together to start setting up their own "Corpnet" then I will start getting worried. Regards, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 19:06:50 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:06:50 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434FFE51.5080802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: The return of basement BBSes... :-) -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 19:05:17 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434FFE51.5080802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 10/14/05, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > I agree that the threat of this as portrayed by the media is seriously > overblown but this could have some serious consequences. In the short > term nothing is likely to change, but long term the picture is a bit > different. What happens if the EU/UN decide to ignore ICANN and setup > their own version? Suddenly there are two "authoritative" bodies > passing out IP address blocks and managing domain names. If things > aren't resolved, this will begin to play havoc with routing and DNS. > There are enough government services around the world that require a > healthy, functioning internet that they would be forced to choose sides > and possibly cut connections to the other. Suddenly the internet isn't > so global anymore. > > That said, I'm fairly certain that it won't get anywhere close to this. > No matter how stupid the Bush administration is, too many multinational > (read: wealthy) corporations depend on a globally functional internet > for something like this to carry on for long. Of course, if said > corporations decide it's not worth the trouble to lobby and get together > to start setting up their own "Corpnet" then I will start getting worried. > > Regards, > Marcus The return of basement BBSes! :-) -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 19:19:09 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:19:09 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Sorry about that double-post... it wasn't meant for emphasis... Gmail must have been doing a backup or something when it froze on send. Uh oh, now it's a triple post. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 19:43:44 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:43:44 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510141243t6f58c68dn97bfa12e3eb77f@mail.gmail.com> > Maybe so but if they take all of the AOL users with them, I'm all for it. Lol. Hrmm. Thought Google was going to try that. ;-) -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 01:49:16 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434FFE51.5080802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > I agree that the threat of this as portrayed by the media is seriously > overblown but this could have some serious consequences. In the short term Agreed. > nothing is likely to change, but long term the picture is a bit different. > What happens if the EU/UN decide to ignore ICANN and setup their own version? > Suddenly there are two "authoritative" bodies passing out IP address blocks So far the discussions I've seen have all revolved around the creation of an alternative set of root nameservers. Without legislation the governments of Europe/Brazil/wherever can't enforce this. Watch the ISPs all use the normal set of root nameservers. Remember there have been several private enterprise attempts at creating alternative sets of root nameservers and all have been a failure. A government backed set will go the same way without the force of law. If duplicate address blocks were allocated this would be a big deal. I don't see this happening as ICANN doesn't directly get involved in these allocations and Europe already has its own body for IP address allocation (http://www.ripe.net). The world is divided into several regions, each with its own address registry. This has been the case for many years. > That said, I'm fairly certain that it won't get anywhere close to this. No > matter how stupid the Bush administration is, too many multinational (read: > wealthy) corporations depend on a globally functional internet for something > like this to carry on for long. Of course, if said corporations decide it's > not worth the trouble to lobby and get together to start setting up their own > "Corpnet" then I will start getting worried. OTOH the Internet, despite what some claim, was actually doing very well without corporate involvement for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a split of the network but a network where open standards were never under threat would be dreamy. When the Internet was gaining ground outside univerities (say 1990-1993) there were several commercial alternatives (AOL, CompuServe, others). All either died or effectively surrendered to the power of the Internet. On reflection I think the same would happen again if we had Corpnet vs a new global open network[1]. [1] Which I'm quite certain would emerge if the Internet actually collapsed in any meaningful way. For one, I'd be involved. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 03:14:53 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:14:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4350742D.40704@telly.org> Steve wrote: >The return of basement BBSes... :-) > > Or maybe, the rebirth of UUCP. (Damn, I just threw out that Trailblazer modem last month...) - Evan {utgpu|attcan|ddsw1}!telly!evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 04:52:46 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:52:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access Message-ID: Did anyone else see this article on proposed wiretapping abilities? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051011.wxaccess11/BNStory/National/ I don't take issue with the actual potential for invasion of privacy, since I think it is somewhat inevitable. For anyone who isn't involved in illegal activities there should be no problems. Regardless (and I concurr the previous point is very much debateable), my concern is with the following: "The major boost in interception capacity is in proposals the government has put forward in confidential negotiations with the telecom industry as it prepares new legislation on high-tech wiretapping scheduled to be introduced next month." Why must the proposals be confidential? If it is a government initiative, shouldn't the proposals be made public, what with the governemnt being a public body and all? Claiming that making such proposals public knowledge would give the baddies the jump on new wiretapping technologies is silly in light of existing encryption and anonymizing tools already available. Thoughts? Jamon Camisso -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 04:53:58 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:53:58 -0400 Subject: Freedom of choice, anybody? In-Reply-To: <434F0A19.7060909-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434F0525.5000807@istop.com> <434F0A19.7060909@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051015045358.GA28304@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 09:30:01PM -0400, meng wrote > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > Why does the internet need "ORSN"? A reporter once said to Linus Torvalds that the large number of linux distros was very confusing. To which Linus retorted that the residents of former East Germany were similarly confused during their first election in unified Germany... all those political parties to choose from on the ballot... what to do? The best analogy to DNS is a phonebook. You enter a (machine) name and get back a number (IP address). An alternate root system is like those alternate phone books from Telus. You can use them if you wish. Or you can ignore them. New.Net has a kludgy setup right now that tries to offer something similar, but it's not really a root server. Again, if you don't like the alternates, don't point resolv.conf at their system. > Until now, the administration is done by the USA and/or the ICANN. > Therefor, a large number of root-servers is located in America. A loss > or the modification of the root-server information could result in > serious consequences for all other countries concerning their internet > use. It is for example possible to stop a whole country from using the > internet. In practice, this scenario didn't happen so far Wrong, wrong, wrong. Iraq's ".iq" TLD was de-activated before the 2003 war. No, it was *NOT* at Sadam's request, either. George Bush can pick up the phone and order the de-activation of any domain on the planet... he just has to mumble something about "National Security" and all the "checks and balances" go by the wayside. > but it can't be excluded either. It *HAS* happened once, it can happen again. Given how important the internet is to many national economies, there are a lot of countries that are scared of the fact that their net access is controlled by an American corporation, which is subject to American law. It is a matter of national security for every country on the planet that they have the ability to control their own domains. Not only was the .iq domain shut down in 2003, it was originally allocated in 1997 to a Palestinian emigre living in the USA!!! Read http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/30/iraq_internet_domain/ (note; it's a *LONG* article). After you finish, ask youself, do you *REALLY* trust a system under which an American company can hand your country's domain to someone of another nationality who lives in the USA??? -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 05:44:10 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Did anyone else see this article on proposed wiretapping abilities? > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051011.wxaccess11/BNStory/National/ > > I don't take issue with the actual potential for invasion of privacy, > since I think it is somewhat inevitable. For anyone who isn't involved > in illegal activities there should be no problems. Regardless (and I This is only true if we start from the premise that the government will only ever use wiretapping to investigate those reasonably suspected of involvement in crimes. History shows that wiretapping has been used far more widely than this, even in democracies. There is always the fear of the "slipper slope" too. > Why must the proposals be confidential? If it is a government initiative, It shouldn't be. > shouldn't the proposals be made public, what with the governemnt being a > public body and all? Claiming that making such proposals public knowledge > would give the baddies the jump on new wiretapping technologies is silly in > light of existing encryption and anonymizing tools already available. > > Thoughts? It is an application of "security through obscurity". This is a flawed approach to security but one which many erroneously cling to. Bringing this closer to home, many of the criticisms laid on OSS by those who do not understand it well[1] often boil down to a belief that security through obscurity is a good thing. [1] Just quiz then on licencing to establish this. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 07:42:59 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:42:59 +0200 (IST) Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434FFE51.5080802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > I agree that the threat of this as portrayed by the media is seriously > overblown but this could have some serious consequences. In the short term > nothing is likely to change, but long term the picture is a bit different. > What happens if the EU/UN decide to ignore ICANN and setup their own version? > Suddenly there are two "authoritative" bodies passing out IP address blocks > and managing domain names. If things aren't resolved, this will begin to > play havoc with routing and DNS. There are enough government services around > the world that require a healthy, functioning internet that they would be > forced to choose sides and possibly cut connections to the other. Suddenly > the internet isn't so global anymore. > > That said, I'm fairly certain that it won't get anywhere close to this. No > matter how stupid the Bush administration is, too many multinational (read: > wealthy) corporations depend on a globally functional internet for something > like this to carry on for long. Of course, if said corporations decide it's > not worth the trouble to lobby and get together to start setting up their own > "Corpnet" then I will start getting worried. Oh, so there will be state-sponsored name squatting ? ;-). There is no need to cut connections, namespaces can be overloaded and NAT need not occur only at your home router. The internet is *extremely* flexible in routing as it is today. There will be no problems, just a little more work for admins. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 07:44:06 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:44:06 +0200 (IST) Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434FFE51.5080802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Steve wrote: > The return of basement BBSes... :-) Yeah! Every modern linux distribution still has a working copy of uucp tools in it somewhere! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 16:53:59 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051015165400.20090.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> "Confidential negotiations with industry" sounds more like what is allowed (encouraged?) to happen down South. The argument takes international organized crime and money laundering as the reason for the ability to invade the privacy of regular citizens. Well the big time mob have the resources to operate sophisticated encrypted networks, its us regular guys who have to worry about loosing our privacy and the numerous errors and abuses by the various agencies in the past prove this should not be conducted in private. If this process is important enough to hide now how about in the future? Imagine you are charged with a crime and the presenting of the evidence against you causes the exposure of the methods used to obtain the evidence, will the prosecution be allowed to present "confidential evidence"? Evidence hidden from you! How would you like to be charged with a crime and not allowed to examine the evidence? Sometimes I think I'm reading the Saudi Globe and Mail. --- Jamon Camisso wrote: > Did anyone else see this article on proposed > wiretapping abilities? > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051011.wxaccess11/BNStory/National/ > > I don't take issue with the actual potential for > invasion of privacy, > since I think it is somewhat inevitable. For anyone > who isn't involved > in illegal activities there should be no problems. > Regardless (and I > concurr the previous point is very much debateable), > my concern is with > the following: > > "The major boost in interception capacity is in > proposals the government > has put forward in confidential negotiations with > the telecom industry > as it prepares new legislation on high-tech > wiretapping scheduled to be > introduced next month." > > Why must the proposals be confidential? If it is a > government > initiative, shouldn't the proposals be made public, > what with the > governemnt being a public body and all? Claiming > that making such > proposals public knowledge would give the baddies > the jump on new > wiretapping technologies is silly in light of > existing encryption and > anonymizing tools already available. > > Thoughts? > > Jamon Camisso > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 17:27:43 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:27:43 -0400 Subject: [OT] Internet may "fall apart" next month, says EU In-Reply-To: <434F0A19.7060909-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510131750w7becbbfbx4f0ffa9c5eda0c75@mail.gmail.com> <434F0525.5000807@istop.com> <434F0A19.7060909@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: On 10/13/05, meng wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > Well, well, so ICANN is under a contract from US department of > > commerce? ;) > > > > Actually, Internet was a failure. It was supposed to create a new > > medium where mind control could be excercied, but the idea did not > > work, almost entirely. Contrary, it become the bastion of free speach. > > > > So, I am not surprised that there are voices to shut it down, or at > > least, to partition it. Northern America has a long tradition of > > isolating itself from their cultural roots (which are, btw, in Europe, > > mostly). > > > > But I am rather optimistic: there are already too many billions of $$ > > behind the Internet, and cutting it down to parts would mean huge > > losses. Though, from another hand, these who care for shouting mouths > > do not care so much for money because they have them from other sources. > > > http://european.de.orsn.net/faq.php > > From the above faq: > > ORSN is an abbreviation for Open Root Server Network and stands for a > network of DNS servers in member countries of the European Union and/or > neighbouring countries. > The ORSN serves as a alternative for the existing root-server network > since February 2002, which is coordinated by the ICANN. In contrast to > the root servers of the ICANN, the ORSN servers should predominantly be > placed in Europe. The maximum number of ORSN root-servers will be 13. > > Why does the internet need "ORSN"? > Until now, the administration is done by the USA and/or the ICANN. > Therefor, a large number of root-servers is located in America. A loss > or the modification of the root-server information could result in > serious consequences for all other countries concerning their internet > use. It is for example possible to stop a whole country from using the > internet. In practice, this scenario didn't happen so far but it can't > be excluded either. This misunderstands things quite a bit. 1. There are geographically widely-dispersed root servers. While 10 of the 13 are operated by organizations based in the USA, there are three that are NOT, and some operate, via things like multicasting, highly distributed root servers. ISC, for instance, operates the "Letter F" root servers, which consist of 33 highly geographically dispersed nodes that operate via anycast. I expect the ones operated by the US military (G and H) don't have the richness of international deployment 2. A diversification of roots wouldn't forcibly need to affect name squatting or name allocation. There are already "alternate root" systems which, such as they support anything, can support the existing zones (.com, .net, .org, .info, .travel, .aero, various others, and the country codes) via pulling zone files from the existing registry sources. If they take much the same information from the same registries, then this changes relatively little about name resolution. This would be like picking one Linux distribution over another; if they all dip their nets into the same streams of source data, they will all behave similarly to what you see now. That's the case for ORSN; the point of it is to provide a set of root servers somewhat localized to the EU that is thus convenient (hopefully fast/low latency) for EU-based users to point to. An entertaining one is TLDA.net; they proposed a more distributed approach to claiming names, and proponents set up TLDs such as .god and .satan and somewhat jokey things of the sort. Some weren't happy with the notion of registries "sitting in the way" charging money for what they think ought to be free, and there are some interesting (dunno if it could scale) alternative approaches. As someone whose salary is paid by such a registry, I suppose I may have some inherent bias :-), but I do find that much of the "anti-registry" commentary is either associated with a) Gripes about some particular registry's operation, or b) A complete lack of understanding that making things work reliably isn't something you can do on a 486 with a couple of IDE drives, or c) A lack of the perspective that, for inexpensive things, it can cost more to do the accounting than it does to provide those inexpensive things. (Case in point: I'll bet that it costs a LOT more for cellular companies to provide monthly itemized bills to their customers than it costs to operate the hardware that actually provides the cellular service...) If the EU or UN or ISO or such took over the politics, there would, no doubt, be some noticeable changes. But I doubt that there is anything particularly obvious about what would be the "user visible" aspects to it. Thinking of cell phones, again... Consider that much the same cellular hardware is used all around the world under numerous political regimes and political structures. There are variations in what cell services exist, from country to country, and from vendor to vendor. The "shapes" of those variations vary quite a lot. It is not self-evident that the name of the political regime determines all that much about the shape of the cellular service. It seems to me that the same would be true for changes to the way the Internet works. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 18:15:45 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:15:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access In-Reply-To: <20051015165400.20090.qmail-GOr6M1UduhqA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051015165400.20090.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: B B wrote: > If this process is important enough to hide now how > about in the future? Imagine you are charged with a > crime and the presenting of the evidence against you > causes the exposure of the methods used to obtain the > evidence, will the prosecution be allowed to present > "confidential evidence"? Evidence hidden from you! I think this Sept. 20 article from Wired illustrates your point: "Secrecy Power Sinks Patent Case" http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68894,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5 "After a year of pretrial wrangling, the case had progressed to the point that Schultz could start subpoenaing documents to support his claim, when the government intervened to assert the state secrets privilege." I'd say that, though the case revolved around a patent (in the US of course!), the government response was rather analogous to hypothetical situation you have illustrated. If presenting evidence in one's defense in a public court was deemed a potential (even!) security risk, I have no doubt that the same (equivalent) executive powers could be exercised over the case here in Canada. Though I may be assigning too much agency to Minister McLelland in this case, I nevertheless hold the opinion that she doesn't seem to think that that same standard of public disclosure should work the other way as well -- if I can be held accountable for my actions by an invisible surveillance system, shouldn't she and her office *at least* be accountable in the making of said system? It seems only reasonable to expect as much from a democratically elected official. Again, the thing that bothers me is that in both the planning stages of this legislation and in the *potential* outcome(s) of this legislation i.e. our hypothetical court case, I as a citizen am deliberately kept out of the loop. If legislators want to or can have it both ways, why can't I? From an economic perspective, if said "organized crime" possess the means to circumvent most surveillance technologies, isn't forcing telcos and ISPs to spend money on building in back-doors and wiretap abilities just throwing good money after bad? Why bother at all? Jamon Camisso -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 23:17:00 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:17:00 -0400 Subject: Running ASP (ick) web pages on Linux Message-ID: <20051015231700.GA7207@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> I have to put up a few ASP web pages. I've rather not rewrite them, if possible. Is there an Apache module that I can use to interpret them, or do I have to a) install another web server or b) convert/rewrite the code? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 23:42:00 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:42:00 -0400 Subject: Running ASP (ick) web pages on Linux In-Reply-To: <20051015231700.GA7207-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051015231700.GA7207@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510151642y2a0b11ffs6f97ea8772919c3a@mail.gmail.com> > I have to put up a few ASP web pages. I've rather not rewrite them, if > possible. Is there an Apache module that I can use to interpret them, > or do I have to a) install another web server or b) convert/rewrite the > code? Thanks. Never used it, but a perl solution might be Apache::ASP http://search.cpan.org/~chamas/Apache-ASP-2.59/lib/Bundle/Apache/ASP.pm -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 23:48:09 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:48:09 -0400 Subject: Running ASP (ick) web pages on Linux In-Reply-To: <20051015231700.GA7207-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051015231700.GA7207@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <43519539.40105@istop.com> ASP is for Windows only. Yes, there are ways around but none of them is actually good. In particular, if you are going to use let say MSSQL - forget rather. In other cases - may be you can, and often it makes sense to choose a unix server instead of windows one. This might be helpfull: http://erwin.terong.com/2001/12/25/migrating-asp-from-microsoft-iis-to-linux/ Chili!Soft offers solution. zb. William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have to put up a few ASP web pages. I've rather not rewrite them, if > possible. Is there an Apache module that I can use to interpret them, > or do I have to a) install another web server or b) convert/rewrite the > code? Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:22:36 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:22:36 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have been working on testing my backup program on different >> distributions (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I wanted >> advice on which distributions I should test next. >> >> So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do >> you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I >> couldn't test them all). >> >> I have Mandrake, > > > Now called Mandriva. Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to be for sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has changed) on linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. >> Slackware and Ubuntu up next. If anyone knows of a list of Linux >> distributions by popularity that would also be a great help. > > > Gentoo seems popular. > > See for more info and rankings. Gentoo has been added (downloaded and burned already) and I will test this week. Thanks for the link and the suggestion! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:24:51 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:24:51 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <434ED279.5090004-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <434ED279.5090004@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43519DD3.7050804@alteeve.com> James Knott wrote: > Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > >>FreeBSD is a must! I'd be happy to assist with that. Same goes for Mac >>OSX. > > > Don't forget CP/M. ;-) Something tells me CP/M doesn't support autodetecting of USB devices being added or removed. :P Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:24:07 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:24:07 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43519DA7.8040004@alteeve.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > FreeBSD is a must! I'd be happy to assist with that. Same goes for Mac > OSX. > > Cheers, > > TAA FreeBSD 5.11 is downloaded and burned. I may take you up on both offers given my (not complete) lack of experience with both. I would very much love to say for certain that the program runs on both BSD and OSX! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:30:44 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:30:44 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <43519D4C.1080707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200510152030.44489.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 15 October 2005 20:22, Madison Kelly wrote: > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I have been working on testing my backup program on different > >> distributions (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I wanted > >> advice on which distributions I should test next. > >> > >> So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do > >> you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I > >> couldn't test them all). > >> > >> I have Mandrake, > > > > Now called Mandriva. > > Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to be for > sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has changed) on > linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. Mandriva 2006 looks like a very good distro. It just came out and Club members (sponsors) can download it. But I wouldn't be surprised to see it as a DVD in a Linux Mag issue soon. > >> Slackware and Ubuntu up next. If anyone knows of a list of Linux > >> distributions by popularity that would also be a great help. > > > > Gentoo seems popular. > > > > See for more info and rankings. > > Gentoo has been added (downloaded and burned already) and I will test > this week. Thanks for the link and the suggestion! > > Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:49:43 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:49:43 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <434ECA62.2010408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510151749l4842ae36y8cfa91a3a601e4be@mail.gmail.com> > So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do > you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I > couldn't test them all). (ducks...) that other OS[1]. [1] with Cygwin of course. (whew ;-) It's at http://www.cygwin.com/ if anybody else has the luxury of using 'doze at work and wants to try it. I wanna try it, but I dunno when I'll get a chance. If Fedora's covered, RH*L (RHEL, CentOS) should be too. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 00:59:19 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:59:19 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510151749l4842ae36y8cfa91a3a601e4be-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <99a6c38f0510151749l4842ae36y8cfa91a3a601e4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4351A5E7.8000905@alteeve.com> psema4 wrote: >> So, what are the main distributions out there or what distribution do >>you think is worth the time to test against (there are so many I >>couldn't test them all). > > > (ducks...) that other OS[1]. > > [1] with Cygwin of course. (whew ;-) > > It's at http://www.cygwin.com/ if anybody else has the luxury of using > 'doze at work and wants to try it. I wanna try it, but I dunno when I'll > get a chance. > > If Fedora's covered, RH*L (RHEL, CentOS) should be too. I've been debating testing against Cygwin... My laptop came with a win2k license that I have never used so maybe I'll try but I will wait until I have tested the other major distributions on native POSIX-style OS' first. Thanks for the heads-up on CentOS, I am actually d/l'ing the latest version as I write this to test but it sounds like it should be a snap. Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 04:38:07 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:38:07 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <20051012202804.GB1494-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/12/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Just because it is being used doesn't make it a great language for the > job. Lots of people use java and I am quite sure for most of the purposes > there are better language choices. By the same token, "good enough" can often be good enough. If you try to construct the "ideal" language for each sort of application, you're liable to wind up with FORTH or with someone that yacc's every problem to death, creating Yet Another Language for anyone customizing the system to learn. There are a number of langages around which there has grown enough "infrastructure" for them to be pretty usable for a pretty wide set of applications, whether they are forcibly 'ideal' or not. Java is certainly one of them. The set that I'd think of would include: - C, for sure, as there are boatloads of libraries (GNOME being probably the most extensive) and secondary tools (yacc/flex/bison/...) - C++ (which has similar huge sets of libraries and additional tools) - Common Lisp (where there's *some* weakness for GUI tools, but there's a LOT built into the base language that, in other languages, would be in extended libraries). You can get SQL mappings to access most popular databases, there are plenty of web tools, and such. You can extend the language via macros if there's a need to create custom quasi-languages. - OCAML has attracted enough libraries and parser generators and such that people can build sophisticated systems using it. - GNU Ada includes a sophisticated set of libraries including bindings to various databases, GUI toolkits, web tools, and such. An interesting bit is that it handles complex string parsing via a library that provides equivalent functionality to SNOBOL, a noted language of yesteryear. - Perl and Python and Ruby and PHP have attracted plenty o libraries which combine with native string handling to make them pretty easily adaptable to do lots of stuff... Amongst these, it's arguable that Java and BASIC are a bit less powerful as they haven't been quite as big on providing parsing tools, but the sets of libraries for doing DBMS and GUI stuff have generally been big enough and the "neato development environments" tempting enough that people find them suitable for what THEY regard as "general purpose" work. Someone who claims any of these are suitable for THEIR purposes is quite likely to be right. All of them *are* compiled languages (whether that extends to it being native object code or not), and are quite likely to be fast enough if the expected bottlenecks can be expected to be: a) User interfacing (where the user has to move mouse or type something to have things proceed) b) String processing (which can harness high speed compiled libraries) c) Web processing (where the language can probably saturate bandwidth unless you have a big pipe) d) Database processing (where disk I/O is probably the slow part) "Best" is always in the eye of the beholder. These can probably all be "sufficiently suitable" for someone skilled with each... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 14:47:43 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <50048.207.188.67.74.1129474063.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Since software has a long life - often longer than expected - the issue of readability and maintainability of the code can be critically important. There is an argument that this eliminates certain 'write only' languages, regardless of their power and support. In the interest of not starting a language war, I won't mention any language names... Peter > On 10/12/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> Just because it is being used doesn't make it a great language for the >> job. Lots of people use java and I am quite sure for most of the >> purposes >> there are better language choices. > > By the same token, "good enough" can often be good enough. > > If you try to construct the "ideal" language for each sort of > application, you're liable to wind up with FORTH or with someone that > yacc's every problem to death, creating Yet Another Language for > anyone customizing the system to learn. > > There are a number of langages around which there has grown enough > "infrastructure" for them to be pretty usable for a pretty wide set of > applications, whether they are forcibly 'ideal' or not. Java is > certainly one of them. > > The set that I'd think of would include: > - C, for sure, as there are boatloads of libraries (GNOME being > probably the most extensive) and secondary tools (yacc/flex/bison/...) > > - C++ (which has similar huge sets of libraries and additional tools) > > - Common Lisp (where there's *some* weakness for GUI tools, but > there's a LOT built into the base language that, in other languages, > would be in extended libraries). You can get SQL mappings to access > most popular databases, there are plenty of web tools, and such. You > can extend the language via macros if there's a need to create custom > quasi-languages. > > - OCAML has attracted enough libraries and parser generators and such > that people can build sophisticated systems using it. > > - GNU Ada includes a sophisticated set of libraries including bindings > to various databases, GUI toolkits, web tools, and such. An > interesting bit is that it handles complex string parsing via a > library that provides equivalent functionality to SNOBOL, a noted > language of yesteryear. > > - Perl and Python and Ruby and PHP have attracted plenty o libraries > which combine with native string handling to make them pretty easily > adaptable to do lots of stuff... > > Amongst these, it's arguable that Java and BASIC are a bit less > powerful as they haven't been quite as big on providing parsing tools, > but the sets of libraries for doing DBMS and GUI stuff have generally > been big enough and the "neato development environments" tempting > enough that people find them suitable for what THEY regard as "general > purpose" work. > > Someone who claims any of these are suitable for THEIR purposes is > quite likely to be right. > > All of them *are* compiled languages (whether that extends to it being > native object code or not), and are quite likely to be fast enough if > the expected bottlenecks can be expected to be: > a) User interfacing (where the user has to move mouse or type > something to have things proceed) > b) String processing (which can harness high speed compiled libraries) > c) Web processing (where the language can probably saturate bandwidth > unless you have a big pipe) > d) Database processing (where disk I/O is probably the slow part) > > "Best" is always in the eye of the beholder. These can probably all > be "sufficiently suitable" for someone skilled with each... > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 19:27:09 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:27:09 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4352A98D.4080106@interlog.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > - GNU Ada includes a sophisticated set of libraries including bindings > to various databases, GUI toolkits, web tools, and such. An > interesting bit is that it handles complex string parsing via a > library that provides equivalent functionality to SNOBOL, a noted > language of yesteryear. A friend of mine knew SNOBOL. I also remember (related?) languages SPITBOL, WATBOL, and I think there were a few other 'BOL' languages around when I used to hang out at the Engineering Annex at UofT. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 19:47:47 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:47:47 -0400 Subject: Idea on which Distros to support In-Reply-To: <43519D4C.1080707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200510161547.47775.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 15, 2005 20:22, Madison Kelly wrote: > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I have been working on testing my backup program on different > >> distributions (so far Debian, Fedora Core and today SUSE) and I > >> wanted advice on which distributions I should test next. > >> > >> So, what are the main distributions out there or what > >> distribution do you think is worth the time to test against > >> (there are so many I couldn't test them all). > >> > >> I have Mandrake, > > > > Now called Mandriva. > > Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to > be for sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has > changed) on linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. , bottom right of the matrix, click on the "2006 Official, Move..." link and you will have a plethora of mirrors you can choose from. Mandriva 2006.0 is the current version. The ISO is only available to paid subscribers for the time being. It will be made available to the general public in a few weeks. In the meantime, you are certainly free to either do a net install or download the contents of the ISO, create your own ISO image, and burn your own installation CDs. Do not bother packaging anything for 10.1 or 2005 (a.k.a. 10.2) because they have both been superseded by 2006. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 21:22:17 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:22:17 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: <4352A98D.4080106-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4352A98D.4080106@interlog.com> Message-ID: On 10/16/05, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > - GNU Ada includes a sophisticated set of libraries including bindings > > to various databases, GUI toolkits, web tools, and such. An > > interesting bit is that it handles complex string parsing via a > > library that provides equivalent functionality to SNOBOL, a noted > > language of yesteryear. > > A friend of mine knew SNOBOL. I also remember (related?) languages SPITBOL, > WATBOL, and I think there were a few other 'BOL' languages around when I used > to hang out at the Engineering Annex at UofT. Something I have heard claimed (I do not recall where) is that the Unix I/O capabilities were essentially derived from the file manipulation API of SNOBOL. It was dying and getting unavailable when I was in university, so I wound up not being particularly exposed to it. It's obviously still available... Can anyone confirm or deny that? -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 07:46:10 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 03:46:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not like Al-Qaeda or the Mafia is too stupid to figure out PGP. However, I wish I could say that I fail to see the point of this legislation. The reason this keeps coming up is because the CRIA wants all the information on major P2P users handed to them on a silver platter. Our helpful heritage minister is working very hard to make their lives as easy as possible. Fortunately we happen to have a few 800lbs gorillas in our corner. These new wiretapping features will cost money to implement, and Rogers and Bell don't want that eating into their profit margins. So they'll oppose it, supposedly to protect our privacy (and we should all cheer "we love you, telecom monopolies!" until this is over). So who's written to their MP about this already? -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 07:53:01 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 03:53:01 -0400 Subject: Running ASP (ick) web pages on Linux In-Reply-To: <20051015231700.GA7207-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051015231700.GA7207@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On 10/15/05, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I have to put up a few ASP web pages. I've rather not rewrite them, if > possible. Is there an Apache module that I can use to interpret them, > or do I have to a) install another web server or b) convert/rewrite the > code? Thanks. Is it ASP or ASP.Net? If it's the latter, the Mono project has both an Apache module and a stand-alone web server that will run pretty much anything that's thrown at it: http://www.mono-project.com/ASP.NET In response to (ick): I'm not a huge fan of Visual Studio or ASP.Net, but I have to say in terms of knocking together a web app really quickly, it's not so bad. The combination of C# and a visual forms designer made everything relatively painless, at least for small projects. Plus the results worked fine in Firefox. Just my $0.02. -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 12:59:55 2005 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:59:55 -0400 Subject: Running ASP (ick) web pages on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <20051015231700.GA7207@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4386c5b20510170559r6ce1c1aew949d4c6719c9b3f1@mail.gmail.com> > In response to (ick): > I'm not a huge fan of Visual Studio or ASP.Net, but I have to say in > terms of knocking together a web app really quickly, it's not so bad. > The combination of C# and a visual forms designer made everything > relatively painless, at least for small projects. Plus the results > worked fine in Firefox. Just my $0.02. Actually, if you want a fast way to knock together a web app, and steer clear of the Dark Side, Ruby on Rails is utterly amazing. I'm learning it now, but as a PHP/MySQL developer, this is going to knock your socks off. http://www.rubyonrails.com/ Check out the video for a live demo: http://www.rubyonrails.com/media/video/rails_take2_with_sound.mov Cheers, Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 13:37:56 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:37:56 +0000 Subject: PHP debugging in Trustudio/Eclipse In-Reply-To: <50048.207.188.67.74.1129474063.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <50048.207.188.67.74.1129474063.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4353A934.4000007@cheapersafer.com> Anyone tried out Eclipse with the Trustudio plugin for PHP? It seems to work ok, but the documentation on things like setting variables during a debug session is non-existent. Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 16:28:08 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:28:08 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <43519D4C.1080707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Madison Kelly wrote: > Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to be > for sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has > changed) on linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. Much too old. Mandriva 2006 is out and it's extremely nice. It installed without a slip on both my laptop and Athlon64 server. 64-bit Ubuntu crashed trying to install on the server. Mandriva is the first-ever distro that doesn't have my Thinkpad crash when inserted or removed from its docking station. And it comes with OpenOffice 2.0. The free download is right now limited to "Mandriva Club" members, and even that limited availability appears to be saturating both their FTP sites and their Torrent network. The website "mandriva.com" is all about the commercial products. The site "mandrivalinux.com", while still encouraging people to support them by buying products or Club memberships, still offers free downloads via FTP or torrent: http://www1.mandrivalinux.com/en/ftp.php3 Right now the only thing available for free download to non-club members is 10.1, but don't bother with that. The jump to 2006 is well worth the wait; it will be available to non-club members in a few weeks according to the website. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 17:28:07 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <4353D118.2000404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to be for >> sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has changed) on >> linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. > > Much too old. That's considerably overstating the case. Many people are still using that, and even older versions. I have 8.2 happily running on one box. [snip] > Right now the only thing available for free download to non-club members is > 10.1, but don't bother with that. The jump to 2006 is well worth the wait; it > will be available to non-club members in a few weeks according to the > website. I generally notice very little difference moving from one version to the next. LE2005, a.k.a. 10.2 (which I use on my main box) is still available (from and other places if not available on the Mandriva site). -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================== Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 18:19:14 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:19:14 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <4353D118.2000404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510171419.15438.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 17, 2005 12:28, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > > Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems to > > be for sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much > > has changed) on linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on > > it. > > Much too old. > > Mandriva 2006 is out and it's extremely nice. It installed without > a slip on both my laptop and Athlon64 server. 64-bit Ubuntu crashed > trying to install on the server. Mandriva is the first-ever distro > that doesn't have my Thinkpad crash when inserted or removed from > its docking station. And it comes with OpenOffice 2.0. > > The free download is right now limited to "Mandriva Club" members, > and even that limited availability appears to be saturating both > their FTP sites and their Torrent network. > > The website "mandriva.com" is all about the commercial products. > The site "mandrivalinux.com", while still encouraging people to > support them by buying products or Club memberships, still offers > free downloads via FTP or torrent: > > http://www1.mandrivalinux.com/en/ftp.php3 > > Right now the only thing available for free download to non-club > members is 10.1, but don't bother with that. 2005 Limited Edition (a.k.a. 10.2) has been available for free download since sometime in the spring so it is still available, though I agree with you that 2006 is the one to go with. > The jump to 2006 is > well worth the wait; it will be available to non-club members in a > few weeks according to the website. You do not have to wait if you are not a Mandriva Club member. There are options. First, you could do an ftp install. Second, you could download the contents of the 2006 CD, which is freely available on all the mirrors, and burn your own CD/DVD and install from that. Finally, you can do a minimal installation of 2005 LE and then do a urpmi upgrade by pointing the installation at the 2006 urpmi repositories. To do a minimal 2055 LE installation, you only need the first ISO. 1. Boot from the 2005 LE CD1 that you burned from the ISO. 2. Select custom installation. 2. Deselect every application category in the package selection step and select the checkbox to indicate that you want to select individual packages. 3. You should be presented with a form that asks if you want to do a minimal installation with urpmi (recommended) or without. Select "with urpmi". 4. Let the installer do its thing and reboot. 5. Get a root shell and type: urpmi.removemedia -a 6. Go to , find a mirror that suits you, and select the various repositories you want to add. I would add main, contrib, and update for the time being. 7. Copy and paste the string that the form generates into the root shell. That will take a few minutes as it downloads the urpmi metadata from the three repositories. 8. You are now ready to upgrade to 2006.0. Type: urpmi --auto-select --auto and let it do its thing. When it is finished, you should have a working 2006.0 minimal installation. You can then install whatever you like by using urpmi, e.g. urpmi kde, would install KDE and all its dependencies. This is the first version of Mandriva that we see some of the influence of Connectiva on the distro. One example of that influence is SmartPM . I like the idea of a package manager that is agnostic to the package format. Something else that could prove to be very useful when having to test something on multiple distros is Xen. You can use whatever you like for the dom0 (the host in VMWare parlance) and run any distro as a domU (a guest in VMWare parlance). I am running Xen on Mandriva and have hosted Mandriva, Debian, Fedora, and Gentoo as guests. None of the above suggests that you should not be a Club member if you want to support a very polished distro. The only thing that comes close to the polish of Mandriva is SuSE but I prefer Mandriva, amongst other things, for the friendly support that one can find on #mandriva. Disclosure: I do not own Mandriva stock nor am I affiliated with Mandriva in any way other than as a very happy user and contributor. I also have "voice" on #mandriva, for what it is worth and not only use Mandriva on desktops but on servers for hosting domains and applications. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 20:42:26 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:26 -0400 Subject: OT: Tuesday Globe -- Ottawa and Wiretap access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510171342oc996f41n1cec5f30f85ffe40@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Mike Newman wrote: > The reason this keeps coming up is because the CRIA wants all the > information on major P2P users handed to them on a silver platter. Our > helpful heritage minister is working very hard to make their lives as > easy as possible. Nice post. I almost feel really stupid at having not seen that particular conclusion. Paticularly after the lawsuits the RIAA has been pushing recently. My thinking when the word first got out was the entirely along the lines of how it was described... as a "national security" thing. On that front, I'm of mixed mind. This suggestion however has certainly thrown a new light on it though. I would not be at all surpised to see that the CRIA is involved in this somehow now. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 20:55:32 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 Message-ID: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Planning us already underway for Linux World / Network World 2006 which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at the Metro Convention Centre, North Building (down on Front Street by the CN Tower). One of the questions that the show organizers have raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The show organizers would be happy to supply some free evening conference rooms, and provide some AV equipment. I personally have some mixed feelings about this idea, but I promised that I would toss this out to the membership and pass on what I hear over the next few days. So, feedback anyone? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 21:02:40 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:02:40 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510171402i31ad6cb2x9948cc32672da6c6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Colin McGregor wrote: > Planning us already underway for Linux World / Network > World 2006 which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at the > Metro Convention Centre, North Building (down on Front > Street by the CN Tower). > > One of the questions that the show organizers have > raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the > April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The > show organizers would be happy to supply some free > evening conference rooms, and provide some AV > equipment. I personally have some mixed feelings about > this idea, but I promised that I would toss this out > to the membership and pass on what I hear over the > next few days. > > So, feedback anyone? It sounds like a great opportunity for people who've never been to a LUG meeting to see what one's like. Particularly, the idea gives local business reps a chance to network directly with members of the local LUGs, which would be good I think. What kind of mixed feelings are you having? -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 21:14:15 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510171402i31ad6cb2x9948cc32672da6c6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510171402i31ad6cb2x9948cc32672da6c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051017211415.83420.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- psema4 wrote: > On 10/17/05, Colin McGregor > wrote: > > Planning us already underway for Linux World / > Network > > World 2006 which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at > the > > Metro Convention Centre, North Building (down on > Front > > Street by the CN Tower). > > > > One of the questions that the show organizers have > > raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting > the > > April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". > The > > show organizers would be happy to supply some free > > evening conference rooms, and provide some AV > > equipment. I personally have some mixed feelings > about > > this idea, but I promised that I would toss this > out > > to the membership and pass on what I hear over the > > next few days. > > > > So, feedback anyone? > > It sounds like a great opportunity for people who've > never been to a > LUG meeting to see what one's like. Particularly, > the idea gives > local business reps a chance to network directly > with members of the > local LUGs, which would be good I think. > > What kind of mixed feelings are you having? I agree that doing something at the show would be EXCELLENT. My concern comes back to what Drew noted when the idea of moving GTALUG away from the University of Toronto was shot down. The key point was how many people would drop out from going to GTALUG all together. As in, if we did a GTALUG/NewTLUG meeting at the Metro Convention Centre, would it just be ignored, and people not goto any meeting in month in April? Alternatively would people just show up at the usual meeting time/place regardless of what was announced? Points to be considered. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 21:53:00 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:53:00 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> Colin McGregor wrote: >Planning us already underway for Linux World / Network >World 2006 which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at the >Metro Convention Centre, North Building (down on Front >Street by the CN Tower). > > Well, that's better than the "over the train tracks and down fourteen escalators" south building... >One of the questions that the show organizers have >raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the >April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The >show organizers would be happy to supply some free >evening conference rooms, and provide some AV >equipment. I personally have some mixed feelings about >this idea, but I promised that I would toss this out >to the membership and pass on what I hear over the >next few days. > >So, feedback anyone? > > I don't think there's much good to having the ?ber-geek TLUG at the show, but I see great value in a NewTLUG meeting there. Trade shows attract vendors, business users and the new-to-Linux. Hardcore techies IMO tend not to like them. Certainly the conference topics that organizers have done -- which indicate the tone and desired audience -- lean towards business and newbie issues. Having a meeting that introduces newcomers to the local user group scene, talking at a level designed for open source neophytes, is exactly why NewTLUG was created. On the tradeshow floor, the talk will be all software, and vendors offering to simplify and handhold and all that. For a NewTLUG meeting, get some speakers who won't just talk tech, and do instead of human interest. Maybe a talk of Linux and open source in the GTA, the history of TLUG (which is one of the oldest LUGs), something that will help show off the friendliness of the group rather than just harp on the tech expertise. Lots of time for Q&A. I suspect after a day of show-floor walking, attendees will have had their fill of tech experts. Perhaps the meeting could be held for an hour or so after the show closes, moving to one of the Front Street restaurants for anyone still interested in a less formal setting in which to meet the group. Just my opinion, - Evan PS: All bets are off if the primary purpose of the meeting is hijacked to sell memberships. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 22:19:59 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 17 Oct 2005 18:19:59 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Colin McGregor writes: > One of the questions that the show organizers have raised can be boiled > down to "What about shifting the April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the > show?". The show organizers would be happy to supply some free evening > conference rooms, and provide some AV equipment. I personally have some > mixed feelings about this idea, but I promised that I would toss this out > to the membership and pass on what I hear over the next few days. > So, feedback anyone? People kinda go to NewTLUG vs TLUG because it _isn't_ downtown. How about just having an extra TLUG meeting? TTYL, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 22:23:13 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:23:13 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <43542451.6010605@telly.org> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >>> I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how much has changed) on >>> linuxiso.com and I will test out my program on it. >> >> Much too old. > > > That's considerably overstating the case. Many people are still > using that, and even older versions. I have 8.2 happily running on > one box. Sure, but would you choose 8.2 for a new install? Most distributions are stable enough that older versions are "happily running" for a lot of people. My suggestion is simply that for someone like Madison who is looking to do a first install of Mandriva, 10.1 is now two releases old. Your first view of a distro should be the best one you can get. > I generally notice very little difference moving from one version > to the next. As has been said, 2006 is the first release that brings together Mandriva, Conectiva and Lycoris. Mandriva claims this release to be the first Linux distro to be "certified" for Centrino, ending previous grief over support for the Intel wireless system (though it's still not 100% open source). Yes, I know that Centrino worked on previous releases, but never seamlessly. Same with things like hibernation or the ATI/NVidia drivers. There are a lot of things that in previous releases could be "made to work", that in this release just work. Many of the changes are subtle but still worthwhile. But most importantly, the ghastly "evil clown penguin" bootup theme of Mandriva 10.2 is now gone :-). - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 22:39:43 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:39:43 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510171839.44378.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 17, 2005 13:28, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Un, but I don't seem to be able to download Mandriva (it seems > >> to be for sale only now). I found Mandrake 10.1 (not sure how > >> much has changed) on linuxiso.com and I will test out my program > >> on it. > > > > Much too old. > > That's considerably overstating the case. Many people are still > using that, and even older versions. I have 8.2 happily running > on one box. You cannot get updates for Mandrake 8.2 any more. The product lifetime policy for all Mandriva products can be found here: . 2006 is not on that chart yet since it is so new. Note the EOL for 10.1 and 10.2 are not that far into the future. > [snip] > > > Right now the only thing available for free download to non-club > > members is 10.1, but don't bother with that. The jump to 2006 is > > well worth the wait; it will be available to non-club members in > > a few weeks according to the website. > > I generally notice very little difference moving from one > version to the next. I have noticed only improvements especially on desktop machines. The version of KDE that came with 8.2 looks like it is out of the Stone Age compared to the version in 2006. If you want modern versions of Python, PostgreSQL, Apache, Qt, KDE, and various other packages, the latest and greatest is bound to have those. You can certainly install all that stuff from source in an older version of Mandrake but then you no longer have Mandrake. You have a custom distro for which there is one maintainer, you. > LE2005, a.k.a. 10.2 (which I use on my main box) is still > available (from > 586/> and other places if not available on the Mandriva site). -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 23:12:19 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051017231219.GA2004@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:55:32PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Planning us already underway for Linux World / Network World 2006 > which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at the Metro Convention Centre, > North Building (down on Front Street by the CN Tower). > > One of the questions that the show organizers have raised can be > boiled down to "What about shifting the April GTALUG and NewTLUG > meetings to the show?". The show organizers would be happy to supply > some free evening conference rooms, and provide some AV equipment. I > personally have some mixed feelings about this idea, but I promised > that I would toss this out to the membership and pass on what I hear > over the next few days. > > So, feedback anyone? Sounds okey to me. See what Gordon/Drew/Bill have to say. But, I want to see business head prevail on this issue, since people come to tradeshow to do business. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 00:06:22 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:06:22 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <43541D3C.8090502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I don't think there's much good to having the ?ber-geek TLUG at the > show, but I see great value in a NewTLUG meeting there. > > Trade shows attract vendors, business users and the new-to-Linux. > Hardcore techies IMO tend not to like them. Certainly the conference > topics that organizers have done -- which indicate the tone and desired > audience -- lean towards business and newbie issues. > > Having a meeting that introduces newcomers to the local user group > scene, talking at a level designed for open source neophytes, is exactly > why NewTLUG was created. > > On the tradeshow floor, the talk will be all software, and vendors > offering to simplify and handhold and all that. For a NewTLUG meeting, > get some speakers who won't just talk tech, and do instead of human > interest. Maybe a talk of Linux and open source in the GTA, the history > of TLUG (which is one of the oldest LUGs), something that will help show > off the friendliness of the group rather than just harp on the tech > expertise. Lots of time for Q&A. I suspect after a day of show-floor > walking, attendees will have had their fill of tech experts. > > Perhaps the meeting could be held for an hour or so after the show > closes, moving to one of the Front Street restaurants for anyone still > interested in a less formal setting in which to meet the group. > > Just my opinion, > > - Evan > > PS: All bets are off if the primary purpose of the meeting is hijacked > to sell memberships. I agree completely with all points made... even the PS. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 19:34:31 2005 From: jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (J. Schaap) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:34:31 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <4353D118.2000404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <1129577671.23808.12.camel@lnx2.bobach.org> Mandriva 2006 is already available on the public mirrors (non-members) since October 13. Last Friday I upgraded from 2005 with "urpmi --auto-select" from a European mirror (nluug.nl). J. Schaap On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 12:28 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > http://www1.mandrivalinux.com/en/ftp.php3 > > Right now the only thing available for free download to non-club members > is 10.1, but don't bother with that. The jump to 2006 is well worth the > wait; it will be available to non-club members in a few weeks according > to the website. > > - Evan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 03:04:15 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:04:15 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <200510171839.44378.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <200510171839.44378.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051018030415.GA23547@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 06:39:43PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On October 17, 2005 13:28, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > I generally notice very little difference moving from one > > version to the next. > > I have noticed only improvements especially on desktop machines. The > version of KDE that came with 8.2 looks like it is out of the Stone > Age compared to the version in 2006. If you want modern versions of > Python, PostgreSQL, Apache, Qt, KDE, and various other packages, the > latest and greatest is bound to have those. You can certainly install > all that stuff from source in an older version of Mandrake but then > you no longer have Mandrake. You have a custom distro for which there > is one maintainer, you. You notice the difference much more clearly when you move back to an older version, far more than you notice the improvement moving forward. You can get used to improvements incrementaly, but you lose all of them at once when you go back. I remember not seeing much improvement moving from a 68000 to a 68020 processor for a Unix system; but then after working on it for a few days and then going back to the 68000, the slowdown was painful. I've noticed the same phenomenon many times since then. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 02:41:08 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:41:08 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <43541D3C.8090502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > PS: All bets are off if the primary purpose of the meeting is hijacked > to sell memberships. Do the LUG members receive a free or discounted enterance fee? If not, then how many members are going to show up? And what's the benefit to us anyway (in the general sense)? Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 02:51:02 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:51:02 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> Message-ID: <43546316.4050001@rogers.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> PS: All bets are off if the primary purpose of the meeting is hijacked >> to sell memberships. > > Do the LUG members receive a free or discounted enterance fee? If not, > then how many members are going to show up? And what's the benefit to us > anyway (in the general sense)? Normally, everyone can get free admission. You just have to apply. However, that's just into the free stuff. It does not get you into the paid presentations. