Appeal - was: Libranet 3.0 out

Matt Cahill m-cahill-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org
Thu Apr 21 17:44:04 UTC 2005


  Before this descends further off-topic, may I ask that the next
  responder change the subject, as the original post (mine) was about
  the release of Libranet 3.0. Not Gentoo. Not Ubuntu. Not 'distro A'
  being somewhat better than 'distro B'.

  Thanks,

  Matt
  

Thursday, April 21, 2005, 1:33:36 PM, you wrote:

LS> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 05:50:19PM +0000, Jason Shein wrote:
>> I think this will sum it up quite well. I am Pro-Debian AND Pro-Gentoo. Each
>> has it's time and place. Gentoo is definitely my preferred server environment
>> and Debian ( unstable ) for desktop use. For server use there are numerous
>> specialty programs that are not available for debian. 
>> 
>> Fine. Install from source you say. No problem. 

LS> No I don't ever say that.  I say make a .deb if you want to install a
LS> program.  Then place it in your personaly archive of packages for easy
LS> install and update for all yoru systems.

>> But wait..  
>> 
>> Deploy this kind of server to your clients / friends. Try and keep on top of
>> security updates. Mailing lists, visiting the software developers web site. A
>> real pain and a potential security nightmare if you do not keep on top of it.
>> Try selling / Deploying 30 servers, each customized for that particular
>> purpose with Debian and custom packages. Either you spend you days looking
>> for updates "just to be safe" or find a better method.

LS> That's why I will build custom debian packages in my own archive and
LS> have all the machiens I maintain use packages from there.  I have run 30
LS> servers with Debian, and oh man was that ever a joy (I would hate to
LS> have used anything else for it).

>> Enter Gentoo - The better method
>> 
>> Benefits of Gentoo:
>> 
>> -Everything is compiled from source

LS> Which violates my first principle of using computers: Don't ever do
LS> something more than once when it can be avoided.  That means write
LS> scripts, and let upstream compile it for you when possible.  If upstream
LS> compiles it once everyone gets the result saving time anc cpu cycles and
LS> work for everyone.  Overall net saving for the free time of computer
LS> users on the planet.  Might as well use that spare time doing something
LS> productive like improving programs instead of doing the same old compile
LS> everyone else has already done.

>> -You're in control

LS> Hmm, never felt not in control with Debian.

>> -Powerful ports-based package manager

LS> apt-get/dpkg is quite powerful.

>> -Easy package format

LS> I find .deb's very easy.

>> -Centralized internet repository of packages

LS> Have you seen how many mirrors debian has?

>> -Intelligent and dependency-based init scripts

LS> Now that one you get bonus points for.  Debian uses sysv (which is far
LS> superior to the crap in BSD and any version of slackware I have ever
LS> used) but certainly not the best system one could have.

>> Everything is compiled from source

LS> Which I consider a major flaw as it violates first principle above.

>> -Optimized for your hardware

LS> Oh sure, big deal.  Show me a measureable improvement in running with
LS> compiler optimizations for a specific cpu other than the kernel.  i486
LS> is already quite fast on most systems (and glibc doesn't permit 386
LS> optimization anymore).  pgcc died out for a reason.  It made no real
LS> diffence and broke a lot of code since the cpu optimizer was very buggy.

>> -Packages are built from the original sources

LS> And debian uses original source + patches to make packages install
LS> consistently.

>> -Fast package updates when new version appear

LS> Debian unstable is usually rather fast, but not always.  That's a
LS> problem of the maintainer, not the distribution.  If no one adds the new
LS> version to gentoo, how do you get it (besides doing it manually, and
LS> then you aren't really taking much advantage of the distribution
LS> anyway).

>> -Can be turned into binary packages during or after package installation
>> 
>> You're in control
>> 
>> -Minimal installation

LS> Debian base install is pretty small.

>> -No services are activated by default

LS> Seems true of any well designed distribution.

>> -No configuration is done automatically

LS> Sounds like a flaw rather than a feature.  Debian asks me questions
LS> about how to configure thigns, and provides sane defaults that I can
LS> then change if I want to.  I like things to be close to working when I
LS> install them.

>> -Default configurations are available but have to be  performed explicitly
>> -Your configurations are protected and will never be overwritten

LS> Debian asks if you want to replace a config file.  Default is to not
LS> replace.

>> Powerful package manager
>> 
>> -Packages are first installed in a staging directory, are only then merged
>>  into your live system
>> -Performs installations in a protecting sandbox
>> -Safe library updates on a running system
>> -Resolves dependencies automatically
>> -Keeps you informed about new updates
>> -Updates your repository from the internet
>> -Allows you to safely remove outdated packages
>> -Can create and use binary packages
>> -Low-level (developer) tool : ebuild
>> -High-level (user) tool : emerge
>> -System-wide configuration of your usage preferences (use-flags)
>> -Virtual packages

LS> Overall I see nothing apt-get doesn't seem to handle.

>> Easy package format
>> 
>> -Closely mimics the bash commands you'd execute to install manually
>> -Clearly separated installation phases : unpack, compile, install, merge
>> -Pre and post actions for each installation phase
>> -Additional configuration is done through the definition of variables :
>>  description, homepage, download url, dependencies, binary compatibility

LS> Building from source is for the exception not the rule.  Sounds like the
LS> same things I would have to do in a debian/rules file to build a .deb

>> Centralized internet repository of packages
>> 
>> -Immediate access to new versions

LS> As soon as someone adds the new version to the repository.

>> -Intuitive synchronization of your local package tree
>> -Direct access by developers to the same repository
>> 
>> Intelligent and dependency-based init scripts
>> 
>> -Not numbered
>> -Scripts use or need each-other
>> -Stopping a service auto-stops all services that need it
>> -Services can be paused (stop function in other distributions)
>> -Services can't be started or stopped multiple times
>> -Easy tool to manage services

LS> This so far is the only feature that sounds like a great one.

LS> Lennart Sorensen



-- 

Matt Cahill
                      m dash cahill at rogers dot com


"It is important to have this idea in one's mind, because otherwise
 one fails to grasp the whole spirit of modern Science-Philosophy.
 It does not aim at Truth; [...] it aims at maximum convenience."
 - A. Crowley

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