GUI

Peter L. Peres plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org
Sun Nov 30 21:22:10 UTC 2003


On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Anton Markov wrote:

> | The illegality consists in price dumping conditioned on non-competition.
> | The prices of M$ products vary such that they undercut the competition,
> | regardless of any losses they may incur. The prices are high when there is
> | no competition, and undercut the competition whenever there is any. Since
> | the products are mostly software in theory they can give them away for
> | free. But they don't do that. They just make them cheap enough that the
> | competition has no bread to eat, even if in theory this causes them to
> | lose money.
> It's non of your business whether Microsoft makes or looses money.
> Until you build your own multi-billion dollar empire, you have no right
> to criticize Bill Gate's business plan.  Criticizing those more
> successful then ourselves is a sign of laziness and communism.
>
> And there is no known law in North America (I don't want to hear about
> some socialist country in Europe) that says it is illegal to make your
> competition loose money.  That's the whole point of competition - some
> win, some loose.

I don't care if or how anybody makes money as long as they do not break
the laws, and do not cause massive upheaval elsewhere. In NA price dumping
is illegal. Right NOW (this week or the last one) the US was passing laws
to impose duties on imports from China, on TVs I think.  In NA laws are,
have been, and will be passed, which impose duties and quotas on imports
from other countries, to prevent 'price dumping' and 'trade imbalance'. If
they don't care about who makes money how and who is dumping prices, then
why do they pass these laws, please ? Before you judge others clarify what
exactly you are defining and defending please.

> | Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products.  This
> | breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the civilized
> | world as I know it.
> You mean the half of the world that lives under a communist/socialist
> regime where everyone is essentially on welfare letting their life be
> run by beurocrats?

That is not the way it works. It's more like the black market used to
feed, employ and clothe about 60% of the population. Now that it's no
longer called black, but free, it employs, feeds, and clothes 80%. The
poor sods who zealously eliminated the 'black market' entirely are
starving now.

> You want pricing policy?  The USSR had plenty of that.  In 1919-1921
> that led to a famine that cost nearly two million lives.  And this
> happened again, and again, and again.

Yep. See my response to the first pararagraph. Your free trade champion is
passing anti-free trade laws right now, at this moment, and is p*-ing off
China. It does this and has been doing this with steel, cars, electronics,
oil, food and a couple more things I forget now, with more countries than
you can shake a stick at, since at least the 1960's on a big scale. And it
will keep doing this. I don't see a problem with it, there are far worse
things out there, but I put a stop at hypochrysy. They are not hiding that
they are doing it. Why are you ignoring it ? Because it is convenient in
this discussion ?

> | Worse again, after the competition folds, the prices
> | double or triple.  This is why price dumping is illegal. It can put a
> | competitor with deep pockets (or with artificially very cheap labor)
> Where did those deep pockets come from.  Maybe they where created before
> the company becomes a monopoly through legal practices?  How many people
> found employment and how many sub-contractors and suppliers
> (construction firms, hardware manufacturers, office supplies, ...)
> received business while these "deep pockets" where created?
>
> Cheap labor?  I think that it is up to every individual to decide how
> much they want to work for.

Yes, that's the point. A certain very populous country offers their
citizens anything they want, as long as it's not money or wealth or
freedom, the alternative being a hole in the head of flattening under tank
threads, or permanent employment in a stone quarry where they get to
disassemble granite mountains using worn-out teaspoons.

It just so happens that the wages are extremely low and stay that way
there, so their products are extremely cheap and undermining everyone
else's prices, where wages are not so low. Your favorite free trade
champion is passing laws against this *price dumping* *NOW*. Incidentally
they call it 'trade deficit'. Funny, maybe they can't afford to buy US
products for some reason. I wonder why. Incidentally I greatly admire that
populous country's people and its industriousness and inventivity. My
problem is with their present form of government, and with the way their
price dumping affects local industry (including mine) *here*, not in NA.
And *we* do *not* pass laws for protectionist duties in despite of
everyone here going to the dogs.

Also why is there no 'trade imbalance' with the second most populous
country in the world ? The third ? The fourth ? Maybe because market
forces work and keep this 'trade balance' somewhat balanced ? As in,
people make money and spend it on products and services in a commesurate
way ?