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 02:56:56 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:56:56 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <43546316.4050001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> <43546316.4050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: Yeah .. I know. The trade show is free and mostly useless (from previous experience). I don't know how use(ful|less) the actual conference is. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, James Knott wrote: > Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> PS: All bets are off if the primary purpose of the meeting is hijacked > >> to sell memberships. > > > > Do the LUG members receive a free or discounted enterance fee? If not, > > then how many members are going to show up? And what's the benefit to us > > anyway (in the general sense)? > > Normally, everyone can get free admission. You just have to apply. > However, that's just into the free stuff. It does not get you into the > paid presentations. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 02:58:45 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:58:45 -0400 Subject: Mandriva 2006 (was Re:Idea on which Distros to support) In-Reply-To: <20051018030415.GA23547-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <200510171839.44378.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051018030415.GA23547@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <200510172258.45392.marc@lijour.net> On Monday 17 October 2005 23:04, John Macdonald wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 06:39:43PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > On October 17, 2005 13:28, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > > > I generally notice very little difference moving from one > > > version to the next. > > > > I have noticed only improvements especially on desktop machines. The > > version of KDE that came with 8.2 looks like it is out of the Stone > > Age compared to the version in 2006. If you want modern versions of > > Python, PostgreSQL, Apache, Qt, KDE, and various other packages, the > > latest and greatest is bound to have those. You can certainly install > > all that stuff from source in an older version of Mandrake but then > > you no longer have Mandrake. You have a custom distro for which there > > is one maintainer, you. > > You notice the difference much more clearly when you move back > to an older version, far more than you notice the improvement > moving forward. You can get used to improvements incrementaly, > but you lose all of them at once when you go back. > > I remember not seeing much improvement moving from a 68000 to > a 68020 processor for a Unix system; but then after working > on it for a few days and then going back to the 68000, the > slowdown was painful. Experience the fast boot in 2006. Amazing! Plus the look is really something else, among the many good new things... > > I've noticed the same phenomenon many times since then. > > -- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 04:08:34 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:08:34 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> I joined tlug at last years show. I havnt been to a meeting, its just not convient (live in Oakville). But I will join up again next year even if I don't go to a single meeting in my first membership year, as I just see it as a donation to the cause. BUT if the meeting were at the show!! well I'd be there! Can't speak to how many members are like me .. but one might find a meeting at the show could be very well attended? -tl On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Colin McGregor wrote: > Planning us already underway for Linux World / Network > World 2006 which will be held April 24-26, 2006 at the > Metro Convention Centre, North Building (down on Front > Street by the CN Tower). > > One of the questions that the show organizers have > raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the > April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The > show organizers would be happy to supply some free > evening conference rooms, and provide some AV > equipment. I personally have some mixed feelings about > this idea, but I promised that I would toss this out > to the membership and pass on what I hear over the > next few days. > > So, feedback anyone? > > Colin McGregor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 04:34:12 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:34:12 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> <43546316.4050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43547B44.70604@telly.org> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >Yeah .. I know. The trade show is free and mostly useless (from previous >experience). > Whether the show is useless or not depends on your expectations. If you go expecting to find people with kernel smarts news on the next big OSS development project you'll be badly disappointed. If you're looking to see what vendors have done in the past year to make open source more palatable to the mainstream you'll find that in abundance. If you want to see how *you* can make money in open source, sometimes tradeshows offer good opportunities to either partner with existing participants or get some ideas of your own. If you're an open source advocate, a tradeshow is a place to counter the FUD that has inhibited its growth, since shows attract plenty of the curious and tire-kickers. Since a user group is not typically seen as a vendor, LUGs are often valued for the independence of their responses since they don't care if the best solution to a problem makes someone money. Having said that, TLUG does have a bit of a reputation from the past of being little more than a hangout for Linux "consultants" who can't afford their own booths. I would urge the organizers of the next show's participation to have a policy against having any brochures or business cards around that aren't directly related to the collective. If someone wants to talk up their own for-profit capabilities, that's fine but it must take second place to the goals of advancing the interest of {T|GTA|NewT}LUG, which is (very generally stated) the growth of the community. Also, shows tend to be well attended by the media, so announcements made at the show have immediate reach to reporters in the field. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 05:54:51 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:54:51 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source Message-ID: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> I'm doing a little research, and I'm wondering if anyone here can help with this: which universities in Canada are friendliest to open source and which are the most hostile? There can be many factors in this, including (but not limited to): - the amount OSS is taught in CompSci - Awareness and support of open development models outside CompSci - the amount of FOSS used internally in administration - the scale of cheap-software deals struck with Microsoft - the level of freedom/suppression of open source advocacy - specific instructors who are particularly friendly or hostile I'm looking for any data I can find on any and all Canadian universities. Feel free to reply to me personally or to the list as you feel appropriate. All confidences will be honoured. Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 06:30:21 2005 From: stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Stewart Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:30:21 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4353D118.2000404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Does anyone know anything about this? Stew **** Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE From: shanaz meghji Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) To: Parin Visanji E-MAIL SURCHARGE The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation Canada Post will be attempting to bill email users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working to prevent this legislation from becoming law. The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed Canada Post's recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to Canada Post for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the Canadian Government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of beaurocratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from Mississauga to Scarborough. If Canada Post Corporation is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in Canada. One back-bencher, Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Toronto Star that called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999 Editorial). Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this email to all Canadians on your list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their MP and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp QC Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law 216 Bay Street Toronto, ON MlL 3C6 GULAM RAJANI -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 06:39:11 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:39:11 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4354988F.9070605@telly.org> Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? > This is a well-known and longtime Internet hoax. There is no MP named Tony Schnell. There is no lawyer named Richard Stepp. Bills pending in parliament do not have numbers like "602P". Please read this web page for more info: http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/bill602p.asp Don't let this kind of stuff spread. Please let the people who received your original message (and those who sent it to you!) know that this was a hoax. For the future, www.snopes.com is a very good resource in revealing hoaxes, scams and urban legends. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 06:40:02 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:40:02 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: It's a hoax. If you 'send this' in the message, ask Google if it is a hoax :O) Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Stew > **** > > Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE > From: shanaz meghji > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) > To: Parin Visanji > > E-MAIL SURCHARGE > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the > Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation > that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation > Canada Post will be attempting to bill email users out of "alternate > postage fees". > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge > on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at > source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. > > Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working to prevent this > legislation from becoming law. > > The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to the > proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in revenue per year. > > You may have noticed Canada Post's recent ad campaign "There is > nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 > pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual > would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, > above and beyond their regular Internet costs. > > Note that this would be money paid directly to Canada Post for a > service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is > democracy and non-interference. If the Canadian Government is permitted > to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows > where it will end. > > You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of > beaurocratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a > letter to be delivered from Mississauga to Scarborough. > > If Canada Post Corporation is allowed to tinker with email, it will > mark the end of the "free" Internet in Canada. One back-bencher, > Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar > per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the > government's proposed email charges. > > Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the > only exception being the Toronto Star that called the idea of email > surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999 > Editorial). Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this > email to all Canadians on your list and tell your friends and > relatives to write to their MP and say "No!" to Bill 602P. > > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp QC > Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law > 216 Bay Street Toronto, ON MlL 3C6 > > > GULAM RAJANI > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 07:06:08 2005 From: stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Stewart Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:06:08 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <43549EE0.4060409@eol.ca> Gotta. Sorry I was being lazy. S. ***** Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >It's a hoax. If you 'send this' in the message, ask Google if it is a >hoax :O) > >Cheers, > >TAA > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 02:55:30 2005 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:55:30 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051018025530.5a477f5c@mail.look.ca> 1) There is no such law firm (Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law) listed in the Toronto business section of Bell Canada. 2) There is no one with the last name of "Stepp" (Richard Stepp QC or any other whatsoever) listed in the residential pages of Toronto. 3) A very similar e-mail has been circulating for many years, and is a hoax. 4) Any e-mail asking you to send it to everyone in your address book is very likely to be a hoax. 5) I hope that you are a newcomer to Internet e-mail, because an experienced person should not be so gullible, falling for archaic hoaxes. 6) I think that there is a Web site, "Snopes" something or other, that has a collection of hoaxes. Have a look through it. At 02:30 AM 2005/10/18 -0400, Stewart Sinclair wrote: >Does anyone know anything about this? > >Stew >**** > >Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE >From: shanaz meghji >Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) >To: Parin Visanji > >E-MAIL SURCHARGE > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the >Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation >that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation >Canada Post will be attempting to bill email users out of "alternate >postage fees". > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge >on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at >source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. > > Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working to prevent this >legislation from becoming law. > > The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to the >proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in revenue per year. > > You may have noticed Canada Post's recent ad campaign "There is >nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 >pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual >would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, >above and beyond their regular Internet costs. > > Note that this would be money paid directly to Canada Post for a >service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is >democracy and non-interference. If the Canadian Government is permitted >to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows >where it will end. > > You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of >beaurocratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a >letter to be delivered from Mississauga to Scarborough. > > If Canada Post Corporation is allowed to tinker with email, it will >mark the end of the "free" Internet in Canada. One back-bencher, >Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar >per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the >government's proposed email charges. > > Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the >only exception being the Toronto Star that called the idea of email >surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999 >Editorial). Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this >email to all Canadians on your list and tell your friends and >relatives to write to their MP and say "No!" to Bill 602P. > >Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp QC >Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law >216 Bay Street Toronto, ON MlL 3C6 > > >GULAM RAJANI ================================================ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:10:56 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <43547B44.70604-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43547B44.70604@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051018121056.38452.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Ok, to recap, and hopefully move back on to the key concern here. - Admission to the trade show floor would be free to ALL GTALUG members, the conference tutorials/training sessions however will be carry an entrance fee. - Ted Leslie has noted that he would like to attend some sort of a GTALUG/NewTLUG meeting at the show. This is a real possibility because as noted at the end of the show day we will be able to get one or more of the conference rooms (with some AV equipment) for free. - Some people who live downtown do not like going up to the NewTLUG meetings, and some people who live in the suburbs do not like coming to the University of Toronto because it is so far downtown. Evan Leibovitch has suggested that given the business person mix we could expect to see at Linux World a NewTLUG meeting would be better than a GTALUG meeting to do at the show (and yes a good case could be made for his argument). However one of the attractions for some of the NewTLUG attendees is the non-downtown location, and lets face it the Metro Convention Centre is about as downtown as things get. Now on to the KEY questions: - Do we want to cancel the regular GTALUG meeting and/or the NewTLUG meeting in favour of having one or both of said meetings down at the Metro Convention Centre? Or do we want to do this in addition to our normal meetings? The show organizers have made it clear to me they would like us to change our schedule around and make the show our event in April. While I appreciate the exposure the show can offer GTALUG/NewTLUG, I am at PRESENT unconvinced as to the wisdom of dropping our regular meetings in favour of just doing things at the show... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:32:05 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:32:05 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43541D3C.8090502@telly.org> <43546316.4050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4354EB45.5020400@rogers.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > Yeah .. I know. The trade show is free and mostly useless (from previous > experience). I don't know how use(ful|less) the actual conference is. If all you want to do, is go to the TLUG meeting, why would you need anything more? Also, I have attended some of the free presentations, and some of them were good. At the 2003 show, Novell/SuSE had an excellent presentation. And of course, we can't forget the freebies. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:34:47 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:34:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4354EBE7.3050200@rogers.com> Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Stew > **** > > Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE > From: shanaz meghji > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) > To: Parin Visanji > > E-MAIL SURCHARGE > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the > Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation > that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation > Canada Post will be attempting to bill email users out of "alternate > postage fees". That's an old hoax. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:42:06 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:42:06 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43548E2B.2010506-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> Message-ID: <4354ED9E.3080806@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I'm doing a little research, and I'm wondering if anyone here can help > with this: which universities in Canada are friendliest to open source > and which are the most hostile? > > There can be many factors in this, including (but not limited to): > - the amount OSS is taught in CompSci > - Awareness and support of open development models outside CompSci > - the amount of FOSS used internally in administration > - the scale of cheap-software deals struck with Microsoft > - the level of freedom/suppression of open source advocacy > - specific instructors who are particularly friendly or hostile > > I'm looking for any data I can find on any and all Canadian universities. > Feel free to reply to me personally or to the list as you feel > appropriate. All confidences will be honoured. Here's a couple that are switching to OpenOffice. http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-09/sunflash.20050927.2.html http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-05/sunflash.20040527.1.html And Western is using StarOffice. http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/Network-World/ed798d02-ea8d-429b-8bad-b84ae9385326.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:47:48 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:47:48 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43548E2B.2010506-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> Message-ID: Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I'm doing a little research, and I'm wondering if anyone here can help > with this: which universities in Canada are friendliest to open source > and which are the most hostile? > > There can be many factors in this, including (but not limited to): > - the amount OSS is taught in CompSci > - Awareness and support of open development models outside CompSci > - the amount of FOSS used internally in administration > - the scale of cheap-software deals struck with Microsoft > - the level of freedom/suppression of open source advocacy > - specific instructors who are particularly friendly or hostile Two URLs you might find useful: http://open.utoronto.ca/ http://main.library.utoronto.ca/ Jamon Camisso -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 12:56:04 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 18 Oct 2005 08:56:04 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051018121056.38452.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051018121056.38452.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Colin McGregor writes: > - Do we want to cancel the regular GTALUG meeting and/or the NewTLUG > meeting in favour of having one or both of said meetings down at the Metro > Convention Centre? Or do we want to do this in addition to our normal > meetings? I don't know if Herb Richter is on the list but he calls the shots for NewTLUG. You should contact him. > The show organizers have made it clear to me they would like us to change > our schedule around and make the show our event in April. While I > appreciate the exposure the show can offer GTALUG/NewTLUG, I am at PRESENT > unconvinced as to the wisdom of dropping our regular meetings in favour of > just doing things at the show... That's nice for LW but what benefit does an actual LUG meeting at the show do for {GTA,T,NewT}LUG? If the goal is recruiting new members: paid or just the old kind, doesn't the booth do that (and plugs by anyone giving a talk)? I'm at a loss as to what other goals *LUG would have at the show, too (honestly). Don't get me wrong, though. I like Jai and Bruce and all the people at LW. If the volunteers and will are there, by all means, let's do something. Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 14:30:44 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:44 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051018121056.38452.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43550714.2050401@telly.org> It should be noted that April 25, the fourth Tuesday in April (thus the natural date for NewTLUG meetings), falls during the show. Also, NewTLUG meetings, while not downtown, alternate locations between IBM in the northeast and Seneca at York in the northwest. So at very least, having a regular NewTLUG meeting on its usual date at its usual place hurts people who are (or need to be) at the show who would like to attend. I don't think that having one meeting downtown is going to hurt, and it has the potential to attract new blood. Consider that there might be speakers coming in who would like to attend (Maddog? John Terpstra?) but that we don't want to drag out to the suburbs if they don't know Toronto. G. Matthew Rice wrote: >That's nice for LW but what benefit does an actual LUG meeting at the show do >for {GTA,T,NewT}LUG? > To me, it's mainly an advocacy gig -- providing non-vendor-biased information and FUD-busting to show attendees, an extension of the self-help model that spawned the LUG movement in the first place. Think of a broader goal of growing the community, which is not the exact same thing as growing LUG membership. >If the goal is recruiting new members: paid or just the >old kind, doesn't the booth do that (and plugs by anyone giving a talk)? > Especially if GTALUG is selling memberships, people and potential sponsors can be given an opportunity to see what they're being asked to buy into. Even to those who can't attend, our very willingness to bring the show to the people, so to speak, is a selling point. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 14:34:51 2005 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) =?iso-8859-1?q?Gagn=E9?=) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:34:51 -0400 Subject: 4th Annual Free Software and Open Source Symposium Message-ID: <200510181034.52332.mggagne@salmar.com> Hello everyone, On Monday, October 24th, 2005, from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m, I will be appearing at the York University Campus, in Toronto where I will be giving a presentation at the 4th annual Free Software and Open Source Symposium. The Symposium is a one-day event aimed at bringing together educators and other interested parties to discuss common free software and open source issues, learn new technologies and to promote the use of free and open source software in our classrooms, labs and educational infrastructure. At Seneca College, we think free and open source software are real alternatives. Speakers (beside myself) this year include: Jim McQuillan, Founder and Project Leader of the Linux Terminal Server Project Stephen Downes, Senior Researcher, National Research Council, and Author of OLDaily (Online Learning Daily) Marcus Bornfreund, Director, Creative Commons, Canada Jesse Hirsh, President, Openflows Networks Ltd. . . . and many more. To register, or for more information (including a full list of speakers and the agenda), please visit http://cs.senecac.on.ca/sos/2005/. Help us spread the word! Please forward this email to anyone you think might be interested in our symposium. Thanks, and take care out there. -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Mandatory home page reference - http://www.marcelgagne.com/ Author : "Moving to Linux" (second edition) "Moving to the Linux Business Desktop" "Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!" "Linux System Administration, A User's Guide" Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.marcelgagne.com/wftllugform.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 14:42:10 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:42:10 -0400 Subject: VDSL and VGER1 Message-ID: Well out of the blue, Bell Canada setups up shop for 3 days in our condo/apartment building giving a demo of their ExpressVu for Condos. More swag. I have learned this is VDSL. I think you need Fibre to the Curb, or in our multi-tenant case, Fibre in the basement. (I near Maple Leaf Gardens.) -------------------------- HowStuffworks says. However, another DSL technology known as very high bit-rate DSL (VDSL) is seen by many as the next step in providing a complete home-communications/entertainment package. There are already some companies, such as U.S. West (part of Qwest now), that offer VDSL service in selected areas. VDSL provides an incredible amount of bandwidth, with speeds up to about 52 megabits per second (Mbps). Compare that with a maximum speed of 8 to 10 Mbps for ADSL or cable modem and it's clear that the move from current broadband technology to VDSL could be as significant as the migration from a 56K modem to broadband. As VDSL becomes more common, you can expect that integrated packages will be cheaper than the total amount for current separate services. ----------------------------- All I know, is I would forgo the cable TV channels altogether, just give me 52Mbps bandwidth. >From what I have been told the Internet will be about the same speed, perhaps a bit faster. ExpressVu for Condos has the NFL Sunday Ticket channels 451-464, and that all I care about! VGER1.DYNDNS.ORG changes ------------------------- My vger1 server at home has some upgrades to it. http://vger1.dyndns.org/gallery My Gallery of Pictures of Toronto and area. People, places and the city we live in. All pix taken with my Kodak C330 4 Mb cam. There are 1600+ pictures in the gallery and more arriving every day. I do not organize my pictures. I just upload them with the date, I took them, and because they are in numerical sequence, they are in the order I took them. So you can see the progress of my day. http://vger1.dyndns.org/jukebox My MP3 streaming audio server. It has over 6000 mp3 files of all types of music. Case and format and organized changes. http://vger1.dyndns.org/guest/guestbook.php My guestbook. (Well someone else wrote it, I just use it. If you visit my site don't forget to sign it! http://vger1.dyndns.org/phpBB2/ I put up a PHPBB2 forum. Not sure yet what forums I will standardize on. The TLUG forum is not official, so keep that in mind. There are some avatars if you register your username. Feel free to make recommendations. Added some essential CraigsList links. CraigsList rules!!! (Got Monkeys? makes me laugh) I need a MySQL/PHP database for my movies.Any ideas? I also need an IRC server or a JABBER server. I have not decided between dancer-ircd and a Jabber server called Jive Messenger. I like Jabber servers, but IRC clients are more popular. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 14:53:14 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:53:14 -0400 Subject: VDSL and VGER1--wrong links... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sheesh. You'd think I would know the proper URLs to my servers. Here are the right ones...sorry about that Root http://vger1.dyndns.org/ Gallery2 http://vger1.dyndns.org/gallery2/main.php JukeBox http://vger1.dyndns.org:81/songs/ Guestbook http://vger1.dyndns.org/guest/guestbook.php -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of lfeder Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:42 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: VDSL and VGER1 Well out of the blue, Bell Canada setups up shop for 3 days in our condo/apartment building giving a demo of their ExpressVu for Condos. More swag. I have learned this is VDSL. I think you need Fibre to the Curb, or in our multi-tenant case, Fibre in the basement. (I near Maple Leaf Gardens.) -------------------------- HowStuffworks says. However, another DSL technology known as very high bit-rate DSL (VDSL) is seen by many as the next step in providing a complete home-communications/entertainment package. There are already some companies, such as U.S. West (part of Qwest now), that offer VDSL service in selected areas. VDSL provides an incredible amount of bandwidth, with speeds up to about 52 megabits per second (Mbps). Compare that with a maximum speed of 8 to 10 Mbps for ADSL or cable modem and it's clear that the move from current broadband technology to VDSL could be as significant as the migration from a 56K modem to broadband. As VDSL becomes more common, you can expect that integrated packages will be cheaper than the total amount for current separate services. ----------------------------- All I know, is I would forgo the cable TV channels altogether, just give me 52Mbps bandwidth. >From what I have been told the Internet will be about the same speed, perhaps a bit faster. ExpressVu for Condos has the NFL Sunday Ticket channels 451-464, and that all I care about! VGER1.DYNDNS.ORG changes ------------------------- My vger1 server at home has some upgrades to it. http://vger1.dyndns.org/gallery My Gallery of Pictures of Toronto and area. People, places and the city we live in. All pix taken with my Kodak C330 4 Mb cam. There are 1600+ pictures in the gallery and more arriving every day. I do not organize my pictures. I just upload them with the date, I took them, and because they are in numerical sequence, they are in the order I took them. So you can see the progress of my day. http://vger1.dyndns.org/jukebox My MP3 streaming audio server. It has over 6000 mp3 files of all types of music. Case and format and organized changes. http://vger1.dyndns.org/guest/guestbook.php My guestbook. (Well someone else wrote it, I just use it. If you visit my site don't forget to sign it! http://vger1.dyndns.org/phpBB2/ I put up a PHPBB2 forum. Not sure yet what forums I will standardize on. The TLUG forum is not official, so keep that in mind. There are some avatars if you register your username. Feel free to make recommendations. Added some essential CraigsList links. CraigsList rules!!! (Got Monkeys? makes me laugh) I need a MySQL/PHP database for my movies.Any ideas? I also need an IRC server or a JABBER server. I have not decided between dancer-ircd and a Jabber server called Jive Messenger. I like Jabber servers, but IRC clients are more popular. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 16:26:51 2005 From: zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:26:51 -0500 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4355224B.3030305@zee4.com> Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Stew > **** > > Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE > From: shanaz meghji > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) > To: Parin Visanji > > E-MAIL SURCHARGE > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the > Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation... This one seems to have a life of it's own, Google "Bill 602P" and you get a few interesting links. Basically the one you got is a Canadianized (are they guys working on a French-language one next?) version of a U.S. hox, pretty much replacing the U.S.-specific text with Canadian references, e.g. "U.S. Postal Service" becomes "Canada Post", "Washingtonian" becomes "Toronto Star", "congressman, Tony Schnell (r)" becomes a Liberal(!?), etc. It's kind of interesting they took the time to make some of the facts hard to check (who's going to look for a 'Star editorial from 1999, or look up a MP from New Brunswick, ok, on that one they could go to http://www.howdtheyvote.ca/ for that one). But they missed the simple things - bills in Canada (or the UK, maybe most comonwealth countries too) are labled "Bill C-###" (coming from the House of Commons) or "Bill S-xxx " (Senate). At least they got the spellings right :) Website tracks MPs' voting habits (http://www.yyztech.ca/page.php?PageID=114&RecordID=132&SectionID=2) Oh well, some fun for Tuesay, Zoltan -- www.YYZTech.ca Toronto talks tech. www.Dine.TO Toronto's premier restaurant search engine. Get Thunderbird -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 16:19:24 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Extras needed for a feature film Message-ID: Hi all. As some of you may know my wife is a film producer. We need about 50 extras for a night club scene in a feature film. We need 18-40 year old men and women dressed in clothing suitable for an upmarket night club. Filming will take about 6 hours (noon-6pm). The day of filming is tentatively set for Sunday Oct 23 but may be pushed back to a Sunday in November. Unfortunately we can't offer payment or reimbursement for travel, etc, as the movie is being made on a shoe string budget. Food and drinks will be provided for the day of filming. Reasons you might like to attend: - It's different. - You get to see a movie being made. - You might see yourself on the big screen. Anyone interested should RSVP to me off list with available dates (Sundays). Please don't forward this email on. Thanks, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 18:24:33 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:24:33 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <4354ED9E.3080806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <4354ED9E.3080806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43553DE1.8070201@interlog.com> James Knott wrote: > Here's a couple that are switching to OpenOffice. > > http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-09/sunflash.20050927.2.html > http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-05/sunflash.20040527.1.html Both of the above indicate a move to StarOffice. The only reference to OpenOffice is in the first link which mentions the use of NeoOffice (a Mac supported version of OpenOffice). -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 19:29:56 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flatbed X-Y Plotter? Message-ID: <50171.207.188.67.74.1129663796.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> This is a long shot, but anyway... If anyone has a used Roland or HP flatbed X-Y plotter, one which uses BPIB (IEEE-488) or RS232 control from a host computer, I'm in the market. I need a machine where the drawing surface is fixed. Many of the modern ones move the paper as one axis, and this won't work in this application. We hope to modify the plotter to use as a small pick-place robot. Thanks - Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 20:28:10 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:28:10 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43553DE1.8070201-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <4354ED9E.3080806@rogers.com> <43553DE1.8070201@interlog.com> Message-ID: <43555ADA.7040404@telly.org> Kevin Cozens wrote: >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-09/sunflash.20050927.2.html >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-05/sunflash.20040527.1.html > > > Both of the above indicate a move to StarOffice. True, but this is still useful for my research. At least these universities have understood the value of moving to open document standards, and are using a software suite that depends upon on OpenOffice. It's a very cautious testing-the-waters step. but a significant step nonetheless. Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:07:08 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:07:08 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> Message-ID: <43552BBC.27760.EC78ED8@localhost> http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blemtax2.htm There has been variations on this hoax since 1999, at least. Paul King > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Stew > **** > > Subject: E-MAIL SURCHARGE > From: shanaz meghji > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:45:20 -0400 (EDT) > To: Parin Visanji > > E-MAIL SURCHARGE > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the > Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation > that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed > legislation Canada Post will be attempting to bill email users out > of "alternate postage fees". > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge > on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at > source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. > > Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working to prevent this > legislation from becoming law. > > The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to > the > proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in revenue per > year. > > You may have noticed Canada Post's recent ad campaign "There is > nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 > pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual > would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per > year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs. > > Note that this would be money paid directly to Canada Post for a > service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is > democracy and non-interference. If the Canadian Government is > permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to > email, who knows where it will end. > > You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because > of > beaurocratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a > letter to be delivered from Mississauga to Scarborough. > > If Canada Post Corporation is allowed to tinker with email, it will > mark the end of the "free" Internet in Canada. One back-bencher, > Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even suggested a "twenty to forty > dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond > the government's proposed email charges. > > Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the > only exception being the Toronto Star that called the idea of email > surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999 > Editorial). Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send > this email to all Canadians on your list and tell your friends and > relatives to write to their MP and say "No!" to Bill 602P. > > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp QC > Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law > 216 Bay Street Toronto, ON MlL 3C6 > > > GULAM RAJANI > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > __________ NOD32 1.1260 (20051018) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:08:50 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:08:50 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <4354967D.5010009-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051018210850.GA3004@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 02:30:21AM -0400, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? I seen it long ago, and it's an old hoax. However, charging for outgoing email (not incoming) will solve spam problem, once and for all. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:13:58 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:13:58 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051018211357.GB3004@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 12:08:34AM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > I joined tlug at last years show. > I havnt been to a meeting, its just not convient (live in Oakville). There is a branch of TLUG in Mississauga, called WestTLUG. We meet for dinner in pub. http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/WestTLUG/ -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:15:01 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:15:01 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43553DE1.8070201-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <4354ED9E.3080806@rogers.com> <43553DE1.8070201@interlog.com> Message-ID: <435565D5.3020008@rogers.com> Kevin Cozens wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> Here's a couple that are switching to OpenOffice. >> >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-09/sunflash.20050927.2.html >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-05/sunflash.20040527.1.html > > Both of the above indicate a move to StarOffice. The only reference to > OpenOffice is in the first link which mentions the use of NeoOffice (a > Mac supported version of OpenOffice). > Sun had released the core of StarOffice to OpenSource. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:18:16 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:18:16 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <20051018210850.GA3004-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> <20051018210850.GA3004@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:08 PM, William Park wrote: > However, charging for outgoing email (not incoming) will solve spam > problem, once and for all. In the past year, I believe most of my spam has arrived from the "zombie" network of compromised Windows systems. Which means, that it wouldn't be the actual spammers paying an outgoing surcharge. (But, on the other hand, having to pay money because of what their infected system spewed might get people to move to a more secure OS. All right! Bring it on!) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:17:11 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:17:11 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43555ADA.7040404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <43553DE1.8070201@interlog.com> <43555ADA.7040404@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510181717.12220.marc@lijour.net> On Tuesday 18 October 2005 16:28, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Kevin Cozens wrote: > >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-09/sunflash.20050927.2.html > >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-05/sunflash.20040527.1.html > > > > Both of the above indicate a move to StarOffice. > > True, but this is still useful for my research. At least these > universities have understood the value of moving to open document > standards, and are using a software suite that depends upon on > OpenOffice. It's a very cautious testing-the-waters step. but a > significant step nonetheless. 1) The University of Sherbrooke is big on Open Source. You probably know that already. They have a very well-known mirror at the LUG: gulus.usherbrooke.ca (where you can download your favorite distro). 2) Ryerson also has been using StarOffice for a while. I have seeing it for the couple of years I have been studying there. I am doing some little thesis related to Open Source and I am not aware of others Open Source projects at Ryerson, but I passed the question to my coordinator and to the Computer Science chair. A couple of weeks ago I presented a formal request to have a Mandriva Linux mirror but I have had no feedback yet, though it is (loosely) related to my thesis. I presented them also with the new Mandriva Academia program, but I had no feedback either. > Thanks! > > - Evan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:28:31 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:28:31 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <43550714.2050401-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051018121056.38452.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43550714.2050401@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: [...] > To me, it's mainly an advocacy gig -- providing non-vendor-biased > information and FUD-busting to show attendees, an extension of the > self-help model that spawned the LUG movement in the first place. Think > of a broader goal of growing the community, which is not the exact same > thing as growing LUG membership. [...] I really like this suggestion. With roughly 6 months available for research and prep, a FUD-Buster! style show along with an introduction to the self-help model might not be a bad idea at all. Might even be a great way to ease LW attendees into the LUG concept - it has good guys, bad guys, self and communal development. All kinds of neat things, without the need to get technical. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 21:50:17 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:50:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <20051018210850.GA3004-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> Message-ID: <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> William Park wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 02:30:21AM -0400, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > I seen it long ago, and it's an old hoax. > > However, charging for outgoing email (not incoming) will solve spam > problem, once and for all. Most spam is foreign. I think all that will happen is that Canadian spammers will start moving to foreign servers. It would only work if all email services were federally-owned by every respective government worldwide. Not that likely, IMO. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 22:20:56 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> References: <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> Message-ID: <20051018222056.35529.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > William Park wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 02:30:21AM -0400, Stewart > Sinclair wrote: > > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > > > I seen it long ago, and it's an old hoax. > > > > However, charging for outgoing email (not > incoming) will solve spam > > problem, once and for all. > > Most spam is foreign. I think all that will happen > is that Canadian > spammers will start moving to foreign servers. It > would only work if > all email services were federally-owned by every > respective > government worldwide. Not that likely, IMO. Further it would kill off a LOT of mailing lists. Within GTALUG there are multiple mailing list, tlug, tlug-announce, etc., and depending on the mailing list you can be talking some 800 e-mail addresses. So, 800 e-mails at 5 cents each we would be talking $40 for each e-mail sent out, not a cost GTALUG could take on a regular basis. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 22:29:38 2005 From: Chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org (Chris Friedt) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:29:38 -0400 Subject: Flatbed X-Y Plotter? Message-ID: On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of anyone who knows of anyone who would like to sell an oscilloscope? ~/Chris ______________________________ Christopher Friedt Ryerson University Computing & Communication Services (416) 979-5000 x6831 chfriedt-0jnyayh6ARPqzrOJbVgLALDks+cytr/Z at public.gmane.org >>> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org 10/18/05 3:29:56 pm >>> This is a long shot, but anyway... If anyone has a used Roland or HP flatbed X-Y plotter, one which uses BPIB (IEEE-488) or RS232 control from a host computer, I'm in the market. I need a machine where the drawing surface is fixed. Many of the modern ones move the paper as one axis, and this won't work in this application. We hope to modify the plotter to use as a small pick-place robot. Thanks - Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 23:16:03 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:16:03 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> References: <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> Message-ID: <20051018231603.GA3234@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 05:50:17PM -0400, pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > William Park wrote: > > However, charging for outgoing email (not incoming) will solve spam > > problem, once and for all. > > Most spam is foreign. I think all that will happen is that Canadian > spammers will start moving to foreign servers. It would only work if > all email services were federally-owned by every respective > government worldwide. Not that likely, IMO. Email traffic coming into Canada will be charged. Foreign backbone companies can choose to swallow the cost or pass it on to their ISPs. In turn, these ISPs can choose to swallow the cost or pass it on to their users. Using free market force to solve spam problem. It's still free to receive spam, just like junk mail. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 23:28:04 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051018232805.2774.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- psema4 wrote: > On 10/18/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > [...] > > To me, it's mainly an advocacy gig -- providing > non-vendor-biased > > information and FUD-busting to show attendees, an > extension of the > > self-help model that spawned the LUG movement in > the first place. Think > > of a broader goal of growing the community, which > is not the exact same > > thing as growing LUG membership. > [...] > > I really like this suggestion. > > With roughly 6 months available for research and > prep, a FUD-Buster! > style show along with an introduction to the > self-help model might not > be a bad idea at all. Might even be a great way to > ease LW attendees > into the LUG concept - it has good guys, bad guys, > self and communal > development. All kinds of neat things, without the > need to get > technical. Spoke to Herb Richter earlier today and he is game to do the April NewTLUG meeting at the show (there are some details that I need to check on but it looks like that may well come together). The main GTALUG meeting will likely be a different story... Any event, Herb Richter was noting that he has wanted a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose When/Why?" type meeting for some time, and he was suggesting that might be a great topic for a meeting at the show. Here we could have several people speaking about why they like a particular distribution and why. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 23:36:16 2005 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:36:16 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <20051018231603.GA3234-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> <20051018231603.GA3234@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051018193616.545070b0.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:16:03 -0400 William Park got an infinite number of monkeys to type out: > Using free market force to solve spam problem. Yeah, it's done a bang-up job with everything else! Er, well, except for war, famine, disease, and of course...Microsoft. But other than that, it's great! -- JoeHill / RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth..." -- Morpheus, in The Matrix, describing Fox News -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 00:02:07 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:02:07 -0400 Subject: Public Documents Surcharge [Was: E-MAIL SURCHARGE] Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510181702m2dd597b1j51b1a0e7275a5176@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? Just received this from Digital-Copyright Canada, entitled "The Canadian email tax bill 602P is a hoax, but proposals to tax publicly accessible Internet documents are not a hoax."... -- Original Message -- (Please circulate as widely as possible. Let see if real information can circulate as fast as a hoax!) In April of 1999 a bulletin was circulating the Internet claiming that Canada Post had convinced the federal government to add a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered. The claim was that since Canada Post was losing money as people switched from them to email, that they should be compensated. The advise of the bulletin was to write your member of parliament. While this was a hoax that is well documented on the Internet (just search for "602P Canada" on any search engine), it bears a striking resemblance to a real proposal that the government will soon be debating. In this case it is not Canada Post that is claiming they are losing money competing with the Internet, but traditional book publishers. You may have heard about this proposal to levy educational use of the public part of the Internet. If successful, this levy will be extended to all uses. The Council of Ministers of Education have been strongly opposed to this proposal, and have asked educators and parents to write to the government. The proposal originates from an organization called Access Copyright, previously called CANCOPY. They represent many traditional paper authors and book publishers, including a majority of educational publishers. They already offer what they call "licenses" where institutions like schools and libraries pay a levy on photocopying. The intention is to compensate the authors and publishers which they represent (their repertoire). They are targeting their levy proposal on the part of the Internet that has no passwords, and not trying to levy the various subscription services that exist on the Internet. Access Copyright believes that since they represent a majority of material in print (paper), that they will also represent a majority of material on the Internet. It turns out that most of the material on the public Internet has been made available by competitors to their members, or by members who are exploring alternative business models than collecting royalties on every possible use. Most people believe that the material made available on the Internet outside of a subscription service is intended to be free. Access Copyright claims that they should not have to use technology to create a subscription service in order to charge a fee. Obviously there is a conflict that the government must resolve. Access Copyright membership represents a small number of people relative to the existing people publishing and accessing royalty-free material on the public part of the Internet. When Access Copyright members wish to charge additional fees they must learn to use simple and inexpensive techniques to verify that people who access their materials are subscribers. Unfortunately the government has not yet understood this simple logic, and has not yet rejected the Access Copyright proposal. A parliamentary committee released a report on May 12, 2004 which fully supported amendments to the Copyright Act to impliment the proposal to levy the Internet. Please write your member of parliament about this issue, and let your friends know about it. This issue is not a hoax, and is one that should be circulating around the Internet. Russell McOrmond Webmaster for Digital-Copyright.ca Linked version of this article is at http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/1127 -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 01:03:05 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:03:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: <20051018231603.GA3234-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435535D9.32052.EEF0EF6@localhost> Message-ID: <43556309.13575.F9F9144@localhost> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 05:50:17PM -0400, pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > William Park wrote: > Email traffic coming into Canada will be charged. Foreign backbone > companies can choose to swallow the cost or pass it on to their ISPs. > In turn, these ISPs can choose to swallow the cost or pass it on to > their users. Using free market force to solve spam problem. > > It's still free to receive spam, just like junk mail. > But William, unlike junk mail, spam can be distributed freely (to the spammer), where the ISP and end users pay the bill. Spammers depend on using up bandwidth at the expense of other users. All "free" means in your context, is that the cost is either absorbed by the ISP or included in the monthly charge to the end user. I don't consider my email service to be free. I pay for it each month as one of a number of services that come with my Internet feed. As part of my bill, I pay for what I send _and_ what I receive. OTOH, junk mailers pay in bulk for a postal worker to carry their stuff to the mailbox. Somebody pays somewhere, nothing is ever really free. As such, it is less offensive, since I can always toss the stuff in "the circular file" as they say. And spammers are disparagingly named, because they are getting a free ride off services which others (like you and I) pay for. I would prefer to call them "leeches", but that one is already in use as a Geek term. With the ideology of the Free Market ought to be idea of ownership and control. Who owns and controls my internet services? Ideally, it should be my ISP, and the customers who pay for it, myself among them. Should a spammer from the Cayman Islands have a say in who gets what email at Sympatico? If we allow unsolicited email from the Cayman Islands (or even inside Sympatico -- who cares where it's from), then we have answered the question: that they have at least some control. If we say that they should have nothing to do with deciding anything about my email services; that control must belong in the hands of the companies which own the servers and also their customers, then we must agree that it is important for an ISP operating in a free market to purge all the spam they can get their hands on, even to the point of urging police and criminal proceedings to take place for theft of services on the part of the spammers. I am not saying that the products spammers provide are good or bad; I am saying that the very existence of spam is an abomination and perversion of everything the free market stands for. Its very existence is criminal. It is a theft of services that they never paid for, and it is unfair that I should be made to pay for their share of the traffic. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 12:41:33 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:41:33 -0400 (EST) Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <200510181717.12220.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200510181717.12220.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20051019124153.7278D17C333@www.istop.com> At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was discussed: "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly in the UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html Ken B. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 13:25:23 2005 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:25:23 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019124153.7278D17C333-7eRXR8VDprX3oGB3hsPCZA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019124153.7278D17C333@www.istop.com> Message-ID: <43564943.2020206@utoronto.ca> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was >discussed: > >"There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly in the >UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools >here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to >be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools >in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." > >http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html > > wow, that is a seriously obnoxious sentiment. How about just spending less money on the damned computers, and maybe a little bit more on... teaching? Anyway the news about UTSC (earlier in the thread) is good. I would like to see the samething happen on the St. George campus -- among many other benefits, a huge student base like that will help push OOo to develop a real bibliographic function, which in my view is the only thing stopping widespread deployment of OOo in higher education. matt >Ken B. > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 13:24:38 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:24:38 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019124153.7278D17C333-7eRXR8VDprX3oGB3hsPCZA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019124153.7278D17C333@www.istop.com> Message-ID: <43564916.4080802@rogers.com> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was > discussed: > > "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly in the > UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools > here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to > be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools > in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html I guess you missed this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 14:55:47 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:55:47 -0400 (EST) Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43564916.4080802-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43564916.4080802@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> James Knott said: > kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was > > discussed: > > > > "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly in the > > UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools > > here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to > > be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools > > in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." > > > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html > > I guess you missed this. > > No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying a commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that the heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always buy the commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against installing Linux or using open source because they don't care about price--they can always pass the cost back to the government. This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently and Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with much success. KB -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 15:29:49 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:29:49 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C-7eRXR8VDprX3oGB3hsPCZA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> Message-ID: <4356666D.8050507@rogers.com> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > James Knott said: > >> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >>> At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was >>> discussed: >>> >>> "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly > in the >>> UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools >>> here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to >>> be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools >>> in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." >>> >>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html >> I guess you missed this. >> >> > > No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying a > commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that the > heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always buy the > commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against installing > Linux or using open source because they don't care about price--they can > always pass the cost back to the government. > > This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently and > Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with much success. 1) I believe the "educational" StarOffice licence is free. 2) People using StarOffice at school are more likely to consider OpenOffice elsewhere, than those who've only used MS Office. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 15:35:10 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:35:10 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <4356666D.8050507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> <4356666D.8050507@rogers.com> Message-ID: <435667AE.9080407@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> James Knott said: >> >>> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >>>> At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) was >>>> discussed: >>>> >>>> "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, particularly >> in the >>>> UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that schools >>>> here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There needs to >>>> be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. Schools >>>> in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." >>>> >>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html >>> I guess you missed this. >>> >>> >> No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying a >> commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that the >> heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always buy the >> commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against installing >> Linux or using open source because they don't care about price--they can >> always pass the cost back to the government. >> >> This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently and >> Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with much success. > > 1) I believe the "educational" StarOffice licence is free. > 2) People using StarOffice at school are more likely to consider > OpenOffice elsewhere, than those who've only used MS Office. Forgot to mention, StarOffice is built on OpenOffice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 15:49:25 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C-7eRXR8VDprX3oGB3hsPCZA@public.gmane.org> References: <43564916.4080802@rogers.com> <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> Message-ID: <50959.207.188.67.74.1129736965.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> In a beaucratic environment, the need to protect one's rear end outweighs any possible advantage in saving money, especially saving someone else's money. And one way to protect one's rear is to buy from an established source, regardless of the quality of the product. I had this argument in spades back in the 80's when I was trying to persuade my university to buy Sun workstations instead of some brain-dead IBM terminals. The IBM equipment was 4 times the price for essentially zero capability. They bought IBM and the things were being turfed out a year later, replaced by guess what? Sun workstations. Now Sun is the establishment and the place is full of Sun workstations. And the school boards are intensely beaurcratic. Peter > James Knott said: > >> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> > At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Libeaucratic nux in schools (not universities) >> was >> > discussed: >> > >> > "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, >> particularly > in the >> > UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that >> schools >> > here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There >> needs to >> > be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. >> Schools >> > in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." >> > >> > http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html >> >> I guess you missed this. >> >> > > No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying a > commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that the > heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always buy the > commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against installing > Linux or using open source because they don't care about price--they can > always pass the cost back to the government. > > This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently and > Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with much > success. > > KB > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3006 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 16:42:45 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:42:45 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <50959.207.188.67.74.1129736965.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43564916.4080802@rogers.com> <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> <50959.207.188.67.74.1129736965.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051019124245.46f4dec1.tleslie@tcn.net> Very true, its common for a person at a school board to receive a nice portable (for home use, and oddly enough never documented :) ) by the supplier of all this over-price Microshaft stuff. In a Opensource environment, it is very hard to grease the the buyers. Even if they bought linux and staroffice, of course the margins are not there to leave behind a 5K$ portable in the car of the customer after the lunch meeting (which of course was a very expensive lunch and pay for by the supplier :) ) Now if the schools bought HW and opensource deployment from a single entity then the school board wouldn't have to fear losing their greasing (as much). Being a supplier, I have often found that the subtle hints for greasing also happen over time, sometime even two years, before you are greasing at the 2-5% level. So a change of supplier, then involves some time to establish a re-greasing environment. -tl On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:49:25 -0400 (EDT) phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > In a beaucratic environment, the need to protec. one's rear end outweighs > any possible advantage in saving money, especially saving someone else's > money. And one way to protect one's rear is to buy from an established > source, regardless of the quality of the product. > > I had this argument in spades back in the 80's when I was trying to > persuade my university to buy Sun workstations instead of some brain-dead > IBM terminals. The IBM equipment was 4 times the price for essentially > zero capability. They bought IBM and the things were being turfed out a > year later, replaced by guess what? Sun workstations. > > Now Sun is the establishment and the place is full of Sun workstations. > > And the school boards are intensely beaurcratic. > > Peter > > > James Knott said: > > > >> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> > At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Libeaucratic nux in schools (not > universities) > >> was > >> > discussed: > >> > > >> > "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, > >> particularly > > in the > >> > UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that > >> schools > >> > here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. There > >> needs to > >> > be spending cuts to education in order to generate interest in Linux. > >> Schools > >> > in the UK have smaller budgets making Linux more attractive." > >> > > >> > http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html > >> > >> I guess you missed this. > >> > >> > > > > No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying a > > commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that the > > heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always buy the > > commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against installing > > Linux or using open source because they don't care about price--they can > > always pass the cost back to the government. > > > > This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently and > > Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with much > > success. > > > > KB > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Professor Emeritus, > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > Ryerson University > 416-465-3006 > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 18:01:05 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:01:05 -0400 Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? Message-ID: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and want top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, when I reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current versions of files in these hierarchies. When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server directories using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat has a number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to know what people here are using. Thanks for any suggestions. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 18:35:13 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:35:13 -0400 Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? In-Reply-To: <435689E1.3000305-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/19/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and want > top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. > After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, when I > reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current versions of > files in these hierarchies. > > When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server directories > using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). > > There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat has a > number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to know what > people here are using. There are two approaches to this: 1. Use some SCM system, like CVS, Subversion, Darcs, Arch, or such. 2. The notable two-way file synchronizer is called Unison Default behaviour is for it to list changes on each side, show the expected direction of propagation, and let you control what to do. You can also submit command line options to make it perform specific default behaviours... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:40:03 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:40:03 +0200 (IST) Subject: sheduling/calendar application Message-ID: I found this on freshmeat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/newspromail/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 18:45:23 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:45:23 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <43548E2B.2010506-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051019184523.GA5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 01:54:51AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I'm doing a little research, and I'm wondering if anyone here can help > with this: which universities in Canada are friendliest to open source > and which are the most hostile? > > There can be many factors in this, including (but not limited to): > - the amount OSS is taught in CompSci > - Awareness and support of open development models outside CompSci > - the amount of FOSS used internally in administration > - the scale of cheap-software deals struck with Microsoft > - the level of freedom/suppression of open source advocacy > - specific instructors who are particularly friendly or hostile > > I'm looking for any data I can find on any and all Canadian universities. > Feel free to reply to me personally or to the list as you feel > appropriate. All confidences will be honoured. Well I don't know if open source is taught, but it is certainly used a lot in some places. When I got my CS degree at Waterloo, we certainly used many open source programs, such as gcc, modula 3, nachos, libsvga, and many others. The environment was mainly solaris, although at the start (1994/95) was mostly SunOS 4, and some ultrix and aix systems. First year courses were thinkpascal on Macs, so no open source involved there. I know java is now used instead for first year courses, and some second year courses (in place of modula 3), but for later stuff I doubt much has changed. They still use unix and hence gcc and company for compiling code. uc++ is also open source (used for a concurrency course). I know some engineering courses at Waterloo now use C# for reasons I can't imagine other than some deal with MicroSoft. In general people seem to use what works best and is most accessible to students whenever possible, at least in the math/cs faculty. The CS club certainly has many open source advocates involved in it. My wife is taking a few courses at the moment at York, and the current one uses common lisp, which is also an open source program running on aix (although she mostly runs it on her own machine on windows or linux (depending on her mood about the linux wireless support) :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 18:51:34 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:51:34 -0400 Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? In-Reply-To: <435689E1.3000305-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> Message-ID: <435695B6.7070100@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and want > top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. > After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, when > I reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current versions > of files in these hierarchies. > > When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server > directories using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). > > There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat has a > number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to know what > people here are using. http://tsyncd.sourceforge.net/ This was one of the results of this year's google summer of code. I have not tried it but it looks promising. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 18:59:33 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: <20051013151833.GB32650-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> <434E6B08.8040705@alteeve.com> <20051013151833.GB32650@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I use afio rather than tar/gzip since afio compresses each file in the > archive with gzip rather than creating the archive and then compressing > it. You loose some compression as a result but not much, but you gain > the ability to quickly seek through the file to the head for the file > you want and then start decompressing the file (and only the file) > rather than having to decompress the whole thing to find the header and This approach (also taken by the zip algorithm) provides for improved data reliability too. If you use tar.gz ("archive then compress") to dump data to a tape and the archive suffers from an error on restore your archive is basically toast. You may have archive restore utilities available if you are lucky. If you use a "compress then archive" approach (used by afio and zip) you will only lose a minority of files if you suffer an error when restoring. When it comes to tape technologies that are not as reliable as many people think this is a big deal. Like many sysadmins I never use "archive then compress" to tape but I use it on harddrives all the time as the level of reliability is much greater. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x7x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:20:47 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:20:47 -0400 Subject: Flatbed X-Y Plotter? In-Reply-To: <50171.207.188.67.74.1129663796.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50171.207.188.67.74.1129663796.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051019192047.GB5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 03:29:56PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > This is a long shot, but anyway... > > If anyone has a used Roland or HP flatbed X-Y plotter, one which uses BPIB > (IEEE-488) or RS232 control from a host computer, I'm in the market. Hmm, I haven't seen a flatbed roland since highschool. :) > I need a machine where the drawing surface is fixed. Many of the modern > ones move the paper as one axis, and this won't work in this application. > We hope to modify the plotter to use as a small pick-place robot. The _modern_ ones? As far as the world is concerned, plotters in general died out around a decade ago. My farher still thinks this sucks, and continues to use his calcomp for all his large drawings. Large inkjets are nice (and expensive) and all, but they don't match the line quality of a pen plotter. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:24:55 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:24:55 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> <434E6B08.8040705@alteeve.com> <20051013151833.GB32650@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051019192455.GC5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 02:59:33PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > I use afio rather than tar/gzip since afio compresses each file in the > > archive with gzip rather than creating the archive and then compressing > > it. You loose some compression as a result but not much, but you gain > > the ability to quickly seek through the file to the head for the file > > you want and then start decompressing the file (and only the file) > > rather than having to decompress the whole thing to find the header and > > This approach (also taken by the zip algorithm) provides for improved data > reliability too. zip unfortunately seems to store the archive directory at the end of the file, so if you are missing the end of the file, it can be very hard to get much useful out of zip. Corrupt content in the middle is ok though. zip is far from ideal as an archiver. > If you use tar.gz ("archive then compress") to dump data to a tape and the > archive suffers from an error on restore your archive is basically toast. > You may have archive restore utilities available if you are lucky. Well at least unlike zip, everything up to the error will be fine without extra work. > If you use a "compress then archive" approach (used by afio and zip) you > will only lose a minority of files if you suffer an error when restoring. Well if you can seek to the next header, then yes it will recover the rest. > When it comes to tape technologies that are not as reliable as many people > think this is a big deal. > > Like many sysadmins I never use "archive then compress" to tape but I use > it on harddrives all the time as the level of reliability is much greater. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:31:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:31:18 -0400 Subject: Fwd: E-MAIL SURCHARGE In-Reply-To: References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <43519D4C.1080707@alteeve.com> <4353D118.2000404@telly.org> <4354967D.5010009@eol.ca> <20051018210850.GA3004@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051019193118.GE5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 05:18:16PM -0400, phil wrote: > On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:08 PM, William Park wrote: > > >However, charging for outgoing email (not incoming) will solve spam > >problem, once and for all. > > In the past year, I believe most of my spam has arrived from the > "zombie" network of compromised Windows systems. Which means, that it > wouldn't be the actual spammers paying an outgoing surcharge. > > (But, on the other hand, having to pay money because of what their > infected system spewed might get people to move to a more secure OS. > All right! Bring it on!) And the traffic on this list would reduce to near nothing. Or we will invent an alternate system to email that isn't charged for messages. Maybe the new system will be more spam proof. Perhaps we will require use of gpg authentication on all messages. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:28:52 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:28:52 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051018232805.2774.qmail-fjYszm/wOJWB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051018232805.2774.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 07:28:04PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Spoke to Herb Richter earlier today and he is game to > do the April NewTLUG meeting at the show (there are > some details that I need to check on but it looks like > that may well come together). The main GTALUG meeting > will likely be a different story... > > Any event, Herb Richter was noting that he has wanted > a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose When/Why?" > type meeting for some time, and he was suggesting that > might be a great topic for a meeting at the show. Here > we could have several people speaking about why they > like a particular distribution and why. To me that sounds like exactly the kind of topic you wouldn't want. It always turns into a huge distribution war when that topic comes up, unless you don't allow any questions/opinions to be stated by the audience. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:47:52 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 19 Oct 2005 15:47:52 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051019192852.GD5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051018232805.2774.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > > Any event, Herb Richter was noting that he has wanted > > a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose When/Why?" > > To me that sounds like exactly the kind of topic you wouldn't want. It > always turns into a huge distribution war when that topic comes up, > unless you don't allow any questions/opinions to be stated by the > audience. Make it a panel discussion with people having experience using many distros. Debian based, RPM based, 'single' purpose distros (like leaf), bootable distros like Knoppix and I think that you can have a well rounded discussion. Make it a panel filled with RH/FC, SUSE, Mandriva and Debian 'enthusiasts' and, yeah, you'll get what you predict ;) PS - Go Debian!!!! -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:48:02 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:48:02 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019124245.46f4dec1.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <43564916.4080802@rogers.com> <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> <50959.207.188.67.74.1129736965.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051019124245.46f4dec1.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <4356A2F2.6010006@rogers.com> ted leslie wrote: > In a Opensource environment, it is very hard to grease the > the buyers. Even if they bought linux and staroffice, of course the margins are not there > to leave behind a 5K$ portable in the car of the customer after the lunch meeting > (which of course was a very expensive lunch and pay for by the supplier :) ) > Now if the schools bought HW and opensource deployment from a single entity > then the school board wouldn't have to fear losing their greasing (as much). > Being a supplier, I have often found that the subtle hints for greasing also > happen over time, sometime even two years, before you are greasing at the 2-5% level. > So a change of supplier, then involves some time to establish a re-greasing environment. That would depend on where you go for lunch. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:55:37 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:55:37 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019184523.GA5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <20051019184523.GA5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4356A4B9.5020201@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > When I got my CS degree at Waterloo, we certainly used many open source > programs, such as gcc, modula 3, nachos, libsvga, and many others. > > The environment was mainly solaris, although at the start (1994/95) was > mostly SunOS 4, and some ultrix and aix systems. First year courses > were thinkpascal on Macs, so no open source involved there. > > I know java is now used instead for first year courses, and some second > year courses (in place of modula 3), but for later stuff I doubt much > has changed. They still use unix and hence gcc and company for > compiling code. uc++ is also open source (used for a concurrency > course). > > I know some engineering courses at Waterloo now use C# for reasons I > can't imagine other than some deal with MicroSoft. What happened to WATFIV? I had a course on that at Ryerson. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 19:58:30 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:58:30 -0400 Subject: Flatbed X-Y Plotter? In-Reply-To: <20051019192047.GB5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50171.207.188.67.74.1129663796.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051019192047.GB5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4356A566.60706@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 03:29:56PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> This is a long shot, but anyway... >> >> If anyone has a used Roland or HP flatbed X-Y plotter, one which uses BPIB >> (IEEE-488) or RS232 control from a host computer, I'm in the market. > > Hmm, I haven't seen a flatbed roland since highschool. :) > >> I need a machine where the drawing surface is fixed. Many of the modern >> ones move the paper as one axis, and this won't work in this application. >> We hope to modify the plotter to use as a small pick-place robot. > > The _modern_ ones? As far as the world is concerned, plotters in > general died out around a decade ago. My farher still thinks this > sucks, and continues to use his calcomp for all his large drawings. > Large inkjets are nice (and expensive) and all, but they don't match the > line quality of a pen plotter. My cousin's husband uses a flat bed plotter, to cut plastic sheets for making signs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 20:09:50 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:09:50 -0400 Subject: The hidden email In-Reply-To: <20051019192455.GC5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <434D7845.1000301@alteeve.com> <434E6B08.8040705@alteeve.com> <20051013151833.GB32650@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051019192455.GC5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051019200950.GA2945@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 03:24:55PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > If you use tar.gz ("archive then compress") to dump data to a tape and the > > archive suffers from an error on restore your archive is basically toast. > > You may have archive restore utilities available if you are lucky. > > Well at least unlike zip, everything up to the error will be fine > without extra work. Fix whatever is causing the error, first. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 20:56:44 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:56:44 -0300 (ADT) Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? In-Reply-To: <435689E1.3000305-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> Message-ID: I use the old plain rsync. I use it to sync FreeBSD with OSX and Win2K (with cygwin). Doesn't work as well with solaris though due to version differences. It works great both locally and over the network. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and want > top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. > After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, when I > reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current versions of > files in these hierarchies. > > When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server directories > using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). > > There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat has a > number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to know what > people here are using. > > Thanks for any suggestions. > > - Evan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 21:55:41 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:55:41 -0400 Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? In-Reply-To: <435689E1.3000305-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510191755.41794.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 19, 2005 14:01, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and > want top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. > After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, > when I reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current > versions of files in these hierarchies. > > When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server > directories using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). > > There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat > has a number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to > know what people here are using. Mandriva comes with draksync, which is a PyGTK front end to various tools, such as rsync. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 22:24:37 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051019222437.81781.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "G. Matthew Rice" wrote: > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) > writes: > > > Any event, Herb Richter was noting that he has > wanted > > > a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose > When/Why?" > > > > To me that sounds like exactly the kind of topic > you wouldn't want. It > > always turns into a huge distribution war when > that topic comes up, > > unless you don't allow any questions/opinions to > be stated by the > > audience. > > Make it a panel discussion with people having > experience using many > distros. Debian based, RPM based, 'single' purpose > distros (like leaf), > bootable distros like Knoppix and I think that you > can have a well rounded > discussion. Agreed the choice of speaker(s)/panelist will be key here. In my case on any given day at home I will be running: - Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten everything else). - Debian (good general purpose desktop, excellent server). - Knoppix (great for solving some problems). - Fedora Core 4 (very good general purpose desktop). > Make it a panel filled with RH/FC, SUSE, Mandriva > and Debian 'enthusiasts' > and, yeah, you'll get what you predict ;) > > PS - Go Debian!!!! Debian has it's place, but would not be my pick for a router (Coyote!), and if I had a box that was in trouble I would not want to try to rescue the box with Debian (Knoppix). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 22:52:35 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:52:35 -0400 Subject: Video Card Recommendations Message-ID: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop machine, what should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, obviously, and preferably an Open Source driver rather than a 3rd-party binary. Most importantly, it should be able to show movies without bogging down too much, but otherwise I'm not looking for much in the way of performance. Reading text in a terminal is not too challenging, after all. Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 23:25:51 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019225235.GA6447-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051019232551.35528.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop > machine, what > should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, > obviously, and > preferably an Open Source driver rather than a > 3rd-party binary. Well, I would start with the nVidia based cards (sad to say at the MOMENT the ATI drivers as are not up to snuff). Unless you are getting into games any of the various nVidia 5xxx series should do fine. On the MythTV Users mailing list the nVidia FX 5200 cards get a fair bit of positive comment, because they are inexpensive, can take anything MythTV can throw at them, and there are versions of this card without a fan for the card's GPU chip (the last point important if you want to say put your PC in the livingroom beside the TV and are concerned about noise :-) ). > Most importantly, it should be able to show movies > without bogging down > too much, but otherwise I'm not looking for much in > the way of > performance. Reading text in a terminal is not too > challenging, after > all. Thanks. > -- > > yours, > > William > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 00:03:29 2005 From: itz-4SqnbbNSRR0 at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 19 Oct 2005 20:03:29 -0400 Subject: Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019232551.35528.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019232551.35528.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87psq1rr5a.fsf@buug.org> William> If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop machine, William> what should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, William> obviously, and preferably an Open Source driver rather than a William> 3rd-party binary. Colin> Well, I would start with the nVidia based cards (sad to say at Colin> the MOMENT the ATI drivers as are not up to snuff). Unless you Colin> are getting into games any of the various nVidia 5xxx series Colin> should do fine. On the MythTV Users mailing list the nVidia FX Colin> 5200 cards get a fair bit of positive comment, because they are Colin> inexpensive, can take anything MythTV can throw at them, and Colin> there are versions of this card without a fan for the card's GPU Colin> chip (the last point important if you want to say put your PC in Colin> the livingroom beside the TV and are concerned about noise :-) ). But are there non-crippled free drivers? A few years ago anyone with a nVidia card was advised to use nVidia's proprietary drivers because the specs necessary to do acceleration were secret. Has this changed? -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 00:08:41 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:08:41 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051019192852.GD5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051018232805.2774.qmail@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>Herb Richter was noting that he has wanted >>a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose When/Why?" >>type meeting for some time, and he was suggesting that >>might be a great topic for a meeting at the show. >> >> > >To me that sounds like exactly the kind of topic you wouldn't want. It >always turns into a huge distribution war when that topic comes up, >unless you don't allow any questions/opinions to be stated by the >audience. > > I think the subject of distributions is worth discussing at the show, but I suggest a slightly different spin that will both serve our aims at the show and have an excellent chance of avoiding what Lennart justifiably fears above. Remember the audience. This is NewTLUG, designed for newbies, presenting at a tradeshow in order to attract more newbies and possibly some vendors. We want something that's informative without being preachy. I suggest a theme of "Linux distributions: What are they, why are there so many, and how do you choose?". There is a certain amount of FUD out there that considers Linux's hundreds of distributions an obstacle. Even some (IMO misguided) Linux supporters think that a significant shakedown or consolidation is necessary before Linux sufficiently gets into the mainstream. I dealt with this issue four years ago in a ZDNet article (http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-6033_16-4205690.html) but it's still relevant now. Yes, there should be a brief overview of each of the major distributions, each preferably given by a user of it, describing particular strengths and focus. But these should not come until AFTER addressing the basic questions: - What is a distribution? - Who can make one and how would they do it? - Why would anyone make a new one when there are already so many good ones out there? - Why are some distributions free and some sold commercially? - What's the difference between Fedora and RedHat? Between Debian and Ubuntu? - Can you mix free and non-free software? - What are the factors to consider when choosing one to use? The answers to these are not obvious to the mainstream. I volunteer to be presenter of the general part, and collector of the various people to speak on each distro. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 00:49:12 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:49:12 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <4356E009.4010302-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 19, 2005 20:08, Evan Leibovitch wrote: [snip] > Yes, there should be a brief overview of each of the major > distributions, each preferably given by a user of it, describing > particular strengths and focus. But these should not come until > AFTER addressing the basic questions: > > - What is a distribution? > - Who can make one and how would they do it? > - Why would anyone make a new one when there are already so many > good ones out there? > - Why are some distributions free and some sold commercially? > - What's the difference between Fedora and RedHat? Between Debian > and Ubuntu? > - Can you mix free and non-free software? > - What are the factors to consider when choosing one to use? How can people make money from Open Source? I hear this question all the time from customers. They are used to paying for software and figure that if a given software package is free, its author did not believe it was good enough to sell. > The answers to these are not obvious to the mainstream. They are not necessarily obvious to those who are immersed in Linux either. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 01:01:11 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:01:11 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510191801m595b00a0tea8b533cebbc6589@mail.gmail.com> > [snip] > How can people make money from Open Source? I hear this question all > the time from customers. They are used to paying for software and > figure that if a given software package is free, its author did not > believe it was good enough to sell. This is a relatively large topic and there are 5 or 6 business models* built around selling open source and related services. A good place to start though is with the definition of "free." One of the original reasons for coining the term "Open Source" was to try and clarify the meaning of "free software." It does _not_ necessarily mean free as in cost, but was originally intended to be free as in "freedom." It's the main reason I prefer the acronym f/loss (Free/Libre and Open Source Software) or foss... the libre portion gives context to the word free. * Will have to dig up some old bookmarks that cover these. When I find them, I can post 'em or send them to you off list to review if you'd like. -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 01:07:11 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:07:11 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510191801m595b00a0tea8b533cebbc6589-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <99a6c38f0510191801m595b00a0tea8b533cebbc6589@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510191807o219649f7vae0a62ba92263772@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, psema4 wrote: > > [snip] > > How can people make money from Open Source? I hear this question all > > the time from customers. They are used to paying for software and > > figure that if a given software package is free, its author did not > > believe it was good enough to sell. > > This is a relatively large topic and there are 5 or 6 business models* > built around selling open source and related services. A good place > to start though is with the definition of "free." One of the original > reasons for coining the term "Open Source" was to try and clarify the > meaning of "free software." It does _not_ necessarily mean free as in > cost, but was originally intended to be free as in "freedom." > > It's the main reason I prefer the acronym f/loss (Free/Libre and Open > Source Software) or foss... the libre portion gives context to the > word free. Sorry, that was supposed to be prefer f/loss -over- foss. > * Will have to dig up some old bookmarks that cover these. When I > find them, I can post 'em or send them to you off list to review if > you'd like. Needed to correct that line above, so I grabbed a few links off google that relate to Open Source business models. The first one is fairly decent place to start. ;-) http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php http://management.itmanagersjournal.com/management/04/05/10/2052216.shtml?tid=85 http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/OSBusMod.html http://digitalenterprise.org/models/models.html -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 01:46:46 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:46:46 -0400 Subject: [good]Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019225235.GA6447-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051019214646.7a1b60ce.tleslie@tcn.net> i bought about the best nvidia for my machine (on the marktet 18 months ago). it has a horrible bug that the accelerated playback of video, i.e. xv or something that can be hardware scaled, goes to "BLUE" and stays blue unless one drops out of X and comes back in (you dont have to reboot). It happens maybe 2-3 times a week if you say maybe view 1/2 of video. It was so annoying as I would not normally used to having to restart X. (i just check today , one of my desktop regular use machines has been up 267 days, with no reboot and no X restart), so i get used to having ssh windows, browser windows, etc stay up and stay put for 100's of days on end, and restarting X even only twice a week or so was annoying. So i switched to an old early ATI radeon, and it has been perfect for many months. I googled, scowered kernel new posting, emailed, updated drivers, update kernels, tried it on a diff mother board, no matter what, the Nvidia will blue out permanently on HW video playback. And i had it happen with another NV card to. And others on the news groups have experienced it and their is know post sol'n. So I liked the Nvidia's performance, and Nvidia has drivers out timely for new kernels, but if you like your desktop to stay put for atleast 30+ days (to a few 100's) and you play back video, the Nvidia could be very very risky. You can play back video in non-accelerated mode (once it goes blue), but that means no realtime scaling, filters (i.e. de-interlacing which is important on tv captures). By the way , if you decide on Nvidia .... I have a used MSI Nvidia (chip set) FX 5900 (8x AGP) for sale! -tl On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:52:35 -0400 "William O'Higgins Witteman" wrote: > If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop machine, what > should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, obviously, and > preferably an Open Source driver rather than a 3rd-party binary. > > Most importantly, it should be able to show movies without bogging down > too much, but otherwise I'm not looking for much in the way of > performance. Reading text in a terminal is not too challenging, after > all. Thanks. > -- > > yours, > > William > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 01:53:18 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:53:18 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/05, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On October 19, 2005 20:08, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > [snip] > > Yes, there should be a brief overview of each of the major > > distributions, each preferably given by a user of it, describing > > particular strengths and focus. But these should not come until > > AFTER addressing the basic questions: > > > > - What is a distribution? > > - Who can make one and how would they do it? > > - Why would anyone make a new one when there are already so many > > good ones out there? > > - Why are some distributions free and some sold commercially? > > - What's the difference between Fedora and RedHat? Between Debian > > and Ubuntu? > > - Can you mix free and non-free software? > > - What are the factors to consider when choosing one to use? > > How can people make money from Open Source? I hear this question all > the time from customers. They are used to paying for software and > figure that if a given software package is free, its author did not > believe it was good enough to sell. And remember that one of the answers is... "By virtue of the money I am SAVING on licensing fees." The company I work for spends a fair bit supporting open source software, not on the basis that they will MAKE MONEY, but rather on the basis that they will SAVE MONEY. In principle, it might be plausible that we could sell some the software and "make money," but reality is that we haven't got the resources in house to do the things needed to do so, such as: - A legal department oriented to writing EULAs - A sales department oriented to selling software licenses If an enterprise hasn't got an existing business group that sells software licenses, then getting into "making money" from selling software is pretty dubious. OSS means you don't have to sell it to profit from it. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 02:36:52 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:36:52 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <435702C4.5010508@telly.org> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >How can people make money from Open Source? > This is an importrant question, but I don't think it's the right topic at the tradeshow. The show floor is a parade of vendors offering examples of how to make/save money from open source. Arguably, that is the prime purpose of the show. A user group should offer a contrast, a breather, something that vendors can't or won't talk about. If the goal is to interest people in {T,NewT,GTA}LUG, you don't want to offer the same kind of presentations as the vendors. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 02:47:14 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:47:14 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435702C4.5010508-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <435702C4.5010508@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510191947r69a4c918n371d739ad6251bd6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/19/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > >How can people make money from Open Source? > > > > This is an importrant question, but I don't think it's the right topic > at the tradeshow. > > The show floor is a parade of vendors offering examples of how to > make/save money from open source. Arguably, that is the prime purpose of > the show. A user group should offer a contrast, a breather, something > that vendors can't or won't talk about. > > If the goal is to interest people in {T,NewT,GTA}LUG, you don't want to > offer the same kind of presentations as the vendors. This is where I think the fud-buster idea is good. Those vendors are marketing something. FUD is an important part of modern marketing. To combat that (in a part such as I can do), there is also this: http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/5786 (I'm sorry, don't know a way at the moment to list the entire thread the way this list can be on gmane. I absolutely love that about gtalug's list. :-) -- - SGE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 08:02:30 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:02:30 -0400 Subject: best way to synchronize laptop and server? In-Reply-To: <435689E1.3000305-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435689E1.3000305@telly.org> Message-ID: <200510200402.30293.marc@lijour.net> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 14:01, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I have a laptop and a server, both running current Mandriva, and want > top be able to synchronize two directory hierarchies. > After a while of the laptop being disconnected from the network, when I > reconnect I can make sure that both systems contain current versions of > files in these hierarchies. > > When connected to the network, the laptop mounts the server directories > using SMB (it's a mixed-client network). > > There must be a better way to do this than `cpio -p`. Freshmeat has a > number of projects listed that seem to suit, but I'd like to know what > people here are using. > > Thanks for any suggestions. rsync unisson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 08:12:08 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:12:08 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <435667AE.9080407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> <4356666D.8050507@rogers.com> <435667AE.9080407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200510200412.12912.marc@lijour.net> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 11:35, James Knott wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> James Knott said: > >>> kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>>> At May's PegaSoft dinner meeting, Linux in schools (not universities) > >>>> was discussed: > >>>> > >>>> "There has been a significant interest in Linux in schools, > >>>> particularly > >> > >> in the > >> > >>>> UK. The problem with bringing Linux into schools in Canada is that > >>>> schools here have established agendas, hierarchies and large budgets. > >>>> There needs to be spending cuts to education in order to generate > >>>> interest in Linux. Schools in the UK have smaller budgets making > >>>> Linux more attractive." > >>>> > >>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/minutes/may_2005.html > >>> > >>> I guess you missed this. > >>> > >>> >>>> > >> > >> No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying > >> a commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that > >> the heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always > >> buy the commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against > >> installing Linux or using open source because they don't care about > >> price--they can always pass the cost back to the government. > >> > >> This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently > >> and Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with > >> much success. > > > > 1) I believe the "educational" StarOffice licence is free. > > 2) People using StarOffice at school are more likely to consider > > OpenOffice elsewhere, than those who've only used MS Office. > > Forgot to mention, StarOffice is built on OpenOffice. StarOffice is free for Education (see license). Buying the CD would cost you a flat fee of 25$, which was of great value because the admin gets to install and carry the CD everywhere he wants plus it had some add-on I believe (manual?). Talking about manual, SO-OOo are fully localized and SO comes with a 500+ pages manual and OOo is starting to get pretty good tutorials of all kinds online (prepared classroom material). I work in a high-school and the board is becoming tougher and tougher. I cannot even have access to the username list of my students, forget about setting up accounts, install programs, and give an opinion. Behind me there are other generations of frustrated teachers. My point is this: the politics at the board and whether or not they are knowledgeable will rule your day-to-day life. I have offered countless times free advice, help, web application to respond to some needs, programs, network evaluations, and so on. And basically all is ignored. However there is a HUGE potential for improvement, even if limiting the scope to sync with today's technology (move from win98 to XP at least, or better Linux), move from VB apps to more solid and user-friendly apps, ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 12:08:10 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:08:10 -0400 Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <200510200412.12912.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019145607.B28A017C32C@www.istop.com> <4356666D.8050507@rogers.com> <435667AE.9080407@rogers.com> <200510200412.12912.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <435788AA.9070103@rogers.com> Marc Lijour wrote: >>>>> I guess you missed this. >>>>> >>>>> >>> No, it was discussed. I believe the opinions were that they were buying >>>> a commercial product (StarOffice) not OpenOffice. The point was that >>>> the heavily funded and beaucratic school boards in Ontario will always >>>> buy the commerical software and most of them are heavily biased against >>>> installing Linux or using open source because they don't care about >>>> price--they can always pass the cost back to the government. >>>> >>>> This is compared to the UK where the school board are run differently >>>> and Linux and open source are more attractive options and meeting with >>>> much success. >>> 1) I believe the "educational" StarOffice licence is free. >>> 2) People using StarOffice at school are more likely to consider >>> OpenOffice elsewhere, than those who've only used MS Office. >> Forgot to mention, StarOffice is built on OpenOffice. > > StarOffice is free for Education (see license). > Buying the CD would cost you a flat fee of 25$, which was of great value > because the admin gets to install and carry the CD everywhere he wants plus > it had some add-on I believe (manual?). Talking about manual, SO-OOo are > fully localized and SO comes with a 500+ pages manual and OOo is starting to > get pretty good tutorials of all kinds online (prepared classroom material). > > I work in a high-school and the board is becoming tougher and tougher. I > cannot even have access to the username list of my students, forget about > setting up accounts, install programs, and give an opinion. Behind me there > are other generations of frustrated teachers. > My point is this: the politics at the board and whether or not they are > knowledgeable will rule your day-to-day life. > I have offered countless times free advice, help, web application to respond > to some needs, programs, network evaluations, and so on. And basically all is > ignored. > However there is a HUGE potential for improvement, even if limiting the scope > to sync with today's technology (move from win98 to XP at least, or better > Linux), move from VB apps to more solid and user-friendly apps, ... At the top of this message is a link I provided about the Ministry of Education arranging for StarOffice for all Ontario students. Have you seen that in your school? If not, perhaps you could remind someone about it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 13:31:14 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:31:14 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435702C4.5010508-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <435702C4.5010508@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051020133114.GC12648@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 10:36:52PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > >How can people make money from Open Source? > > > > This is an importrant question, but I don't think it's the right topic > at the tradeshow. > > The show floor is a parade of vendors offering examples of how to > make/save money from open source. Arguably, that is the prime purpose of > the show. A user group should offer a contrast, a breather, something > that vendors can't or won't talk about. > > If the goal is to interest people in {T,NewT,GTA}LUG, you don't want to > offer the same kind of presentations as the vendors. I agreee to an extent. You (assuming that you, Evan, are the presenter) will have to be prepared to answer questions of the form "Since noone can make money from this stuff, what will keep it developing in a useful direction to meet my future needs?" -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 13:27:23 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:27:23 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020133114.GC12648-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <435702C4.5010508@telly.org> <20051020133114.GC12648@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <43579B3B.9090603@telly.org> John Macdonald wrote: > >I agreee to an extent. You (assuming that you, Evan, are the >presenter) will have to be prepared to answer questions of the >form "Since noone can make money from this stuff, what will keep >it developing in a useful direction to meet my future needs?" > > That question is pointless, since its premise (no-one can make money) is provably untrue. The more general and useful question of "what is being done to ensure that open source will evolve to meet my needs" has multiple answers, but that's getting beyond the point of this thread. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:08:13 2005 From: tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org (Tom Low-Shang) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:08:13 -0400 Subject: Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019225235.GA6447-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051020140813.GA27257@low-shang.homelinux.com> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 06:52:35PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop machine, what > should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, obviously, and > preferably an Open Source driver rather than a 3rd-party binary. > > Most importantly, it should be able to show movies without bogging down > too much, but otherwise I'm not looking for much in the way of > performance. Reading text in a terminal is not too challenging, after > all. Thanks. http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/Status is a good reference for which graphics cards have open source drivers. Using the information on that site, I bought this older ATI card: http://www.factorydirect.ca/catalog/product_spec.php?pcode=AT9250. It works flawlessly. Movies play smoothly and the 3D acceleration works well enough to run FlightGear Flight Simulator on my aging dual PII 350 from 1998. -- Tom Low-Shang \ Toronto, Canada Software Developer / 416 321 1394 * Embedded Systems \ tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org * Industrial Automation / -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:08:03 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:08:03 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released Message-ID: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> It appears that OpenOffice 2.0 has now been officially released. www.openoffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:54:07 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:54:07 -0400 Subject: OS software development best practices In-Reply-To: <434ECA62.2010408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4357AF8F.4060001@rogers.com> Thought this might be of interest to Madison Kelly and others. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8184340221.html paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:34:58 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020133114.GC12648-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <435702C4.5010508@telly.org> <20051020133114.GC12648@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <200510201134.59949.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 20, 2005 09:31, John Macdonald wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 10:36:52PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > >How can people make money from Open Source? > > > > This is an importrant question, but I don't think it's the right > > topic at the tradeshow. > > > > The show floor is a parade of vendors offering examples of how to > > make/save money from open source. Arguably, that is the prime > > purpose of the show. A user group should offer a contrast, a > > breather, something that vendors can't or won't talk about. > > > > If the goal is to interest people in {T,NewT,GTA}LUG, you don't > > want to offer the same kind of presentations as the vendors. > > I agreee to an extent. You (assuming that you, Evan, are the > presenter) will have to be prepared to answer questions of the > form "Since noone can make money from this stuff, what will keep > it developing in a useful direction to meet my future needs?" I am amused by how this thread has morphed from me mentioning what my customers are asking me to me supposedly asking how people make money from Open Source. I am not the one you have to convince. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:00:47 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:00:47 -0400 Subject: OS software development best practices In-Reply-To: <4357AF8F.4060001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <434ECA62.2010408@alteeve.com> <4357AF8F.4060001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4357BF2F.5060903@alteeve.com> Paul DiRezze wrote: > Thought this might be of interest to Madison Kelly and others. > > http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8184340221.html > > paul That looks really interesting, thank you for pointing it out. I will look into it today. :) Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:10:11 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:10:11 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: <4357A4C3.4070106-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051020161011.GA2227@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:08:03AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > It appears that OpenOffice 2.0 has now been officially released. > > www.openoffice.org Damn them. I just downloaded rc2 while ago. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:19:22 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:19:22 -0400 Subject: Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019225235.GA6447-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051020161922.GF5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 06:52:35PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > If I was buying a new video card today for a desktop machine, what > should I buy? I want complete support under Linux, obviously, and > preferably an Open Source driver rather than a 3rd-party binary. > > Most importantly, it should be able to show movies without bogging down > too much, but otherwise I'm not looking for much in the way of > performance. Reading text in a terminal is not too challenging, after > all. Thanks. Well it depends on your needs: 3D opengl: nvidia using non-free drivers. There simply is no other choice that works. 2D only: Well most nvidia cards work just fine using the free nv driver. I believe it does have some xvideo support, but I am not entirely sure. I do tend to use the non-free drivers myself so I can use 3D applications. Matrox used to have very good free drivers, but that seemed to stop with the 450 or 550 chip, and has been just about non existant ever since. I haven't really looked at them since, since they don't make cards for the kind of use I want anymore. ATI makes some nice hardware too, unfortunately they have a reputation of crappy driver support, especially for linux (although I have enough personal bad experience with their windows drivers too to last a lifetime.) intel has rather good free driver support as far as I can tell, but only do integrated video in their chipsets (which still makes them the #1 selling graphics chips). Don't expect 3D, but at least 2D seems to run just fine on most of them. If it was me buying something, I would get an nvidia and put up with the non-free drivers. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:21:57 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:21:57 -0400 Subject: [good]Video Card Recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051019214646.7a1b60ce.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019225235.GA6447@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051019214646.7a1b60ce.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051020162157.GG5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 09:46:46PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > i bought about the best nvidia for my machine (on the marktet 18 months ago). > it has a horrible bug that the accelerated playback of video, > i.e. xv or something that can be hardware scaled, > goes to "BLUE" and stays blue unless one drops out of X and comes back in > (you dont have to reboot). > It happens maybe 2-3 times a week if you say maybe view 1/2 of video. > It was so annoying as I would not normally used to having to restart X. > (i just check today , one of my desktop regular use machines has been up 267 days, with no > reboot and no X restart), so i get used to having ssh windows, browser windows, etc stay up and stay > put for 100's of days on end, and restarting X even only twice a week or so was annoying. > So i switched to an old early ATI radeon, and it has been perfect for many months. > I googled, scowered kernel new posting, emailed, updated drivers, update kernels, > tried it on a diff mother board, no matter what, the Nvidia will blue out permanently on > HW video playback. And i had it happen with another NV card to. And others on the news groups > have experienced it and their is know post sol'n. > So I liked the Nvidia's performance, and Nvidia has drivers out timely for new kernels, > but if you like your desktop to stay put for atleast 30+ days (to a few 100's) > and you play back video, the Nvidia could be very very risky. > You can play back video in non-accelerated mode (once it goes blue), but that means no > realtime scaling, filters (i.e. de-interlacing which is important on tv captures). I believe that driver bug was fixed a long time ago. I do remember it though. > By the way , if you decide on Nvidia .... > I have a used MSI Nvidia (chip set) FX 5900 (8x AGP) for sale! Was a rather nice card, although it might be a bad choice for a system for showing videos given the very large fan it has. Not a 5800 by any means, but still quite the fan. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:20:44 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:20:44 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: <20051020161011.GA2227-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> <20051020161011.GA2227@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4357C3DC.5020002@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:08:03AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> It appears that OpenOffice 2.0 has now been officially released. >> >> www.openoffice.org > > Damn them. I just downloaded rc2 while ago. > You mean you missed RC3? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:04:22 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:04:22 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051019222437.81781.qmail-DooQHYYYUaiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019222437.81781.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051020170422.GH5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 06:24:37PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Agreed the choice of speaker(s)/panelist will be key > here. In my case on any given day at home I will be > running: > > - Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten everything > else). I like all my systems being compatible and consistent. So I stick to Debian for everything. > - Debian (good general purpose desktop, excellent > server). > - Knoppix (great for solving some problems). Great for having linux anywhere (almost) you want it. > - Fedora Core 4 (very good general purpose desktop). I got tired of redhat's buggy releases, so I haven't looked at FC, and probably won't ever. > Debian has it's place, but would not be my pick for a > router (Coyote!), and if I had a box that was in > trouble I would not want to try to rescue the box with > Debian (Knoppix). Well I certainly use it for routers. Works rather well for that in my opinion. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:08:54 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:08:54 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510181428s608b7123ib23416fcff1065cd@mail.gmail.com> <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4356E009.4010302@telly.org> <200510192049.13125.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051020170854.GI5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 08:49:12PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > How can people make money from Open Source? I hear this question all > the time from customers. They are used to paying for software and > figure that if a given software package is free, its author did not > believe it was good enough to sell. You sell a physical piece of hardware which uses open source code on it that you customize to do something unique and useful on your hardware and offer support for it. People will pay money for that and be quite happy about it in general. They don't really care if you think the cost of the software is $0 and the hardare $1000 as long as the price is $1000 that they pay. You could charge $900 for software and $100 for hardware if you wanted to claim that was the difference, but they still pay $1000 for the overall product. Do you really care how much GM pays for the wheels on a car? No you care how much they charge for the car. > They are not necessarily obvious to those who are immersed in Linux > either. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:23:09 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:23:09 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: <4357A4C3.4070106-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/05, James Knott wrote: > It appears that OpenOffice 2.0 has now been officially released. > > www.openoffice.org Does anyone know where I can find the revision history and new features? I can't seem to find it on their site after some searching. Thanks. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:25:36 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:25:36 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4357D310.1060001@rogers.com> Steve wrote: > On 10/20/05, James Knott wrote: >> It appears that OpenOffice 2.0 has now been officially released. >> >> www.openoffice.org > > Does anyone know where I can find the revision history and new > features? I can't seem to find it on their site after some searching. I can't help you with the revision history, but the features are listed on the OO site. There's one list, that gives a brief overview and another, with a lot of detail. You'll have to search around a bit. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:47:05 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:47:05 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020170422.GH5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019222437.81781.qmail@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051020170422.GH5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051020174705.GA2683@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:04:22PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 06:24:37PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > > - Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten everything else). > > I like all my systems being compatible and consistent. So I stick to > Debian for everything. Same here, but it's Slackware. :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:52:14 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020170422.GH5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020170422.GH5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051020175214.86403.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 06:24:37PM -0400, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > Agreed the choice of speaker(s)/panelist will be > key > > here. In my case on any given day at home I will > be > > running: > > > > - Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten > everything > > else). > > I like all my systems being compatible and > consistent. So I stick to > Debian for everything. While an argument can be made for keeping things consistant, I prefer a varied enviroment for several reasons. In the case of Coyote, it will run happily off a single floppy, dispensing with the bother (and potential for failure) of a hard drive. In my office enviroment I am currently dealing with a mix of Windows (ugh!), FreeBSD boxes and an old RedHat box. I don't know what I will run into at the next workplace (some place I hope to move to soon, if anyone is looking for a system admin. (or knows of someone looking) e-mail me)), but I do know that for learning purposes I DON'T want everything the same at home. > > - Debian (good general purpose desktop, excellent > > server). > > - Knoppix (great for solving some problems). > > Great for having linux anywhere (almost) you want > it. Agreed, and for cleaning up problems sometimes created by other OSs. > > - Fedora Core 4 (very good general purpose > desktop). > > I got tired of redhat's buggy releases, so I haven't > looked at FC, and > probably won't ever. I was NOT thrilled with the way Red Hat transitioned to Fedora Core (not that I can totaly blame Red Hat, I gather they were loosing money on the likes of RedHat 9, and hey they have to make enough to eat...). I used to be a BIG Red Hat fan, but that mishandled transition got me to move my main Linux box to Debian. Still, as a training tool I keep my 2nd oldest Linux PC running FC4 (the oldest PC runs Coyote :-) )... > > Debian has it's place, but would not be my pick > for a > > router (Coyote!), and if I had a box that was in > > trouble I would not want to try to rescue the box > with > > Debian (Knoppix). > > Well I certainly use it for routers. Works rather > well for that in my > opinion. I am sure Debian can/does do a very satisfactory job as a router, but in my books Coyote is a cheaper/better solution. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:59:53 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051019192852.GD5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 07:28:04PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > > Spoke to Herb Richter earlier today and he is game to > > do the April NewTLUG meeting at the show (there are > > some details that I need to check on but it looks like > > that may well come together). The main GTALUG meeting > > will likely be a different story... > > > > Any event, Herb Richter was noting that he has wanted > > a "Which Linux Distribution Do You Choose When/Why?" > > type meeting for some time, and he was suggesting that > > might be a great topic for a meeting at the show. Here > > we could have several people speaking about why they > > like a particular distribution and why. > > To me that sounds like exactly the kind of topic you wouldn't want. It > always turns into a huge distribution war when that topic comes up, > unless you don't allow any questions/opinions to be stated by the > audience. Yes we would have to ensure that the meeting doesn't get derailed - but we have to do that anyway. The fact that, in the past, the topic has become a distro war is exactly why I'd like to see / hear a civilized constructive discussion. I've been setting up a new workstation for myself and *thought* I knew what distro and flavour I wanted based on what I thought I knew of the choices. Well I'm still shopping... I'm thinking that a rational unemotional check-your-egos-at-the-door presentation would benefit *many* users, old and new. To see the strengths and new razzle-dazzle is fun. To see someone point out the weaknesses can save all of us a lot of time. Annnd, this could be a good chance to put a positive spin on what may be a big negative in the public's eye - the confusing number of Linux choices. We could show choice, control, selection, specialization, customization and flexibility to be what serious users want and what makes systems more secure - what we have - along with, nowadays, simple and easy right out of the box. -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:20:35 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:20:35 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051017205532.14133.