From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 02:00:55 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:00:55 -0500 Subject: Wierd KDE problem In-Reply-To: <871x0x93z7.fsf-HasXQTlsvt1ah8WM/F5+tg@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> Message-ID: <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> Charles philip Chan wrote: >On 29 Nov 2005, evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > >>For reasons that I can't figure out, when I double-click on a >>directory icon from my desktop it's now opened with Kuickshow (the >>program that exhibits photos in a directory as a slideshow) rather >>than the file manager. >> >>Does anyone here know how to change it back? >> >> > >(1) Go to "Setting" ==> "Configure Konqueror" ==> "File Asscociations". > >(2) Go to "Inode" ==> "Directories". > >(3) Change the order of apps to Konqeror on top. > > Konq was the only app in the list. But after I re-applied what seemed to be the existing settings, it works OK again. Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 02:13:41 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:13:41 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <438E5957.6060503-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> Message-ID: <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer available for use from home. Would anybody around be able to help, at least by advise? I at the moment can not afford to pay much, I prefer not to pay at all. Though I could possibly offer in return some Linux support... or web development support, servers administration, etc... The pain is stronger than usual since I had a chance to use a powerfull machine for almost two last years... But it was not mine and must return it... zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 03:20:23 2005 From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:20:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <438E5C55.8070205-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> Message-ID: <87ek4xo64q.fsf@gmail.com> Zbigniew> Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer Zbigniew> available for use from home. Try craigslist. There is a computer shop on Yonge some 2 blocks south from Bloor (I don't remember precisely) that sets out free parts on the sidewalk every Thursday evening. (I don't remember the day precisely, either, but I think it was Thursday). Either way, I think not paying at all means assembling it yourself from parts. -- A true pessimist won't be discouraged by a little success. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 03:49:04 2005 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:49:04 -0500 Subject: used computer or motherboard Message-ID: <1133408944.9067.5.camel@localhost> I've got a used Asus TUS-M integrated motherboard complete with a 1 Ghz Celeron that you can have. You will have to get memory somewhere else though -- it takes PC100 / 133. Contact me off list if you want it. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 06:01:07 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:01:07 +0800 Subject: Application for linux inquiry Message-ID: <200512011401.07094.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Hi ALL, I was wondering if anyone knows of a good software? ( preferred LAMP ) that acts like friendster... Thanks, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 13:13:24 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:13:24 -0500 Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <438E348C.9050705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438E348C.9050705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051201131324.GA9640@ettin> On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 06:23:56PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: >Hey Folks, > >Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to be >able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've played >around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) 500/TCP >never seems to be open. All my experienc with IPSec has involved udp/500 protocols 50 and 51. I believe that 50 and 51 must be active before UDP. I've never seen a tcp/500 IPSec tunnel. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 91 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 07:04:35 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 02:04:35 -0500 Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <438E348C.9050705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438E348C.9050705@rogers.com> Message-ID: IPSec also uses IP Protocol 50 and 51. IKE uses udp 500. Some vendors have implemented ike over tcp 500 (checkpoint and cisco) I don't think ike over tcp is standard. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Byron > Sonne > Sent: November 30, 2005 6:24 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > Hey Folks, > > Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to be > able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've played > around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) 500/TCP > never seems to be open. > > I don't need to actually have working communications and info exchange > between entities, etc. I'm not interested in creating a viable network. > What I do want to get is a server setup that listens on 500/TCP for > IPSec stuff so I can attempt to tickle responses out of it, and I'm not > having any luck. > > Can anyone give me some pointers? I'd appreciate it! (or a live IP > listening on 500/TCP that doesn't mind some heavy probing ;) > > Regards, > Byron > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 07:07:54 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 02:07:54 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <87ek4xo64q.fsf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <87ek4xo64q.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seriously, is this true? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Zimmerman > Sent: November 30, 2005 10:20 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: a second hand computer or mother board around? > > > Zbigniew> Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer > Zbigniew> available for use from home. > > Try craigslist. > > There is a computer shop on Yonge some 2 blocks south from Bloor > (I don't remember precisely) that sets out free parts on the sidewalk > every Thursday evening. (I don't remember the day precisely, either, > but I think it was Thursday). > > Either way, I think not paying at all means assembling it yourself > from parts. > > -- > A true pessimist won't be discouraged by a little success. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 17:13:21 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:13:21 -0500 Subject: Application for linux inquiry In-Reply-To: <200512011401.07094.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512011401.07094.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <17c359fc0512010913t399d32e7jf911bd44bc4ae0d4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/05, JM wrote: > Hi ALL, > > I was wondering if anyone knows of a good software? ( preferred LAMP ) that > acts like friendster... > > Thanks, The OK Web Server runs OKCupid, a social networking / dating site, might want to check it out: http://okws.org/ -Leigh -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 18:25:48 2005 From: Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:25:48 -0600 Subject: IPSec over TCP Message-ID: <73FFFC8A49173C4B84C3A466E633A6BF0192FC46@daebe102.NOE.Nokia.com> Cisco and Check Point are the only 2 I know of as well (I am a CCSE+) tcp/500 was only created so their respective clients could communicate from behind nat devices without using UDP encapsulation. Under Linux, the KAME ipsec-tools work fine, but 500/tcp is not supported as of yet, but NAT-T on port 4500 is, which is the real way to support ike over tcp. Nat-t on port 4500 is the way to go, as I know Check Point now supports it, but I am currently not sure about Cisco. Eric Malenfant, NSA, CCSE+, RHCE -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of ext Ansar Mohammed Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:05 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP IPSec also uses IP Protocol 50 and 51. IKE uses udp 500. Some vendors have implemented ike over tcp 500 (checkpoint and cisco) I don't think ike over tcp is standard. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Byron > Sonne > Sent: November 30, 2005 6:24 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > Hey Folks, > > Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to be > able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've > played around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) > 500/TCP never seems to be open. > > I don't need to actually have working communications and info exchange > between entities, etc. I'm not interested in creating a viable network. > What I do want to get is a server setup that listens on 500/TCP for > IPSec stuff so I can attempt to tickle responses out of it, and I'm > not having any luck. > > Can anyone give me some pointers? I'd appreciate it! (or a live IP > listening on 500/TCP that doesn't mind some heavy probing ;) > > Regards, > Byron > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 18:38:33 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:38:33 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <20051201180215.25731.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051201180215.25731.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <438F4329.4000407@sympatico.ca> While I strongly support Colin's idea, the owners of the FreeTOReuse group appear to be barking mad, and have been spamming Canadian mailing lists ever since they walked off with half of FreecycleTO's membership. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 18:02:15 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:02:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Geek gifts Message-ID: <20051201180215.25731.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Zbigniew Koziol?s recent request for a computer has started me thinking. Being geeks we are (almost?) all interested in new/different technology, and many of us (yes, I am one) have packrat tendencies. So, in this season of giving/self improvement let?s see what can be done to help others and ourselves. I would like to suggest a geek holiday oriented gift program sort of patterned after the FreecycleTO / FreeTOreuse projects that you can read about here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreecycleTO/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freetoreuse/ In essence we are talking about getting rid of stuff that is just eating up closet space and will likely not be used ever. Then maybe replace some of that with some other old but interesting technology. To start the project rolling let me put the following bits on offer: - Microsoft SQL Server 2000 Enterprise Edition 120-Day Evaluation, includes SQL Server 2000 Reporting Services. The package is new and un-opened. This was a free item at a Microsoft sponsored event (hey, the food was quite nice, so it wasn?t a total waste :-) ). No snarky comments please. - A copy of the Xandros Desktop OS, Open Circulation Version (which is based on Linux). Picked this up early this year If your interested in one or both of the above e-mail me, Then from the e-mails recieved over the next 24 hours I will pick a recipient and pass on more information. As for how the above bits get from my hands to yours, well there are four options, pick one: - Pick-up during normal business hours at my office near King & River. - Pick-up most evenings/weekends at my home near Yonge & Eglinton. - Pick up from me at the next GTALUG meeting December 13th. - Pick-up from me at the next Unix Unanimous meeting December 14th. I will be checking my basement for more stuff, and I have started to ask at the office regarding what stuff is kicking around just eating up space. In other words more to come from my end Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 20:21:54 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:21:54 -0500 Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <73FFFC8A49173C4B84C3A466E633A6BF0192FC46-FYE87fLftm9uQ36E7UOhrbahn/p+MhOh@public.gmane.org> References: <73FFFC8A49173C4B84C3A466E633A6BF0192FC46@daebe102.NOE.Nokia.com> Message-ID: Hey Eric, has Checkpoint ported FW-1 to FreeBSD yet or are they still limiting you to IPSO? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Sent: December 1, 2005 1:26 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > Cisco and Check Point are the only 2 I know of as well (I am a CCSE+) > > tcp/500 was only created so their respective clients could communicate > from behind nat > devices without using UDP encapsulation. > > Under Linux, the KAME ipsec-tools work fine, but 500/tcp is not > supported as of > yet, but NAT-T on port 4500 is, which is the real way to support ike > over tcp. > > Nat-t on port 4500 is the way to go, as I know Check Point now supports > it, but > I am currently not sure about Cisco. > > Eric Malenfant, NSA, CCSE+, RHCE > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of ext > Ansar Mohammed > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:05 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > IPSec also uses IP Protocol 50 and 51. > IKE uses udp 500. Some vendors have implemented ike over tcp 500 > (checkpoint and cisco) I don't think ike over tcp is standard. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Byron > > Sonne > > Sent: November 30, 2005 6:24 PM > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > > > Hey Folks, > > > > Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to be > > able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've > > played around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) > > 500/TCP never seems to be open. > > > > I don't need to actually have working communications and info exchange > > > between entities, etc. I'm not interested in creating a viable > network. > > What I do want to get is a server setup that listens on 500/TCP for > > IPSec stuff so I can attempt to tickle responses out of it, and I'm > > not having any luck. > > > > Can anyone give me some pointers? I'd appreciate it! (or a live IP > > listening on 500/TCP that doesn't mind some heavy probing ;) > > > > Regards, > > Byron > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > > to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 20:23:56 2005 From: Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:56 -0600 Subject: IPSec over TCP Message-ID: <73FFFC8A49173C4B84C3A466E633A6BF0192FE39@daebe102.NOE.Nokia.com> IPSO Only.. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of ext Ansar Mohammed Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:22 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP Hey Eric, has Checkpoint ported FW-1 to FreeBSD yet or are they still limiting you to IPSO? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > Eric.Malenfant-xNZwKgViW5gAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Sent: December 1, 2005 1:26 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > Cisco and Check Point are the only 2 I know of as well (I am a CCSE+) > > tcp/500 was only created so their respective clients could communicate > from behind nat devices without using UDP encapsulation. > > Under Linux, the KAME ipsec-tools work fine, but 500/tcp is not > supported as of yet, but NAT-T on port 4500 is, which is the real way > to support ike over tcp. > > Nat-t on port 4500 is the way to go, as I know Check Point now > supports it, but I am currently not sure about Cisco. > > Eric Malenfant, NSA, CCSE+, RHCE > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of ext > Ansar Mohammed > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:05 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > IPSec also uses IP Protocol 50 and 51. > IKE uses udp 500. Some vendors have implemented ike over tcp 500 > (checkpoint and cisco) I don't think ike over tcp is standard. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of > > Byron Sonne > > Sent: November 30, 2005 6:24 PM > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: [TLUG]: IPSec over TCP > > > > Hey Folks, > > > > Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to > > be able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've > > played around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) > > 500/TCP never seems to be open. > > > > I don't need to actually have working communications and info > > exchange > > > between entities, etc. I'm not interested in creating a viable > network. > > What I do want to get is a server setup that listens on 500/TCP for > > IPSec stuff so I can attempt to tickle responses out of it, and I'm > > not having any luck. > > > > Can anyone give me some pointers? I'd appreciate it! (or a live IP > > listening on 500/TCP that doesn't mind some heavy probing ;) > > > > Regards, > > Byron > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > > to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > to > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How > to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 20:31:02 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:31:02 -0500 Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/30/technology/30license.html Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact http://www.nytimes.com/ By STEVE LOHR Published: November 30, 2005 The rules governing the use of most free software programs will be revised for the first time in 15 years, in an open process that begins today. Free software, once regarded as a tiny counterculture in computing, has become a mainstream technology in recent years, led by the rising popularity of programs like the GNU Linux operating system. Industry analysts estimate that the value of hardware and software that use the Linux operating system is $40 billion. And Linux has become a competitive alternative to Microsoft's Windows, especially in corporate data centers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 13:07:02 2005 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:07:02 -0500 Subject: used computer or motherboard In-Reply-To: <1133408944.9067.5.camel@localhost> References: <1133408944.9067.5.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <438EF576.8010209@golden.net> John McGregor wrote: >I've got a used Asus TUS-M integrated motherboard complete with a 1 Ghz >Celeron that you can have. You will have to get memory somewhere else >though -- it takes PC100 / 133. Contact me off list if you want it. > >John > > > I can provide some additional hardware for it. AGP, CDROM, Network and CPU case. I'm pretty sure I have some other items that will work. All are used but are in working condition. Let me know. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 17:14:35 2005 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:14:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact In-Reply-To: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <55727.66.11.182.5.1133457275.squirrel@cbits.ca> Why are they rewriting the licence, what's wrong with version 2 > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/30/technology/30license.html > > Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact > > http://www.nytimes.com/ > > By STEVE LOHR > Published: November 30, 2005 > The rules governing the use of most free software programs will be > revised for the first time in 15 years, in an open process that begins > today. > Free software, once regarded as a tiny counterculture in computing, has > become a mainstream technology in recent years, led by the rising > popularity > of programs like the GNU Linux operating system. > Industry analysts estimate that the value of hardware and software that > use the Linux operating system is $40 billion. And Linux has become a > competitive alternative to Microsoft's Windows, especially in corporate > data > centers. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 21:34:00 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:34:00 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <438E5C55.8070205-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> Message-ID: <438F6C48.7010503@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer available for > use from home. > > Would anybody around be able to help, at least by advise? I at the > moment can not afford to pay much, I prefer not to pay at all. Though I > could possibly offer in return some Linux support... or web development > support, servers administration, etc... > > The pain is stronger than usual since I had a chance to use a powerfull > machine for almost two last years... But it was not mine and must return > it... Well, I'm sure there are plenty of both around, but without knowing your requirements... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 21:42:55 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:42:55 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F6E5F.3010903@rogers.com> Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Seriously, is this true? Some stores do, however you have to consider why they're left out. You may have to sift through a lot of trash, before finding sufficient materials for a computer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 04:21:53 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:21:53 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <438E5C55.8070205-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 09:13:41PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer available for > use from home. > > Would anybody around be able to help, at least by advise? I at the > moment can not afford to pay much, I prefer not to pay at all. Though I > could possibly offer in return some Linux support... or web development > support, servers administration, etc... > > The pain is stronger than usual since I had a chance to use a powerfull > machine for almost two last years... But it was not mine and must return > it... I got - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case (power supply on top of motherboard). I'll trade for DVD-ROM. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 22:53:40 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:53:40 -0500 Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <438E348C.9050705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438E348C.9050705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <438F7EF4.7070609@rogers.com> Excellent answers btw, folks. Nice to know that I'm not crazy and that 500/tcp is as rare as I thought ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 23:20:17 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:20:17 -0500 Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact In-Reply-To: <55727.66.11.182.5.1133457275.squirrel-ZPnsNkHkFjk@public.gmane.org> References: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <55727.66.11.182.5.1133457275.squirrel@cbits.ca> Message-ID: <438F8531.2040003@telly.org> Jason Carson wrote: >Why are they rewriting the licence, what's wrong with version 2 > > IIRC the main update is about patents and other IP that someone might attach to code. The new version is also the first to have been thoroughly vetted by multiple lawyer types and is designed to be applicable in legal systems that aren't American. BTW, nobody is forcing anyone to use the new license. You can always explicitly state in your code that you are licensing your work under Release 2 of the GPL, which will never go away. There's not even any guarantee that the Linux kernel will switch to the new version until the maintainers explicitly say so. Ie, the overhaul _could_ have broad impact, then again maybe not. The principles and intent of the new GPL are not significantly different from the old one; it does, after all, have to please Stallman :-). - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 00:08:39 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:08:39 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <438F4329.4000407-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <438F4329.4000407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: This is a great idea. We had a similar list like this back in the Caribbean. We called it "technorubble". My guess is that it would get pretty big if you open it up (not just for Linux guys). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Stewart C. > Russell > Sent: December 1, 2005 1:39 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Geek gifts > > While I strongly support Colin's idea, the owners of the FreeTOReuse > group appear to be barking > mad, and have been spamming Canadian mailing lists ever since they > walked off with half of FreecycleTO's membership. > > Stewart > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 00:31:16 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:31:16 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <20051201180215.25731.qmail-W5RQQfbthkOB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051201180215.25731.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051202003116.GA2600@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 01:02:15PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol?s recent request > for a computer has started me thinking. Being geeks we > are (almost?) all interested in new/different > technology, and many of us (yes, I am one) have > packrat tendencies. So, in this season of giving/self > improvement let?s see what can be done to help others > and ourselves. I would like to suggest a geek holiday > oriented gift program sort of patterned after the > FreecycleTO / FreeTOreuse projects that you can read > about here: Main problem with this kind of thing is that it cost more in logistics than actual products that we're trying to give away. Every time I go downtown, it's $10 in gas. If you can find someone who is in downtown and will hold this stuffs, then people can bring junk to and/or pick up junk from. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 00:46:55 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 01 Dec 2005 19:46:55 -0500 Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact In-Reply-To: <438F8531.2040003-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <55727.66.11.182.5.1133457275.squirrel@cbits.ca> <438F8531.2040003@telly.org> Message-ID: Evan Leibovitch writes: > BTW, nobody is forcing anyone to use the new license. You can always > explicitly state in your code that you are licensing your work under Release > 2 of the GPL, which will never go away. There's not even any guarantee that > the Linux kernel will switch to the new version until the maintainers > explicitly say so. That's a good point. The COPYING file from the Linux kernel (2.6.11) states: Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel is concerned is _this_ particular version of the license (ie v2, not v2.2 or v3.x or whatever), unless explicitly otherwise stated. This is in contrast to a lot of other free software which often says something like GPLv2 or later. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 02:53:05 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:53:05 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051201042153.GA3524-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051202025305.GA8077@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 11:21:53PM -0500, William Park wrote: >I got > - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, > video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case (power supply on top of > motherboard). >I'll trade for DVD-ROM. If zb doesn't have a DVD-ROM to trade you, but wants your system, I'll provide the DVD-ROM to complete the trade. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:05:19 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:05:19 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <20051202003116.GA2600-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051201180215.25731.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20051202003116.GA2600@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <438FB9EF.707@sympatico.ca> William Park wrote: > > Main problem with this kind of thing is that it cost more in logistics > than actual products that we're trying to give away. Every time I go > downtown, it's $10 in gas. Well, use your local freecycle group, then: cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:03:53 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:03:53 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051202025305.GA8077-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051202025305.GA8077@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <438FB999.10201@istop.com> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 11:21:53PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > >>I got >> - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, >> video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case (power supply on top of >> motherboard). >>I'll trade for DVD-ROM. > > > If zb doesn't have a DVD-ROM to trade you, but wants your system, I'll > provide the DVD-ROM to complete the trade. Ha! I would never ever expect that sort of reaction to my message! Communities are the real people in this life. Unfortunately, most around us do not live within them. I have already made some arrangements. But do not have yet the final confirmation from one person. I will also remember about the offer of you both. I want to thank you everyone who took some care of the problem :) Kind regards, zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:14:37 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:14:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <20051202003116.GA2600-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051202003116.GA2600@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051202031437.44905.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- William Park wrote: > On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 01:02:15PM -0500, Colin > McGregor wrote: > > Zbigniew Koziol?s recent > request > > for a computer has started me thinking. Being > geeks we > > are (almost?) all interested in new/different > > technology, and many of us (yes, I am one) have > > packrat tendencies. So, in this season of > giving/self > > improvement let?s see what can be done to help > others > > and ourselves. I would like to suggest a geek > holiday > > oriented gift program sort of patterned after the > > FreecycleTO / FreeTOreuse projects that you can > read > > about here: > > Main problem with this kind of thing is that it cost > more in logistics > than actual products that we're trying to give away. > Every time I go > downtown, it's $10 in gas. No the idea is that the person receiving the item must got to a place and at a time that is ok for the person giving the item away. So for example the items I am giving away are small/light so I have no qualms about taking them from where they are now (home) to office, or GTALug meeting, or UU meeting, or to other places I normally go. On the other hand if someone asked me to take these items out to say Mississauga, my response would be tough, I don't have any plans to go to Mississauga, and I am not going that far out of my way to give stuff away... If the item is big, bulky, and/or heavy the giver might say something like "You must come to my office between 9:30 AM and 4:30 PM or you don't get the item". The goal here is to clear out stuff that your not going to make use of and make it available to someone who can put the item to a productive use. Everyone wins. > If you can find someone who is in downtown and will > hold this stuffs, > then people can bring junk to and/or pick up junk > from. Not an issue... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:32:32 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:32:32 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <20051202031437.44905.qmail-N/0UzftCW16B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051202031437.44905.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <438FC050.3020002@telly.org> Oh, to have a place in Toronto like FreeGeek in Portland (www.freegeek.org), with a business and community model that every computer recycling program should dare to emulate. I've never seen anything better. Their program is that you earn a free (refurbished) computer in return for putting in 24 hours of volunteer time, helping put together computers for others. When I was there the place was bustling. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:41:11 2005 From: tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org (Mailing List) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:41:11 -0500 Subject: Does TLUG have a discount with an ISP? Message-ID: Does anyone know if we have a group discount with a ADSL ISP? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 04:17:50 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:17:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Does TLUG have a discount with an ISP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051202041750.53395.qmail@web88210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Mailing List wrote: > Does anyone know if we have a group discount with a > ADSL ISP? As far as I know not at present. But that could be arranged easily enough via the Toronto Free-Net, if you would like I would be happy enough to poke at that (mini disclaimer, I am on the Toronto Free-Net board). Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 06:37:06 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 01:37:06 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts In-Reply-To: <438FC050.3020002-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051202031437.44905.qmail@web88211.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <438FC050.3020002@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512012237k10405b5dqd2971feb5c47d5bc@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Oh, to have a place in Toronto like FreeGeek in Portland > (www.freegeek.org), with a business and community model that every > computer recycling program should dare to emulate. I've never seen > anything better. Funny how often that thought shows up. The thing about the grass being greener on the other side of the fence? Lol. When it comes to f/loss (spearheaded by linux), the "grass" really is greener. f/loss is wholesome. > Their program is that you earn a free (refurbished) computer in return > for putting in 24 hours of volunteer time, helping put together > computers for others. When I was there the place was bustling. Proof. And it's happening all over the world. :-) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 06:40:11 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 01:40:11 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <438FB999.10201-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051202025305.GA8077@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <438FB999.10201@istop.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512012240g6997c89fi1db17cac26a67b2c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Ha! > > I would never ever expect that sort of reaction to my message! > > Communities are the real people in this life. Unfortunately, most around > us do not live within them. [snip] > Kind regards, > zb. Watching this thread was the best early Christmas present I ever got. :-) -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 06:48:15 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 01:48:15 -0500 Subject: Does TLUG have a discount with an ISP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/1/05, Mailing List wrote: > Does anyone know if we have a group discount with a ADSL ISP? Take a peek at ; I believe there's something described there. It's not a "super cheap" deal; it's more along the lines of getting something that would normally qualify as a "business" ADSL connection for a "not unreasonable consumer price." Unfortunately, many of us have higher expectations than the typical consumer. After all, with Linux, I can readily set up a server at home that does things like: - Providing web server services - News feed - File storage/transfer - CVS/Subversion/Darcs/... server - My own IMAP server/mail server And I really want that sorta stuff to be accessible from where ever I might be, including being able to read home mail when at work. That may not have the same bandwidth peaks as downloading pirated videos, but reliability expectations go up a tad, and there's no reason not to hope for 24x7... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 06:51:01 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 01:51:01 -0500 Subject: CSIA -- an invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd) Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512012251s129e0899h225c9a271f653be6@mail.gmail.com> Passing this one along. If there's interest (and/or consent from the board(s)? of/) from *TLUG, I'll offer to interact with the CSIA on behalf of *TLUG. I've recieved official statements to do so already for two other organizations. (Read as: I'd really like to have TLUG as a home base - it's the best way to get the word out: The fall of the Canadian Gov't has given the public a reprieve from Bill C-60. The story's not finished though - the draft ammendments are already written for starters.) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Russell McOrmond Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: [discuss] Canadian Software Innovation Alliance --an invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd) To: General Copyright Discussions Cc: discuss-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org, CANadian OPENsource Education and Research , Universal Access Canada Just forwarding an announcement of CSIA... Note: I strongly endorse the coalition. That said, I have a problem with the confusion caused by the line "Open source innovators need to support Bill C-60's support of open source innovators". What I believe Damien means is that C-60 isn't as bad as the USA's DMCA, or as bad as our primarily foreign opposition (CAAST, CRIA, CMPDA) wants to make it. I am unaware of any *support* for FLOSS in C-60, nor do I agree that C-60 continues "to permit reverse engineering, inter-operability and security research" in situations that touch "technical measures" as (ab)used by copyright holders. Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:59:20 -0500 From: Damien Fox Subject: Canadian Software Innovation Alliance --an invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young Re: Canadian Software Innovation Alliance --an invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young Good Afternoon! Canada's open-source professionals and open-source advocates are coming together to make sure Canada's copyright law continues to support creativity and encourage innovation. Content industry lobbyists are calling for new controls that threaten important activities such as the right to reverse engineer, the right to create interoperable software and the right to conduct security research. These rights are crucial to software innovators and need to be guaranteed. The government has fallen, but the draft copyright legislation has already been written, the process that created it is still in place, and the interest groups pushing for stronger copyright laws continue to demand more control. Bill C-60 proposed to grant copyright owners control over those who would circumvent technological protection measures (TPMs) for the purpose of infringing copyright. While there was much in Bill C-60 to oppose, Bill C-60 supported the rights of open source innovators by continuing to permit reverse engineering, inter-operability and security research. Opponents of Bill C-60 say that it did not do enough, and that Canada needs to import the American Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Open source innovators need to support Bill C-60's support of open source innovators. Individual professors, lone companies, solitary consultants and local user groups all understand the reality of how TPMs work and the anti-competitive effects of strong anti-circumvention laws. Alone, these stakeholders face challenges getting their message to elected politicians and policy makers. These stakeholders need to come together to speak with a stronger voice. The Canadian Software Innovation Alliance has been started by Bob Young, co-founder of Red Hat, to help provide that voice. With your support, the CSIA can make sure that Canada remains fertile ground for open source development, that the Canadian open source community continues to thrive, that and Canada's computing and communications resources are as accessible and secure as possible. Over the next few days, the Canadian Software Innovation Alliance will begin adding members to the coalition. Several companies and organizations have already signed up: if you think your company, institution or organization has an interest in making sure open source software remains a powerful and effective tool, get in touch with us to find out more or to join the CSIA. Joining the CSIA is voluntary, does not cost any money, and does not require much of a time commitment, unless you choose to help with the activities of the organization. We are hard at work preparing a web site and draft White Paper. Once they are available, we will send around a further e-mail to provide additional contact information and the web site address. In the meantime, please distribute this e-mail to anyone you think might be interested in joining the coalition, might know others that are interested in joining the coalition, or might like to help the CSIA, but not join. The CSIA is being formed to promote the interests of Canada's open-source community and to encourage innovation and competition. Bob Young from Red Hat is the lead spokesperson for the organization. The Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic (CIPPIC), the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and Online Rights Canada (ORC) are working together to get the CSIA started and to help Canada's open-source community come together. Neither CIPPIC, EFF nor ORC will be a member of the CSIA, nor have any authority over the positions, statements or membership of the CSIA. Sincerely, Damien Fox Damien Fox, Copyright Outreach Coordinator, CIPPIC ahdfox isat mac.com 416-707-2204 Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law 57 Louis Pasteur St. Ottawa, Ontario K1N 6N5 http://www.cippic.ca _______________________________________________ discuss mailing list discuss-oIpuSOuHPwhe04CwrWwdBg at public.gmane.org http://lists.canopener.ca/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Scott Elcomb Fight might with Right. Your Right. 2375+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 http://KillBillC60.ca Sign--> http://digital-copyright.ca/petition/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 09:57:01 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 04:57:01 -0500 Subject: phpAds Message-ID: Anyone have any phpAds experience? If so, what is your recommendations on phpAds or another PHP based Classifieds system? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csmillie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 14:42:40 2005 From: csmillie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin Smillie) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:42:40 -0500 Subject: phpAds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/2/05, teddymills wrote: Anyone have any phpAds experience? > > If so, what is your recommendations on phpAds or another PHP based > Classifieds system? > > Isn't phpAds a banner ad servering system? Or are there 2 phpAd products? Not sure your intent but I've used phpAds as a module within Mambo/Joomla before. It works relatively well for smaller sites. Bigger sites tend to use OAS from 24/7 you can find details here: http://www.247realmedia.com/products/oas.html?navSource=homePage Ad agencies don't tend to like the smaller ad servers. If you're really looking for a classified system using ( ie Craigslists ) I'm only familar with Geoclassifieds. Its not OSS but is relatively cheap. Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 14:46:21 2005 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:46:21 -0500 Subject: phpAds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4386c5b20512020646qf4aee69sdf6d37f2b2623222@mail.gmail.com> I think you're referring to PHPAdsNew, the banner posting and tracking system? http://phpadsnew.com/two/ This is a fabulous open source package that my company uses for about a dozen clients. It's highly reliable and has more than enough features for our needs. There's a little learning curve, but the developers provide good documentation. All in all, I like it. Cheers, Aaron. On 12/2/05, Colin Smillie wrote: > On 12/2/05, teddymills wrote: > Anyone have any phpAds experience? > > > > > > > > If so, what is your recommendations on phpAds or another PHP based > Classifieds system? > > > Isn't phpAds a banner ad servering system? Or are there 2 phpAd products? > Not sure your intent but I've used phpAds as a module within Mambo/Joomla > before. It works relatively well for smaller sites. Bigger sites tend to > use OAS from 24/7 you can find details here: > > http://www.247realmedia.com/products/oas.html?navSource=homePage > > Ad agencies don't tend to like the smaller ad servers. > > If you're really looking for a classified system using ( ie Craigslists ) > I'm only familar with Geoclassifieds. Its not OSS but is relatively cheap. > > Colin > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 16:11:13 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:11:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Geek gifts - Digital Camera Message-ID: <20051202161113.73374.qmail@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Let me add to the stuff on offer (and help clear out closet) here. I have a digital camera to offer, and before I get snowed under with "I want it!" e-mails let me explain why, even though last time I cheched the camera worked, you might not want THIS camera: - The resolution of the camera is 160 x 120 pixels. In an era when 1 Mega-pixel cameras are considered old-time this camera is less than 1/50 of a Mega-pixel. - The (non-expandable) storage in this camera will allow for about 6 pictures before you have to unload the pictures. - The camera uses a proprietary serial cable in order to connect it to a PC (Mac users need not bother with this camera). - The camera does not have a flash so you will need to take all pictures outdoors or in places with VERY strong artificial light. - The camera was done in a joint venture between Mattel and U.S. kids cable TV network Nickelodeon, which means some other oddities: - The camera is purple with lime green, silver and black trim. - The software required to support this camera is Windows 95 or Windows 98 only. - When running the software pops up images and voices of Nickelodeon cartoon characters. - The camera by default saves all images in a proprietary format, and you must take extra steps in order to export images in .jpg format. The camera does come with the original install CD-ROM, lime green serial cable, a small user manual and a 9V battery (not sure how much life is left in that battery). A number of the thumbnail pictures on my website (http://www.mcgregor.org) were done with this camera, so while the resolution leaves a LOT to be desired, the quality isn't bad. Pick-up options would be: - Pick-up during normal business hours at my office near King & River. - Pick-up most evenings/weekends at my home near Yonge & Eglinton. - Pick up from me at the next GTALUG meeting December 13th. - Pick-up from me at the next Unix Unanimous meeting December 14th. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 16:30:09 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 11:30:09 -0500 Subject: [kwlug] meeting announcement Message-ID: <1133541009.16240.1223.camel@holden.weait.net> Hi All, Good News! The wilds of Kitchener-Waterloo have finally got this new-fangled electricity! That means we can hold a KWLUG Meeting. You TLUG-folks are welcome, of course. You know, just in case you get kidnapped and dropped this far out in the hinterlands... The kwlug web site is located (completely unpredictably) at: http://www.kwlug.org/ see the web site for other details. The KWLUG is brought to you by the letters G, N and U and the number _pi_ Monday 05 December 2005: This meeting will be hosted by Paul N. * Cross compilers: Presented by rday * Gifts for your Linux Geeks: In the interest of self-serving presentations and rampant consumerism December will be a Geek Toys presentation. We'll show and lust after the Linux-related, or otherwise really geeky gifts that are available this year. Expect to see lots of shiney marketing information, and hear barely restrained gasps of "Nevermind the kids; I'm keeping that for myself!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 17:57:20 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <438E348C.9050705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438E348C.9050705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051202175720.GH3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 06:23:56PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > Hey Folks, > > Seems that 500/UDP is the main focus for IPSec. However, I need to be > able to detect IPSec running over TCP, and of all the things I've played > around with (gear at work running IPSec, swan, isakmpd, etc.) 500/TCP > never seems to be open. > > I don't need to actually have working communications and info exchange > between entities, etc. I'm not interested in creating a viable network. > What I do want to get is a server setup that listens on 500/TCP for > IPSec stuff so I can attempt to tickle responses out of it, and I'm not > having any luck. > > Can anyone give me some pointers? I'd appreciate it! (or a live IP > listening on 500/TCP that doesn't mind some heavy probing ;) I believe IPsec as per the standard runs on port udp/500 and uses protocol esp and/or ah for key exchange. I don't think it uses any tcp at all since to do so would add requirements to traffic such as udp which do not desire and would potentially waste bandwidth and other resources. Many VPN systems other then IPsec do run over tcp but htey are not IPsec. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 17:59:46 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:59:46 -0500 Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact In-Reply-To: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0-MlQI6EnZl2wPJunrU1OSJXVPGwe2822SptRUGzx/cGc@public.gmane.org> References: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20051202175946.GI3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 03:31:02PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/30/technology/30license.html > > Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact > > http://www.nytimes.com/ > > By STEVE LOHR > Published: November 30, 2005 > The rules governing the use of most free software programs will be > revised for the first time in 15 years, in an open process that begins > today. > Free software, once regarded as a tiny counterculture in computing, has > become a mainstream technology in recent years, led by the rising popularity > of programs like the GNU Linux operating system. > Industry analysts estimate that the value of hardware and software that > use the Linux operating system is $40 billion. And Linux has become a > competitive alternative to Microsoft's Windows, especially in corporate data > centers. They are _not_ overhauling the linux license. They are working on making a next version of the GPL (v3) but it will not apply to the linux kernel (which is explicitly GPL v2 only, not v2 or later as most GPL licensed code state). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 18:01:06 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:01:06 -0500 Subject: Overhaul of Linux License Could Have Broad Impact In-Reply-To: <438F8531.2040003-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <001001c5f6b6$2819fe00$0405a8c0@northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> <55727.66.11.182.5.1133457275.squirrel@cbits.ca> <438F8531.2040003@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051202180106.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 06:20:17PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > IIRC the main update is about patents and other IP that someone might > attach to code. The new version is also the first to have been > thoroughly vetted by multiple lawyer types and is designed to be > applicable in legal systems that aren't American. > > BTW, nobody is forcing anyone to use the new license. You can always > explicitly state in your code that you are licensing your work under > Release 2 of the GPL, which will never go away. There's not even any > guarantee that the Linux kernel will switch to the new version until the > maintainers explicitly say so. > > Ie, the overhaul _could_ have broad impact, then again maybe not. The > principles and intent of the new GPL are not significantly different > from the old one; it does, after all, have to please Stallman :-). Some purists find Stallman to have screwed up licenses lately though such as the GNU documentation license which Debian has declared non-free by their standards for example. They hope to avoid the same kind of stupid issues with the GPL v3. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 18:23:41 2005 From: jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Jon Thiele) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:23:41 -0500 Subject: FW:MythTV Presentation Message-ID: <00ab01c5f76d$85e59a00$c601a8c0@plex31> Does anyone know where I can grab a copy of this presentation??? The website mentioned is semi-down and Paul isn't answering my emails. I googled the document name without success. Thanx. _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Paul Mora Sent: 3-Oct-05 11:26 PM To: TLUG Mailing List; talk-Q3LYrvjeUVfMLq2q1+GOoQ at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: MythTV Presentation Hello Everyone. Thanks to all who came out to IBM for last week's NewTLUG meeting on building a PVR. I had a great time presenting, and you were all a fantastic audience. By popular request, I've made my presentation slides available via the following URL: http://www.mora.ca/newtlug/mythtvtalk.pdf Enjoy! pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:15:33 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:15:33 -0500 Subject: How to mount SD card as RW Message-ID: <4390AB65.2070407@gmail.com> Hi, I've got a USB multi-card reader, but when I put in an SD card, it mounts is a read-only file system. The tab is not set to read-only, and I am able to read-write when it is in my Palm Tungsten. I am using Ubuntu Hoary, and it auto mounts to /media// (in my case: /media/SD256/). There is no entry in my fstab... should there be one? Are removable drive settings stored somewhere other than fstab? Thanks for any help! -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:29:50 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:29:50 -0500 Subject: How to mount SD card as RW In-Reply-To: <4390AB65.2070407-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4390AB65.2070407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512021529.50360.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On December 2, 2005 03:15 pm, Steve wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a USB multi-card reader, but when I put in an SD card, it > mounts is a read-only file system. The tab is not set to read-only, and > I am able to read-write when it is in my Palm Tungsten. > > I am using Ubuntu Hoary, and it auto mounts to /media// (in my > case: /media/SD256/). > > There is no entry in my fstab... should there be one? Are removable > drive settings stored somewhere other than fstab? > > Thanks for any help! > > -Steve. Add this to the bottom of your /etc/fstab file, substituting the sda1 for whatever your card shows up as. Insert the card and use dmesg to see the device name. This works for all USB media I have used. USB Flash & USB HDD & SD Cards. /dev/sda1 /media/sda1 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0 There is a thread here with someone having a similar problem under hoary. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=14908&highlight=sd+card+rw Any reason you are not upgrading to breezy? Most things work out of the install with no issues. ( Much better than hoary ) -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 00:46:18 2005 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (J. Qiang Li) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 16:46:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: apache mod_proxy loading problem Message-ID: <20051203004618.62824.qmail@web54714.mail.yahoo.com> hi,all running Apache/2.0.54 on debian unstable. I am trying to enable mod_proxy but i got this error: # apache2ctl -t Syntax error on line 1 of /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/proxy_http.load: Cannot load /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_proxy_http.so into server: /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_proxy_http.so: undefined symbol: ap_proxy_ssl_enable the .so file do exist in that location. what is wrong ? TIA, James. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 04:02:08 2005 From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:02:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: How to mount SD card as RW In-Reply-To: <4390AB65.2070407-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4390AB65.2070407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87r78uesld.fsf@gmail.com> Steve> Hi, I've got a USB multi-card reader, but when I put in an SD Steve> card, it mounts is a read-only file system. The tab is not set to Steve> read-only, and I am able to read-write when it is in my Palm Steve> Tungsten. Steve> I am using Ubuntu Hoary, and it auto mounts to /media// Steve> (in my case: /media/SD256/). What version of the kernel? There was some confusion about mounting USB storage devices in 2.4 and then early in 2.6. I think for a while you had to change something in your kernel compile-time configuration to make it work. I've looked in my /boot/config-* but I can't find anything; of course I am at 2.6.12 now and it has long "just worked", at least for me. Googling for some of the words I used should turn up something. -- A true pessimist won't be discouraged by a little success. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 17:28:48 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:28:48 -0500 Subject: Icon to launch app as root? Message-ID: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> Is there a way to modify an application icon so that it will launch as root, and therefore prompt for password? I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (Gnome), and want to modify an app's icon so that it will be "sudo ". I tried changing the Commandline in the icon's properties to this, but that doesn't work. I suspect either it is very easy, or impossible... :-) Thanks for any help. -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 17:45:33 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <4391D5D0.6050700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4391D9BD.7070006@utoronto.ca> Steve wrote: > Is there a way to modify an application icon so that it will launch as > root, and therefore prompt for password? > > I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (Gnome), and want to modify an app's icon so that > it will be "sudo ". I tried changing the Commandline in the > icon's properties to this, but that doesn't work. > > I suspect either it is very easy, or impossible... :-) > > Thanks for any help. > > -Steve. I think what you want is gksu. In KDE I use kdesu. gksu is the gnome equivalent. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 19:05:49 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: Icon to launch app as root? In-Reply-To: <4391D5D0.6050700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4391EC8D.9030601@rogers.com> Steve wrote: > Is there a way to modify an application icon so that it will launch as > root, and therefore prompt for password? > > I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (Gnome), and want to modify an app's icon so that > it will be "sudo ". I tried changing the Commandline in the > icon's properties to this, but that doesn't work. > > I suspect either it is very easy, or impossible... :-) It's easy. Right click on the desktop and create a new link to application. On the application tab, click on the Advanced Options button. It's in there. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 19:06:49 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:06:49 -0500 Subject: Icon to launch app as root? In-Reply-To: <4391D5D0.6050700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4391ECC9.8000807@rogers.com> Steve wrote: > Is there a way to modify an application icon so that it will launch as > root, and therefore prompt for password? > > I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (Gnome), and want to modify an app's icon so that > it will be "sudo ". I tried changing the Commandline in the > icon's properties to this, but that doesn't work. > > I suspect either it is very easy, or impossible... :-) Sorry, my previous reply was about KDE. If you're using Gnome, it's probably impossible. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 19:30:35 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:30:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? Message-ID: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> I have a client of mine with a PowerComputing PowerTower Pro 225 (a mac clone) with a dead SCSI cd burner. Option one, find a SCSI CD drive and replace. Option two, use one of the available PCI slots and install an ATA (EIDE) controller and an ATAPI CD drive. Option 3, share the CD drive on an old PowerMac 6100 across the network. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 19:44:17 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 14:44:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <4391F25B.7090106-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <17c359fc0512031144w1c6095f9l443b7e3f4635b716@mail.gmail.com> You'll want to check out the mailing lists on LowEndMac.com - The MacCanada one in particular is good for local trading. -Leigh On 12/3/05, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I have a client of mine with a PowerComputing PowerTower Pro 225 (a mac > clone) with a dead SCSI cd burner. > > Option one, find a SCSI CD drive and replace. > > Option two, use one of the available PCI slots and install an ATA (EIDE) > controller and an ATAPI CD drive. > > Option 3, share the CD drive on an old PowerMac 6100 across the network. > > Ivan. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 23:44:13 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:44:13 -0500 Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <4391F25B.7090106-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20051203234413.GA2383@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 02:30:35PM -0500, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I have a client of mine with a PowerComputing PowerTower Pro 225 (a mac > clone) with a dead SCSI cd burner. > > Option one, find a SCSI CD drive and replace. Best option. > > Option two, use one of the available PCI slots and install an ATA (EIDE) > controller and an ATAPI CD drive. Option 2.2: If his motherboard has SATA, then I've seen SATA cd-rw (Plextor, I think). > Option 3, share the CD drive on an old PowerMac 6100 across the network. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 23:56:43 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:56:43 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants Message-ID: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> Today's Toronto Star has an article about computer recycling project which got $200k from Ontario Trillium foundation. Recent threads on "recycling" and "geek gift", gives all of us some food for thought. For those of you who have more vested interested in this kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something under GTALUG Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 00:55:31 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:55:31 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051203235643.GB2383-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > Today's Toronto Star has an article about computer recycling project > which got $200k from Ontario Trillium foundation. > > Recent threads on "recycling" and "geek gift", gives all of us some food > for thought. For those of you who have more vested interested in this > kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something under GTALUG > Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) I'm curious. How does this work? What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? The Toronto Solid Waste Drop-off Depots accept old computers too. What does the City of Toronto do with the old computers? From the article in The Star, since August 2004, they have diverted 10 tonnes from the landfills and given out 50 computers. Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? Or ship them to China for recycling? Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 01:53:42 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:53:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another dead power supply Message-ID: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> For the second time in as many years, a power supply in one of my computers has died. The previous power supply death took out every item in the box with it. This time, there was some sort of over-protection device that prevented the power supply from damaging anything. Apparently some power supplies have a zener diode across the output that clamps the output voltage to about 5.1 volts. When the output voltage attempts to rise, the zener conducts and gets hot. This is sensed by some sort of temperature sensor, which then shuts down the supply. Both these power supply failures were white box units from OTA on College Street. The first one they eventually gave me something of a deal to replace the contents of the box, but only after some serious arguing. (The OTA manager argued that the failure occurred because I didn't have a surge protector on that circuit, which is nonsense. I've designed switching power supplies, so I'm aware of the importance of output protection, and that supply obviously didn't have it.) The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of protection circuit on the output. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 02:14:54 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:14:54 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43923E83.1060006-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 07:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > William Park wrote: > >Today's Toronto Star has an article about computer recycling project > >which got $200k from Ontario Trillium foundation. > > > >Recent threads on "recycling" and "geek gift", gives all of us some food > >for thought. For those of you who have more vested interested in this > >kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something under GTALUG > >Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) > > I'm curious. How does this work? > What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? I have no idea. That's why I said "those with more vested interest". :-) You really have to know the ins/outs of Gov grants. You don't care about computers. You care only about Gov grants. The computers are just pretext. > > The Toronto Solid Waste Drop-off Depots accept old computers too. > What does the City of Toronto do with the old computers? > > From the article in The Star, since August 2004, they have diverted 10 > tonnes from the landfills and given out 50 computers. Yes, math don't add up. But, neither does Ontario Trillium which, by its mandate, gives away $100Million every year. > > Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? > Or ship them to China for recycling? Now, that's racist statement, Meng. Why on earth do they don't with our old junk, when all the new hardwares are now made in China? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 02:23:24 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:23:24 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 08:53:42PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of > protection circuit on the output. What brand of power supply are you using now or recommend? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 02:40:37 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:40:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051204022324.GB3132-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Right now, I have a generic no-name power supply in there as a temporary replacement. Hopefully it will last long enough until I have a chance to get something reliable. I have heard that Antec power supplies are reasonably reliable. They start at about $60 at Canada Computes. The product description includes output protection against short circuits and overvoltage. No doubt other people on this list will have ideas on suitable supplies. But it's a reasonable bet that a $20 generic power supply is lower quality than a $60 name brand. Peter > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 08:53:42PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of >> protection circuit on the output. > > What brand of power supply are you using now or recommend? > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 02:55:11 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 21:55:11 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204021454.GA3132-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43925A8F.2070804@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > I have no idea. That's why I said "those with more vested interest". > :-) You really have to know the ins/outs of Gov grants. You don't care > about computers. You care only about Gov grants. The computers are > just pretext. That's what I thought. >>Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? >>Or ship them to China for recycling? > > > Now, that's racist statement, Meng. Why on earth do they don't with our > old junk, when all the new hardwares are now made in China? I didn't mean to racist but China is the dumping ground for computer waste. Google for "recycling computers china" and the 1st hit is http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2002/disposable_planet/waste/chinese_workshop/default.stm I apologize for the phrasing but what I want to know is what does the City of Toronto do with the computers? If these organizations claim that they are saving tonnes of toxic waste from landfills, then where are and who owns/operates those landfills? Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 02:56:41 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 21:56:41 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <43925AE9.30009@pppoe.ca> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of > protection circuit on the output. How do you identify a protection circuit on the output(other than reading the specs)? Other than a good power supply and a surge protector, what would you recommend for a computer on 24/7? Is there some protection available like if a fan or CPU started to fry? Pardon my ignorance but I'd like to know :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:03:25 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:03:25 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051204030325.GA3272@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 09:40:37PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort > >> of protection circuit on the output. > > > > What brand of power supply are you using now or recommend? > > Right now, I have a generic no-name power supply in there as a > temporary replacement. Hopefully it will last long enough until I have > a chance to get something reliable. > > I have heard that Antec power supplies are reasonably reliable. They > start at about $60 at Canada Computes. The product description > includes output protection against short circuits and overvoltage. > > No doubt other people on this list will have ideas on suitable > supplies. But it's a reasonable bet that a $20 generic power supply > is lower quality than a $60 name brand. But, thing is, even I wouldn't know what to look for inside of these thing. How can I tell them apart at the store? - is heavier the better? - shiny label with various certifications? Can you test them non-destructively? I'm thinking, we can turn this into TLUG project. We all bring our (spare) power supplies to get tested, and we'll publish our results on website. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:17:11 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 22:17:11 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051204030325.GA3272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204030325.GA3272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43925FB7.1090805@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > But, thing is, even I wouldn't know what to look for inside of these > thing. How can I tell them apart at the store? > - is heavier the better? > - shiny label with various certifications? > > Can you test them non-destructively? I'm thinking, we can turn this > into TLUG project. We all bring our (spare) power supplies to get > tested, and we'll publish our results on website. This may give you some ideas :-) http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1014 Regards Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:50:24 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:50:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051204030325.GA3272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204030325.GA3272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <50964.207.188.88.84.1133668224.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > > But, thing is, even I wouldn't know what to look for inside of these > thing. How can I tell them apart at the store? > - is heavier the better? > - shiny label with various certifications? You can't really tell by looking at a power supply. (Brief diversion into 'You Can't Tell a Book By Looking at the Cover', by Bo Diddley..) The certifications (CSA, UL) are simply there to establish that the thing is not a hazard to your health. They have nothing to do with whether it will function correctly. So as long as contains flaming debris and is unlikely to electrocute you, the certification people are happy. If you can read schematics that would tell you something about the overvoltage protection, but schematics aren't generally available. Overvoltage protection isn't going to show up in any way until the previous stage goes bezerk, so there is no real way to determine how effective it is. Think of it like an air bag in a car - you assume the thing is there, and you hope it works correctly when it's needed. So I think you have to stick with name brands and rely on their specifications. Peter > Can you test them non-destructively? I'm thinking, we can turn this > into TLUG project. We all bring our (spare) power supplies to get > tested, and we'll publish our results on website. > > -- > William Park , Toronto, Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:00:06 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:00:06 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204021454.GA3132-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 3, 2005 21:14, William Park wrote: > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 07:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > > Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or > > south? Or ship them to China for recycling? > > Now, that's racist statement, Meng. Why on earth do they don't > with our old junk, when all the new hardwares are now made in > China? It's not a racist statement at all. It's the reality. I recall reading an article a few years ago about what happens to the electronics equipment that we dispose of. It gets shipped to China for recylcing for three reasons: 1. cheap labour to dismantle the equipment, 2. no labour standards to be speak of so companies are free to exploit people in many ways, e.g. paying them a pittance for working long hours six to seven days a week, not providing any sort of safety equipment, and of course, not telling them what sorts of toxins they were being exposed to, 3. no environment protection laws to speak of. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:25:06 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:25:06 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 11:00:06PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On December 3, 2005 21:14, William Park wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 07:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > > > Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or > > > south? Or ship them to China for recycling? > > > > Now, that's racist statement, Meng. Why on earth do they don't > > with our old junk, when all the new hardwares are now made in > > China? > > It's not a racist statement at all. It's the reality. I recall reading > an article a few years ago about what happens to the electronics > equipment that we dispose of. It gets shipped to China for recylcing > for three reasons: > > 1. cheap labour to dismantle the equipment, > > 2. no labour standards to be speak of so companies are free to exploit > people in many ways, e.g. paying them a pittance for working long > hours six to seven days a week, not providing any sort of safety > equipment, and of course, not telling them what sorts of toxins they > were being exposed to, > > 3. no environment protection laws to speak of. There must be something else. I don't understand why China has to import any OLD electronics, when they make all the NEW hardwares. Unless there is some reciprocal treaty, ie. they get access to our market, in return, they have to take some of our old junks. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:27:24 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:27:24 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204021454.GA3132-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/3/05, William Park wrote: > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 07:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > > William Park wrote: > > >Today's Toronto Star has an article about computer recycling project > > >which got $200k from Ontario Trillium foundation. > > > > > >Recent threads on "recycling" and "geek gift", gives all of us some food > > >for thought. For those of you who have more vested interested in this > > >kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something under GTALUG > > >Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) > > > > I'm curious. How does this work? > > What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? > > I have no idea. That's why I said "those with more vested interest". > :-) You really have to know the ins/outs of Gov grants. You don't care > about computers. You care only about Gov grants. The computers are > just pretext. If the computers are "mere pretext," then that certainly *wouldn't* see my support at the board. > > The Toronto Solid Waste Drop-off Depots accept old computers too. > > What does the City of Toronto do with the old computers? > > > > From the article in The Star, since August 2004, they have diverted 10 > > tonnes from the landfills and given out 50 computers. > > Yes, math don't add up. But, neither does Ontario Trillium which, by > its mandate, gives away $100Million every year. > > Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? > > Or ship them to China for recycling? > > Now, that's racist statement, Meng. Why on earth do they don't with our > old junk, when all the new hardwares are now made in China? What's racist about identifying a particular country whose government has set up policies that essentially involve poisoning their subjects (I'm not sure "citizen" is quite the right word) by importing and burning the remains of North American computers? Proposals for computer "recycling" that hide under the carpet what happens to the bits that *aren't* reusable are disingenous at best, though most would prefer to call the digging implement a digging implement and characterize it as dishonesty. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:37:58 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:37:58 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204042506.GA3441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/3/05, William Park wrote: > > It's not a racist statement at all. It's the reality. I recall reading > > an article a few years ago about what happens to the electronics > > equipment that we dispose of. It gets shipped to China for recylcing > > for three reasons: > > > > 1. cheap labour to dismantle the equipment, > > > > 2. no labour standards to be speak of so companies are free to exploit > > people in many ways, e.g. paying them a pittance for working long > > hours six to seven days a week, not providing any sort of safety > > equipment, and of course, not telling them what sorts of toxins they > > were being exposed to, > > > > 3. no environment protection laws to speak of. > > There must be something else. I don't understand why China has to > import any OLD electronics, when they make all the NEW hardwares. > Unless there is some reciprocal treaty, ie. they get access to our > market, in return, they have to take some of our old junks. It's JUST BUSINESS. Remember earlier in the thread where you suggested keenness at how people were getting money from the Trillium fund for "computer recycling" even though the numbers didn't add up? That happened because someone figured that they could extract money from a government program irrespective of the ethics thereof. What is happening in China is that people figure they can GET MONEY if they accept shiploads of other peoples' waste. They got paid, and so shipped in the trash. It wasn't anything about "reciprocity;" it's that someone got paid, and then paid off the right people in the government to make sure the trash went to Guiyu, evidently a place they were willing to see poisoned. It's not racism, it's not reciprocity, it's not any number of things that might start with "r." It's just business. Nigeria apparently also does much the same, albeit with the (totally irrelevant) difference that they don't have as many computer manufacturers there. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:55:09 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 23:55:09 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204042506.GA3441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439276AD.2020805@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > There must be something else. I don't understand why China has to > import any OLD electronics, when they make all the NEW hardwares. > Unless there is some reciprocal treaty, ie. they get access to our > market, in return, they have to take some of our old junks. China does not have to import old electronics. In fact, they banned electronic waste imports in 2002. But electronic waste is still being imported illegally. China is not the only country affected but it is the main player. Canada still "refuses to" ratify the Basel Ban Amendment, according to http://www.ban.org/country_status/report_card.html According to the Montral Gazette, http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/specials/story.html?id=d5744066-6256-4ddc-9b0e-96fd6726b96a Alberta became the first Canadian province to launch a mandatory electronics recycling program in May, 2005. I am curious because recycling organizations are being funded but what do they do with the waste they cannot reuse? They claim that they divert tonnes from landfills. So, is the usual destination the landfill? Where and whose? The City of Toronto disposes of old computers but how? Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:57:30 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:57:30 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <43925FB7.1090805-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204030325.GA3272@node1.opengeometry.net> <43925FB7.1090805@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051204045730.GA3466@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 10:17:11PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > William Park wrote: > >But, thing is, even I wouldn't know what to look for inside of these > >thing. How can I tell them apart at the store? > > - is heavier the better? > > - shiny label with various certifications? > > > >Can you test them non-destructively? I'm thinking, we can turn this > >into TLUG project. We all bring our (spare) power supplies to get > >tested, and we'll publish our results on website. > > This may give you some ideas :-) > > http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1014 There is another article: http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1997 But, it's for UK market. I don't recognize most models. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:58:56 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 23:58:56 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <439276AD.2020805-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> <439276AD.2020805@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43927790.1090701@pppoe.ca> Meng Cheah wrote: > According to the Montral Gazette, > http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/specials/story.html?id=d5744066-6256-4ddc-9b0e-96fd6726b96a > > Alberta became the first Canadian province to launch a mandatory > electronics recycling program in May, 2005. Correction: According to the Montreal Gazette, http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/specials/story.html?id=d5744066-6256-4ddc-9b0e-96fd6726b96a > > Alberta became the first Canadian province to launch a mandatory > electronics recycling program in March, 2005. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:05:24 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:05:24 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43923E83.1060006-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43927914.5080602@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > I'm curious. How does this work? > What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new capacitor here or a new power supply there. When deemed unreusable, some components (such as the metal from most cases) can go right to recyclers. Other stuff such as power supplies and monitors and disk drives still contain some recyclable materials, and I believe there are companies that can extract it. Stuff that can't be reused or recycled still needs to be processed to make sure that no harmful elements (such as mercury) exists before seeing landfill. > Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? > Or ship them to China for recycling? It's my understanding that the only recycling that gets sent in volume to China from other countries is for the extraction of precious metals from printed circuit boards. I was told while there that one southern province "specializes" in this, and the business owners make decent money from the resale of extracted gold, etc. However, they do pay a price; the area's water has to be trucked in because all the local wells have been poisoned by the chemicals used in the extraction. There's a reason why other countries won't do this... NB: It's hardly racist to suggest that at least part of China's economic boom is dependent on having fewer environmental controls than exist in the US, Canada, Europe, Japan, or even other developing countries such as Brazil or Mexico). On any given day in downtown Beijing the sky is always a dirty yellow, you can look right at the sun and it just looks like a large dull lightbulb. Westerners are instructed _never_ to drink untreated tap water (and I don't recall locals using it either). This is in large part the result of unchecked pollution. As for Toronto's unwanted computers, I hear that some of them are ending up in Michigan. :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:36:33 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:36:33 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43927914.5080602-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> Message-ID: <43928061.3030201@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek > project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming > hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse > things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new > capacitor here or a new power supply there. > When deemed unreusable, some components (such as the metal from most > cases) can go right to recyclers. Other stuff such as power supplies and > monitors and disk drives still contain some recyclable materials, and I > believe there are companies that can extract it. Stuff that can't be > reused or recycled still needs to be processed to make sure that no > harmful elements (such as mercury) exists before seeing landfill. That is elaborate. The Brampton project William is referring to is below. It consists of only 3 people. http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1133566816830 As for Toronto's unwanted computers, I hear that some of them are ending > up in Michigan. :-) I sent a query to accesstoronto-b4MmrVKqEFv2chsKg/YiWw at public.gmane.org From the City of Toronto's (http://www.toronto.ca/accesstoronto/index.htm), "Send us your questions, concerns, feedback, etc. - our mandate is a timely and informative reply by the end of the next business day (often much sooner!)." We shall see :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:36:57 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:36:57 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43927790.1090701-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> <439276AD.2020805@pppoe.ca> <43927790.1090701@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43928079.509@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > According to the Montreal Gazette, > http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/specials/story.html?id=d5744066-6256-4ddc-9b0e-96fd6726b96a > > > > > Alberta became the first Canadian province to launch a mandatory > > electronics recycling program in March, 2005. Having a mandatory recycling program does not guarantee that the province knows what to do with all the "recycled" materials. In many cases computer recycling means "let's see how much we can repair/rebuild and get into the hands of the poor, and ensure that there are no toxic materials in whatever's left over before it hits landfill". The article you pointed to above indicates just such a program. While it certainly has merit -- even just separating out the batteries is a good idea -- it doesn't really keep most electronics from being buried along with everything else. Certainly this program doesn't go as far as extracting gold from circuit boards, the environmentally-hostile process being done mainly in China which was discussed earlier. - Evan PS: A really nice decomposition of the general issue of recycling can be found in Episode 18 of the excellent Penn and Teller TV series "Bullshit". Too bad that series -- shown on Showtime in the US -- hasn't been picked up by any Canadian station. Even if you don't agree with their Libertarian-biased scepticism, it's an interesting watch. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:49:00 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:49:00 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051204054900.GA3587@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 11:37:58PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > It's JUST BUSINESS. No, because it doesn't make business sense. The cost of collecting, shipping, delivery, extraction, etc, when taken as whole end-to-end process can't make business case, especially when it's cheaper to buy gold in the open market. I suspect, that the local business activity, which you refer to, are insulated from overall cost. The only metal that makes sense are - copper, eg. power cord, CRT coil - steel, eg. computer case -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From m_wagner-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 06:17:37 2005 From: m_wagner-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Miro Wagner) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 01:17:37 -0500 Subject: Icon to launch app as root? In-Reply-To: <4391D5D0.6050700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1133677057.21595.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> gksudo, if I understand your question. On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 12:28 -0500, Steve wrote: > Is there a way to modify an application icon so that it will launch as > root, and therefore prompt for password? > > I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (Gnome), and want to modify an app's icon so that > it will be "sudo ". I tried changing the Commandline in the > icon's properties to this, but that doesn't work. > > I suspect either it is very easy, or impossible... :-) > > Thanks for any help. > > -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 09:53:42 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 04:53:42 -0500 Subject: Teddys RSS Message-ID: http://vger1.dyndns.org/blogger/index.php?/feeds/index.rss I write almost all of my important daily Linux notes to my Serendipity blog. Here is the RSS feed. If you can provide any feedback or insight to problems or solutions, please do so. /teddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 11:48:29 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 06:48:29 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <43925AE9.30009-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43925AE9.30009@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4392D78D.40909@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of >> protection circuit on the output. > > How do you identify a protection circuit on the output(other than > reading the specs)? What do you mean by "protection". All power supplies have some sort of over voltage protection and currently limiting. Do you also want surge protection? Noise filtering? As always, you only get what you pay for. > > Other than a good power supply and a surge protector, what would you > recommend for a computer on 24/7? Is there some protection available > like if a fan or CPU started to fry? Forget those cheap "surge protector" power bars. They don't offer much protection. If you want "safe" power, get a properly installed and grounded surge protector, near your entrance panel or run through a good full time UPS. You can also get constant voltage transformers and many other items. Also, modern CPUs should throttle back or even halt, if they get to hot. Cleaning the dust out of a computer does wonders for cooling. You might also consider heat pipes, instead of fans on the CPU, as they're far more reliable and efficient. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 11:53:46 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 06:53:46 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204042506.GA3441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4392D8CA.4050908@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > There must be something else. I don't understand why China has to > import any OLD electronics, when they make all the NEW hardwares. > Unless there is some reciprocal treaty, ie. they get access to our > market, in return, they have to take some of our old junks. > Since they take so much of it, they must have a reason. Perhaps it's all the raw materials that can be extracted and resused, such as gold, lead, plastics etc.? Modern electronic equipment is full of valuable materials, that are too expensive to extract here. I doubt they'd be after old hard drives etc., to put into new computers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 12:06:26 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:06:26 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43927914.5080602-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> Message-ID: <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > >> I'm curious. How does this work? >> What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? > > I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek > project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming > hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse > things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new > capacitor here or a new power supply there. The problem with this, is that the labour to do this often costs more than the finished product is worth. Back in the days when computer circuit boards cost thousands of dollars, it was worthwhile to pay a technician, such as myself, to take the time to repair the board. With PCs the replacement cost is so low, that there's no point in even trying to repair a defective board. > > When deemed unreusable, some components (such as the metal from most > cases) can go right to recyclers. Other stuff such as power supplies and > monitors and disk drives still contain some recyclable materials, and I > believe there are companies that can extract it. Stuff that can't be > reused or recycled still needs to be processed to make sure that no > harmful elements (such as mercury) exists before seeing landfill. > >> Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? >> Or ship them to China for recycling? > > It's my understanding that the only recycling that gets sent in volume > to China from other countries is for the extraction of precious metals > from printed circuit boards. I was told while there that one southern > province "specializes" in this, and the business owners make decent > money from the resale of extracted gold, etc. However, they do pay a > price; the area's water has to be trucked in because all the local wells > have been poisoned by the chemicals used in the extraction. There's a > reason why other countries won't do this... Take as an example, old telephone cables. These cables are full of small gauge wires, insulated with plastic. In the past, the practice was to burn off the insulation, to recover the valuable copper. However, polution laws now make it difficult to do that here. So, just ship it to China etc. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 12:13:02 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:13:02 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051204054900.GA3587-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <20051204021454.GA3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512032300.08180.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <20051204042506.GA3441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204054900.GA3587@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4392DD4E.2010201@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 11:37:58PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: >> It's JUST BUSINESS. > > No, because it doesn't make business sense. The cost of collecting, > shipping, delivery, extraction, etc, when taken as whole end-to-end > process can't make business case, especially when it's cheaper to buy > gold in the open market. How can you be certain of that? Producing gold from ore is an expensive process too, with similar pollution issues. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 14:36:12 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 09:36:12 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4392DBC2.6060606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4392FEDC.10002@telly.org> James Knott wrote: >>I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek >>project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming >>hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse >>things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new >>capacitor here or a new power supply there. >> >> > >The problem with this, is that the labour to do this often costs more >than the finished product is worth. > Not if you're using volunteer help. As I mentioned in an earlier mail, at FreeGeek people "earn" their computers with 24 hours of their time. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 15:14:02 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:14:02 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4392DBC2.6060606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> Message-ID: James Knott wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >>Meng Cheah wrote: >> >> >>>I'm curious. How does this work? >>>What do they do with the stuff they cannot re-use? >> >>I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek >>project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming >>hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse >>things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new >>capacitor here or a new power supply there. > > > The problem with this, is that the labour to do this often costs more > than the finished product is worth. Back in the days when computer > circuit boards cost thousands of dollars, it was worthwhile to pay a > technician, such as myself, to take the time to repair the board. With > PCs the replacement cost is so low, that there's no point in even trying > to repair a defective board. I worked in a recycling sorting plant (if you can call it that) in Barrie for a few days a couple of years ago. Its that big red monstrosity on the 400 as you go north. There were three types of waste that came in: wires, components (pcb components), and full towers. The place employed quite a few ex-convicts and worked through a temp-agency, so whatever labour costs were, they were next to nothing compared to the value of what they were sorting/extracting. One night it was thousands of servers from Nortel, the next was Bell. I think most local recyling if it is not household waste is really just sorting so as to maximize the potential amount of waste per shipment. Not a high tech operation by any means -- I quit after 3 nights since people were mad at me for working too quickly. >>When deemed unreusable, some components (such as the metal from most >>cases) can go right to recyclers. Other stuff such as power supplies and >>monitors and disk drives still contain some recyclable materials, and I >>believe there are companies that can extract it. Stuff that can't be >>reused or recycled still needs to be processed to make sure that no >>harmful elements (such as mercury) exists before seeing landfill. >> >> >>>Does Toronto dispose of the computers in landfills, here or south? >>>Or ship them to China for recycling? >> >>It's my understanding that the only recycling that gets sent in volume >>to China from other countries is for the extraction of precious metals >>from printed circuit boards. I was told while there that one southern >>province "specializes" in this, and the business owners make decent >>money from the resale of extracted gold, etc. However, they do pay a >>price; the area's water has to be trucked in because all the local wells >>have been poisoned by the chemicals used in the extraction. There's a >>reason why other countries won't do this... I can tell you from my two nights that everything with metal on it or just plain metallic, screws, boards, cases, hard drives, wires, pipes, etc. gets sorted and shipped to the appropriate recycler. The only thing that went in the garbage was plastic or organic waste. The rest was sorted into dumpster sized bins depending on metal and size. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 15:15:23 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:15:23 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4392FEDC.10002-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> <4392FEDC.10002@telly.org> Message-ID: <4393080B.50105@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >>> I don't know about the Toronto project, but the Portland FreeGeek >>> project has a very elaborate way to sort, test and classify incoming >>> hardware as re-usable or not. The first priority is to try to reuse >>> things, especially those which can be brought back to life with a new >>> capacitor here or a new power supply there. >>> >> >> The problem with this, is that the labour to do this often costs more >> than the finished product is worth. >> > Not if you're using volunteer help. > > As I mentioned in an earlier mail, at FreeGeek people "earn" their > computers with 24 hours of their time. And after they have their computer? Do they continue on with other computers? Also, how many volunteers are technically competent to make such repairs. I have many years experience in electronic repairs, on minicomputers and other complex systems. Even so, I'm not sure I'd want to work on PC hardware, given the lack of documentaton, parts, etc. While many problems may have an easy fix, many others don't. Then what happens to the stuff that can't be fixed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 15:16:23 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:16:23 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4392FEDC.10002-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> <4392FEDC.10002@telly.org> Message-ID: <43930847.6090808@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> The problem with this, is that the labour to do this often costs more >> than the finished product is worth. >> > Not if you're using volunteer help. > > As I mentioned in an earlier mail, at FreeGeek people "earn" their > computers with 24 hours of their time. I took a look at www.freegeek.org. You said that they reuse/recycle everything, when you visited. That is an impressive operation. Was the troubleshooting, repairing, soldering, etc done by volunteer tech/geeks too? I imagine paying marketprice for their skills would be prohibitive. I can see recycling computers at the "just replace the card/board" level working with volunteers and minimal staff costs. Has anyone any experience with Reboot here in Toronto? I wonder how is their program like. I am not able to connect to www.reboot.on.ca since last night. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 15:41:25 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:41:25 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4392FEDC.10002-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> <4392FEDC.10002@telly.org> Message-ID: <43930E25.7080409@sympatico.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > As I mentioned in an earlier mail, at FreeGeek people "earn" their > computers with 24 hours of their time. Wasn't this what reBoot Canada was trying to do with their retail store, ByteMe Computers ? I can't actually get either of those websites to resolve right now, and please ignore me if they've been mentioned before. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 16:44:43 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:44:43 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4393080B.50105-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43923E83.1060006@pppoe.ca> <43927914.5080602@telly.org> <4392DBC2.6060606@rogers.com> <4392FEDC.10002@telly.org> <4393080B.50105@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43931CFB.1040206@telly.org> James Knott wrote: >And after they have their computer? Do they continue on with other computers? > Some do, some don't. Even modest rates of volunteer retention leads to good growth in available resources. Obviously they need some long-term volunteers to supervise and train the short-term help and provide continuity. The infrastructure is actually quite formally defined, and there's a lot of documentation to allow people to step into the various roles. >Also, how many volunteers are technically competent to make such repairs. > The bulk of the manual work I saw there was sorting and testing. Assembly of systems is, IIRC, the realm of the long-term help. >I have many years experience in electronic repairs, on minicomputers and other complex systems. Even so, I'm not sure I'd want to work on PC hardware, given the lack of documentaton, parts, etc. While many problems may have an easy fix, many others don't. Then what happens to the stuff that can't be fixed. > > What they can't reuse, they recycle. The main recycling tasks at FreeGeek are separating, sorting and obvious easy stuff such as removing batteries. The rest is sent to appropriate waste management firms. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 16:50:57 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:50:57 -0500 Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <4391F25B.7090106-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43931E71.5000804@telly.org> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I have a client of mine with a PowerComputing PowerTower Pro 225 (a > mac clone) with a dead SCSI cd burner. > > Option one, find a SCSI CD drive and replace. I have an NEC SCSI CD drive that I'm prepared to part with. It's slow, read-only, and so old that it comes with magazines into which the CDs are placed before going in the drive. But it works. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 19:38:01 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:38:01 -0500 Subject: Icon to launch app as root? In-Reply-To: <1133677057.21595.0.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <4391D5D0.6050700@gmail.com> <1133677057.21595.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43934599.6020900@gmail.com> Miro Wagner wrote: > gksudo, if I understand your question. Yes that is it... after perusing the man file, this is worked for me: gksudo --preserve-env Thanks. -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 23:01:25 2005 From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:01:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <43931E71.5000804-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> <43931E71.5000804@telly.org> Message-ID: <87zmngo4ak.fsf@gmail.com> Evan> I have an NEC SCSI CD drive that I'm prepared to part with. It's Evan> slow, read-only, and so old that it comes with magazines into Evan> which the CDs are placed before going in the drive. But it works. I used to have one like that. I bought it on ebay (I think) and it worked, but it turned out to have a non-standard audio interface that didn't fit any connector I ever saw. It was probably made before there was a standard. So this might be something to check. -- A true pessimist won't be discouraged by a little success. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 00:05:30 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:05:30 -0500 Subject: Upgrading Kernel w/ YUM Message-ID: <4393844A.9010608@sympatico.ca> I have very recently installed Fedora Core 4 and have just finished updating all of the packages with yum (love it). The only packages I didn't update were kernel 2.6.14-1.1644_FC4 and kernel-devel 2.6.14-1.1644_FC4. Is it safe to upgrade the kernel with yum? The present kernel is 2.6.11-1.1369_FC4. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 00:08:24 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:08:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Upgrading Kernel w/ YUM In-Reply-To: <4393844A.9010608-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4393844A.9010608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, John Moniz wrote: > I have very recently installed Fedora Core 4 and have just finished > updating all of the packages with yum (love it). The only packages I > didn't update were kernel 2.6.14-1.1644_FC4 and kernel-devel > 2.6.14-1.1644_FC4. Is it safe to upgrade the kernel with yum? The > present kernel is 2.6.11-1.1369_FC4. Yes, safer than ever. behdad > Thanks, > John. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 02:29:13 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 21:29:13 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 12/3/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > For the second time in as many years, a power supply in one of my > computers has died. > > The previous power supply death took out every item in the box with it. > > This time, there was some sort of over-protection device that prevented > the power supply from damaging anything. Apparently some power supplies > have a zener diode across the output that clamps the output voltage to > about 5.1 volts. When the output voltage attempts to rise, the zener > conducts and gets hot. This is sensed by some sort of temperature sensor, > which then shuts down the supply. > > Both these power supply failures were white box units from OTA on College > Street. The first one they eventually gave me something of a deal to > replace the contents of the box, but only after some serious arguing. (The > OTA manager argued that the failure occurred because I didn't have a surge > protector on that circuit, which is nonsense. I've designed switching > power supplies, so I'm aware of the importance of output protection, and > that supply obviously didn't have it.) I bought my first PC, a 486/66, from OTA. Since then I've bought used computers from Canada Direct, also on College (stereos and computers upstairs, computer books downstairs -- do I have the name right?) who were great, and an iMac from CPUsed on Dupont, who were also great. I bought a new PC (in kit form) from Sonnam that my wife and I put together for her -- and that power supply blew. I took the unit in (they were a bit shocked that I'd managed to remove the unit from the PC), but with the right paper work gave me a new unit without any haggling, which since then (perhaps two years now) has worked fine. I haven't bought anything in OTA in years -- not since I bought an additional 4M memory for my 486/66 so it could run OS/2 decently. Alex The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it has some sort of > protection circuit on the output. > > Peter > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Professor Emeritus, > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > Ryerson University > 416-465-3007 > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 23:45:26 2005 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:45:26 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051201042153.GA3524-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:21:53 -0500 William Park wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 09:13:41PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > > Soon, I will find myself in a situation without computer available for > > use from home. > > > > Would anybody around be able to help, at least by advise? I at the > > moment can not afford to pay much, I prefer not to pay at all. Though I > > could possibly offer in return some Linux support... or web development > > support, servers administration, etc... > > > > The pain is stronger than usual since I had a chance to use a powerfull > > machine for almost two last years... But it was not mine and must return > > it... > > I got > - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, > video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case (power supply on top of > motherboard). > I'll trade for DVD-ROM. William, I was about to buy a new computer and pass my Pentium II/350 to my mom. I drive past a computer store every morning (Steeles, just east of Highway_400) that sells second hand Pentium_IIs for $79. What's the point? I got her a Pentium_III/733 with 256MB RAM and a 40GB hard drive for about $130. Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you? -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 03:38:06 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:38:06 -0500 Subject: FW:MythTV Presentation In-Reply-To: <00ab01c5f76d$85e59a00$c601a8c0@plex31> References: <00ab01c5f76d$85e59a00$c601a8c0@plex31> Message-ID: On 12/2/05, Jon Thiele wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can grab a copy of this presentation??? The > website mentioned is semi-down and Paul isn't answering my emails? I > googled the document name without success. > It's back up on my site, right on the main page: http://www.mora.ca. I do answer my emails... eventually. ;-) pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 03:57:51 2005 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:57:51 -0500 Subject: FW:MythTV Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01c5f76d$85e59a00$c601a8c0@plex31> Message-ID: <4386c5b20512041957i625b4cb6wc7805ab8f350a69f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Paul, I didn't have the chance to attend your presenation so I was looking forward to seeing these slides; thanks very much! I do have a quick question: you mention the RAGE II + DVD is compatible. I happen to have this card as my TV Out option, and I can't get it to work at all. Do you have a reference for this card's capabilities? I'm about ready to give up on it and try something else. Thanks! Aaron. On 12/4/05, Paul Mora wrote: > On 12/2/05, Jon Thiele wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can grab a copy of this presentation??? The > website mentioned is semi-down and Paul isn't answering my emails? I > googled the document name without success. > > It's back up on my site, right on the main page: http://www.mora.ca. > I do answer my emails... eventually. ;-) > > pm > > > -- > Paul Mora > email: paulmora at gmail.com > From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 04:02:42 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:02:42 -0500 Subject: FW:MythTV Presentation In-Reply-To: <4386c5b20512041957i625b4cb6wc7805ab8f350a69f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <00ab01c5f76d$85e59a00$c601a8c0@plex31> <4386c5b20512041957i625b4cb6wc7805ab8f350a69f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/05, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > I do have a quick question: you mention the RAGE II + DVD is > compatible. I happen to have this card as my TV Out option, and I > can't get it to work at all. Do you have a reference for this card's > capabilities? I'm about ready to give up on it and try something else. Hi Aaron. I don't have any personal experience with the RAGE II + DVD; I just took that out of the MythTV FAQ; it's listed in there as being "sort-of" supported (ie. some people have gotten it to work). When building my PVR, I decided to go the route of the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 350, because it's the best supported in Linux, much better supported than trying to get TV out working using ATI or NVIDIA drivers. ATI has always had the crappiest Linux support. That is changing with their newer cards, but the old RAGE ones... well... good luck trying to get them to work. pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 04:27:21 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:27:21 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 06:45:26PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > > I got > > - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, > > video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case (power supply on top of > > motherboard). > > I'll trade for DVD-ROM. > > William, > > I was about to buy a new computer and pass my Pentium II/350 to my > mom. I drive past a computer store every morning (Steeles, just > east of Highway_400) that sells second hand Pentium_IIs for $79. > What's the point? > > I got her a Pentium_III/733 with 256MB RAM and a 40GB hard drive > for about $130. Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 > installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts > to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you? It's your money. S754 motherboard and Sempron 2500+ is about $130. Plus, DDR400 256MB is $30. So, what's your point? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 04:40:50 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:40:50 -0500 Subject: < 12" monitor Message-ID: <20051205044050.GA3732@node1.opengeometry.net> Anybody have 12" (or less) color monitor that they willing to sell? As long as I can display X during demo, it's fine. So, fuzzy fonts and faded colors are all okey. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 06:48:32 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:48:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051205042721.GA3705-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051205064832.22123.qmail@web33503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi William: I fix and protect computers properly! I charge only $65 for labour. Just visit serials.ws and see something bad happen to your windows. Win 98 SE is old software. I doubt the fault was a pirated version. Chris --- William Park wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 06:45:26PM -0500, Howard > Gibson wrote: > > > I got > > > - Soyo 6BE, P2/350, PC100 rams, Maxtor > harddisk, cd-rom, floppy, > > > video, lan, sound, generic mini ATX case > (power supply on top of > > > motherboard). > > > I'll trade for DVD-ROM. > > > > William, > > > > I was about to buy a new computer and pass my > Pentium II/350 to my > > mom. I drive past a computer store every > morning (Steeles, just > > east of Highway_400) that sells second hand > Pentium_IIs for $79. > > What's the point? > > > > I got her a Pentium_III/733 with 256MB RAM and > a 40GB hard drive > > for about $130. Something very bad happened to > the Windows_98 > > installed on it. I think we should all support > Microsoft's efforts > > to eliminate pirate copies of their operating > system, don't you? > > It's your money. S754 motherboard and Sempron 2500+ > is about $130. > Plus, DDR400 256MB is $30. So, what's your point? > > -- > William Park , Toronto, > Canada > ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) > drive > http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html > BashDiff: Super Bash shell > http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://drpcdr.ca Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 07:04:51 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 02:04:51 -0500 Subject: < 12" monitor (ignore) In-Reply-To: <20051205044050.GA3732-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205044050.GA3732@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051205070451.GA4511@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 11:40:50PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Anybody have 12" (or less) color monitor that they willing to sell? As > long as I can display X during demo, it's fine. So, fuzzy fonts and > faded colors are all okey. Doh! I totally forget I have an IBM 12" mono in the garage. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 07:21:59 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051205072159.23482.qmail@web33504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi: Ota was right. Your PC should be plugged into a power bar with surge suppression circuits. Plugging a PC directly to the AC outlet is asking for trouble. Chris --- Alex Beamish wrote: > On 12/3/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org > wrote: > > > > > > For the second time in as many years, a power > supply in one of my > > computers has died. > > > > The previous power supply death took out every > item in the box with it. > > > > This time, there was some sort of over-protection > device that prevented > > the power supply from damaging anything. > Apparently some power supplies > > have a zener diode across the output that clamps > the output voltage to > > about 5.1 volts. When the output voltage attempts > to rise, the zener > > conducts and gets hot. This is sensed by some sort > of temperature sensor, > > which then shuts down the supply. > > > > Both these power supply failures were white box > units from OTA on College > > Street. The first one they eventually gave me > something of a deal to > > replace the contents of the box, but only after > some serious arguing. (The > > OTA manager argued that the failure occurred > because I didn't have a surge > > protector on that circuit, which is nonsense. I've > designed switching > > power supplies, so I'm aware of the importance of > output protection, and > > that supply obviously didn't have it.) > > > I bought my first PC, a 486/66, from OTA. > > Since then I've bought used computers from Canada > Direct, also on College > (stereos and computers upstairs, computer books > downstairs -- do I have the > name right?) who were great, and an iMac from CPUsed > on Dupont, who were > also great. > > I bought a new PC (in kit form) from Sonnam that my > wife and I put together > for her -- and that power supply blew. I took the > unit in (they were a bit > shocked that I'd managed to remove the unit from the > PC), but with the right > paper work gave me a new unit without any haggling, > which since then > (perhaps two years now) has worked fine. > > I haven't bought anything in OTA in years -- not > since I bought an > additional 4M memory for my 486/66 so it could run > OS/2 decently. > > Alex > > The moral: buy a good power supply, and make sure it > has some sort of > > protection circuit on the output. > > > > Peter > > -- > > Peter Hiscocks > > Professor Emeritus, > > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > > Ryerson University > > 416-465-3007 > > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > -- > ---------- > Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. > http://drpcdr.ca Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 09:12:42 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 04:12:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051205072159.23482.qmail-3kt73Wy6rFWvuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205072159.23482.qmail@web33504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Charles | > On 12/3/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org | > wrote: [I moved this. Please don't "top-post" -- it wastes everyone elses time.] | Ota was right. Your PC should be plugged into a power | bar with surge suppression circuits. Plugging a PC | directly to the AC outlet is asking for trouble. Peter is a professor of electrical engineering -- he might know what he's talking about. (And I am not. So take the rest with a grain of salt.) Most cheap power bars with surge suppressors (at least as of a few years ago) were essentially useless. Why? The surge suppression circuit uses a metal oxide varistor (MOV). The MOV commits suicide when preventing the first surge getting through. After that, there and no protection and no indication of this. Hmm. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1155237,00.asp says: Better surge suppressors provide an indicator that warns when the MOV has failed. I don't know if any of the common garden varieties of powerbars have this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 09:22:33 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 04:22:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: IPSec over TCP In-Reply-To: <20051202175720.GH3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <438E348C.9050705@rogers.com> <20051202175720.GH3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I believe IPsec as per the standard runs on port udp/500 and uses | protocol esp and/or ah for key exchange. Close, but backwards. IKE, the key exchange protocol uses UDP/500. I think TCP/500 is reserved but the protocol does not use it. AH and ESP are the protocols for the data streams. There are perversions to do "NAT traversal". These are not part of the IPsec standard. I don't know the details, but they tend to use UDP to piggyback ESP and AH packets. I think that UDP/4500 is sometimes used to evade the damage that "IPsec passthrough" inflicts on UDP/500. TCP is not a great way to handle IPsec. Reliable delivery comes at a price and is not needed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 12:24:57 2005 From: jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Jon Thiele) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:24:57 -0500 Subject: FW:MythTV Presentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003a01c5f996$e8386db0$c601a8c0@plex31> Yep - got it, thanx. _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Paul Mora Sent: 4-Dec-05 10:38 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: FW: [TLUG]: MythTV Presentation On 12/2/05, Jon Thiele wrote: Does anyone know where I can grab a copy of this presentation??? The website mentioned is semi-down and Paul isn't answering my emails. I googled the document name without success. It's back up on my site, right on the main page: http://www.mora.ca. I do answer my emails... eventually. ;-) pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 14:08:28 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:08:28 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? Message-ID: I'm getting "500 Internal Server Error" messages from . Something fallen down, perchance? There's to be a meeting tomorrow, and this is the time when it is most vital to have the announcement up... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 14:20:55 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:20:55 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm getting "500 Internal Server Error" messages from . > > Something fallen down, perchance? > > There's to be a meeting tomorrow, and this is the time when it is most > vital to have the announcement up... Crap, I'm getting a blank page with the source I'll look into it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 14:52:50 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:52:50 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512050652n4da657f5k8a0398c31b2a52bf@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Sy Ali wrote: > On 12/5/05, Christopher Browne wrote: > > I'm getting "500 Internal Server Error" messages from . > > > > Something fallen down, perchance? > > > > There's to be a meeting tomorrow, and this is the time when it is most > > vital to have the announcement up... > > Crap, I'm getting a blank page with the source > > > > I'll look into it. This is a "classic" issue, one which is more nicely reported in a newer revision of mediawiki. I poked around and I have a lead but not enough time to troubleshoot (database connection issue). I've emailed Leah and I'll check back in to try some more. Blargh, wierd! =( -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 14:55:25 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:55:25 -0500 Subject: Geek gifts - Digital Camera In-Reply-To: <20051202161113.73374.qmail-7EKNVtTItHqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051202161113.73374.qmail@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512050655n18637b30k24a5e2b80174c30d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/2/05, Colin McGregor wrote: > Let me add to the stuff on offer (and help clear out > closet) here. I have a digital camera to offer, and > before I get snowed under with "I want it!" e-mails > let me explain why, even though last time I cheched > the camera worked, you might not want THIS camera: Haha.. that's awesome. Just yesterday at the TRUG meet, I was shown a new digicam made by Hasbro. Rox! =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 17:17:41 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:17:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Geek gifts - Digital Camera In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512050655n18637b30k24a5e2b80174c30d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512050655n18637b30k24a5e2b80174c30d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051205171742.19036.qmail@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sy Ali wrote: > On 12/2/05, Colin McGregor > wrote: > > Let me add to the stuff on offer (and help clear > out > > closet) here. I have a digital camera to offer, > and > > before I get snowed under with "I want it!" > e-mails > > let me explain why, even though last time I > cheched > > the camera worked, you might not want THIS camera: > > Haha.. that's awesome. Just yesterday at the TRUG > meet, I was shown a > new digicam made by Hasbro. Rox! =) Yes, well, there must be some sort of a market for this stuff (parents who want to keep the kids away for the neat/expensive toys :-) ). In my case that inexpensive little camera did some good work doing little thumbnail pictures for my website, but it is time to move on... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 18:01:10 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:01:10 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051203235643.GB2383-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43948066.5030608@telly.org> William Park wrote: >For those of you who have more vested interested in this kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something under GTALUG >Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) > > Recycling discussions aside, here's a novel suggestion. Rather than GTALUG coming up with ideas that it would like other people to do, why doesn't it offer to the community some initiatives that _it_ wants to do? Instead of enviously eyeing the existing programs of others, why not come up with some fresh ones? The skills to apply for grant programs like Trillium exist on this list, but first you need an original project to fund. Last time I looked, "punting leadership of the community to vested interests" didn't appear anywhere within the GTALUG manifesto. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 19:30:43 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:30:43 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051205042721.GA3705-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 06:45:26PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: >>William, >> >> I was about to buy a new computer and pass my Pentium II/350 to my >> mom. I drive past a computer store every morning (Steeles, just >> east of Highway_400) that sells second hand Pentium_IIs for $79. >> What's the point? >> >> I got her a Pentium_III/733 with 256MB RAM and a 40GB hard drive >> for about $130. Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you? > > > It's your money. S754 motherboard and Sempron 2500+ is about $130. > Plus, DDR400 256MB is $30. So, what's your point? Howard What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 19:37:12 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:37:12 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051205064832.22123.qmail-3HfU9ydMU6yvuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205064832.22123.qmail@web33503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <439496E8.2050709@pppoe.ca> Christopher Charles wrote: > Hi William: > > I fix and protect computers properly! I charge only > $65 for labour. > > Just visit serials.ws and see something bad happen to > your windows. > > Win 98 SE is old software. I doubt the fault was a > pirated version. By visiting serials.ws, you may get the "java byte verify virus". Is this what Howard means? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 19:54:26 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:54:26 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <43948066.5030608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 01:01:10PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > William Park wrote: > > >For those of you who have more vested interested in this > >kind of things, perhaps, you may want to start something > >under GTALUG > >Inc. You have my support at the board. :-) > > > > > Recycling discussions aside, here's a novel suggestion. > > Rather than GTALUG coming up with ideas that it would > like other people to do, why doesn't it offer to the > community some initiatives that _it_ wants to do? I believe I did exactly that. If you want use GTALUG Inc as (Linux) NPO umbrella, then you have my support at the board. > Instead > of enviously eyeing the existing programs of others, why > not come up with some fresh ones? The skills to apply for > grant programs like Trillium exist on this list, but > first you need an original project to fund. > > Last time I looked, "punting leadership of the community > to vested interests" didn't appear anywhere within the > GTALUG manifesto. Evan, my post was just an idea for those looking for ways to get some Gov money. Whether the project is under GTALUG or CLUE, is least of my concern. The project needs to be run by someone who can naviagate the Gov grant system, as well as organize incoming/outgoing of computer parts. All I'm saying is, that's not me. But, I'll help from my side of thing, as best as I can. If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of Linux community, then I'll work with you. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 20:17:45 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:17:45 -0500 Subject: OT: Does Anyone Have a SCSI CD drive and Are There Mac Mailing Lists in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <20051203234413.GA2383-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4391F25B.7090106@utoronto.ca> <20051203234413.GA2383@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051205201745.GK3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 06:44:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Best option. Someone must have some of those used plextor scsi drives around ( They can't have any of mine though. I have too many scsi machines that need them). > Option 2.2: If his motherboard has SATA, then I've seen SATA cd-rw > (Plextor, I think). I think apple stopped using SCSI before SATA even existed. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 20:23:28 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:23:28 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 09:40:37PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Right now, I have a generic no-name power supply in there as a temporary > replacement. Hopefully it will last long enough until I have a chance to > get something reliable. > > I have heard that Antec power supplies are reasonably reliable. They start > at about $60 at Canada Computes. The product description includes output > protection against short circuits and overvoltage. > > No doubt other people on this list will have ideas on suitable supplies. > But it's a reasonable bet that a $20 generic power supply is lower quality > than a $60 name brand. I used to spend $200 to $300 on PC Power & Cooling TurboCool 300s, but now I use Enermax or Antec for a lot less money. I think the last TurboCool I bought was in 2000, which was around the time people started paying attension to power supply brands (finally :) so a number of good brands popped up and prices dropped on them quite a bit. Before then people that knew would pay for the PC Power & Cooling for power supplies and cpu fans (I have one running like new after 13 years) and to granite digital for real scsi cables. :) I have bad experiences with the reliability and stability of generic power supplies. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 20:29:22 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:29:22 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051204030325.GA3272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204030325.GA3272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051205202922.GM3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 10:03:25PM -0500, William Park wrote: > But, thing is, even I wouldn't know what to look for inside of these > thing. How can I tell them apart at the store? > - is heavier the better? Well heavy doesn't imply good, but it is a good indicator as a start. If a 500W power supply weights half a pound, there is something wrong with it, or someone has come up with something quite amazing. :) I have had a generic 300W power supply which when I looked inside it had a rather small transformer and a couple of 1" high by 1/2" diameter capacitors. It couldn't handle any brownouts or such, and eventually died at a rather young age. I then looked at another older 300W I had that had been running for a number of years and could handle power blips of a second or two and the capacitors were close to 10times the size and the transformer was about twice the size to, and the whole thing sure was a lot heavier. That power supply is still in use. I think the simplest is to go for the recomended brand names given they have a reputation to uphold and are not likely to risk it by making a piece of crap. > - shiny label with various certifications? I don't think they can sell them without those at all, so that doesn't mean much. The label saying how much power each rail can handle and how many of different rails it has and such on the other hand may be useful, although only if you know at what temperature they rated it. > Can you test them non-destructively? I'm thinking, we can turn this > into TLUG project. We all bring our (spare) power supplies to get > tested, and we'll publish our results on website. Probably simpler to just make a list of what has lasted well, what hasn't, and under what conditions. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 20:33:17 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:33:17 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <43925AE9.30009-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43925AE9.30009@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051205203316.GN3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 09:56:41PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > How do you identify a protection circuit on the output(other than > reading the specs)? > > Other than a good power supply and a surge protector, what would you > recommend for a computer on 24/7? Is there some protection available > like if a fan or CPU started to fry? Most modern machines will power off if the cpu temperature rises too high. I was helping a friend yesterday that thought their machine had friend the mainboard, but when I tried it, it would power up, initialize everything and then while showing the bios screen would power off again. Trying again it powered off even quicker. After letting it cool a few hours I tried again and managed to make it into the bios to the hardware monitor and managed to see the cpu temp rise by 1 or 2C per second until at 72C it powered off the system. After taking the system apart I found clip on the cpu fan was cracked and the thermal paste had turned into lightly browned cement, so I know have an idea what to do to fix it (it involves some new thermal paste). Personally I think the best protection is a decent UPS, and given you can get a nice 500 to 800VA APC for about $150 lately, there is no reason any computer should be without one. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 21:00:53 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:00:53 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051205203316.GN3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43925AE9.30009@pppoe.ca> <20051205203316.GN3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4394AA85.3070501@pppoe.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 09:56:41PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: >>Other than a good power supply and a surge protector, what would you >>recommend for a computer on 24/7? Is there some protection available >>like if a fan or CPU started to fry? > > > Most modern machines will power off if the cpu temperature rises too > high. I was helping a friend yesterday that thought their machine had > friend the mainboard, but when I tried it, it would power up, initialize > everything and then while showing the bios screen would power off again. > Trying again it powered off even quicker. After letting it cool a few > hours I tried again and managed to make it into the bios to the hardware > monitor and managed to see the cpu temp rise by 1 or 2C per second until > at 72C it powered off the system. After taking the system apart I found > clip on the cpu fan was cracked and the thermal paste had turned into > lightly browned cement, so I know have an idea what to do to fix it (it > involves some new thermal paste). > > Personally I think the best protection is a decent UPS, and given you > can get a nice 500 to 800VA APC for about $150 lately, there is no > reason any computer should be without one. > Thanks Lennart. When this thread started, I was reminded of an incident at work which I heard about. I won't swear to the accuracy of the details. One of the guys smelled a burning smell in the computer room and traced it to a server. The manager was ticked off because "It's an IBM server fan. It's not supposed to happen." I'm running a box 24/7 at home. I don't mind losing the box or the data but I want it to switch off or the supply off if anything happens. Short of a home computer room, I guess that's the best I can do. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 22:26:06 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:26:06 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051205202328.GL3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 12/5/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I used to spend $200 to $300 on PC Power & Cooling TurboCool 300s, but > now I use Enermax or Antec for a lot less money. I got an Enermax a year ago and it's worked flawlessly until about two weeks ago. It just coughed and suffered permadeath this weekend. I loved that the fan kept running for a couple of minutes after shutdown (why doesn't every component do that?), but for the price I really expected more than a year of service. Just my $0.02. -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 22:33:49 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:33:49 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051205223349.GO3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 05:26:06PM -0500, Mike Newman wrote: > On 12/5/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > I used to spend $200 to $300 on PC Power & Cooling TurboCool 300s, but > > now I use Enermax or Antec for a lot less money. > I got an Enermax a year ago and it's worked flawlessly until about two > weeks ago. It just coughed and suffered permadeath this weekend. > I loved that the fan kept running for a couple of minutes after > shutdown (why doesn't every component do that?), but for the price I > really expected more than a year of service. Just my $0.02. I have had a maxtor drive die 4 hours after taking it out of the box. I haven't held that against them. I would have been more upset if it died after 1 month since then I would have had data on it and had to restore that. Everything fails, hence the MTBF. That's the mean time, so some fail earlier, some might never fail. I have taken one of the turbocools out of service since the fan started to make a lot of noise. Even ball bearings can wear out, and unfortunately that particular model had the fan power connector soldered in place so it would take a bit of work to replace (I was lazy and just got an antec power supply for it instead). So yeah even the best stuff does fail sometimes. It's the stuff that fails routinely that you want to watch out for, or stuff that kills your other hardware. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 23:22:45 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:22:45 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051205195426.GB2567-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512051522l5b4b42fegd15f158342fe6849@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 01:01:10PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: [...] > > Rather than GTALUG coming up with ideas that it would > > like other people to do, why doesn't it offer to the > > community some initiatives that _it_ wants to do? > > I believe I did exactly that. If you want use GTALUG Inc as (Linux) NPO > umbrella, then you have my support at the board. [...] > The project needs to be run by someone who can naviagate the Gov grant > system, as well as organize incoming/outgoing of computer parts. All > I'm saying is, that's not me. But, I'll help from my side of thing, as > best as I can. > > If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of > Linux community, then I'll work with you. I think part of the problem is that, as a community, we are still facing a bit of an identity crisis - what part(s) do (or better, can) we play in the world-at-large? Earlier this year, I mentioned the idea of working groups at an executive meeting - I still think the idea has merit. There was some concern about fracturing (in the form of special interest groups), though I don't see that as being an issue that can't be overcome if these working groups are based on community iterests as opposed to special interests. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 23:49:21 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:49:21 -0500 Subject: Upgrading Kernel w/ YUM In-Reply-To: References: <4393844A.9010608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4394D201.1030805@sympatico.ca> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, John Moniz wrote: > > > >>I have very recently installed Fedora Core 4 and have just finished >>updating all of the packages with yum (love it). The only packages I >>didn't update were kernel 2.6.14-1.1644_FC4 and kernel-devel >>2.6.14-1.1644_FC4. Is it safe to upgrade the kernel with yum? The >>present kernel is 2.6.11-1.1369_FC4. >> >> > >Yes, safer than ever. > >behdad > It worked well, even updated Grub so I can boot to either kernel. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 00:23:31 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:23:31 -0500 Subject: < 12" monitor (ignore) In-Reply-To: <20051205070451.GA4511-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205044050.GA3732@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051205070451.GA4511@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4394DA03.1090503@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 11:40:50PM -0500, William Park wrote: >> Anybody have 12" (or less) color monitor that they willing to sell? As >> long as I can display X during demo, it's fine. So, fuzzy fonts and >> faded colors are all okey. > > Doh! I totally forget I have an IBM 12" mono in the garage. > Well, here's an opportunity to sell it. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 00:25:18 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:25:18 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051205072159.23482.qmail-3kt73Wy6rFWvuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205072159.23482.qmail@web33504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4394DA6E.4030608@rogers.com> Christopher Charles wrote: > Hi: > > Ota was right. Your PC should be plugged into a power > bar with surge suppression circuits. Plugging a PC > directly to the AC outlet is asking for trouble. A few years ago, I was setting up a PC for a retired couple. Right out of the box, it often wouldn't power up. The store claimed they shouldn't be using a power bar! As I suspected, it was the computer that was NFG, not the power bar. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 00:34:46 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:34:46 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <4394DA6E.4030608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205072159.23482.qmail@web33504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4394DA6E.4030608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4394DCA6.4090404@gmail.com> James Knott wrote: > Christopher Charles wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> Ota was right. Your PC should be plugged into a power >> bar with surge suppression circuits. Plugging a PC >> directly to the AC outlet is asking for trouble. >> > > A few years ago, I was setting up a PC for a retired couple. Right out > of the box, it often wouldn't power up. The store claimed they > shouldn't be using a power bar! > > As I suspected, it was the computer that was NFG, not the power bar. I once had a similar instance... bought a *cheap* case that came with a PS... put the motherboard in (a used one that I knew worked) and things didn't power on. Called the place and they exchanged the PS for a free upgrade. Sort of like they know that a certain percentage will come back immediately, so they give you no trouble in getting a higher-quality PS for free. Best thing, like Lennart and others mentioned, is to buy brands you trust, like Antec. -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 01:22:08 2005 From: anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (marius) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:22:08 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <43949563.8060802-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > Howard > > What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 > installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts > to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a Penguin. //mts -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 01:34:49 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:34:49 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> marius wrote: > On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: >> Howard >> >> What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" > > I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and > deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a > Penguin. I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 01:57:54 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:57:54 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394EAB9.3060403-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> James Knott wrote: > marius wrote: > >>On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: >> >>>Howard >>> >>>What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >>>installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >>>to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" >> >>I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and >>deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a >>Penguin. > > > I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) But shouldn't Howard's mother have the final say ?:-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:10:43 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:10:43 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394F022.4070207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4394F323.4050909@pppoe.ca> Meng Cheah wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> marius wrote: >> >>> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: >>> >>>> Howard >>>> >>>> What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >>>> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >>>> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" >>> >>> >>> I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and >>> deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a >>> Penguin. >> >> >> >> I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) > > > I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) OK, now I get it. Code for "pirated version". I was wondering what has William Park got to do with it. In my haste, William Park==> His Billyness? :-) Duh! I'd better get more sleep :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:15:53 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:15:53 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394F323.4050909-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> <4394F323.4050909@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512051815l5c99ee27m56953f51fd8c7c5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > > James Knott wrote: > > > >> marius wrote: > >> > >>> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>> > >>>> Howard > >>>> > >>>> What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 > >>>> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts > >>>> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and > >>> deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a > >>> Penguin. > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) > > > > > > I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) > > OK, now I get it. Code for "pirated version". > I was wondering what has William Park got to do with it. > > In my haste, William Park==> His Billyness? :-) > Duh! > > I'd better get more sleep :-) w00T! Will - u gots promotedd to Bill! Maybe we could call u Bill C-T1: Citizen's Bill - Toronto #1? (evil grin!) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:31:46 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:31:46 -0500 Subject: < 12" monitor (ignore) In-Reply-To: <4394DA03.1090503-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051205044050.GA3732@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051205070451.GA4511@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394DA03.1090503@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051206023146.GA2385@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 07:23:31PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 11:40:50PM -0500, William Park wrote: > >> Anybody have 12" (or less) color monitor that they willing to sell? As > >> long as I can display X during demo, it's fine. So, fuzzy fonts and > >> faded colors are all okey. > > > > Doh! I totally forget I have an IBM 12" mono in the garage. > > > > Well, here's an opportunity to sell it. ;-) If you show up for WestTLUG meeting (tomorrow), you can see it put to good use. :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:31:34 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:31:34 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051205195426.GB2567-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> William Park wrote: >>Rather than GTALUG coming up with ideas that it would >>like other people to do, why doesn't it offer to the >>community some initiatives that _it_ wants to do? >> >>I believe I did exactly that. If you want use GTALUG Inc as (Linux) NPO umbrella, then you have my support at the board. >> >> You totally missed the point of what I said. The current state of GTALUG seems reminiscent of a bunch of teenagers hanging around the Seven-11: "So, like, what do you want to do?" "I dunno, what do _you_ want to do?" (repeat as necessary) There is a big difference between management and leadership. Leadership means offering ideas and giving the community a focal point to which people can contribute. It means showing initiative in not waiting for someone else to move first. The problem I see with GTALUG is that it brings something to the community that already existed (ie, an NPO umbrella) but doesn't seem to offer anything else. Structure is easy; I can think of quite a few NPO umbrellas besides GTALUG that could have been used to front open source community programs; they'd probably even do the grant paperwork in return for a small piece of the project budget. What is lacking is leadership, ideas, and the will (or energy) to carry out those ideas. The community generally knows GTALUG's structure; what nobody seems to know is its vision, its soul. You don't express a vision by stating an intent to get behind whatever anyone brings to the table. >Evan, my post was just an idea for those looking for ways to get some Gov money. > It did nothing of the sort. It noted someone else that received Gov money and then invited community members (who were prepared to do all the work) to use the GTALUG corporate structure from which to apply for money for a similar project. It actually invites what would be a massive failure, in that the Gov is unlikely to fund multiple projects that are largely identical. A new computer recycling project is now very unlikely to get Trillium money for a while. >Whether the project is under GTALUG or CLUE, is least of my concern. > > Where did CLUE come into this? My point is that there are a bunch of bodies besides GTALUG *or* CLUE who could offer an umbrella structure. What extra does GTALUG have to offer beyond a corporate registration? You didn't even offer to assist with any such project beyond giving them your vote. >The project needs to be run by someone who can naviagate the Gov grant system, as well as organize incoming/outgoing of computer parts. All >I'm saying is, that's not me. But, I'll help from my side of thing, as best as I can. > > Be more specific. What would you -- what would GTALUG -- do to help? What can it offer to someone with the idea? Project management? Fundraising? Physical space? Publicity? Volunteer recruitment/incentives? In any case, why try to duplicate a project that you know is already started and funded? A new project that is essentially similar to something already funded is highly unlikely to get new funds of its own. If someone wants to help in computer recycling, perhaps the best advice is for that person to contact the group that received the grant. Maybe they need to hire people now that they have the funds. Make that project successful rather than running to create a new one, potentially leaving the community with two half-projects competing with each other for funds, volunteers and used computers. >If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of Linux community, then I'll work with you. > > CLUE and I already have our hands full with a major the not-yet-announced national open source project. In the meantime, There is plenty of work to be done in other areas -- but first GTALUG needs some vision and it needs to show some leadership if it's to play a valuable role in the community (let alone attract significant membership). Run a flag up the pole and see who salutes. All that is certain is that the status quo -- staring at an empty flagpole -- will get you nowhere. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:32:36 2005 From: anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (marius) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:32:36 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394F022.4070207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <22318ee50512051832h7b7a82a3xa3f85d90ba9cfa44@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and > >>deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a > >>Penguin. > > > > > I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) > > But shouldn't Howard's mother have the final say ?:-) I don't know what Howard's mom is using the PC for, but my experience has been that most "light" computer users don't care about the OS as long as they can "do their thing". I had my gf running OpenBSD for a while. She didn't care which OS was on the machine as long as she could get on the web, check her email and view whatever video/sound/picture files her friends sent. Later I moved her to FC3 because she needed to be able to open and edit MS Office documents. //mts -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:39:05 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:39:05 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets Message-ID: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> Anyone with experience using motherboards with ULI chipsets? I was looking at an Asus motherboard, Asus K8U-X Socket 754 ULI M1689 Chipset DDR400 Serial ATA Raid AGP 8X 10/100 Lan 5.1 Ch Audio. $68.99 at Canada Computers. Understand the company is a Taiwanese company started in 2002. http://www.uli.com.tw/eng/index_eng.php Motherboards that use the M1689 chipset include Asus, Gigabyte, ChainTech, DFI, Abit and Asrock. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:50:59 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:50:59 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512051815l5c99ee27m56953f51fd8c7c5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> <4394F323.4050909@pppoe.ca> <99a6c38f0512051815l5c99ee27m56953f51fd8c7c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051206025059.GA2427@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:15:53PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > > Meng Cheah wrote: > > OK, now I get it. Code for "pirated version". > > I was wondering what has William Park got to do with it. > > > > In my haste, William Park==> His Billyness? :-) > > Duh! > > > > I'd better get more sleep :-) > > w00T! Will - u gots promotedd to Bill! > > Maybe we could call u Bill C-T1: Citizen's Bill - Toronto #1? > > (evil grin!) You mean I have $40Billion in the bank? Geez, I better start hiring people... :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 02:59:09 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:59:09 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <20051206025059.GA2427-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> <4394F323.4050909@pppoe.ca> <99a6c38f0512051815l5c99ee27m56953f51fd8c7c5@mail.gmail.com> <20051206025059.GA2427@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4394FE7D.4040609@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > You mean I have $40Billion in the bank? Geez, I better start hiring > people... :-) I'd settle for beer after next week's meeting :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 03:01:30 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:01:30 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4394F806.4060803-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512051901r61ff3251w8190f32f5e860fc2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Run a flag up the pole and see who salutes. I think a number of folks would have no problem saluting the flag - if they understood what that flag meant. Just beating a dead horse here, but wth. > All that is certain is that the status quo -- staring at an empty flagpole -- will get you nowhere. My boss likes to put it as "if you do what you always did, you're gunna get what you always got." Lots of good things have happened on this list in recent weeks - my hope is that we'll soon see it's time to turn the nitro on. ;D -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 03:34:43 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:34:43 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512050652n4da657f5k8a0398c31b2a52bf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512050652n4da657f5k8a0398c31b2a52bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512051934k539971e6je5373ec3f6bcb999@mail.gmail.com> Just to confirm, the wiki is indeed down and the problem is being worked on. We may need a hand physically at the box, thus the delay while we get in touch with forces in the real world. =) It's a really inopportune time, I know.. but it'll be fixed asap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 04:17:15 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:17:15 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <4394F9C9.3020306-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051206041715.GA2682@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:39:05PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > Anyone with experience using motherboards with ULI chipsets? > > I was looking at an Asus motherboard, Asus K8U-X Socket 754 ULI M1689 > Chipset DDR400 Serial ATA Raid AGP 8X 10/100 Lan 5.1 Ch Audio. > $68.99 at Canada Computers. > > Understand the company is a Taiwanese company started in 2002. > http://www.uli.com.tw/eng/index_eng.php > Motherboards that use the M1689 chipset include Asus, Gigabyte, > ChainTech, DFI, Abit and Asrock. No experience. Just what I read. It's from ULi company, definitely child of ALi, but I've read that it's joint venture between AMD and ALi. They put "northbridge" and "southbridge" into single chip. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 04:21:36 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:21:36 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512051934k539971e6je5373ec3f6bcb999-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512050652n4da657f5k8a0398c31b2a52bf@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512051934k539971e6je5373ec3f6bcb999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512052021g47a8cda6x763ee1074bf7667d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Sy Ali wrote: > Just to confirm, the wiki is indeed down and the problem is being > worked on. We may need a hand physically at the box, thus the delay > while we get in touch with forces in the real world. =) > > It's a really inopportune time, I know.. but it'll be fixed asap. Maybe I'm outta touch - isn't the TLUG meeting the second Tuesday of the month? I certainly hope so, 'cause I can't make tomorrow! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 04:46:24 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:46:24 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4394F806.4060803-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:31:34PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >Evan, my post was just an idea for those looking for ways to get some > >Gov money. > > > It did nothing of the sort. It noted someone else that received Gov > money and then invited community members (who were prepared to do all > the work) to use the GTALUG corporate structure from which to apply for > money for a similar project. It actually invites what would be a massive > failure, in that the Gov is unlikely to fund multiple projects that are > largely identical. A new computer recycling project is now very unlikely > to get Trillium money for a while. Only you are saying about duplicating what they're doing. First, Trillium might fund identical project based on different geography. Second, it would be instructive to study what/how/who they did. Third, one might find a new angle during the process. Both of us are speculating. Meanwhile, thing will get done, if and only if someone carry the ball. > > >Whether the project is under GTALUG or CLUE, is least of my concern. > > > > > Where did CLUE come into this? You are CLUE, and you are complaining about GTALUG. Why? > >If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of > >Linux community, then I'll work with you. > > > CLUE and I already have our hands full with a major the > not-yet-announced national open source project. In the meantime, There > is plenty of work to be done in other areas -- but first GTALUG needs > some vision and it needs to show some leadership if it's to play a > valuable role in the community (let alone attract significant membership). Evan, it seems that you have enough vision and insight for rest of us. I'll defer those things to you. I wish you good sailing on your national open source project. Write us time to time. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 05:10:28 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:10:28 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <20051206041715.GA2682-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> <20051206041715.GA2682@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43951D44.6020505@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > No experience. Just what I read. It's from ULi company, definitely > child of ALi, but I've read that it's joint venture between AMD and ALi. > They put "northbridge" and "southbridge" into single chip. Thanks. I've an old empty case with power supply. Thinking and looking at either going the S754 + Sempron way or a laptop. Any cheap integrated board with video that you recommend/suggest? How was the $699 Acer TravelMate 2312LCi you checked out? I remember you weren't too impressed. Can it handle Linux? Did you try it out with Knoppix? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 05:12:56 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:12:56 -0500 Subject: Wiki down??? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512052021g47a8cda6x763ee1074bf7667d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512050620m5c048161h9f3b155557017253@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512050652n4da657f5k8a0398c31b2a52bf@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512051934k539971e6je5373ec3f6bcb999@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512052021g47a8cda6x763ee1074bf7667d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43951DD8.1070300@pppoe.ca> Scott Elcomb wrote: > Maybe I'm outta touch - isn't the TLUG meeting the second Tuesday of > the month? I certainly hope so, 'cause I can't make tomorrow! I think Sy is talking of the committee meeting. The usual meeting is still on the second Tuesday. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 05:20:30 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:20:30 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051206044624.GB2682-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:31:34PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > You are CLUE, and you are complaining about GTALUG. Why? > > > >If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of > > >Linux community, then I'll work with you. Good stuff :) > > CLUE and I already have our hands full with a major the > > not-yet-announced national open source project. In the meantime, There > > is plenty of work to be done in other areas -- but first GTALUG needs > > some vision and it needs to show some leadership if it's to play a > > valuable role in the community (let alone attract significant membership). > > Evan, it seems that you have enough vision and insight for rest of us. > I'll defer those things to you. I wish you good sailing on your > national open source project. Write us time to time. Pls don't forget that Evan was also instrumental in the development of NewTLUG. While there is some form of seperation between the "SIG"s of TLUG, we should try to remain as cohesive as possible... If it's possible to present a unified front... that's my ultimate dream. And I'm not even from the GTA. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 06:32:54 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:32:54 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <43951D44.6020505-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> <20051206041715.GA2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <43951D44.6020505@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051206063254.GA3281@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 12:10:28AM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > William Park wrote: > >No experience. Just what I read. It's from ULi company, definitely > >child of ALi, but I've read that it's joint venture between AMD and ALi. > >They put "northbridge" and "southbridge" into single chip. > > Thanks. I've an old empty case with power supply. > Thinking and looking at either going the S754 + Sempron way or a laptop. > Any cheap integrated board with video that you recommend/suggest? How about - Abit KV-81 -- it has Gblan. - Asus K8V-MX They go for about $75 (www.infonec.com). > > How was the $699 Acer TravelMate 2312LCi you checked out? > I remember you weren't too impressed. > Can it handle Linux? > Did you try it out with Knoppix? No, I decided against laptop (it's SiS based, so should be supported by Linux). Instead, I bought Antec Minuet case, and drilled and bolted a handle on the case. So, I can now carry it like briefcase. :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 06:54:10 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:54:10 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 12:20:30AM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > > CLUE and I already have our hands full with a major the > > > not-yet-announced national open source project. In the meantime, There > > > is plenty of work to be done in other areas -- but first GTALUG needs > > > some vision and it needs to show some leadership if it's to play a > > > valuable role in the community (let alone attract significant membership). > > > > Evan, it seems that you have enough vision and insight for rest of us. > > I'll defer those things to you. I wish you good sailing on your > > national open source project. Write us time to time. > > Pls don't forget that Evan was also instrumental in the development of > NewTLUG. While there is some form of seperation between the "SIG"s of > TLUG, we should try to remain as cohesive as possible... If it's > possible to present a unified front... that's my ultimate dream. And > I'm not even from the GTA. Agreed. But, it's not helpful to incessantly complain about lack of 5-year plan. If Evan has vision, then I encourage him to step forward and carry the ball. We are member-driven organization. That means, we gotta have bodies first, then try to coordinate. Plans will change as circumstances change. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 08:49:33 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:49:33 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051206065410.GA3425-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> William Park wrote: >If Evan has vision, then I encourage him to step forward and carry the ball. > Please don't stoop to ad hominems. >We are member-driven organization. That means, we gotta have bodies first, then try to coordinate. > That's not how it works. 1) First you express a vision and realistic goals based on that vision. 2) People choose to join based on affinity with the vision and goals. 3) Then, based on resources at hand (people, money, technology, etc), you develop plans to accomplish the goals. I'm not complaining about the lack of #3, I agree that's premature. I'm commenting on the bypassing of #1. Plans can change frequently, but goals change rarely and vision should be a constant. I am not speaking as someone who has created and supports other community projects, though my experiences with those efforts has assisted my perspective. I am not speaking on behalf of any organization or anyone else, though I know there are others out there who share my views. I am speaking as one of the people GTALUG is trying to convert from unpaid to paid membership. I am simply stating what it will take to get me (and others with whom I've spoken) to join. It was not I who changed the rules and said that TLUG was morphing into a pay-to-join organization. I am challenging GTALUG to sell the community on its rationale for doing this (beyond the somewhat lame purpose of controlling resources that worked well without control). I am certainly not the first person to have raised this. The message that started this thread was a reminder (to me) that the challenge has not yet been addressed so I raised it again. If the response is to attack me personally rather than address the challenge, that's unfortunate. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 10:48:37 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:48:37 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394F022.4070207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43956C85.5000905@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> marius wrote: >> >>> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: >>> >>>> Howard >>>> >>>> What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >>>> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >>>> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" >>> >>> I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and >>> deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a >>> Penguin. >> >> >> I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) > > I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) > > But shouldn't Howard's mother have the final say ?:-) Who??? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 10:49:27 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:49:27 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <4394F323.4050909-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> <4394F323.4050909@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43956CB7.4050900@rogers.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: >> James Knott wrote: >> >>> marius wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/5/05, Meng Cheah wrote: >>>> >>>>> Howard >>>>> >>>>> What do you mean by "Something very bad happened to the Windows_98 >>>>> installed on it. I think we should all support Microsoft's efforts >>>>> to eliminate pirate copies of their operating system, don't you?" >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm sure Howard meant that he decided to do Bill G's bidding and >>>> deleted the pirated version of Win98 on it and replaced it with a >>>> Penguin. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) >> >> >> I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) > > OK, now I get it. Code for "pirated version". > I was wondering what has William Park got to do with it. > > In my haste, William Park==> His Billyness? :-) No, it's Sir Billy, the guy out on the left coast. > Duh! > > I'd better get more sleep :-) Good idea. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 12:49:38 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:49:38 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <20051206063254.GA3281-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> <20051206041715.GA2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <43951D44.6020505@pppoe.ca> <20051206063254.GA3281@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439588E2.6060800@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 12:10:28AM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: >>Thanks. I've an old empty case with power supply. >>Thinking and looking at either going the S754 + Sempron way or a laptop. >>Any cheap integrated board with video that you recommend/suggest? > > > How about > - Abit KV-81 -- it has Gblan. > - Asus K8V-MX > They go for about $75 (www.infonec.com). Thanks, will take a look at Infonec. >>How was the $699 Acer TravelMate 2312LCi you checked out? >>I remember you weren't too impressed. >>Can it handle Linux? >>Did you try it out with Knoppix? > > > No, I decided against laptop (it's SiS based, so should be supported by > Linux). Instead, I bought Antec Minuet case, and drilled and bolted a > handle on the case. So, I can now carry it like briefcase. :-) A <4 inch thick briefcase, cool. I remember the box(es) you brought to your talk at IBM :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:32:22 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:32:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? Message-ID: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to sending the forwarded message as an attachment? Thanks. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:42:48 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:42:48 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A0F6.5080705-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4395A368.3030600@sympatico.ca> Steve wrote: > I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) > > Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to > sending the forwarded message as an attachment? > > Thanks. > > -Steve. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > On my Thunderbird, it's Edit -> Preferences -> Composition. There's a box for Forwarding as Attachment or In Line. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:38:01 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:38:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A0F6.5080705-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> Steve wrote: > I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) > > Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to > sending the forwarded message as an attachment? Sure is. From the top menu, select "Edit" then "Preferences". When the new box displays select "Composition" from the icons on the left. There you'll see the very first setting is "Forward messages" and a drop-down menu. Pick "Inline" instead of "as attachment" and then click "OK". That's it. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:43:32 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:43:32 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A249.6030406-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> Message-ID: <4395A394.7000704@gmail.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Steve wrote: > >> I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) >> >> Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to >> sending the forwarded message as an attachment? > > > Sure is. > > From the top menu, select "Edit" then "Preferences". When the new box > displays select "Composition" from the icons on the left. There you'll > see the very first setting is "Forward messages" and a drop-down menu. > > Pick "Inline" instead of "as attachment" and then click "OK". That's it. > > - Evan Thanks! I also found this: Thunderbird ? user_pref("mail.forward_message_mode", 1); // 0 = attachment, 1 = inline. This I think is for Thunderbird 1.5 RC, that allows you to edit the config similar to Firefox's "about:config". Accessed from the Advanced Options Config Editor. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:46:42 2005 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:46:42 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A249.6030406-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> Message-ID: <4395A452.1010301@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Steve wrote: > >> I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) >> >> Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to >> sending the forwarded message as an attachment? > > > > Sure is. > > From the top menu, select "Edit" then "Preferences". When the new box > displays select "Composition" from the icons on the left. There you'll > see the very first setting is "Forward messages" and a drop-down menu. > > Pick "Inline" instead of "as attachment" and then click "OK". That's it. > I am using version 1.0.6 and I do not have a "Preferences" in the Edit drop down. Can anyone help? I would like to see what I can control with preferences. Thanks Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:49:10 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:49:10 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A0F6.5080705-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4395A4E6.2070409@pppoe.ca> Steve wrote: > I hope some people here use Thunderbird... :-) > > Is there a setting to forward a message "in-line" as opposed to sending > the forwarded message as an attachment? > > Thanks. > > -Steve. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_:_FAQs_:_Using_Plain_Text -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:51:47 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:51:47 -0500 Subject: Thunderbird & Firefox As Default Message-ID: <4395A583.1020205@sympatico.ca> I have changed my RH9 to FC4 and I still have a few problems I haven't been able to resolve. It was a fresh install, but I kept the old /home partition intact. I'm using Thunderbird and Firefox that came with FC4. If I click on a URL inside a mail message, I get nothing. Previously, I was able to click a box in both Firefox and Thunderbird that would make them the default apps, but these boxes are missing in both programs. Any idea how I can make these apps my default apps for mail and browser? Right now, I don't have a default browser at all, which seems odd for a new installation. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:40:19 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:40:19 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A452.1010301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> <4395A452.1010301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4395B0E3.7010605@telly.org> Stephen wrote: > I am using version 1.0.6 and I do not have a "Preferences" in the Edit > drop down. I don't think it's a version issue; I use 1.0.6 myself. What I do notice is that the preferences box is found in different places in the Linux and Windows versions of tbird. In Linux it's under Edit->Preferences In Windows it's under Tools->Options Once there, the rest works the same: > When the new box displays select "Composition" from the icons on the > left. There you'll see the very first setting is "Forward messages" > and a drop-down menu. Hope this helps. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 17:31:20 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:31:20 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <4394F9C9.3020306-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051206173120.GP3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:39:05PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > Anyone with experience using motherboards with ULI chipsets? > > I was looking at an Asus motherboard, Asus K8U-X Socket 754 ULI M1689 > Chipset DDR400 Serial ATA Raid AGP 8X 10/100 Lan 5.1 Ch Audio. > $68.99 at Canada Computers. > > Understand the company is a Taiwanese company started in 2002. > http://www.uli.com.tw/eng/index_eng.php > Motherboards that use the M1689 chipset include Asus, Gigabyte, > ChainTech, DFI, Abit and Asrock. I keep wondering if they are related to ALi. I have used machines with ALi chipsets (Asus P5A for example) which worked great. I don't have any experience with ULi yet. I know many ATI chipset boards use ULi south bridges since ATI's 'SATA 2' south bridge isn't ready and ATI's north bridge uses the same interconnect as ULi (that being I believe PCIe). I wouldn't touch the ATI chipsets yet, but that doesn't mean ULi doesn't work. Personally I have only used VIA and nVidia with athlon 64s so far, and I have been very happy with them. I haven't seen anything from ULi that makes me want to get one of those instead. I also personally don't see the point in the socket 754 particularly, since I think a cpu like the athlon 64 really needs the memory bandwidth of dual channel memory, and I don't think a Semptron is my kind of cpu. For some tasks however, being cheap is more important and then they probably do make sense. Of course, forget the "raid" option is there. It isn't hardware raid and is only really useful for windows which doesn't do software raid very well. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 17:41:35 2005 From: jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:41:35 -0500 Subject: Open source in Canadian libraries Message-ID: My mom is a librarian and sent me this wonderful link: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContainer.do?containerType=Issue&containerId=23264 -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 17:43:10 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:43:10 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4395509D.5030003-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 03:49:33AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William Park wrote: > >We are member-driven organization. That means, we gotta have bodies > >first, then try to coordinate. > > > That's not how it works. > > 1) First you express a vision and realistic goals based on that vision. > > 2) People choose to join based on affinity with the vision and goals. > > 3) Then, based on resources at hand (people, money, technology, etc), > you develop plans to accomplish the goals. > > I'm not complaining about the lack of #3, I agree that's premature. I'm > commenting on the bypassing of #1. Plans can change frequently, but > goals change rarely and vision should be a constant. Are you always like this? Even prima donna stop singing when they are not on stage. How many time do we have to tell you, "THAT IS NOT HOW TLUG WORKS." Group of Linux guys got together over beer, and that become TLUG. Later, those guys decided to have something formal, and that brought forth GTALUG. It's always body first, idea second, and action third. Other organizations may work differently. But, different strokes for different people. > It was not I who changed the rules and said that TLUG was morphing into > a pay-to-join organization. There you go again. TLUG used to be just mailing list and monthly meetings. That will stay the same. GTALUG is just a formal layer created on top of that. You've been involved with TLUG far longer than me. And, I fail to see why you need this explained so repeatedly. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:07:55 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:07:55 -0500 Subject: MySQL database backup from the client Message-ID: <4395D37B.4060506@alteeve.com> Hi, I have been all over the MySQL (4.1) docs trying to find a way to dump a database from within MySQL (through perl). I know I can make a sysem call to 'mysqldump' but then I would have to pass the password essentially over the commnd line which expses it (even if for just a moment). I know you can use 'SHOW CREATE TABLE xyz' to get the table schema then 'BACKUP TABLE...' or 'SELECT INTO ... OUTFILE' to get the data but this would e, to say the least, combersome. Is there something like 'BACKUP DATABASE foo OUTFILE ...'? There is no concern in my case about the database being accessed while I do the dump. Thanks! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:13:38 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:13:38 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <20051206173120.GP3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> <20051206173120.GP3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4395D4D2.3090302@pppoe.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I keep wondering if they are related to ALi. I have used machines with > ALi chipsets (Asus P5A for example) which worked great. I don't have > any experience with ULi yet. I know many ATI chipset boards use ULi > south bridges since ATI's 'SATA 2' south bridge isn't ready and ATI's > north bridge uses the same interconnect as ULi (that being I believe > PCIe). I wouldn't touch the ATI chipsets yet, but that doesn't mean ULi > doesn't work. ULi is an independent subsidiary of ALi. The company started in 2002. I was curious as to if anyone had any experience with it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:19:34 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:19:34 +0200 (IST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Mike Newman wrote: > On 12/5/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I used to spend $200 to $300 on PC Power & Cooling TurboCool 300s, but >> now I use Enermax or Antec for a lot less money. > I got an Enermax a year ago and it's worked flawlessly until about two > weeks ago. It just coughed and suffered permadeath this weekend. > I loved that the fan kept running for a couple of minutes after > shutdown (why doesn't every component do that?), but for the price I > really expected more than a year of service. Just my $0.02. You could introduce some metrics using f.ex. (power * known_life)/price, otherwise it's comparing apples with prunes. A brand name PSU would have to run 4 times longer than a no name cheap one on account of the price difference alone. That is equivalent to roughly being twice as large or running 20 degrees (Celsius) cooler (imagine the fans this requires, given standard PSU size). This is very roughly estimated, based on the fact that electronic component life (esp. capacitors) halves with each 10 degree C temperature rise. To put this into perspective, 4khours 105degC caps (this is very high quality for todays standards) run at 55 degC will last about 14 years. Put in 2k hours caps (run of the mill) and run them at 65 degC and they will last at most 3.5 years. Put in standard 85degC caps with 2k hours and it will last just under two years at 55 degC. The actual life of the unit is influenced by all of its parts, so it will last less than calculated like this. So imho barring any drastic departures from the laws of physics or severely flawed design, temperature is the most important factor in PSU life. Of course a surge filter is a very good investment if the PSUs are to die of old age ONLY. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:49:12 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:49:12 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051206184912.GQ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:19:34PM +0200, Peter wrote: > You could introduce some metrics using f.ex. (power * known_life)/price, > otherwise it's comparing apples with prunes. A brand name PSU would have > to run 4 times longer than a no name cheap one on account of the price > difference alone. That is equivalent to roughly being twice as large or > running 20 degrees (Celsius) cooler (imagine the fans this requires, > given standard PSU size). How many $s is a stable system worth to you? I have seen systems that would crash randomly and corrupt the filesystem once in a while, which in the end were fixed by replacing the power supply. So while the power supply was "working" (it was delivering power) it wasn't working very well and was wasting a lot of time on reinstalls to fix the damage it was causing. Probably wasn't good for the components in the system either. Not delivering power isn't the only failure mode of a power supply. Delivering the wrong power may be even worse. Had it simply not worked at all, it would have been much quicker since then the power supply would have simply been changed rather than blaming windows (the machine had win98 at the time) for being unstable. > This is very roughly estimated, based on the fact that electronic > component life (esp. capacitors) halves with each 10 degree C > temperature rise. To put this into perspective, 4khours 105degC caps > (this is very high quality for todays standards) run at 55 degC will > last about 14 years. Put in 2k hours caps (run of the mill) and run them > at 65 degC and they will last at most 3.5 years. Put in standard 85degC > caps with 2k hours and it will last just under two years at 55 degC. The > actual life of the unit is influenced by all of its parts, so it will > last less than calculated like this. > > So imho barring any drastic departures from the laws of physics or > severely flawed design, temperature is the most important factor in PSU > life. > > Of course a surge filter is a very good investment if the PSUs are to > die of old age ONLY. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:48:34 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:48:34 -0500 Subject: MySQL database backup from the client In-Reply-To: <4395D37B.4060506-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4395D37B.4060506@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4395DD02.2070006@georgetown.wehave.net> Madison Kelly wrote: > I have been all over the MySQL (4.1) docs trying to find a way to dump > a database from within MySQL (through perl). I know I can make a sysem > call to 'mysqldump' but then I would have to pass the password > essentially over the commnd line which expses it (even if for just a > moment). You don't have to put your password on the command line. You can put passwords into your config file. Create a ~/.my.cnf file for whichever user is running the dump and in there put something like: [mysqldump] password=xyz Or maybe it's like this (haven't used it in a while): [client] password=xyz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:51:25 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:51:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395A249.6030406-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> Message-ID: <4395DDAD.50601@georgetown.wehave.net> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > From the top menu, select "Edit" then "Preferences". When the new box > displays select "Composition" from the icons on the left. There you'll > see the very first setting is "Forward messages" and a drop-down menu. > > Pick "Inline" instead of "as attachment" and then click "OK". That's it. You can also do it on a case-by-case basis, Message -> Forward As -> Inline. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:08:45 2005 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:08:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: MySQL database backup from the client In-Reply-To: <4395D37B.4060506-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4395D37B.4060506@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <34690.66.11.182.5.1133881725.squirrel@cbits.ca> Why not use phpmyadmin http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/index.php > Hi, > > I have been all over the MySQL (4.1) docs trying to find a way to > dump a database from within MySQL (through perl). I know I can make a > sysem call to 'mysqldump' but then I would have to pass the password > essentially over the commnd line which expses it (even if for just a > moment). > > I know you can use 'SHOW CREATE TABLE xyz' to get the table schema > then 'BACKUP TABLE...' or 'SELECT INTO ... OUTFILE' to get the data but > this would e, to say the least, combersome. Is there something like > 'BACKUP DATABASE foo OUTFILE ...'? > > There is no concern in my case about the database being accessed > while I do the dump. > > Thanks! > > Madison > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up > Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org > Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:59:27 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:59:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Thunderbird forward message NOT as attachment? In-Reply-To: <4395DDAD.50601-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A0F6.5080705@gmail.com> <4395A249.6030406@telly.org> <4395DDAD.50601@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <4395DF8F.1090605@gmail.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> From the top menu, select "Edit" then "Preferences". When the new box >> displays select "Composition" from the icons on the left. There you'll >> see the very first setting is "Forward messages" and a drop-down menu. >> >> Pick "Inline" instead of "as attachment" and then click "OK". That's it. > > You can also do it on a case-by-case basis, Message -> Forward As -> > Inline. Thanks for that... I did not notice that either. -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 19:37:40 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:37:40 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051206184912.GQ3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051206184912.GQ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051206193740.GA2179@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 01:49:12PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > How many $s is a stable system worth to you? I have seen systems that > would crash randomly and corrupt the filesystem once in a while, which > in the end were fixed by replacing the power supply. So while the power > supply was "working" (it was delivering power) it wasn't working very > well and was wasting a lot of time on reinstalls to fix the damage it > was causing. Not wasted. It provided jobs for sysadmins. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 19:47:14 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:47:14 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051206193740.GA2179-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051206184912.GQ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051206193740.GA2179@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051206194714.GR3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 02:37:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 01:49:12PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > How many $s is a stable system worth to you? I have seen systems that > > would crash randomly and corrupt the filesystem once in a while, which > > in the end were fixed by replacing the power supply. So while the power > > supply was "working" (it was delivering power) it wasn't working very > > well and was wasting a lot of time on reinstalls to fix the damage it > > was causing. > > Not wasted. It provided jobs for sysadmins. Not when you are a home user it doesn't. Then it just wastes time you could have spent playing games. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:07:14 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:07:14 -0500 Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051206210714.GB2570@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:19:34PM +0200, Peter wrote: > You could introduce some metrics using f.ex. (power * known_life)/price, > otherwise it's comparing apples with prunes. A brand name PSU would have > to run 4 times longer than a no name cheap one on account of the price > difference alone. That is equivalent to roughly being twice as large or > running 20 degrees (Celsius) cooler (imagine the fans this requires, > given standard PSU size). You're assuming that both power supplies cause no damage when they fail. If the no name supply destroys your motherboard or disk when it fails, then the brand name supply only has to last a small fraction of the time to be a bargain. Even with a clean failure, if you put any value on having your computer available and on the cost of your time to get a replacement power supply and install it, the brand name supply is also still a cheaper deal if it lasts a little while longer. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:37:54 2005 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:37:54 -0500 Subject: default browser, email client Message-ID: <1133901474.9535.10.camel@localhost> A question was posted earlier today about setting defaults for a browser and email client in FC4. ( at the time I only had access to a Windows machine and OE, so I waited to answer until I could use quality software). Here is how to do it in Gnome: System --> Configuration --> Gnome --> Gnome Control Center --> Advanced --> Preferred Applications I assume that you'd follow a similar route in KDE etc HTH John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:39:59 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:39:59 -0500 Subject: Thunderbird & Firefox As Default In-Reply-To: <4395A583.1020205-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A583.1020205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512061239i1ae7117v5842e7ace3a82246@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/05, Moniz Family wrote: > I have changed my RH9 to FC4 and I still have a few problems I haven't > been able to resolve. It was a fresh install, but I kept the old /home > partition intact. > > I'm using Thunderbird and Firefox that came with FC4. If I click on a > URL inside a mail message, I get nothing. Previously, I was able to > click a box in both Firefox and Thunderbird that would make them the > default apps, but these boxes are missing in both programs. Any idea how > I can make these apps my default apps for mail and browser? Right now, I > don't have a default browser at all, which seems odd for a new installation. Not sure about Thunderbird, but under the General tab of Edit->Preferences in Firefox, there's an option to check if it's the default browser when it starts up. What version of Firefox comes with FC4? I just upgraded to FF1.5, and as always quite pleased with it. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:33:20 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:33:20 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. Message-ID: Due to the fact that the hardware related posts, that don't really have much to do with linux are so popular, we created a new list just for hardware related discussion. I personally don't mind having the discussion about hardware, as this group has some of the most experienced computer people in general, However I think we should keep the tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org list dedicated to things that actually involve linux. Here are the details: hw-kPTIhHHajqAdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org This is a mailing list for hardware specific issues, discussion, etc. The idea is to move the generic hardware discussions that have been happening on the main list that do not necessarily have a lot to do with Linux to a more specific list. To subscribe go to: http://lists.gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/hw Does this work for everyone? -Joseph- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:43:51 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:43:51 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512061343sd98ea16wbc04ca8847b5f8f5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > Does this work for everyone? Works here, waiting to be authorized ;-) and glad to see the wiki's back up! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:51:03 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:51:03 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories Message-ID: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> I cannot seem to get one url in a form that Yast will accept. I have followed the Novell 'coolsolutions' instructions in adding the 'supplementary' repository, here are 2 of my unsuccessful stabs [ using ftp ]. mirrors.kernel.org/suse/i386/supplementary/KDE/update_for_10.0 and the same with /yast-source added. I have also tried ftp.suse.com as the site instead of the mirror. There is also a 'supplementary/misc' tree to add in addition to KDE. It doesn't look like there is a 'meta' package to do the kde 3.5 upgrade a la Kubuntu, unless some user here has a pointer for me. Using 'rpm' for each package is not very appealing. Back in the days of SuSE 6 and 7, I am sure we upgraded by using a meta package. Cheers -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:02:50 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:02:50 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <4394F9C9.3020306-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <200512061702.50875.mervc@eol.ca> On Monday 05 December 2005 21:39, Meng Cheah wrote: > Anyone with experience using motherboards with ULI chipsets? > I have been using an ASRock K8Upgrade board for a few weeks and it has been ok with the ALi chip. I haven't tried the SATA controller and drive yet since I was unsure how well the kernel handled SATA. The MB was $75 at CanadaSys. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:29:07 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:29:07 -0500 Subject: OT: motherboards with ULI chipsets In-Reply-To: <200512061702.50875.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4394F9C9.3020306@pppoe.ca> <200512061702.50875.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <439610B3.2030004@pppoe.ca> Merv Curley wrote: > On Monday 05 December 2005 21:39, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>Anyone with experience using motherboards with ULI chipsets? >> > > > I have been using an ASRock K8Upgrade board for a few weeks and it has been > ok with the ALi chip. I haven't tried the SATA controller and drive yet > since I was unsure how well the kernel handled SATA. > > The MB was $75 at CanadaSys. > Yes, it uses the ULi M1689 chipset. Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:41:44 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:41:44 -0500 Subject: Thunderbird & Firefox As Default In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512061239i1ae7117v5842e7ace3a82246-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4395A583.1020205@sympatico.ca> <99a6c38f0512061239i1ae7117v5842e7ace3a82246@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439613A8.2090907@sympatico.ca> Scott Elcomb wrote: >On 12/6/05, Moniz Family wrote: > > >>I have changed my RH9 to FC4 and I still have a few problems I haven't >>been able to resolve. It was a fresh install, but I kept the old /home >>partition intact. >> >>I'm using Thunderbird and Firefox that came with FC4. If I click on a >>URL inside a mail message, I get nothing. Previously, I was able to >>click a box in both Firefox and Thunderbird that would make them the >>default apps, but these boxes are missing in both programs. Any idea how >>I can make these apps my default apps for mail and browser? Right now, I >>don't have a default browser at all, which seems odd for a new installation. >> >> > >Not sure about Thunderbird, but under the General tab of >Edit->Preferences in Firefox, there's an option to check if it's the >default browser when it starts up. > >What version of Firefox comes with FC4? I just upgraded to FF1.5, and >as always quite pleased with it. > >-- >Scott Elcomb >psema4.gotdns.com > Yes, I have that option on Firefox on another PC, but not with FC4's Firefox. Version 1.0.7 comes w/ FC4. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:48:02 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:48:02 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <200512061651.03957.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051206174802.5c45d2d8.tleslie@tcn.net> When you figure it out, let me know too, I too couldn't figure it out, i downloaded the DVD iso image and mounted it (-o loop) on my HD and directed Yast to that, just to get my standard ability to add packages in the 10.0 distro. i just upgraded to 10.0 and havnt had time to figure out what SUSE changed since the 9.X days, but they did something. Maybe the mirrors dont have much stuff yet for support of 10.0? -tl On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:51:03 -0500 Merv Curley wrote: > I cannot seem to get one url in a form that Yast will accept. I have > followed the Novell 'coolsolutions' instructions in adding the > 'supplementary' repository, here are 2 of my unsuccessful stabs [ using > ftp ]. > > mirrors.kernel.org/suse/i386/supplementary/KDE/update_for_10.0 > > and the same with /yast-source added. > > I have also tried ftp.suse.com as the site instead of the mirror. > > There is also a 'supplementary/misc' tree to add in addition to KDE. > > It doesn't look like there is a 'meta' package to do the kde 3.5 upgrade a > la Kubuntu, unless some user here has a pointer for me. Using 'rpm' for > each package is not very appealing. Back in the days of SuSE 6 and 7, I > am sure we upgraded by using a meta package. > > Cheers > > -- > Merv Curley > Toronto, Ont. Can > > SuSE 10 > Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 23:32:47 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:32:47 -0500 Subject: default browser, email client In-Reply-To: <1133901474.9535.10.camel@localhost> References: <1133901474.9535.10.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <43961F9F.90601@sympatico.ca> John McGregor wrote: >A question was posted earlier today about setting defaults for a browser >and email client in FC4. ( at the time I only had access to a Windows >machine and OE, so I waited to answer until I could use quality >software). > >Here is how to do it in Gnome: > >System --> Configuration --> Gnome --> Gnome Control Center --> Advanced >--> Preferred Applications > >I assume that you'd follow a similar route in KDE etc > >HTH > >John > >BE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Thanks for remembering to answer John. It worked! I couldn't find it in KDE, and FC4 changes the Gnome menu, but I found it in Desktop --> Preferences --> More Preferences --> Preferred Applications in the Gnome menu. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 23:39:29 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 01:39:29 +0200 (IST) Subject: Another dead power supply In-Reply-To: <20051206210714.GB2570-FexrNA+1sEo9RQMjcVF9lNBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <50292.207.188.88.84.1133661222.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051204022324.GB3132@node1.opengeometry.net> <50437.207.188.88.84.1133664037.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20051205202328.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051206210714.GB2570@lupus.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, John Macdonald wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:19:34PM +0200, Peter wrote: >> You could introduce some metrics using f.ex. (power * known_life)/price, >> otherwise it's comparing apples with prunes. A brand name PSU would have >> to run 4 times longer than a no name cheap one on account of the price >> difference alone. That is equivalent to roughly being twice as large or >> running 20 degrees (Celsius) cooler (imagine the fans this requires, >> given standard PSU size). > > You're assuming that both power supplies cause no damage when > they fail. If the no name supply destroys your motherboard > or disk when it fails, then the brand name supply only has to > last a small fraction of the time to be a bargain. Even with > a clean failure, if you put any value on having your computer > available and on the cost of your time to get a replacement > power supply and install it, the brand name supply is also > still a cheaper deal if it lasts a little while longer. Okay, my mistake, I omitted the important part: Real users who care replace the power supplies after a given number of hours estimated as above. Same for disks and same for the entire system (there are capacitors that wear out on the motherboard SMSPUs also - and I do not mean the fake ones that pop early). The trick is to know when problems are due and to have *sheduled* downtime as opposed to unsheduled. And the only thing that the PSU price changes is the time sheduled to the change. Of course a safe(r) way is to add a crowbar protector in the secondary (and not rely on the PSUs) - this is very basic reliability engineering - you do not rely on a failing part to do the safekeeping of other parts. Every serious piece of equipment with life cycle management has such a policy in place. If you wait for it to fail you are inviting disaster. There never has been, and there never will be such a thing as a 'perfectly safe' failure mode. Look at the big guys (NASA, ESA, you name it). When you rely on a safety mechanism to save something and you have the alternative of shutting it down beforehead you are, imho, playing with fire. Hours meters are your best friends. smartctl -a etc will tell you a lot about a system (and its motherboard) assuming they were 'mated' at 'birth'. By the time your no name PSU hits 2 years (~20k hours) start worrying. A good name PSU maximum 4 years. A disk 2 years (IDE). Any P3+ motherboard with smpsu on board will 'expire' in up to 3 years for the same reason. If the equipment runs hot (no a/c) the times are lower. These figures are based on limited experience, so use with some care. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 00:13:20 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 06 Dec 2005 19:13:20 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051206174310.GA2544-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 03:49:33AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > William Park wrote: > > >We are member-driven organization. That means, we gotta have bodies > > >first, then try to coordinate. > > > > > That's not how it works. > > > > 1) First you express a vision and realistic goals based on that vision. > > > > 2) People choose to join based on affinity with the vision and goals. > > > > 3) Then, based on resources at hand (people, money, technology, etc), > > you develop plans to accomplish the goals. > > > > I'm not complaining about the lack of #3, I agree that's premature. I'm > > commenting on the bypassing of #1. Plans can change frequently, but > > goals change rarely and vision should be a constant. > > Are you always like this? Like what? As far as I can see, Evan has refrained from personal attacks. > Even prima donna stop singing when they are not on stage. How many time do > we have to tell you, "THAT IS NOT HOW TLUG WORKS." > > Group of Linux guys got together over beer, and that become TLUG. Perhaps, I don't know as I wasn't there at the beginning. I attended my first TLUG meeting in about 1997. > Later, those guys decided to have something formal, and that brought > forth GTALUG. That's inaccurate, IMO. There were several abortive attempts at incorporation. The latest (successful attempt) appears to have been organized by a small subset of the "membership" which has traditionally been defined by membership in this list. AFAICS, the purpose of incorporation and the reason for charging a membership fee has never been clearly communicated nor does there appear to be a wide concensus on this list. > It's always body first, idea second, and action third. When TLUG has been involved in publicly visible events in the past (COMDEX, CLUE Centre, intall fests, etc.) there has usually been one or two members who have presented a vision and organized a group of volunteers around that vision. > Other organizations may work differently. But, different strokes for > different people. > > > > It was not I who changed the rules and said that TLUG was morphing into > > a pay-to-join organization. > > There you go again. TLUG used to be just mailing list and monthly > meetings. That will stay the same. GTALUG is just a formal layer > created on top of that. You've been involved with TLUG far longer than > me. That's true. > And, I fail to see why you need this explained so repeatedly. Because it has never been properly explained. I suspect that Evan and I aren't the only long time members who feel that way. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 00:19:36 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:19:36 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <20051206174802.5c45d2d8.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <20051206174802.5c45d2d8.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> On Tuesday 06 December 2005 17:48, ted leslie wrote: > When you figure it out, let me know too, > I too couldn't figure it out, > > i downloaded the DVD iso image and mounted it (-o loop) > on my HD and directed Yast to that, just to get my standard ability to > add packages in the 10.0 distro. > > i just upgraded to 10.0 and havnt had time to figure out what SUSE > changed since the 9.X days, but they did something. Maybe the mirrors > dont have much stuff yet for support of 10.0? > > -tl > > No all the new stuff is there, just being able to use Yast is my problem. I have had success adding other repositories, the only one that has been a problem is supplementary. I have added Java, flash, MPlayer, etc from others but now I am stuck. I know there are other Suse users here, we'll get help. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 00:39:04 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:39:04 -0500 Subject: default browser, email client In-Reply-To: <43961F9F.90601-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1133901474.9535.10.camel@localhost> <43961F9F.90601@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <43962F28.5020303@telly.org> John Moniz wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > >> A question was posted earlier today about setting defaults for a browser >> and email client in FC4. ( at the time I only had access to a Windows >> machine and OE, so I waited to answer until I could use quality >> software). >> >> Here is how to do it in Gnome: >> [...] > > I couldn't find it in KDE One possible way is through the KDE control centre -- I think that's a KDE-general tool and not distro specific: From the left-side menu of the control centre, choose Components -> File Associations. Under "known types" find text->html and make sure your preferred browser is at the top of the list in the "Applications Order". HTH. This was on KDE 3.4.2. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pkay-Wu5PbJhdqlKw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 00:53:00 2005 From: pkay-Wu5PbJhdqlKw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Phil Kay) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:53:00 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <200512061919.36229.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <20051206174802.5c45d2d8.tleslie@tcn.net> <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1133916780.24748.4.camel@athlonlinux.thekays.ca> On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 19:19 -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > No all the new stuff is there, just being able to use Yast is my problem. I > have had success adding other repositories, the only one that has been a > problem is supplementary. I have added Java, flash, MPlayer, etc from > others but now I am stuck. I know there are other Suse users here, we'll > get help. I'm using OpenSuSE and adding a repository was okay. My first problem was using a mirror that didn't have a complete collection. This page has a list of opensuse mirrors and links to the repositories: http://www.opensuse.org/Mirrors_Released_Version The process to add a repository seems pretty much the same as with 9.3 I'm not sure if there is a major difference between SUSE 10.0 and OpenSUSE other than some proprietary packages (java, acrobat reader, etc.) that are not included in OpenSUSE. -- Phil Kay It takes less time to do a thing right than to explain why you did it wrong. - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 03:01:59 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 22:01:59 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051207030159.GA2254@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 07:13:20PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > It's always body first, idea second, and action third. > > When TLUG has been involved in publicly visible events in the past > (COMDEX, CLUE Centre, intall fests, etc.) there has usually been one > or two members who have presented a vision and organized a group of > volunteers around that vision. TLUG is holding no one prisoner. Those who want Evan's vision can follow Evan. If his vision is in my self-interest, I too will follow. > > And, I fail to see why you need this explained so repeatedly. > > Because it has never been properly explained. I suspect that Evan and > I aren't the only long time members who feel that way. Didn't I just explain to you? I gave you the explanation that was given to me. I'm satisfied with it. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 04:27:46 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:27:46 -0500 Subject: anonymous FTP Message-ID: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> I have a need to transfer archived files via FTP between machines at home. I have the FTP directory set up on one machine. Under /ftp/pub are a collection of archived files which I have kept over the years. The host machine is running FC3, and the client machine is running FC4. I have ensured that the vsftp daemon is running, and that the machines can "see" each other. I can contact the FC3 machine through my web browser. However, what is happening is that I can log on to the remote machine, but as soon as I do an "ls" or a file transfer I get an error "no route to host". Any ideas what is going on? Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 04:47:13 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:47:13 -0500 Subject: anonymous FTP In-Reply-To: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> References: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <43966951.5080204@istop.com> Paul King wrote: > I have a need to transfer archived files via FTP between machines at > home. I have the FTP directory set up on one machine. Under /ftp/pub are > a collection of archived files which I have kept over the years. The > host machine is running FC3, and the client machine is running FC4. > > I have ensured that the vsftp daemon is running, and that the machines > can "see" each other. I can contact the FC3 machine through my web > browser. > > However, what is happening is that I can log on to the remote machine, > but as soon as I do an "ls" or a file transfer I get an error "no route > to host". Any ideas what is going on? Some firewall ports are blocked. FTP is a tricky in fact protocol. zb. > Paul King > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 05:08:15 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:08:15 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051207030159.GA2254-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051207030159.GA2254@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43966E3F.1000301@telly.org> William Park wrote: >TLUG is holding no one prisoner. > See below. >Those who want Evan's vision can follow Evan. > I'm not offering an alternate vision. Stop deflecting. >TLUG used to be just mailing list and monthly meetings. That will stay the same. GTALUG is just a formal layer created on top of that. > That's not quite being honest about the situation. There is no TLUG website anymore, it has been hijacked by GTALUG to peddle memberships and DSL service. Indeed, right there on the top page of tlug.ss.org, it says: "Hello and welcome to GTALUG (formerly known as TLUG)" This is no "formal layer on top of" the old TLUG website. It indicates that TLUG has been subsumed into GTALUG with no separate TLUG site (and certainly without any mandate). IMO, GTALUG is indeed holding the TLUG website prisoner; it has denied the presence of a TLUG website distinct from GTALUG. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 05:15:06 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 07 Dec 2005 00:15:06 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051207030159.GA2254-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051206044624.GB2682@node1.opengeometry.net> <99a6c38f0512052120k10e29f5cj99a8afbdca6952f9@mail.gmail.com> <20051206065410.GA3425@node1.opengeometry.net> <4395509D.5030003@telly.org> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051207030159.GA2254@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 07:13:20PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > > It's always body first, idea second, and action third. > > > > When TLUG has been involved in publicly visible events in the past > > (COMDEX, CLUE Centre, intall fests, etc.) there has usually been one > > or two members who have presented a vision and organized a group of > > volunteers around that vision. > > TLUG is holding no one prisoner. Those who want Evan's vision can > follow Evan. If his vision is in my self-interest, I too will follow. > > > > And, I fail to see why you need this explained so repeatedly. > > > > Because it has never been properly explained. I suspect that Evan and > > I aren't the only long time members who feel that way. > > Didn't I just explain to you? I gave you the explanation that was given > to me. I'm satisfied with it. The only thing you've explained is that contrary views are unwelcome. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 13:23:50 2005 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:23:50 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> Joseph Kubik wrote: > http://lists.gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/hw > > Does this work for everyone? No not really, I don't see a need ... -- (On going to war over religion:) "You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." -- Rich Jeni __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 13:29:44 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:29:44 -0500 Subject: anonymous FTP In-Reply-To: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> References: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <20051207132944.GA5162@ettin> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 11:27:46PM -0500, Paul King wrote: >I have a need to transfer archived files via FTP between machines at >home. I have the FTP directory set up on one machine. Under /ftp/pub are >a collection of archived files which I have kept over the years. The >host machine is running FC3, and the client machine is running FC4. Rsync and ssh may be a better solution for you. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 97 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 13:39:45 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:39:45 +0000 Subject: OpenOffice Calc column limit? Message-ID: <4396E621.7090708@cheapersafer.com> Does OpenOffice Calc have any limits on the number of columns? -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 14:03:23 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:03:23 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <1133916780.24748.4.camel-qgzJPrZbLTdkqIDb8vvs/hD8XtZQyXOh@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> <1133916780.24748.4.camel@athlonlinux.thekays.ca> Message-ID: <200512070903.24196.mervc@eol.ca> On Tuesday 06 December 2005 19:53, Phil Kay wrote: > On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 19:19 -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > > No all the new stuff is there, just being able to use Yast is my > > problem. I have had success adding other repositories, the only one > > that has been a problem is supplementary. I have added Java, flash, > > MPlayer, etc from others but now I am stuck. I know there are other > > Suse users here, we'll get help. > > I'm using OpenSuSE and adding a repository was okay. My first problem > was using a mirror that didn't have a complete collection. > > This page has a list of opensuse mirrors and links to the repositories: > http://www.opensuse.org/Mirrors_Released_Version > I used Konq. to check the the repository and KDE 3.5 is there, but Yast will not accept the directory list that I enter. It is exactly as per instructions at the Novell site and what I use in Konq. I will keep trying. The process is almost like the Debian '/apt/sources.list' which I am very familiar with. A mistyped letter and one is doomed to failure. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 14:07:45 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:07:45 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <200512061919.36229.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <20051206174802.5c45d2d8.tleslie@tcn.net> <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1133964466.3067.3.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> SuSE 10 indeed has a number of packages missing from the DVDs. Some of these are for licensing reasons (OpenSuSE is GPL), others...well, for unknown reasons. If you follow the instructions at the Jem Report (http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/) you should be able to find most/all the missing packages. For a review of OpenSUSE and a discussion on the missing packages, read my blog at http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_november_2005.html. Hope that helps. Ken B. On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 19:19 -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > On Tuesday 06 December 2005 17:48, ted leslie wrote: > > When you figure it out, let me know too, > > I too couldn't figure it out, > > > > i downloaded the DVD iso image and mounted it (-o loop) > > on my HD and directed Yast to that, just to get my standard ability to > > add packages in the 10.0 distro. > > > > i just upgraded to 10.0 and havnt had time to figure out what SUSE > > changed since the 9.X days, but they did something. Maybe the mirrors > > dont have much stuff yet for support of 10.0? > > > > -tl > > > > > No all the new stuff is there, just being able to use Yast is my problem. I > have had success adding other repositories, the only one that has been a > problem is supplementary. I have added Java, flash, MPlayer, etc from > others but now I am stuck. I know there are other Suse users here, we'll > get help. > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From magalex-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 14:37:59 2005 From: magalex-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Alex) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:37:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hibernation partition Message-ID: <20051207143759.14283.qmail@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I yanked out a hard disk drive from an old notebook and put in a USB external drive enclosure to use it obviously as a external drive. All is well, except that the drive has a hibernation partition which I just can't seem to reclaim. At least fdisk cannot see it. Under windowsXP the drive shows 100mb (hibernation) and the rest of drive space as unallocated. Any ideas how I can make the whole drive available. tia, MA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:03:56 2005 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:03:56 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail Message-ID: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing any problems with mail delivery lately. I have a client for whom I'm going to do a system upgrade and he mentioned to me that he has been receiving his mail in batches -- about 3 days worth and then nothing or a long period of time followed by another big batch of messages. This client uses Windows, so its hard to tell if its the OS being flaky or if its Sympatico playing silly buggers again. I'd like to be able to eliminate one of the possibilities.(if the truth were known, I'd like to eliminate both possibilities, but that's not my decision). John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:08:31 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 07 Dec 2005 10:08:31 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: <4396E266.60105-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Stephen Allen writes: > Joseph Kubik wrote: > > > http://lists.gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/hw > > > > Does this work for everyone? > > No not really, I don't see a need ... Me neither. I'm sure most people have e-mail clients which can track threads. It's easy enough to ignore a (hardware or otherwise off-topic) thread if you don't find it interesting. This isn't a high traffic mailing list and I don't think that breaking it into several smaller ones will be helpful. In the case of hardware, choosing good hardware to run Linux is very much on topic. Where do you draw the line? When is a hardware question on topic, when does it belong on the other list? -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:06:45 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: <4396E266.60105-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <4396FA85.6040809@telly.org> Stephen Allen wrote: >Joseph Kubik wrote: > > > >>http://lists.gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/hw >> >>Does this work for everyone? >> >> > >No not really, I don't see a need ... > > Most of the hardware questions I see here are: 1) What hardware should I choose for my Linux-based PC? 2) I can't get to work properly under 3) Used equipment and Hardware recycling The issues in (1) and (2) are certainly relevant to a general Linux list, which means that cross-posting is inevitable. As for (3), it's a general community issue and volume seems low enough (in the grand scheme of things) not to justify a separate list. You're welcome to create the list, but I'll still be happy to answer questions about hardware right here. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:09:17 2005 From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:09:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail Message-ID: For the past two weeks, Bell clients of mine have been complaining of connection and queuing problems Lots of outgoing, some incoming D Dave Bour Desktop Solution Center 905.381.0077 dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca For those who just want it to work... Giving you complete IT peace of mind. (Sent via Blackberry) PIN 30073084 (as of May 9,2005) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org Sent: Wed Dec 07 10:03:56 2005 Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Sympatico mail I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing any problems with mail delivery lately. I have a client for whom I'm going to do a system upgrade and he mentioned to me that he has been receiving his mail in batches -- about 3 days worth and then nothing or a long period of time followed by another big batch of messages. This client uses Windows, so its hard to tell if its the OS being flaky or if its Sympatico playing silly buggers again. I'd like to be able to eliminate one of the possibilities.(if the truth were known, I'd like to eliminate both possibilities, but that's not my decision). John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:18:23 2005 From: interlug-vSRlqIl1h/9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (interlug-list) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:18:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail In-Reply-To: <4396F9DC.4070102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1133968703.6092.436.camel@holden.weait.net> On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 10:03, John McGregor wrote: > I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing > any problems with mail delivery lately. I had a look at a sympatico-connected system last night. Outgoing mail is limited to a few lines of text. Anything longer gets a timeout from the smtp server. Here's a big surprise. Tech Support had "no idea... but would you like to hear about our other offers?" Sympatico; you've got questions; we've got blank stares. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:53:11 2005 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:53:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail In-Reply-To: <4396F9DC.4070102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43970567.1090900@yahoo.ca> John McGregor wrote: > I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing > any problems with mail delivery lately. I have a client for whom I'm > going to do a system upgrade and he mentioned to me that he has been > receiving his mail in batches -- about 3 days worth and then nothing or > a long period of time followed by another big batch of messages. This > client uses Windows, so its hard to tell if its the OS being flaky or if > its Sympatico playing silly buggers again. I'd like to be able to > eliminate one of the possibilities.(if the truth were known, I'd like to > eliminate both possibilities, but that's not my decision). I haven't seen any issues, although I have to admit that I don't use my officially supplied Sympatico e-mail for anything other than Sympatico official e-mail. Does your client use the pophm/smtphm servers ? If not I would suggest that they switch over as the legacy servers, are supposedly gonna be obsolete in the near future. -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:02:15 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:02:15 +0000 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail In-Reply-To: <1133968703.6092.436.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> <1133968703.6092.436.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: <43970787.6080807@cheapersafer.com> interlug-list wrote: >On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 10:03, John McGregor wrote: > > >>I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing >>any problems with mail delivery lately. >> >> > >I had a look at a sympatico-connected system last night. Outgoing mail >is limited to a few lines of text. Anything longer gets a timeout from >the smtp server. > >Here's a big surprise. Tech Support had "no idea... but would you like >to hear about our other offers?" Sympatico; you've got questions; we've >got blank stares. > > > I've been seeing some timeouts on the smtp server. You know, I wonder how many Sympatico tech support people could pass the Turing test :-> Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:07:47 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 07 Dec 2005 11:07:47 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail In-Reply-To: <1133968703.6092.436.camel-csCcNl6ta60tuqGvh5Fqhg@public.gmane.org> References: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> <1133968703.6092.436.camel@holden.weait.net> Message-ID: interlug-list writes: > On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 10:03, John McGregor wrote: > > I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing > > any problems with mail delivery lately. > > I had a look at a sympatico-connected system last night. Outgoing mail > is limited to a few lines of text. Anything longer gets a timeout from > the smtp server. Sounds like the classic 'my firewall is going to block all ICMP traffic' problem. Depending on who you ask, there are at least 1 and possibly up to 4 (IIRC) ICMP packet types that you should allow. Google for: icmp types firewall and you should get some good reading (if this is, in fact, the problem). > Here's a big surprise. Tech Support had "no idea... but would you like > to hear about our other offers?" Sympatico; you've got questions; we've > got blank stares. Any sufficiently advanced support team is indistinguishable from sales? HTH, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:01:58 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:01:58 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: <4396FA85.6040809-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> <4396FA85.6040809@telly.org> Message-ID: <43970776.9020302@gmail.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Most of the hardware questions I see here are: > 1) What hardware should I choose for my Linux-based PC? > 2) I can't get to work properly under > 3) Used equipment and Hardware recycling > > The issues in (1) and (2) are certainly relevant to a general Linux > list, which means that cross-posting is inevitable. As for (3), it's a > general community issue and volume seems low enough (in the grand scheme > of things) not to justify a separate list. > > You're welcome to create the list, but I'll still be happy to answer > questions about hardware right here. > > - Evan Well I hope a lot of people here *do* join the new hardware list, because I am going to try to remember to just use that when I have any hardware--linux related question! :-) Otherwise if there are no members on that list, the hardware traffic will just come back to this one! I, for one think it is a good idea. Not a perfect solution, but what ever is? Probably an even better idea would be OT-GTALUG list for all the off-topic messages LOL! Not that I have a problem with any of those. I enjoy reading and occasionally contributing myself. I think the diversity of linux and opensource is reflected in the members on this list, and I am always thankful for that. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:38:52 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:38:52 -0500 Subject: OT: Computer disposal by the City Message-ID: <4397101C.7080400@pppoe.ca> Only for those interested :-) You can dispose of your computer "junk" at the City's computer recycling depots. http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/pdf/solidwastedrop-offdepots.pdf The Learning Support Council decides what computers can be used or refurbished. The remaining equipment is then disposed of through scrap dealers. http://www.resourceproject.org/index.htm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:48:20 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:48:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Computer disposal by the City In-Reply-To: <4397101C.7080400-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4397101C.7080400@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: I've used Electronics Recycling Canada and they do a good job. http://www.electronics-recycling.com/canada/ And its locations: http://www.electronics-recycling.com/ele/canada/locations.asp You might have to call to get their Toronto office. And it's free! On 12/7/05, Meng Cheah wrote: > Only for those interested :-) > > You can dispose of your computer "junk" at the City's computer recycling > depots. http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/pdf/solidwastedrop-offdepots.pdf > > The Learning Support Council decides what computers can be used or > refurbished. The remaining equipment is then disposed of through scrap > dealers. http://www.resourceproject.org/index.htm > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:10:30 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: Hibernation partition In-Reply-To: <20051207143759.14283.qmail-W9LGSkMRpjmB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207143759.14283.qmail@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sd[usb_device] count=4 bs=512 Should clean the partition table completely. -Joseph- On 12/7/05, Anthony Alex wrote: > I yanked out a hard disk drive from an old notebook > and put in a USB external drive enclosure to use it > obviously as a external drive. > > All is well, except that the drive has a hibernation > partition which I just can't seem to reclaim. At least > fdisk cannot see it. > > Under windowsXP the drive shows 100mb (hibernation) > and the rest of drive space as unallocated. > > Any ideas how I can make the whole drive available. > > tia, > MA > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:27:53 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:27:53 -0500 Subject: apache mod_proxy loading problem In-Reply-To: <20051203004618.62824.qmail-5wXab80ol+qA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203004618.62824.qmail@web54714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There are two options that I see. 1. The file permissions do not allow the apache user to load the module correctly. 2. The file exists, but the .so is not the right version for the copy of apache you have and they have a symbols mismatch. I know almost nothing about apache, so you are on your own if this is the case. -Joseph- On 12/2/05, J. Qiang Li wrote: > hi,all > > running Apache/2.0.54 on debian unstable. I am trying to enable mod_proxy but i got this error: > > # apache2ctl -t > Syntax error on line 1 of /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/proxy_http.load: > Cannot load /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_proxy_http.so into server: > /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_proxy_http.so: undefined symbol: ap_proxy_ssl_enable > > the .so file do exist in that location. > > what is wrong ? > > TIA, > > James. > > > > __________________________________________ > Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:48:27 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:48:27 -0500 Subject: anonymous FTP In-Reply-To: <43966951.5080204-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1133929666.4564.7.camel@gandalf> <43966951.5080204@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051207174827.GA2461@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 11:47:13PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Paul King wrote: > >I have a need to transfer archived files via FTP between machines at > >home. I have the FTP directory set up on one machine. Under /ftp/pub are > >a collection of archived files which I have kept over the years. The > >host machine is running FC3, and the client machine is running FC4. > > > >I have ensured that the vsftp daemon is running, and that the machines > >can "see" each other. I can contact the FC3 machine through my web > >browser. > > > >However, what is happening is that I can log on to the remote machine, > >but as soon as I do an "ls" or a file transfer I get an error "no route > >to host". Any ideas what is going on? > > Some firewall ports are blocked. > > FTP is a tricky in fact protocol. Yes, with FTP, you need to open 20 and 21 (or, use 'passive' option). $ lsmod | grep ftp ip_nat_ftp 3072 0 ip_nat 17044 3 ipt_MASQUERADE,iptable_nat,ip_nat_ftp ip_conntrack_ftp 6512 1 ip_nat_ftp ip_conntrack 44732 6 ipt_MASQUERADE,iptable_nat,ipt_state,ip_nat_ftp,ip_nat,ip_conntrack_ftp -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 19:17:05 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice Calc column limit? In-Reply-To: <4396E621.7090708-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E621.7090708@cheapersafer.com> Message-ID: <20051207191705.GS3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 01:39:45PM +0000, Rob Sutherland wrote: > Does OpenOffice Calc have any limits on the number of columns? Probably. Most if not all spreadsheets do. It appears OO.o 1.x has a limit of 255 columns by 32000 rows, at least I can't find a way to change it. I know 2.x has higher limits at least on rows. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 19:30:05 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:30:05 -0500 Subject: Novell will (continue to) support KDE after all In-Reply-To: <437AAEBA.2010504-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Tue, Nov 15, 2005 at 10:59:54PM -0500 References: <437A43A1.6030908@telly.org> <20051115153107.0408f55d.tleslie@tcn.net> <437AAEBA.2010504@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051207143005.A25423@diamond.ss.org> > > The 99.99% of the public that neither knows nor cares about the > difference between C, C++, C# and whatever else is relevant, has a > legitimate beef. To the non-technical end user, it's a legitimate wonder > of how much effort has needlessly gone into duplicating effort. > The last time I had to change my gas filter in the car I went to Canadian Tire and asked to buy a gas filter. I was led to the 'gas filter isle' where I counted 143 different types of gas filters and none of which were for my car. I had to special order mine. So if if non-technical end users can put up with 143 different designs for a coffee filtered sealed in a can they can put up with any duplicating effort. > How much better might the open source desktop be if all the programming, > human design and documentation skills of the community been funnelled > into one program rather than split between two (or more) desktop systems? I claim it would be worse. Design decisions would get locked in by code and little reason would exist to redesign or rebuild. Furthermore code bloat would become a problem, and bad coding decisions would stay forever. As most people are rewarded because they 'added features' instead of cleaning up code the resulting product would become worse and worse over time with no incentive to change it. > > This is not like the diversity of Linux distributions, because the > differences in them is usually more than internal design or personal > taste. Many distros serve different and specialized purposes. OTOH, KDE > and GNOME serve very much the identical purpose. Actually most linux distributions have minor superficial differences. There is a few that have specialized such as hard hat linux targeting embedded systems, but for the most part distros targeting the desktop have minor superficial changes. But as noted in another post, those minor changes may have big result. One person noted that KDE on Slakware was screaming compared to KDE on Suse. That is entirely due to the tweaks in the configuration not the design. > > This long ago stopped being a contest of innovation, since neither GNOME > nor KDE really is doing anything groundbreaking (from the users' > perspective). Elegance of internal design is a fine issue for insiders, > but there are many people who can't tell Riesling from Shiraz and there > are many who can't (and don't want to be bothered to) pick a winner > between KDE and GNOME. In fact there is very little that has been groundbreaking from the users perspective since Apple brought out the Macintosh. All the innovation has been about how things are done internally. To use the your metaphor, the results of the fermentation are secondary to the process of growing the grapes and producing the wine. there are a few that will care about the type and vintage, but most look at the price. > > >They are implemented in different languages, with very different > >designs, and even attempting to "fold them together" is certain to be > >fruitless. > > > > > Moreover, most of the ideas that one does first get re-implemented in > the other. > Korganizer, Evolution > Kopete, Gaim > etc. etc. Almost every KDE function has a GNOME equivalent and vice > versa, and in many cases neither is fully cooked or anywhere as easy to > use as either the Mac or Windows counterparts. We're playing catch-up, > while having our progress seriously impeded by religious arguments over > languages and other issues that in the grand scheme of things are just > geek minutiae. This isn't so much technical Darwinism as it is (in this > case) a needless fragmentation. > What you are forgetting is that this is open source. the geek miutiae is what the people doing these projects care about. User are at least secondary if not fifth or sixth. In this culture having Linus or Richard indorse your piece of crap is more important to you than a million users heaping praise. > I interpret (and support) Ted's plea as wanting the FOSS desktop to be a > collaboration of diverse input rather than a bunch of gratuitous and > generally redundant wheel re-inventions. > I supprt the same idea in the automotive industry but I'm not holding my breath, > FOSS proponents dismiss such POVs at their risk. I doubt that anyone is risking anything other than their own spare time. And finally if any one's person personal project failed for lack of acceptance by the community or the market life will go on and no one will really be detrimented by the effort. If the choice is work on something you like or work on nothing, I will support the people that work on the things they like. I may disagree on their technical choices, I may not use the software they create, but I respect that they did try. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 19:37:21 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:37:21 -0500 Subject: Novell will (continue to) support KDE after all In-Reply-To: <20051207143005.A25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <437A43A1.6030908@telly.org> <20051115153107.0408f55d.tleslie@tcn.net> <437AAEBA.2010504@telly.org> <20051207143005.A25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051207193721.GT3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 02:30:05PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > The last time I had to change my gas filter in the car I went to Canadian Tire and asked to buy a gas filter. I was led to the 'gas filter isle' where I counted 143 different types of gas filters and none of which were for my car. I had to special order mine. So if if non-technical end users can put up with 143 different designs for a coffee filtered sealed in a can they can put up with any duplicating effort. Of course only one of them fits your car, so it isn't as if you have a choice because there are 143 different types for sale. You can pick any desktop you want on linux including none. You have choices so you have to make a decision. The fuel filter involved no research, experimenting, and decision making, simply a 'I need that one'. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 19:48:18 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:48:18 -0500 Subject: Novell will (continue to) support KDE after all In-Reply-To: <20051207193721.GT3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <437A43A1.6030908@telly.org> <20051115153107.0408f55d.tleslie@tcn.net> <437AAEBA.2010504@telly.org> <20051207143005.A25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051207193721.GT3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Sort of.... Once you become a car geek, you discover that so long as the fuel filter meets certain criteria, you really can interchange them. So, having the different distro's package one desktop as primary is very similar. -Joseph 'beat that dead horse'- On 12/7/05, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 02:30:05PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > The last time I had to change my gas filter in the car I went to Canadian Tire and asked to buy a gas filter. I was led to the 'gas filter isle' where I counted 143 different types of gas filters and none of which were for my car. I had to special order mine. So if if non-technical end users can put up with 143 different designs for a coffee filtered sealed in a can they can put up with any duplicating effort. > > Of course only one of them fits your car, so it isn't as if you have a > choice because there are 143 different types for sale. > > You can pick any desktop you want on linux including none. You have > choices so you have to make a decision. The fuel filter involved no > research, experimenting, and decision making, simply a 'I need that > one'. > > Lennart Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 20:19:55 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:19:55 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4394F806.4060803-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 09:31:34PM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> > > There is a big difference between management and leadership. Leadership > means offering ideas and giving the community a focal point to which > people can contribute. It means showing initiative in not waiting for > someone else to move first. Actually the reason that GTALUG was incorporated was to assure that the club was managed and that people needed to be replaced. When Jan died a very large hole was left in the management of the club not in its leadership. TLUG has never lacked leadership now or in the past. But leadership is 1% of any operation. It is the part that is easiest to fill. Management is much harder because it means you need people that can make the little decisions and do the grunt work day in and day out. > > The problem I see with GTALUG is that it brings something to the > community that already existed (ie, an NPO umbrella) but doesn't seem to > offer anything else. Structure is easy; I can think of quite a few NPO > umbrellas besides GTALUG that could have been used to front open source > community programs; they'd probably even do the grant paperwork in > return for a small piece of the project budget. What is lacking is > leadership, ideas, and the will (or energy) to carry out those ideas. Actually the structure was something that TLUG lacked. The death of Jan made that very obvious. As for other umbrella groups being available, the people who initiated the incorporation (of which you were one) felt that no such group provided the structure that GTALUG ended up offering. > > The community generally knows GTALUG's structure; what nobody seems to > know is its vision, its soul. You don't express a vision by stating an > intent to get behind whatever anyone brings to the table. Everyone knows the vision: To advocate linux and the open source communities within Toronto and the GTA by providing a forum for people to get together and discuss the topics among interested people. To this end we provide an electronic forum (this mailing list), a forum where people can get together formally or informally (The various other meetings) and liason with people in industry and government for the purposes of promoting linux and open source adoption. This vision has been stated often on this list, at the meetings, to people in industry. > > >Evan, my post was just an idea for those looking for ways to get some Gov money. > > > It did nothing of the sort. It noted someone else that received Gov > money and then invited community members (who were prepared to do all > the work) to use the GTALUG corporate structure from which to apply for > money for a similar project. It actually invites what would be a massive > failure, in that the Gov is unlikely to fund multiple projects that are > largely identical. A new computer recycling project is now very unlikely > to get Trillium money for a while. > William invited interested members to submit ideas to be further discussed before going to the government. That is how many projects are started. Someone throws the idea 'wouldn't it be neat if ...' and people agree, remark, add their two cents worth etc... the concept is called brainstorming. If such brainstorming methods result in something worth pursuing then one goes to the next level of trying to acquire funding for it. > >Whether the project is under GTALUG or CLUE, is least of my concern. > > > > > Where did CLUE come into this? > > My point is that there are a bunch of bodies besides GTALUG *or* CLUE > who could offer an umbrella structure. What extra does GTALUG have to > offer beyond a corporate registration? You didn't even offer to assist > with any such project beyond giving them your vote. It has a thousand members on a mailing list that has at least a marginal interest in linux that can act as a sounding board for ideas. It has a dedicated board and executive that can try to get money or other resources from government or industry for such projects, failing that the board has access to people in government and industry that may be willing to fund this project within their own structure. An idea need not ever stay with GTALUG to be successful. If the GTALUG board can act as a go-between between people with ideas and drive and those that need such things done, it has accomplished a valuable service to its members. > > >The project needs to be run by someone who can naviagate the Gov grant system, as well as organize incoming/outgoing of computer parts. All > >I'm saying is, that's not me. But, I'll help from my side of thing, as best as I can. > > > > > Be more specific. What would you -- what would GTALUG -- do to help? See above. > What can it offer to someone with the idea? Project management? > Fundraising? Physical space? Publicity? Volunteer recruitment/incentives? Possibly all of these. If nothing else simply introducing the someone with the idea with one or more of the contacts who may be interested is itself a service worth providing. > > In any case, why try to duplicate a project that you know is already > started and funded? A new project that is essentially similar to > something already funded is highly unlikely to get new funds of its own. I do believe that was being used as an example and not being serious entertained. > > If someone wants to help in computer recycling, perhaps the best advice > is for that person to contact the group that received the grant. Maybe > they need to hire people now that they have the funds. Make that project > successful rather than running to create a new one, potentially leaving > the community with two half-projects competing with each other for > funds, volunteers and used computers. > > >If you and CLUE have idea that you'll like to share with the rest of Linux community, then I'll work with you. > > > > > CLUE and I already have our hands full with a major the > not-yet-announced national open source project. In the meantime, There > is plenty of work to be done in other areas -- but first GTALUG needs > some vision and it needs to show some leadership if it's to play a > valuable role in the community (let alone attract significant membership). As I stated we have not had any problem with leadership. I'm looking forward with to the announcement for the national open source project. > > Run a flag up the pole and see who salutes. All that is certain is that > the status quo -- staring at an empty flagpole -- will get you nowhere. > I believe that was what William was doing when you started attacking him. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 20:44:01 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:44:01 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512071544.01777.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 6, 2005 19:13, Tim Writer wrote: > William Park writes: > > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 03:49:33AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > William Park wrote: > > > It was not I who changed the rules and said that TLUG was > > > morphing into a pay-to-join organization. > > > > There you go again. TLUG used to be just mailing list and > > monthly meetings. That will stay the same. GTALUG is just a > > formal layer created on top of that. You've been involved with > > TLUG far longer than me. > > That's true. > > > And, I fail to see why you need this explained so repeatedly. > > Because it has never been properly explained. I suspect that Evan > and I aren't the only long time members who feel that way. As I understand it, GTALUG was formed by some subset of TLUG to collect membership dues so that they could figure out what to do with the membership dues once they had them. I have read various ideas of what they want to do with the dues and list them below. * buy a projector * pay for meeting space * protect members from legal liability * "go after contracts" * "go after government grants" Paid-up membership in GTALUG apparently also gives one the right to vote for directors who in turn are some day supposed to figure out what GTALUG, this formal layer above TLUG, is and why it is necessary. Did I miss anything? -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 20:53:41 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: <4396E266.60105-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <43974BD5.6090906@utoronto.ca> I think a separate hardware list would be useful. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:14:58 2005 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051207151955.B25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> On 12/7/2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I believe that was what William was doing when you started attacking > him. I'm following this thread with interest -- I've only been a member of this list since 1998-99 so not long. I didn't see any attack on William Park, what I have seen is you being somewhat defensive, and William attacking, rather than answering questions posed. I wonder what kind of mandate the board of GTLUG really has in terms of TLUG. I have always understood that being a member of the TLUG e-mail list, gave one default membership in TLUG. If this is so, (and please correct if me if I'm wrong), I don't recall ever being asked to vote, on whether or not I wished TLUG to incorporate, much less change names to GTALUG, and I certainly never voted on membership levels being determined by paying a membership fee. Hence only paid members being able to vote for directors/board. So where did this mandate come from -- Did the majority of the members on this list vote for GTALUG and it's board ? Was there a public call for a vote or consensus ? I hope I didn't miss it if there was ... -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:37:38 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:37:38 -0400 (AST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG Message-ID: I am completely confused now about the differences and the similarities between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community this Sept, coming from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an official organization, while TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site seem to suggest that the two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that there was a difference if it wasn't for the the recent discussion on this list. Could someone with a better understanding of this issue update the wiki with a clarification? While I find the history behind TLUG/GTALUG interesting and useful, I think what is even more important for the current and prospective members is to understand the current state of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it should be, just what is actually is). Thanks! TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:56:09 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:56:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051207215609.70656.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > I am completely confused now about the differences > and the similarities > between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community > this Sept, coming > from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). I am not a lawyer and I don't even pretend to be one. However I gather there were some sort of strange legal @#$% regarding the incorporation of the name TLUG (too easily confused with the likes of the Toledo and/or Tokyo Linux User Groups). So, when officially incorporating last year the powers that be had to pick a name other other than TLUG. Now the group has been known informally as TLUG since it's founding by Laszlo Herczeg in 1994, and the TLUG name will likely be kicking around for some time to come, but for legal purposes we are GTALUG (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group). > I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an > official organization, while > TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site > seem to suggest that the > two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that > there was a > difference if it wasn't for the the recent > discussion on this list. For all practical non-legal purposes TLUG and GTALUG are one and the same. For legal purposes, TLUG doesn't exist (at least not in Canada) and the only entity the law knows anything about is GTALUG. > Could someone with a better understanding of this > issue update the wiki > with a clarification? While I find the history > behind TLUG/GTALUG > interesting and useful, I think what is even more > important for the > current and prospective members is to understand the > current state > of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it > should be, just what > is actually is). Thanks! Hope the above helps. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:04:49 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:04:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207215609.70656.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207215609.70656.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >> I am completely confused now about the differences >> and the similarities >> between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community >> this Sept, coming >> from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). > > I am not a lawyer and I don't even pretend to be one. > However I gather there were some sort of strange legal > @#$% regarding the incorporation of the name TLUG (too > easily confused with the likes of the Toledo and/or > Tokyo Linux User Groups). So, when officially > incorporating last year the powers that be had to pick > a name other other than TLUG. Now the group has been > known informally as TLUG since it's founding by Laszlo > Herczeg in 1994, and the TLUG name will likely be > kicking around for some time to come, but for legal > purposes we are GTALUG (Greater Toronto Area Linux > User Group). The name is not GTALUG, it is "GTA Linux Users Group Organization". I doubt that there would have been any difficulty incorporating "Toronto Linux Users Group" (which is not the same as TLUG). -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:09:31 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:09:31 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: <20051207215609.70656.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071409tb05a5e9i4c9335dce2da5711@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > The name is not GTALUG, it is "GTA Linux Users Group > Organization". I doubt that there would have been any difficulty > incorporating "Toronto Linux Users Group" (which is not the same > as TLUG). Sorry Chris, just want to clarify here... - "GTA Linux Users Group Organization" is what is now commonly reffered to as GTALUG? - "Toronto Linux Users Group" is not the same as TLUG because it's not written as an acronym? Thx. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:21:26 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:21:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071409tb05a5e9i4c9335dce2da5711-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207215609.70656.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <99a6c38f0512071409tb05a5e9i4c9335dce2da5711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/7/05, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> The name is not GTALUG, it is "GTA Linux Users Group >> Organization". I doubt that there would have been any difficulty >> incorporating "Toronto Linux Users Group" (which is not the same >> as TLUG). > > Sorry Chris, just want to clarify here... > > - "GTA Linux Users Group Organization" is what is now commonly > reffered to as GTALUG? Right. GTALUG is just an abbreviation. > - "Toronto Linux Users Group" is not the same as TLUG because it's not > written as an acronym? Exactly. -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:34:26 2005 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:34:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33451.66.11.182.5.1133994866.squirrel@cbits.ca> So is this list TLUG or GTALUG > I am completely confused now about the differences and the similarities > between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community this Sept, coming > from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). > > I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an official organization, while > TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site seem to suggest that the > two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that there was a > difference if it wasn't for the the recent discussion on this list. > > Could someone with a better understanding of this issue update the wiki > with a clarification? While I find the history behind TLUG/GTALUG > interesting and useful, I think what is even more important for the > current and prospective members is to understand the current state > of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it should be, just what > is actually is). Thanks! > > TAA > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Tony Abou-Assaleh > Lecturer, Computer Science Department > Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 > Office: MC J215 > Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 > Fax: +1(905)688-3255 > Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org > WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ > ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:35:21 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:35:21 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: ; from taa-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:37:38PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. 1) GTALUG as an organization was incorporated in 2003 to carry on the management of the Toronto Linux Users Group (TLUG), to foster eductaion in linux, and promote linux and open source. The reason it isn't TLUG Inc. is because Toledo Linux Users Group officially owns the TLUG Inc. name in North America. 2) TLUG is the organization that existed prior to formal incorporation and is generally used to denote the meeting that happens at UofT once a month and this mailing list. 3) NewTlug is a second meeting orginally started to cater to new users, but has since become the User group for the suburbs. It is run by Herb Ricter who is also a member of the executive. 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. 5) Although not involved with GTALUG there is also a MeetUp group http://linux.meetup.com/22/ run by Dave Carlson a person that is on this list. There are several other linux groups that have come and gone in this city in the last decade or so, including Scarborough LUG and Etobicoke LUG. Lastly there are organizations in other cities that GTALUG has contact with, Hamilton LUG, Kitchener/Waterloo LUG, Newmarket LUG, and Barrie LUG. History ======= The incorporation started in 2000. At the time I was one of the people managing the club but was not involved with the incorporation. I became involved after about a dozen meetings of the incorporation committee. The incorporation was spearheaded by Clive Apps, Jan Carlson, and George (????). Many of the people complaining about it now were part of that orginal group. The Incorporation committee argued back and forth for several years and in 2002 we put in all the paperwork for incopration. A year later we had to resubmit the same paperwork because the lawyer we were using was less than competent. The incorporation was finally completed in June 2003 and myself, Edward Chin, and Don Rambajan became its first directors. The next year two more directors were added, Drew Sullivan and Gordon Chillcott pretty much by acclamation. September of this year we had our first election where, Edward, Don and I stepped down and Chris Browne, Seneca Cunningham, and William Park were elected. Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal organization. Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very little and is kept in a bank. Bill On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:37:38PM -0400, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > I am completely confused now about the differences and the similarities > between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community this Sept, coming > from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). > > I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an official organization, while > TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site seem to suggest that the > two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that there was a > difference if it wasn't for the the recent discussion on this list. > > Could someone with a better understanding of this issue update the wiki > with a clarification? While I find the history behind TLUG/GTALUG > interesting and useful, I think what is even more important for the > current and prospective members is to understand the current state > of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it should be, just what > is actually is). Thanks! > > TAA > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Tony Abou-Assaleh > Lecturer, Computer Science Department > Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 > Office: MC J215 > Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 > Fax: +1(905)688-3255 > Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org > WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ > ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:58:05 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:58:05 -0400 (AST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: Thanks Bill. This really clears up a lot of the confusion that I had. But at least one more remains, and that is the difference between paid and non-paid members. There are obviously numerous non-paid members on this list, and some paid ones. What are the differences, if any, between the two? My guess is that paid membership is optional and may be viewed as a non-charitable donation to help the continuations of Toronto LUGs. I feel from the recent discussions that some members of this list would be interested in a wide range of services (some of which you mentioned below such as advices, contacts, etc.). What is lacking, I feel, is a clarification of what these services are, and the processes by which one may receive them. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > > 1) GTALUG as an organization was incorporated in 2003 to carry on the management of the Toronto Linux Users Group (TLUG), to foster eductaion in linux, and promote linux and open source. The reason it isn't TLUG Inc. is because Toledo Linux Users Group officially owns the TLUG Inc. name in North America. > > 2) TLUG is the organization that existed prior to formal incorporation and is generally used to denote the meeting that happens at UofT once a month and this mailing list. > > 3) NewTlug is a second meeting orginally started to cater to new users, but has since become the User group for the suburbs. It is run by Herb Ricter who is also a member of the executive. > > 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. > > 5) Although not involved with GTALUG there is also a MeetUp group http://linux.meetup.com/22/ run by Dave Carlson a person that is on this list. > > There are several other linux groups that have come and gone in this city in the last decade or so, including Scarborough LUG and Etobicoke LUG. > > Lastly there are organizations in other cities that GTALUG has contact with, Hamilton LUG, Kitchener/Waterloo LUG, Newmarket LUG, and Barrie LUG. > > History > ======= > > The incorporation started in 2000. At the time I was one of the people managing the club but was not involved with the incorporation. I became involved after about a dozen meetings of the incorporation committee. The incorporation was spearheaded by Clive Apps, Jan Carlson, and George (????). Many of the people complaining about it now were part of that orginal group. > > The Incorporation committee argued back and forth for several years and in 2002 we put in all the paperwork for incopration. A year later we had to resubmit the same paperwork because the lawyer we were using was less than competent. > > The incorporation was finally completed in June 2003 and myself, Edward Chin, and Don Rambajan became its first directors. The next year two more directors were added, Drew Sullivan and Gordon Chillcott pretty much by acclamation. > > September of this year we had our first election where, Edward, Don and I stepped down and Chris Browne, Seneca Cunningham, and William Park were elected. > > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. > > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal organization. > > Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very little and is kept in a bank. > > Bill > > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:37:38PM -0400, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > I am completely confused now about the differences and the similarities > > between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community this Sept, coming > > from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). > > > > I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an official organization, while > > TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site seem to suggest that the > > two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that there was a > > difference if it wasn't for the the recent discussion on this list. > > > > Could someone with a better understanding of this issue update the wiki > > with a clarification? While I find the history behind TLUG/GTALUG > > interesting and useful, I think what is even more important for the > > current and prospective members is to understand the current state > > of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it should be, just what > > is actually is). Thanks! > > > > TAA > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Tony Abou-Assaleh > > Lecturer, Computer Science Department > > Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 > > Office: MC J215 > > Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 > > Fax: +1(905)688-3255 > > Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org > > WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ > > ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:58:32 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:58:32 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <439750D2.2000601-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org>; from kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:14:58PM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> > > I wonder what kind of mandate the board of GTLUG really has in terms of > TLUG. I have always understood that being a member of the TLUG e-mail > list, gave one default membership in TLUG. If this is so, (and please > correct if me if I'm wrong), I don't recall ever being asked to vote, on > whether or not I wished TLUG to incorporate, much less change names to > GTALUG, and I certainly never voted on membership levels being > determined by paying a membership fee. Hence only paid members being > able to vote for directors/board. Prior to GTALUG's formation TLUG was a dictatorship. The orginal dictator was the clubs creator Lazlo, and when he left Drew took over the role. In fact until September of this year no one had ever voted for anything in this club. Membership on this email list gave you no legal or moral rights to speak for or vote for anything. No one asked you because they didn't have to. No one asked me for that matter and at the time the incorporation started, I was organizing the rooms and and speakers for the club. > > So where did this mandate come from -- Did the majority of the members > on this list vote for GTALUG and it's board ? Was there a public call > for a vote or consensus ? The mandate came from the same place Drew had his mandate and I had mine. They started doing the work. Nothing about the incorporation of TLUG was secret during that period of time and you could have joined that group and put your two cents in. It seems the best way to keep a secret on this mailing list is to post the details. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 23:01:23 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:01:23 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439769C3.6090108@pppoe.ca> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. > > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal organization. Thanks, Bill. Is the composition of the executive on the wiki? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 22:58:31 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:58:31 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very little and is kept in a bank. As a paid member who's attended a few executive meetings, I can say that I'm satisfied with the boards handling of membership $$ since the LinuxWorld 2005 membership drive, having seen first-hand banking information at these meetings. Speaking of which, (and sincerest apologies in advance) Bill, can we clarify exactly what the "executive" is? Following LW2005, the executive meeting was "open" in the sense that it was publicly advertised as being open to all, and about 20 of us or so showed up... It was stated at that meeting that these people would form "the executive," but in subsequent meetings many did not show up. I'm guilty of that as well in the last few months. What purpose does the "executive" serve, as it differs from the "board?" Thanks. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 23:16:59 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:16:59 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: ; from taa-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 06:58:05PM -0400 References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051207181659.F25423@diamond.ss.org> Paid membership gets you the following: 1) That warm fazzy feeling knowing you are helping offset cost of running this group. 2) voting previliges at the Annual general meeting where board members are voted in. 3) Ability to be on the board and provide input to what GTALUG should be doing. Paid membership is totally voluntary. I doubt 10% of this list is a paid member. There are certain things that is within the mandate of GTALUG to run free of charge. This list and the monthly meetings fall into that group. So far all the other things that we have done have not required large amounts of money and the executive has normally paid for things as out of pocket expenses. The real problem with clarifying the services is we the excutive are unsure of what else to offer. We recently arranged a deal with an ISP for highspeed internet for members and one or two people took the ISP up on the offer. We are looking at trying to find package deals for members but there doesn't seem to be any interest in such things among this group. Also of the 1000 or so people on the list less than 10% find there way to the real life meetings. To most people this is an email list they are on with no intention of becoming any more involved in the community. That is okay with everyone. For the few that want to get involved more please do. It isn't a requirement to be a member to volunteer to help out. Ultimately this club are the people that are in it. Literally for the last seven years it was Drew's, Jan's, Herb's and my vision. That vision had to be small because there was no resources to make it big. Bill On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 06:58:05PM -0400, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > Thanks Bill. This really clears up a lot of the confusion that I had. But > at least one more remains, and that is the difference between paid and > non-paid members. There are obviously numerous non-paid members on this > list, and some paid ones. What are the differences, if any, between the > two? My guess is that paid membership is optional and may be viewed as a > non-charitable donation to help the continuations of Toronto LUGs. > > I feel from the recent discussions that some members of this list would be > interested in a wide range of services (some of which you mentioned below > such as advices, contacts, etc.). What is lacking, I feel, is a > clarification of what these services are, and the processes by which one > may receive them. > > Cheers, > > TAA > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Tony Abou-Assaleh > Lecturer, Computer Science Department > Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 > Office: MC J215 > Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 > Fax: +1(905)688-3255 > Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org > WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ > ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > > > > 1) GTALUG as an organization was incorporated in 2003 to carry on the management of the Toronto Linux Users Group (TLUG), to foster eductaion in linux, and promote linux and open source. The reason it isn't TLUG Inc. is because Toledo Linux Users Group officially owns the TLUG Inc. name in North America. > > > > 2) TLUG is the organization that existed prior to formal incorporation and is generally used to denote the meeting that happens at UofT once a month and this mailing list. > > > > 3) NewTlug is a second meeting orginally started to cater to new users, but has since become the User group for the suburbs. It is run by Herb Ricter who is also a member of the executive. > > > > 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. > > > > 5) Although not involved with GTALUG there is also a MeetUp group http://linux.meetup.com/22/ run by Dave Carlson a person that is on this list. > > > > There are several other linux groups that have come and gone in this city in the last decade or so, including Scarborough LUG and Etobicoke LUG. > > > > Lastly there are organizations in other cities that GTALUG has contact with, Hamilton LUG, Kitchener/Waterloo LUG, Newmarket LUG, and Barrie LUG. > > > > History > > ======= > > > > The incorporation started in 2000. At the time I was one of the people managing the club but was not involved with the incorporation. I became involved after about a dozen meetings of the incorporation committee. The incorporation was spearheaded by Clive Apps, Jan Carlson, and George (????). Many of the people complaining about it now were part of that orginal group. > > > > The Incorporation committee argued back and forth for several years and in 2002 we put in all the paperwork for incopration. A year later we had to resubmit the same paperwork because the lawyer we were using was less than competent. > > > > The incorporation was finally completed in June 2003 and myself, Edward Chin, and Don Rambajan became its first directors. The next year two more directors were added, Drew Sullivan and Gordon Chillcott pretty much by acclamation. > > > > September of this year we had our first election where, Edward, Don and I stepped down and Chris Browne, Seneca Cunningham, and William Park were elected. > > > > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. > > > > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal organization. > > > > Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very little and is kept in a bank. > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:37:38PM -0400, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > > I am completely confused now about the differences and the similarities > > > between TLUG and GTALUG. I only joined the community this Sept, coming > > > from nSLUG (Nova Scotia). > > > > > > I somewhat see now that GTALUG is more of an official organization, while > > > TLUG is plain vanilla LUG. However, the web site seem to suggest that the > > > two are one and the same. I wouldn't have known that there was a > > > difference if it wasn't for the the recent discussion on this list. > > > > > > Could someone with a better understanding of this issue update the wiki > > > with a clarification? While I find the history behind TLUG/GTALUG > > > interesting and useful, I think what is even more important for the > > > current and prospective members is to understand the current state > > > of these bodies (regardless of whether it is what it should be, just what > > > is actually is). Thanks! > > > > > > TAA > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Tony Abou-Assaleh > > > Lecturer, Computer Science Department > > > Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 > > > Office: MC J215 > > > Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 > > > Fax: +1(905)688-3255 > > > Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org > > > WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ > > > ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 23:25:59 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:25:59 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>; from psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:58:31PM -0500 References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> > > Speaking of which, (and sincerest apologies in advance) Bill, can we > clarify exactly what the "executive" is? Following LW2005, the > executive meeting was "open" in the sense that it was publicly > advertised as being open to all, and about 20 of us or so showed up... > It was stated at that meeting that these people would form "the > executive," but in subsequent meetings many did not show up. I'm > guilty of that as well in the last few months. > > What purpose does the "executive" serve, as it differs from the > "board?" Thanks. > Well we seem to have split the group formally into three: The Board - those elected officials that run the club; the executive, these are appointed by the board. They are Drew - president, Seneca - secretary, Chris - treasurer. I believe Herb has a title I can't remember at the moment; and finally leaders - those are all those people that do stuff for the club. I'm one of those at the moment, Joe, Leah, Colin are the others without a title that show up regularly. Colin at the moment is handling the Real World Linux stuff. There are a few people that I believe would be called leaders but never show up to the meetings. I'm not completely certain if the meeting is now open or closed because I'm no longer on the board. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 23:30:49 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:30:49 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <439769C3.6090108-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org>; from meng-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 06:01:23PM -0500 References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <439769C3.6090108@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051207183049.I25423@diamond.ss.org> As far as I know this is the board of directors that are listed on the wiki. Bill On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 06:01:23PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > > > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. > > > > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal organization. > > Thanks, Bill. > Is the composition of the executive on the wiki? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 00:05:31 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:05:31 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207182559.G25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > What purpose does the "executive" serve, as it differs from the > > "board?" Thanks. > > > Well we seem to have split the group formally into three: The Board - those elected officials that run the club; the executive, these are appointed by the board. They are Drew - president, Seneca - secretary, Chris - treasurer. I believe Herb has a title I can't remember at the moment; and finally leaders - those are all those people that do stuff for the club. I'm one of those at the moment, Joe, Leah, Colin are the others without a title that show up regularly. Colin at the moment is handling the Real World Linux stuff. There are a few people that I believe would be called leaders but never show up to the meetings. > > I'm not completely certain if the meeting is now open or closed because I'm no longer on the board. Thanks Bill. If the board could clarify this last bit for me then I'll be content: #1 - If the exec meetings are still open enough for me to return after several months hiatus, I would really like to do so... The single most valuable thing I can see for me as a member to provide to GTALUG, would be in interfacing with the CSIA (see below) - but I would like it to be "officially" recognized. #2 - I posted an item recently under the subject line "CSIA -- an invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd)" but have heard nothing as yet. If the board/executive is interested, I'm prepared to present my arguments at the next executive meeting. I had wanted to run for the board in September, but I couldn't commit the time and effort such a position deserves. On top of that, I didn't really expect many votes since, by far, the bulk of the 1000+ members on this list really don't know much about me, so why would they want to vote for me? I'd be (really) happy at this point with a non-board, but productive position, within the incorporated "Greater Toronto Area Linux Users Group Organization". -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 00:51:38 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:51:38 -0500 Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <20051207151955.B25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >Actually the structure was something that TLUG lacked. The death of Jan made that very obvious. As for other umbrella groups being available, the people who initiated the incorporation (of which you were one) felt that no such group provided the structure that GTALUG ended up offering. > > First off, I was _not_ one of the people who started the incorporation. I was involved in a few exploratory meetings, came to the conclusion that the activity was pointless (and said so publicly), and dropped out long before any real effort was undertaken. Anyone involved is invited to check their records. (Honestly, given everything I've said recently, do I sound like someone who helped to start GTALUG?) As for filling the vacuum left by Jan, that's a people issue not an infrastructure issue. Arguably the sudden (but far less tragic) departure of Laszlo many years previous to Jan's death was an even greater loss -- yet we coped. TLUG can survive the loss of anyone here and keep going just fine. The "structure" of TLUG as we've known it could survive the dissolution of GTALUG tomorrow and hardly anyone would notice. People who volunteered to help GTALUG could still do their good work within an unincorporated LUG without diminishing the value of their work. All the signs have been -- and not a single argument here has challenged the notion -- that GTALUG was created to fix something that was never broken. Having a corporation doesn't magically make the website easier to manage or spam easier to extract from mailing lists. Nor does it simplify volunteer recruitment. In fact, it complicates things because of the costs and extra paperwork involved. >Everyone knows the vision: To advocate linux and the open source communities within Toronto and the GTA by providing a forum for people to get together and discuss the topics among interested people. > Such a limited goal (one can hardly call it vision) is easily handled without incorporation. The forums are provided by websites, meetings and mailing lists, and none of that requires incorporation. Indeed, the vast majority of LUGs worldwide -- including those I have visited in cities such as Paris, Sydney, S?o Paulo and Tokyo -- are not incorporated, yet they manage to have high quality meetings and mailings -- not to mention social events -- just the same. Having a national body that is incorporated (Linux Verband, Japan Linux Association, AFUL, Linux Australia) which unincorporated local groups can use for infrastructure as necessary is a globally proven, efficient and successful model. Even Linux International can be (and has been) used in this context. And it also worked in Canada, for many years before GTALUG existed. The only time local LUG incorporation is normally considered is when there is a desire to do something substantial beyond meetings and mailings. Usually the nature of that desire is considered before incorporating (not after), and it's rarely done without getting a broad consensus of the pre-incorporation community. This is something that the founders of GTALUG most certainly never did. And as for the name... it's completely incorrect that the incorporators could not use the name TLUG for legal reasons. I have a very detailed explanation of why, but I suspect that to many this thread has been tiresome. --- Those of us who hoped for rational debate and understanding about a greater purpose for incorporation, without personal attack, have been sadly disappointed. The founders and directors of GTALUG, who are generally very good and well-meaning people, just can't seem to grasp what's being asked for, and continuance of this thread is likely to generate far more heat than light in that regard. I consider this a missed opportunity for GTALUG to really demonstrate its value to the broader community, but that's how it goes... To everyone else, I apologize. I genuinely hoped to help spark an enlightened discussion about GTALUG's future, one that could help produce some ideas or energize the community behind its LUG. Instead the spark seems to have lit a fuse or two. So long as the personal stuff subsides, I'll stop pressing the issue. Talk is cheap, there's too much real work to be done in the support of Linux and the advancement of open source use in Toronto. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:06:26 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:06:26 -0500 Subject: CSIA In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43978712.5090908@telly.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: >#2 - I posted an item recently under the subject line "CSIA -- an >invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd)" but have heard >nothing as yet. If the board/executive is interested, I'm prepared to >present my arguments at the next executive meeting. > > This issue is interesting but it's not without its own controversy. When the election was called, someone on a local IRC (I forget whether it was the CLUE or GTALUG channel) cheered the death of C-60. Yet to read the CSIA communiqu?, it seems as if the participants are urging the passage of the existing bill by whoever forms the next government. Apparently there's a fear that the delay in passage might encourage the entertainment industry to get more more DMCA-like wording in the Canadian law. Personally I think the community at large should be aware of the proposed changes to the copyright law, and make their own opinion whether it should be supported or needs to be weakened. The commentary offered on the CSIA announcement that you posted by Russell McOrmond is worth reading as well. There is already a debate going on within CLUE, which will probably support CSIA. Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, Scott. While organizational endorsements are nice, the best thing this announcement can do is to get people knowledgeable about what's going on in a field that will affect them. >I'd be (really) happy at this point with a non-board, but productive position, within the incorporated "Greater Toronto Area Linux Users Group Organization". > > I can't speak for the GTALUG exec (big surprise ;-) ) but I suspect that the general attitude toward volunteers is "there's always room for one more". :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:18:44 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:18:44 -0500 Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <4397839A.4040807-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > All the signs have been -- and not a single argument here has challenged > the notion -- that GTALUG was created to fix something that was never > broken. Having a corporation doesn't magically make the website easier > to manage or spam easier to extract from mailing lists. Nor does it > simplify volunteer recruitment. In fact, it complicates things because > of the costs and extra paperwork involved. May very well be true, but the milk's already on the floor. My belief is that we should clean up any residual mess, and make the best of what we have at this time. > >Everyone knows the vision: To advocate linux and the open source communities within Toronto and the GTA by providing a forum for people to get together and discuss the topics among interested people. > > > > Such a limited goal (one can hardly call it vision) is easily handled > without incorporation. The forums are provided by websites, meetings and > mailing lists, and none of that requires incorporation. Indeed, the vast > majority of LUGs worldwide -- including those I have visited in cities > such as Paris, Sydney, S?o Paulo and Tokyo -- are not incorporated, yet > they manage to have high quality meetings and mailings -- not to mention > social events -- just the same. Having a national body that is > incorporated (Linux Verband, Japan Linux Association, AFUL, Linux > Australia) which unincorporated local groups can use for infrastructure > as necessary is a globally proven, efficient and successful model. Even > Linux International can be (and has been) used in this context. And it > also worked in Canada, for many years before GTALUG existed. This has probably be answered before, but what things, in terms of infrastucture, do these national bodies provide? > The only time local LUG incorporation is normally considered is when > there is a desire to do something substantial beyond meetings and > mailings. Usually the nature of that desire is considered before > incorporating (not after), and it's rarely done without getting a broad > consensus of the pre-incorporation community. This is something that the > founders of GTALUG most certainly never did. Again, spilled milk. If there was no _specific desire_ to something something more substantial prior to incorporation, then we can, and should, work towards identifying one (or more) that fits. Something I'm still trying to get used to in the business world is how long it takes for anything to get done. > And as for the name... it's completely incorrect that the incorporators > could not use the name TLUG for legal reasons. I have a very detailed > explanation of why, but I suspect that to many this thread has been > tiresome. Tiresome, yes. But also valuable. I don't think the story's finished - and may not be for several months yet. I think the only way this conversation (over a few threads) will lose value is if we _stop_ discussing it. > --- > > Those of us who hoped for rational debate and understanding about a > greater purpose for incorporation, without personal attack, have been > sadly disappointed. The founders and directors of GTALUG, who are > generally very good and well-meaning people, just can't seem to grasp > what's being asked for, and continuance of this thread is likely to > generate far more heat than light in that regard. I consider this a > missed opportunity for GTALUG to really demonstrate its value to the > broader community, but that's how it goes... See previous point above. > To everyone else, I apologize. I genuinely hoped to help spark an > enlightened discussion about GTALUG's future, one that could help > produce some ideas or energize the community behind its LUG. Instead the > spark seems to have lit a fuse or two. So long as the personal stuff > subsides, I'll stop pressing the issue. > > Talk is cheap, there's too much real work to be done in the support of > Linux and the advancement of open source use in Toronto. I agree wholeheartedly. But the question remains... what's the "real work?" For myself (as I've pointed out before) I'm just stabbing away in the dark - trying to guess my way through to furthering the value of the organization to/in the community. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:25:07 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:25:07 -0500 Subject: CSIA In-Reply-To: <43978712.5090908-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f@mail.gmail.com> <43978712.5090908@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071725g47e74233y7f705e50cbea6bd0@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > >#2 - I posted an item recently under the subject line "CSIA -- an > >invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd)" but have heard > >nothing as yet. If the board/executive is interested, I'm prepared to > >present my arguments at the next executive meeting. > > > > > This issue is interesting but it's not without its own controversy. > > When the election was called, someone on a local IRC (I forget whether > it was the CLUE or GTALUG channel) cheered the death of C-60. Yet to > read the CSIA communiqu?, it seems as if the participants are urging the > passage of the existing bill by whoever forms the next government. > Apparently there's a fear that the delay in passage might encourage the > entertainment industry to get more more DMCA-like wording in the > Canadian law. There was some confusion around that particular post, and after having spent a year and a half trying to make sense of the information coming from Digital Copyright Canada, I think I understand Russell's clarification. This confusion is a good part of why I think it's important to get involved with the CSIA - to find a "common understanding" of what these ammendments mean to the average person. C-60, before the non-confidence motion, was quite frankly scary. That's not to say that it did not have it's good points... It just wasn't balanced nearly enough. > There is already a debate going on within CLUE, which will probably > support CSIA. I hope things work out in this regard. (BTW, I love the new look at linux.ca!) Thanks for your support and comments Evan. Truly, they are appreciated. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:27:57 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:27:57 -0500 Subject: MySQL database backup from the client In-Reply-To: <4395DD02.2070006-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <4395D37B.4060506@alteeve.com> <4395DD02.2070006@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <43978C1D.9090609@alteeve.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> I have been all over the MySQL (4.1) docs trying to find a way to >> dump a database from within MySQL (through perl). I know I can make a >> sysem call to 'mysqldump' but then I would have to pass the password >> essentially over the commnd line which expses it (even if for just a >> moment). > > > You don't have to put your password on the command line. You can put > passwords into your config file. Create a ~/.my.cnf file for whichever > user is running the dump and in there put something like: > > [mysqldump] > password=xyz That works perfectly. I can have the program touch the file, chmod it to '0600', insert the password into the file, do the dump and then unlink the file. I think that should be secure (and a LOT easier). Thanks!! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:29:39 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:29:39 -0500 Subject: MySQL database backup from the client In-Reply-To: <34690.66.11.182.5.1133881725.squirrel-ZPnsNkHkFjk@public.gmane.org> References: <4395D37B.4060506@alteeve.com> <34690.66.11.182.5.1133881725.squirrel@cbits.ca> Message-ID: <43978C83.6090108@alteeve.com> The reason is that the dump needs to be performed by an install script (if a database exists I want to dump it before loading the new one, "just in case"). So I need some way to automate things. Thanks for the recommendation though! Madison jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org wrote: > Why not use phpmyadmin http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/index.php > > >>Hi, >> >> I have been all over the MySQL (4.1) docs trying to find a way to >>dump a database from within MySQL (through perl). I know I can make a >>sysem call to 'mysqldump' but then I would have to pass the password >>essentially over the commnd line which expses it (even if for just a >>moment). >> >> I know you can use 'SHOW CREATE TABLE xyz' to get the table schema >>then 'BACKUP TABLE...' or 'SELECT INTO ... OUTFILE' to get the data but >>this would e, to say the least, combersome. Is there something like >>'BACKUP DATABASE foo OUTFILE ...'? >> >> There is no concern in my case about the database being accessed >>while I do the dump. >> >>Thanks! >> >>Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:33:49 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:33:49 -0500 Subject: CSIA In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071725g47e74233y7f705e50cbea6bd0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f@mail.gmail.com> <43978712.5090908@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071725g47e74233y7f705e50cbea6bd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512071733xfee833et4d245990ecd207a4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/7/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Scott Elcomb wrote: > > > > >#2 - I posted an item recently under the subject line "CSIA -- an > > >invitation from CIPPIC, EFF, and Bob Young (fwd)" but have heard > > >nothing as yet. If the board/executive is interested, I'm prepared to > > >present my arguments at the next executive meeting. > > > > > > > > This issue is interesting but it's not without its own controversy. > > > > When the election was called, someone on a local IRC (I forget whether > > it was the CLUE or GTALUG channel) cheered the death of C-60. Yet to > > read the CSIA communiqu?, it seems as if the participants are urging the > > passage of the existing bill by whoever forms the next government. > > Apparently there's a fear that the delay in passage might encourage the > > entertainment industry to get more more DMCA-like wording in the > > Canadian law. > > There was some confusion around that particular post, and after having > spent a year and a half trying to make sense of the information coming > from Digital Copyright Canada, I think I understand Russell's > clarification. > > This confusion is a good part of why I think it's important to get > involved with the CSIA - to find a "common understanding" of what > these ammendments mean to the average person. Woops - the problem with overlapping things is that sometimes my responses contain some overlap as well. In the case of the "average person," there really is no one-stop spot. I think DCC is a good spot, but it's oriented towards folks who are somewhat familiar with copyright law already. I suspect the CSIA will be similar, but directed more towards software firms and folks. LUG's on the other hand... Well, that's where I'd like to see things getting tied together - for the benefit of the "average person." -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:46:08 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:46:08 -0500 Subject: OT: Sympatico mail In-Reply-To: <4396F9DC.4070102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396F9DC.4070102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43979060.3010704@sympatico.ca> John McGregor wrote: > I want to ask the Sympatico users here if they have been experiencing > any problems with mail delivery lately. I have a client for whom I'm > going to do a system upgrade and he mentioned to me that he has been > receiving his mail in batches -- about 3 days worth and then nothing > or a long period of time followed by another big batch of messages. > This client uses Windows, so its hard to tell if its the OS being > flaky or if its Sympatico playing silly buggers again. I'd like to be > able to eliminate one of the possibilities.(if the truth were known, > I'd like to eliminate both possibilities, but that's not my decision). > > John I haven't experienced anyting like what you described. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 01:51:23 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:51:23 -0500 Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: >>Having a national body that is >>incorporated (Linux Verband, Japan Linux Association, AFUL, Linux >>Australia) which unincorporated local groups can use for infrastructure >>as necessary is a globally proven, efficient and successful model. Even >>Linux International can be (and has been) used in this context. And it >>also worked in Canada, for many years before GTALUG existed. >> >> > >This has probably be answered before, but what things, in terms of >infrastucture, do these national bodies provide? > > The most obvious one is to provide an "entity" for the purpose of signing any kind of contract, so individual LUG members can't be held liable for signing on behalf of the group. The most popular use of this has been in the contracting of floor space for trade shows. Even when it's free, someone's gotta sign something. CLUE has a long history of providing a legal entity capable of obtaining booth space on behalf of unincorporated groups. This capability was also used to sign a lease at what was once the CLUE Linux Centre on Eastern Avenue a few years back. Many of the volunteers were TLUG people but CLUE did the paperwork. Also, if there are short-term projects that require the handling of money, sometime that is also best handled by an incorporated body. After all, most non-incorporated groups don't have dedicated bank accounts, while most responsible non-profit corps should go through periodic audits (more expense). The possibilities are endless. Anytime a local group wants to do a project that requires signing something -- even if it's for booking meeting space -- it's best to get the incorporated body in there to keep any individual for taking legal/financial responsibility for the whole group. That way there's only one group in each country that *needs* to be incorporated, the unincorporated groups use it as necessary since incorporation is both an up-front and an ongoing expense (both in money and time). And most LUG volunteers would rather be doing geek and advocacy stuff than admin. >Tiresome, yes. But also valuable. I don't think the story's finished >- and may not be for several months yet. I think the only way this >conversation (over a few threads) will lose value is if we _stop_ >discussing it. > > I just don't want to keep being the contrary one ;-). - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 02:09:37 2005 From: anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (marius) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:09:37 -0500 Subject: New Gtalug mailing list has been created. In-Reply-To: <43974BD5.6090906-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E266.60105@yahoo.ca> <43974BD5.6090906@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <22318ee50512071809p5fce5d31xaab097132ea50b79@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I think a separate hardware list would be useful. > -- I think it's a great idea. //mts -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 02:18:53 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:18:53 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <1133964466.3067.3.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> <1133964466.3067.3.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <200512072118.53737.mervc@eol.ca> On Wednesday 07 December 2005 09:07, Ken Burtch wrote: > SuSE 10 indeed has a number of packages missing from the DVDs. Some of > these are for licensing reasons (OpenSuSE is GPL), others...well, for > unknown reasons. If you follow the instructions at the Jem Report > (http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/) you should be > able to find most/all the missing packages. > > For a review of OpenSUSE and a discussion on the missing packages, read > my blog at http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_november_2005.html. > Thanks for the two links, interesting reading especially your problems. I have added the repositories and installed the programs listed in the Jem report. All that with no problem. What I am having a problem with is adding the 'supplementary' repository. ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/ , similar at mirrors. If you want the new KDE stuff add KDE/update_for_10.0/ That was the format that worked for the basic things, including a Packman mirror. I tried that, Yast wouldn't accept it. I found this site, where Novell give 9.2 instructions in a detailed 'how-to' . http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11504.html For supplementary it seems you need to add ' yast-source ' as well. That directory seems to be there, but Yast still won't accept the URL from me. If you have time could you give this a try? When you are successful, the KDE 3.5 update is available. There seems to be a lot of stuff in the 'Gnome' directory if that is your preference. Merv -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 02:40:39 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 07 Dec 2005 21:40:39 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > > 1) GTALUG as an organization was incorporated in 2003 So far so good. But this: > to carry on the management of the Toronto Linux Users Group (TLUG), is in dispute because it's not clear that GTALUG has been given that mandate by the membership of the informal organization known as TLUG. [snip] > 2) TLUG is the organization that existed prior to formal incorporation and is > generally used to denote the meeting that happens at UofT once a month and > this mailing list. Perhaps it's worth noting that TLUG was always an informal organization. AFAIK, there were never any rules regarding its membership and governance. [snip] > History ======= > > The incorporation started in 2000. At the time I was one of the people > managing the club but was not involved with the incorporation. I think it would be better to say you were an active volunteer as the term "managing" implies you had both the responsibility and authority to act on behalf of the group, neither of which is really true. I don't mean to diminish or belittle your efforts but I do think it's important to try and clarify roles. FWIW, I was also an active volunteer in 2000 but I never considered myself to be managing anything other than my own time. > I became involved after about a dozen meetings of the incorporation > committee. "Incorporation committe", that sounds formal. There was a loose group of volunteers who thought incorporation might be beneficial. > The incorporation was spearheaded by Clive Apps, Jan Carlson, and George > (????). George Free, IIRC. > Many of the people complaining about it now were part of that orginal > group. I participated in that group for a short while. > The Incorporation committee argued back and forth for several years and in > 2002 we put in all the paperwork for incopration. A year later we had to > resubmit the same paperwork because the lawyer we were using was less than > competent. > > The incorporation was finally completed in June 2003 and myself, Edward Chin, > and Don Rambajan became its first directors. The next year two more directors > were added, Drew Sullivan and Gordon Chillcott pretty much by acclamation. So, a bunch of paper work was done to incorporate an entity known as GTALUG. Unfortunately though, a plan was not presented to the full TLUG membership (i.e. this mailing list) and there was no attempt to build a wide concensus. Ideally, this should have been done before the incoporation but it could have been done afterwards and it can still be done. Until this week, I've stayed out of the politics but I've been paying attention to the list. From time to time, people have been asking questions like: o What is GTALUG? o How is the membership defined, i.e. who are the members? o How is GTALUG governed? o What rights and obligations do members have? o What do we get for $20? o What are the by-laws of GTALUG? Pretty basic, reasonable stuff. At best the response has been defensive. > September of this year we had our first election where, Edward, Don and I > stepped down and Chris Browne, Seneca Cunningham, and William Park were > elected. Hmmm. I can't find an announcement in the mailing list archives. > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included > make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the > NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, > although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a > group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other > LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to > foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. How is the executive defined? Do people just show up to an executive meeting and say, "Here I am, I'm an executive?" That's pretty much how it worked in the past but that's not appropriate if you plan to represent the group as you said above. > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the > incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal > organization. > > Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new > one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is > asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very > little and is kept in a bank. I haven't paid my $20. Am I (still) a member? Should I be dropped from this list, barred from meetings, etc.? -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 03:34:38 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:34:38 -0400 (AST) Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: Though I am new to TLUG, and not a member of GTALUG, I think I get the situation here. I've gone through similar politics when trying to formalize an informal process. The way I see it: * GTALUG represents only its paid members. Non-paid members of TLUG, NewTLUG, and WestLUG have no official represntation at all. * There are some activities that require a legal entitity behind them in order to be taken seriously, or even considered at all. These activities may include sponsorship of events, organizing conferences, going after grants, doing consulting jobs, etc. Therefore, I think the incorporation was a good idea. If none of the above activities happened, that's a different story. As I see it, it is much easier to to carry out such activities now that the legal paper work is over with then what it would've been if incorporation was to come second. * Membership in GTALUG is open to all. Anyone who cares about what GTALUG does is welcome to join, carry out their activity, and help shape the general direction of GTALUG. * There is nothing that requires you to join GTALUG to do whatever it is that you want to do without GTALUG (e.g., organize meetings, installfests, community projects, and so on). And if you wish to collaborate with people from GTALUG, all I've seen so far is welcome and openness. * If it makes you feel better, one can think of TLUG, NewTLUG, and WestTLUG as projects that GTALUG helps run, rather than own. It really makes no practical difference. * The fact that GTALUG offers few services not a fault of a single person. If you wish to develop a service that requires the infrastructure of GTALUG, it's already there for you. If it doesn't, then it's up to you how you do it. ... just my personal interpretation of the situation. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 03:49:49 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:49:49 -0500 Subject: CNN.com Free Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1134013789.4141.4.camel@spot1.localhost.com> I complained to CNN that I couldn't view their videos at CNN.com using Linux but all I received was the standard auto reply below. Maybe if enough people send complaints we can get their attention. I guess they are more interested in using 'misery' to sell soap than any social responsibility. RickT http://www./TorontoNUI.ca On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 14:47 -0500, CNN.com wrote: > Thank you for the e-mail you sent CNN.com about our Free Video > service! This auto reply is your notification that we have received > it. > > Your inquiry will be reviewed in the order it was received. In the > interim, please visit our ?Frequently Asked Questions? page at > http://www.cnn.com/help/video for possible resolution to your issue. > Technical questions submitted through this area will receive a > response. Other feedback will be included in the response report that > is prepared and made available each day to our producers and senior > management. > > Again, thank you for contacting us, and please visit the attached > links for more information on our anchors, programs and schedules: > > > > Would you like additional information on our anchors? > > Please visit our anchor bio section at > http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/ > > > > Would you like to review transcripts of previous > shows? > > Please visit our transcript at > http://www.cnn.com/transcripts > > > > Do you need information on the show schedules? > > Please visit us at http://www.cnn.com/programs > > > > Are you looking to purchase a videotape of one of the > shows? > > You may order a video and/or transcript of a program > or segment from any of the following sources: > > Multivision can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN > for the past year, and for CNNI, CNNfn or Headline > News for the past two months. Call or write at > (800-560-0111) (925-472-8880), > http://www.mvisionmedia.com > > Video Monitoring Service can provide tapes or > transcripts of CNN, CNNl, CNNfn, or Headline News for > the previous 2 months. Call or write them at > (877-698-8007) (212-736-2010), http://www.vidmon.com > > > > > FDCH can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN programs > (domestic only) from October 1996 to present. Call or > write them at (800-266-6397) (301-883-2482), > cnntranscript-9RM52Qq6PdPhvxM+mQhndA at public.gmane.org Or visit their Web site at > www.fdch.com and complete an order form. Their > mailing address is 1100 Mercantile Lane, Landover, > Maryland 20785. > > > Please continue to send us your feedback on our free video service. > Your input helps us consider changes that will most appeal to you, our > valued user. > > Thanks again for your interest and keep your browser pointed to > http://www.cnn.com/. > > Sincerely, > > CNN Public Information > > ?CNN, The Most Trusted Name In News? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:04:24 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:04:24 -0500 Subject: CNN.com Free Video In-Reply-To: <1134013789.4141.4.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134013789.4141.4.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <200512072304.24934.marc@lijour.net> Same at tva.ca Marc On Wednesday 07 December 2005 22:49, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I complained to CNN that I couldn't view their videos at CNN.com using > Linux but all I received was the standard auto reply below. Maybe if > enough people send complaints we can get their attention. I guess they > are more interested in using 'misery' to sell soap than any social > responsibility. > RickT > http://www./TorontoNUI.ca > > On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 14:47 -0500, CNN.com wrote: > > Thank you for the e-mail you sent CNN.com about our Free Video > > service! This auto reply is your notification that we have received > > it. > > > > Your inquiry will be reviewed in the order it was received. In the > > interim, please visit our ?Frequently Asked Questions? page at > > http://www.cnn.com/help/video for possible resolution to your issue. > > Technical questions submitted through this area will receive a > > response. Other feedback will be included in the response report that > > is prepared and made available each day to our producers and senior > > management. > > > > Again, thank you for contacting us, and please visit the attached > > links for more information on our anchors, programs and schedules: > > > > > > > > Would you like additional information on our anchors? > > > > Please visit our anchor bio section at > > http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/ > > > > > > > > Would you like to review transcripts of previous > > shows? > > > > Please visit our transcript at > > http://www.cnn.com/transcripts > > > > > > > > Do you need information on the show schedules? > > > > Please visit us at http://www.cnn.com/programs > > > > > > > > Are you looking to purchase a videotape of one of the > > shows? > > > > You may order a video and/or transcript of a program > > or segment from any of the following sources: > > > > Multivision can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN > > for the past year, and for CNNI, CNNfn or Headline > > News for the past two months. Call or write at > > (800-560-0111) (925-472-8880), > > http://www.mvisionmedia.com > > > > Video Monitoring Service can provide tapes or > > transcripts of CNN, CNNl, CNNfn, or Headline News for > > the previous 2 months. Call or write them at > > (877-698-8007) (212-736-2010), http://www.vidmon.com > > > > > > > > > > FDCH can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN programs > > (domestic only) from October 1996 to present. Call or > > write them at (800-266-6397) (301-883-2482), > > cnntranscript-9RM52Qq6PdPhvxM+mQhndA at public.gmane.org Or visit their Web site at > > www.fdch.com and complete an order form. Their > > mailing address is 1100 Mercantile Lane, Landover, > > Maryland 20785. > > > > > > Please continue to send us your feedback on our free video service. > > Your input helps us consider changes that will most appeal to you, our > > valued user. > > > > Thanks again for your interest and keep your browser pointed to > > http://www.cnn.com/. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > CNN Public Information > > > > ?CNN, The Most Trusted Name In News? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:03:27 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:03:27 -0400 (AST) Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <4397839A.4040807-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> Message-ID: Evan, I agree that the discussion seemed to lead no where for a while. But at least for me, I find the last few posts very valuable, informative, and inspiring. I am chairing the organization of a FOSS conference in Halifax this coming June. Last year it was more of a regional event (Atlantic Canada), and we hope to make more of a national one this year. I will post more details as they become available. If I am to approach some entity in GTA to help with the organization or the promotion of the event, GTALUG seems like a good one. I'd be interested in either hosting the conference in in Toronto in 2007, or organizing a similar event. In that case, I think GTALUG would provide the necessary infrastructure (which you well explained in another post). So all in all, I think good things are coming out of these threads. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > --- > > Those of us who hoped for rational debate and understanding about a > greater purpose for incorporation, without personal attack, have been > sadly disappointed. The founders and directors of GTALUG, who are > generally very good and well-meaning people, just can't seem to grasp > what's being asked for, and continuance of this thread is likely to > generate far more heat than light in that regard. I consider this a > missed opportunity for GTALUG to really demonstrate its value to the > broader community, but that's how it goes... > > To everyone else, I apologize. I genuinely hoped to help spark an > enlightened discussion about GTALUG's future, one that could help > produce some ideas or energize the community behind its LUG. Instead the > spark seems to have lit a fuse or two. So long as the personal stuff > subsides, I'll stop pressing the issue. > > Talk is cheap, there's too much real work to be done in the support of > Linux and the advancement of open source use in Toronto. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:05:35 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:05:35 -0500 Subject: CNN.com Free Video In-Reply-To: <1134013789.4141.4.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134013789.4141.4.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <200512072305.35870.marc@lijour.net> I meant http://tv5.ca Marc On Wednesday 07 December 2005 22:49, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I complained to CNN that I couldn't view their videos at CNN.com using > Linux but all I received was the standard auto reply below. Maybe if > enough people send complaints we can get their attention. I guess they > are more interested in using 'misery' to sell soap than any social > responsibility. > RickT > http://www./TorontoNUI.ca > > On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 14:47 -0500, CNN.com wrote: > > Thank you for the e-mail you sent CNN.com about our Free Video > > service! This auto reply is your notification that we have received > > it. > > > > Your inquiry will be reviewed in the order it was received. In the > > interim, please visit our ?Frequently Asked Questions? page at > > http://www.cnn.com/help/video for possible resolution to your issue. > > Technical questions submitted through this area will receive a > > response. Other feedback will be included in the response report that > > is prepared and made available each day to our producers and senior > > management. > > > > Again, thank you for contacting us, and please visit the attached > > links for more information on our anchors, programs and schedules: > > > > > > > > Would you like additional information on our anchors? > > > > Please visit our anchor bio section at > > http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/ > > > > > > > > Would you like to review transcripts of previous > > shows? > > > > Please visit our transcript at > > http://www.cnn.com/transcripts > > > > > > > > Do you need information on the show schedules? > > > > Please visit us at http://www.cnn.com/programs > > > > > > > > Are you looking to purchase a videotape of one of the > > shows? > > > > You may order a video and/or transcript of a program > > or segment from any of the following sources: > > > > Multivision can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN > > for the past year, and for CNNI, CNNfn or Headline > > News for the past two months. Call or write at > > (800-560-0111) (925-472-8880), > > http://www.mvisionmedia.com > > > > Video Monitoring Service can provide tapes or > > transcripts of CNN, CNNl, CNNfn, or Headline News for > > the previous 2 months. Call or write them at > > (877-698-8007) (212-736-2010), http://www.vidmon.com > > > > > > > > > > FDCH can provide tapes or transcripts of CNN programs > > (domestic only) from October 1996 to present. Call or > > write them at (800-266-6397) (301-883-2482), > > cnntranscript-9RM52Qq6PdPhvxM+mQhndA at public.gmane.org Or visit their Web site at > > www.fdch.com and complete an order form. Their > > mailing address is 1100 Mercantile Lane, Landover, > > Maryland 20785. > > > > > > Please continue to send us your feedback on our free video service. > > Your input helps us consider changes that will most appeal to you, our > > valued user. > > > > Thanks again for your interest and keep your browser pointed to > > http://www.cnn.com/. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > CNN Public Information > > > > ?CNN, The Most Trusted Name In News? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:12:15 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:12:15 -0500 Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <4397839A.4040807-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 07:51:38PM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051207231215.K25423@diamond.ss.org> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 07:51:38PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >Actually the structure was something that TLUG lacked. The death of Jan made that very obvious. As for other umbrella groups being available, the people who initiated the incorporation (of which you were one) felt that no such group provided the structure that GTALUG ended up offering. > > > > > First off, I was _not_ one of the people who started the incorporation. > I was involved in a few exploratory meetings, came to the conclusion > that the activity was pointless (and said so publicly), and dropped out > long before any real effort was undertaken. Anyone involved is invited > to check their records. Simply because you dropped out didn't mean the process didn't continue without you nor did it mean that the people involved required your permission to proceed. > > As for filling the vacuum left by Jan, that's a people issue not an > infrastructure issue. Arguably the sudden (but far less tragic) > departure of Laszlo many years previous to Jan's death was an even > greater loss -- yet we coped. TLUG can survive the loss of anyone here > and keep going just fine. The "structure" of TLUG as we've known it > could survive the dissolution of GTALUG tomorrow and hardly anyone would > notice. People who volunteered to help GTALUG could still do their good > work within an unincorporated LUG without diminishing the value of their > work. Unlike you, I had to deal with the loss of Jan. Survival of this club can be attributed more to my persistence than to anyone else during the two years following Jan death. As for TLUG surviving the dissolution of GTALUG you are dreaming. To do that we would officially have to dissolve the mailing list (not transfer it) for legal reasons. Most of the volunteers today are post incorporation so I see no reason why these people would stick around after the corporation would dissolve. All the contacts with industry and government are contacts through these same volunteers so I doubt that those people would continue to support TLUG without incorporation especially since an unincorporated TLUG can't provide tax benefits to them. > > All the signs have been -- and not a single argument here has challenged > the notion -- that GTALUG was created to fix something that was never > broken. Having a corporation doesn't magically make the website easier > to manage or spam easier to extract from mailing lists. Nor does it > simplify volunteer recruitment. In fact, it complicates things because > of the costs and extra paperwork involved. > Your view here is irrelevent for two reasons. The first is that the people who did run TLUG, which you seem to forget you are not part nor have been part of for as long as I have been volunteering, did believe that incorporation will help and thus went through the process to get it. Secondly now that the incorporation is a fait accompli arguing for its neccessity is irrelevent. The people who run the group have chosen the model they are following not by arguing on a mailing list but by lining up to help. > >Everyone knows the vision: To advocate linux and the open source communities within Toronto and the GTA by providing a forum for people to get together and discuss the topics among interested people. > > > > Such a limited goal (one can hardly call it vision) is easily handled > without incorporation. The forums are provided by websites, meetings and Again this is also an irrelevent statement. The people who run this club chose the model of incorporation to handle this limited goal. > mailing lists, and none of that requires incorporation. Indeed, the vast > majority of LUGs worldwide -- including those I have visited in cities > such as Paris, Sydney, S?o Paulo and Tokyo -- are not incorporated, yet > they manage to have high quality meetings and mailings -- not to mention > social events -- just the same. Having a national body that is > incorporated (Linux Verband, Japan Linux Association, AFUL, Linux > Australia) which unincorporated local groups can use for infrastructure > as necessary is a globally proven, efficient and successful model. Even > Linux International can be (and has been) used in this context. And it > also worked in Canada, for many years before GTALUG existed. Arguing that other LUGs haven't incorporated isn't an argument. The affairs of other LUGs dictate how they organize. The affairs and circumstances of TLUG were such that those in charge decided that incorporation was the best route. > > The only time local LUG incorporation is normally considered is when > there is a desire to do something substantial beyond meetings and > mailings. Usually the nature of that desire is considered before > incorporating (not after), and it's rarely done without getting a broad > consensus of the pre-incorporation community. This is something that the > founders of GTALUG most certainly never did. Again this is an irrelevent statement. Simply because other LUGs believe they need grandiose plans to justify incorporation doesn't mean that TLUG needed such grandiose plans to justify it. > > And as for the name... it's completely incorrect that the incorporators > could not use the name TLUG for legal reasons. I have a very detailed > explanation of why, but I suspect that to many this thread has been > tiresome. > The incorporation could use the name but it would have required written permission from the board in Toledo. I didn't think this would have been a major obstacle, but those on the committee at the time felt that it was not worthwhile to pursue that avenue. My opinion was in the minority at the time and thus we decided on a new name and moved on to the next set of problems to tackle. > > Those of us who hoped for rational debate and understanding about a > greater purpose for incorporation, without personal attack, have been Ultimately there is nothing to debate about. The incorporation is done and it is the corporation that runs this club. Continually complaining about it on the mailing list is counter productive and shows a lack of respect to the people that put in the time and effort to organize it. > sadly disappointed. The founders and directors of GTALUG, who are > generally very good and well-meaning people, just can't seem to grasp > what's being asked for, and continuance of this thread is likely to No they don't grasp what is being asked for, and more importantly don't care. It comes down to a choice each individual on this mailing list has to make. You may either support the club going forward under its present structure or you may not. The people on the board support it. They don't really care what the people that don't support believe. If you feel that what is being done is wrong you can become a member and run for election to the board next year and change the direction of the club. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:35:40 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:35:40 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <200512071544.01777.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512071544.01777.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4397B81C.5030509@georgetown.wehave.net> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > As I understand it, GTALUG was formed by some subset of TLUG to > collect membership dues so that they could figure out what to do with > the membership dues once they had them. I have read various ideas of > what they want to do with the dues and list them below. > > * buy a projector Sometimes problematic, this would be useful. > * pay for meeting space Generally freely available from corporations and education institutions from what I have seen. > * protect members from legal liability Dunno, could be. I sure wouldn't want to be a director of GTALUG if this was the purpse, assume liability for all members, no thanks. > * "go after contracts" > * "go after government grants" This sounds very much for-profit, certainly not activity of a user/advocacy group. > Paid-up membership in GTALUG apparently also gives one the right to > vote for directors who in turn are some day supposed to figure out > what GTALUG, this formal layer above TLUG, is and why it is > necessary. > > Did I miss anything? Hopefully you have. One possibly useful outcome of incorporation might be the ability to invite paid speakers to TLUG meetings. Toronto Perl Mongers (or possibly a very small subset) managed to arrange several visits by Damien Conway, outrageously successful talks. I also recall them arranging a YAPC conference. They may not be incorporated mind you ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:51:25 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:51:25 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: ; from tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 09:40:39PM -0500 References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051207235125.L25423@diamond.ss.org> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 09:40:39PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > > > I'm probably the only one qualified to answer this so let me try. > > > > 1) GTALUG as an organization was incorporated in 2003 > > So far so good. But this: > > > to carry on the management of the Toronto Linux Users Group (TLUG), > > is in dispute because it's not clear that GTALUG has been given that mandate > by the membership of the informal organization known as TLUG. > Nothing the informal organization did had a mandate. Neither Lazlo, nor Drew were ever elected. NewTlug was never voted on. WestLug formed and then showed up saying they were part of the group. The various SIGs that have come and gone had no mandate other than the people that started them claiming to be part of TLUG. > > > 2) TLUG is the organization that existed prior to formal incorporation and is > > generally used to denote the meeting that happens at UofT once a month and > > this mailing list. > > Perhaps it's worth noting that TLUG was always an informal > organization. AFAIK, there were never any rules regarding its membership and > governance. > > [snip] > > > History ======= > > > > The incorporation started in 2000. At the time I was one of the people > > managing the club but was not involved with the incorporation. > > I think it would be better to say you were an active volunteer as the term > "managing" implies you had both the responsibility and authority to act on > behalf of the group, neither of which is really true. I don't mean to > diminish or belittle your efforts but I do think it's important to try and > clarify roles. FWIW, I was also an active volunteer in 2000 but I never > considered myself to be managing anything other than my own time. > You are correct "managing" is the wrong word to have used. I think the best word was coordinator. I got to the point where I was telling the other volunteers what needed to be done and find volunteers to do the job. Presently that role is being shared by several people, myself being one of them. > > I became involved after about a dozen meetings of the incorporation > > committee. > > "Incorporation committe", that sounds formal. There was a loose group of > volunteers who thought incorporation might be beneficial. Actually that was the title that was given to them on the mailing list. I'm not sure why but it did stick. > > > The incorporation was spearheaded by Clive Apps, Jan Carlson, and George > > (????). > > George Free, IIRC. Yes I remembered the name after I sent the email. > > Until this week, I've stayed out of the politics but I've been paying > attention to the list. From time to time, people have been asking > questions like: > > o What is GTALUG? > > o How is the membership defined, i.e. who are the members? > > o How is GTALUG governed? > > o What rights and obligations do members have? > > o What do we get for $20? > > o What are the by-laws of GTALUG? > I have answered all of these questions before. The last one is one that Chris has been working on to get on-line since only paper copies were provided to us. > Pretty basic, reasonable stuff. At best the response has been defensive. > > > September of this year we had our first election where, Edward, Don and I > > stepped down and Chris Browne, Seneca Cunningham, and William Park were > > elected. > > Hmmm. I can't find an announcement in the mailing list archives. I didn't send an email, but I know it was sent. It may have been sent to the GTALUG-members list though. > > > Presently the members of the board and several other people, myself included > > make up the excutive that helps organize the TLUG meetings downtown, the > > NewTlug meetings at Seneca and IBM, and the WestLug meeting in Mississauga, > > although these tend to be done by people that are on the board rather than a > > group effort. We also on many occasions make contacts with people in other > > LUGs, people in industry, and people in government on behalf of the club to > > foster outreach programs, provide advice, or do joint projects. > > How is the executive defined? Do people just show up to an executive meeting > and say, "Here I am, I'm an executive?" That's pretty much how it worked in > the past but that's not appropriate if you plan to represent the group as you > said above. There are three groups that really make up the executive: The Board - those elected officials. The Officers - there are several appointed positions that the board appoints. The Leaders - these are people who do most to all the volunteer work and thus are invited to the meetings. These people don't actually vote on issues although most of the discussion is started by them. > > > Please remember that the people that ran TLUG before and after the > > incorporation haven't changed substantially. GTALUG is the formal > > organization. > > > > Generally the only major difference between the old organization and the new > > one is a fee of $20 a year collected for membership. The main complaint is > > asking what is the money to be used for. Presently the money is used for very > > little and is kept in a bank. > > I haven't paid my $20. Am I (still) a member? Should I be dropped from this > list, barred from meetings, etc.? > There is no requirements of membership to be on this list or to attend the public meetings. If the board decides to do something only for the members you would not be invited, but that has never happened yet. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 06:34:49 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 01:34:49 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4397B81C.5030509-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051206174310.GA2544@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512071544.01777.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <4397B81C.5030509@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <20051208063449.GA15275@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 11:35:40PM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > >Did I miss anything? > > Hopefully you have. > > One possibly useful outcome of incorporation might be the ability to > invite paid speakers to TLUG meetings. Toronto Perl Mongers (or > possibly a very small subset) managed to arrange several visits by > Damien Conway, outrageously successful talks. I also recall them > arranging a YAPC conference. They may not be incorporated mind you ... Toronto Perl Mongers is not incorporated. The individual members arranged for Damian's visits (the group as a whole did about 30% of the work and one individual did the other 70%). The YAPC conference was again a work of the entire group, with some few doing larger shares of the load. The aspects of the Damian talks that required signatures (if any - I don't know if any signatures were required to get the presentation rooms, otherwise no signatures were required) would have been done personally by one individual. For YAPC, The Perl Foundation (a U.S. based non-profit) provided some signatures, but again much was done with personal guarantees by the organizer. The monthly meetings and mailing list have also carried on without any incorporated entity being involved. Payment for speakers (such as Damian) is done by the organizer stating on the mailing list that some money will be required and enough of the mongers agree to chip in that the costs are covered - and if that hadn't happened, the discussion was done early enough that the event could have been cancelled if the money were essential to it happening. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 06:24:26 2005 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 01:24:26 -0500 Subject: a second hand computer or mother board around? In-Reply-To: <43956C85.5000905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <438BE41B.9040507@telly.org> <871x0x93z7.fsf@MagnumOpus.khem> <438E5957.6060503@telly.org> <438E5C55.8070205@istop.com> <20051201042153.GA3524@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051204184526.2466ffde.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051205042721.GA3705@node1.opengeometry.net> <43949563.8060802@pppoe.ca> <22318ee50512051722k6464d1b5yca2099a523aebbb6@mail.gmail.com> <4394EAB9.3060403@rogers.com> <4394F022.4070207@pppoe.ca> <43956C85.5000905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051208012426.18d2cebc.hgibson@eol.ca> On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:48:37 -0500 James Knott wrote: > >> I'm certain His Billyness will be happy to hear that! ;-) > > > > I must have missed a message somewhere but thanks :-) > > > > But shouldn't Howard's mother have the final say ?:-) > > Who??? ;-) I suppose she does, except that I don't have any Windows install media. I am trying to be funny. Laugh, dammit! Mom has a computer that works, a firewall that works, two office suites with a high level of Windows interoperability, and another word processor and another spreadsheet. If she wants to be a terrorist about grammar and language, she can learn LaTeX, although I don't think she knows this. She can allow grandchildren on the computer without massive supervision, because they cannot damage anyting. If there is a problem, she has the install media, although I would probably have to help her. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 06:23:20 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 01:23:20 -0500 Subject: help with KDE::Konqueror! Message-ID: <200512080123.21588.marc@lijour.net> Hi suddenly asking to view the document source in konqueror (CTRL+U) runs planner instead of kate. How do I revert to the default behaviour? Thanks, Marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 08:52:53 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 08 Dec 2005 03:52:53 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207235125.L25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051207235125.L25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > There is no requirements of membership to be on this list or to attend the > public meetings. If the board decides to do something only for the members > you would not be invited, but that has never happened yet. And therein lies the rub. I've been a member of TLUG since about 1997. I've personally contributed in a meaningful way, although not so much recently, both via the mailing lists and through my participation at meetings and various events and initiatives, including a great deal of volunteer time at the CLUE centre, installfests, trade shows, and sundry "executive" meetings. Furthermore, I've made direct financial contributions through my company Starnix, my partners (Matthew Rice and formerly Evan Leibovitch and Bill Duncan) have given huge amounts of time, and we have encouraged our staff to participate in and contribute to TLUG. Yet, I'm no longer a full member because I haven't paid my membership dues. It's not that I object to paying $20. Nor do I seek special treatment because of past contributions. I do, however, object to a small, self-appointed group redefining the terms of membership without first attempting to build a wide concensus. The fact that TLUG had no formal organizational structure is no excuse for imposing change from above, as it were, especially to something so fundamental as the accepted definition of membership. Just because we weren't in the habit of voting, doesn't mean a vote of the full membership shouldn't have been called or at least proposed. Does it not seem just a little undemocratic that an election was held only after the membership was redefined? Had the proponents of change approached the full membership in an open and transparent manner, I'm sure change would have been effected amicably and there would be no reason for acrimony and alienation. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 09:11:45 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 08 Dec 2005 04:11:45 -0500 Subject: Incorporation redux In-Reply-To: <20051207231215.K25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <20051207231215.K25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 07:51:38PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > All the signs have been -- and not a single argument here has challenged > >the notion -- that GTALUG was created to fix something that was never > >broken. Having a corporation doesn't magically make the website easier to > >manage or spam easier to extract from mailing lists. Nor does it simplify > >volunteer recruitment. In fact, it complicates things because of the costs > >and extra paperwork involved. > > > Your view here is irrelevent for two reasons. Evan's view is relevant because he's a member. > The first is that the people who did run TLUG, which you seem to forget you > are not part nor have been part of for as long as I have been volunteering, [snip] > The people who run the group have chosen the model they are following not > by arguing on a mailing list but by lining up to help. [snip] > The people who run this club chose the model of incorporation to handle > this limited goal. [snip] > The affairs and circumstances of TLUG were such that those in charge > decided that incorporation was the best route. [snip] > The incorporation is done and it is the corporation that runs this > club. [snip] "The people who run this club", "those in charge", "the incorportion", .... I sense a pattern. > Continually complaining about it on the mailing list is counter > productive and shows a lack of respect to the people that put in the time > and effort to organize it. But telling members that their views are irrlevant and that they should bow to the superior wisdom of those in charge is respectful? You have an interesting definition of respect. > The people on the board support it. They don't really care what the people > that don't support believe. The people in charge don't take kindly to criticism. > If you feel that what is being done is wrong you can become a member and > run for election to the board next year and change the direction of the > club. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. As soon as he pays his $20 to become a member, you mean. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 10:10:11 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 06:10:11 -0400 (AST) Subject: TLUG Inc. Message-ID: I have a proposition: let's create TLUG Inc. and dissolve GTALUG. Problem Solved. (do you sense sarcasm?) But then the question would be, how different TLUG Inc would be from GTALUG except in name and history? Would it be less inconvenient to incorporate these other differences (if there are any) into the existing GTALUG? Late night ideas are the best :O) TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 11:30:53 2005 From: anarcap-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (marius) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 06:30:53 -0500 Subject: TLUG Inc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22318ee50512080330o38374c33ib398661b16acecaf@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > I have a proposition: let's create TLUG Inc. and dissolve GTALUG. Problem > Solved. And before anyone says that "TLUG Inc." is taken, you can incorporate under any name (a numbered company is cheapest) and for under $100 register the name you want to publically use. So incorporate 1234567 Ontario Inc, and register the TLUG name. //mts > (do you sense sarcasm?) > > But then the question would be, how different TLUG Inc would be from > GTALUG except in name and history? Would it be less inconvenient to > incorporate these other differences (if there are any) into the existing > GTALUG? > > Late night ideas are the best :O) > > TAA > > ----------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 12:26:02 2005 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 07:26:02 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051207175832.E25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> On 12/7/2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Prior to GTALUG's formation TLUG was a dictatorship. The orginal > dictator was the clubs creator Lazlo, and when he left Drew took over > the role. In fact until September of this year no one had ever voted > for anything in this club. Rather than rebut directly in length, I'll just say that Tim Writer has pretty much summed up my position vis-a-vis this discussion. Basically, it appears that GTALUG doesn't have a mandate from the TLUG membership to act on it's behalf -- The membership being defined as one being subscribed to the TLUG e-mail list at the time GTALUG was being formed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 14:30:19 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:30:19 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <4398265A.5060505-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org>; from kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:26:02AM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:26:02AM -0500, Stephen Allen wrote: > On 12/7/2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Prior to GTALUG's formation TLUG was a dictatorship. The orginal > > dictator was the clubs creator Lazlo, and when he left Drew took over > > the role. In fact until September of this year no one had ever voted > > for anything in this club. > > Rather than rebut directly in length, I'll just say that Tim Writer has > pretty much summed up my position vis-a-vis this discussion. > > Basically, it appears that GTALUG doesn't have a mandate from the TLUG > membership to act on it's behalf -- The membership being defined as one > being subscribed to the TLUG e-mail list at the time GTALUG was being > formed. > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. If you feel that they are doing a bad job your recourse of action is to become and member of GTALUG and change it from within. Whining about it on the mailing list isn't going to accomplish anything. Another options is to leave here and go off and create your own club and mailing list. This has happened several time in the past with mixed success. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 14:35:15 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:35:15 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051208093019.A32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2005, at 9:30 AM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. Wow! If you could look at that sentence from a 3rd-party point of view, I think you'd see every objection in a concise summary. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 14:44:43 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:44:43 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: ; from phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:35:15AM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051208094443.B32719@diamond.ss.org> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:35:15AM -0500, phil wrote: > On Dec 8, 2005, at 9:30 AM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. > > Wow! If you could look at that sentence from a 3rd-party point of > view, I think you'd see every objection in a concise summary. > I understand exactly what you are saying. That doesn't make the sentence any less valid. There is a process to change the direction that GTALUG is following and that process isn't whining about it on the list. Like it or not the present mode of operation is that GTALUG runs the operation of this club. Yes it was a structure that was imposed from above by the ones running the club without notification to the people on the mailing list. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 15:27:03 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 08 Dec 2005 10:27:03 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051208094443.B32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> <20051208094443.B32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:35:15AM -0500, phil wrote: > > On Dec 8, 2005, at 9:30 AM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. > > Wow! If you could look at that sentence from a 3rd-party point of view, I > >think you'd see every objection in a concise summary. > > > I understand exactly what you are saying. That doesn't make the sentence any > less valid. Of course it does. Yes, what's done is done. GTALUG can't be unincorporated nor is it reasonabe to do so. However, GTALUG can change its tone and approach to the _full_ membership. > There is a process to change the direction that GTALUG is > following and that process isn't whining about it on the list. > > Like it or not the present mode of operation is that GTALUG runs the > operation of this club. Those are both circular arguments. In a nutshell, you're saying, "We created GTALUG and you have to live with it". Why? "Because GTALUG has rules that must be followed." > Yes it was a structure that was imposed from above by the ones running the > club without notification to the people on the mailing list. And you're not interested in redressing that? My suggestion is that the full membership of TLUG (i.e. everyone who was registerd on this mailing list at the time of GTALUG incorporation) be given full voting rights for a period of 6 months or a year. During that period, no changes are made to the membership rules. At the end of that period, GTALUG has an election and the elected board (which will likely have many of the same people) will be seen as representing the full membership. This is an open, transparent, and democratic process that doesn't "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and gives time for people to cool off. My irrelevant $0.02. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 15:31:03 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:31:03 -0500 Subject: It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is In-Reply-To: <20051208093019.A32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439851B7.50908@telly.org> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. > While I don't question the accuracy of Bill's assertion, I wonder whether it's a helpful attitude, coming out of an organization that is (at least superficially) trying to attract members, volunteers and possibly sponsors. Obviously credibility isn't being sought. It's already been stated that GTALUG membership is less than 10% of the TLUG community. It's probably a _lot_ less than 10%. And given the above slogan for the current membership drive, it's not likely to grow much either. The only opportunity for GTALUG to build membership will be at a something like LinuxWorld, where people who simply want to "support the community" might join without knowing the situation. >Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. > The conspiracy theorist in people might wonder whether the whole point of this exercise is to ultimately funnel membership funds into the hands of those who "run the club", to one day generate profit for the subcontracted provision of resources that are currently volunteered. Since no other purpose has been offered for the money collected, and the management of said resources is *the* key stated function of GTALUG, it's not inconceivable. Furthermore, since we don't even have access to the bylaws online, we don't know what safeguards if any exist to prevent this from happening. I for one certainly hope that such bylaw safeguards exist, in which case such a theory would be moot. - Evan PS: I like Tim's idea about the six-month trial period. However, as stated, it doesn't matter what our positions are... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 15:54:07 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:54:07 -0500 Subject: It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is In-Reply-To: <439851B7.50908-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> <439851B7.50908@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051208155407.GU3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 10:31:03AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > The conspiracy theorist in people might wonder whether the whole point > of this exercise is to ultimately funnel membership funds into the hands > of those who "run the club", to one day generate profit for the > subcontracted provision of resources that are currently volunteered. > Since no other purpose has been offered for the money collected, and the > management of said resources is *the* key stated function of GTALUG, > it's not inconceivable. Furthermore, since we don't even have access to > the bylaws online, we don't know what safeguards if any exist to prevent > this from happening. I for one certainly hope that such bylaw safeguards > exist, in which case such a theory would be moot. If I thought there was a point in joining GTALUG as a paid member (and the membership fee was something I thought was reasonable), I probably would join. I don't think either is the case right now. I have been a member of the Computer Science Club at the University of Waterloo for some 11 years now (even though I graduated over 5 years ago). They way it was run was much simpler to understand. To join you paid a membership fee of $2 per term (something even students can afford), which allowed you to vote at the meetings being help, and run for the positions (president, VP, secretary and treasurer). The 4 elected positions would nominate a system administrator (to run the machines the club owns) and the members present at the meeting would either accept or reject the proposed sysadmin. A minimum number of people were required to be at the meeting for votes to be valid, which I can't recall anymore, but I think it was 15 or 20 people or so. Given the club has probably around 1000 members, many of whom are not at the university, it seemed to work pretty well that way. The money collected were used to pay for new hardware once in a while for the club machines, and occationally new furnitue for the club's room and such. Members can also request an account (and most do) on the machines, although the membership does not buy the account, so that abuse can be dealt with simply. I know where my $2 are going every 4 months, while I would have no idea where my $20 would be going if I became a member of GTALUG. I don't miss the $6 per year. I get a lot of value for them. I might miss $20. So what is my point? Well this particular club had all it's rules (the club constitution) listed on the web site, and brought a printed copy to the election meeting every term, to make sure it was followed. Changing it requires quorum at a meeting with I think 66% in favour minimum. Maybe if GTALUG was as clear in how it was doing things, people wouldn't be complaining that they don't know what is going on. As for how to get rid of things if they don't work, well I have no idea what incorporation involves, but at least the university clubs would occationally start to dwindle, and sometimes two clubs of related interests would merge so that they could have only one set of people organizing things. This happend to a bunch of clubs for math interests causing a club with a very long acronym for it's name to evolve, which seemed to then stick around just fine. If no one had any interest in GTALUG anymore, I am sure it would stop existing, and anyone that had a desire for a mailing list could start one and continue running one unrelated to the corporation. I honestly have no idea why the mailing list couldn't be spun off again if that was decided by the board if for some reason GTALUG was to be disolved. After all companies spin off divisions sometimes, why can't an incorporated group do the same. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:08:43 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 08 Dec 2005 11:08:43 -0500 Subject: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: <4397919B.1050900-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> Message-ID: Evan Leibovitch writes: > > This has probably be answered before, but what things, in terms of > > infrastucture, do these national bodies provide? > > The most obvious one is to provide an "entity" for the purpose of signing > any kind of contract, so individual LUG members can't be held liable for > signing on behalf of the group. There are other less obvious items that these bodies provide which are just as, or more, useful. For example, CLUE is also hosting two LUG sites and mailing lists: http://test.linux.ca/drupal (will become newtlug.linux.ca) and http://nolug.linux.ca/drupal (will become nolug.linux.ca) For groups with more resources, we either assign a complete subdomain to the group for them to use as they see fit (including their own DNS servers) such as: http://www.sask.linux.ca/ or just host the DNS for them so that their one machine can concentrate on their web and mail services. Such as: http://hamilton.linux.ca/ This is available for any group in Canada, BTW. Of course, there's also the 'kill the hotmail.com email addresses' campaign, too, where any registered person gets a free @linux.ca alias which forwards to their registered e-mail address. Perhaps, GTALUG could offer similar perks to their members. 'Member' sites such as membername.gtalug.org and @gtalug.org email addresses, that is. BTW, for anyone looking for that new look on the CLUE site that was mentioned in another thread, it hasn't launched yet. It's at: http://www.linux.ca/drupal The one thing that makes me happiest about the move to drupal is that we can connect the forums and the mailing lists. So dinosaurs like me can continue to use mailing lists to communicate while others can use the forums (blech). Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:28:08 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:28:08 -0500 Subject: It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is In-Reply-To: <439851B7.50908-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>; from evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 10:31:03AM -0500 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> <439851B7.50908@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051208112808.C32719@diamond.ss.org> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 10:31:03AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. > > > While I don't question the accuracy of Bill's assertion, I wonder > whether it's a helpful attitude, coming out of an organization that is > (at least superficially) trying to attract members, volunteers and > possibly sponsors. > Seeing I am no longer a member of the board, and have no official role in GTALUG executive I see no reason why I should limit my opinions to that of the board. In reality every time this conversation occurs there is five or six people that believe me when I say that the best way to change TLUG to is to volunteer and make there voices known to the people that run this club that something is wrong and that they are willing to fix it. The wiki for TLUG resulted because Sy read the thread about incorporation that was being banted around in August and September and contacted me about setting up a wiki for TLUG. Several companies approached us as sponsors based on these discussion. The reality is that GTALUG is democratic, it does foster an air of debate and discussion even about its very existence. The strength of this organization is the people that support it. Not the ones that don't. > Obviously credibility isn't being sought. We arleady have credibility. You may not believe it but the people and organization that we speak to do. > > It's already been stated that GTALUG membership is less than 10% of the > TLUG community. It's probably a _lot_ less than 10%. And given the above > slogan for the current membership drive, it's not likely to grow much > either. It is actually about 10%. It may shrink it may grow it doesn't really matter much. What matters is the drive of those people that are members and volunteers. > > The only opportunity for GTALUG to build membership will be at a > something like LinuxWorld, where people who simply want to "support the > community" might join without knowing the situation. > And this is bad? At least these people are supporting the community. > >Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. > > > The conspiracy theorist in people might wonder whether the whole point > of this exercise is to ultimately funnel membership funds into the hands > of those who "run the club", to one day generate profit for the > subcontracted provision of resources that are currently volunteered. > Since no other purpose has been offered for the money collected, and the > management of said resources is *the* key stated function of GTALUG, > it's not inconceivable. Furthermore, since we don't even have access to > the bylaws online, we don't know what safeguards if any exist to prevent > this from happening. I for one certainly hope that such bylaw safeguards > exist, in which case such a theory would be moot. > I believe that it was stated in another post by someone else who came to the executive meeting that he was convinced the accounting for the club was accurate. I'm not going to say he is any more honest than anyone else. But consider the simple fact that the general meeting in September was open to anyone who wished to show up, and at that meeting there was photocopies of all of this years expenditures for anyone to take and scrutinize. The reality is that this club is run by honest people who have nothing to hide. I don't believe anyone on this list has questioned any of the ongoing operation of TLUG. The only thing that has ever been debated is the policies. As for the By-Laws, Chris Johnson is working on putting them online. The best thing to do is pester him. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:34:48 2005 From: rob-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw at public.gmane.org (Rob Sutherland) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:34:48 +0000 Subject: Hey guys... In-Reply-To: <439851B7.50908-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> <439851B7.50908@telly.org> Message-ID: <439860A8.3090803@cheapersafer.com> I've been watching TLUG or whatever for the last couple of years with a mixture of frustration and bemusement and given the latest flamewar about the structure and/or lack of it I think I've had enough. First, there's no point screaming at the people who've wound up holding the bag and putting in time to try and make it work. If you honestly believe that they're the Minions of Satan(tm) then book a room at the local library, put an ad on Craigslist, set up a mailing list and start up your own organization with the structure *you* want. Secondly, since there are problems, the thing to do is set up an area to discuss and hopefully address them where this won't involve the majority of list users, who doubtless regard this entire "debate" as a nasty waste of time. Why not set up another mailing list to discuss this and make the topic off-topic on the main list? Other LUGs do this and even if it winds up being the same crap, at least it doesn't force J. Random Linux User to wade through it. I can see no reason this can't be done. I'm sufficently exercised that I'm going to drop off the list for a few weeks right after I send this and see if anything gets resolved. Please, people, take a deep breath and try to back off from this razor dance. A LUG is a vitally important part of the linux thing and the mailing list is the heart of the LUG. Continuing to escalate the acrimony level, for whatever reasons, will just increase the difficulty level for everyone. See you in January, Rob -- Rob Sutherland - http://www.cheapersafer.com Business Computer Support and Training -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:55:36 2005 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:55:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Legitimacy of opinions voiced on the mailing list (was: [something else]) In-Reply-To: <20051208093019.A32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. Presently > GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. If you feel that they > are doing a bad job your recourse of action is to become and member of > GTALUG and change it from within. Whining about it on the mailing list > isn't going to accomplish anything. Speaking up on the mailing list doesn't count as "from within"? What does? Is running for an elected position the only way to get heard? JV not a card-carrying member -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:56:30 2005 From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:56:30 -0500 Subject: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> Message-ID: <17af13780512080856q199514b6m34ea31177d04c657@mail.gmail.com> > The one thing that makes me happiest about the move to drupal is that we can > connect the forums and the mailing lists. So dinosaurs like me can continue > to use mailing lists to communicate while others can use the forums (blech). I can't test it right now (writing from work), but I'll be curious to know how well this gateway works. You can see the kind of trouble I mean by reading the mailing lists corresponding to the gnu.* usenet subtree. Threads are broken all the time because the gateway seems to rewrite the Message-Id headers of posts done through the mailing list. -- "Political systems do not deal easily with long term threats, even if they have a probability of 100%" James Schlesinger, a former director of the CIA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:15:16 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 08 Dec 2005 12:15:16 -0500 Subject: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: <17af13780512080856q199514b6m34ea31177d04c657-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> <17af13780512080856q199514b6m34ea31177d04c657@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ian Zimmerman writes: > > The one thing that makes me happiest about the move to drupal is that we can > > connect the forums and the mailing lists. So dinosaurs like me can continue > > to use mailing lists to communicate while others can use the forums (blech). > > I can't test it right now (writing from work), but I'll be curious to know > how well this gateway works. I'll let you (and the list) know how it works out. We don't have it set up yet but should in a few days. > You can see the kind of trouble I mean by reading the mailing lists > corresponding to the gnu.* usenet subtree. Threads are broken all the time > because the gateway seems to rewrite the Message-Id headers of posts done > through the mailing list. You're talking about a usenet<->mailing list gateway? That seems to be a bug in the gateway (or the listmanager or some people's mail clients), then. There should be lots of clues about the thread in people's e-mails. TTYL, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:11:13 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:11:13 -0500 Subject: self help tech support portal Message-ID: <20051208171113.GC29919@ettin> I'm considering installing a self help web portal for our user base. Content would include a knowledge base, howto articles and news updates for service windows and alerts. Certain users would have the ability to add their own content via uploads and posts. There have been some applications for this suggested including WebGUI and Metadot. I'd appreciate any opinions or suggestions folks could offer. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 98 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:12:06 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:12:06 -0500 Subject: It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is In-Reply-To: <20051208112808.C32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> <439851B7.50908@telly.org> <20051208112808.C32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 10:31:03AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >>billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >> >>>It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. >>> >> >>While I don't question the accuracy of Bill's assertion, I wonder >>whether it's a helpful attitude, coming out of an organization that is >>(at least superficially) trying to attract members, volunteers and >>possibly sponsors. >> > > Seeing I am no longer a member of the board, and have no official role in GTALUG executive I see no reason why I should limit my opinions to that of the board. > > In reality every time this conversation occurs there is five or six people that believe me when I say that the best way to change TLUG to is to volunteer and make there voices known to the people that run this club that something is wrong and that they are willing to fix it. > > The wiki for TLUG resulted because Sy read the thread about incorporation that was being banted around in August and September and contacted me about setting up a wiki for TLUG. Several companies approached us as sponsors based on these discussion. > > The reality is that GTALUG is democratic, it does foster an air of debate and discussion even about its very existence. The strength of this organization is the people that support it. Not the ones that don't. > A democratic nature is all well and good -- but to what end? What is the use to the community at large? Apart from a functioning mailing list and wiki (both of which I don't discredit as useless by any means), how would things be any different with any of the various approaches to people management? How can GTALUG's democratic nature be put to some use that the people who are non-paying members can see, understand, and be motivated to join by (such being the apparent?) mandate at the moment. >>Obviously credibility isn't being sought. > > > We arleady have credibility. You may not believe it but the people and organization that we speak to do. > Credibility amongst members should be first and foremost to any community organization. Instead we have a repeating acrimonious debate a few times a year. This partisanship ("a firm adherent to a party , faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance" from m-w dictionary) is precisely the reason that I am not a member. If management of members was a priority and there was something to be gained by joining I would in a second. But to play the otherside, why stop at the credibility that GTALUG has now? Surely a more informed and unified body of members could lend that much more credibility to whatever end it is being directed. To be able to state almost unequivocally that there 1000 potential members of "The LUG" who could be involved in whatever it is that needs credibility cannot but help with whatever goal(s) there are or will be in the future. >>It's already been stated that GTALUG membership is less than 10% of the >>TLUG community. It's probably a _lot_ less than 10%. And given the above >>slogan for the current membership drive, it's not likely to grow much >>either. > With the 1000 or so current members to whatever constitutes the TLUG? community, $20 a piece would add up rather quickly if everyone chipped in knowing that they were contributing to something specific or tangible. $20k per year could go a long way if there were some common goal shared by all. > >>The only opportunity for GTALUG to build membership will be at a >>something like LinuxWorld, where people who simply want to "support the >>community" might join without knowing the situation. >> > > And this is bad? At least these people are supporting the community. > I'd be happy to pay $20 a year and have it put to use by an incorporated LUG but I'd want to have a reason first. I can't imagine that to simply give $20 to an unknown entity would make most people feel all warm and fuzzy like. I don't think that an "if you build it they will come" attitude is necessarily the most effective way to go about organizing resources and people. While ideals and good ideas are necessary in the beginning of any project, company, organization etc., there is no GTALUG effort that I am aware of directly promoting, fostering, and maintaining Linux in the Toronto area. That being said, I have no idea as to how much work goes on in the background by board members. But then, I suppose that that just supports my point that there is no leadership by example that I am aware of. If I am simply naive and unaware because I'm not involved enough, that too supports my point that there is a definitive lack of profile. People will not simply join for altruistic reasons (else I'd already have paid up), they need motivation, something very much missing around these parts. >>>Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. >>> >> >>The conspiracy theorist in people might wonder whether the whole point >>of this exercise is to ultimately funnel membership funds into the hands >>of those who "run the club", to one day generate profit for the >>subcontracted provision of resources that are currently volunteered. >>Since no other purpose has been offered for the money collected, and the >>management of said resources is *the* key stated function of GTALUG, >>it's not inconceivable. Furthermore, since we don't even have access to >>the bylaws online, we don't know what safeguards if any exist to prevent >>this from happening. I for one certainly hope that such bylaw safeguards >>exist, in which case such a theory would be moot. >> > > I believe that it was stated in another post by someone else who came to the executive meeting that he was convinced the accounting for the club was accurate. I'm not going to say he is any more honest than anyone else. > > But consider the simple fact that the general meeting in September was open to anyone who wished to show up, and at that meeting there was photocopies of all of this years expenditures for anyone to take and scrutinize. > > The reality is that this club is run by honest people who have nothing to hide. I don't believe anyone on this list has questioned any of the ongoing operation of TLUG. The only thing that has ever been debated is the policies. > > As for the By-Laws, Chris Johnson is working on putting them online. The best thing to do is pester him. > > Bill All well and good to have bylaws, but again, to what end? Instead of focusing GTALUG's resources inwardly on the organization, establishing it and then seeking members, why not target those who aren't members first and get them to help organize the organization? In fact, why not put the current bylaws (draft or otherwise) up for all to see, debate, and modify/agree upon until all are happy? This would put all those 10% who've paid membership dues out to no small degree I'm sure -- but as a show of good faith to everyone else? I don't particulary think that a pay-to-play style of democracy is effective, and can't even see why it should be called such. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:13:53 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:13:53 -0500 Subject: self help tech support portal In-Reply-To: <20051208171113.GC29919@ettin>; from tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 12:11:13PM -0500 References: <20051208171113.GC29919@ettin> Message-ID: <20051208121353.F32719@diamond.ss.org> You may also want to look at using a wiki such as wikimedia. Is your data structured? Do you plan to provide searching capabilities? Bill On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 12:11:13PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > I'm considering installing a self help web portal for our user base. > Content would include a knowledge base, howto articles and news updates > for service windows and alerts. Certain users would have the ability to > add their own content via uploads and posts. There have been some > applications for this suggested including WebGUI and Metadot. > > I'd appreciate any opinions or suggestions folks could offer. > > -- > Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux > Network Administrator | Uptime 98 days > http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:26:04 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:26:04 -0500 Subject: Drupal was Re: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re: : Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> Message-ID: <43986CAC.1070705@utoronto.ca> G. Matthew Rice wrote: > BTW, for anyone looking for that new look on the CLUE site that was mentioned > in another thread, it hasn't launched yet. It's at: > > http://www.linux.ca/drupal > > The one thing that makes me happiest about the move to drupal is that we can > connect the forums and the mailing lists. So dinosaurs like me can continue > to use mailing lists to communicate while others can use the forums (blech). > Yahoo Groups also offers this functionality. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:48:10 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 08 Dec 2005 12:48:10 -0500 Subject: Drupal was Re: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: <43986CAC.1070705-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> <43986CAC.1070705@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Ivan Avery Frey writes: > > The one thing that makes me happiest about the move to drupal is that we > > can connect the forums and the mailing lists. So dinosaurs like me can > > continue to use mailing lists to communicate while others can use the > > forums (blech). > > Yahoo Groups also offers this functionality. Very true but there are some perks on our side. Foremost is the ability to have a memorable and cool name like mylug.linux.ca :) Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:43:56 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:43:56 -0500 Subject: self help tech support portal In-Reply-To: <20051208121353.F32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051208171113.GC29919@ettin> <20051208121353.F32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051208174356.GD29919@ettin> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 12:13:53PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >You may also want to look at using a wiki such as wikimedia. > >Is your data structured? Do you plan to provide searching capabilities? Current data only consists of some static html files. Searching would be nice. Although I'll consider PHP, Perl is preferred. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 98 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:42:24 2005 From: nobrowser-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:42:24 -0500 Subject: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> <17af13780512080856q199514b6m34ea31177d04c657@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17af13780512080942x5ede7650ue98f0f518d55efb4@mail.gmail.com> > > You can see the kind of trouble I mean by reading the mailing lists > > corresponding to the gnu.* usenet subtree. Threads are broken all the time > > because the gateway seems to rewrite the Message-Id headers of posts done > > through the mailing list. > > You're talking about a usenet<->mailing list gateway? That seems to be a bug > in the gateway (or the listmanager or some people's mail clients), then. > There should be lots of clues about the thread in people's e-mails. > Yes, that exactly what i mean, it's a bug in the gateway. I meant I am curious to see if the forum<->list gateway you've mentioned is free of that bug. -- "Political systems do not deal easily with long term threats, even if they have a probability of 100%" James Schlesinger, a former director of the CIA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:15:59 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:15:59 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051208181559.GA2530@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:35:21PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that > live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near > Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but > he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. It is spelled 'WestTLUG'. But, close enough. :-) -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:26:25 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:26:25 -0400 (AST) Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051208093019.A32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: > > Basically, it appears that GTALUG doesn't have a mandate from the TLUG > > membership to act on it's behalf -- The membership being defined as one > > being subscribed to the TLUG e-mail list at the time GTALUG was being > > formed. > > > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. If you feel that they are doing a bad job your recourse of action is to become and member of GTALUG and change it from within. Whining about it on the mailing list isn't going to accomplish anything. > > Another options is to leave here and go off and create your own club and mailing list. This has happened several time in the past with mixed success. Since the TLUG list members never voted on GTALUG representing them, it does not matter whether GTALUG runs the list and meeting or not, they still represent only their own paid members, and not the whole community. Of course, that is only from the legal point of view. In practice, companies may choose to believe otherwise. An alternative to the 6 month free membership of TLUG members in GTALUG (this option has too many holes), GTALUG may simply propose to TLUG members that GTALUG becomes the voice of those on the list, whether they're member or not. I think this is fairly easy to do, require to changes in GTALUG, and would address the issue that GTALUG was not voted on by TLUG members. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:34:40 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:34:40 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace Message-ID: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) pretty much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? What is needed are more high profile brand name devices which clearly indicate they are powered by Linux OR some other operating system. I'm not an open source advocate to the core. I believe competition should be encouraged in the free market. Pretty tough to do when basic anti monopolistic laws aren't enforced. Other computing companies exist out there but do not receive much high profile promotion. I noticed quite a bit of "infighting" lately on the list server. Hey people...take a stand and rather than fight over a "piece of the pie"...make your own pie and get on with it... RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 19:03:56 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 08 Dec 2005 14:03:56 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051208181559.GA2530-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051208181559.GA2530@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:35:21PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that > > live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near > > Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but > > he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. > > It is spelled 'WestTLUG'. But, close enough. :-) And they meet at Dundas/Glen Erin, I believe. BTW, I don't see their meetings posted on gtalug.org. I also had trouble finding them on yahoo groups. Going to groups.yahoo.com and searching for WestLUG found nothing. I had to go to the CLUE LUG listing and click on the home page link and voila, they are on the ca.groups.yahoo.com. Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 19:07:34 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:07:34 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: ; from taa-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 02:26:25PM -0400 References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051208140734.G32719@diamond.ss.org> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 02:26:25PM -0400, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > > Basically, it appears that GTALUG doesn't have a mandate from the TLUG > > > membership to act on it's behalf -- The membership being defined as one > > > being subscribed to the TLUG e-mail list at the time GTALUG was being > > > formed. > > > > > It doesn't matter what your position or anyone elses is. Presently GTALUG runs this mailing list and runs the club. If you feel that they are doing a bad job your recourse of action is to become and member of GTALUG and change it from within. Whining about it on the mailing list isn't going to accomplish anything. > > > > Another options is to leave here and go off and create your own club and mailing list. This has happened several time in the past with mixed success. > > Since the TLUG list members never voted on GTALUG representing them, it > does not matter whether GTALUG runs the list and meeting or not, they > still represent only their own paid members, and not the whole community. > Of course, that is only from the legal point of view. In practice, > companies may choose to believe otherwise. GTALUG has never claimed to represent the people of this list. What GTALUG claims is to run the operation of this list and the meetings. It also claims to provide other service to its members. At the moment those services haven't been determined. > > An alternative to the 6 month free membership of TLUG members in GTALUG > (this option has too many holes), GTALUG may simply propose to TLUG > members that GTALUG becomes the voice of those on the list, whether > they're member or not. I think this is fairly easy to do, require to > changes in GTALUG, and would address the issue that GTALUG was not voted > on by TLUG members. > I don't think the board of directors would even accept this proposal. GTALUG purports to speak for its (paid) members because they are paid members and as such have authorized the club to do and speak on specific topics. If said paid member wish to change what the club is doing they have methods of doing so (including calling a special meeting to remove the board if they desire). The people on this list have not authorized GTALUG to speak on their behalf about any topic, so there is no reason to do so. When I speak to a company about the members I speak about the 100 or so paid members, I don't speak about the 1000 or so people on this list. When specifically asked, I do say that we operate a mailing list for the general public with a thousand or so people on it, some of which are members and most of which are not. I specifically mention that this service is provided free of charge to the community with no requirements of membership. The idea that GTALUG speaks for the people on this list is wrong. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 19:18:34 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:18:34 -0500 Subject: CSIA In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512071733xfee833et4d245990ecd207a4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071458j50df228bhea3404ca1020f118@mail.gmail.com> <20051207182559.G25423@diamond.ss.org> <99a6c38f0512071605l74d1d22aq6aa0441a8e26f21f@mail.gmail.com> <43978712.5090908@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071725g47e74233y7f705e50cbea6bd0@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512071733xfee833et4d245990ecd207a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512081118m6430b747vce7c5f9325a363e6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Woops - the problem with overlapping things is that sometimes my > responses contain some overlap as well. > > In the case of the "average person," there really is no one-stop spot. > I think DCC is a good spot, but it's oriented towards folks who are > somewhat familiar with copyright law already. > > I suspect the CSIA will be similar, but directed more towards software > firms and folks. > > LUG's on the other hand... Well, that's where I'd like to see things > getting tied together - for the benefit of the "average person." Then again, looks like the EFF's already on it: ;D Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:17:23 -0800 From: EFF Press Subject: Media Advisory - Online Rights Canada Online Rights Canada (ORC) will officially launch Friday, December 9, giving Canadians a new voice in critical technology and information policy issues including creation of copyright law, access to information, and freedom from censorship. We will send out a press release tomorrow, but if you are interested in advance information for early Friday publication, please let me know. Thanks - Rebecca ________________________ Rebecca Jeschke Media Relations Coordinator Electronic Frontier Foundation 415-436-9333 ext. 125 rebecca -at eff.org -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 19:30:58 2005 From: ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org (Raymond J. Payne) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:30:58 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace Message-ID: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD95027785E@jack.pcrepairs.com> I think a lot of it comes from the fact it's free. Two major issues because of that. There is no advertising budget to make people want Linux. If you don't already know of Linux, then it's unlikely you'll hear much about it. Since everyone hears about Windows, then that's the way users that don't know much will be inclined to go. The second issue I often run into is that if it's free, it can't be any good. People have a serious mental block with installing a free operating system legally thinking it's a good OS. But the same people will either not upgrade from Windows 95 because they don't want to part with the money, or pirate newer versions. If you're referring to Linux just on the server level, I think it's making quite an impact all things considered. Most small to medium sized companies I know of that have more than a server or two for any purpose all typically seem to either have or be planning Linux based servers. Very few companies I'm aware of personally are using Apple server products. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Rick Tomaschuk Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:35 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) pretty much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? What is needed are more high profile brand name devices which clearly indicate they are powered by Linux OR some other operating system. I'm not an open source advocate to the core. I believe competition should be encouraged in the free market. Pretty tough to do when basic anti monopolistic laws aren't enforced. Other computing companies exist out there but do not receive much high profile promotion. I noticed quite a bit of "infighting" lately on the list server. Hey people...take a stand and rather than fight over a "piece of the pie"...make your own pie and get on with it... RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 20:02:20 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:02:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City Message-ID: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> Update/Correction: (I was informed by the City today) The computers left at the City's Recycling Depots and Environment Days events go to ADL Process Inc. They have the 2005 contract. This company dismantles computers and disposes of the components to scrap metal and plastic dealers. It seems that the computers that the City receives are not of a high enough caliber to be refurbished. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 20:29:54 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:29:54 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134066880.4561.19.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) pretty > much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email > complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that > is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really > possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? Yes, but one would have to become a politician to pull that one off imho. > What is needed are more high profile brand name devices which clearly > indicate they are powered by Linux OR some other operating system. I'm http://www.linuxdevices.com The PDA, router, cell phone, and entertainment center used by idiots who proclaim 'not to be using Linux' may very well have been taken over a couple of years ago already. Even if one disregards the signature of email servers on their messages, often attesting to the fact that they are clueless (for example with their own organization's email being handled by linux servers and open source virus checkers and mail servers, or, if they are large enough, most of their web caching being handled by akmai). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 20:37:40 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:37:40 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134066880.4561.19.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > monopolist Microsoft. I assume you mean the desktop? On the other, hand Linux has a lot of traction in the server market. From small businesses to the biggest I believe there are *lots* of Linux users out there. Let's take over all the servers, the desktops won't be far behind ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:04:16 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:04:16 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134066880.4561.19.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>; from rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 01:34:40PM -0500 References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051208160416.A4237@diamond.ss.org> Linux has pretty much taken over the embedded system market, especially among the cheap ARM based systems. A typical household may have a DVD, a cell phone, and a microwave running linux. Bill On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 01:34:40PM -0500, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) pretty > much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email > complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that > is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really > possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? > > What is needed are more high profile brand name devices which clearly > indicate they are powered by Linux OR some other operating system. I'm > not an open source advocate to the core. I believe competition should be > encouraged in the free market. Pretty tough to do when basic anti > monopolistic laws aren't enforced. Other computing companies exist out > there but do not receive much high profile promotion. I noticed quite a > bit of "infighting" lately on the list server. Hey people...take a stand > and rather than fight over a "piece of the pie"...make your own pie and > get on with it... > RickT > http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:34:55 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:34:55 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <43989994.5010904-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <1134077695.15924.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Linux is still behind Windows on the desktop. The general public perception of computer novices IMHO is still that Windows is the only game in town. When I say novices I mean non graphics, non computer literate anything. Look at CNN which could be using Macromedia, Quicktime, MPG, chooses to use Microsoft. Why? I don't know. Lou Dobbs on Moneyline is always shaking his head in favor of the underdog. Some perception actually exists that Microsoft is the underdog in the US over big business as we used to know it (IBM). RickT On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 15:37 -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > > I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > > the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > > invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > > and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > > monopolist Microsoft. > > I assume you mean the desktop? > > On the other, hand Linux has a lot of traction in the server market. > From small businesses to the biggest I believe there are *lots* of > Linux users out there. > > Let's take over all the servers, the desktops won't be far behind ;-) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:45:19 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:45:19 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134077695.15924.8.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> <1134077695.15924.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <4398A96F.6050003@utoronto.ca> I can't remember where exactly I heard it (some linux radio podcast of some sort back in the summer) but the idea of coolness definitely enters as one reason that Linux is having a hard time catching on. For a lot of people (specifically friends, family, professors) who have upgraded to Windows XP, their first response was how cool it seemed comared to 98/2000. Mac users -- same thing. But apart from being cool within a rather closed (or small, whichever you prefer) community i.e. Slackware cooler than X distro etc., Linux is not regarded as something cool to use or do with your computer. For people who purchase a computer with Windows XP preinstalled, what is/has been done to make Linux cool enough to get them to take notice? It seems that this area needs some attention! There has got to be a reason to make people take notice, and sadly, apart from the great features that we take for granted, I can't imagine many users actually caring all that much. I felt the need to chime in on this, but that's about all -- mostly just rambling musings. Jamon Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > Linux is still behind Windows on the desktop. The general public > perception of computer novices IMHO is still that Windows is the only > game in town. When I say novices I mean non graphics, non computer > literate anything. Look at CNN which could be using Macromedia, > Quicktime, MPG, chooses to use Microsoft. Why? I don't know. Lou Dobbs > on Moneyline is always shaking his head in favor of the underdog. Some > perception actually exists that Microsoft is the underdog in the US over > big business as we used to know it (IBM). > RickT > > On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 15:37 -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > >>Rick Tomaschuk wrote: >> >> >>>I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after >>>the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely >>>invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple >>>and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted >>>monopolist Microsoft. >> >>I assume you mean the desktop? >> >>On the other, hand Linux has a lot of traction in the server market. >> From small businesses to the biggest I believe there are *lots* of >>Linux users out there. >> >>Let's take over all the servers, the desktops won't be far behind ;-) >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:49:20 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:49:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City In-Reply-To: <4398914C.1010708-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <4398AA60.6080102@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > Update/Correction: (I was informed by the City today) > > The computers left at the City's Recycling Depots and Environment Days > events go to ADL Process Inc. They have the 2005 contract. This > company dismantles computers and disposes of the components to scrap > metal and plastic dealers. It seems that the computers that the City > receives are not of a high enough caliber to be refurbished. Thanks for the update. I would challenge that assertion, for it may assume that the refurbished computers may need to be capable of running recent versions of Windows. Maybe it is worth asking what they consider to be "high enough calibre". In such cases it's easier to toss than to reuse -- especially if they don't know that modern Linux can work on older, slower PCs. Also consider that there are a lot of PC parts that are neither suitable for scrap metal or plastics recycling (circuit boards, hard drives, etc.) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:04:16 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:04:16 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398A96F.6050003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> <1134077695.15924.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398A96F.6050003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1134079456.15924.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Chic is definitely where its at in retail. Nothing like a good fad to get a retail fire going. I think video and multimedia are still a weakness in Linux distros. Media player will rip a CD without any effort into an mp3. Look at South Korea's recent ruling and past antitrust rulings concerning Media Player. The future will include more video rather than text. If the lack of great video isn't addressed Linux could be at a great disadvantage over Windows. Some think connectivity is everything. I could care less if my fridge can talk to my car. I wish my cell phone would work properly without an external antenna when I leave the city. RickT On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 16:45 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I can't remember where exactly I heard it (some linux radio podcast of > some sort back in the summer) but the idea of coolness definitely enters > as one reason that Linux is having a hard time catching on. For a lot of > people (specifically friends, family, professors) who have upgraded to > Windows XP, their first response was how cool it seemed comared to > 98/2000. Mac users -- same thing. But apart from being cool within a > rather closed (or small, whichever you prefer) community i.e. Slackware > cooler than X distro etc., Linux is not regarded as something cool to > use or do with your computer. > > For people who purchase a computer with Windows XP preinstalled, what > is/has been done to make Linux cool enough to get them to take notice? > It seems that this area needs some attention! There has got to be a > reason to make people take notice, and sadly, apart from the great > features that we take for granted, I can't imagine many users actually > caring all that much. > > I felt the need to chime in on this, but that's about all -- mostly just > rambling musings. > > Jamon > > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > Linux is still behind Windows on the desktop. The general public > > perception of computer novices IMHO is still that Windows is the only > > game in town. When I say novices I mean non graphics, non computer > > literate anything. Look at CNN which could be using Macromedia, > > Quicktime, MPG, chooses to use Microsoft. Why? I don't know. Lou Dobbs > > on Moneyline is always shaking his head in favor of the underdog. Some > > perception actually exists that Microsoft is the underdog in the US over > > big business as we used to know it (IBM). > > RickT > > > > On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 15:37 -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > >>Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > >> > >> > >>>I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > >>>the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > >>>invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > >>>and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > >>>monopolist Microsoft. > >> > >>I assume you mean the desktop? > >> > >>On the other, hand Linux has a lot of traction in the server market. > >> From small businesses to the biggest I believe there are *lots* of > >>Linux users out there. > >> > >>Let's take over all the servers, the desktops won't be far behind ;-) > >>-- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:06:20 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:06:20 -0500 Subject: Drupal was Re: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re:Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: <43986CAC.1070705-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> <43986CAC.1070705@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 12/8/05, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Yahoo Groups also offers this functionality. Unfortunately, Yahoo Groups has the (typical) result that everything that is contributed is, ultimately, owned and controlled by Yahoo! If they choose to change direction, you're pretty screwed. If they decide to have more ads, such that it gets a bunch of people exercised over it, you're screwed. If their behind-the-scenes backup doesn't work out, you're screwed. None of these things are necessarily going to happen, but the set of risks rise more or less proportionately to the LACK of control you can have over the management of the site. "Because it's free" may be part of the reason that Linux has gotten popular, but "because it provides us freedom" is another important part, and "because WE get to choose" is also important to keep in mind :-). I'd much rather see there be a bunch of places hosting web content, and a bunch of places hosting software projects (ala SourceForge PLUS COMPETITORS) than see things watered down by "There Can Be Only One..." -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:11:51 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:11:51 -0500 Subject: Drupal was Re: The benefits of having an incorporation [was Re: [TLUG]: Incorporation redux] In-Reply-To: References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <4397839A.4040807@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512071718i42de9154icc85bf2849dc5c1c@mail.gmail.com> <4397919B.1050900@telly.org> <43986CAC.1070705@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4398AFA7.6070704@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >"Because it's free" may be part of the reason that Linux has gotten >popular, but "because it provides us freedom" is another important >part, and "because WE get to choose" is also important to keep in mind >:-). > > "Come for the price. Stay for the freedom." I don't know where I first heard this, but IMO it's a nice slogan for open source. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:31:00 2005 From: stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Stewart Sinclair) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:31:00 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > >> I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after >> the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely >> invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple >> and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the >> convicted >> monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) >> pretty >> much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email >> complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that >> is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really >> possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? > > > Yes, but one would have to become a politician to pull that one off imho. > Most politicians are lawyers. Haven't you noticed? When the engineers and mechanics start to take politics seriously we see some real changes. Politics is highly skilled trade. But the vast majority have been conned into the idea that you don't need any preparation for it. It can be learned but you have to have the attitude toward winning and loosing of a professional gambler toward money (it's just another tool to make a living). The cards or dice of what ever are just another trade. When engineers and mechanics can approach politics without fear and without personal ego needs there will be real changes. Until then the whole show will continue to go to hell in a bucket. S. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:55:14 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:55:14 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051208175514.70851f94.tleslie@tcn.net> On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:29:54 +0200 (IST) Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > > I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > > the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely > > invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple > > and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted > > monopolist Microsoft. The industry rag Computing Canada (also CDN) pretty > > much ignores Linux and focuses on piracy. I sent their editor an email > > complaining about their support for an illegal monopoly. I suppose that > > is where their advertising $$ are coming from. Is it really > > possible to steal from lawyers and thieves? I feel the same way, but usually perk myself up when I then think of the much higher penetration everywhere else but USA/Canada, i.e. all South Korean schools go to linux (if i remember correctly) thus producing a HUGE linux population as they get through the system and graduate. China perhaps similar, and germany ... etc, etc ..? I have seen numbers as low as 2% worldwide desktop use for linux, and numbers as high a 12%, but regardless Linux on the desktop is bigger then OSX on the desktop worldwide, so thats good news, that its the second most popular desktop out of the three "biggies". I think alot of countries outside of US/CND will adopt it very heavily and in the end US/CDN will finally turn. With cellphone, tivo/pvr's, TV sets, pda's also using linux, i think it might be possible for the "install" base of linux to out number the "install" base of all MS OS products in as soon as 3 years, but for the average home desktop being linux, i am guessing it might be 2012 before linux out numbers Microshaft, at least based on current trends. but that isn't all that far away. this MIT 100$ portable dream just doesnt seem to die, and thus getting closer to reality, man 100M 100$US portable computer per year running linux, that can tilt the MS use % really quickly! i can't remember, whats it estimated at, 600-750M pc currently in use world wide? 100M units a year via MIT project, 100's M linux units as asian countries rollout, hey its possible! i can only hope!! on a totally seperate subject .... http://www.projectblackdog.com/ totally kicks ass, i can only imagine what one will have for linux power (on their belt) in 2 years!!! maybe when you go in an buy a 2BG usb flash key from futureshop 2-3 years from now (for 50-80$), it will come with a low ampdraw cpu and linux onboard just as a free side extra, think of it, 2-3 years from now all usb memory stick come will linux built in, as a management and optional interactive system!! not so far fetched. They have a Geode now at 1W power consumption for a 400Mhz processor. A backdog , mass produce could be 50$ two years from now (less the biometrics too). -tl > > Yes, but one would have to become a politician to pull that one off > imho. > > > What is needed are more high profile brand name devices which clearly > > indicate they are powered by Linux OR some other operating system. I'm > > > http://www.linuxdevices.com > > The PDA, router, cell phone, and entertainment center used by idiots who > proclaim 'not to be using Linux' may very well have been taken over a > couple of years ago already. Even if one disregards the signature of > email servers on their messages, often attesting to the fact that they > are clueless (for example with their own organization's email being > handled by linux servers and open source virus checkers and mail > servers, or, if they are large enough, most of their web caching being > handled by akmai). > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 00:44:19 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:44:19 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398A96F.6050003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> <1134077695.15924.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398A96F.6050003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4398D363.9080608@gmail.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > I can't remember where exactly I heard it (some linux radio podcast of > some sort back in the summer) but the idea of coolness definitely enters > as one reason that Linux is having a hard time catching on. For a lot of > people (specifically friends, family, professors) who have upgraded to > Windows XP, their first response was how cool it seemed comared to > 98/2000. Mac users -- same thing. But apart from being cool within a > rather closed (or small, whichever you prefer) community i.e. Slackware > cooler than X distro etc., Linux is not regarded as something cool to > use or do with your computer. I disagree. I am so tired of XP that I love when I boot into Ubuntu's Gnome Display Manager, and am able to try so many different themes, and modify the taskbar to show anything I please! :-) -Steve. -- Thunderbird :: Reclaim your Inbox :: getthunderbird.com Ubuntu :: Linux for Human Beings :: ubuntulinux.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 00:54:56 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:54:56 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398D363.9080608-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43989994.5010904@georgetown.wehave.net> <1134077695.15924.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398A96F.6050003@utoronto.ca> <4398D363.9080608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4398D5E0.7050109@utoronto.ca> Steve wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> I can't remember where exactly I heard it (some linux radio podcast of >> some sort back in the summer) but the idea of coolness definitely >> enters as one reason that Linux is having a hard time catching on. For >> a lot of people (specifically friends, family, professors) who have >> upgraded to Windows XP, their first response was how cool it seemed >> comared to 98/2000. Mac users -- same thing. But apart from being cool >> within a rather closed (or small, whichever you prefer) community i.e. >> Slackware cooler than X distro etc., Linux is not regarded as >> something cool to use or do with your computer. > > > I disagree. I am so tired of XP that I love when I boot into Ubuntu's > Gnome Display Manager, and am able to try so many different themes, and > modify the taskbar to show anything I please! :-) > > -Steve. As do I! I'm rather a fan of the polymer theme with glass buttons in kde myself. But my point is, though you and I as a part of an almost hermetically sealed community are aware of the neat effects that our respective WMs provide (look at the M$ ads on many Linux sites for proof of this), and the nifty apps available to us, for most users those programs, features, and effects are laregely irrelevant. What I am suggesting is that it is necessary to *find* a way to make them relevant as one of numerous strategies to capture more market share of the desktop world. If Jobs and his team can do it for Mac, just think what our global group of geeks with a much more vast pool of resources (time and skill) can do. I too am tired of XP, but that doesn't mean grandma or her recepies are -- she has no reason to be if she has no experience with anything els ;) Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 01:12:08 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 03:12:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398B424.1080308-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Stewart Sinclair wrote: >> Yes, but one would have to become a politician to pull that one off imho. >> > Most politicians are lawyers. Haven't you noticed? They must have moved on to the next (lower) level then. > When engineers and mechanics can approach politics without fear and without > personal ego needs there will be real changes. Until then the whole show > will continue to go to hell in a bucket. Imho that would require the unwashed masses (of voters) to replace belief (in false promises repeated over and over) with rationality. But that, in turn, would require the unwashed masses to stop being unwashed masses. And *that* would require an educational system that would educate them in this direction. I can see a problem here (and I can tell you that the communist education system used in former Eastern European countries, which tried to do this up to a point, was a failure out of this point of view). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 02:29:23 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:29:23 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4398EC03.1000402@istop.com> Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Stewart Sinclair wrote: > >> When engineers and mechanics can approach politics without fear and >> without personal ego needs there will be real changes. Until then the >> whole show will continue to go to hell in a bucket. > > > Imho that would require the unwashed masses (of voters) to replace > belief (in false promises repeated over and over) with rationality. But > that, in turn, would require the unwashed masses to stop being unwashed > masses. And *that* would require an educational system that would > educate them in this direction. I can see a problem here (and I can tell > you that the communist education system used in former Eastern European > countries, which tried to do this up to a point, was a failure out of > this point of view). Not that this discussion is about Linux mostly, anymore. But I enjoy it. From which country is your younger experience, Peter? I am asking just out of curiosity, though I know that most immigration to your present country is from Russia, perhaps Ukraine. I do have a lot of sympathy to people from these countries, close to my Poland (I would not take wife from there otherwise). I do not think that the educational system in East-European countries, indoctrination there, was a "failure". The system simply last too short to achieve its goals. It would need to continue for a few more generations. The bolshevik revolutions we had about only 3-4 generations ago. And yes, that was not enough to change the people. Still there are open minded people there who believe more in the history as described by they grand grand parents than in the official versions. But there are no many open minded people who still have great granparents alive left. The Soviet society has been entirely changed by the system. It has been changed also in my Poland, the country that did always preserve some sort of independance and some political freedom. Average people in post-communist countries are different than people living in so called western hemisphere. I would not dare to say that they are different in an entirely wrong way - thats not the case. I would rather want to emphersise that people here can learn something from them as well (silly will attack me, but I will repeat: the communism was not an entirely wrong social system; Like the system we live in is not entirely "good"). Though I have a huge sympathy to Russians as people, I can not not see that their brains have been washed out. Such a simple fact: they do NOT know their own history. They do not know much about politics. Not that the situation here, in Canada or USA, is much better: how can young people aquire a deeper understanding of socio-political development when they are tought only the history of their own countries at school? Actually exactly the same took place in the former USRR, where they learned about the history of communist party only. Regards, zb. > Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 02:57:03 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:57:03 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398EC03.1000402-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> <4398EC03.1000402@istop.com> Message-ID: > Not that this discussion is about Linux mostly, anymore. But I enjoy it. > > From which country is your younger experience, Peter? I am asking just out of > curiosity, though I know that most immigration to your present country is I hail from Romania. > I do not think that the educational system in East-European countries, > indoctrination there, was a "failure". The system simply last too short to > achieve its goals. It would need to continue for a few more generations. The Maybe I did not make myself clear. I was saying, that the problem of electing politicians instead of technocrats into government, based on their empty promises, could be cured by an educated public. The education would have to tech such things as white lies, pork (spending), basic statistics and other unpleasant truths. The ex-communist education systems *did* teach such things (obviously about the west, which was bad, bad, bad and shown as a negative example), but it did not connect this with the discrepancy between one's own car and clothes and those of the well-travelled comrades in their Gucci shoes and Mercedeses, nor with the fact that none of them had been elected by anybody we knew or trusted. In this, it has failed ;-). It is very unlikely that you will ever catch me saying something very good about the communist system, due to my personal experiences. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 03:34:47 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:34:47 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> <4398EC03.1000402@istop.com> Message-ID: <1134099287.4145.8.camel@spot1.localhost.com> What I really take offense to is Ballmer/Gates calling Linux communist and unAmerican...like hijacking the entire economy (US and Canada) with their crap software sold to an unsuspecting public as a completed work is all American. I know many good Americans who simply not familiar with the technology to make and informed decision. They are too busy working to support their families and trust the legal system to look out for them. Now that the poor suckers have bought into the lies they have to feed the voracious machine large bundles of cash $$ to keep it going. This crap is what our people are in Iraq fighting and dying for. To keep scum like the above safe. Stretches my mind... RickT On Fri, 2005-12-09 at 04:57 +0200, Peter wrote: > > Not that this discussion is about Linux mostly, anymore. But I enjoy it. > > > > From which country is your younger experience, Peter? I am asking just out of > > curiosity, though I know that most immigration to your present country is > > I hail from Romania. > > > I do not think that the educational system in East-European countries, > > indoctrination there, was a "failure". The system simply last too short to > > achieve its goals. It would need to continue for a few more generations. The > > Maybe I did not make myself clear. I was saying, that the problem of > electing politicians instead of technocrats into government, based on > their empty promises, could be cured by an educated public. The > education would have to tech such things as white lies, pork (spending), > basic statistics and other unpleasant truths. The ex-communist education > systems *did* teach such things (obviously about the west, which was > bad, bad, bad and shown as a negative example), but it did not > connect this with the discrepancy between one's own car and clothes and > those of the well-travelled comrades in their Gucci shoes and > Mercedeses, nor with the fact that none of them had been elected by > anybody we knew or trusted. In this, it has failed ;-). It is very > unlikely that you will ever catch me saying something very good about > the communist system, due to my personal experiences. > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 03:39:05 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:39:05 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134066880.4561.19.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> Rick Tomaschuk wrote: >I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after >the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely >invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple >and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the convicted >monopolist Microsoft. > Hi Rick, I understand what you're saying but I can't completely agree with it for a couple of reasons. 1) Since you're talking Apple, you seem to be talking about the desktop. Please keep in mind that Linux has only really been usable by non-geeks on the desktop for a few years. It's only now, with post-version-1 releases of Firefox, OpenOffice and Thunderbird, that the open source desktop has been really suitable for non-technical users. What's happened in the last 10 years is that Linux has indeed been building a reputation for stability, cost effectiveness and reliability, but that's been mainly on the back end. Major vendors such as Red Hat and pre-Novell SuSE produced Linux desktops more as a courtesy and a tool to sell servers rather than competitive products in their own right. Arguably, today it is a new generation of (with the notable exceptions of Mandriva and Red Flag) Debian-derived products such as Linspire, Xandros, Knoppix and Ubuntu which have concentrated on the desktop experience. These companies are babes within an entire field that's still immature in both technical, business and channel-building aspects. So while you say the Linux world has been around for a decade, IMO it's more accurate to say that the Linux desktop has only really been a mass-marketable product for less than a few years. And even so it's still very much a business-oriented system, far behind Windows and the Mac in areas of home multimedia and games. Sure there are embedded Linux components such as the open-source Tivo clones, but those can grow in popularity and still perception is that "Linux" isn't getting to desktop PCs. 2) "The market" is not just North America, which is probably the slowest region on earth to be adopting open source. The fight is toughest here because our region is the one that exports most of the world's proprietary systems software. Other areas of the world import their operating systems, providing significant macro-economic and self-sufficiency incentive to consider open source. The Munich win came in large part because the city government thought they were buying a homegrown OS (oops!). You wouldn't share the same views of invisibility in big chunks of Europe, Asia and South America. Countries like China, Bulgaria, Malaysia and Brazil are using Linux to create domestic systems software infrastructures, open source is practically becoming a matter of public policy. The trend is changing here too, but this is the enemy's home turf; the battles will be bloodier because there's more at stake. Witness the filthy politics at play simply because the government of Massachusetts wants to enforce open standards for documents. This crap simply wouldn't be tolerated in most other countries today; indeed, the arrogance of the proprietary vendors at play in Mass would work strongly against them in most other countries. In the case of most proprietary systems software, the primary market is the US and then export versions are made. Despite the major presence and influence of Red Hat and Novell, this cycle does not extend to the world of open source. Note that the three largest Linux technical conferences each year are held outside the US (OLS, LinuxTag, linux.conf.au). Internationalization isn't a feature, it's a fundamental component. 3) Linux is making inroads across the board, not just on the desktop. The OS is making its way into some of the world's fastest supercomputers, and some of the most ubiquitous embedded devices. In China and Europe there are now Linux-powered smartphones that compete head-on with Microsoft and Symbian, and the new owner of PalmSource is committed to evolve that OS into a Linux platform. Major players such as Sharp and Motorola make well-known Linux-based devices that aren't sold on this side of the Pacific, where "Linux inside" doesn't have the appeal that it does in Asia. That's hard to compare to the Mac, which has traditionally been a single type of device (though Apple has been trying to get into server space now that OS X is based on a more unix-ish platform). 4) Personally, I think the Linux "brand" (which is really a more generic term encompassing a lot of non-Linux-kernel applications) is doing just fine, given its youth and maturity in both technical and business areas. Linux desktops have quietly surpassed Apple as the number 2 desktop worldwide, despite their lack of commercial application support. But some people just can't do without their Photoshop (or Quake, or Quicken, etc) and that will continue to be problematic so long as Wine continues to track a moving target. To people who see computers as a tool rather than useful in their own right, the OS is far less relevant than the application. It's no coincidence that in its most recent promotion campaign for Windows XP, Microsoft emphasizes not the features of the OS but the range of third-party apps that run on it (see www.windows.ca). Sure there are a ton of apps in open source, but we're still at a maturity state where most of these apps are more comfortable to people who like computers. This may change, but maybe it won't and we'll just have to live with that; it's not the end of the world. Linux may become more visible, but that doesn't make it will be the best answer for all need. And inertia is still a formidable obstacle. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 03:52:57 2005 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:52:57 -0500 Subject: TLUG and government grants In-Reply-To: <20051208093019.A32719-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051203235643.GB2383@node1.opengeometry.net> <43948066.5030608@telly.org> <20051205195426.GB2567@node1.opengeometry.net> <4394F806.4060803@telly.org> <20051207151955.B25423@diamond.ss.org> <439750D2.2000601@yahoo.ca> <20051207175832.E25423@diamond.ss.org> <4398265A.5060505@yahoo.ca> <20051208093019.A32719@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <4398FF99.9050009@yahoo.ca> On 12/8/2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Whining about it on the mailing list isn't going to accomplish > anything. Really Bill, I don't see anyone whining. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 04:00:30 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:00:30 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398FC59.5030905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> Message-ID: <1134100830.4145.20.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Replies below. Cheers! On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 22:39 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi Rick, > > 1) Since you're talking Apple, you seem to be talking about the desktop. > Please keep in mind that Linux has only really been usable by non-geeks > on the desktop for a few years. It's only now, with post-version-1 > releases of Firefox, OpenOffice and Thunderbird, that the open source > desktop has been really suitable for non-technical users. What's > happened in the last 10 years is that Linux has indeed been building a > reputation for stability, cost effectiveness and reliability, but that's > been mainly on the back end. Major vendors such as Red Hat and > pre-Novell SuSE produced Linux desktops more as a courtesy and a tool to > sell servers rather than competitive products in their own right. My issue doesn't rest solely with Linux. I was setting up FreeBSD servers before Linux began to evolve. Word Perfect 5.0 on DOS was fantastic. Along come MS (like a disease) and sweeps everyone into the hype that GUI is better. It could have been but it wasn't a mature product. Quite frankly it was garbage (Win 3.0, 3.1, NT 3.51, 4.0) and I took a break from the industry so I wouldn't have to install it anymore. Tough to look a customer in the eye and sell him/her garbage...and the the hell of having to support it afterwords. > 2) "The market" is not just North America, which is probably the slowest > region on earth to be adopting open source. The fight is toughest here > because our region is the one that exports most of the world's > proprietary systems software. Other areas of the world import their > operating systems, providing significant macro-economic and > self-sufficiency incentive to consider open source. The Munich win came > in large part because the city government thought they were buying a > homegrown OS (oops!). I live and work in Canada and the US. I'm not really that interested in the rest of the world, Jupiter, Mars or Pluto either. May not be politically correct but continent hopping is not my bag. > You wouldn't share the same views of invisibility in big chunks of > Europe, Asia and South America. Countries like China, Bulgaria, Malaysia > and Brazil are using Linux to create domestic systems software > infrastructures, open source is practically becoming a matter of public > policy. Glad to hear it. > The trend is changing here too, but this is the enemy's home turf; the > battles will be bloodier because there's more at stake. Witness the > filthy politics at play simply because the government of Massachusetts > wants to enforce open standards for documents. This crap simply wouldn't > be tolerated in most other countries today; indeed, the arrogance of the > proprietary vendors at play in Mass would work strongly against them in > most other countries. > 4) Personally, I think the Linux "brand" (which is really a more generic > term encompassing a lot of non-Linux-kernel applications) is doing just > fine, given its youth and maturity in both technical and business areas. > Linux desktops have quietly surpassed Apple as the number 2 desktop > worldwide, despite their lack of commercial application support. But > some people just can't do without their Photoshop (or Quake, or Quicken, > etc) and that will continue to be problematic so long as Wine continues > to track a moving target. > - Evan Points well taken. Keep up the good work Evan. Regards, Rick Tomaschuk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 04:42:02 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:42:02 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> Message-ID: <43990B1A.9040801@utoronto.ca> Peter wrote: > Imho that would require the unwashed masses (of voters) to replace > belief (in false promises repeated over and over) with rationality. But > that, in turn, would require the unwashed masses to stop being unwashed > masses. And *that* would require an educational system that would > educate them in this direction. Careful here. Your contempt for the "unwashed masses" is shared by elites of all stripes be they of the left or right. > I can see a problem here (and I can tell > you that the communist education system used in former Eastern European > countries, which tried to do this up to a point, was a failure out of > this point of view). > The collapse of an ideology with little bloodshed points maybe to the success of the educational system? I dunno just my 2 cents. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 04:55:31 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:55:31 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video Message-ID: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more coverage :-) Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video? I want an ATX, not miniATX, because I need the extra expansion slots. Besides, I already have an old ATX case with power supply. I want built in video because I don't want to buy another video card. I want to play with VNC and run a headless box. If I can't find one (or one cheap enough), I'll break down and buy a video card but that is the final resort. Thanks in advance. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 04:57:56 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:57:56 -0500 Subject: Totally at my wits end, i need help! or point to a place that can help! Message-ID: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie@tcn.net> This is one bitch of a problem. I have a product, a boot DVD, runs linux, used by companies, and generally works fine. Now I have it for CAA. Agents answering call for CAA use a linux system from a boot DVD. 90% of them work perfect. 100% work perfect in LINUX. All of them use rdesktop into a MS windows terminal service environment (win2003 server). In the microsoft desktop, maybe 3% have experienced "invisible text" when typing into various things in the Windows2003 server apps. 10% when running a particular MFC generated custom CAA app, they get "invisible text" or they get "wonky text". They can type and see nothing printing on the screen, but its there in the "input box", and if the mouse over the invisible text, as highlighted mouse-over, the text show 100% fine!! Or they type and the text runs together and overlaps something fierce, but highlight over it and its 100% fine!!!! now for the most part i solved the problems up until now by suggesting a different video card. In all cases the boot DVD didnt have support for, for example Ati Xpress 200, etc. Once using a card that was detected, the problem goes away. Its odd thou, that the apps in Linux: browser, large flash soft-phone, etc, all work fine under the fall-through VESA mode. this is so odd because, yes in the end , i can fix it by making sure the users computer has a supported video card, but thats a nightmare, especially when you do a distro, and you don't know whats around the corner for new cards (chip sets). But whats also weird is for the most part, apps in Win2003 server, standard supplied MS apps like notepad, Internet Explorer, File Explorer, etc, the fonts are all clear and visiable when at the SAME TIME the custom app shows this distortion or invisibility font issue. I am baffed. I am wondering if there is some change i could do on the windows side, something to do with font setting, but i know jack about windows. What i don't understand is why it happens, ESPECIALLY given that you highlight the text thats invisible, or wonky, and just by highlighting it, it makes it perfect!!! i have tried altering monitor size parameters in the xorg.conf so as to alter DPI choice for fonts, i've tried different resolutions 1024x768 1280x1024, nothing works, however 640x480 or 800x600 sometimes works, but its to small for use. I don't know how WTS or rdesktop works, i mean, taking it from front to back, the custom app on the MS win2003 server uses a MFC library and renders a font, at that time, does Win2003 do something? do a calculation of true-type, or whatever? then the font gets sent over WTS protocol (in rdesktop), and i assume its a protocol that says here is my font letter and info about the font and size, and linux X.org (or desktop system) does a best fit calculation? but why sometimes totally invisable? and why ALWAYS you mouse over it to highlight it, and like magic it shows, if I don't get a fix to this, this could be my first ever failure to fix an issue i have had with Linux, but then again? maybe Linux isn't totaly to blame, maybe, since the problem seems to primarily happen with this custom app run on the Win2003 server, maybe the coded it such a way that it uses odd ball font selection, and its a bugger to translate over a remote type connection. i am just wondering if there is any useful community to post this issue to (aside from TLUG of course!) , so it can hit people knowledgable in this area of WTS, fonts, and such, hopefully someone in the TLUG may have an idea - I can only hope. I am running out of options here :( I have already exhausted the rdesktop community resources. And a posting to a USENET linux group, that probably not the most appropriate area, but maybe i might have to. You know your screwed when you google the hell out of a problem and get very little results of people running in to same issue. Since the occurance is rare to begin with maybe not even 10%, maybe more like 5% in the end, I have thought to try and see if the problem would occur in a MS to MS environment, i.e. ruling out Linux, but the task of getting that test suite set up, given it might occur very rare, isnt first on my list. I thought of VNC, but that doesn't do multiple sessions like WTS does. I might try Citrix but get a load of this, I have left my name and number twice with the Citric office in Toronto, even express great interest in potentially using their product, which by the way is expensive as hell, and they just dont call me back, unbelievable.! on that note, any one have access to a Citrix MetaFrame server on Windows that i could dump this app onto, and see if citrix would solve my problem .. i can't even get hold of Citrix to ask for that :( -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 06:24:58 2005 From: transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Kamran) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:24:58 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398FC59.5030905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> Message-ID: <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > >> I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after >> the last 10 years of working to promote Linux (it) is still largely >> invisible in the market place especially when compared to the Apple >> and their pirated lookalike copy called Windows produced by the >> convicted monopolist Microsoft. >> > Hi Rick, > > > > To people who see computers as a tool rather than useful in their own > right, the OS is far less relevant than the application. It's no > coincidence that in its most recent promotion campaign for Windows XP, > Microsoft emphasizes not the features of the OS but the range of > third-party apps that run on it (see www.windows.ca). Sure there are a > ton of apps in open source, but we're still at a maturity state where > most of these apps are more comfortable to people who like computers. > This may change, but maybe it won't and we'll just have to live with > that; it's not the end of the world. Linux may become more visible, but > that doesn't make it will be the best answer for all need. And inertia > is still a formidable obstacle. > > - Evan > The last paragraph says it all. An OS is only as useful the applications it runs. To the vast majority of desktop users a computer is just a tool. As for the notion that flavours of Linux on the desktop are spreading like wild fire outside of North America nothing could be further from the truth. Microsoft for the most part is content to let countries who can't afford to purchase their software pirate it at will. I have been to countries where almost no one pays for Microsoft software and Microsoft is content to let this happen. I doubt Microsoft would even sue a home user in North America for a pirated copy of their software. The last figure I remember from CAST was that the piracy rate in Canada was something like %30. Imagine if Microsoft was to start suing users in North America for illegal software. I gather Linux on the desktop would jump in a matter of weeks to be a significant competitor to Microsoft on the desktop. That's where the problems start for Microsoft because soon you'll have heck of a lot of people bothering companies to make drivers, apps etc for Linux. Imagine what would happen in countries if Microsoft tried to actually make people, who can barely afford computers a generation behind what we use, pay for Microsoft software. All Microsoft cares about is getting people hooked on their software however they can. Furthermore Bill Gates is doing a great PR job in India. He made the headlines a couple of years back by donating over $100 million USD of his personal wealth to India's poor. Yesterday Bill Gates announced that Microsoft will invest $1.7 billion USD over the next 3-4 years in India. India, whose your daddy? Next time you travel to some far off place ask the locals what they think of Bill Gates. The best quote I heard was "He revolutionized the Internet/Computer World." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 11:08:48 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:08:48 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <43990B1A.9040801-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398B424.1080308@eol.ca> <43990B1A.9040801@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Peter wrote: > >> Imho that would require the unwashed masses (of voters) to replace belief >> (in false promises repeated over and over) with rationality. But that, in >> turn, would require the unwashed masses to stop being unwashed masses. And >> *that* would require an educational system that would educate them in this >> direction. > > Careful here. Your contempt for the "unwashed masses" is shared by elites of > all stripes be they of the left or right. It is not contempt, it is irony. Sorry if misunderstood. >> I can see a problem here (and I can tell you that the communist education >> system used in former Eastern European countries, which tried to do this up >> to a point, was a failure out of this point of view). >> > The collapse of an ideology with little bloodshed points maybe to the success > of the educational system? > > I dunno just my 2 cents. Each sees what he is looking for, when looking hard enough. The collapse was not bloodless in many cases, and it was not in the case that I have witnessed personally. Worse, the backlash, the reaction to communism, was proportional to the amount of repression it represented. This means that national socialist movements are again legitimate in those countries, in despite of previous experiences in the domain. This is what I call a failure of the education system, together with the unbearably long time it took for the shedding of communist power. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 13:59:59 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:59:59 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399233A.3030900-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 01:24:58AM -0500 References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> > software. The last figure I remember from CAST was that the piracy rate > in Canada was something like %30. Imagine if Microsoft was to start > suing users in North America for illegal software. I gather Linux on I doubt piracy of windows is that low. I don't know a single person that has paid for windows or Office and many of them run their businesses on these products. It is one reason why I refuse to support Windows customers. They simply expect you to help them pirate software that runs on windows as part of the support contract. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 14:23:56 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:23:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209085959.A8035-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> My wife refused for a long time to use Linux on her computer, having been completely traumatized by the Unix command line. However, when Microsoft changed the file formats so that Office couldn't read anything and she was faced with spending many hundreds of dollars on the latest version of Office, she agreed that Open Office was a better bargain - regardless of the learning curve. And, as Evan pointed out, the desktop is now at the point where it's very user friendly. I've noticed lately that she rarely reverts to the Windows partition at all. Peter >> software. The last figure I remember from CAST was that the piracy rate >> in Canada was something like %30. Imagine if Microsoft was to start >> suing users in North America for illegal software. I gather Linux on > > I doubt piracy of windows is that low. I don't know a single person that > has paid for windows or Office and many of them run their businesses on > these products. > > It is one reason why I refuse to support Windows customers. They simply > expect you to help them pirate software that runs on windows as part of > the support contract. > > Bill > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 14:39:57 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:39:57 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >My wife refused for a long time to use Linux on her computer, having been >completely traumatized by the Unix command line. However, when Microsoft >changed the file formats so that Office couldn't read anything and she was >faced with spending many hundreds of dollars on the latest version of >Office, she agreed that Open Office was a better bargain - regardless of >the learning curve. And, as Evan pointed out, the desktop is now at the >point where it's very user friendly. > > Inertia is a very powerful obstacle, arguably more powerful than Microsoft's marketing or technical issues. People have career investments in doing things a certain way (and decision-makers have had more time to go down one specific path than their underlings). More often than not, the complaint "Linux doesn't work properly" really means "Linux doesn't work the way I'm used to". It's not enough for open source alternatives to be better than proprietary counterparts. They have to be compellingly better in order to get people to change direction. This is often simplified during update cycles, when the cost of sticking with the chosen path itself requires new expense in software, training and support upgrades. The task is also made easier when the proprietary version is badly botched -- and yet look at the hard time Firefox has had getting a significant market share despite all of IE's well publicized security holes. We are up against senior IT staff with political and social turfs to protect, asses to cover, aversion to change, and a reluctance to implement technology that new employees will likely know better than their longtime managers. Given all that, combined with the lack of marketing muscle of "Linux Inc", and I don't think the pace of growth is anything to be ashamed of. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 14:45:13 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:45:13 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399233A.3030900-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1134139513.4137.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> On Fri, 2005-12-09 at 01:24 -0500, Kamran wrote: snip > time you travel to some far off place ask the locals what they think of > Bill Gates. The best quote I heard was "He revolutionized the > Internet/Computer World." Or rather "He has eliminated the possibility of you or the average North American to pursue a career in computer programming" I hope you have as much respect for old Bill when you are applying for a job as a Wal Mart Associate. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 15:06:19 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:06:19 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4398FC59.5030905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> Message-ID: <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 22:39 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > >I travel a lot through the US and Canada and am frustrated that after > Hi Rick, > I understand what you're saying but I can't completely agree with it for > a couple of reasons. > Europe, Asia and South America. Countries like China, Bulgaria, Malaysia > and Brazil are using Linux to create domestic systems software > infrastructures, open source is practically becoming a matter of public > policy. The reason all of the list server recipients are aware of Linux is through years of 'community' effort. For the average newbie the concept of Linux or an alternative to Windows simply does not stand out. We are readily aware of McDonalds, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Dell, Windows, Goodyear, Molson, Saturn, CNN, CBC. Would Linux fit into the list? No. > The trend is changing here too, but this is the enemy's home turf; the The enemies home turf is where ever they can challenge the legal system with enough BS, control the situation and prevail...at least on the rulings. Piracy is another issue. > filthy politics at play simply because the government of Massachusetts > wants to enforce open standards for documents. This crap simply wouldn't > be tolerated in most other countries today; indeed, the arrogance of the > proprietary vendors at play in Mass would work strongly against them in > most other countries. Oddly enough filthy politics traditionally aren't tolerated here. The reason America (and Canada) were created was to guarantee freedom to the 'huddled masses' from tyranny. > In the case of most proprietary systems software, the primary market is RickT -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 15:31:52 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:31:52 -0500 Subject: PegaSoft Annual Charity Christmas Dinner Message-ID: <1134142312.3041.23.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> On Thursday, December 15, 2006 at 7:00 pm PegaSoft will be hosting our annual Charity Christmas Dinner. This year the party will be hosted at the Bedford Road Swiss Chalet on Bloor Street near the St. George subway stop in Toronto. Enjoy a nice meal, open talk about open source in a 1-on-1 atmosphere. I'll be raffling off a copy of my book "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash". Have a good time and bring a small cash donations for the CHUM-CITY Christmas Wish which buys toys for needy children. As always, attendance is free and open to friends but we request that email Mel Wilson (mwilson-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) to confirm that you are coming so we can book enough tables. See you there! For more information about PegaSoft or its events, visit our web site at http://www.pegasoft.ca -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 17:11:01 2005 From: smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sheldon Mustard) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:11:01 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051207173521.C25423-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <22e435080512090911l52c0e81bua68a5b3529d224a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Lastly there are organizations in other cities that GTALUG has contact with, Hamilton > LUG, Kitchener/Waterloo LUG, Newmarket LUG, and Barrie LUG. Does anyone have a contact for Newmarket LUG? Thanks. SJM -- Sheldon Mustard smustard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org "There will be no order, only chaos." - Pi (1998) -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 18:22:27 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:22:27 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice Calc column limit? In-Reply-To: <4396E621.7090708-HoWcdTCbwWKHoZZAE0nKLw@public.gmane.org> References: <4396E621.7090708@cheapersafer.com> Message-ID: <4399CB63.5090009@georgetown.wehave.net> Rob Sutherland wrote: > Does OpenOffice Calc have any limits on the number of columns? A while back I tried to do something in Excel and ran into some limit (65k rows it might have been). Openoffice did not have the issue. So not an answer to your question but at least it's got a better chance than Excel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 18:25:20 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:25:20 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399973D.3070701-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 09:39:57AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > It's not enough for open source alternatives to be better than > proprietary counterparts. They have to be compellingly better in order > to get people to change direction. This is often simplified during > update cycles, when the cost of sticking with the chosen path itself > requires new expense in software, training and support upgrades. The > task is also made easier when the proprietary version is badly botched > -- and yet look at the hard time Firefox has had getting a significant > market share despite all of IE's well publicized security holes. Well firefox leaks memory like a sieve, and at elast the windows version will spin on the cpu if you leave it open while suspending a laptop and then resuming it later causing the resume step to take many minutes instead of seconds, and then you still have to close firefox and start ig again to let the cpu go back to normal load. Maybe some of it is the GUI code in windows, but I suspect the majority is that firefox just contains a lot of very crappy code. It was based on the descendant of netscape 4, which has to be one of the most awful browsers ever written. I think sometimes you have to rewrite your code from scratch to clean it up, except that isn't exciting so most people don't want to volunteer to do that. I could be wrong, but I don't think the mozilla project is attracting the worlds best coders, certainly not the ones that carefully test every function they write to make sure it has no memory leaks or bad pointer calculations or anything else that could deteriorate the quality of the overall project. > We are up against senior IT staff with political and social turfs to > protect, asses to cover, aversion to change, and a reluctance to > implement technology that new employees will likely know better than > their longtime managers. Given all that, combined with the lack of > marketing muscle of "Linux Inc", and I don't think the pace of growth is > anything to be ashamed of. Imagine how many less people would be employed reinstalling machines, if everything ran linux instead. What if your only IT skill is reinstalling windows? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 18:31:05 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:31:05 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134140779.4137.21.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 10:06:19AM -0500, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > The reason all of the list server recipients are aware of Linux is > through years of 'community' effort. For the average newbie the concept > of Linux or an alternative to Windows simply does not stand out. We are > readily aware of McDonalds, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Dell, Windows, > Goodyear, Molson, Saturn, CNN, CBC. Would Linux fit into the list? No. Well I am not sure I quite understand this part. I found out about linux by looking at what was new in the usenet binaries section for unix back in late 92/early 93, and found the disk images for SLS 1.03, which was labeled as a free unix for i386 type machines. Being an Amiga user, and never impressed by DOS when I encountered it, and having used QNX in the form used on Unisys Icons, I started downloading the disk images (took a few weeks with a 2400 modem), and installed it and was impressed (It installed, and booted, and worked. I had to be impressed.) I didn't realize it came with source code at the time, since not being much of a programmer yet at the time, I had no idea I might want to change anything. I did not learn about linux through friends or the community, just through searching what was new on usenet. > The enemies home turf is where ever they can challenge the legal system > with enough BS, control the situation and prevail...at least on the > rulings. Piracy is another issue. > > Oddly enough filthy politics traditionally aren't tolerated here. The > reason America (and Canada) were created was to guarantee freedom to the > 'huddled masses' from tyranny. I don't think the founders of either country would necesarily like everything about how it has turned out. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 19:40:33 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:40:33 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209182520.GV3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4399DDB1.6040500@sympatico.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Well firefox leaks memory like a sieve Not my experience at all. Yes, it's a fairly big image in memory (around 50MB) but its not growing, and plays well on all my computer systems. Since Firefox is the blogger's friend, I'd expected to have seen whining about any problems with Windows suspend -- but I can't find any references to that on the web. You're using 1.5, yes? cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 20:17:16 2005 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:17:16 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209182520.GV3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4399E64C.7020700@pobox.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Well firefox leaks memory like a sieve, and at elast the windows version >will spin on the cpu if you leave it open while suspending a laptop and >then resuming it later causing the resume step to take many minutes >instead of seconds, and then you still have to close firefox and start >ig again to let the cpu go back to normal load. Maybe some of it is the >GUI code in windows, but I suspect the majority is that firefox just >contains a lot of very crappy code. It was based on the descendant of >netscape 4, which has to be one of the most awful browsers ever written. >I think sometimes you have to rewrite your code from scratch to clean it >up, except that isn't exciting so most people don't want to volunteer to >do that. I could be wrong, but I don't think the mozilla project is >attracting the worlds best coders, certainly not the ones that carefully >test every function they write to make sure it has no memory leaks or >bad pointer calculations or anything else that could deteriorate the >quality of the overall project. > > The Gecko rendering engine *is* a ground-up rewrite. I won't comment on the quality of the code, but I will say that Mozilla and Firefox seem to interact really poorly with NT's craptacular scheduler and VM system. If you have enough RAM, the following config setting is a must under Windows: // keep browser from releasing its working set to NT when minimized -- so it doesn't have to get paged in later user_pref("config.trim_on_minimize", false); Actually that's a general point: I have no less than 20 settings in user.js on any platform to make Firefox bearable. Mozilla is the Emacs of web browsers! :D And I don't find it leaks much RAM. I've found that memory usage on Windows is very stable -- I leave it running for weeks at a time at work, and with the above config option and my extensions, Firefox 1.0.x was stable at 105MB and 1.5 is stable at 130MB. (I use other browsers on Linux.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 20:37:56 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:37:56 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399DDB1.6040500-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4399DDB1.6040500@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051209203756.GX3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 02:40:33PM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Not my experience at all. Yes, it's a fairly big image in memory (around > 50MB) but its not growing, and plays well on all my computer systems. > Since Firefox is the blogger's friend, I'd expected to have seen whining > about any problems with Windows suspend -- but I can't find any > references to that on the web. > > You're using 1.5, yes? Well it's my wife's laptop, and no I think she is still on 1.0.7 although I suggest a few days ago she upgrade, I am not sure she did yet. That is firefox 1.0.7 on win xp hates suspend and spins on the cpu. I never use suspend on linux so I have no idea if it tolerates it there. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 21:31:24 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 09 Dec 2005 16:31:24 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399E64C.7020700-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4399E64C.7020700@pobox.com> Message-ID: Andrej Marjan writes: > I won't comment on the quality of the code, but I will say that Mozilla and > Firefox seem to interact really poorly with NT's craptacular scheduler and VM > system. If you have enough RAM, the following config setting is a must under > Windows: > > > // keep browser from releasing its working set to NT when minimized -- > so it doesn't have to get paged in later > user_pref("config.trim_on_minimize", false); > > Actually that's a general point: I have no less than 20 settings in user.js > on any platform to make Firefox bearable. Mozilla is the Emacs of web > browsers! :D People used to say Emacs stands for Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping! That was in the days of 8MB Sun3s. I'd be happy if Firefox or Mozilla occupied only 8MB. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 21:44:11 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:44:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City In-Reply-To: <4398AA60.6080102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> <4398AA60.6080102@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | | Meng Cheah wrote: | | > The computers left at the City's Recycling Depots and Environment Days | > events go to ADL Process Inc. They have the 2005 contract. This company | > dismantles computers and disposes of the components to scrap metal and | > plastic dealers. It seems that the computers that the City receives are not | > of a high enough caliber to be refurbished. | | | Thanks for the update. | | I would challenge that assertion, for it may assume that the refurbished | computers may need to be capable of running recent versions of Windows. Maybe | it is worth asking what they consider to be "high enough calibre". I've been to "Environment Days" about three times in the last two years. http://www.toronto.ca/environment_days/ http://www.toronto.ca/environment_days/activities.htm Summary: - put on most Saturdays by the City of Toronto, April through October - in a different park each time - accept stuff that is not normally allowed in garbage - make pamphlets and recycling gear (blue boxes etc.) available. They had a depot for working electronic stuff. I don't remember the exact criteria. These were collected by a charity (I don't remember which one). Much electronic stuff was sent to ADL. I saw lots of stuff with promise that was sent to ADL. I don't think that ADL tries to reuse anything. I asked (several times, several people) if there was anything volunteers could do to help divert stuff from ADL. I was actually thinking of TLUG. But the answer was always "no". A year and a half ago, I did manage to snag a pretty reasonable PIII whitebox from the jaws of the ADL bin. It had a bum hard disk -- not much of a challenge for me. With a bunch of us, and 110V power (not always available), we TLUGgers could set up a pretty useful triage station for old PCs. One question: what would one do with the old PCs that were rescued? I'm not sure that Toronto is short of PCs. Decent new PCs (better than 90% of old PCs) are not very expensive at all. My intuitive valuations of computers were formed too long ago. When I started using computers, small computers cost the same as mansions (1966). Then they cost the same as cars (~1972). I got my first new computer as a substitute for a heifer (1982). Now they cost the same as a really fancy dinner for four (Splendido's three course prix fixe menu is $82; don't forget the tip; drinks extra) (I picked Splendido because it is on Harbord, close to TLUG meetings). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 21:55:24 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:55:24 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051208181559.GA2530@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051209215523.GA2660@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 02:03:56PM -0500, G. Matthew Rice wrote: > William Park writes: > > On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 05:35:21PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > 4) WestLug is third meeting started recently to cater to people that > > > live in Mississauga. It is held at a bar (I don't know which one) near > > > Dundas and Dixie I believe. William Park is one of the organizers, but > > > he has mentioned other names that organize it as well. > > > > It is spelled 'WestTLUG'. But, close enough. :-) > > And they meet at Dundas/Glen Erin, I believe. > > BTW, I don't see their meetings posted on gtalug.org. I also had trouble > finding them on yahoo groups. Going to groups.yahoo.com and searching for > WestLUG found nothing. I had to go to the CLUE LUG listing and click on the WestTLUG, note the extra 'T'. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 22:00:06 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:00:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally at my wits end, i need help! or point to a place that can help! In-Reply-To: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: | From: ted leslie | This is one bitch of a problem. You sound understandably frantic. You have to decide how much time you have to get a solution fielded. Tracking down the problem might take time. | I have a product, a boot DVD, runs linux, used by companies, and generally works fine. I don't understand this sentence. Is this a product you created, or one you acquired some how. Perhaps this is a mixture of the two: a distro you have customized. This affects how much fixing you can do. | 90% of them work perfect. | now for the most part i solved the problems up until now by suggesting a different video card. | In all cases the boot DVD didnt have support for, for example Ati Xpress 200, etc. | Once using a card that was detected, the problem goes away. | Its odd thou, that the apps in Linux: browser, large flash soft-phone, etc, all work fine under | the fall-through VESA mode. Sure sounds like an X bug. But your description isn't clear enough to be sure. Are you saying that in VESA mode you get the failure? Always? Only? Is the problem related to colour depth? How many bits per pixel are used in the working cases? In the non-working cases? Most modern cards support 24 or 32 bpp, but perhaps VESA modes are only 16 or 8 bpp. I don't actually understand VESA mode in X. Do you mean VESA FB mode, or straight VESA mode? Do you have an in-house failing system that you can experiment with? X will always be behind in supporting hardware for which the manufacturers refuse to support X. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 22:18:35 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 09 Dec 2005 17:18:35 -0500 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: <20051209215523.GA2660-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051208181559.GA2530@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051209215523.GA2660@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > > BTW, I don't see their meetings posted on gtalug.org. I also had trouble > > finding them on yahoo groups. Going to groups.yahoo.com and searching > > for WestLUG found nothing. I had to go to the CLUE LUG listing and click > > on the > > WestTLUG, note the extra 'T'. Same difference, though. It still doesn't show up unless you go to ca.groups.yahoo.com. Oh well. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 22:24:21 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:24:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping [was Re:Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace] In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4399E64C.7020700@pobox.com> Message-ID: | From: Tim Writer | People used to say Emacs stands for Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping! | That was in the days of 8MB Sun3s. Actually, we said it in the days before Sun existed. I think that first heard it, contemptuously, from Peter Fraser, the main author of QED for GCOS. I first tried (Gosling's) EMACS in in the days of 8MB VAX departmental servers. Unaffordable, in my opinion. At about that time I got a Kaypro II which came bundled with an EMACS subset, Perfect Writer (a relabelled MINCE). The Kaypro had 64K of RAM and two floppy drives. That got me (my fingers) into the EMACS habit. I now use JOVE as my main editor. It is an EMACS subset developed on a PDP-11 (64K of RAM for code plus 64K for data). It is bigger now. Compiled for x86_64: text data bss dec hex filename 137133 11076 299276 447485 6d3fd /usr/bin/jove 1019061 2482692 0 3501753 356eb9 /usr/bin/emacs (JOVE's BSS is mostly pre-allocated buffer cache.) The good parts of EMACS are not fat. BTW, I think that it is wonderful that I can use the same application (JOVE) for more than 20 years. Through umpteen changes to the platform. I've used cat(1) for just over 30 years now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 22:35:45 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:35:45 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <43990E43.30207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051209223545.GA3093@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 11:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more > coverage :-) > > Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with > builtin video? No. All on-board video are mATX on AMD side. Intel has ATX with on-board video, but that's P4 side. > > I want an ATX, not miniATX, because I need the extra expansion slots. > Besides, I already have an old ATX case with power supply. > > I want built in video because I don't want to buy another video card. > I want to play with VNC and run a headless box. > > If I can't find one (or one cheap enough), I'll break down and buy a > video card but that is the final resort. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 22:55:55 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:55:55 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209183105.GW3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>; from lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 01:31:05PM -0500 References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 01:31:05PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 10:06:19AM -0500, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > The reason all of the list server recipients are aware of Linux is > > through years of 'community' effort. For the average newbie the concept > > of Linux or an alternative to Windows simply does not stand out. We are > > readily aware of McDonalds, Wal Mart, Canadian Tire, Dell, Windows, > > Goodyear, Molson, Saturn, CNN, CBC. Would Linux fit into the list? No. > > Well I am not sure I quite understand this part. I found out about > linux by looking at what was new in the usenet binaries section for unix > back in late 92/early 93, and found the disk images for SLS 1.03, which > was labeled as a free unix for i386 type machines. Being an Amiga user, > and never impressed by DOS when I encountered it, and having used QNX in > the form used on Unisys Icons, I started downloading the disk images > (took a few weeks with a 2400 modem), and installed it and was impressed > (It installed, and booted, and worked. I had to be impressed.) I > didn't realize it came with source code at the time, since not being > much of a programmer yet at the time, I had no idea I might want to > change anything. I did not learn about linux through friends or the > community, just through searching what was new on usenet. > Ah the memories. I ran into linux on a usenet as well. The year was spring of 1992 and I spent a few months reading about it in amongst the minix newsgroups instead of doing my thesis. I then graduated from university and promptly forgot about it as I had no access to the internet. A friend of mine from university mentioned that he had grabbed a walnut creek cd with linux on it. I handed him 40 floppies the next day and aquired slackware and a set of printed how-tos a week later. It took all day Sunday to install on a 386 SX 16 MHz machine with 4 M of memory. I even got X up and running! My first project was to recompile the kernel. Kernel vs 0.93.1 was what came with it, but on two of the floppies was source for 1.0.9. Compiling that kernel took four days. Anyone remember using /dev/fd0 as swap space? Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 23:41:13 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:41:13 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <20051209223545.GA3093-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <20051209223545.GA3093@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439A1619.5090601@pppoe.ca> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 11:55:31PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more >>coverage :-) >> >>Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with >>builtin video? > > > No. All on-board video are mATX on AMD side. Intel has ATX with > on-board video, but that's P4 side. > > >>I want an ATX, not miniATX, because I need the extra expansion slots. >>Besides, I already have an old ATX case with power supply. >> >>I want built in video because I don't want to buy another video card. >>I want to play with VNC and run a headless box. >> >>If I can't find one (or one cheap enough), I'll break down and buy a >>video card but that is the final resort. > > Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Guess I'll bite the bullet then :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 23:46:46 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 18:46:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City In-Reply-To: References: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> <4398AA60.6080102@telly.org> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > A year and a half ago, I did manage to snag a pretty reasonable PIII > whitebox from the jaws of the ADL bin. It had a bum hard disk -- not > much of a challenge for me. With a bunch of us, and 110V power (not > always available), we TLUGgers could set up a pretty useful triage > station for old PCs. > One question: what would one do with the old PCs that were rescued? > I'm not sure that Toronto is short of PCs. Decent new PCs (better > than 90% of old PCs) are not very expensive at all. I think you're very right there, and that this is why systems are simply heading to the trash. The level of expertise it takes to become useful "triage" may be worth quite a lot more than the would-be recycled PCs are actually worth. The only reason I would take interest in even *somewhat* older hardware is if the case is so well-constructed that THAT makes it somehow worth holding onto it. For $100, I can get a disk drive that stores way more than I ever used to have to store, that is no larger (and possibly smaller) than the old ones, and which consumes less power, and which is probably faster than, an entire array of the older drives. Hence, old disk drives aren't of interest. Likewise, having extra PCs lying around doesn't mean I have any more computing power of any meaningful sort; one AMD64 box is some ludicrous factor more powerful than anything that is coming out of any leasing situation. And it being not THAT expensive, I'd rather have the fresh, new box that occupies ONE tower space rather than some sort of "Beowulf cluster" of P200's that have *less* memory, *less* disk, *less* CPU power, and which generate more heat. Based on this model, it makes *no* sense to look at anything recycled. And I don't think this is that "deviant" a perspective. There are people that are legitimately choosing to get Mac Minis that are just tiny and iMacs that integrate the computer into the LCD screen because it doesn't make sense to take up a lot of real estate with their computers. Part of why Toronto has a pretty vibrant economy of system administrators is actually an extension of this. We have enough networking infrastructure at King & Front that it makes sense for people to pay top real-estate dollar there to put in racks of machines that are as powerful as possible (so as to warrant the real-estate dollars) in order to take advantage of the nearby super-high-speed bandwidth. We normally consider deep downtown to be real estate that's "way expensive;" if you can stack computers with enough "computational density," it's cheaper to stuff them at Q9 than it is to have to send dedicated network wiring out to cheaper real estate. > My intuitive valuations of computers were formed too long ago. When I > started using computers, small computers cost the same as mansions > (1966). Then they cost the same as cars (~1972). I got my first new > computer as a substitute for a heifer (1982). Now they cost the same > as a really fancy dinner for four (Splendido's three course prix fixe > menu is $82; don't forget the tip; drinks extra) (I picked Splendido > because it is on Harbord, close to TLUG meetings). Boy, have the rules changed. We're seeing, in all of this, some "disruptive technology changes." One of the side-effects is that if you stand in particular places, free computer hardware rains down on you. Your older intuition is certainly no longer valid :-). Looking at this "rain of free computer hardware," intuition may be, "Hey! It's free stuff! I want it!" I'm getting increasingly convinced that that intuition is getting increasingly wrong. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 23:51:25 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:51:25 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209175555.A12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> >I then graduated from university and promptly forgot about it as I had no access to the internet. > > In the early 90s, that's what UUCP was for... >A friend of mine from university mentioned that he had grabbed a walnut creek cd with linux on it. I handed him 40 floppies the next day and aquired slackware and a set of printed how-tos a week later. > Anyone else here cut their teeth on Yggdrasil? - {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 00:00:32 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:00:32 -0500 Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City In-Reply-To: ; from cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 06:46:46PM -0500 References: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> <4398AA60.6080102@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051209190032.B12588@diamond.ss.org> > Likewise, having extra PCs lying around doesn't mean I have any more > computing power of any meaningful sort; one AMD64 box is some > ludicrous factor more powerful than anything that is coming out of any > leasing situation. And it being not THAT expensive, I'd rather have > the fresh, new box that occupies ONE tower space rather than some sort > of "Beowulf cluster" of P200's that have *less* memory, *less* disk, > *less* CPU power, and which generate more heat. > > Based on this model, it makes *no* sense to look at anything recycled. > > And I don't think this is that "deviant" a perspective. One use I have put recycled machines to use is as a cheap disk array. A promise card, some new disks and something salvaged out of a dumpster makes a great terabyte array that can be set up as a NFS or SAMBA drive. I haven't had any use for old machines other than this. I am retiring my old boxes as the drives die as well although I have some of the old indestructable cases I just can't get myself to throw out. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 00:18:48 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:18:48 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <4399973D.3070701-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> Message-ID: <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Inertia is a very powerful obstacle, arguably more powerful than > Microsoft's marketing or technical issues. People have career > investments in doing things a certain way (and decision-makers have had > more time to go down one specific path than their underlings). More > often than not, the complaint "Linux doesn't work properly" really means > "Linux doesn't work the way I'm used to". > > It's not enough for open source alternatives to be better than > proprietary counterparts. They have to be compellingly better in order > to get people to change direction. This is often simplified during > update cycles, when the cost of sticking with the chosen path itself > requires new expense in software, training and support upgrades. The > task is also made easier when the proprietary version is badly botched > -- and yet look at the hard time Firefox has had getting a significant > market share despite all of IE's well publicized security holes. > > We are up against senior IT staff with political and social turfs to > protect, asses to cover, aversion to change, and a reluctance to > implement technology that new employees will likely know better than > their longtime managers. Given all that, combined with the lack of > marketing muscle of "Linux Inc", and I don't think the pace of growth is > anything to be ashamed of. It's amazing how much garbage some people are willing to put up with. I recently started supporting Windows users, at a large company where they use Outlook. Until now, I had never *EVER* heard of people routinely losing large amounts of email. Outlook uses one large PST file for each personal folder. When these folders get much beyond 750 MB they tend to corrupt, with little hope of recovery. The "Inbox Repair Tool" rarely works, so if there's no backup, the messages are gone. Outlook also tends to "forget" where the PST files are. When that happens, the user has to recreate the personal folders in Outlook, by reconnecting to the PST files. These people have come to accept this as normal!!!???!!! Why can't some people realize what a garbage product Outlook is and go to some other app? Just about everything else is far more reliable. In all the (almost 30) years I've been using and supporting computers, I've never heard of mail disappearing due to anything other than finger error or hardware failure, until now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 00:36:42 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:36:42 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A187D.5050304-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> Message-ID: <439A231A.5090901@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> I then graduated from university and promptly forgot about it as I had no access to the internet. >> >> > > In the early 90s, that's what UUCP was for... > >> A friend of mine from university mentioned that he had grabbed a walnut creek cd with linux on it. I handed him 40 floppies the next day and aquired slackware and a set of printed how-tos a week later. >> > Anyone else here cut their teeth on Yggdrasil? IIRC, that was the first Linux I installed, about 10 years ago. Didn't do much with it. I still have their Linux Bible, Gnu Testament. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 01:15:14 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:15:14 -0500 Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues Message-ID: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> FYI * New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues Online Rights Canada Launches with EFF, CIPPIC Support Toronto - Online Rights Canada (ORC) launched in Canada Friday, giving Canadians a new voice in critical technology and information policy issues. The grassroots organization is jointly supported by the Canadian Internet Policy & Public Interest Clinic (CIPPIC) and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). "Canadians are realizing in ever-greater numbers that the online world offers tremendous opportunities for learning, communicating, and innovating, but that those opportunities are at risk as a result of corporate practices, government policies and legal regimes that hinder online privacy and free speech," said Philippa Lawson, Executive Director and General Counsel of CIPPIC. "Online Rights Canada provides a home on the Internet for grassroots activism on digital issues that are important to ordinary Canadians." "With the Canadian government preparing for a January election, all of last year's legislation is back on the drawing board. Canadians now have another chance to present a public interest perspective on issues like copyright reform and increased government surveillance," said Ren Bucholz, EFF's Policy Coordinator, Americas. "We are happy to be launching ORC at such a critical time." One of ORC's first actions is a petition drive against unwarranted surveillance law. A bill proposed in Parliament last month would have allowed law enforcement agencies to obtain personal information without a warrant and forced communications providers to build surveillance backdoors into the hardware that routes phone calls and Internet traffic. The petition asks Canadian lawmakers to protect citizens' privacy rights when the new government convenes in 2006. Other important issues for ORC will include copyright law, access to information, and freedom from censorship. "Today, ORC focuses on digital copyright and lawful access. But there is no reason to restrict the site to those two issues," said CIPPIC Staff Counsel David Fewer. "Our hope is that ORC will evolve into the first place to go for Canadians looking for opportunities to protect their online rights. Anyone can be an activist - Online Rights Canada will give you the tools you need." Online Rights Canada is the latest group to join the global fight for digital rights. Digital Rights Ireland launched earlier this week, and the Open Rights Group launched in the United Kingdom last month. For Online Rights Canada: For this release: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 01:18:42 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 20:18:42 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A1EE8.9060807-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 07:18:48PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > It's amazing how much garbage some people are willing to put up with. I > recently started supporting Windows users, at a large company where they > use Outlook. Until now, I had never *EVER* heard of people routinely > losing large amounts of email. Outlook uses one large PST file for each > personal folder. When these folders get much beyond 750 MB they tend to > corrupt, with little hope of recovery. The "Inbox Repair Tool" rarely > works, so if there's no backup, the messages are gone. Outlook also > tends to "forget" where the PST files are. When that happens, the user > has to recreate the personal folders in Outlook, by reconnecting to the > PST files. These people have come to accept this as normal!!!???!!! > Why can't some people realize what a garbage product Outlook is and go > to some other app? Just about everything else is far more reliable. In > all the (almost 30) years I've been using and supporting computers, I've > never heard of mail disappearing due to anything other than finger error > or hardware failure, until now. Simple. - It's not their money. - Sysadmin has somthing to do. - Users have something to do. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 01:37:04 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 20:37:04 -0500 Subject: wireless card: PCI card or USB adapter ? Message-ID: <20051210013704.GA2273@node1.opengeometry.net> I'm considering either - PCI wireless cards, or - USB adapter wireless They are both same price and same specs. 1. Any recommendatation on which to go for? I'm leaning toward PCI card, because I don't like "lose" peripherals. But, I'll defer to the experts. 2. Can two computers connect to each other directly with wireless card, just like "cross-over" cable? Thanks in advance. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 01:41:42 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:41:42 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210011842.GA2176-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439A3256.4060700@utoronto.ca> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 07:18:48PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>It's amazing how much garbage some people are willing to put up with. I >>recently started supporting Windows users, at a large company where they >>use Outlook. Until now, I had never *EVER* heard of people routinely >>losing large amounts of email. Outlook uses one large PST file for each >>personal folder. When these folders get much beyond 750 MB they tend to >>corrupt, with little hope of recovery. The "Inbox Repair Tool" rarely >>works, so if there's no backup, the messages are gone. Outlook also >>tends to "forget" where the PST files are. When that happens, the user >>has to recreate the personal folders in Outlook, by reconnecting to the >>PST files. These people have come to accept this as normal!!!???!!! >>Why can't some people realize what a garbage product Outlook is and go >>to some other app? Just about everything else is far more reliable. In >>all the (almost 30) years I've been using and supporting computers, I've >>never heard of mail disappearing due to anything other than finger error >>or hardware failure, until now. > > > Simple. > - It's not their money. > - Sysadmin has somthing to do. > - Users have something to do. > I spent a few weeks this summer trying to recover fragments of a currupted .dbx file (even worse than .pst) for a user to simple text files. Apparently when cleaning up a mailbox, Outlook Express should not be touched at all or it will corrupt 6 months worth of email in one blow. Once that happens and your user defragments thinking to speed things up well... I know more about fat32 data recovery than I ever thought possible ;) Can mbox folders become corrupted? I very much doubt it unless there is filesystem corruption? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 02:27:51 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:27:51 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210011842.GA2176-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 07:18:48PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> It's amazing how much garbage some people are willing to put up with. I >> recently started supporting Windows users, at a large company where they >> use Outlook. Until now, I had never *EVER* heard of people routinely >> losing large amounts of email. Outlook uses one large PST file for each >> personal folder. When these folders get much beyond 750 MB they tend to >> corrupt, with little hope of recovery. The "Inbox Repair Tool" rarely >> works, so if there's no backup, the messages are gone. Outlook also >> tends to "forget" where the PST files are. When that happens, the user >> has to recreate the personal folders in Outlook, by reconnecting to the >> PST files. These people have come to accept this as normal!!!???!!! >> Why can't some people realize what a garbage product Outlook is and go >> to some other app? Just about everything else is far more reliable. In >> all the (almost 30) years I've been using and supporting computers, I've >> never heard of mail disappearing due to anything other than finger error >> or hardware failure, until now. > > Simple. > - It's not their money. > - Sysadmin has somthing to do. > - Users have something to do. > It's also lost corporate data. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 02:55:00 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:55:00 -0500 Subject: wireless card: PCI card or USB adapter ? In-Reply-To: <20051210013704.GA2273-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210013704.GA2273@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439A4384.1010506@telly.org> William Park wrote: >I'm considering either > - PCI wireless cards, or > - USB adapter wireless >They are both same price and same specs. > >1. Any recommendatation on which to go for? I'm leaning toward PCI > card, because I don't like "lose" peripherals. But, I'll defer to > the experts. > > I'd pick PCI too, if only because the thing's screwed in and there's less likelihood of jiggling loose or losing connections. I'd always thought of USB as best for temporary peripherals, those that you plug in and out as necessary. It sounds like you want the wireless thing in permanent, in which case you have no need for hotplug capability. The only real benefit I can see for USB is that it would give you more flexibility of antenna placement. >2. Can two computers connect to each other directly with wireless card, > just like "cross-over" cable? > > Yes, there is a point-to-point mode for wireless that doesn't require an access point. Never used it myself, though. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 03:38:25 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:38:25 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A3D27.6060001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 09:27:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: > > Simple. > > - It's not their money. > > - Sysadmin has somthing to do. > > - Users have something to do. > > It's also lost corporate data. Yes. But, did someone got fired for that? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 04:43:25 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:43:25 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210033825.GA2593-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439A5CED.2030704@istop.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 09:27:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>William Park wrote: >> >>>Simple. >>> - It's not their money. >>> - Sysadmin has somthing to do. >>> - Users have something to do. >> >>It's also lost corporate data. > > > Yes. But, did someone got fired for that? You boy make me think. And to have some entertinement. zb. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 04:53:31 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 23:53:31 -0500 Subject: new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS Message-ID: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> http://tinyurl.com/76stb i had to view on my mac, aside from a wine based app, anyone got a way to view asf's on Linux, i get the need to view about 2 a year, so never really looked into it, anyways it a pretty cool video if you can view it its good to know that MS at least has an active plan to improve their bug-ware. I almost want to get me some microsoft software and get it to crash so i can use this cool bug reporting system. Of course there is no need for this in Linux! -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 05:01:38 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:01:38 -0500 Subject: Totally at my wits end, i need help! or point to a place that can help! In-Reply-To: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <200512100001.38605.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 8, 2005 23:57, ted leslie wrote: > Since the occurance is rare to begin with maybe not even 10%, maybe > more like 5% in the end, I have thought to try and see if the > problem would occur in a MS to MS environment, i.e. ruling out > Linux, but the task of getting that test suite set up, given it > might occur very rare, isnt first on my list. I thought of VNC, but > that doesn't do multiple sessions like WTS does. I might try Citrix > but get a load of this, I have left my name and number twice with > the Citric office in Toronto, even express great interest in > potentially using their product, which by the way is expensive as > hell, and they just dont call me back, unbelievable.! on that note, > any one have access to a Citrix MetaFrame server on Windows that i > could dump this app onto, and see if citrix would solve my problem > .. i can't even get hold of Citrix to ask for that :( Must this software run on Windows or is running it on Linux an option? What are the tools you used to write the Windows server app? Why can't you instrument that app? Have you considered using the freenx server with NX Client? The server part has to run on Linux. The client can be Windows, OS X, or Linux. We're using it to deploy rich-client PyQt apps to Windows users without having to worry about installing a Python runtime environment and our custom app on the Windows desktops, not that it is such a big deal to do that. Can you reliably reproduce the problem with certain computers? If so, what is different about them? -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 08:37:59 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:37:59 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? Message-ID: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Has anyone on the list tried making DVD slideshows under Linux? My wife is at her wits end with Windoze, and if I could set her up with a program that Just Works (TM) under Linux I'd be a hero. Anyone have any experiences? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 11:54:13 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:54:13 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210033825.GA2593-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439AC1E5.2020208@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 09:27:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> William Park wrote: >>> Simple. >>> - It's not their money. >>> - Sysadmin has somthing to do. >>> - Users have something to do. >> It's also lost corporate data. > > Yes. But, did someone got fired for that? > Not that I'm aware of and they're still using Outlook. Windows has got people so used to computer problems, that they don't know better. They simply have never worked with reliable computer systems. I was working with mini-computer systems for a few years before I even saw MS-DOS or Windows. Then, while using DOS on work and home computers, I felt frustrated by what it could do. Then I used OS/2 for several years and managed to avoid all the "fun" Windows users were having. Then, I switched to Linux on my home systems. Whenever I have to use Windows, I am appauled at what others consider normal computer operation. I am not used to losing data. I am not used to having to reboot when my Windows locks up. I am not used to worrying about malware etc. I am used to solid, reliable computers and I don't find that with Windows. Incidentally, a few years ago, I was supporting users on OS/2, Windows 95 and NT. One thing I found is that once an OS/2 user was set up and running, I almost never heard from them again. W95 generated many problems and while NT was much better than W95, it still wasn't anywhere near as good as OS/2. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 11:56:14 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:56:14 -0500 Subject: Totally at my wits end, i need help! or point to a place that can help! In-Reply-To: <200512100001.38605.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051208235756.264a8cd7.tleslie@tcn.net> <200512100001.38605.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <439AC25E.1020101@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On December 8, 2005 23:57, ted leslie wrote: >> Since the occurance is rare to begin with maybe not even 10%, maybe >> more like 5% in the end, I have thought to try and see if the >> problem would occur in a MS to MS environment, i.e. ruling out >> Linux, but the task of getting that test suite set up, given it >> might occur very rare, isnt first on my list. I thought of VNC, but >> that doesn't do multiple sessions like WTS does. I might try Citrix >> but get a load of this, I have left my name and number twice with >> the Citric office in Toronto, even express great interest in >> potentially using their product, which by the way is expensive as >> hell, and they just dont call me back, unbelievable.! on that note, >> any one have access to a Citrix MetaFrame server on Windows that i >> could dump this app onto, and see if citrix would solve my problem >> .. i can't even get hold of Citrix to ask for that :( > > Must this software run on Windows or is running it on Linux an option? IIRC, there is a Unix version of Citrix, but I've never seen it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 15:09:04 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:09:04 -0500 Subject: Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping [was Re:Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace] In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4399E64C.7020700@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20051210150904.GC15275@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 05:24:21PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > BTW, I think that it is wonderful that I can use the same application > (JOVE) for more than 20 years. Through umpteen changes to the > platform. I've used cat(1) for just over 30 years now. The ed subset of qed, ex, vi, and vim also is in the over 30 years club. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 14:38:56 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:38:56 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439AC1E5.2020208-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; from james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 06:54:13AM -0500 References: <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> <439AC1E5.2020208@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051210093856.D12588@diamond.ss.org> > > Incidentally, a few years ago, I was supporting users on OS/2, Windows > 95 and NT. One thing I found is that once an OS/2 user was set up and > running, I almost never heard from them again. W95 generated many > problems and while NT was much better than W95, it still wasn't anywhere > near as good as OS/2. > OS/2 had its share of weird problems, but to its defence it did successfully solve the 'stupid user' problem without sacrificing usability. Did you know that there was a way to add code to the kernel at configuration time. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 14:40:19 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:40:19 -0500 Subject: new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS In-Reply-To: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>; from tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 11:53:31PM -0500 References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051210094019.E12588@diamond.ss.org> I have been using both mplayer and xine to watch asf files without a problem. Bill On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 11:53:31PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/76stb > > i had to view on my mac, > aside from a wine based app, anyone got a way to view asf's on Linux, > i get the need to view about 2 a year, so never really looked into it, > anyways it a pretty cool video if you can view it > its good to know that MS at least has an active plan to improve their bug-ware. > I almost want to get me some microsoft software and get it to crash so i can use this > cool bug reporting system. Of course there is no need for this in Linux! > > -tl > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 15:09:15 2005 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:09:15 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210083759.GA12112-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:37:59 -0500 William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Has anyone on the list tried making DVD slideshows under Linux? My wife > is at her wits end with Windoze, and if I could set her up with a > program that Just Works (TM) under Linux I'd be a hero. Anyone have any > experiences? Thanks. > -- > > yours, > > William William, What do you mean by DVD slideshow? Are you showing off photographs, powerpoint, HTML? -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 15:05:50 2005 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (J. Qiang Li) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax Message-ID: <20051210150550.85207.qmail@web54711.mail.yahoo.com> hello, all i have a simple bash script that giving me problem under solaris. run "source my_script", got error: "if: Expression Syntax" then i chmod +x on my_script and invoke it with ./my_script , it worked. why? i am including this script as postinstall in a solaris package, it failed to get invoked at the postinstall stage. how do i fix that? it's a simple script as #!/bin/sh if [ -e 'file' ]; then echo "something" fi TIA James. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 15:10:55 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:10:55 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210083759.GA12112-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <200512101010.55782.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On December 10, 2005 03:37 am, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Has anyone on the list tried making DVD slideshows under Linux? My wife > is at her wits end with Windoze, and if I could set her up with a > program that Just Works (TM) under Linux I'd be a hero. Anyone have any > experiences? Thanks. Haven't tried any of these, but it is a good place to start. http://sourceforge.net/search/?type_of_search=soft&exact=1&forum_id=0&group_id=0&atid=0&words=dvd+slideshow&Search=Search -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 15:23:05 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:23:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: <20051210150550.85207.qmail-/8nd4WMOxW+A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210150550.85207.qmail@web54711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, J. Qiang Li wrote: > hello, all > > i have a simple bash script that giving me problem under solaris. > > run "source my_script", got error: "if: Expression Syntax" > > then i chmod +x on my_script and invoke it with ./my_script , it worked. why? i am including this > script as postinstall in a solaris package, it failed to get invoked at the postinstall stage. how > do i fix that? > > it's a simple script as > > #!/bin/sh > if [ -e 'file' ]; then > echo "something" > fi That is not a bash script. On Solaris, /bin/sh is not bash, it is a Bourne shell. Bourne shells do not have the -e operand. Either use [ -f 'file' ] or change the shebang to point to bash. -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:10:19 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:10:19 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051209175555.A12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051210161019.GY3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 05:55:55PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Ah the memories. I ran into linux on a usenet as well. The year was spring of 1992 and I spent a few months reading about it in amongst the minix newsgroups instead of doing my thesis. I then graduated from university and promptly forgot about it as I had no access to the internet. > > A friend of mine from university mentioned that he had grabbed a walnut creek cd with linux on it. I handed him 40 floppies the next day and aquired slackware and a set of printed how-tos a week later. It took all day Sunday to install on a 386 SX 16 MHz machine with 4 M of memory. I even got X up and running! My first project was to recompile the kernel. Kernel vs 0.93.1 was what came with it, but on two of the floppies was source for 1.0.9. Compiling that kernel took four days. > > Anyone remember using /dev/fd0 as swap space? No, I was using 80M on a 213M drive for the first install. Lots of room for swap, not that it needed it. The machine was a 486DX50 with 8M of ram. And the kernel was 0.99something. Whatever SLS 1.03 had. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:11:32 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:11:32 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A187D.5050304-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051210161132.GZ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 06:51:25PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Anyone else here cut their teeth on Yggdrasil? My first linux cd included it. I decided to try out redhat 2.0 instead though. Sounded better at the time. There was a few different distributions on the CD that I never tried, and never heard from again. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:13:33 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:13:33 -0500 Subject: wireless card: PCI card or USB adapter ? In-Reply-To: <20051210013704.GA2273-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210013704.GA2273@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051210161333.GA3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 08:37:04PM -0500, William Park wrote: > I'm considering either > - PCI wireless cards, or > - USB adapter wireless > They are both same price and same specs. Do they both _work_ with linux? > 1. Any recommendatation on which to go for? I'm leaning toward PCI > card, because I don't like "lose" peripherals. But, I'll defer to > the experts. I recomend gettings something with known to work GPL or equivalant drivers. At least that it is likely to continue working. Some people say good things about ralink based devices although I haven't tried any myself yet (I am more of a wired network person). > 2. Can two computers connect to each other directly with wireless card, > just like "cross-over" cable? That would be ad-hoc mode, so yes they can. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:15:43 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:15:43 -0500 Subject: new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS In-Reply-To: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051210161543.GB3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 11:53:31PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/76stb > > i had to view on my mac, > aside from a wine based app, anyone got a way to view asf's on Linux, > i get the need to view about 2 a year, so never really looked into it, > anyways it a pretty cool video if you can view it > its good to know that MS at least has an active plan to improve their bug-ware. > I almost want to get me some microsoft software and get it to crash so i can use this > cool bug reporting system. Of course there is no need for this in Linux! Works fine in aviplay. mplayer seems to dislike it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:17:54 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:17:54 -0500 Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: <20051210150550.85207.qmail-/8nd4WMOxW+A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210150550.85207.qmail@web54711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051210161754.GC3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:05:50AM -0800, J. Qiang Li wrote: > hello, all > > i have a simple bash script that giving me problem under solaris. > > run "source my_script", got error: "if: Expression Syntax" Why are you using source? sh/bash uses . not source. csh uses source and you can't source an sh/bash script when running csh. You can run it though, which is what ./script does. sh script would have also worked. Most likely it is just that whatever shell you are in doesn't do sh syntax if statements. > then i chmod +x on my_script and invoke it with ./my_script , it worked. why? i am including this > script as postinstall in a solaris package, it failed to get invoked at the postinstall stage. how > do i fix that? > > it's a simple script as > > #!/bin/sh > if [ -e 'file' ]; then > echo "something" > fi Looks fine. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:18:57 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:18:57 -0500 Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: References: <20051210150550.85207.qmail@web54711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051210161857.GD3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 10:23:05AM -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > That is not a bash script. On Solaris, /bin/sh is not bash, it is a > Bourne shell. Bourne shells do not have the -e operand. > > Either use [ -f 'file' ] or change the shebang to point to bash. [ is not always a shell builtin. The question is what does /bin/[ support. And the error message says nothing about the test syntax, just the if syntax. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:34:24 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:34:24 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 10:09:15AM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > What do you mean by DVD slideshow? Are you showing off photographs, powerpoint, HTML? I this case, photos set to music. Thanks for asking. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 16:48:50 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:48:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: <20051210161857.GD3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210150550.85207.qmail@web54711.mail.yahoo.com> <20051210161857.GD3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 10:23:05AM -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> That is not a bash script. On Solaris, /bin/sh is not bash, it is a >> Bourne shell. Bourne shells do not have the -e operand. >> >> Either use [ -f 'file' ] or change the shebang to point to bash. > > [ is not always a shell builtin. It has been since the System II Bourne Shell of 1981. It is exceedingly unlikely that you will find a Bourne-type shell without test and [ as a builtin. > The question is what does /bin/[ support. No, the question, almost certainly, is what does the shell builtin support. To verify that it is a builtin, at the prompt, type: type [ > And the error message says nothing about the test syntax, just the > if syntax. That is more evidence that it is a shell matter, not an external command problem. -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 17:07:35 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:07:35 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running Message-ID: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> Thanks to all who helped out. It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router I had lying around waiting to be used. Apart from the fact that this means I am going from Linksys to D-Link, at least the FTP works, and does so without much needing to be configured. I am not sure if someone mentioned anything about a virtual FTP server, but it is not necessary to have anything but default settings (unset in my router), since a "real" FTP server (vsftpd) is already running on my computer, and is set up for anonymous connections. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 17:33:02 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:33:02 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210161019.GY3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>; from lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 11:10:19AM -0500 References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051210161019.GY3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051210123302.F12588@diamond.ss.org> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 11:10:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 05:55:55PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Ah the memories. I ran into linux on a usenet as well. The year was spring of 1992 and I spent a few months reading about it in amongst the minix newsgroups instead of doing my thesis. I then graduated from university and promptly forgot about it as I had no access to the internet. > > > > A friend of mine from university mentioned that he had grabbed a walnut creek cd with linux on it. I handed him 40 floppies the next day and aquired slackware and a set of printed how-tos a week later. It took all day Sunday to install on a 386 SX 16 MHz machine with 4 M of memory. I even got X up and running! My first project was to recompile the kernel. Kernel vs 0.93.1 was what came with it, but on two of the floppies was source for 1.0.9. Compiling that kernel took four days. > > > > Anyone remember using /dev/fd0 as swap space? > > No, I was using 80M on a 213M drive for the first install. Lots of room > for swap, not that it needed it. The machine was a 486DX50 with 8M of > ram. And the kernel was 0.99something. Whatever SLS 1.03 had. > That was a sweet machine back then. I checked, my memory is failing me. The kernel was 0.99.3 on slackware distro at the time, and it came with source for 1.0.9 Since Slakware was SLS with the propreitary stuff ripped out and replaced, I'd guess you started with almost the same distro. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 17:33:13 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:33:13 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210163424.GA13762-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> Have you looked at the Mac platform? Macs include an application suite called iLife that includes iPhoto (software that organizes your photos and allows some retouching). From iPhoto I can send selected photos to iDVD (DVD authoring software) though I've never personally used it. I've used iMovie instead to send edited DV Video to iDVD. And I've burned DVDs with iDVD. Only problems I've had were older TV sets in Italy unable to sync to the NTSC frame rate. European DVD players although they pay attention to the region code will convert NTSC colour to PAL colour. And modern TV sets are multisync. Thats explains why if you connect an NTSC camcorder to a TV set in Italy you will probably get a black and white picture. BTW, there is a Philips DVD player which you can hack to set the region to zero. Originally set to region 1, it will now play region 2 DVDs. Haven't tested it with DVDs from other regions. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 17:59:28 2005 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (J. Qiang Li) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: <20051210161754.GC3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210161754.GC3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051210175928.49479.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> > > hello, all > > > > i have a simple bash script that giving me problem under solaris. > > > > run "source my_script", got error: "if: Expression Syntax" > > Why are you using source? sh/bash uses . not source. csh uses source > and you can't source an sh/bash script when running csh. you are mostly right. but 'source' works for bash as well, just not sh based on the book 'unix power tools'. anyway, took bit of time to find a good reference on various bourne shell. problem solved by using the correct test. this is a good read http://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/bourne/ James. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 18:15:34 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:15:34 -0500 Subject: Video on Linux 101 (was Re:new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS) In-Reply-To: <20051210094019.E12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051210094019.E12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439B1B46.2080203@telly.org> ted leslie wrote: >http://tinyurl.com/76stb > >i had to view on my mac, >aside from a wine based app, anyone got a way to view asf's on Linux, > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org answered: >I have been using both mplayer and xine to watch asf files without a problem. > > You're both right. The issue is not in the players themselves, but in the file formats themselves and what they contain. Multimedia encodings and compressions are a hodgepodge of proprietary IP, of which most is not voluntarily made available in an open source form. The term "codec" is used for the format-specific drivers needed to play or encode a file; each video file uses one codec for video and one for audio. Compounding the problem is that the file extension doesn't itself always give enough information on the codecs the file will need. I looked at two ASF files that people had sent me; both used Windows Media Audio 2 for their audio codec, but for video one used Windows Media 7 and other MPEG-4. The file in the URL sent by Ted uses yet a third video codec, Windows Media 9. In my experience these problems happen not just in ASF files but also in WMV files. Some will play, some won't -- it all depends on the codecs they use inside. Open source application support for all these codecs is substantial but not complete. In many cases, the codec technique is known and codable for open source players but protected by patents, trade secrets, etc. In other cases the technique isn't even known, so if it can't be reverse-engineered we must get and use the original Windows-binary codecs files. A full list of codecs in use, and their current status under open source systems and players, can be found at: http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/codecs-status.html . You'll notice that the WMV9 codec used in the Microsoft video file Ted is trying to watch is under the "not yet working" list for the open source native version; it's only supported through the Windows-binary codec. Such files are usually located in the /usr/lib/win32/ directory of a Linux or BSD system. Even so, there may still be some WMV9 files that are not playable; the status page says that "FFmpeg M$ WMV3/WMV9" codecs are not yet working. Because of the IP entanglements, distributions that may include the open source multimedia players such as xine and mplayer might not include many necessary codec files. This is similar to the issues involved in being able to play commercial DVDs on your open source system. To get these codecs, see http://www1.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design7/codecs.html from which you can download a gzip file containing the binary codecs. Ubuntu information on getting w32codec deb packages is at http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-75278.html RPMS for Mandriva are available at the Penguin Liberation Front (http://plf.zarb.org) and RPMS for Fedora and other RPM-using distros are here: http://rpm.greysector.net/mplayer/downloads-optional.html It doesn't surprise me -- and is likely no accident -- that the Microsoft-made video Ted wants to watch is one of the most difficult to do under an open source platform. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 18:35:42 2005 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: openldap Message-ID: <768631270512101035j21357325of570b7aaefc2baba@mail.gmail.com> Is anyone on the list using openldap or any other ldap based system for authentication? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 18:41:06 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:41:06 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210093856.D12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> <439AC1E5.2020208@rogers.com> <20051210093856.D12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439B2142.4000803@rogers.com> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Incidentally, a few years ago, I was supporting users on OS/2, Windows >> 95 and NT. One thing I found is that once an OS/2 user was set up and >> running, I almost never heard from them again. W95 generated many >> problems and while NT was much better than W95, it still wasn't anywhere >> near as good as OS/2. >> > OS/2 had its share of weird problems, but to its defence it did successfully solve the 'stupid user' problem without sacrificing usability. Did you know that there was a way to add code to the kernel at configuration time. I haven't done that, but there were a lot of things you could do. OS/2 supported hardware profiles long before Windows did. Just this morning, during breakfast with some friends, one of OS/2's benefits came up. I was mentioning how I was recently working on a Windows problem, where about 150 GB of a 750 GB drive was unusable on a Windows server, because of the number of files was maxed out, despite all the free space. That would have never happened on OS/2 with HPFS, as there's no concept of clusters. And of course, in Linux, we'd just change the number of inodes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:04:08 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:04:08 -0500 Subject: Video on Linux 101 (was Re:new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS) In-Reply-To: <439B1B46.2080203-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051210094019.E12588@diamond.ss.org> <439B1B46.2080203@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051210140408.3ccaaa3a.tleslie@tcn.net> you have to see the video before you say this :) > > It doesn't surprise me -- and is likely no accident -- that the > Microsoft-made video Ted wants to watch is one of the most difficult to > do under an open source platform. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:16:43 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:16:43 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> Paul King wrote: > Thanks to all who helped out. > > It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the > router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the > preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router I had > lying around waiting to be used. It is, usually, possible to find standard, factory set usernames and passwords by using google. Many would be surprised by learning how many companies use them ;) Once I had a problem while working for one company: I wanted to connect with the outside world by using SSH. Well, there was no way to get out: the router blocked port 22. I wanted to change its configuration but the response was: what for do you need it? ;) Well.. after some thinking about the situation I decided to not bother them anymore: just found out the factory set password and did changes... > > Paul King > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:30:02 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:30:02 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210161019.GY3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051210161019.GY3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <439B2CBA.8040200@istop.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 05:55:55PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> [...] The year was spring of 1992 I was 3 years later. > it took all day Sunday to install on a 386 SX 16 MHz > machine with 4 M of memory. I even got X up and running! The same. I had Linux running on a 4 MB. And now FC install crashes on a computer with 96 MB of RAM. I would not say that I enjoy that :( >>Anyone remember using /dev/fd0 as swap space? LOL. No, I dont think I did that ;) zb. > Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:34:55 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:34:55 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <439B1159.8030202-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20051210193455.GA14075@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 12:33:13PM -0500, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: >Have you looked at the Mac platform? No. I am not made of money, and I want control over my hardware and software. I use Linux for a reason, and I wrote to this list for a reason, too. Thanks you for your suggestion. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:40:45 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:40:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: bash errorif: Expression Syntax In-Reply-To: <20051210175928.49479.qmail-G9kKzkjJuBCA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210175928.49479.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, J. Qiang Li wrote: >>> hello, all >>> >>> i have a simple bash script that giving me problem under solaris. >>> >>> run "source my_script", got error: "if: Expression Syntax" >> >> Why are you using source? sh/bash uses . not source. csh uses source >> and you can't source an sh/bash script when running csh. > > you are mostly right. but 'source' works for bash as well, just not > sh based on the book 'unix power tools'. > You are mostly right; "source" works for bash (and csh, but that's an altogether different kettle of fish), but not for sh or ksh. You cannot source a bash (or sh) script from within csh. > anyway, took bit of time to find a good reference on various bourne > shell. problem solved by using the correct test. this is a good read > http://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/bourne/ For more links, see my shell page (in my .sig). -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:41:16 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:41:16 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210123302.F12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051210161019.GY3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051210123302.F12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051210194116.GE3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 12:33:02PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 11:10:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > No, I was using 80M on a 213M drive for the first install. Lots of room > > for swap, not that it needed it. The machine was a 486DX50 with 8M of > > ram. And the kernel was 0.99something. Whatever SLS 1.03 had. > > > > That was a sweet machine back then. It was my dad's cad system. It had a #9 Level 25 video card (2M VRAM, 1M DRAM, 40MHz TI34020), and since the phoenix vga chip on that card sucked it also had an ATI VGA Wonder XL24 in it linked by VESA passthrough. Most people have never even seen a DX50, and always assume it must have been a DX/2 50. People also wondered what 213M disk was required for when 80M was the common size. What is 213M today? A rouding error on your partition size? What a difference a decade or so makes. > I checked, my memory is failing me. The kernel was 0.99.3 on slackware distro at the time, and it came with source for 1.0.9 > > Since Slakware was SLS with the propreitary stuff ripped out and replaced, I'd guess you started with almost the same distro. Yeah slackware today still looks very much like SLS did then. It always makes me think slackware hasn't done anything to improve in all those years. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 19:49:39 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:49:39 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210083759.GA12112-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051210194939.GF3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 03:37:59AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Has anyone on the list tried making DVD slideshows under Linux? My wife > is at her wits end with Windoze, and if I could set her up with a > program that Just Works (TM) under Linux I'd be a hero. Anyone have any > experiences? Thanks. Well a quick search finds this: Package: dvdstyler Priority: optional Section: graphics Installed-Size: 1900 Maintainer: Christian Marillat Architecture: i386 Version: 1:1.4-0.4 Depends: libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.9.0), libbonobo2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libbonoboui2-0 (>= 2.5.4), libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libgconf2-4 (>= 2.9), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnome2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnomecanvas2-0 (>= 2.6.0), libgnomeui-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnomevfs2-0 (>= 2.10.0-0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.6.0), libice6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libjpeg62, liborbit2 (>= 1:2.10.0), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.8.2), libpopt0 (>= 1.7), libsm6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-3), libwxgtk2.6-0 (>= 2.6.1.2), libxml2 (>= 2.6.21), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), dvdauthor, mjpegtools, netpbm, mpgtx, mkisofs, dvd+rw-tools Filename: pool/main/d/dvdstyler/dvdstyler_1.4-0.4_i386.deb Size: 769240 MD5sum: dca52a43d6728eee7f4f510f405fddcc Description: a crossplatform DVD Authoring System dvdstyler is a crossplatform DVD Authoring System. The main DVDStyler features are: * You can drag and drop MPEG files directly * You can import image file for background * You can create NTSC/PAL menus * You can place text and images anywhere on the menu screen * You can change font/color * You can put basic text buttons, change font/color and background color * You can copy and paste any menu object * You can set chapters for each movie * You can change post command for each movie . http://dvdstyler.sourceforge.net/index.html Package: dvdauthor Priority: optional Section: otherosfs Installed-Size: 352 Maintainer: Marc Leeman Architecture: i386 Version: 0.6.11-2.1 Depends: libbz2-1.0, libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libdps1 (>> 4.1.0), libdvdread3, libfreetype6 (>= 2.1.5-1), libice6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libjasper-1.701-1 (>= 1.701.0), libjpeg62, liblcms1 (>= 1.08-1), libmagick9, libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.8rel), libsm6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libtiff4, libx11-6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libxext6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libxml2 (>= 2.6.21), libxt6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1) Filename: pool/main/d/dvdauthor/dvdauthor_0.6.11-2.1_i386.deb Size: 138320 MD5sum: 5a37e606f65b5987c5e5949c80b18c49 Description: create DVD-Video file system dvdauthor is a program that will generate a DVD movie from a valid mpeg2 stream that should play when you put it in a DVD player. Tag: hardware::storage:dvd, interface::commandline, role::sw:utility, sound::recorder, use::storing, works-with::video Package: qdvdauthor Priority: optional Section: graphics Installed-Size: 5192 Maintainer: Christian Marillat Architecture: i386 Version: 0.0.10-0.1 Depends: libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.1), libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.4), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.1), libx11-6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libxext6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libxine1 (>= 1.0.1), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), dvdauthor (>= 0.6.10), dvd-slideshow, mjpegtools Filename: pool/main/q/qdvdauthor/qdvdauthor_0.0.10-0.1_i386.deb Size: 2572672 MD5sum: b55f2b630a40757fe48a4b0435dd8e94 Description: GUI frontend for dvdauthor and other related tools The goal is to provide an easy-to-use, yet powerful and complete interface to generate DVD menus, slideshows, and videos to burn on a DVD. Package: dvdstyler Priority: optional Section: graphics Installed-Size: 1900 Maintainer: Christian Marillat Architecture: i386 Version: 1:1.4-0.4 Depends: libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.9.0), libbonobo2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libbonoboui2-0 (>= 2.5.4), libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libgconf2-4 (>= 2.9), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnome2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnomecanvas2-0 (>= 2.6.0), libgnomeui-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgnomevfs2-0 (>= 2.10.0-0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.6.0), libice6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libjpeg62, liborbit2 (>= 1:2.10.0), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.8.2), libpopt0 (>= 1.7), libsm6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-3), libwxgtk2.6-0 (>= 2.6.1.2), libxml2 (>= 2.6.21), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), dvdauthor, mjpegtools, netpbm, mpgtx, mkisofs, dvd+rw-tools Filename: pool/main/d/dvdstyler/dvdstyler_1.4-0.4_i386.deb Size: 769240 MD5sum: dca52a43d6728eee7f4f510f405fddcc Description: a crossplatform DVD Authoring System dvdstyler is a crossplatform DVD Authoring System. The main DVDStyler features are: * You can drag and drop MPEG files directly * You can import image file for background * You can create NTSC/PAL menus * You can place text and images anywhere on the menu screen * You can change font/color * You can put basic text buttons, change font/color and background color * You can copy and paste any menu object * You can set chapters for each movie * You can change post command for each movie . http://dvdstyler.sourceforge.net/index.html Package: dvd-slideshow Priority: optional Section: graphics Installed-Size: 388 Maintainer: Christian Marillat Architecture: all Version: 0.7.1-0.2 Depends: dvdauthor (>= 0.6.9), mjpegtools, imagemagick, netpbm, sox, gsfonts, ffmpeg (>= 0.4.8) Recommends: lame, toolame, jhead Filename: pool/main/d/dvd-slideshow/dvd-slideshow_0.7.1-0.2_all.deb Size: 75134 MD5sum: 2ff765d187092cee792437a29b9b05ce Description: tools to create dvd slideshow with menus dvd-slideshow This is the main script. It generates a DVD-compatible MPEG2 video file with audio from a text file input listing of pictures and effects. . dvd-menu Creates a simple DVD menu with buttons that link to MPEG2 files generated with dvd-slideshow or ones that you have created yourself. . gallery2slideshow Instead of a GUI to create slideshows, I already have almost everything set up from my web page that uses the Gallery program. I figured it wouldn't be that hard to just get a listing of all the images in a given album (sub-albums not supported!) and to generate an appropriate input file to dvd-slideshow. . jigl2slideshow Does the same thing as gallery2slideshow, but works on a jigl gallery ---- Out of all those, I think the last one sound by far the most interesting. They can even be combined given the last one simple makes an mpeg2 in the DVD format of your slideshow, which can then be used with menus made in one of the other tools too if desired. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 20:10:53 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:10:53 -0500 Subject: Video on Linux 101 (was Re:new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS) In-Reply-To: <20051210140408.3ccaaa3a.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051210094019.E12588@diamond.ss.org> <439B1B46.2080203@telly.org> <20051210140408.3ccaaa3a.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <439B364D.30903@telly.org> ted leslie wrote: >you have to see the video before you say this :) > > What I mean to say is that _any_ made-by-Microsoft video would be done using its latest-and-greatest video codec. This has the direct (and intended) effect of forcing Windows users to upgrade to the latest version of Media Player (which includes more DRM-enforcement stuff than previous versions). Another (happy for Microsoft) consequence is that it's harder to watch on an open source platform since it hasn't (yet) been reverse-engineered enough to enable native support. In any case, most Linux media players will at least be able to support the files's audio codec, meaning that even if you can't watch the file you should be able to listen to it like radio. I did listen to (a while of it) before posting. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 20:29:51 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:29:51 -0500 Subject: CNN.com Free Video In-Reply-To: <1134013789.4141.4.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1134013789.4141.4.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051210202951.GA20033@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 10:49:49PM -0500, Rick Tomaschuk wrote > I complained to CNN that I couldn't view their videos at CNN.com using > Linux but all I received was the standard auto reply below. Maybe if > enough people send complaints we can get their attention. I guess they > are more interested in using 'misery' to sell soap than any social > responsibility. I can play CNN videos, but it's flakey. Here's my setup... 1) install mplayer, including win32codecs so it can handle Media Player files 2) install mplayerplug-in Clicking on a video brings up a warning dialogue from CNN, about not being able to determine the version of Media Player. There are 3 buttons on the dialogue. Choose "Continue to video". It does play, sometimes over and over and over, forcing me to kill X. I did say that it was flakey. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 22:16:32 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:16:32 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A187D.5050304-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> Message-ID: <1134252992.14808.11.camel@gandalf> On Fri, 2005-12-09 at 18:51 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Anyone else here cut their teeth on Yggdrasil? > > - {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan My second Linux CD I purchased (after TransAmeritech) was an Yggdrasil live install CD which had kernel version 1.2.13. Back then, my 486 computer was so cramped for HD space on 4 MB of RAM that the only way I could look at X-Windows was from such a live CD. And back then I was using a CD-ROM which had its own IDE card, and was 1x speed. The window manager, I believe was twm (it could have been feeble, but I think not). But, as you might imagine, this was sloooow! I later sold the CD along with other stuff to another computer enthusiast. Now, I complain if I can't get Evolution to talk to my Palm Pilot under KDE. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 23:04:41 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:04:41 +0200 (IST) Subject: new microsoft software bug reporting tool could really result in higher quality at MS In-Reply-To: <20051210094019.E12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051209235331.6c0fdfbe.tleslie@tcn.net> <20051210094019.E12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I have been using both mplayer and xine to watch asf files without a problem. With what plugins if I may ask ? I use an older version of xine. Time to upgrade I guess. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 23:12:48 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:12:48 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210161019.GY3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051210161019.GY3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: One of the smallest default installs I managed was Slackware onto a 20M hard disk on a i386sx with 8MB ram. Text only of course. When the installation ran the disk was nowhere near full. I had one h**l of a time getting that going with no *nix installation experience and no books ;-) The smallest I managed was a single-floppy linux made from a 1.2.13 kernel that I patched with a gzipped root file system extractor by Petri Matilla (sp?) that I found somewhere. This booted a gzipped rootfs without a bootloader (to save space). I made that nearly ten years ago and I still find uses for it although I no longer have the toolchain to rebuild it ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 23:15:25 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:15:25 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <20051210161132.GZ3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> <20051210161132.GZ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Actually my first first Linux experience was with Lasermoon Linux (from UK), as demo live disk on a PC Windows (?) magazine cover disk. That was a live system with html, glimpse full text indexing and gui!! In 1996 or so ? I still have that cover disk somewhere. That system was very impressive. Think of the functionality of a contemporary Knoppix etc system on a cover CD 10 years ago. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 23:31:18 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:31:18 +0200 (IST) Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210193455.GA14075-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> <20051210193455.GA14075@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 12:33:13PM -0500, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: >> Have you looked at the Mac platform? > > No. I am not made of money, and I want control over my hardware and > software. I use Linux for a reason, and I wrote to this list for a > reason, too. Thanks you for your suggestion. Apropos money, there is a new (?) series of Mac laptops with prices directly aimed at competing with medium to low level x86 laptops. I am talking about G4 iBooks with 12" screen and airport. These are about $700. Opinions are welcome ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 23:49:37 2005 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:49:37 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <439B299B.7040202-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> Message-ID: <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> This strikes me as an effective way to join Randal Schwartz in ther category of "convicted criminal". You may have a good reason for what you are doing, it may even be essential to the company's future well- being, but if you are circumventing security policy and using unauthorized methods to access systems you have not explicitly been authorized to access, you are asking for trouble. Tom On 10-Dec-05, at 2:16 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Paul King wrote: >> Thanks to all who helped out. >> It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the >> router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the >> preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router >> I had >> lying around waiting to be used. > > It is, usually, possible to find standard, factory set usernames > and passwords by using google. Many would be surprised by learning > how many companies use them ;) Once I had a problem while working > for one company: I wanted to connect with the outside world by > using SSH. Well, there was no way to get out: the router blocked > port 22. I wanted to change its configuration but the response was: > what for do you need it? ;) Well.. after some thinking about the > situation I decided to not bother them anymore: just found out the > factory set password and did changes... > >> Paul King > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 00:04:43 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:04:43 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> Message-ID: <439B6D1B.3090209@istop.com> Tom Legrady wrote: Dont be silly, boy. These people have no idea what "security policy" means. Shut up and go to play with your toys. zb. > This strikes me as an effective way to join Randal Schwartz in ther > category of "convicted criminal". You may have a good reason for what > you are doing, it may even be essential to the company's future well- > being, but if you are circumventing security policy and using > unauthorized methods to access systems you have not explicitly been > authorized to access, you are asking for trouble. > > Tom > > On 10-Dec-05, at 2:16 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> Paul King wrote: >> >>> Thanks to all who helped out. >>> It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the >>> router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the >>> preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router I had >>> lying around waiting to be used. >> >> >> It is, usually, possible to find standard, factory set usernames and >> passwords by using google. Many would be surprised by learning how >> many companies use them ;) Once I had a problem while working for one >> company: I wanted to connect with the outside world by using SSH. >> Well, there was no way to get out: the router blocked port 22. I >> wanted to change its configuration but the response was: what for do >> you need it? ;) Well.. after some thinking about the situation I >> decided to not bother them anymore: just found out the factory set >> password and did changes... >> >>> Paul King >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 00:43:25 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:43:25 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <439B6D1B.3090209-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>; from zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:04:43PM -0500 References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> <439B6D1B.3090209@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051210194325.H12588@diamond.ss.org> I'm certain they don't know what security policy is but their lawyers do. Tom is correct. Simply because they are incompetent doesn't mean that you didn't violate the law by doing what you did. Worse you are bragging about it on a publicly accessible mailing list that is known to be indexed by google. Bill On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:04:43PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Tom Legrady wrote: > > > Dont be silly, boy. > > These people have no idea what "security policy" means. > > Shut up and go to play with your toys. > > zb. > > > > This strikes me as an effective way to join Randal Schwartz in ther > > category of "convicted criminal". You may have a good reason for what > > you are doing, it may even be essential to the company's future well- > > being, but if you are circumventing security policy and using > > unauthorized methods to access systems you have not explicitly been > > authorized to access, you are asking for trouble. > > > > Tom > > > > On 10-Dec-05, at 2:16 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > > > >> Paul King wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks to all who helped out. > >>> It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the > >>> router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the > >>> preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router I had > >>> lying around waiting to be used. > >> > >> > >> It is, usually, possible to find standard, factory set usernames and > >> passwords by using google. Many would be surprised by learning how > >> many companies use them ;) Once I had a problem while working for one > >> company: I wanted to connect with the outside world by using SSH. > >> Well, there was no way to get out: the router blocked port 22. I > >> wanted to change its configuration but the response was: what for do > >> you need it? ;) Well.. after some thinking about the situation I > >> decided to not bother them anymore: just found out the factory set > >> password and did changes... > >> > >>> Paul King > >> > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 00:58:46 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:58:46 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 01:31:18AM +0200 References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> <20051210193455.GA14075@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051210195846.I12588@diamond.ss.org> On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 01:31:18AM +0200, Peter wrote: > > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 12:33:13PM -0500, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > >> Have you looked at the Mac platform? > > > > No. I am not made of money, and I want control over my hardware and > > software. I use Linux for a reason, and I wrote to this list for a > > reason, too. Thanks you for your suggestion. > > Apropos money, there is a new (?) series of Mac laptops with prices > directly aimed at competing with medium to low level x86 laptops. I am > talking about G4 iBooks with 12" screen and airport. These are about > $700. Opinions are welcome ... > My sister bought 15" screen. 2.1 GHz pentium 4, dvd read/writer, 80G hd, 802.1 wireless, 1 year warranty etc... for $800 yesterday. So for a hundred dollars more she is getting a really nice laptop. I will take Apple seriously when it makes a comparable priced machine with comparable features. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 01:02:05 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:02:05 -0500 Subject: OT: Update re Computer Disposal by the City In-Reply-To: <4398AA60.6080102-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4398914C.1010708@pppoe.ca> <4398AA60.6080102@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051211010205.GB20033@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 04:49:20PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote > In such cases it's easier to toss than to reuse -- especially if > they don't know that modern Linux can work on older, slower PCs. Heck, people end up tossing almost new machines that came with XP. See http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/1797 for an explanation. I can see someone making a business out of this. Take brand new machines and resell them. Or how about a linux consultancy offering to set people up with linux after they've had such an experience? -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 03:22:10 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:22:10 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> <20051210161132.GZ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <439B9B62.8090006@sympatico.ca> Peter wrote: > > Actually my first first Linux experience was with Lasermoon Linux (from > UK), as demo live disk on a PC Windows (?) magazine cover disk. It was probably Personal Computer World magazine, the UK equivalent of Byte. I remember them being quite friendly with Lasermoon. ISTR being able to buy the full Linux manpage set, laser-printed and ringbound from Lasermoon. They also did their own highly proprietary distro (Linux-FT) that was the first to have POSIX certification. Sadly, their domain now points to a laser eye surgery splog. Stewart (who once ran a DEC machine that was set to swap to a 50MB DECTape. It's probably still trying to start that first job ...) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 03:25:42 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:25:42 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <20051210195846.I12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> <20051210193455.GA14075@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210195846.I12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439B9C36.1040406@sympatico.ca> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I will take Apple seriously when it makes a comparable priced machine > with comparable features. What, you mean poor build quality, ridiculous weight, measly battery life and crappy ergonomics? ;-) Stewart (still feelin' the love for his iBook G4) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 04:21:50 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:21:50 -0500 Subject: Authoring DVD Slideshows? In-Reply-To: <439B9C36.1040406-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051210083759.GA12112@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210100915.346070d9.hgibson@eol.ca> <20051210163424.GA13762@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <439B1159.8030202@utoronto.ca> <20051210193455.GA14075@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <20051210195846.I12588@diamond.ss.org> <439B9C36.1040406@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 12/10/05, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > I will take Apple seriously when it makes a comparable priced machine > > with comparable features. > > What, you mean poor build quality, ridiculous weight, measly battery > life and crappy ergonomics? ;-) Yeah... There's certainly some premium paid on Apple hardware, but that doesn't fall from it being inferior. The PowerBooks strike me as being a bit overpriced, tho I suppose I am not assessing enough of a premium value for the titanium, perhaps. The iBooks don't appear *vastly* lordly overpriced, and are very nicely engineered. The iMacs have a premium price; I'm not sure how to evaluate the value of the premium associated with them fitting the hardware into the LCD screen. The PowerMac G5's strike me as being rather overpriced, mind you... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 04:55:01 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:55:01 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix Message-ID: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> I was just watching a DVD-R movie on my PC. The cover in the video store warned that it was a DVD-R and that as long as the store player could play it and you could not, you would not get a refund. I tried playing it on vlc in Windows XP. About 1/3 into the movie, vlc crapped out. Tried twice restarting and playing it, it crapped out again. But not at exactly the same spot. Switching to vlc on FreeBSD 6.0, I finished watching the movie. While watching I paused it and after checking email and surfing a couple of sites, I returned to vlc and found it wouldn't continue. On restarting, it continued without problems. I even paused it again to see if it'll freeze - it continued playing without a hiccup. Maybe I should try it on my debian box but that will be pushing it as it is a 300MHz box with a 4Mb video card :-) vlc on Windows and *nix, what a diff :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 04:58:17 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:58:17 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <20051210194325.H12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> <439B6D1B.3090209@istop.com> <20051210194325.H12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439BB1E9.1050802@istop.com> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'm certain they don't know what security policy is but their lawyers do. Tom is correct. Simply because they are incompetent doesn't mean that you didn't violate the law by doing what you did. People, sometime when I read a Canadian speaking, I can not believe do I exist at all? Lawyers? Which layers? ;) They do not have layers ;) Take a breathe, drink at least cold water, go to walk. Go to piss. Do whatever, and stop be so terribly silly. PC messed up the minds of people to such an extend that I am not sure if any mind in some is left. zb. > Worse you are bragging about it on a publicly accessible mailing list that is known to be indexed by google. As above. > Bill > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:04:43PM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >>Tom Legrady wrote: >> >> >>Dont be silly, boy. >> >>These people have no idea what "security policy" means. >> >>Shut up and go to play with your toys. >> >>zb. >> >> >> >>>This strikes me as an effective way to join Randal Schwartz in ther >>>category of "convicted criminal". You may have a good reason for what >>>you are doing, it may even be essential to the company's future well- >>>being, but if you are circumventing security policy and using >>>unauthorized methods to access systems you have not explicitly been >>>authorized to access, you are asking for trouble. >>> >>>Tom >>> >>>On 10-Dec-05, at 2:16 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Paul King wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Thanks to all who helped out. >>>>>It turns out that there may have been a problem in configuring the >>>>>router. Since I can't seem to find the manual to reset it and get the >>>>>preconfigured username and password I am now using a newer router I had >>>>>lying around waiting to be used. >>>> >>>> >>>>It is, usually, possible to find standard, factory set usernames and >>>>passwords by using google. Many would be surprised by learning how >>>>many companies use them ;) Once I had a problem while working for one >>>>company: I wanted to connect with the outside world by using SSH. >>>>Well, there was no way to get out: the router blocked port 22. I >>>>wanted to change its configuration but the response was: what for do >>>>you need it? ;) Well.. after some thinking about the situation I >>>>decided to not bother them anymore: just found out the factory set >>>>password and did changes... >>>> >>>> >>>>>Paul King >>>> >>>>-- >>>>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>>>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Zbigniew Koziol, SoftQuake^(tm) Open Source Business Solutions Web Development, Linux, Web Mail Fax Voice Servers, Networking Consultations, Innovative Technologies Tel/Fax: 1-416-530-2780 Toronto, Canada, http://www.softquake.ca, info-lcEyp1+e+UdAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 05:11:22 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:11:22 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: <439BB1E9.1050802-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> <439B6D1B.3090209@istop.com> <20051210194325.H12588@diamond.ss.org> <439BB1E9.1050802@istop.com> Message-ID: On 12/10/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Take a breathe, drink at least cold water, go to walk. > > Go to piss. > > Do whatever, and stop be so terribly silly. PC messed up the minds of > people to such an extend that I am not sure if any mind in some is left. Man, you sound like some 12-year old l33t warez script-kiddie, bragging that you circumvented security policy to do what you wanted. It reminds me of the co-op sysadmin who once worked with me who thought that it was his right to read everyone's email because he was "root". Needless to say, he's not working with me anymore. Do us all a favour... unsubscribe from this list; we do not need your holier-than-thou attitude or personal attacks. pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 05:26:07 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:26:07 -0500 Subject: Intranet FTP up and running In-Reply-To: References: <1134234455.12317.7.camel@gandalf> <439B299B.7040202@istop.com> <76DC64B5-7ADE-4A7D-BD9A-F4532C8C9053@rogers.com> <439B6D1B.3090209@istop.com> <20051210194325.H12588@diamond.ss.org> <439BB1E9.1050802@istop.com> Message-ID: <439BB86F.1000906@istop.com> Paul Mora wrote: > On 12/10/05, *Zbigniew Koziol* > wrote: > > Take a breathe, drink at least cold water, go to walk. > > Go to piss. > > Do whatever, and stop be so terribly silly. PC messed up the minds of > people to such an extend that I am not sure if any mind in some is > left. > > > Man, you sound like some 12-year old l33t warez script-kiddie, bragging > that you circumvented security policy to do what you wanted. It reminds > me of the co-op sysadmin who once worked with me who thought that it was > his right to read everyone's email because he was "root". Needless to > say, he's not working with me anymore. > > Do us all a favour... unsubscribe from this list; we do not need your > holier-than-thou attitude or personal attacks. Another one... "Us" ? Who are "us" here? Take care and have a good night. zb. > pm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 11:51:20 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 06:51:20 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org wrote: > I was just watching a DVD-R movie on my PC. > The cover in the video store warned that it was a DVD-R > and that as long as the store player could play it and you could not, > you would not get a refund. My question is why is the video store selling or renting DVD-R to customers? Sounds to me like it might be a pirate copy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 13:26:44 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:26:44 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <439C12B8.9080106-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> Message-ID: <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> James Knott wrote: > My question is why is the video store selling or renting DVD-R to > customers? Sounds to me like it might be a pirate copy. I know it is not the standard for movies in North America, like VCDs in Asia can be legitimate. I have seen the odd DVD-R movie here, usually from Europe and not the big studios. These are not the Hollywood studio movies. Might it not be legitimate and not unusual in some countries for independent movies? These are not the pirated DVDs you see on the selling on the sidewalks, even they are usually DVDs, not DVD-Rs. In recent years, I have found the movies available in Toronto more diverse and there is much more choice as to origin, language and genre. I attribute this to the cultural and ethnic mix of the population as well as the sophistication. That said, in my experience pirated movies are sold more blatantly in Canada than some countries in Asia and I'm not trolling :-) My brother was in Asia and he asked a street vendor of pirated movies how was the latest movie starring a local actress (who has achieved international fame) selling. The film was released internationally. The vendor replied that the movie was so bad that he was not stocking it :-) There you are, supply and demand :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 14:24:34 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:24:34 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <439C2914.7040609-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439C36A2.7030008@istop.com> Meng Cheah wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> My question is why is the video store selling or renting DVD-R to >> customers? Sounds to me like it might be a pirate copy. > > > That said, in my experience pirated movies are sold more blatantly in > Canada than some countries in Asia and I'm not trolling :-) I do not know if it is more or less in Canada. I can only confirm that there is a huge market here for illegal movies, both on tape and DVD. And I even know which mostly nationality runs it. They are usually untochable. The media will cry about copyrights but the media is run mostly by them as well. The police will confiscate illegal copies but not from them. Well... thats Canada. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 15:36:00 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:36:00 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <439C36A2.7030008-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> <439C36A2.7030008@istop.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: > > James Knott wrote: > > > >> My question is why is the video store selling or renting DVD-R to > >> customers? Sounds to me like it might be a pirate copy. > > > > > > That said, in my experience pirated movies are sold more blatantly in > > Canada than some countries in Asia and I'm not trolling :-) > > I do not know if it is more or less in Canada. I can only confirm that > there is a huge market here for illegal movies, both on tape and DVD. > And I even know which mostly nationality runs it. They are usually > untochable. The media will cry about copyrights but the media is run > mostly by them as well. The police will confiscate illegal copies but > not from them. Well... thats Canada. If you are thinking of a nationality that might be associated with Pacific Mall, then perhaps you're wrong... There was a big raid/seizure a couple of weeks ago. If you look at a country that has over a billion people and probably dozens if not hundreds of subcultures, the notion that anything other than some fairly vague physical characteristics can be applied to all of them is just sheer silliness. At the very least, you have the two contradictory extremes of: a) Students willing to die in protests; b) Government officials prepared to order tanks driven over their people. Neither of those particular categories are terribly much likely to apply to emigrants to Canada. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 15:44:03 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:44:03 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> <439C36A2.7030008@istop.com> Message-ID: <439C4943.2050902@istop.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 12/11/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >>Meng Cheah wrote: >> >>>James Knott wrote: >>> >>> >>>>My question is why is the video store selling or renting DVD-R to >>>>customers? Sounds to me like it might be a pirate copy. >>> >>> >>>That said, in my experience pirated movies are sold more blatantly in >>>Canada than some countries in Asia and I'm not trolling :-) >> >>I do not know if it is more or less in Canada. I can only confirm that >>there is a huge market here for illegal movies, both on tape and DVD. >>And I even know which mostly nationality runs it. They are usually >>untochable. The media will cry about copyrights but the media is run >>mostly by them as well. The police will confiscate illegal copies but >>not from them. Well... thats Canada. > > > If you are thinking of a nationality that might be associated with > Pacific Mall, then perhaps you're wrong... There was a big > raid/seizure a couple of weeks ago. > > Thats a good example of where the police will go. The question is where they will not go. > If you look at a country that has over a billion people and probably > dozens if not hundreds of subcultures, the notion that anything other > than some fairly vague physical characteristics can be applied to all > of them is just sheer silliness. > > At the very least, you have the two contradictory extremes of: > a) Students willing to die in protests; > b) Government officials prepared to order tanks driven over their people. > > Neither of those particular categories are terribly much likely to > apply to emigrants to Canada. In principle, I do agree. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 15:49:04 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:49:04 -0500 Subject: Memory leak Message-ID: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> In a recent post Lennart Sorensen referred to memory leaks in Firefox Browser. What exactly is a memory leak in this context?? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 16:55:02 2005 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:55:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible at traffic intersections In-Reply-To: <439B9B62.8090006-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <439B9B62.8090006@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051211165502.37043.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> pulled shamelessly from digg.com: http://lobby4linux.com/WordPress/?p=63 "in the 200 or so people in that day that actually spoke to me about what I was doing, only 9 knew anything about Linux" So about 5% of people in the street (in Texas, ehem) have heard of Linux, not so terribly bad in my opinion. Fernando --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:04:56 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:04:56 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111049.04912.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>; from wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 10:49:04AM -0500 References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, and not freed when it is no longer used. It normally occurs in functions that allocate memory and return a pointer to that memory expecting the programmer to free it. It also occurs when the programmer free less than the amount allocated. The 'off by one' problem produces some of the most difficult memory leaks to track down and fix. I have also noticed the memory leak in firefox on Fedora core 4. Bill On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 10:49:04AM -0500, wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > In a recent post Lennart Sorensen referred to memory leaks in Firefox Browser. > What exactly is a memory leak in this context?? > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:28:13 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:28:13 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <20051211120456.J12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, > and not freed when it is no longer used. Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:31:13 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:31:13 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111228.13528.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <439C6261.8060302@rogers.com> wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, >> and not freed when it is no longer used. > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. Well, the first thing you want to do, is put a bit bucket under your computer. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:46:27 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:46:27 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: ; from cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 10:36:00AM -0500 References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> <439C36A2.7030008@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051211124627.K12588@diamond.ss.org> > > At the very least, you have the two contradictory extremes of: > a) Students willing to die in protests; > b) Government officials prepared to order tanks driven over their people. > > Neither of those particular categories are terribly much likely to > apply to emigrants to Canada. Strangely I worked with two people that were in Tienamin Square that week at two different places. It seems that many of the protestors that were marked by the police found their way to Canada because Canada accepted their refugee status while the U.S. was cozying up to China at the time and refused refugee status for them. I wouldn't be surprised if several thousand of the people in Tienamin Square ended up in Toronto. As for China being a unified ethnic group, remember that the North Western Chinese are caucasian, the south eastern have brown skin. There is at least three incompatible languages all of which are called Chinese. There is at least three major religion not including Christianity and Islam (both of which are minor religions in China). Now add the cultural diversity of China. If the Chinese are single ethnic group then so are the Europeans. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:55:08 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:55:08 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <439C6261.8060302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <439C6261.8060302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200512111255.08092.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:31 pm, James Knott wrote: > Well, the first thing you want to do, is put a bit bucket under your > computer. ;-) Is this the one with a carry handle or the one without it ?? It always surprises me how clever people can be. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:56:41 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:56:41 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111228.13528.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>; from wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:28:13PM -0500 References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> Detecting it is really a matter of running the application and noticing that it is using more and more memory as time goes on. There are some compilers that try to detect it but to my knowledge there is no full proof way doing that. Also simply because you are using more and more memory doen't mean you actually have a memory leak. For example a program I wrote kept a in memory btree structure to increase access speed. As information was looked and cached in the btree the amount of memory this app used increased. To an untrained user this looked exactly like a memory leak, but it wasn't since there was limits to the amount memory the app will use to cache the information and there was a way to retire unsed records. Correcting it is finding the allocation error and correcting the code. Some allocation errors are so subtle that it is almost impossible to do it. Most people faced with slow leaks will simply kill and restart the application once a day/week/month etc... Bill On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:28:13PM -0500, wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, > > and not freed when it is no longer used. > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 19:36:49 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:36:49 +0200 (IST) Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111049.04912.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > In a recent post Lennart Sorensen referred to memory leaks in Firefox Browser. > What exactly is a memory leak in this context?? I also saw something that may be a memory leak (or just severe fragmentation). The firefox (1.0.6) slows down noticeably after 2-3 days of continuous use with sometimes 10+ tabs open. Then it has to be stopped and restarted. Sometimes, rarely, it crashes like this. Since plugins were involved in all cases the Firefox may not be the only thing to blame. Swap consumption did not seem excessive in any instance (that did not crash). The crash took down the X11 server which then restarted. This points to resource exhaustion but it has happened too rarely to matter, and may be connected to rogue plugin code that does bad things only in combination with certain web sites (and maybe flash ads). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 19:46:14 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:46:14 +0200 (IST) Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111228.13528.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, >> and not freed when it is no longer used. > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. For a known application (like Firefox) it is known roughly how much memory it will use as a maximum (say +/- 100%). If one sees it growing beyond that, usually slowly and over lots of use, then it is suspect of a memory leak. The growth can be seen in system table data (from /proc). One way to look at it is with the 'top' program. Another is 'ps' with suitable arguments. There are other more specialized tools for tracing memory leaks (used mostly by programmers). For example right now my copy of FF uses 53M RES, 10M SHR and 86M VIRT after 63 hours up but it is not growing (the size change by a few megs depending on what pages I open and close). These figures are from 'top'. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 19:48:24 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:48:24 +0200 (IST) Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace (fwd) Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Peter wrote: >> >> Actually my first first Linux experience was with Lasermoon Linux (from UK), >> as demo live disk on a PC Windows (?) magazine cover disk. > > It was probably Personal Computer World magazine, the UK equivalent of Byte. > I remember them being quite friendly with Lasermoon. > > ISTR being able to buy the full Linux manpage set, laser-printed and > ringbound from Lasermoon. They also did their own highly proprietary distro > (Linux-FT) that was the first to have POSIX certification. > > Sadly, their domain now points to a laser eye surgery splog. Ok, I found the cd. It has a crack starting at the center hole so I'm afraid to mount it in a 52x drive. I'll try to run it some other day from a slow drive and get some screenshots. It was May 1996 PC Windows, and it was Linux FT 1.1 as you said. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 20:20:41 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:20:41 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <20051211124627.K12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> <439C36A2.7030008@istop.com> <20051211124627.K12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <439C8A19.7000000@pppoe.ca> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > As for China being a unified ethnic group, remember that the North Western Chinese are caucasian, the south eastern have brown skin. There is at least three incompatible languages all of which are called Chinese. There is at least three major religion not including Christianity and Islam (both of which are minor religions in China). Now add the cultural diversity of China. I know what you mean but generally, people in North America take caucasian to mean "white" just as they take semitic to mean "jewish" but Arabs are also semitic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 21:38:51 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:38:51 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: Another exiting and popular leak is a program that for some reason opens sockets, or file handles of some sort and never releases the pointer. The FD / point / socket desciptor are not very large, however in some contexts a program cannot have more than a certian number of file handles. Sometimes netstat and lsof can help detect these types of leaks. -Joseph- On 12/11/05, Peter wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, > >> and not freed when it is no longer used. > > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. > > For a known application (like Firefox) it is known roughly how much > memory it will use as a maximum (say +/- 100%). If one sees it growing > beyond that, usually slowly and over lots of use, then it is suspect of > a memory leak. The growth can be seen in system table data (from /proc). > One way to look at it is with the 'top' program. Another is 'ps' with > suitable arguments. There are other more specialized tools for tracing > memory leaks (used mostly by programmers). For example right now my copy > of FF uses 53M RES, 10M SHR and 86M VIRT after 63 hours up but it is not > growing (the size change by a few megs depending on what pages I open > and close). These figures are from 'top'. > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 23:35:10 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:35:10 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: ; from josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 04:38:51PM -0500 References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051211183510.M12588@diamond.ss.org> Shared memory is also a source of memory leaks. A program that doesn't deallocate the memory before exiting will cause that memory to stick around until reboot. I have seen some weird memory leaks in multithreaded applications. A strange situation I remember was memory was allocated and shared by the threads via a global pointer. Sometimes a thread would allocate memory and use a global pointer, and before it was deallocated another thread would allocate memory and trash the first pointer. The memory the first pointer was pointing to is now a memory leak, but surprisingly the program didn't crash because of this. Some weird data ended up in Oracle though. The funny thing about this was the memory leak wasn't severe enough to notice, and it took weeks to figure out why garbage was being dumped into the database, because stepping through the debugger didn't exhibit this problem. The joys of maintaining other peoples code. Bill On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 04:38:51PM -0500, Joseph Kubik wrote: > Another exiting and popular leak is a program that for some reason > opens sockets, or file handles of some sort and never releases the > pointer. The FD / point / socket desciptor are not very large, however > in some contexts a program cannot have more than a certian number of > file handles. > Sometimes netstat and lsof can help detect these types of leaks. > -Joseph- > > On 12/11/05, Peter wrote: > > > > On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:04 pm, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >> Memory that is allocated using malloc or similar memory allocation system, > > >> and not freed when it is no longer used. > > > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > > > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. > > > > For a known application (like Firefox) it is known roughly how much > > memory it will use as a maximum (say +/- 100%). If one sees it growing > > beyond that, usually slowly and over lots of use, then it is suspect of > > a memory leak. The growth can be seen in system table data (from /proc). > > One way to look at it is with the 'top' program. Another is 'ps' with > > suitable arguments. There are other more specialized tools for tracing > > memory leaks (used mostly by programmers). For example right now my copy > > of FF uses 53M RES, 10M SHR and 86M VIRT after 63 hours up but it is not > > growing (the size change by a few megs depending on what pages I open > > and close). These figures are from 'top'. > > > > Peter > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 00:33:34 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 11 Dec 2005 19:33:34 -0500 Subject: Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping [was Re:Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace] In-Reply-To: References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <20051209182520.GV3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4399E64C.7020700@pobox.com> Message-ID: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" writes: > | From: Tim Writer > > | People used to say Emacs stands for Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping! > | That was in the days of 8MB Sun3s. > > Actually, we said it in the days before Sun existed. I think that > first heard it, contemptuously, from Peter Fraser, the main author of > QED for GCOS. > > I first tried (Gosling's) EMACS in in the days of 8MB VAX departmental > servers. Unaffordable, in my opinion. > > At about that time I got a Kaypro II which came bundled with an EMACS > subset, Perfect Writer (a relabelled MINCE). The Kaypro had 64K of > RAM and two floppy drives. That got me (my fingers) into the EMACS > habit. > > I now use JOVE as my main editor. It is an EMACS subset developed on > a PDP-11 (64K of RAM for code plus 64K for data). It is bigger now. > Compiled for x86_64: > text data bss dec hex filename > 137133 11076 299276 447485 6d3fd /usr/bin/jove > 1019061 2482692 0 3501753 356eb9 /usr/bin/emacs > (JOVE's BSS is mostly pre-allocated buffer cache.) I used Jove for a while too. > The good parts of EMACS are not fat. I use Xemacs now because there are features of full Emacs that I like and, by comparison with many modern apps, it's not at all bloated. I couldn't live without Gnus, for example. > BTW, I think that it is wonderful that I can use the same application > (JOVE) for more than 20 years. Through umpteen changes to the > platform. I've used cat(1) for just over 30 years now. I think it's wonderful that I can use much of the same UNIX toolset that I learned in 1983. I think this is one of the most important, yet often overlooked benefits, of UNIX and UNIX-like systems. Skills don't become obsolete every few years; instead, you can continue to build on a broad, stable foundation. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 00:41:35 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 11 Dec 2005 19:41:35 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A3256.4060700-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3256.4060700@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Jamon Camisso writes: > Can mbox folders become corrupted? I very much doubt it unless there is > filesystem corruption? Of course. Some years back, uw-imap (which used mbox format) would routinely corrupt them. Fortunately, it was fairly easy to repair them, with minimal loss of e-mail, using a text editor. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 00:47:59 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 11 Dec 2005 19:47:59 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439B2142.4000803-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> <439AC1E5.2020208@rogers.com> <20051210093856.D12588@diamond.ss.org> <439B2142.4000803@rogers.com> Message-ID: James Knott writes: > billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Incidentally, a few years ago, I was supporting users on OS/2, Windows > >> 95 and NT. One thing I found is that once an OS/2 user was set up and > >> running, I almost never heard from them again. W95 generated many > >> problems and while NT was much better than W95, it still wasn't anywhere > >> near as good as OS/2. > >> > > OS/2 had its share of weird problems, but to its defence it did successfully solve the 'stupid user' problem without sacrificing usability. Did you know that there was a way to add code to the kernel at configuration time. > > I haven't done that, but there were a lot of things you could do. OS/2 > supported hardware profiles long before Windows did. > > Just this morning, during breakfast with some friends, one of OS/2's > benefits came up. I was mentioning how I was recently working on a > Windows problem, where about 150 GB of a 750 GB drive was unusable on a > Windows server, because of the number of files was maxed out, despite > all the free space. That would have never happened on OS/2 with HPFS, > as there's no concept of clusters. And of course, in Linux, we'd just > change the number of inodes. Also, the mkfs defaults are such that it's pretty rare to run out of inodes on Linux. On a related note, I'm constantly astonished Windows still doesn't have a file system that doesn't need regular defragging to maintain good performance. Afterall, BSD FFS was around when MS began work on NT and, given the BSD licence, they could have just used it. It seems to me that MS has a really bad case of the NIH syndrome. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 00:55:28 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 11 Dec 2005 19:55:28 -0500 Subject: openldap In-Reply-To: <768631270512101035j21357325of570b7aaefc2baba-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <768631270512101035j21357325of570b7aaefc2baba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ansar Mohammed writes: > Is anyone on the list using openldap or any other ldap based system for > authentication? Yes. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 01:02:21 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:02:21 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: References: <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <4399233A.3030900@sympatico.ca> <20051209085959.A8035@diamond.ss.org> <50332.207.188.65.194.1134138236.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4399973D.3070701@telly.org> <439A1EE8.9060807@rogers.com> <20051210011842.GA2176@node1.opengeometry.net> <439A3D27.6060001@rogers.com> <20051210033825.GA2593@node1.opengeometry.net> <439AC1E5.2020208@rogers.com> <20051210093856.D12588@diamond.ss.org> <439B2142.4000803@rogers.com> Message-ID: <439CCC1D.1070405@rogers.com> Tim Writer wrote: > James Knott writes: > >> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >>>> Incidentally, a few years ago, I was supporting users on OS/2, Windows >>>> 95 and NT. One thing I found is that once an OS/2 user was set up and >>>> running, I almost never heard from them again. W95 generated many >>>> problems and while NT was much better than W95, it still wasn't anywhere >>>> near as good as OS/2. >>>> >>> OS/2 had its share of weird problems, but to its defence it did successfully solve the 'stupid user' problem without sacrificing usability. Did you know that there was a way to add code to the kernel at configuration time. >> I haven't done that, but there were a lot of things you could do. OS/2 >> supported hardware profiles long before Windows did. >> >> Just this morning, during breakfast with some friends, one of OS/2's >> benefits came up. I was mentioning how I was recently working on a >> Windows problem, where about 150 GB of a 750 GB drive was unusable on a >> Windows server, because of the number of files was maxed out, despite >> all the free space. That would have never happened on OS/2 with HPFS, >> as there's no concept of clusters. And of course, in Linux, we'd just >> change the number of inodes. > > Also, the mkfs defaults are such that it's pretty rare to run out of inodes on > Linux. > > On a related note, I'm constantly astonished Windows still doesn't have a > file system that doesn't need regular defragging to maintain good > performance. Afterall, BSD FFS was around when MS began work on NT and, given > the BSD licence, they could have just used it. It seems to me that MS has a > really bad case of the NIH syndrome. > It's worse than that HPFS was developed by MS, yet they dropped support for it, prior to NT 4, IIRC. It resists fragmentation, doesn't use cluster and has really fast file location. It also supported 64 KB of file attributes!. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 01:24:23 2005 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:24:23 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <20051211183510.M12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211183510.M12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: You don't need outside assistance to encounter weird bugs, I've certainly managed it all by myself, at times. Tom On 11-Dec-05, at 6:35 PM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I have seen some weird memory leaks .......... > > The joys of maintaining other peoples code. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 01:39:53 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:39:53 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <439C2914.7040609-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439CD4E9.3070905@telly.org> Meng Cheah wrote: > That said, in my experience pirated movies are sold more blatantly in > Canada than some countries in Asia and I'm not trolling :-) There's nothing I've ever seen in Canada that comes close to Sungei Wang Plaza in Kuala Lumpur. Multiple open storefronts reveal rows upon rows of three-ring binders, each page in which is a movie or PC software package that someone can order -- the DVD or VCD is burned while-you-wait. Cost, I recall, is about $2 each. The vendors did not pass judgement on anything, good or bad they sold it all. Hollywood, Bollywood, European, Japanese anime, Hong Kong fight films. If you looked hard enough there might even be a few Malaysian titles. The only think missing was a porn selection. > My brother was in Asia and he asked a street vendor of pirated movies > how was the latest movie starring a local actress (who has achieved > international fame) selling. The film was released internationally. > The vendor replied that the movie was so bad that he was not stocking > it :-) Street vendors have limited inventory that they can lug around. ;-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 02:06:58 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:06:58 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: ; from legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 08:24:23PM -0500 References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211183510.M12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051211210658.N12588@diamond.ss.org> Ya I remember a malloc/free bug. It wasn't a memory leak, but it was still a cute bug I could never figure out how to fix. It didn't affect the performance so it was left in. Imagin a linked list in a ring where data is looked up. Occasionally the data expired, and was marked as deleted until it could be cleaned up. In the clean up procedure the record was unlinked and the memory freed. Now you could never free all the records so even if all of them were marked as deleted, one record needed to be kept. My bug was when there was an even number of records, one record would be left. When there was a od number of records two records would be left. The last record had to wait for the next cleanup. I can only create really weird bugs in perl and shell scripts. C, I understand fundemantally how the compiler is suppose to work so my screw ups are normally 'implementation dependancies' I have learned to avoid. My coding in C look very amateurish because of that. Bill On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 08:24:23PM -0500, Tom Legrady wrote: > You don't need outside assistance to encounter weird bugs, I've > certainly managed it all by myself, at times. > > Tom > > On 11-Dec-05, at 6:35 PM, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > I have seen some weird memory leaks .......... > > > > The joys of maintaining other peoples code. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 02:57:32 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:57:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting Message-ID: Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to the next meeting, Dec 13? Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 03:17:38 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:17:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50462.207.188.65.194.1134357458.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Thanks for putting up this request, Robert. I'm doing the lecture that evening, so if someone does have a projector that they can loan, could I pick it up some time on Moday or early Tuesday so I can test it out with my laptop? Thanks - Peter > Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to the > next meeting, Dec 13? > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 > Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 04:10:59 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 23:10:59 -0500 Subject: Playing DVDs on Windows and *nix In-Reply-To: <439CD4E9.3070905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <80af07bb0e97d0cde375a1745cd0ced8@pppoe.ca> <439C12B8.9080106@rogers.com> <439C2914.7040609@pppoe.ca> <439CD4E9.3070905@telly.org> Message-ID: <439CF853.40101@pppoe.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > There's nothing I've ever seen in Canada that comes close to Sungei Wang > Plaza in Kuala Lumpur. Multiple open storefronts reveal rows upon rows > of three-ring binders, each page in which is a movie or PC software > package that someone can order -- the DVD or VCD is burned > while-you-wait. Cost, I recall, is about $2 each. For blatancy, take a walk along a main street(which shall remain unnamed) near where we hold our meetings. Right on the side walk, you don't even have to step inside a store. I didn't see any sidewalk sales in Vancouver but there are stores. The stores in shopping complexes in Malaysia have been hit hard by enforcement officers. The action has moved to the pasar malams (night flea markets) which are held usually weekly. The officers may check the same flea market 3 times in a night. Some vendors have opened stores with legitimate products on display as a front and have the 3-ring binders. True but sad/funny: 4 enforcement officers were charged with corruption. Their bail money was put up by the pirates. This was reported in the local media. In Toronto, until recently, when there was mention of pirated DVDs in the media, Malaysia or Asia were usually mentioned. Only this year was there admission that there was a local industry which I think is ingenuous at best. What did the media and authorities think was happening? Smuggling thousands of DVDs into Canada or sending 1 file and producing thousands of DVDs locally? Perhaps that was what was meant by "Thats a good example of where the police will go. The question is where they will not go." > The vendors did not pass judgement on anything, good or bad they sold it > all. Hollywood, Bollywood, European, Japanese anime, Hong Kong fight > films. If you looked hard enough there might even be a few Malaysian > titles. The only think missing was a porn selection. Evan, all you had to do was ask :-) Porn is hidden and command a higher price. The penalties for porn are much higher. There are no pirated Malaysian movies to speak of. The reason is the government is trying to encourage the local film industry. The pirates do not want/need to further aggravate the situation. Malaysian movies is a minor niche market, not withstanding the Toronto REEL Asian International Film Festival highlighting Malaysia this year. One negative effect of protecting the local industry is that they suck big time. I purchased legitimate copies of 2 movies to find that I could not even watch it all the way. Sections just were not there/messed up. >>My brother was in Asia and he asked a street vendor of pirated movies >>how was the latest movie starring a local actress (who has achieved >>international fame) selling. The film was released internationally. >>The vendor replied that the movie was so bad that he was not stocking >>it :-) > > > Street vendors have limited inventory that they can lug around. ;-) The guy was probably pissed off with Michelle Yeoh, a hometown girl :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 04:39:59 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 23:39:59 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to > the next meeting, Dec 13? Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 06:03:11 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 01:03:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: <439CFF1F.1040406-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: > Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like > http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx > and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? > > Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) TomsHardware was running a howto on these last year around this time, and I decided to make one over the christmas. So I bought the overhead on ebay, but failed to find an LCD for a reasonable price (< $150), not on ebay, not on craigslist, and finally lost interest. The overhead is sitting in my room to be sold on ebay sometime, but if someone has the LCD, and want to try it out, drop me a line. I may even help out with the project :). Cheers, --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 10:06:52 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (Jerome Macaranas) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:06:52 +0800 Subject: linux problem Message-ID: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> hi all, I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only contents for dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... for some reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is pingable.. but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. thanks, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 12:18:35 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:18:35 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439D6A9B.9040200@pppoe.ca> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: >>Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like >>http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx >>and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? >> >>Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) > > > TomsHardware was running a howto on these last year around this > time, and I decided to make one over the christmas. So I bought > the overhead on ebay, but failed to find an LCD for a reasonable > price (< $150), not on ebay, not on craigslist, and finally lost > interest. The overhead is sitting in my room to be sold on ebay > sometime, but if someone has the LCD, and want to try it out, > drop me a line. I may even help out with the project :). I was thinking it may be a TLUG project if we need a projector. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 12:24:05 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:24:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: <439D6A9B.9040200-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> <439D6A9B.9040200@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: > Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like > >>http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx > >>and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? > >> > >>Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) > > > > > > TomsHardware was running a howto on these last year around this > > time, and I decided to make one over the christmas. So I bought > > the overhead on ebay, but failed to find an LCD for a reasonable > > price (< $150), not on ebay, not on craigslist, and finally lost > > interest. The overhead is sitting in my room to be sold on ebay > > sometime, but if someone has the LCD, and want to try it out, > > drop me a line. I may even help out with the project :). > > I was thinking it may be a TLUG project if we need a projector. You mean somebody is willing to carry that overhead thing around every month? --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 13:03:36 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:03:36 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> <439D6A9B.9040200@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439D7528.9040009@pppoe.ca> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: > > >>Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: >>> >>>>Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like >>>>http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx >>>>and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? >>>> >>>>Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) >>> >>> >>>TomsHardware was running a howto on these last year around this >>>time, and I decided to make one over the christmas. So I bought >>>the overhead on ebay, but failed to find an LCD for a reasonable >>>price (< $150), not on ebay, not on craigslist, and finally lost >>>interest. The overhead is sitting in my room to be sold on ebay >>>sometime, but if someone has the LCD, and want to try it out, >>>drop me a line. I may even help out with the project :). >> >>I was thinking it may be a TLUG project if we need a projector. > > > You mean somebody is willing to carry that overhead thing around > every month? Looks like getting storage at UoT is not that easy :-) I stand corrected. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 13:44:44 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:44:44 -0500 Subject: linux problem In-Reply-To: <200512121806.52382.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <20051212134444.GA4378@ettin> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 06:06:52PM +0800, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only contents for >dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... for some >reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is pingable.. >but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already >checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. Iptables? Disk space? Is httpd and ssh available locally (e.g. ssh localhost)? -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 102 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 14:37:58 2005 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:37:58 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: <439CFF1F.1040406-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <439D8B46.60700@golden.net> Meng Cheah wrote: > Robert Brockway wrote: > >> Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to >> the next meeting, Dec 13? > > > Has anyone any experience with DIY LCD projectors like > http://inventgeek.com/Projects/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.aspx > and http://lumenlab.com/ ? Or anything similar? > > Just wondering, especially now that we have our HW list :-) > Kewl ! Thanks for the link. I hadn't thought about making my own. I'm finishing my basement & have a home theater laid out. I'll be making the PVR & now the projector. :-) John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 15:05:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:05:18 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <1134252992.14808.11.camel@gandalf> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> <1134252992.14808.11.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <20051212150518.GG3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 05:16:32PM -0500, Paul King wrote: > My second Linux CD I purchased (after TransAmeritech) was an Yggdrasil > live install CD which had kernel version 1.2.13. Back then, my 486 > computer was so cramped for HD space on 4 MB of RAM that the only way I > could look at X-Windows was from such a live CD. And back then I was > using a CD-ROM which had its own IDE card, and was 1x speed. The window > manager, I believe was twm (it could have been feeble, but I think not). > But, as you might imagine, this was sloooow! I later sold the CD along > with other stuff to another computer enthusiast. It probably wasn't ide. It was probably either teac, mitsubi or creative labs interface. > Now, I complain if I can't get Evolution to talk to my Palm Pilot under > KDE. We are so spoiled. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 15:21:42 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:21:42 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111228.13528.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051212152142.GI3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:28:13PM -0500, wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > Now that I know what a memory leak is, my next question is: > How does one know that one has a leak and how can one correct it. You can sometimes use a malloc debug library, which wraps all your malloc and free calls and keeps counts of everything. When the program exists it print out statistics about how much was allocated and how much was freed and which places the the allocation that wasn't freed. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 15:20:29 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:20:29 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111049.04912.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051212152029.GH3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 10:49:04AM -0500, wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > In a recent post Lennart Sorensen referred to memory leaks in Firefox Browser. > What exactly is a memory leak in this context?? A chunk of code allocating some memory and then forgetting to free it when it is done with it. The longer the program runs the more memory it is using. It also happens a lot with X applications because some people don't pay attension to the docs that say when you use function x to ask the X server for something, it will allocate some memory and pass the data to you and then you must free it. Many people figure if they didn't allocate it, they don't need to free it. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 15:29:10 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:29:10 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <20051211125641.L12588-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051212152910.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:56:41PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > Detecting it is really a matter of running the application and noticing that it is using more and more memory as time goes on. There are some compilers that try to detect it but to my knowledge there is no full proof way doing that. > > Also simply because you are using more and more memory doen't mean you actually have a memory leak. For example a program I wrote kept a in memory btree structure to increase access speed. As information was looked and cached in the btree the amount of memory this app used increased. To an untrained user this looked exactly like a memory leak, but it wasn't since there was limits to the amount memory the app will use to cache the information and there was a way to retire unsed records. > > Correcting it is finding the allocation error and correcting the code. Some allocation errors are so subtle that it is almost impossible to do it. > > Most people faced with slow leaks will simply kill and restart the application once a day/week/month etc... I remember using purify at university on solaris a few times. It is absolutely amazing for doing such things (and other array bounds checks and such). It appears it is now available for linux, and is only about $8000 per license. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 15:57:46 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:57:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <20051212152910.GJ3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051212152910.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:56:41PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Detecting it is really a matter of running the application > > and noticing that it is using more and more memory as time > > goes on. There are some compilers that try to detect it but > > to my knowledge there is no full proof way doing that. Note that if the so-called size of the process keeps increasing over time, it does not necessarily mean that the application is leaking. That's in fact a known phenamenon about Firefox. The problem is that malloc() implementation for not-so-large pieces of memory (like < 4kb) uses the heap for allocation. If there's not enough space available in the heap, it will use the system call brk(2) to increase the size of the heap of the process. Now note that the heap is a linear chunk in the address space of the process, it grows at the end, and shrink at the end. So at free() time, if a minimum of memory at the *end* of the heap is free, it will be returned to the system, reducing the size of the process. Now consider the following situation: you open a bunch of very very long pages in Firefox. All the laying out of text, javascripts, etc, eats up a good 100MB of your memory, so the firefox process grows to something like 120MB. Now you open a tab, loading a very small page in it. The memory allocations for this small page most probably happen to be after the 100MB allocations for your long pages. Now you close all the long pages, the memory they have allocated using malloc() is free()d and returned to the libc, but since the memory for the small page is not free()d yet, you have some allocated memory at the end of your heap, which has a good 101MB of size now. So even though Firefox have free()d 100MB of the 101MB, it will *not* be returned to the system and the size of the firefox process will remain around 121MB. Now this is not the end of the story, there's the issue of fragmentation too. Left as an exercise. There are several attempts to fix these problems. The recent g_slice allocated in glib is one of them: http://www.mail-archive.com/gtk-devel-list-rDKQcyrBJuzYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org/msg01723.html The idea behind this and other similar allocators is that instead of allocating from the heap, the serve memory allocations of the same size from a small pool allocated specifically for slices of that range of size. These pools on the other hand, are around a pagesize (4kb) in size and so are allocated using mmap(2), not brk(2). mmap()ed allocations can be freed and returned to system at any time, unlike heap memory. > I remember using purify at university on solaris a few times. > It is absolutely amazing for doing such things (and other array > bounds checks and such). It appears it is now available for > linux, and is only about $8000 per license. :) Valgrind is an amazing Free Software project doing along the same lines as purify. --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 16:15:22 2005 From: behdad-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:15:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051212152910.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: A good read about these issues: http://live.gnome.org/MemoryReduction On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, it was written: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 12:56:41PM -0500, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > Detecting it is really a matter of running the application > > > and noticing that it is using more and more memory as time > > > goes on. There are some compilers that try to detect it but > > > to my knowledge there is no full proof way doing that. > > Note that if the so-called size of the process keeps increasing > over time, it does not necessarily mean that the application is > leaking. That's in fact a known phenamenon about Firefox. The > problem is that malloc() implementation for not-so-large pieces > of memory (like < 4kb) uses the heap for allocation. If there's > not enough space available in the heap, it will use the system > call brk(2) to increase the size of the heap of the process. Now > note that the heap is a linear chunk in the address space of the > process, it grows at the end, and shrink at the end. So at > free() time, if a minimum of memory at the *end* of the heap is > free, it will be returned to the system, reducing the size of the > process. > > Now consider the following situation: you open a bunch of very > very long pages in Firefox. All the laying out of text, > javascripts, etc, eats up a good 100MB of your memory, so the > firefox process grows to something like 120MB. Now you open a > tab, loading a very small page in it. The memory allocations for > this small page most probably happen to be after the 100MB > allocations for your long pages. Now you close all the long > pages, the memory they have allocated using malloc() is free()d > and returned to the libc, but since the memory for the small page > is not free()d yet, you have some allocated memory at the end of > your heap, which has a good 101MB of size now. So even though > Firefox have free()d 100MB of the 101MB, it will *not* be > returned to the system and the size of the firefox process will > remain around 121MB. > > Now this is not the end of the story, there's the issue of > fragmentation too. Left as an exercise. > > There are several attempts to fix these problems. The recent > g_slice allocated in glib is one of them: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/gtk-devel-list-rDKQcyrBJuzYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org/msg01723.html > > The idea behind this and other similar allocators is that instead > of allocating from the heap, the serve memory allocations of the > same size from a small pool allocated specifically for slices of > that range of size. These pools on the other hand, are around a > pagesize (4kb) in size and so are allocated using mmap(2), not > brk(2). mmap()ed allocations can be freed and returned to system > at any time, unlike heap memory. > > > > I remember using purify at university on solaris a few times. > > It is absolutely amazing for doing such things (and other array > > bounds checks and such). It appears it is now available for > > linux, and is only about $8000 per license. :) > > Valgrind is an amazing Free Software project doing along the same > lines as purify. > > > --behdad > http://behdad.org/ > > "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" > -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > --behdad http://behdad.org/ "Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill" -- Dan Bern, "New American Language" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 16:33:25 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:33:25 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/11/05, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to the > next meeting, Dec 13? I can bring the usual one; what I can't do is to commit to making it available today. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 16:53:47 2005 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:53:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux problem In-Reply-To: <200512121806.52382.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <20051212165347.92745.qmail@web60113.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerome Macaranas wrote: > hi all, > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves > locally only contents for > dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with > 2G memory..... for some > reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... > the server is pingable.. > but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, > SSH... Ive already > checked the logs... but didn't saw anything > unusual.. > just off the top of my head: - check if services are running: service httpd status, ps aux|grep httpd - check if they are listening netstat -l - restart them, restart network: service httpd restart, service network restart if there's an error in the operation it will show in the logs - check mem space (HD and RAM) and CPU df, free, top - see if you can connect locally to services - revire firewall iptables -l - review all relevant logs, not just /var/log/messages but for example /var/log/secure, /var/log/httpd etc hope it helps, Fernando > thanks, > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 16:55:37 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:55:37 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051212152910.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051212165537.GK3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:57:46AM -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Valgrind is an amazing Free Software project doing along the same > lines as purify. I will keep that in mind next time I am chasing a memory bug. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 18:52:13 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:52:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: <439D7528.9040009-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <439CFF1F.1040406@pppoe.ca> <439D6A9B.9040200@pppoe.ca> <439D7528.9040009@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Meng Cheah wrote: > Looks like getting storage at UoT is not that easy :-) > I stand corrected. Most clubs have to confront the problem of where to keep club owned gear when the club is not meeting (ie, almost all of the time). In reality finding storage at someone's home is usually not a big deal. I'd offer my place but, a) I'm in Mississauga b) I've not been getting to meetings much lately. Surely someone close by could keep a club owned OHP. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 18:55:47 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:55:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 12/11/05, Robert Brockway wrote: >> Hi all. Is someone able to commit to bringing an overhead project to the >> next meeting, Dec 13? > > I can bring the usual one; what I can't do is to commit to making it > available today. I don't think I've ever seen it fail to work with a laptop. Besides with a room full of Linux geeks the modelines in X wouldn't stand a chance :) /me ticks "project for Dec 13 meeting" off to do list. Now that we have a projector I can't do the silly joke I was going to do... Oh I'll do it anyway... "We need to go to red alert?!?! Well we can do it, but we'd need to change the bulb". Apologies to Red Dwarf. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 19:04:05 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:04:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512121806.52382.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > hi all, > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only contents for > dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... for some > reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is pingable.. > but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already > checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. If the box becomes unavailable how are you getting in to checkout the logs? If it is after a reboot then the horse has bolted - you need to capture important data right after the system has the problem. Can you checkout the console when this is happening? If it is not easy to get to the keyboard & monitor consider setting up a serial console - this is great for capturing console output for later. Also checkout dmesg. Turn all the logs you can to debug. This will add load to the server. If the box is in production watch the system load. How long does the system last before it suffers this problem? Minutes, days, weeks? Google for cross references to your hardware, kernel, filesystems, etc and watch for others reporting similar problems. Also, it's better to be more specific with the title. Some people may not checkout the thread based on the title, or you may get the wrong people doing so (ie, those without enough experience). If you used a subject line of something like "Intermittent Connectivity Problem" (which I have) you may tend to draw in the right audience more easily. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 19:06:57 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:06:57 -0500 Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439DCA51.2020000@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: > > I don't think I've ever seen it fail to work with a laptop. Didn't it not work with the MythTV's presenter's laptop during the summer? cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 19:09:16 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:09:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Admin] Overhead Projector required for meeting In-Reply-To: <439DCA51.2020000-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <439DCA51.2020000@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Robert Brockway wrote: >> >> I don't think I've ever seen it fail to work with a laptop. > > Didn't it not work with the MythTV's presenter's laptop during the summer? Oh, I wasn't at that meeting. Doh. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 20:20:12 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:20:12 -0500 Subject: Linux still largely invisible in the marketplace In-Reply-To: <439A187D.5050304-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1134066880.4561.19.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <4398FC59.5030905@telly.org> <1134140779.4137.21.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <20051209183105.GW3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051209175555.A12588@diamond.ss.org> <439A187D.5050304@telly.org> Message-ID: <439DDB7C.7010500@interlog.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Anyone else here cut their teeth on Yggdrasil? I did. Some coworkers told me about Linux. I had a little exposure to unix since the company I was working had some Sun OS machines. I picked up a copy of Yggdrasil Plug-and-Play Linux Fall 1994 Revision C from the UofT bookstore around November of '94. It was a slim book with a boot floppy and a CD in the back and had kernel 1.1.47 on it. In March of 1995 I upgraded my machine from a '386 to a '486. This new machine used a SCSI hard drive with an Adaptec 2940 controller. Via Usenet I found a place hosted on a navy.mil server that had experimental drivers for the 2940 controller and a 1.2 Linux kernel. I learned very early on how to patch a Linux kernel. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 20:43:13 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:43:13 -0500 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Robert Brockway wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only > contents for > > dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... for > some > > reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is > pingable.. > > but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already > > checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. In addition to all of the good things Rob mentioned, have you VACUUMed your Postgres database recently? I experienced a 'knee' of performance on one of my database servers recently, and did a VACUUM that took 45 minutes to complete. After that, performance was almost two orders of magnitude better. There used to be a daily VACUUM on that server but due to some other changes it was disabled. There is now a daily VACUUM on all of my database servers. And of course, when all else fails, check what the log files are saying. If you use Nagios to monitor the server (from another box, obviously) you should get some kind of warning that the system is degrading. Looks like you've got some fun investigative work ahead of you. Alex If the box becomes unavailable how are you getting in to checkout the > logs? If it is after a reboot then the horse has bolted - you need to > capture important data right after the system has the problem. > > Can you checkout the console when this is happening? If it is not easy to > get to the keyboard & monitor consider setting up a serial console - this > is great for capturing console output for later. Also checkout dmesg. > > Turn all the logs you can to debug. This will add load to the server. If > the box is in production watch the system load. > > How long does the system last before it suffers this problem? Minutes, > days, weeks? > > Google for cross references to your hardware, kernel, filesystems, etc and > watch for others reporting similar problems. > > Also, it's better to be more specific with the title. Some people may not > checkout the thread based on the title, or you may get the wrong people > doing so (ie, those without enough experience). If you used a subject > line of something like "Intermittent Connectivity Problem" (which I have) > you may tend to draw in the right audience more easily. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 > Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 21:35:50 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:35:50 -0500 Subject: linux problem In-Reply-To: <200512121806.52382.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200512121635.51005.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 12, 2005 05:06, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > hi all, > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only > contents for dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with > 2G memory..... for some reason the box just suddenly became > unavailable... the server is pingable.. but services running on it > is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already checked the logs... but > didn't saw anything unusual.. Make sure you haven't run out of disk space on a partition, e.g. /var. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 22:43:08 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:43:08 -0500 Subject: How do I turn off Flash in Firefox! Message-ID: <20051212224308.GA4225@node1.opengeometry.net> How do I turn on and turn off Flash support in Firefox, just like I can with Java and Javascript? I can remove Flash files from 'plugins' directory, but sometimes I need Flash on. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 22:59:03 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 12 Dec 2005 17:59:03 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <20051212165537.GK3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211120456.J12588@diamond.ss.org> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051211125641.L12588@diamond.ss.org> <20051212152910.GJ3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051212165537.GK3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:57:46AM -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Valgrind is an amazing Free Software project doing along the same > > lines as purify. > > I will keep that in mind next time I am chasing a memory bug. There's also mpatrol which is quite sophisticated. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 22:54:07 2005 From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:54:07 -0500 Subject: How do I turn off Flash in Firefox! In-Reply-To: <20051212224308.GA4225-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051212224308.GA4225@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051212175407.546a86e4.gstrom@eol.ca> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:43:08 -0500 William Park wrote: > How do I turn on and turn off Flash support in Firefox, just like I > can with Java and Javascript? I can remove Flash files from 'plugins' > directory, but sometimes I need Flash on. > I haven't tried it myself, but there is a plugin for Firefox at http://flashblock.mozdev.org/. According to the website, there's a button that installs on the toolbar to turn the plugin on and off. -- Glen Strom gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 22:55:29 2005 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:55:29 -0500 Subject: How do I turn off Flash in Firefox! In-Reply-To: <20051212224308.GA4225-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051212224308.GA4225@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <439DFFE1.8090909@rogers.com> http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ try this plug-in and se if it does the trick. Dan William Park wrote: >How do I turn on and turn off Flash support in Firefox, just like I can >with Java and Javascript? I can remove Flash files from 'plugins' >directory, but sometimes I need Flash on. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 23:10:33 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:10:33 -0500 Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues In-Reply-To: <439A2C22.5030002-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051212231033.GA27259@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 08:15:14PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote > Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues Actually, I think this is very much on topic for this list. 1) Bell and Rogers, and the other big telcos/cablecos tend to lean towards Windows. In some places in the USA, there are ISPs whose mail servers will only interoperate with Outlook or Outlook Express. Expensive monitoring equipment will disproportionately drive the little ISPs out of business, leaving only the Windows-oriented biggies. That would obviously be bad news for us. When hardware without backdoors is outlawed, software without backdoors will be next. Windows has a gazillion backdoors, so Bill Gates would have no worries. Linux/BSD/etc, on the other hand, can be virtually impenetrable. Nosey governments would be very unhappy with that. 2) France is considering legislation mandating DRM in all software. It would effectively outlaw linux as we know it or, at the very least, make programming a government-licenced/regulated activity. As I said before, the alleged goal of the legislation is to protect the "intellectual property" of a bunch of scantily-clad-seventeen-year-old screeching sluts, and some potty-mouthed rappers. However, the side- effects are very bad for open source. For the full article, see... http://iht.com/articles/2005/12/09/business/openside.php -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 23:15:33 2005 From: dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:15:33 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support Message-ID: Has anyone had success installing the kyocera 650 passport from bell mobility? The card installs fine, but username, password if required, and network info (eg 4161234567-NKmMKVZxWuGw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) are not available from tech support at bell. User groups in the U.S. have published the info for verizon, but i think bell has set up the login procedure a lttle differently thanks dave morton _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft?? SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN?? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 23:45:40 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:45:40 -0500 Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues In-Reply-To: <20051212231033.GA27259-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> <20051212231033.GA27259@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <439E0BA4.6090607@telly.org> Walter Dnes wrote: >2) France is considering legislation mandating DRM in all software. >It would effectively outlaw linux as we know it or, at the very least, >make programming a government-licenced/regulated activity. As I said >before, the alleged goal of the legislation is to protect the >"intellectual property" of a bunch of scantily-clad-seventeen-year-old >screeching sluts, and some potty-mouthed rappers. However, the side- >effects are very bad for open source. For the full article, see... >http://iht.com/articles/2005/12/09/business/openside.php > > First of all, on an IP-related issue France can't do something that is out of step with the EU, which while not itself completely open source friendly has refused to allow (or honour) US-type software patents. Most of the EU has already adopted many of the measures being debated. Secondly, the French public sector is a large user of open source; the country has been one of the more Linux-friendly in Europe and is the home to the largest distribution vendor outside the US, Mandriva. It is highly unlikely that the French government would do anything that would legally curtail the use of open source; it is not a coincidence that France is one of the last two countries in the EU to implement the DRM directive. Lastly, in any context I would caution that "is considering" is a very far cry from "has enacted". The article pointed to above explicitly states that there is no plan to attack FOSS, so I would be careful about being needlessly alarmist. Indeed, Microsoft is also against the more extreme French measures, which along with requiring DRM also requires the publishing of DRM code. This is not a traditional "FOSS versus proprietary" fight so much as it is one of content-provider rights versus programmer and consumer rights. The battle lines are different, and FOSS and proprietary developers are generally on the same side of this one. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 02:19:57 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:19:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Suse 10 Review Message-ID: <50167.207.188.65.194.1134440397.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> There is a nice review of Suse 10 in today's Globe and Mail. http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051209.gtsuse10dec10/BNStory/TechReviews/ -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 02:56:32 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:56:32 -0500 Subject: How do I turn off Flash in Firefox! In-Reply-To: <439DFFE1.8090909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051212224308.GA4225@node1.opengeometry.net> <439DFFE1.8090909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051213025632.GA5876@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 05:55:29PM -0500, DanG wrote: > http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ try this plug-in and se if it does the > trick. Thanks, Dan and Glen. It works. Flash area is empty box, until I click the area. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 04:24:33 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:24:33 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <50167.207.188.65.194.1134440397.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <50167.207.188.65.194.1134440397.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> I wasn't so easily impressed. It is nice Linux is getting any attention at all in the major media. But of the "smorgasbord" of software he mentions -- no mention of OpenOffice? I have to react with amusement as to what they were trying to do. I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. However, I attempted an install of a fairly recent distro (2.2 kernel, if I recall), which ended up running slow on a 486DX-33 (32 MB RAM) I had (and still have). And I don't just mean slower, but even the TTY console was intolerably slow. Has there been an actual abandonment of certain hardware it used to support, which they would now deem "legacy"? Paul King On 12 Dec 2005 at 21:19, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org ) spaketh these wourdes: > > There is a nice review of Suse 10 in today's Globe and Mail. > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051209.gtsuse10dec10/BNStory/ > TechReviews/ > > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Professor Emeritus, > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > Ryerson University > 416-465-3007 > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > __________ NOD32 1.1320 (20051212) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 04:26:51 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:26:51 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: <439E4D8B.1030303@istop.com> Paul King wrote: > I wasn't so easily impressed. The same. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 05:49:39 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:49:39 -0500 Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues In-Reply-To: <439E0BA4.6090607-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> <20051212231033.GA27259@waltdnes.org> <439E0BA4.6090607@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051213054939.GA27641@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 06:45:40PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote > First of all, on an IP-related issue France can't do something that > is out of step with the EU, which while not itself completely open > source friendly has refused to allow (or honour) US-type software > patents. Most of the EU has already adopted many of the measures > being debated. The sad fact is that the defeat of the EU patent directive is being undermined one country at a time by national patent offices issuing software patents. Consider Inpro's suit against RIM in Europe. If the patent directive defeat can be ignored, anything can be ignored. > Secondly, the French public sector is a large user of open source; the > country has been one of the more Linux-friendly in Europe and is the > home to the largest distribution vendor outside the US, Mandriva. It is > highly unlikely that the French government would do anything that would > legally curtail the use of open source; it is not a coincidence that > France is one of the last two countries in the EU to implement the DRM > directive. You're assuming that Steve Balmer can't twist France's arm the way he could twist Massachusetts'. I hope you're right. But France's proposed legislation is essentially the software half of Fritz Hollings' SSSCA. If I understand it, even "Hello World" would require DRM libs to be included. > Lastly, in any context I would caution that "is considering" is a very > far cry from "has enacted". The article pointed to above explicitly > states that there is no plan to attack FOSS... I also pointed out that it wasn't officially a head-on attack against FOSS. But the side-effects are just as deadly. > ...so I would be careful about being needlessly alarmist. I used to laugh at the tin-foil brigade members who predicted that Microsoft would use its cash on "the best legislators that money can buy" to have linux outlawed. Then along came Fritz Hollings and his SSSCA. A bit of history for you... - In the 1920's hemp was a widely used agricultural product whose fibres produced strong rope, cloth, and paper. 99% of the American public had never heard of the word "marihuana". - Hemp was so much better and cheaper that it threatened the fiscal viability of du Pont's new "miracle fibre", i.e. nylon, in the early 1930's. It also threatened to render valueless the large stands of timber that the Hearst newspaper chain owned for supplying its own newsprint. - A few campaign contributions, and a bunch of "Reefer Madness" propaganda, and suddenly hemp was 100% associated with crime Disney, and various other interests would love to see the personal computer as we know it outlawed, or at least castrated to being nothing more than a WEB-TV dumb terminal. Seeing the success that du Pont and Hearst had with outlawing hemp in the 1930's, I am fearful of the same happening to linux today. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 06:23:19 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 01:23:19 -0500 Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues In-Reply-To: <20051213054939.GA27641-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> <20051212231033.GA27259@waltdnes.org> <439E0BA4.6090607@telly.org> <20051213054939.GA27641@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <439E68D7.6020905@telly.org> Walter Dnes wrote: >Disney, and various other interests would love to see the personal >computer as we know it outlawed, or at least castrated to being nothing >more than a WEB-TV dumb terminal. Seeing the success that du Pont and >Hearst had with outlawing hemp in the 1930's, I am fearful of the same >happening to linux today. > > It would not surprise me at all if a concerted effort were made in that direction, in the US or elsewhere in the English-as-primary-language world. However, the further you get from there the less likely such attempts would see the light of day. In countries such as Brazil and China, open source methodologies are becoming part of public policy. I would note that US backwardness in some areas has led to the competitive advantage of others. Canada profited well from US prohibition, and we may yet reap some rewards from disparities over issues such as gay marriage and MJ decriminalization. If the US takes a step back in certain areas of technology (and cannot force the rest of the world to step back with it), the only losers will be US IT competitiveness. Even Massachusetts isn't a foregone defeat even despite what's lined up against it. Having said that, things are indeed going to get worse before they get better. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 07:38:11 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:38:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Paul King wrote: > I wasn't so easily impressed. It is nice Linux is getting any attention at all in > the major media. But of the "smorgasbord" of software he mentions -- no mention > of OpenOffice? I have to react with amusement as to what they were trying to do. > > I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think > Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. > > However, I attempted an install of a fairly recent distro (2.2 kernel, if I > recall), which ended up running slow on a 486DX-33 (32 MB RAM) I had (and still > have). And I don't just mean slower, but even the TTY console was intolerably > slow. Has there been an actual abandonment of certain hardware it used to > support, which they would now deem "legacy"? The tty on a 33MHz machine is slow, period. I still have 33MHz machines (two) that work and they are slow slow. That's the way it is. 33MHz machines have problems keeping up with 115kBaud serial streams while not doing anything else, for example (of course no deep FIFOs). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 07:50:30 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:50:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: Possibly OT :-) New Canadian Voice in Digital Rights Issues In-Reply-To: <20051213054939.GA27641-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <439A2C22.5030002@pppoe.ca> <20051212231033.GA27259@waltdnes.org> <439E0BA4.6090607@telly.org> <20051213054939.GA27641@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > Disney, and various other interests would love to see the personal > computer as we know it outlawed, or at least castrated to being nothing > more than a WEB-TV dumb terminal. Seeing the success that du Pont and > Hearst had with outlawing hemp in the 1930's, I am fearful of the same > happening to linux today. I think that the open source movement cannot follow that avenue because it already *is* the result of, or more precisely the reaction to, attempted 'castration' of unfettered access to computer software and hardware. Think of this in the light of the birth of the *nix based open source movement, when the power that be (or was) tried to do the 'all your base is mine' trick with several dozen universities in at least a dozen countries who had based their OS and programming courses on what had been, for ten years, an open (or at least published) sourced OS, and had built a body of knowledge, a following, and millions of lines of application and system source code whose momentum simply wiped that lame attempt out, even if it took another almost ten years to materialize into solutions usable by everyone. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 14:19:35 2005 From: fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org (bob) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:19:35 -0500 Subject: facinating concept Message-ID: <20051213141615.2BC26EB36C@outbox.allstream.net> " ... will note that it means that the open source development community around SugarCRM is very well aligned with the company. The community wants to make money around SugarCRM and so is going to contribute plug-ins, add-ons, extensions, etc. that make it a robust, superior product. " http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/archives/2005/12/the_changing_fa.html Very similar to something I called "private source" in my pseudo blog entry a while back: http://www.icanprogram.com/developersDilemma.html bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 14:58:53 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:58:53 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <200512072118.53737.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <200512061919.36229.mervc@eol.ca> <1133964466.3067.3.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <200512072118.53737.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1134485933.3444.18.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Hello Merv, I've been unsuccessful with Yast on this supplementary material, even when copying the FTP directory to my hard drive. Perhaps they've made some changes to Yast and haven't updated the FTP directory. My only advice is open a console/terminal window and to download the RPM files (perhaps with the command wget --mirror ) and click on each one to install the RPM files individually with Yast. KB On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 21:18 -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > On Wednesday 07 December 2005 09:07, Ken Burtch wrote: > > SuSE 10 indeed has a number of packages missing from the DVDs. Some of > > these are for licensing reasons (OpenSuSE is GPL), others...well, for > > unknown reasons. If you follow the instructions at the Jem Report > > (http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/) you should be > > able to find most/all the missing packages. > > > > For a review of OpenSUSE and a discussion on the missing packages, read > > my blog at http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_november_2005.html. > > > > Thanks for the two links, interesting reading especially your problems. > > I have added the repositories and installed the programs listed in the Jem > report. All that with no problem. What I am having a problem with is adding > the 'supplementary' repository. > > ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/ , similar at mirrors. > > If you want the new KDE stuff add KDE/update_for_10.0/ That was the format > that worked for the basic things, including a Packman mirror. I tried that, > Yast wouldn't accept it. > > I found this site, where Novell give 9.2 instructions in a detailed > 'how-to' . > > http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11504.html > > For supplementary it seems you need to add ' yast-source ' as well. That > directory seems to be there, but Yast still won't accept the URL from me. > > If you have time could you give this a try? When you are successful, the > KDE 3.5 update is available. There seems to be a lot of stuff in the > 'Gnome' directory if that is your preference. > > Merv > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 15:31:27 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:31:27 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051213153127.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 06:15:33PM -0500, dave morton wrote: > Has anyone had success installing the kyocera 650 passport from bell > mobility? > The card installs fine, but username, password if required, and network > info (eg 4161234567-NKmMKVZxWuGw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org) are not available from tech support at bell. > User groups in the U.S. have published the info for verizon, but i think > bell has set up the login procedure a lttle differently > thanks > dave morton Well I have no idea either (looks expensive to use too). Some info I did find on a quick search though says that for something like a blackberry to be used for internet access on 1x network you dial #777, login with phonenumber-NKmMKVZxWuGw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org and password of your voicemail pin. I wonder if that would be correct for that card too? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 15:43:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> References: <50167.207.188.65.194.1134440397.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: <20051213154318.GM3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 11:24:33PM -0500, Paul King wrote: > I wasn't so easily impressed. It is nice Linux is getting any attention at all in > the major media. But of the "smorgasbord" of software he mentions -- no mention > of OpenOffice? I have to react with amusement as to what they were trying to do. > > I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think > Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. > > However, I attempted an install of a fairly recent distro (2.2 kernel, if I > recall), which ended up running slow on a 486DX-33 (32 MB RAM) I had (and still > have). And I don't just mean slower, but even the TTY console was intolerably > slow. Has there been an actual abandonment of certain hardware it used to > support, which they would now deem "legacy"? Well I find Debian 3.1 wiht a 2.4 kernel runs just fine on a 486DX2/66 with 48M, although that is more than twice as fast I must admit. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 15:45:46 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:45:46 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: <20051213154546.GN3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 09:38:11AM +0200, Peter wrote: > The tty on a 33MHz machine is slow, period. I still have 33MHz machines > (two) that work and they are slow slow. That's the way it is. 33MHz > machines have problems keeping up with 115kBaud serial streams while not > doing anything else, for example (of course no deep FIFOs). I would think a 16550A with the 16byte FIFO would take care of that. Always did in the past as far as I recall. Of course the 8250's with no FIFO could barely run 19200 or 38400 on a machine that speed. I remember my Amiga500 could handle 19200 just fine, although I think I had it configured to use a 512byte buffer on the serial port (gotta love hardware flexible enough to allocate a chunk of memory for the serial ports own use). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:02:06 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:02:06 +0000 Subject: new member Message-ID: <439F0C9E.6060602@zen.co.uk> Hi I am a new subscriber. While I live in England I decided to join as I am in the process of registering for BUNAC on their work canada programme and if successful will be able to spend 12 months working in Canada,. I thought as I am interested in Linux if I am going to be in the area, I would like to be involved in promotion of Linux / OSS in some way and perhaps take some ideas back home with me on my return to the UK. I am currently a member of the Devon and Cornwall Linux user group, this covers a wide area, we do hold meetings, it would be nice if I do get over to Canada to be able to attend meetings and learn more about Linux and related software at the same time. I have been using Linux on and off since kernel 1.0.9, in that time I feel I have learnt alot, however still have much much more to learn, I am currently using kanotix 2005-3, which seems to have been messed up so I am going to start fresh with 2005-4 when it's released, hopefully soon. Moving from rpm to apt-get was pretty easy. I will sign off, I look forward to taking part in discussions and hopefully attending meetings if / when I get to Canada in 2006. Thanks Paul Sutton (UK) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:12:16 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:12:16 -0500 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <439F0C9E.6060602-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <439F0C9E.6060602@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512131012g416c4099q7fa6794953a4fef1@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, paul sutton wrote: > I will sign off, I look forward to taking part in discussions and > hopefully attending meetings if / when I get to Canada in 2006. Always great to meet new folks - Welcome to TLUG! =) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:34:06 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (PW Armstrong) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? Message-ID: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? thx -peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:42:05 2005 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:42:05 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F141E.5010700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439F15FD.3070700@rogers.com> PW Armstrong wrote: > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? Just lack of competition. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:50:08 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F141E.5010700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong wrote: > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names Not sure what they're like as far as hosting (getting ready to one of there hosting solutions out, any comments would be appreciated.) > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? I know that administrative details are different for .ca domains, but don't know much more than that off hand. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:59:29 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:59:29 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F141E.5010700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439F1A11.6080407@telly.org> PW Armstrong wrote: > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? My first answer is "none of the above" (see below). If you really want one, I can vouch for Starnix which is an agent/reseller for OpenSRS. They're probably not cheapest but the service can't be beat. > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? I have no idea why, considering CIRA doesn't really do much. The registration heavy lifting is done by the registrars, and dispute resolution is subbed off to third parties. That means that it costs more than $1,200 to get a squatter off of a domain you should own, so if the squatter wants less than that amount it's cheaper to pay the extortion than to get fairness. Anything more than a trivial change in your domain info requires identity verification, the complexity of which reminds one of passport applications. I'm involved with two separate issues with CIRA, in both cases all I encounter is slowness and bureaucracy. I can't even get anyone to sign a human name to an email. Yeah, being a monopoly probably has a lot to do with it, which is why many Canadians wanting domains (just about anyone I know) will prefer .com/.org/.net if possible. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 01:20:59 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:20:59 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <20051213154318.GM3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50167.207.188.65.194.1134440397.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> <20051213154318.GM3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <439F737B.3030405@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 11:24:33PM -0500, Paul King wrote: > >>I wasn't so easily impressed. It is nice Linux is getting any attention at all in >>the major media. But of the "smorgasbord" of software he mentions -- no mention >>of OpenOffice? I have to react with amusement as to what they were trying to do. >> >>I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think >>Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. >> >>However, I attempted an install of a fairly recent distro (2.2 kernel, if I >>recall), which ended up running slow on a 486DX-33 (32 MB RAM) I had (and still >>have). And I don't just mean slower, but even the TTY console was intolerably >>slow. Has there been an actual abandonment of certain hardware it used to >>support, which they would now deem "legacy"? > > > Well I find Debian 3.1 wiht a 2.4 kernel runs just fine on a 486DX2/66 > with 48M, although that is more than twice as fast I must admit. > Not quite twice as fast. The bus speed is still 33Mhz (33Mhz seems so weird looking at it today.) So accesses to main memory are still the same speed. So are transfers to and from the hard disk. A note to Paul King: don't be nostalgic about old hardware. It's not worth it. In the IT world the most expensive commodity is your time. So any hardware and software that reduces your time is well worth it. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 02:16:00 2005 From: dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:16:00 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support In-Reply-To: <20051213153127.GL3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051213153127.GL3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: nope, tried that already. i think the network they are using for this is not the 1x.bell.ca, it may be a new one. In the US, the verizon login is 4161234567-F39Oa/ePAaoAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org and the password is vzw. #777 is the universal dial out for these types of networks i'm hoping bell can respond before the 15 day trial period ends; by all accounts on the blogs in the US, the linux laptops run red hot compared to the windows laptops. some of the throughput is in excess of 1.0 Mb dave morton Well I have no idea either (looks expensive to use too). Some info I did find on a quick search though says that for something like a blackberry to be used for internet access on 1x network you dial #777, login with phonenumber-NKmMKVZxWuGw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org and password of your voicemail pin. I wonder if that would be correct for that card too? Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft?? SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN?? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 03:10:09 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:10:09 -0500 Subject: OT: A "first attempt" at my view on developing with f/loss Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512131910t4e0e2ed6r95d8c85a52690d93@mail.gmail.com> First off, my apologies to anyone who interprets the subject line as an "announcement." While the nature of the content is personal, the purpose is not. http://psema4.gotdns.com/#DevelopmentPolicy It's a (really) quick overview of where, when and why I select closed- or open-source and generally targetted at those who hear the term "open source" but have little idea as to what it means (besides the fact that it gives Microsoft grief. lol.) The target audience is comprised of computer literate folks. They're linux and f/loss "hold-outs." (if you will, :-) If possible, I'd like to get opinions from the list as well, since I'm usually pretty horrid at english (too many exceptions = kernel panic. lol.) and many others are better at this than I. I can't tell what others think - without asking - and would appreciate any help. TIA -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 23:10:16 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:10:16 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F15FD.3070700-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <439F15FD.3070700@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1134515416.4696.11.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Lowcostdomains.ca -- $17.45CD for .ca RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 13:42 -0500, Stephen wrote: > PW Armstrong wrote: > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > > > > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? > > Just lack of competition. > > Stephen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:18:34 2005 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:18:34 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439F1E8A.5050200@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: >On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong wrote: > > >>can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? >> >> > >Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names > >Not sure what they're like as far as hosting (getting ready to one of >there hosting solutions out, any comments would be appreciated.) > > Thank you! I am sure that I am not the only one who will checking these people out. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:39:43 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 13 Dec 2005 14:39:43 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: Peter writes: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Paul King wrote: > > > I wasn't so easily impressed. It is nice Linux is getting any attention at all in > > the major media. But of the "smorgasbord" of software he mentions -- no mention > > of OpenOffice? I have to react with amusement as to what they were trying to do. > > > > I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think > > Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. > > > > However, I attempted an install of a fairly recent distro (2.2 kernel, if I > > recall), which ended up running slow on a 486DX-33 (32 MB RAM) I had (and still > > have). And I don't just mean slower, but even the TTY console was intolerably > > slow. Has there been an actual abandonment of certain hardware it used to > > support, which they would now deem "legacy"? > > The tty on a 33MHz machine is slow, period. I still have 33MHz machines (two) > that work and they are slow slow. That's the way it is. 33MHz machines have > problems keeping up with 115kBaud serial streams while not doing anything > else, for example (of course no deep FIFOs). I think you might be confusing things. The Linux console (/dev/tty1, /dev/tty2, etc.) isn't a serial device and doesn't require serial drivers or FIFOs. I believe the console drivers use a memory mapped implementation and _should be_ able to write characters to the screen at near bus speeds. Of course, the implementation may not be fully optimized but it should be able to do a lot better than 115kbps. A 33Mhz system might have a problem keeping up with a 115kbps serial device but that's a limitation of the serial hardware. It can handle other kinds of streams at much higher speeds. I used a 33Mhz 486 with 16MB RAM as my firewall for many years and it had no trouble keeping up with my 1Mbps DSL, even using the user space PPPoE implementation. I've also had no trouble saturating 10Mbps Ethernet using a similarly equipped 486 as an NFS server. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:37:04 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:37:04 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 repositories In-Reply-To: <1134485933.3444.18.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512061651.03957.mervc@eol.ca> <200512072118.53737.mervc@eol.ca> <1134485933.3444.18.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <200512131437.05208.mervc@eol.ca> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 09:58, Ken Burtch wrote: > Hello Merv, > > I've been unsuccessful with Yast on this supplementary material, even > when copying the FTP directory to my hard drive. Perhaps they've made > some changes to Yast and haven't updated the FTP directory. My only > advice is open a console/terminal window and to download the RPM files > (perhaps with the command wget --mirror ) and click on each > one to install the RPM files individually with Yast. > Thanks Ken. Well I am not alone then. I figured that I would have to do a manual update if I wanted KDE 3.5, you have confirmed it. Cheerio -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 21:05:57 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:05:57 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <20051213154546.GN3802-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> <20051213154546.GN3802@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051213210557.GA10900@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:45:46AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 09:38:11AM +0200, Peter wrote: > > The tty on a 33MHz machine is slow, period. I still have 33MHz machines > > (two) that work and they are slow slow. That's the way it is. 33MHz > > machines have problems keeping up with 115kBaud serial streams while not > > doing anything else, for example (of course no deep FIFOs). > > I would think a 16550A with the 16byte FIFO would take care of that. > Always did in the past as far as I recall. Of course the 8250's with no > FIFO could barely run 19200 or 38400 on a machine that speed. I > remember my Amiga500 could handle 19200 just fine, although I think I > had it configured to use a 512byte buffer on the serial port (gotta love > hardware flexible enough to allocate a chunk of memory for the serial > ports own use). I recall the days of running 7 and 8 developers on terminals (at 19200) all sharing one 16 MHz 386 running Interactive Unix. The hardware only had 16450 serial interfaces, so the buffering was very limited. However, that just meant that output to the terminal didn't always run at the full speed of 19200 when everybody was busy displaying stuff. The modem ran at 2400 (later 9600) without problem. ASCII terminals don't often run into buffer overrun issues, even on slow (by today's standards) hardware because the input is limited by typing speed and you'd have to type extremely fast to have problems. (Even the high speed touch typists did not suffer from character loss on that system.) We would only have problems when we tried to put long strings into the programmable function keys of a terminal - four characters would occasionally have one dropped, and if the string was six characters long or longer, it would rarely get sent correctly. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:14:07 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:14:07 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong wrote: > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names > > Not sure what they're like as far as hosting (getting ready to one of > there hosting solutions out, any comments would be appreciated.) > > > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? > > I know that administrative details are different for .ca domains, but > don't know much more than that off hand. According to http://www.cira.ca/en/documents/2005/q2/FeesPolicyAndRules-1.6.txt , the wholesale cost on a .ca domain is $8.50. .com's are something like $2.50 or $4, IIRC. I use domainsatcost.ca for my .ca's, joker.com for .com's, and Webnames.ca for client domains. If I'm going to have to deal with a registrar for a customer, I want them to have decent customer service, hence using webnames.ca. The one thing I haven't found yet is an inexpensive .ca registrar who offers a nameservice as well - that's why I use joker.com for .com's. Webnames will do it, but it's an additional $5 on top of $50 for a year. I don't mind passing that on to a client, but it's too rich for me personally. Any suggestions? -Leigh -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 06:45:55 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:45:55 +0800 Subject: linux problem In-Reply-To: <20051212134444.GA4378@ettin> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <20051212134444.GA4378@ettin> Message-ID: <200512141445.55091.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Hi, i have an active iptables but we have a firewall appliance installed infront.. activating the logs doesn't show much since traffic is filtered in the appliance.... disk space utilization is 20% only.. http is not available via localhost... ssh is listening on all interfaces.. On Monday 12 December 2005 9:44 pm, Neil Watson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 06:06:52PM +0800, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only contents > > for dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... > > for some reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is > > pingable.. but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive > > already checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. > > Iptables? > Disk space? > Is httpd and ssh available locally (e.g. ssh localhost)? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 06:53:38 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (Jerome Macaranas) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:53:38 +0800 Subject: linux problem In-Reply-To: <200512121635.51005.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512121635.51005.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <200512141453.38505.jerome@gmanmi.tv> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 5:35 am, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On December 12, 2005 05:06, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > > hi all, > > > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only > > contents for dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with > > 2G memory..... for some reason the box just suddenly became > > unavailable... the server is pingable.. but services running on it > > is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already checked the logs... but > > didn't saw anything unusual.. > > Make sure you haven't run out of disk space on a partition, e.g. /var. no.. i still have a lot of unused disk space.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:30:08 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:30:08 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F15FD.3070700-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <439F15FD.3070700@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Stephen wrote: > PW Armstrong wrote: > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > > > > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? > > Just lack of competition. Incorrect. See the CIRA "Fees Policy." http://www.cira.ca/en/documents/2005/q2/FeesPolicyAndRules-1.6.txt If you check the ICANN agreements, you'll find that the typical 1 year registration fees for gTLDs is between $5.75 and $6.00 USD. For .COM, the registration fee is $6 USD/yr. CIRA used to charge registration fees of $25/yr, and registrars would have to charge something in addition to cover any costs they incur. The price has fallen to $8.50 CDN, which makes $10 a pretty decent price. That's not much more than $6 USD... Anyone that charges less than $8.50 MUST be looking for money somewhere else... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 06:57:21 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:57:21 +0800 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200512141457.21921.jerome@gmanmi.tv> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 4:43 am, Alex Beamish wrote: > On 12/12/05, Robert Brockway wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only > > > > contents for > > > > > dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G memory..... for > > > > some > > > > > reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... the server is > > > > pingable.. > > > > > but services running on it is unaccessible .. HTTP, SSH... Ive already > > > checked the logs... but didn't saw anything unusual.. > > In addition to all of the good things Rob mentioned, have you VACUUMed your > Postgres database recently? > > I experienced a 'knee' of performance on one of my database servers > recently, and did a VACUUM that took 45 minutes to complete. After that, > performance was almost two orders of magnitude better. There used to be a > daily VACUUM on that server but due to some other changes it was disabled. > There is now a daily VACUUM on all of my database servers. > its automatic to me that if a box has PG.. small or big ..it will VACUUMed every day... > And of course, when all else fails, check what the log files are saying. If > you use Nagios to monitor the server (from another box, obviously) you > should get some kind of warning that the system is degrading. > > Looks like you've got some fun investigative work ahead of you. > > Alex > > If the box becomes unavailable how are you getting in to checkout the > > > logs? If it is after a reboot then the horse has bolted - you need to > > capture important data right after the system has the problem. > > > > Can you checkout the console when this is happening? If it is not easy > > to get to the keyboard & monitor consider setting up a serial console - > > this is great for capturing console output for later. Also checkout > > dmesg. > > > > Turn all the logs you can to debug. This will add load to the server. > > If the box is in production watch the system load. > > > > How long does the system last before it suffers this problem? Minutes, > > days, weeks? > > > > Google for cross references to your hardware, kernel, filesystems, etc > > and watch for others reporting similar problems. > > > > Also, it's better to be more specific with the title. Some people may > > not checkout the thread based on the title, or you may get the wrong > > people doing so (ie, those without enough experience). If you used a > > subject line of something like "Intermittent Connectivity Problem" (which > > I have) you may tend to draw in the right audience more easily. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Rob > > > > -- > > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 > > Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net > > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > ---------- > Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:43:27 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:43:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <43990E43.30207-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <200512131443.27419.mervc@eol.ca> On Thursday 08 December 2005 23:55, Meng Cheah wrote: > I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more > coverage :-) > > Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with > builtin video? > Take a look at the ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800. Seems to be a possibility. Canadasys.com list it at $68. Also has SATA sockets. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 07:04:06 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:04:06 -0500 Subject: Suse 10 Review In-Reply-To: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> References: <439E06B1.17354.608A827@localhost> Message-ID: <439FC3E6.2020609@rogers.com> > I am surprised that he only went as low as a 466 MHz processor. I didn't think > Suse would have set the hardware "bar" so high. I've been a pretty loyal SuSE user for years now, and you are right. I've tried it on some older hardware and it wasn't so hot, not in gui mode... but cli has never been a real problem. That sounds like an interesting issue. But I think it's a given that it's a bloated distro, meant for higher end stuff. If I wanted to run Debian, I'd be running Debian. I've put in my time on slack and many, many others, now I want to be spoiled. And on a good amd64 system with a gig of decent ram, neither of which are very expensive anymore, it is a thing of beauty ;) This is not the distro you drop on your linksys router. The hardware detection on my rig was near flawless, certainly better than windows or my wife's osx box. Things aren't perfect mind you, was a somewhat of a bitch getting multimedia codecs and shit working... somethings are just not there or hard to find/tweak. I also underestimated how confused I would be with problems stemming from keeping two strains of libs, 32bit and 64, and when one or the other, or both, were needed or even appropriate to install. But everything I've ever done in 32 bit I can do now after a few weeks of learning. Bought some cheap $50 Hauppauge USB video capture dongle which didn't work too well at first, and with a retardedly easy driver recompile from the project site (module is km_usbvision?) things clicked, and it's working. I was expecting serious issues with vmware and running windows guests, as theres some programs I just can't get (and am too lazy to write) for linux. Mostly stuff to do with my Icom scanner, controlling it through the serial port. Well, running the 5.5 beta still and no issues whatsoever. That made me very happy. Stupidest thing so far? I installed the OpenSuSE 10 version, or free, or whatever the heck it's called, and cvs & cvsup wasn't there. Had to wait and find an install site. What the hell is that? A few other obvious things were missing too. Novell I suspect is going to screw this pooch, I just hope the germans can hold it together :) Cheers, B -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 08:21:04 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:21:04 +0800 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 3:04 am, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Jerome Macaranas wrote: > > hi all, > > > > I have a system that serves HTTP and PGSQL ( serves locally only > > contents for dynamic HTTP conntents )... it runs on Redhat 9 with 2G > > memory..... for some reason the box just suddenly became unavailable... > > the server is pingable.. but services running on it is unaccessible .. > > HTTP, SSH... Ive already checked the logs... but didn't saw anything > > unusual.. > since the box is located 100,000 km away from our office i can only ask the tech-support for the provider to do some things like connect a monitor.. and email me the things that he sees... but unfortunately he told me that there are no errors..... ill add debug on logs and lets see... tia, > If the box becomes unavailable how are you getting in to checkout the > logs? If it is after a reboot then the horse has bolted - you need to > capture important data right after the system has the problem. > > Can you checkout the console when this is happening? If it is not easy to > get to the keyboard & monitor consider setting up a serial console - this > is great for capturing console output for later. Also checkout dmesg. > > Turn all the logs you can to debug. This will add load to the server. If > the box is in production watch the system load. > > How long does the system last before it suffers this problem? Minutes, > days, weeks? > > Google for cross references to your hardware, kernel, filesystems, etc and > watch for others reporting similar problems. > > Also, it's better to be more specific with the title. Some people may not > checkout the thread based on the title, or you may get the wrong people > doing so (ie, those without enough experience). If you used a subject > line of something like "Intermittent Connectivity Problem" (which I have) > you may tend to draw in the right audience more easily. > > Cheers, > > Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 13:20:51 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:20:51 +0200 (IST) Subject: at least some people care about the future of their standards Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/14/patent_ambush/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 14:09:46 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:09:46 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512140909.46962.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On December 13, 2005 09:16 pm, dave morton wrote: > nope, tried that already. i think the network they are using for this is > not the 1x.bell.ca, it may be a new one. In the US, the verizon login is > 4161234567-F39Oa/ePAaoAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org and the password is vzw. #777 is the universal dial > out for these types of networks One option you could try, is installing the bell software on a windows based laptop, and capturing the packets with ethereal during the logon process. Ethereal for windows can be found here. http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ethereal/ethereal-setup-0.10.13.exe?download I had to do this to understand the logon procedure for the bell prepaid internet dial up service ( To use with my treo ) and use it on linux. For those of you who are interested, it is called WebMinutes. The logon username for webminutes is the odd part. Maybe the kyocera uses the same method. The logon ID for WebMinutes is idm/pre/"USERNAME"@cp followed by the password. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 14:17:39 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:17:39 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A02983.5070908@georgetown.wehave.net> Leigh Honeywell wrote: > According to http://www.cira.ca/en/documents/2005/q2/FeesPolicyAndRules-1.6.txt > , the wholesale cost on a .ca domain is $8.50. .com's are something > like $2.50 or $4, IIRC. Wow, that's cheap. BTW, 1and1 sells .com domains for $4.99, I'm thinking of ditching my opensrs reseller account, doesn't make much sense to be a reseller when you can buy direct elsewhere for half the price! Not sure if they sell .ca domains ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 14:44:08 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:44:08 -0500 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512141621.04158.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200512140944.08694.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On December 14, 2005 03:21 am, JM wrote: > since the box is located 100,000 km away from our office i can only ask the > tech-support for the provider to do some things like connect a monitor.. > and email me the things that he sees... but unfortunately he told me that > there are no errors..... http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/earth.html #1: The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,902 mi / 40,076 km. #2: Most satellites run in between 16,000 and 30,000 kms. #3: The distance to the Moon as measured from the centre of the Earth is 393,400 kms. So your server is located somewhere between Earth's satellites and the moon. Secret lair anyone? http://www.austinpowers.com/EVIL/gallery/img/evil-space1.jpg Sorry, Had to be said :) -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 14:48:26 2005 From: jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Baker) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:48:26 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support In-Reply-To: <200512140909.46962.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512140909.46962.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <200512140948.33226.jab@muskokatech.ca> The best part about the webminutes login is that the login changes depending on what dialin number you happen to be using. Sometimes you need the idm/pre/ part and sometimes you don't, and if you call tech support, sometimes they tell you to use it, while other times they don't. They are about as usefull as sympatico tech support when you mention the word linux. One fringe benefit of istop being taken over by cybersurf is that they now have a lot more dialup numbers, so I don't need to use the webminutes service as often. On Wednesday 14 December 2005 09:09, Jason Shein wrote: > On December 13, 2005 09:16 pm, dave morton wrote: > > nope, tried that already. i think the network they are using for this is > > not the 1x.bell.ca, it may be a new one. In the US, the verizon login is > > 4161234567-F39Oa/ePAaoAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org and the password is vzw. #777 is the universal dial > > out for these types of networks > > One option you could try, is installing the bell software on a windows > based laptop, and capturing the packets with ethereal during the logon > process. > > Ethereal for windows can be found here. > http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ethereal/ethereal-setup-0.10.13.exe?down >load > > I had to do this to understand the logon procedure for the bell prepaid > internet dial up service ( To use with my treo ) and use it on linux. For > those of you who are interested, it is called WebMinutes. > > The logon username for webminutes is the odd part. Maybe the kyocera uses > the same method. > > The logon ID for WebMinutes is idm/pre/"USERNAME"@cp followed by the > password. -- Jeremy Baker GnuPGP fingerprint = EE66 AC49 E008 E09A 7A2A 0195 50EF 580B EDBB 95B6 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 15:31:38 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:31:38 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Leigh Honeywell wrote: > According to http://www.cira.ca/en/documents/2005/q2/FeesPolicyAndRules-1.6.txt > , the wholesale cost on a .ca domain is $8.50. .com's are something > like $2.50 or $4, IIRC. The price is $6, for .COM domains... What recently changed is that the revised .net registry agreement moved .net prices from $6/yr to $4.25/yr. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:17:07 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:17:07 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <200512131443.27419.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <200512131443.27419.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <43A05393.3000506@pppoe.ca> Merv Curley wrote: > On Thursday 08 December 2005 23:55, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more >>coverage :-) >> >>Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with >>builtin video? >> > > Take a look at the ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800. Seems to be a possibility. > Canadasys.com list it at $68. Also has SATA sockets. > > Thanks. Any experience with ASRock? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:17:53 2005 From: dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: kyocera 650 ev-do card support In-Reply-To: <200512140909.46962.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512140909.46962.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: Jason, I'm going to try your idea! i managed to get a bell tech who is linux friendly and he explained that the password is actually embedded into the card itself, along with the device phone number. It is a 32 character password if you can believe it. he was able to somehow get it for me so i am going to try it tonight. the network login is now 1234567890-8O8ytkDkgR/BuxzDYkkuzQ at public.gmane.org for these new cards. the mip (mobile ip ) network redirects to whichever network is available - either 1x or evdo. he was surprised too that the password is 32 characters long, but he says that evdo is really new here in canada, so some of the wrinkles are yet to be ironed out. btw the #777 dialout on these devices is simply the north american universal number for roaming and getting 1x and evdo networks dave One option you could try, is installing the bell software on a windows based laptop, and capturing the packets with ethereal during the logon process. Ethereal for windows can be found here. http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ethereal/ethereal-setup-0.10.13.exe?download I had to do this to understand the logon procedure for the bell prepaid internet dial up service ( To use with my treo ) and use it on linux. For those of you who are interested, it is called WebMinutes. The logon username for webminutes is the odd part. Maybe the kyocera uses the same method. The logon ID for WebMinutes is idm/pre/"USERNAME"@cp followed by the password. Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft?? SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN?? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:19:32 2005 From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:19:32 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty Message-ID: <1134580772.9472.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just got one of these for free from my Dell rep. Does anyone have any idea if this works with Linux? I've tried Gnomad2 and Neutrino, but neither can find the device. I'm running Ubuntu Breezy. Thanks! -- Vince Fry vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org www.vincefry.com The box said "Requires Windows 95 or better." So I installed LINUX -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:21:02 2005 From: dmortondc-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:21:02 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F1A11.6080407-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <439F1A11.6080407@telly.org> Message-ID: i have used easydns.com for the past 30 months. a ca reg is $39. they are on dufferin avenue in toronto, and give great service. their dns system has never let me down, very fast refreshes dave >From: Evan Leibovitch >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for >inexpensive registration? >Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:59:29 -0500 > >PW Armstrong wrote: > >>can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > >My first answer is "none of the above" (see below). > >If you really want one, I can vouch for Starnix which is an agent/reseller >for OpenSRS. They're probably not cheapest but the service can't be beat. > >>btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn >>than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? > >I have no idea why, considering CIRA doesn't really do much. The >registration heavy lifting is done by the registrars, and dispute >resolution is subbed off to third parties. That means that it costs more >than $1,200 to get a squatter off of a domain you should own, so if the >squatter wants less than that amount it's cheaper to pay the extortion than >to get fairness. Anything more than a trivial change in your domain info >requires identity verification, the complexity of which reminds one of >passport applications. > >I'm involved with two separate issues with CIRA, in both cases all I >encounter is slowness and bureaucracy. I can't even get anyone to sign a >human name to an email. > >Yeah, being a monopoly probably has a lot to do with it, which is why many >Canadians wanting domains (just about anyone I know) will prefer >.com/.org/.net if possible. > >- Evan > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft?? SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN?? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:49:46 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:49:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1134580772.9472.3.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <1134580772.9472.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Vince Fry wrote: > I just got one of these for free from my Dell rep. > Does anyone have any > idea if this works with Linux? I've tried Gnomad2 > and Neutrino, but > neither can find the device. I'm running Ubuntu > Breezy. I looked this up on-line and it APPEARS to be a typical USB based MP3 player. The VAST majority of current generation USB MP3 players look to a Linux system like an external USB drive. So, when I deal with my USB based MP3 player under Debian I will type (as root): mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/mp3 cd /mnt/mp3 then I can add/delete mp3 files to my hearts content... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 17:55:35 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: References: <439F1A11.6080407@telly.org> Message-ID: <20051214175535.GA9701@ettin> On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 12:21:02PM -0500, dave morton wrote: >i have used easydns.com for the past 30 months. a ca reg is $39. >they are on dufferin avenue in toronto, and give great service. their dns >system has never let me down, very fast refreshes Ditto. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 104 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 18:49:26 2005 From: vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Vince Fry) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:49:26 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <20051214174946.98992.qmail-iE2/U85ktn6B9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> D'OH!! If I had only gone to my desktop, I would have seen the mounted volume!! Sometimes the easiest solution is the one we overlook! Thanks for helping me get over my brain fart! On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 12:49 -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Vince Fry wrote: > > I just got one of these for free from my Dell rep. > > Does anyone have any > > idea if this works with Linux? I've tried Gnomad2 > > and Neutrino, but > > neither can find the device. I'm running Ubuntu > > Breezy. > > I looked this up on-line and it APPEARS to be a > typical USB based MP3 player. The VAST majority of > current generation USB MP3 players look to a Linux > system like an external USB drive. So, when I deal > with my USB based MP3 player under Debian I will type > (as root): > > mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/mp3 > cd /mnt/mp3 > > then I can add/delete mp3 files to my hearts > content... > > Colin McGregor > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Vince Fry vince-J8gUg58EjS5Wk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org www.vincefry.com The box said "Requires Windows 95 or better." So I installed LINUX -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 19:08:12 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:08:12 -0500 Subject: MySQL loading a schema file with the '.my.cnf' file. Message-ID: <43A06D9C.6060804@alteeve.com> Hi all, I'm trying to have my installer load a schema file into MySQL. I don't want to pass the password over the command line so, on Fraser Campbell's suggestion, I started using the '~/my.cnf' file. This file worked for things like calling 'mysql_dump' and 'mysqladmin' but I can't seem to get it to work for this command: # mysql tle-bu -u root -p < /path/to/mysql.schema The schema itself is fine, I can load it fine manually. Here is what is in my '/root/.my.cnf' file: # cat ~/.my.cnf [mysql] password = blah [mysqladmin] password = blah [mysqldump] password = blah I've searched the MySQL docs (v4.1, btw) and can't seem to figure out why this command is failing when other commands work without the password. Is it perhaps the '<' command? Thanks as always!! Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 19:15:28 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:15:28 -0500 Subject: MySQL loading a schema file with the '.my.cnf' file. In-Reply-To: <43A06D9C.6060804-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A06D9C.6060804@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <43A06F50.8050208@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm trying to have my installer load a schema file into MySQL. I don't > want to pass the password over the command line so, on Fraser Campbell's > suggestion, I started using the '~/my.cnf' file. This file worked for > things like calling 'mysql_dump' and 'mysqladmin' but I can't seem to > get it to work for this command: > > # mysql tle-bu -u root -p < /path/to/mysql.schema > > The schema itself is fine, I can load it fine manually. Here is what > is in my '/root/.my.cnf' file: > > # cat ~/.my.cnf > [mysql] > password = blah > [mysqladmin] > password = blah > [mysqldump] > password = blah > > I've searched the MySQL docs (v4.1, btw) and can't seem to figure out > why this command is failing when other commands work without the > password. Is it perhaps the '<' command? > > Thanks as always!! > > Madison GAH!!! I'd been fighting this for two darn hours... Not 30 seconds after I sent that email I realized what I was doing wrong (using the '-p' switch). I'm sorry for the line noise. ^_^; Madison -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Madison Kelly (Digimer) TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 21:09:04 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:09:04 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <200512131443.27419.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <200512131443.27419.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051214210904.GA31034@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 02:43:27PM -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > Take a look at the ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800. Seems to be a possibility. > Canadasys.com list it at $68. Also has SATA sockets. That is also microATX and he wanted full ATX. All onboard video AMD boards are microATX it seems. For full ATX you have to buy a video card. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 21:14:23 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:14:23 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1134580772.9472.3.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <1134580772.9472.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20051214211423.GC31034@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 12:19:32PM -0500, Vince Fry wrote: > I just got one of these for free from my Dell rep. Does anyone have any > idea if this works with Linux? I've tried Gnomad2 and Neutrino, but > neither can find the device. I'm running Ubuntu Breezy. It doesn't work as a usb-storage drive you just copy stuff to? If it doesn't, it may simply not work without special software. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 21:13:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:13:18 -0500 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512141621.04158.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <20051214211318.GB31034@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 04:21:04PM +0800, JM wrote: > since the box is located 100,000 km away from our office i can only ask the > tech-support for the provider to do some things like connect a monitor.. and > email me the things that he sees... but unfortunately he told me that there > are no errors..... Might be faster to not do a couple of around the world trips before heading to the site. Your current route sucks. :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:12:49 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:12:49 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <439F141E.5010700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A05291.28799.269B8D7@localhost> I use vex.net as both my registrar and my web host. Pretty honest bunch of guys, though if you are going for price, these guys are somewhere in the middle. As for ".ca" domains, I am not sure if anyone cares about a cost differential between that and other top-level designations. FWIW, I use ".net" in mine (alimentarus.net, a site more of interest to food scientists and of maybe marginal interest to geeks (yes, it does have some Linux content on it)). Paul On 13 Dec 2005 at 13:34, PW Armstrong (PW Armstrong ) spaketh these wourdes: > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar for .ca dn's? > > btb, why is it more expensive (so it seems to me) to register a .ca dn > than a .com dn? any reason for this, or just lack of competition? > > thx > > -peter > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > __________ NOD32 1.1321 (20051213) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:47:00 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:47:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG Meeting: Thanks In-Reply-To: <1134445338.10069.45.camel-ccvjzJVizCz5OPYHOmv4JA@public.gmane.org> References: <1134445338.10069.45.camel@pentagon.ss.org> Message-ID: <50503.207.188.65.194.1134600420.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Thanks to everyone who showed up at the TLUG meeting yesterday. This was the first public display of our new oscilloscope and function generator, and the concept of 'open instrumentation'. It was very useful - and fun and encouraging - to get the comments of the group. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:53:40 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:53:40 -0500 Subject: TLUG Meeting: Thanks In-Reply-To: <50503.207.188.65.194.1134600420.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>; from phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 05:47:00PM -0500 References: <1134445338.10069.45.camel@pentagon.ss.org> <50503.207.188.65.194.1134600420.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20051214175340.A22968@diamond.ss.org> Thank you for coming out. Please contact this group again when the product is ready to be shipped. I was interested in purchasing a pair and I'm sure there are people here that share my interest. Bill On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 05:47:00PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who showed up at the TLUG meeting yesterday. This was > the first public display of our new oscilloscope and function generator, > and the concept of 'open instrumentation'. It was very useful - and fun > and encouraging - to get the comments of the group. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Professor Emeritus, > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > Ryerson University > 416-465-3007 > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 23:04:05 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:04:05 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <43A02983.5070908-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <439F141E.5010700@gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512131050x1f83f9ebtf8a50fe8ede0eb62@mail.gmail.com> <17c359fc0512131114j2f7995e1r8f9ed095a44aeabb@mail.gmail.com> <43A02983.5070908@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <43A0A4E5.1090605@sympatico.ca> Fraser Campbell wrote: > > Not sure if they sell .ca domains ... They don't. They do .com, .us, .net, .org, .info, .name, .biz, .tv, .cc and .ws. They have just upgraded my hosting package to something ridiculously huge, while still keeping it at $10/month. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 01:46:21 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:46:21 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <200512111255.08092.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <439C6261.8060302@rogers.com> <200512111255.08092.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <43A0CAED.8090008@rogers.com> wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:31 pm, James Knott wrote: > >> Well, the first thing you want to do, is put a bit bucket under your >> computer. ;-) > Is this the one with a carry handle or the one without it ?? Yes. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 03:56:44 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:56:44 -0500 Subject: OT-Extra Postfix book Message-ID: Today I bought the Richard Blum ?POSTFIX? book by Sams. ISBN 0-672-32114-9 Apparently this book is geared more towards 'new to Postfix' admins. Anyways $10 and Bob?s your uncle. This is the first time I have bought a book I already had! That?s scary ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 07:37:01 2005 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:37:01 +0800 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512140944.08694.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512140944.08694.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <200512151537.01508.jerome@gmanmi.tv> hahaha..... im in asia and the box is located in america.. hmm i think that would do it... On Wednesday 14 December 2005 10:44 pm, Jason Shein wrote: > On December 14, 2005 03:21 am, JM wrote: > > since the box is located 100,000 km away from our office i can only ask > > the tech-support for the provider to do some things like connect a > > monitor.. and email me the things that he sees... but unfortunately he > > told me that there are no errors..... > > http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/earth.html > > #1: The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,902 mi / 40,076 km. > #2: Most satellites run in between 16,000 and 30,000 kms. > #3: The distance to the Moon as measured from the centre of the Earth is > 393,400 kms. > > So your server is located somewhere between Earth's satellites and the > moon. > > Secret lair anyone? > http://www.austinpowers.com/EVIL/gallery/img/evil-space1.jpg > > > Sorry, Had to be said :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 10:45:30 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:45:30 -0500 Subject: OT-Extra Postfix book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A1494A.8070303@rogers.com> teddymills wrote: > Today I bought the Richard Blum ?POSTFIX? book by Sams. ISBN 0-672-32114-9 > Apparently this book is geared more towards 'new to Postfix' admins. > Anyways $10 and Bob?s your uncle. > I bought that book over a year ago, from PCManiac, for around that price. > This is the first time I have bought a book I already had! That?s scary ? They say your memory is the second thing to go. I can't remember the first. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 10:51:08 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:51:08 -0500 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512151537.01508.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512140944.08694.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <200512151537.01508.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <43A14A9C.3010703@rogers.com> On Wednesday 14 December 2005 10:44 pm, Jason Shein wrote: > On December 14, 2005 03:21 am, JM wrote: >> since the box is located 100,000 km away from our office i can only ask >> the tech-support for the provider to do some things like connect a >> monitor.. and email me the things that he sees... but unfortunately he >> told me that there are no errors..... > http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/earth.html > > #1: The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,902 mi / 40,076 km. > #2: Most satellites run in between 16,000 and 30,000 kms. > #3: The distance to the Moon as measured from the centre of the Earth is > 393,400 kms. > > So your server is located somewhere between Earth's satellites and the > moon. Maybe it's located at one of those Lagrange points, where gravity from the various bodies cancel out? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 13:50:34 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:50:34 +0200 (IST) Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512151537.01508.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512140944.08694.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <200512151537.01508.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, JM wrote: > hahaha..... im in asia and the box is located in america.. hmm i think that > would do it... Hmm, depdning on your travelling visa requirements, the disnace may be *longer* than you indicated ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 14:41:11 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:41:11 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE Message-ID: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just enough to give me jaggies. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 15:16:49 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:16:49 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <20051215144111.GA12573-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to > actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. > I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit > of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start > the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and > that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, > but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's > where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. > > Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and > then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I > don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, > clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, > launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render > nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just > enough to give me jaggies. > > Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. Is k3b loading any of your settings on startup or is it just missing paths to programs? Why not try forcing k3b to load your config file (mine is in .kde/share/config/k3brc) with the --config option? I can't imagine why it wouldn't look there when running in a different WM, but it *might* be worth a try? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 15:29:22 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:29:22 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <20051215144111.GA12573-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to > actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. In effect, KDE *is* the apps; if you think you don't want to use it, you, by inference don't want to use them. You're probably falling into the trap of imagining KDE to be a window manager. That is Not The Case. http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdebase/faq/introduction.html There are two perspectives that *are* legitimate: 1. KDE is an application development framework. 2. KDE is a set of applications that USE that application development framework. If you don't want to use KDE, then you obviously *don't* want the application framework or the applications. You can't have apps without the framework. The same applies to GNOME, in pretty well identical ways; s/KDE/GNOME/g as needed. What seems quite unfortunate is that both the GNOME and KDE projects fail *desperately* when documenting themselves in that they fail to say what they imagine a "desktop environment" to be. People commonly fail to grasp what GNOME and KDE actually are, and it seems to me that the failure to say "and this is what a desktop and a desktop environment is" is a prime cause. A window manager is not a desktop environment and a desktop environment is not a window manager, and it strikes me as a major failing in both projects that there is not enough proper documentation that people so commonly conflate the notions. > I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit > of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start > the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and > that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, > but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's > where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. > > Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and > then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I > don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, > clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, > launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render > nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just > enough to give me jaggies. > > Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. None of these are KDE issues. They are issues as to what "helper applications" k3b depends on happen to be installed. I seriously doubt Xnest will do anything to help; if it did, that would demonstrate something seriously wrong with KDE components, as the graphical bits operate as X clients. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 15:33:23 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:33:23 -0500 Subject: Intermittent Connectivity Problem [was Re:linux problem] In-Reply-To: <200512151537.01508.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512121806.52382.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512141621.04158.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200512140944.08694.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <200512151537.01508.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <20051215153323.GD31034@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:37:01PM +0800, JM wrote: > hahaha..... im in asia and the box is located in america.. hmm i think that > would do it... Given the longest way around the planet is 40000km, being 100000km away is very hard. You can't actually be more than 20000km away from it, and that even takes some doing. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 16:07:37 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:07:37 +0200 (IST) Subject: skype problem ? Message-ID: Hi all, I have a skype problem, that may actually be a networking problem. I am asking here in the hope that someone has seen this. Skype (on Linux 2.4 and 2.6) 'hiccups' once per second on an adsl connection. Once every second I can see the LAN light on the router freeze, and the sound dies at the same moment, only to start again immediately. The effect is unpleasant. I have tried all the usual things, like QoS in my ip stack and the router's, bumping the task priority and many other things (including MTU/MRU), to no avail. Other voip applications work fine through this setup. At least three Skype versions have the same problem, with 2.4 and 2.6 kernels, .with both alsa and oss drivers. Because if the LAN light freeze I suspect it is a network problem. Has anyone seen this or something similar ? tia, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 17:07:41 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:07:41 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <43A188E1.8070202-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A188E1.8070202@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20051215170740.GA13397@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 10:16:49AM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: >William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >>There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to >>actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. >>I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit >>of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start >>the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and >>that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, >>but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's >>where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. >> >>Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and >>then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I >>don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, >>clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, >>launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render >>nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just >>enough to give me jaggies. >> >>Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. > >Is k3b loading any of your settings on startup or is it just missing paths >to programs? Why not try forcing k3b to load your config file (mine is in >.kde/share/config/k3brc) with the --config option? I can't imagine why it >wouldn't look there when running in a different WM, but it *might* be worth >a try? It was totally worth a try - thank you! It was not loading the config file properly, and now it is, and is working nicely. Thanks again for the help. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 17:15:25 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:15:25 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051215171525.GB13397@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 10:29:22AM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: >On 12/15/05, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to >> actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. > >In effect, KDE *is* the apps; if you think you don't want to use it, >you, by inference don't want to use them. -snip- >There are two perspectives that *are* legitimate: > >1. KDE is an application development framework. >2. KDE is a set of applications that USE that application development >framework. > >If you don't want to use KDE, then you obviously *don't* want the >application framework or the applications. You can't have apps >without the framework. > >The same applies to GNOME, in pretty well identical ways; >s/KDE/GNOME/g as needed. Thanks for the clarification. I do know the difference, but you wouldn't know it from my post. I don't mind the KDE framework, I mind the associated window manager and desktop environment -- it is those that I wish to avoid being burdened with. >None of these are KDE issues. They are issues as to what "helper >applications" k3b depends on happen to be installed. > >I seriously doubt Xnest will do anything to help; if it did, that >would demonstrate something seriously wrong with KDE components, as >the graphical bits operate as X clients. Xnest does fix the problem, and I suspect that there is something seriously wrong with the KDE components - they are/can be designed to rely on components that may not be in use, but they don't fail completely when they are not found. The issue seems to be that k3b was relying on a KDE desktop component to obtain the configuration file, and that was only in place when I ran the desktop in Xnest. Thanks again for the clarification and the input. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:04:01 2005 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:04:01 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home Message-ID: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and ip6tables and it didn't help. I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate Sympatico); e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd appreciate it very much. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:28:28 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:28:28 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <20051215170740.GA13397-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A188E1.8070202@utoronto.ca> <20051215170740.GA13397@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <43A1C3DC.90303@pppoe.ca> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 10:16:49AM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >>William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> >>>There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to >>>actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. >>>I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit >>>of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start >>>the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and >>>that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, >>>but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's >>>where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. >>> >>>Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and >>>then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I >>>don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, >>>clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, >>>launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render >>>nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just >>>enough to give me jaggies. >>> >>>Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. >> >>Is k3b loading any of your settings on startup or is it just missing paths >>to programs? Why not try forcing k3b to load your config file (mine is in >>.kde/share/config/k3brc) with the --config option? I can't imagine why it >>wouldn't look there when running in a different WM, but it *might* be worth >>a try? > > > It was totally worth a try - thank you! It was not loading the config > file properly, and now it is, and is working nicely. Thanks again for > the help. I'm curious as to what distro are you running? If I remember correctly, I had k3b running using xfce on Debian. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:35:54 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:35:54 +0200 (IST) Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: > to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at > an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd > appreciate it very much. DHCP uses broadcast until a server is found. Thus the funny address. Your best chance to find out how it's done it to ask on a local lug, surely there will be someone there who has it going with that provider. good luck, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:37:33 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:37:33 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: First thing to check is the route -n output. It needs to match from your box vs the Mac. If that does not do it, does the pon script (pppoe connection) have the DSL curcuit number in it, or is that set on the modem itself (I can't remember). -Joseph- On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, > > I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having > a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's > house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses > PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have > to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). > > Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to > be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping > anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 > stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS > issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, > so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and ip6tables > and it didn't help. > > I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't > really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has > a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least > it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping > and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) > > Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from > my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things > that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate Sympatico); > e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching > to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at > an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd > appreciate it very much. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:49:03 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:49:03 +0000 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1134586167.9472.6.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1e55af990512151149wd2f1d03t70f2dfe8f89baa86@mail.gmail.com> I've got one of these.. I also got a three pack of latex skins (mp3 player condoms! heh). If you want my spare hot pink or purple it't yours. =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:53:56 2005 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:53:56 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> Thanks. Unfortunately I can't make "route -n" work on the Mac. It responds usage: route [-dnqtv] command [[modifiers] args] So I tried "route -n get", which gave me route: writing to routing socket: Invalid argument Any idea how to find out what the corresponding output should be from the Mac? Quoting Joseph Kubik : > First thing to check is the route -n output. > It needs to match from your box vs the Mac. > > If that does not do it, does the pon script (pppoe connection) have > the DSL curcuit number in it, or is that set on the modem itself (I > can't remember). > -Joseph- > > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, >> >> I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having >> a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's >> house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses >> PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have >> to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). >> >> Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to >> be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping >> anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 >> stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS >> issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, >> so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and ip6tables >> and it didn't help. >> >> I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't >> really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has >> a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least >> it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping >> and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) >> >> Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from >> my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things >> that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate Sympatico); >> e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching >> to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at >> an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd >> appreciate it very much. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:02:22 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:02:22 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: netstat may give you the routing table then? Try netstat -rn -Joseph- On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: > Thanks. Unfortunately I can't make "route -n" work > on the Mac. It responds > usage: route [-dnqtv] command [[modifiers] args] > So I tried "route -n get", which gave me > route: writing to routing socket: Invalid argument > Any idea how to find out what the corresponding output > should be from the Mac? > > Quoting Joseph Kubik : > > > First thing to check is the route -n output. > > It needs to match from your box vs the Mac. > > > > If that does not do it, does the pon script (pppoe connection) have > > the DSL curcuit number in it, or is that set on the modem itself (I > > can't remember). > > -Joseph- > > > > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, > >> > >> I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having > >> a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's > >> house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses > >> PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have > >> to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). > >> > >> Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to > >> be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping > >> anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 > >> stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS > >> issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, > >> so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and ip6tables > >> and it didn't help. > >> > >> I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't > >> really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has > >> a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least > >> it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping > >> and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) > >> > >> Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from > >> my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things > >> that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate Sympatico); > >> e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching > >> to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at > >> an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd > >> appreciate it very much. > >> > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > >> > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:12:57 2005 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:12:57 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> Thanks, that looks like it worked. Unfortunately I don't really know how to interpret the output, except that the key addresses sort of look dynamic to me. Would you have a look and see what you think? Output follows: adsl-67-124-225-163:/etc fayoliver$ netstat -rn Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 63.201.39.254 UGSc 15 15 ppp0 63 ppp0 USc 0 0 ppp0 63.201.39.254 63.201.32.194 UH 16 0 ppp0 127 127.0.0.1 UCS 0 0 lo0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 9 4864 lo0 Internet6: Destination Gateway Flags Netif Expire ::1 link#1 UHL lo0 fe80::%lo0/64 fe80::1%lo0 Uc lo0 fe80::1%lo0 link#1 UHL lo0 ff01::/32 ::1 U lo0 ff02::/32 ::1 UC lo0 Quoting Joseph Kubik : > netstat may give you the routing table then? > Try netstat -rn > -Joseph- > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Thanks. Unfortunately I can't make "route -n" work >> on the Mac. It responds >> usage: route [-dnqtv] command [[modifiers] args] >> So I tried "route -n get", which gave me >> route: writing to routing socket: Invalid argument >> Any idea how to find out what the corresponding output >> should be from the Mac? >> >> Quoting Joseph Kubik : >> >> > First thing to check is the route -n output. >> > It needs to match from your box vs the Mac. >> > >> > If that does not do it, does the pon script (pppoe connection) have >> > the DSL curcuit number in it, or is that set on the modem itself (I >> > can't remember). >> > -Joseph- >> > >> > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >> Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, >> >> >> >> I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having >> >> a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's >> >> house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses >> >> PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have >> >> to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). >> >> >> >> Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to >> >> be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping >> >> anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 >> >> stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS >> >> issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, >> >> so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and ip6tables >> >> and it didn't help. >> >> >> >> I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't >> >> really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has >> >> a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least >> >> it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping >> >> and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) >> >> >> >> Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from >> >> my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things >> >> that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate >> Sympatico); >> >> e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching >> >> to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at >> >> an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like that). I'd >> >> appreciate it very much. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:39:22 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:39:22 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <43A1C3DC.90303-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A188E1.8070202@utoronto.ca> <20051215170740.GA13397@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A1C3DC.90303@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <20051215203922.GA13939@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 02:28:28PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: >>>Is k3b loading any of your settings on startup or is it just missing >>>paths to programs? Why not try forcing k3b to load your config file (mine >>>is in .kde/share/config/k3brc) with the --config option? I can't imagine >>>why it wouldn't look there when running in a different WM, but it *might* >>>be worth a try? >> >> >>It was totally worth a try - thank you! It was not loading the config >>file properly, and now it is, and is working nicely. Thanks again for >>the help. > >I'm curious as to what distro are you running? >If I remember correctly, I had k3b running using xfce on Debian. Debian unstable. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:45:07 2005 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:45:07 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Quoting Joseph Kubik : > 63.201.39.254 is your default router. > On linux, when you run route -n what is the default route set to? > Can you ping the default route? On linux, here's the output: Destination Gateway Genmask Flags ... Iface 70.137.191.254 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH ppp0 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 I can ping 70.137.191.254 (this address changes each time I try it). If I try to ping 192.168.0.0 it asks me if I want to ping broadcast, and suggests "ping -b". I can't ping 192.168.0.1; response is From 192.168.0.6 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable The address 192.168.0.6 is the one currently hardcoded in my KDE "Networking" applet as the manual IP address for eth0. > -Joseph- > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Thanks, that looks like it worked. Unfortunately I don't >> really know how to interpret the output, except that the key >> addresses sort of look dynamic to me. Would you have a look and >> see what you think? Output follows: >> adsl-67-124-225-163:/etc fayoliver$ netstat -rn >> Routing tables >> >> Internet: >> Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire >> default 63.201.39.254 UGSc 15 15 ppp0 >> 63 ppp0 USc 0 0 ppp0 >> 63.201.39.254 63.201.32.194 UH 16 0 ppp0 >> 127 127.0.0.1 UCS 0 0 lo0 >> 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 9 4864 lo0 >> >> Internet6: >> Destination Gateway >> Flags Netif Expire >> ::1 link#1 >> UHL lo0 >> fe80::%lo0/64 fe80::1%lo0 >> Uc lo0 >> fe80::1%lo0 link#1 >> UHL lo0 >> ff01::/32 ::1 >> U lo0 >> ff02::/32 ::1 >> UC lo0 >> >> >> Quoting Joseph Kubik : >> >> > netstat may give you the routing table then? >> > Try netstat -rn >> > -Joseph- >> > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >> Thanks. Unfortunately I can't make "route -n" work >> >> on the Mac. It responds >> >> usage: route [-dnqtv] command [[modifiers] args] >> >> So I tried "route -n get", which gave me >> >> route: writing to routing socket: Invalid argument >> >> Any idea how to find out what the corresponding output >> >> should be from the Mac? >> >> >> >> Quoting Joseph Kubik : >> >> >> >> > First thing to check is the route -n output. >> >> > It needs to match from your box vs the Mac. >> >> > >> >> > If that does not do it, does the pon script (pppoe connection) have >> >> > the DSL curcuit number in it, or is that set on the modem itself (I >> >> > can't remember). >> >> > -Joseph- >> >> > >> >> > On 12/15/05, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Linux gurus and gurettes, >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm running Debian Sarge on a Compaq laptop, and I'm having >> >> >> a bit of trouble making an internet connection from my Mom's >> >> >> house in California. She uses SBC Global DSL, which uses >> >> >> PPPoE. (At home I use Sympatico with PPPoE, but I don't have >> >> >> to worry about it because the modem takes care of it; hers doesn't). >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyway I'm using pon to handle the PPPoE stuff, and that appears to >> >> >> be working; plog tells me I have a connection. But I can't ping >> >> >> anything except the two numeric addresses that appear in the ppp0 >> >> >> stanza in the output from ifconfig. At first I thought it was a DNS >> >> >> issue, but I can't ping numeric addresses that I know are good either, >> >> >> so that's not it. I also (briefly) turned off my iptables and >> ip6tables >> >> >> and it didn't help. >> >> >> >> >> >> I tried switching to DHCP but that didn't work either. (I can't >> >> >> really tell whether my Mom's setup uses DHCP because she has >> >> >> a Mac and I don't know where to find that info on Macs. At least >> >> >> it's OS X, so I can get a terminal window and do ifconfig and ping >> >> >> and traceroute, but so far they haven't told me what I need to know.) >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone have any ideas? I have made this work successfully before from >> >> >> my Mom's place, and her ISP hasn't changed. The most obvious things >> >> >> that I might have changed are my network settings (to accomodate >> >> Sympatico); >> >> >> e.g. I now use a hardcoded IP address for eth0, but again, switching >> >> >> to DHCP didn't help (said it found no DHCPOFFERs, but it was trying at >> >> >> an obviously bogus address, 255.255.255.0 or something like >> that). I'd >> >> >> appreciate it very much. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> >> >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> >> >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > >> >> >> > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From noahbrtn-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:21:16 2005 From: noahbrtn-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Micah) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:21:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512151149wd2f1d03t70f2dfe8f89baa86-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512151149wd2f1d03t70f2dfe8f89baa86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051215202116.83001.qmail@web30404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have to ask: what color is missing? M. Sy Ali wrote: I've got one of these.. I also got a three pack of latex skins (mp3 player condoms! heh). If you want my spare hot pink or purple it't yours. =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:59:51 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:59:51 +0000 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <20051215202116.83001.qmail-50GqTlW84GmvuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512151149wd2f1d03t70f2dfe8f89baa86@mail.gmail.com> <20051215202116.83001.qmail@web30404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512151259l3350c419ge21c867ed38684eb@mail.gmail.com> On 12/15/05, Micah wrote: > I have to ask: what color is missing? I think it's called ice blue.. it's a normal non-dayglow-looking one that doesn't have much colour. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 21:32:12 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:32:12 -0500 Subject: Opinions sought on webserver/mysql server layout Message-ID: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> I've planned a new webserver to host two sites. The server runs Apache, OpenCMS and Metadot. This server sits on our DMZ. I plan to host the database service on a separate server that sits on our internal network. It has been suggested that this is not a good idea. What do you think and why? Can you offer some real world examples of where database servers should be hosted? -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 105 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 22:30:14 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:30:14 +0000 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <20051215144111.GA12573-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <43A1EE76.5000300@zen.co.uk> If it helps I have Kanotix (which is basically debian sid), I have installed kde plus some lightweight window managers, fluxbox is currently default . If you have kde installed, then all the components are there to run kde apps. even if at the time the window manager is something else. This is quite handy as my laptop has 128mb of memory, so I use fluxbox and run kstars through that, with no problem, desktop has 1gb memory but kde is broke somewhere so I am running fluxbox instread. I guess the problem is that doing apt-get install kstars, or a kde app could pull down all of kde, kanotix is due for an upgrade shortly when they finally release 2005-4, which I guess could end up being 2006-1, but that is a different issue. I would assume installing gnome would have the effect of being able to run gnome apps in a different window manager, of course you need a lot of diskspace for this, which kind of defeats the point of having a light weight window manager if you are short on diskspace. It would be interesting to find out how much of kde I need to run kde apps, without acutally having the main user visible component of kde. Paul William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >There are a couple of KDE apps that I'd like to run, but I don't want to >actually use KDE - I use OpenBox on the desktop and wmii on the laptop. >I'm playing with amarok and k3b (and maybe kino later), and after a bit >of poking amarok works fine, but k3b is being an idiot. When I start >the program it complains about not being able to find growisofs, and >that I should install dvd+rw-tools. That'd be fine, if it wasn't there, >but it is. The search paths of k3b include /usr/bin, and since that's >where growisofs is, you'd think that would be enough. > >Better still, if I fire up Xnest and launch KDE in a nested window, and >then launch k3b, it finds growisofs just fine. So I'm at a loss. I >don't really want to run it in Xnest every time because 1) hello, >clunky!, and 2) I haven't found a nice way to open up an Xnest window, >launch KDE in it and then launch k3b. Also, the KDE tries to render >nice, pretty anti-aliased fonts at 1024x768 and Xnest scales things just >enough to give me jaggies. > >Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From slackrat-mOBtk8rjKVpiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 22:40:53 2005 From: slackrat-mOBtk8rjKVpiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (SlackRat) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:40:53 +0100 Subject: help please: Slackware Wireless Connection Message-ID: <006501c601c8$9c015da0$0b01a8c0@darkstar> I have Slackware 10.2 installed on a dual booted Toshiba M40 portable computer. (dos/linux) I am trying to connect to a Wanadoo LiveBox (France Telecom) with a wireless connection. using an 802.11 USB Wireless Network Adapter. ( a LiveBox is a sort of glorified modem ) The connect works just fine under Windows. But I am totally lost with getting Linux connected. So I would like to know the name of the interface and if any special drivers or anything else is needed to get connected. And also how to go about setting the connection up. Thanks in advance for any help anyone might be able to give me. Bill Henderson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 23:23:14 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:23:14 -0500 Subject: Brainshare 2006 TorontoNUI discount Message-ID: <1134688994.4500.25.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Planning on going to Novell Brainshare 2006? Never been? It's basically a massive party for 'wire heads' in Salt Lake City, Utah with technical sessions and serious partying. (http://www.novell.com/brainshare/) Do you have a group of 10 or more people? I'm extending the 20% discount to the Toronto Linux Group as our affiliate. The registration URL for TorontoNUI discount is: http://www.novellbrainshare.com/slc2006/portal/registration/tanui2006 Please be sure you have at least 10 people since I'm not aware of what the total numbers will be. 20% credits will be issued at the end of the month till March/06 once you have reached 10 registrations. Let me know if you have any questions. All the best, Rick Tomaschuk - Chapter President info-PE4J8xSbImWvmauoTqQZlQ at public.gmane.org http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 00:47:14 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 15 Dec 2005 19:47:14 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org writes: > Quoting Joseph Kubik : > > > 63.201.39.254 is your default router. > > On linux, when you run route -n what is the default route set to? > > Can you ping the default route? > > On linux, here's the output: > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags ... Iface > 70.137.191.254 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH ppp0 > 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 > 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 There's your problem. Your default gateway is set to 192.168.0.1, meaning all traffic to destinations not directly connected to eth0 or ppp0 are sent via 192.168.0.1. Do this: # route del -net default gw 192.168.0.1 # route add -net default gw 70.137.191.254 > I can ping 70.137.191.254 (this address changes each time I try it). > If I try to ping 192.168.0.0 it asks me if I want to ping broadcast, > and suggests "ping -b". I can't ping 192.168.0.1; response is > > From 192.168.0.6 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable > > The address 192.168.0.6 is the one currently hardcoded in my KDE > "Networking" applet as the manual IP address for eth0. If you don't need your local LAN, i.e. if you're only connecting to the Internet and nothing else, it would be simpler not to configure eth0. Alternatively, add the defaultroute option to your ppp configuration. This will make pppd add the default route when you bring up your Internet connection. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 00:53:55 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 02:53:55 +0200 (IST) Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2005, Tim Writer wrote: > If you don't need your local LAN, i.e. if you're only connecting to the > Internet and nothing else, it would be simpler not to configure eth0. > > Alternatively, add the defaultroute option to your ppp configuration. This > will make pppd add the default route when you bring up your Internet > connection. The modem is plugged into the LAN I think ? He needs eth0 for that but the default route must point to the ppp interface as you said. If using pppoe eth0 must not be configured when pppoe starts. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 00:22:37 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:22:37 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <20051215203922.GA13939-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A188E1.8070202@utoronto.ca> <20051215170740.GA13397@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A1C3DC.90303@pppoe.ca> <20051215203922.GA13939@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <43A208CD.9000302@pppoe.ca> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 02:28:28PM -0500, Meng Cheah wrote: >>I'm curious as to what distro are you running? >>If I remember correctly, I had k3b running using xfce on Debian. > > > Debian unstable. Thanks. I was running Sarge. I'll give a shot when I have the time :-) Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 01:37:46 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:37:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <43A05393.3000506-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <200512131443.27419.mervc@eol.ca> <43A05393.3000506@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <200512152037.46668.mervc@eol.ca> On Wednesday 14 December 2005 12:17, Meng Cheah wrote: > Merv Curley wrote: > > On Thursday 08 December 2005 23:55, Meng Cheah wrote: > >>I already posted to the Hardware list but am posting here for more > >>coverage :-) > >> > >>Can anyone recommend/suggest an integrated Socket 754 ATX board with > >>builtin video? > > > > Take a look at the ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800. Seems to be a > > possibility. Canadasys.com list it at $68. Also has SATA sockets. > > Thanks. Any experience with ASRock? > -- Well I have had one running for about a year with no problems, and just bought the k8-Upgrade board for another computer upgrade for that reason. I was suspicious about the low price originally but it has worked ok. I didn't go through the spec's carefully enough to see that 'Dimension ' line said micro ATX. Never having tried, does that mean it can't be mounted in an ATX case? I could probably drill a couple of holes easy enough. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 02:18:34 2005 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:18:34 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <43A1EE76.5000300-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A1EE76.5000300@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051216021834.GA14763@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 10:30:14PM +0000, paul sutton wrote: > >I would assume installing gnome would have the effect of being able to >run gnome apps in a different window manager, of course you need a lot >of diskspace for this, which kind of defeats the point of having a light >weight window manager if you are short on diskspace. It would be >interesting to find out how much of kde I need to run kde apps, without >acutally having the main user visible component of kde. A lot of Gnome apps actually only need GTK, so the window manager and other stuff doesn't need to be there. When I said "apt-get install amarok" I got a large dependancy list that entailed about a hundred meg download. This list didn't include the desktop and window manager pieces of KDE, but amarok complained bitterly and was crash-prone until those front-end pieces of the KDE desktop where also installed. My issue isn't disk space, but performance, not because I don't have the hardware, but because I do not require all that other stuff and it does represent a lag. Openbox is blazing fast to launch the two applications I use every day - Firefox and urxvt. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 02:21:51 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:21:51 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <200512152037.46668.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <200512131443.27419.mervc@eol.ca> <43A05393.3000506@pppoe.ca> <200512152037.46668.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <43A224BF.6060707@pppoe.ca> Merv Curley wrote: > Well I have had one running for about a year with no problems, and just > bought the k8-Upgrade board for another computer upgrade for that reason. > I was suspicious about the low price originally but it has worked ok. > > I didn't go through the spec's carefully enough to see that 'Dimension ' > line said micro ATX. Never having tried, does that mean it can't be > mounted in an ATX case? I could probably drill a couple of holes easy > enough. Thanks, Merv. I was looking for an ATX because I wanted more expansion slots. William found a MSI ATX board with onboard video for $75. http://www.infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=8823 MSI K8M NEO-V K8M800 2DDR Aud+Vdo+Lan 5PCI+AGP8X SATA RAID ATX Retail (MS-7032-010) Did your ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800 just work out of the box? LAN, sound, etc? I ask because I was looking at the Asus K8U-X on the Asus site and there were drivers for Ethernet and SATA and the manual was available in French and Chinese. No mention of English. Made me kind of wary :-) You seem to be the pioneer with regard to ULi on the list :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 02:50:46 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:50:46 -0500 Subject: Opinions sought on webserver/mysql server layout In-Reply-To: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> References: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512151850l56fdcfa6s43838847efbe0770@mail.gmail.com> On 12/15/05, Neil Watson wrote: > I've planned a new webserver to host two sites. The server runs > Apache, OpenCMS and Metadot. This server sits on our DMZ. I plan to > host the database service on a separate server that sits on our internal > network. It has been suggested that this is not a good idea. What do > you think and why? Can you offer some real world examples of where > database servers should be hosted? In theory, all machines in the DMZ should be isolated from the machines on your internal network. (Machines in both the internal and external networks should be able to call on "services" that reside in the DMZ though.) Even opening a single port from the DMZ to an internal server poses at least some risk if an attacker gains access. Then again, putting the database server in the DMZ poses it's own risk as well. In practice I don't think it's always very clear cut. There's a bunch of factors involved in finding the solution - politics (particularly in business), how secure the data in the database server needs to be, known security issues with the database server packages, performance, etc. Determine the factors critical to the application, weigh risks and implementation cost against your security needs, and settle on a decision. Network security is never perfect, but it is a worthwhile goal. I don't have any real-world examples to give. Sorry 'bout that. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 03:02:14 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:02:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Looking for integrated Socket 754 ATX board with builtin video In-Reply-To: <43A224BF.6060707-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43990E43.30207@pppoe.ca> <200512152037.46668.mervc@eol.ca> <43A224BF.6060707@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <200512152202.14392.mervc@eol.ca> On Thursday 15 December 2005 21:21, Meng Cheah wrote: > > Did your ASRock K8 Upgrade VM800 just work out of the box? > LAN, sound, etc? > I ask because I was looking at the Asus K8U-X on the Asus site and there > were drivers for Ethernet and SATA and the manual was available in > French and Chinese. No mention of English. Made me kind of wary :-) > > You seem to be the pioneer with regard to ULi on the list :-) > > I didn't buy the VM800, my box sez CPU EZ K8 Upgrade which seems like the K8 Upgrade NF3 which is on the web site now. It is ATX and no Video. I didn't buy with the intention of ever using it for a 64 bit chip, by the time I need 64 bit I'll get a proper MB. It was cheap - - - -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 03:33:57 2005 From: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:33:57 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20051215223357.4qi8xgyk0sw0c0sk@mail.math.yorku.ca> Quoting Tim Writer : > moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org writes: > >> Quoting Joseph Kubik : >> >> > 63.201.39.254 is your default router. >> > On linux, when you run route -n what is the default route set to? >> > Can you ping the default route? >> >> On linux, here's the output: >> Destination Gateway Genmask Flags ... Iface >> 70.137.191.254 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH ppp0 >> 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 >> 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 > > There's your problem. Your default gateway is set to 192.168.0.1, meaning all > traffic to destinations not directly connected to eth0 or ppp0 are sent via > 192.168.0.1. Do this: > > # route del -net default gw 192.168.0.1 > # route add -net default gw 70.137.191.254 Thanks, that worked. Not with 70.137.191.254 of course, but rather with the new IP it came up with this time. Any way I can make this automatic, preferably in a way I can easily reverse when I go back to T.O.? I'm afraid I didn't really understand the advice about adding defaultroute to the ppp configuration or not configuring eth0. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 03:48:09 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:48:09 -0500 Subject: Running k3b without KDE In-Reply-To: <43A1EE76.5000300-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215144111.GA12573@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <43A1EE76.5000300@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, paul sutton wrote: > I would assume installing gnome would have the effect of being able to > run gnome apps in a different window manager, At the moment, I'm composing this using Galeon, a notable Gnome app, and I'm running the wmx window manager, which is anything but "gnomely." > of course you need a lot > of diskspace for this, which kind of defeats the point of having a light > weight window manager if you are short on diskspace. wmx is pretty small... > It would be > interesting to find out how much of kde I need to run kde apps, without > acutally having the main user visible component of kde. That depends on the application, and precisely which of the services (and hence libraries) it needs. It should be pretty easy to determine this on an app-by-app basis on Debian... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 03:53:57 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:53:57 -0500 Subject: Opinions sought on webserver/mysql server layout In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512151850l56fdcfa6s43838847efbe0770-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>; from psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 09:50:46PM -0500 References: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> <99a6c38f0512151850l56fdcfa6s43838847efbe0770@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051215225357.C3880@diamond.ss.org> I agree with Scott. there is no right answer to this question. The question you should ask is how important is the data in the database. Consider two example: 1) the data in the database is configuration data for the webpages such as php pages. In this case a database should definitely be in the DMZ. There is no point in opening a possible security hole for this type of data. 2) The data in the database is credit card numbers of customer. In this case this should be in the internal network. The extra security risk is more than compensated by an increase in the security offered by requiring the intruder to break into two different machines. I hope this helps. Bill On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 09:50:46PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/15/05, Neil Watson wrote: > > I've planned a new webserver to host two sites. The server runs > > Apache, OpenCMS and Metadot. This server sits on our DMZ. I plan to > > host the database service on a separate server that sits on our internal > > network. It has been suggested that this is not a good idea. What do > > you think and why? Can you offer some real world examples of where > > database servers should be hosted? > > In theory, all machines in the DMZ should be isolated from the > machines on your internal network. (Machines in both the internal and > external networks should be able to call on "services" that reside in > the DMZ though.) > > Even opening a single port from the DMZ to an internal server poses at > least some risk if an attacker gains access. Then again, putting the > database server in the DMZ poses it's own risk as well. > > In practice I don't think it's always very clear cut. There's a bunch > of factors involved in finding the solution - politics (particularly > in business), how secure the data in the database server needs to be, > known security issues with the database server packages, performance, > etc. > > Determine the factors critical to the application, weigh risks and > implementation cost against your security needs, and settle on a > decision. Network security is never perfect, but it is a worthwhile > goal. > > I don't have any real-world examples to give. Sorry 'bout that. ;-) > > -- > Scott Elcomb > psema4.gotdns.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 04:40:19 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 15 Dec 2005 23:40:19 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: Peter writes: > On Fri, 15 Dec 2005, Tim Writer wrote: > > > If you don't need your local LAN, i.e. if you're only connecting to the > > Internet and nothing else, it would be simpler not to configure eth0. > > > > Alternatively, add the defaultroute option to your ppp configuration. This > > will make pppd add the default route when you bring up your Internet > > connection. > > The modem is plugged into the LAN I think ? He needs eth0 for that Of course, that was dumb of me. :-) > If using pppoe eth0 must not be configured when pppoe starts. Yep. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 04:52:49 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 15 Dec 2005 23:52:49 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215223357.4qi8xgyk0sw0c0sk-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215223357.4qi8xgyk0sw0c0sk@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org writes: > Quoting Tim Writer : > > > moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org writes: > > > >> Quoting Joseph Kubik : > >> > >> > 63.201.39.254 is your default router. > >> > On linux, when you run route -n what is the default route set to? > >> > Can you ping the default route? > >> > >> On linux, here's the output: > >> Destination Gateway Genmask Flags ... Iface > >> 70.137.191.254 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH ppp0 > >> 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 > >> 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 > > > > There's your problem. Your default gateway is set to 192.168.0.1, meaning all > > traffic to destinations not directly connected to eth0 or ppp0 are sent via > > 192.168.0.1. Do this: > > > > # route del -net default gw 192.168.0.1 > > # route add -net default gw 70.137.191.254 > > Thanks, that worked. Not with 70.137.191.254 of course, but rather > with the new IP it came up with this time. Any way I can make this > automatic, preferably in a way I can easily reverse when I go > back to T.O.? I'm afraid I didn't really understand the advice > about adding defaultroute to the ppp configuration or not configuring > eth0. The PPP server (pppd) accepts a "defaultroute" option. This tells pppd to make it (the PPP connection) the default route once the connection has been established. I think you said you're using Debian Sarge. On Debian, you simply add "defaultroute" to your /etc/ppp/peers/dsl-provider configuration file. It's probably there already but commented out. This assumes you're starting pppd with: # pon dsl-provider About eth0. Generally, you shouldn't configure an IP address on an Ethernet interface used for PPPoE. I think you mentioned you were using a GUI tool to configure it. Disabling the device in the GUI tool (or telling it not to start on boot) will probably have the desired affect. The easiest way to reverse this when you return is to create a separate configuration for when you're away. I think you said you were visiting your mother. Just do this: # cd /etc/ppp/peers # cp -a dsl-provider mother Now, modify "mother" accordingly and revert "dsl-provider" to your default settings for Toronto. To start PPPoE when visiting your Mother: # pon mother To start it in T.O.: # pon dsl-provider HTH, -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 05:14:23 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 16 Dec 2005 00:14:23 -0500 Subject: Opinions sought on webserver/mysql server layout In-Reply-To: <20051215225357.C3880-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> <99a6c38f0512151850l56fdcfa6s43838847efbe0770@mail.gmail.com> <20051215225357.C3880@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: I also agree and can offer this rule of thumb. If there are little or no consequences to having the data stolen or tampered with, leave the database in the DMZ. By putting the database in your private network, you would be reducing the security of your private network in order to protect worthless data. On the other hand, if there are consequences to having the data stolen or compromised, you would be well advised to take additional steps to protect it. In other words, you must assume the servers in the DMZ will be broken into. As has been mentioned, one way to protect the data is to put the database on your private LAN but that exposes it (your LAN) to some risk. An alternative is to create a second DMZ for the database server. Your firewall then allows database traffic from the web DMZ to the database DMZ and from your private LAN to the database DMZ but not from the web DMZ to your private LAN and not from the Internet to the database DMZ. A third alternative is to create a simple, single purpose backend daemon to provide only the limited set of functions required for your web application. If written carefully, this single purpose server _might be_ more secure than a full blown database. billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > I agree with Scott. there is no right answer to this question. > > The question you should ask is how important is the data in the database. > > Consider two example: 1) the data in the database is configuration data for > the webpages such as php pages. In this case a database should definitely be > in the DMZ. There is no point in opening a possible security hole for this > type of data. > > 2) The data in the database is credit card numbers of customer. In this case > this should be in the internal network. The extra security risk is more than > compensated by an increase in the security offered by requiring the intruder > to break into two different machines. > > I hope this helps. > > Bill On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 09:50:46PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On 12/15/05, Neil Watson wrote: > > > I've planned a new webserver to host two sites. The server runs Apache, > > >OpenCMS and Metadot. This server sits on our DMZ. I plan to host the > > >database service on a separate server that sits on our internal network. > > >It has been suggested that this is not a good idea. What do you think and > > >why? Can you offer some real world examples of where database servers > > >should be hosted? > > In theory, all machines in the DMZ should be isolated from the machines on > >your internal network. (Machines in both the internal and external networks > >should be able to call on "services" that reside in the DMZ though.) > > > > Even opening a single port from the DMZ to an internal server poses at > >least some risk if an attacker gains access. Then again, putting the > >database server in the DMZ poses it's own risk as well. > > > > In practice I don't think it's always very clear cut. There's a bunch of > >factors involved in finding the solution - politics (particularly in > >business), how secure the data in the database server needs to be, known > >security issues with the database server packages, performance, etc. > > > > Determine the factors critical to the application, weigh risks and > >implementation cost against your security needs, and settle on a decision. > >Network security is never perfect, but it is a worthwhile goal. > > > > I don't have any real-world examples to give. Sorry 'bout that. ;-) > > > > -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. > >Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > >below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 15:19:19 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:19:19 -0500 Subject: Opinions sought on webserver/mysql server layout In-Reply-To: References: <20051215213212.GB28543@ettin> <99a6c38f0512151850l56fdcfa6s43838847efbe0770@mail.gmail.com> <20051215225357.C3880@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On 16 Dec 2005 00:14:23 -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > I also agree and can offer this rule of thumb. If there are little or no > consequences to having the data stolen or tampered with, leave the > database > in the DMZ. By putting the database in your private network, you would be > reducing the security of your private network in order to protect > worthless > data. On the other hand, if there are consequences to having the data > stolen > or compromised, you would be well advised to take additional steps to > protect > it. In other words, you must assume the servers in the DMZ will be broken > into. > > As has been mentioned, one way to protect the data is to put the database > on > your private LAN but that exposes it (your LAN) to some risk. An > alternative > is to create a second DMZ for the database server. Your firewall then > allows > database traffic from the web DMZ to the database DMZ and from your > private > LAN to the database DMZ but not from the web DMZ to your private LAN and > not > from the Internet to the database DMZ. A third alternative is to create > a simple, single purpose backend daemon to provide only the limited set of > functions required for your web application. If written carefully, this > single purpose server _might be_ more secure than a full blown database. To follow on that, you could hook the database server directly to the web server through another NIC, with their own little 192.168.128.x network, for example. No other computer is connected to the database server, just the web server, and the database server only accepts connections from the web server. In effect, the two servers look like one larger server. Of course, doing backups may present problems, but that's a story for another day .. and may not even be necessary. Alex billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org writes: > > > I agree with Scott. there is no right answer to this question. > > > > The question you should ask is how important is the data in the > database. > > > > Consider two example: 1) the data in the database is configuration data > for > > the webpages such as php pages. In this case a database should > definitely be > > in the DMZ. There is no point in opening a possible security hole for > this > > type of data. > > > > 2) The data in the database is credit card numbers of customer. In this > case > > this should be in the internal network. The extra security risk is more > than > > compensated by an increase in the security offered by requiring the > intruder > > to break into two different machines. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Bill On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 09:50:46PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > > On 12/15/05, Neil Watson wrote: > > > > I've planned a new webserver to host two sites. The server runs > Apache, > > > >OpenCMS and Metadot. This server sits on our DMZ. I plan to host > the > > > >database service on a separate server that sits on our internal > network. > > > >It has been suggested that this is not a good idea. What do you > think and > > > >why? Can you offer some real world examples of where database > servers > > > >should be hosted? > > > In theory, all machines in the DMZ should be isolated from the > machines on > > >your internal network. (Machines in both the internal and external > networks > > >should be able to call on "services" that reside in the DMZ though.) > > > > > > Even opening a single port from the DMZ to an internal server poses at > > >least some risk if an attacker gains access. Then again, putting the > > >database server in the DMZ poses it's own risk as well. > > > > > > In practice I don't think it's always very clear cut. There's a bunch > of > > >factors involved in finding the solution - politics (particularly in > > >business), how secure the data in the database server needs to be, > known > > >security issues with the database server packages, performance, etc. > > > > > > Determine the factors critical to the application, weigh risks and > > >implementation cost against your security needs, and settle on a > decision. > > >Network security is never perfect, but it is a worthwhile goal. > > > > > > I don't have any real-world examples to give. Sorry 'bout that. ;-) > > > > > > -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. > > >Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap > text > > >below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > tim writer starnix inc. > 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada > http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 15:42:29 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter Armstrong) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:42:29 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? Message-ID: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c@mail.gmail.com> > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: > > > On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb > wrote: > > > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong > > wrote: > > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar > > for .ca dn's? > > > > > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - > > http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names > > > > > > Actually, if you try to purchase a .ca from Netfirms, the final price is $18.09, not $9.95 as advertised!! Double what they advertise(!). They add on $6.95 for "Shipping & Handling Surface Mail (CAN)"(?!), and of course gst of $1.19, for a total $18.09 -Peter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 17:26:27 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:26:27 +0000 Subject: TLUG vs. GTALUG In-Reply-To: References: <20051207173521.C25423@diamond.ss.org> <20051208181559.GA2530@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051209215523.GA2660@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1e55af990512160926k7f9fdee5sdede6b79037625c@mail.gmail.com> Regarding the confusion with finding WestTLUG and possibly other groups.. I've made the opensource computing groups more visible by adding an "other groups" link in the sidebar of the wiki. http://www.gtalug.org http://www.gtalug.org/wiki/Toronto_opensource_computing_groups Regards, Sy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 18:50:23 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:50:23 -0500 Subject: Can't make connection away from home In-Reply-To: <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco-eRF/mgt17vYuqM34mc2EBrDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org> References: <20051215140401.dvjygghuokcko0sg@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215145356.r2ujwpt5440owsws@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215151257.6hcqjs1wckk8c0oc@mail.math.yorku.ca> <20051215154507.3dqy7ukc8wk40gco@mail.math.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20051216185023.GE31034@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:45:07PM -0500, moliver-fC0AHe2n+mcIvw5+aKnW+Pd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org wrote: > Quoting Joseph Kubik : > > >63.201.39.254 is your default router. > >On linux, when you run route -n what is the default route set to? > >Can you ping the default route? > > On linux, here's the output: > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags ... Iface > 70.137.191.254 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH ppp0 > 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 > 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 You have a gateway set on eth0. If that is _not_ your internet connection, then you must get rid of it. You can only have one gateway at a time and ppp won't add one if there is already one present. > I can ping 70.137.191.254 (this address changes each time I try it). > If I try to ping 192.168.0.0 it asks me if I want to ping broadcast, > and suggests "ping -b". I can't ping 192.168.0.1; response is > > From 192.168.0.6 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable > > The address 192.168.0.6 is the one currently hardcoded in my KDE > "Networking" applet as the manual IP address for eth0. The behaviour appears perfectly reasonable given the gateway misconfiguration. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 19:40:38 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:40:38 +0000 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools Message-ID: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Hi I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in getting open source into schools and if they could share their experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work initially, Thanks Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 19:54:08 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:54:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <22311.207.236.219.129.1134762848.squirrel@www.lijour.net> Hi I teach in a high-school here in Toronto and I did some advocacy work with my board. Apparently boards are tough, they are not very open to suggestions and they run the business in a top-down fashion. To my knowledge the North York board of education is better at listening and providing equipment. All my propositions to do some extra work for free with my board were refused :-) (I am not even authorized to get the list of my students' usernames!) > Hi > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC lug > are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I think > in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work initially, > > Thanks > > Paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:01:29 2005 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:01:29 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> (paul sutton's message of "Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:40:38 +0000") References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <87d5jwn752.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> paul sutton writes: > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their I gave a few presentations on Linux in the academe back in the Philippines, and I've always strongly advocated open source development for computing students and open source use for everyone else. =) I also keep in touch with teachers and students back home. I'd love to chat about Linux and schools. Sacha -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:04:13 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:04:13 +0000 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <87d5jwn752.fsf-uD3Dy0p8L8fv7aDZy8m+EugtjjKxYvVk@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <87d5jwn752.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Message-ID: <43A31DBD.1050102@zen.co.uk> Interesting as Tom, one of the guys on this project has been sending kit to the pilippines for a school there, I think his wife is from there. I know there are not that many schools with IT kit. The school is using LTSP. Paul Sacha Chua wrote: >paul sutton writes: > > > >>I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in >>getting open source into schools and if they could share their >> >> > >I gave a few presentations on Linux in the academe back in the >Philippines, and I've always strongly advocated open source >development for computing students and open source use for everyone >else. =) I also keep in touch with teachers and students back home. >I'd love to chat about Linux and schools. > >Sacha > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:14:13 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:14:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <87d5jwn752.fsf-uD3Dy0p8L8fv7aDZy8m+EugtjjKxYvVk@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <87d5jwn752.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Message-ID: <50190.207.236.219.129.1134764053.squirrel@www.lijour.net> > paul sutton writes: > >> I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in >> getting open source into schools and if they could share their > > I gave a few presentations on Linux in the academe back in the > Philippines, and I've always strongly advocated open source > development for computing students and open source use for everyone > else. =) I also keep in touch with teachers and students back home. > I'd love to chat about Linux and schools. I'd be interested. I believe the right approach would be to propose a ready-to-use solution. Ballmer was in Ottawa last week, the government is giving $4.5 million dollars to the schools over the next years... My board is about to switch from win98 to winXP and to equip all stations with MS Office (currently Corel and StarOffice). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:16:14 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:16:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31DBD.1050102-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <87d5jwn752.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> <43A31DBD.1050102@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <50755.207.236.219.129.1134764174.squirrel@www.lijour.net> An Australian company was offering for a couple of hundreds a piece of hardware plugnplay running linux LTSP. > Interesting as Tom, one of the guys on this project has been sending kit > to the pilippines for a school there, I think his wife is from there. I > know there are not that many schools with IT kit. The school is using > LTSP. > > Paul > > Sacha Chua wrote: > >>paul sutton writes: >> >> >> >>>I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in >>>getting open source into schools and if they could share their >>> >>> >> >>I gave a few presentations on Linux in the academe back in the >>Philippines, and I've always strongly advocated open source >>development for computing students and open source use for everyone >>else. =) I also keep in touch with teachers and students back home. >>I'd love to chat about Linux and schools. >> >>Sacha >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:44:40 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:44:40 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> paul sutton wrote: > Hi > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC > lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I > think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. Hi Paul, This article I wrote is five years old and it's not about Canadian schools, but it's still within the Commonwealth :-) -- I hope you'll find it useful. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503108.html - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:45:41 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:45:41 -0500 Subject: Memory leak In-Reply-To: <43A0CAED.8090008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200512111049.04912.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200512111228.13528.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <439C6261.8060302@rogers.com> <200512111255.08092.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <43A0CAED.8090008@rogers.com> Message-ID: So.... What is Heap memory and why does it leak out sometimes? -Joseph- On 12/14/05, James Knott wrote: > wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > > On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:31 pm, James Knott wrote: > > > >> Well, the first thing you want to do, is put a bit bucket under your > >> computer. ;-) > > Is this the one with a carry handle or the one without it ?? > > Yes. ;-) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:55:21 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:55:21 -0500 Subject: [OT] my employer's looking for peopl Message-ID: <43A329B9.1040608@rogers.com> Hey folks, My employer, nCircle, (and me! I need extra time to slack off ;) are looking for people: (http://ncircle.com/index.php?s=company_jobs) Toronto/ Canada: * VERT Engineer * VERT QA Engineer * VERT QA Lead Engineer * VERT Systems Administrator * VERT Tools Developer (If yer curious what VERT stands for, it's vulnerability exposure research and testing.) It's a pretty cool place to work. If you send in a resume or anything, please mention how you found out about it. Ethical disclosure: I get $1000 if you get hired and you mentioned me as your source. But I hereby promise to refund 25% of that to you in the form of celebratory beer, alcohol and food if you get hired :) Cheers, Byron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 21:00:01 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:00:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A32738.7090905-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> Message-ID: <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > This article I wrote is five years old and it's not about Canadian > schools, but it's still within the Commonwealth :-) -- I hope you'll > find it useful. > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503108.html That's an interesting article, Evan. Do you have any sense of whether there has been progress on that front in the intervening years? Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 22:58:17 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:58:17 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:40:38PM +0000, paul sutton wrote: > Hi > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC > lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I > think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work > initially, It will likely be waste of time. Not sure how UK schools are funded, but here Ontario Gov funds the school. Tough sell to begin with. Then, you have to deal with IT staffs at Ministry of Education, various school boards, and then teachers/secretary. None will welcome Linux, because Linux threatens their job security. And, you can't fire those people who refuses to learn Linux. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 23:50:49 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:50:49 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> Hi Peter, >>http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503108.html >> >> > >That's an interesting article, Evan. Do you have any sense of whether >there has been progress on that front in the intervening years? > > I do know that the Jamaican government has started to learn about the merits of open source and more schools have started to use it. Now that this is happening, though, there's another threat. Microsoft is giving huge handouts to developing countries, sometimes in cash or computers but often in "forgiven" illegal licenses, in order to maintain the dependency and increase obstacles to change. At a UN conference I attended earlier this year in Geneva, the biggest detractors of FOSS amazingly came from some of the poorest countries, whose representatives might as well have been reading a prepared script singing the praises of proprietary vendors. The most vocal, I recall, was Zimbabwe. (That conference was also memorable to me, because at the speakers' dinner organizers accidentally sat Stallman next to the lawyer from Microsoft and me right across from them ;-) ). Thankfully, the politics isn't stopping the action at the grassroots level, but as is so often the case there's little support from above. The large Microsoft grants to the United Nations Development Program hasn't prevented many regional office of the UNDP from still being very pro-open-source, however their doing so right now goes against the "party line". And thankfully there are many NGOs out there who understand the drug-pusher-style tactics of cutting prices (or handing out free samples) in order to build or maintain dependency. But it's still an uphill climb. Notably, the above tactics have been used without any success at all in China, where one company estimated that almost one in three desktops now run Linux and the gap continues to close. Just my opinions, of course. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 00:16:08 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:16:08 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051216225816.GA3127-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> On Friday 16 December 2005 17:58, William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:40:38PM +0000, paul sutton wrote: > > Hi > > > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC > > lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I > > think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > > > > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work > > initially, > > It will likely be waste of time. Not sure how UK schools are funded, > but here Ontario Gov funds the school. Tough sell to begin with. Then, > you have to deal with IT staffs at Ministry of Education, various school > boards, and then teachers/secretary. None will welcome Linux, because > Linux threatens their job security. Please allow some exception there ;-) > And, you can't fire those people > who refuses to learn Linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 00:21:56 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:21:56 -0500 Subject: Steve Ballmer responds... In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512161921.56207.marc@lijour.net> I found this link: "Microsoft's Ballmer jumps on productivity bandwagon Computer giant gives $4.5 million for training, education China, India graduating more computer scientists, CEO says Dec. 7, 2005. 06:53 AM" http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1133910613389&call_pageid=970599119419 and also this one from Ottawa: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/onlineextras/story.html?id=9025308d-8bf9-4f67-b472-920febe6ca5e&k=99239 Cheers, Marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 01:13:43 2005 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:13:43 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> Message-ID: <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Thankfully, the politics isn't stopping the action at the grassroots > level, but as is so often the case there's little support from above. There's a project in the Extremadura region of Spain, where the federal govt (to help out one of it's poorer regions) and the local government and education authorities have got 60,000 machines installed with Linux and Squeak Etoys. (It seems like 80,000 machines now, but I can't be sure since it's in Spanish). The Etoys environment is designed for children (optimally in Grade 5) as an environment for learning. Here are some links (some are Spanish sites though): http://www.linex.org http://squeak.linex.org http://www.small-land.org http://www.squeakland.org BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up his/her name if anyone is interested. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 01:59:26 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:59:26 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <200512161916.09436.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:16:08PM -0500, Marc Lijour wrote: > On Friday 16 December 2005 17:58, William Park wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:40:38PM +0000, paul sutton wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > > > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > > > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > > > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > > > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC > > > lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I > > > think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > > > > > > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > > > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > > > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work > > > initially, > > > > It will likely be waste of time. Not sure how UK schools are funded, > > but here Ontario Gov funds the school. Tough sell to begin with. Then, > > you have to deal with IT staffs at Ministry of Education, various school > > boards, and then teachers/secretary. None will welcome Linux, because > > Linux threatens their job security. > > Please allow some exception there ;-) > > > And, you can't fire those people > > who refuses to learn Linux. Okey, except one that I know of. :-) But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision makers and IT staffs. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 02:12:42 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:12:42 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A3741A.7010009@rogers.com> While not quite open source, Ontario schools are supposedly using StarOffice, according to an announcement a while ago. The use of StarOffice can only encourage the use of OpenOffice and both of them help encourage use of Linux. paul sutton wrote: > Hi > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC lug > are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), I think > in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work initially, > > Thanks > > Paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 02:41:24 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:41:24 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051216225816.GA3127-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, William Park wrote: > It will likely be waste of time. Not sure how UK schools are funded, > but here Ontario Gov funds the school. Tough sell to begin with. Then, > you have to deal with IT staffs at Ministry of Education, various school > boards, and then teachers/secretary. None will welcome Linux, because > Linux threatens their job security. And, you can't fire those people > who refuses to learn Linux. These are all things that can change slant with remarkable rapidity. There are those who were involved in getting Windows-based things committed into the political infrastructure who would discover their job security threatened by ANY change to that. Linux hasn't got "account executives" to schmooze people towards it; certainly that component of the upper/middle management that play golf with vendors would find themselves threatened by something that is absent of that. However, there's always a "flip side." For the vast majority of teachers, this in NO WAY represents a threat to their job security. To the contrary, it would represent an opportunity for them to attend dozens of "professional education" presentations which are the means by which the rank and file work on their 'educational seniority.' We have seen these sorts of "sea changes" take place on several occasions, albeit involving computer systems with fairly highly funded sales forces: - Way back when, Apple held the market, with the Apple ][ everywhere; - As that aged, IBM PC systems replaced this; - As MS-DOS aged, Microsoft Windows replaced this. We most certainly are at a stage where Microsoft Windows has aspects that are "long in the tooth." We *don't* have someone heavily funded that is selling Linux into there as successor, but that doesn't mean there can't be another "sea change." -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 04:09:24 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:09:24 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A36647.E352D2C-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> > BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has > some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up > his/her name if anyone is interested. Interesting, it seems there is some progress... (actually, I _would_ like to know the trustee's name) About a year ago, I've talked to the head of IT at the TDSB regarding Linux. The board's view is approximately this: the OS is just a place to run programs. Many of these programs, like Geometer's Sketchpad, VB 6.0, etc. are tightly integrated into the curriculum. Some textbooks assume Sketchpad will be used and have tutorials for it. As far as I know, there are no Linux-native versions of ~90-95% of the software the board wants to be available in classrooms. This is why Linux is mostly left to the occasional knolwdgeable comp sci. teacher to tinker with in the labs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 05:02:40 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:02:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> There is also the issue that teachers are often totally occupied by teaching. They don't have time to deal with *any* glitches or idiosyncracies in the operating system. So for it to be accepted, it has to be a completely turnkey, foolproof operation. -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 05:25:08 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:25:08 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > There is also the issue that teachers are often totally occupied by > teaching. They don't have time to deal with *any* glitches or > idiosyncracies in the operating system. So for it to be accepted, it has > to be a completely turnkey, foolproof operation. That _feels_ contradictory... Windows is anything but "foolproof" unless it is being managed in some pretty spectacularly draconian manner. It's so easy for it to be totally destabilized as soon as you have the ability to (say) access the Internet by virtue of the all-too-common virus-deployment mechanisms like IE/OE... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 06:29:50 2005 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:29:50 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A3B05E.AF812D83@rogers.com> Igor Denisov wrote: > > > BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has > > some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up > > his/her name if anyone is interested. > > Interesting, it seems there is some progress... > (actually, I _would_ like to know the trustee's name) Here's a link and a quote. http://squeakland.org/pipermail/squeakland/2004-January/001936.html ==== [Squeakland] Squeaker News.... Squeak in Spain! Mankovsky, Sheine sheine.mankovsky2 at tdsb.on.ca Wed Jan 21 20:46:42 PST 2004 I have just had a look at the information on the Spain project, Kim. HUGE congratulations to all the people who contributed to this landmark undertaking! I can't think of a more significant combination for kids than Linux, laptops and learning with Squeak. Sheine Mankovsky Trustee, Ward 5 Toronto District School Board -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 06:49:24 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:49:24 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512170149.25785.marc@lijour.net> On Friday 16 December 2005 23:09, Igor Denisov wrote: > > BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has > > some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up > > his/her name if anyone is interested. > > Interesting, it seems there is some progress... > (actually, I _would_ like to know the trustee's name) > > About a year ago, I've talked to the head of IT at the TDSB regarding > Linux. > > The board's view is approximately this: the OS is just a place to run > programs. > > Many of these programs, like Geometer's Sketchpad, VB 6.0, etc. are > tightly integrated into the curriculum. > Some textbooks assume Sketchpad will be used and have tutorials for it. Is it really the curriculum or an option taken by book authors? > As far as I know, there are no Linux-native versions of ~90-95% of the > software the board wants to be available in classrooms. I observed this. Teachers know about programs (specially in primary), they want them and these usually have to run on Win$ (exclusively). > This is why Linux is mostly left to the occasional knolwdgeable comp > sci. teacher to tinker with in the labs. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 06:52:40 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:52:40 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051217015926.GA3894-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512170152.40350.marc@lijour.net> On Friday 16 December 2005 20:59, William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:16:08PM -0500, Marc Lijour wrote: > > On Friday 16 December 2005 17:58, William Park wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 07:40:38PM +0000, paul sutton wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > > > > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > > > > experience. In the Uk I have just joined with some of the more local > > > > linux users to promote Linux in torbay, partly as we live locally so > > > > it's much easier to do things on a local level, the rest of the DC > > > > lug are spread over quite a big distance (Well in Uk terms anyway), > > > > I think in the uk no one is more than about 75 miles from the coast. > > > > > > > > As i am planning to be in the Toronto area about End of April / May I > > > > will hopefully be able to take part in group meetings, and possibly > > > > projects, even though I am also going to be looking for work > > > > initially, > > > > > > It will likely be waste of time. Not sure how UK schools are funded, > > > but here Ontario Gov funds the school. Tough sell to begin with. > > > Then, you have to deal with IT staffs at Ministry of Education, various > > > school boards, and then teachers/secretary. None will welcome Linux, > > > because Linux threatens their job security. > > > > Please allow some exception there ;-) > > > > > And, you can't fire those people > > > who refuses to learn Linux. > > Okey, except one that I know of. :-) > > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > makers and IT staffs. Exactly. It would be nice to have a model school (with the help of some visionaries), and then get the experience up to the media showcasing extraordinary activities to get the attention.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 14:16:52 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:16:52 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051217015926.GA3894-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>; from opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 08:59:26PM -0500 References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051217091652.E3880@diamond.ss.org> > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > makers and IT staffs. > There was a time when the IT industry was portrayed as the vanguard of technological change that would make government and industry more efficient. Today the unions are welecome it as expensive make work projects. What happened? Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 14:38:17 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:38:17 +0200 (IST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051217015926.GA3894-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, William Park wrote: > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > makers and IT staffs. Why would Linux be a job killer ?! It's a job killer in the sense that, if adopted, the IT department will no longer have the grueling janitorial job of carting and marshalling megabytes of spam, pron and malware to the bit bucket, and they will advance beyond the all-time intellectual low point of 'reinstalling' more often than anything else, to doing real, useful work, shaping and configuring their systems, and seeing them do what they tell them to. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 14:59:34 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:59:34 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 04:38:17PM +0200 References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 04:38:17PM +0200, Peter wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, William Park wrote: > > > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. > > > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > > makers and IT staffs. > > Why would Linux be a job killer ?! It's a job killer in the sense that, > if adopted, the IT department will no longer have the grueling > janitorial job of carting and marshalling megabytes of spam, pron and > malware to the bit bucket, and they will advance beyond the all-time > intellectual low point of 'reinstalling' more often than anything else, > to doing real, useful work, shaping and configuring their systems, and > seeing them do what they tell them to. > You over-estimate the number of people a linux system would need to run. I have worked in a world where there was hundreds of Solaris X-terminals run by a dozen backend systems. There was only one part time admin for all this. You also over-estimate the motivation of many window admins. Although there are a few that are truly interested in computers the vast majority are content to 'reinstall' windows as their only skill because its an easy job. Those are the ones shouting the loudest against any change. Their only skill will become obselete, they don't want to learn anything new, and they have the ear of upper management as 'insiders' looking out for the company. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 15:57:35 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:57:35 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <200512170149.25785.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <200512170149.25785.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265@mail.gmail.com> > > Many of these programs, like Geometer's Sketchpad, VB 6.0, etc. are > > tightly integrated into the curriculum. > > Some textbooks assume Sketchpad will be used and have tutorials for it. > Is it really the curriculum or an option taken by book authors? Hmm... both? A quick google search (Geometer's Sketchpad tdsb) reveals this (and more): =========== From: http://schools.tdsb.on.ca/SAME/samefiles/Sec.sessions.htm With the Ministry-licensed Geometer's Sketchpad Version 4, students can explore and learn concepts in the new "Advanced Functions and Introductory Calculus" dynamically. Through step-by-step instructions, students will construct, investigate, and develop meaning to concepts. Participants will receive a healthy package of classroom-ready worksheets that can be put to use immediately in the MCB 4U course. =========== And this brings up another important detail: a lot of the software the board uses is licensed by the Ministry of Education and made free (IIRC) for any Ontario school to use. Perhaps getting the Ministry of Ed. to "license" some OSS Linux software would lead to a trickle-down effect, where convincing the TDSB to support Linux would become easier (and making this so called OSS software free to the board :-) My personal opinion at this time is that Linux will work best in TDSB's CS labs. There, the few knowledgeable, 'renegade' teachers will teach C with Vim/Emacs/Kdevelop and GCC rather than Visual Studio, set up linux boxen as routers and firewalls in networking classes, etc. The school board is not ready for a full-scale Linux implementation for a number of reasons: 1. About 2-3 years ago, they dumped considerable amounts of money and went through much pain to switch from NT to Win2K. 2. Technical ineptitude. They brought in peope from Dell to help them set up that Win2K network, along with its rather complicated Active Directory structure, etc. Even if some of the board's current teachers have some Linux skills, they still probably can't set up a network similar to the existing one. If they could, there might be union issues (right now, rule-abiding teachers should call for a union network tech if they want a network cable plugged in, PC relocated from top of the desk to the floor, or if they want to install something like a scanner driver). 3. The belief that the current system is and works fine. After all, half of the computers are P2-400 or early P3s, with 128 MB of memory, all taken as off-lease from Dell. When a system goes down, they just call in a tech to reimage it, no rescues are attempted. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 16:07:53 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:07:53 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <200512170149.25785.marc@lijour.net> <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512170807r3d7946fan4a6888d9e3c5fb81@mail.gmail.com> Almost forgot the 4th reason :-) 4. Apparent Laziness This is all over the place. Network techs don't want to have to know more. Teachers were barely able to teach themselves how to use FirstClass (at my old school, most still avoid it). The entire IT department doesn't want to support 2 OSes (OS X machines are in a ratio of 1:100 with PCs, so they don't count) . A 'why bother' attitude prevails because no one's pocket is directly hit and having one or two of twenty computers constantly not work doesn't seem like a very big deal. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 16:15:34 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:15:34 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051217095934.F3880-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> > You also over-estimate the motivation of many window admins. Although there are a few that are truly interested in computers the vast majority are content to 'reinstall' windows as their only skill because its an easy job. Those are the ones shouting the loudest against any change. Their only skill will become obselete, they don't want to learn anything new, and they have the ear of upper management as 'insiders' looking out for the company. This rings a bell. I still wonder why they won't reimage over the network, and it might just be that getting a tech to drive to a school, put the cd in and press a button silences a few people (unions). Also, with Linux, there _would_ be a lot less work, because all the l33t_h4xx0r_dud3 high school kids would no longer be able to download and use system cracks from sites like Blackcode. After all, all you need for local Win2K admin rights is a boot disk, and then you can install anything you want, be it Quake3 or a network traffic sniffer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 16:54:14 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:54:14 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> This is rather off topic what I want to ask. Igor Denisov wrote: > Also, with Linux, there _would_ be a lot less work, because all the > l33t_h4xx0r_dud3 high school kids would no longer be able to download > and use system cracks from sites like Blackcode. After all, all you > need for local Win2K admin rights is a boot disk, and then you can > install anything you want, be it Quake3 or a network traffic sniffer. Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this could be prevented? But the real question I have is the following. Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal machines only, and run in that way any X applications? zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:16:52 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:16:52 -0400 (AST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A442B6.7040506-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > This is rather off topic what I want to ask. > > Igor Denisov wrote: > > > Also, with Linux, there _would_ be a lot less work, because all the > > l33t_h4xx0r_dud3 high school kids would no longer be able to download > > and use system cracks from sites like Blackcode. After all, all you > > need for local Win2K admin rights is a boot disk, and then you can > > install anything you want, be it Quake3 or a network traffic sniffer. > > Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs > just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even > with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this > could be prevented? As easy to do in Linux as it is in Windows. To prevent, add BIOS password and disable boot from the CDROM. > But the real question I have is the following. > > Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for > entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal > machines only, and run in that way any X applications? It really depends. If the school already has h/w, then there is a big cost of getting a new powerful machine. If they need new machines anyway, I think the terminal setup ends up cheaper overall (so I heard, I didn't do the math). Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:15:42 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:15:42 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Peter wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, William Park wrote: > > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. > > > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > > makers and IT staffs. > > Why would Linux be a job killer ?! It's a job killer in the sense that, > if adopted, the IT department will no longer have the grueling > janitorial job of carting and marshalling megabytes of spam, pron and > malware to the bit bucket, and they will advance beyond the all-time > intellectual low point of 'reinstalling' more often than anything else, > to doing real, useful work, shaping and configuring their systems, and > seeing them do what they tell them to. This is indeed one of the "vital economic fallacies" that people are prone to fall into. There are two particularly meaningful perspectives: 1. If Linux *were* a "job killer" in the IT department at the schools, this ought to be No Bad Thing, as having an IT department is peripheral to Providing Educational Services. Getting rid of IT jobs in the schools is something that ought to be *well* regarded by the two most powerful bodies around, namely teachers unions, who want there to be as many TEACHERS as possible, and politicians, to whom this gives the opportunity to emit platitudes about having more money to put more teachers into classrooms. 2. IT itself was imagined to be something that would lead to massive losses of jobs. (Look at John Brunner's novels for some of the more paranoid examples of this in Science Fiction.) In theory, computers should have meant that banks would only need a very tiny central staff. Reality is that those big bank towers are teeming with masses of people. People analyzing reports that analyze variances on reports that analyze variances on other reports. The "job killer" claim is largely a fallacy because economic side-effects are incredibly effectual, and Linux deployment in a "saving manner" would have *enormous* side-effects. To the extent that it *isn't*, Microsoft, if they competently built the proposed "zero configuration" systems they were advertising a couple of years ago, would be out killing even more jobs than they could possibly advocate Linux would be responsible for. Remember the advertising campaign where Microsoft had "sysadmins" cheering on some new deployment that was supposedly to save their companies millions of dollars? REALITY is that the only way that happens without destroying Microsoft's licensing cash flow is if the root of the savings was that the companies could lay off most of the sysadmins. Not much joy in Mudville that day... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:24:18 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:24:18 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A442B6.7040506-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > This is rather off topic what I want to ask. > > Igor Denisov wrote: > > Also, with Linux, there _would_ be a lot less work, because all the > > l33t_h4xx0r_dud3 high school kids would no longer be able to download > > and use system cracks from sites like Blackcode. After all, all you > > need for local Win2K admin rights is a boot disk, and then you can > > install anything you want, be it Quake3 or a network traffic sniffer. > > Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs > just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even > with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this > could be prevented? Good question. If some form of strong authentication is in use, that could make it difficult to replace the installation with something else. "Difficult" and "impossible" are obviously two different words. > But the real question I have is the following. > > Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for > entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal > machines only, and run in that way any X applications? That has the downside of requiring 100% uptime of the network and chews quite a bit of bandwidth. Further, it means you need a rack of those "really powerful" machines in the back room. At least some portion of the savings made on the "cheap terminals" will have to be consumed in beefing up the server and the network. It is also not clear how well that approach scales. What works OK with ten terminals may not be so OK with 100, or 1000. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:33:16 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:33:16 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >>Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs >>just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even >>with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this >>could be prevented? > > > As easy to do in Linux as it is in Windows. To prevent, add BIOS password > and disable boot from the CDROM. How simple and obvious... :) >>But the real question I have is the following. >> >>Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for >>entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal >>machines only, and run in that way any X applications? > > > It really depends. If the school already has h/w, then there is a big cost > of getting a new powerful machine. If they need new machines anyway, I > think the terminal setup ends up cheaper overall (so I heard, I didn't do > the math). It would indeed be good to have some deeper studies on that, not to speculate. If that is so, I would believe that this is a good argument for using Linux. Why? The lifetime of computers used is rather short and probably does not extend in average to more than let say 3 years. Hence, it might be a good idea to instead of changing all computers to use the oldered as terminals and invest available money into buying a new central one. zb. > Cheers, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:42:10 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:42:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > On 12/17/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> There is also the issue that teachers are often totally occupied by >> teaching. They don't have time to deal with *any* glitches or >> idiosyncracies in the operating system. So for it to be accepted, it has >> to be a completely turnkey, foolproof operation. > > That _feels_ contradictory... Windows is anything but "foolproof" > unless it is being managed in some pretty spectacularly draconian > manner. It's so easy for it to be totally destabilized as soon as you > have the ability to (say) access the Internet by virtue of the > all-too-common virus-deployment mechanisms like IE/OE... Yeah, I agree. I heard of one educational environment which operated Linux and made Windows available in a separate partition. The system was scheduled to wipe that partition clean at midnight and re-install Windows. So students were advised not to try to store anything in that partition. I guess that's what you describe as 'draconian management'... And that particular strategy must have taken a few years off the life of the hard drive. Linux has nice tools to make it a very simple environment to use. But it's *really* important to test these user interfaces. One of the profs at Ryerson recruited me for a useability test, and one minute into the test I had unintentionally navigated the thing into a black hole. P. -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 17:47:22 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:47:22 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A44F2A.8010101@istop.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 12/17/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >>Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs >>just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even >>with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this >>could be prevented? > > > Good question. If some form of strong authentication is in use, that > could make it difficult to replace the installation with something > else. "Difficult" and "impossible" are obviously two different words. It seems that TAA answered that in the best possible way? Using terminal access would greately incresed security. And created at the same time other security problems on the main machine ;) >>Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for >>entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal >>machines only, and run in that way any X applications? > It is also not clear how well that approach scales. What works OK > with ten terminals may not be so OK with 100, or 1000. Sure. I have at home a copy of entire Strategies Canada web site (a gov. directory of businesses in Canada, these that were willing to register there). It contains around 70,000 records with detailed information about Canadian companies (btw, could sell copies for low cost to any one interested in - this is legal). Of these 70,000 at least 2/3 are companies with less than 10 people. And how many businesses, especially smaller ones, are not registered there? Actually most of people employed in Canada (or any other country) are working for such small companies. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 18:12:15 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:12:15 +0000 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A44BDC.8060204-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A454FF.3040906@zen.co.uk> If you are installing software over the network this kind of eliminates the need for a cdrom altogether, given that you can produce a image either locally or on the server. add this to removing the floppy driive given they are no longer really requied, yes change the BIOS password to prevent boot not from the above but from usb drives, which can hold entire operating systems. However if you just have monitors on the desks and hide the main PC boxes behind panels, then you could eliminate a lot of attempts to hack the system or run things. Clearly the USB pen drives have their good uses, so this could be problematic, however just solve this by allowing VPN access to the system for the students, so they can save homework to the school network. I think I read somewhere that the best way to prevent people hacking (or cracking a system) is to prevent physical access, once I have that I can do quite a lot. Paul , >> >> >> As easy to do in Linux as it is in Windows. To prevent, add BIOS >> password >> and disable boot from the CDROM. > > > How simple and obvious... :) > >>> But the real question I have is the following. >>> >>> Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for >>> entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal >>> machines only, and run in that way any X applications? >> >> >> >> It really depends. If the school already has h/w, then there is a big >> cost >> of getting a new powerful machine. If they need new machines anyway, I >> think the terminal setup ends up cheaper overall (so I heard, I >> didn't do >> the math). > > > It would indeed be good to have some deeper studies on that, not to > speculate. > > If that is so, I would believe that this is a good argument for using > Linux. Why? The lifetime of computers used is rather short and > probably does not extend in average to more than let say 3 years. > Hence, it might be a good idea to instead of changing all computers to > use the oldered as terminals and invest available money into buying a > new central one. > > zb. > >> Cheers, > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 18:14:26 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:14:26 -0400 (AST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A44BDC.8060204-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> Message-ID: > >>But the real question I have is the following. > >> > >>Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for > >>entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal > >>machines only, and run in that way any X applications? > > > > > > It really depends. If the school already has h/w, then there is a big cost > > of getting a new powerful machine. If they need new machines anyway, I > > think the terminal setup ends up cheaper overall (so I heard, I didn't do > > the math). > > It would indeed be good to have some deeper studies on that, not to > speculate. > > If that is so, I would believe that this is a good argument for using > Linux. Why? The lifetime of computers used is rather short and probably > does not extend in average to more than let say 3 years. Hence, it might > be a good idea to instead of changing all computers to use the oldered > as terminals and invest available money into buying a new central one. I almost got involved in a project to do just that in NS: reuse old obsolete hardware as terminal and use the money to buy a server. Unfortunately, the guy who was negotiating the project with the government suddenly disappeared and the project died. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 18:43:39 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:43:39 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A45C5B.5060903@istop.com> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >>If that is so, I would believe that this is a good argument for using >>Linux. Why? The lifetime of computers used is rather short and probably >>does not extend in average to more than let say 3 years. Hence, it might >>be a good idea to instead of changing all computers to use the oldered >>as terminals and invest available money into buying a new central one. > > > I almost got involved in a project to do just that in NS: reuse old > obsolete hardware as terminal and use the money to buy a server. > Unfortunately, the guy who was negotiating the project with the government > suddenly disappeared and the project died. That and all my talking today would confirm that there is potentially a really huge niche market around for a new approach to using computers at smaller companies. I know, inertia, laziness to learn, ignorance, and a lack of imagination of people are the largest barrier. But we are talking about billions of dollars. And the place for Linux. zb. > > TAA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 19:52:11 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:52:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Linux has nice tools to make it a very simple environment to use. But it's > *really* important to test these user interfaces. One of the profs at > Ryerson recruited me for a useability test, and one minute into the test I > had unintentionally navigated the thing into a black hole. Was that a beta test on something new or usability test on a downloaded application ? thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 19:54:32 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:54:32 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: Windows and linux have many similarities in a large campus roll out. However, linux is designed to be easier to manage remotely. At the university I went to, we had linux and solaris workstations as the school approved computers. They used a kickstart system and re-imaged every machine at least once a week. If you dig around, there is some neat stuff here: http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/ It was all spawned by the Athena project at MIT: http://web.mit.edu/ist/topics/athena/ Overall the MS windows labs never worked right, and the unix labs did. The automated re-deployment was the real reason unix worked. A given Linux system could be destroyed accidentally in about 1 day of use. While I do like linux better, my whole point is that it's not wildly better than anything else out there. -Joseph- On 12/17/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > On 12/17/05, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> There is also the issue that teachers are often totally occupied by > >> teaching. They don't have time to deal with *any* glitches or > >> idiosyncracies in the operating system. So for it to be accepted, it has > >> to be a completely turnkey, foolproof operation. > > > > That _feels_ contradictory... Windows is anything but "foolproof" > > unless it is being managed in some pretty spectacularly draconian > > manner. It's so easy for it to be totally destabilized as soon as you > > have the ability to (say) access the Internet by virtue of the > > all-too-common virus-deployment mechanisms like IE/OE... > > Yeah, I agree. I heard of one educational environment which operated Linux > and made Windows available in a separate partition. The system was > scheduled to wipe that partition clean at midnight and re-install Windows. > So students were advised not to try to store anything in that partition. I > guess that's what you describe as 'draconian management'... > > And that particular strategy must have taken a few years off the life of > the hard drive. > > Linux has nice tools to make it a very simple environment to use. But it's > *really* important to test these user interfaces. One of the profs at > Ryerson recruited me for a useability test, and one minute into the test I > had unintentionally navigated the thing into a black hole. > > P. > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Professor Emeritus, > Electrical and Computer Engineering, > Ryerson University > 416-465-3007 > www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 19:58:35 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:58:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: apt-get problem Message-ID: I have a problem with one computer running knoppix(4.0)/dedian. While preparing to install a driver for a HP printer as per HP's instructions(?) on hpinkjet.sourceforge.net, an apt-get install ___ failed but went on to remove a *lot* of files including all/most of KDE. Now I am unable to install / remove *any* packages using either apt-get or aptitude. Both seem to get hung trying to remove "kdebluetooth" : ------------------------ root ~ # aptitude (Reading database ... 81870 files and directories currently installed.) Removing kdebluetooth ... dpkg-divert: mismatch on divert-to when removing `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt by kdebluetooth' found `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock.orig by kdelock-knoppix' dpkg: error processing kdebluetooth (--remove): subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2 Errors were encountered while processing: kdebluetooth E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) Ack! Something bad happened while installing packages. Trying to recover: Press return to continue. ------------------------ ...I've tried a few things to work around this - like keep/hold kdebluetooth, running dselect and renaming "/var/cache/apt/archives/libbluetooth1_2.19-1_i386.deb" but nothing has worked. ...it looks like kdebluetooth does not actually exist except in some apt-get table or cache. What can I try now? BTW, when KDE was removed, icewm remained and, actually, it looks pretty good! I'll probably use this instead of an environment like KDE on that particular machine but I do need a screensaver which I can't apt-get right now. TIA, -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 20:31:10 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:31:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Useability tests In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> <43A36647.E352D2C@rogers.com> <96aa4e8f0512162009w6574e69fpe951bdd380acb1e7@mail.gmail.com> <50678.207.188.65.194.1134795760.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <50910.207.188.65.194.1134841330.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <50087.207.188.65.194.1134851470.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> >> Linux has nice tools to make it a very simple environment to use. But >> it's >> *really* important to test these user interfaces. One of the profs at >> Ryerson recruited me for a useability test, and one minute into the test >> I >> had unintentionally navigated the thing into a black hole. > > Was that a beta test on something new or usability test on a downloaded > application ? > It was something new, some teaching software that had been tailored to support a particular engineering course. In another case, several Ontario universities joined together to create - or purchase - RACER, a program to manage inter-library loans. The initial user interface was *horrible*. In response to my complaint, the folks my university library offered to spend a morning teaching me how to use it. It's a sure sign of a lousy human-computer interface that someone has to show you how to use it. Anyway, I moved the complaint up the heirarchy and to her credit the library director admitted that the program had problems, and eventually they fixed them. As I pointed out to the library at the time, it's a very simple exercise to put a naive user in front of your software, ask them to operate it, and watch what happens. (Recording the user's stream-of-conciousness thoughts also helps.) . It exposes all sorts of screwups. P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 20:54:06 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:54:06 -0500 Subject: OT: gaming PC for sale Message-ID: This is slightly on-topic because every piece of hardware in this computer has been selected with Linux-compatability in mind. Athlon XP 2800+ 512 MB dual-channel DDR RAM 60 GB hard drive Nforce2-based motherboard with AGP 8x, USB 2, Firewire 400, built-in 5.1 channel sound card GeForce 5900 XT, overclocked, 128MB DDR SoundBlaster Live! Value 52x CD-RW 10/100 Ethernet and 802.11g WiFi Aerocool Jetmaster Jr case with handle (great for LAN parties) http://www.modthebox.com/review340_1.shtml (case pics and review) The WiFi card has open-source FreeBSD drivers, but on GNU/Linux you'll have to settle for ndiswrapper (which has worked fine for me for months). Everything else has worked fine out of the box on Ubuntu and Fedora Core. However, if you're willing to use proprietary NVIDIA drivers you'll get much better 3D performance. Asking $400, includes copy of UT2004 (Linux/Windows). May be able to snag a copy of Doom 3 (also Linux/Windows). The plan is to move to a Mac mini (I just don't have time for games!), so I'd love to hear from someone who's looking to sell, or even talk about a trade. Happy holidays! Mike Newman -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 20:54:16 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Peter Armstrong wrote: | Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:42:29 -0500 | From: Peter Armstrong | Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive | registration? | | > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: | > | > > On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb | > wrote: | > > > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong | > > wrote: | > > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar | > > for .ca dn's? | > > > | > > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - | > > http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names | > > > | > > | > | Actually, if you try to purchase a .ca from | Netfirms, | the final price is $18.09, not $9.95 as advertised!! | | Double what they advertise(!). | | They add on $6.95 for "Shipping & Handling Surface | Mail (CAN)"(?!), and of course gst of $1.19, for a | total $18.09 This is ourtrageos. So I thought I'd check. I just asked their live chat support about this. They seem to think the S&H is for some CD that sounds useless. Did you get a CD? BTW, the prices are in Canadian dollars. Chat Information Welcome to the Netfirms Live Sales Chat! A Sales Representative will assist you shortly. Chat Information You are now chatting with 'Ryan' Ryan: Hello, thank you for contacting us. How may I help you today? Hugh: Your web page says that a domain is $9.95 / year. I've heard that you actually charge a large "shipping and handling" fee on top of that, but I do not see that mentioned on your page. Can you point me to this policy? Ryan: The domain name is $9.95= $10.65 with taxes. We do not charge a shipping and handling fee unless you order the Net Objects Starter CD which is NOT mandatory. Hugh: OK. All I want is to renew my domain. I don't need a DNS host and I don't need a web host. So it would be $10.65 / year? That's good. Ryan: I will be right with you. Ryan: Yes but did your domain already expire? Hugh: no. A month or two away. Ryan: You can transfer your domain using the registrar transfer option for the aforementioned price Ryan: https://secure.netfirms.ca/signup/ca-en/signup-fs_domainlookup?hostingproduct=hostingbasic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 21:09:14 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:09:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1134586167.9472.6.camel-bi+AKbBUZKY6gyzm1THtWbp2dZbC/Bob@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: | From: Vince Fry [Please don't top-post. It makes understanding a thread tedious and sometimes difficult.] | > --- Vince Fry wrote: | > > I just got one of these for free from my Dell rep. | > > Does anyone have any | > > idea if this works with Linux? | | D'OH!! | | If I had only gone to my desktop, I would have seen the mounted | volume!! Wikipedia seems to be useful on this topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Digital_Jukebox This entry points out that the latest DJ Ditty software is certified to be "Microsoft PlaysForSure" compliant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure Until I read this, I thought PlaysForSure was software from Microsoft, but it appears to be a specification, a branding, and a license. This is scary. Look at the "Criticisms" section. For example, the wording of the licensing agreement prevents Ogg Vorbis from being supported. Some think that it forbids USB mass storage functionality. Certainly, the iRiver players, when updated with PlaysForSure firmware, are no longer interesting to me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 21:33:56 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:33:56 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A45C5B.5060903-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> <43A45C5B.5060903@istop.com> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512171333l1e196825g836b5c370a9b4eac@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it is possible to overhaul the entire school board to use thin clients. And, once you replace the aging 10 Mbit switches and hubs throughout the schools, you could probably even have all of TDSB's clients powered by a few fast servers. The problem is the lack of native versions of the software schools want to use (substitutions / equivalent software will not go over well with the teachers, especially when you've bought textbooks teaching how to use MS Word, not O.O.org). The school board couldn't care less what OS everything runs on, just as long as Millie's Math House, Geometer's Sketchpad and Vernier Labs probeware work. Get the software to run, show the performance/price/TCO advantage, get the teachers into summer time workshops to learn the new system, and Linux will be used. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 22:00:34 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:00:34 +0000 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools and training In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512171333l1e196825g836b5c370a9b4eac-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> <43A44BDC.8060204@istop.com> <43A45C5B.5060903@istop.com> <96aa4e8f0512171333l1e196825g836b5c370a9b4eac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A48A82.3000507@zen.co.uk> I think thats the problem we have in England, I am hoping to get a job that will put me in a positon to try things out, and perhaps push open source (not Linux on the desktop in the first instance) and find out what schools need in the UK, When I come over to Toronto Next year, it will be a chance to discuss things at meetings and we can swap ideas. http://www.osv.org.au/ catalogue quite big but has lots of nice software in there that could be useful to schools, and most of it runs on either Linux or windows, I guess the only real way to use some of the normal teaching software is to use wine, which is still in development, and can be slow even on a duron 1600, One thing that is interesting is the site http://www.traininghott.com/ which is one a local training center, while it offers LPI etc, I think what is needed is something that covers the basics, e.g KDE etc, from a normal user perspective, also something that ideally costs <$100, or even better <$50, Regarding course costs this is where we need to be careful regarding TCO issues. Training costs are in there with this. Paul Igor Denisov wrote: >Yes, it is possible to overhaul the entire school board to use thin clients. >And, once you replace the aging 10 Mbit switches and hubs throughout >the schools, you could probably even have all of TDSB's clients >powered by a few fast servers. > >The problem is the lack of native versions of the software schools >want to use (substitutions / equivalent software will not go over well >with the teachers, especially when you've bought textbooks teaching >how to use MS Word, not O.O.org). >The school board couldn't care less what OS everything runs on, just >as long as Millie's Math House, Geometer's Sketchpad and Vernier Labs >probeware work. > >Get the software to run, show the performance/price/TCO advantage, get >the teachers into summer time workshops to learn the new system, and >Linux will be used. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 22:35:21 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:35:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: Interesting thread. I'll respond to several messages here. I'm cynical about this. But progress is possible and only optimists can cause it to happen. Bravo if you are an optimist. | From: "Marc Lijour" | To my knowledge the North | York board of education is better at listening and providing equipment. There is no longer a North York Board of Education. It was amalgamated with other boards to create the Toronto District School Board. | From: "Marc Lijour" | Ballmer was in Ottawa last week, the government is giving $4.5 million | dollars to the schools over the next years... | My board is about to switch from win98 to winXP and to equip all stations | with MS Office (currently Corel and StarOffice). Microsoft has had very serious discounts for educational purposes in schools (not for administration in schools, I think). Maybe this isn't costing us taxpayers as much as we fear. The hardware cost is worth considering. But Linux (and StarOffice/OpenOffice especially) require quite a bit of hardware unless you make some hard choices. In my experience, school procurements are nuts. Usually a case of feast or famine. They overbuy and then assume the stuff will last, say, 10 years. They buy unneeded stuff, stuff that sits unused. Or they don't buy stuff that is desperately needed. Often what they are short of is expertise (but isn't everyone other than TLUG members?). | From: Evan Leibovitch | At a UN conference I attended earlier this year in Geneva, the biggest | detractors of FOSS amazingly came from some of the poorest countries, | whose representatives might as well have been reading a prepared script | singing the praises of proprietary vendors. The most vocal, I recall, | was Zimbabwe. Being on the other side of an argument with Zimbabwe's government-for-life is no dishonour. | From: Christopher Browne | 1. If Linux *were* a "job killer" in the IT department at the schools, this | ought to be No Bad Thing, as having an IT department is peripheral | to Providing Educational Services. Exactly. The only important way of saving resources is to cut jobs. Either in the organization, or (recursively) in the suppliers. Okay, I admit that you can save money by paying people less. But then they will spend less, supporting fewer jobs somewhere else. | From: Christopher Browne | On 12/17/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: | > Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for | > entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal | > machines only, and run in that way any X applications? | | That has the downside of requiring 100% uptime of the network and | chews quite a bit of bandwidth. Further, it means you need a rack of | those "really powerful" machines in the back room. Schools are often guilty of underprovisioning. I remember tales of schools with Icons (the "Bionic Beaver", the Ontario-designed and -built school computer from the mid-eighties). They used a file server and, due to underprovisioning, might take up to half an hour to boot a classroom of systems. Most kids came away hating the Icon. In theory, it was great. I knew people from most of the software providers, and they were righteous. I blame underprovisioning. Along with a lack of sexiness (no hardcore games, no TV ads, no glossy fan magazines). Perhaps one of the Icon's problem was the top-down nature of its design and deployment. This added, say, a year or two delay that made the hardware seem pokey. Another problem: nobody was quite sure what computers were for in the classroom. Teaching programming? Word processing? Spreadsheets? Presentations? Courseware? Have they figured this out now? Anyway, back to the original point: the experience with thin clients in schools is likely to be awful if the powers-that-be cannot be prevented from underprovisioning. Another problem: a thin client system may prevent individual student creativity with computers. Creativity may not be distinguishable from Bad Behaviour. Do you remember what it was like being a high school student? Control by the system may actually work against education. | At least some portion of the savings made on the "cheap terminals" | will have to be consumed in beefing up the server and the network. Yes. But, at least from a systems perspective, there are lots of benefits: centralizing control. | From: Yanni Chiu | Igor Denisov wrote: | > | > > BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has | > > some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up | > > his/her name if anyone is interested. | | Here's a link and a quote. | http://squeakland.org/pipermail/squeakland/2004-January/001936.html | ==== | | [Squeakland] Squeaker News.... Squeak in Spain! | | Mankovsky, Sheine sheine.mankovsky2 at tdsb.on.ca Her bio page mentions Squeak. http://www.tdsb.on.ca/boardroom/trustees/trustee.asp?w=5&p=103 Interesting. I've talked with her (and her daughter) a number of years ago. She was the trustee for my son's high school (to give you an idea of the time frame: my son is now in graduate school). I'm no longer involved with the school system. My impression is that since amalgamation the trustees are mostly figureheads. The McGuinty government has been kinder and gentler, but I doubt that the trustees have regained much ground: - Harris made the trustee role part time (in Metro Toronto board the trustee job had been essentially full-time) - Much more was mandated by Queen's Park - amalgamation and downsizing broke the existing relationships. - the number of students and schools per trustee was increased by an order of magnitude. Much harder for a trustee to know what was going on in their schools. - downsizing eliminated half of the supperintendants. This appeared to break the channels between the trustees and the classroom -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 23:38:07 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:38:07 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512170149.25785.marc@lijour.net> <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512171838.08500.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 17 December 2005 10:57, Igor Denisov wrote: > > > Many of these programs, like Geometer's Sketchpad, VB 6.0, etc. are > > > tightly integrated into the curriculum. > > > Some textbooks assume Sketchpad will be used and have tutorials for it. > > > > Is it really the curriculum or an option taken by book authors? > > Hmm... both? > > A quick google search (Geometer's Sketchpad tdsb) reveals this (and more): > > =========== > From: http://schools.tdsb.on.ca/SAME/samefiles/Sec.sessions.htm > > With the Ministry-licensed Geometer's Sketchpad Version 4, students > can explore and learn concepts in the new "Advanced Functions and > Introductory Calculus" dynamically. Through step-by-step instructions, > students will construct, investigate, and develop meaning to concepts. > Participants will receive a healthy package of classroom-ready > worksheets that can be put to use immediately in the MCB 4U course. > =========== It seems that your are talking about the TDSB and not the Ministry of Education, which are two different things. Try to find a reference to a program in the (official) curriculum: http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/curricul/curricul.html Of course, each teacher, and each board are free to adapt the curriculum to their equipment. One interesting thing in the curriculum is that it actually tells about exposing students to different environments, including OSs. On a side note, we tend to forget that there is more than a handful of boards playing in Toronto, not only the TDSB ;-) > > And this brings up another important detail: a lot of the software the > board uses is licensed by the Ministry of Education and made free > (IIRC) for any Ontario school to use. > > Perhaps getting the Ministry of Ed. to "license" some OSS Linux > software would lead to a trickle-down effect, where convincing the > TDSB to support Linux would become easier (and making this so called > OSS software free to the board :-) Interesting. There is a web site for that actually. Try this: http://www.ccpalo.org/ Last year I proposed both OOo and StarOffice. But only StarOffice is offered. But let me ask this question: why would the Ministry of Education offer some software which is already available for free?? (I have a similar response from the tech guys when I ask if it would be possible for the board to contribute some money and equipment. They tell me: "ask your school, they have money!". Bottom line, if we can get it and we have the right to install it, what's the problem? At least in our school we have it -thanks to me, because I keep asking.) Eh, may be we should target the teachers directly instead of targeting the boards? > My personal opinion at this time is that Linux will work best in TDSB's CS > labs. There, the few knowledgeable, 'renegade' teachers will teach C with > Vim/Emacs/Kdevelop and GCC rather than Visual Studio, set up linux boxen as > routers and firewalls in networking classes, etc. I am taking a CS certification at UofT OISE right now. I can tell you C is not in the trend today. People (students and teachers alike) want graphics, games and flashy things. One teacher is offering PHP, which is a great idea you will agree. I fear the other people are stuck with windows. And the expectation is to have a graphical environment running. > The school board is not ready for a full-scale Linux implementation > for a number of reasons: > > 1. About 2-3 years ago, they dumped considerable amounts of money and > went through much pain to switch from NT to Win2K. Other school boards are in the same situation. I don't know if you are talking about WS or servers? In our case, the WS are still running win98 and the server NT. (Tech guys have to do miracles to boot win98 with some boards and a mix of SATA drives with regular ATA drives, add to this broken BIOSes!). Somebody told me the board invests money given by the Ministry of Education. It looks like they received a lump sum to buy equipment and then they forgot about opening a chapter in the accounting sheets to maintain it... (My board is also supporting opening of plenty of new schools, money can't be everywhere!) > 2. Technical ineptitude. They brought in peope from Dell to help them > set up that Win2K network, along with its rather complicated Active > Directory structure, etc. > > Even if some of the board's current teachers have some Linux skills, > they still probably can't set up a network similar to the existing > one. As you explain below teachers have no word to say and no active role in setting up networks or anything else (union issues?). > If they could, there might be union issues (right now, rule-abiding > teachers should call for a union network tech if they want a network > cable plugged in, PC relocated from top of the desk to the floor, or > if they want to install something like a scanner driver). > > 3. The belief that the current system is and works fine. After all, > half of the computers are P2-400 or early P3s, with 128 MB of memory, > all taken as off-lease from Dell. When a system goes down, they just > call in a tech to reimage it, no rescues are attempted. Some kids feed the floppy disk with peanuts and the computer can't take it, the warranty neither! Bottom line some worsktation stay without a floppy drive in working conditions. Samewise for the CD. (I just remember now, that a growing number of students are asking for burning their work on CD. lol) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 23:43:17 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:43:17 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512170807r3d7946fan4a6888d9e3c5fb81-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265@mail.gmail.com> <96aa4e8f0512170807r3d7946fan4a6888d9e3c5fb81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512171843.17839.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 17 December 2005 11:07, Igor Denisov wrote: > Almost forgot the 4th reason :-) > > 4. Apparent Laziness > > This is all over the place. Network techs don't want to have to know > more. Teachers were barely able to teach themselves how to use > FirstClass (at my old school, most still avoid it). The entire IT > department doesn't want to support 2 OSes (OS X machines are in a > ratio of 1:100 with PCs, so they don't count) . In my board we don't use firstclass. At UofT we use it but it has a web front end, then no problem! (No linux client, shame!) One of my colleagues started the networking of my school and a bunch of other schools. He even got a working proposition to teach at the university! He used all macs. When the board started to take control, they said no macs, they installed pcs+win everywhere and they said "now you can't touch anything", then they locked him out. He had to teach months with non-working computers (win instead of macs!), and complaining. Finally, he went to tell the board that he won't teach anymore cs classes. This is how boards lose good employees. (Who is staying? :-) ) > A 'why bother' attitude prevails because no one's pocket is directly > hit and having one or two of twenty computers constantly not work > doesn't seem like a very big deal. Shame. When we think that we train these kids to work in a corporate environment!! > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 23:45:28 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:45:28 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512171845.29019.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 17 December 2005 09:38, Peter wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, William Park wrote: > > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. > > > > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > > makers and IT staffs. > > Why would Linux be a job killer ?! It's a job killer in the sense that, > if adopted, the IT department will no longer have the grueling > janitorial job of carting and marshalling megabytes of spam, pron and > malware to the bit bucket, and they will advance beyond the all-time > intellectual low point of 'reinstalling' more often than anything else, > to doing real, useful work, shaping and configuring their systems, and > seeing them do what they tell them to. No job killer at all. Boards seems to be missing personal! This could be a salvation rather than a doom ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 23:56:59 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:56:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers Wireless Message-ID: <43A4A5CB.7060601@pppoe.ca> How a terror group cloned Ted Rogers' cellphone ?They were using actually a pretty brilliant psychology. Nobody wants to cut off Ted Rogers' phone or any people that are directly under Ted Rogers, so they took their scanners to our building, like our north building, where our senior top, top, top executives are. They took their scanners there and also to Yorkville, where there are a lot of high rollers and like it would be a major PR blunder to shoot first and ask questions later. . . . Nobody wants to shut off Ted. Even if he is calling Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Kuwait.? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051217.wxcellphone1217/BNStory/Technology/ How many on the list use Rogers Wireless? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 00:04:35 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:04:35 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512171904.35953.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 17 December 2005 17:35, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Interesting thread. I'll respond to several messages here. > > I'm cynical about this. But progress is possible and only optimists > can cause it to happen. Bravo if you are an optimist. > > | From: "Marc Lijour" > | > | To my knowledge the North > | York board of education is better at listening and providing equipment. > > There is no longer a North York Board of Education. It was > amalgamated with other boards to create the Toronto District School > Board. Sorry for the confusion. I meant York Region District School Board http://www.yrdsb.edu.on.ca/ Peel and Dufferin-Peel have also good word-of-mouth. > | From: "Marc Lijour" > | > | Ballmer was in Ottawa last week, the government is giving $4.5 million > | dollars to the schools over the next years... > | My board is about to switch from win98 to winXP and to equip all stations > | with MS Office (currently Corel and StarOffice). > > Microsoft has had very serious discounts for educational purposes in > schools (not for administration in schools, I think). Maybe this > isn't costing us taxpayers as much as we fear. > > The hardware cost is worth considering. But Linux (and > StarOffice/OpenOffice especially) require quite a bit of hardware > unless you make some hard choices. > > In my experience, school procurements are nuts. Usually a case of > feast or famine. They overbuy and then assume the stuff will last, > say, 10 years. They buy unneeded stuff, stuff that sits unused. Or > they don't buy stuff that is desperately needed. Often what they are > short of is expertise (but isn't everyone other than TLUG members?). > > | From: Evan Leibovitch > | > | At a UN conference I attended earlier this year in Geneva, the biggest > | detractors of FOSS amazingly came from some of the poorest countries, > | whose representatives might as well have been reading a prepared script > | singing the praises of proprietary vendors. The most vocal, I recall, > | was Zimbabwe. > > Being on the other side of an argument with Zimbabwe's > government-for-life is no dishonour. > > | From: Christopher Browne > | > | 1. If Linux *were* a "job killer" in the IT department at the schools, > | this ought to be No Bad Thing, as having an IT department is peripheral > | to Providing Educational Services. > > Exactly. The only important way of saving resources is to cut jobs. > Either in the organization, or (recursively) in the suppliers. > > Okay, I admit that you can save money by paying people less. But then > they will spend less, supporting fewer jobs somewhere else. > > | From: Christopher Browne > | > | On 12/17/05, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > | > Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for > | > entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal > | > machines only, and run in that way any X applications? > | > | That has the downside of requiring 100% uptime of the network and > | chews quite a bit of bandwidth. Further, it means you need a rack of > | those "really powerful" machines in the back room. > > Schools are often guilty of underprovisioning. I remember tales of > schools with Icons (the "Bionic Beaver", the Ontario-designed and > -built school computer from the mid-eighties). They used a file > server and, due to underprovisioning, might take up to half an hour to > boot a classroom of systems. > > Most kids came away hating the Icon. In theory, it was great. I knew > people from most of the software providers, and they were righteous. > I blame underprovisioning. Along with a lack of sexiness (no hardcore > games, no TV ads, no glossy fan magazines). > > Perhaps one of the Icon's problem was the top-down nature of its > design and deployment. This added, say, a year or two delay that made > the hardware seem pokey. > > Another problem: nobody was quite sure what computers were for in the > classroom. Teaching programming? Word processing? Spreadsheets? > Presentations? Courseware? Have they figured this out now? > > Anyway, back to the original point: the experience with thin clients in > schools is likely to be awful if the powers-that-be cannot be > prevented from underprovisioning. > > Another problem: a thin client system may prevent individual student > creativity with computers. Creativity may not be distinguishable from > Bad Behaviour. Do you remember what it was like being a high school > student? Control by the system may actually work against education. > > | At least some portion of the savings made on the "cheap terminals" > | will have to be consumed in beefing up the server and the network. > > Yes. But, at least from a systems perspective, there are lots of > benefits: centralizing control. > > | From: Yanni Chiu > | > | Igor Denisov wrote: > | > > BTW, there is a Toronto School Board trustee that has > | > > some interest in the Squeak/Etoys work. I can dig up > | > > his/her name if anyone is interested. > | > | Here's a link and a quote. > | http://squeakland.org/pipermail/squeakland/2004-January/001936.html > | ==== > | > | [Squeakland] Squeaker News.... Squeak in Spain! > | > | Mankovsky, Sheine sheine.mankovsky2 at tdsb.on.ca > > Her bio page mentions Squeak. > http://www.tdsb.on.ca/boardroom/trustees/trustee.asp?w=5&p=103 > > Interesting. I've talked with her (and her daughter) a number of > years ago. She was the trustee for my son's high school (to give you > an idea of the time frame: my son is now in graduate school). > > I'm no longer involved with the school system. My impression is that > since amalgamation the trustees are mostly figureheads. The McGuinty > government has been kinder and gentler, but I doubt that the trustees > have regained much ground: > > - Harris made the trustee role part time (in Metro Toronto board the > trustee job had been essentially full-time) > > - Much more was mandated by Queen's Park > > - amalgamation and downsizing broke the existing relationships. > > - the number of students and schools per trustee was increased by an > order of magnitude. Much harder for a trustee to know what was > going on in their schools. > > - downsizing eliminated half of the supperintendants. This appeared > to break the channels between the trustees and the classroom > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 02:07:22 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 17 Dec 2005 21:07:22 -0500 Subject: apt-get problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Herb Richter writes: > I have a problem with one computer running knoppix(4.0)/dedian. > > While preparing to install a driver for a HP printer as per HP's > instructions(?) on hpinkjet.sourceforge.net, an apt-get install ___ > failed but went on to remove a *lot* of files including all/most of KDE. > > Now I am unable to install / remove *any* packages using either apt-get or > aptitude. Both seem to get hung trying to remove "kdebluetooth" : > > ------------------------ > > root ~ # aptitude > (Reading database ... 81870 files and directories currently installed.) > Removing kdebluetooth ... > dpkg-divert: mismatch on divert-to > when removing `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to > /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt by kdebluetooth' > found `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to > /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock.orig by kdelock-knoppix' > dpkg: error processing kdebluetooth (--remove): > subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2 > Errors were encountered while processing: > kdebluetooth > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > Ack! Something bad happened while installing packages. Trying to > recover: > Press return to continue. > > ------------------------ > > ...I've tried a few things to work around this - like keep/hold > kdebluetooth, running dselect and renaming > "/var/cache/apt/archives/libbluetooth1_2.19-1_i386.deb" but nothing has > worked. > > ...it looks like kdebluetooth does not actually exist except in some > apt-get table or cache. > > What can I try now? Try to forcibly remove kdebluetooth: # dpkg -r --force-all kdebluetooth If that succeeds, fix APT: # apt-get install -f This may or may not install/remove a lot of package to satisfy dependencies. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 03:25:06 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:25:06 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <200512171838.08500.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512170149.25785.marc@lijour.net> <96aa4e8f0512170757k252e86b5w6ec9c3a5f6807265@mail.gmail.com> <200512171838.08500.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512171925l129577d5ofb665e02d58831d1@mail.gmail.com> > C is not in the trend today. People (students and teachers alike) want graphics, > games and flashy things. One teacher is offering PHP, which is a great idea you > will agree. Maybe we should start with a "Change the CS Curriculum" manifesto :-) Or maybe the school boards should recognize other OSes and make classes for graphical design and the like all Mac-based (like they will likely be in colleges), make CS into real CS, with a base of C and C++ taught in a Linux environment (like U of T Engineering), and leave proprietary labware and the rest to Windows... Hmm, this is beginning to sound like the real world... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 04:02:44 2005 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:02:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: apt-get problem --fixed :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 Dec 2005, Tim Writer wrote: > Herb Richter writes: > > > I have a problem with one computer running knoppix(4.0)/dedian. > > > > While preparing to install a driver for a HP printer as per HP's > > instructions(?) on hpinkjet.sourceforge.net, an apt-get install ___ > > failed but went on to remove a *lot* of files including all/most of KDE. > > > > Now I am unable to install / remove *any* packages using either apt-get or > > aptitude. Both seem to get hung trying to remove "kdebluetooth" : > > > > ------------------------ > > > > root ~ # aptitude > > (Reading database ... 81870 files and directories currently installed.) > > Removing kdebluetooth ... > > dpkg-divert: mismatch on divert-to > > when removing `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to > > /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt by kdebluetooth' > > found `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to > > /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock.orig by kdelock-knoppix' > > dpkg: error processing kdebluetooth (--remove): > > subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2 > > Errors were encountered while processing: > > kdebluetooth > > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > > Ack! Something bad happened while installing packages. Trying to > > recover: > > Press return to continue. > > > > ------------------------ > > > > ...I've tried a few things to work around this - like keep/hold > > kdebluetooth, running dselect and renaming > > "/var/cache/apt/archives/libbluetooth1_2.19-1_i386.deb" but nothing has > > worked. > > > > ...it looks like kdebluetooth does not actually exist except in some > > apt-get table or cache. > > > > What can I try now? > > Try to forcibly remove kdebluetooth: > > # dpkg -r --force-all kdebluetooth > > If that succeeds, fix APT: > > # apt-get install -f > > This may or may not install/remove a lot of package to satisfy dependencies. Hi Tim, ...thanks for the reply; tried dpkg -r --force-all kdebluetooth but still got: root ~ # dpkg -r --force-all kdebluetooth (Reading database ... 81870 files and directories currently installed.) Removing kdebluetooth ... dpkg-divert: mismatch on divert-to when removing `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt by kdebluetooth' found `diversion of /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock to /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock.orig by kdelock-knoppix' dpkg: error processing kdebluetooth (--remove): subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2 Errors were encountered while processing: kdebluetooth ...this did lead me to take a look for some code involving "diversion" or "/usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt" etc., which did exist in a (remaining) file: /var/lib/dpkg/info/kdebluetooth.postrm #! /bin/sh # postrm script for kdebluetooth # [cut] case "$1" in purge|remove|upgrade|failed-upgrade|abort-install|abort-upgrade|disappear) # Remove diversion for kbluelock. # When changing this, don't forget to change preinst also. if [ remove = "$1" ]; then if [ -x /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt ]; then rm /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock fi ### dpkg-divert --package kdebluetooth --remove --rename \ ### --divert /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock_nobt /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock ### ...plus to remove... rm /usr/bin/kdesktop_lock ...when commented out as above, the dpkg -r --force-all kdebluetooth worked and I can now aptitude install screensaver :-) ...Thanks again, -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 08:51:48 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:51:48 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad@mail.gmail.com> On 12/17/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This entry points out that the latest DJ Ditty software is certified > to be "Microsoft PlaysForSure" compliant. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure > > Until I read this, I thought PlaysForSure was software from Microsoft, > but it appears to be a specification, a branding, and a license. > > This is scary. Look at the "Criticisms" section. For example, the > wording of the licensing agreement prevents Ogg Vorbis from being > supported. Some think that it forbids USB mass storage functionality. > > Certainly, the iRiver players, when updated with PlaysForSure > firmware, are no longer interesting to me. (drifting further off-topic..) This is awesome.. I can't wait until it becomes easier to buy a handgun than an mp3 player. Soon I'll need to be fingerprinted and ear-tagged! Whee! =) Well, thankfully mp3 playing technology is easy enough that homebrew players will continue to exist for a good while. I ran into (googles) .. the Pez MP3 player[1] which is essentially a homebrew player. With stuff like that around as inspiration, it's nice to think that I could buy fair hardware in the future. I don't expect to be downgrading to the latest and greatest protected formats anyday. MP3 was a poor choice, but back then ogg wasn't around and other formats were massive. It's too bad that ogg requires just a touch more firepower and has poorer mini-hardware support, or that's what I've been led to believe. [1] http://www.pezmp3.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 08:54:36 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:54:36 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512180054h1e8a1f27pb3d12be45d3b62a3@mail.gmail.com> On 12/18/05, Sy Ali wrote: > [1] http://www.pezmp3.com/ Oh, as a quick aside.. I didn't get this player because I don't like the audio jack being where it is. That'll absolutely lead to an early death of the player.. especially since my headphone plug is straight and not a 45. I killed an earlier player this way and won't repeat the mistake. Well.. I killed it by hip-smashing a subway turnstyle with it in my pocket.. but that's another story. It did linger on for a good while longer until the audio became inconsistant due to a damaged jack. Aah fun with toys.. this is much more interesting than sitting with a programmable calculator in my back pocket as in my youth. You'd think I'd learn.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 11:54:58 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 06:54:58 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A54E12.6090501@sympatico.ca> Sy Ali wrote: > > Well, thankfully mp3 playing technology is easy enough that homebrew > players will continue to exist for a good while. Plus there are homebrew firmwares. Rockbox for my iRiver H120 is far better than the original firmware, adding features, and removing major bugs. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 14:55:30 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:55:30 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? Message-ID: <845e3b310512180655t5b07b7d0nf97978d491c0c509@mail.gmail.com> Hugh - Thx for the update, I will go back and try again at netfirms. I didn't actually place the order, cause once I saw the s&h charge, I thought, this is no good. I couldn't see anywhere where I could eliminate the s&h charge, but I'll look again. I can also use the live chat as you did. Will let you know how I make out. -Peter --- "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) > From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" < hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any > recommendations for inexpensive > registration? > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Peter Armstrong wrote: | Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:42:29 -0500 | From: Peter Armstrong < pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > | Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive | registration? | | > --- Leigh Honeywell < nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > wrote: | > | > > On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb < psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > | > wrote: | > > > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong < pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > | > > wrote: | > > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar | > > for .ca dn's? | > > > | > > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - | > > http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names | > > > | > > | > | Actually, if you try to purchase a .ca from | Netfirms, | the final price is $18.09, not $9.95 as advertised!! | | Double what they advertise(!). | | They add on $6.95 for "Shipping & Handling Surface | Mail (CAN)"(?!), and of course gst of $1.19, for a | total $18.09 This is ourtrageos. So I thought I'd check. I just asked their live chat support about this. They seem to think the S&H is for some CD that sounds useless. Did you get a CD? BTW, the prices are in Canadian dollars. Chat Information Welcome to the Netfirms Live Sales Chat! A Sales Representative will assist you shortly. Chat Information You are now chatting with 'Ryan' Ryan: Hello, thank you for contacting us. How may I help you today? Hugh: Your web page says that a domain is $9.95 / year. I've heard that you actually charge a large "shipping and handling" fee on top of that, but I do not see that mentioned on your page. Can you point me to this policy? Ryan: The domain name is $9.95= $10.65 with taxes. We do not charge a shipping and handling fee unless you order the Net Objects Starter CD which is NOT mandatory. Hugh: OK. All I want is to renew my domain. I don't need a DNS host and I don't need a web host. So it would be $10.65 / year? That's good. Ryan: I will be right with you. Ryan: Yes but did your domain already expire? Hugh: no. A month or two away. Ryan: You can transfer your domain using the registrar transfer option for the aforementioned price Ryan: https://secure.netfirms.ca/signup/ca-en/signup-fs_domainlookup?hostingproduct=hostingbasic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 17:57:28 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:57:28 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512171925l129577d5ofb665e02d58831d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512171838.08500.marc@lijour.net> <96aa4e8f0512171925l129577d5ofb665e02d58831d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512181257.29092.marc@lijour.net> On Saturday 17 December 2005 22:25, Igor Denisov wrote: > > C is not in the trend today. People (students and teachers alike) want > > graphics, games and flashy things. One teacher is offering PHP, which is > > a great idea you will agree. > > Maybe we should start with a "Change the CS Curriculum" manifesto :-) > Or maybe the school boards should recognize other OSes and make > classes for graphical design and the like all Mac-based (like they > will likely be in colleges), make CS into real CS, with a base of C > and C++ taught in a Linux environment (like U of T Engineering), and > leave proprietary labware and the rest to Windows... > > Hmm, this is beginning to sound like the real world... Why not? Here a few links were advocacy can work: 1) http://wiki.acse.net/index.php/Main_Page Computer Studies Educators are working on a curricular reform: http://wiki.acse.net/index.php/Curriculum_Reform 2) http://www.ecoo.org/index.php 3) Ministry of education check www.curriculum.org and http://www.ccpalo.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 18:56:38 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 18 Dec 2005 13:56:38 -0500 Subject: Dell DJ Ditty In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051214174946.98992.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1134586167.9472.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1e55af990512180051hdb6b3cbi2c54876b5fc46aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sy Ali writes: > This is awesome.. I can't wait until it becomes easier to buy a > handgun than an mp3 player. Soon I'll need to be fingerprinted and > ear-tagged! Whee! =) [snip] > It's too bad that ogg requires just a touch more firepower and has > poorer mini-hardware support, or that's what I've been led to believe. On a semi-related note, I have a Samsung YP-T6 player which I purchased from Future Shop in the Summer. It was the only player I could find that supports ogg which is why I bought it. My requirements are minimal but I've been very happy with it. I use ogg exclusively. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 19:13:35 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:13:35 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A31836.6030108-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512181413.35442.marc@lijour.net> On Friday 16 December 2005 14:40, paul sutton wrote: > Hi > > I was wondering if anyone in the Toronto area. has been involved in > getting open source into schools and if they could share their > experience. Interestingly, we are discussing how to promote CS courses in high-school in my CS course at OISE (UofT). One idea which popped up in my head thanks to the discussions there, is to create a product within the course. This product needs obviously to be based on OSS. We have nice projects around. For example, the Linux Journal came up this month with a Skype server installation at home! Another popular project (see presentation in TLUG) is the Personal Video Recorder (hundreds of dollars at Rogers for example). I have just contacted my colleague who runs the Entrepreneur course to propose her to run a joint program. I believe this would bring considerable exposure i) to CS and Entrepreneur courses and ii) to the OSS projects which allowed us to succeed. Success story + media = big bang :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 19:28:52 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:28:52 +0200 (IST) Subject: apt-get problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Herb Richter wrote: > I have a problem with one computer running knoppix(4.0)/dedian. > > While preparing to install a driver for a HP printer as per HP's > instructions(?) on hpinkjet.sourceforge.net, an apt-get install ___ > failed but went on to remove a *lot* of files including all/most of KDE. > > Now I am unable to install / remove *any* packages using either apt-get or > aptitude. Both seem to get hung trying to remove "kdebluetooth" : This has happened to me too. I do not know why it happened (Knoppix 3.4 and 3.7). I believe that the reason is, that the Knoppix preparers used a very different set of sources for making their distribution, from what is available now on the internet. This causes most apt-related operations to attmept to 'catch up', trying to load the equivalent of a few years of updates, and then it gets stuck because there was a major and incompatible library upgrade in between. Knoppix came with gcc-3.3.3 and I had to upgrade it to 3.3.6 to use some packages I need. I had to do it by hand (afaik you cannot upgrade gcc and glibc using apt across such a large version bump). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 20:11:07 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:11:07 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry Message-ID: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> I intend to add a second HD to my system, but am a little concerned what this would do to my current system in terms of drive letters (when in winXP) and how my linux assignments would be affected. I may add, that if possible, I would like to install OS/2 to the front end of the second HD and use the remainder in 3 equal space partitions for future linux distros. Currently I have the following configuration: Disk /dev/sda: 160.0 GB, 160041885696 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 19457 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 1 613 4923891 b W95 FAT32 /dev/sda2 * 614 8906 66613522+ 7 HPFS/NTFS /dev/sda3 8907 19457 84750907+ f W95 Ext'd (LBA) /dev/sda5 8907 10464 12514603+ b W95 FAT32 /dev/sda6 10465 10719 2048256 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda7 10720 13269 20482843+ 83 Linux /dev/sda8 13270 15180 15350076 83 Linux /dev/sda9 15181 17498 18619303+ 83 Linux /dev/sda10 * 17499 19457 15735636 83 Linux The front end is used by the Win XP, consisting of Recovery Partition, NTFS partition,and a FAT32 partition. The first two are primary and the later is part of an extended partition. The extended partition also has swap and four linux distros. You will notice, that I have only used two primary and one extended partition. I am not sure if I can use the inherent 4th partition also as an extended partition, or is one only permitted to use one extended partition per system? I am also questioning the wisdom of installing the OS/2. What troubles could I expect doing this? Any discussion on the pro's and con's will be appreciated. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 00:39:03 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:39:03 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <200512181511.07385.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <43A60127.5090608@utoronto.ca> Yeah, I think you're only allowed one extended partition per drive. One time I tried to install only an extended partition on a 2nd drive. Not only was I unable to have it commence at cylinder 1, but Win98 had fits seeing anything on that drive. Thus one must install at least one primary partition alongside your extended partition. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 05:10:38 2005 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:10:38 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <200512181413.35442.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> (Marc Lijour's message of "Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:13:35 -0500") References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512181413.35442.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <87k6e1n035.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Marc Lijour writes: > Interestingly, we are discussing how to promote CS courses in > high-school in my CS course at OISE (UofT). One idea which popped up > in my head thanks to the discussions there, is to create a product > within the course. This product needs obviously to be based on OSS. Exposing students to open source development is an excellent way to get them to work on things with real value. I remember being so frustrated by the fact that all of the school projects I worked on each term really came to no use. =) Open source was one of the things that really deepened my appreciation for computer science. We experimented with some of the ideas in open source in the university-level freshman computing course I taught back in the Philippines. During the first semester, students worked on a single-computer multi-player game. During the second term, we swapped the projects around and had the students improve the design and add networking/multithreading. Among other things, the students gained a very good appreciation of the benefits of coding conventions. ;) They also learned a lot from cool things other people did. Exposing students to other people's code is an excellent idea, and something that should be done more often. Also, I remember being inspired by the fact that there was an operating systems course out there that had students experimenting with Linux on the iPaq. I figured that if they could do it, so could I. That was a lot of fun, and it led to my first public commit rights. =) I'm a big fan of open source in computing education, and I think students definitely need to get exposed to bigger projects than the exercises we have them do in class. -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 05:55:49 2005 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:55:49 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <87k6e1n035.fsf-uD3Dy0p8L8fv7aDZy8m+EugtjjKxYvVk@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512181413.35442.marc@lijour.net> <87k6e1n035.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Message-ID: <200512190055.49821.marc@lijour.net> On Monday 19 December 2005 00:10, Sacha Chua wrote: > Marc Lijour writes: > > Interestingly, we are discussing how to promote CS courses in > > high-school in my CS course at OISE (UofT). One idea which popped up > > in my head thanks to the discussions there, is to create a product > > within the course. This product needs obviously to be based on OSS. > > Exposing students to open source development is an excellent way to > get them to work on things with real value. I remember being so > frustrated by the fact that all of the school projects I worked on > each term really came to no use. =) Open source was one of the things > that really deepened my appreciation for computer science. > > We experimented with some of the ideas in open source in the > university-level freshman computing course I taught back in the > Philippines. During the first semester, students worked on a > single-computer multi-player game. During the second term, we swapped > the projects around and had the students improve the design and add > networking/multithreading. Among other things, the students gained a > very good appreciation of the benefits of coding conventions. ;) They > also learned a lot from cool things other people did. Exposing > students to other people's code is an excellent idea, and something > that should be done more often. > > Also, I remember being inspired by the fact that there was an > operating systems course out there that had students experimenting > with Linux on the iPaq. I figured that if they could do it, so could > I. That was a lot of fun, and it led to my first public commit rights. > =) > > I'm a big fan of open source in computing education, and I think > students definitely need to get exposed to bigger projects than the > exercises we have them do in class. Thanks for the ideas! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 15:13:18 2005 From: kburtch-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: PegaSoft Christmas Party -- new date Message-ID: <1135005198.3036.13.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Snowed out last Thursday, the PegaSoft Annual Charity Christmas Dinner will be held tomorrow (Tuesday) at 7:00 pm at the Bedford Road Swiss Chalet next to the St. George subway stop. RSVP Mel Wilson if you will be attending (www.pegasoft.ca/people.html) so we can make sure we have enough seating. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone: 905-562-0848 Author "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Fax: 905-562-0848 http://www.pegasoft.ca Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caution: Comments may be less negative than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 15:37:28 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:37:28 -0500 Subject: TLUG Meeting: Thanks In-Reply-To: <50503.207.188.65.194.1134600420.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <1134445338.10069.45.camel@pentagon.ss.org> <50503.207.188.65.194.1134600420.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <43A6D3B8.7070109@interlog.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Thanks to everyone who showed up at the TLUG meeting yesterday. This was > the first public display of our new oscilloscope and function generator, > and the concept of 'open instrumentation'. I have seen a couple of references to these projects on this mailing list. Is there a web site somewhere that has more details on these projects? -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:19:45 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:19:45 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <200512181511.07385.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051219171945.GA26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 03:11:07PM -0500, John Wildberger wrote: > I intend to add a second HD to my system, but am a little > concerned what this would do to my current system in terms of > drive letters (when in winXP) and how my linux assignments would > be affected. > I may add, that if possible, I would like to install OS/2 to the > front end of the second HD and use the remainder in 3 equal space > partitions for future linux distros. > > Currently I have the following configuration: > > Disk /dev/sda: 160.0 GB, 160041885696 bytes > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 19457 cylinders > Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes > > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > /dev/sda1 1 613 4923891 b W95 FAT32 > /dev/sda2 * 614 8906 66613522+ 7 HPFS/NTFS > /dev/sda3 8907 19457 84750907+ f W95 Ext'd (LBA) > /dev/sda5 8907 10464 12514603+ b W95 FAT32 > /dev/sda6 10465 10719 2048256 82 Linux swap / Solaris > /dev/sda7 10720 13269 20482843+ 83 Linux > /dev/sda8 13270 15180 15350076 83 Linux > /dev/sda9 15181 17498 18619303+ 83 Linux > /dev/sda10 * 17499 19457 15735636 83 Linux > > The front end is used by the Win XP, consisting of Recovery Partition, > NTFS partition,and a FAT32 partition. The first two are primary and the > later is part of an extended partition. > The extended partition also has swap and four linux distros. > You will notice, that I have only used two primary and one extended > partition. > I am not sure if I can use the inherent 4th partition also as an extended > partition, or is one only permitted to use one extended partition per > system? > I am also questioning the wisdom of installing the OS/2. What troubles > could I expect doing this? If you create one primary partition of a type windows can access it will be happy. Any more partitions will have to be logical within one extended partition. Not sure about OS/2 at all. Windows XP does not rearange drive letters the way older dos based ones did. dos based simply assigned drive letters in order to all primary partitions, and then to all logical partitions in disk order. XP assigns drive letters based on the filesystem ID of the partition, so any new partitions get letters assigned after any existing drives. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:24:31 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:24:31 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <20051217015926.GA3894-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051219172431.GB26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 08:59:26PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Okey, except one that I know of. :-) > > But, in all honesty, thin-client alone will eliminate 90% of IT cost, > because it eliminates desktops altogether and all associated cost like > payroll of sysadmin, maintenance, upgrade, configuration, etc. I have > better chance of making my living as porn stud, than as Linux salesman. They already tried thin clients. They just paid way too much for them from Unisys. This was of course before they started running PCs, and in the days where they still had Apple IIs and C64s around, and maybe the odd mac in an office. > I'm just awed by Microsoft's prowse in all this. When they say Linux is > job killer, they are right on. While we Linux amateurs talk about > technical merits of Linux, Microsoft talks directly to the decision > makers and IT staffs. Of course if it does cut down the number of extremely over worked (at least from what I have seen) school board technicians, it would seem like a good thing (except to those technicians that don't want to learn something new). Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:27:02 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:27:02 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051219172702.GC26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:15:34AM -0500, Igor Denisov wrote: > This rings a bell. > I still wonder why they won't reimage over the network, and it might > just be that getting a tech to drive to a school, put the cd in and > press a button silences a few people (unions). Some places do exactly that. Of course they are places that are unix shops with unix admins that looked at windows and went: how do we automate this pile of crap so we can avoid having to maintain them when students mess with them. Auto reimage c: on every boot does the job nicely. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:28:17 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:28:17 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A442B6.7040506-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <20051216225816.GA3127@node1.opengeometry.net> <200512161916.09436.marc@lijour.net> <20051217015926.GA3894@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051217095934.F3880@diamond.ss.org> <96aa4e8f0512170815j4508d649g3273effc534a80f5@mail.gmail.com> <43A442B6.7040506@istop.com> Message-ID: <20051219172817.GD26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:54:14AM -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Isnt the same in this case danger with using Linux as well? One needs > just the first installation CD to put in and get full access (not even > with of the same distribution). Or is there perhaps a way that this > could be prevented? Sensible boot order in bios, bios password set. Of course all machines should have that done in such an environment no matter what. After all if you don't set the bios password, some student will. > But the real question I have is the following. > > Wouldnt it be less expensive to use just one powerfull machine for > entire school/organization and connect to it by using 100$ terminal > machines only, and run in that way any X applications? Certainly a simpler way to manage accounts given students are unlikely to use the same machine every time. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:45:45 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:45:45 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20051219171945.GA26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051219171945.GA26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200512191245.45563.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On Monday 19 December 2005 12:19, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 03:11:07PM -0500, John Wildberger wrote: > > I intend to add a second HD to my system, but am a little > > concerned what this would do to my current system in terms of > > drive letters (when in winXP) and how my linux assignments would > > be affected. > If you create one primary partition of a type windows can access it will > be happy. Any more partitions will have to be logical within one > extended partition. Not sure about OS/2 at all. Windows XP does not > rearange drive letters the way older dos based ones did. dos based > simply assigned drive letters in order to all primary partitions, and > then to all logical partitions in disk order. XP assigns drive letters > based on the filesystem ID of the partition, so any new partitions get > letters assigned after any existing drives. > > Len Sorensen Suppose I delete the FAT32 primary partition on my first HD to give me two available primary partitions for use on the second HD. Then I could install OS/2 (or alternatively Win98) on the first primary and use the second one as an extended partition for subdividing it into umpteen logical drives, one for FAT32 and the others for misc linux distros. Do you think this would work? I am almost willing to go ahead and do it, if for no other reason than to find out what is going to happen. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 17:56:17 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:56:17 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <200512191245.45563.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051219171945.GA26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200512191245.45563.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20051219175617.GE26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 12:45:45PM -0500, John Wildberger wrote: > Suppose I delete the FAT32 primary partition on my first HD to give me > two available primary partitions for use on the second HD. Partitions on each disk are completely independant. Nothing you do on the first HD has anything to do with the second HD. PCs allow 4 primary partitions per HD, or 3 primary and one extended (which contains as many logical partitions as you want). DOS and DOS based windows only read the first primary partition they understand, and any logical partitions they understand. NT based windows might support multiple primary partitions. I never tried this since there didn't seem to be a point. It boots from the first primary partition after all.A If you want to install 98 and XP on one system (why ever you would want 98 is beyond my imagination), then you should install 98 on c:, then install XP, sicne it will tie it's boot loader into the boot sector of c: and create a menu for both versions. Installing 98 second won't work. Of course this means c: is FAT32. You could hide the c: partition by changing the type before installing XP, and then letting grub manage which partition to boot, although XP will still want a primary partition on the first HD then for it's boot sector. You can make grub hide the primary windows partition from the other windows version when you boot it if you want to do that. I barely understand the desire for one version of windows on a machine, never mind two. :) > Then I could install OS/2 (or alternatively Win98) on the first primary > and use the second one as an extended partition for subdividing it > into umpteen logical drives, one for FAT32 and the others for misc linux > distros. > Do you think this would work? > I am almost willing to go ahead and do it, if for no other reason than to find > out what is going to happen. Windows only accepts one primary partition on each drive of types it knows (NTFS/FAT). Any other primary partitions it ignores. It does not like having logical partitions as far as I know on a drive that doesn't have a primary partition, but XP (and NT based in general) may not mind that. I have never tried that personally. You can certainly do something like this: hda1: Windows C: hda2: Linux / hda3: extended hda5: swap hda6: other linux partitions or other windows partitions hda7: same as above etc. hdb1: Another windows drive or maybe OS/2. I know very little about OS/2 hdb2: could just be extended or you can have more primary partitions for linux if you want. Linux doesn't really care which kind they are. hdb5: more partitions of whatever type you need. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 18:22:20 2005 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:22:20 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20051219175617.GE26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200512191245.45563.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051219175617.GE26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200512191322.20074.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On Monday 19 December 2005 12:56, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > If you want to install 98 and XP on one system (why ever you would want > 98 is beyond my imagination), then you should install 98 on c:, then The only reason for doing this would be that with two HDs I would have lots of memory, so why not a Win98? I have lots of windows based software sitting around that WinXP is not able to handle. Fundamentally, a system should be able to handle a variety of OS's. The GRUB bootloader is quite a powerful and flexible loader and might be able to handle the task. I am doing this for exploratory reason, more than for being practical. I also use this forum to challenge people to bring forward their experience for the benefit of all. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 20:26:23 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:26:23 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? Message-ID: Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? Thanks for any suggestions. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 20:35:12 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:35:12 +0000 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A71980.20108@zen.co.uk> I am using kanotix (debian based) and have it running on a duron 1600, with 1gb memory, it runs very well, of course having lots of memory helps, I think perhaps having about 512, means you no longer use a swap file at all. anything below 256 seems to force linux to start using swap, of course windows seems to want a swap regardless of memory. Paul Steve wrote: >Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried >Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros >like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent >quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? > >Thanks for any suggestions. > >-Steve. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 21:55:56 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:55:56 -0500 Subject: PVR's Message-ID: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> Marc Lijour just mentioned some hardware that I am interested in knowing more about. Personal Video recorders. I missed the presentation at Tlug that Marc mentioned. I just installed a Home theater system and am now interested in recording prog's from my Hi-def cable box. I gather the Rogers PVR can only record to its hard drive, no DVD transfer, maybe it is only a low res recorder also. The many PVR's that are available at twice the price have DVD capability but can't handle the hi-def signal, only an NTSC analog one. Can anyone point me to a source of information on the subject? I think it might require a lot of work to discuss it and besides it is well off-topic, not that it matters a lot from what I see. :-) What I have found so far has not been helpful. Merry, merry -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:15:34 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:15:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <200512191655.56617.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051219221535.78867.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Merv Curley wrote: > Marc Lijour just mentioned some hardware that I am > interested in knowing > more about. Personal Video recorders. I missed the > presentation at Tlug > that Marc mentioned. Well, let me suggest that you look at stuff regarding MythTV, starting with the official MythTV website: http://www.mythtv.org/ Then have a look at my introduction: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8658 >From there there are a LOT of possible places to go, but the above should get you started... > I just installed a Home theater system and am now > interested in recording > prog's from my Hi-def cable box. I gather the > Rogers PVR can only record > to its hard drive, no DVD transfer, maybe it is only > a low res recorder > also. The many PVR's that are available at twice > the price have DVD > capability but can't handle the hi-def signal, only > an NTSC analog one. > > Can anyone point me to a source of information on > the subject? I think it > might require a lot of work to discuss it and > besides it is well off-topic, > not that it matters a lot from what I see. :-) > > What I have found so far has not been helpful. > > Merry, merry > > -- > Merv Curley > Toronto, Ont. Can > > SuSE 10 > Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:23:01 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:23:01 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A732C5.4020400@rogers.com> > Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried > Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros > like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent > quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? My SuSE setup runs faster than anything I've ever seen. You need to include some more specs about your system and what you do with it. For all I know, you're running it on a P200. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:34:44 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:34:44 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A73584.6080102@utoronto.ca> Steve wrote: > Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried > Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros > like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent > quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? > > Thanks for any suggestions. > > -Steve. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml Give Mepis a try. I installed it from a simplyMepis livecd onto a friend's HP Vectra, with (IIRC) 450Mhz processor and 96Mb of RAM. Apart from an agonizing initial wait on loading firefox, it seems quite snappy. Regardless, if Mepis can pull off decent KDE performance on an old system like that, you might find it worth trying. For myself, Debian with KDE or Kubuntu are excellent performers. Mandriva 2006 performs well with KDE, but I am on better terms with .deb packages than .rpm so I can't say that I have more than a few days worth of experience with Mandriva. SuSE seemed very slow (especially YaST) on my old athlon 2500+ with 1gb of ram. Perhaps on a newer processor it would perform a little better. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:38:46 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:38:46 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: <43A73584.6080102-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A73584.6080102@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Jamon Camisso wrote: > SuSE seemed very slow (especially YaST) on my old athlon 2500+ with 1gb > of ram. Perhaps on a newer processor it would perform a little better. > > Jamon Exactly! That's what I'm referring to (on my 2500+). I've heard good things about Mepis, I think I'll give it a try based on your suggestion. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:35:48 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:35:48 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: <43A732C5.4020400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A732C5.4020400@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Byron Sonne wrote: > My SuSE setup runs faster than anything I've ever seen. You need to > include some more specs about your system and what you do with it. For > all I know, you're running it on a P200. Sorry about that... AMD 2500+, 512MB OCZ Performance DDR400, Asus A7N8X-X, MSI (NVidia) FX5200TDI-128. Switching virtual desktops has a noticeable lag that I do not get in Gnome desktops (other things like minimizing/maximizing windows are also slower). I think my system is "middle of the road", so I wonder if KDE is meant mainly for faster machines? -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:40:24 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:40:24 +0200 (IST) Subject: funny subjected spam Message-ID: I just got a spam message whose subject is: Subject: Still have microsoft? Have big and hard! peddling Viagra etc. Very funny ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 23:07:45 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:07:45 -0500 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <87k6e1n035.fsf-uD3Dy0p8L8fv7aDZy8m+EugtjjKxYvVk@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512181413.35442.marc@lijour.net> <87k6e1n035.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> Message-ID: <43A73D41.2040201@rogers.com> Sacha Chua wrote: > I'm a big fan of open source in computing education, and I think > students definitely need to get exposed to bigger projects than the > exercises we have them do in class. > Maybe we can get them dumpster diving for code, just like Bill Gates did. (Does? ) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 01:34:10 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:34:10 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <20051219221535.78867.qmail-p6KvMhi7PWKB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051219221535.78867.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200512192034.10319.mervc@eol.ca> On Monday 19 December 2005 17:15, Colin McGregor wrote: > > Well, let me suggest that you look at stuff regarding > MythTV, starting with the official MythTV website: > > http://www.mythtv.org/ > > Then have a look at my introduction: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8658 > Thanks Colin. I had read your article before but the re read was worthwhile. Now to visit the Myth site. I had completely forgotten what MythTV was and did. Staples had Haupp. 150 cards on sale this week, but it seems spending a bit more would be worthwhile. Like much more reasonable than the $800 for some of the commercial units that are available. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 02:09:20 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:09:20 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <200512192034.10319.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051219221535.78867.qmail@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200512192034.10319.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Merv Curley wrote: > Staples had Haupp. 150 cards on sale this week, but it seems spending a > bit > more would be worthwhile. Like much more reasonable than the $800 for > some > of the commercial units that are available. Building a PVR on MythTV is not necessarily cheaper, but definetly more fun. Also, you can do so much more with it than a dedicated PVR appliance. When looking for cards, keep in mind how you want to display the output to your TV. Some video cards have S-Video and composite outputs on the card, but they may be more difficult to get working under Linux. In my MythTV PVR, I use two cards; the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250, and the 350. The 350 does hardware encoding/decoding, while the 250 only does hardware encoding. The result is that I can use a low-end machine as the PVR. If you use cards that do not decode in hardware (like the 150, I believe) then you need a faster CPU. The disadvantage is that the 250 and 350 are fairly expensive. But, you may find a cheap one on eBay. It's all in the FAQ at the sites Colin referenced. Another source of information is the presentation I did a few months ago for NewTLUG. You can access it here: http://www.mora.ca/node/3. Good luck! pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 02:10:20 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:10:20 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051220021020.GA2665@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 03:26:23PM -0500, Steve wrote: > Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried > Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros > like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent > quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? > > Thanks for any suggestions. Slackware -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 04:25:08 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:25:08 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: <43A732C5.4020400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200512192325.08966.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On December 19, 2005 05:35 pm, Steve wrote: > On 12/19/05, Byron Sonne wrote: > > My SuSE setup runs faster than anything I've ever seen. You need to > > include some more specs about your system and what you do with it. For > > all I know, you're running it on a P200. > > Sorry about that... AMD 2500+, 512MB OCZ Performance DDR400, Asus > A7N8X-X, MSI (NVidia) FX5200TDI-128. > > Switching virtual desktops has a noticeable lag that I do not get in > Gnome desktops (other things like minimizing/maximizing windows are > also slower). I think my system is "middle of the road", so I wonder > if KDE is meant mainly for faster machines? > > -Steve. If you liked Ubuntu, then try Kubuntu. I am currently running Kubuntu 5.10 Breezy 32 on an AMD Turion 64 ML30. No lag whatsoever switching desktops. Also running it on a AMD Barton 2800XP w 1GB DDR400. No lag on that one either. My Kids are all running it on their computers. A PII 400 w/256 SDRAM, Celeron 533 w/256 SDRAM, and a PIII 733 w/256 SDRAM. The only one that has any lag is the PII, and it is not really an issue. If you have tried Kubuntu and had a poor experience, I have found that most of the time it is the default kernel causing problems. Simply replacing the stock i386 kernel with an appropriate one for your architecture. Or in my case, the i686 kernel outperformed the k7 kernel by leaps and bounds. And some info for those of you who have not yet tried Ubuntu / Kubuntu. On my laptop everything worked without additional configuration after the installation, including suspend to disk and suspend to ram. It even detected and configured xorg for the ATI X700 card without any problems. You can't say that for many other distros out there. To each their own. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 04:57:43 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:57:43 -0500 Subject: funny subjected spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A748F7.19894.380657@localhost> On 20 Dec 2005 at 0:40, Peter (Peter ) spaketh these wourdes: > Subject: Still have microsoft? Have big and hard! I guess that product would be called ... "Macrohard"? :-) And, I guess people have noticed the "word salad" subject lines lately from spam bots which one would instantly delete. PJK -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 05:55:44 2005 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:55:44 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: <200512192325.08966.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <43A732C5.4020400@rogers.com> <200512192325.08966.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: Jason Shein wrote: > And some info for those of you who have not yet tried Ubuntu / Kubuntu. On my > laptop everything worked without additional configuration after the > installation, including suspend to disk and suspend to ram. It even detected > and configured xorg for the ATI X700 card without any problems. > > You can't say that for many other distros out there. Does it use the ati/radeon driver or fglrx? On my laptop (ASUS M6BNe) it took a little work to get the fglrx module installed. That being said, the video card is an ATI 9700 mobile or whatever it is, not officially listed in the supported cards section of the driver readme. Somehow debian based distros ubuntu/kubuntu, mepis, and of course debian too, detect my screen size properly and render fonts properly without any strange effects with any driver. Fedora, SuSE, and Mandriva all create yellow fuzz around letters, regardless of modelines, DisplaySize lines, dpi changes, antialising etc., and even swtiching between ati/radeon or fglrx drivers. I'm not sure what the differences in Xorg? are (I assume this is where the difference(s) lie). Having two laptop hard drives has made it relatively easy to compare distros on the laptop. Apart from the sudo thing and the default ivman thing in Breezy, I've stuck with Kubuntu on my original drive since the day Hoary came out (saved buying windows with the system) and have not had any issues with it -- even the upgrade to Breezy was seamless... I've tried the other distro's on the other drive to test them out but... Add another to the (growing!?) list of Kubuntu fanboys. It may be popular, but no other distro has worked as well for me for an extended period of time, with seamless upgrades. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 12:34:59 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:34:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Another problem: a thin client system may prevent individual student > creativity with computers. Creativity may not be distinguishable from > Bad Behaviour. Do you remember what it was like being a high school > student? Control by the system may actually work against education. I believe the same thin client model we propose for businesses will actually work in the classroom and provide the creative release needed. Specifically, you don't want people being "creative" on the production server no matter how much it helps their education - it simply impacts other users too much. But this in no way prevents you from providing "crash and burn" systems that can be built, destroyed and rebuilt by the students (at least in a software sense). The key is the lock these systems into a firewalled box: whatever goes on in the room stays in the room. The production system (accesseed via thin client) is always available and the crash and burn systems are always available to crash and burn. The costs are not great either - it is cheaper to rollout a thin client system, both in terms of hardware and administration and the crash and burn systems can be recycled boxes. In businesses we advocate a strict seperation of the production server (accessed via thin client in most cases) and the development boxes which are locked off behind a firewall. Too many development houses expect programmers to develop on their desktop boxes - this is not a good fit as far as I'm concerned and once you start putting multiple boxes on each desktop it's time to stand back and say "there has to be a better way" - well there is. > | At least some portion of the savings made on the "cheap terminals" > | will have to be consumed in beefing up the server and the network. In practice a moderately powerful modern system will run many many thin clients. The key is to add gobs of ram. The cost of a thin client server is not much greater than the cost of many modern desktop systems so overall the savings on hardware are signifcant over the entire organisation, and that's before we look at the savings on administration. (Yeah I know I'm relpying to the previous speaker). For the record I'm typing this on a thin client. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 14:56:44 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:56:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Paul Mora wrote: > On 12/19/05, Merv Curley wrote: > > > Staples had Haupp. 150 cards on sale this week, > but it seems spending a > > bit > > more would be worthwhile. Like much more > reasonable than the $800 for > > some > > of the commercial units that are available. > > > Building a PVR on MythTV is not necessarily cheaper, > but definetly more > fun. Also, you can do so much more with it than a > dedicated PVR appliance. Very true, if you want to build a MythTV box with 100's of terabytes of storage, able to record from 8+ video sources at once, MythTV will let you do it (for a price). When I was writing my article on MythTV I found you could easily get used Tivo on e-Bay for under $100 (U.S.) about what you would pay for one PVR-150 card (without remote). Granted said used Tivo's would be without the TV listing services (which would add a few $/month), and you would be limited to the 40G hard disk included with the unit. So, if anything you should expect a MythTV box to cost you more up front than a Tivo, the reason people go for MythTV are: - You don't have to pay any fees for listing services. - You don't have to worry about the Digital Rights Management @#$%. - You can build the box with as much storage as you kernel, your hardware, and/or your budget will allow. - You can put in as many tuners as your CPU/hardware will support. - You can make the box look the way you want (and there are some very nice looking cases out there). - You can customize the look/feel of the front end. Bottom line you pay a bit more up front, you spend less on operating costs and get a more flexible box. > When looking for cards, keep in mind how you want to > display the output to > your TV. Some video cards have S-Video and > composite outputs on the card, > but they may be more difficult to get working under > Linux. > > In my MythTV PVR, I use two cards; the Hauppauge > WinTV PVR 250, and the > 350. The 350 does hardware encoding/decoding, while > the 250 only does > hardware encoding. The result is that I can use a > low-end machine as the > PVR. If you use cards that do not decode in > hardware (like the 150, I > believe) then you need a faster CPU. The > disadvantage is that the 250 and > 350 are fairly expensive. But, you may find a cheap > one on eBay. The PVR-150 and the PVR-250 are for all but the most intense low-level hardware hackers the same. The only reason I would pick between a PVR-250 and PVR-150 is price (and as the PVR-150 was intended to be a lower cost replacement for the PVR-250, you should assume the PVR-150 will normally win that fight...). Now, I have a PVR-150 for my MythTV box, and I paid under $100 for it at one of the clone dealers near College & Spadina. Keep in mind that there is more than one version of the PVR-150 out there, mine (and part of the reason it was the price it was) did NOT come with a remote, so pay attention to what is/isn't included. Nothing wrong with needing to handle the remote via other means (or another card), just know that is what you are getting yourself in for. Beyond that, you do want hardware on a card to do as much work for you as possible. I am not as keen on the PVR-350 as I gather Paul is, as you can get a fanless nVidia 5200 series video card (that will do fine for MythTV) for around $50... Other stuff, if you want to do the HDTV stuff, the talk of the PVR series cards is irrelevant, you are going to need a HDTV tuner card(s) and while I know MythTV does support (some) HDTV cards, I don't have any direct experience here... > It's all in the FAQ at the sites Colin referenced. > > Another source of information is the presentation I > did a few months ago for > NewTLUG. You can access it here: > http://www.mora.ca/node/3. > > Good luck! > > pm > > -- > Paul Mora > email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 15:11:37 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 20 Dec 2005 10:11:37 -0500 Subject: funny subjected spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter writes: > I just got a spam message whose subject is: > > Subject: Still have microsoft? Have big and hard! > > peddling Viagra etc. Very funny ;-) My favourite was: Subject: Get exposed on the internet It was a marketing company. -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 15:23:32 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:23:32 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process Message-ID: I know the problem is not in Apache. (others would have found the problem a long time ago) Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) PHP/5.0.5 Server at vger1.dyndns.org Port 80 PHP5.05 should not be run with Apache2x? Anyways, over a period of 8 hours, the free memory goes from 125MB to 10MB. Without anyone doing anything at all. Or even pulling up a page from the webserver. If I restart apache, then the free memory goes back to 125MB again. I suppose I could cron restart apache every 8 hours or so, but I would prefer to fix the leak, as opposed to the virtual dutch boy. I have a number of php applications, but since php is interpreted, that php program should not be using memory until that php URL is activated. (yes/no/maybe?) vanilla apache2 setup. no virtualhosting, no modules (except php5 module) no virus's in the system. System was fully scanned. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pallen3-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 15:44:31 2005 From: pallen3-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Patrick Allen) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:44:31 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A826DF.6030005@cogeco.ca> Steve wrote: > Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? This distro is a little "dated" now. But it installed and ran faster than any KDE based flavour I've ever tested. http://www.yoper.com/ (It's even Canadian eh?) PA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 17:01:25 2005 From: Phillip.Qin-szgMhqSEIEG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org (Phillip Qin) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:01:25 -0500 Subject: PVR's Message-ID: Try take out the HDD. I heard that LG or LiteOn HDD/DVD Recorder's HDD is replaceable. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Colin McGregor Sent: December 19, 2005 5:16 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: PVR's --- Merv Curley wrote: > Marc Lijour just mentioned some hardware that I am > interested in knowing > more about. Personal Video recorders. I missed the > presentation at Tlug > that Marc mentioned. Well, let me suggest that you look at stuff regarding MythTV, starting with the official MythTV website: http://www.mythtv.org/ Then have a look at my introduction: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8658 >From there there are a LOT of possible places to go, but the above should get you started... > I just installed a Home theater system and am now > interested in recording > prog's from my Hi-def cable box. I gather the > Rogers PVR can only record > to its hard drive, no DVD transfer, maybe it is only > a low res recorder > also. The many PVR's that are available at twice > the price have DVD > capability but can't handle the hi-def signal, only > an NTSC analog one. > > Can anyone point me to a source of information on > the subject? I think it > might require a lot of work to discuss it and > besides it is well off-topic, > not that it matters a lot from what I see. :-) > > What I have found so far has not been helpful. > > Merry, merry > > -- > Merv Curley > Toronto, Ont. Can > > SuSE 10 > Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml !DSPAM:43a7311b30851759268206! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 18:01:04 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 20 Dec 2005 13:01:04 -0500 Subject: Partition Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20051219171945.GA26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512181511.07385.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20051219171945.GA26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 03:11:07PM -0500, John Wildberger wrote: > > I intend to add a second HD to my system, but am a little > > concerned what this would do to my current system in terms of > > drive letters (when in winXP) and how my linux assignments would > > be affected. > > I may add, that if possible, I would like to install OS/2 to the > > front end of the second HD and use the remainder in 3 equal space > > partitions for future linux distros. > > > > Currently I have the following configuration: > > > > Disk /dev/sda: 160.0 GB, 160041885696 bytes > > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 19457 cylinders > > Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes > > > > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > > /dev/sda1 1 613 4923891 b W95 FAT32 > > /dev/sda2 * 614 8906 66613522+ 7 HPFS/NTFS > > /dev/sda3 8907 19457 84750907+ f W95 Ext'd (LBA) > > /dev/sda5 8907 10464 12514603+ b W95 FAT32 > > /dev/sda6 10465 10719 2048256 82 Linux swap / Solaris > > /dev/sda7 10720 13269 20482843+ 83 Linux > > /dev/sda8 13270 15180 15350076 83 Linux > > /dev/sda9 15181 17498 18619303+ 83 Linux > > /dev/sda10 * 17499 19457 15735636 83 Linux > > > > The front end is used by the Win XP, consisting of Recovery Partition, > > NTFS partition,and a FAT32 partition. The first two are primary and the > > later is part of an extended partition. > > The extended partition also has swap and four linux distros. > > You will notice, that I have only used two primary and one extended > > partition. > > I am not sure if I can use the inherent 4th partition also as an extended > > partition, or is one only permitted to use one extended partition per > > system? > > I am also questioning the wisdom of installing the OS/2. What troubles > > could I expect doing this? > > If you create one primary partition of a type windows can access it will > be happy. Any more partitions will have to be logical within one > extended partition. Not sure about OS/2 at all. Windows XP does not > rearange drive letters the way older dos based ones did. dos based > simply assigned drive letters in order to all primary partitions, and > then to all logical partitions in disk order. XP assigns drive letters > based on the filesystem ID of the partition, so any new partitions get > letters assigned after any existing drives. OS/2 (at least through 2.1, I'm not sure about later versions) used the same strategy as DOS. Consequently, you have to be very careful with primary FAT/HPFS partitions on all but the first drive as they will cause the drive letters of logical partions to change. If you use only logical partitions on the second and subsequent disks, OS/2 will be happy. It's been a long time since I've used OS/2 so take this with a grain of salt. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 18:14:12 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:14:12 +0000 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> For the benefit of those who don't know what this is could someone please explain what a memory leak is. thanks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 18:32:35 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:32:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: <43A849F4.3030105-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > For the benefit of those who don't know what this is could someone please > explain what a memory leak is. Hi Paul. A memory leak is when a process consumes more memory than it releases. Since the process eventually goes on to claim additional memory it can eventually start to consume so much that it impacts the rest of the system. How quickly this happens depends on how bad the leak is and how demanding the process is. The leak Teddy describes seems fairly bad to me. Memory leaks are quite common in software. Tools exist to assist in locating them and ideally production quality applications would not have such bugs. As Teddy notes, a work around is to periodically restart the application to allow the kernel to free the memory for the rest of the system but this is far from ideal in a production environment. In Linux you can impose a limitation on how much memory the process can consume. This will prevent a memory leak taking out the entire system but it doesn't help the process itself which would eventually crash. When you have a memory leak in the kernel itself the only solution is a reboot fortunately such things are very rare. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 18:55:12 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:55:12 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT Message-ID: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer potential employers. I am however willing to take anything, even if its' working in IT making coffee's or perhaps as I am interested in Astronomy something to do with that, again even if it's just on a basic tech level, I can hopefully work my way up, I am sure that many science industries rely on IT and in most cases may even use Linux / Unix for research etc. The opportunity to work along side professionals in the field, and hopefully learn at the same time would be great. Thanks Paul Sutton On a similar note and on a similar thread to my opensource in schools this may be of interest to group members. http://www.techmentor.ca/faq_volunteer.htm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 19:06:38 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:06:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A85390.10103-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <50688.207.188.65.194.1135105598.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Paul - Since you have an interest in astronomly, you might want to post your message (or something similar) to the newsgroup of the Royal Astronomical Society. rascals-ETbvJ2rUIr4Zq07fGvhYvA at public.gmane.org Peter > Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month > work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as > well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere > to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as > while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux > stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer > potential employers. > > I am however willing to take anything, even if its' working in IT > making coffee's or perhaps as I am interested in Astronomy something to > do with that, again even if it's just on a basic tech level, I can > hopefully work my way up, I am sure that many science industries rely > on IT and in most cases may even use Linux / Unix for research etc. > > The opportunity to work along side professionals in the field, and > hopefully learn at the same time would be great. > > Thanks > > Paul Sutton > > On a similar note and on a similar thread to my opensource in schools > this may be of interest to group members. > > http://www.techmentor.ca/faq_volunteer.htm > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 21:29:19 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:29:19 -0500 Subject: fat32 invisible files Message-ID: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> I am having an odd problem here and I can't seem to locate the cause. I have a fat32 partition shared between windows and linux and my laptop. When I write files to the disk from within linux, the files are invisible to windows until I run checkdisk. I am using the following fstab entry /dev/hda6 /data vfat rw,user,noauto,sync,iocharset=utf8,umask=000 0 0 The odd part about this is that the following fstab entry works for the USB hard drives and flash keys and not for the internal drive. /dev/sda2 /media/sda2 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0 I was just looking around again and after some reading I have added nls=utf8 to the fstab entry as well. I have copied 2 test files to check later today, and will post the results. But in case it does not work, has anyone ever come across this before? -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 21:47:28 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:47:28 +0000 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A87BF0.9040509@zen.co.uk> Thanks This sounds familar Paul > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > >> For the benefit of those who don't know what this is could someone >> please explain what a memory leak is. > > > Hi Paul. A memory leak is when a process consumes more memory than it > releases. Since the process eventually goes on to claim additional > memory it can eventually start to consume so much that it impacts the > rest of the system. How quickly this happens depends on how bad the > leak is and how demanding the process is. The leak Teddy describes > seems fairly bad to me. > > Memory leaks are quite common in software. Tools exist to assist in > locating them and ideally production quality applications would not > have such bugs. > > As Teddy notes, a work around is to periodically restart the > application to allow the kernel to free the memory for the rest of the > system but this is far from ideal in a production environment. > > In Linux you can impose a limitation on how much memory the process > can consume. This will prevent a memory leak taking out the entire > system but it doesn't help the process itself which would eventually > crash. > > When you have a memory leak in the kernel itself the only solution is > a reboot fortunately such things are very rare. > > Rob > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 21:55:13 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:55:13 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A85390.10103-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, paul sutton wrote: > Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month > work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as > well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere > to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as > while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux > stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer > potential employers. A common scenario seems to be that a lot of organizations are forlornly searching for skilled staff. That's the step above "entry level." There were a couple recruiters at the last meeting in much the same desperate search that some of the folks at my employer are; they have been talking to people, and not finding people at the "skilled enough" level. I'm not sure what the answer to that is. It's certainly relevant to you... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:07:46 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:07:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format Message-ID: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> I was on the Elections Canada site (www.elections.ca) and their videos for candidates are in some windows media crap format unplayable in Mac OS X and presumably Linux. What video format can I suggest to Elections Canada so that their videos are playable also in Mac OS X and Linux? Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:16:09 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:16:09 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A880B2.7070605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > > I was on the Elections Canada site (www.elections.ca) and their videos > for candidates are in some windows media crap format unplayable in Mac > OS X and presumably Linux. > > What video format can I suggest to Elections Canada so that their videos > are playable also in Mac OS X and Linux? > > Ivan. > MPEG is usually the defacto standard that works on everything. -Steve. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:19:23 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:19:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43A8836B.1060605@utoronto.ca> Would that be mpeg2? Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:23:47 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:23:47 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <49CB0BB5-71A7-11DA-959D-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:55 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > A common scenario seems to be that a lot of organizations are > forlornly searching for skilled staff. While, at the same time, there's an abundance of very experienced IT people unemployed, under-employed, or bouncing from one exploitive company to the next. > not finding people at the "skilled enough" > level. I suspect that the expansion of "skilled enough" causes most of the problem. I recently saw an ad, insisting on someone with pthreads and sockets experience on Solaris. It so happens that I *have* done that, but by specifying the OS, they were prejudicing the search against people who otherwise had the ability they needed. (And learning the bits that Solaris does differently isn't a big deal!) Also, I routinely see ads asking for in-depth knowledge of some custom, in-house technology. Likewise, experience in a particular line of business that probably won't have a major impact on IT duties. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:38:14 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:38:14 -0500 Subject: fat32 invisible files In-Reply-To: <200512201629.19369.jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <20051220223814.GA11559@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 04:29:19PM -0500, Jason Shein wrote > I am having an odd problem here and I can't seem to locate the cause. > > I have a fat32 partition shared between windows and linux and my laptop. ***** ***** ***** [...deletia...] > I am using the following fstab entry > > /dev/hda6 /data vfat rw,user,noauto,sync,iocharset=utf8,umask=000 0 0 But, but, but... according to "man mount"... -o Options are specified with a -o flag followed by a comma sepa- rated string of options. Some of these options are only useful when they appear in the /etc/fstab file. The following options apply to any file system that is being mounted (but not every file system actually honors them - e.g., the sync option today has effect only for ext2, ext3 and ufs): -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 22:46:44 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:46:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A880B2.7070605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43A889D4.2050204@pppoe.ca> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I was on the Elections Canada site (www.elections.ca) and their videos > for candidates are in some windows media crap format unplayable in Mac > OS X and presumably Linux. Can you please give the specific URL where I can find the videos? I was at the site. Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 23:29:50 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:29:50 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A880B2.7070605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43A893EE.8060402@rogers.com> > What video format can I suggest to Elections Canada so that their videos > are playable also in Mac OS X and Linux? If they don't bother sending it back in a new format (I'm running linux, and prefer AVI to be honest) it appears xine is supported under OS X: http://xinehq.de/index.php/about Dunno about using the windows codecs and DLLs under OS X (like I do now via http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/ and from an mplayer package too, I think) those might have issues with non x86 chips. Most of it seems to run OK on my amd64 box, but there were some wrinkles at first. Another option may be wine or the crossover plugin/office from codeweavers. Cheers, Byron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 00:13:48 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:13:48 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On 12/20/05, paul sutton wrote: >> Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month >> work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as >> well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere >> to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as >> while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux >> stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer >> potential employers. > > A common scenario seems to be that a lot of organizations are > forlornly searching for skilled staff. That's the step above "entry > level." > > There were a couple recruiters at the last meeting in much the same > desperate search that some of the folks at my employer are; they have > been talking to people, and not finding people at the "skilled enough" > level. Such as a recent grad, with 5 years experience? Or looking for more years experience than the package has been around? I've seen similar ads. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 00:16:34 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:16:34 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <49CB0BB5-71A7-11DA-959D-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <49CB0BB5-71A7-11DA-959D-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <43A89EE2.9080603@rogers.com> phil wrote: > On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:55 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > >> A common scenario seems to be that a lot of organizations are >> forlornly searching for skilled staff. > > While, at the same time, there's an abundance of very experienced IT > people unemployed, under-employed, or bouncing from one exploitive > company to the next. > >> not finding people at the "skilled enough" >> level. > > I suspect that the expansion of "skilled enough" causes most of the > problem. I recently saw an ad, insisting on someone with pthreads and > sockets experience on Solaris. It so happens that I *have* done that, > but by specifying the OS, they were prejudicing the search against > people who otherwise had the ability they needed. (And learning the > bits that Solaris does differently isn't a big deal!) It's often the HR types that make that mistake. The people who know what they're doing generally don't. I had one interview, a few years ago, where they want someone with experience at using Ghost. While I had used Partition Magic extensively, that wasn't good enough. I have since used Ghost, and it wasn't much of a challenge. > > Also, I routinely see ads asking for in-depth knowledge of some custom, > in-house technology. Likewise, experience in a particular line of > business that probably won't have a major impact on IT duties. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 00:26:31 2005 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:26:31 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <20051220145644.15992.qmail-JoSsSUNfUciB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What about doing PVR on Mac? I have the promise of a generous wad of cash for my birthday, and I was thinking of building a Mac-based entertainment centre Tom On 20-Dec-05, at 9:56 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > --- Paul Mora wrote: >> On 12/19/05, Merv Curley wrote: >> >>> Staples had Haupp. 150 cards on sale this week, >> but it seems spending a >>> bit >>> more would be worthwhile. Like much more >> reasonable than the $800 for >>> some >>> of the commercial units that are available. >> >> >> Building a PVR on MythTV is not necessarily cheaper, >> but definetly more >> fun. Also, you can do so much more with it than a >> dedicated PVR appliance. > > Very true, if you want to build a MythTV box with > 100's of terabytes of storage, able to record from 8+ > video sources at once, MythTV will let you do it (for > a price). When I was writing my article on MythTV I > found you could easily get used Tivo on e-Bay for > under $100 (U.S.) about what you would pay for one > PVR-150 card (without remote). Granted said used > Tivo's would be without the TV listing services (which > would add a few $/month), and you would be limited to > the 40G hard disk included with the unit. So, if > anything you should expect a MythTV box to cost you > more up front than a Tivo, the reason people go for > MythTV are: > > - You don't have to pay any fees for listing services. > - You don't have to worry about the Digital Rights > Management @#$%. > - You can build the box with as much storage as you > kernel, your hardware, and/or your budget will allow. > - You can put in as many tuners as your CPU/hardware > will support. > - You can make the box look the way you want (and > there are some very nice looking cases out there). > - You can customize the look/feel of the front end. > > Bottom line you pay a bit more up front, you spend > less on operating costs and get a more flexible box. > >> When looking for cards, keep in mind how you want to >> display the output to >> your TV. Some video cards have S-Video and >> composite outputs on the card, >> but they may be more difficult to get working under >> Linux. >> >> In my MythTV PVR, I use two cards; the Hauppauge >> WinTV PVR 250, and the >> 350. The 350 does hardware encoding/decoding, while >> the 250 only does >> hardware encoding. The result is that I can use a >> low-end machine as the >> PVR. If you use cards that do not decode in >> hardware (like the 150, I >> believe) then you need a faster CPU. The >> disadvantage is that the 250 and >> 350 are fairly expensive. But, you may find a cheap >> one on eBay. > > The PVR-150 and the PVR-250 are for all but the most > intense low-level hardware hackers the same. The only > reason I would pick between a PVR-250 and PVR-150 is > price (and as the PVR-150 was intended to be a lower > cost replacement for the PVR-250, you should assume > the PVR-150 will normally win that fight...). > > Now, I have a PVR-150 for my MythTV box, and I paid > under $100 for it at one of the clone dealers near > College & Spadina. Keep in mind that there is more > than one version of the PVR-150 out there, mine (and > part of the reason it was the price it was) did NOT > come with a remote, so pay attention to what is/isn't > included. Nothing wrong with needing to handle the > remote via other means (or another card), just know > that is what you are getting yourself in for. > > Beyond that, you do want hardware on a card to do as > much work for you as possible. I am not as keen on the > PVR-350 as I gather Paul is, as you can get a fanless > nVidia 5200 series video card (that will do fine for > MythTV) for around $50... > > Other stuff, if you want to do the HDTV stuff, the > talk of the PVR series cards is irrelevant, you are > going to need a HDTV tuner card(s) and while I know > MythTV does support (some) HDTV cards, I don't have > any direct experience here... > >> It's all in the FAQ at the sites Colin referenced. >> >> Another source of information is the presentation I >> did a few months ago for >> NewTLUG. You can access it here: >> > http://www.mora.ca/node/3. >> >> Good luck! >> >> pm >> >> -- >> Paul Mora >> email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 00:37:59 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:37:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A889D4.2050204-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> <43A889D4.2050204@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43A8A3E7.1070204@utoronto.ca> Meng: this page has the videos. I clicked on the first one. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 01:13:17 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:13:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A8A3E7.1070204-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> <43A889D4.2050204@pppoe.ca> <43A8A3E7.1070204@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43A8AC2D.9060306@pppoe.ca> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Meng: this page has the videos. I clicked on the first one. > > Ivan. What page? :-) I tried all 3 and SOL. I'll talk to my local election officer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 01:27:15 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:27:15 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format Message-ID: <43A8AF73.2050703@pppoe.ca> Ivan If you are going to write Elections Canada, how about a petition? I'll sign up. Thanks. Meng -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 20:42:22 2005 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:42:22 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A86CAE.6030307@pobox.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > >> For the benefit of those who don't know what this is could someone >> please explain what a memory leak is. > > > Hi Paul. A memory leak is when a process consumes more memory than it > releases. That's only a partial definition of a leak -- it's perfectly reasonable for a process to allocate more memory than it releases, so long as it uses all that memory. What happens if the process tries to use more memory than is available is another question. :) The thing that characterizes a memory leak is that the process stops using some of the memory that it has allocated, but fails to release it. That's the leak -- the bookkeeping fails, and the process loses track of some memory. The memory is not being used, but since the process doesn't know about it anymore, it can't release it back to the operating system. As Robert suggests, the bookkeeping required is quite difficult for large programs, which is why so many people were excited about Java and other languages with garbage collectors. Garbage collectors essentially automate a lot of this stuff, making it much harder (but by no means impossible) to cause a memory leak. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 02:20:41 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:20:41 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A89E3C.30300-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> Message-ID: <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 20, 2005, at 7:13 PM, James Knott wrote: > Or looking for more > years experience than the package has been around? My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of object-oriented programming. And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone who "communicates well". How could they judge? :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 02:41:51 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 20 Dec 2005 21:41:51 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: <43A86CAE.6030307-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> <43A86CAE.6030307@pobox.com> Message-ID: Andrej Marjan writes: > Robert Brockway wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > > > >> For the benefit of those who don't know what this is could someone please > >> explain what a memory leak is. > > > > > > > Hi Paul. A memory leak is when a process consumes more memory than it > > releases. > > > > That's only a partial definition of a leak -- it's perfectly reasonable for a > process to allocate more memory than it releases, so long as it uses all that > memory. What happens if the process tries to use more memory than is > available is another question. :) > > > The thing that characterizes a memory leak is that the process stops using > some of the memory that it has allocated, but fails to release it. That's the > leak -- the bookkeeping fails, and the process loses track of some > memory. The memory is not being used, but since the process doesn't know > about it anymore, it can't release it back to the operating system. That's still not the full picture as some leaks are troublesome and some are not. Suppose I write this: void silly_example(const char *s) { char *message = strdup(s); /* strdup() allocates memory */ printf("%s\n", message); /* Function returns without calling free(message). */ } Clearly, whenever I call silly_example(), I leak some memory. Now, suppose silly_example() is desinged to be called only once at program initialization and is, in fact, called only once. Technically, I still have a memory leak but it's bounded. The program uses more memory than is strictly necessary but its memory usage is not growing (at least not due to this leak). On the other hand, consider what happens if silly_example() is called repeatedly, every time the program services some kind of event, for example. In this case, the program's memory usage grows without bound until it eventually exhausts all memory or is killed (perhaps by the operating system). I suspect quite a few programs and libraries have initialization code that allocates memory that is never released. While this may not be considered "good style", it doesn't cause a problem. It's the second kind of leak that's a problem, the kind that causes an application's memory usage to grow without bound. Paradoxically, slow leaks are often the most difficult to track down as the process may run for days or months before the problem is noticed. > As Robert suggests, the bookkeeping required is quite difficult for large > programs, which is why so many people were excited about Java and other > languages with garbage collectors. Garbage collectors essentially automate a > lot of this stuff, making it much harder (but by no means impossible) to > cause a memory leak. There are garbage collectors available for C, most notably the Boehm Demers Weiser conservative garbage collector: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ Also, many C++ programs use a weak form of garbage collection known as reference counting. Why more C/C++ developers (including myself) don't use garbage collection more often is a bit of a mystery. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:11:28 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:11:28 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A8AC2D.9060306-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> <43A889D4.2050204@pppoe.ca> <43A8A3E7.1070204@utoronto.ca> <43A8AC2D.9060306@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43A8C7E0.6060604@utoronto.ca> Sorry about that I thought I had posted the link. For those that can't find it: http://www.elections.ca/entities_e.asp?section=pol&document=video&dir=can&lang=e Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:12:18 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:12:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A8AF73.2050703-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43A8AF73.2050703@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43A8C812.5040904@utoronto.ca> I believe a simple complaint will do. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:24:25 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:24:25 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> phil wrote: > On Dec 20, 2005, at 7:13 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Or looking for more >> years experience than the package has been around? > > My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of > object-oriented programming. > > And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone > who "communicates well". How could they judge? :-) At least some like you are able to see the absurdities around. I have in mind your previous mail as well. To see the absurdity of the system is one thing. To know though what is the reason of that absurdity.. is another one. And I guess that the reason is well hidden in socio-political processes around - these are not really fully governed by logic, perhaps more by short (not long!) term gain in profits. I personally consider much what I see around as sick. First of all, in great amount of cases, not HR people should be dealing with recruiting new ones but people who are really aware well of what are the needs around. But thats only a part of the problem... zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 04:11:19 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:11:19 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A8CAE9.3050301-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A8D5E7.3000404@iprimus.ca> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > phil wrote: > >> On Dec 20, 2005, at 7:13 PM, James Knott wrote: >> >>> Or looking for more >>> years experience than the package has been around? >> >> >> My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of >> object-oriented programming. >> >> And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone >> who "communicates well". How could they judge? :-) > > At least some like you are able to see the absurdities around. I have > in mind your previous mail as well. > > To see the absurdity of the system is one thing. To know though what > is the reason of that absurdity.. is another one. And I guess that the > reason is well hidden in socio-political processes around - these are > not really fully governed by logic, perhaps more by short (not long!) > term gain in profits. > > I personally consider much what I see around as sick. > > First of all, in great amount of cases, not HR people should be > dealing with recruiting new ones but people who are really aware well > of what are the needs around. But thats only a part of the problem... > > zb. I agree with that totally. HR and recruiters are the proverbial "blind leading the blind" scenario, and not just in IT, its even worse in other functions such as finance/accounting. When I was a hiring manager, I would never allow some dweeb from HR to even screen the resumes for a candidate who might eventually report to me. These days it seems as if the business environment in most if not all areas are geared towards the "quick fix" solutions, hiring practices being high on that list, governed by lack of understanding of what skills are really required to do the job, and more of "will the candidate fit in" with the current tribe. Thats how it seems to me anyway my 2 bits ..:P -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 04:43:03 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:43:03 -0500 Subject: How do I get nscd working? Message-ID: <20051221044303.GA12706@waltdnes.org> My system is connecting to the net, but nscd doesn't seem to be caching DNS requests. Yes, I did "rc-update add nscd default" and "/etc/init.d/nscd start". But "ping -c 4 google.com" sends traffic to 192.168.123.254 port 53 each time, even if only 30 seconds apart. This was confirmed by running "tcpdump -n dst port 53" in another console and watching the output. /etc/resolv.conf has only one line, which points at my combo ADSL router/modem that gets its DNS IP addresses from the PPPOE negotiation. nameserver 192.168.123.254 The un-commented portion of /etc/nscd.conf is like so enable-cache hosts yes positive-time-to-live hosts 3600 negative-time-to-live hosts 20 suggested-size hosts 211 check-files hosts yes ...and /etc/nsswitch.conf says... # /etc/nsswitch.conf: # $Header: /var/cvsroot/gentoo-x86/sys-libs/glibc/files/nsswitch.conf,v 1.1 2005/05/17 00:52:41 vapier Exp $ passwd: compat shadow: compat group: compat # passwd: db files nis # shadow: db files nis # group: db files nis hosts: files dns networks: files dns services: db files protocols: db files rpc: db files ethers: db files netmasks: files netgroup: files bootparams: files automount: files aliases: files -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 05:32:45 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:32:45 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A8D5E7.3000404-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> <43A8D5E7.3000404@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Clive DaSilva wrote: > These days it seems as if > the business environment in most if not all areas are geared towards the > "quick fix" solutions, hiring practices being high on that list, > governed by lack of understanding of what skills are really required to > do the job, > and more of "will the candidate fit in" with the current tribe. There can be occasions when things get particularly, erm, "tribal," where it is actually pretty important whether or not the candidate will "fit." I have watched candidates *not* fit, and *not* work, even though there was reasonably considered care in their selection. In the cases I particularly have in mind (and some might feel telepathic about this ;-)), inability to fit into the "current tribe" was in truth a severe loss because that specifically hindered learning. They weren't already experts; they needed to learn from the people around them. Failure to learn prevented them from becoming competent. This can be true in any kind of environment where it is unlikely that people will come in as "experts." In a "high availability" context, there is another aspect to this, namely that if HA is needful, you can NOT have a multiplicity of kinds of "operational doctrines" in play. Right or wrong, an organization needs a well-defined set of "operational doctrines" otherwise anyone can do anything and you no longer have systems capable of being kept running at a high pace 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Someone who doesn't "fit with the tribe" is, ipso facto, a liability to the goal of "24x365", whether they're nice, smart, or have good ideas. If they're not "with the tribe," then they are injuring the capability of running those systems 24x365. That's not the entirety of all industry, but I'd hazard the guess that this is likely true for all of the cases where you heard people saying, last Tuesday, that they were having trouble finding the kind of people they need. The guys running a financial trading floor don't need cowboys coming in with the attitude of "Oh, let's replace that with some Fedora Core N machines." They're not interested in how much faster KDE may run on Slackware, and bringing up Gentoo as anything other than a joke likely won't fit in there. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 06:12:30 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:12:30 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://sourcefrog.net/weblog/software/linux-kernel/free-mem.html http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=175419 http://www.unixguide.net/linux/faq/06.08.shtml What is be learned from this? 1.Never jump to hasty conclusions.(unless your Dr House) 2.Never underestimate the linux kernel _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of teddymills Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:24 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: memory leak in httpd or child process I know the problem is not in Apache. (others would have found the problem a long time ago) Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) PHP/5.0.5 Server at vger1.dyndns.org Port 80 PHP5.05 should not be run with Apache2x? Anyways, over a period of 8 hours, the free memory goes from 125MB to 10MB. Without anyone doing anything at all. Or even pulling up a page from the webserver. If I restart apache, then the free memory goes back to 125MB again. I suppose I could cron restart apache every 8 hours or so, but I would prefer to fix the leak, as opposed to the virtual dutch boy. I have a number of php applications, but since php is interpreted, that php program should not be using memory until that php URL is activated. (yes/no/maybe?) vanilla apache2 setup. no virtualhosting, no modules (except php5 module) no virus's in the system. System was fully scanned. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 06:59:19 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:59:19 +0200 (IST) Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Tom Legrady wrote: > What about doing PVR on Mac? > > I have the promise of a generous wad of cash for my > birthday, and I was thinking of building a Mac-based entertainment centre MiniMAC ? I see one playing at a mall here, it is driving a whole room full of flat screens for display. You have to look twice to spot it. I do not know if it can be done with a MiniMAC but it would be nice. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 07:02:06 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:02:06 +0200 (IST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, phil wrote: > On Dec 20, 2005, at 7:13 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Or looking for more >> years experience than the package has been around? > > My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of > object-oriented programming. > > And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone who > "communicates well". How could they judge? :-) Well, that's one requirement that you can stop worrying about, then ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 10:43:43 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 05:43:43 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A8CAE9.3050301-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> Message-ID: <43A931DF.80006@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > phil wrote: >> On Dec 20, 2005, at 7:13 PM, James Knott wrote: >> >>> Or looking for more >>> years experience than the package has been around? >> >> My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of >> object-oriented programming. >> >> And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone >> who "communicates well". How could they judge? :-) > At least some like you are able to see the absurdities around. I have in > mind your previous mail as well. > > To see the absurdity of the system is one thing. To know though what is > the reason of that absurdity.. is another one. And I guess that the > reason is well hidden in socio-political processes around - these are > not really fully governed by logic, perhaps more by short (not long!) > term gain in profits. > > I personally consider much what I see around as sick. > > First of all, in great amount of cases, not HR people should be dealing > with recruiting new ones but people who are really aware well of what > are the needs around. But thats only a part of the problem... I suspect the hiring manager would generally know what's a suitable equivalent experience, but then HR takes the manager's list and makes them hard requirements, without allowing for that equivalent experience that the manager has in mind. People in HR tend not to be qualified to make that sort of decision and that also applies to many recruiters. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 13:09:13 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:09:13 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> <43A8D5E7.3000404@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:32 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > In a "high availability" context, there is another aspect to this, > namely that if HA is needful, you can NOT have a multiplicity of kinds > of "operational doctrines" in play. I think you're right for operational areas where maintaining a process is most important. (Though even there, *someone* needs to be enough of an outsider to prevent total stagnation and the resulting inability to adapt to external changes.) It's much more obviously a poor decision when you hire for nominally creative positions and filter based on a resemblance to the existing flock. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 13:27:02 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:27:02 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A8CAE9.3050301-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> Message-ID: <78C743B8-7225-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 20, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > At least some like you are able to see the absurdities around. I have > in mind your previous mail as well. I have been on both sides of the hiring desk in large and small organizations, so I've seen some dumb things done by those hiring and those applying for jobs. > To see the absurdity of the system is one thing. To know though what > is the reason of that absurdity.. is another one. And I guess that the > reason is well hidden in socio-political processes around - these are > not really fully governed by logic, perhaps more by short (not long!) > term gain in profits. Yes. One example: I entered computing at a time when it was assumed that sending people on training courses was a good idea. As long as everyone did that, there was no problem. Soon thereafter, some organizations decided that it was cheaper to "head hunt" people that others had paid to train. Which led to less company-sponsored education, which contributes to a demand for overly-specific requirements.... > I personally consider much what I see around as sick. There's certainly a lot of reason to feel that way. Sometimes "soft" requirements are put in job descriptions with good intent and sometimes not. I think most experienced people know that "team player" and "good communicator" and "energetic" are sometimes indicators of "sickness". It's hard to know for sure until you're inside the organization. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 13:31:12 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:31:12 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <20051221133112.GA12064@ettin> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 09:20:41PM -0500, phil wrote: >My favorite of that style was: five years of Java and three years of >object-oriented programming. > >And the people who write illogical requirements always want someone who >"communicates well". How could they judge? :-) Job posting jargon: "Fast passed environment": Management constantly changes its mind. "Ability to prioritize goals": Because management cannot. "10 years experience with Windows 2000": Because we have a time machine. "... in a 24x7 environment": We are understaffed so you must work overtime. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 111 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 13:45:36 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:45:36 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051221133112.GA12064@ettin> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <20051221133112.GA12064@ettin> Message-ID: <10DC28F0-7228-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > "... in a 24x7 environment": We are understaffed so you must work > overtime. :-) It strikes me that the WWW has created something like Heisenberg Computing: As we come to tolerate less and less accuracy in our data, we inflate our demands for its immediacy. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:01:55 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:01:55 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <10DC28F0-7228-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <20051221133112.GA12064@ettin> <10DC28F0-7228-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, phil wrote: > On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > > > "... in a 24x7 environment": We are understaffed so you must work > > overtime. > > :-) > > It strikes me that the WWW has created something like Heisenberg > Computing: As we come to tolerate less and less accuracy in our data, > we inflate our demands for its immediacy. There is another effect. As relatively reliable OSes combine with inexpensive OSS shopping cart software and web servers and the like, anyone can sell anything at any time of the day, and keeping the "store" open during the wee hours either comes at seemingly little cost or at seemingly significant value since other timezones are awake to buy things when we are asleep. This sort of thing dictates "7x24" operations. I got a bit put out on Sunday night when I saw that del.icio.us wasn't responding; apparently adding it to the Yahoo! "empire" led to a wave of new users that knocked it over. And it was a definite "off hour" when the outage took place, requiring that there be some people ready to respond at a pretty evil time. There's no obvious money there, but I'm sure there were plenty of irritated users. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:02:53 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:02:53 +0000 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e55af990512210602y745f66e1l768478e61b4a9814@mail.gmail.com> On 12/19/05, Steve wrote: > Can anyone suggest a distro that uses KDE that is fast? I've tried > Xandros and SuSE, but found both to be sluggish, whereas Gnome distros > like Fedora and Ubuntu are pretty quick. Or is this just an inherent > quality of KDE, that it is rather slow compared to Gnome? I don't know enough to compare Gnome and KDE, but after having tried PCLinuxOS (and with a lot of tweaking of the hotkeys and other preferences) I'm very happy with it. I used to be a blackbox user but I've since switched over to KDE full-time. http://www.pclinuxonline.com/pclos/ My system is a bit mangled right now, but pre-mangling it was very snappy on my 1.4GHz 1GB RAM setup. Having been a blackbox user, I'm very sensitive to these slow window managers and wigits and whatnot.. the full-blown KDE experience has been great thus far. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:07:21 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:07:21 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Peter wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Tom Legrady wrote: > > > What about doing PVR on Mac? > > > > I have the promise of a generous wad of cash for my > > birthday, and I was thinking of building a Mac-based entertainment centre > > MiniMAC ? I see one playing at a mall here, it is driving a whole room > full of flat screens for display. You have to look twice to spot it. I > do not know if it can be done with a MiniMAC but it would be nice. Given some MythTV equivalent, a MacMini would do OK to *play* TV output. I don't think it comes with a tuner suitable for encoding. For that, and the "hefty horsepower," a dual G5 system would seem way more plausible. And that still leaves open the question of what to do about recording from a tuner, which presumably requires some additional hardware. Apparently some tuners work: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/OSX/os_x_tv_tuner_drivers.html The real question is whether or not this plays nicely, giving an Apple-style "integrated experience" as is true for things like iTunes... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:52:32 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:32 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <20051221133112.GA12064@ettin> <10DC28F0-7228-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <6A2E4175-7231-11DA-B2F6-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 21, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > There's no obvious money there, but > I'm sure there were plenty of irritated users. Even though I know better, I do the same kind of silly things. I was horribly irate over some NNTP screw-ups by a provider a few weeks ago. It's Usenet...what did I miss in two days...I mean, really?!? For commerce, I understand that there may be a sales-critter mentality that claims every sale is critically important -- I spent three-and-a-half years in a company that was ruled by that kind -- but at some point there should be a ROI calculation that includes *all* the costs of making a sale, whether those are staffing, development, infrastructure, or "just" morale. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:55:28 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:55:28 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43A96CE0.8090906@sympatico.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > > Given some MythTV equivalent, a MacMini would do OK to *play* TV > output. I don't think it comes with a tuner suitable for encoding. > For that, and the "hefty horsepower," a dual G5 system would seem way > more plausible. ... but way more expensive. Plextor do a version of their TV402 for the Mac. Ad that, and a big external firewire disk, and you're laughing. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 18:47:24 2005 From: jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:47:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A8836B.1060605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> <43A8836B.1060605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Would that be mpeg2? No, MPEG1. I don't think MPEG2 codecs are completely standard yet. If not MPEG1 (for compatibility), then one might suggest MPEG4 (for filesize, and availability of codecs), probably encapuslated in AVI. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jonzou-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 19:25:25 2005 From: jonzou-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jon) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:25:25 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <43A96CE0.8090906-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43A96CE0.8090906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3009c0a80512211125n461b362hd85edc43340ba321@mail.gmail.com> http://www.pchdtv.com/ this one seems very good for linux pvr and is also cheap On 12/21/05, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > Christopher Browne wrote: > > > > Given some MythTV equivalent, a MacMini would do OK to *play* TV > > output. I don't think it comes with a tuner suitable for encoding. > > For that, and the "hefty horsepower," a dual G5 system would seem way > > more plausible. > > ... but way more expensive. Plextor do a version of their TV402 for the > Mac. Ad that, and a big external firewire disk, and you're laughing. > > cheers, > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:35:50 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:35:50 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A85390.10103-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: Paul, If you post an abbreviated C.V (Resume) to the list with your current qualifications you may find that someone on the list knows of some position. -Joseph- On 12/20/05, paul sutton wrote: > Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month > work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as > well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere > to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as > while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux > stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer > potential employers. > > I am however willing to take anything, even if its' working in IT > making coffee's or perhaps as I am interested in Astronomy something to > do with that, again even if it's just on a basic tech level, I can > hopefully work my way up, I am sure that many science industries rely > on IT and in most cases may even use Linux / Unix for research etc. > > The opportunity to work along side professionals in the field, and > hopefully learn at the same time would be great. > > Thanks > > Paul Sutton > > On a similar note and on a similar thread to my opensource in schools > this may be of interest to group members. > > http://www.techmentor.ca/faq_volunteer.htm > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:46:08 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:46:08 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, otherwise it could end up as a big post. paul Joseph Kubik wrote: >Paul, If you post an abbreviated C.V (Resume) to the list with your >current qualifications you may find that someone on the list knows of >some position. >-Joseph- > >On 12/20/05, paul sutton wrote: > > >>Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month >>work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as >>well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere >>to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as >>while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux >>stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer >>potential employers. >> >>I am however willing to take anything, even if its' working in IT >>making coffee's or perhaps as I am interested in Astronomy something to >>do with that, again even if it's just on a basic tech level, I can >>hopefully work my way up, I am sure that many science industries rely >>on IT and in most cases may even use Linux / Unix for research etc. >> >>The opportunity to work along side professionals in the field, and >>hopefully learn at the same time would be great. >> >>Thanks >> >>Paul Sutton >> >>On a similar note and on a similar thread to my opensource in schools >>this may be of interest to group members. >> >>http://www.techmentor.ca/faq_volunteer.htm >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:44:40 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:44:40 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB Message-ID: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. I bought - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip - Airlink AWLL3026 USB -- ZyDAS 1211 chip (cheap clipped on plastic case) Manufacturer changed the chipset on me. So, what I got wasn't what others reported, and it took some time/effort before I could locate source-code drivers. Anyways, it's kind of cool to see USB key booting off, and doing X-terminal session through USB wireless. :-) But, I'm getting only 11Mbit (802.11b), when both end of Ad-Hoc wireless is 54Mbit (802.11g). They're bloody 2m apart! I would like to acknowledge - Bill Thanis (TLUG) for lending me his very expensive Lucent Orinoco Gold PCMCIAs and PCI-to-PCMCIA adapter. - Jeff Lorentz (BGLUG) for his most informative website. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 21:51:13 2005 From: jaaaarel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:51:13 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051221204440.GA4065-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, William Park wrote: > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > I bought > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip > - Airlink AWLL3026 USB -- ZyDAS 1211 chip (cheap clipped on plastic case) > > Manufacturer changed the chipset on me. So, what I got wasn't what > others reported, and it took some time/effort before I could locate > source-code drivers. Anyways, it's kind of cool to see USB key booting > off, and doing X-terminal session through USB wireless. :-) > > But, I'm getting only 11Mbit (802.11b), when both end of Ad-Hoc wireless > is 54Mbit (802.11g). They're bloody 2m apart! Are the wireless device and USB port USB1.1 or USB2.0? USB1.1 has a maximum throughput of 12Mbps. If they're both USB2.0, but a USB1.1 device is hooked up to the same bus as a USB2.0 device then it's also possible that the 1.1 device could interfere with the maximum bandwidth available. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 22:59:38 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:59:38 -0500 Subject: ***SPAM*** Re:fat32 invisible files In-Reply-To: <20051220223814.GA11559-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <20051220223814.GA11559@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <200512211759.38254.jason@detachednetworks.ca> I think I have solved my own problem. > I have a fat32 partition shared between windows and linux and my laptop. > When I write files to the disk from within linux, the files are invisible > to windows until I run checkdisk. My originally used line in fstab ( before I started modifying it ) was: /dev/hda6 /data vfat rw,user,noauto 0 0 Which as I stated earlier, works fine on all USB drives. Now using the following line seems to have solved the problem. /dev/hda6 /data vfat users,rw,noauto,umask=0 0 0 The files are being written to the disk properly now. Frustratingly simple. -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 23:10:59 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:10:59 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: ; from cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 12:32:45AM -0500 References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> <623F0E96-71C8-11DA-9D18-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <43A8CAE9.3050301@istop.com> <43A8D5E7.3000404@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> I generally agree with Chris on this topic, but I have several things to add. 1) Many jobs that require that level of 'fit' are not identified as such and it is only found out after the fact. This causes many problems that could be avoided before they happen. 2) Many companies treat people as field replacable units (FRUs) but are annoyed when they need to replace those people. If you are creating a tribe mentality you should also doing things to foster that tribe mentality. 3) Companies need to be realistic about their requirements. If you want 24x7 uptime, then hire enough people to provide it and don't expect people to give up there free time (even if paid for) for the sake of that goal. Bill > > and more of "will the candidate fit in" with the current tribe. > > There can be occasions when things get particularly, erm, "tribal," > where it is actually pretty important whether or not the candidate > will "fit." > > I have watched candidates *not* fit, and *not* work, even though there > was reasonably considered care in their selection. > > In the cases I particularly have in mind (and some might feel > telepathic about this ;-)), inability to fit into the "current tribe" > was in truth a severe loss because that specifically hindered > learning. They weren't already experts; they needed to learn from the > people around them. Failure to learn prevented them from becoming > competent. > > This can be true in any kind of environment where it is unlikely that > people will come in as "experts." > > In a "high availability" context, there is another aspect to this, > namely that if HA is needful, you can NOT have a multiplicity of kinds > of "operational doctrines" in play. > > Right or wrong, an organization needs a well-defined set of > "operational doctrines" otherwise anyone can do anything and you no > longer have systems capable of being kept running at a high pace 24 > hours a day, 365 days a year. Someone who doesn't "fit with the > tribe" is, ipso facto, a liability to the goal of "24x365", whether > they're nice, smart, or have good ideas. If they're not "with the > tribe," then they are injuring the capability of running those systems > 24x365. > > That's not the entirety of all industry, but I'd hazard the guess that > this is likely true for all of the cases where you heard people > saying, last Tuesday, that they were having trouble finding the kind > of people they need. > > The guys running a financial trading floor don't need cowboys coming > in with the attitude of "Oh, let's replace that with some Fedora Core > N machines." They're not interested in how much faster KDE may run on > Slackware, and bringing up Gentoo as anything other than a joke likely > won't fit in there. > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 02:54:41 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:54:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <3009c0a80512211125n461b362hd85edc43340ba321-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43A96CE0.8090906@sympatico.ca> <3009c0a80512211125n461b362hd85edc43340ba321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: jon [Please use plain text in postings to mailing lists.] | http://www.pchdtv.com/ | | this one seems very good for linux pvr and is also cheap This is an HDTV tuner (HD-3000). Decoding the video stream (and encoding it for recording) is done by software. They recommend a serious CPU (>2.4MHz, acording to their FAQ, and in some cases, a P4 3.0MHz with HT). Most HDTV tuner cards only work with over-the-air HDTV broadcasts, not over-cable signals. For most people, I think that this is useless. This one claims to support "unencrypted QAM 64 and QAM 256 Cable signals"; elsewhere it mentions supporting 8VSB too. I wonder if our cable companies supply any? Here is a note from the site: Is Cable/QAM supported? The pcHDTV HD-3000 cards support the three major types of cable transmissions-- 8VSB, QAM64 and QAM256. It is possible however for cable companies to encrypt channels and render the card unable to record some or all channels. Success will depend on each cable company and how they distribute cable to each neighborhood. On average in the US, 70% of cable is unencrypted. You may be able to find out exactly what is available in your area at avsforum.com's reception index A quick look at the AVS Forum entries about Toronto only tells me about OTA (Over The Air) HDTV stations. It seems to me that since the cable companies sell PVRs, it is in their interest to exclude others from this market. What better way than by "accidental" technical means? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 03:54:38 2005 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:54:38 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: ; from hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 21:54:41 -0500 References: <20051220145644.15992.qmail@web88208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43A96CE0.8090906@sympatico.ca> <3009c0a80512211125n461b362hd85edc43340ba321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051222035438.GC1545@localhost> On Wed Dec 21,2005 09:54:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This one claims to support "unencrypted QAM 64 and QAM 256 Cable > signals"; elsewhere it mentions supporting 8VSB too. I wonder if > our cable companies supply any? Here is a note from the site: > > Is Cable/QAM supported? The pcHDTV HD-3000 cards support the > three major types of cable transmissions-- 8VSB, QAM64 and QAM256. > It is possible however for cable companies to encrypt channels and > render the card unable to record some or all channels. Success > will depend on each cable company and how they distribute cable to > each neighborhood. On average in the US, 70% of cable is > unencrypted. > You may be able to find out exactly what is available in your area > at > avsforum.com's reception index Rogers cable in Toronto encrypts all digital channels except few demo/promotional channels. I believe that it's the same with other Canadian cable providers. This site is a good source of information: -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 05:50:08 2005 From: cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Charles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:50:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051221181059.A25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young people! If you are not young and not white you definitely will not fit in! Chris --- billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > I generally agree with Chris on this topic, but I > have several things to add. > > 1) Many jobs that require that level of 'fit' are > not identified as such and it is only found out > after the fact. This causes many problems that could > be avoided before they happen. > > 2) Many companies treat people as field replacable > units (FRUs) but are annoyed when they need to > replace those people. If you are creating a tribe > mentality you should also doing things to foster > that tribe mentality. > > 3) Companies need to be realistic about their > requirements. If you want 24x7 uptime, then hire > enough people to provide it and don't expect people > to give up there free time (even if paid for) for > the sake of that goal. > > Bill > > > > and more of "will the candidate fit in" with the > current tribe. > > > > There can be occasions when things get > particularly, erm, "tribal," > > where it is actually pretty important whether or > not the candidate > > will "fit." > > > > I have watched candidates *not* fit, and *not* > work, even though there > > was reasonably considered care in their selection. > > > > In the cases I particularly have in mind (and some > might feel > > telepathic about this ;-)), inability to fit into > the "current tribe" > > was in truth a severe loss because that > specifically hindered > > learning. They weren't already experts; they > needed to learn from the > > people around them. Failure to learn prevented > them from becoming > > competent. > > > > This can be true in any kind of environment where > it is unlikely that > > people will come in as "experts." > > > > In a "high availability" context, there is another > aspect to this, > > namely that if HA is needful, you can NOT have a > multiplicity of kinds > > of "operational doctrines" in play. > > > > Right or wrong, an organization needs a > well-defined set of > > "operational doctrines" otherwise anyone can do > anything and you no > > longer have systems capable of being kept running > at a high pace 24 > > hours a day, 365 days a year. Someone who doesn't > "fit with the > > tribe" is, ipso facto, a liability to the goal of > "24x365", whether > > they're nice, smart, or have good ideas. If > they're not "with the > > tribe," then they are injuring the capability of > running those systems > > 24x365. > > > > That's not the entirety of all industry, but I'd > hazard the guess that > > this is likely true for all of the cases where you > heard people > > saying, last Tuesday, that they were having > trouble finding the kind > > of people they need. > > > > The guys running a financial trading floor don't > need cowboys coming > > in with the attitude of "Oh, let's replace that > with some Fedora Core > > N machines." They're not interested in how much > faster KDE may run on > > Slackware, and bringing up Gentoo as anything > other than a joke likely > > won't fit in there. > > -- > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > > "The true measure of a man is how he treats > someone who can do him > > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, > lexicographer (1709-1784) > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > http://drpcdr.ca Tel 416 398 DRPC 71 Sentinel Rd Toronto, ON, M3J 1T1 cccharlee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 06:04:09 2005 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (J. Qiang Li) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: man page unrecognized characters Message-ID: <20051222060409.32943.qmail@web54715.mail.yahoo.com> hi, i am using aterm and getting unrecognized character in man page. however it is fine with xterm. below is part of `man ls`. ==================================================== file status information) with -l: show ctime and sort by name other?€? --color[=WHEN] control whether color is used to distinguish file types. WHEN may be ?€˜never?€™, ?€˜always?€™, or ?€˜auto?€™ generate output designed for Emacs?€™ dired mode =============================================== under aterm, also tried perldoc LWP which gives me similar problem too. also tried with groff , same problem. my current locale is : LANG= LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" LC_TIME="POSIX" LC_COLLATE="POSIX" LC_MONETARY="POSIX" LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" LC_PAPER="POSIX" LC_NAME="POSIX" LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" LC_ALL= ======== and in another system i have the same problem with locale LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.utf8 LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ALL= i need to keep LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.utf8 in order to use chinese in my application. could that be the problem ? how do i fix it ? James. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 06:57:25 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:57:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A9BF10.3020008-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and post > there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, otherwise it > could end up as a big post. Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". The problem with this of course is that when you first arrive you have none of this Canadian experience and so getting the first job can be harder than expected. As an immigrant from Australia I encountered this when I first arrived - Australia has no equivalent concept and I was a bit surprised when I hit this wall. I was out of work 6 weeks when I arrived, which I'm told is very short - most immigrants are out of work for much longer. Give that you'll only be visiting Canada for a year and will mainly be seeking contract positions (I imagine) this may be less of an issue. Anyway good luck in the job hunt. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 07:48:34 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 02:48:34 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051222074834.GA2562@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 04:51:13PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > On 12/21/05, William Park wrote: > > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > > I bought > > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip > > - Airlink AWLL3026 USB -- ZyDAS 1211 chip (cheap clipped on plastic case) > > > > Manufacturer changed the chipset on me. So, what I got wasn't what > > others reported, and it took some time/effort before I could locate > > source-code drivers. Anyways, it's kind of cool to see USB key booting > > off, and doing X-terminal session through USB wireless. :-) > > > > But, I'm getting only 11Mbit (802.11b), when both end of Ad-Hoc wireless > > is 54Mbit (802.11g). They're bloody 2m apart! > > Are the wireless device and USB port USB1.1 or USB2.0? USB1.1 has a > maximum throughput of 12Mbps. If they're both USB2.0, but a USB1.1 > device is hooked up to the same bus as a USB2.0 device then it's also > possible that the 1.1 device could interfere with the maximum > bandwidth available. One end is the above PCI card. The other end is the above USB 2.0 stick. Both are 802.11b/g. Maybe it's just factory default, and I probably have to set some registers. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 10:42:10 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 05:42:10 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > >> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and >> post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, >> otherwise it could end up as a big post. > > Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) > > I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you > don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily > as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". Whenever I hear about that, I have to wonder how Canadian computers differ from those in other countries.. What's really disgusting is that at a time when we're short of doctors in this province, immigrant doctors are driving cabs or flipping burgers! Why isn't there some sort of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 10:55:54 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:55:54 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Hi Further to this, my website is at www.zen14920.zen.co.uk. I have put a link to my cv in pdf format. I am aware it's not 100% canadian resume format yet but I am working on this, However it needs to be in dual format really or a mid way format, so I can give this to people here. I have looked at volunteering with ontarionature, partly as they provide accomodation, I figured doing that means I can meet other people and if they see me working I can find out about jobs that way, This will also be a good way to see the area, I am not particularly looking for IT jobs, howver as this is an IT based discussion list and I am already off topic, It's probably best to keep to IT as the subject. The purpose of this trip is cultural exchange. While in Canada I would like to get to a few LUG meetings, plus do stuff that I can't do over here, I like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football games, or perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of the last great wilderness areas on Earth, thanks Paul > > Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) > > I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if > you don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as > easily as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian > experience". > > The problem with this of course is that when you first arrive you have > none of this Canadian experience and so getting the first job can be > harder than expected. As an immigrant from Australia I encountered > this when I first arrived - Australia has no equivalent concept and I > was a bit surprised when I hit this wall. I was out of work 6 weeks > when I arrived, which I'm told is very short - most immigrants are out > of work for much longer. Give that you'll only be visiting Canada for > a year and will mainly be seeking contract positions (I imagine) this > may be less of an issue. > > Anyway good luck in the job hunt. > > Rob > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 11:01:09 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:01:09 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA8302.1030005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43AA8775.3070303@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > > Why isn't there some sort > of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? There is, but a lot of the problem lies with the professional associations. Since they exist to protect members' salaries, they make it hard for newcomers to get in. There is a federal agency dealing with this professional prejudice, but there's a lot of work to be done. For instance, last year, PEO were still not recognizing non-Canadian professional engineering qualifications. Suggestion for original poster: contact the local BCS chapter. There's an active one in Toronto. They are nice people. cheers, Stewart (though my MBCS/CEng isn't that much use for what I do now ...) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 11:51:58 2005 From: transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Kamran) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:51:58 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA8775.3070303-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <43AA8775.3070303@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <43AA935E.8070907@sympatico.ca> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> >> Why isn't there some sort >> of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? > > > There is, but a lot of the problem lies with the professional > associations. Since they exist to protect members' salaries, they make > it hard for newcomers to get in. > Most of the professional organizations in Canada recognize qualifications from countries with equivalent standards of education. It becomes a problem getting certified when your education is not up to snuff. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 12:55:15 2005 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:55:15 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA863A.1060206-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <90E88EF1-6110-4239-991B-9C59E1DAC5B5@rogers.com> That would be the stands during an Argos game? Tom On 22-Dec-05, at 5:55 AM, paul sutton wrote: > .... essentially I will be able to experience Canadian culture, > as well as see some of the last great wilderness areas on Earth, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pkozlenko-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 13:36:00 2005 From: pkozlenko-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul Kozlenko) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:36:00 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051222074834.GA2562-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051222074834.GA2562@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43AAABC0.8090408@rogers.com> Most wireless routers will only support 802.11b or 802.11g at one time. Therefore, if there is a third device {somehwere nearby} communicating with the router that is 802.11b. The router will switch to the lower speed and the others will be forced to the same as a result. Not sure if they actually have to connect and get an IP or what. There are some newer {relative} routers that can support multi-speed simultaneous. ($$$) I couldn't tell you the model however. - Paul William Park wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 04:51:13PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > >> On 12/21/05, William Park wrote: >> >>> I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. >>> I bought >>> - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip >>> - Airlink AWLL3026 USB -- ZyDAS 1211 chip (cheap clipped on plastic case) >>> >>> Manufacturer changed the chipset on me. So, what I got wasn't what >>> others reported, and it took some time/effort before I could locate >>> source-code drivers. Anyways, it's kind of cool to see USB key booting >>> off, and doing X-terminal session through USB wireless. :-) >>> >>> But, I'm getting only 11Mbit (802.11b), when both end of Ad-Hoc wireless >>> is 54Mbit (802.11g). They're bloody 2m apart! >>> >> Are the wireless device and USB port USB1.1 or USB2.0? USB1.1 has a >> maximum throughput of 12Mbps. If they're both USB2.0, but a USB1.1 >> device is hooked up to the same bus as a USB2.0 device then it's also >> possible that the 1.1 device could interfere with the maximum >> bandwidth available. >> > > One end is the above PCI card. The other end is the above USB 2.0 > stick. Both are 802.11b/g. Maybe it's just factory default, and I > probably have to set some registers. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 13:35:47 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:35:47 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA863A.1060206-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org>; from zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 10:55:54AM +0000 References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> > > The purpose of this trip is cultural exchange. While in Canada I would > like to get to a few LUG meetings, plus do stuff that I can't do over > here, I like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian > football games, or perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially > I will be able to experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of > the last great wilderness areas on Earth, > Lofty goals. the great wilderness start about 500-800 km from Toronto and there is no real way to get there. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 13:41:06 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:41:06 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222055008.2705.qmail-rKdozF2cvCevuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! > >Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >people! > >If you are not young and not white you definitely will >not fit in! That's a bit harsh. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 112 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 13:45:44 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:45:44 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA935E.8070907-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from transoxania-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 06:51:58AM -0500 References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <43AA8775.3070303@sympatico.ca> <43AA935E.8070907@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20051222084544.C25573@diamond.ss.org> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 06:51:58AM -0500, Kamran wrote: > Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > James Knott wrote: > > > >> > >> Why isn't there some sort > >> of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? > > > > > > There is, but a lot of the problem lies with the professional > > associations. Since they exist to protect members' salaries, they make > > it hard for newcomers to get in. > > > > Most of the professional organizations in Canada recognize > qualifications from countries with equivalent standards of education. > It becomes a problem getting certified when your education is not up to > snuff. > -- Most professional organizations in Ontario recognize qualifications from other English speaking countries. You can have a degree from the best institutes in the non-english speaking world and it generally makes no difference. This is not true in all provinces as it is fairly easy to enter the professional groups in Alberta, and Quebec. Also, Canadian immigration offices often don't tell perspective immigrants that their profession is regulated in Canada so they will be umable to practice it. I know one woman with a pharmacy degree from the University of Cario (a very prestigious program outside of Canada) that spent six months dicking around with that organization in Ontario before moving out to Alberta. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 15:35:56 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:35:56 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43A89E3C.30300-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, James Knott wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > > On 12/20/05, paul sutton wrote: > >> Some time in 2006, I am intending coming over to Canada, on a 12 month > >> work authorisation, I am currently researching jobs in the area, as > >> well as accomodation as if I am staying long term I will need somewhere > >> to stay. What sort of jobs are there in Toronto for entry level IT as > >> while I can do pretty much anything I would like to learn some linux > >> stuff so when I return to the Uk I have some excellent skills to offer > >> potential employers. > > > > A common scenario seems to be that a lot of organizations are > > forlornly searching for skilled staff. That's the step above "entry > > level." > > > > There were a couple recruiters at the last meeting in much the same > > desperate search that some of the folks at my employer are; they have > > been talking to people, and not finding people at the "skilled enough" > > level. > > Such as a recent grad, with 5 years experience? Or looking for more > years experience than the package has been around? I've seen similar > ads. No, it seemed that they needed to put a bunch more boxes onto a trading floor, and were looking for people with the "slightly scarred look" that comes from having put systems with some financial impact/importance into production. Our own recent desire has been to beef up on AIX expertise, as we have been deploying quite a lot of that. We had heard rumour that Celestica was laying off a bunch of folks with some years of AIX; it looks as though the banks snatched them up so fast that their resumes didn't get a chance to head to anyone we knew. It's not as if AIX is particularly new; requirements certainly wouldn't have been "8 years experience with AIX 5.4" when that's still a future version :-). Seeing the "AIX" keyword, during the relevant searches, would doubtless get a resume looked at more finely by someone with some clue of how to interpret it. The silliest thing I ever saw was a search for someone with 2 years of NeXTstep experience very shortly after the first release of the NeXT cube. The only plausible candidates, there, would be NeXT staff... -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 15:55:53 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:55:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: man page unrecognized characters In-Reply-To: <20051222060409.32943.qmail-Uh0DAzrVkheA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20051222060409.32943.qmail@web54715.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: J. Qiang Li | Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Subject: [TLUG]: man page unrecognized characters | | hi, i am using aterm and getting unrecognized character in man page. | however it is fine with xterm. below is part of `man ls`. "man" pays attention to the LC_CTYPE environment variable. It will use non-ASCII characters if the variable says that they are available. I don't know what limitations xterm has with respect to character set. I know that in my setup, utf-8 stuff is not properly displayed on xterm. But xterm does know something about characters beyond iso-8859. It has some support for CJK (Chinese/Japanese/Korean characters). The -en, -lc, -u8, and -wc flags might be relevant. See xterm(1)'s description of "locale" resource, part of the vt100 widget ("resource" is an arcane but important X concept). | my current locale is : | LANG= | LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.UTF-8 | ======== and in another system i have the same problem with locale | LANG=en_US.UTF-8 | LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.utf8 | i need to keep LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.utf8 in order to use chinese in my application. could that be the | problem ? how do i fix it ? I think that at most one of the following can be correct: | LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.UTF-8 | LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.utf8 The second is probably wrong. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 16:15:41 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:15:41 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: ; from cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 10:35:56AM -0500 References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A89E3C.30300@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051222111541.D25573@diamond.ss.org> > > The silliest thing I ever saw was a search for someone with 2 years of > NeXTstep experience very shortly after the first release of the NeXT > cube. The only plausible candidates, there, would be NeXT staff... I saw five years of Java experience in 1995, which meant they were trying to snag the two guys who inveted the language. The most notorious is Microsoft technologies. Dot Net is less than 5 years old and you still see 'minimum five years experience' requirements. Having a clue about what is required is not a needed in requirement circles. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 17:15:09 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:15:09 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election Message-ID: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> FYI: I don't know whether anyone here considers open source to be important enough of a public policy matter to consider it an election issue, but consider this: The Green Party actually has as specific policy the goal to: > Require federal departments and agencies to transition to open > source or free software for general applications, and provide free > tech support to Canadian companies who also use this software. http://www.greenparty.ca/article38.html I searched for anything on the other party websites and found nothing in terms of policy. The Liberals only talk about more university R&D funds and the Conservatives seem to ignore technology altogether. The NDP doesn't say anything as a party, but are running one candidate in Manitoba who lists "FOSS advocate" in his bio: http://www.ndp.ca/mathieuallard/welcome Other notes: The Liberal site uses Microsoft ASP to run its "find your candidate" facility, the Conservatives use PHP and the NDP site uses Javascript. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 17:59:30 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:59:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > >> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and post >> there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, otherwise it >> could end up as a big post. > > Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) > > I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you don't > find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily as you did > at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". What is Canadian Experience, exactly ? Where do they teach this and at what level is it required ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:02:44 2005 From: presidentofthefuture-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Newman) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:02:44 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > NDP doesn't say anything as a party, but are running one candidate in > Manitoba who lists "FOSS advocate" in his bio: > http://www.ndp.ca/mathieuallard/welcome Gary Dale (http://www.ndp.ca/garydale/welcome) runs Debian on his desktop and laptop and always seems up to date on the goings-on in the Free software world. Also, I believe that the ONDP is no longer purchasing Microsoft software and is trying to migrate to Free projects where feasible (but don't quote me on that!) I don't know if Gary lurks on this list, but I can certainly ask him about that. It's nice to see the Conservatives using PHP but I'd be surprised if any of the three parties put much more thought into it than, "We have to find a company that can make us a nice website." On the other hand, I'm sure that a visiting Gates or Ballmer would receive a much warmer welcome from a Conservative or Liberal PM than a New Democrat or Green. Mike -- Get Firefox - Take back the Web http://www.getfirefox.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:04:08 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:04:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA8302.1030005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, James Knott wrote: > Robert Brockway wrote: >> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: >> >>> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and >>> post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, >>> otherwise it could end up as a big post. >> >> Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) >> >> I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you >> don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily >> as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". > > Whenever I hear about that, I have to wonder how Canadian computers > differ from those in other countries.. What's really disgusting is that > at a time when we're short of doctors in this province, immigrant > doctors are driving cabs or flipping burgers! Why isn't there some sort > of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? What I 'like' most about this is, that actual cabdrivers cannot immigrate due to the point system, whereas an MD can, and then cannot practice before passing his equivalence exams. And everyone knows this. Maybe they think it's cool to have a cab driver with a PhD. At least he would know how to read the map and not get lost. Incidentally Canada is not the only immigration country that has such 'standards'. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:12:24 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:12:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <20051222083547.B25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 22, 2005 08:35, billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > The purpose of this trip is cultural exchange. While in Canada I > > would like to get to a few LUG meetings, plus do stuff that I > > can't do over here, I like NFL so may be able to get to NFL > > games, or Canadian football games, or perhaps even look at going > > to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to experience Canadian > > culture, as well as see some of the last great wilderness areas > > on Earth, > > Lofty goals. the great wilderness start about 500-800 km from > Toronto and there is no real way to get there. That's a bit of an exaggeration. I've fished on the Montreal River up by New Liskeard and various lakes around Chapleau that I was able to reach by car where the only signs of civilization, aside from the little fishing boat I was in, were vapour trails left by planes in the sky. You don't have to go 500 km from Toronto to get that kind of experience. Algonquin Park, Killarney Park, the Temagami area are a few places that come to mind that can offer a wilderness experience without having to drive that far. Of course there is always the option of flying in to one of tens of thousands of lakes in Northern Ontario by float plane if you wanted to go further afield. On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway 109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up to James Bay. It would be about 1700 km from Toronto to Chissasibi, which is at the end of that road on James Bay . I read a travelogue of someone who drove up there and it seems like quite an adventure indeed. See here: . If I recall correctly, there was a 700 km stretch with no gas stations so most people would have to carry spare fuel. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:18:39 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:18:39 -0400 (AST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? In particular, I'd like to know if they have specific facts to back up this policy. DRDC has conducted an extensive research on FOSS and made an 'informed' recommendation to all GOV departments to 'consider' using FOSS and commercial software alike, and choose what fits their needs (as opposed to considering only commercial software, which is what most departments tend to do). One needs to keep in mind that Free in FOSS refers to choice and not cost. There is a cost associated with using FOSS, and in many cases it may exceed the costs of commercial software. Do you guys know a person up the hierarchy at the Green Party who can give an informative talk about FOSS and politics? Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > FYI: > > I don't know whether anyone here considers open source to be important > enough of a public policy matter to consider it an election issue, but > consider this: The Green Party actually has as specific policy the > goal to: > > > Require federal departments and agencies to transition to open > > source or free software for general applications, and provide free > > tech support to Canadian companies who also use this software. > > http://www.greenparty.ca/article38.html > > I searched for anything on the other party websites and found nothing > in terms of policy. The Liberals only talk about more university R&D > funds and the Conservatives seem to ignore technology altogether. The > NDP doesn't say anything as a party, but are running one candidate in > Manitoba who lists "FOSS advocate" in his bio: > http://www.ndp.ca/mathieuallard/welcome > > Other notes: The Liberal site uses Microsoft ASP to run its "find your > candidate" facility, the Conservatives use PHP and the NDP site uses > Javascript. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:20:21 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:20:21 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway > 109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up > to James Bay. It would be about 1700 km from Toronto to Chissasibi, > which is at the end of that road on James Bay > . I read a travelogue of someone who drove > up there and it seems like quite an adventure indeed. See here: > . If I recall correctly, there was a 700 > km stretch with no gas stations so most people would have to carry > spare fuel. What are the roads like up there ? I imagine freezing/thawing destroys them pretty quick and they are not rebuilt every year ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:20:37 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:20:37 -0500 Subject: Fastest KDE distro? In-Reply-To: <20051220021020.GA2665-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051220021020.GA2665@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, William Park wrote: > > Slackware Actually I've wanted to try Slackware for a while now. I think I'll give it a try as soon as I get the time. Thanks for the suggestion. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:54:22 2005 From: phillip-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg at public.gmane.org (phil) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:54:22 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5D540528-731C-11DA-834F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter wrote: > Maybe they think it's cool to have a cab driver with a PhD. At least > he would know how to read the map and not get lost. Having talked with a number of PhDs, I think I'd rather trust a real cabbie...maybe...a *little* more, at least. :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:58:51 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:58:51 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221058m64dd0e54h8cdd2b642eb617d2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I don't know whether anyone here considers open source to be important > enough of a public policy matter to consider it an election issue, but > consider this: The Green Party actually has as specific policy the This specific fact combined with the national-sized scope of their 2004 platform that actually took me to the voters booth last year for the first time. Won't be the last, either. :-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:01:34 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:01:34 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221101i46bc7fb5wd775e9f657466417@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > One needs to keep in mind that Free in FOSS refers to choice and not cost. > There is a cost associated with using FOSS, and in many cases it may > exceed the costs of commercial software. > > Do you guys know a person up the hierarchy at the Green Party who can give > an informative talk about FOSS and politics? You might try http://contact.greenparty.ca/contactus.php or http://ridings.greenparty.ca/ to see if you can't get the candidate in your riding's interest. Best of luck. :-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:06:46 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:06:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <5D540528-731C-11DA-834F-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <5D540528-731C-11DA-834F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <50470.207.188.65.194.1135278406.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter wrote: > >> Maybe they think it's cool to have a cab driver with a PhD. At least >> he would know how to read the map and not get lost. > > Having talked with a number of PhDs, I think I'd rather trust a real > cabbie...maybe...a *little* more, at least. :-) > I recently picked up a cab at the corner of Church and Gerrard. I asked him to take me to the Royal Ontario Museum. "You'll need to give me directions" he said. On the way over there, he took out a row of plastic cones next to a construction site. A bunch of construction workers were closing in on the cab, but fortunately the light changed and we got away. I should have asked the driver if he had his PhD. P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:10:20 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:10:20 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <43AAFA1C.8030307@telly.org> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? In particular, I'd like to know if they have specific facts to back up this policy. DRDC has conducted an extensive research on FOSS and made an 'informed' recommendation to all GOV departments to 'consider' using FOSS and commercial software alike, and choose what fits their needs (as opposed to considering only commercial software, which is what most departments tend to do). > > I'm not sure I get your point. They're expressing a political philosophy, developed into a policy of what they would do. What do facts have to do with it? ;-) It's my understanding that the policy is based on the principal that technology that is purchased with public funds be shared with the public when possible. If the government spends money to program a database, why shouldn't the code (though not the data) be available for public re-use? Why should technology of any kind that is funded by public money be hoarded at all when sharing is possible? >One needs to keep in mind that Free in FOSS refers to choice and not cost. > > IMO that concept -- "free speech" versus "free beer" -- is generally well understood here. In fact, what needs to be kept in mind IMO that this is not about "FOSS versus commercial software" as stated above. Red Hat and Novell and Xandros (and of course many others) deliver FOSS which *is* commercial software. It is very important to note that the distinction is not "FOSS versus commercial", it's about "free versus _proprietary_" technology. There is a difference, and it's significant. >There is a cost associated with using FOSS, and in many cases it may exceed the costs of commercial software. > The first time, maybe. What about the second time? There is an incredible amount of wheel-reinvention within the public service. Consultants get one ministry to finance development of a system, only to sell the same system back to another ministry with no cost savings. The re-use of software possible by insisting upon open source offers huge cost savings potential. Beyond that, choosing FOSS is also a public statement about the value of sharing in the creation of a better society, and such choices are not always the cheapest ones in the short term. After all, it's cheaper to make buildings that are inaccessible to wheelchairs or without parkland around. It's cheaper to hire menial labour without an imposed minimum wage. And it's cheaper to burn garbage than to process it in other ways -- yet in each case we choose the more "costly" path... Going with FOSS can be (and usually is) a cost saving measure, but even when not it offers other benefits. I'm not with the Green Party, though the roots of the policy are pretty easy to figure out. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:26:37 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:26:37 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <43AAFDED.5030401@georgetown.wehave.net> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway > 109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up > to James Bay. Very nice. I didn't realize there were roads up there, I'll have to give that a try (in summer)! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:29:11 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <43AAFDED.5030401-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <43AAFDED.5030401@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <20051222192911.GC31927@ettin> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 02:26:37PM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: >CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > >>On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway >>109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up >>to James Bay. > >Very nice. I didn't realize there were roads up there, I'll have to >give that a try (in summer)! I suspect that road may be subjective is this case :) -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 112 days http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:33:51 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:33:51 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222055008.2705.qmail-rKdozF2cvCevuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43AAFF9F.90708@georgetown.wehave.net> Christopher Charles wrote: > If you are not young and not white you definitely will > not fit in! Strange comment. Perhaps true in some industries but in IT??? I work with a mixture of people from asia, middle east and eastern/western europe. I don't believe there is any dominant group. The age balance may lean slightly towards the 45 and under crowd but not significantly and I've seen no evidence of discrimination in hiring practices. Enthusiasm, intelligence and experience are the key hiring factors IMO. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:34:52 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:34:52 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <20051222192911.GC31927@ettin> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <43AAFDED.5030401@georgetown.wehave.net> <20051222192911.GC31927@ettin> Message-ID: <43AAFFDC.2050401@georgetown.wehave.net> Neil Watson wrote: >>> On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway >>> 109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up >>> to James Bay. >> >> >> Very nice. I didn't realize there were roads up there, I'll have to >> give that a try (in summer)! > > > I suspect that road may be subjective is this case :) You'd be surprised at some of the logging trails that my Mazda has survived ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:49:25 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:49:25 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> Message-ID: <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> If you don't have a Microsoft Certification you can be at a disadvantage. Current Linux job opportunities are Janitor, Dishwasher, Window cleaner, part-time instructor, unpaid programmer, unpaid web administrator. The best opportunities are for the self employed with clients in the area of server/desktop installation, device programming and production, entrepreneurial projects. RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 08:41 -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: > >Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! > > > >Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young > >people! > > > >If you are not young and not white you definitely will > >not fit in! > > That's a bit harsh. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:50:08 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:50:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <20051222192911.GC31927@ettin> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> <43AAFDED.5030401@georgetown.wehave.net> <20051222192911.GC31927@ettin> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 02:26:37PM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: >> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> >>> On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway 109, >>> the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up to James >>> Bay. >> >> Very nice. I didn't realize there were roads up there, I'll have to give >> that a try (in summer)! > > I suspect that road may be subjective is this case :) Actually according to the pictures found by following the links in this thread (for James Bay) it looks like it's a nice blacktop in good condition, and snowploughed in winter too. All 600+km of it. That is impressive. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:57:48 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:57:48 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA8302.1030005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20051222195748.GA2644@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 05:42:10AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Robert Brockway wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > > > >> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and > >> post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, > >> otherwise it could end up as a big post. > > > > Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) > > > > I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you > > don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily > > as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". > > Whenever I hear about that, I have to wonder how Canadian computers > differ from those in other countries.. What's really disgusting is that > at a time when we're short of doctors in this province, immigrant > doctors are driving cabs or flipping burgers! Why isn't there some sort > of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? If all those people really work as accountants, doctors, and other "professional" fields, what happens to those who are already working? It's the same in IT as well. Job security. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 20:07:56 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:07:56 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <50470.207.188.65.194.1135278406.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <5D540528-731C-11DA-834F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <50470.207.188.65.194.1135278406.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <43AB079C.8080408@zen.co.uk> Thats reassuring for me who will not be hiring a car, perhaps I should walk or take some other mode of transport. Paul paul, >> >> >I recently picked up a cab at the corner of Church and Gerrard. I asked >him to take me to the Royal Ontario Museum. "You'll need to give me >directions" he said. On the way over there, he took out a row of plastic >cones next to a construction site. A bunch of construction workers were >closing in on the cab, but fortunately the light changed and we got away. >I should have asked the driver if he had his PhD. > >P. > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 20:15:00 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:15:00 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AAFF9F.90708-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43AAFF9F.90708@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <43AB0944.6000701@zen.co.uk> Fraser Campbell wrote: > Christopher Charles wrote: > >> If you are not young and not white you definitely will >> not fit in! > > > Strange comment. Perhaps true in some industries but in IT??? I work > with a mixture of people from asia, middle east and eastern/western > europe. I don't believe there is any dominant group. I think the range of people working on OSS projects is a good reflection of this, something the community is proud of, and should be. > > The age balance may lean slightly towards the 45 and under crowd but > not significantly and I've seen no evidence of discrimination in > hiring practices. > > Enthusiasm, intelligence and experience are the key hiring factors IMO. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 21:54:18 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:54:18 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> <43A86CAE.6030307@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20051222215418.GF26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 09:41:51PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > There are garbage collectors available for C, most notably the Boehm > Demers Weiser conservative garbage collector: > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ > > Also, many C++ programs use a weak form of garbage collection known as > reference counting. > > Why more C/C++ developers (including myself) don't use garbage collection > more often is a bit of a mystery. Probably because for some situations they don't work well, and sometimes you need to control when memory is freed, rather than at some arbitrary time chosen by the garbage collector. It is certainly also possible to write code (arguably badly) in such a way that you are still considering it in use and know where it is, but the garbage collector thinks you are done with it. I prefer to know when things are freed and why. garbage collection is for scripting languages :) Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 21:58:54 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:58:54 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <49CB0BB5-71A7-11DA-959D-00050249A5C8-l+pbsqP8NtUm29vl6s1fFg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <49CB0BB5-71A7-11DA-959D-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> Message-ID: <20051222215854.GG26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 05:23:47PM -0500, phil wrote: > I suspect that the expansion of "skilled enough" causes most of the > problem. I recently saw an ad, insisting on someone with pthreads > and sockets experience on Solaris. It so happens that I *have* done > that, but by specifying the OS, they were prejudicing the search > against people who otherwise had the ability they needed. (And > learning the bits that Solaris does differently isn't a big deal!) Hmm, I think it took me 30 minutes reading man pages in university to figure out socket and pthreads on solaris since I decided they looked nicer than select. My assignment turned out much cleaner in my opinion doing that than it would have with using select to handle multiple connections. Certainly many people when writing up job requirements don't know what is important and what isn't and what skills are transferable between systems that may appear very different. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:01:54 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:01:54 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AA8302.1030005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43AB2252.5010303@iprimus.ca> James Knott wrote: >Robert Brockway wrote: > > >>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: >> >> >> >>>Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and >>>post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, >>>otherwise it could end up as a big post. >>> >>> >>Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) >> >>I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if you >>don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as easily >>as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian experience". >> >> > >Whenever I hear about that, I have to wonder how Canadian computers >differ from those in other countries.. What's really disgusting is that >at a time when we're short of doctors in this province, immigrant >doctors are driving cabs or flipping burgers! Why isn't there some sort >of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? > > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > James That is too logical a concept for ANY level of government that we currently have, to consider. IMHO Clive -- Clive DaSilva Tel : 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Mandrake Linux 10.1 Kernel 2.6.8.1.26mdk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:03:42 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:03:42 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222055008.2705.qmail-rKdozF2cvCevuULXzWHTWIglqE1Y4D90QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: > Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! > > Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young > people! > > If you are not young and not white you definitely will > not fit in! At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:09:25 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:09:25 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB079C.8080408-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <5D540528-731C-11DA-834F-00050249A5C8@millsgarthson.ca> <50470.207.188.65.194.1135278406.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43AB079C.8080408@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AB2415.3080104@iprimus.ca> Hey Paul That does not mean thay you will be safe, one of these guys could always run you over at the crosswalk ... And I'm not kidding, LOL paul sutton wrote: > Thats reassuring for me who will not be hiring a car, perhaps I should > walk or take some other mode of transport. > > Paul > > paul, > >>> >> >> I recently picked up a cab at the corner of Church and Gerrard. I asked >> him to take me to the Royal Ontario Museum. "You'll need to give me >> directions" he said. On the way over there, he took out a row of plastic >> cones next to a construction site. A bunch of construction workers were >> closing in on the cab, but fortunately the light changed and we got >> away. >> I should have asked the driver if he had his PhD. >> >> P. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- Clive DaSilva Tel : 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Mandrake Linux 10.1 Kernel 2.6.8.1.26mdk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:15:57 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:15:57 -0500 Subject: fat32 invisible files In-Reply-To: <20051220223814.GA11559-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <20051220223814.GA11559@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051222221557.GI26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 05:38:14PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > But, but, but... according to "man mount"... > > -o Options are specified with a -o flag followed by a comma sepa- > rated string of options. Some of these options are only useful > when they appear in the /etc/fstab file. The following options > apply to any file system that is being mounted (but not every > file system actually honors them - e.g., the sync option today > has effect only for ext2, ext3 and ufs): The man page is out of date. sync has effect on vfat as well, and that is unfortunate for those with usb flash drives since the sync option will seriously hurt the life time of those drives. sync makes the access much slower when writing and is very bad for flash media. Not bad for magnetic disks just slow. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:18:58 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:18:58 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221418y5aeddda4uf012912035c3e7b8@mail.gmail.com> I'd be interested in hearing other issues that might be relevant for lugites, both here and across Canada, in the upcoming election. A couple of major points for me are on Intellectual Property and Energy solutions. (I don't know 'bout anyone else, but I'd really rather not experience another province wide blackout anytime soon. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:26:34 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh | Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? The Greens I know are Linux users and developers. And active in the party. Or were, last time I talked to them about this (a while ago). According to the media, there has been an internal conflict in the party -- a number of members, including executive members have left. The plank may have originated from these guys. | In particular, | I'd like to know if they have specific facts to back up this policy. What kind of facts? Nothing in the quoted policy depended on any facts. | DRDC | has conducted an extensive research on FOSS and made an 'informed' | recommendation to all GOV departments to 'consider' using FOSS and | commercial software alike, and choose what fits their needs (as opposed to | considering only commercial software, which is what most departments tend | to do). Russell McOrmand is an Ottawa activist and Linux guy http://www.flora.ca/russell/ Apparently he is no longer a member of the Green Party. He has been active in http://www.goslingcommunity.org/ GOSLING = Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments. ================ As far as election issues are concerned, I think that the new copyright legislation that died on the order paper is more important than FOSS use by government. Ditto for the Lawful Access legislation. Neither seem to be visible in this election. Two pages I got to from Russell's stuff: http://www.digital-copyright.ca/about http://www.digital-copyright.ca/election2006/blog -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:36:04 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:36:04 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh > > | Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? > > The Greens I know are Linux users and developers. And active in the > party. Or were, last time I talked to them about this (a while ago). > According to the media, there has been an internal conflict in the > party -- a number of members, including executive members have left. > > The plank may have originated from these guys. That's a surprise. Any idea what conflict was about? > | DRDC > | has conducted an extensive research on FOSS and made an 'informed' > | recommendation to all GOV departments to 'consider' using FOSS and > | commercial software alike, and choose what fits their needs (as opposed to > | considering only commercial software, which is what most departments tend > | to do). > > Russell McOrmand is an Ottawa activist and Linux guy > http://www.flora.ca/russell/ > > Apparently he is no longer a member of the Green Party. He has been > active in > > http://www.goslingcommunity.org/ > > GOSLING = Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments. Also a surprise. Russell's non-partisan stance, and his amazing ability for making people think, was instrumental in getting me to vote last year. Had no idea he was a Green. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:41:46 2005 From: pdirezze-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul DiRezze) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:41:46 -0500 Subject: Thanks folks In-Reply-To: <90E88EF1-6110-4239-991B-9C59E1DAC5B5-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <90E88EF1-6110-4239-991B-9C59E1DAC5B5@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43AB2BAA.8010300@rogers.com> I just wanted to pass along my best wishes to this list and to say thanks for letting me lurk and learn. You rock folks. paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:49:37 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:49:37 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222083547.B25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <43AB2D81.6060703@rogers.com> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >> The purpose of this trip is cultural exchange. While in Canada I would >> like to get to a few LUG meetings, plus do stuff that I can't do over >> here, I like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian >> football games, or perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially >> I will be able to experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of >> the last great wilderness areas on Earth, >> > Lofty goals. the great wilderness start about 500-800 km from Toronto and there is no real way to get there. I didn't realize North York was that far away! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:50:12 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:50:12 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> Message-ID: <43AB2DA4.2060603@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >> Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! >> >> Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >> people! >> >> If you are not young and not white you definitely will >> not fit in! > > That's a bit harsh. > Harsh, but for the most part true. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:56:40 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:56:40 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AB2F28.5090009@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Robert Brockway wrote: > >> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: >> >>> Thanks, I have one in pdf on my personal website, will update and >>> post there, and put a link, and perhaps summerise on the list, >>> otherwise it could end up as a big post. >> >> Hi Paul. See you are showing clue already - a big plus :) >> >> I do have a serious reason for posting. Don't get disillusioned if >> you don't find IT work here as easily as you thought you might (or as >> easily as you did at home). Many Canadian companies seek "Canadian >> experience". > > What is Canadian Experience, exactly ? Where do they teach this and at > what level is it required ;-) Well, first you have to be able to play hockey, and play football by Canadian rules. Then comes the dog sled excercises... ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:00:52 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:00:52 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <43AB3024.2000907@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > What are the roads like up there ? I imagine freezing/thawing destroys > them pretty quick and they are not rebuilt every year ? I have driven to Armstrong Ont. (start from Thunder Bay and go north for about 250 Km) on a few occasions. The roads are mainly dirt, rocks gravel, logs that fell off trucks and moose sh*t. Lots of pot holes and during the hot(?) summer months, so much dust, you have to drive with the windows closed. Other than that, it's just like a newly paved road. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:05:39 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:05:39 -0400 (AST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: > What kind of facts? Nothing in the quoted policy depended on any facts. I guess what I was hoping to find is a clear justification that FOSS is better than proprietary software. DRDC developed a report that became the GoC policy on FOSS. This particular policy was based on facts and detailed evaluation and analysis. Hence, the current GoC policy on FOSS is based on fact. Reference: Free and Open Source Software Overview and Preliminary Guidelines for the Government of Canada http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fap-paf/oss-ll/foss-llo/foss-llotb_e.asp Ironically (or not?), the site runs on ASP. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh > > | Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? > > The Greens I know are Linux users and developers. And active in the > party. Or were, last time I talked to them about this (a while ago). > According to the media, there has been an internal conflict in the > party -- a number of members, including executive members have left. > > The plank may have originated from these guys. > > | In particular, > | I'd like to know if they have specific facts to back up this policy. > > What kind of facts? Nothing in the quoted policy depended on any facts. > > > | DRDC > | has conducted an extensive research on FOSS and made an 'informed' > | recommendation to all GOV departments to 'consider' using FOSS and > | commercial software alike, and choose what fits their needs (as opposed to > | considering only commercial software, which is what most departments tend > | to do). > > Russell McOrmand is an Ottawa activist and Linux guy > http://www.flora.ca/russell/ > > Apparently he is no longer a member of the Green Party. He has been > active in > > http://www.goslingcommunity.org/ > > GOSLING = Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments. > > > ================ > > As far as election issues are concerned, I think that the new > copyright legislation that died on the order paper is more important > than FOSS use by government. Ditto for the Lawful Access legislation. > Neither seem to be visible in this election. > > Two pages I got to from Russell's stuff: > > http://www.digital-copyright.ca/about > http://www.digital-copyright.ca/election2006/blog > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:06:11 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:06:11 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222220342.GH26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <43AB3163.4030003@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >> Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! >> >> Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >> people! >> >> If you are not young and not white you definitely will >> not fit in! > > At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the > truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. In fact, age discrimination is so prevelant that the EI people have a special program to help deal with it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:09:50 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:09:50 -0400 (AST) Subject: FOSS and GoC Message-ID: Official Government of Canada docs on FOSS are available at: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fap-paf/oss-ll/oss-ll_e.asp I am familiar only with the DRDC report and will be going through the other documents in the near future. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:16:07 2005 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:16:07 -0500 Subject: OT: Where is the wilderness? (was Re:jobs in Linux / IT) In-Reply-To: <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051222083547.B25573@diamond.ss.org> <200512221312.25842.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <95A6B1A3-FA0D-4F60-85D5-5BBEE312338A@rogers.com> On 22-Dec 05, at 1:12 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On the Quebec side of the border with Ontario, one can take Highway > 109, the northern most paved road in Eastern Canada, all the way up > to James Bay. It would be about 1700 km from Toronto to Chissasibi, > which is at the end of that road on James Bay > . I read a travelogue of someone who drove > up there and it seems like quite an adventure indeed. See here: > . If I recall correctly, there was a 700 > km stretch with no gas stations so most people would have to carry > spare fuel I built that road. In 1973, 1974 I had a summer job as survery crew with Miron, one of the construction companies. Our base camp was at mile 315. The first winter, they had a convoy drive up all together during the winter, just drive across the frozen rivers and lakes, and drop off all the equipments at the various companies' campsites. The first thing they did was build an airstrip on a long, straight section of what was to be road, so food could be delivered and employees could get out from isolation. The objective for the first summer was to complete a road, any quality of road, from one end of the contract to the other, so that the next year's supplies could be driven in. There wasn't much to do, so I learned to play pool. When I went up in March, beginning of the second year, I was sent out to the land rovers to check out what survey equipment we had out there. I climbed into the back of one vehicle to find myself face to face with a bobcat .... one of the managers had hunted it illegally and was storing it in natural deep-freeze Tom Legrady ..... 6 days away from 'old' XMas Shopping photos => http://www.flickr.com/photos/89217343 at N00/ sets/1601047/show -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:48:06 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:48:06 -0500 Subject: FOSS and GoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AB3B36.5030107@telly.org> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >Official Government of Canada docs on FOSS are available at: > >http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fap-paf/oss-ll/oss-ll_e.asp > > Thanks for the link, as well as the irony of it being an ASP. :-) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:59:05 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:59:05 -0500 Subject: Happy Holidays to all! Message-ID: <43AB3DC9.4020902@telly.org> In lieu of one of those dumb e-cards, I offer to everyone, once again, greetings in the form of source code: http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/91q4/flopbl.html - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 00:46:06 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:46:06 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >I guess what I was hoping to find is a clear justification that FOSS is better than proprietary software. > The problem with this is that you can't totally justify a position like this on financial or other empirical means. It's a matter of philosophy, based on a vision of society and beliefs in the roots of human nature. This isn't just a matter of Linux versus Windows or MS-SQL-versus MySQL, it's a matter of fundamental approaches to the role of technology in the progress of society. At the root of this are fundamental philosophical conflicts whether innovation is (or should be) based on greed or a desire for social progress. Karl Marx versus Ayn Rand, three rounds, no submissions.... It's one thing to ask whether one particular circumstance can be better served by FOSS or proprietary, and I agree that neither approach is a best fit in all cases. It's quite another to define a social direction by favouring one approach to be default as a matter of public policy. >DRDC developed a report that became the GoC policy on FOSS. This particular policy was based on facts and detailed evaluation and analysis. Hence, the current GoC policy on FOSS is based on fact. > > Only to a point. This is from Treasury Board, which means that minimizing cost is an absolute key factor. Other factors, such as job creation or international competitiveness or universal access, are introduced by politicians not bureaucrats and may not have been part of this evaluation. The staff that make such reports are given specific frames of reference and build upon those. There are facts and research in use, to be sure, but they're layered on top of core premises that may be as much based on religion as anything else. The FSF maintains that the big differences between the "open source" and "free software" movements is that the former stresses practical benefits of FOSS while the latter maintains that it's not just practical but also the ethical way to do things. Bureaucrats handle the practical and leave it to politicians to handle the ethics. Trying to justify ethical issues based on economics or measured facts is usually an exercise in futility. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 00:50:47 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:50:47 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB2F28.5090009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AB2F28.5090009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43AB49E7.7030007@istop.com> James Knott wrote: > Peter wrote: > >> What is Canadian Experience, exactly ? Where do they teach this and at >> what level is it required ;-) >> > > Well, first you have to be able to play hockey, and play football by > Canadian rules. Then comes the dog sled excercises... ;-) However defined or rather undefined that term is, it does have something common with reality. It obviously says something about that one is supposed to have some understanding of social background of workplace and living in Canada. I agree that some, not necessarily subtle differences between living and working in this country and other places do exist. Thats, btw, a part of mine 10-years "Canadian experience". However, and thats the clue of my letter, these differences are certainly not always positive. A truly open society should not use that argument about the need to posses a "Canadian experience". I will give a drastic example. Lets imagine that you live 20-30 years ago in a communist country, let say USSR. There one could not get a responsible work, or even a managerial position, or a position that makes one visible in the media let say, without first knowing what "being a trusted communist" means, or if you prefer, had "Soviet experience" ;) zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 01:26:42 2005 From: zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:26:42 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <1135280965.5868.3.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > If you don't have a Microsoft Certification you can be at a > disadvantage. You are probably right. Just a day ago I met with a person who owns a medium-size company, a sort of friend. He asks: didn't you think about getting MS certification? Me: No. I know enough Windows to administer it or offer help to others. And if there is a need, I can learn myself. He: But if there is a real problem they (from MS) will not even talk with a someone who is not MS-certified ... Take also into account that getting a certification is rather an expensive and time-wasting process. That it is expensive, I now fully understand ;) zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 01:54:46 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:54:46 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB5252.5090309-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221754i5d08ed52y669efe311ab00c48@mail.gmail.com> > Take also into account that getting a certification is rather an > expensive and time-wasting process. That it is expensive, I now fully > understand ;) Certifications are important for business' - particularly for a recruiting employer's piece of mind, or the service provider's in the case suggested above, an MS tech support situation. In many cases, people are hired by a recruiting team that doesn't have a clue as to what the job actually entails. They simply work off a description of the job written on a piece of paper or two. Certifications tell these types of people that you know "about this much" of the skills/information specific to their needs. I don't think it's a time wasting process; there's some value in getting that piece of paper. Btw - LPI Certs are considerably cheaper than MS Certs, contain much less advertising, and are somewhat more challenging I think. "Whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." I was very surprised to fail (horribly) on my first sample exam (open book with Google even). After that, I resolved to get my LPI's out of principle. It was a humbling experience for a newbie that thought he "knew it all." lol. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:05:54 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:05:54 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB5252.5090309-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> Message-ID: <1135307154.13335.12.camel@spot1.localhost.com> I've pondered this dilemma for many years. My solution has and continues to be to phase Microsoft products out of my life as soon as possible. If a client company stubbornly refuses to drop some area of a MS implementation I seriously rethink my relationship with that company and have often walked away from $$ to avoid having to work with MS products. Sounds tough but my experience has shown this to be the best solution. I have no plans to become MS certified...ever. Life without MS (sounds like a disease) is actually getting easier as time passes due to the evolution of Open source and commercial Linux offerings. I've also learned to omit computers all together in some areas of my life since they only seem to complicate things. Just because a person has a background in computers this does not mean that person has to limit their money making efforts to the computer industry. Sometimes the best solution to a computing problem is to imagine life without the particular application and re-think the problem. RickT On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 20:26 -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > If you don't have a Microsoft Certification you can be at a > > disadvantage. > You are probably right. Just a day ago I met with a person who owns a > medium-size company, a sort of friend. > > He asks: didn't you think about getting MS certification? > > Me: No. I know enough Windows to administer it or offer help to others. > And if there is a need, I can learn myself. > > He: But if there is a real problem they (from MS) will not even talk > with a someone who is not MS-certified ... > > Take also into account that getting a certification is rather an > expensive and time-wasting process. That it is expensive, I now fully > understand ;) > > zb. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:34:07 2005 From: fraser-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:34:07 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <43AB702F.2090709@georgetown.wehave.net> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >>Require federal departments and agencies to transition to open >>source or free software for general applications, and provide free >>tech support to Canadian companies who also use this software. I find the part following the comma quite odd. Why should tax dollars be freely doled out to companies? Not that it doesn't happen every day, but ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:44:57 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:44:57 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AB702F.2090709-eicrhRFjby5dCsDujFhwbypxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB702F.2090709@georgetown.wehave.net> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512221944m30a9188ax22bbb1630796f52f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > >>Require federal departments and agencies to transition to open > >>source or free software for general applications, and provide free > >>tech support to Canadian companies who also use this software. > > I find the part following the comma quite odd. Why should tax dollars > be freely doled out to companies? Not that it doesn't happen every day, > but ... Show them a foss-friendly work environment, where commons based tools exist. Tech support is just as easy as this mailing list. Everyone benefits (except those that'd have to develop the procedures and processes for interacting with NG's. I'd feel for them. Oh wait, they're the parties. No I don't. ;-) In a sense there might be some financial loss through "man-hours", but there's also a significant social gain. I think they used to call it "Customer Service." -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 04:22:20 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:22:20 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, couldn't resist the title. :-) I ran into the nodice.ca Election Talk forums earlier today, and thought about Evan's thread. What do "general users" (the genernal population) know about issues that might be relevant to their online health? It might be a young site, but a little passing the word along could fire things up. There's a few weeks (and a couple debates) left before voters make their final decision... Getting the politicians to acknowledge these issues needs to happen if they're ever to get better. (Not to mention it might be a better place for general politics than the list.) I asked two questions of the forum, about which parties are: - making an issue of Bill C-60 and Bill C-74 - watching out for our online health (the CIPPIC questionaire for the parties) http://www.nodice.ca/etalk/viewtopic.php?t=408 -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 04:41:47 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:41:47 -0500 Subject: sending receiving email on bells sympatico smtp port filtering using evolution Message-ID: http://vger1.dyndns.org/i/evolution-receiving.png http://vger1.dyndns.org/i/evolution-sending.png These are two PNG files of the Linux Evolution email client. I am using Sympatico HSE. In my case it is VDSL, but should work on any Bell Sympatico HSE. I have not tried these settings with ThunderBird. Previously I tried almost every possible SMTP sending combination on Thunderbird, but it would never send email. I could recieve mail okay, just could not send Bell Sympatico email out on Thunderbird. I was having problems with the Sympatico port 25 filtering and Linux email clients. However, these settings seem to work okay with Evolution. (v2.02) I am behind a NAT/Firewall and mail still can be sent and recieved okay now. Alrighty then. Another solution someone recommended was to use SSH and create a SSH tunnel. How does one create a SSH tunnel just for SMTP traffic? I am not going to do that now of course, but it would be good to know as well. /teddy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 04:53:42 2005 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:53:42 +0000 Subject: sending receiving email on Bell Sympatico Message-ID: <1135313622.8997.4.camel@localhost> I noticed that you were using your email address as the user name. On any Sympatico set ups that I have done it was necessary to use the b1xxxxx number. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 05:35:07 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:35:07 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB3163.4030003-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <43AB3163.4030003@rogers.com> Message-ID: <43AB8C8B.5080802@iprimus.ca> James Knott wrote: >Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > >>On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >> >> >>>Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! >>> >>>Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >>>people! >>> >>>If you are not young and not white you definitely will >>>not fit in! >>> >>> >>At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the >>truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. >> >> > >In fact, age discrimination is so prevelant that the EI people have a >special program to help deal with it. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > Any idea how effective this might be for getting the over 45 crowd back into the labour force ?? Just curious -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 05:44:59 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:44:59 -0400 (AST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AB48CE.6000405-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> Message-ID: > >DRDC developed a report that became the GoC policy on FOSS. This particular policy was based on facts and detailed evaluation and analysis. Hence, the current GoC policy on FOSS is based on fact. > > > > > Only to a point. This is from Treasury Board, which means that > minimizing cost is an absolute key factor. Other factors, such as job > creation or international competitiveness or universal access, are > introduced by politicians not bureaucrats and may not have been part of > this evaluation. The staff that make such reports are given specific > frames of reference and build upon those. There are facts and research > in use, to be sure, but they're layered on top of core premises that may > be as much based on religion as anything else. A clarification is due. The above assumption is not the whole truth. First, of all, the report was produced by Chief Information Officer Branch, which basically dictates all IT related stuff that are GoC wide. Second of all, the evaluation was done by DRDC scientists (2, to be more exact). They developed their own evaluation criteria, and they published them in their report. The study took 2 or 3 years. I'll reproduce the criteria here (refer to the report for a description of these items): * Functionality * Cost * Required Support and Maintenance * Reliability * Quality * Ease of Migration for Users * Performance and Scalability * Flexibility and Scalability * User friendliness * Developer Usability * Legal and License Issues * Trustworthiness Granted, a lot of emphasis was given to cost and licencing; however, other criteria were also considered. I understand that there is a difference between the practical value of OSS vs. the philosophy behind FOSS. It is more clear to me now that the GoC policy on OSS is purely a practical consideration, while the Green Party policy is more of a philosophical one. Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 06:01:22 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:01:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <43AA863A.1060206-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football games, or > perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to Make sure you check out curling. :) > experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of the last great > wilderness areas on Earth, Just make sure you do that in summer ;) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 06:26:11 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:26:11 -0500 Subject: AP vs. Router ? Message-ID: <20051223062611.GA4342@node1.opengeometry.net> What is the practical difference or advantage of getting - dedicated wireless Access Point vs. - wireless Router which combines access point, switch, and router ? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 06:34:41 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:34:41 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc@mail.gmail.com> On 12/23/05, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > > > like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football games, or > > perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to > > Make sure you check out curling. > :) Curling's cool - was part of our PhysEd curriculum in Alberta. Still haven't seen the movie "Men with Brooms" (I think it was called that) but I do check out on TV when the opportunity permits. After curling, try a Polarbear Swim. It's quite refreshing. Really. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 07:13:56 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:13:56 +0200 (IST) Subject: fat32 invisible files In-Reply-To: <20051222221557.GI26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <20051220223814.GA11559@waltdnes.org> <20051222221557.GI26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 05:38:14PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: >> But, but, but... according to "man mount"... >> >> -o Options are specified with a -o flag followed by a comma sepa- >> rated string of options. Some of these options are only useful >> when they appear in the /etc/fstab file. The following options >> apply to any file system that is being mounted (but not every >> file system actually honors them - e.g., the sync option today >> has effect only for ext2, ext3 and ufs): > > The man page is out of date. sync has effect on vfat as well, and that > is unfortunate for those with usb flash drives since the sync option > will seriously hurt the life time of those drives. sync makes the > access much slower when writing and is very bad for flash media. Not > bad for magnetic disks just slow. Just use -o noatime with flash disks and use sync without cutting the life. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 07:29:32 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:29:32 +0200 (IST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB49E7.7030007-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AB2F28.5090009@rogers.com> <43AB49E7.7030007@istop.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> Peter wrote: >> >>> What is Canadian Experience, exactly ? Where do they teach this and at >>> what level is it required ;-) >>> >> >> Well, first you have to be able to play hockey, and play football by >> Canadian rules. Then comes the dog sled excercises... ;-) Surely there must be some equivalence exams ? Practicing with dogsleds in the sand is too hard on the camels ;-) > However defined or rather undefined that term is, it does have something > common with reality. It obviously says something about that one is supposed > to have some understanding of social background of workplace and living in > Canada. I agree that some, not necessarily subtle differences between living > and working in this country and other places do exist. Thats, btw, a part of > mine 10-years "Canadian experience". You know that elsewhere they do *not* ask about 'local experience'. Instead, they shortchange as a 'newcomer tax'. By the time you know the ropes you also know about how much you were off the mark in the beginning... As to gulag experience, I think I know where you are coming from. I preferred to stay out of that crowd at the time. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 07:30:47 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 02:30:47 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512222330w26fe4122k42da91726bbf13fa@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/22/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh > > > > | Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? > > > > The Greens I know are Linux users and developers. And active in the > > party. Or were, last time I talked to them about this (a while ago). > > According to the media, there has been an internal conflict in the > > party -- a number of members, including executive members have left. I finally found a nutshell version of what happened at http://nodice.ca/etalk/viewtopic.php?t=330 I had to respond to it - this is disturbing after seeing the hopeful and empowered Green Party from last year. -- Why the Greens Aren't Very Green Obey your leader But most disturbing to many inside the party, is Harris's authoritarian style. Many people vote Green because they assume it is more grass roots, more democratic, than the others. They would be shocked to know that the party is the most top down of any of the federal parties - and that Harris simply ignores decisions that he doesn't agree with. The situation is so bad that half of the party's governing council have resigned in protest or been forced out in the past eight months. Harris has not moved to replace them because, argue the dissidents, he is happy with the remaining council members who tend to support him and he does not want to risk having more people turn into troublesome dissidents. At the 2004 AGM, members passed several constitutional amendments which were supposed to be ratified by a party-wide vote within six months. Fifteen months later, it hasn't happened and there are no plans to hold a vote. The 2005 AGM voted to have a policy convention this fall in anticipation of a federal election. Harris simply declined to hold one, then rescheduled it for February. Now that convention has been postponed. Recently, a party-wide binding vote was taken on the sensitive issue of revenue sharing. Members voted overwhelmingly for an option that would divide up party revenue equally between local riding associations, provincial Green Parties and the national party. Harris was strongly opposed to this option, and recently announced that the issue was more complicated than he thought and he was not going to adhere to the members' wishes. None of this would be tolerated for a minute in any of the other federal parties. And none would simply allow half the seats on their governing council to go unfilled for months. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 07:38:25 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:38:25 +0200 (IST) Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <1135307154.13335.12.camel-GVHZqC5MSyVSXSDylEipykEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> <1135307154.13335.12.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > I've pondered this dilemma for many years. My solution has and continues > to be to phase Microsoft products out of my life as soon as possible. If > a client company stubbornly refuses to drop some area of a MS > implementation I seriously rethink my relationship with that company and > have often walked away from $$ to avoid having to work with MS products. > Sounds tough but my experience has shown this to be the best solution. I > have no plans to become MS certified...ever. Life without MS (sounds > like a disease) is actually getting easier as time passes due to the > evolution of Open source and commercial Linux offerings. I've also > learned to omit computers all together in some areas of my life since > they only seem to complicate things. Just because a person has a > background in computers this does not mean that person has to limit > their money making efforts to the computer industry. Sometimes the best > solution to a computing problem is to imagine life without the > particular application and re-think the problem. This is not the burger-flipping option, is it ? Cutting computers out is seldom a solution imho, but 'using computers' very rarely implies something that resembles a PC. Advantage: no m$ inside. I am talking about embedded systems. Please consider this seriously. Embedded computers and automatons outnumber PCs by something like 20:1 at a net value that is not necessarily lower than the PC's even in the lowliest cases (due to aggregate value). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 10:42:02 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:42:02 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB8C8B.5080802-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <43AB3163.4030003@rogers.com> <43AB8C8B.5080802@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <43ABD47A.5010901@rogers.com> Clive DaSilva wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >> >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >>> >>>> Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! >>>> >>>> Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >>>> people! >>>> >>>> If you are not young and not white you definitely will >>>> not fit in! >>>> >>> At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the >>> truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. >>> >> >> In fact, age discrimination is so prevelant that the EI people have a >> special program to help deal with it. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> >> > Any idea how effective this might be for getting the over 45 crowd back > into the labour force ?? > > Just curious Sorry, no. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 11:24:11 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:24:11 +0000 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB5252.5090309-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> Message-ID: <43ABDE5B.7050504@zen.co.uk> Same here. I can install windows pretty well with no manuals, if I need help I can use the net, or usergroups after reading manuals, or ask on a usergroup for suggestions for manuals, then if I get stuck as for help based on the book I have, thing is like most people, I guess, friends can back this up, or this has been demonstrated, but employers demand paper proof, to me just because you have an MSCE, may not mena you can do certain things, well. I prefer >Me: No. I know enough Windows to administer it or offer help to others. And if there is a need, I can learn myself. Saying that, I remember fixing a friends computer a while back, a virus had trashed the networking for the DHCP, firstly I checked the hardware was connected ok, then I booted knoppix to see if that could pick up the internet properly, it did, so phoning the help line I said I had done this, saving loads of time. They could not help and said call MS, so we did, so again I told the MS guy I had booted knoppix and that worked fine, he then talked me through deleting some socks entry from the registry and everything was fine/ youi could always say your linux certified, if they ask, they would then do anything to avoid the risk of you dumping Windows in favour of something better. Paul > > > > He: But if there is a real problem they (from MS) will not even talk > with a someone who is not MS-certified ... Good point, plus there is nothing better than experinece of actually doing something yourself adn solving the problems on your own, which is what I guess employers should be looking for, that ability, > > Take also into account that getting a certification is rather an > expensive and time-wasting process. That it is expensive, I now fully > understand ;) > > zb. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 11:26:04 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:26:04 +0000 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43ABDECC.3000708@zen.co.uk> Thats at least one sport we brits seem good at esp in the Olympics, and it seems scotland is very good at elephant polo, despite there being very few wild elephants in scotland, acutally none :-), hopefully I will getr the chance to check these things out. > >Curling's cool - was part of our PhysEd curriculum in Alberta. Still >haven't seen the movie "Men with Brooms" (I think it was called that) >but I do check out on TV when the opportunity permits. > >After curling, try a Polarbear Swim. It's quite refreshing. Really. ;-) > >-- >Scott Elcomb >psema4.gotdns.com > >'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source >code' - Unknown >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 11:45:34 2005 From: dcbour-Uj1Tbf34OBsy5HIR1wJiBuOEVfOsBSGQ at public.gmane.org (Dave Bour) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 06:45:34 -0500 Subject: AP vs. Router ? Message-ID: 1 may already have a router 2 ability to put it in a better location for best transmission Dave Bour Desktop Solution Center 905.381.0077 dcbour at desktopsolutioncenter.ca For those who just want it to work... Giving you complete IT peace of mind. (Sent via Blackberry) PIN 30073084 (as of May 9,2005) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org Sent: Fri Dec 23 01:26:11 2005 Subject: [TLUG]: AP vs. Router ? What is the practical difference or advantage of getting - dedicated wireless Access Point vs. - wireless Router which combines access point, switch, and router ? -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 13:11:41 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:11:41 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> Message-ID: <43ABF78D.4050104@telly.org> Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: >Second of all, the evaluation was done by DRDC scientists (2, to be more >exact). They developed their own evaluation criteria, and they published >them in their report. The study took 2 or 3 years. I'll reproduce the >criteria here (refer to the report for a description of these items): > >* Functionality >* Cost >* Required Support and Maintenance >* Reliability >* Quality >* Ease of Migration for Users >* Performance and Scalability >* Flexibility and Scalability >* User friendliness >* Developer Usability >* Legal and License Issues >* Trustworthiness > > Thanks for the information, Tony. I agree that the criteria above is fairly thorough, I'll read the report before judging whether the researchers did them justice :-). I also hope the report takes into account the pace at which OSS deficiencies are being addressed. Most of the above criteria can indeed be researched and measured, but not all. While "reliability" and "quality" can be measured, "trustworthiness" is by nature more subjective because trust is an emotion, not a measurable attribute. >I understand that there is a difference between the practical value of OSS vs. the philosophy behind FOSS. It is more clear to me now that the GoC policy on OSS is purely a practical consideration, while the Green Party policy is more of a philosophical one. > > And on this we're in violent agreement. Have a good holiday, - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 18:35:47 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:35:47 -0500 Subject: compiling xmas.c In-Reply-To: <43ABF78D.4050104-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> <43ABF78D.4050104@telly.org> Message-ID: <43AC4383.6000004@zen.co.uk> I am trying to compile xmas.c when i type cc -c xmas.c I get the following error, xmas.c: In function 'main': xmas.c:57: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'exit' xmas.c:58:2: warning: no newline at end o Given that the most I have every compiled is hello world, plus perhaps recopiling a kernel (years ago that was), Iam not exactly an expert in c output from uname -a is as follows Linux duron1600 2.6.14-kanotix-6 #1 PREEMPT Thu Dec 15 17:42:57 CET 2005 i686 GNU/Linux hope this helps Merry Christmas Also my router managed to disconnect from the net, when I rebooted from windows to linux to try this program out, I ended up having to turn the router off, and the on again to fix, is this an indication of hardware problems, my router is not on 24/7, but only on when the computer is on. thanks Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:04:01 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:04:01 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> <1135307154.13335.12.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <1135346641.4422.13.camel@spot1.localhost.com> You're absolutely right. I use many 'embedded' devices regularly which do not involve M$. If I notice that M$ is somehow involved I keep shopping. The consumer has the power to create change by their choices in the market place. I have even researched companies root ownerships when making some decisions. If you look closely there are many companies other than M$ which provide 'mission critical' software/devices which work reliably. The media has made M$ into a 'fishbowl' due to their success however the media's primary motivation is to sell soap. I use this to my advantage. I don't plan on 'flippin' burgers anytime soon but whats wrong with a student taking any job he/she can while learning IT? Most people in good jobs had to do really bad jobs while in College or University. RickT On Fri, 2005-12-23 at 09:38 +0200, Peter wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > > > I've pondered this dilemma for many years. My solution has and continues > > to be to phase Microsoft products out of my life as soon as possible. If > > a client company stubbornly refuses to drop some area of a MS > > implementation I seriously rethink my relationship with that company and > > have often walked away from $$ to avoid having to work with MS products. > > Sounds tough but my experience has shown this to be the best solution. I > > have no plans to become MS certified...ever. Life without MS (sounds > > like a disease) is actually getting easier as time passes due to the > > evolution of Open source and commercial Linux offerings. I've also > > learned to omit computers all together in some areas of my life since > > they only seem to complicate things. Just because a person has a > > background in computers this does not mean that person has to limit > > their money making efforts to the computer industry. Sometimes the best > > solution to a computing problem is to imagine life without the > > particular application and re-think the problem. > > This is not the burger-flipping option, is it ? Cutting computers out is > seldom a solution imho, but 'using computers' very rarely implies > something that resembles a PC. Advantage: no m$ inside. I am talking > about embedded systems. Please consider this seriously. Embedded > computers and automatons outnumber PCs by something like 20:1 at a net > value that is not necessarily lower than the PC's even in the lowliest > cases (due to aggregate value). > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:19:08 2005 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkm4kRHVhTciCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Rick Tomaschuk) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:19:08 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: IBM gets closer to Linux partners, if that's possible] Message-ID: <1135347548.4422.14.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Forwarded message below. RickT http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "NW on Linux" Subject: IBM gets closer to Linux partners, if that's possible Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:30:00 -0600 Size: 8359 URL: From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:20:51 2005 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:20:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43ABF78D.4050104-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> <43ABF78D.4050104@telly.org> Message-ID: <50396.207.188.65.194.1135347651.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Most of the above criteria can indeed be researched and measured, but > not all. While "reliability" and "quality" can be measured, > "trustworthiness" is by nature more subjective because trust is an > emotion, not a measurable attribute. > Trustworthiness may refer to the ability to detect 'back doors' and 'trojan horses' in the code. With Open Software, that's relatively easy to do. One of the many reasons I don't use Microsoft software is that I have no idea what the damn stuff is communicating to Redmond. That's completely unacceptable for software used in a government environment. I believe this was a major factor in the acceptance of Open Software in Europe and Brazil. So in this context I would say that trustworthiness is measurable. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Professor Emeritus, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Ryerson University 416-465-3007 www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 15:11:13 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:11:13 -0500 Subject: Seneca College's INTERNET SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATION (ISA) course Message-ID: <43AC1391.3000602@pppoe.ca> Does anyone know or have experience of this program? http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/ISA.html Program Eligibility: Applicants must have a degree from an accredited university or a college diploma in an Information Technology discipline or equivalent work experience Graduates work as Linux/Unix systems administrators, web developers, network technicians and security officers. Graduates of this program would be excellent candidates for taking a Linux certification exam (for more information refer to http://www.linuxcertification.org). This is the SAIR GNU Linux certification. I seldom hear of SAIR these days. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 15:27:02 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 23 Dec 2005 10:27:02 -0500 Subject: compiling xmas.c In-Reply-To: <43AC4383.6000004-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <43AB48CE.6000405@telly.org> <43ABF78D.4050104@telly.org> <43AC4383.6000004@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: Paul Sutton writes: > when i type cc -c xmas.c I get the following error, You could also get away with: make xmas > xmas.c: In function 'main': > xmas.c:57: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function > 'exit' > xmas.c:58:2: warning: no newline at end o > > output from uname -a is as follows > Linux duron1600 2.6.14-kanotix-6 #1 PREEMPT Thu Dec 15 17:42:57 CET 2005 i686 > GNU/Linux I just did the above (works out to 'cc xmas.c -o xmas') on: 2.4.20-28.7 (RH 7.x) 2.6.10-5-386 (ubuntu 5.04) and it works. To get rid of those warnings, change 'exit' to 'return' and put a newline on the last line of the file (just go to the end and hit 'enter'). > Also my router managed to disconnect from the net, when I rebooted from > windows to linux to try this program out, I ended up having to turn the > router off, and the on again to fix, is this an indication of hardware > problems, my router is not on 24/7, but only on when the computer is on. You've downloaded the xmas program and incurred the wrath of the ghost of hardware past. There shouldn't be any relationship between your computer going up and down and the router (unless you left some details out). Does your router automatically reconnect when the connection goes down? Or is it possible that the router is dhcp server, too, and only giving out info to Windows for some reason? Regards, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 16:14:44 2005 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 23 Dec 2005 11:14:44 -0500 Subject: Seneca College's INTERNET SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATION (ISA) course In-Reply-To: <43AC1391.3000602-D1t3LT1mScs@public.gmane.org> References: <43AC1391.3000602@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: Meng Cheah writes: > Does anyone know or have experience of this program? > > http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/ISA.html Someone at Starnix took it. We found him through the placement people at Seneca. (Yes, we're a Linux company). > Graduates of this program would be excellent candidates for taking a Linux > certification exam (for more information refer to > http://www.linuxcertification.org). > > This is the SAIR GNU Linux certification. > I seldom hear of SAIR these days. Well, LPI knows a bunch of their instructors and admins and they are very supportive of LPI. I'm sure that this is an oversight. HTH, -- g. matthew rice starnix, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 16:32:55 2005 From: meng-D1t3LT1mScs at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:32:55 -0500 Subject: Seneca College's INTERNET SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATION (ISA) course In-Reply-To: References: <43AC1391.3000602@pppoe.ca> Message-ID: <43AC26B7.7090405@pppoe.ca> G. Matthew Rice wrote: > Meng Cheah writes: > >>Does anyone know or have experience of this program? >> >>http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/ISA.html > > > Someone at Starnix took it. We found him through the placement people at > Seneca. (Yes, we're a Linux company). > > > >>Graduates of this program would be excellent candidates for taking a Linux >>certification exam (for more information refer to >>http://www.linuxcertification.org). >> >>This is the SAIR GNU Linux certification. >>I seldom hear of SAIR these days. > > > Well, LPI knows a bunch of their instructors and admins and they are very > supportive of LPI. I'm sure that this is an oversight. > > HTH, Thanks, Matt. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 18:32:03 2005 From: nyetwork-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Leigh Honeywell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:32:03 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <43AADF1D.70705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: <17c359fc0512231032j57964aedr965e1631de110ae8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Other notes: The Liberal site uses Microsoft ASP to run its "find your > candidate" facility, the Conservatives use PHP and the NDP site uses > Javascript. > > - Evan The backend of the NDP site is definitely not written in Javascript ;-) It's running on Linux / Apache 1.3.4. The bulk of the site is a custom-developped PHP app, though they used to run an open-source package named ActionApps (.org) as provided by Web Networks. There is a serious interest in the party about the ideals of Open Source, and one of my projects in the new year is going to be getting an Open Source Caucus started in the party in the same way as there is currently a Socialist Caucus and a Women's Caucus. Anyone who's interested please feel free to email me :-) -Leigh (Former ONDY Youth Exec) -- Leigh Honeywell http://hypatia.ca ============ nyetwork group http://nyetwork.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 19:21:47 2005 From: john-Z7w/En0MP3xWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:21:47 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512221418y5aeddda4uf012912035c3e7b8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512221418y5aeddda4uf012912035c3e7b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051223192147.GA4875@lupus.perlwolf.com> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 05:18:58PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > ... (I don't know 'bout anyone else, but I'd really > rather not experience another province wide blackout anytime soon. ;-) The easiest way to assure that goal for the next or two would be to move to Alberta. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 20:58:28 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:58:28 -0500 Subject: fat32 invisible files In-Reply-To: References: <200512201629.19369.jason@detachednetworks.ca> <20051220223814.GA11559@waltdnes.org> <20051222221557.GI26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051223205828.GJ26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:13:56AM +0200, Peter wrote: > Just use -o noatime with flash disks and use sync without cutting the > life. No sync actually seems to cause it to rewrite the FAT table every since time a block is written to the filesystem. noatime makes sense on filesystems that have the concept of atime, which FAT does not. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 20:58:50 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:58:50 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512231558.52026.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 22, 2005 17:36, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On 12/22/05, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Tony Abou-Assaleh > > | > > | Is anyone here involved in some way with the Green Party? > > > > The Greens I know are Linux users and developers. And active in > > the party. Or were, last time I talked to them about this (a > > while ago). According to the media, there has been an internal > > conflict in the party -- a number of members, including executive > > members have left. > > > > The plank may have originated from these guys. > > That's a surprise. Any idea what conflict was about? [snip] My take on it is that it is a battle of the traditional granola crunching, save the whales crowd vs. the libertarians who joined (took over?) the party in the last few years. Jim Harris, who is a former Progressive Conservative by the way, gave a recent speech in St. John's, Newfoundland proposing a ban on the seal hunt as a sop to the former at the expense of alienating the latter. I cannot imagine it had anything to do with shoring up support in Newfoundland seeing as Newfoundlanders, despite being some of the most generous and tolerant people I have ever met, generally don't appreciate bleeding heart CFAs (Come From Aways) telling them that something they view as part of their traditions is immoral and that it should be banned. I saw a clip on the news recently about how some of the party executive had left the Greens in protest over Harris' purported dictatorial style. One was running for the NDP, which is more in line with what I have always perceived Green to represent. Some of them gave begrudging credit to Harris for following through on his promise to run candidates in all 308 ridings. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:02:24 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:02:24 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051221204440.GA4065-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051223210224.GK26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:44:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > I bought > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip Well that one should work with linux from what I have read. > - Airlink AWLL3026 USB -- ZyDAS 1211 chip (cheap clipped on plastic case) Not a clue. > Manufacturer changed the chipset on me. So, what I got wasn't what > others reported, and it took some time/effort before I could locate > source-code drivers. Anyways, it's kind of cool to see USB key booting > off, and doing X-terminal session through USB wireless. :-) That is why there are always warnings to check the revision on wireless adapters (and non wireless for that matter). A revision change can include a completely different chipset. I think it's dirty marketing, but some companies think it is a valid way to get around having to make new boxes, new manuals, and such, and it even gets around the comapnies that have a policy saying 'you must use device x on these machines so we can use standard drivers on all the boxes', which of course then breaks because the drivers are not the same and the old standard image won't work on a new box with the new revision. I liked that at least 3com put a letter at the end of their nic models when they changed chipsets, like 3c905A, 3c905B, and 3c905C. > But, I'm getting only 11Mbit (802.11b), when both end of Ad-Hoc wireless > is 54Mbit (802.11g). They're bloody 2m apart! > > I would like to acknowledge > - Bill Thanis (TLUG) for lending me his very expensive Lucent > Orinoco Gold PCMCIAs and PCI-to-PCMCIA adapter. > - Jeff Lorentz (BGLUG) for his most informative website. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:08:21 2005 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:08:21 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <200512191655.56617.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051223210821.GL26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 04:55:56PM -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > Marc Lijour just mentioned some hardware that I am interested in knowing > more about. Personal Video recorders. I missed the presentation at Tlug > that Marc mentioned. > > I just installed a Home theater system and am now interested in recording > prog's from my Hi-def cable box. I gather the Rogers PVR can only record > to its hard drive, no DVD transfer, maybe it is only a low res recorder > also. The many PVR's that are available at twice the price have DVD > capability but can't handle the hi-def signal, only an NTSC analog one. Rogers has a hi-def PVR which I belive is the only such device available in canada from any of the providers. I highly doubt it will let you get the recordings off it though. > Can anyone point me to a source of information on the subject? I think it > might require a lot of work to discuss it and besides it is well off-topic, > not that it matters a lot from what I see. :-) > > What I have found so far has not been helpful. I would love to know if it is possible with any available hardware to get HD from cable, or if only the digital box can do that at this time. I know you can do it off the air, although I think city tv is the only available channel so far in toronto. Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:18:34 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:18:34 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB8C8B.5080802-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>; from cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 12:35:07AM -0500 References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <43AB3163.4030003@rogers.com> <43AB8C8B.5080802@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <20051223161834.G25573@diamond.ss.org> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 12:35:07AM -0500, Clive DaSilva wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > >Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > > >>On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! > >>> > >>>Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young > >>>people! > >>> > >>>If you are not young and not white you definitely will > >>>not fit in! > >>> > >>> > >>At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the > >>truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. > >> > >> > > > >In fact, age discrimination is so prevelant that the EI people have a > >special program to help deal with it. > >-- > > > > > Any idea how effective this might be for getting the over 45 crowd back > into the labour force ?? > > Just curious > My opinion is very little. They are actually target younger unskilled people not older people with many these programs. Age discrimation occurs more against people in their late teens and early twentys when they have 'no experience'. Most programs are glorified slave labour (volunteer work for no pay to gain experience) in jobs that require little to no skills. The programs were generally created because the baby boomers kids hit the job market about the time the "Great Recession" hit in 2000. There are some programs for training but if you know what a keyboard looks like you are overqualified for such programs and EI will not pay for you taking them and most likely you won't get anything out of them anyway. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:19:45 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:19:45 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: ; from rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 01:01:22AM -0500 References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051223161945.H25573@diamond.ss.org> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 01:01:22AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > > > like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football games, or > > perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to > > Make sure you check out curling. > :) > > > experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of the last great > > wilderness areas on Earth, > > Just make sure you do that in summer ;) Check it out between April and May. After that is deer and black fly season. Bill -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:24:54 2005 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:24:54 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512231624.55176.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> On December 23, 2005 01:01, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > > like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football > > games, or perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I > > will be able to > > Make sure you check out curling. > > :) > : > > experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of the last > > great wilderness areas on Earth, > > Just make sure you do that in summer ;) Depending on where in Canada you are, that could mean hibernating anywhere from four to eight months a year so that is not much of an option for most people. The key is dressing appropriately for the conditions. Ice fishing is loads of fun as is hunting after the snow flies. Of course there are many other winter activities, skiing, snowboarding, snowshoeing, snowmobiling. I have always wanted to try winter camping. Maybe I can combine that with a wabbit hunt sometime. -- Regards, Clifford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 21:26:41 2005 From: billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:26:41 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:38:25AM +0200 References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> <1135307154.13335.12.camel@spot1.localhost.com> Message-ID: <20051223162641.I25573@diamond.ss.org> These are the first computers I started with as well. Embedded systems are severley under appreciated in the computing world. Many problems that can be solved with a embedded computer is blown up to require enterprise level solutions. Bill > This is not the burger-flipping option, is it ? Cutting computers out is > seldom a solution imho, but 'using computers' very rarely implies > something that resembles a PC. Advantage: no m$ inside. I am talking > about embedded systems. Please consider this seriously. Embedded > computers and automatons outnumber PCs by something like 20:1 at a net > value that is not necessarily lower than the PC's even in the lowliest > cases (due to aggregate value). > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 22:40:46 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:40:46 +0000 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512231440x1d945dd8h10a696a0500a9e11@mail.gmail.com> On 12/23/05, Scott Elcomb wrote: > After curling, try a Polarbear Swim. It's quite refreshing. Really. ;-) I've doused (bucket of water while in my shorts in the snow).. that's a fascinating experience. .. standing out in the middle of winter mostly naked.. and steaming. =) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 22:57:02 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:57:02 -0500 Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: <200512231558.52026.clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> <99a6c38f0512221436r1f9bc415oe3f7b39eb91ed58d@mail.gmail.com> <200512231558.52026.clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512231457y9b4a27g5a2b8b23ee096477@mail.gmail.com> ... > I saw a clip on the news recently about how some of the party > executive had left the Greens in protest over Harris' purported > dictatorial style. One was running for the NDP, which is more in line > with what I have always perceived Green to represent. Some of them > gave begrudging credit to Harris for following through on his promise > to run candidates in all 308 ridings. Covering all the ridings was quite a feat, no doubt, but I don't think alienating your team is a good way to lead an organization. That really bugs me. After seeing a couple posts here about the NDP's possible interest in FOSS and related topics, I asked on the NDP site for their take (when the "cease-fire" ends) on the CIPPIC's questions at http://www.cippic.ca/en/projects-cases/election-2006/ None of the major parties have responded to it yet, so I'll bug the rest after Christmas. :) Anybody doing any non-partisan, spreading the word to "non-geeks" about what will otherwise be non-issues -again- in this election? Want to combine efforts? Lemme know. :) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 23:40:20 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:40:20 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <43ABDECC.3000708-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc@mail.gmail.com> <43ABDECC.3000708@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AC8AE4.3080905@rogers.com> paul sutton wrote: > Thats at least one sport we brits seem good at esp in the Olympics, and > it seems scotland is very good at elephant polo, despite there being > very few wild elephants in scotland, acutally none > :-), hopefully I will getr the chance to check these things out. As I understand it, they can't stand bagpipe "music". ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 23:40:04 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:40:04 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051223210224.GK26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051223210224.GK26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20051223234004.GA5873@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 04:02:24PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:44:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > > I bought > > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip > > Well that one should work with linux from what I have read. That's what I thought when I bought it. All the articles said 2500 chipset, but they were in fact referring to Ralink 2560 chip. Ralink 2561 is proprietary binary only. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 23:43:53 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:43:53 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <43AC8AE4.3080905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <99a6c38f0512222234q74d621c4o968db92fffa6bccc@mail.gmail.com> <43ABDECC.3000708@zen.co.uk> <43AC8AE4.3080905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512231543i25cad6c0qa1056c197d376b24@mail.gmail.com> On 12/23/05, James Knott wrote: > paul sutton wrote: > > Thats at least one sport we brits seem good at esp in the Olympics, and > > it seems scotland is very good at elephant polo, despite there being > > very few wild elephants in scotland, acutally none > > :-), hopefully I will getr the chance to check these things out. > > As I understand it, they can't stand bagpipe "music". ;-) LOL! -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com 'I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code' - Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 23:58:06 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:58:06 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: <20051223161945.H25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> <20051223161945.H25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <43AC8F0E.50504@rogers.com> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 01:01:22AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: >> >>> like NFL so may be able to get to NFL games, or Canadian football games, or >>> perhaps even look at going to lacrosse, essentially I will be able to >> Make sure you check out curling. >> :) >> >>> experience Canadian culture, as well as see some of the last great >>> wilderness areas on Earth, >> Just make sure you do that in summer ;) > > Check it out between April and May. After that is deer and black fly season. Then again, if he's into hunting, he can always bring a shot gun and go after the mosquitoes. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 01:49:57 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:49:57 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051223234004.GA5873-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051223210224.GK26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051223234004.GA5873@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/05, William Park wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 04:02:24PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:44:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > > > I bought > > > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip > > > > Well that one should work with linux from what I have read. > > That's what I thought when I bought it. All the articles said 2500 > chipset, but they were in fact referring to Ralink 2560 chip. Ralink > 2561 is proprietary binary only. > Earlier in the year, I bought an ASUS WiFi-G card from Tiger Direct for around $30. At the time, I didn't know whether it worked under Linux, but for that price for a G card, I figured it was worth a try. I really wanted this card for my PVR. The card uses a RALINK RT2560F chipset. I went to their website, and was pleasantly surprised to find some Linux drivers for it. The first ones I tried were the binary only ones, and they didn't work at all. The next ones I tried were the open source drivers (I had heard Ralink GPL'd their driver code for these cards). I can not, for the life of me, get the drivers to compile. The README file that comes with them is pretty much illegible. Some distros include these drivers, but I could not find anything that was pre-built for Fedora Core 3. I ended up getting the card working using ndiswrapper, but it was hit and miss, and depended on a particular kernel option (16K stack) which is not default in the Fedora kernels. I gave up eventually, and just used a wired card (and snake the wire up the stairs, much to the chagrin of my wife). I've still got the card, and will give it another go when I have time. It works perfectly fine under that _other_ OS... :-( My $0.02 about Ralink. pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 02:03:10 2005 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:03:10 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051223161834.G25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222220342.GH26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <43AB3163.4030003@rogers.com> <43AB8C8B.5080802@iprimus.ca> <20051223161834.G25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <43ACAC5E.4000900@iprimus.ca> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: >On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 12:35:07AM -0500, Clive DaSilva wrote: > > >>James Knott wrote: >> >> >> >>>Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:50:08PM -0800, Christopher Charles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Employment SUCKS big time in Canada! >>>>> >>>>>Age discrimination rules! Workplaces are full of young >>>>>people! >>>>> >>>>>If you are not young and not white you definitely will >>>>>not fit in! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>At some companies yes. At many others it couldn't be further from the >>>>truth. Canada is very diverse, and so is the job market. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>In fact, age discrimination is so prevelant that the EI people have a >>>special program to help deal with it. >>>-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Any idea how effective this might be for getting the over 45 crowd back >>into the labour force ?? >> >>Just curious >> >> >> >My opinion is very little. They are actually target younger unskilled people not older people with many these programs. Age discrimation occurs more against people in their late teens and early twentys when they have 'no experience'. Most programs are glorified slave labour (volunteer work for no pay to gain experience) in jobs that require little to no skills. > >The programs were generally created because the baby boomers kids hit the job market about the time the "Great Recession" hit in 2000. There are some programs for training but if you know what a keyboard looks like you are overqualified for such programs and EI will not pay for you taking them and most likely you won't get anything out of them anyway. > >Bill > > > Interesting, Bill. Being one of the over 45 crowd, I attended a 3 week workshop given by a group called Ageworks, which is funded by HRDC. It was mostly based on such topics writing resumes to hide tour age, tricking silly HR people into inviting you for an interview, and how to cold call. In my opinion it did nothing for us, as none of the group have gotten jobs since the even ended. Sad situation -- Clive DaSilva Tel : 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Mandrake Linux 10.1 Kernel 2.6.8.1.26mdk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 03:44:11 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:44:11 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051223210224.GK26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051223234004.GA5873@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051224034411.GA2809@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 08:49:57PM -0500, Paul Mora wrote: > On 12/23/05, William Park wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 04:02:24PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:44:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > > I just joined the wireless revolution, and I'm not impressed. > > > > I bought > > > > - Airlink AWLH3026 PCI -- Ralink 2561 chip > > > > > > Well that one should work with linux from what I have read. > > > > That's what I thought when I bought it. All the articles said 2500 > > chipset, but they were in fact referring to Ralink 2560 chip. Ralink > > 2561 is proprietary binary only. > > > > Earlier in the year, I bought an ASUS WiFi-G card from Tiger Direct for > around $30. At the time, I didn't know whether it worked under Linux, but > for that price for a G card, I figured it was worth a try. I really wanted > this card for my PVR. > > The card uses a RALINK RT2560F chipset. I went to their website, and was > pleasantly surprised to find some Linux drivers for it. The first ones I > tried were the binary only ones, and they didn't work at all. The next ones > I tried were the open source drivers (I had heard Ralink GPL'd their driver > code for these cards). I can not, for the life of me, get the drivers to > compile. The README file that comes with them is pretty much illegible. > > Some distros include these drivers, but I could not find anything that was > pre-built for Fedora Core 3. I ended up getting the card working using > ndiswrapper, but it was hit and miss, and depended on a particular kernel > option (16K stack) which is not default in the Fedora kernels. > > I gave up eventually, and just used a wired card (and snake the wire up the > stairs, much to the chagrin of my wife). I've still got the card, and will > give it another go when I have time. It works perfectly fine under that > _other_ OS... :-( If 'lspci' says 1814:0301, then you are in luck. Open source driver continues on from the manufacturer's source code, so it's more recent and works better. URLs are - http://www.ralinktech.com/supp-1.htm - http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Open source driver requires 2.6.13+ kernel, and supports - 0x0101 (RT2400 chipset for 802.11b) and - 0x0201 (RT2500 chipset for 802.11g) But, not 0x0301 which is what I got. For those of you with Ralink 2561, here is the source package that I managed to get from the web: - http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/samples/rt2561STA_247_src.tar.bz2 Ralink won't release the code until Jan 2006 (well, that's what they said to me). After playing with wireless a bit... where's the beef? There are WEP and WPA, but I know 2 people (in LUGs) who can crack them in 15min. Then, I find that Ad-Hoc specification limits to 11Mbit. Then, I discover everything is half-duplex. I swear, my old 10base2 was faster than my current wireless 802.11g setup. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 04:28:53 2005 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:28:53 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: <20051224034411.GA2809-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051223210224.GK26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20051223234004.GA5873@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051224034411.GA2809@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: You know, after writing my previous message, I decided (on a lark) to put the card in my test machine running Edubuntu 5.10, and wouldn't you know it, the card was recognized and configured automatically! All I had to do was put in the WEP key and configure DHCP, and it worked fine. I know WEP is very insecure, but WPA? I thought it was supposed to be much better. I guess it's all in how you set it up. pm -- Paul Mora email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 05:32:29 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:32:29 -0500 Subject: In case you are planning to buy wireless PCI/USB In-Reply-To: References: <20051221204440.GA4065@node1.opengeometry.net> <20051224034411.GA2809@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200512240032.29601.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Friday 23 December 2005 23:28, Paul Mora wrote: > You know, after writing my previous message, I decided (on a lark) to put > the card in my test machine running Edubuntu 5.10, and wouldn't you know > it, the card was recognized and configured automatically! All I had to do > was put in the WEP key and configure DHCP, and it worked fine. > > I know WEP is very insecure, but WPA? I thought it was supposed to be much > better. I guess it's all in how you set it up. > > pm > > -- > Paul Mora > email: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org WPA is easy to crack if someone uses a weak password. http://www.tinypeap.com/html/wpa_cracker.html Use this generator to create your key, and WPA will be much more secure than WEP. https://www.grc.com/password WEP typically can be cracked within half an hour. WPA can be cracked in less than that when a weak key is in use. There is some good info on the subject here http://wifinetnews.com/archives/004428.html -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 06:07:59 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 01:07:59 -0500 Subject: [Solved]: How do I get nscd working? In-Reply-To: <20051221044303.GA12706-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221044303.GA12706@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20051224060759.GA10410@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:43:03PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote > My system is connecting to the net, but nscd doesn't seem to be > caching DNS requests. Actually, it was working. I recommend not using google.com for testing nscd. Google uses some load-balancing magic... [m3000][waltdnes][~] host www.google.com www.google.com is an alias for www.l.google.com. www.l.google.com has address 72.14.203.104 www.l.google.com has address 72.14.203.99 [m3000][waltdnes][~] host 72.14.203.104 Host 104.203.14.72.in-addr.arpa not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) The default "negative-time-to-live" value causes problems for me. If you get a timeout due to slow DNS, additional requests immediately return with the cached negative result. I've set... negative-time-to-live hosts 2 It works OK, and some web forums (bleagh) definitely run faster. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 07:25:46 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 02:25:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > There is a cost associated with using FOSS, and in many cases it may > exceed the costs of commercial software. Hi Tony. This isn't a personal attack at all but I have to say I really dislike this sort of phraseology. The use of the words "in many cases" makes it sound like a strong statement but it is cut down by "may" thus rendering the statement largely inert. Of course FOSS _might_ cost more in many cases but does it? According to much independent literature on the subject, the answer is no, FOSS does not cost more in the majority of cases. The costs are sometimes comparable to commercial software but are often much less. The cases where FOSS costs more are much rarer. Of couse the issue of costing is a complex one. I work almost exclusively with FOSS. On the few occassionsl that I use commercial software I find licencing, and dealing with it annoying. In terms of commercial software, anything except site licencing requires signifcant human effort to manage from year to year. This is a hidden cost few companies consider. Lost productivity when a licencing system breaks is another hidden cost - this happens more often than it should too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 07:35:38 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 02:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I ran into the nodice.ca Election Talk forums earlier today, and > thought about Evan's thread. What do "general users" (the genernal > population) know about issues that might be relevant to their online > health? Most of the population know nothing about FOSS even in 2005. I ran into someone I used to know recently (we were seated next to each other on a flight). Among other things the topic of Linux and FOSS came up. He had heard of neither. He is an engineer who runs a company that makes specialised components for various industries. For example, he pointed out several parts of the 737 we were in that his company had made for Boeing. He's an intelligent man running a technical company and he had not heard of Linux or FOSS. Now imagine all of those people who have nothing to do with computers or any technical field. They haven't the slighest idea that there are alternatives to MS-Windows or MAc OSX available. Back on Software Freedom Day 2005 I helped out at a stall at a computer show in which we explained FOSS & Linux. A good deal of the attendees (who have much greater computer knowledge than the general population) had only the vaguest notion about what Linux was and most had no idea about FOSS at all. Bottom line - we are still in the very early days of FOSS acceptance and adoption. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 10:48:52 2005 From: Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Stan Witkowski) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:48:52 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> At 02:35 AM 12/24/05 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: >Most of the population know nothing about FOSS even in 2005. ...... [ aside: hey guys, NOTE that I edited this, out of consideration ...... for you, instead of letting 100+ lines trail ON AND ON... ...... because I was too dumb to learn how to edit them, hmmm? ] >Back on Software Freedom Day 2005 I helped out at a stall at a computer >show in which we explained FOSS & Linux. A good deal of the attendees >(who have much greater computer knowledge than the general population) had >only the vaguest notion about what Linux was and most had no idea about >FOSS at all. God, how depressing!! Stan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 12:35:32 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:35:32 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380-ZEWhMxyTXSNv1tLSo3TydwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> Message-ID: <43AD4094.3040301@rogers.com> Stan Witkowski wrote: > At 02:35 AM 12/24/05 -0500, Robert Brockway > wrote: > >> Most of the population know nothing about FOSS even in 2005. > ...... [ aside: hey guys, NOTE that I edited this, out of consideration > ...... for you, instead of letting 100+ lines trail ON AND ON... > ...... because I was too dumb to learn how to edit them, hmmm? ] >> Back on Software Freedom Day 2005 I helped out at a stall at a >> computer show in which we explained FOSS & Linux. A good deal of the >> attendees (who have much greater computer knowledge than the general >> population) had only the vaguest notion about what Linux was and most >> had no idea about FOSS at all. > > > > God, how depressing!! I often mention Linux to others and fortunately many of my coworkers use Linux and/or OpenOffice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 14:18:32 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:18:32 +0000 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380-ZEWhMxyTXSNv1tLSo3TydwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> Message-ID: <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> It could be worse, their knowledge could be based on the FUD that Microsoft use in their Anti Linux / OSS campaigns, I'ts our job to get in there first and educate before MS have a chance too. Paul > > > God, how depressing!! > > Stan. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zh.huang-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 14:47:26 2005 From: zh.huang-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rex Huang) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:47:26 +0800 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A352D9.6000705-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <43A32738.7090905@telly.org> <50064.207.188.65.194.1134766801.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <43A352D9.6000705@telly.org> Message-ID: <573409e0512240647l4474fb81ybccd5b23224e5435@mail.gmail.com> >On 12/17/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi Peter, > > >>http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503108.html > >> > >> > > > >That's an interesting article, Evan. Do you have any sense of whether > >there has been progress on that front in the intervening years? > > > > > I do know that the Jamaican government has started to learn about the > merits of open source and more schools have started to use it. Now that > this is happening, though, there's another threat. Microsoft is giving > huge handouts to developing countries, sometimes in cash or computers > but often in "forgiven" illegal licenses, in order to maintain the > dependency and increase obstacles to change. > > At a UN conference I attended earlier this year in Geneva, the biggest > detractors of FOSS amazingly came from some of the poorest countries, > whose representatives might as well have been reading a prepared script > singing the praises of proprietary vendors. The most vocal, I recall, > was Zimbabwe. (That conference was also memorable to me, because at the > speakers' dinner organizers accidentally sat Stallman next to the lawyer > from Microsoft and me right across from them ;-) ). > > Thankfully, the politics isn't stopping the action at the grassroots > level, but as is so often the case there's little support from above. > The large Microsoft grants to the United Nations Development Program > hasn't prevented many regional office of the UNDP from still being very > pro-open-source, however their doing so right now goes against the > "party line". And thankfully there are many NGOs out there who > understand the drug-pusher-style tactics of cutting prices (or handing > out free samples) in order to build or maintain dependency. But it's > still an uphill climb. > > Notably, the above tactics have been used without any success at all in > China, where one company estimated that almost one in three desktops now > run Linux and the gap continues to close. > > Just my opinions, of course. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > I am from China. I have to say that Microsoft is getting great progess on strenthing the dependencis on MS products. I do not how that company get the estimation, but it is totally wrong. I see nobody using Linux as a desktop for daily work. Here Window XP is too cheap (less than USD$1for one copy) to be dropped. Maybe that one of 3 use a Windows with legal license is close to the real. Months ago, there is a phd candidate from a local most famous University, who wrote an article appealling dropping MS series and turning to opensource/linux. You may see most of these undergradutes, graduates and phd using MS word and powerpoint for paper processing and infomation sharing. Uninersity is supposed to be the entry point for linux, but in China it is not easy too. :( rex 2005-12-24 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 16:16:36 2005 From: stewsinc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Stewart Sinclair) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 11:16:36 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <43AD58B8.6080608-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> Just be careful. FOSS has more than one meaning. http://www.lawrencehallofscience.org/foss/ S. paul sutton wrote: > It could be worse, their knowledge could be based on the FUD that > Microsoft use in their Anti Linux / OSS campaigns, I'ts our job to > get in there first and educate before MS have a chance too. > > Paul > >> >> >> God, how depressing!! >> >> Stan. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 17:30:50 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 24 Dec 2005 12:30:50 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <43AB2252.5010303-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <43AB2252.5010303@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: Clive DaSilva writes: > James Knott wrote: > > >Whenever I hear about that, I have to wonder how Canadian computers > >differ from those in other countries.. What's really disgusting is that > >at a time when we're short of doctors in this province, immigrant > >doctors are driving cabs or flipping burgers! Why isn't there some sort > >of supervised work program, to enable them to get started? > > > >-- > >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > James > > That is too logical a concept for ANY level of government that we currently > have, to consider. > > > IMHO > > Clive There _is_ a supervised work program; it's called an internship. That's right, it's the same program Canadian M.D.s have to participate in before they're licenced. There are a couple of problems, however. First, not all foreign education is considered equivalent -- this is a good thing and not at all surprising -- so some foreign trained doctors have to go back to school. Second, there are a limited number of internship spots for foreign trained graduates. This is also a good thing; it doesn't make sense to graduate Canadian doctors (at great expense to themselves and the taxpayers) only to have their internship spots taken by foreign graduates. As with most things in life, the problem is more complex than it seems. I suspect the points system allows us to take in too many M.D.s without first ensuring that we have the resources to complete their training. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 18:09:26 2005 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 24 Dec 2005 13:09:26 -0500 Subject: memory leak in httpd or child process (what is a memory leak) In-Reply-To: <20051222215418.GF26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <43A849F4.3030105@zen.co.uk> <43A86CAE.6030307@pobox.com> <20051222215418.GF26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 09:41:51PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > There are garbage collectors available for C, most notably the Boehm > > Demers Weiser conservative garbage collector: > > > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ > > > > Also, many C++ programs use a weak form of garbage collection known as > > reference counting. > > > > Why more C/C++ developers (including myself) don't use garbage collection > > more often is a bit of a mystery. > > Probably because for some situations they don't work well, and sometimes > you need to control when memory is freed, rather than at some arbitrary > time chosen by the garbage collector. But those constraints don't apply to the vast majority of programs. Also, the Boehm Demers Weiser garbage collector doesn't preclude explicit use of malloc() and free() so you can "have your cake and eat it too". > It is certainly also possible to write code (arguably badly) in such a way > that you are still considering it in use and know where it is, but the > garbage collector thinks you are done with it. Good tools don't prevent you from writing bad code. > I prefer to know when things are freed and why. A lot of programmers feel the same but don't have good facts or arguments to back up their position. The issues you've raised and more are dealt with here: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/issues.html > garbage collection is for scripting languages :) Which is just one reason why most programmers are more productive with so called scripting languages. -- tim writer starnix inc. 647.722.5301 toronto, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 18:11:12 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 18:11:12 +0000 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <43AD7464.4080104-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> Message-ID: <43AD8F40.5080800@zen.co.uk> Ahh, actually this FOSS sounds interesting, I think the Free Open Source Software over here in the UK is refered to as FLOSS Free Libre Open Source Software. Perhaps adopting FLOSS would stop the confusion between the two, or perhaps that is why FLOSS is used in this context. Apoligies for the confusion, Paul Stewart Sinclair wrote: > Just be careful. FOSS has more than one meaning. > > http://www.lawrencehallofscience.org/foss/ > > S. > > paul sutton wrote: > >> It could be worse, their knowledge could be based on the FUD that >> Microsoft use in their Anti Linux / OSS campaigns, I'ts our job to >> get in there first and educate before MS have a chance too. >> >> Paul >> >>> >>> >>> God, how depressing!! >>> >>> Stan. >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 18:40:34 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:40:34 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <20051222084544.C25573-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA8302.1030005@rogers.com> <43AA8775.3070303@sympatico.ca> <43AA935E.8070907@sympatico.ca> <20051222084544.C25573@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <43AD9622.4080507@sympatico.ca> billt-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Most professional organizations in Ontario recognize qualifications > from other English speaking countries. Well, the PEO didn't like my CEng MBCS from the UK. Nor did they seem overly impressed with my two engineering degrees from one of Scotland's younger institutions of higher education -- it's only 80 years older than Confederation ... > Also, Canadian immigration offices often don't tell perspective > immigrants that their profession is regulated in Canada so they will > be unable to practice it. There are several lawsuits on at the moment about this. I believe they've tightened up the language a bit since I came in 2002, but there used to be almost a guarantee of a job in the documentation. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 18:34:30 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:34:30 -0500 Subject: [OT] Sutff to do in Canada [was Re:jobs in Linux / IT] In-Reply-To: References: <43A85390.10103@zen.co.uk> <43A9BF10.3020008@zen.co.uk> <43AA863A.1060206@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AD94B6.40400@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: > > Make sure you check out curling. Don't diss it, it's a fine Scottish sport. Crokinole would be more of a Ontario thing. And it's a bit more portable. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 19:03:18 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:03:18 -0500 Subject: sending receiving email on bells sympatico smtp port filtering using evolution In-Reply-To: <1135312908.7295.15.camel-LwQTrTZM4/icvWdFBKKxig@public.gmane.org> References: <1135312908.7295.15.camel@vger4.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051224190318.GA18455@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 11:41:47PM -0500, teddy mills wrote > Another solution someone recommended was to use SSH and create a SSH > tunnel. How does one create a SSH tunnel just for SMTP traffic? I am not > going to do that now of course, but it would be good to know as well. The other end has to be running sshd, of course. I have an email account with a provider in Logansport, Indiana because they've hacked up qmail to allow end-users to configure SMTP-stage filters, using a config file in their home directory. I can use DNSbls of my choosing, block on IP address range, rDNS, envelope-sender, etc. And rejections are 550 at SMTP time, not a bounce to an innocent 3rd party whose address has been forged by a spammer or virus. I admin the filter, without having to admin qmail. I only use it as an inbox, and webpage. Here's my script for fetching from my remote inbox... #!/bin/bash /usr/bin/ssh -f -L 10110:pop3.clss.net:110 MyUserID-1sV0mdQTbhc at public.gmane.org sleep 25 getmail -v -v -v --rcfile rc_clss Because regular users can't redirect privileged ports, I use port 10110 locally, and configure getmail to read from 127.0.0.1:10110. Here is one very important item to remember... the tunnel stays open until the last process using the port exits. The "sleep 25" process is there as a placeholder, to keep the connection open until getmail connects with the POPserver. If it takes several minutes to download all my mail (when I'm using dialup), that works OK. getmail is the last process using the port here. You can use port 119 (nntp) or 25 (smtp) or any other fixed port. -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 19:06:54 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:06:54 -0400 (AST) Subject: FOSS and the election In-Reply-To: References: <43AADF1D.70705@telly.org> Message-ID: At CEOS'05 (http://www.dal-acm.ca/CEOS05), a number of CEO's of software companies (2-4?) expressed serious concern with using FOSS in their products and working with FOSS in general. This concern was related to licensing. They figured that it is cheaper for them, in the long run, to develop their own code (reinvent the wheel), than have to deal with interpretation of the licences and all that jazz that may come later. Picking on words is this discussion is not very useful. I don't even know the difference in meaning between 'may' and 'might' when it is used to refer to events in the present or future. The point is, the cost greatly depends on the context and circumstances. In the case of Linux vs. Windows, OpenOffice vs. MS Office, and other general purpose applications, there is little disagreement that FOSS costs less. But in other more specialized applications, the cut is not so clear. ... Even within those who strongly believe in FOSS as a philosophy, there are those who believe GPL is the way, and those who believe that GPL takes away freedom. When speaking of FOSS, it goes way beyond replacing existing proprietary software in use with FOSS equivalents. What tools you use to develop new products (software), what code do you reuse, and what code you release to the public are all far more important issue for software companies. In fact, the licensing cost that we use as our primary weapon is insignificant for most companies. Once again, it all depends on the context. Happy holidays, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Sat, 24 Dec 2005, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Tony Abou-Assaleh wrote: > > > There is a cost associated with using FOSS, and in many cases it may > > exceed the costs of commercial software. > > Hi Tony. This isn't a personal attack at all but I have to say I really > dislike this sort of phraseology. The use of the words "in many cases" > makes it sound like a strong statement but it is cut down by "may" thus > rendering the statement largely inert. > > Of course FOSS _might_ cost more in many cases but does it? > > According to much independent literature on the subject, the answer is no, > FOSS does not cost more in the majority of cases. The costs are sometimes > comparable to commercial software but are often much less. The cases > where FOSS costs more are much rarer. > > Of couse the issue of costing is a complex one. I work almost > exclusively with FOSS. On the few occassionsl that I use commercial > software I find licencing, and dealing with it annoying. In terms of > commercial software, anything except site licencing requires signifcant > human effort to manage from year to year. This is a hidden cost few > companies consider. Lost productivity when a licencing system breaks is > another hidden cost - this happens more often than it should too. > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 > Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org > OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net > We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 19:37:45 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:37:45 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <43AD8F40.5080800-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> <43AD8F40.5080800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512241137k42b04080vedb6dd3b31f5163d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/24/05, paul sutton wrote: > Ahh, actually this FOSS sounds interesting, I think the Free Open > Source Software over here in the UK is refered to as FLOSS Free Libre > Open Source Software. Perhaps adopting FLOSS would stop the confusion > between the two, or perhaps that is why FLOSS is used in this context. I prefer f/loss (provide context, bilingual) over foss, but the later appears to be much more common. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com Canada Votes 2006 - Election Talk http://nodice.ca/etalk/index.php -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 19:46:14 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:46:14 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas Message-ID: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk@www.detachednetworks.ca> I just thought I would take the time today to wish everyone in TLUG a Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays. ( Because I am fairly certain my kids won't let me have enough spare time to get near a computer tomorrow ) No flash, no animations, just a simple ascii e-card ;) XX XX X XX XXX XXX X XX X XX XX XXX X X X X XX X X X X X X X X X XX X X X XX X X XX XX X XX X X X XX X X X X XXX X X X XX XX X X XX X X X XX X X X X XX XX X X X XX XXXX X X X X X XX X X XX + //+ XX XX X XX XX X +////+ XXX XXX XX X +//////+ XXX +/ //////+ +/// //////+ + +////// ////+ ! +///////// // + +-- --+ +////////// //+ ! +/////////// ////+ + + +////////// /// ////+ ! + ////// ////// ///+ +-- --+ +/ /// ///////// //+ ! +/( + )/////////// /+ + / +//( + )//////////// /+ / -X- +//// /////////////+ -X- M +////// /////////// /+ M A + ////////// ////////////+ A S +///////////// ////////// /+ S / +/////////////// //////// //+ / -X- O +///////////// ///// //////+ -X- M + //////////////( // ////////+ / M A +/// //////////////// //////////+ A / S+//////// ////////////// /////////////+ S + / -X- O +///// /////////// /// ////////+ O -X- M +//////// ///////// ////// ///////+ / M A +/////////// ////// ///////// ///////+ A / S +/////////////// // ///////////// ///////+ S / -X- +/+////////////////// ///////////////// ///////// + -X- M +/////////////////// / ////////////////// //+ O / M A O +//////////// ///// ////////////////// ///+ A S//////////////////// ///////// ////////////////// ////////S +////////////////// /////////// /////////////////// //////+ +////////////// ////////MERRY/ ////////////////// ///+ +///////// /////+ CHRISTMAS ///////////////////+ + ++++++++++++ CHRISTMAS +++++++++++++++++ X CHRISTMAS XXXXXX X CHRISTMAS XX XX X X XX X X X X XX XX X X X XX X XXX X XX XXXX XXXXX XX XXXX XX XX X X X X X X X X X X X X X XX XXX X X XX X XXX X X XX XX X X XXX XX X X X X X X XX X XX X X XXXX XX XX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXXX X X X X X X X XXXX X X X X X X XXXX -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 19:48:05 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:48:05 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512241148r7e30cd4dxb7acce97c997def2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/24/05, Robert Brockway wrote: ... > Bottom line - we are still in the very early days of FOSS acceptance and > adoption. Unfortunately, I know the truth of what your saying - it's probably the largest factor fueling my impatience over the last year or so. That's fine and I can deal with it I think. I will do what I can. No more, no less. People need to make noise. That's my problem. The way I posted it to nodice.ca last night, instead of our politicians (and citizenship) maintaining a sane democracy in the North, we're fracturing it. Instead of solving problems, we're busy building them. It needs to change before Canada is no longer Canada. -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com Canada Votes 2006 - Election Talk http://nodice.ca/etalk/index.php -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 20:39:54 2005 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:39:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk-KUU/ezshfxN5BoYsG7eyVkWRYpP4FS/b@public.gmane.org> References: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk@www.detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <37244.66.11.182.5.1135456794.squirrel@cbits.ca> Merry Christmas everybody > I just thought I would take the time today to wish everyone in TLUG a > Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays. ( Because I am fairly certain my > kids won't let me have enough spare time to get near a computer > tomorrow ) > > No flash, no animations, just a simple ascii e-card ;) > > XX XX > X XX XXX XXX X XX X XX XX XXX > X X X X XX X X X X X X X X X XX > X X X XX X X XX XX X XX > X X X XX X X X X XXX > X X X XX XX X X XX > X X X XX X X X X XX XX > X X X XX XXXX X X X X X XX > X X XX + //+ XX XX > X XX XX X +////+ XXX > XXX XX X +//////+ > XXX +/ //////+ > +/// //////+ + > +////// ////+ ! > +///////// // + +-- --+ > +////////// //+ ! > +/////////// ////+ + > + +////////// /// ////+ > ! + ////// ////// ///+ > +-- --+ +/ /// ///////// //+ > ! +/( + )/////////// /+ > + / +//( + )//////////// /+ / -X- > +//// /////////////+ -X- > M +////// /////////// /+ M > A + ////////// ////////////+ A > S +///////////// ////////// /+ S > / +/////////////// //////// //+ / > -X- O +///////////// ///// //////+ -X- > M + //////////////( // ////////+ / M > A +/// //////////////// //////////+ A > / S+//////// ////////////// /////////////+ S + / > -X- O +///// /////////// /// ////////+ O -X- > M +//////// ///////// ////// ///////+ / M > A +/////////// ////// ///////// ///////+ A > / S +/////////////// // ///////////// ///////+ S / > -X- +/+////////////////// ///////////////// ///////// + -X- > M +/////////////////// / ////////////////// //+ O / M > A O +//////////// ///// ////////////////// ///+ A > S//////////////////// ///////// ////////////////// ////////S > +////////////////// /////////// /////////////////// //////+ > +////////////// ////////MERRY/ ////////////////// ///+ > +///////// /////+ CHRISTMAS ///////////////////+ > + ++++++++++++ CHRISTMAS +++++++++++++++++ > X CHRISTMAS > XXXXXX X CHRISTMAS > XX XX X X > XX X X X X > XX XX X X X > XX X XXX X XX XXXX XXXXX XX XXXX > XX XX X X X X X X X X X X X X X > XX XXX X X XX X XXX X X XX XX X X XXX > XX X X X X X X XX X XX X X XXXX XX > XX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X > XXXXXX X X X X X X X XXXX X X X X X X XXXX > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 20:57:49 2005 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:57:49 -0500 Subject: OT: Cross-platform Video Format In-Reply-To: <43A8C7E0.6060604-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <43A880B2.7070605@utoronto.ca> <43A889D4.2050204@pppoe.ca> <43A8A3E7.1070204@utoronto.ca> <43A8AC2D.9060306@pppoe.ca> <43A8C7E0.6060604@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43ADB64D.8070502@interlog.com> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > For those that can't find it: > http://www.elections.ca/entities_e.asp?section=pol&document=video&dir=can&lang=e I had no trouble finding the links to the videos. The problem I ran in to was the window that opened when clicking on the link complained about an attempt to open a pop up since I had Firefox set to stop pop ups. When I let it show the page it looked like it was starting to load some data (a progress bar appeared) but then it complained about the lack of jre. I installed the Java Runtime but then the browser completely hangs when trying to show the page that presented the progress bar. At this point I don't know if the videos are viewable in Linux with mplayer or not since I can't get to the point of seeing the video. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 21:08:30 2005 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:08:30 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk-KUU/ezshfxN5BoYsG7eyVkWRYpP4FS/b@public.gmane.org> References: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk@www.detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0512241308x57912135safa966007bc68cfc@mail.gmail.com> On 12/24/05, jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org wrote: > I just thought I would take the time today to wish everyone in TLUG a > Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays. ( Because I am fairly certain my > kids won't let me have enough spare time to get near a computer > tomorrow ) Lol. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night! Take care, and may Santa be good to you! (He was watching you know. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb psema4.gotdns.com Canada Votes 2006 - Election Talk http://nodice.ca/etalk/index.php -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 22:45:50 2005 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:45:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Scott Elcomb | I ran into the nodice.ca Election Talk forums earlier today, and | thought about Evan's thread. I suspect that many readers will see "Linux" and stop reading. Each bill is important even for non-users of Linux. If I were not lazy, I'd start a thread each for C-60, C-74, and (perhaps) F/LOSS. Since I am lazy, I'll just recommend that you do that :-) Put more than just a URL in. Many folks won't follow a URL without being given enough information to make them curious. Put a brief version your take on this stuff in the message. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 00:31:36 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:31:36 -0500 Subject: sending receiving email on bells sympatico smtp port filtering using evolution In-Reply-To: <20051224190318.GA18455-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <1135312908.7295.15.camel@vger4.dyndns.org> <20051224190318.GA18455@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <43ADE868.4080900@utoronto.ca> I was configuring email for someone who was on Sympatico HSE. They had always sent email through U of T's SMTP server, when U of T was their ISP. But you shouldn't have to change the SMTP server when you use a 3rd party ISP. U of T saves your IP address when you receive mail and so you're automatically authenticated to send email through their SMTP server. Sympatico of course would block traffic to port 25 if it wasn't destined for their SMTP server. So my friend cancelled their service. So when I told them the reason their less than competent (no offense to people involved) technical support would give me a song and dance about how it wasn't possible to do what I wanted to do. I told them their competitor Rogers had no problem allowing traffic to reach U of T's SMTP servers. Some days later, I tried to send mail and it went through. So I cancelled the cancellation. Later when I was talking to Bell, they mentioned that if I'm having a problem with 1st level technical support, to ask to speak with 2nd level technical support. Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukkah Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 00:48:40 2005 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:48:40 -0500 Subject: sending receiving email on bells sympatico smtp port filtering using evolution In-Reply-To: <43ADE868.4080900-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1135312908.7295.15.camel@vger4.dyndns.org> <20051224190318.GA18455@waltdnes.org> <43ADE868.4080900@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <43ADEC68.8050108@rogers.com> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > I was configuring email for someone who was on Sympatico HSE. They had > always sent email through U of T's SMTP server, when U of T was their ISP. > > But you shouldn't have to change the SMTP server when you use a 3rd > party ISP. U of T saves your IP address when you receive mail and so > you're automatically authenticated to send email through their SMTP server. > > Sympatico of course would block traffic to port 25 if it wasn't destined > for their SMTP server. > > So my friend cancelled their service. So when I told them the reason > their less than competent (no offense to people involved) technical > support would give me a song and dance about how it wasn't possible to > do what I wanted to do. I told them their competitor Rogers had no > problem allowing traffic to reach U of T's SMTP servers. > > > Some days later, I tried to send mail and it went through. So I > cancelled the cancellation. > > Later when I was talking to Bell, they mentioned that if I'm having a > problem with 1st level technical support, to ask to speak with 2nd level > technical support. Some ISPs provide a second port, to bypass outgoing SMTP filters. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 06:10:04 2005 From: sacha-ctE++fEYmiYdc6zLPptBHg at public.gmane.org (Sacha Chua) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:10:04 +0800 Subject: Promoting Open Source in Schools In-Reply-To: <43A73D41.2040201-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> (James Knott's message of "Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:07:45 -0500") References: <43A31836.6030108@zen.co.uk> <200512181413.35442.marc@lijour.net> <87k6e1n035.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> <43A73D41.2040201@rogers.com> Message-ID: <87fyokl4xv.fsf@sacha.adphoto.com.ph> James Knott writes: >> I'm a big fan of open source in computing education, and I think >> students definitely need to get exposed to bigger projects than the >> exercises we have them do in class. > Maybe we can get them dumpster diving for code, just like Bill Gates > did. (Does? ) Seriously speaking, that's one of the best ways to learn more about programming. =) Well, maybe not sifting through garbage bins to find program listings, but checking out other people's source code, both horrifically bad bubblegum-and-string implementations and clean and elegant code. -- Sacha Chua - open source, free software geekette http://sacha.free.net.ph/ - PGP Key ID: 0xE7FDF77C interests: emacs, gnu/linux, personal information management, public speaking sachac on irc.freenode.net#emacs . YM: sachachua83 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 12:19:14 2005 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 07:19:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: <43AD8F40.5080800-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> <43AD8F40.5080800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > Ahh, actually this FOSS sounds interesting, I think the Free Open Source > Software over here in the UK is refered to as FLOSS Free Libre Open Source > Software. Perhaps adopting FLOSS would stop the confusion between the two, > or perhaps that is why FLOSS is used in this context. Actually I think the word FLOSS has the potential for even great confusion[1], which is the main reason I use FOSS. A secondary reason I avoid the term FLOSS (at least for now) is that libre is not an english word although the meaning should be easy enough to infer :) [1] Ask most people about FLOSS and they'll admit they need to do it twice per day but usually don't. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: support-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Web: www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 12:19:21 2005 From: erebus-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Erebus) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 12:19:21 +0000 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk-KUU/ezshfxN5BoYsG7eyVkWRYpP4FS/b@public.gmane.org> References: <20051224144614.yjn6l4r7k4ksswkk@www.detachednetworks.ca> Message-ID: <43AE8E49.2040509@rogers.com> Yes, a Merry Christmas to one and all! Hope everyone finds cool tech-toys under the tree (although I got my new Linux workstation just over a month ago so I had a head start). Frank in Mississauga -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 17:51:53 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 12:51:53 -0500 Subject: First shot fired in the Battle with the Penguin? In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> <43AD8F40.5080800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <43AEDC39.5070201@zen.co.uk> Merry Xmas to everyone, yep i got a mp3 player, very small, compact, and reads sd cards, It also has internal memory, which means windows displays two drives, this did confuse me a little, however. Also seems to have text reader so good for reading linux how to files, when offline, Anyway, I think your right regarding the confusion over FLOSS / FOSS. Chat later paul Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 24 Dec 2005, paul sutton wrote: > >> Ahh, actually this FOSS sounds interesting, I think the Free Open >> Source Software over here in the UK is refered to as FLOSS Free Libre >> Open Source Software. Perhaps adopting FLOSS would stop the >> confusion between the two, or perhaps that is why FLOSS is used in >> this context. > > > Actually I think the word FLOSS has the potential for even great > confusion[1], which is the main reason I use FOSS. A secondary reason > I avoid the term FLOSS (at least for now) is that libre is not an > english word although the meaning should be easy enough to infer :) > > [1] Ask most people about FLOSS and they'll admit they need to do it > twice per day but usually don't. > > Rob > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 04:08:43 2005 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 23:08:43 -0500 Subject: [tpm] Best way to monitor a system call In-Reply-To: <43ADA1FF.7010201-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43ADA1FF.7010201@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 12/24/05, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi all, > > Is there a module that lets you call a system application (ie: rsync) > and then watch it's status? I need to find a way to start a system > program and then reliably report on it's status every # seconds. When I use rsync, I use 'vv' for verbose output .. although I just look at the output after it's done, not while it's actually running. If your destination is local, then I suppose you could run 'du -s' on the destination directory to get some idea of how much you've transferred so far. Getting back to 'vv' for verbosity, what do you get with 'vvv'? Is that useful? Good luck. Alex ps Happy whatnot to you too. :) I currently use the 'FileHandle' module in an attempt to do this: > > my $rsync = new FileHandle; > if ( $rsync->open("$settings{rsync_path} $settings{rsync_switches} > --files-from=$files_from $source_dir $dest_dir 2>&1 |") ) > { > while (<$rsync>) > { > s/\n//; > print "rsync: $_\n"; > if ( time > $show_time ) > { > $show_time=time+$settings{rsync_check}; > print "report\n"; > } > } > } > else > { > die "Gak!..."; > } > $rsync->close; > print "rsync exit: $?\n"; > > The problem I have currently is that the 'while (<$rsync>)' loop only > iterates through when the 'rsync' program prints something. So, if > 'rsync' is quiet for a long time 'print "report\n";' can be delayed. > This causes a problem because I am using a web interface and if I can't > print the 'report...' then the connection to the client's browser dies. > > I tried playing with perl IPC earlier on (months ago now) but I could > never quite get it working. No matter what I tried all the file handles > would be destroyed when the child processes returned. > > I don't want to lose the output from 'rsync' though so if there is an > answer, can I still read what 'rsync' prints out as it runs? > > Thanks all! > > Madison > > PS - Happy (your holiday of choice)! > PPS - I've been looking on CPAN for a module that will do the job (and I > heard that one exists) but I can't seem to find it... Though I may well > be blind. :P > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Madison Kelly (Digimer) > TLE-BU; The Linux Experience, Back Up > Main Project Page: http://tle-bu.org > Community Forum: http://forum.tle-bu.org > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > ================================================= > This email appears to originate from the Toronto Perl Mongers Listserver. > > Listserv : tpm-BnhL/mGhxvTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org > Administrative queries: owner-tpm-BnhL/mGhxvTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org > > -- ---------- Linux, Firefox and GMail .. what a combination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 06:27:51 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 01:27:51 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged Message-ID: <1e55af990512252227h7a5227fdxc9b1651dd4b12c2@mail.gmail.com> [root at localhost ~]# cd /var [root at localhost var]# du 37M . [root at localhost var]# df Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/hda6 1.9G 1.8G 0 100% /var Physically going there reports 37M of stuff. However, somehow things are mysteriously clogged. This is a problem because rsync is too stupid to sync this partition with another of the same size, because it doesn't like functioning as expected when running low on disk space on the target. *mutter* I haven't had any recent issues with the setup at all.. so nothing leaps to mind when I noticed this problem. Ideas? I'm probably going to just nuke the lot of it and reinstall my distro, so that's an option. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 06:34:16 2005 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 01:34:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: var is mysteriously clogged Message-ID: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> | [root at localhost ~]# cd /var | [root at localhost var]# du | 37M . | | [root at localhost var]# df | Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on | /dev/hda6 1.9G 1.8G 0 100% /var You likely have a process with a big open, removed file in /var. File space is not actually reclaiming until the last link to it is removed, and the last open file descriptor is closed. So, for example, if you have a big log file that, say, apache has open, you can't reclaim the space just by removing the file. You also have to cause apache to close the file. Try "lsof /var" and look for a likely culprit. Cheers! John (wondering why I'm reading mail at 1:30am on boxing day) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 12:32:44 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 07:32:44 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443-bi+AKbBUZKYsbE7Vo+MiNSGuMlDgniV8mpATvIKMPHk@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14@mail.gmail.com> On 12/26/05, John Sellens wrote: > You likely have a process with a big open, removed file in /var. > File space is not actually reclaiming until the last link to it > is removed, and the last open file descriptor is closed. > > So, for example, if you have a big log file that, say, apache > has open, you can't reclaim the space just by removing the file. > You also have to cause apache to close the file. > > Try "lsof /var" and look for a likely culprit. Geeze, I think that's it.. I do have very aggressive system logging, and I'd bet it's not being particularly smart. I'll reboot, and watch things closer. syslogd 6977 root 2w REG 3,6 635317036 211846 /var/log/syslog (deleted) syslogd 6977 root 4w REG 3,6 545659201 211872 /var/log/messages (deleted) syslogd 6977 root 12w REG 3,6 314128554 211946 /var/log/kernel/info (deleted) syslogd 6977 root 13w REG 3,6 208249228 211950 /var/log/kernel/warnings (deleted) syslogd 6977 root 14w REG 3,6 112619924 211942 /var/log/kernel/errors (deleted) Actually, some of that really worries me.. I probably have some system issues.. meh. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 13:27:29 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 08:27:29 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512260527l4663d9d1pe5ffbada40c170dc@mail.gmail.com> Upon rebooting, my mysterious issue went away. I also poked around and found some other stuff to fix. Stupid runaway backups (46 gigs of them). I'm annoyed that .backupignore doesn't apply to subdirectories. Hrmph. If I get around to it, it's a simple line to replicate the file into subdirectories though. Ok, back to "normal".. thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 16:05:23 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: Contributions to developers Message-ID: In this season that is getting so associated with gratuitous excess, let me suggest an action that can help encourage the free software community... Namely, this week, excess greeting cards should be coming available at really cut-rate prices. :-) Those of us that have been "blessed" with decent earnings this year might consider grabbing a card or two, putting a small bill or two in, and sending them off to developers associated with one or another of your favorite projects. There are people being paid full time by notable companies like Red Hat, Novell, and such; they aren't in such need of assistance; in contrast, there are plenty of little projects that haven't got any "formal corporate sponsorship" where a little bit of encouragement can go a long ways. Mind you, seeing kind words come in can be considerably "moralizing" (contrast with "demoralizing"!) whereever the developers may be. Between now and New Year's, I'm going to see about finding a few places to send some cards. If a few others can do the same, that could be a pretty spectacular bit of encouragement to some projects. I am NOT going to recommend anyone as being more worthy; the more diversity, the better. I hope people have had some Merry times thus far, and that there are some Happy times to come as the New Year approaches! -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 21:45:39 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:45:39 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512252227h7a5227fdxc9b1651dd4b12c2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512252227h7a5227fdxc9b1651dd4b12c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B06483.3070306@zen.co.uk> Hi Is there a cron job or similar that periodically cleans the system, as Linux is designed to be on 24/7 then it would perhaps be run at midnight when a server in quieter, so perhaps if you system is not running 24/7 the computer is turned off, when this would noramally run. While nuking the system and reinstalling may be a good option, this is not an option in a mission critical environment, perhaps its worth investigating how to fix this, as the knowledge would come in handy should you ever be in a similar situation when it needs to be fixed or should someone else on the lug be in such a situation. perhaps looking at your cron setup and see what runs, if you see something that clearly does something e.g clears /var/log at a certain time then you could try that, Not sure this is just a wild guess, I know log files can be pretty big after awhile. This has to be fixable other wise if its a case of nuke / reinstall you may as well use windows, as you would do that with windows, the point of Linux is that you don't have to or at least not as often. Hope this is useful, perhaps comments on if this is the right solution. Paul Sy Ali wrote: >[root at localhost ~]# cd /var >[root at localhost var]# du >37M . > >[root at localhost var]# df >Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on >/dev/hda6 1.9G 1.8G 0 100% /var > > >Physically going there reports 37M of stuff. However, somehow things >are mysteriously clogged. This is a problem because rsync is too >stupid to sync this partition with another of the same size, because >it doesn't like functioning as expected when running low on disk space >on the target. *mutter* > >I haven't had any recent issues with the setup at all.. so nothing >leaps to mind when I noticed this problem. > >Ideas? > >I'm probably going to just nuke the lot of it and reinstall my distro, >so that's an option. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 17:49:31 2005 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:49:31 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443-bi+AKbBUZKYsbE7Vo+MiNSGuMlDgniV8mpATvIKMPHk@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> Message-ID: <43B02D2B.6060004@rogers.com> > Try "lsof /var" and look for a likely culprit. Man, is there *anything* lsof can't do? I love that bloody tool. Linux or bsd, it's nice having it around :) Merry Christmas/Chanukah/Kwanzaa/Eid/Festivus/etc, Byron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 18:47:27 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (PW Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:47:27 -0500 Subject: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive registration? In-Reply-To: References: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B03ABF.6070803@gmail.com> Hugh - Your on-line chat with Ryan was correct, I had selected an additional item, and when I went back and reordered, I unselected it, and the final price was 10.65 (9.95+gst). Thx for the clarification. -Peter D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Peter Armstrong wrote: > >| Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:42:29 -0500 >| From: Peter Armstrong >| Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >| To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >| Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive >| registration? >| >| > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: >| > >| > > On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb >| > wrote: >| > > > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong >| > > wrote: >| > > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar >| > > for .ca dn's? >| > > > >| > > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - >| > > http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names >| > > > >| > > >| > >| Actually, if you try to purchase a .ca from >| Netfirms, >| the final price is $18.09, not $9.95 as advertised!! >| >| Double what they advertise(!). >| >| They add on $6.95 for "Shipping & Handling Surface >| Mail (CAN)"(?!), and of course gst of $1.19, for a >| total $18.09 > >This is ourtrageos. So I thought I'd check. > >I just asked their live chat support about this. They seem to think >the S&H is for some CD that sounds useless. > >Did you get a CD? > >BTW, the prices are in Canadian dollars. > > Chat Information Welcome to the Netfirms Live Sales Chat! A Sales > Representative will assist you shortly. > Chat Information You are now chatting with 'Ryan' >Ryan: Hello, thank you for contacting us. How may I help you today? >Hugh: Your web page says that a domain is $9.95 / year. I've heard > that you actually charge a large "shipping and handling" fee on top of > that, but I do not see that mentioned on your page. Can you point me > to this policy? >Ryan: The domain name is $9.95= $10.65 with taxes. We do not charge a > shipping and handling fee unless you order the Net Objects Starter CD > which is NOT mandatory. >Hugh: OK. All I want is to renew my domain. I don't need a DNS host > and I don't need a web host. So it would be $10.65 / year? That's > good. >Ryan: I will be right with you. >Ryan: Yes but did your domain already expire? >Hugh: no. A month or two away. >Ryan: You can transfer your domain using the registrar transfer option > for the aforementioned price >Ryan: > https://secure.netfirms.ca/signup/ca-en/signup-fs_domainlookup?hostingproduct=hostingbasic >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 19:06:09 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (PW Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:06:09 -0500 Subject: Linux display driver for M810LMR motherboard In-Reply-To: References: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B03F21.6060101@gmail.com> Installed a new motherboard in my pc, an ASRock M810LMR. Everything is fine, except for the video. There doesn't seem to be a linux driver for this motherboard. Does anyone know where I can find one? Thx very much. -Peter D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Peter Armstrong wrote: > >| Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:42:29 -0500 >| From: Peter Armstrong >| Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >| To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >| Subject: Re: [TLUG]: .ca dn registration - any recommendations for inexpensive >| registration? >| >| > --- Leigh Honeywell wrote: >| > >| > > On 12/13/05, Scott Elcomb >| > wrote: >| > > > On 12/13/05, PW Armstrong >| > > wrote: >| > > > > can anyone recommend an inexpensive registrar >| > > for .ca dn's? >| > > > >| > > > Netfirms charges $9.95/yr - >| > > http://www.netfirms.ca/domain-names >| > > > >| > > >| > >| Actually, if you try to purchase a .ca from >| Netfirms, >| the final price is $18.09, not $9.95 as advertised!! >| >| Double what they advertise(!). >| >| They add on $6.95 for "Shipping & Handling Surface >| Mail (CAN)"(?!), and of course gst of $1.19, for a >| total $18.09 > >This is ourtrageos. So I thought I'd check. > >I just asked their live chat support about this. They seem to think >the S&H is for some CD that sounds useless. > >Did you get a CD? > >BTW, the prices are in Canadian dollars. > > Chat Information Welcome to the Netfirms Live Sales Chat! A Sales > Representative will assist you shortly. > Chat Information You are now chatting with 'Ryan' >Ryan: Hello, thank you for contacting us. How may I help you today? >Hugh: Your web page says that a domain is $9.95 / year. I've heard > that you actually charge a large "shipping and handling" fee on top of > that, but I do not see that mentioned on your page. Can you point me > to this policy? >Ryan: The domain name is $9.95= $10.65 with taxes. We do not charge a > shipping and handling fee unless you order the Net Objects Starter CD > which is NOT mandatory. >Hugh: OK. All I want is to renew my domain. I don't need a DNS host > and I don't need a web host. So it would be $10.65 / year? That's > good. >Ryan: I will be right with you. >Ryan: Yes but did your domain already expire? >Hugh: no. A month or two away. >Ryan: You can transfer your domain using the registrar transfer option > for the aforementioned price >Ryan: > https://secure.netfirms.ca/signup/ca-en/signup-fs_domainlookup?hostingproduct=hostingbasic >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 19:32:48 2005 From: pwa.linux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (PW Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: Linux display driver for M810LMR motherboard In-Reply-To: <43B03F21.6060101-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <845e3b310512160742h302c372aq736b20137ba4666c@mail.gmail.com> <43B03F21.6060101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B04560.8080802@gmail.com> Apparently the motherboard has "chip-integrated ProSavage4 graphics". Maybe I should be looking for a ProSavage4 graphics driver for linux? I also forgot to mention I'm running rh 8. thx. -Peter PW Armstrong wrote: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [TLUG]: Linux display driver for M810LMR motherboard Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:06:09 -0500 From: PW Armstrong To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Installed a new motherboard in my pc, an ASRock M810LMR. Everything > is fine, except for the video. There doesn't seem to be a linux > driver for this motherboard. Does anyone know where I can find one? > Thx very much. > > -Peter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 19:34:03 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:34:03 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <43B06483.3070306-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512252227h7a5227fdxc9b1651dd4b12c2@mail.gmail.com> <43B06483.3070306@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <1e55af990512261134g33ed01deie7b55d8b99d5b80a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/26/05, Paul Sutton wrote: > Hi > > Is there a cron job or similar that periodically cleans the system, as > Linux is designed to be on 24/7 then it would perhaps be run at midnight > when a server in quieter, so perhaps if you system is not running 24/7 > the computer is turned off, when this would noramally run. It is a 27/7 setup, and has been used as a server. I suspect some of my mad (insane) hackery has screwed stuff up repeatedly. I poked around a bit, but it's not something I want to get into right now, seeing as I don't trust the setup in general. Logfiles are supposed to rotate automatically, so it's mindboggling that things are being mishandled. I'll keep an eye on things, but it's not something I want to investigate. I'm tired of Linux's constant time-wasting pitfalls. I'm running a beta distro, and I've cuffed it around the head a few times so I think things are bound to be a bit broken sometimes. I'll do the system reinstall sometime soonish, since that's trivial enough to do (except encfs and vmware will break, but that's another story) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 21:54:22 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:54:22 -0500 Subject: Sterilizing free space Message-ID: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470@mail.gmail.com> I can nicely sterilize a complete drive with shred -n 2 -z -v /dev/ however I don't know how to do a partition or just the slack space on a drive. This bails out with a complaint about running out of disk space, before completing its first pass: shred -n 2 -z -v /dev/ The only solutions I've come across deal with an entire drive: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/ http://dban.sourceforge.net/ Ideas? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 05:28:03 2005 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (J. Qiang Li) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 21:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Contributions to developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051227052803.55358.qmail@web54701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Browne wrote: > In this season that is getting so associated with gratuitous excess, > let me suggest an action that can help encourage the free software > community... > > Namely, this week, excess greeting cards should be coming available at > really cut-rate prices. :-) [snip] it reminds me that freeware authors ask for a postcard in return for their software. I would prefer of sending the card without the author knowing it and it would be more fun that way. but there are only few of projects that you can find the author's address. but i am going to check whether my favoriate Perl projects got author address.. thanks for the idea :) J. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 07:03:30 2005 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 02:03:30 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512260527l4663d9d1pe5ffbada40c170dc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512260527l4663d9d1pe5ffbada40c170dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051227070330.GC7946@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 08:27:29AM -0500, Sy Ali wrote > Upon rebooting, my mysterious issue went away. Repeat after me... linux != Windows Thou shalst not rebooteth Since it was syslogd holding the files open (as per your previous message) all you had to do was to restart syslogd. That should've released the filespace. There is a "postrotate" clause in logrotate that can do this for you automatically. I use syslog-ng which uses a "reload" option; syslogd might use "restart". Check the man pages for your software. Here's my /etc/logrotate.d/syslog-ng file... # $Header: /var/cvsroot/gentoo-x86/app-admin/syslog-ng/files/syslog-ng.logrotate,v 1.2 2004/07/18 02:25:02 dragonheart Exp $ # # Syslog-ng logrotate snippet for Gentoo Linux # contributed by Michael Sterrett # /var/log/messages { sharedscripts postrotate /etc/init.d/syslog-ng reload > /dev/null 2>&1 || true endscript } -- Walter Dnes In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 15:18:30 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:18:30 -0500 Subject: FOSS, FLOSS and all that In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512241137k42b04080vedb6dd3b31f5163d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0512222022v3e4537b4kfee0aed04711f7ca@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20051224054827.03193380@mail.the-wire.com> <43AD58B8.6080608@zen.co.uk> <43AD7464.4080104@eol.ca> <43AD8F40.5080800@zen.co.uk> <99a6c38f0512241137k42b04080vedb6dd3b31f5163d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B15B46.5090303@telly.org> Scott Elcomb wrote: >On 12/24/05, paul sutton wrote: > > >>Ahh, actually this FOSS sounds interesting, I think the Free Open >>Source Software over here in the UK is refered to as FLOSS Free Libre >>Open Source Software. Perhaps adopting FLOSS would stop the confusion >>between the two, or perhaps that is why FLOSS is used in this context. >> >> > >I prefer f/loss (provide context, bilingual) over foss, but the later >appears to be much more common. > > The whole reason for using an acronym such as FOSS or FLOSS is that for various (generally political rather than linguistic) reasons the terms "open source" and "free software" are considered incompatible by a significant minority. While most people (including myself) freely interchange the two, I have heard some say that "open source is free software without the political baggage" and I've heard Stallman describe open source as "free software without the ethics". Paul mentions the situation in the UK and suggests that "FLOSS" is commonly used. Yet on the website of the UKUUG, the country's largest Unix/Linux user group, the terms "FLOSS" or "FOSS" are nowhere to be found -- "open source" appears the usage of choice there. At very least this indicates that in the UK, like elsewhere in the English speaking world, there is no consensus. This isn't generally an issue in the worlds of other languages. In France and Qu?bec, "source ouvert" is unheard of and "logiciel libre" prevails. Of course the probably has to do with the fact that only in English do we have the "libre/gratis" ambiguity of the word "free". It appears that the political pissing matches between Stallman and Raymond (and their respective followers), and the associated linguistic whining, are limited to Anglophones (with the notable exception of the "Linux" versus "GNU/Linux" debate, which is a different story...). Both FLOSS and FOSS (as well as F/LOSS, which is hardly a bilingual term) are IMO clumsy, and have other previously established meanings. They're designed to be a polite, diplomatic, non-controversial compromise which doesn't annoy "free software" or "open source" fans, yet slightly irritates all in the process. It's no surprise that most FOSS project websites dispense with the acronym (just try to find the term "FOSS" or "FLOSS" at apache.org or sendmail.org or almost any other "logiciel libre" project). If one must choose to use one of them, I prefer FOSS for a few reasons; - FOSS and FLOSS both represent the same concept, so linguistically the preference is to use the more efficient, compact term - Stallman doesn't call his movement "free/libre software" - Since the term "open source" is already within the acronym, having built-in a context for "free" (especially one imported from another language) isn't required. Even the expansion of the acronym can makes a difference. Some people expand FOSS as "free and open source software", providing an amalgam of what some people perceive as two distinct categories of software. I prefer the expansion "free, open source software" to emphasize my own feeling that Stallman's and Raymond's stances are really just two sides of the same coin. "Open Source" is not without its own political baggage, and "Free Software" does not have a monopoly on ethics. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 16:14:16 2005 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:14:16 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <20051223210821.GL26580-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> <20051223210821.GL26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200512271114.16686.mervc@eol.ca> On Friday 23 December 2005 16:08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Rogers has a hi-def PVR which I belive is the only such device available > in canada from any of the providers. I highly doubt it will let you get > the recordings off it though. > ----- > I would love to know if it is possible with any available hardware to > get HD from cable, or if only the digital box can do that at this time. > I know you can do it off the air, although I think city tv is the only > available channel so far in toronto. > > Len Sorensen > -- What got me started on this was a short article in the Nov 05 HUB magazine called 'Press record and shuffle those bits' - pg 26. Partly because of its brevity, I hope, I didn't understand the last part dealing with the digital recorder available from cable providers. At any rate some DVD recorders can handle the HD format, none are specified tho. I did go back and look at the HD recorder compatable with Rogers and it was $600 instead of the $400 I thought it was. So recording programs is a tad expensive. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can SuSE 10 Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 18:03:43 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:03:43 +0000 Subject: Found what looks to be a very good how to site Message-ID: <43B181FF.4050809@zen.co.uk> http://www.howtoforge.com/ Hi Sorry about cross posting however this is relevant to all groups The above web site looks very handy for both newbies and advanced users alike Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 18:24:01 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:24:01 -0500 Subject: gnome mime filetypes Message-ID: I use the RHEL distro. MIME does files to application mapping. However the only way I have found to make changes is.. /usr/share/applications/defaults.list and in /usr/share/mime -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 19:58:58 2005 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:58:58 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <200512271114.16686.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> <20051223210821.GL26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200512271114.16686.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20051227145858.6718a49f.tleslie@tcn.net> i have the HD PVR ............ i found a company in the states that will mod it so it can transfer out the movie on the fire-wire, regardless of the copyprotect setting. I was thinking of removing the HD and seeing what partitions and filesystem it uses .. anyone tried that? I was thinking of putting a swappable drive drawer in , and putting in a 250GB drive. -tl On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:14:16 -0500 Merv Curley wrote: > On Friday 23 December 2005 16:08, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > Rogers has a hi-def PVR which I belive is the only such device available > > in canada from any of the providers. I highly doubt it will let you get > > the recordings off it though. > > > > ----- > > > I would love to know if it is possible with any available hardware to > > get HD from cable, or if only the digital box can do that at this time. > > I know you can do it off the air, although I think city tv is the only > > available channel so far in toronto. > > > > Len Sorensen > > -- > > What got me started on this was a short article in the Nov 05 HUB magazine > called 'Press record and shuffle those bits' - pg 26. Partly because of > its brevity, I hope, I didn't understand the last part dealing with the > digital recorder available from cable providers. At any rate some DVD > recorders can handle the HD format, none are specified tho. > > I did go back and look at the HD recorder compatable with Rogers and it was > $600 instead of the $400 I thought it was. So recording programs is a tad > expensive. > > > > -- > Merv Curley > Toronto, Ont. Can > > SuSE 10 > Desktop KDE 3.4.2 KMail 1.8.3 > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 05:52:39 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:39 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch Message-ID: There is the idea of No Free Lunch. That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very little to you. The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to invest some work, even though the book itself was free. This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value system. Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker champ. Same thing with Linux too, I think. The distros are there, but the intrinsic value of Linux must originate from that person. my 2 cents. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 06:31:03 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:31:03 -0400 (AST) Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is some merit to what you said below, but it has nothing to do with the 'no free lunch' as I understand it. No free lunch refers to the fact that you don't get anything for free, it all costs something. My familiarity with the No Free Lunch (NFL) Theorem comes from 'search algorithm' and it states that no search algorithm is better than any other search algorithm over all possible inputs. What it means in practice is that if you use a heuristic to improve performance in some area, you will lose on another area. It's similar to the notion of 'you can't get something out of nothing', or the first law of thermodynamics (and maybe even the second). So, when we deal with matter and energy, thermodynamics tells us that we can produce matter or energy out of nothing. The third law also tells us that we can't do any useful work without wasting (spending) energy. No free lunch applies these concepts where the matter and energy view is not easy to see, but then the NFL itself is not easy to see either. I hope that was somewhat on target. Happy holidays, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, teddy mills wrote: > > There is the idea of No Free Lunch. > > That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you > dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > > If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very > little to you. The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because > YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. > > A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is > sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. > > Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the > library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them > when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, > and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to > invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > > This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value > system. > > Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can > get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of > value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > > We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For > the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. > > You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be > the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker > champ. Same thing with Linux too, I think. The distros are there, but > the intrinsic value of Linux must originate from that person. > > my 2 cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 15:30:20 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (Paul Sutton) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:30:20 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch and UI issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B2AF8C.5000102@zen.co.uk> I am not sure if I fully understand what all this means, I place value on data, as would anyone, what people want is a reliable way of creating and storing that data, on a system that will not trash this data, Windows does that, only then suffers from problems that causes a virus or whatever to trash the data, Linux does not have that problem but I hve had to nuke adn reinstall because of a problem I don't understand and can't fix. Most people can fix problems in windows or ask a friend to fix it, because in most cases their friend can be there to fix it, as in on site. I know lots of people who can use Linux and ther are about 6 of us including me living in torbay, who are on the local Linux user group. It depends on what you want back from the users, I think a simple e-mail to say this works, goes a long way, The community needs to find a way to make it easier for users to provide feedback to developers, even if this is via user groups, then the developers need to take note and act on these recomendations. The oo.org method seems very over complex, I have sent a new poster in for the software and asked if it is ok to use the various logos within it, as I took these from the flyer ,includng the windows logo, as the software works with windows, So far I have had very little feed back, on it's been christmas, but not many people have even read the issue. I think others feel the same way, they don't want to create issues etc they just want to contribute something. some examples of UI problems In control center - part of kde there is a Login manager section but this does not seem to include a way to add users, however to do this I use kuser which is a separate program, not included in control panel, This is the problem. In windows I would goto control panel, but in Linux I have to go somewhree else, after I have gone to somewhere where I would expect to find this tool. I spend a lot of time searching for stuff, Another example is on kanotix there is a games menu, there is also a debian games menu, try finding something and it's no on one so try the other, there should be ONE games menu yes with submenus, but lets keep it simple. Ok saying that at least I know where games are, try with windows and it just sticks stuff anywhere, so in this sense Linux is a little better. Another example is the adsl connection too, if it can't find a connection it says something about an "access concentrator" perhaps developers here need lessons in ENGLISH, ie in dump the techno babble and say I am unable to detect a connection to the internet, it also says about perahps another process is using pppoe or something. I understand it kind of but people with no knowledgre don't stand a chance. Again for people like me I have learnt now I can type dhclient in a console window, and get a connection, I kind of understand what is happening, but toa total newbie this would be really off putting. Most users who get stuck with the second example can't even get on the net to make contributions in the first, place, or even ask for help, so they boot into windows (which works) in order to ask for help on something that should work better. what is needed is simplicity, without sacraficing the power of the system, or perhaps Linspire is the way to go, easy to use, where as those of us who want power and the toools can use different distros, Get the base system working, theh give average person out there, the tools they need. teddy mills wrote: >There is the idea of No Free Lunch. > >That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you >dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > >If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very >little to you. The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because >YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. > >A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is >sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. > >Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the >library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them >when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, >and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to >invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > >This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value >system. > >Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can >get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of >value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > >We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For >the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. > >You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be >the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker >champ. Same thing with Linux too, I think. The distros are there, but >the intrinsic value of Linux must originate from that person. > >my 2 cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 12:28:40 2005 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 07:28:40 -0500 Subject: PVR's In-Reply-To: <20051227145858.6718a49f.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>; from tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org on Tue, Dec 27, 2005 at 14:58:58 -0500 References: <200512191655.56617.mervc@eol.ca> <20051223210821.GL26580@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200512271114.16686.mervc@eol.ca> <20051227145858.6718a49f.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20051228122840.GA9486@localhost> On Tue Dec 27,2005 02:58:58 PM ted leslie wrote: > i have the HD PVR ............ [...] > I was thinking of removing the HD and seeing what partitions and > filesystem it uses .. anyone tried that? The Scientific Atlanta PVR's that Rogers uses have a proprietary file system on the HDD and encrypt the data using the serial number of the unit as part of the key. You can't even transfer a drive between different units of the same model and view previously recorded material. > I was thinking of putting a swappable drive > drawer in , and putting in a 250GB drive. The way to expand the storage on the SA8300HD PVR is to use an external SATA drive. There is a E-SATA connector on the back of the PVR designed for this purpose. There's lots of information on doing this in this formum thread: And, you can find plenty more general information on these PVR's in the forum at: -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 16:05:03 2005 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:05:03 -0500 Subject: Dual booting RH and Ubantu issues + RHCT questions Message-ID: Hi pals, I am planning to attempt RHCT comming Feb and humbly seeks some help. I have been using Ubantu since the first release and it has been fun. Its however not a good distribution to prepare for RH exams. So, a used an ubantu live CD and created a free partation using parted. (Using second hard drive is impractical as I am using a laptop). Then I used a Fedora 4 DVD from the book "Red Hat Fedora 4 unleashed" ISBN 0-672-32792-9 and pointed it to the free partation and thats where I am having issues. I bail out claiming the free space is not a boot partation. This was a surprise as I have done a couple of Windows 2000 and Red hat 8 dual boots sometimes back in the same way. Now, what the best way to go around this problem? I am nervous forcing the free space to be a boot partation may result to a loss of my files on Ubantu partation Oh, this is how the drive is partationed. 1,2 and 3 are primary partation. 1 is the largest and houses Ubantu. 2 is an ex3 partation that currently houses nothing. I intended to install Fedora there, but turned out to be too dinky. The third partation is 8 GB free space and its where I am trying to install Fedora 4. there is two other extended partation that will house swap data for both install instances - well if I do overcome this issue. Please help, as documents out there assume one can only dual boot a distributon with Windows This year, I understand one need to learn XFEE 86. I understand they will be changing that to Xorg sometime next year. Since X server is a substantial part in RH exams, does anyone know when they will seize using Xfee 86 on their exams? I am unfortunate not to have worked on a productive network and therefore have little of SCSI experience. (I have read a lot about it though). What is the chance of someone passing RH exams without touching a scsi drive? And would anyone know a company/organization that are Linux intensive and can accomodate someone for two months free or for a fee? I am nervous I may end up loosing 2,300 dollars if I don't have enough practice on a productive system. I live in North York, but willing to travel as far as Mississauga if needs be. I would be grateful for any help and thank you a lot in advance William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 16:21:42 2005 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: Sterilizing free space In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 04:54:22PM -0500, Sy Ali wrote: >I can nicely sterilize a complete drive with shred -n 2 -z -v >/dev/ however I don't know how to do a partition or just the >slack space on a drive. Why not fill the drive with a single file and then securely erase it? cat /dev/zero > /home/user/tmp/zerofile wait for drive to fill bcwipe /home/user/tmp/zerofile Keep in mind that there is debate as to whether or not you can ever securely erase information from a journaled file system. -- Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux Network Administrator | Uptime 1 day http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 16:47:36 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:47:36 -0500 Subject: Sterilizing free space In-Reply-To: <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> References: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470@mail.gmail.com> <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> Message-ID: So, if you are using ext3, just remount in ext2 mode and then continue and all will be gone. If you are using Reiser you might want to cross post to one of the SUSE mailing lists. -Joseph- On 12/28/05, Neil Watson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 04:54:22PM -0500, Sy Ali wrote: > >I can nicely sterilize a complete drive with shred -n 2 -z -v > >/dev/ however I don't know how to do a partition or just the > >slack space on a drive. > > Why not fill the drive with a single file and then securely erase it? > > cat /dev/zero > /home/user/tmp/zerofile > wait for drive to fill > bcwipe /home/user/tmp/zerofile > > Keep in mind that there is debate as to whether or not you can ever > securely erase information from a journaled file system. > > -- > Neil Watson | Gentoo Linux > Network Administrator | Uptime 1 day > http://watson-wilson.ca | 2.6.11.4 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 16:50:58 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:50:58 -0500 Subject: Dual booting RH and Ubantu issues + RHCT questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: During the install, what choices did you make before the installer crapped out? If you press ALT-CTRL-F3, F4, F5 do any of the other virtual terminals have any error message that might be more usefull? -Joseph- On 12/28/05, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals, > I am planning to attempt RHCT comming Feb and humbly seeks some help. > I have been using Ubantu since the first release and it has been fun. > Its however not a good distribution to prepare for RH exams. > So, a used an ubantu live CD and created a free partation using > parted. (Using second hard drive is impractical as I am using a > laptop). Then I used a Fedora 4 DVD from the book "Red Hat Fedora 4 > unleashed" ISBN 0-672-32792-9 and pointed it to the free partation and > thats where I am having issues. I bail out claiming the free space is > not a boot partation. This was a surprise as I have done a couple of > Windows 2000 and Red hat 8 dual boots sometimes back in the same way. > Now, what the best way to go around this problem? I am nervous forcing > the free space to be a boot partation may result to a loss of my files > on Ubantu partation > Oh, this is how the drive is partationed. 1,2 and 3 are primary > partation. 1 is the largest and houses Ubantu. 2 is an ex3 partation > that currently houses nothing. I intended to install Fedora there, but > turned out to be too dinky. The third partation is 8 GB free space and > its where I am trying to install Fedora 4. there is two other extended > partation that will house swap data for both install instances - well > if I do overcome this issue. Please help, as documents out there > assume one can only dual boot a distributon with Windows > > This year, I understand one need to learn XFEE 86. I understand they > will be changing that to Xorg sometime next year. Since X server is a > substantial part in RH exams, does anyone know when they will seize > using Xfee 86 on their exams? > > I am unfortunate not to have worked on a productive network and > therefore have little of SCSI experience. (I have read a lot about it > though). What is the chance of someone passing RH exams without > touching a scsi drive? And would anyone know a company/organization > that are Linux intensive and can accomodate someone for two months > free or for a fee? I am nervous I may end up loosing 2,300 dollars if > I don't have enough practice on a productive system. I live in North > York, but willing to travel as far as Mississauga if needs be. > > I would be grateful for any help and thank you a lot in advance > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:00:38 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:00:38 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B2C4B6.9080704@telly.org> teddy mills wrote: >That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you >dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > > Basic Logic 101 states that if your premise is flawed, most conclusions based on that premise will also be flawed. There are a lot of assumptions here to be challenged; whether conventional wisdom or spur-of-the-moment assertions, I agree with very little of what's been put forward as a foundation for anything to debate. There is a big difference between a statement being often true and being a truism. It is a mistake to elevate one's own experiences into universal constants. >If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very little to you. > If you have 10 computer users in your family, or if each serves a unique purpose, losing one will certainly mean something. >The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. > Then again, if a lot of it was downloaded from other sites, it's not necessarily difficult to recover. >A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. > > Again, true in some cases, but not all. Some people *do* love what they do and give value to it beyond the pay. As I went through journalism school, I found that getting one's name in print or one's face on the air would motivate people to work for far less than their market value. Media outlets, of course, exploit this vanity. As for the specific example, my son works part time at Blockbuster _because_ he loves movies. He can rent 10 movies a week for free and takes maximum advantage of the perk. His knowledge and ability to talk about movies makes him more valuable to his employer, but he gets a genuine thrill about recommending good stuff and keeping people away from crap. >Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > > I can't disagree more. I use the library because there are books I want to read but don't need to own. The fact that I don't directly pay for the borrowing privilege does not make the books themselves less valuable. The last book I borrowed was a university textbook that was only available as a $200 hardcover. The book has value to me, but so does the library offer value to me by making the borrowing facility available. The fact that the book was on the shelves and didn't needed to be on hold does not make the book more or less valuable. >This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value system. > > This only peripherally touches on Linux's problem with the human reward value system. Indeed, I would suggest that this "problem" is one that many other fields would covet. >Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > > Bad premise, bad conclusion. Not only is there a way, but such way is in use. That way is what gave you Linux and sendmail and so much else of what is in the open source world. >We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. > The value of such technology is not in simply amassing them, it's from choosing one of those 300 versions, loading it on your computer, and using it to accomplish something useful to you. There is no real value realized until then (unless you have a first edition Yggdrasil CD to put on eBay). >You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker champ. > Somewhere deeply buried here is an attempt to make some point about scarcity of resources and the foundation for human incentives. Most of these points have been made before, and debated at length, including the very real difference between cost and value. I'm not meaning to belittle Teddy's opinions, but I'm having a very hard time finding something substantive with which to agree, disagree or debate. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:21:17 2005 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kihara Muriithi) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:21:17 -0500 Subject: Dual booting RH and Ubantu issues + RHCT questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is three options: *Over write everything *Leave existing Windows partation (I have used this in the past) *Leave all the used space and use existing free space. I opted for the last option, then manually pointed it to the free space. (I was doing the install graphically by the way) I haven't tried poking the virtual terminals. I will do so asap when I get home and send info that I will find. WIlliam On 12/28/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > During the install, what choices did you make before the installer crapped out? > If you press ALT-CTRL-F3, F4, F5 do any of the other virtual terminals > have any error message that might be more usefull? > -Joseph- > > On 12/28/05, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > > Hi pals, > > I am planning to attempt RHCT comming Feb and humbly seeks some help. > > I have been using Ubantu since the first release and it has been fun. > > Its however not a good distribution to prepare for RH exams. > > So, a used an ubantu live CD and created a free partation using > > parted. (Using second hard drive is impractical as I am using a > > laptop). Then I used a Fedora 4 DVD from the book "Red Hat Fedora 4 > > unleashed" ISBN 0-672-32792-9 and pointed it to the free partation and > > thats where I am having issues. I bail out claiming the free space is > > not a boot partation. This was a surprise as I have done a couple of > > Windows 2000 and Red hat 8 dual boots sometimes back in the same way. > > Now, what the best way to go around this problem? I am nervous forcing > > the free space to be a boot partation may result to a loss of my files > > on Ubantu partation > > Oh, this is how the drive is partationed. 1,2 and 3 are primary > > partation. 1 is the largest and houses Ubantu. 2 is an ex3 partation > > that currently houses nothing. I intended to install Fedora there, but > > turned out to be too dinky. The third partation is 8 GB free space and > > its where I am trying to install Fedora 4. there is two other extended > > partation that will house swap data for both install instances - well > > if I do overcome this issue. Please help, as documents out there > > assume one can only dual boot a distributon with Windows > > > > This year, I understand one need to learn XFEE 86. I understand they > > will be changing that to Xorg sometime next year. Since X server is a > > substantial part in RH exams, does anyone know when they will seize > > using Xfee 86 on their exams? > > > > I am unfortunate not to have worked on a productive network and > > therefore have little of SCSI experience. (I have read a lot about it > > though). What is the chance of someone passing RH exams without > > touching a scsi drive? And would anyone know a company/organization > > that are Linux intensive and can accomodate someone for two months > > free or for a fee? I am nervous I may end up loosing 2,300 dollars if > > I don't have enough practice on a productive system. I live in North > > York, but willing to travel as far as Mississauga if needs be. > > > > I would be grateful for any help and thank you a lot in advance > > > > William > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:28:03 2005 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:28:03 -0500 Subject: Palm Pilot Sync Message-ID: <43B2CB23.6040106@sympatico.ca> Here's hoping everyone had a good Christmas and I hope 2006 brings prosperity, especially to those now finding themselves in a bit of need. Sorry for the long post, but I've done a lot of pasting to clarify things. I had no trouble syncronising my USB Palm Pilot (Zire 71) in Mandrake 10.1, but had one heck of a time doing it in FC4. After many hours of frustration and with the help of TLUG archives and the Hanspring-Visor mini HOWTO, I finally succeeded using the pilot-link command line - ONCE!!! As soon as the palm was turned off, I couldn't make it sync without starting the whole process over again. It all boils down to the devices and nodes I created not sticking around after the palm is shut down. The palm is recognized when I press the hotsync button. This is what I get from dmesg: visor 1-2.2:1.0: Handspring Visor / Palm OS converter detected usb 1-2.2: Handspring Visor / Palm OS converter now attached to ttyUSB0 usb 1-2.2: Handspring Visor / Palm OS converter now attached to ttyUSB1 usbcore: registered new driver visor drivers/usb/serial/visor.c: USB HandSpring Visor / Palm OS driver v2.1 Following the instructions of the HOWTO, here's what I did: 1) Added the following line to my fstab file: none /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs defaults 0 0 2) Added the following nodes: mknod /dev/ttyUSB0 c 188 0 mknod /dev/ttyUSB1 c 188 1 chmod 666 /dev/ttyUSB* 3) Linked ttyUSB1 to pilot: ln -s /dev/ttyUSB1 /dev/pilot 4) lsmod indicated that the visor module was loaded. 5) Tried it out: pilot-xfer -p /dev/ttyUSB1 -b visorbackup and it worked, I got a backup of my palm. The problem is that when I shut off the palm, ttyUSB0 and ttyUSB1 have disappeared. The next time I boot, even /dev/pilot has disappeared. None of it comes back when I press the hotsync button. I take it this is something to do with FC4 not using devfs??? How do I keep the USB nodes I created? Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:37:12 2005 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:37:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: An Evening with Jeff Waugh Message-ID: <20051228173712.87412.qmail@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Small note, my latest story, "An Evening with Jeff Waugh" is now up on the Linux Journal website: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8752 The above is a light weight piece about the lecture Jeff Waugh gave at the University of Toronto on November 7th, 2005. Small plugs in the story for Behdad Esfahbod and Sacha Chua. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:40:37 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:40:37 -0500 Subject: Dual booting RH and Ubantu issues + RHCT questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Next time, go ahead and format the partitions the way you want from UBUNTU then do whatever it take to get the option to manually partition the drive. Then, just use the existing partitions without formatting and you should be OK. If the GUI installer does not let you, try the text mode one. RH's installer is not the same for the GUI as the text mode. -Joseph- On 12/28/05, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > There is three options: > > *Over write everything > *Leave existing Windows partation (I have used this in the past) > *Leave all the used space and use existing free space. > > I opted for the last option, then manually pointed it to the free > space. (I was doing the install graphically by the way) > I haven't tried poking the virtual terminals. I will do so asap when > I get home and send info that I will find. > > WIlliam > On 12/28/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > > During the install, what choices did you make before the installer crapped out? > > If you press ALT-CTRL-F3, F4, F5 do any of the other virtual terminals > > have any error message that might be more usefull? > > -Joseph- > > > > On 12/28/05, Kihara Muriithi wrote: > > > Hi pals, > > > I am planning to attempt RHCT comming Feb and humbly seeks some help. > > > I have been using Ubantu since the first release and it has been fun. > > > Its however not a good distribution to prepare for RH exams. > > > So, a used an ubantu live CD and created a free partation using > > > parted. (Using second hard drive is impractical as I am using a > > > laptop). Then I used a Fedora 4 DVD from the book "Red Hat Fedora 4 > > > unleashed" ISBN 0-672-32792-9 and pointed it to the free partation and > > > thats where I am having issues. I bail out claiming the free space is > > > not a boot partation. This was a surprise as I have done a couple of > > > Windows 2000 and Red hat 8 dual boots sometimes back in the same way. > > > Now, what the best way to go around this problem? I am nervous forcing > > > the free space to be a boot partation may result to a loss of my files > > > on Ubantu partation > > > Oh, this is how the drive is partationed. 1,2 and 3 are primary > > > partation. 1 is the largest and houses Ubantu. 2 is an ex3 partation > > > that currently houses nothing. I intended to install Fedora there, but > > > turned out to be too dinky. The third partation is 8 GB free space and > > > its where I am trying to install Fedora 4. there is two other extended > > > partation that will house swap data for both install instances - well > > > if I do overcome this issue. Please help, as documents out there > > > assume one can only dual boot a distributon with Windows > > > > > > This year, I understand one need to learn XFEE 86. I understand they > > > will be changing that to Xorg sometime next year. Since X server is a > > > substantial part in RH exams, does anyone know when they will seize > > > using Xfee 86 on their exams? > > > > > > I am unfortunate not to have worked on a productive network and > > > therefore have little of SCSI experience. (I have read a lot about it > > > though). What is the chance of someone passing RH exams without > > > touching a scsi drive? And would anyone know a company/organization > > > that are Linux intensive and can accomodate someone for two months > > > free or for a fee? I am nervous I may end up loosing 2,300 dollars if > > > I don't have enough practice on a productive system. I live in North > > > York, but willing to travel as far as Mississauga if needs be. > > > > > > I would be grateful for any help and thank you a lot in advance > > > > > > William > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 22:45:25 2005 From: ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Hammond) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:45:25 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0512221754i5d08ed52y669efe311ab00c48-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> <99a6c38f0512221754i5d08ed52y669efe311ab00c48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96B82123-8D49-4E80-84B5-6692D7E9555A@ca.afilias.info> On 22-Dec-05, at 20:54, Scott Elcomb wrote: > In many cases, people are hired by a recruiting team that doesn't have > a clue as to what the job actually entails. They simply work off a > description of the job written on a piece of paper or two. I don't know what the process is at other companies, but here's how we do things for the Data Services department here at Afilias. I give our HR lady the job description (which is mostly for candidates) and a brief description of what I'm looking for. She passes this along to the recruiters. For example: About 7 years industry experience At least 3 years working with databases, preferably postgres 2 years working in a 24x365 production environment comfortable working in and administering a unix / linux environment The recruiters send resumes of potential candidates to our HR lady who forwards them to me. If they look any good, I ask her to give them a call and run through an initial interview. If they meet her approval, then I ask them to come in for an interview, and the process goes from there. The goal is two-fold: 1) To find decent candidates. 2) To defend my time from the incredible flurry of applicants who don't even know what "a unix" is, but sure as heck want the job. We also post to pgsql-jobs, but that seems more oriented towards contract than full time permanent. > Certifications tell these types of people that you know "about this > much" of the skills/information specific to their needs. I don't > think it's a time wasting process; there's some value in getting that > piece of paper. With a few exceptions, certifications tell me that you've got the background for an entry level position and that you cared enough to go get the cert. > Btw - LPI Certs are considerably cheaper than MS Certs, contain much > less advertising, and are somewhat more challenging I think. And guys like me don't get a chuckle out of seeing LPI certs on a resume, unlike some of the MS certs. However, I'm not looking for people to run windows boxes. __________________________________________________ Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org Data Services Group Manager, Afilias Canada Corp. Ltd. CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 23:04:55 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:04:55 -0500 Subject: jobs in Linux / IT In-Reply-To: <96B82123-8D49-4E80-84B5-6692D7E9555A-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw@public.gmane.org> References: <20051221181059.A25573@diamond.ss.org> <20051222055008.2705.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051222134106.GB31927@ettin> <1135280965.5868.3.camel@spot1.localhost.com> <43AB5252.5090309@istop.com> <99a6c38f0512221754i5d08ed52y669efe311ab00c48@mail.gmail.com> <96B82123-8D49-4E80-84B5-6692D7E9555A@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: As it happens, today I transferred from digital camcorder to a .MPG file (may convert it to DVD, if I figure out how) the TLUG presentation someone gave last fall about Linux and the job market, resumes et al. Who was he again? On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 17:45 -0500, Andrew Hammond wrote: > On 22-Dec-05, at 20:54, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > > In many cases, people are hired by a recruiting team that doesn't > > have > > a clue as to what the job actually entails. They simply work off a > > description of the job written on a piece of paper or two. > > > I don't know what the process is at other companies, but here's how we > do things for the Data Services department here at Afilias. I give our > HR lady the job description (which is mostly for candidates) and a > brief description of what I'm looking for. She passes this along to > the recruiters. For example: > > > About 7 years industry experience > At least 3 years working with databases, preferably postgres > 2 years working in a 24x365 production environment > comfortable working in and administering a unix / linux environment > > > The recruiters send resumes of potential candidates to our HR lady who > forwards them to me. If they look any good, I ask her to give them a > call and run through an initial interview. If they meet her approval, > then I ask them to come in for an interview, and the process goes from > there. > > > The goal is two-fold: > 1) To find decent candidates. > 2) To defend my time from the incredible flurry of applicants who > don't even know what "a unix" is, but sure as heck want the job. > > > We also post to pgsql-jobs, but that seems more oriented towards > contract than full time permanent. > > > Certifications tell these types of people that you know "about this > > much" of the skills/information specific to their needs. I don't > > think it's a time wasting process; there's some value in getting > > that > > piece of paper. > > > With a few exceptions, certifications tell me that you've got the > background for an entry level position and that you cared enough to go > get the cert. > > > Btw - LPI Certs are considerably cheaper than MS Certs, contain much > > less advertising, and are somewhat more challenging I think. > > > And guys like me don't get a chuckle out of seeing LPI certs on a > resume, unlike some of the MS certs. However, I'm not looking for > people to run windows boxes. > > > __________________________________________________ > Andrew Hammond 416-673-4138 ahammond-swQf4SbcV9C7WVzo/KQ3Mw at public.gmane.org > Data Services Group Manager, Afilias Canada Corp. Ltd. > CB83 2838 4B67 D40F D086 3568 81FC E7E5 27AF 4A9A > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 00:46:56 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:46:56 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: <43B2C4B6.9080704-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43B2C4B6.9080704@telly.org> Message-ID: On 12/28/05, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > teddy mills wrote: > > >That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you > >dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > > > > > Basic Logic 101 states that if your premise is flawed, most conclusions > based on that premise will also be flawed. There are a lot of > assumptions here to be challenged; whether conventional wisdom or > spur-of-the-moment assertions, I agree with very little of what's been > put forward as a foundation for anything to debate. Economics is quite another matter. Moreover, the move from microeconomics (looking at individual transactions) to macroeconomics (the greater "shape of the economy") is more complex, still. The example of the 10 computers is a pretty good one, actually. The first computer is of great value. Subsequent ones are likely to be of less value; if I bought a few more computers for use at home without some substantial purpose in mind, the last few will be of pretty limited value, to me. At that point, it normally doesn't make sense for me to spend the money to buy those extra computers. They aren't worth as much, to me, in terms of the marginal utility I'll get out of them, than their cost. Someone else should presumably buy them instead, someone that needs them more badly than I. > There is a big difference between a statement being often true and being > a truism. It is a mistake to elevate one's own experiences into > universal constants. Particularly when one's experiences are more like "economic transactions," where millions of varying transactions are continually taking place. > >If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very little to you. > > > If you have 10 computer users in your family, or if each serves a unique > purpose, losing one will certainly mean something. The first few computers are likely to be of vital value. If you're not using them to capacity, the later ones are probably a lot less valuable, possibly not valuable at all. > >Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > > > > > I can't disagree more. I use the library because there are books I want > to read but don't need to own. The fact that I don't directly pay for > the borrowing privilege does not make the books themselves less > valuable. The last book I borrowed was a university textbook that was > only available as a $200 hardcover. The book has value to me, but so > does the library offer value to me by making the borrowing facility > available. The fact that the book was on the shelves and didn't needed > to be on hold does not make the book more or less valuable. > > >This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value system. > > > > > This only peripherally touches on Linux's problem with the human reward > value system. Indeed, I would suggest that this "problem" is one that > many other fields would covet. The trouble is one whose root may be more attainable if we look at it from the perspective of economics. The first copy of a piece of computer software tends to be exceedingly costly, as there is likely to be considerable development effort. When distributed under traditional proprietary arrangements, either: a) The user pays for the bespoke software that they paid to have developed, or b) Each users pays a licensing fee for access to their copy. With free software, someone that values having the software developed pays for it to get produced, and then numerous users can freely use it without paying further. People have a strange habit of considering values of things to be somehow proportional to the price they pay for them. There are many evidences out there that this is nonsense, but they still do so. Furthermore, people are downright Stupidly Irrational when it gets to the notion of "sunk costs." Once they have spent money that can't be returned, it is rational to *IGNORE* that sort of cost. But people are stupid that way, and will stay with things that they threw money at based on the misperception that they are trying to "get value on their investment." > >Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > > > > > Bad premise, bad conclusion. > > Not only is there a way, but such way is in use. That way is what gave > you Linux and sendmail and so much else of what is in the open source world. It's not totally a bad question. The better question is how to get people to invest in getting free software produced. If they invest in it, that whole stupidity about "sunk costs" will suck them into committing to it :-). How to get it to work is a toughie. Throwing money at projects to try to get something to stick is never guaranteed to work out. The company I work for invested quite a bit of money in a OSS project this year, only to discover that what was being attempted couldn't work. Alas, you can't predict these things ahead of time; sometimes you have to do some work to figure out what *won't* work. My own keen "Holiday project" is to send some small gifts to encourage some developers. That'll be more at the level of morale boosting than of true economic support. > Somewhere deeply buried here is an attempt to make some point about > scarcity of resources and the foundation for human incentives. Most of > these points have been made before, and debated at length, including the > very real difference between cost and value. > > I'm not meaning to belittle Teddy's opinions, but I'm having a very hard > time finding something substantive with which to agree, disagree or debate. There's a scarcity of time, and that limits peoples' ability to try things out. Jamie Zawinski (an early Netscape employee, involved with writing Lucid Emacs which is now XEmacs, author of xscreensaver, and other stuff) says that "Linux is only free if your time has no value." He's got a point; figuring out how to use Linux and such does have a cost in terms of devoting time to figure it out, particularly when documentation is fragmentary, wrong, or non-existent, as is all too common. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 00:50:19 2005 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:50:19 -0500 Subject: Palm Pilot Sync In-Reply-To: <43B2CB23.6040106-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43B2CB23.6040106@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <43B332CB.7040906@utoronto.ca> John Moniz wrote: ----------------- snip ------------------------------------------------ > > I take it this is something to do with FC4 not using devfs??? How do I > keep the USB nodes I created? ------------------ snip ----------------------------------------------- It is my understanding that devfs has been supplanted be udev. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 03:51:52 2005 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:51:52 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: References: <43B2C4B6.9080704@telly.org> Message-ID: <43B35D58.7050809@telly.org> Christopher Browne wrote: >There's a scarcity of time, and that limits peoples' ability to try >things out. Jamie Zawinski (an early Netscape employee, involved with >writing Lucid Emacs which is now XEmacs, author of xscreensaver, and >other stuff) says that "Linux is only free if your time has no value." > > And so....? The concepts of volunteerism and community service was not invented by software developers. Giving your valuable time to your club, your church, the local foodbank or a youth hockey league is hardly a novel concept. People like to contribute their time and effort in ways that serve other than personal selfish interest, and a significant component of open source (and almost all of its genesis) owes its existence to such personal philanthropism. Religious institutions constantly concern themselves with recruitment and maintenance of volunteer resources. So do the United Way and the Red Cross. Tasks which volunteers can't or won't do, yet still need to be done, have to be compensated in other means than pride. Sponsors need to be found to fund projects that serve the public good, to augment the work of volunteers and/or to serve the self-interested philanthropy of the sponsors. And so it is with open source. Many volunteers exist, yet we have groups like the OSDL which exist to fund open source projects that advance the collective agenda of their sponsors. Of course peoples' time is valuable. But the fact that you can't get a tax receipt for the time you spent directing the neighbourhood production of "Death of a Salesman" doesn't stop people from doing the job without financial compensation. For more information on volunteerism in Canada see http://www.nsgvp.org/ >He's got a point; figuring out how to use Linux and such does have a cost in terms of devoting time to figure it out, particularly when documentation is fragmentary, wrong, or non-existent, as is all too common. > > That's a very laboured way to get to a point that pretty-well all of the open source world has come to understand by now. I don't know of anyone these days who says that open source is free of any cost. Indeed, in most contexts the use of "free" in "free software" refers to freedom, or at worst free-to-download, but not cost to use/develop. Indeed, one of the reasons for the creation of the phrase "open source" (and the ensuing linguistic politics that followed) came from the desire of the community _not_ to have its work devalued by people who wouldn't understand the _intended_ context of "free". This is more a language issue than anything else -- in French it's called "logiciel libre", not "logiciel gratuit". (Ironically, the people who speak most passionately about the ethical superiority of open source, rather than just the practical benefit, tend to prefer the term "free software". This tends to get them caught in the whole free-speech-versus-free-beer mess more than people who use the term "open source". See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html for more.) The case can be made that many open source solutions do cost less than their proprietary counterparts, but I haven't in years heard anyone who knows what they're talking about claiming that using open source is free of cost. I would suggest that the only remaining assertions of the notion that open source is "free of cost" come from enemies of open source, who are trying to put those words in the community's collective mouth. Once done, they can (rather easily) refute their projection of the community's mindset. So, when we made the (IMO self-evident within the community) assertion that "using open source has cost", exactly whom are we arguing with? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 04:01:21 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:01:21 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: <43B2C4B6.9080704-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <43B2C4B6.9080704@telly.org> Message-ID: I am not sure if Evan is correctly understanding what I am trying to say. I reviewed his comments, but I differ on his views of my original message. On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 12:00 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > teddy mills wrote: > > >That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you > >dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > > > > > Basic Logic 101 states that if your premise is flawed, most conclusions > based on that premise will also be flawed. There are a lot of > assumptions here to be challenged; whether conventional wisdom or > spur-of-the-moment assertions, I agree with very little of what's been > put forward as a foundation for anything to debate. > > There is a big difference between a statement being often true and being > a truism. It is a mistake to elevate one's own experiences into > universal constants. > > >If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very little to you. > > > If you have 10 computer users in your family, or if each serves a unique > purpose, losing one will certainly mean something. > > >The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. > > > Then again, if a lot of it was downloaded from other sites, it's not > necessarily difficult to recover. > > >A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. > > > > > Again, true in some cases, but not all. Some people *do* love what they > do and give value to it beyond the pay. As I went through journalism > school, I found that getting one's name in print or one's face on the > air would motivate people to work for far less than their market value. > Media outlets, of course, exploit this vanity. > > As for the specific example, my son works part time at Blockbuster > _because_ he loves movies. He can rent 10 movies a week for free and > takes maximum advantage of the perk. His knowledge and ability to talk > about movies makes him more valuable to his employer, but he gets a > genuine thrill about recommending good stuff and keeping people away > from crap. > > >Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > > > > > I can't disagree more. I use the library because there are books I want > to read but don't need to own. The fact that I don't directly pay for > the borrowing privilege does not make the books themselves less > valuable. The last book I borrowed was a university textbook that was > only available as a $200 hardcover. The book has value to me, but so > does the library offer value to me by making the borrowing facility > available. The fact that the book was on the shelves and didn't needed > to be on hold does not make the book more or less valuable. > > >This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value system. > > > > > This only peripherally touches on Linux's problem with the human reward > value system. Indeed, I would suggest that this "problem" is one that > many other fields would covet. > > >Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > > > > > Bad premise, bad conclusion. > > Not only is there a way, but such way is in use. That way is what gave > you Linux and sendmail and so much else of what is in the open source world. > > >We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. > > > The value of such technology is not in simply amassing them, it's from > choosing one of those 300 versions, loading it on your computer, and > using it to accomplish something useful to you. There is no real value > realized until then (unless you have a first edition Yggdrasil CD to put > on eBay). > > >You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker champ. > > > Somewhere deeply buried here is an attempt to make some point about > scarcity of resources and the foundation for human incentives. Most of > these points have been made before, and debated at length, including the > very real difference between cost and value. > > I'm not meaning to belittle Teddy's opinions, but I'm having a very hard > time finding something substantive with which to agree, disagree or debate. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 08:23:32 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 04:23:32 -0400 (AST) Subject: An Evening with Jeff Waugh In-Reply-To: <20051228173712.87412.qmail-7EKNVtTItHqB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20051228173712.87412.qmail@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the update, Colin. A good write-up for those who missed the talk (like me). Cheers, TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Colin McGregor wrote: > Small note, my latest story, "An Evening with Jeff > Waugh" is now up on the Linux Journal website: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8752 > > The above is a light weight piece about the lecture > Jeff Waugh gave at the University of Toronto on > November 7th, 2005. Small plugs in the story for > Behdad Esfahbod and Sacha Chua. > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 10:47:34 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 05:47:34 -0500 Subject: Sterilizing free space In-Reply-To: <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> References: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470@mail.gmail.com> <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> Message-ID: <1e55af990512290247k12c7778bkd5453259045fb006@mail.gmail.com> On 12/28/05, Neil Watson wrote: > Why not fill the drive with a single file and then securely erase it? > > Keep in mind that there is debate as to whether or not you can ever > securely erase information from a journaled file system. Aah yes, a secure file wipe is an option. I'll check out bcwipe. I hope that works. Certainly filling an entire unused partition with one single file would do it. Why would I be forced to create that file? Why not magically whip up a file of the right size? I had a nice DOS program which could do that, called "empty" which was rediculously fast.. is there a unixlike way of doing this? I'm aware of the journalized filesystem issue with secure file wiping, but that's generally for deleting odd files in a live filesystem which has lots of free space. I'd be willing to shut things down to do a proper wipe. Joe: You're right about mounting in ext2. That's a good idea for a system which has data on it already. I don't/won't ever use Reiser. Too many good people have had too many bad experiences. Plus I've put ext2/3 through hell and it's come out smoking but unburnt. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 10:57:38 2005 From: lfeder-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 05:57:38 -0500 Subject: ot-no free lunch In-Reply-To: <1135828881.6804.4.camel-LwQTrTZM4/icvWdFBKKxig@public.gmane.org> References: <43B2C4B6.9080704@telly.org> <1135828881.6804.4.camel@vger4.dyndns.org> Message-ID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-free-lunch_theorem http://atheism.about.com/b/a/075366.htm http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,95365,00.html http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl? sid=04/03/06/139232&tid=149&tid=29&tid=31 Wow! This NFL-No Free Lunch phrase and theory has a wide variety of everyday uses and applications. I was using the NFL from animal behavior/training. Then there are a lot of IT companies using NFL to describe the Linux open source model. Then there is a No Free Lunch branch of mathematics and theory. The No Free Lunch theory and how it applies to all computer algorithms is fascinating. Equally fascinating is the NFL thoerem applied to biological systems like evolution. However, the argument it states NFL is not applicable to evolution, since evolution is not trying to reach a pre-defined goal. (sort of) Basically it seems, they are all related. No Free Lunch theory is applicable to so many everyday things. There is no free lunch! So is this why google and all the search engines dont work as well as you'd like? :) /teddy On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 23:01 -0500, teddy mills wrote: > > I am not sure if Evan is correctly understanding what I am trying to > say. > I reviewed his comments, but I differ on his views of my original > message. > > > > > > On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 12:00 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > teddy mills wrote: > > > > >That basically means as I understand it, anything that is free, or you > > >dont have to work for it, has no or very little value to you. > > > > > > > > Basic Logic 101 states that if your premise is flawed, most conclusions > > based on that premise will also be flawed. There are a lot of > > assumptions here to be challenged; whether conventional wisdom or > > spur-of-the-moment assertions, I agree with very little of what's been > > put forward as a foundation for anything to debate. > > > > There is a big difference between a statement being often true and being > > a truism. It is a mistake to elevate one's own experiences into > > universal constants. > > > > >If you have 10 computers, getting or giving up a computer means very little to you. > > > > > If you have 10 computer users in your family, or if each serves a unique > > purpose, losing one will certainly mean something. > > > > >The DATA on the computer may mean a LOT to you because YOU HAD TO WORK, perhaps a lot, to get that DATA. > > > > > Then again, if a lot of it was downloaded from other sites, it's not > > necessarily difficult to recover. > > > > >A video store owner cares nothing about renting movies. He or she is sick of movies. He/she would rather read a good book. > > > > > > > > Again, true in some cases, but not all. Some people *do* love what they > > do and give value to it beyond the pay. As I went through journalism > > school, I found that getting one's name in print or one's face on the > > air would motivate people to work for far less than their market value. > > Media outlets, of course, exploit this vanity. > > > > As for the specific example, my son works part time at Blockbuster > > _because_ he loves movies. He can rent 10 movies a week for free and > > takes maximum advantage of the perk. His knowledge and ability to talk > > about movies makes him more valuable to his employer, but he gets a > > genuine thrill about recommending good stuff and keeping people away > > from crap. > > > > >Think of anything you have a lot of, or can get for free. Books at the library I dont care about. I can get them anytime! I care about them when they are on hold for me, because I went to the effort of searching, and then waiting, and making the trip to get the book on hold. I had to invest some work, even though the book itself was free. > > > > > > > > I can't disagree more. I use the library because there are books I want > > to read but don't need to own. The fact that I don't directly pay for > > the borrowing privilege does not make the books themselves less > > valuable. The last book I borrowed was a university textbook that was > > only available as a $200 hardcover. The book has value to me, but so > > does the library offer value to me by making the borrowing facility > > available. The fact that the book was on the shelves and didn't needed > > to be on hold does not make the book more or less valuable. > > > > >This is what Linux is having a problem with the human reward/value system. > > > > > > > > This only peripherally touches on Linux's problem with the human reward > > value system. Indeed, I would suggest that this "problem" is one that > > many other fields would covet. > > > > >Is there a way to make people "invest" some time and effort so they can get their "book (ie. linux) for free, but now assign a great deal of value to it? *much like getting a free library book thats on hold ?) > > > > > > > > Bad premise, bad conclusion. > > > > Not only is there a way, but such way is in use. That way is what gave > > you Linux and sendmail and so much else of what is in the open source world. > > > > >We can download and install almost 300 different versions of Linux. For the cost of some time, and about $1 in CDs. > > > > > The value of such technology is not in simply amassing them, it's from > > choosing one of those 300 versions, loading it on your computer, and > > using it to accomplish something useful to you. There is no real value > > realized until then (unless you have a first edition Yggdrasil CD to put > > on eBay). > > > > >You can give someone a deck of cards, but you cannot force them to be the Poker World Champion. They have to want to become the World poker champ. > > > > > Somewhere deeply buried here is an attempt to make some point about > > scarcity of resources and the foundation for human incentives. Most of > > these points have been made before, and debated at length, including the > > very real difference between cost and value. > > > > I'm not meaning to belittle Teddy's opinions, but I'm having a very hard > > time finding something substantive with which to agree, disagree or debate. > > > > - Evan > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 14:46:11 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:46:11 -0500 Subject: Sterilizing free space In-Reply-To: <1e55af990512290247k12c7778bkd5453259045fb006-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1e55af990512261354t1d8721ddn513afc2936f67470@mail.gmail.com> <20051228162142.GA21561@ettin> <1e55af990512290247k12c7778bkd5453259045fb006@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e55af990512290646w36c7976fl9cf90f80fdc1afac@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the help. This command generated a nice big zerofile from which I can do standard file sterilization. cat /dev/zero > /mnt//zerofile Doing this to two partitions of the same size gave me a curiosity. Both partitions had cat report running out of space and yet df --block-size=1 reported: * Partition 1: 9844854784 with 9843179520 used * Partition 2: 9844854784 with 9843236864 used In both cases I made the zerofile while the partition was mounted as ext3. I'm going to check out bcwipe now. I had a note on it but ignored it because I didn't know it was freely available to try. I took some notes over here: http://jrandomhacker.info/Data_sterilization -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 15:08:37 2005 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:08:37 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language Message-ID: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> Hello I wonder how this might get past some of you. I know that there are several high schools that teach ActionScript as part of a Grade 11 comptuer science course. That being said, that would make it a second language for many students. Grade 11 introduces them to OOP, by the way. While there is much about Flash and ActionScript that might sound attractive as something fun to give to teenagers, am I the only one that has problems with this? First of all, ActionScript not only requires you to learn a language, but it also requires quite a conceptual familiarity with Flash's animations, "layers", to say nothing of the general interface. I also feel that a language that finds statements such as x = "1" + 2; // "1" is converted to a number and added to 2 message.text = "The answer is " + x; // converts x to string and concatenates as being acceptable will probably confuse students more than teach them. I understand that there seems to be a big push for this in the schools, mostly driven by the Computer Science teachers themselves. The reason given is they are afraid that giving them a real teaching language such as Turing or Pascal will cause students to lose interest and the Computer Science enrollment will dwindle. Frankly, I can't see the "fun" in teaching a language that constantly throws illogicality into its syntax rules which teachers are trying to teach them. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 15:39:37 2005 From: denisov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Igor Denisov) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:39:37 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> Message-ID: <96aa4e8f0512290739tf91eefch7059ee054b55c463@mail.gmail.com> > I wonder how this might get past some of you. I know that there are several high > schools that teach ActionScript as part of a Grade 11 comptuer science course. > That being said, that would make it a second language for many students. Grade 11 > introduces them to OOP, by the way. Using ActionScript in this context is quite the good idea. As mentioned in the "Open Source in High Schools" thread, the current trend in high school CS is towards flashy "cool" things. Flash is exactly that. Students might gain an appreciation of ActionScript/programming over drawing when animations made using ActionScript transformations take up several orders less disk space that the hand-animated versions of the same and needed only a fraction of the time to code. > x = "1" + 2; // "1" is converted to a number and added to 2 > message.text = "The answer is " + x; // converts x to string and concatenates ActionScript isn't that difficult to pick up either (as long as the objects are named in a way that you can remember). As long as the CS teachers don't require that each line is commented in the way you did, the entire experience should be quite enjoyable for the type of student that takes grade 11 CS. Also, considering how popular sites like newgrounds.com (used to be mostly Flash games and animations) are with the high school crowd, a course where Flash is taught at a higher than "draw a box and animate it" level will be quite popular. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 15:59:30 2005 From: david-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ at public.gmane.org (David Thornton) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:59:30 +0000 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <20051227070330.GC7946-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512260527l4663d9d1pe5ffbada40c170dc@mail.gmail.com> <20051227070330.GC7946@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <43B407E2.8090107@quadratic.net> I'm with Walter. linux != Windows Linux is not an open system so that you can treat it like a closed system. You reboot windows because you CAN'T know what's going on. Under a freenix you CAN know what's going on and you should. hmm... on second though this is a bit of OSS Snoobery on my part. You can learn "what's up" on a solaris system much better than on a windows system. I can't speak to AIX , SCO, HP-UX et al. It's good to be skeptical of a setup ( even one you created yourself). It's not good to believe you can't figure it out. YOU CAN. (Being a sysadmin is not rocket science.) I had the exact same issue on my server ( df / du mismatches.) I simply stopped each service that was using files on var... then I umounted it and remounted it. Problem gone. system uptime intact. I had a permission problem in my syslog-ng setup. Problem found and fixed. System better. I've been running gentoo for more than a year. Others have said : Gentoo is nothing more than an experiment. I agree. so far so good. I have gotten into crazy situations and I have gotten out of them.. speaking of which does anyone know why there are so many versions of automake and autoconf installed as part of the base install? David Walter Dnes wrote: >On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 08:27:29AM -0500, Sy Ali wrote > > >>Upon rebooting, my mysterious issue went away. >> >> > > Repeat after me... > linux != Windows > Thou shalst not rebooteth > > Since it was syslogd holding the files open (as per your previous >message) all you had to do was to restart syslogd. That should've >released the filespace. There is a "postrotate" clause in logrotate >that can do this for you automatically. I use syslog-ng which uses a >"reload" option; syslogd might use "restart". Check the man pages for >your software. Here's my /etc/logrotate.d/syslog-ng file... > > ># $Header: /var/cvsroot/gentoo-x86/app-admin/syslog-ng/files/syslog-ng.logrotate,v 1.2 2004/07/18 02:25:02 dragonheart Exp $ ># ># Syslog-ng logrotate snippet for Gentoo Linux ># contributed by Michael Sterrett ># > >/var/log/messages { > sharedscripts > postrotate > /etc/init.d/syslog-ng reload > /dev/null 2>&1 || true > endscript >} > > > > -- Let one walk alone, committing no sin with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest. -- Ghost in the shell 2: Innocence -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 18:37:30 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:37:30 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> Message-ID: <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:08:37AM -0500, Paul King wrote: > Hello > > I wonder how this might get past some of you. I know that there are several high > schools that teach ActionScript as part of a Grade 11 comptuer science course. > That being said, that would make it a second language for many students. Grade 11 > introduces them to OOP, by the way. > > While there is much about Flash and ActionScript that might sound attractive as > something fun to give to teenagers, am I the only one that has problems with > this? First of all, ActionScript not only requires you to learn a language, but > it also requires quite a conceptual familiarity with Flash's animations, > "layers", to say nothing of the general interface. I also feel that a language > that finds statements such as > > x = "1" + 2; // "1" is converted to a number and added to 2 > message.text = "The answer is " + x; // converts x to string and concatenates > > as being acceptable will probably confuse students more than teach them. > > I understand that there seems to be a big push for this in the schools, mostly > driven by the Computer Science teachers themselves. The reason given is they are > afraid that giving them a real teaching language such as Turing or Pascal will > cause students to lose interest and the Computer Science enrollment will dwindle. > Frankly, I can't see the "fun" in teaching a language that constantly throws > illogicality into its syntax rules which teachers are trying to teach them. How about Python? It has "OOP" stuff, but it can be taught as procedural to start. In fact, for Grade 11, even Awk is sufficient. Awk syntax is like C, so you can teach C very easily afterwards. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 20:03:10 2005 From: zhunt-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:03:10 -0600 Subject: How about Javascript? Re:ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <20051229183730.GA2584-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43B440FE.7050402@zee4.com> William Park wrote: >On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 10:08:37AM -0500, Paul King wrote: > > >>Hello >> >>I wonder how this might get past some of you. I know that there are several high >>schools that teach ActionScript as part of a Grade 11 comptuer science course. >>That being said, that would make it a second language for many students. Grade 11 >>introduces them to OOP, by the way. >> >>While there is much about Flash and ActionScript that might sound attractive as >>something fun to give to teenagers, am I the only one that has problems with >>this? First of all, ActionScript not only requires you to learn a language, but >>it also requires quite a conceptual familiarity with Flash's animations, >>"layers", to say nothing of the general interface. I also feel that a language >>that finds statements such as >> >> x = "1" + 2; // "1" is converted to a number and added to 2 >> message.text = "The answer is " + x; // converts x to string and concatenates >> >>as being acceptable will probably confuse students more than teach them. >> >>I understand that there seems to be a big push for this in the schools, mostly >>driven by the Computer Science teachers themselves. The reason given is they are >>afraid that giving them a real teaching language such as Turing or Pascal will >>cause students to lose interest and the Computer Science enrollment will dwindle. >>Frankly, I can't see the "fun" in teaching a language that constantly throws >>illogicality into its syntax rules which teachers are trying to teach them. >> >> > >How about Python? It has "OOP" stuff, but it can be taught as >procedural to start. > >In fact, for Grade 11, even Awk is sufficient. Awk syntax is like C, so >you can teach C very easily afterwards. > > > IMHO I don't know if students would be that confused with statements like "x = "1" + 2" anymore, I know, coming from a C background, the fist time I saw stuff like this in PHP, it caught my attention, though if you don't come to a language with the idea that something is either a number or a string, maybe it makes sense. Even in PHP I still make sure I initialize a variables (most of the time), out of habit just because every language I used when I was learning required it (and it's still a good idea, even if PHP doesn't enforce it). Students coming to programming now probably don't have those assumptions. If you're looking for language suggestions, another idea might be Javascript with Firefox 1.5. Javascript is certainly a OO language (though you can do things procedurally as well, and apparently some people say you can write in a functional style as well) and it's got real-world applications, certainly if students wanted to get into web design (certainly true with Flash/Actionscript). The reason I include FF1.5 is that that you have the and SVG stuff to play with. I know when I was learning to program in high school, trying to write a game was what kept me interested. Firefox also has a bunch of free development tools (inc. a Javascript debugger) so the costs of (legally) equipping a class full of students with a development environment is that much lower. Zoltan -- www.YYZTech.ca Toronto talks tech. www.Dine.TO Toronto's premier restaurant search engine. Get Thunderbird -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 22:20:56 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:20:56 -0500 Subject: Optimized distro for i686 Message-ID: I just have a question regarding a distro I ran across from distrowatch, called Fox Linux (http://www.foxlinux.org/) that says it is "optimized for i686"... does this mean not only using the 686 kernel, but recompiled packages as well? I could not find any details on their website to explain further. It looks pretty interesting, being a KDE distro based on FC4. I guess I am curious as to what is involved in "optimizing" a distro for a certain CPU/platform. Thanks for any explanation on this topic, and Happy New Year to everyone! -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 02:04:33 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:04:33 -0500 Subject: Optimized distro for i686 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/29/05, Steve wrote: > I guess I am curious as to what is involved in "optimizing" a distro > for a certain CPU/platform. This tends to be about setting up compiler flags and possibly compiling things using some fairly exactly chosen version of GCC. A lot of it is snakeoil; generic 386/486 code tends to be "self-optimized" by running it on those fancy new processors. The potential "big wins" tend to come if you can take specific advantage of extra registers, stuff like Intel's MMX extensions and similar DSP-like systems on the recent chips. Unfortunately, the patterns that could be mapped onto MMX are things that compilers don't generally get written in such a way that they can detect them. So the way you could take advantage of MMX, 3DNow, AltiVec and such is if someone has written a library (e.g. - for playing MP3 or Ogg Vorbis) that uses those special instructions. There would definitely be merit to recompiling for AMD64 even if you could still run 32 bit code there; AMD64 offers a bunch more registers, which can certainly lead to faster code as more data can stay on the CPU and not be spilled to slow memory. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 06:41:03 2005 From: Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Stan Witkowski) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:41:03 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051230013941.03b34370@mail.the-wire.com> Related (teaching how to program)... Joel Spolsky talks about this in: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html The Perils of JavaSchools By Joel Spolsky Thursday, December 29, 2005 Joel's article also refers to: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html which I reread at least every other month, and Graham's entire site at least twice a year. (Paul Graham and Robert Morris created a startup in 1995 that allowed one to create an online store via a web browser. They sold it to Yahoo for US$47 million three years later.) Stan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 10:20:20 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 05:20:20 -0500 Subject: var is mysteriously clogged In-Reply-To: <43B407E2.8090107-FkEgs2FKm2NvBvnq28/GKQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200512260634.jBQ6YGDG068443@localhost.generalconcepts.com> <1e55af990512260432y62c2f5aan3ff2ffa025498f14@mail.gmail.com> <1e55af990512260527l4663d9d1pe5ffbada40c170dc@mail.gmail.com> <20051227070330.GC7946@waltdnes.org> <43B407E2.8090107@quadratic.net> Message-ID: <1e55af990512300220i5789e7a7mdda6ef93491898d9@mail.gmail.com> On 12/29/05, David Thornton wrote: > I'm with Walter. > > linux != Windows > > > Linux is not an open system so that you can treat it like a closed system. > You reboot windows because you CAN'T know what's going on. > Under a freenix you CAN know what's going on and you should. > > hmm... on second though this is a bit of OSS Snoobery on my part. You can learn "what's up" on a solaris system much better than on a windows system. I can't speak to AIX , SCO, HP-UX et al. > > It's good to be skeptical of a setup ( even one you created yourself). It's not good to believe you can't figure it out. > > YOU CAN. > > (Being a sysadmin is not rocket science.) > I had the exact same issue on my server ( df / du mismatches.) > > I simply stopped each service that was using files on var... then I umounted it and remounted it. > > Problem gone. system uptime intact. > > I had a permission problem in my syslog-ng setup. > > Problem found and fixed. System better. > > I've been running gentoo for more than a year. Others have said : Gentoo is nothing more than an experiment. I agree. so far so good. > I have gotten into crazy situations and I have gotten out of them.. > speaking of which does anyone know why there are so many versions of automake and autoconf installed as part of the base install? First: Damned top poster! =p I'm just going to briefly point out to you all how very big a waste of time it's been in my life to "figure things out".. Linux has eaten more of my time than anything else. I no longer want to figure anything out, or be able to fix it next time.. I want to stop wasting so much time. I'd rather migrate towards something that just works, something that's lower maintainance and something that requires less skulking about to comprehend. Having said that, sure I could restart a process if I knew what it was. However because I didn't even realise there could have been a process to blame, I had no way of knowing to troubleshoot that way. Rebooting solved what's probably a one-time issue. If I were to have been anally retentive and tried harder, I would have wasted a spectacular amount of time. Plus, I'd be filling my brain with useless sysadmin knowledge that I don't want. My brain is full and very bruised from many previous late-night sysadminning missions. I give up, I want to be a regular user. I hate having to bend to my tools.. they should work for me instead. I'm going to go off now and write a big fat rant on my computing experiences in the last 15 years. It'll get done sometime this morning (and tweaked randomly), and deposited over here: http://jrandomhacker.info/Usability_over_servicability -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 12:44:23 2005 From: zen14920-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw at public.gmane.org (paul sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:44:23 +0000 Subject: Optimized distro for i686 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B52BA7.7060800@zen.co.uk> You can recompile .src.rpm packatges for a specific processor, I would guess that to optimise FC4 for i686 you could perhaps recompile all the packages, and burn these on to a cdrom along with modified installation routines, which would give you a new cd that is optimised for that specific processor. Ok there is more to it than that, but I have managed to recompile one or two packages for optimisation (from i386 to i586 I think) and then instaled these with no problem. it can take a while to do this to lots of packages, I would be a good idea to perhaps do this at a time when you can leave the computer on for a few hours I would guess you need ALL packages installed so you can avoid problems with dependancies, while compiling. any comments Paul Steve wrote: >I just have a question regarding a distro I ran across from >distrowatch, called Fox Linux (http://www.foxlinux.org/) that says it >is "optimized for i686"... does this mean not only using the 686 >kernel, but recompiled packages as well? I could not find any details >on their website to explain further. It looks pretty interesting, >being a KDE distro based on FC4. > >I guess I am curious as to what is involved in "optimizing" a distro >for a certain CPU/platform. > >Thanks for any explanation on this topic, and Happy New Year to everyone! > >-Steve. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 13:51:46 2005 From: sy1234-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sy Ali) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:51:46 -0500 Subject: Bad Behavior: php scripts to ban harvesters and spammers.. Message-ID: <1e55af990512300551u5f654aa6u305e5e196454bbda@mail.gmail.com> Bad Behavior[1] is a set of scripts analyzes visitors to block them before they gain access to the site.. it's an old idea but it looks like it's been implemented pretty well. There are mediawiki instructions[2] and I'll be checking things out on my own installation before making too strong a recommendation, but it looks pretty sweet. There are bunches of webadmin types lurking about here, so I figured the lot of you might be interested. If anyone has similar tools they have experience with, share! Sy, [1] http://www.ioerror.us/software/bad-behavior/ [2] http://www.ioerror.us/software/bad-behavior/installing-and-using-bad-behavior/on-mediawiki/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 14:07:25 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:07:25 -0500 Subject: Optimized distro for i686 In-Reply-To: <43B52BA7.7060800-1HOZaDBbGgxaa/9Udqfwiw@public.gmane.org> References: <43B52BA7.7060800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/30/05, paul sutton wrote: > You can recompile .src.rpm packatges for a specific processor, I would > guess that to optimise FC4 for i686 you could perhaps recompile all the > packages, and burn these on to a cdrom along with modified installation > routines, which would give you a new cd that is optimised for that > specific processor. > > Ok there is more to it than that, but I have managed to recompile one or > two packages for optimisation (from i386 to i586 I think) and then > instaled these with no problem. > > it can take a while to do this to lots of packages, I would be a good > idea to perhaps do this at a time when you can leave the computer on for > a few hours I would guess you need ALL packages installed so you can > avoid problems with dependancies, while compiling. > > any comments > > Paul Is this pretty much what Gentoo does? So probably the Fox distro people have done these recompiles and therefore will save people the time required to do it themselves. Thanks for the explanation. -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 14:22:55 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:22:55 -0500 Subject: Optimized distro for i686 In-Reply-To: References: <43B52BA7.7060800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Steve wrote: > On 12/30/05, paul sutton wrote: > > You can recompile .src.rpm packatges for a specific processor, I would > > guess that to optimise FC4 for i686 you could perhaps recompile all the > > packages, and burn these on to a cdrom along with modified installation > > routines, which would give you a new cd that is optimised for that > > specific processor. > > > > Ok there is more to it than that, but I have managed to recompile one or > > two packages for optimisation (from i386 to i586 I think) and then > > instaled these with no problem. > > > > it can take a while to do this to lots of packages, I would be a good > > idea to perhaps do this at a time when you can leave the computer on for > > a few hours I would guess you need ALL packages installed so you can > > avoid problems with dependancies, while compiling. > > > > any comments > > > > Paul > > Is this pretty much what Gentoo does? So probably the Fox distro > people have done these recompiles and therefore will save people the > time required to do it themselves. This is pretty much what Gentoo does. The trouble is that sometimes bugs emerge when you use unusual compiler options; figuring out what flags are safe is something of a package-by-package thing. Universally applying all the same compiler options everywhere doesn't work. It's not at all obvious that the result will actually be meaningfully faster. For instance, database apps tend to have disk I/O as their bottleneck, and changing compiler options can't change that. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 14:39:20 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:39:20 -0500 Subject: USB, Bluetooth, VMware Message-ID: Hi, I've got a question regarding USB-Bluetooth dongles (in Ubuntu 5.04 - Hoary). I've got a Sony-Ericsson Bluetooth phone and an Ultra Bluetooth USB dongle. I want to use Sony-Ericsson's sync software to sync my phone to MS Outlook (which is running in Win XP Virtual Machine in VMware 5.5). I start up the Win XP virtual machine, run Outlook, and plug in the USB Bluetooth dongle. I enable this device in VMware and it shows up in the Win XP VM, where I am able to pair it. When I try to sync from Outlook to my phone, an Ubuntu (Gnome) message appears telling me that the host OS has control of the USB device (hci_usb) and to click OK to stop it in order for the guest OS to access it. The problem is that this messes with the syncing and eventually fails, every time. Is there a way to temporarily disable the USB-Bluetooth dongle from Ubuntu so that it passes it through to VMware? Is this related to the hotplug function? Would this mess up my USB mouse? Or, does anyone know of a Linux alternative, which would allow me to sync my Bluetooth phone to something like Evolution? Thanks for any help! -Steve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 16:30:27 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:30:27 -0500 Subject: USB, Bluetooth, VMware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may be able to stop the hotplug daemon before you try to sync, and then restart the hotplug portion. Disabling hotplug won't disable any already inserted USB thingies (like mice). Otherwise, try doing a tail -f /var/log/messages while the whole thing is happening, to see what step is gnome getting so upset about. -Joseph- On 12/30/05, Steve wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a question regarding USB-Bluetooth dongles (in Ubuntu 5.04 - Hoary). > > I've got a Sony-Ericsson Bluetooth phone and an Ultra Bluetooth USB > dongle. I want to use Sony-Ericsson's sync software to sync my phone > to MS Outlook (which is running in Win XP Virtual Machine in VMware > 5.5). > > I start up the Win XP virtual machine, run Outlook, and plug in the > USB Bluetooth dongle. I enable this device in VMware and it shows up > in the Win XP VM, where I am able to pair it. When I try to sync from > Outlook to my phone, an Ubuntu (Gnome) message appears telling me that > the host OS has control of the USB device (hci_usb) and to click OK to > stop it in order for the guest OS to access it. The problem is that > this messes with the syncing and eventually fails, every time. > > Is there a way to temporarily disable the USB-Bluetooth dongle from > Ubuntu so that it passes it through to VMware? Is this related to the > hotplug function? Would this mess up my USB mouse? > > Or, does anyone know of a Linux alternative, which would allow me to > sync my Bluetooth phone to something like Evolution? > > Thanks for any help! > > -Steve. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 16:39:14 2005 From: bassix-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:39:14 -0500 Subject: USB, Bluetooth, VMware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > You may be able to stop the hotplug daemon before you try to sync, and > then restart the hotplug portion. > Disabling hotplug won't disable any already inserted USB thingies (like mice). What is the command to stop and start the hotplug daemon? I'm thinking this might work, as the message comes up every time a new bluetooth connection is established (not just when plugging in the USB dongle). Thanks. -Seve. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 16:41:34 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:41:34 -0500 Subject: USB, Bluetooth, VMware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no idea with regard to Ubuntu. -Joseph- On 12/30/05, Steve wrote: > On 12/30/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > > You may be able to stop the hotplug daemon before you try to sync, and > > then restart the hotplug portion. > > Disabling hotplug won't disable any already inserted USB thingies (like mice). > > What is the command to stop and start the hotplug daemon? I'm thinking > this might work, as the message comes up every time a new bluetooth > connection is established (not just when plugging in the USB dongle). > > Thanks. > > -Seve. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 16:49:07 2005 From: jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:49:07 -0500 Subject: ***SPAM*** Re:USB, Bluetooth, VMware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512301149.07857.jason@detachednetworks.ca> On Friday 30 December 2005 11:39, Steve wrote: > On 12/30/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > > You may be able to stop the hotplug daemon before you try to sync, and > > then restart the hotplug portion. > > Disabling hotplug won't disable any already inserted USB thingies (like > > mice). > > What is the command to stop and start the hotplug daemon? I'm thinking > this might work, as the message comes up every time a new bluetooth > connection is established (not just when plugging in the USB dongle). > For Ubuntu sudo /etc/init.d/hotplug stop -- Jason Shein Director of Networking, Operations and Systems Detached Networks jason-xgs8i/e9EeWTtA8H5PvdGCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org ( 905 ) - 876 - 4158 Voice ( 905 ) - 876 - 5817 Mobile http://www.detachednetworks.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 20:21:36 2005 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:21:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Optimized distro for i686 In-Reply-To: References: <43B52BA7.7060800@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <60954.66.11.182.5.1135974096.squirrel@cbits.ca> > On 12/30/05, Steve wrote: >> On 12/30/05, paul sutton wrote: >> > You can recompile .src.rpm packatges for a specific processor, I >> would >> > guess that to optimise FC4 for i686 you could perhaps recompile all >> the >> > packages, and burn these on to a cdrom along with modified >> installation >> > routines, which would give you a new cd that is optimised for that >> > specific processor. >> > >> > Ok there is more to it than that, but I have managed to recompile one >> or >> > two packages for optimisation (from i386 to i586 I think) and then >> > instaled these with no problem. >> > >> > it can take a while to do this to lots of packages, I would be a good >> > idea to perhaps do this at a time when you can leave the computer on >> for >> > a few hours I would guess you need ALL packages installed so you can >> > avoid problems with dependancies, while compiling. >> > >> > any comments >> > >> > Paul >> >> Is this pretty much what Gentoo does? So probably the Fox distro >> people have done these recompiles and therefore will save people the >> time required to do it themselves. > > This is pretty much what Gentoo does. > > The trouble is that sometimes bugs emerge when you use unusual > compiler options; figuring out what flags are safe is something of a > package-by-package thing. Universally applying all the same compiler > options everywhere doesn't work. I use the following compiler options on Gentoo and everything works fine CFLAGS="-O3 -march=athlon-xp -pipe -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -m3dnow -mmmx -msse" > It's not at all obvious that the result will actually be meaningfully > faster. For instance, database apps tend to have disk I/O as their > bottleneck, and changing compiler options can't change that. > -- > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html > "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him > absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 01:01:37 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:01:37 -0500 Subject: Burning m2t MPEG2 Transport Streams to DVD Message-ID: <43B5D871.1010405@sympatico.ca> Is there a simple way to create a DVD from one of these files? I got it from a relative's DV camera; I also believe that these are used for the raw data streams from HDTV boxes. thanks, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 04:33:33 2005 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:33:33 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <20051229183730.GA2584-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 12/29/05, William Park wrote: > How about Python? It has "OOP" stuff, but it can be taught as > procedural to start. Ruby would also be a pretty good choice, with the difference that it is "inherently OOP." > In fact, for Grade 11, even Awk is sufficient. Awk syntax is like C, so > you can teach C very easily afterwards. Having associative arrays and regular expressions in the "base language" would make C a pretty big step down from Awk. In any case, Awk is only marginally less "dead" than Latin; I don't think too many Grade 11 classes will be using it. -- http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 11:17:49 2005 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 06:17:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Christopher Browne wrote: > > Awk is only marginally less "dead" than Latin; Nonsense. It is used everyday by shell scripters. The comp.lang.awk newsgroups is active, and there is also much discussion of awk in comp.unix.shell. > I don't think too many Grade 11 classes will be using it. They should. -- Chris F.A. Johnson =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 13:21:03 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:21:03 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <43B685BF.70903@sympatico.ca> While I'm normally a huge awk booster, and my awk-fu skills get heavy use in meteorological data munging, it wouldn't make a very good general-purpose first language. Its operational mode (basically, execute this program for every line of the input) only works well for text stream processing. If your learners are doing that, it's a very quick language to teach/learn. I used to teach it to lexicographers for processing dictionary text, and they always astonished me how well they took to it. If I were to be teaching a language, I'd want: * block structure * painless associative arrays/hashes (computers aren't just about numbers) * typelessness, for the most part (1 equals "1"; don't make me have to worry about details) * flexible and obvious data structure definition/use (I love Perl's flexibility here, but the syntax would be odious to explain) * simple graphics capabilities (maybe I'm showing my age here, but the ability to draw stuff without having to worry about OS dependencies would be a big help; people like pretty pictures) * copious and sensible debugging/error messages. OO and other dogma can come later. This would be for teaching regular folks (not computer-scientists-to-be) that you can make computers do the things that you want, not just obey some application's set of rules. Incidentally, I haven't yet found one language that does all that, and I've been looking for about 20 years. In my mind, I'm seeing a Perl/GFA Basic/PostScript sort-of hybrid, and it's looking just as nasty to me as it does to you. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 13:42:17 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:42:17 +0200 (IST) Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <43B685BF.70903-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> <43B685BF.70903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > If I were to be teaching a language, I'd want: > * block structure > * painless associative arrays/hashes (computers aren't just about > numbers) > * typelessness, for the most part (1 equals "1"; don't make me > have to worry about details) > * flexible and obvious data structure definition/use (I love Perl's > flexibility here, but the syntax would be odious to explain) > * simple graphics capabilities (maybe I'm showing my age here, but > the ability to draw stuff without having to worry about OS > dependencies would be a big help; people like pretty pictures) > * copious and sensible debugging/error messages. SWI Prolog + parser/lexer library + Tk bindings ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 14:39:56 2005 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:39:56 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> <43B685BF.70903@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <43B6983C.2@sympatico.ca> Peter wrote: > SWI Prolog + parser/lexer library + Tk bindings ? I didn't think it was possible to have a nastier syntax than my imagined Perl/GFA Basic/PostScript sort-of hybrid, but Prolog takes the cake. It doesn't look like any other programming language. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 15:05:36 2005 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:05:36 +0200 (IST) Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: <43B6983C.2-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> <43B685BF.70903@sympatico.ca> <43B6983C.2@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Peter wrote: > >> SWI Prolog + parser/lexer library + Tk bindings ? > > I didn't think it was possible to have a nastier syntax than my imagined > Perl/GFA Basic/PostScript sort-of hybrid, but Prolog takes the cake. It > doesn't look like any other programming language. It looks like Horn clauses. Or like C-notation lambda expressions with ':-', ',', '.' and ';' replacing a lot of parentheses. Or like plain math function descriptions. Which are more or less the same thing. Be f(x) = {x for x>=0, -x for x<0 }. Except the functions can be symbolic. neighbors(A,B,[L]) = { ... }. Writing a simple parser that parses a problem setup as above into valid Prolog is failry easy and could be a part of the default library. More importantly Prolog can explain what it is doing while running. With a simple filter to reduce the verbosity of a trace or explain it should be very helpful. I don't think that this is a crazy idea. According to links posted on this list yesterday, using the highest level available language is the best idea. Prolog is certainly high level. For non-symbolic calculus only maybe Matlab or Scilab could be considered. If the goal is to teach problem setup and solving, then high level language is good. If the goal is to grind and drill good typing habits, assembly looks great imho, followed by FORRTAN (66) and COBOL probably. If this is an intro course to prepare for a real CS degree then a subset of C++ or something like it should be taught imho, simply because that is the mainstream now. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 19:49:45 2005 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:49:45 -0500 Subject: ActionScript as a teaching language In-Reply-To: References: <43B3B5A5.110.3056FE7@localhost> <20051229183730.GA2584@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20051231194945.GA3021@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 11:33:33PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > On 12/29/05, William Park wrote: > > How about Python? It has "OOP" stuff, but it can be taught as > > procedural to start. > > Ruby would also be a pretty good choice, with the difference that it > is "inherently OOP." > > > In fact, for Grade 11, even Awk is sufficient. Awk syntax is like > > C, so you can teach C very easily afterwards. > > Having associative arrays and regular expressions in the "base > language" would make C a pretty big step down from Awk. In any case, > Awk is only marginally less "dead" than Latin; I don't think too many > Grade 11 classes will be using it. If you don't plan to introduce C later on, then Awk would be meaningless. Though, I'm not sure, because I learned C first. -- William Park , Toronto, Canada ThinFlash: Linux thin-client on USB key (flash) drive http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/thinflash.html BashDiff: Super Bash shell http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 20:37:21 2005 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:37:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Summary of this years events in your (Linux/Computer) life Message-ID: <43B6EC01.1030902@alteeve.com> Hi all, I finally have the first day to do nothing in a loooong time and I am bored (and loving it!). So I decided to see if anyone is interested in sharing any big accomplishments they had this year, Linux/Computer/Programming wise. :) - My big event was finally releasing a working version of my backup program. :) next? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 21:02:39 2005 From: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Tony Abou-Assaleh) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:02:39 -0400 (AST) Subject: OT: Summary of this years events in your (Linux/Computer) life In-Reply-To: <43B6EC01.1030902-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <43B6EC01.1030902@alteeve.com> Message-ID: I got Ubuntu server working last night with software raid on SATA HDD. It took me 5 hours. I did what I believe to be the same thing 4 times (full install) before it finally worked. Next? TAA ----------------------------------------------------- Tony Abou-Assaleh Lecturer, Computer Science Department Brock University, St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2S 3A1 Office: MC J215 Tel: +1(905)688-5550 ext. 5243 Fax: +1(905)688-3255 Email: taa-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org WWW: http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~taa/ ----------------------[THE END]---------------------- On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I finally have the first day to do nothing in a loooong time and I am > bored (and loving it!). So I decided to see if anyone is interested in > sharing any big accomplishments they had this year, > Linux/Computer/Programming wise. :) > > - My big event was finally releasing a working version of my backup > program. :) > > next? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From saliola-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 21:12:59 2005 From: saliola-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Franco Saliola) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:12:59 -0500 Subject: touch screen woes: penmount / aquapad Message-ID: Hello. I'm working on a little project over the holidays. And I need some help. :-) I recently got me hands on an aquapad. It is a tablet PC. See [1], [2], [3], [4] for more information. It came with Windows CE installed, and with a Midori linux installation on an accompanying CompactFlash card (it can boot from the CF card slot). I'm trying to install Debian 3.1 on this machine, but I can't get the touch screen working. The touch screen is apparantly a PenMount DMC9000 which has linux drivers, but I followed the provided instructions and get no action. First questions: Does anyone have any experience with touch screens under linux? Does anyone have one of these? One of the problems I am having is identifying the device from within Debian. The documentation with the drivers suggest that the device should connect to ttyS0 or ttyS1. But when I do 'cat /dev/ttyS0' and touch the screen, I get no action. When I do the same with ttyS1 I get a complaint about a busy device or resource. So my third question is: how does one find how a device is interacting with the system? Some things to note: The touchscreen does work. It works with the Windows CE installation (under which I can't get wireless working; plus it's not linux). It also works with the Midori linux installation. But just barely. The driver that is being used there is a patched version of mk712, along with a patched version of X, a patched kernel and some software to translate screen presses to X events. I compiled a 2.6 kernel with mk712 support enabled. I think the device is recognized by the machine. I get "0x260 at IRQ 10" during the boot message. But a corresponding entry under /dev isn't created. I grabbed the major and minor device numbers from the kernel documentation and mknod'd /dev/tscreen, but it doesn't correspond to a device apparently since 'cat /dev/tscreen' complains. If you've read this far, I thank you. And please send me any comments you have as I might have overlooked (or most likely, don't know) something trivial. Franco [1] http://www.fic.com.tw/product/mobile/aquapad [2] http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2255681925.html [3] http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad [4] http://www.transmetazone.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=958 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 23:26:28 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:26:28 -0500 Subject: touch screen woes: penmount / aquapad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1.) Don't use cat, use od instead. 2.) touch screens are a pain in the ass. 3.) Does the machine have a BIOS? On the machines that I've dealt with the bios let you set all sorts of interesting things. Here are Leah's notes on the one we used: https://heinous.org/wiki/Javelin_Touch_Screen_Linux Good luck! -Joseph- On 12/31/05, Franco Saliola wrote: > Hello. > > I'm working on a little project over the holidays. And I need some help. :-) > > I recently got me hands on an aquapad. It is a tablet PC. See [1], > [2], [3], [4] for more information. It came with Windows CE installed, > and with a Midori linux installation on an accompanying CompactFlash > card (it can boot from the CF card slot). > > I'm trying to install Debian 3.1 on this machine, but I can't get the > touch screen working. The touch screen is apparantly a PenMount > DMC9000 which has linux drivers, but I followed the provided > instructions and get no action. > > First questions: Does anyone have any experience with touch screens > under linux? Does anyone have one of these? > > One of the problems I am having is identifying the device from within > Debian. The documentation with the drivers suggest that the device > should connect to ttyS0 or ttyS1. But when I do 'cat /dev/ttyS0' and > touch the screen, I get no action. When I do the same with ttyS1 I get > a complaint about a busy device or resource. > > So my third question is: how does one find how a device is interacting > with the system? > > Some things to note: The touchscreen does work. It works with the > Windows CE installation (under which I can't get wireless working; > plus it's not linux). It also works with the Midori linux > installation. But just barely. The driver that is being used there is > a patched version of mk712, along with a patched version of X, a > patched kernel and some software to translate screen presses to X > events. > > I compiled a 2.6 kernel with mk712 support enabled. I think the device > is recognized by the machine. I get "0x260 at IRQ 10" during the boot > message. But a corresponding entry under /dev isn't created. I grabbed > the major and minor device numbers from the kernel documentation and > mknod'd /dev/tscreen, but it doesn't correspond to a device apparently > since 'cat /dev/tscreen' complains. > > If you've read this far, I thank you. And please send me any comments > you have as I might have overlooked (or most likely, don't know) > something trivial. > > Franco > > [1] http://www.fic.com.tw/product/mobile/aquapad > [2] http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2255681925.html > [3] http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad > [4] http://www.transmetazone.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=958 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 23:27:20 2005 From: josephkubik-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Joseph Kubik) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:27:20 -0500 Subject: touch screen woes: penmount / aquapad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and one other thought. Go into winCE and look at the device settings. Copy as many of them as you think you can. -Joseph- On 12/31/05, Joseph Kubik wrote: > 1.) Don't use cat, use od instead. > 2.) touch screens are a pain in the ass. > 3.) Does the machine have a BIOS? On the machines that I've dealt with > the bios let you set all sorts of interesting things. > Here are Leah's notes on the one we used: > https://heinous.org/wiki/Javelin_Touch_Screen_Linux > > Good luck! > -Joseph- > On 12/31/05, Franco Saliola wrote: > > Hello. > > > > I'm working on a little project over the holidays. And I need some help. :-) > > > > I recently got me hands on an aquapad. It is a tablet PC. See [1], > > [2], [3], [4] for more information. It came with Windows CE installed, > > and with a Midori linux installation on an accompanying CompactFlash > > card (it can boot from the CF card slot). > > > > I'm trying to install Debian 3.1 on this machine, but I can't get the > > touch screen working. The touch screen is apparantly a PenMount > > DMC9000 which has linux drivers, but I followed the provided > > instructions and get no action. > > > > First questions: Does anyone have any experience with touch screens > > under linux? Does anyone have one of these? > > > > One of the problems I am having is identifying the device from within > > Debian. The documentation with the drivers suggest that the device > > should connect to ttyS0 or ttyS1. But when I do 'cat /dev/ttyS0' and > > touch the screen, I get no action. When I do the same with ttyS1 I get > > a complaint about a busy device or resource. > > > > So my third question is: how does one find how a device is interacting > > with the system? > > > > Some things to note: The touchscreen does work. It works with the > > Windows CE installation (under which I can't get wireless working; > > plus it's not linux). It also works with the Midori linux > > installation. But just barely. The driver that is being used there is > > a patched version of mk712, along with a patched version of X, a > > patched kernel and some software to translate screen presses to X > > events. > > > > I compiled a 2.6 kernel with mk712 support enabled. I think the device > > is recognized by the machine. I get "0x260 at IRQ 10" during the boot > > message. But a corresponding entry under /dev isn't created. I grabbed > > the major and minor device numbers from the kernel documentation and > > mknod'd /dev/tscreen, but it doesn't correspond to a device apparently > > since 'cat /dev/tscreen' complains. > > > > If you've read this far, I thank you. And please send me any comments > > you have as I might have overlooked (or most likely, don't know) > > something trivial. > > > > Franco > > > > [1] http://www.fic.com.tw/product/mobile/aquapad > > [2] http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2255681925.html > > [3] http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad > > [4] http://www.transmetazone.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=958 > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml