Officially OT -> Re:My fiscal responcibility...

Zbigniew Koziol zkoziol-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
Mon May 24 19:43:11 UTC 2004


James Knott:

> J. Schaap wrote:
> >>"Mnay people have such beliefs, simply because they've been brainwashed
> >
> > all their lives with such things."<
> >
> > Judging you by your own standards:
> >
> > Many people have such *unbeliefs*, simply because they've been
> > brainwashed all their lives with such things.
>
> OK, where are the proofs that the Bible is not simply a collection of
> fiction?  With science, the goal is to continually refine the knowledge,
> not simply accept "that's the way it is", unlike religion, where you're
> supposed to accept, without question.

What do you mean by fiction? The Bible is not a fiction in at least that 
sense that it has been written by people. As such it does reflect their 
believes, observations, ideas, etc. There is of course a question to which 
extend some facts described in the Bible are based on real events.

And it is a deep misundarstanding to think that religion imposed some 
believes without giving the people oportunity to question them. In some 
religions yes, but to certain extend only. In Christianity perhaps also, in 
the history, that happened often. But at the same time Christianity has been 
given impetus to the development of various sciences. 

> One of the principal causes of the dark ages, was the imposition of
> ignorance, by the church. 

Do not quite agree. Saint Thomas, St Augustinus, and many, many others are 
counterexamples. Or take Copernicus (know a bit more about him because he was
Polish, like me). How many of you on this list knows that Copernicus' primary 
"job" was to work for Church? He held highest positions in the Church 
hierarchy through his entire adult life (besides, it was his uncle, a bishop, 
who took care of his education). At the same time he wrote economical 
treaties, studied stars movement, organized military defence of several 
cities against Teutonics, held the title of medical doctor, wrote poetry, 
traveled extensively, organized university education, and prepared first maps 
of the delta of Vistula. Have however a look to this picture, unfortunately 
not broadly published neither in the past in communist Poland nor in, sorry 
to say this, mostly anti-religious media in the West):

	http://www.iyp.org/zBych/iPolonia/kopernik-en.html

> Ever wonder why only the Christian world was
> afflicted by that great loss of knowledge?  Ever wonder why the Arab
> world flourished back in those days

This is probably a myth rather. The Arab world did contribute to the 
development of sciences significantly but I would not exagarate the 
importance of that contribution.

> The teachings of the church were that the earth was the
> center of the universe.  

Others commented on this already.

> Those falacies and others have fallen, simply
> because people such as Galeleo, Coperinicus and others were willing to
> stand up to what religion taught as being correct.

Neither Galileo nor Copernicus acted against the religion. 

> Then we get to religious frauds, such as the Shroud of Turin, which for
> centuries was held as an article of faith, by the Catholic church, only
> to be shown to be the fraud that it was, 

Well, please give references. I did read that contrary, there is no 
conclusive proove that it was a fraud. I am personally not convinced that it 
was not a fraud. But I see neither a strong reason to think that it was.

> The history of religion is full of such deception.  Perhaps
> that's because it's entire foundation is fraudulent.

Entire human history has been falsified many times. Someone, for instance, 
mentioned in this subject Inquisiton. But did that person thought about his 
source of knowledge about Inquisiton? Was he aware that history is being 
falsified even now? In the era when ideas are shaped by Hollywood and mass 
media it is not difficult to achieve a deep manipulation of history. How many 
of you knows that Inquisition was the first institution in Christian 
civilization that gaved the suspected the right to defend himself? And the 
numbers of victims of Inquisition is being often greatly exagarated. And, 
just to finish, how many of you knows the it was the protestant world, not 
catholic, where most victims occured? But Catholics rather are blamed.

zb.
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