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 16:55, Colin McGregor wrote: > One of the questions that the show organizers have > raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the > April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The > show organizers would be happy to supply some free > evening conference rooms, and provide some AV > equipment.[ ... ] > So, feedback anyone? > > Colin McGregor If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps they'll provide a second room for an installfest? Might the trade show be a good environment for that? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:29:45 2005 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:29:45 -0400 Subject: PHP Developer Message-ID: <70C7E310DB3B5F498D4F6AD8FBBFCC51727679@lynchmail2.lynch.msft> Hello Everyone: We have a need for a PHP developer. This is a contract position and more information can be found at http://lynchdigital.com/index.php?id=76 Interested parties should know what to do. Regards, Wil McGilvery General Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 905-363-1600 905-363-4297 Ext. 248 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 905-363-1194? FAX www.LynchDigital.com (Need help? Email us at networksupport-SrmdgkHaRgH0d+JFtaHRRQ at public.gmane.org) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:44:56 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051020184456.GJ5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:23:09PM -0400, Steve wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find the revision history and new > features? I can't seem to find it on their site after some searching. http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/2.0/index.html I thought it was really easy to find. I wasn't even looking for it. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:56:51 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice 2.0 released In-Reply-To: <20051020184456.GJ5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4357A4C3.4070106@rogers.com> <20051020184456.GJ5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/20/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:23:09PM -0400, Steve wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can find the revision history and new > > features? I can't seem to find it on their site after some searching. > > http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/2.0/index.html > > I thought it was really easy to find. I wasn't even looking for it. > > Lennart Sorensen Thanks... Next time I'll try that method. -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 19:10:23 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <1129832435.31687.40.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: <20051020191023.52816.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- interlug-list wrote: > On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 16:55, Colin McGregor wrote: > > One of the questions that the show organizers have > > raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting > the > > April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". > The > > show organizers would be happy to supply some free > > evening conference rooms, and provide some AV > > equipment.[ ... ] > > So, feedback anyone? > > > > Colin McGregor > > If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps > they'll provide a > second room for an installfest? Might the trade > show be a good > environment for that? My impression is that if they have a room available and we can do something interesting with it, then it is ours. In other words, yes we could likely get a room for an installfest. The next question is would it be wise? The answer to the wisdom of running an install fest at the show is an open question. The show organizers will NOT pay for our internet connectivity at the show (we are on our own for that, and we are on our own should we want to serve food/drink at the show). The convention centre does have internet connectivity available, for a price (I don't recall the numbers from when I last looked into this for the World Science Fiction Convention about 2.5 years ago, but they were totally ABSURD). So, the question we must ask is "Can we do this without access to the net (for drivers, reference info., etc.), or can we find a sponsor who would pay for our connection at the show?". Not sure as to that answer... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 19:30:00 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:30:00 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question Message-ID: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> Hi all, I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p I hope this isn't an overly obvious question but I can't find the answer I need on the 'urpmi' man page or on Mandriva's website. Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms this would be: # apt-get install foo bar baz I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: # urpmi --install nano It tells me that it can't find 'nano'. When I run 'rpmdrake' and search for 'nano' though it finds it just fine. The trick is that I really want to figure out a command-line app that will handle the install. Thanks all! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:03:19 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:03:19 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020191023.52816.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020191023.52816.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051020200319.GA8696@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 03:10:23PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- interlug-list wrote: > > If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps they'll provide a > > second room for an installfest? Might the trade show be a good > > environment for that? > > My impression is that if they have a room available > and we can do something interesting with it, then it > is ours. In other words, yes we could likely get a > room for an installfest. The next question is would it > be wise? > > The answer to the wisdom of running an install fest at > the show is an open question. The show organizers will > NOT pay for our internet connectivity at the show (we > are on our own for that, and we are on our own should > we want to serve food/drink at the show). The 1. Installfest is good idea. It's better than having mere discussion on distros. It gives people the chance to see something with their own eyes. Perhaps, we should have several machine running major distros, as demo. 2. Why do we need Internet connection at all? Aren't we installing off CD/DVD? 3. Perhaps, we should bring other LUGs with us, like Peterborough, Kitchener/Waterloo, Hamilton, etc. If they have people doing something special (eg. VoIP), this will be an opportunity to demo their stuff. Bunch of people handing out their business cards is meaningless and distracting. But, if they have something that people can touch, see, and try out, then, yes, it serves their interest and it serves our interest. I'll bring this up at the next board meeting. Colin, if you can attend, we would like to hear more detail. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:13:36 2005 From: devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Devin Whalen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:13:36 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question In-Reply-To: <4357F038.7050406-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1129839216.8101.18.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 15:30 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p I > hope this isn't an overly obvious question but I can't find the answer I > need on the 'urpmi' man page or on Mandriva's website. > > Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what > command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms > this would be: > > # apt-get install foo bar baz > > I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: > > # urpmi --install nano > > It tells me that it can't find 'nano'. When I run 'rpmdrake' and > search for 'nano' though it finds it just fine. The trick is that I > really want to figure out a command-line app that will handle the install. > > Thanks all! > > Madison > Hey, I have to admit that I am not really an expert on urpmi but I do use it a lot in a very basic way. I think the problem might be that you have to have your media added to urpmi. For example these are the commands that I used to get the main and contrib media available to me: urpmi.addmedia main ftp://ftp.caliu.info/pub/distribucions/mandrake/devel/10.1/i586/media/main with media_info/hdlist.cz urpmi.addmedia contrib ftp://ftp.caliu.info/pub/distribucions/mandrake/devel/10.1/i586/media/contrib with media_info/hdlist.cz This will allow me to run urpmi -a mplayer and if these sites have the latest version of mplayer then it will install it and all its dependencies. However, for your situation I think that you will have to set up your own urpmi site so that you can offer the latest versions of your software. For example I use the xfce window manager and the above mentioned sites are never up to date whereas, this site always has the latest versions. So I ran this when I first installed 10.1: urpmi.addmedia eslrahc http://www.eslrahc.com/10.1/ with hdlist.cz and now whenever a new release of xfce is out I run urpmi.update -a (this is optional) then uprmi -a xfce and if the guy who runs the site http://www.eslrahc.com/ has added the updated rpms then I will get them. So I guess if you set up your own site that would offer rpms of your software then you could run a script to get the latest media. However, I have absolutely no idea how to set up a urpmi site. Or you could add your rpm to another site. However, this is all from someone who is using 10.1, so maybe the commands have changed. BTW, how is Mandriva 2006? I am thinking about upgrading and was just wondering what your thoughts are so far. Later -- Devin Whalen Programmer Synaptic Vision Inc Phone-(416) 539-0801 Fax- (416) 539-8280 543 Richmond Street West Toronto, Ontario Suite 223 M5V 1Y6 Box 105 Home-(416) 653-3982 Take back the Web with FireFox....a browser you can trust www.getfirefox.com .-. /v\ L I N U X // \\ /( )\ ^^-^^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:22:01 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:22:01 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question In-Reply-To: <4357F038.7050406-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200510201622.01965.marc@lijour.net> On Thursday 20 October 2005 15:30, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p I > hope this isn't an overly obvious question but I can't find the answer I > need on the 'urpmi' man page or on Mandriva's website. > > Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what > command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms > this would be: > > # apt-get install foo bar baz > > I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: > > # urpmi --install nano urpmi nano you have urpmi, urpme (erase), urpmf (find), urpmi.update -a, urpmq, urpmi.addmedia ... These are the ones you use more often. Ah, you have also urpmi --auto-select (to update your system based on the new sources you added; the equivalent of the update program in the MCC - Mandriva Control Center - DrakConf). Try this also: http://addmedia.linuxfornewbies.org/ (to get your sources right!) > > It tells me that it can't find 'nano'. When I run 'rpmdrake' and > search for 'nano' though it finds it just fine. The trick is that I > really want to figure out a command-line app that will handle the install. > > Thanks all! > > Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:24:00 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020200319.GA8696-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020200319.GA8696@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051020202401.10093.qmail@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- William Park wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 03:10:23PM -0400, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > --- interlug-list wrote: > > > If they'll provide one room for a meeting, > perhaps they'll provide a > > > second room for an installfest? Might the trade > show be a good > > > environment for that? > > > > My impression is that if they have a room > available > > and we can do something interesting with it, then > it > > is ours. In other words, yes we could likely get a > > room for an installfest. The next question is > would it > > be wise? > > > > The answer to the wisdom of running an install > fest at > > the show is an open question. The show organizers > will > > NOT pay for our internet connectivity at the show > (we > > are on our own for that, and we are on our own > should > > we want to serve food/drink at the show). The > > > 1. Installfest is good idea. It's better than > having mere discussion on > distros. It gives people the chance to see > something with their own > eyes. Perhaps, we should have several machine > running major > distros, as demo. I don't see a problem with doing both an install fest AND a NewTLUG meeting, assuming we can get the volunteers, and other stuff can be worked out. > 2. Why do we need Internet connection at all? > Aren't we installing off > CD/DVD? Yes, I would plan to install off CDs/DVDs, etc. What concerns me is what if we are faced with a person who for the sake of argument wants us to make a Zork brand model Grue cave navigation system work (or some other exotic hardware that nobody at the install fest has ever heard of). I would want the back-up of some sort of Internet connection to locate reference material and download drivers. > 3. Perhaps, we should bring other LUGs with us, like > Peterborough, > Kitchener/Waterloo, Hamilton, etc. If they have > people doing > something special (eg. VoIP), this will be an > opportunity to demo > their stuff. This may be an interesting idea... > Bunch of people handing out their business cards > is meaningless and > distracting. But, if they have something that > people can touch, > see, and try out, then, yes, it serves their > interest and it serves > our interest. > > I'll bring this up at the next board meeting. > Colin, if you can > attend, we would like to hear more detail. Assuming it doesn't conflict with something already in my schedule I would be delighted to attend the next board meeting. The only things I am currently looking at over the next few weeks is a Toronto Free-Net meeting (Wed. Oct. 26), GTALUG Nov. 8th, and Unix Unanimous Nov. 9th. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:25:38 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:25:38 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020175214.86403.qmail-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020175214.86403.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4357FD42.9000807@pppoe.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: In my case on any given day at home I will >> >>be >> >>>running: >>> >>>- Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten >> >>everything >> >>>else). and if I had a box that was in >>>trouble I would not want to try to rescue the box >> >>with >> >>>Debian (Knoppix). The last time I tried Coyote Linux, it was great as a firewall. Much has been written about Knoppix to the rescue. I haven't used it for rescue and am curious as to your reasons you would not want to. I know that there are other rescue tools. What would you recommend? Thanks. Meng Cheah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:28:49 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <4357FD42.9000807-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4357FD42.9000807@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051020202849.14506.qmail@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Meng Cheah wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: > In my case on any given day at home I will > >> > >>be > >> > >>>running: > >>> > >>>- Coyote Linux (fantastic router, rotten > >> > >>everything > >> > >>>else). > and if I had a box that was in > >>>trouble I would not want to try to rescue the box > >> > >>with > >> > >>>Debian (Knoppix). > > The last time I tried Coyote Linux, it was great as > a firewall. > Much has been written about Knoppix to the rescue. > I haven't used it for rescue and am curious as to > your reasons you would > not want to. I know that there are other rescue > tools. What would you > recommend? Thanks. Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Knoppix is a GREAT rescue CD, but Debian is rotten in that role... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:29:10 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:29:10 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question In-Reply-To: <200510201622.01965.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> <200510201622.01965.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <4357FE16.4070509@iprimus.ca> Hello Madison, The easiest way to do this is to go to easyurpmi.org and use the scripts there to update your install and update media. The instructions there are easy to follow and having updated your media, the urpmi install from the command line , or using MCC should be able to find the program that you were looking for Clive Marc Lijour wrote: >On Thursday 20 October 2005 15:30, Madison Kelly wrote: > > >>Hi all, >> >> I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p I >>hope this isn't an overly obvious question but I can't find the answer I >>need on the 'urpmi' man page or on Mandriva's website. >> >> Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what >>command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms >>this would be: >> >># apt-get install foo bar baz >> >> I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: >> >># urpmi --install nano >> >> > >urpmi nano > >you have urpmi, urpme (erase), urpmf (find), urpmi.update -a, urpmq, >urpmi.addmedia ... > >These are the ones you use more often. >Ah, you have also urpmi --auto-select (to update your system based on the new >sources you added; the equivalent of the update program in the MCC - Mandriva >Control Center - DrakConf). > >Try this also: http://addmedia.linuxfornewbies.org/ (to get your sources >right!) > > > > >> It tells me that it can't find 'nano'. When I run 'rpmdrake' and >>search for 'nano' though it finds it just fine. The trick is that I >>really want to figure out a command-line app that will handle the install. >> >> Thanks all! >> >>Madison >> >> >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- Clive DaSilva CMA Tel: (416)-421-2480 Cell: (416)-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:29:47 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:29:47 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020175214.86403.qmail-XddnEKhDJlqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020170422.GH5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051020175214.86403.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051020202947.GK5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:52:14PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > While an argument can be made for keeping things > consistant, I prefer a varied enviroment for several > reasons. In the case of Coyote, it will run happily > off a single floppy, dispensing with the bother (and > potential for failure) of a hard drive. Well if ti does what you want it to do and never needs to be touched, then it works great. I tend to expect more from my firewall router, such as sometimes a web server or such, so I run a full PC for the job. > In my office enviroment I am currently dealing with a > mix of Windows (ugh!), FreeBSD boxes and an old RedHat > box. I don't know what I will run into at the next > workplace (some place I hope to move to soon, if > anyone is looking for a system admin. (or knows of > someone looking) e-mail me)), but I do know that for > learning purposes I DON'T want everything the same at > home. I have run many distributions over the years. I have learned something from all of them. Sometimes only how things ought not be done, but usually also something useful. It is much easier to admin 50 boxes if they all run debian than if I had to deal with a mix of machines. Makes fixing security problems if any are found much simpler because you only have to do one thing to all the machines rather than a different thing to each box. > I was NOT thrilled with the way Red Hat transitioned > to Fedora Core (not that I can totaly blame Red Hat, I > gather they were loosing money on the likes of RedHat > 9, and hey they have to make enough to eat...). I used > to be a BIG Red Hat fan, but that mishandled > transition got me to move my main Linux box to Debian. > Still, as a training tool I keep my 2nd oldest Linux > PC running FC4 (the oldest PC runs Coyote :-) )... Well for the business model redhat has chosen to go with, a freely distributed linux is not the way to go, so yeah they got rid of it. Back when internet links were slow I used to buy their cd set from the local book store in waterloo about every 6 months for $25 or $30 or so, and thought it was great. > I am sure Debian can/does do a very satisfactory job > as a router, but in my books Coyote is a > cheaper/better solution. Sure, it saves having a harddisk and such. Once you have to deal with T1/E1 drivers, ADSL drivers, etc, things grow past the ability of a floppy rather soon. Add a web interface and you can really forget it. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:31:54 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:31:54 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <1129832435.31687.40.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 02:20:35PM -0400, interlug-list wrote: > If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps they'll provide a > second room for an installfest? Might the trade show be a good > environment for that? People dragging their machines to a trade show might just cause security an awful lot of annoying asking questions of people. I suspect they prefer people not coming and going with expensive looking computers. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:35:46 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:35:46 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020202849.14506.qmail-nQt9QCl3sx2B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020202849.14506.qmail@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4357FFA2.7050600@pppoe.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Knoppix is a GREAT > rescue CD, but Debian is rotten in that role... Thanks for the instant reply, Colin. I'm still learning Debian :-) Meng Cheah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:52:48 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020202947.GK5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020202947.GK5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051020205248.36975.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:52:14PM -0400, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > While an argument can be made for keeping things > > consistant, I prefer a varied enviroment for > several > > reasons. In the case of Coyote, it will run > happily > > off a single floppy, dispensing with the bother > (and > > potential for failure) of a hard drive. > > Well if ti does what you want it to do and never > needs to be touched, > then it works great. I tend to expect more from my > firewall router, > such as sometimes a web server or such, so I run a > full PC for the job. Fair enough, I have a FreeBSD box at the office that is filling that sort of multi-role, router, firewall, webserver and a few other things. There is a time and place for that sort of thing. On the other hand for a small home network Coyote suits me fine. > > In my office enviroment I am currently dealing > with a > > mix of Windows (ugh!), FreeBSD boxes and an old > RedHat > > box. I don't know what I will run into at the next > > workplace (some place I hope to move to soon, if > > anyone is looking for a system admin. (or knows of > > someone looking) e-mail me)), but I do know that > for > > learning purposes I DON'T want everything the same > at > > home. > > I have run many distributions over the years. I > have learned something > from all of them. Sometimes only how things ought > not be done, but > usually also something useful. It is much easier to > admin 50 boxes if > they all run debian than if I had to deal with a mix > of machines. Makes > fixing security problems if any are found much > simpler because you only > have to do one thing to all the machines rather than > a different thing > to each box. > > > I was NOT thrilled with the way Red Hat > transitioned > > to Fedora Core (not that I can totaly blame Red > Hat, I > > gather they were loosing money on the likes of > RedHat > > 9, and hey they have to make enough to eat...). I > used > > to be a BIG Red Hat fan, but that mishandled > > transition got me to move my main Linux box to > Debian. > > Still, as a training tool I keep my 2nd oldest > Linux > > PC running FC4 (the oldest PC runs Coyote :-) )... > > Well for the business model redhat has chosen to go > with, a freely > distributed linux is not the way to go, so yeah they > got rid of it. > Back when internet links were slow I used to buy > their cd set from the > local book store in waterloo about every 6 months > for $25 or $30 or so, > and thought it was great. > > > I am sure Debian can/does do a very satisfactory > job > > as a router, but in my books Coyote is a > > cheaper/better solution. > > Sure, it saves having a harddisk and such. Once you > have to deal with > T1/E1 drivers, ADSL drivers, etc, things grow past > the ability of a > floppy rather soon. Add a web interface and you can > really forget it. Well, Coyote has some ADSL support and it does have a web interface (yes, I am serious). Key trick used by Coyote and several of the other floppy based firewall packages is that most of the material on the floppy is stored in a compressed format then uncompressed into a RAM disk. It means that you can get a LOT more than 1.44 MB of software on to a single floppy. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:58:36 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:58:36 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question In-Reply-To: <4357F038.7050406-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <435804FC.7090207@telly.org> Madison Kelly wrote: > I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p No different from what I went through when learning Debian. Just a slight culture shocklet. > Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what > command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms > this would be: > > # apt-get install foo bar baz > > I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: > > # urpmi --install nano > > It tells me that it can't find 'nano'. When I run 'rpmdrake' and > search for 'nano' though it finds it just fine. The trick is that I > really want to figure out a command-line app that will handle the > install. Usually `urpmi nano`, without options, is enough to install nano and any necessary pre-reqs. The system will first check whether nano is installed, and if not it will look for its RPM on your available "media" (collections of available packages, whether online or on CD/DVD). You can see a list of where urpmi is looking with `urpmq --list-media`. (`urpmq` is your all-purpose tool for querying the urpmi database.) You can also examine /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg Mandriva does not come pre-installed knowing about any online package locations (though starting with version 2006, the GUI urpmi tool knows how to query for 'official' online locations for updates and packages not on the CD/DVD media). To teach urpmi where to find online repositories of packages that aren't on the distribution media, go to http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Downloads/MirrorFinder which will give you the right urpmi setups depending on what collections, and what locations, you want to add. (Note: what it lists as "PLF" collections includes packages which Mandrake themselves won't include for legal reasons such as libcss and video codecs.) There is also the site http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/ (_not_ 'easyurpmi.org') but I like the page at Mandrivaclub better (you don't need to belong to the club to use it). The urpmi file listings themselves are located in /var/lib/urpmi though AFAIK they're not meant for manual editing. HTH. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 21:33:42 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:33:42 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? Message-ID: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? I mentioned recently that I was using FreeBasic for a pet project. That pet project was to try and salvage underexposed digital photos. Like most consumer cameras, my Panasonic FZ5 is a great daylight camera, but has major problems in low-light situations. ImageMagick is an Open Source set of commandline image manipulation utilities. One of the things it can do is convert an image to a text file with one line describing each pixel. A 5 megapixel image comes out to approx 150 megabytes but, hey, disc space is cheap. It can also convert the other way. What I did was to write and compile a FreeBasic program that reads the text file representing an image, does some number crunching, and outputs a modified text file representing an enhanced image. The modified text file is then converted to an image by ImageMagick. The process is clumsy, and should really be done using graphics libraries, but I'm not that good a programmer. I like structured programming, but my version of "OOPS programming" involves hitting the {DEL} key at the wrong time. Structured FORTRAN and BASIC are just right for my abilities. Anyhow, I like what I see from my program, and I'll probably post on ImageMagick (mailing list) and Gimp (usenet group) to see if anyone can implement the algorithms directly. I'd like to try other people's underexposed (or partially underexposed photos) and hear their reactions. Preferably via some form of file transfer, as my current inbox limit is 10 megs, and I subscribe to a few lists. I never thought I'd need it, but if someone has a GMail invite to spare, this would be the time. I find that bzip2 does much better compression than zip on TIF files. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 22:35:28 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:35:28 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051020213342.GA13168-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <43581BB0.4010804@sympatico.ca> Walter Dnes wrote: > Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is > properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? Are you sure it's not just a metering problem? Or that you may need to learn the joys of exposure lock? I often shoot with ultra-wide lenses (HFOV > 100 degrees), and those'll learn ya to meter correctly right quick. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 00:43:44 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051020213342.GA13168-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <50537.207.188.67.74.1129855424.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Back when photography was done with film, selectively correcting under/over exposure used to be done by 'dodging'. At the print stage, the negative is projected onto print paper using an enlarger. The photographer would put various objects in the beam of the projector to reduce the exposure in the area that had been over-exposed on the negative. Or you could block the areas that were exposed properly and run the exposure longer to give the under-exposed areas some extra light. If you were building a graphical user interface to this operation, you could have a paddle or wand that you would wave in the area that was over-exposed. I suspect there are lasso tools in gimp etc that do similar things. Peter > Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is > properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? I mentioned recently > that I was using FreeBasic for a pet project. That pet project was to > try and salvage underexposed digital photos. Like most consumer > cameras, my Panasonic FZ5 is a great daylight camera, but has major > problems in low-light situations. > > ImageMagick is an Open Source set of commandline image manipulation > utilities. One of the things it can do is convert an image to a text > file with one line describing each pixel. A 5 megapixel image comes out > to approx 150 megabytes but, hey, disc space is cheap. It can also > convert the other way. What I did was to write and compile a FreeBasic > program that reads the text file representing an image, does some number > crunching, and outputs a modified text file representing an enhanced > image. The modified text file is then converted to an image by > ImageMagick. > > The process is clumsy, and should really be done using graphics > libraries, but I'm not that good a programmer. I like structured > programming, but my version of "OOPS programming" involves hitting the > {DEL} key at the wrong time. Structured FORTRAN and BASIC are just > right for my abilities. > > Anyhow, I like what I see from my program, and I'll probably post on > ImageMagick (mailing list) and Gimp (usenet group) to see if anyone can > implement the algorithms directly. I'd like to try other people's > underexposed (or partially underexposed photos) and hear their reactions. > Preferably via some form of file transfer, as my current inbox limit is > 10 megs, and I subscribe to a few lists. I never thought I'd need it, > but if someone has a GMail invite to spare, this would be the time. I > find that bzip2 does much better compression than zip on TIF files. > > -- > Walter Dnes > An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will > eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, > and has a lower TCO, than linux. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3006 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 04:21:23 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:21:23 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <50537.207.188.67.74.1129855424.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <50537.207.188.67.74.1129855424.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051021042123.GA13486@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:43:44PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote > Back when photography was done with film, selectively correcting > under/over exposure used to be done by 'dodging'. [...deletia...] > I suspect there are lasso tools in gimp etc that do similar things. Correct. But... 1) It's painful tracing around a complex shape that you want to mask. 2) It works OK if you have consistently bright and consistently dark areas. Try doing it with a picture with gradients or multiple areas with multiple in-between levels of brightness. 3) Unless you're really good, the process leaves ugly artifacts that make the editing obvious. An automated tool that boosts brightness more for darker areas is the way to go. The whole point behind computers is to do the grunt work for us. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 04:23:25 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:23:25 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <43581BB0.4010804-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <43581BB0.4010804@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051021042325.GB13486@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 06:35:28PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote > Walter Dnes wrote: > > Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is > >properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? > > Are you sure it's not just a metering problem? Or that you may need > to learn the joys of exposure lock? I often shoot with ultra-wide > lenses (HFOV > 100 degrees), and those'll learn ya to meter correctly > right quick. Some stuff that I didn't mention, but should've... 1) The camera does have various auto modes. But in really low-light situations, even with the aperture cranked wide open, it still wants 1/8th second or longer exposure times. That doesn't produce good pictures with a handheld camera, and I can't lug around a tripod all the time. 2) Even if a longer exposure on a tripod is possible, it works only with "still life" photos, not with active people. 3) Real life doesn't always present you with studio lighting. In many cases, it's a matter of exposing for a point of interest, and forget about the rest of the image. Either zoom in now or crop after the fact. In cases 1) and 2) above, my only real choice is either shutter priority or manual mode, and force an exposure short enough that the picture isn't blurred. I can brighten up an under-exposed image. I can't un-blur a badly blurred image. In case 3) enhancement after-the-fact is also necessary. Given a consumer camera (Panasonic FZ5) there are situations where I have no business expecting a good picture. All I can realistically hope for is to push the limits a bit further, and improve marginal photos. -- Walter Dnes An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, and has a lower TCO, than linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 04:23:48 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:23:48 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051020213342.GA13168-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051021042348.GC13486@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:33:42PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote > but if someone has a GMail invite to spare, this would be the time. Thanks to those who responded. I did first-come, first-served. I now have a new account at gmail.com with userid walterdnes for those who have underexposed photos. Nothing illegal or sexually oriented, please. bzip2 seems to have the best compression, unless you're using a pre-compressed format like JPEG. One booby-trap with bzip2. The default is to delete... - the uncompressed file after successfully compressing it - the compressed file after successfully uncompressing it Remember to use the "-k" or "--keep" option to prevent deletion. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 04:37:53 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:37:53 -0300 (ADT) Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051020213342.GA13168-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: My friend, Billy, did some experiments with different algorithms. He used some of my photos to illustrate the results. All are posted on his site at: http://scanline.ca/nlm/ http://scanline.ca/nlm/examples.html Enjoy, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is > properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? I mentioned recently > that I was using FreeBasic for a pet project. That pet project was to > try and salvage underexposed digital photos. Like most consumer > cameras, my Panasonic FZ5 is a great daylight camera, but has major > problems in low-light situations. > > ImageMagick is an Open Source set of commandline image manipulation > utilities. One of the things it can do is convert an image to a text > file with one line describing each pixel. A 5 megapixel image comes out > to approx 150 megabytes but, hey, disc space is cheap. It can also > convert the other way. What I did was to write and compile a FreeBasic > program that reads the text file representing an image, does some number > crunching, and outputs a modified text file representing an enhanced > image. The modified text file is then converted to an image by > ImageMagick. > > The process is clumsy, and should really be done using graphics > libraries, but I'm not that good a programmer. I like structured > programming, but my version of "OOPS programming" involves hitting the > {DEL} key at the wrong time. Structured FORTRAN and BASIC are just > right for my abilities. > > Anyhow, I like what I see from my program, and I'll probably post on > ImageMagick (mailing list) and Gimp (usenet group) to see if anyone can > implement the algorithms directly. I'd like to try other people's > underexposed (or partially underexposed photos) and hear their reactions. > Preferably via some form of file transfer, as my current inbox limit is > 10 megs, and I subscribe to a few lists. I never thought I'd need it, > but if someone has a GMail invite to spare, this would be the time. I > find that bzip2 does much better compression than zip on TIF files. > > -- > Walter Dnes > An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on keyboards will > eventually produce a report showing that Windows is more secure, > and has a lower TCO, than linux. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 05:07:01 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:07:01 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Herb Richter wrote > Annnd, this could be a good chance to put a positive spin on what may > be a big negative in the public's eye - the confusing number of Linux > choices. We could show choice, control, selection, specialization, > customization and flexibility to be what serious users want and what > makes systems more secure - what we have - along with, nowadays, > simple and easy right out of the box. http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-05-24-005-04-PS&tbovrmode=3 "Questioner: What are you planning to do about all the different kinds of Linux around? It's so confusing out there!" "Linus: People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much easier when you have only one party." (Hi Evan) We should tout choices as an *ADVANTAGE* of linux. - 1 size does not fit all. Imagine if you could buy only 1 model of car. - floppy-based firewall/router distros - small distros that boot and run off a 512-megabyte USB key - single-purpose servers (yeah, including *BSD) - desktop-oriented distros like Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Linspire, etc. - tuned/optimized distros like Gentoo. This is linux's answer to those RISC salesdroids who brag about how their *OPTIMISED* OS+apps run so much faster on their RISC chips than a 386 binary-RPM runs on a 686. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 05:28:34 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:28:34 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021050701.GD13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510202228k16f6dd25x414607904cf716ec@mail.gmail.com> On 10/21/05, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Herb Richter wrote > > > Annnd, this could be a good chance to put a positive spin on what may > > be a big negative in the public's eye - the confusing number of Linux > > choices. We could show choice, control, selection, specialization, > > customization and flexibility to be what serious users want and what > > makes systems more secure - what we have - along with, nowadays, > > simple and easy right out of the box. > > http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-05-24-005-04-PS&tbovrmode=3 > "Questioner: What are you planning to do about all the different kinds > of Linux around? It's so confusing out there!" > > "Linus: People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's > so much easier when you have only one party." > > (Hi Evan) > > We should tout choices as an *ADVANTAGE* of linux. > > - 1 size does not fit all. Imagine if you could buy only 1 model of car. > - floppy-based firewall/router distros > - small distros that boot and run off a 512-megabyte USB key > - single-purpose servers (yeah, including *BSD) > - desktop-oriented distros like Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Linspire, etc. > - tuned/optimized distros like Gentoo. This is linux's answer to > those RISC salesdroids who brag about how their *OPTIMISED* OS+apps > run so much faster on their RISC chips than a 386 binary-RPM runs on > a 686. salesdroids? oh goodie. :-) targetting systems ..................... [OK] lol. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 05:46:20 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:46:20 -0400 Subject: [OT] What?!? Gates, vulnerable? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510202246ja4b57ebs3a66e09035fbf8c9@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, couldn't resist. Oh, and by the way... when did the office suite become soooo much more important than an operating system? Like 5 times as much. 1 or 2 I can see, but 5? "They can't afford to hand over $80 for an operating system and then pay $400 for Office. The economics just don't work out," Kotha said. "So open source is a big challenge for Microsoft -- and they know it." http://www.canada.com/technology/story.html?id=fbdc3afa-f551-406f-9925-378620a2725b -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 08:08:11 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:08:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020203154.GL5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 02:20:35PM -0400, interlug-list wrote: >> If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps they'll provide a >> second room for an installfest? Might the trade show be a good >> environment for that? > > People dragging their machines to a trade show might just cause security > an awful lot of annoying asking questions of people. > > I suspect they prefer people not coming and going with expensive looking > computers. Pardon my expletives, but what sort of m***n organizers would expect a hi-tech event to be attended by people carrying paper notebooks and wooden abacuses in 2005 ?! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 08:12:33 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:12:33 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <43581BB0.4010804-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <43581BB0.4010804@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > Walter Dnes wrote: >> Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is >> properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? > > Are you sure it's not just a metering problem? Or that you may need to learn > the joys of exposure lock? I often shoot with ultra-wide lenses (HFOV > 100 > degrees), and those'll learn ya to meter correctly right quick. You can use spot (point) mode exposure in a pinch. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 08:24:43 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:24:43 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051021042123.GA13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <50537.207.188.67.74.1129855424.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051021042123.GA13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > 1) It's painful tracing around a complex shape that you want to mask. > > 2) It works OK if you have consistently bright and consistently dark > areas. Try doing it with a picture with gradients or multiple > areas with multiple in-between levels of brightness. > > 3) Unless you're really good, the process leaves ugly artifacts that > make the editing obvious. Imho you have to differentiate between various types of overexposure / underexposure. An unaided program cannot succeed here. The most often encountered cases are the 'janus face effect' (portrait sidelit), then flashlit object against dark background, and the others can usually be defined as variations on this theme. Ime, sometimes the 'recovery' consists in blotting out completely the underexposed area, leaving a slighltly corrected picture of the main subject floating on black (can be colored or 'bluescreened' to great effect). In the case of the janus face effect complete recovery is not possible. FYI most better editing programs (including gimp) allow an alpha gradient image to be convolved with the defective image. By picking the gradient direction(s) right one can obtain some equalization of uneven lighting. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 08:44:11 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:44:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051021042325.GB13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <43581BB0.4010804@sympatico.ca> <20051021042325.GB13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 06:35:28PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote >> Walter Dnes wrote: >>> Or even more of a nightmare, digital photos where one section is >>> properly exposed, and the rest is underexposed? >> >> Are you sure it's not just a metering problem? Or that you may need >> to learn the joys of exposure lock? I often shoot with ultra-wide >> lenses (HFOV > 100 degrees), and those'll learn ya to meter correctly >> right quick. > > Some stuff that I didn't mention, but should've... > > 1) The camera does have various auto modes. But in really low-light > situations, even with the aperture cranked wide open, it still wants > 1/8th second or longer exposure times. That doesn't produce good > pictures with a handheld camera, and I can't lug around a tripod all the > time. Imho, obtain an extensible monopod. You can carry it in your pocket. Get the kind with a ball joint on top. Then you can rest it against a wall f.ex., and not necessarily the floor. It is not snake oil but it will help. Most un-composed 'instant' photography shot without preparation comes out best when shot with small aperture relatively cheap cameras which do not try to slow down exposure too much (they can't), and do not try to open the lens too much (what lens?), plus they do not have gain circuits for the ccd. This results in a slightly underexposed picture with almost no noise and almost always sharp focus (on account of the depth of field of the small aperture lens). Such a picture can often be recovered electronically without too much magic (within reason). Duplicating such performance with a digital SLR capable of f/1.8 and less and 1 minute exposures requires a crack button handler imho. If you can bracket both shutter and aperture at the same time then that would be your best chance for such occasions imho. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 13:58:41 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:58:41 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4358F411.2050605@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 02:20:35PM -0400, interlug-list wrote: >>> If they'll provide one room for a meeting, perhaps they'll provide a >>> second room for an installfest? Might the trade show be a good >>> environment for that? >> >> People dragging their machines to a trade show might just cause security >> an awful lot of annoying asking questions of people. >> >> I suspect they prefer people not coming and going with expensive looking >> computers. > > Pardon my expletives, but what sort of m***n organizers would expect a > hi-tech event to be attended by people carrying paper notebooks and > wooden abacuses in 2005 ?! I'm sure some managers will be attending too. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:25:10 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:25:10 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: <20051021042123.GA13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> <50537.207.188.67.74.1129855424.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051021042123.GA13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <200510211025.10407.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On October 21, 2005 12:21 am, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:43:44PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote > > > Back when photography was done with film, selectively correcting > > under/over exposure used to be done by 'dodging'. > > [...deletia...] > > > I suspect there are lasso tools in gimp etc that do similar things. > > Correct. But... > > 1) It's painful tracing around a complex shape that you want to mask. > > 2) It works OK if you have consistently bright and consistently dark > areas. Try doing it with a picture with gradients or multiple > areas with multiple in-between levels of brightness. > > 3) Unless you're really good, the process leaves ugly artifacts that > make the editing obvious. > > An automated tool that boosts brightness more for darker areas is the > way to go. The whole point behind computers is to do the grunt work for > us. The newer versions of GIMP v2.3+ include the SIOX algorithm for automatically selecting forground images for masking. http://www.siox.org/ They have a video available here http://www.siox.org/video_seg.html -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:36:27 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:36:27 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020205248.36975.qmail-57gzaD/7YRGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051020202947.GK5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051020205248.36975.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051021143627.GM5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 04:52:48PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, Coyote has some ADSL support and it does have a > web interface (yes, I am serious). Key trick used by > Coyote and several of the other floppy based firewall > packages is that most of the material on the floppy is > stored in a compressed format then uncompressed into a > RAM disk. It means that you can get a LOT more than > 1.44 MB of software on to a single floppy. Well PPPoE support sure. I meant drivers for a PCI adsl card and such. But this would be dealing with a more complex router and not just a nice router that does a much better job than a linksys/dlink/whatever but not too much more. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:39:48 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:39:48 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021143846.GN5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <20051021143846.GN5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051021143948.GO5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 10:38:46AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I run Debian on a 26M compact flash card. Does that make debian count > as a small distribution? :) s/26M/256M/ Stupid keyboard and/or user. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:38:46 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:38:46 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021050701.GD13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051021143846.GN5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 01:07:01AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-05-24-005-04-PS&tbovrmode=3 > "Questioner: What are you planning to do about all the different kinds > of Linux around? It's so confusing out there!" > > "Linus: People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's > so much easier when you have only one party." > > (Hi Evan) > > We should tout choices as an *ADVANTAGE* of linux. > > - 1 size does not fit all. Imagine if you could buy only 1 model of car. > - floppy-based firewall/router distros > - small distros that boot and run off a 512-megabyte USB key I run Debian on a 26M compact flash card. Does that make debian count as a small distribution? :) > - single-purpose servers (yeah, including *BSD) > - desktop-oriented distros like Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Linspire, etc. > - tuned/optimized distros like Gentoo. This is linux's answer to > those RISC salesdroids who brag about how their *OPTIMISED* OS+apps > run so much faster on their RISC chips than a 386 binary-RPM runs on > a 686. Many distributions optimize for at least 486, sometimes pentium, although I don't believe for most things it makes any difference. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:43:21 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051021144321.GA23173@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 10:08:11AM +0200, Peter wrote: > Pardon my expletives, but what sort of m***n organizers would expect a > hi-tech event to be attended by people carrying paper notebooks and > wooden abacuses in 2005 ?! Hmm, I don't know. I really don't know why anyone would bring a computer to a show at all. What would be the point? Then again I don't have a laptop myself, and really can't imagine why I would want one. Maybe I am missing something. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:57:31 2005 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:57:31 -0400 Subject: Visual J# Developer Wanted Message-ID: <4386c5b20510210757r41cdc4b5t86a214eb97f5373@mail.gmail.com> Good day, I am part-owner of an eMarketing company. We have a client for whom we're developing a Web site in three phases. We've been trying to convince them otherwise, but because of political reasons, they are requiring that we develop their site in Visual J#.NET 2003 (I won't get into the reasons here, fascinating as they are). We are a PHP type of company, so sourcing this talent has proven difficult; the developer I thought I'd found dropped out of the project this morning! I'm wondering if anyone on this list either has this skill and is willing to sell it, or knows someone with same. The project I need completed isn't terribly big or complex, and it needs to be done in first draft form two weeks today. So if anyone is intersted, please contact me ASAP off-list. Thanks, Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:08:09 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021143846.GN5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051021143846.GN5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051021150809.54331.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > We should tout choices as an *ADVANTAGE* of > linux. > > > > - 1 size does not fit all. Imagine if you could > buy only 1 model of car. > > - floppy-based firewall/router distros > > - small distros that boot and run off a > 512-megabyte USB key > > I run Debian on a 26M compact flash card. Does that > make debian count > as a small distribution? :) Compared to Coyote Linux which runs off one 1.44 MB floppy diskette, a twenty-six MB distribution is HUGE :-) . Ok, so Coyote is NOT a general purpose solution and can not be sold as such. Coyote is an excellent firewall and not much else. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 16:04:07 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:04:07 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021144321.GA23173-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021144321.GA23173@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <43591177.6010903@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 10:08:11AM +0200, Peter wrote: >> Pardon my expletives, but what sort of m***n organizers would expect a >> hi-tech event to be attended by people carrying paper notebooks and >> wooden abacuses in 2005 ?! > > Hmm, I don't know. I really don't know why anyone would bring a > computer to a show at all. What would be the point? > > Then again I don't have a laptop myself, and really can't imagine why I > would want one. Maybe I am missing something. Such as going down to the local Starbucks and reading your e-mail. ;-) Actually, I used to wonder if I'd have much use for one, until I got one at work and found it useful to have a computer away from home & office. I then bought my own, about 3 years ago. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 18:18:55 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:18:55 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051021050701.GD13486-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > - small distros that boot and run off a 512-megabyte USB key That isn't small. Get Damn Small Linux (~50Meg file) and you only need a 64Meg USB key. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 18:45:57 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:45:57 -0400 Subject: [good] Re:Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <4359310F.6050803-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> Message-ID: <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> with 8 GB usb keys being 100$ in china now, and 1GB flash cards for 33$ on ebay (new), in a year REALLY SMALL linux distros will be one that occupy a Gig. I produce linux vpn/firewalls on 100$ 1GB CF cards and a 30$ CF to IDE converter. I use a normal (non-GUI) SUSE9.X install for that. The only future i can see in small linux distros is watches, i have a 66Mhz dragon ball abacus watch that runs palmOS (full 160x160 gui desktop), id love to run Linux on it, but i dont think their is a linux that will fit into 6MB (with a GUI and graphic lib support)? but most embeds (other then a watch) will be a min. of 512MB (as that will be a cost of 20$) within the year. So if watches drive the "small linux" distros, thats great, but other then that I can't imagine people continuing to invest to much time in small linux distros - given small really is 512MB now or soon. -tl On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:18:55 -0400 Kevin Cozens wrote: > Walter Dnes wrote: > > - small distros that boot and run off a 512-megabyte USB key > > That isn't small. Get Damn Small Linux (~50Meg file) and you only need a 64Meg > USB key. > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > | Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 18:47:43 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:47:43 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 02:45:57PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > with 8 GB usb keys being 100$ in china now, > and 1GB flash cards for 33$ on ebay (new), > in a year REALLY SMALL linux distros will be one that occupy a Gig. > I produce linux vpn/firewalls on 100$ 1GB CF cards and a 30$ CF to IDE converter. Hi Ted, What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight USB keys? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 18:52:33 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:52:33 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021184743.GA2798-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051021185233.GA24132@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 02:47:43PM -0400, William Park wrote: > What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight USB > keys? Probably that USB booting is rediculously non standardized, while CF supports IDE which everything can boot from. It is a lot nicer to use than USB. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:03:38 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:03:38 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021184743.GA2798-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051021150338.2ac190ec.tleslie@tcn.net> the cf->ide mean you get a boot from all mobo's and i was doing this awhile ago, i still think only the latest greatest mobo's will usb boot? but mobo's do evolve quick. Just when i started this stuff, a mobo with ucb key boot bios was rare. And to make a rock solid firewall/VPN device for my clients i use an old proven pure INTEL mobo/chip solution. And the intel mobo i use is probably 2-3 years old, however i supose they may have a bios for usb. Also in a data center it might look a wee bit weird having a usb key hanging out of a computer. With the CF/IDE device, it sits nice in the front of the rackmount, and is recessed and fits behind the lockable front grill that most rack mounts have. So it comes across as really pro looking. I.e. like the CF mounts that in the fron of a SONY PVR, or similar. -tl On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:47:43 -0400 William Park wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 02:45:57PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > with 8 GB usb keys being 100$ in china now, > > and 1GB flash cards for 33$ on ebay (new), > > in a year REALLY SMALL linux distros will be one that occupy a Gig. > > I produce linux vpn/firewalls on 100$ 1GB CF cards and a 30$ CF to IDE converter. > > Hi Ted, > > What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight USB > keys? > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:16:50 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:16:50 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021150338.2ac190ec.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051021150338.2ac190ec.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051021191650.GA2913@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 03:03:38PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > the cf->ide mean you get a boot from all mobo's > and i was doing this awhile ago, > i still think only the latest greatest mobo's will usb boot? > but mobo's do evolve quick. > Just when i started this stuff, a mobo with ucb key boot bios was rare. > And to make a rock solid firewall/VPN device for my clients i use an old proven > pure INTEL mobo/chip solution. And the intel mobo i use is probably 2-3 years old, > however i supose they may have a bios for usb. > Also in a data center it might look a wee bit weird having a usb key > hanging out of a computer. I solved that problem by putting USB key inside the box, connected to internal USB head (which normally connects to front USB ports). Sometimes, I use short USB extension cord from rear USB port back into the box. > With the CF/IDE device, it sits nice in the front of the rackmount, > and is recessed and fits behind the lockable front grill that most > > > with 8 GB usb keys being 100$ in china now, > > > and 1GB flash cards for 33$ on ebay (new), > > > in a year REALLY SMALL linux distros will be one that occupy a > > > Gig. I produce linux vpn/firewalls on 100$ 1GB CF cards and a 30$ > > > CF to IDE converter. > > What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight > > USB keys? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:13:40 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:13:40 -0400 Subject: What provides '/etc/mime.types'? Message-ID: <43593DE4.4050802@alteeve.com> Hi all, I've run into this file being missing on two different distros now and I can't see to find what package it comes from for the life of me. The web server (Boa) that I use for my program needs it. Searching for 'what provides...' on Debian, Arch Linux and Mandriva have turned up blanks. Thanks (again)! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:14:41 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:41 -0400 Subject: Mandrake question In-Reply-To: <200510201622.01965.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <4357F038.7050406@alteeve.com> <200510201622.01965.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <43593E21.50704@alteeve.com> Marc Lijour wrote: > On Thursday 20 October 2005 15:30, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >> I got a copy of Mandriva and it has quickly made me feel dense. :p I >>hope this isn't an overly obvious question but I can't find the answer I >>need on the 'urpmi' man page or on Mandriva's website. >> >> Basically, for my program's manual I am trying to figure out what >>command line call will install a set of applications. In Debian terms >>this would be: >> >># apt-get install foo bar baz >> >> I think I need to use 'urpmi' but when I, for example, issue: >> >># urpmi --install nano > > > urpmi nano Doh! I never thought to try it without any command line switch. I must have missed the obvious in the docs. At any rate, that worked great, thanks! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:42:59 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:42:59 -0400 Subject: [good] Re:Re: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021191650.GA2913-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051021150338.2ac190ec.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021191650.GA2913@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051021154259.40e42feb.tleslie@tcn.net> I do sell my customers on the fact that they can swap the CF themselves, to upgrade or to fix an issue. This of course is a feature they may never use, in which case having the usb key in the box is fine. Have you identified a rock solid mobo that boots from USB reliably that you would recommend. I usually use INTEL cause my clients like to hear that cause i am trying to sway a purchase away from a cisco (or similar) but i respect asus and to a ever slightly lesser extent gigabyte and tyan. This whole cheapening out on the capasitor scam that blowup (literal and figuratively) a while back really gets me paranoid, cause even thou i have done digital electronis in school, I was lulled into the claims of many years of life span for a mobo, and just assumed that the caps where reasonable quality. But when it came out that to lessen mobo costs the caps that go into some of these mobo (even to the likes of asus,etc) can be one-year to blow (if 24x7) and i have had a few mother board ultimate stop because of caps poping, i really only select mobo with brand name rock solid looking caps on them. So that got me spooked into going with paying 150$ more for a intel board that is probably lesser features then a asus, but i know the caps on the intel are good for atleast 10 years at 24x7 and some of my clients may verywell be running this stuff 10 years from now, as they would expect from a ciso as well. I also set up watercooling with front mount dash, and put in really low speed CPU's so that the box might even survive if the water pump seizes. Basically i just try to build a box that has an outside chance of 10 years uptime. I also use a watchdog pci card with termperature sensor so i can give the client not only the (remote) ability to read the temperatures of their boxes but also of the data centers temperature as well, which is really important because data centers have AC issues, and i know in a few cases have had temperatures hit over 90-degree , so clients like to be able to have stats to push back in the ISP face :) -tl On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:16:50 -0400 William Park wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 03:03:38PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > > > the cf->ide mean you get a boot from all mobo's > > and i was doing this awhile ago, > > i still think only the latest greatest mobo's will usb boot? > > but mobo's do evolve quick. > > Just when i started this stuff, a mobo with ucb key boot bios was rare. > > And to make a rock solid firewall/VPN device for my clients i use an old proven > > pure INTEL mobo/chip solution. And the intel mobo i use is probably 2-3 years old, > > however i supose they may have a bios for usb. > > Also in a data center it might look a wee bit weird having a usb key > > hanging out of a computer. > > I solved that problem by putting USB key inside the box, connected to > internal USB head (which normally connects to front USB ports). > Sometimes, I use short USB extension cord from rear USB port back into > the box. > > > With the CF/IDE device, it sits nice in the front of the rackmount, > > and is recessed and fits behind the lockable front grill that most > > > > > with 8 GB usb keys being 100$ in china now, > > > > and 1GB flash cards for 33$ on ebay (new), > > > > in a year REALLY SMALL linux distros will be one that occupy a > > > > Gig. I produce linux vpn/firewalls on 100$ 1GB CF cards and a 30$ > > > > CF to IDE converter. > > > > What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight > > > USB keys? > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 19:50:00 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:50:00 -0400 Subject: What provides '/etc/mime.types'? In-Reply-To: <43593DE4.4050802-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43593DE4.4050802@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200510211550.00248.