Free Java (was Database for "average" users)

[Christopher Browne]

On 5/9/05, Andrew Cowie <andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-01-05 at 21:25 -0400, Christopher Browne wrote:
> > A fair number of the extensions getting added to OpenOffice.org seem
> > to be Java apps, and the ability to include Java in Linux
> > distributions is still pretty spotty.
> 
> That is decreasingly accurate.
> 
> > I don't see any JDK available for Debian other than in the non-free
> > section
> 
> Debian being the only significant exception. RHEL, Fedora, Gentoo, etc
> all have Java easy to use in the mainline distro.

They all include Java in their set of packages?

Nonsense.  Sun forbids that.  Perhaps you should read the license some
time; it expressly forbids third parties to do that.

The situation for ALL distributions for the handling of Sun's JDK/JRE
is just the same as it is for Debian, and it has been thus for years. 
JDK/JRE belongs to Sun, and Linux distribution makers are not
permitted to include it in their distributions.

The Debian guys happen to tell truth about it: "It isn't free
software, and we cannot include it in the distribution because we are
not permitted to redistribute it."  The same is true for everyone
else.

Look at the Gentoo Java Guide, for instance...
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/java.xml

"If you run emerge =sun-jdk-1.4.2.06 or =ibm-jdk-bin-1.4.2, you will
be notified that you are required to download the actual tarballs
yourself. This has to do with license restrictions for the Sun JRE/JDK
(online click-wrap license) and registration issues with the IBM
JRE/JDK."

Fedora includes neither Sun JDK nor JRE.
http://www.fedorafaq.org/custom_java.html

In order to install it, you have to...

"Download the JPackage Java 1.5.0 Source RPM. Click on the link that
looks something like "java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.03-1jpp.src.rpm." Then, on
the next page, pick where you want to download the file from. This
should download the package to your home directory."

Presumably the list could continue.  I did a build of JDK on FreeBSD;
that, too, required downloading the JDK directly from Sun.  It was not
"included" in FreeBSD.

> > , and I haven't seen much indication of alternatives to Sun's
> > implementation being  widely usable for general purposes.
> 
> [And, although it's not free by Debian's definition (the problem mostly
> being restrictions around redistribution), Sun's JVM is nevertheless
> freely available, and works VERY well, thank you very much. For a large
> footprint, long running, heavy load server instance I wouldn't choose
> anything but.]

It's not "free enough" that anyone has seen fit to include it on
install CDs.  It would violate license agreements to include it on
Knoppix CDs.

> As for free java, it is a reality, and it works quite well for most
> situations. In particular, GCJ's ability to compile to native
> executables is brilliant.

Does it support Java 1.5 yet?

Does it include Swing?  I understand that it doesn't yet support AWT,
which presumably puts it WAY behind the curve on supporting Swing.

Will it run Eclipse?

> >  There are a
> > bunch of alternative JVMs, but only spotty coverage of Java classes.
> 
> That is also inaccurate.

Um.  AWT?  Swing?

> A significant issue for any Java implementation is compatibility, and
> I'm pleased to report the observation that those doing third party Java
> implementations have been *very* scrupulous to stick to the defined Java
> standard.
> 
> GCJ 3.4 gets to "rather good" and the recently released GCJ 4.0 (part of
> GCC 4.0) has outstanding coverage and compatibility and indeed can quite
> rightly claim to be a 1.4.2 JDK.

That's nice; It's unfortunate that people are already moving to 1.5...
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