Looking for Advice

[Madison Kelly]

Stan,

   Of all the very helpful replies so far, this one is probably the most 
helpful. If for no other reason than a justification of what I have been 
doing all along, except you put it much more artfully, and well, 
articulated it at all. What I mean is, I think this is what I have been 
trying to do but I was letting myself get down about having such a hard 
time. Anyway, with this in mind I am going to go over my resume again 
and change some of the wording.

   Hey, I'm Irish after all. I'm not about to give up now. Your advice 
is great!

Madison

Stan Witkowski wrote:
> At 03:52 PM 11/27/03 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> I have a question that I am hoping someone here has worked through.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a long time ago! <grin>
> I've worked in the computer field in Toronto for over 30 years.
> I've had to face questions like these many times:
>  "why do you want to work here when you've run your own business?"
>      and
>  "what guarantee do I have that you won't leave to run your business?"
>      and
>  "so how do you know all of this?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> how do you get a job when you are self taught?
> 
> 
> 
> You get a job by not making an issue of being self taught.
> You don't go out of your way to mention what colour your hair is,
> so treat that the same way.
> 
> Since you've gone to the trouble of asking the question, it is likely
> of more concern to you than others.
> Keep in mind that there are MANY people out there that have NO CLUE
> how to hire technical people, and hence will insist on formal
> bits of paper in order to:
>      a) feel good about you
>      b) cover their ass with their management
>      c) "reduce their risk".
> 
> There is nothing you can do to change their minds, so avoid or ignore them.
> 
> 
> Note: I use the term "reduce their risk" in quotes akin to:
>           "At the convent we needed someone 100% trustworthy and
>            who would not take advantage of us because we had all of
>            this money but didn't know what to do with it so we figured
>            that a lawyer would be the best bet. We checked his papers
>            carefully (even a QC!), and were pleased when he told us
>            that a lawyer is also an Officer of the Court.
>            He's now awfully hard to reach in Brazil, though."
>            Sister Mary Rose
> 
> 
> Instead, itemize what you can do *AND* how you can apply it in ways
> that can benefit the person or company you are applying to.
> 
> 
> In cover letters, always point out:
> - how you can contribute to that company's profit
>   through your skill set
> - you are keenly able to train yourself and others
>   which will reduce or eliminate training costs
> - you have been running your own business and hence are
>   familiar with cost control measures and have a business positive
>   outlook - I.E. you are not just a nose-to-the-keyboard techie
> - you have a wide circle of technically knowledgeable friends
>       [ Aside: they just happen to be in this mailing list -Stan.]
>   that you can consult with (at NO charge to your employer)
>   to brainstorm additional solutions
> 
> 
> 
>> The only place I have
>> worked in the past outside of my own company was, strangly enough,
>> teaching evening courses at George Brown :).
> 
> 
> 
> OK, that counts as outside experience.
> SOMEONE had to decide that you had the knowledge and experience to be
> let loose on the students, didn't they?
> 
> (It's even better if George Brown approached you!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when
>> you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a
>> given company to even respond to your resume?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't say:
>    "I fixed John Brown's computer. He paid me. We never saw each other 
> again."
> 
> Do Say:
>    "It was a one-time expense and by optimizing his computer resources
>     I saved John Brown's business!"
> 
> 
> Don't say:
>    "I have a work table with a computer."
> 
> Do say:
>    "I've spared no expense in creating my own, fully networked,
>     24 hour, computer lab in my office!"
>    "I have equipment and resource sharing agreements in place
>     with other business associates. This saves whomever I work for
>     time and money because I am able to leverage other people's
>     equipment and knowledge."
> 
> 
> [ OK, so perhaps the 24 hour part is because you like running seti-/c8Vce1DTA4 at public.gmane.org
>   If so, DON'T MENTION IT! ]
> 
> 
> On the "how do we know you will stay?" matter: (true story):
> In 1983 I had reached the FINAL interview, FINAL question stage
> for a downtown Toronto trust company for a job that was to become
> (as my business card later said) "Senior Technical Analyst"
> responsible for all software planning and installation for
> a new IBM mainframe that the trust company was about to install.
> It also meant building a whole computer room, tons of equipment, etc.
> There was a lot riding on this because it was the company's first
> *IBM* mainframe, and it was expensive.
> I was expected to do all of the initial work, and then, upon
> installation, stay and be chief system administrator.
> 
> The final interviewer (I think he was at (VP - 1) level)
> kept harping on my not leaving any time soon if they hired me.
> Curiously, he had refused any kind of contract, indicating they
> were for VP and above levels(!!!).
> The final half dozen questions varied in form only, but they
> were all designed to ask me if I was going to leave soon.
> [What I didn't know, because I had never run into it before
>  anywhere else, is that this company had had various bad experiences
>  with people doing just that. The record was held by a man
>  just starting on Monday morning who, at the 10:30am break, went
>  "out to the washroom" and never came back. The (record-1) was a
>  man who, on his first day(Monday), went out to lunch and
>  never came back. I think that (record-2) was one full day.
>  None of these people were later reported missing or were
>  abducted by aliens, etc. They just quit while on their feet! <grin>
> ]
> 
> 
> So, in the really final question he asked,
>   "But what GUARANTEE do we have?"
> 
> It was that special moment - I felt that everything depended
> on that one answer. By then I had grown frustrated and irritated
> with the whole process - the company was making no promises to
> me, but wanted me to make promises to them.
> I looked around his office, and out the window to the street below.
> 
> It just popped out.
> 
> "See that street...", I said. "A few minutes after this interview
>  I will be crossing it. If before I do, God suddenly appears to me
>  and GUARANTEES that I will be able to do so safely, then I'll
>  instantly come back up here and give you the same guarantee."
> 
> 
> There was a long pause.
>             ****
> 
> We just sat there looking at each other.
> 
> It could have gone either way!
> 
> A moment later he laughed and asked me if I could start on Monday.
> 
> [The installation came in early and under budget. For many
>  long hours of extra work I got a letter of commendation and a thank you.
>  That was it.]
> 
> 
> My point:
> Sometimes there is NOTHING you can say to tell them what they
> want to hear - it's the luck of the draw.
> Look at the newsgroup    tor.jobs
> and various job web sites.
> You'll see people with all kinds of paperwork and backgrounds,
> even MBAs, looking for work.
> 
> Finally:
> In my experience, who you know matters a LOT more than what you know.
> Given a choice between learning some new tech stuff or
> schmoozing with (gasp) lawyers, I'd take the lawyers any day.
> 
> I know this NOW - I just wish I had known it 20 - 30 years ago! <grin>
> 
> 
> Stan.
> 
> -- 
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