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On October 21, 2005 03:13 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I've run into this file being missing on two different distros now > and I can't see to find what package it comes from for the life of me. > The web server (Boa) that I use for my program needs it. Searching for > 'what provides...' on Debian, Arch Linux and Mandriva have turned up > blanks. > > Thanks (again)! > > Madison try apt-get install mime-support That should do it for you. A list of files provided is here http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=mime-support&version=unstable&arch=all -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 20:00:18 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:00:18 -0400 Subject: What provides '/etc/mime.types'? In-Reply-To: <43593DE4.4050802-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43593DE4.4050802@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200510211600.19018.marc@lijour.net> On Friday 21 October 2005 15:13, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I've run into this file being missing on two different distros now > and I can't see to find what package it comes from for the life of me. > The web server (Boa) that I use for my program needs it. Searching for > 'what provides...' on Debian, Arch Linux and Mandriva have turned up > blanks. > > Thanks (again)! > > Madison Try urpmf of use the GUI DrakConf and do a search on rpmdrake or rpmdrake-remove (the applets to add and remove rpms). If you added the full sources (hdlist.cz instead of synthesis.hdlist.cz) then your Mandriva system can tell you which package they are in. All your sources are configured in /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg and you can get to them via the GUI in DrakConf. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 20:31:29 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021185233.GA24132-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051021185233.GA24132@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051021203129.GA3296@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 02:52:33PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 02:47:43PM -0400, William Park wrote: > > What's your rationale for going with CF card, as opposed to straight USB > > keys? > > Probably that USB booting is rediculously non standardized, Agreed. But, it's getting pretty good. I've been able to boot from most motherboards which claims USB boot features. SiS chipset is most troublesome. One thing that bit me, was some motherboard remembers which device you booted last time, and will boot from that device. You need to 'poweroff' or turn off-on the AC power. > while CF > supports IDE which everything can boot from. It is a lot nicer to use > than USB. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 20:44:29 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:44:29 -0400 Subject: [good] Re:Re: [TLUG] CF vs. USB (was: Linux World / Network World 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051021154259.40e42feb.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051019192852.GD5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051021050701.GD13486@waltdnes.org> <4359310F.6050803@interlog.com> <20051021144557.55a6307a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021184743.GA2798@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051021150338.2ac190ec.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051021191650.GA2913@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051021154259.40e42feb.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051021204429.GB3296@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 03:42:59PM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > > I do sell my customers on the fact that they can swap the CF themselves, > to upgrade or to fix an issue. > This of course is a feature they may never use, > in which case having the usb key in the box is fine. > Have you identified a rock solid mobo that boots from USB reliably > that you would recommend. I can boot from most motherboard nowdays, as long as BIOS has something like USB-* boot options. > I usually use INTEL cause my clients like to hear that cause i am trying to > sway a purchase away from a cisco (or similar) > but i respect asus and to a ever slightly lesser extent gigabyte and tyan. > > This whole cheapening out on the capasitor scam that blowup (literal > and figuratively) a while back really gets me paranoid, > ... > ... It's very difficult to get that kind of reliability from commodity hardwares. They cut corners in parts, not just on capacitors, but also on diodes, registers, IC, etc. Also, they cut corners on design, like temperature tolerance, cross-talks, grounding, etc. Even if it's the same model, parts change from month to month, version to version. Instead of trying to get 10 years lifespan from 1 device, how about selling them 2 identical devices (ie. 1 spare)? :-) Essentially, solving quality problem using commodity approach. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 03:02:34 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:34 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations Message-ID: The graphic engines on the PS3 and Xbox 360 is simply state of the art. The RSX on the PS3 is like, wow. The RSX graphic performance is greater than two NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultras. A single GeForce 6800 Ultra alone, is a truly state of the art card for the PC. Having better than 2 of these cards?that?s some true serious graphics power. So I was thinking, of using PS3?s as Linux graphic workstations. Is any work being done on this when the PS3 is available? I figure for the price, and you avoid any major bottlenecks, you?d end up with a Near-supercomputer level graphic workstation for less than an average PC. Sign my Guestbook! Don?t be shy ? http://vger1.dyndns.org/guest/guestbook.php Make some recommendations to the PHPBB forums. http://vger1.dyndns.org/phpBB2/ More pictures of our fair city. http://vger1.dyndns.org/gallery2/main.php Tunes http://vger1.dyndns.org:81/songs/ /teddy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 04:28:57 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:28:57 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/21/05, lfeder wrote: > So I was thinking, of using PS3's as Linux graphic workstations. > Is any work being done on this when the PS3 is available? Latest reports indicate that the PS3's hard drive attachment (sold separately) will ship with a bootable GNU/Linux installation. So you can presumably use this hard drive along with a USB/Bluetooth keyboard and mouse and have yourself a nice workstation. Keep in mind that developing for Cell is not exactly child's play. You probably could just recompile something like Blender but there's no guarentee that it would run any better than on a midrange PC. IBM is investing in Cell-based Linux servers, so maybe we'll see some neat adaptations of GCC. Also, Sony is changing the specs and features of the PS3 on a nearly weekly basis, frequently for the worst. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but I would recommend taking everything PS3-related with a grain of salt. As a gamer I'll be waiting for the Nintendo Revolution before investing in the next generation of consoles, but maybe the PS3 will become the must-have Free Software workstation! -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 05:46:35 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (lfeder) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:46:35 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cell/?ca=dgr-lnxw09Sp ufsCell http://ps3.ign.com/articles/624/624046p1.html WICK. ED. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Mike Newman Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:29 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations On 10/21/05, lfeder wrote: > So I was thinking, of using PS3's as Linux graphic workstations. > Is any work being done on this when the PS3 is available? Latest reports indicate that the PS3's hard drive attachment (sold separately) will ship with a bootable GNU/Linux installation. So you can presumably use this hard drive along with a USB/Bluetooth keyboard and mouse and have yourself a nice workstation. Keep in mind that developing for Cell is not exactly child's play. You probably could just recompile something like Blender but there's no guarentee that it would run any better than on a midrange PC. IBM is investing in Cell-based Linux servers, so maybe we'll see some neat adaptations of GCC. Also, Sony is changing the specs and features of the PS3 on a nearly weekly basis, frequently for the worst. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but I would recommend taking everything PS3-related with a grain of salt. As a gamer I'll be waiting for the Nintendo Revolution before investing in the next generation of consoles, but maybe the PS3 will become the must-have Free Software workstation! -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 16:03:05 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:03:05 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051020203154.GL5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 04:31:54PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > People dragging their machines to a trade show might just cause security > an awful lot of annoying asking questions of people. > > I suspect they prefer people not coming and going with expensive looking > computers. In addition, anyone who is coming to a trade show is expecting to do a lot of walking around to booths and exhibits; they will not want to be carrying a computer around as they do. (Perhaps the check room will have to be warned that they will need to be able to check computers and egos as well as the usual coats.) Will there be computers for sale on the floor? That would tie in well with an installfest - especially if people could check in advance to ensure that the hardware was compatible. Otherwise, the installfest would likely see mostly laptops (which people can carry around with them as they browse the show). That is not a problem, just something to consider when planning the installfest. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 16:06:18 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:06:18 -0400 Subject: Please help with fonts in KDE with SUSE 10.0 Message-ID: <435A637A.9080304@pppoe.ca> I installed SUSE 10.0 and KDE. I would like to increase the default font size in the application toolbars, like Firefox. I tried increasing the size of TrurType fonts from 10 in the control centre but it's still not to my satisfaction. I tried "googling" and I came across this: "Head meet wall, repeat". This pretty much sums up my predicament. Can someone please point out to me some resources? Or put me out of my misery :-) KDE in SUSE is visually cool but I find it kind of slow compared to Debian with xfce (expected). Does almost everything run in GUI? I tried YAST at the commandline and it went into GUI. I haven't used Red Hat since even before Fedora. Do Red Hat and SUSE default primarily to GUI since targetting business/the enterprise? I do know commandline is available. Multimedia sucks, it's crippled (legal). I tried removing Kaffeine and installing xine and xine-ui. Result: dependency hell. Vlc does the same. YAST2 is no help unless you do it the hard way. With Slackware and Debian, swaret and apt-get (respectively) usually does it all. Am I missing something? Or the whole thing :-) Thanks in advance. I'll quit my whining. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 16:31:33 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:31:33 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051022160305.GA22323-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Oct 22, 2005 at 12:03:05PM -0400, John Macdonald wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 04:31:54PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > People dragging their machines to a trade show might just cause security > > an awful lot of annoying asking questions of people. > > > > I suspect they prefer people not coming and going with expensive looking > > computers. > > In addition, anyone who is coming to a trade show is expecting > to do a lot of walking around to booths and exhibits; they > will not want to be carrying a computer around as they do. > (Perhaps the check room will have to be warned that they will > need to be able to check computers and egos as well as the > usual coats.) > > Will there be computers for sale on the floor? That would tie > in well with an installfest - especially if people could check > in advance to ensure that the hardware was compatible. > > Otherwise, the installfest would likely see mostly laptops > (which people can carry around with them as they browse the > show). That is not a problem, just something to consider when > planning the installfest. I don't think people will be bringing in their laptop or tower. Rather, we should have machines there for them to play with. Since install takes 1 hour, most people won't stick around. They come, see, touch, chat, and leave. But, TLUG may not be there at all. Stay tuned. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 16:49:10 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:49:10 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051022163133.GA2308-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 10/22/05, William Park wrote: > I don't think people will be bringing in their laptop or tower. Rather, > we should have machines there for them to play with. Since install > takes 1 hour, most people won't stick around. They come, see, touch, > chat, and leave. I'd really hate the idea of carrying a laptop around, personally, unless, and this is a pretty big unless, I had a pretty sure expectation of decent wireless access. And I don't think that's too likely, in view of the show organizers charging booths for such things. And I don't imagine RWL being a particularly wonderful venue for interest in an InstallFest. We discovered that the August arrangement didn't attract much interest, which was a bit of a surprise; I think a retry should involve careful planning so as to maximize interest. > But, TLUG may not be there at all. Stay tuned. In a sense, TLUG wouldn't be, anyways, because it's GTALUG that they'd be talking to. But yeah, as the contractual obligations of putting in a booth have emerged, there seem to be things to have reservations about. Suffice it to say, at this point, that if something is offered "for free" by people who normally charge heavily for it, there's likely to be *some* price to be paid. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 17:27:29 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:27:29 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051022160305.GA22323-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <435A7681.6060001@rogers.com> John Macdonald wrote: > Will there be computers for sale on the floor? That would tie > in well with an installfest - especially if people could check > in advance to ensure that the hardware was compatible. Those shows tend not to have anything for sale, beyond food & drink. Even books tend to be sold off the show floor. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 18:51:29 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:51:29 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435A7681.6060001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <435A7681.6060001@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 10/22/05, James Knott wrote: > John Macdonald wrote: > > > Will there be computers for sale on the floor? That would tie > > in well with an installfest - especially if people could check > > in advance to ensure that the hardware was compatible. > > Those shows tend not to have anything for sale, beyond food & drink. > Even books tend to be sold off the show floor. It's expensive to bring in inventory, particularly if there's any need to restock. Furthermore, credit card validation will require phone lines, adding to the costs. And there's certainly not enough overhead on PCs these days to make it sensible to hold inventory on site. Furthermore, if someone *were* to buy product, they are then left with the challenge of carrying it around and then getting it shipped out of the conference centre. Traffic's already bad enough... I'd not be surprised if there were a problem with zoning and/or taxation in that the area would have to have appropriate retailing licenses. The vendors that come in aren't generally store front retailers, anyways. Whether it's IBM, HP, or APC, sales tend to involve meetings with sales reps. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 20:19:54 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:19:54 -0400 Subject: OT Anybody got underexposed digital photos? In-Reply-To: References: <20051020213342.GA13168@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051022201954.GA4251@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 01:37:53AM -0300, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote > My friend, Billy, did some experiments with different algorithms. He used > some of my photos to illustrate the results. All are posted on his site > at: > > http://scanline.ca/nlm/ > http://scanline.ca/nlm/examples.html See http://www.pbase.com/waltdnes/enhancements for examples of what my program can do. Notes at http://www.waltdnes.org/photostuff/pmod.txt and commented FreeBasic (don't laugh) program code at http://www.waltdnes.org/photostuff/pmod.bas -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 21:15:30 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:15:30 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051022163133.GA2308-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> William Park wrote: >But, TLUG may not be there at all. Stay tuned. > > Please elaborate. I think even considering having a show like LinuxWorld without LUG presence is preposterous. If there's still an interest in having a meeting and/or some of the presentations we've been talking about there, if {NewT,T,GTA,WestT}LUG won't be there CLUE can probably accommodate. We'll be there anyway, staffing a booth and delivering discounted LPI exams. (For those who don't recall, one of the reasons that CLUE first incorporated was to provide a corporate entity which could engage in contracts for booth space with tradeshow organizers, on behalf of unincorporated LUGs. This worked well for TLUG for many years.) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cpchan-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 22:04:55 2005 From: cpchan-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Charles philip Chan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:04:55 -0400 Subject: Please help with fonts in KDE with SUSE 10.0 In-Reply-To: <435A637A.9080304-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> (Meng Cheah's message of "Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:06:18 -0400") References: <435A637A.9080304@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <87oe5hyzqw.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> On 22 Oct 2005, meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org wrote: > I would like to increase the default font size in the application > toolbars, like Firefox. Firefox is not a KDE app- the gui is done with xul. Here is how to change the ui font size in Firefox: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/01/msg02996.html > Does almost everything run in GUI? I tried YAST at the commandline and > it went into GUI. YaST will only start in GUI mode if you have a X connection. You should either: (1) Start it in a root term (use su, not sux) while you are logged in to X under another user, (2) Use a virtual console. > Multimedia sucks, it's crippled (legal). I tried removing Kaffeine and > installing xine and xine-ui. Result: dependency hell. Vlc does the same. http://www.opensuse.org/Additional_YaST_Package_Repositories look for Packman. Charles -- "...[Linux's] capacity to talk via any medium except smoke signals." (By Dr. Greg Wettstein, Roger Maris Cancer Center) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 22:30:34 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:30:34 -0400 Subject: Please help with fonts in KDE with SUSE 10.0 In-Reply-To: <87oe5hyzqw.fsf-HasXQTlsvt1ah8WM/F5+tg@public.gmane.org> References: <435A637A.9080304@pppoe.ca> <87oe5hyzqw.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> Message-ID: <435ABD8A.8070103@pppoe.ca> Charles philip Chan wrote: > On 22 Oct 2005, meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >>I would like to increase the default font size in the application >>toolbars, like Firefox. > > > Firefox is not a KDE app- the gui is done with xul. Here is how to > change the ui font size in Firefox: > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/01/msg02996.html > > >>Does almost everything run in GUI? I tried YAST at the commandline and >>it went into GUI. > > > YaST will only start in GUI mode if you have a X connection. You should > either: (1) Start it in a root term (use su, not sux) while you are > logged in to X under another user, (2) Use a virtual console. > > >>Multimedia sucks, it's crippled (legal). I tried removing Kaffeine and >>installing xine and xine-ui. Result: dependency hell. Vlc does the same. > > > http://www.opensuse.org/Additional_YaST_Package_Repositories > > look for Packman. > > Charles > Thanks. I've been reading Optimal Use of Fonts on Linux http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Font-HOWTO/ Duh :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 04:01:27 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:01:27 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435AABF2.1070502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/22/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William Park wrote: > > >But, TLUG may not be there at all. Stay tuned. > > > > > Please elaborate. > > I think even considering having a show like LinuxWorld without LUG > presence is preposterous. Well, that side of things is TOTALLY up to Plum Communications Inc., the company that organizes the conference. What THEY want to consider is entirely their business. The omission of a LUG presence would diminish participation by one non-paying booth, which, in the business scheme of things, strikes me as not merely "not preposterous," but potentially not even of a high degree of relevance to them. What would be "preposterous" would be to not have presences of significant paying booths for IBM, Novell, HP, and such, as that would prevent profitability, and presumably throw Plum's people out of jobs... And after having been to RWL several times, it's a specialty event not at all precisely aligned with the interests of groups of LInux enthusiasts. I only caught about an hour of it last year, and the contacts relevant to me had NOTHING close to do with either of the things that are called "Linux." (One of those is an OS kernel which is the "strictest" form of what Linux is; the other would be the collections of software that include Linux that, unfortunately, are often not meaningfully distinguishable from mostly-similar such collections that use other OS kernels...) > If there's still an interest in having a > meeting and/or some of the presentations we've been talking about there, > if {NewT,T,GTA,WestT}LUG won't be there CLUE can probably accommodate. There's certainly INTEREST. There are also some RESERVATIONS concerning some of the details in the contract presented by Plum Communications, Inc. It should come as no shock that, in return for a free booth, they wish to impose some conditions on GTALUG. The details may be entirely resolvable; that remains to be seen. Right now, it stands much like Schrodinger's cat before the box is opened; it's neither live nor dead. > We'll be there anyway, staffing a booth and delivering discounted LPI exams. > > (For those who don't recall, one of the reasons that CLUE first > incorporated was to provide a corporate entity which could engage in > contracts for booth space with tradeshow organizers, on behalf of > unincorporated LUGs. This worked well for TLUG for many years.) And not every contract is one that people will necessarily want to agree to. It appears that there will be a meeting Monday to get more eyes on the matter; it seems preferable to reserve further judgement until after that. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 05:45:54 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 01:45:54 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> Message-ID: <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >>I think even considering having a show like LinuxWorld without LUG >>presence is preposterous. >> >> > >Well, that side of things is TOTALLY up to Plum Communications Inc., >the company that organizes the conference. What THEY want to consider >is entirely their business. > > I know Bruce and Jai enough to know that they are well aware of the value of community participation. I don't presume to know what's happened to cause William to suggest that there might be no TLUG participation, but I'm fairly certain that plumcom hasn't suddenly dismissed the benefit of having LUGs at their conference. Since they have no problem with CLUE or other orgs, it may be something specifically to do with [G]T[A]LUG. >The omission of a LUG presence would diminish participation by one >non-paying booth, which, in the business scheme of things, strikes me >as not merely "not preposterous," but potentially not even of a high >degree of relevance to them. > > Every LinuxWorld event worldwide, from Boston to Beijing, has a significant community presence -- not just for LUGs, but for software projects such as LTSP and other orgs such as KDE or FSF. This is a characteristic of the LW brand wherever it's used, not an option. The only thing close to an exception for this in the past year was LinuxWorld Moscow, which originally wanted to have a community-free show but later changed its mind for purely practical reasons. The lack of a community presence was keeping paying exhibitors away. Make no mistake; the community area of LW shows attract both exhibitors and attendees. It makes real economic sense. It's my understanding that there _will_ be such a ".org pavilion" at LW Canada -- I am just baffled at the prospect of it not having any local LUG presence. Or even worse, of having the only user group (in the absence of TLUG) be something like PCCT. >And after having been to RWL several times, it's a specialty event not >at all precisely aligned with the interests of groups of LInux >enthusiasts. > I respectfully disagree, strongly. The show is intended to grow the use of Linux, and the interest of user groups that I know (not just TLUG) is to grow the size of the community. Some portion of existing groups like to stay elitist and really don't care about growing, and others seem to think that Novell or IBM making a Linux sale to a previously Windows or SCO shop isn't a big deal because that's "just marketing". But I believe that the community includes everyone from the basement enthusiast to IBM, and a growth *anywhere* in the community offers both financial benefit and a furthering of general goals for open source to go from novelty to niche to mainstream. To be sure, there is little of value for you to learn, but there is much of value for you to teach. Being at Linuxworld means lots of giving and very little direct receiving, unless you're trying to hustle personal consulting work out of the TLUG booth. To this end, a business-oriented show may not have any direct attraction to someone deep into the nuts and bolts of Linux operation, but they are of substantial indirect interest. Any company making a purchase decision based on this business and marketing stuff will eventually need to hire Linux techs, get their people trained, contract support or programming, etc. Or they'll hire a subcontractor that will itself need to hire Linux techs, etc. So it's in the interest of the techs to assist the suits in the ugly marketing and sales job. One of the great inherent benefits of the world of open source is the community, the bazaar, the multitude of meritocracies. It would be helpful to The Cause to have at least a token local representation at a show like LinuxWorld. >There's certainly INTEREST. > >There are also some RESERVATIONS concerning some of the details in the >contract presented by Plum Communications, Inc. > > AFAIR, CLUE never had a problem complying with Plum requests. The contracts also never kept out other orgs such as PCCT or the FSF. Maybe the TLUG contract includes additional non-standard terms based on performance of previous booths. I will gladly offer any possible assistance as mediator between TLUG and Plum if that will help. Alternately, put the contentious contract details out on this list and see if the rest of us share your concerns. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 05:49:58 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://drpcdr.ca A Useful Website Check It Out Message-ID: <20051023054959.3373.qmail@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Y'all: Long time no see! I have a website with useful links and info. It is mostly concerned with Windows. However, there is a link to free shell access. And one or two links to open source freeware too! Chris http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 12:57:26 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:57:26 -0400 Subject: http://drpcdr.ca A Useful Website Check It Out In-Reply-To: <20051023054959.3373.qmail-Bp97PIrFWf6vuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051023054959.3373.qmail@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435B88B6.4030802@rogers.com> Christopher Charles wrote: > Hi Y'all: No spam please. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 19:49:19 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE Message-ID: I think this is good news. For a few years now I've been watching the web browser usage in the web site statistics for my site. Over the past year or so I'm seeing the steady growth of Netscape and compatibles use over MSIE About a year ago visitors used MSIE about 9:1 over Netscape etc. For a few months it has been about 3:1 ...this last week, about 1:1 ! Based on pages served, last week: (most of the rest were bots) MSIE: 46.8% Netscape (compatible) 34.97% Mozilla 5.62% Netscape 1.41% ------ 42.0% For some time now I've said that MS's biggest strength (after money and power) is it's critical mass. In web page design when 90% of visitors are using one browser, web authors will design first for that browser (and maybe not at all for others!) which will keep visitors using that browser. But now designers *better* make sure their pages render well in more than one browser allowing us to chose other browsers without being excluded from many sites. Losing the critical mass means that their (MS's) lock-in is broken. Even if they now start to make IE work as well as say Firefox - its too late - people don't *have to* use IE any more. Sooooo, how does this translate to OS and office-app critical mass? ...I bet that this is *huge* for MS. I bet that they don't really pursue people that use un-licensed copies of Windows and Office because they need to, at all cost, keep usage at about 90% of all desktops. My guess would be that critical mass for Windows would be about 60% - for Office 80+% ...below CM; people won't need to use Windows / Office just because "all their friends and business contacts do". Lets hope that OpenOffice+SO+Sun+Google will do to Office what Firefox+Opera++ is doing to IE. SUNW is starting to look really good - I think I'll buy some this week. -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 20:04:37 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:04:37 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435BECD5.1010903@sympatico.ca> Herb Richter wrote: > > About a year ago visitors used MSIE about 9:1 over Netscape etc. For a > few months it has been about 3:1 ...this last week, about 1:1 ! Last week on scruss.com : * Mozilla 46% * MSIE 28% based on about 5000 unique visits. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 20:27:19 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:27:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051023162719.74eb8d03.tleslie@tcn.net> i am surprized, hard to believe, but having said that, for years, browsers like opera, have had options to run in "identify mode" and i set it to IE because it is more compatiable with web pages i visited. I would suspect a 1-2% of MSIE are in fact opera, and others browsers masquerading. Of course your web site could be naturally biased more to opensource/linux visitors? do to its content? Opera claims 2-5 million users alone i think, so probably one percent of the MSIE in your list are opera (and odd ball). I can't help but think your site has a subject matter biasing the hits? "keep usage at about 90% of all desktops"? I think linux is pegged at 8-12% world wide (much less in just US) and apple is 2-3% (they think they are 4-5%) so MS is already below 85% anyways. I think the critical mass thump is closer to 75-80% mark, i.e. when developers have to take notice for the "other" systems. With cell phones going primarily linux, and Pansonic and others already linux on their PVR's, IBM,SONY and Toshiba linux'like on Cell for PS3 (and if that MIT 100$ portable makes it) ... Microshaft could be under the 75-80% mark within 2-3 years, oh that will be sweet. -tl On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Herb Richter wrote: > > I think this is good news. > > For a few years now I've been watching the web browser usage in the web > site statistics for my site. Over the past year or so I'm seeing the > steady growth of Netscape and compatibles use over MSIE > > About a year ago visitors used MSIE about 9:1 over Netscape etc. For a > few months it has been about 3:1 ...this last week, about 1:1 ! > > Based on pages served, last week: (most of the rest were bots) > > MSIE: 46.8% > > Netscape (compatible) 34.97% > Mozilla 5.62% > Netscape 1.41% > ------ 42.0% > > > For some time now I've said that MS's biggest strength (after money and > power) is it's critical mass. In web page design when 90% of visitors are > using one browser, web authors will design first for that browser (and > maybe not at all for others!) which will keep visitors using that browser. > > But now designers *better* make sure their pages render well in more than > one browser allowing us to chose other browsers without being excluded > from many sites. > > Losing the critical mass means that their (MS's) lock-in is broken. Even > if they now start to make IE work as well as say Firefox - its too late - > people don't *have to* use IE any more. > > > Sooooo, how does this translate to OS and office-app critical mass? > > ...I bet that this is *huge* for MS. I bet that they don't really pursue > people that use un-licensed copies of Windows and Office because they > need to, at all cost, keep usage at about 90% of all desktops. My guess > would be that critical mass for Windows would be about 60% - for Office > 80+% ...below CM; people won't need to use Windows / Office just because > "all their friends and business contacts do". > > Lets hope that OpenOffice+SO+Sun+Google will do to Office what > Firefox+Opera++ is doing to IE. > > SUNW is starting to look really good - I think I'll buy some this week. > > -- > > Herb Richter > Toronto, Ontario > http://PartsAndService.com > http://PartsAndService.ca > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 20:23:34 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oct 25th., NewTLUG meeting - 1) The new Mandriva 2) new project(s) for NewTLUG Message-ID: This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held Tues Oct 25th., at Seneca College. ...please note that the room is different than our usual room. more info below... ...drivers; please note the change of status of the one outdoor parking lot - see "Parking:" below Date: Tue, Oct 25th, Time: 7 - 10pm Presenters: 1) Evan Leibovitch Evan has been a passionate and effective advocate of all things Linux for many years including: speaking at conferences around the world, president of the Linux Professional Institute, writer for Linux Journal and other magazines and especially important for us, founder of NewTLUG. 2) various. Topics: 1) The new Mandriva. Mandriva is the company which develops Linux-Mandrake: the strong graphical Linux Operating System, famous for being easy to install and ready to use. http://frontal1.mandriva.com/en/community/users/about_mandriva_linux 2a) Discussion of a project that may be of interest to NewTLUG members: to compile a list or cross reference of utilities and features that differ between distributions i.e. what would "lokkit" in Redhat be in Debian, in SUSE, in Mandrake etc; or ntsysv, rpm, up2date, kudzu ... 2b) What would NewTLUG collectively like to see happen at LinuxWorld with user group activities. Among other things, we may have the opportunity to have our April '06 meeting at the conference on the Tuesday evening. Location: Room S1206 Stephen E. Quinlan building (SEQ) - Seneca at York Building number 40 on the map: http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/map/KeeleMasterMap.pdf The Seneca at York Campus, which is physically located in the south east part of York University, at Keele/Steeles. Directions: For detailed directions and info on public transit, please see: http://cs.senecac.on.ca/~scs/seneca-directions.html note: parking lot "HH" is no longer available to visitors Parking: Paid parking is available on campus (about: $8). Building #84 on the map above is a close-by parking garage. - note #87 the parking lot is no longer for visitors so PLEASE use the parking garage (#84) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Herb Richter Richter Equipment, Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca _______________________________________________ announce mailing list announce-Q3LYrvjeUVfMLq2q1+GOoQ at public.gmane.org http://www.newtlug.linux.ca/mailman/listinfo/announce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 21:11:34 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: <20051023162719.74eb8d03.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051023162719.74eb8d03.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, ted leslie wrote: > i am surprized, hard to believe, > but having said that, for years, browsers like opera, have had options to run in > "identify mode" and i set it to IE because it is more compatiable with web pages i visited. > I would suspect a 1-2% of MSIE are in fact opera, and others browsers masquerading. > Of course your web site could be naturally biased more to opensource/linux visitors? do to > its content? Opera claims 2-5 million users alone i think, so probably one percent of the MSIE > in your list are opera (and odd ball). I can't help but think your site has a subject matter > biasing the hits? Actually, if my site's subject matter has any bias it would be towards the very late adoptor (can't imagine more than a few early adoptors). After all, our usual visitor is someone looking for parts for a 10 or 20 year old lawn mower ...I get many emails and orders typed completely in caps! ;-) I can imagine that Stewart's observation that: "Last week on scruss.com : * Mozilla 46% * MSIE 28% based on about 5000 unique visits." might describe a site where the typical user is more adventurous or careful in his/her choices. -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 21:59:24 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:24 -0400 Subject: Oct 25th., NewTLUG meeting - 1) The new Mandriva 2) new project(s) for NewTLUG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510231759.25681.marc@lijour.net> On Sunday 23 October 2005 16:23, Herb Richter wrote: > This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held > Tues Oct 25th., at Seneca College. > > ...please note that the room is different than our usual room. > more info below... > ...drivers; please note the change of status of the one outdoor > parking lot - see "Parking:" below > > Date: Tue, Oct 25th, > Time: 7 - 10pm > > Presenters: 1) Evan Leibovitch > Evan has been a passionate and effective advocate of all > things Linux for many years including: speaking at > conferences around the world, president of the Linux > Professional Institute, writer for Linux Journal and > other magazines and especially important for us, founder > of NewTLUG. > > 2) various. > > Topics: 1) The new Mandriva. > Mandriva is the company which develops Linux-Mandrake: > the strong graphical Linux Operating System, famous for > being easy to install and ready to use. > http://frontal1.mandriva.com/en/community/users/about_mandriva_linux Mandriva is the new name for Mandrake (merged with Connectiva and Lycoris). The Mandrake name rights was claimed by the authors of a (famous) cartoon character. Thanks. > 2a) Discussion of a project that may be of interest to > NewTLUG members: to compile a list or cross reference of > utilities and features that differ between distributions > i.e. what would "lokkit" in Redhat be in Debian, in SUSE, > in Mandrake etc; or ntsysv, rpm, up2date, kudzu ... > > 2b) What would NewTLUG collectively like to see happen at > LinuxWorld with user group activities. Among other > things, we may have the opportunity to have our April '06 > meeting at the conference on the Tuesday evening. > > Location: Room S1206 Stephen E. Quinlan building (SEQ) - Seneca at York > Building number 40 on the map: > http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/map/KeeleMasterMap.pdf > The Seneca at York Campus, which is physically located in the > south east part of York University, at Keele/Steeles. > > Directions: For detailed directions and info on public transit, please > see: http://cs.senecac.on.ca/~scs/seneca-directions.html > note: parking lot "HH" is no longer available to visitors > > Parking: Paid parking is available on campus (about: $8). > Building #84 on the map above is a close-by parking > garage. - note #87 the parking lot is no longer for > visitors so PLEASE use the parking garage (#84) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Herb Richter > Richter Equipment, Toronto, Ontario > http://PartsAndService.com > http://PartsAndService.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > announce mailing list > announce-Q3LYrvjeUVfMLq2q1+GOoQ at public.gmane.org > http://www.newtlug.linux.ca/mailman/listinfo/announce > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 22:01:42 2005 From: kioskfan-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (B B) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051023220142.19178.qmail@web51013.mail.yahoo.com> > "Last week on scruss.com : > > * Mozilla 46% > * MSIE 28% > > based on about 5000 unique visits." I'm sorry to report I've seen no great change in IE useage. I had a quick look at my main domain and over the last year MSIE has held at about 83% with only about a 3% variation over the entire year, based on about 10,000 unique visits per month. We have an international audience and a high percentage of .edu and .mil visitors as well. I hate to say it but I attribute a good bit of the 3.5% for Linux and 3% for Macintosh to useage from our shop. I really should exclude traffic from our network in the stats and I would if there were any great change but... I'm watching but the graphs are all pretty flat. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 22:01:01 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:01:01 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435B2392.8070500-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 01:45:54AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: ... > To be sure, there is little of value for you to learn, but there is much > of value for you to teach. Being at Linuxworld means lots of giving and > very little direct receiving, unless you're trying to hustle personal > consulting work out of the TLUG booth. See below. > >There's certainly INTEREST. > > > >There are also some RESERVATIONS concerning some of the details in the > >contract presented by Plum Communications, Inc. > > > > > AFAIR, CLUE never had a problem complying with Plum requests. The > contracts also never kept out other orgs such as PCCT or the FSF. Maybe > the TLUG contract includes additional non-standard terms based on > performance of previous booths. > > I will gladly offer any possible assistance as mediator between TLUG > and Plum if that will help. Alternately, put the contentious contract > details out on this list and see if the rest of us share your > concerns. Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are 1. they want street address of TLUG members. 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum Com can take it or leave it. 2. This is my main problem. Few people (including me) are more than willing to pay for the booth. But, idea floated around that we should each chip in and merge into single booth. Everybody agreed that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under. So, I want to invite members from TLUG (Toronto), PLUG (Peterborough), KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo), etc. to showcase their projects at the tradeshow. They will be under GTALUG, but they will also represent their own LUG. It's win-win for all concerned, particularly for GTALUG. I don't know how to resolve this one. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 23:04:58 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:04:58 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051023220101.GA2896-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051023190458.3c7bd925.tleslie@tcn.net> >showcase their > projects LUG's have projects? does TLUG have projects? i am thinking software here .. maybe projects means more install-meet etc? -tl On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:01:01 -0400 William Park wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 01:45:54AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Christopher Browne wrote: > ... > > To be sure, there is little of value for you to learn, but there is much > > of value for you to teach. Being at Linuxworld means lots of giving and > > very little direct receiving, unless you're trying to hustle personal > > consulting work out of the TLUG booth. > > See below. > > > >There's certainly INTEREST. > > > > > >There are also some RESERVATIONS concerning some of the details in the > > >contract presented by Plum Communications, Inc. > > > > > > > > AFAIR, CLUE never had a problem complying with Plum requests. The > > contracts also never kept out other orgs such as PCCT or the FSF. Maybe > > the TLUG contract includes additional non-standard terms based on > > performance of previous booths. > > > > I will gladly offer any possible assistance as mediator between TLUG > > and Plum if that will help. Alternately, put the contentious contract > > details out on this list and see if the rest of us share your > > concerns. > > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are > 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum Com > can take it or leave it. > > 2. This is my main problem. Few people (including me) are more than > willing to pay for the booth. But, idea floated around that we > should each chip in and merge into single booth. Everybody agreed > that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under. > > So, I want to invite members from TLUG (Toronto), PLUG > (Peterborough), KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo), etc. to showcase their > projects at the tradeshow. They will be under GTALUG, but they will > also represent their own LUG. It's win-win for all concerned, > particularly for GTALUG. > > I don't know how to resolve this one. > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 23:10:12 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:10:12 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051023220101.GA2896-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435C1854.9060909@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are > 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum Com > can take it or leave it. > > 2. This is my main problem. Few people (including me) are more than > willing to pay for the booth. But, idea floated around that we > should each chip in and merge into single booth. Everybody agreed > that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under. > > So, I want to invite members from TLUG (Toronto), PLUG > (Peterborough), KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo), etc. to showcase their > projects at the tradeshow. They will be under GTALUG, but they will > also represent their own LUG. It's win-win for all concerned, > particularly for GTALUG. > > I don't know how to resolve this one. > Sounds great. Yesterday TLUG, today GTALUG, next year GTOLUG,the METALUG: The Greater Toronto-Ontario LUG :-) But seriously, you are being realistic. If the invitations go out, GTALUG is looking at lots more "blood, sweat and tears". Egos will have to be not only left at the door but the keyboards/lists. What kind of commitments in time, effort and money will have to be explored, if this is pursued. My 2-cents worth :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 00:33:29 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:33:29 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435C1854.9060909-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C1854.9060909@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051024003329.GA1977@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 07:10:12PM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote: > William Park wrote: > >Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are > > 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. ... > What kind of commitments in time, effort and money will have to be > explored, if this is pursued. GTALUG will do nothing. GTALUG will enjoy the fruit of other people's work. Isn't this what Open Source is all about? Produce no code of your own, use other people's software for free, pay nothing to the original developer, and claim credit for sale. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 00:52:35 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:52:35 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051024003329.GA1977-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C1854.9060909@pppoe.ca> <20051024003329.GA1977@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435C3053.1030900@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 07:10:12PM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>William Park wrote: >> >>>Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are >>> 1. they want street address of TLUG members. >>> 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > ... > >>What kind of commitments in time, effort and money will have to be >>explored, if this is pursued. > > > GTALUG will do nothing. GTALUG will enjoy the fruit of other people's > work. Isn't this what Open Source is all about? Produce no code of > your own, use other people's software for free, pay nothing to the > original developer, and claim credit for sale. > You mean that we're going to use Bittorrent? :-) My apologies to Bram Cohen :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 01:25:36 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:25:36 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051023220101.GA2896-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> William Park wrote: >Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are > 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > >2. This is my main problem. > William, thanks for the answer. However, IMO this shouldn't be a problem. The TLUG community booth _should_ be the promotion of the group, not the side businesses of its members. At times the TLUG booth at previous LWs was IMO an embarrassment, with all sorts of business cards on the booth EXCEPT for any that pointed people to TLUG! It's understandable that plumcom may have seen past behaviour as abuse of the non-profit area, which may explain the new explicit (and completely appropriate) demands. A TLUG booth, stripped of commercial function, _should_ be seen as a welcome opportunity. So far I've seen precious little on this list to address the fundamental questions Matt and others have repeatedly asked regarding why GTALUG exists, other than to organize and control for its own sake. A LinuxWorld booth would be the perfect location to hold a membership drive. But doing so requires vision and programs, neither of which have yet become apparent to those of us watching from outside the GTALUG bubble. So far the most concise statement of GTALUG's mandate / rationale / vision I've seen was stated by Bill during the thread started in July about "value to the community". Unfortunately that mandate, as I read it, insulted rather than inspired the community being asked to support the incorporation: >you have to accept the fact that this organization is what runs the mechanisms that allow this community to function. That is the mandate of GTALUG. > The choice of words was significant to me, considering the definitiveness of the statement. GTALUG is not here to "assist" the community, nor to "enable", "empower", "facilitate", etcetera. It's here to "ALLOW the community to function". To me this is sheer arrogance, and confirms rather than dispels Henry's suspicions of empire-building. I for one do *not* accept the "fact" presented above. If the existing "infrastructure" resources of the unincorporated TLUG were to be withdrawn, new sources would arise to take their place immediately, _without_ demands of incorporation as a precondition. I'd offer some of those resources myself. The community doesn't NEED an organized LUG, but it's waiting to see what incorporation would provide beyond what already exists to see if it WANTS one. Now it appears to come out that the big impediment to exhibiting at LinuxWorld for free is that the non-profit org is being asked to refrain from engaging in for-profit demonstrations: > Few people (including me) are more than > willing to pay for the booth. But, idea floated around that we > should each chip in and merge into single booth. Everybody agreed > that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under. > > The idea that people would be willing to "chip in", rather than abide by the no-commercial-use requirement of a free booth, suggests that GTALUG is intended to be used as an umbrella to finance a commercial booth at the show. Is this the case? I'm not saying that such function is illegitimate, but doing this sends a much clearer message to the community about the vision of GTALUG than anything I've seen to date. - Evan PS: One possibility for error here is in a potential wording misinterpretation. William stated that plumcom demanded "no demoing of TLUG members' work or business" at a free booth. The word "work" could be interpreted as commercial effort OR it could mean any kind of work including an open source project. I agree with the restriction on commercial use, but I don't think that Plum would object to the showing of LUG-endorsed members' open source projects. That ambiguity can be corrected with a simple wording change that I'm sure the Coles could agree to. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 02:19:38 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:19:38 -0400 Subject: Mandriva (was Re:Oct 25th., NewTLUG meeting - 1) The new Mandriva 2) new project(s) for NewTLUG) In-Reply-To: <200510231759.25681.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200510231759.25681.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <435C44BA.6010302@telly.org> Marc Lijour wrote: >> Mandriva is the company which develops Linux-Mandrake: >> the strong graphical Linux Operating System, famous for >> being easy to install and ready to use. >> >> >Mandriva is the new name for Mandrake (merged with Connectiva and Lycoris). >The Mandrake name rights was claimed by the authors of a (famous) cartoon >character. > > \begin{pedant} MandrakeSoft stopped the use of the magician's hat and wand in its logo (see image) but maintained the name MandrakeLinux for its product up until the merger. The star (from the top of the wand) remains in the current company logo. Mandriva is the name formed by the merger of Mandrake and Conectiva (one 'n'); Conectiva is actually the older of the two companies, and one of the participants in the failed UnitedLinux project. For more information on the merger see http://www.conectiva.com The merger was finalized in February; it wasn't until June that Mandriva acquired (not merged with) Lycoris (formerly known as Redmond Linux): http://frontal1.mandriva.com/en/company/press/pr/corporate_2556 \end{pedant} -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mandrake1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 03:14:30 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:14:30 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: <435BECD5.1010903-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <435BECD5.1010903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/05, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Herb Richter wrote: > > > > About a year ago visitors used MSIE about 9:1 over Netscape etc. For a > > few months it has been about 3:1 ...this last week, about 1:1 ! > > Last week on scruss.com : > > * Mozilla 46% > * MSIE 28% > > based on about 5000 unique visits. Interesting... I'm seeing something at least vaguely similar. It used to be that my web site saw something like 60%+ of its traffic coming in as "IE". That has, this month, dropped to 30% (460K of 1.52M pages). That seems encouraging. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 04:14:55 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:14:55 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435C3810.9040702-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 09:25:36PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William Park wrote: > > >Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are > > 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > > >2. This is my main problem. > PS: One possibility for error here is in a potential wording > misinterpretation. William stated that plumcom demanded "no demoing of > TLUG members' work or business" at a free booth. The word "work" could > be interpreted as commercial effort OR it could mean any kind of work > including an open source project. I agree with the restriction on > commercial use, but I don't think that Plum would object to the > showing of LUG-endorsed members' open source projects. That ambiguity > can be corrected with a simple wording change that I'm sure the Coles > could agree to. Exact wording is "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." As for GTALUG's purpose... Irrespective of incorporation, non-incorporation, for-profit, not-for-profit, GTALUG must provide benefit to the members. Otherwise, people will not join, and GTALUG will not grow. Tradeshow demos serve self-interests for all concerned. What those are, it'll be left as homework exercise for the readers. My fear is that the condition will stand, even if GTALUG pays for the booth. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 04:30:08 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:30:08 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051024041455.GA1991-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510232130w62a5faaep3e4cc632a5bb58d6@mail.gmail.com> > > PS: One possibility for error here is in a potential wording > > misinterpretation. William stated that plumcom demanded "no demoing of > > TLUG members' work or business" at a free booth. The word "work" could > > be interpreted as commercial effort OR it could mean any kind of work > > including an open source project. I agree with the restriction on > > commercial use, but I don't think that Plum would object to the > > showing of LUG-endorsed members' open source projects. That ambiguity > > can be corrected with a simple wording change that I'm sure the Coles > > could agree to. > > Exact wording is > "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." > As for GTALUG's purpose... Irrespective of incorporation, > non-incorporation, for-profit, not-for-profit, GTALUG must provide > benefit to the members. Otherwise, people will not join, and GTALUG > will not grow. For me, the single most important benefit of belonging to a user group is that it's a community - and I have access to it. Sometimes maybe I help, sometimes ... well. whatever. I have fun. > Tradeshow demos serve self-interests for all concerned. What those are, > it'll be left as homework exercise for the readers. My fear is that the > condition will stand, even if GTALUG pays for the booth. No fear. Opportunity abounds for Linux and Open Source. It's all over the map. Community demos serve communal interests... for all concerned. Sorry, don't see that as an exercise. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 04:32:56 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:32:56 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510232130w62a5faaep3e4cc632a5bb58d6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0510232130w62a5faaep3e4cc632a5bb58d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510232132r680868d2ta4afa3e315ca2c95@mail.gmail.com> > > > PS: One possibility for error here is in a potential wording > > > misinterpretation. William stated that plumcom demanded "no demoing of > > > TLUG members' work or business" at a free booth. The word "work" could > > > be interpreted as commercial effort OR it could mean any kind of work > > > including an open source project. I agree with the restriction on > > > commercial use, but I don't think that Plum would object to the > > > showing of LUG-endorsed members' open source projects. That ambiguity > > > can be corrected with a simple wording change that I'm sure the Coles > > > could agree to. > > > > Exact wording is > > "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." woops, missed a section. It's 6 months away. Why not just ask them there interpretation? -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 05:36:58 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:36:58 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051024041455.GA1991-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> William Park wrote: > >Exact wording is > "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." > > I'll speak to Bruce and see if he can clarify that -- whether "work" applied to non-commercial members' presentations. >As for GTALUG's purpose... Irrespective of incorporation, >non-incorporation, for-profit, not-for-profit, GTALUG must provide >benefit to the members. Otherwise, people will not join, and GTALUG >will not grow. > > Come on, let's not get silly. Of course it has to do with incorporation and for-profit versus non-profit. What I have yet to see from GTALUG is: 1) Who does it want as members? 2) What does it plan to do for them (outside of organization and structure upon what already exists)? >My fear is that the condition will stand, even if GTALUG pays for the booth. > > It's simply amazing that when "everybody agreed that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under", "everybody" did not have amongst them one person who considered such consequences. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 05:47:56 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051024054756.53196.qmail@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fire Fox 1.0 is a good browser but needs lots of plugins my msie has already been updated with. Also I find it impossible to save shortcuts to a favorite websites on the desktop. On a Pentium 1 200 MHZ PC firefox takes longer time to load from start than does msie. Chris --- Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/23/05, Stewart C. Russell > wrote: > > Herb Richter wrote: > > > > > > About a year ago visitors used MSIE about 9:1 > over Netscape etc. For a > > > few months it has been about 3:1 ...this last > week, about 1:1 ! > > > > Last week on scruss.com : > > > > * Mozilla 46% > > * MSIE 28% > > > > based on about 5000 unique visits. > > Interesting... I'm seeing something at least > vaguely similar. It > used to be that my web site saw something like 60%+ > of its traffic > coming in as "IE". > > That has, this month, dropped to 30% (460K of 1.52M > pages). > > That seems encouraging. > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats > someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, > lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 06:06:12 2005 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051024041455.GA1991-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/20461 How did we go from holding a meeting at the show to having a booth for demos at the show? JV On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, William Park wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 09:25:36PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> William Park wrote: >> >>> Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems are >>> 1. they want street address of TLUG members. >>> 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. >>> >>> 2. This is my main problem. > >> PS: One possibility for error here is in a potential wording >> misinterpretation. William stated that plumcom demanded "no demoing of >> TLUG members' work or business" at a free booth. The word "work" could >> be interpreted as commercial effort OR it could mean any kind of work >> including an open source project. I agree with the restriction on >> commercial use, but I don't think that Plum would object to the >> showing of LUG-endorsed members' open source projects. That ambiguity >> can be corrected with a simple wording change that I'm sure the Coles >> could agree to. > > Exact wording is > "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." > > As for GTALUG's purpose... Irrespective of incorporation, > non-incorporation, for-profit, not-for-profit, GTALUG must provide > benefit to the members. Otherwise, people will not join, and GTALUG > will not grow. > > Tradeshow demos serve self-interests for all concerned. What those are, > it'll be left as homework exercise for the readers. My fear is that the > condition will stand, even if GTALUG pays for the booth. > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 10:28:57 2005 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:28:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: ; from hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 15:49:19 -0400 References: Message-ID: <20051024102857.GA1961@localhost> On Sun Oct 23,2005 03:49:19 PM Herb Richter wrote: > For a few years now I've been watching the web browser usage > in the web site statistics for my site. Over the past year > or so I'm seeing the steady growth of Netscape and compatibles > use over MSIE An alternate opinion (at least for FireFox): -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 10:47:37 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:47:37 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435C72FA.9060404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> Message-ID: <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William Park wrote: >>Exact wording is >> "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." > > I'll speak to Bruce and see if he can clarify that -- whether "work" > applied to non-commercial members' presentations. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. So if someone comes up to me and asks if I can suggest/recommend where he can purchase a PC with Linux installed, I can recommend www.sub500.com or Flipside Technology Services but not myself who may be in that business? Or another LUG member? The above are listed on the Linux Online website, http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/laptop.html. Do I have to practice due diligence and check if any LUG members are involved? If that person does not want to deal with the above businesses (for whatever reason), I cannot do it even if that is my "bread and butter"? What if he has neither the time or inclination to seek help from the community? He just wants it working and is willing to pay. An hour of his time may be monetarily equivalent to a week of mine :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 11:00:14 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:00:14 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435CBEBE.10105@pppoe.ca> John Vetterli wrote: > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/20461 > > How did we go from holding a meeting at the show to having a booth for > demos at the show? Very easily, it's the nature of TLUG :-) It's a "democratic community". Hopefully, gone are the days of "I can tell you who the moderator is but I'll have to kill you." Democracy is messy, life is messy. I find that LUG members are individuals and getting them from point A to B (or even agreing what or where is point A) is like "sheperding cats" :-) I'm just grateful that this is Canada where there is no "one child policy" and you can enjoy chewing gum. That said, I'm OT and this looks like building up to a good flamefest :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 13:15:34 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:15:34 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435CBEBE.10105-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435CBEBE.10105@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435CDE76.8000800@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > I'm just grateful that this is Canada where there is no "one child > policy" and you can enjoy chewing gum. Let's not bring David Dingwall into this. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 13:36:54 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:36:54 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435CBBC9.5080009-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > So if someone comes up to me and asks if I can suggest/recommend where > he can purchase a PC with Linux installed, I can recommend > www.sub500.com or Flipside Technology Services but not myself who may > be in that business? If you are staffing the local user group tradeshow booth, you are representing a community which may include others who also sell PCs with Linux installed. The best possible answer (for the group, if not for you) is "come to a meeting or ask on a mailing list and you'll find a number of possible answers". That answer draws the person into the community, which is the primary reason for having the LUG booth there. Alternately, you can suggest one of the many companies who are exhibiting PCs with Linux installed elsewhere at the show. That's being helpful. You can mention that you do the service yourself, and if the person's interested you take their contact info and talk to them after the show. Doing so gives you the benefit of the contact, while giving the questioner some confidence that the TLUG booth wasn't overrun by people looking to use it to sell their own wares. Thankfully, though, this scenario doesn't happen often. People don't come to LUG booths looking to buy things (unless they're LUG-related things like T-shirts or memberships). They're looking for information about the community, how to get involved, and how to get help. Occasionally they ask for recommendations for good local sources of Linux-related stuff, hoping to get independent, unbiased opinions from the community. If the only answer they get from TLUG is "I recommend me", we'll never see them again, and likely neither will you. > What if he has neither the time or inclination to seek help from the > community? If this is the case, why is he at the TLUG booth asking that question? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 14:03:59 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:03:59 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435CE376.8010408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1129832435.31687.40.camel@holden.weait.net> <20051020203154.GL5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051022160305.GA22323@lupus.perlwolf.com> <20051022163133.GA2308@node1.opengeometry.net> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> Message-ID: <435CE9CF.8030303@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > >> So if someone comes up to me and asks if I can suggest/recommend where >> he can purchase a PC with Linux installed, I can recommend >> www.sub500.com or Flipside Technology Services but not myself who may >> be in that business? > > > If you are staffing the local user group tradeshow booth, you are > representing a community which may include others who also sell PCs with > Linux installed. The best possible answer (for the group, if not for > you) is "come to a meeting or ask on a mailing list and you'll find a > number of possible answers". That answer draws the person into the > community, which is the primary reason for having the LUG booth there. > Alternately, you can suggest one of the many companies who are > exhibiting PCs with Linux installed elsewhere at the show. That's being > helpful. > > You can mention that you do the service yourself, and if the person's > interested you take their contact info and talk to them after the show. > Doing so gives you the benefit of the contact, while giving the > questioner some confidence that the TLUG booth wasn't overrun by people > looking to use it to sell their own wares. Thanks, Evan. That was the reasoned reply I was hoping for. > Thankfully, though, this scenario doesn't happen often. People don't > come to LUG booths looking to buy things (unless they're LUG-related > things like T-shirts or memberships). They're looking for information > about the community, how to get involved, and how to get help. > Occasionally they ask for recommendations for good local sources of > Linux-related stuff, hoping to get independent, unbiased opinions from > the community. If the only answer they get from TLUG is "I recommend > me", we'll never see them again, and likely neither will you. > >> What if he has neither the time or inclination to seek help from the >> community? > If this is the case, why is he at the TLUG booth asking that question? An example: My ex-boss who has more money than he knows what to do it (his tastes are not extravagant; he's far from stupid) once drove his teenaged son 45 minutes to a Linux show, accompanied him at the show and drove him back. He had and has no interest in Linux but he did buy a linux book for his son. His son then asked me to help him setup Linux on his PC. No money was involved. The son is now doing his MBA. :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 14:40:45 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:40:45 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 11:02:34PM -0400, lfeder wrote: > The graphic engines on the PS3 and Xbox 360 is simply state of the art. > > The RSX on the PS3 is like, wow. > The RSX graphic performance is greater than two NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultras. So slightly less powerful than a current nvidia 7800GTX then? > A single GeForce 6800 Ultra alone, is a truly state of the art card for the PC. > Having better than 2 of these cards???that???s some true serious graphics power. No the 7800GTX is state of the art. The 6800 was state of the art a year ago. The chip in the PS3 is very much related to the 7800GTX. Remember you pay about as much for a top of the line nvidia cards as you are likely to have to pay for a PS3. You better be getting something for the money and/or sony is loosing some serious money on each unit. > So I was thinking, of using PS3???s as Linux graphic workstations. > Is any work being done on this when the PS3 is available? Well if things are going to be anything like the PS2, then sony will actually offer a linux version for it. One can always hope at least. At least some support for Cell processors appears to be coming in to the linux kernel. > I figure for the price, and you avoid any major bottlenecks, you???d end up with a > Near-supercomputer level graphic workstation for less than an average PC. Super computers generally don't have displays. They crunch numbers, and then some other system displays them for people to look at. SGIs used to be popular for such tasks on many supercomputers. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 14:52:13 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:52:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question Message-ID: What does the following mean? ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) As, in, What does $#{} really do? Thanks, -Joseph- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 15:03:19 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:03:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051024150319.GB27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 10:52:13AM -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote: > What does the following mean? > > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? $# = $OFMT, which is some weird deprecated perl thing that shouldn't be used anymore, because printf is a much more sane way to do things. Or so says the camel book. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 15:08:56 2005 From: jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:08:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > What does the following mean? > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? It returns the index of the last element in the list (or -1 if there are no elements in the list). See "man perldata" and search for $# (in vi you'd do that by typing /\$\#). -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 15:09:04 2005 From: devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Devin Whalen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:09:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1130166544.4349.34.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 10:52 -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote: > What does the following mean? > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? > > Thanks, > -Joseph- Hey, I think $reg->{'sale'}{'items'} returns an array reference. You then dereference the array with this: {$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} then the $# added to it causes the array to return the highest index. So if it returns -1 then the array is empty. However, I think that this is deprecated so it would be better to use scalar(@{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}}) and test for 0. Later -- Devin Whalen Programmer Synaptic Vision Inc Phone-(416) 539-0801 Fax- (416) 539-8280 543 Richmond Street West Toronto, Ontario Suite 223 M5V 1Y6 Box 105 Home-(416) 653-3982 Take back the Web with FireFox....a browser you can trust www.getfirefox.com .-. /v\ L I N U X // \\ /( )\ ^^-^^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:00:41 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:00:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: <20051024150319.GB27540-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024150319.GB27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051024170041.GA31921@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 11:03:19AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 10:52:13AM -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote: > > What does the following mean? > > > > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? > > $# = $OFMT, which is some weird deprecated perl thing that shouldn't be > used anymore, because printf is a much more sane way to do things. > > Or so says the camel book. Unfortunately, the expression {$reg...-1} following $# means that this is not the scalar variable named $# whose description you quote that is being used. Just as the statement: $x{'a'} = $x; refers to the array @x on the left side and the totally distinct scalar variable $x on the right side. (Well, a guru could quibble about the word totally, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is accurate enough.) The other replies, gaving the meaning as the index of the last element of the array whose reference is in $reg->{'sale'}{'items'} (or -1 if there are no elements in that array) were correct. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 16:36:10 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:36:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: <20051024170041.GA31921-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024150319.GB27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051024170041.GA31921@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys, that helps a lot. -Joseph- On 10/24/05, John Macdonald wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 11:03:19AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 10:52:13AM -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote: > > > What does the following mean? > > > > > > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > > > > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? > > > > $# = $OFMT, which is some weird deprecated perl thing that shouldn't be > > used anymore, because printf is a much more sane way to do things. > > > > Or so says the camel book. > > Unfortunately, the expression {$reg...-1} following $# > means that this is not the scalar variable named $# whose > description you quote that is being used. > > Just as the statement: > > $x{'a'} = $x; > > refers to the array @x on the left side and the totally distinct > scalar variable $x on the right side. (Well, a guru could > quibble about the word totally, but for the purposes of this > discussion, it is accurate enough.) > > The other replies, gaving the meaning as the index > of the last element of the array whose reference is in > $reg->{'sale'}{'items'} (or -1 if there are no elements in > that array) were correct. > > -- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 16:42:06 2005 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:42:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: <20051024054756.53196.qmail-l/RQB1PRMYSvuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024054756.53196.qmail@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435D0EDE.50901@golden.net> Christopher Charles wrote: >Fire Fox 1.0 is a good browser but needs lots of >plugins my msie has already been updated with. > >Also I find it impossible to save shortcuts to a >favorite websites on the desktop. > >On a Pentium 1 200 MHZ PC firefox takes longer time to >load from start than does msie. > >Chris > > > Last time I looked Firefox was at realease 1.07. Consider trying trying Beta 1.5 and pass on your feedback to them. Shortcuts in Firefox on Windows it's the same method for shortcuts as IE. I don't use either except the OS at work. In Linux you can easily create a url shortcut. Are comparing apples to apples, distro and desktop etc ? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:02:38 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:02:38 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: <20051024144045.GA27540-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > So slightly less powerful than a current nvidia 7800GTX then? Yes, but in this case we're talking about a complete machine for less than the cost of a 7800GTX. The only downside is that you can't upgrade it. To me a PS3 would make a perfectly fine workstation. Plus, PS3 gaming has got to beat the pants off of GNU/Linux gaming. ;) -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:16:00 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:16:00 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051024171600.GC27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 01:02:38PM -0400, Mike Newman wrote: > On 10/24/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > So slightly less powerful than a current nvidia 7800GTX then? > Yes, but in this case we're talking about a complete machine for less > than the cost of a 7800GTX. The only downside is that you can't > upgrade it. > To me a PS3 would make a perfectly fine workstation. Plus, PS3 gaming > has got to beat the pants off of GNU/Linux gaming. ;) Will it support VGA output at 1600x1200? DVI? Or only HDTV component and svideo and composit at NTSC? And I can play games on my linux system while it does other work. The PS3 would have to be rebooted to running only the game. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 18:18:41 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:18:41 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: <20051024144045.GA27540-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Super computers generally don't have displays. They crunch numbers, and > then some other system displays them for people to look at. SGIs used > to be popular for such tasks on many supercomputers. What would be pretty nifty would be to generate some libraries that know how to use the extra processors to do some parallel processing. The way that games get wacky wild power out of PS/2 hardware is by having them offload parts of the work onto the secondary processors. That traditionally required pretty funky programming. What would be very cool would be to generate libraries or such that can automate the offloading of computational effort. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 18:56:23 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:56:23 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051024185623.GD27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 02:18:41PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > What would be pretty nifty would be to generate some libraries that > know how to use the extra processors to do some parallel processing. > > The way that games get wacky wild power out of PS/2 hardware is by > having them offload parts of the work onto the secondary processors. > That traditionally required pretty funky programming. > > What would be very cool would be to generate libraries or such that > can automate the offloading of computational effort. If you could come up with a generic automated way to make programs multithreaded, you would probably become very rich. intel, amd, ibm, etc would all love to get a hold of something that could do that since that would make multicore cpus much easier to sell to people. Some compilers already try to do some loop unroling and making loops run parallel branches and such, but many things can't be automatically made parallel. It will be fun to see programmers in general try to wrap their heads around parallel execution. Especially debuging. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From saliola-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 19:03:30 2005 From: saliola-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Franco Saliola) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:03:30 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: <20051024144045.GA27540-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 11:02:34PM -0400, lfeder wrote: > > > So I was thinking, of using PS3???s as Linux graphic workstations. > > Is any work being done on this when the PS3 is available? > > Well if things are going to be anything like the PS2, then sony will > actually offer a linux version for it. One can always hope at least. > At least some support for Cell processors appears to be coming in to the > linux kernel. I heard an interview with a Sony employee working on linux for the PS2/3 on lugradio [lugradio.org]. The PS3 will have an option to get a working linux distribution. It's not clear whether it will be a separate package or something that comes with the purchase of the hard drive unit. Franco -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 20:58:00 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:58:00 -0400 Subject: nonprofit organizations using open source Message-ID: <435D4AD8.40809@pppoe.ca> I'm looking at seeking employment in the nonprofit sector. Does anyone know of any nonprofit organizations or charities in Toronto that use open source or FOSS? I don't expect that there are any that use solely open source. I may be wrong, in fact I hope I'm wrong. I expect a mix of Microsoft products, BSD and Linux. Just the name of the organization and the kinds of operating systems used will be sufficient. Of course, any other relevant information will be greatly appreciated. You may reply to me personally or to the list, whichever you choose. All confidences will be honored. I'm thinking of adding whatever organizations I receive to the GTALUG Wiki when completed - just the name and kinds of OS used. Thanks. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 21:58:23 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:58:23 +0200 (IST) Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: <20051024185623.GD27540-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051024185623.GD27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> What would be very cool would be to generate libraries or such that >> can automate the offloading of computational effort. > > If you could come up with a generic automated way to make programs > multithreaded, you would probably become very rich. PI calculus is said to be a formal model for representing such programs. It can be very hairy, and I know very little about it, but I know that f.ex. MUD role-playing games can be split across several CPUs relatively easily because each player/node only sees a small part of the world at any one time, and because the tasks to be done at each cpu are clearly defined beforehead. I have some experience with remotely synchronized state machines (hardware and software) and I can say that it gets hairy very fast. The telecom industry has a lot of experience with such networks and I think that they have funded a large part of the research for parallel computing efforts. The other large contributor was transputer research. The act of parsing a program for possibly parallel tasks and splitting them across available nodes for execution is very much like printed circuit layout algorythms (like a travelling salesman algorythm but with more interesting constraints and in N dimensions). The act of parsing such a program can be harder than actually running it afterwards, and proving that the split/spread is optimal is even worse. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 22:28:55 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:28:55 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435CE376.8010408-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > > > So if someone comes up to me and asks if I can suggest/recommend where > > he can purchase a PC with Linux installed, I can recommend > > www.sub500.com or Flipside Technology Services but not myself who may > > be in that business? > > If you are staffing the local user group tradeshow booth, you are > representing a community which may include others who also sell PCs with > Linux installed. The best possible answer (for the group, if not for > you) is "come to a meeting or ask on a mailing list and you'll find a > number of possible answers". That answer draws the person into the > community, which is the primary reason for having the LUG booth there. > Alternately, you can suggest one of the many companies who are > exhibiting PCs with Linux installed elsewhere at the show. That's being > helpful. I believe there were some problems with how the user group booth went, two years ago. I seem to recall it being overrun with people trying to do 8 different things, and I certainly got the impression that several were trying to hawk their own consulting services. It seems to me that there are some probable participants in staffing such a booth that might have an interest in that sort of thing, which must be handled with great care lest it be really rather inappropriate. I'll definitely carry that issue with me into the discussion. > You can mention that you do the service yourself, and if the person's > interested you take their contact info and talk to them after the show. > Doing so gives you the benefit of the contact, while giving the > questioner some confidence that the TLUG booth wasn't overrun by people > looking to use it to sell their own wares. If William uses the booth to promote his USB key-based distributions, that would probably contribute to the "overrun" property. But there's probably a way to handle it that would be not inappropriate... Thanks for your comments, Evan; they are even (particularly?) useful when they disagree with some of my notions. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 23:02:22 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:02:22 -0400 Subject: PS3-XBOX 360 as Linux Graphics workstations In-Reply-To: References: <20051024144045.GA27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051024185623.GD27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051024190222.2f0c9d24.tleslie@tcn.net> I did some research for prof's when i was getting my BS.c-CompSci in MacMaster and my M.Math at Waterloo. back in the late 80's they thought it was important for concurrency processing, because they thought it was impossible for processors to reach the Ghz speeds they do today. Much software and procedures where built for concurrency, but essentially they will not come out strong untill the cpu speeds start to really hit a brick wall, which they are kinda starting to now. For graphics, ray tracing is a very concurrent process, its actually childs play, and of course its important for graphics workstations of the future. With the dual cores coming out now, programmers have to be more aware making multi-thread apps. In the case of the raytracing example, one couldhave a seperate thread for each "ray", but they all would have to access the graphics primatives in the environment list (but first there bounding boxes). This means millions of threads are trying to grab access to data at once, and that is a very big bottle neck. Because RAM will be in each "cell" it will allow independant local processing. What would be "neat" would be if all cells could stop and syncronously latch the environemnt of the 3d objects to RAM, (i.e. one set of transfers, not millions of them) and each cell could then go on to process its ray via lighting models and geometry bounces. But for making use of multi-processors, as i said there are languages out there, in fact microsoft has a "Add on" to C# that it is spec'ing out and has a very early beta i believe. Mono, i think, is totally on top of this, and might be just as far along. You will probably see a good bit more movement in concurrent processing on the MS .Net C# platform and on the Mono platform in the next years. A wide-area concurrency Comega (extension of C#) project is noted below below is a blurb about Comega: ============================================ C? is a research programming language. It is pronounced "c" followed by " -mg, -mg". It can be written (and searched for) as Cw or the "Comega language". A C? compiler preview is now available for download. [ The latest release no longer requires Visual Studio .NET 2003 to be installed on the target machine!] You can also browse the documentation online. Read about C? on MSDN! Read about C? in Infoworld! C? is an extension of C# in two areas: - A control flow extension for asynchronous wide-area concurrency (formerly known as Polyphonic C#): Modern Concurrency Abstractions for C#. Nick Benton, Luca Cardelli, Cedric Fournet. ?2004 ACM [ PDF] (Revised version.) To appear in TOPLAS. ?2002 Springer [ PDF] In: Boris Magnusson, Editor: ECOOP 2002 - Object-Oriented Programming, 16th European Conference, Malaga, Spain, June 10-14 2002, Proceedings. Lecture Notes in Computer Science 2374, Springer, 2002. ISBN 3-540-43759-2. pp. 415-440. - A data type extension for XML and table manipulation (formerly known as Xen and as X#): The essence of data access in C?.Gavin Bierman, Erik Meijer, and Wolfram Schulte. Accepted for publication at ECOOP 2005 Programming with Rectangles, Triangles, and Circles. Gavin Bierman, Erik Meijer, and Wolfram Schulte. ?2004 XMLconference [ HTML] In Proc. XML 2003. Unifying Tables, Objects and Documents. Erik Meijer, Wolfram Schulte and Gavin Bierman. [ PDF] Updated version to appear. In Proc. DP-COOL 2003. Reasons why these kinds of extensions (and possibly more) are related, are described in this talk: Transitions in Programming Models. Luca Cardelli. [ PDF] New University of Lisbon, November 13, 2003. Project Members Nick Benton Gavin Bierman Luca Cardelli Erik Meijer Claudio Russo Wolfram Schulte ============================================================================================= On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:58:23 +0200 (IST) Peter wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > >> What would be very cool would be to generate libraries or such that > >> can automate the offloading of computational effort. > > > > If you could come up with a generic automated way to make programs > > multithreaded, you would probably become very rich. > > PI calculus is said to be a formal model for representing such programs. > It can be very hairy, and I know very little about it, but I know that > f.ex. MUD role-playing games can be split across several CPUs relatively > easily because each player/node only sees a small part of the world at > any one time, and because the tasks to be done at each cpu are clearly > defined beforehead. > > I have some experience with remotely synchronized state machines > (hardware and software) and I can say that it gets hairy very fast. The > telecom industry has a lot of experience with such networks and I think > that they have funded a large part of the research for parallel > computing efforts. The other large contributor was transputer research. > > The act of parsing a program for possibly parallel tasks and splitting > them across available nodes for execution is very much like printed > circuit layout algorythms (like a travelling salesman algorythm but with > more interesting constraints and in N dimensions). The act of parsing > such a program can be harder than actually running it afterwards, and > proving that the split/spread is optimal is even worse. > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 00:02:35 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:02:35 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051024200235.10de0683.tleslie@tcn.net> Just putting out my 2 cents. If it really was valuable to hawk at the booth? then that implies the hawker wouldn't mind giving a standard sales commish to the LUG? like 20%... could be some cool $$$ for the LUG for lcd-projector, etc, just a thought. And you could have ground rules too!, like after the vistor finish the tour of the the LUG booth, you walk them away for the hawk session? This would be an example of profiting from the evils that one might want to ban from the booth. You would also want to make sure no member is hawking the same goods, hawks could also pay a flat fee for the day? Or all hawkers agree to share completely in the days spoils and act as a team? I think it might be the case that its either one extreme or the other, either endorse it and regulate/govern it, or ban it 100%. Maybe the TLUG booth turns out to also be a "Linux Consulting Booth" (with signs and stuff) to boot. I guess that would alter the price of the booth however. -tl On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:28:55 -0400 Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/24/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Meng Cheah wrote: > > > > > So if someone comes up to me and asks if I can suggest/recommend where > > > he can purchase a PC with Linux installed, I can recommend > > > www.sub500.com or Flipside Technology Services but not myself who may > > > be in that business? > > > > If you are staffing the local user group tradeshow booth, you are > > representing a community which may include others who also sell PCs with > > Linux installed. The best possible answer (for the group, if not for > > you) is "come to a meeting or ask on a mailing list and you'll find a > > number of possible answers". That answer draws the person into the > > community, which is the primary reason for having the LUG booth there. > > Alternately, you can suggest one of the many companies who are > > exhibiting PCs with Linux installed elsewhere at the show. That's being > > helpful. > > I believe there were some problems with how the user group booth went, > two years ago. I seem to recall it being overrun with people trying > to do 8 different things, and I certainly got the impression that > several were trying to hawk their own consulting services. > > It seems to me that there are some probable participants in staffing > such a booth that might have an interest in that sort of thing, which > must be handled with great care lest it be really rather > inappropriate. > > I'll definitely carry that issue with me into the discussion. > > > You can mention that you do the service yourself, and if the person's > > interested you take their contact info and talk to them after the show. > > Doing so gives you the benefit of the contact, while giving the > > questioner some confidence that the TLUG booth wasn't overrun by people > > looking to use it to sell their own wares. > > If William uses the booth to promote his USB key-based distributions, > that would probably contribute to the "overrun" property. But there's > probably a way to handle it that would be not inappropriate... > > Thanks for your comments, Evan; they are even (particularly?) useful > when they disagree with some of my notions. > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 00:11:03 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:11:03 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> Message-ID: <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > I believe there were some problems with how the user group booth went, > two years ago. I seem to recall it being overrun with people trying > to do 8 different things, and I certainly got the impression that > several were trying to hawk their own consulting services. > > It seems to me that there are some probable participants in staffing > such a booth that might have an interest in that sort of thing, which > must be handled with great care lest it be really rather > inappropriate. > > I'll definitely carry that issue with me into the discussion. > If William uses the booth to promote his USB key-based distributions, > that would probably contribute to the "overrun" property. But there's > probably a way to handle it that would be not inappropriate... > > Thanks for your comments, Evan; they are even (particularly?) useful > when they disagree with some of my notions. I'd like to clarify that I'm NOT in a Linux-centric business. Heck, I'm a working stiff. I was playing the devil's advocate. I remember asking Matthew Rice at a Metro Convention Centre show a few years back "Where is the TLUG booth?" He answered "They couldn't get their act together." He was giving a presentation/seminar that day. I understand Evan's concerns and blindly following "Individual members may not promote their own work or business." is unacceptable. What kind of professional/consultant cannot even disclose what he/she does? Evan's comments are valid and he has offered to mediate. GTALUG can take Evan's comments as a basis for discussion and formulating an acceptable policy. Over to you, Christopher; I've said enuf :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 01:13:36 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:13:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435D86C0.4040207@georgetown.wehave.net> Herb Richter wrote: > Based on pages served, last week: (most of the rest were bots) > > MSIE: 46.8% > > Netscape (compatible) 34.97% > Mozilla 5.62% > Netscape 1.41% > ------ 42.0% Seems very high, did you remember to exclude hits from yourself ... that can make a huge difference. Fraser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 02:27:15 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:27:15 -0400 Subject: Oct 25th., NewTLUG meeting - 1) The new Mandriva 2) new project(s) for NewTLUG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510242227.15941.marc@lijour.net> On Sunday 23 October 2005 16:23, Herb Richter wrote: > This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held > Tues Oct 25th., at Seneca College. > > ...please note that the room is different than our usual room. > more info below... > ...drivers; please note the change of status of the one outdoor > parking lot - see "Parking:" below > > Date: Tue, Oct 25th, > Time: 7 - 10pm > > Presenters: 1) Evan Leibovitch > Evan has been a passionate and effective advocate of all > things Linux for many years including: speaking at > conferences around the world, president of the Linux > Professional Institute, writer for Linux Journal and > other magazines and especially important for us, founder > of NewTLUG. > > 2) various. > > Topics: 1) The new Mandriva. > Mandriva is the company which develops Linux-Mandrake: > the strong graphical Linux Operating System, famous for > being easy to install and ready to use. > http://frontal1.mandriva.com/en/community/users/about_mandriva_linux Hi Herb, I just received that post from the Mandriva newsletter. You may already know about it, but I send it just in case. ---- Mandriva material for Linux User Groups Do you represent a Linux User Group (LUG)? Will you be organising a Linux-related event soon? If so, please contact us! We can provide you with Mandriva-related material which you can distribute to your members during the event. Contact us at lugs at mandrivalinux dot org. ---- > 2a) Discussion of a project that may be of interest to > NewTLUG members: to compile a list or cross reference of > utilities and features that differ between distributions > i.e. what would "lokkit" in Redhat be in Debian, in SUSE, > in Mandrake etc; or ntsysv, rpm, up2date, kudzu ... > > 2b) What would NewTLUG collectively like to see happen at > LinuxWorld with user group activities. Among other > things, we may have the opportunity to have our April '06 > meeting at the conference on the Tuesday evening. > > Location: Room S1206 Stephen E. Quinlan building (SEQ) - Seneca at York > Building number 40 on the map: > http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/map/KeeleMasterMap.pdf > The Seneca at York Campus, which is physically located in the > south east part of York University, at Keele/Steeles. > > Directions: For detailed directions and info on public transit, please > see: http://cs.senecac.on.ca/~scs/seneca-directions.html > note: parking lot "HH" is no longer available to visitors > > Parking: Paid parking is available on campus (about: $8). > Building #84 on the map above is a close-by parking > garage. - note #87 the parking lot is no longer for > visitors so PLEASE use the parking garage (#84) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Herb Richter > Richter Equipment, Toronto, Ontario > http://PartsAndService.com > http://PartsAndService.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > announce mailing list > announce-Q3LYrvjeUVfMLq2q1+GOoQ at public.gmane.org > http://www.newtlug.linux.ca/mailman/listinfo/announce > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 03:05:22 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:05:22 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051023220101.GA2896-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On October 23, 2005 18:01, William Park wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 01:45:54AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > I will gladly offer any possible assistance as mediator between > > TLUG and Plum if that will help. Alternately, put the contentious > > contract details out on this list and see if the rest of us share > > your concerns. > > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems > are 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum > Com can take it or leave it. Not to mention that even if you had such information, it would quite likely be illegal under the Privacy Act to hand it over to another party without the express permission of the members. > 2. This is my main problem. Few people (including me) are more > than willing to pay for the booth. But, idea floated around that > we should each chip in and merge into single booth. Everybody > agreed that GTALUG is ideal umbrella to be under. > > So, I want to invite members from TLUG (Toronto), PLUG > (Peterborough), KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo), etc. to showcase > their projects at the tradeshow. They will be under GTALUG, but > they will also represent their own LUG. It's win-win for all > concerned, particularly for GTALUG. > > I don't know how to resolve this one. Simple. People should not use the TLUG booth as a vehicle to advance their own commercial interests. If benefits accrue to them indirectly as a result of their presence in the booth, more power to them but I stress the word "indirectly. That means no business cards or branded apparel promoting their own wares or services. It rubs many people, the folks at Plumcom included apparently, the wrong way when this supposedly non-profit entity which claims to be a user group behaves more like a for-profit venture the purpose of which seems to be to benefit some select number of people. If I ran Plumcom, I would also insist that any entity that behaves like a for-profit entity should pay like a for-profit entity. If TLUG members or executive want a booth where they can advance their own commercial interests, there are much better options. A few that come to mind are: speaking at the conference, getting their own booth, teaming up with other people to rent a booth, or exhibiting a complementary product or service that advances the interests of one of the many vendors at the conference at the booth of one of those vendors. You may have noticed personnel from various companies, small and large, that offer products and services in the booths of larger vendors like IBM, HP, Sun, Red Hat, Novell, etc. Those third party exhibitors typically do not pay the large vendor to be there. It is a way for the larger vendors to show that there is a healthy ecosystem around them and that they have depth and breadth in their offerings. The third parties usually wear the branded apparel of the large vendor but their name tags would have the name of their company. It is a fair trade. The smaller companies get a chance to talk to prospective customers. The big companies benefit when their VARs sell bundles solutions. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 03:43:54 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Netscape et al gaining on MSIE In-Reply-To: <435D86C0.4040207-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <435D86C0.4040207@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > Seems very high, did you remember to exclude hits from yourself ... that > can make a huge difference. These represent about 40,000 page requests so my hits would not matter much, also, I usually use lynx. ;-) -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 13:06:05 2005 From: tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org (Mailing List) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:06:05 -0400 Subject: Where can I pickup Debian DVD in Mississauga or GTA? Message-ID: Hi, I am looking for the Debian 3.1 DVD set, from a real store (not shipping) located in the GTA or Mississauga. Any ideas who has it in stock? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 20:22:55 2005 From: tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org (Mailing List) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:22:55 -0400 Subject: Buying Debian DVD in GTA / Mississauga Message-ID: Where can I buy the Debian DVDs in the GTA or Mississauga area. I want to pick them up in a store, not mail order. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 14:57:54 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: Buying Debian DVD in GTA / Mississauga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051025145754.GE27540@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 04:22:55PM -0400, Mailing List wrote: > Where can I buy the Debian DVDs in the > GTA or Mississauga area. I want to pick > them up in a store, not mail order. Why not just get someone to make you a set? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 15:11:51 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 25 Oct 2005 11:11:51 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435D7817.8050700-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: Meng Cheah writes: > I remember asking Matthew Rice at a Metro Convention Centre show a few > years back "Where is the TLUG booth?" He answered "They couldn't get their > act together." He was giving a presentation/seminar that day. LOL. One of my more politically correct and sensitive moments. Cherish it. They don't come often ;) -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 16:44:40 2005 From: leah-8JrgHtYBq2OWVfeAwA7xHQ at public.gmane.org (Leah Cunningham) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:44:40 -0400 Subject: Apache crypt to SHA or standard Unix crypt In-Reply-To: References: <1129157806.5142.51.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> Message-ID: <1130258680.32187.11.camel@tchitow.int.iplink.net> On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 04:31 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Leah Cunningham wrote: > > Any clue where I would start? Doing a crypt like this works fine for > > LDAP in perl: > > > > my($cpass) = crypt "$pass",(join '', ('.', '/', 0..9, > > 'A'..'Z','a'..'z')[rand 64, rand 64]); > > Can you give us examples maybe? From my experiments, the crypt > is the same: As a follow-up, you are correct, the crypt is the same. I just figured out that I was getting trailing carriage returns on the password file that I was reading in that I was failing to chomp, so it was actually a problem with my script. > but the MD5 format is different: > > [behdad at home ~]$ htpasswd -c -m -b htpasswd behdad testPass > Adding password for user behdad > [behdad at home ~]$ cat htpasswd > behdad:$apr1$uP4iP...$05P2T5MH8yXH7qJEQwezV. -- Leah Cunningham : d416-585-9971x692 : d416-703-5977 : m416-559-6511 Frauerpower! Co. : www.frauerpower.com : Toronto, ON Canada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 17:03:46 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:03:46 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> G. Matthew Rice wrote: > Meng Cheah writes: > >>I remember asking Matthew Rice at a Metro Convention Centre show a few >>years back "Where is the TLUG booth?" He answered "They couldn't get their >>act together." He was giving a presentation/seminar that day. > > > LOL. One of my more politically correct and sensitive moments. Cherish it. > They don't come often ;) Sorry, Matt. I wasn't thinking, again. I just don't think GTALUG's absence at Linux World / Network World 2006 is an option, short of an unforeseen disaster. The conditions aren't unacceptable for a "free" booth given Evan's explanation and his offer to help find an acceptable solution. I believe we'll work something out. I'll end here before I put the other foot in the mouth :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 18:46:55 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:46:55 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435E6572.1080104-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435AABF2.1070502@telly.org> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > I just don't think GTALUG's absence at Linux World / Network World > 2006 is an option, short of an unforeseen disaster. Regardless of the current indecisions expressed on this list, there _will_ be a local LUG presence at LinuxWorld; it's just unclear for now whether this presence will take place from within a GTALUG booth or be hosted elsewhere. What is yet to be determined is whether the brain-trust of GTALUG can wrap it collective head around the reasonable insistence that a free booth be primarily used to show off the LUG rather than its members. This is only a contentious issue for those those who primarily want to use TLUG to sell their own wares. Within mosts non-profit bodies and other LUGs, such interests are held by sponsors rather than members. Within GTALUG, they appear to be the prevailing agenda, resulting in a lack of collective work and vision. Damn shame. > The conditions aren't unacceptable for a "free" booth given Evan's > explanation and his offer to help find an acceptable solution. To that end, I've scheduled an in-person meeting with Plum for later this week. As William said in the message that started this sub-thread, "stay tuned". > I believe we'll work something out. Me too. Thanks for your confidence and optimism, Meng. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 19:21:37 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:21:37 -0400 Subject: nonprofit organizations using open source In-Reply-To: <435D4AD8.40809-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <435D4AD8.40809@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051025192137.GA3439@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 04:58:00PM -0400, Meng Cheah wrote: > I'm looking at seeking employment in the nonprofit sector. > > Does anyone know of any nonprofit organizations or charities in Toronto > that use open source or FOSS? I don't expect that there are any that use > solely open source. I may be wrong, in fact I hope I'm wrong. I expect a > mix of Microsoft products, BSD and Linux. > > Just the name of the organization and the kinds of operating systems > used will be sufficient. Of course, any other relevant information will > be greatly appreciated. You may reply to me personally or to the list, > whichever you choose. All confidences will be honored. > > I'm thinking of adding whatever organizations I receive to the GTALUG > Wiki when completed - just the name and kinds of OS used. I see the name Greenpeace alot. Main problem with NPO is that their budget (hence IT budget) is approved by whoever give the money. But, I would think health-care sector would have more NPOs than IT sector. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 19:47:09 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:47:09 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 11:05:22PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On October 23, 2005 18:01, William Park wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 01:45:54AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > I will gladly offer any possible assistance as mediator between > > > TLUG and Plum if that will help. Alternately, put the contentious > > > contract details out on this list and see if the rest of us share > > > your concerns. > > > > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems > > are 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum > > Com can take it or leave it. > > Not to mention that even if you had such information, it would quite > likely be illegal under the Privacy Act to hand it over to another > party without the express permission of the members. Sharp eye! Yes, it's illegal, and, I would think, not a good thing to have in a legally binding contract. But, it is good starting point for "re-negotiation" (which is happening). > > I don't know how to resolve this one. > > Simple. People should not use the TLUG booth as a vehicle to advance > their own commercial interests. Such simplistic statement betrays lack of experience and ignorance of reality. 1. Tradeshow is about business. People come to the show to do business (both visitors and exhibitors). It would be helpful if everyone here reflect on that reality. 2. Furthermore, it would be helpful if everyone recognizes that GTALUG has evolved and grown. We are still a gathering of Linux guys. We will get together to talk about Linux hardware/software, with or without GTALUG. But, GTALUG (formal entity) will pursue business opportunities, not as retail operation (which seems to be what has got everyone's panties up in knot), but as advocacy and education group. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:09:41 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:09:41 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435E7D9F.3070109-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051025200941.GA3494@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 02:46:55PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > What is yet to be determined is whether the brain-trust of GTALUG can > wrap it collective head around the reasonable insistence that a free > booth be primarily used to show off the LUG rather than its members. > > This is only a contentious issue for those those who primarily want to > use TLUG to sell their own wares. Within mosts non-profit bodies and > other LUGs, such interests are held by sponsors rather than members. If I sponsor GTALUG, am I a sponsor, a member, a board member, or all of the above? > Within GTALUG, they appear to be the prevailing agenda, resulting in a > lack of collective work and vision. Damn shame. > > >The conditions aren't unacceptable for a "free" booth given Evan's > >explanation and his offer to help find an acceptable solution. > > To that end, I've scheduled an in-person meeting with Plum for later > this week. As William said in the message that started this sub-thread, > "stay tuned". Arrrgh... Evan, you're not helping here. Please don't speaking on behalf of GTALUG or impersonate GTALUG officier without proper authority (ie. board's written approval). Be assured, we're in negotiation with tradeshow organizers, so matters will be settled quickly. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:14:15 2005 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up Message-ID: <20051025201415.38068.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, For those of you who didn't attend the FOSS symposium organized by Seneca college yesterday or for those who attended :-) , I wrote a personal chronicle of the event: http://www.fduran.com/wordpress/?p=25 thanks, Fernando __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 21:48:24 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:48:24 -0400 Subject: nonprofit organizations using open source In-Reply-To: <20051025192137.GA3439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435D4AD8.40809@pppoe.ca> <20051025192137.GA3439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435EA828.3080807@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > I see the name Greenpeace alot. Main problem with NPO is that their > budget (hence IT budget) is approved by whoever give the money. But, I > would think health-care sector would have more NPOs than IT sector. I meant "I'm looking at seeking employment in the IT dept of a nonprofit organization." Q: What IT dept? One person does it all here. A: OK, where do I start? :-) Dream job: nonprofit body with FOSS in Toronto Wake up!!! Oh well, one can dream, can't one? Agreed, NPOs may pay less but I'm willing... Anyone knows of anyone looking for a tech? Failing which, I'll settle for the name of the npo and the FOSS used :-) Colin has graciously provided me with the first entry. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 22:58:38 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 Message-ID: <20051025225838.41451.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Just to follow-up on the recent comments regarding next year's Linux World / Network World 2006 show: - Yes, there were problems with the way TLUG volunteers handled 2003 show, arguably serious problems. However it was a case of live and learn. The biggest problems at the 2005 show were things like so many people dropped by our booth it got crowded, problems that were out of everyone's hands to fix at that time. - Yes, there are some issues between Plum Communications and GTALUG. Plum made an offer, namely they will provide a free booth under the following conditions.... The board meet on Monday (I sat in on that board meeting) and are putting together a response. The board is willing to offer some stuff Plum have not asked for in exchange for them dropping some stuff they have asked for. In other words everyone involved is, as I understand it, expecting some give and take. - Yes, there are debates as to how to handle a NewTLUG meeting at the show, who should talk, how the talk should be handled, etc.. None of these are serious concerns, Herb has done a first rate job of booking speakers for NewTLUG for many months and I am very confident in his ability to book a speaker (or speakers) for the April meeting at the Convention Centre. Still the final call on this will be Herb's. - What is also true is that Evan Leibovitch offer to help resolve issues is not wanted or needed at least at this time. For reasons that I don't fully follow (and quite frankly I don't want to follow) Evan seems to have managed to greatly annoy a majority of the GTALUG board members and there seems to be a common view within the board that Evan is one of the last people GTALUG would want to act on behalf of GTALUG. Communications between GTALUG and Plum Communications are to be handled by GTALUG board members or who ever the board delegates to (which at least for now I gather is to be me). In the mean time Evan Leibovitch is only an unwelcome distraction to the job of putting together a deal GTALUG/Plum Communications can be happy with and the very real work of putting together a booth. Colin McGregor BCC: Stephanie Cole - Plum Communications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 00:35:35 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:35:35 -0400 Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up In-Reply-To: <20051025201415.38068.qmail-8P7eC/iJEu6A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051025201415.38068.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510251735q73b4495n58a3e2e09607d6b1@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/05, Fernando Duran wrote: > Hello, > > For those of you who didn't attend the FOSS symposium > organized by Seneca college yesterday or for those who > attended :-) , I wrote a personal chronicle of the > event: > > http://www.fduran.com/wordpress/?p=25 Thanks for the writeup! I'd been looking forward to it for a while, but at pretty much the last minute was unable to. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 00:43:17 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 25 Oct 2005 20:43:17 -0400 Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up In-Reply-To: <20051025201415.38068.qmail-8P7eC/iJEu6A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051025201415.38068.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fernando Duran writes: > For those of you who didn't attend the FOSS symposium > organized by Seneca college yesterday or for those who > attended :-) , I wrote a personal chronicle of the > event: > > http://www.fduran.com/wordpress/?p=25 Hi Fernando, Great review of the symposium. The only comment that I have is that the symposium seems to be 'expanding' into non-educational topics. Athough LTSP, Open Solaris and OOo can be used in education settings, they have a much broader use than that. That said, I'd definitely recommend the symposium for anyone on the list if/when it happens next year. And a great value for $20 (I even received two t-shirts :) Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 00:47:09 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 25 Oct 2005 20:47:09 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025200941.GA3494-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> <20051025200941.GA3494@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > If I sponsor GTALUG, am I a sponsor, a member, a board member, or all of > the above? Umm, using your own terms, it makes you a sponsor. Unless you are implying that someone can 'kick in some sponsorship' to get a seat on the board ;) I'm actually not certain what your point is by making this statement. Could you clarify it? Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 00:53:11 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:53:11 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up In-Reply-To: References: <20051025201415.38068.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > That said, I'd definitely recommend the symposium for anyone on the list > if/when it happens next year. And a great value for $20 (I even received two > t-shirts :) I didn't get any. They said they were out. You owe me one! :O) TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 01:00:14 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 25 Oct 2005 21:00:14 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025194709.GB3439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > > Simple. People should not use the TLUG booth as a vehicle to advance > > their own commercial interests. > > Such simplistic statement betrays lack of experience and ignorance of > reality. Reality is that two years ago 'someone' from RWL almost booted out CLUE and TLUG permanently (it was a shared booth, I believe) because there was nothing but personal business cards (and some other businesses) and an abundance of people milling around and impeding traffic flow for the rest of the aisle. For a booth that was supposed to be about advocacy and community, that message was lost and what occurred appeared to be a gross abuse of free floor space. It's good thing for GTALUG that Bruce is a forgiving and generous man. > 1. Tradeshow is about business. People come to the show to do business > (both visitors and exhibitors). It would be helpful if everyone > here reflect on that reality. And TLUG is about community (or should be). Can we also reflect on that? > 2. Furthermore, it would be helpful if everyone recognizes that GTALUG > has evolved and grown. We are still a gathering of Linux guys. We > will get together to talk about Linux hardware/software, with or > without GTALUG. But, GTALUG (formal entity) will pursue business > opportunities, not as retail operation (which seems to be what has > got everyone's panties up in knot), but as advocacy and education > group. I'm sorry but I disagree. I think that part that is bunching up most panties around here is that no one outside of the GTALUG board seems to know what GTALUG is. And after repeated requests from many people, no information has really been forthcoming. GTALUG didn't evolve. It incorporated and presumed to envelop the original TLUG. Was there ever anything formal on this move for the 1000+ people that comprised the original TLUG to discuss? I consider myself a member of TLUG but I never paid any membership fees to GTALUG. Am I a TLUG member? I don't see how I can be if TLUG==GTALUG. Will the real TLUG please stand up, please stand up... Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 01:04:30 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 25 Oct 2005 21:04:30 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025225838.41451.qmail-p6KvMhi7PWKB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051025225838.41451.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Colin McGregor writes: > - Yes, there were problems with the way TLUG volunteers handled 2003 show, > arguably serious problems. However it was a case of live and learn. The > biggest problems at the 2005 show were things like so many people dropped > by our booth it got crowded, problems that were out of everyone's hands to > fix at that time. Don't forget other _big_ problems like people selling Linux networks for $7k to small businesses ;) It simply got way out of hand. > at this time. For reasons that I don't fully follow (and quite frankly I > don't want to follow) Evan seems to have managed to greatly annoy a > majority of the GTALUG board members and there seems to be a common view > within the board that Evan is one of the last people GTALUG would want to > act on behalf of GTALUG. Everyone has a skill. Evan's ability to ruffle feathers is rather endearing to watch. > Communications between GTALUG and Plum Communications are to be handled by > GTALUG board members or who ever the board delegates to (which at least for > now I gather is to be me). I hope and expect that it will all work out. Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 01:10:46 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:10:46 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025194709.GB3439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510251810v53ef5137j5750fcaceee6e367@mail.gmail.com> > > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, Plum > > > Com can take it or leave it. > > > > Not to mention that even if you had such information, it would quite > > likely be illegal under the Privacy Act to hand it over to another > > party without the express permission of the members. > > Sharp eye! Yes, it's illegal, and, I would think, not a good thing to > have in a legally binding contract. But, it is good starting point for > "re-negotiation" (which is happening). This thread has certainly re-opened several cans of worms. (Figuratively speaking) In an effort to avoid more adding fuel to the fire, I'll keep most of my thoughts safely here in my head, and just ask a question about incorporations and a remark/question about privacy... It is possible for an incorporated entity to *not* have a fixed mailing address? My (admittedly weak) knowledge of business tells me that there has to be some address to and from which communications with the powers-that-be (eg. gov't) take place, and that it would be required for any "business-like" entity (for-/non-profit, in-/corporated, etc). I do not see how a members' privacy could be affected by providing a mailing address in the negotiations between any "business-like" entity (agg, what's the correct term?) and any other. Giving the mailing address for GTALUG (if we had one) to Plumcorp, for contractual purposes, should not affect me as a member in any way. Does it? If I'm missing something here, I'd really like to know. (thx) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 01:26:24 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510251810v53ef5137j5750fcaceee6e367-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0510251810v53ef5137j5750fcaceee6e367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > > It is possible for an incorporated entity to *not* have a fixed > mailing address? My (admittedly weak) knowledge of business tells me > that there has to be some address to and from which communications > with the powers-that-be (eg. gov't) take place, and that it would be > required for any "business-like" entity (for-/non-profit, > in-/corporated, etc). A not-for-profit corporation must have a "Head office", the address of which is in the Letters Patent, and, I believe, in the public records. This can be changed, IIRC, by a special resolution of the Board, which must be ratified by the members in a general meeting. > I do not see how a members' privacy could be affected by providing a > mailing address in the negotiations between any "business-like" entity > (agg, what's the correct term?) and any other. Giving the mailing > address for GTALUG (if we had one) to Plumcorp, for contractual > purposes, should not affect me as a member in any way. Does it? If > I'm missing something here, I'd really like to know. (thx) I can't imagine Plumcorp doing it without a contact name and address, whether that is the "Head Office" or a member's address. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================== Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 02:02:06 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:02:06 -0400 Subject: On-topic... sorta Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510251902q52a34307h1c6f775812f3a0f@mail.gmail.com> The recent thread, and subsequent confusion, on *TLUG's involvement in Linux World / Network World 2006 reminds me very much of the ongoing battles for copyright, intellectual property, and control of the internet (DNS). No matter which perspective one looks from, the public has become a seething massive community. If you'd like to break that view down into disparate communities that's fine - just remember there's plenty o' cross-talk. ;-) F/loss, including Linux, has at it's very heart a truly important concept - one that a great many people are familiar with. Freedom. While I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts, I see this as very important - for all communities. DANIEL WEINTRAUB: U.N. moving to curb free expression "The rationale for this policy turns logic on its head. Canada's Heritage Minister Liza Frulla said her government's efforts are driven by an "unshakeable commitment" to protect and promote Canada's cultural diversity. But to Frulla, protecting cultural diversity seems to mean exposing her nation's people to less culture, not more. "We have to be able to identify ourselves as Canadians, to be able to present ourselves and to be able to sustain our creativity," Frulla said recently on the Canadian Broadcasting Co. "This is a fundamental right." Indeed, it is the fundamental right of any Canadian, or anybody anywhere, to present his or her culture and sustain his or her creativity. But governments have no right to step in and make those judgments on behalf of free people. Under such a policy, the Canadian who sees herself as a citizen of the world and wants to be exposed to as many different cultural expressions as possible, even American, is simply out of luck." http://www.modbee.com/24hour/opinions/story/2837286p-11494822c.html -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 02:19:33 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:19:33 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0510251810v53ef5137j5750fcaceee6e367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1130293173.4361.195.camel@holden.weait.net> Quotes from two different emails in this thread follow. I'll try to keep the attribution straight. Apples. On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 21:26, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, psema4 wrote: > > I do not see how a members' privacy could be affected by providing a > > mailing address in the negotiations between any "business-like" entity > > (agg, what's the correct term?) and any other. Giving the mailing > > address for GTALUG (if we had one) to Plumcorp, for contractual > > purposes, should not affect me as a member in any way. Does it? If > > I'm missing something here, I'd really like to know. (thx) > > I can't imagine Plumcorp doing it without a contact name and > address, whether that is the "Head Office" or a member's > address. Oranges. > > On October 23, 2005 18:01, William Park wrote: > > > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems > > > are 1. they want street address of TLUG members. > > > 2. they want no demoing of TLUG members' work or business. > > > > > > 1. This is easy. We have no street address to give out. So, > Plum > > > Com can take it or leave it. > > > > Not to mention that even if you had such information, it would quite > > likely be illegal under the Privacy Act to hand it over to another > > party without the express permission of the members. The Apples conversation is about the business address of GTALUG. The Oranges conversation is about the addresses of each of the LUG members. Looks like somebody is misinterpreting the conversation with Plum, one way or another. Can GTALUG trade LUG-member addresses away as part of a contract? I don't know, pay your lawyer to get an opinion. The applicable Canadian legislation might just be here (PIPEDA and The Privacy Act) http://www.privcom.gc.ca/legislation/02_06_01_e.asp at the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada. Many membership type web sites allow you select whether you want to share your contact info or not when you register. Not a lawyer. Not legal advice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 02:27:30 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:27:30 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <1130293173.4361.195.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0510251810v53ef5137j5750fcaceee6e367@mail.gmail.com> <1130293173.4361.195.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510251927i38f5e9a5s21cbf208245b7dbc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/05, interlug-list wrote: > Oranges. > > > > On October 23, 2005 18:01, William Park wrote: > > > > Speaking for myself (and few others outside GTALUG), my problems > > > > are 1. they want street address of TLUG members. For my part, I beleive I lost track of the details on point #1 during the conversation. My bad, and my apologies. Thx interlug. :-) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 02:33:56 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:33:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Perl syntax Question In-Reply-To: ; from josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 10:52:13AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20051025223356.B5201@diamond.ss.org> Left side is equal to the size of the 2-D hash. Assuming this is the content of and if () statement, then you are checking if the there is anything in the array. Bill On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 10:52:13AM -0400, Joseph Kubik wrote: > What does the following mean? > > ($#{$reg->{'sale'}{'items'}} == -1) > > As, in, What does $#{} really do? > > Thanks, > -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 03:13:31 2005 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051026031331.26418.