> | in
> | the monopolist position within a few years, while causing countless
> | businesses to fold and loss of tax income from such businesses plus
> | unemployment that cannot be sustained (for lack of a tax base) on a
> | massive scale.
> | ...
> The whole idea of sustaining unemployment through tax money, and the
> very idea of taxes is flawed.  But lets not get into that.

Sorry, let's. In any functioning capitalist economy a certain percentage
of the workforce will be unemployed, by will or otherwise. Some of them
will compete for existing and new jobs. Unemployment 'benefits' (whoever
made that word up ?!) are a form of insurance that is paid for in small
installments by taxes and returns in small gobs as 'benefits' when needed.
It prevents a lot of individuals from begging on street corners while
looking for something else. The fact that taxes are misused a lot for a
lot of things has nothing to do with this. I would prefer to have a
private (tax free!) fund where I can put money to be used in case I will
be unemployed. This is not an available option here. After all, you don't
need a pension fund do you ? So why have one (fyi I haven't got one) ? And
why is it taxed ?!!

> | Fri in most civilized places there are solid rules about
> | published prices and the obligation of companies to stand by them. This
> | means *both* upwards *and* downwards adjustments are not allowed (within
> | reasonable limits) once the prices are published.
> Can you name these "civilized" places?

The UK for example, and most of Europe. And here (to a lesser extent - we
are more like America). F.ex. shops are obliged by law to put the price of
goods on all displayed goods. Catalogs must contain prices, etc, and the
prices are binding. They can rebate up to a point and they can make it
more expensive up to a point, without changing the displayed prices, but
anything beyond that done long enough will land them in claims court
(ianal) and in the newspapers.

F.ex. customers give HP printers a wide berth since the ink price thing.
HP have changed their pricing and they are now in line with others, but
that scandal stuck for a while. They make good printers, but the scandal
stuck and must have stung their sales.

In the UK there are several smaller scandals wrt. f.ex. computer firms
publishing prices for certain systems with certain components and then
sending something else instead, several times a week. They can end up in
court too. See (plenty of) articles in PC Magazine UK and elsewhere.

The price:  @call kind of pricing where you get charged by the length of
your nose and the price of your shoes and the make of your watch and car
may be very popular in your parts, but it is not here (not that businesses
aren't doing it - it's just that there is some form of balance). And
people prefer to do business with firms where they can compare prices and
see up front what they get. It's a free market thing, you see ? Fair
competition and all that.

> | ...
> | Remember taxes are percentual and such 'schemes' can be considered
> | tax evasion attempts, besides being price dumping. The taxation shifts
> | from retail taxation to corporate income taxation, which saves the company
> | a bundle.
> Are you supporting the idea of taxes?  What has this country come to?

Which country ? I pay probably 50% more taxes than you and I don't like it
at all, but not to the point where I'd stop doing it entirely (although I
am tempted badly every time I read a newspaper or listen to the news).

> | Several attempts to do such things can be seen with ice cream brands,
> | packaged food brands in supermarkets etc. They only work in places where
> | there are totalitarian state monopolies or 19th century-style 'free
> | exchange' capitalism with huge monopolists eliminating competition from
> | the market and fixing prices at will. Most are illegal when the price
> | dumping item enters the equation. Ianal.
>
> "Free exchange" and "totalitarian state monopolies" are complete
> opposites. The fact is that in totalitarian state monopolies if you
> don't buy the government's product, someone comes to your door with a
> gun.  In this country it's usually the people who point guns at the
> suppliers.

Free exchange in the 19th century monopolist capital style and government
monopolies are one and the same thing. You don't believe that Lenin & Co
invented that system, do you ? They used and adapted well known things.
Company town ? Company shops ? Company men ? Exclusive rights to a
continent or an island ? Slavery ? Rings a bell ? They skipped the great
depression because they did not have a stock market. They had some other
home-made depressions instead, managed to predate and outnumber Hitler
(this ends the thread) in killings and deportations, and developed the
Company Town (Country) idea to an unprecedented scale.

Sorry for the long post,

Peter
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