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> --- "G. Matthew Rice" wrote: > > Hi Fernando, > > Great review of the symposium. The only comment > that I have is that the > symposium seems to be 'expanding' into > non-educational topics. Agree. Actually I didn't know that it was supposed to be about mainly about "education" until today ;-) so I guess I was in the "other interested parties" category. They just changed the web page and there are pics of the event (I'm even in one of them) Fernando __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 04:51:22 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:51:22 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025194709.GB3439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435F0B4A.9060907@telly.org> William Park wrote: >>People should not use the TLUG booth as a vehicle to advance their own commercial interests. >> > >Such simplistic statement betrays lack of experience and ignorance of reality. > > That's insulting, and itself indicates a massive gap between GTALUG's reality and the reality for the rest of us. First let me say that I completely agree with Clifford. Furthermore, I suggest that the experience card is one you _really_ don't want to play; I think you owe an apology to those who disagree with your viewpoint before you get badly embarassed. >1. Tradeshow is about business. People come to the show to do busines (both visitors and exhibitors). It would be helpful if everyone here reflect on that reality. > Unfortunately, such reflection reveals that the GTALUG "reality" appears itself forgetful (I'll resist for now the temptation to say ignorant) of a few critical details: 1) GTALUG as I understand it does not exist to do conventional business. It exists as a non-profit organization (which has special status in corporate law) because it exists, not to serve shareholders, but to serve the pubic good. That's why NPOs are not taxed. And, more importantly for the subject at hand, it's why NPOs are offered perks unavailable to for-profit companies such as free booths at tradeshows. Sure, there are non-profit associations such as CompTIA or BSA whose members exist to make money, but these orgs explicitly exist to create joint programs which serve common goals of their members. The _collective_ goals are what's important to these groups. And it is the collective goals alone that LinuxWorld reasonably is asking GTALUG to bring to its booth. 2) The tradeshow indeed itself is about business. The organizers make money by selling booth space to groups looking to sell goods and services, so that they can expose those goods and services to attendees who are potential buyers. GTALUG, by trying to obtain such a commercial-function booth for free under the guise of a social-purpose user group, could be accused of trying to get something for nothing. If regular-price exhibitors discover that GTALUG got a free ride but offers commerial functions in competition with them, they could stay away from future shows and cost the organizers real sales. 3) The LWE organizers have historically had a ".org pavillion" because they want to show off the grassroots nature of FOSS, the core that produces free and independent resources. They attract groups such as the FSF, KDE, EFF, LTSP, GNOME Foundation, Knoppix and others who help demonstrate the power and strength of those who put public awareness ahead of commercial gain. This attracts attendees and offers exposure to cash-strapped groups. The model has worked effectively for years, even in places such as Japan where the concept of the NPO isn't well understood. To have a GTALUG hosting commercial marketing is a perversion of the intent of the ".org pavillion", an intent which most other user groups (including CLUE in Canada, UKUUG in Britain and LiVE in Germany) have had no problems following. >2. Furthermore, it would be helpful if everyone recognizes that GTALUG has evolved and grown. We are still a gathering of Linux guys. We will get together to talk about Linux hardware/software, with or without GTALUG. But, GTALUG (formal entity) will pursue business opportunities, not as retail operation (which seems to be what has got everyone's panties up in knot), but as advocacy and education group. > > If only. What advocacy and education functions are planned for the LinuxWorld booth? Do the education functions compete with the private sector? So far all I've seen is a bitter fight for the right for individual member contultants to market themselves, even though such a function exists nowhere in the GTALUG Manifesto. If GTALUG wants to be at LinuxWorld to act as a hub for consultants peddling their services, go right ahead. But stop calling yourselves a user group, stay out of the .org area, and pay market rates for your booth. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 06:03:10 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:03:10 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025225838.41451.qmail-p6KvMhi7PWKB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051025225838.41451.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435F1C1E.5030302@telly.org> Colin McGregor wrote: >- Yes, there are debates as to how to handle a NewTLUG >meeting at the show, who should talk, how the talk >should be handled, etc.. > The issue was discussed at tonight's NewTLUG meeting and a consensus was reached. There will be a NewTLUG meeting April 25 at the show. We are neither requesting GTALUG's assistance nor asking its permission. >there seems to be a common view within the board that Evan is one of the last people GTALUG would want to act on behalf of GTALUG. > > Compliment accepted. You have my word that I do not now and have not ever passed myself off as having anything to do with GTALUG, let alone represent it. Any meetings I have with Plum are done as participant in (and co-founder of) NewTLUG, a director of CLUE, and a passionate member of the local community. When I meet with Plum it will be to represent what I believe to be the interests of the user community that I know; the one that wants to grow the local community and is quite fine with the "no individual work" provisions. It probably doesn't hurt that I, unlike GTALUG, have a long and successful track record of working not only with Plum but with all LinuxWorlds globally: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/mmg.cgi?eid=4824879 http://www.realworldlinuxbiz.com/artman/publish/lpi_idg.shtml The many booths I organized have never embarassed the show management. We always provided added value which benefitted us (as exhibitor), attendees and show management. And we did it by publicizing the _group's_ services, not those of members or sponsors. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 06:21:49 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:21:49 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051025200941.GA3494-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> <20051025200941.GA3494@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <435F207D.3040208@telly.org> William Park wrote: >If I sponsor GTALUG, am I a sponsor, a member, a board member, or all of >the above? > Since GTALUG doesn't post its bylaws publicly, the rest of us have no idea what its membership and sponsorship structure is. So I can't answer that accurately. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 07:34:26 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 03:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435F207D.3040208-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> <20051025200941.GA3494@node1.opengeometry.net> <435F207D.3040208@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William Park wrote: > >> If I sponsor GTALUG, am I a sponsor, a member, a board member, or all of >> the above? >> > Since GTALUG doesn't post its bylaws publicly, the rest of us have no > idea what its membership and sponsorship structure is. So I can't answer > that accurately. A few months ago, I was given a copy of the Letters Patent and the by-laws in order to enter them and post them on the GTALUG wiki. Before I got around to it, I reorganized my office and the folder disappeared. I have just found it, and will try to get the info posted in the next week or two. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================== Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 07:46:33 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 03:46:33 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <435C3810.9040702@telly.org> <20051024041455.GA1991@node1.opengeometry.net> <435C72FA.9060404@telly.org> <435CBBC9.5080009@pppoe.ca> <435CE376.8010408@telly.org> <435D7817.8050700@pppoe.ca> <435E6572.1080104@pppoe.ca> <435E7D9F.3070109@telly.org> <20051025200941.GA3494@node1.opengeometry.net> <435F207D.3040208@telly.org> Message-ID: <435F3459.1040401@telly.org> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > A few months ago, I was given a copy of the Letters Patent and > the by-laws in order to enter them and post them on the GTALUG wiki. > > Before I got around to it, I reorganized my office and the folder > disappeared. I have just found it, and will try to get the info > posted in the next week or two. OK, thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing it. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 13:12:27 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:12:27 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <435F0B4A.9060907-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 12:51:22AM -0400 References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> <435F0B4A.9060907@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051026091227.C5201@diamond.ss.org> The funny thing is that Evan is complaiing about the going ons of the 2003 Linux World, the one he and Matt were in charge of under CLUE, and the one that was Shanghied by these consultants. He is not complaining about the successful LinuxWorld presence of 2005 that GTALUG held. Also, no one seems to have mentioned the reasons of the stumbling blocks for the 2006 LinuxWorld presence. They are as follows: 1) Plum Communications wishes GTALUG to make available to a third party the snail mail addresses of its members for the purposes of sending advertising, 2) Plum communications requires us to cancel any educational program (which means the UofT and NewTlug meetings) prior too and after LinuxWorld. The time period around it would be 3 TLUG meetings, and 4 NewTlug meetings. Now I have met and spoken with Bruce in my official capacity as a board member (which I am no longer by the way), and I have specifically asked about the problems of 2003 and he didn't say anything about them to me. So this is entirely water under the bridge to him if it ever was a problem. Also the reason we were not at the 2004 Linux World was the opportunity wasn't communicated to the group of people that organize these things. Our presence at 2005 was due in part because I provided a list of names and contact emails as well as Colin contacting him directly last year this time on behalf of GTALUG. Now presently Colin has been asked by the board to negotiate with Plum Communications on the above issues. The first is simply non-negotiable to the board, GTALUG will not provide a mailing list. It is against the law, and violates the trust this group has provided. The second is also considered non-negotiable, since these meetings are the primary reason this groups exist and cancelling one quarter of the annual meetings is ridiculous. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 13:16:28 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:16:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question Message-ID: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Hi all, I wanted the opinion of fellow geeks so I hope it is okay that I am asking this on this list. :) I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will be doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and gals want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, something else? Thanks all! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 13:31:13 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:31:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>; from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 09:16:28AM -0400 References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051026093113.D5201@diamond.ss.org> Both of those are my most coveted give aways. Mugs I like because they are functional and any logo on them is okay. T-shirts are great too. I have no problem being a walking poster for your company when I get the poster for free. One of the worst things I got was a 8x6 picture frame. It was a nice frame, but the logos on it made it look tacky. Do you know who your audience is? Is it geeks or is it suits, or is it something in between. > For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, > something else? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 13:38:29 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <20051026093113.D5201-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> <20051026093113.D5201@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <36107.205.210.47.14.1130333909.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> Having worked for companies who offered such goodies during training sessions and seminars, I can tell you that the number one coveted item was always mugs, as mentioned earlier. Other popular items include keyrings, pens, and little desktop items such as clocks or mouse pads, but these have to work with optical mice nowadays. Fran?ois Ouellette > > Both of those are my most coveted give aways. Mugs I like because they are > functional and any logo on them is okay. > > T-shirts are great too. I have no problem being a walking poster for your > company when I get the poster for free. > > One of the worst things I got was a 8x6 picture frame. It was a nice > frame, but the logos on it made it look tacky. > > Do you know who your audience is? Is it geeks or is it suits, or is it > something in between. > >> For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, >> something else? >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 13:37:04 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:37:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <20051026093113.D5201-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> <20051026093113.D5201@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <435F8680.5070400@alteeve.com> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Both of those are my most coveted give aways. Mugs I like because they are functional and any logo on them is okay. > > T-shirts are great too. I have no problem being a walking poster for your company when I get the poster for free. > > One of the worst things I got was a 8x6 picture frame. It was a nice frame, but the logos on it made it look tacky. > > Do you know who your audience is? Is it geeks or is it suits, or is it something in between. Geeks. Linux geeks who would have any interest in backup software (home -> server rooms), specifically. Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:08:55 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:08:55 -0400 Subject: Living in Oakville. In-Reply-To: <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>; from tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org on Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 12:08:34AM -0400 References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051026100855.A9460@diamond.ss.org> One thing we are fostering is multiple meetings. Everyone knows that travel in this city is difficult. There is a group of people that meet in the west end. I have never been (because I live on the east end), but get a hold of William Park, opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org, he goes to the westlug meetings regularly. I believe Clifford is also a regular participant as well. There is also a Hamilton LUG and Hamilton Open Source UG that you may want to go to. Finally KWLUG also has meetings you may want to drop into. Bill On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 12:08:34AM -0400, ted leslie wrote: > I joined tlug at last years show. > I havnt been to a meeting, its just not convient (live in Oakville). > But I will join up again next year even if I don't go to a single meeting > in my first membership year, as I just see it as a donation to the cause. > BUT > if the meeting were at the show!! well I'd be there! > Can't speak to how many members are like me .. > but one might find a meeting at the show could be very well attended? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:22:35 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:22:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <435F912B.70500@pppoe.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I wanted the opinion of fellow geeks so I hope it is okay that I am > asking this on this list. :) > > I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will be > doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and gals > want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. > > For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, > something else? > > Thanks all! > > Madison > Have you decided on a logo for your backup program? A cool design will go a long way to your give-away being used more. I like baseball caps and T-shirts myself. They tend to be used more and are highly visible. I believe baseball caps are more expensive. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:32:45 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:32:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F912B.70500-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> <435F912B.70500@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435F938D.9060407@pppoe.ca> Meng Cheah wrote: > Have you decided on a logo for your backup program? > A cool design will go a long way to your give-away being used more. I forgot. The logo/design will be the initial impression (first impresions ...). Also you don't want to change this down the road. You'll have to live with this. Take your time for what you really want :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:52:44 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:52:44 -0400 Subject: Linux World / Network World 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051026091227.C5201-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <435B2392.8070500@telly.org> <20051023220101.GA2896@node1.opengeometry.net> <200510242305.22498.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051025194709.GB3439@node1.opengeometry.net> <435F0B4A.9060907@telly.org> <20051026091227.C5201@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <435F983C.90605@telly.org> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >The funny thing is that Evan is complaiing about the going ons of the 2003 Linux World, the one he and Matt were in charge of under CLUE, and the one that was Shanghied by these consultants. > > Well, I do admit that CLUE did the paperwork for the TLUG booth then. I also recall that I was involved with multiple booths that year; I guess it was too much to ask to let TLUG group operate a booth without parenting. >1) Plum Communications wishes GTALUG to make available to a third party the snail mail addresses of its members for the purposes of sending advertising, > > Non-issue, since as was correctly stated this violates privacy issues; they can't make you break the law. The best way to handle this is to allow an opt-in "mail me stuff" option for members, but that's not a tradeshow matter. This is not a deal breaker for PLUM. They just want to do the most possible to get TLUG members out to the show. >2) Plum communications requires us to cancel any educational program (which means the UofT and NewTlug meetings) prior too and after LinuxWorld. The time period around it would be 3 TLUG meetings, and 4 NewTlug meetings [...skip...] [this clause is] considered non-negotiable, since these meetings are the primary reason this groups exist and cancelling one quarter of the annual meetings is ridiculous. > The #2 objection given by William wasn't this one, it was the issue that prohibited individual members from promoting their work or business. Since that issue has now been appropriately deconstructed, let's move on to this new one. This complaint is the result of a misinterpretation of two clauses in the criteria for non-profit orgs wanting booths. One clause states: "You may not promote any other event(s) deemed competitive to LinuxWorld or NetworkWorld events" A quick email or phone call would have clarified whether a LUG meeting is "deemed competitive to LinuxWorld". Has such clarification been obtained? I think it already has -- see below. The other clause states: "We request that the association does not hold a Linux specific or network technology specific education event featuring any of the confirmed presenters at LWNW 30 days prior and 30 days post the LWNW 2006 event" That just means that you can't have any of the LinuxWorld conference speakers as presenters for a month before or after the show. It doesn't prohibit meetings. Even so, the unique use here of "we request" indicates that this is not a firm demand, and that the invitation of specific speakers is probably negotiable. To further demonstrate the foolishness of interpreting these clauses to mean "cancelling LUG meetings", let's go back to Colin's original message that started this thread: >One of the questions that the show organizers have raised can be boiled down to "What about shifting the April GTALUG and NewTLUG meetings to the show?". The show organizers would be happy to supply some free evening conference rooms, and provide some AV equipment. > It doesn't sound to me at all as if Plum has a problem with LUG meetings or considers them competitive. They even want to host some! Problem solved. Let's hear the next objection. - Evan PS: I have the actual document from Plum that's causing all the fuss at GTALUG, which is how I can use exact quotes above. I was going to attach the document to this email, but figured that not everyone wants 500K extra in their mailbox for a simple four-page PDF document of limited interest. Anyone who wants a copy is welcome to email me and ask for it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:55:26 2005 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:55:26 +0000 Subject: Marketing Message-ID: <1130338526.9153.12.camel@localhost> A question you should ask yourself / company is where do you want your logo displayed as a result of the marketing effort? In an office setting? casually on the street? etc. A mug is more likely to be visible in an office setting than say a T Shirt and small items like pens / keychains might be hidden away in pockets / desk drawers and not get seen at all. The most important thing is that you want your logo to be seen by as many potential buyers as possible, so you should pick your marketing aids on that criteria, rather than what we want. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:53:13 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:53:13 -0400 Subject: Other LUGs In-Reply-To: <20051026100855.A9460-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051026100855.A9460@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <1130338393.12495.48.camel@holden.weait.net> On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 10:08, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > One thing we are fostering is multiple meetings. [ ... ] > > There is also a Hamilton LUG and Hamilton Open Source UG that you may > want to go to. Finally KWLUG also has meetings you may want to drop > into. Thanks Bill. I enjoy visiting LUGs in different locations, even if the some of the topics get repeated. In the last year, or so I've been to 3 LUGs in 2 states, and 6 in Ontario. Even though I've seen three MythTV presentations this year, the three different presenters made it fun. KWLUG has had visits from some TLUG regulars in the last few months. You are all welcome to drop in as often as you please. http://www.kwlug.org/ If you are stuck in KW on business, why not come to the LUG before you fight your way through traffic to get back to TO? Meeting dates for the three groups Bill mentioned above can be found here: http://www.cambridgelug.org/phpicalendar/ ,or on the official LUG web sites. Only the kwlug information is officially maintained. Get your LUG added to this combined calendar by: 1) publishing your meeting information in ical format (Sunbird / Mozilla work great!) 2) post the file somewhere and send me the link. 3) keep your LUG calendar up to date. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:06:18 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:06:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F938D.9060407-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> <435F912B.70500@pppoe.ca> <435F938D.9060407@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <435F9B6A.4070008@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > >> Have you decided on a logo for your backup program? >> A cool design will go a long way to your give-away being used more. > > > I forgot. The logo/design will be the initial impression (first > impresions ...). Also you don't want to change this down the road. > You'll have to live with this. LPI did three different runs of golf shirts. The first run didn't even have the logo or right colours -- we hadn't held the contest yet -- it just had the name and website. But those original shirts were (and are) still cherished and worn by those who received them. How many old-time TLUGgers who chipped in to buy "Team Linux" hockey shirts (many years back, as a "uniform" for one of the first TLUG tradeshow booths) have thrown theirs out because the logo on the front is not in common use? Having a good logo is nice but shouldn't impede your development timetable or release schedule. Getting the word out, and having good word-of-mouth, is usually better than waiting for the perfect logo. If the product is really good, a bad logo won't really hurt it, but a truly memorable logo (pretty rare these days) can help. As for the original question -- IMO t-shirts and caps are good standbys, but mugs and bottle openers can be just as desirable and are usually cheaper. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:04:55 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:04:55 -0400 Subject: Marketing In-Reply-To: <1130338526.9153.12.camel@localhost> References: <1130338526.9153.12.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <435F9B17.60909@alteeve.com> John McGregor wrote: > A question you should ask yourself / company is where do you want your > logo displayed as a result of the marketing effort? In an office > setting? casually on the street? etc. A mug is more likely to be visible > in an office setting than say a T Shirt and small items like pens / > keychains might be hidden away in pockets / desk drawers and not get > seen at all. The most important thing is that you want your logo to be > seen by as many potential buyers as possible, so you should pick your > marketing aids on that criteria, rather than what we want. Good points. So far I am leaning towards mugs. I want the logo to be seen in an office environment, first and foremost. Specifically, I want other geeks to see it. Madison PS - Thanks again for the Mandriva disks. TLE-BU now installs/runs on Mandriva just fine. :) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:21:23 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:21:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20051026152123.GA4196@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 09:16:28AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will >be doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and >gals want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. > > For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, >something else? A pen or mechanical pencil (a personal favourite) that doesn't suck will get used. With USB keys coming down in price there may be an opportunity get smallish capacity USB keys branded - then throw your software on it, and you've got a good giveaway. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:36:38 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <20051026152123.GA4196-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> <20051026152123.GA4196@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I agree with all of the previous, with the exception of hats... some people don't wear them ever, so it might be a waste. Also, for shirts, keep in mind that one size does not fit all... geeks. Like hats, if someone cannot get the right size, it may be wasted. If you can guarantee enough sizes, then it's OK. The most worn shirts should have an embroidered logo on it, and be either a Golf or T- style. They last longer and look better (which is key for good marketing). :-) Mugs, keychains and pens/pencils are good and relatively inexpensive, but you should make sure they are good quality or they will just find their way to a landfill quickly. These items can potentially get the most "advertising time" as they are likely to used every day if the person chooses them. However mugs (and usually pens/pencils) usually stay in one place (home or office), whereas keychains and shirts will move to new territory. Something else to consider... :-) HTH! -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:39:57 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:39:57 -0400 Subject: Other LUGs In-Reply-To: <1130338393.12495.48.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051026100855.A9460@diamond.ss.org> <1130338393.12495.48.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, interlug-list wrote: > > I enjoy visiting LUGs in different locations, even if the some of the > topics get repeated. In the last year, or so I've been to 3 LUGs in 2 > states, and 6 in Ontario. Even though I've seen three MythTV > presentations this year, the three different presenters made it fun. > > KWLUG has had visits from some TLUG regulars in the last few months. > You are all welcome to drop in as often as you please. > http://www.kwlug.org/ If you are stuck in KW on business, why not come > to the LUG before you fight your way through traffic to get back to TO? > > Meeting dates for the three groups Bill mentioned above can be found > here: http://www.cambridgelug.org/phpicalendar/ ,or on the official LUG > web sites. Only the kwlug information is officially maintained. Get > your LUG added to this combined calendar by: > > 1) publishing your meeting information in ical format (Sunbird / Mozilla > work great!) > 2) post the file somewhere and send me the link. > 3) keep your LUG calendar up to date. Thank you for this info! -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:41:32 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 26 Oct 2005 11:41:32 -0400 Subject: Seneca's FOSS symposium write-up In-Reply-To: References: <20051025201415.38068.qmail@web60120.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tony Abou-Assaleh writes: > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > > That said, I'd definitely recommend the symposium for anyone on the list > > if/when it happens next year. And a great value for $20 (I even received > > two t-shirts :) > > I didn't get any. They said they were out. You owe me one! :O) You should have come to the hive for the free beer :) They had a box of about 10-15 XXL sizes left over. If it fits you, you can have one. TTYL, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:08:57 2005 From: ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org (Raymond J. Payne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:08:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question Message-ID: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027773B@jack.pcrepairs.com> I think in order my preference is good quality shirts, mugs, pens, cheap shirts. In realistic terms I think vendors get the most advertising from me for the buck with mugs though. I know from talking to one of the presenters for Sun that the golf shirts cost them about $70 each with the logo. Cheap shirts typically get the reaction of being cool when people get them but are viewed as ugly more often than not after the fact. I have dozens of t-shirts from seminars and vendors that my wife cringes at if I wear them when we'll see anyone we know. Most vendors I deal with have some sort of token they give with quotes and purchases. Quality of the pen really matters. The pens I've been given from Dell 6 years ago are still in great shape with daily use. Microsoft gives away pens at the TechNet sessions that are lucky to survive more than a month. Mugs sit on my desk at the office and since I have a caffeine addiction get high visibility by everyone in the company on a daily basis. Not many places seem to give mugs as well, so there is much less chance of your mug being stored in a cupboard somewhere and never being seen. Bit of a long rant, but I apparently have too much time on my hands this morning. :) Ray -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Madison Kelly Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:16 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Marketting question Hi all, I wanted the opinion of fellow geeks so I hope it is okay that I am asking this on this list. :) I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will be doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and gals want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, something else? Thanks all! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:01:04 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:01:04 -0400 Subject: Living in Oakville. In-Reply-To: <20051026100855.A9460-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051026100855.A9460@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > There is also a Hamilton LUG and Hamilton Open Source UG that you may want > to go to. Finally KWLUG also has meetings you may want to drop into. On the GTALUG wiki, there is a page (easily findable from the front page) that lists various meetings around Toronto; ought to get extended... http://gtalug.org/wiki/Other_Opensource_Computing_groups The KWLUG web site also has a useful list of regional LUGs http://www.kwlug.org/regional.php -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:18:39 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:21:12 -0400 | From: Alex Beamish | On 10/12/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: | > Hmm, I underestimated the age of basic it would seem. I thought it was | > from the 70s some time. Wikipedia says BASIC was invented in 1963, but some others say 1964. BASIC at Dartmouth was pretty revolutionary. Dartmouth decided that all students should learn to program and BASIC was the vehicle. Remember: this was before most Universities had Comp Sci programs. This was about 10 years before before time sharing was common. | Of course, my Dad got me addicted by showing my little bits of APL code, and | by road-testing an IBM 'portable' called the 5100 that did both APL and | BASIC. It was called a portable because .. it had a handle. That unit | weighed 50-60 pounds, and would only have fit on Andre the Giant's lap. That too was an amazing machine. The APL was written for the IBM System/360 (the standard mainframe from IBM). The 5100 contained an emulator for large parts of the 360 so it could run that APL. Quite a tour de force. There was a slightly earlier APL machine built in Canada. The York University computer museum has a display. They have held talks by the some of the original folks: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/museum/collections/MCM/MCM.htm Their APL was native on the 8008 (not even an 8080). Also a tour de force. BTW, Peter Salus is speaking there on Friday November 4: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/seminars/abstracts/salus.txt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:26:41 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:26:41 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027773B-CLNy6lqpgzNGTIAK+MOlGtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027773B@jack.pcrepairs.com> Message-ID: http://www.zazzle.com/design/ http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ should allow you to order your own 'test run' etc. I have not used it , and am not affiliated with them, and there is another place I cannot find now, where you can make your own mugs etc. I see it as a low risk way to 'beta test' promo articles. These sites also seem to know 'what goes' in terms of gift articles (this is their business after all). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:35:22 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <20051003171328.GA7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051004213334.GA31863@waltdnes.org> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4352A98D.4080106@interlog.com> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | On 10/16/05, Kevin Cozens wrote: | > A friend of mine knew SNOBOL. I also remember (related?) languages SPITBOL, | > WATBOL, and I think there were a few other 'BOL' languages around when I used | > to hang out at the Engineering Annex at UofT. Watbol was U of W's COBOL compiler. Not at all related to SNOBOL. | Something I have heard claimed (I do not recall where) is that the | Unix I/O capabilities were essentially derived from the file | manipulation API of SNOBOL. Not that I've noticed. Culturally, this might be the case -- SNOBOL was developed at Bell Labs. By SNOBOL IV (I think) Griswold had moved to U of Arizona. He designed a successor language, Icon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNOBOL | It was dying and getting unavailable when I was in university, so I | wound up not being particularly exposed to it. It's obviously still | available... People loved SNOBOL the way others loved APL, LISP, and PERL. It was a very functional universe that helped you get stuff done on otherwise ponderous machines. SPITBOL was a very impressive compiled implementation. Although folks think they love a language, much of the experience relates to the implementation. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:33:58 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:33:58 -0400 Subject: In defence of C (was:Re:Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)?) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:21:12 -0400 > | From: Alex Beamish > | Of course, my Dad got me addicted by showing my little bits of APL code, > and > | by road-testing an IBM 'portable' called the 5100 that did both APL and > | BASIC. It was called a portable because .. it had a handle. That unit > | weighed 50-60 pounds, and would only have fit on Andre the Giant's lap. I've been corrected .. that term should be 'luggable', not 'portable'. That too was an amazing machine. The APL was written for the IBM > System/360 (the standard mainframe from IBM). The 5100 contained an > emulator for large parts of the 360 so it could run that APL. Quite a > tour de force. Ah, I didn't know that -- very interesting, but it makes sense. I do know that my Dad took a sabbatical from the Actuarial division to work in Data Processing for a couple of years, coding COBOL and assembler on the IBM 360. The IBM office in Montreal was down the street from where they were at University (now Rene Levesque, I think) and Dorchester, and the IBM guys would come by to service the machine pretty regularly. >From what I remember of APL, it was seriously terse -- someone described it as "Chicken scratches crossed with Greek." Having developed in Perl for a couple of years, I would say APL makes Perl look like BASIC. And my Dad still has APL on his Windows 98 workstation, and tinkers around with it when he gets the urge. Some stuff you never forget. Alex -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:44:11 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:44:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: References: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027773B@jack.pcrepairs.com> Message-ID: <1130348651.12495.117.camel@holden.weait.net> On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 14:26, Peter wrote: > http://www.zazzle.com/design/ > http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ I was disappointed by the "iron-on" appearance of Cafe Press shirts. The Cafe Press mugs are not bad. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:47:38 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Canadian academia and open source In-Reply-To: <20051019184523.GA5265-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <43548E2B.2010506@telly.org> <20051019184523.GA5265@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I know some engineering courses at Waterloo now use C# for reasons I | can't imagine other than some deal with MicroSoft. Did you miss this scandal? http://archive.uwstudent.org/story/10136 http://archive.uwstudent.org/story/10626 http://www.information.uwaterloo.ca/Gazette/2002/sep04/microsoft.html http://www.bulletin.uwaterloo.ca/2002/sep/13fr.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:59:24 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:59:24 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <435FC3FC.60303@telly.org> Alex Beamish wrote: > From what I remember of APL, it was seriously terse -- someone > described it as "Chicken scratches crossed with Greek." Having > developed in Perl for a couple of years, I would say APL makes Perl > look like BASIC. During the brief time I worked with APL, the interface was a converted IBM selectric typewriter with a special "golf ball" and keyboard overlay to produce the chicken scratches. Alex is right about the terseness; I recall that programs were rarely more than 60 characters long. You'd type the handful of characters on the typewriter, hit enter, and stand back as reams of output spewed out. I would say that APL makes Perl look like COBOL. The best thing about APL to me was its acronym. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:59:30 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:59:30 -0400 Subject: Cafe Press Swag (was Marketing ideas) Message-ID: On 10/26/05, interlug-list wrote: > On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 14:26, Peter wrote: > > http://www.zazzle.com/design/ > > http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ > > I was disappointed by the "iron-on" appearance of Cafe Press shirts. > The Cafe Press mugs are not bad. What slays people is the thought of Cafe Press thongs... Not the "wear on feet" variety... And no, I doubt that giving out thongs would work out well :-) -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:14:01 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:14:01 -0400 Subject: Cool marketing swag Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Peter wrote: > http://www.zazzle.com/design/ > http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ Interesting items that I don't think have been mentioned would include: - Refrigerator magnets (I can stick those to desks, so they can be OK for work) - Oval stickers (simulating the country indicators often seen on cars) - Mouse pads They're mighty expensive, unfortunately. Producing "quantity of 1" is not cheap :-(. It's probably also worth looking at: http://www.branders.com/ http://www.dwbcanada.com/ Some additional options that pop up there include: - stress balls - backpacks - journal with "prestige cover" - how about adding a back page with your software's options??? - notepads - lanyards, badge holders (e.g. - for carrying ID cards that you wear around the office) - 64MB flash drives (with a copy of your software/whitepapers) -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:20:55 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:20:55 -0400 Subject: Cool marketing swag In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435FC907.5030906@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >It's probably also worth looking at: >http://www.branders.com/ >http://www.dwbcanada.com/ > > Also there's a company called NEBS, most thought of for custom cheque printing, but they also now are into logo'd promotional products: http://www.nebs.com/nebsEcat/products/categories/clothing.jsp http://www.nebs.com/nebsEcat/products/categories/prmtnl.jsp http://www.nebs.com/nebsEcat/products/categories/marketing_promotion.jsp And even Mark's Work Warehouse is into the biz: http://www.imagewear.ca/ - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:43:37 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:43:37 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <1130348651.12495.117.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027773B@jack.pcrepairs.com> <1130348651.12495.117.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, interlug-list wrote: > On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 14:26, Peter wrote: >> http://www.zazzle.com/design/ >> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ > > I was disappointed by the "iron-on" appearance of Cafe Press shirts. > The Cafe Press mugs are not bad. There is a place that allows you to dyi a design with puff-up paint (and fluorescent too). There are many places like this on the Internet. Search and you will find. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:40:08 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:40:08 -0400 Subject: Cool marketing swag In-Reply-To: <435FC907.5030906-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <435FC907.5030906@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > And even Mark's Work Warehouse is into the biz: > http://www.imagewear.ca/ Cool. Nomex fire retardant coveralls; chef's hats; nitrile rubber boots :-). Some sensible items, too... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:48:04 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:48:04 +0200 (IST) Subject: Cool marketing swag In-Reply-To: References: <435FC907.5030906@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Christopher Browne wrote: > Cool. Nomex fire retardant coveralls; chef's hats; nitrile rubber boots :-). Well imho *someone* has to print the coveralls of the guys working at the gas station/car dealership etc you know ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:49:59 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:49:59 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: <435FC3FC.60303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <435FC3FC.60303@telly.org> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Alex Beamish wrote: > > > From what I remember of APL, it was seriously terse -- someone > > described it as "Chicken scratches crossed with Greek." Having > > developed in Perl for a couple of years, I would say APL makes Perl > > look like BASIC. > > During the brief time I worked with APL, the interface was a converted > IBM selectric typewriter with a special "golf ball" and keyboard overlay > to produce the chicken scratches. > > Alex is right about the terseness; I recall that programs were rarely > more than 60 characters long. You'd type the handful of characters on > the typewriter, hit enter, and stand back as reams of output spewed out. > I would say that APL makes Perl look like COBOL. > > The best thing about APL to me was its acronym. Definitely -- A Programming Language. It's almost the beginning of a nerd-speak Abbott and Costello routine .. Abbott: This language, what's it called? Costello: It's A Programming Language. A: Right, that what it is, but what's it called? C: But .. And the life insurance package from IBM (COBOL and 360 assembler) that my Dad worked on and modified for his employer, Prudential Assurance? It was called ALIS, short for (of course) A Life Insurance System. The modified version was PRALIS, of course. My mother often joked that ALIS (pronounced 'Alice') was The Other Wwoman. Well, he did sometimes get late night calls from downtown .. -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:52:21 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:52:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > I wanted the opinion of fellow geeks so I hope it is okay that I am > asking this on this list. :) > > I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will > be doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and > gals want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. > > For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a mug, > something else? Definitely mugs -- they can be used in any setting, one size fits all, and they last for a long time. Second choice would be wearable stuff -- ball caps and gof shirts. Alex -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ndavey3-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 14:19:30 2005 From: ndavey3-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Nick Davey) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:19:30 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <75E5E260-3CEE-4377-B75D-70C85900C97C@cogeco.ca> Coffee mugs! Although it may be done a lot if you put a url on it, I guarantee someone will go look at it while they're avoiding work first thing in the morning. On 26-Oct-05, at 9:16 AM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I wanted the opinion of fellow geeks so I hope it is okay that I > am asking this on this list. :) > > I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I > will be doing on my program (the backup program). What would you > guys and gals want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. > > For example, would you most likely hang onto/use a T-shirt, a > mug, something else? > > Thanks all! > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up > Main project page: http://tle-bu.org > Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 > Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:31:03 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 26 Oct 2005 15:31:03 -0400 Subject: Living in Oakville. In-Reply-To: References: <20051017205532.14133.qmail@web88201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051018000834.64fadc9a.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051026100855.A9460@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: Christopher Browne writes: > The KWLUG web site also has a useful list of regional LUGs > http://www.kwlug.org/regional.php I think that the most complete list that I know of is at: http://www.linux.ca/library/linux/lug.shtml 27 listings in Ontario alone. Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:27:38 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:27:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? Message-ID: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Wow, I was not expecting so much feedback, thank you! So then, coffee mugs it is! The next question is what to put on it. I have a basic logo (if you go to the TLE-BU main page you can see it in the top left) but I need a catchy phrase. Anyone here creative and willing to help me out with this? I was thinking something along the lines of: "A good backup will keep you from needing this mug late at night." Though I think that kinda isn't so good (I am many things, but creative is not one of them!) :p. Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:52:24 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:52:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <435FD8AA.2020609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Wow, I was not expecting so much feedback, thank you! > > So then, coffee mugs it is! > > The next question is what to put on it. I have a basic logo (if you > go to the TLE-BU main page you can see it in the top left) but I need a > catchy phrase. Anyone here creative and willing to help me out with this? You could probably come up with a Top Ten list of things to put on the mug .. 10. You deleted what? 9. Backups: good for what fails you 8. When it's absolutely, positively got to be there 7. Avoid the queasy feeling of too much coffee .. do your backups! 6. A backup a day keeps the pink slip away 5. You still needed those files? 4. Visualize World Peace .. and good backups 3. I'm smiling because I Have A Backup 2. Your files are safe .. now fill this mug up 1. What, me worry? I have backups! Alex just a copywriter in a developer's body -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:56:21 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cafe Press Swag (was Marketing ideas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051026195621.97153.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Browne wrote: > On 10/26/05, interlug-list > wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 14:26, Peter wrote: > > > http://www.zazzle.com/design/ > > > http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/ > > > > I was disappointed by the "iron-on" appearance of > Cafe Press shirts. > > The Cafe Press mugs are not bad. > > What slays people is the thought of Cafe Press > thongs... Not the "wear on feet" variety... And > no, I doubt that giving out thongs would work out > well :-) Well, I have a bottom of the line Badge-A-Minit button press (http://www.badgeaminit.com), which works fairly well, as long as one is willing to apply a LOT of preasure during the button making process (after about 10 buttons my hands start to feel like rubber). Assuming one does a large enough volume the cost per button can be under $0.25/button. Now, maybe I am a bit jaded, but I figure most people will grab a button at a trade show, say "That's cute!", drop in a swag collecting bag, and then it will almost never be seen again... What does excite me more as a swag item is the likes of case badges, such as : http://www.scotgold.com/ . A few years ago I bought 20 badges from the above firm, kept a few for myself and then sold the rest to other TLUG members. Still gives me a (small) kick to see a little Tux on the front of my PC clone :-) . That is what I would want as a cheap swag item from a trade show (granted USB memory keys, and light-up pens are also very cool swag items, but a little pricy...). As for T-shirts, about the only time I wear T-Shirts is when I am doing some @#$% job like sanding or painting (i.e. jobs where I know my clothes may be damaged, and I want clothes that I don't care about). In other words, while I will grab swag T-shirts they are not a priority... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 20:11:18 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:11:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <435FE2E6.5070507@alteeve.com> Alex Beamish wrote: > You could probably come up with a Top Ten list of things to put on the > mug .. > > 9. Backups: good for what fails you > 7. Avoid the queasy feeling of too much coffee .. do your backups! > 6. A backup a day keeps the pink slip away > 5. You still needed those files? > 2. Your files are safe .. now fill this mug up That's a great idea! So far those five I like a lot. :) Anyone else? I think Alex is on to something. Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU, The Linux Experience; Back Up Main project page: http://tle-bu.org Mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=120632 Community Forum: http://tle-bu.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 20:26:04 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <435FD8AA.2020609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <24941.205.210.47.14.1130358364.squirrel@webmail.look.ca> > Wow, I was not expecting so much feedback, thank you! > > So then, coffee mugs it is! > > The next question is what to put on it. I have a basic logo (if you > go to the TLE-BU main page you can see it in the top left) but I need a > catchy phrase. Anyone here creative and willing to help me out with this? > > I was thinking something along the lines of: > > "A good backup will keep you from needing this mug late at night." > > Though I think that kinda isn't so good (I am many things, but > creative is not one of them!) :p. > > Madison how abput: "PUT A HANDLE ON YOUR DATA" or "I'M NO MUG, I BACKUP MY DATA" Fran?ois Ouellette "If you want creative workers, give them enough time to play." -- JOHN CLEESE -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Robert.Boctor-5jPdWwX6g8k at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 21:00:27 2005 From: Robert.Boctor-5jPdWwX6g8k at public.gmane.org (Boctor,Robert [Ontario]) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:00:27 -0400 Subject: The history of the world: part 1 (was Re:Re: In defence of C) Message-ID: <9B09D75DF5B3494BA06E6FE478CE9CC13C6F51@mgtserver3.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Are we able to have a similar one for "History of Linux Distributions"? Other people have asked this question. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of G. Matthew Rice Sent: October 14, 2005 10:27 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: The history of the world: part 1 (was Re: [TLUG]: Re: In defence of C) pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org writes: > Can't vouch for accuracy, but there is a nice timeline at: > http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#02 There's a prettier version at: http://www.oreilly.com/news/languageposter_0504.html And if you ever see ORA at a conference, try to grab their poster of it. It's very nice. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 22:21:36 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:21:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <435FE2E6.5070507-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> <435FE2E6.5070507@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43600170.3040207@sympatico.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > > Anyone else? I think Alex is on to something. Don't forget that a backup is worth nothing; it's the *restore* that people rely on. Coffee's a good restorative ('less you drink decaf, urkh), so you could work on that ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 00:24:50 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:24:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <43600170.3040207-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> <435FE2E6.5070507@alteeve.com> <43600170.3040207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > Madison Kelly wrote: > > > > Anyone else? I think Alex is on to something. > > Don't forget that a backup is worth nothing; it's the *restore* that > people rely on. Coffee's a good restorative ('less you drink decaf, > urkh), so you could work on that ... Quite right -- and I'm sure we've all heard the customer service story where the support person determines some crucial files need to be restored from backup .. Service Tech: OK, we'll need to get the backup tape and put it in the drive .. Worried Customer: OK, I know I have it around here somewhere .. oh, here it is ST: OK, put it into the drive, and we'll have those files restored pronto WC: Just a minute, it's a bit tricky to unwrap the plastic .. ST: Unwrap the .. oh. Never mind. WC: OK, the tape's in the drive. Now what? An automated backup system would be a lifesaver, especially for the folks that don't really get the difference between full and incremental backups. Alex -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 01:27:05 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:27:05 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> <435FE2E6.5070507@alteeve.com> <43600170.3040207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510261827j702866f7h5a71ce630377eae2@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/05, Alex Beamish wrote: > Service Tech: OK, we'll need to get the backup tape and put it in the > drive .. > Worried Customer: OK, I know I have it around here somewhere .. oh, here > it is > ST: OK, put it into the drive, and we'll have those files restored pronto > WC: Just a minute, it's a bit tricky to unwrap the plastic .. > ST: Unwrap the .. oh. Never mind. > WC: OK, the tape's in the drive. Now what? > > An automated backup system would be a lifesaver, especially for the folks > that don't really get the difference between full and incremental backups. Lol. And particularly so for those don't remove the plastic from their backup tapes. My brain is completely non-functional at the moment, so I can't add any ideas... But I would like to put a request in for a mug with "A backup a day keeps the pink slip away" :-) My employer is running off a simple bash-based backup script I did a couple years ago... I'd really like to replace it with something more robust, when time permits. TLE-BU is first on my list to try out - and preferably before my script fails and that pink slip comes in! -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 01:36:31 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:36:31 -0400 Subject: Anybody else tried FreeBasic (aka fbc)? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0510021058u34ffb60dg1e2c20e40a81c03c@mail.gmail.com> <20051005135305.GL7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051012202804.GB1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4352A98D.4080106@interlog.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510261836l3bcc6d12nd82aea61a3aba4ae@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > People loved SNOBOL the way others loved APL, LISP, and PERL. It was > a very functional universe that helped you get stuff done on otherwise > ponderous machines. SPITBOL was a very impressive compiled > implementation. Although folks think they love a language, much of > the experience relates to the implementation. Indeed. I tried Perl the first couple of times under Windows, but just couldn't take it. Then I discovered linux and found I couldn't live without perl. It was an interesting development for me, to see how much the implementation (in this context, the underlying platform) made a difference. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 01:48:09 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:48:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <435FD8AA.2020609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: BACKUP OR DIE! -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 01:59:10 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:59:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <43600170.3040207-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> <435FE2E6.5070507@alteeve.com> <43600170.3040207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > Don't forget that a backup is worth nothing; it's the *restore* that > people rely on. Coffee's a good restorative ('less you drink decaf, > urkh), so you could work on that ... If you can print something on both sides: FRONT: BACKUP! BACK: RESTORE. Get the theme? Heh heh :-) Now "front" and "back" sides are open to discussion (maybe a vote)... right-handed or left-handed?? ;-> Maybe put your logo on the space between front and back (opposite to the handle)... that would be pretty unique. Good luck! -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 02:52:03 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:52:03 -0400 Subject: The history of the world: part 1 (was Re:Re: In defence of C) In-Reply-To: <9B09D75DF5B3494BA06E6FE478CE9CC13C6F51-81Rao0EPIKUqZXYuObZMGfhOVbL040d9ZDiLNKRngyQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9B09D75DF5B3494BA06E6FE478CE9CC13C6F51@mgtserver3.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510261952r25d19821q23a15b540bc966fd@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/05, Boctor,Robert [Ontario] wrote: > Are we able to have a similar one for "History of Linux Distributions"? > Other people have asked this question. Though this certainly doesn't mean that one does not currently exist, I've been unable to locate a visual timeline for the releases of various Linux Distributions. Resources that I'm aware of, at the moment, are primarily: - Kernel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Linux_development - Everything else: http://lwn.net/Articles/Timeline2004/ (links to prior years also available) I might suggest to the community that converting the textual timelines to a visual one might make a decent, and useful project if it has not been previously done. I would offer to lead such a project were I not already buried with tasks: Requests such as this offer the chance for us, as a community, to do something for others. A natural by-product is the enhancement of mind-share between LUG's, Industry, and Government. I am certain this is only going to become increasingly important in the years ahead. To hopefully add a little more incentive, laminated copies of a visual timeline might even make decent LUG-swag. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 03:50:20 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto Message-ID: Hi guys, A couple months ago, when I still didn't knew about TLUG, I started a petition [1] on my weblog to get Jeff Waugh into Toronto during the Badger Badger Badger Tour: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadgerBadgerBadgerTour Now the schedule of the tour has been set and I'm pleasured to host Jeff Waugh in Toronto on Monday, November 07. Currently, I'm in the process of booking a room, and will arrange his talk most probably for Nov 07, 7PM in Bahen, 40 St George St. The room number is not available yet, but it will be one of the auditoriums on the main floor, and I will put signs on the presentation day. Unfortunately Jeff's schedule is tight, and talk cannot be scheduled for Tuesday Nov 08 which is the TLUG meeting. So, what do you guys think? Any way TLUG can help with organizing, etc? [1] http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/09/torontonians-we-need-your-help.html Cheers, --behdad http://behdad.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 04:16:12 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:16:12 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> Several things have me up in arms right now, so I apologize if my tact is that of a bulldozer. I am nothing if not passionate. Rememberance Day is just over 2 weeks from now. On November 11th, for myself, I will add an additional minute to also remember those who have made our modern form of society possible. I believe it brings honour to those who gave far more than I have. So that we could be free. (If you feel the same, please feel free to distribute.) There are so many communities in the world today that exist because of, and are entirely based on, the strength of volunteers. You and I. I believe it is an honourable thing for a citizen to volunteer, and we all do it in our own way. Many have become comfortable with this, and many are learning to. To paraphrase some lines in the movie Pearl Harbour: Officer 1: Do you know what makes me think we'll win this war? Officer 2: No. Officer 1: (points to a pair of young pilots) Them; There is nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer. I think it is good for everyone, myself included, to be reminded that we do good unto the world by sharing our ideas, knowledge, and wisdom such as we can. We do that in large part, I think, because of lessons the entire world had to learn the hard way. Twice. My apologies to those who might see my message as preaching to choirs, but we live in volatile times. I needed to be reminded. Maybe it'll help someone else too. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 04:25:42 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:25:42 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am more likely to come on a Monday than any other day, since I don't lecture on Mondays. If I can help with anything from STC, lemme know. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi guys, > > A couple months ago, when I still didn't knew about TLUG, I > started a petition [1] on my weblog to get Jeff Waugh into > Toronto during the Badger Badger Badger Tour: > > http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadgerBadgerBadgerTour > > > Now the schedule of the tour has been set and I'm pleasured to > host Jeff Waugh in Toronto on Monday, November 07. Currently, > I'm in the process of booking a room, and will arrange his talk > most probably for Nov 07, 7PM in Bahen, 40 St George St. > > The room number is not available yet, but it will be one of the > auditoriums on the main floor, and I will put signs on the > presentation day. > > Unfortunately Jeff's schedule is tight, and talk cannot be > scheduled for Tuesday Nov 08 which is the TLUG meeting. So, what > do you guys think? Any way TLUG can help with organizing, etc? > > > [1] http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/09/torontonians-we-need-your-help.html > > Cheers, > > --behdad > http://behdad.org/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 08:54:45 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:54:45 -0400 Subject: EFF in Canada: Protect your Northern Rights Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510270154p668c4facx88882648dbe4427a@mail.gmail.com> >From EFFector Vol. 18, No. 32: (http://www.eff.org/effector/18/32.php#VI) EFF is pleased to announce that we are strengthening our work in Canada. We'll be tracking issues like Bill C-60 (copyright reform), "lawful access" (privacy and surveillance), and other digital rights issues that matter to Canadians. Ren Bucholz, EFF's Policy Coordinator in the Americas, is now based in Toronto, Ontario, where he'll be following these developments full time. If you're interested in staying up-to-date on EFF's work in Canada, sign up for special bulletins (http://action.eff.org/canada) http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/1156 -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 11:25:46 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051027112546.16051.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi guys, > > A couple months ago, when I still didn't knew about > TLUG, I started a petition [1] on my weblog to get > Jeff Waugh into Toronto during the Badger Badger > Badger Tour: > > http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadgerBadgerBadgerTour > > Now the schedule of the tour has been set and I'm > pleasured to host Jeff Waugh in Toronto on Monday, > November 07. Currently, I'm in the process of booking > a room, and will arrange his talk most probably for > Nov 07, 7PM in Bahen, 40 St George St. > > The room number is not available yet, but it will be > one of the auditoriums on the main floor, and I will > put signs on the presentation day. > > Unfortunately Jeff's schedule is tight, and talk > cannot be scheduled for Tuesday Nov 08 which is the > TLUG meeting. So, what do you guys think? Any way > TLUG can help with organizing, etc? Well, I am not much of an Ubuntu or a Gnome fan, both of which I gather Jeff Waugh is very big on. On the other hand, my reaction to someone coming to Toronto who is doing very real work to help Linux get out into the real world can be summed up as: How can I help? >From the above I would assume the hotel and lecture hall are effectively dealt with. Have you got a tour guide/minder who will show him a bit of the city and make sure he gets to the lecture hall on time? Other stuff, PR will be needed, have the following been looked at (and would you like me to look into)?: - the upcoming events section of the free newspapers (Eye, Now, etc.). - the business calendar sections of the non-free newspapers (Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, Toronto Sun, etc.) - Passing out fliers at the local PC clone shops. - email to the other computer (but not necessarily Linux) related mailing lists. - Fliers posted in educational institutions (i.e. University of Toronto, Seneca College, Centennial College, etc.). What else am I am missing here? In other words ask specific help and while I will not not promise results I will be happy to see what I can do. > [1] > http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/09/torontonians-we-need-your-help.html > > Cheers, > > --behdad > http://behdad.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 12:17:38 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:17:38 -0400 Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Unfortunately Jeff's schedule is tight, and talk cannot be > scheduled for Tuesday Nov 08 which is the TLUG meeting. So, what > do you guys think? Any way TLUG can help with organizing, etc? The question more is "what needs organizing?", as well as "What is there that can be done between now and Nov 7?" If you have a room, a speaker, and now, something of an announcement, that represents a fair chunk of the likely-visible stuff. What do you still need? - How is Jeff dealing with transit between Montreal and here? We probably can't help too much with the "gross level" details of getting between there and here, but if he needs a ride from airport or such to U(T), help could be useful/available. - What is Jeff doing the rest of the day? He probably wants some supper, and having someone manage organizing a little get-together for that would cut down on your details. - Would there be value in adding an entry to the GTALUG Wiki about this? There's a "TLUG announce" list that might be worth an announcement too. If you can be precise about some things that are needed, that always makes it easier for people to step up and say "Yes, I can help with that" than when the needs are left nebulous. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:01:16 2005 From: stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Stewart Sinclair) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:01:16 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4360EBBC.8070307@eol.ca> This is a little off the standard talk for this list but when someone ventures into the political area they're fair game. "Fighting Might with Right" has been the classic habit of what I would call the broad democratic opposition. It's results have not been good. It is well to remember that the US won the war against Japan because, among other things it had 2x the population, 10 times the industrial capacity, vastly greater natural resources and above all far more engineers and mechanics. They also planned for that war and it's initiation. Surely you're aware that Pearl Habour, Clark Field (in Manila) etc. was a setup. The real task is to devise a strategy that will AQUIRE the necessary might for might. S. **** psema4 wrote: >Several things have me up in arms right now, so I apologize if my tact is that of a bulldozer. I am nothing if not passionate. > >Rememberance Day is just over 2 weeks from now. > >On November 11th, for myself, I will add an additional minute to also remember those who have made our modern form of society possible. I believe it brings honour to those who gave far more than I have. So that we could be free. > >(If you feel the same, please feel free to distribute.) > >There are so many communities in the world today that exist because of, and are entirely based on, the strength of volunteers. You and I. I believe it is an honourable thing for a citizen to volunteer, and we all do it in our own way. Many have become comfortable with this, and many are learning to. > >To paraphrase some lines in the movie Pearl Harbour: > >Officer 1: Do you know what makes me think we'll win this war? >Officer 2: No. >Officer 1: (points to a pair of young pilots) Them; There is nothing >stronger than the heart of a volunteer. > >I think it is good for everyone, myself included, to be reminded that we do good unto the world by sharing our ideas, knowledge, and wisdom such as we can. > >We do that in large part, I think, because of lessons the entire world had to learn the hard way. Twice. > >My apologies to those who might see my message as preaching to choirs, but we live in volatile times. I needed to be reminded. Maybe it'll help someone else too. > >-- >Scott Elcomb >Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > >2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 >http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:21:25 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: <20051027112546.16051.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051027112546.16051.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Colin, Thanks for the note. My comments below: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Colin McGregor wrote: > >From the above I would assume the hotel and lecture > hall are effectively dealt with. I'm arranging for the lecture hall, that should be fine. As for hotel, he's got my couch, which is admittedly short shorter than he is. :-D > Have you got a tour > guide/minder who will show him a bit of the city and > make sure he gets to the lecture hall on time? Other > stuff, PR will be needed, have the following been > looked at (and would you like me to look into)?: Basically he's arriving on 7th around 4PM to downtown, we probably chat and have a walk in downtown, then lecture, then head out with interested parties for dinner, and he leaves the day after. I was thinking about PR, would be awesome if you could help please. Since I'll be in Montreal the entire next week myself. I will send the announcement when the time/location are finalized, and please go ahead and contact any of these. As for fliers, I will ask a friend to take care of UofT, and possibly the College & Spadina area, but not Seneca, etc. > - the upcoming events section of the free newspapers > (Eye, Now, etc.). > - the business calendar sections of the non-free > newspapers (Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, Toronto > Sun, etc.) > - Passing out fliers at the local PC clone shops. > - email to the other computer (but not necessarily > Linux) related mailing lists. > - Fliers posted in educational institutions (i.e. > University of Toronto, Seneca College, Centennial > College, etc.). > > What else am I am missing here? Nothing, that's all I was expecting. > In other words ask specific help and while I will not > not promise results I will be happy to see what I can > do. Thanks, --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:21:27 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:21:27 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <4360EBBC.8070307-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <4360EBBC.8070307@eol.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510270821g3a4fb971qde5add957e9432b4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/05, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > This is a little off the standard talk for this list but when someone > ventures into the political area they're fair game. I would agree. And this topic is more than a little off-topic for me. > "Fighting Might with Right" has been the classic habit of what I would > call the broad democratic opposition. It's results have not been good. > It is well to remember that the US won the war against Japan because, > among other things it had 2x the population, 10 times the industrial > capacity, vastly greater natural resources and above all far more > engineers and mechanics. They also planned for that war and it's > initiation. Surely you're aware that Pearl Habour, Clark Field (in > Manila) etc. was a setup. The point was not why the wars happened, only that they did, and that as people, we learned some valuable lessons. My intent is simply to re-awaken a sense of honour in what we do, just by talking to one another. The simple act of sharing is profound. > The real task is to devise a strategy that will AQUIRE the necessary > might for might. I am grappling with a layman's vision of complexity theory. Netizens are demonstrating emergent behaviour. I think we have already acquired the necessary might, the necessary momentum. What I think we are missing is vision, and strong, focused, and long-term leadership. Do I believe I can change the world. Most assuredly, no I do not. Do I believe that *we* can? Yes. I certainly do. When I first joined this list, little over a year ago, I asked a question along the lines of "What is the status of Open Source in Canada." In a response to that question (or one shortly thereafter), someone also let me know that the list is, effectively, self-managed. This is an example of where I see "emergent behaviour" in a complex system. The responses I got, and continue to get, lead me down a path of self-discovery I will never be able to forget. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:24:26 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Christopher Browne wrote: > If you have a room, a speaker, and now, something of an announcement, > that represents a fair chunk of the likely-visible stuff. The room is being dealt with, I'll roll the announcement afterwards. > What do you still need? > - How is Jeff dealing with transit between Montreal and here? We > probably can't help too much with the "gross level" details of getting > between there and here, but if he needs a ride from airport or such to > U(T), help could be useful/available. He's flying, as part of his tour. He's also willing to take public transit to downtown. > - What is Jeff doing the rest of the day? He probably wants some > supper, and having someone manage organizing a little get-together for > that would cut down on your details. There's not much rest of the day, he arrives around 4PM in downtown. I was thinking about getting out for dinner with anyone interested after the talk. Any suggestions for a place? > - Would there be value in adding an entry to the GTALUG Wiki about > this? There's a "TLUG announce" list that might be worth an > announcement too. Yeah, that would really help. > If you can be precise about some things that are needed, that always > makes it easier for people to step up and say "Yes, I can help with > that" than when the needs are left nebulous. Ok, thanks. I will get back after working out the room and announcement. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:24:19 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:24:19 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510270821g3a4fb971qde5add957e9432b4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <4360EBBC.8070307@eol.ca> <99a6c38f0510270821g3a4fb971qde5add957e9432b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510270924v7e6063dewb4fa5dac41660249@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/05, psema4 wrote: >... What I think we > are missing is vision, and strong, focused, and long-term leadership... In case anyone misinterprets my meaning for the statement above, or of my recent posts, and for what it's worth, I bear no ill-will to anyone on this list. In particular, to anyone on the GTALUG board. Making my thoughts known is the best way I can think of to help us refocus, continue to grow, and to prosper. Sharing our experiences makes us stronger as a whole. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 17:03:41 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051027170342.73490.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi Colin, > > Thanks for the note. My comments below: > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Colin McGregor wrote: > > > >From the above I would assume the hotel and > lecture > > hall are effectively dealt with. > > I'm arranging for the lecture hall, that should be > fine. As for hotel, he's got my couch, which is > admittedly short shorter than he is. :-D > > > Have you got a tour > > guide/minder who will show him a bit of the city > and > > make sure he gets to the lecture hall on time? > Other > > stuff, PR will be needed, have the following been > > looked at (and would you like me to look into)?: > > Basically he's arriving on 7th around 4PM to > downtown, we probably chat and have a walk in > downtown, then lecture, then head out with interested > parties for dinner, and he leaves the day after. > > I was thinking about PR, would be awesome if you > could help please. Since I'll be in Montreal the > entire next week myself. I will send the announcement > when the time/location are finalized, and please go > ahead and contact any of these. > > As for fliers, I will ask a friend to take care of > UofT, and possibly the College & Spadina area, but > not Seneca, etc. > > > - the upcoming events section of the free > newspapers > > (Eye, Now, etc.). Last I checked the deadline for an announcements (and it has been a while since I last checked) in the Thursday editions of Now/Eye (and they only appear once a week) is the proceeding Monday. Since the talk will be Nov. 7th, I expect the last day an announcement of this sort could be inserted is October 31st. > > - the business calendar sections of the non-free > > newspapers (Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, > Toronto > > Sun, etc.) Not sure what lead times we are looking at here, but again the sooner details can be firmed up the better. > > - Passing out fliers at the local PC clone shops. > > - email to the other computer (but not necessarily > > Linux) related mailing lists. Any time next week should be fine. > > - Fliers posted in educational institutions (i.e. > > University of Toronto, Seneca College, > Centennial > > College, etc.). An annoying truth with these places is that in order to get this stuff up on the notice board you normally need an approval sticker from a student association or other like body. In the case of Centennial College (the last such body I dealt with) the approval group and the place where we would most want signs are at different campuses, both out of the way... > > What else am I am missing here? > > Nothing, that's all I was expecting. > > > In other words ask specific help and while I will > not > > not promise results I will be happy to see what I > can > > do. > > Thanks, > > --behdad > http://behdad.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 18:01:02 2005 From: devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Devin Whalen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:01:02 -0400 Subject: FTP Question Message-ID: <1130436062.8448.26.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> Hey, I had to create a perl program for a client. Basically, it fetches an XML file from a third party's server and inserts values into a database based on the XML for our client, then it creates another XML file and sends that to the third party's server. I was told that the third party were going to use sftp. However, after a having problems getting the sftp to connect to the ip address provided I contacted the third party and he said he could connect fine using cuteFTP (a windows app). So I go to a windows machine and try with this program and it works. Then I see that it is using ftp, not sftp, but also it is using this: FTP with TLS/SSL Port 990 implicit. I have no idea what TLS/SSL Port 990 implicit means? Has anyone on this list come across this? Do you know how I can do this from the command line? Using some windows program is not an option, this has to be automated. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Devin Whalen Programmer Synaptic Vision Inc Phone-(416) 539-0801 Fax- (416) 539-8280 543 Richmond Street West Toronto, Ontario Suite 223 M5V 1Y6 Box 105 Home-(416) 653-3982 Take back the Web with FireFox....a browser you can trust www.getfirefox.com .-. /v\ L I N U X // \\ /( )\ ^^-^^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:22:24 2005 From: rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org (Rick Delaney) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:22:24 -0400 Subject: FTP Question In-Reply-To: <1130436062.8448.26.camel-UO0ojj0JzWvjwg9tCphvaczI0hKmmZiEmjCW/i4Lttk@public.gmane.org> References: <1130436062.8448.26.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> Message-ID: <20051027192224.GB20318@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 02:01:02PM -0400, Devin Whalen wrote: > see that it is using ftp, not sftp, but also it is using this: FTP with > TLS/SSL Port 990 implicit. I have no idea what TLS/SSL Port 990 > implicit means? Has anyone on this list come across this? Do you know > how I can do this from the command line? You could try curl. Or use Net::FTPSSL for a pure Perl solution. -- Rick Delaney rick-h4KjNK7Mzas at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:16:23 2005 From: smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sheldon Mustard) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:16:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Mugs it is; ideas for a catchy phrase? In-Reply-To: <435FD8AA.2020609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435FD8AA.2020609@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <22e435080510271216n29532319md1b53f3b010e6736@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > I was thinking something along the lines of: > > "A good backup will keep you from needing this mug late at night." > "TLE-BU ... something you'll actually do!" -- Sheldon Mustard smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org "There will be no order, only chaos." - Pi (1998) -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:40:48 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:40:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FTP Question In-Reply-To: <1130436062.8448.26.camel-UO0ojj0JzWvjwg9tCphvaczI0hKmmZiEmjCW/i4Lttk@public.gmane.org> References: <1130436062.8448.26.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Devin Whalen wrote: > Hey, > > I had to create a perl program for a client. Basically, it fetches an > XML file from a third party's server and inserts values into a database > based on the XML for our client, then it creates another XML file and > sends that to the third party's server. I was told that the third party > were going to use sftp. However, after a having problems getting the > sftp to connect to the ip address provided I contacted the third party > and he said he could connect fine using cuteFTP (a windows app). So I > go to a windows machine and try with this program and it works. Then I > see that it is using ftp, not sftp, but also it is using this: FTP with > TLS/SSL Port 990 implicit. I have no idea what TLS/SSL Port 990 > implicit means? Has anyone on this list come across this? Do you know > how I can do this from the command line? Using some windows program is > not an option, this has to be automated. Any help would be greatly > appreciated. Hey, This probably means that they are transparently tunneling the normal FTP connection through an SSL connection which is, of course, encrypted. Use stunnel(8) to wrap the ftp(1) call. behdad > Thanks. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 20:29:16 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: <20051027170342.73490.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051027170342.73490.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Colin McGregor wrote: > An annoying truth with these places is that in order > to get this stuff up on the notice board you normally > need an approval sticker from a student association or > other like body. In the case of Centennial College > (the last such body I dealt with) the approval group > and the place where we would most want signs are at > different campuses, both out of the way... I've put up flyers for work study positions in Bahen and Sanford Fleming buildings without any approval. I should think that the relevance of an event hosted at Bahen, one that is likely of interest to may who attend classes (and instruct?) there would go relatively unchallenged. jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 22:03:44 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:03:44 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510271503w28eb1656yce9420304d72cdb6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/05, psema4 wrote: > Several things have me up in arms right now, so I apologize if my tact > is that of a bulldozer. I am nothing if not passionate. Paul Hudson does a much better job of explaining my viewpoint in an article "Free as in Freedom" in December's copy of LinuxFormat. We just had our copy delivered to work today. In a way, I envy those with literary skill - the ability to reach out and provide clarity alongside a message. I can read like a demon, but conveying my thoughts is entirely a different matter. Give me a manual, or a circuit board any day. There has been but one response, public or otherwise, on 3 lists (2 of which are relatively active), to my post. I'm operating almost blind at the moment. What do others think on this? Was the message rash? Too bold? Ill-advised? On topic? Meaningful? As I understand it, the Toronto Linux Users Group is one of the oldest LUG's around. I am hoping some of that experience will come forth and help guide this thread. I have neither the experience, nor the stamina to fight the social blocks I face, for long enough to make a clear case on why I believe this should be important to us all. My heart understands it. My fingers just can't type it. It has been a long, long day. And now, I must needs to beat sendmail into submission. Take care all, -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 22:28:56 2005 From: fouellet-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Francois Ouellette) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:28:56 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510271503w28eb1656yce9420304d72cdb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5db45$e34abe80$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> OK, nice talk but this list still about Linux, right? (right like in: correct). During all the time spent writing rhetoric about the "freedom" of everything and how free-er our minds could be there are (paid) guys at M$ writing code and testing the next release of Windoze and Office... Just like my music teacher used to tell me: if you don't practice, someone else does, he/she will win the next competition, not you! Just a (free) thought. Fran?ois Ouellette >----- Original Message ----- >From: "psema4" >To: >Sent: Thursday, 27 October, 2005 18:03 >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: The History of the World. Part 2 > >On 10/27/05, psema4 wrote: > Several things have me up in arms right now, so I apologize if my tact > is that of a bulldozer. I am nothing if not passionate. > >Paul Hudson does a much better job of explaining my viewpoint in an >article "Free as in Freedom" in December's copy of LinuxFormat. We >just had our copy delivered to work today. > >In a way, I envy those with literary skill - the ability to reach out >and provide clarity alongside a message. I can read like a demon, but >conveying my thoughts is entirely a different matter. Give me a >manual, or a circuit board any day. > >There has been but one response, public or otherwise, on 3 lists (2 of >which are relatively active), to my post. I'm operating almost blind >at the moment. > >What do others think on this? > >Was the message rash? Too bold? Ill-advised? > >On topic? Meaningful? > >As I understand it, the Toronto Linux Users Group is one of the oldest >LUG's around. I am hoping some of that experience will come forth and >help guide this thread. > >I have neither the experience, nor the stamina to fight the social >blocks I face, for long enough to make a clear case on why I believe >this should be important to us all. My heart understands it. My >fingers just can't type it. > >It has been a long, long day. And now, I must needs to beat sendmail >into submission. > >Take care all, >-- >Scott Elcomb >Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > >2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 >http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 23:00:43 2005 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:00:43 -0400 Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: <20051027170342.73490.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43615C1B.1020304@utoronto.ca> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: > >> An annoying truth with these places is that in order >> to get this stuff up on the notice board you normally >> need an approval sticker from a student association or >> other like body. In the case of Centennial College >> (the last such body I dealt with) the approval group >> and the place where we would most want signs are at >> different campuses, both out of the way... > > > I've put up flyers for work study positions in Bahen and Sanford > Fleming buildings without any approval. I should think that the > relevance of an event hosted at Bahen, one that is likely of interest > to may who attend classes (and instruct?) there would go relatively > unchallenged. The U of T St George campus is, as far as I can tell, much less anal about this than other universities or even other U of T campuses. I've never seen any flier with an "approved by" stamp anywhere on it on St George campus. Regards, Marcus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 00:41:31 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <000e01c5db45$e34abe80$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510271503w28eb1656yce9420304d72cdb6@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c5db45$e34abe80$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> Message-ID: <436173BB.9040804@telly.org> Francois Ouellette wrote: >During all the time spent writing rhetoric about the "freedom" of everything >and how free-er our minds could be there are (paid) guys at M$ writing code >and testing the next release of Windoze and Office... > > There seems to be little question that there is, on the whole, less financial reward working on open source software than on the IP hoarding model. At a certain level, participating in FOSS involves a level of communal spirit that must drive Ayn Rand followers nuts. >Just like my music teacher used to tell me: if you don't practice, someone >else does, he/she will win the next competition, not you! > > That depends on the competition. Piano recitals in my experience are judged by people obsessed with attention to details. But those who truly succeed in music are those who are best able at applying their own creativity and may be less interested in getting every detail down. One of my favourite jazz musicians, Keith Jarrett, never played the same thing twice. A British phenom profiled on CBS Sunday Morning earlier this week, Jaimie Callum, can't even read sheet music. Yet by many yardsticks these artists are considered better than others who may practise more. My point is this. Different priorities, or different underlying philosophies, often lead to tackling similar problems in different ways. When this happens, you don't gauge your success using the others' metrics. The metrics of success of proprietary software producers -- primarily financial -- are not the same as those behind most of the free software movement. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 05:57:06 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:57:06 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <000e01c5db45$e34abe80$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0510271503w28eb1656yce9420304d72cdb6@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c5db45$e34abe80$6401a8c0@pcfrancois> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510272257x79833f9bgc7081b5f25914fbc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/05, Francois Ouellette wrote: > OK, nice talk but this list still about Linux, right? (right like in: > correct). Dead-on correct. :-) > During all the time spent writing rhetoric about the "freedom" of everything > and how free-er our minds could be there are (paid) guys at M$ writing code > and testing the next release of Windoze and Office... Again. I plead no contest. There is a very practical justification for your view and many see it the same way. I did to. I don't see it that way now though. It is not only M$ employees that are being paid to write code, for whatever project. I don't make as much, but I don't get paid by the rhetoric of the M$ press either. I do inhouse stuff for a niche 3PL provider. I prefer it this way. I like going to work. It's a progressive place, I learn things and get to be with good people. > Just like my music teacher used to tell me: if you don't practice, someone > else does, he/she will win the next competition, not you! I practice. It is my discipline. I also call it learning. > Just a (free) thought. A $0.02 thought in return. (Not bad, eh? You get a refund. ;-) The brackets around your use of free; this suggests to me (somehow) of a restriction on "freedom." When Honourable Ministers of the Government of Canada are making suggestions to Parliament that may adversly affect the rights and freedoms, not only for us, but for our children? (breathe) I've come up with an analogy: What do you give one who seeks to contain your freedom as a people? My answer would be no-quarter. It's cultural self preservation. What can I do? Well. I'm a LAMP-guy. I learned a trick or two with the gimp using tremendous tutorials, in great mags and online. I throw together a logo, or a t-shirt iron-on image, or whatever, slap it onto a webpage and offer it for download for people to print. It's not much, but it's something. So I did it again - a poster this time. Certain things set me off. This is one of them. I'm sorry when it comes out in a rush. If freedom is empty retoric to this list, and I don't think it is, well then. I dunno. I can fill that particular bucket from another stream I guess. These are the times in which we live. I wouldn't try to impose anything on anyone. Raising an issue? That's a different story. O right! Back to Linux! More specifically the licensing and intellectual property issues. What law gives the GPL it's protection? I'm not saying that the current reforms suggest any threat to either Linux or the GPL, IANAL, and all that... but it *is* a little close to home for me on a few fronts. I also (try to) do some musical stuff. I played trumpet for years. Lately it's all been digital. 6 or 7 tracks this year, released with Creative Commons licenses. It's stress relief. I can do something creative, publish it, *and* market it if I wish. Myself. Using nothing but Linux and a handy-dandy internet connection if I want. And no "big bad studio," or "evil corporate entity" can stop me legally, because I have these rights. Because I have these freedoms. I can now partially wield the powers of law and media - just like they do. They don't like that much, so the "big-bad-guys" send their marketing teams and their retoric back to the governments and try to get the laws changed in their favour again. It's sickening. That shorter thing standing in the opposing corner? None other than Tux. Or rather, that's the way I'd have it. The problems have been getting worse for years. A solution needs to be found, and everybody - Industry, Gov't, Media, etc - knows it. A member of the Government of Canada asked this community for help (re: The History of the World: part 1). 5 hour response time, not a comment. Not so much as a boo. Kinda bugged me, so I jumped on it and ran. And ran. There are many good people here, and I've met several of you. I believe we can do things to help Tux. I've been up maybe 30 hours or so now, been to work twice, vented, fed sendmail to the photocopier, had an impromptu meeting for the AVP project. Cleared my head? Long day. I dunno. But I do feel good for having tried to make a difference. (Btw, the word retoric... has a potential range of meaning reminiscent to that of modern marketing. During the holidays.) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 13:50:17 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:50:17 -0400 Subject: SUSE as SAMBA Client Message-ID: Hi, I have Ubuntu (Hoary) with Samba server running. I use VMware to run a WinXP virtual machine and also a SUSE virtual machine. In WinXP, I can access the samba shared directories without any problem, however in SUSE I cannot. I have seen mention that there are certain things I need to do in SUSE to enable this, but I cannot find any instructions. I checked the SUSE firewall, and even enabled (allowed) samba server (as a client, not sure if I need this, but tried anyway). It still cannot find the samba share. In the Ubuntu host, Firestarter firewall does not get any hits, so that is not blocking it. BTW, the SUSE virtual ethernet is working fine, as I'm able to connect to the host's internet connection without any problems. If anyone knows how to get this working in SUSE, that would help greatly! Thanks! -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 15:04:13 2005 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SUSE as SAMBA Client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051028150413.55435.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> > Hi, > > I have Ubuntu (Hoary) with Samba server running. I > use VMware to run a > WinXP virtual machine and also a SUSE virtual > machine. In WinXP, I can > access the samba shared directories without any > problem, however in > SUSE I cannot. I don't know much about SUSE (I'm also a Ubuntite) but to isolate the problem you can run tcpdump or Ethereal in SUSE when you're trying to connect with the Samba client and see if you see any SMB packets going out. Or you can run the packet sniffer in the server side also to see if the SMB requests are coming in or not. Look also at the Samba logs for errors: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/samba/chapter/book/ch09_01.html Fernando __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 17:47:43 2005 From: devin-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Devin Whalen) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:47:43 -0400 Subject: FTP Question In-Reply-To: <20051027192224.GB20318-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <1130436062.8448.26.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> <20051027192224.GB20318@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4362643F.8050606@synapticvision.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 18:09:00 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:09:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Marketting question In-Reply-To: <435F81AC.1030305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <435F81AC.1030305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4362693C.2010700@interlog.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > I want to ask my boss for some give-aways for upcoming talks I will be > doing on my program (the backup program). What would you guys and gals > want, if you could choose, as a marketing gimmick. I don't tend to like some of the swag t-shirts offered by some companies. The small(?) logo on the front is ok but they tend to have stuff on the back which I don't care to have on a shirt I would want to wear. Mugs are useful and so are good quality pens. Another useful item are those message pad cubes. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 18:17:30 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:17:30 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: <435FC3FC.60303-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <435FC3FC.60303@telly.org> Message-ID: <43626B3A.7050700@interlog.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Alex is right about the terseness; I recall that programs were rarely more > than 60 characters long. You'd type the handful of characters on the > typewriter, hit enter, and stand back as reams of output spewed out. I > would say that APL makes Perl look like COBOL. Many years ago, BYTE magazine published one program in an APL theme issue which was longer than 60 characters. It was John Conway's Game of Life in single line of APL containing approximately 200 characters. APL makes most program languages look easy to read and comprehend. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 18:32:55 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:32:55 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: <43626B3A.7050700-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <435FC3FC.60303@telly.org> <43626B3A.7050700@interlog.com> Message-ID: On 10/28/05, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Alex is right about the terseness; I recall that programs were rarely more > > than 60 characters long. You'd type the handful of characters on the > > typewriter, hit enter, and stand back as reams of output spewed out. I > > would say that APL makes Perl look like COBOL. > > Many years ago, BYTE magazine published one program in an APL theme issue > which was longer than 60 characters. It was John Conway's Game of Life in > single line of APL containing approximately 200 characters. When my brother was at the Mutual Group, back in the '90s, he implemented Tetris in APL. Apparently quite playable :-). Late in the '90s, he was one of the lead developers on a configuration system used by IBM for RS/6K systems which was all in APL. People had been trying to develop replacement systems in other languages for about 15 years; the problem was sufficiently dynamic that attempts to use anything "COBOL-like" (whether that be COBOL, or not-terribly-dynamic usages of C, C++, and such) kept failing miserably. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 19:49:45 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:49:45 -0400 Subject: SUSE as SAMBA Client In-Reply-To: <20051028150413.55435.qmail-DUzfRPVUikSA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051028150413.55435.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stop the firewall altogether. Use smbclient to attach to the share. Can you ssh from Suse to Ubuntu? -Joseph- On 10/28/05, Fernando Duran wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I have Ubuntu (Hoary) with Samba server running. I > > use VMware to run a > > WinXP virtual machine and also a SUSE virtual > > machine. In WinXP, I can > > access the samba shared directories without any > > problem, however in > > SUSE I cannot. > > I don't know much about SUSE (I'm also a Ubuntite) but > to isolate the problem you can run tcpdump or Ethereal > in SUSE when you're trying to connect with the Samba > client and see if you see any SMB packets going out. > Or you can run the packet sniffer in the server side > also to see if the SMB requests are coming in or not. > > Look also at the Samba logs for errors: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/samba/chapter/book/ch09_01.html > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 06:46:04 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 02:46:04 -0400 Subject: NewTLUG @ LinuxWorld report Message-ID: <43631AAC.5020205@telly.org> As promised, today I met with Plum Communications, organizers of the LinuxWorld show April 2006 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The intent was to confirm some community activities at the show, and to clarify some issues in their document regarding non-profit groups. Despite Colin's email to the organizers attempting to "warn" them about me, the meeting went well. (As I said earlier, I have a successful track record for working with trade shows that pre-dates LinuxWorld.) Here is a summary of what was discussed: 1) There will be a NewTLUG meeting Tuesday April 25 at the MTCC, coinciding with the show and on the regular day of the month scheduled for NewTLUG meetings. The show organizers will help to publicize of this along with their usual conference materials. 2) There will be discounted LPI exams given at the show, as usual. 3) It is confirmed that CLUE will have a booth at the show, as CLUE has no objections to the current criteria for community groups getting no-cost space. In addition to promoting its own activities and programs, CLUE will offer its facilities to any other LUG in the region that needs a place at the show. (The only one I have spoken to so far is Hamilton, which will likely have at least a partial presence.) 4) Just as I did not (and never did) claim to represent GTALUG, it is also the case that GTALUG does not have (and has never had) the authority to speak or act on behalf of NewTLUG. (This position was confirmed by consensus at last Tuesday's NewTLUG meeting.) NewTLUG will have a display at the show, either at a GTALUG booth or (if that is not available) at CLUE's booth. NewTLUG has already started discussing some community initiatives which should be fully developed by the time of the show. 5) As I suspected, the criteria for community groups prohibiting exhibition of individual member "work" is not designed to prevent showing of non-commercial projects by LUG members. The main intent is to prevent commercial activity at community booths which would compete with vendors who are paying for booth space -- an intent which I fully support. The organizers are prepared to commit this clarification to writing if it will help solve any problems. 6) The issue of providing snail-mail addresses was raised. The organizers pointed out that they were aware of the privacy regulations, which according to their awareness apply to email and telephone communications but not printed mail. In any case, they understand that the Toronto community probably has a very small list of mail addresses collected, and the lack of such a list is not a deal breaker from their end for any group. 7) CLUE will probably be participating in the LinuxWorld "roadshow" which will take a limited version of the show to Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary and Vancouver during May. The nature of this participation is yet to be determined. Anyway, that's it for now. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 14:25:19 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:25:19 -0400 Subject: SUSE as SAMBA Client In-Reply-To: References: <20051028150413.55435.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 10/28/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > Stop the firewall altogether. > Use smbclient to attach to the share. > Can you ssh from Suse to Ubuntu? > -Joseph- Yes that did the job. After searching on the net some more I found a lot of people giving that advice (well, basically what worked is changing my virtual ethernet port from EXTERNAL ZONE to INTERNAL ZONE). Thanks. -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 15:27:39 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 08:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: http://drpcdr.ca Message-ID: <20051029152739.52585.qmail@web33510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From Christopher Charles Sat Oct 29 07:19:00 2005 Received: from [209.135.116.174] by web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 PDT Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Christopher Charles" Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Subject: http://drpcdr.ca To: security-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, abuse-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 713 OK I am guilty of poor netiquette in advertising my website! I have a goal to get 10,000 new visitors by Jan 01/06. At the time I had only 6,000. With just 2 months to my deadline I had to do something to drive the traffic quickly. So I posted a message to some mail lists! SE optimization brings steady flow of surfers but I needed a huge boost fast! I reasoned that 100 % of all mail list members use a computer connected to Internet Services and therefore would benefit from the information contained on my website! I regret such action because now my web page has been disconnected from the Net! Several hundreds of people use my website habitually! It is a free public service designed to DO GOOD! I feel my site should remain connected. There is information directly on my site not available elsewhere! I realize my actions have upset some people at the letterpress and db2 lists. I did not intend to cause upset! I apologise! And if I upset other mail list members then please forgive me! Chris http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 21:22:18 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:22:18 -0400 Subject: In defence of C In-Reply-To: <43626B3A.7050700-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510021356x4403a51ej1a032f2e66b8101c@mail.gmail.com> <20051006025443.GB1448@waltdnes.org> <20051006145342.GQ7966@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051007051223.GB4077@waltdnes.org> <20051008022344.GA6001@waltdnes.org> <20051012202948.GC1494@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <435FC3FC.60303@telly.org> <43626B3A.7050700@interlog.com> Message-ID: <4363E80A.1070208@rogers.com> Kevin Cozens wrote: > APL makes most program languages look easy to read and comprehend. > It's all Geek to me. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 00:16:27 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:16:27 -0400 Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <20051029152739.52585.qmail-dlhYhT34VQ+vuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051029152739.52585.qmail@web33510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510291716s528be929u9434d3bc824943de@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/05, Christopher Charles wrote: > From Christopher Charles Sat Oct 29 07:19:00 2005 > Received: from [209.135.116.174] by > web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 > 07:19:00 PDT > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Christopher Charles" Add > to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert > Subject: http://drpcdr.ca > To: security-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, abuse-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Content-Length: 713 > > OK I am guilty of poor netiquette in advertising my > website! To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of SilenceIsDefeat.org, but I have been guilty of bad netiquette at times as well. It's a learning experience. Based on the headers above, it looks like you're taking it up with SAGO which is probably a good start. If you're going to post announcements, you should consider who the communities are before posting. This list for example is oriented to technical folks who already have plenty of access-to and knowledge-of both unix shells and open source. > Several hundreds of people use my website habitually! > It is a free public service designed to DO GOOD! After looking through SilenceIsDefeat.org (where your address is currently pointing), I do think there might those who could benefit from such services. I do have some issues with it though. Off the top, - If it is free, why do you require paypal account information? - If a potential customer does not have a paypal account and needs to mail their information in, why is the return postage necessary... What is to be returned? - Why are PO boxes not acceptable mailing addresses? Questions like this that, left unclear, and taken along with random advertising, may make people beleive this to be a scam of sorts. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 05:59:16 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:59:16 -0400 Subject: The History of the World. Part 2 In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510270821g3a4fb971qde5add957e9432b4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510262116rb4ed653p4324ea84ad03a718@mail.gmail.com> <4360EBBC.8070307@eol.ca> <99a6c38f0510270821g3a4fb971qde5add957e9432b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510292259y241179cei6ffdea81b40d1701@mail.gmail.com> > The responses I got, and continue to get, lead me down a path of > self-discovery I will never be able to forget. A few days before I got on this rhetorical kick (for lack of a better way to describe it), somebody sent me an article about Bram Cohen. http://p2pnet.net/story/6634 It takes a great deal of willpower just to point it out but I think it's worth the effort. Maybe I have Aspergers*, maybe I don't. "Little professor" is indeed a spooky description though. Free/Libre -and- Open Source Software is why I became a member. LUG's are on the front lines in my perspective. The public is coming. That was the goal. I'll ask that you're patient with me. I'll find out and deal with it. (yeh, I practice. lol) The list will come back to life soon I hope. Shop talk is another reason I like going to work. TLUG's there in my mailbox. ;-) * The Aspergers Society of Ontario has a page at http://www.aspergers.ca/ for more info. -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 08:41:26 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 03:41:26 -0500 Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510291716s528be929u9434d3bc824943de-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051029152739.52585.qmail@web33510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <99a6c38f0510291716s528be929u9434d3bc824943de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c359fc0510300141q1d1ff37aqc1f4081c35d5c030@mail.gmail.com> I use the public unix shell service provided by silenceisdefeat.org myself. They ask for a $1 donation to get your address so if you hack the server or otherwise make yourself obnoxious... well more so that you just don't do that. Mr. drpcdr.ca just hosts on there, he doesn't run it or something. Hope that clears things up a little. On 10/29/05, psema4 wrote: > On 10/29/05, Christopher Charles wrote: > > From Christopher Charles Sat Oct 29 07:19:00 2005 > > Received: from [209.135.116.174] by > > web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 > > 07:19:00 PDT > > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Christopher Charles" Add > > to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert > > Subject: http://drpcdr.ca > > To: security-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, abuse-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Content-Length: 713 > > > > OK I am guilty of poor netiquette in advertising my > > website! > > To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of SilenceIsDefeat.org, but I > have been guilty of bad netiquette at times as well. It's a learning > experience. > > Based on the headers above, it looks like you're taking it up with > SAGO which is probably a good start. > > If you're going to post announcements, you should consider who the > communities are before posting. This list for example is oriented to > technical folks who already have plenty of access-to and knowledge-of > both unix shells and open source. > > > Several hundreds of people use my website habitually! > > It is a free public service designed to DO GOOD! > > After looking through SilenceIsDefeat.org (where your address is > currently pointing), I do think there might those who could benefit > from such services. > > I do have some issues with it though. Off the top, > > - If it is free, why do you require paypal account information? > - If a potential customer does not have a paypal account and needs to > mail their information in, why is the return postage necessary... > What is to be returned? > - Why are PO boxes not acceptable mailing addresses? > > Questions like this that, left unclear, and taken along with random > advertising, may make people beleive this to be a scam of sorts. > > -- > Scott Elcomb > Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > > 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 > http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 09:04:10 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:04:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510291716s528be929u9434d3bc824943de-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510291716s528be929u9434d3bc824943de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051030090410.45342.qmail@web33509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Google Adsense pays per click and paypal business is there's not mine! I am promised a small percentage of sales from paypal subscriber from my site. Chris --- psema4 wrote: > On 10/29/05, Christopher Charles > wrote: > > From Christopher Charles Sat Oct 29 07:19:00 2005 > > Received: from [209.135.116.174] by > > web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Oct > 2005 > > 07:19:00 PDT > > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Christopher Charles" > Add > > to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile > Alert > > Subject: http://drpcdr.ca > > To: security-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, abuse-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Content-Length: 713 > > > > OK I am guilty of poor netiquette in advertising > my > > website! > > To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of > SilenceIsDefeat.org, but I > have been guilty of bad netiquette at times as well. > It's a learning > experience. > > Based on the headers above, it looks like you're > taking it up with > SAGO which is probably a good start. > > If you're going to post announcements, you should > consider who the > communities are before posting. This list for > example is oriented to > technical folks who already have plenty of access-to > and knowledge-of > both unix shells and open source. > > > Several hundreds of people use my website > habitually! > > It is a free public service designed to DO GOOD! > > After looking through SilenceIsDefeat.org (where > your address is > currently pointing), I do think there might those > who could benefit > from such services. > > I do have some issues with it though. Off the top, > > - If it is free, why do you require paypal account > information? > - If a potential customer does not have a paypal > account and needs to > mail their information in, why is the return postage > necessary... > What is to be returned? > - Why are PO boxes not acceptable mailing addresses? > > Questions like this that, left unclear, and taken > along with random > advertising, may make people beleive this to be a > scam of sorts. > > -- > Scott Elcomb > Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > > 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 > http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> > http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 12:20:47 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:20:47 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG @ LinuxWorld report In-Reply-To: <43631AAC.5020205-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43631AAC.5020205@telly.org> Message-ID: <4364BA9F.70709@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > 1) There will be a NewTLUG meeting Tuesday April 25 at the MTCC, > coinciding with the show and on the regular day of the month scheduled > for NewTLUG meetings. The show organizers will help to publicize of this > along with their usual conference materials. > > 2) There will be discounted LPI exams given at the show, as usual. > > 3) It is confirmed that CLUE will have a booth at the show, as CLUE has > no objections to the current criteria for community groups getting > no-cost space. In addition to promoting its own activities and programs, > CLUE will offer its facilities to any other LUG in the region that needs > a place at the show. (The only one I have spoken to so far is Hamilton, > which will likely have at least a partial presence.) > > 4) Just as I did not (and never did) claim to represent GTALUG, it is > also the case that GTALUG does not have (and has never had) the > authority to speak or act on behalf of NewTLUG. (This position was > confirmed by consensus at last Tuesday's NewTLUG meeting.) NewTLUG will > have a display at the show, either at a GTALUG booth or (if that is not > available) at CLUE's booth. NewTLUG has already started discussing some > community initiatives which should be fully developed by the time of the > show. NewTLUG, CLUE, HLUG ... It'll be great with more LUGs present. We'll be able to meet the other LUG members :-) Do you know about Ottawa? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 12:34:40 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:34:40 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG @ LinuxWorld report In-Reply-To: <4364BA9F.70709-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43631AAC.5020205@telly.org> <4364BA9F.70709@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4364BDE0.6030306@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > NewTLUG, CLUE, HLUG ... > > It'll be great with more LUGs present. Well, at least they won't be CLUEless. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 18:08:35 2005 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:08:35 -0500 Subject: mms:// how to question Message-ID: Hey all! Has anyone had experience saving streams from an mms server? I'm trying to view some news articles but all I get is a asx.asp file which appears to be xml with a mms:// link. I looked at various mms client and didn't find anything that is currently maintained or useful. I tried opening the steam with xmms and mplayer but that doesn't appear to work either. Would anyone know of a tool to use to save the stream so I can watch it and possibly save it? Thanks Martin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 19:44:52 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:44:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: mms:// how to question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Martin Duclos wrote: > Hey all! > Has anyone had experience saving streams from an mms server? I'm trying to > view some news articles but all I get is a asx.asp file which appears to be > xml with a mms:// link. I looked at various mms client and didn't find > anything that is currently maintained or useful. I tried opening the steam > with xmms and mplayer but that doesn't appear to work either. Would anyone > know of a tool to use to save the stream so I can watch it and possibly save > it? > Thanks > Martin Try replacing the mms:// part with rtsp:// and most of the times mplayer can handle it. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 20:43:45 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:43:45 -0500 Subject: mms:// how to question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/30/05, Martin Duclos wrote: > Has anyone had experience saving streams from an mms server? I'm trying to > view some news articles but all I get is a asx.asp file which appears to be > xml with a mms:// link. I looked at various mms client and didn't find > anything that is currently maintained or useful. I tried opening the steam > with xmms and mplayer but that doesn't appear to work either. Would anyone > know of a tool to use to save the stream so I can watch it and possibly save > it? VLC can handle mms. However, I find that it doesn't always handle WMV as well as mplayer with the w32codecs package installed. -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 04:31:33 2005 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:31:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto References: Message-ID: Behdad Esfahbod writes: > There's not much rest of the day, he arrives around 4PM in > downtown. I was thinking about getting out for dinner with > anyone interested after the talk. Any suggestions for a place? Totally awesome. I want to meet him and other TLUG people. I can help write after-event PR stuff. =) I'd also like to score a CD of the latest release, if possible; I know a few people I need to convert to Ubuntu... Sacha -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 11:10:02 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:10:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <17c359fc0510300141q1d1ff37aqc1f4081c35d5c030-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <17c359fc0510300141q1d1ff37aqc1f4081c35d5c030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051031111002.4969.qmail@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Respect! Brother! Chris --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: > I use the public unix shell service provided by > silenceisdefeat.org > myself. They ask for a $1 donation to get your > address so if you hack > the server or otherwise make yourself obnoxious... > well more so that > you just don't do that. > > Mr. drpcdr.ca just hosts on there, he doesn't run it > or something. > > Hope that clears things up a little. > > > On 10/29/05, psema4 wrote: > > On 10/29/05, Christopher Charles > wrote: > > > From Christopher Charles Sat Oct 29 07:19:00 > 2005 > > > Received: from [209.135.116.174] by > > > web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 > Oct 2005 > > > 07:19:00 PDT > > > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) > > > From: "Christopher Charles" > Add > > > to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile > Alert > > > Subject: http://drpcdr.ca > > > To: security-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, abuse-uELkwqgQgFFBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > > Content-Length: 713 > > > > > > OK I am guilty of poor netiquette in advertising > my > > > website! > > > > To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of > SilenceIsDefeat.org, but I > > have been guilty of bad netiquette at times as > well. It's a learning > > experience. > > > > Based on the headers above, it looks like you're > taking it up with > > SAGO which is probably a good start. > > > > If you're going to post announcements, you should > consider who the > > communities are before posting. This list for > example is oriented to > > technical folks who already have plenty of > access-to and knowledge-of > > both unix shells and open source. > > > > > Several hundreds of people use my website > habitually! > > > It is a free public service designed to DO GOOD! > > > > After looking through SilenceIsDefeat.org (where > your address is > > currently pointing), I do think there might those > who could benefit > > from such services. > > > > I do have some issues with it though. Off the > top, > > > > - If it is free, why do you require paypal account > information? > > - If a potential customer does not have a paypal > account and needs to > > mail their information in, why is the return > postage necessary... > > What is to be returned? > > - Why are PO boxes not acceptable mailing > addresses? > > > > Questions like this that, left unclear, and taken > along with random > > advertising, may make people beleive this to be a > scam of sorts. > > > > -- > > Scott Elcomb > > Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > > > > > > 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 > > http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> > http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > > -- > Leigh Honeywell > http://hypatia.ca > ============ > nyetwork group > http://nyetwork.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://drpcdr.ca, Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 11:27:24 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (psema4) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:27:24 -0500 Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <20051031111002.4969.qmail-Bp97PIrFWf6vuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <17c359fc0510300141q1d1ff37aqc1f4081c35d5c030@mail.gmail.com> <20051031111002.4969.qmail@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0510310327v5e2153b2qfbbc4cc8684707bf@mail.gmail.com> On 10/31/05, Christopher Charles wrote: > > Respect! Brother! > Chris > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: > > > I use the public unix shell service provided by > > silenceisdefeat.org > > myself. They ask for a $1 donation to get your > > address so if you hack > > the server or otherwise make yourself obnoxious... > > well more so that > > you just don't do that. > > > > Mr. drpcdr.ca just hosts on there, he doesn't run it > > or something. > > > > Hope that clears things up a little. Respect - and thanks - indeed. :-) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 16:35:40 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:35:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Sacha Chua wrote: > Totally awesome. I want to meet him and other TLUG people. > > I can help write after-event PR stuff. =) I'd also like to score a CD of the > latest release, if possible; I know a few people I need to convert to Ubuntu... > > Sacha I'm picking up some CDs here in Ubuntu Below Zero conference in Montreal to hand out next week. The announcement is coming pretty soon now. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 17:30:18 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:30:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: GNOME and Ubuntu talk: Jeff Waugh in Toronto Message-ID: Jeff Waugh brings the BadgerBadgerBadger tour [1] to town, and talks about all the amazing things happening in the GNOME and Ubuntu projects, from the new multimedia framework of the GNOME project, to the .NET application development environment for the Linux desktop, to the GNOME project deployment on the Nokia internet tablet devices. Expect a high wow-factor and lots of Ubuntu CDs and stickers. Where: BA1170, Bahen Building, 40 St George St, Toronto. When: Monday November 07, 7:00--9:00PM. We probably go for a drink/dinner afterwards. Please forward to interested parties, lists, newspapers, etc. Bio: By day, Jeff Waugh works on Ubuntu business and community development for Canonical. By night, he rides shotgun on the GNOME release juggernaut and plots the Open Source blogging explosion with Planet. Waugh is an active member of the Free Software community, holding positions such as GNOME Release Manager (2001-2005), Director of the GNOME Foundation Board (2003-2005), president of the Sydney Linux User's Group (2002-2004), and member of the linux.conf.au 2001 organising team. Jeff was awarded the Google-O'Reilly Open Source Evangelist Award for his contribution go Ubuntu and GNOME projects this last Summer. He is a card-carrying member of Linux Australia, but does not say "mate". [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadgerBadgerBadgerTour -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 18:11:02 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:11:02 -0500 Subject: GNOME and Ubuntu talk: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/31/05, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Jeff Waugh brings the BadgerBadgerBadger tour [1] to town, and > talks about all the amazing things happening in the GNOME and > Ubuntu projects, from the new multimedia framework of the GNOME > project, to the .NET application development environment for the > Linux desktop, to the GNOME project deployment on the Nokia > internet tablet devices. Expect a high wow-factor and lots of > Ubuntu CDs and stickers. > > Where: BA1170, Bahen Building, 40 St George St, Toronto. > When: Monday November 07, 7:00--9:00PM. > > We probably go for a drink/dinner afterwards. Please forward to > interested parties, lists, newspapers, etc. > > > Bio: > > By day, Jeff Waugh works on Ubuntu business and community > development for Canonical. By night, he rides shotgun on the > GNOME release juggernaut and plots the Open Source blogging > explosion with Planet. Waugh is an active member of the Free > Software community, holding positions such as GNOME Release > Manager (2001-2005), Director of the GNOME Foundation Board > (2003-2005), president of the Sydney Linux User's Group > (2002-2004), and member of the linux.conf.au 2001 organising > team. Jeff was awarded the Google-O'Reilly Open Source > Evangelist Award for his contribution go Ubuntu and GNOME > projects this last Summer. He is a card-carrying member of Linux > Australia, but does not say "mate". > > > [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadgerBadgerBadgerTour Do you require any RSVPs to make sure there is enough room for people? I do not want to miss this one. Thanks. -Steve. -- Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 18:11:40 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:11:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: http://drpcdr.ca In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0510310327v5e2153b2qfbbc4cc8684707bf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0510310327v5e2153b2qfbbc4cc8684707bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051031181140.28995.qmail@web33504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> de nada amigo check my signature! Chris --- psema4 wrote: > On 10/31/05, Christopher Charles > wrote: > > > > Respect! Brother! > > Chris > > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: > > > > > I use the public unix shell service provided by > > > silenceisdefeat.org > > > myself. They ask for a $1 donation to get your > > > address so if you hack > > > the server or otherwise make yourself > obnoxious... > > > well more so that > > > you just don't do that. > > > > > > Mr. drpcdr.ca just hosts on there, he doesn't > run it > > > or something. > > > > > > Hope that clears things up a little. > > Respect - and thanks - indeed. :-) > > -- > Scott Elcomb > Fight might with Right. Your Right. > > > 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 > http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> > http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://silenceisdefeat.org/~ccharlee/index.php Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 18:41:23 2005 From: jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:41:23 -0500 Subject: FTP Question In-Reply-To: <4362643F.8050606-Gq53QDLGkWIleAitJ8REmdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <1130436062.8448.26.camel@devinsbox.synapticivision.com> <20051027192224.GB20318@localhost.localdomain> <4362643F.8050606@synapticvision.com> Message-ID: On 10/28/05, Devin Whalen wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions. I would like to use a perl solution so I am > looking into Net:::FTPSSL. However, I couldn't get it to install without a > force on the make. It would not work, but that might be because of the > force on the make. So maybe I will have to use curl or stunnel like Behdad > suggested. Thanks again. Why did you have to force the make? What did it complain about? Was it missing crypto or SSL libraries/perl packages? If so, it's no wonder it didn't work. :) Try to figure out where it died and why. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 18:47:27 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:47:27 -0500 Subject: mms:// how to question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051031184727.GA9487@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 01:08:35PM -0500, Martin Duclos wrote: > Hey all! > Has anyone had experience saving streams from an mms server? I'm trying to > view some news articles but all I get is a asx.asp file which appears to be > xml with a mms:// link. I looked at various mms client and didn't find > anything that is currently maintained or useful. I tried opening the steam > with xmms and mplayer but that doesn't appear to work either. Would anyone > know of a tool to use to save the stream so I can watch it and possibly > save it? Use mplayer and use the wave output option. Then ogg or mp3 encode the wave afterwards. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 19:36:41 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:36:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: GNOME and Ubuntu talk: Jeff Waugh in Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Steve wrote: > Do you require any RSVPs to make sure there is enough room for people? > I do not want to miss this one. > > Thanks. > > -Steve. No, no RSVP. It's an auditorium, there shouldn't be any problem at 7PM. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml